Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[panog]

@Hugh Smitham

As a business, it may come a point where the realization that a particular 
segment of your customer pool does not seem to fit your business plan anymore 
is evident. At that juncture a business has a decision to make. They could 
either adapt their business plan  to engulf the changes and possibly loose a 
part of their unique identity or concentrate more on retaining the customer 
base that fits with their business plan and identity better. From this 
prospective then, yes, "fire" the customer that no longer fits your business 
plan. They are not as useful to you anyway because they are not a reliable 
source of revenue under your operating platform.

As a customer, we "fire" businesses all the time by choosing where to shop. 

As I said before, it works both ways. What is different is which side of the 
counter you happen to be at.


Pano G.
Wash. DC

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Richard Rios]

There's been a good bit said. So I'll just throw in my .02. I try to support my 
LBS whenever possible. But when I do I go there with the mindset of I am paying 
for service and dont really sweat the price. If the service isn't there then 
why would I pay a higher price? And I dont. I do and don't like the really low 
ball blow out prices. I like them because they can be nice when you find them 
and it's something useful. But then they bum me out because i know that it 
really kills the price of that item on the second hand market. I recently 
bought a clem for full price and it is worth it! But then I saw Riv had 
discounted it and I thought dang if I ever go to sell, which I don't plan on 
but I never rule out, people will remember that lower price. This happens to me 
occasionally enough because I am in a situation where i kinda have to buy to 
try for better or worse. Unfortunately my experiences with most LBS has been on 
the not that good side of things. Most of the shops in my area cater to the 
racier type folks. so when I ask for "regular" type stuff they don't typically 
stock they don't seem in all that much of a hurry to help. Which sours me in 
general to tryin LBS.This has happened to me at shops even when they do 
specialize in "normal" suff. I took a trip out to one such shop in the Los 
Angeles area about a 75 min drive from where I live to buy a bike. I said yeah 
I'll take it! Order it up... and they gave me some rig a ma roll about needing 
to check stock first and then never got back to me until days later after 
having had promised to get back much sooner. I end ended up buying the bike 
direct and could clearly see the bike was I'm stock online from jump. Not sure 
what that was about but I was bummed because i really wanted to find a great 
new shop to support...b ut the servuce wasn't there :(. I'm not money rich but 
am blessed to have a wife  kid, morgage and all that good stuff. Expensive 
bikes and parts are a luxury for me so I spend to support when I can and save a 
few bucks when possible. I support Rivendell as much as I can because I really 
have learned so much about cycling from Grant. If I hadn't found Riv I'd prolly 
be all hunched over on  some to small frame staring at the ground and missing 
out on so much of what I enjoy about riding a bike. That is worth something to 
me. With that said sometimes I am broker than others and because I am here in 
Cali I get hit with tax plus shipping and the higher price from Riv which just 
makes that voice kick in and say I gotta support my family also and that 
cheaper price becomes to hard to pass up... There shouldnt be any judgemt 
passing or guilt. I think amongst those who participate in this group we are 
all mindful and all just doing the best we can working within the economy we 
have. Stevies looks great by the way! I would love to have a shop like that in 
my neck of the woods. Seems to show good service really does sell. 

Richard

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Hugh Smitham]

I don't subscribe to the customer is always right. The customer may be
misinformed but courtesy is a bastion of a successful business enterprise.
Rivendell has always got that. Haha fire the customer that's rich.

~Hugh




On Feb 16, 2017 3:40 PM, "panog"  wrote:

 The customer is always right until they are not. At that point the best a
business could do is fire that customer. It works both ways.

Pano G.
Wash DC

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[panog]

 The customer is always right until they are not. At that point the best a 
business could do is fire that customer. It works both ways.

Pano G.
Wash DC

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Ryan Fleming]

I suspect you have many repeat (and happy customers) and I expect you will 
even attract a new legion of loyal fans. In fact , may I say, I'm sure of it

Ryan F.  ever since 1997 and probably not done yet

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 5:56:55 PM UTC-6, Grant @ Rivendell 
wrote:
>
> Nobody here keeps score, but for the record...if we had a thousand Patrick 
> Moores, we'd be fat and gorgeous.
>
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Patrick Moore  > wrote:
>
>> One -- I won't say problem, but one factor affecting a decision to buy 
>> from Rivendell or from another online vendor or from a LBS or used or 
>> whatever, is the "style" of merchandise. I'm fortunately at the time of 
>> life and at the period in my bike tastes that I have most of what I want, 
>> and my needs are very, very particular. I have my own likes and dislikes 
>> about bikes, riding style, and cycling clothing, and my only "generic" 
>> needs are almost commodity items -- cables, housing, ferrules, sealants, 
>> lubes, and so forth.
>>
>> Rivendell offers a very distinct "style" of bicycles and clothing and 
>> accessories, and for the most part they are not what I want. I'd happily 
>> order more if the inventory was more to my taste. Also, I'd happily order a 
>> Roadeo, a Hunq (maybe; I'd want to convert it to disc brakes), a Legolas 
>> perhaps a Clem, *if* I had the money, but these would be outlier items, 
>> not the focus of my riding preferences.
>>
>> As for the generic things, I can buy them as cheaply at LBS's and support 
>> local businesses.
>>
>> I suppose my Rivendell-fandom is largely coasting on the 3 customs I've 
>> ordered, and on the wonderful Wooly Warm outer jersey -- ragg knit?--  with 
>> tall button collar, rear pockets, trim but not tight cut -- wonderful over 
>> a base wool LS jersey at temps from, say, 45F down to 35F. If Riv still 
>> offered that vest in the same style, I'd truly weigh it against an Ibex.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 4:09 PM, Evan E. > > wrote:
>>
>>> No matter how often we discuss this topic of right livelihood -- maybe 
>>> once a year? -- I always find it interesting. 
>>>
>>> By and large, I try to buy merchandise from Rivendell and to buy labor 
>>> from my LBS. Once in a while, I'll buy an item from an online merchant, 
>>> particularly if, per Grant's post above, said merchant sounds like an 
>>> actual business with actual staff, and, yes, if it offers a good deal on 
>>> something (such as VP Vice pedals) that Riv and my LBS don't stock.
>>>
>>> I love Rivendell and I love the people there, so I do support them. But 
>>> today all I have in my Riv shopping cart is ferrules and two tubes. I don't 
>>> need the tubes. And I've already loaded up on various parts, books, 
>>> bandannas, and pine tar soap. But come to think of it (duh), maybe I should 
>>> buy a gift certificate to use toward future purchases. That would give Riv 
>>> some cash flow -- an advance of sorts. Right?
>>>
>>> -- 
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>> Other professional writing services.
>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>> *
>> ***
>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
>> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
>> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>
>> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
>> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>>
>> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>>
>> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>>
>>
>> -- 
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>>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Patrick Moore]

And yet Stevie's is thriving, even if on a very small scale. Business has
improved each of the last 5 years or so, and he's expanded twice in that
period, most recently last year. Again, all on a very small scale, but
Steve is thinking of taking the family to Europe this summer.

Why? Friendly service; a friendly neighborhood approach; willingness to
work on anything (4-wheel, 2-person/2 drivetrain quad car? Mopeds? Electric
bikes? Slime the 2 kids' 16" tires? Find a bearing for your baby jogger?);
a focus on "just ride" bikes -- a commuter with 7 gears and battery lights,
fenders, rack, stand for $400? A huge lineup of all types of consignment
bikes; a willingness to order what you want and install it; very good
mechanical services and a knowledge of weird systems. And people come in
and just donate things like the 2 '70s *toute Campy* pro level road bikes.

https://vimeo.com/104867698

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 10:15 PM, iamkeith  wrote:

> ...
>
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/warren-
> buffett-just-dropped-walmart-and-signaled-the-death-of-
> retail-as-we-know-it/ar-AAmWKmg
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Scott Henry]

This is always a fun read everytime it comes up.
I never vote with my wallet.   I let companies vote for my business with
their pricing.

I know what I want and I know what I'm buying, I assume that most on this
list do as well, I don't need to be sold anything.

If I head to a store (of any type)  and they have something I want cheap,
I'll buy it.  Otherwise, why spend more?   I have worked on and off in bike
shops for 25 years.  Here is a secret, most shops don't like ordering
things for customers.   It's out of their routine, it's not what they
already paid for to stock and it's an extra thing to do.   Most shops place
an order weekly, a few will order twice weekly.   But its still a pain to
do the extra steps for a one-off.   Plus, I can order damn near anything
right off of my phone and have it within 2-3 days.   That's pretty darn
convenient, and I am a man of convenience.

I was killing some time waiting for a friend last weekend and I pulled into
a Field and Stream store.  They had a rather nice carry pistol, a Ruger LCP
2, for $350.   A few second on my phone and it turns out Cabela's which is
a few miles away has it for $300.   Where do you think I spent money?
Both are my "local" store.  Both employ "local" people.   One Just does a
better job at cost management, inventory control and cost cutting and
regulation.

The $50 I saved went right into an eBay seller on a pair of Modolo anatomic
brake hoods that were probably $8 back in the 80s.
All the dollars always get spent.   Its just a measure of who gets them.

For the record, the 001 pedals are nice but routinely go for right about
$45 online.
Cheers,
Scott




On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 12:15 AM, iamkeith  wrote:

> Joe, i dont mean to answer for grant, and am not at all certain there's
> any common thread, but thought this news story from today was interesting -
> about warren buffett signaling the "death of retail." Seems that even the
> businesses that once killed the other businesses are struggling to stay
> alive:
>
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/warren-
> buffett-just-dropped-walmart-and-signaled-the-death-of-
> retail-as-we-know-it/ar-AAmWKmg
>
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>

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[iamkeith]

Joe, i dont mean to answer for grant, and am not at all certain there's any 
common thread, but thought this news story from today was interesting - about 
warren buffett signaling the "death of retail." Seems that even the businesses 
that once killed the other businesses are struggling to stay alive:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/warren-buffett-just-dropped-walmart-and-signaled-the-death-of-retail-as-we-know-it/ar-AAmWKmg

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Hugh Smitham]

Yes Bill you did offer an explanation, jerk, 19 people before me asking the
same question or derivation of.  You did say no one should buy from
anywhere that's rude to you. You did say you didn't approve. Then you
offered how I may have asked the question with in your opinion perhaps a
better more agreeable outcome.

However this is like saying I don't mean to offend you but...

My question back to you, Hugh, is: if you wanted to buy the White
Industries hub from them, regardless of price, why did you ask for the
price?  Why didn't you say: "Hi, I'm Hugh.  I need a White Industries MI5
rear hub.

Answered this but to further clarify I'm not familiar with the White
Industries hub pricing. This was my first foray into buying a high end hub.

When I said "I don't get it" means I'm incredulous how a business keeps
their doors open with poor customer relations. I understand that retailers
get exasperated by the current pressures of online sales but that's the new
model. Similar to print news papers being disrupted by online news
organizations. I appreciate brick and mortar stores of all stripes because
I appreciate them and their service, if they're rude I don't patronage
their establishment.

I don't need you to spell it out for me.

I vote every day with my wallet.

And Bill I accept your apology.

~Hugh


On Feb 15, 2017 5:41 PM, "Bill Lindsay"  wrote:

Hugh

I don't know why both you and Christopher Murray seem to think that I
approve with how you were mistreated at your bike shop.  I said I
disapprove of how you were treated.  I said it was unfair to you.  I don't
think anyone should buy anything anywhere where they are treated rudely and
I said so.  I must have misinterpreted your "i don't get it" to mean that
you want to understand.  Some people say "I don't get it" when they mean "I
do get it, and I think it sucks"  I attempted to offer an explanation for
the bad situation, including the possibility that the dude is just a jerk.
I don't understand why you think I'm defending somebody being rude to you.
I'm not defending him.

I did not mean intend to amaze you, and I did not intend to suggest how you
should approach spending your money.  I mistakenly thought MSRP on White
Industries stuff is common knowledge.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 4:55:35 PM UTC-8, Hugh Smitham wrote:

>
>
> On Feb 15, 2017 10:55 AM, "Bill Lindsay"  wrote:
>
> Hugh pointed out something he does not understand:
>
> " what I don't get is when you ask a retailer how much they can get a
> White Industries hub for you? And they give you negative attitude for even
> asking the question"
>
> Hugh went on to explain:
>
> " I was ready to just have them order the part regardless"
>
> Hugh, I will try to explain the part that you don't understand.  You
> definitely didn't deserve to get attitude from the salesperson, and you
> should not buy from people who give you attitude.  The person giving you
> attitude wasn't about you.  Either the guy is a jerk who gives everybody
> attitude, or he's tired of being asked for prices on parts he doesn't
> stock.  Everybody who works at a shop frequently gets asked for a price on
> something they don't stock.  19 times out of 20, you quote a price, and the
> customer says "OK" and leaves.  Maybe they'll ask first "do you match
> prices?" and then show you their phone where some online seller is selling
> something at below cost.  It gets tiresome, and it happens all the time.
> When you asked for a price quote, I bet that was what was going through his
> mind, and he was just tired of it.  It was unfair to you, because he
> assumed you were doing to him the same thing that the previous 19 people
> did to him with the same question.  The fact is, retailers are bad at
> selling you things they don't stock.  If you want to help a retailer, buy
> something that they have in stock.  If you think they could improve their
> business by stocking something new, suggest it.  Buy tubes from your LBS.
> Buy cables from your LBS.  Buy chains and brakepads from your LBS.  That
> stuff is on the shelf and it helps them out, alot.
>
>
> Gee Bill I really appreciate you going to the trouble of explaining how I
> should approach shopping. Frankly, I don't care if I was the 100th customer
> who asked for a price. Here's a novel idea Bill, it's not my prerogative to
> patronize a retailer who treats me disrespectful for any parts large or
> small. I have never shown an online price to a bike shop employee unless
> they specifically requested me to do so.
>
> When I came in to the LBS in the recent past I had them build a $1200
> wheelset, build two bikes and bought, tubes, bottles, patches, cables...I
> asked one of the Proprietors what was the best price for said hub? His
> response was something to the effect we can't give you a lower price, you
> should go buy it somewhere else, maybe online. I was shocked. Left with a
> really bad taste.
>
> I know a guy running his own shop by him

Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[James Warren]

1000 Patrick Moores means 1000 gears!

(Joke ignores that he has a few bikes.)


Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 15, 2017, at 8:09 PM, "'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch" 
>  wrote:
> 
> A thousand Patrick Moores...now that's something to think about. But of 
> course, there is only the one, the incomparable Patrick Moore;^)
> 
> On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 6:56:55 PM UTC-5, Grant @ Rivendell wrote:
>> 
>> Nobody here keeps score, but for the record...if we had a thousand Patrick 
>> Moores, we'd be fat and gorgeous.
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

A thousand Patrick Moores...now that's something to think about. But of 
course, there is only the one, the incomparable Patrick Moore;^)

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 6:56:55 PM UTC-5, Grant @ Rivendell 
wrote:
>
> Nobody here keeps score, but for the record...if we had a thousand Patrick 
> Moores, we'd be fat and gorgeous.
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Ian A]

Ryan wrote "... eloquent in praise of your customs...and you're usually not 
rude either". 

Since I've been reading this list from around 2008 or so, Patrick Moore has 
always been most eloquent and a gentleman. 

IanA

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Joe Bernard]

Grant: What is The Thing that has changed recently? Is it changing tastes in 
bicycles; less interest in bikes overall; ebikes; or simply the Amazon Effect? 

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA 

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Bill Lindsay]

Hugh

I don't know why both you and Christopher Murray seem to think that I 
approve with how you were mistreated at your bike shop.  I said I 
disapprove of how you were treated.  I said it was unfair to you.  I don't 
think anyone should buy anything anywhere where they are treated rudely and 
I said so.  I must have misinterpreted your "i don't get it" to mean that 
you want to understand.  Some people say "I don't get it" when they mean "I 
do get it, and I think it sucks"  I attempted to offer an explanation for 
the bad situation, including the possibility that the dude is just a jerk. 
 I don't understand why you think I'm defending somebody being rude to you. 
 I'm not defending him.  

I did not mean intend to amaze you, and I did not intend to suggest how you 
should approach spending your money.  I mistakenly thought MSRP on White 
Industries stuff is common knowledge.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 4:55:35 PM UTC-8, Hugh Smitham wrote:
>
>
>
> On Feb 15, 2017 10:55 AM, "Bill Lindsay" > 
> wrote:
>
> Hugh pointed out something he does not understand:
>
> " what I don't get is when you ask a retailer how much they can get a 
> White Industries hub for you? And they give you negative attitude for even 
> asking the question"
>
> Hugh went on to explain:
>
> " I was ready to just have them order the part regardless"
>
> Hugh, I will try to explain the part that you don't understand.  You 
> definitely didn't deserve to get attitude from the salesperson, and you 
> should not buy from people who give you attitude.  The person giving you 
> attitude wasn't about you.  Either the guy is a jerk who gives everybody 
> attitude, or he's tired of being asked for prices on parts he doesn't 
> stock.  Everybody who works at a shop frequently gets asked for a price on 
> something they don't stock.  19 times out of 20, you quote a price, and the 
> customer says "OK" and leaves.  Maybe they'll ask first "do you match 
> prices?" and then show you their phone where some online seller is selling 
> something at below cost.  It gets tiresome, and it happens all the time.  
> When you asked for a price quote, I bet that was what was going through his 
> mind, and he was just tired of it.  It was unfair to you, because he 
> assumed you were doing to him the same thing that the previous 19 people 
> did to him with the same question.  The fact is, retailers are bad at 
> selling you things they don't stock.  If you want to help a retailer, buy 
> something that they have in stock.  If you think they could improve their 
> business by stocking something new, suggest it.  Buy tubes from your LBS.  
> Buy cables from your LBS.  Buy chains and brakepads from your LBS.  That 
> stuff is on the shelf and it helps them out, alot.  
>
>
> Gee Bill I really appreciate you going to the trouble of explaining how I 
> should approach shopping. Frankly, I don't care if I was the 100th customer 
> who asked for a price. Here's a novel idea Bill, it's not my prerogative to 
> patronize a retailer who treats me disrespectful for any parts large or 
> small. I have never shown an online price to a bike shop employee unless 
> they specifically requested me to do so.
>
> When I came in to the LBS in the recent past I had them build a $1200 
> wheelset, build two bikes and bought, tubes, bottles, patches, cables...I 
> asked one of the Proprietors what was the best price for said hub? His 
> response was something to the effect we can't give you a lower price, you 
> should go buy it somewhere else, maybe online. I was shocked. Left with a 
> really bad taste. 
>
> I know a guy running his own shop by himself, no employees, always busy. 
> But he always makes time to talk with me respectfully. He needs the 
> business and I'll continue to support him.
>
> On making a suggestion to carry products, this I have done at a different 
> LBS and the Assistant Manager with heaps of shitty attitude scoffed at my 
> suggestion. The suggestion was maybe carry a few steel touring bikes.
>
>
> My question back to you, Hugh, is: if you wanted to buy the White 
> Industries hub from them, regardless of price, why did you ask for the 
> price?  Why didn't you say: "Hi, I'm Hugh.  I need a White Industries MI5 
> rear hub.  I know MSRP is $323, and I can order it direct from White 
> Industries, but I'd rather put the money in your register.  Do you want to 
> order it for me?"  I bet you would not have gotten attitude, and it would 
> have been a very pleasant transaction.  That's exactly what I do when I 
> need Schmidt hubs.  I call Riv and say "Hi, it's Bill.  I need a SON 
> Delux.  Should I order ti from Peter White, or do you want to sell it to 
> me?"  I always buy my White Industries stuff and Paul stuff from Mike 
> Varley at Black Mountain Cycles.  He doesn't always have exactly what I 
> need in stock, but Mike loves White Industries and Paul, and they love 
> Mike.  Everyone is happy that I put my mo

Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Joe Bernard]

My favorite personal story about buying from Riv is from last year when I 
decided to move my $1300 CLEM pre-order cash into a more expensive Appaloosa. 
Grant walked in while I was in the process of paying Roman and said (from the 
kitchen), "Are you sure you can afford it, Joe?"  'Sure. Kinda!'  I'm trying to 
hand the guy $2600 (estimate, I can't remember) and he's worried that I'm in 
over my head. Like a friend would do. That was nice :-) 

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Hugh Smitham]

On Feb 15, 2017 10:55 AM, "Bill Lindsay"  wrote:

Hugh pointed out something he does not understand:

" what I don't get is when you ask a retailer how much they can get a White
Industries hub for you? And they give you negative attitude for even asking
the question"

Hugh went on to explain:

" I was ready to just have them order the part regardless"

Hugh, I will try to explain the part that you don't understand.  You
definitely didn't deserve to get attitude from the salesperson, and you
should not buy from people who give you attitude.  The person giving you
attitude wasn't about you.  Either the guy is a jerk who gives everybody
attitude, or he's tired of being asked for prices on parts he doesn't
stock.  Everybody who works at a shop frequently gets asked for a price on
something they don't stock.  19 times out of 20, you quote a price, and the
customer says "OK" and leaves.  Maybe they'll ask first "do you match
prices?" and then show you their phone where some online seller is selling
something at below cost.  It gets tiresome, and it happens all the time.
When you asked for a price quote, I bet that was what was going through his
mind, and he was just tired of it.  It was unfair to you, because he
assumed you were doing to him the same thing that the previous 19 people
did to him with the same question.  The fact is, retailers are bad at
selling you things they don't stock.  If you want to help a retailer, buy
something that they have in stock.  If you think they could improve their
business by stocking something new, suggest it.  Buy tubes from your LBS.
Buy cables from your LBS.  Buy chains and brakepads from your LBS.  That
stuff is on the shelf and it helps them out, alot.


Gee Bill I really appreciate you going to the trouble of explaining how I
should approach shopping. Frankly, I don't care if I was the 100th customer
who asked for a price. Here's a novel idea Bill, it's not my prerogative to
patronize a retailer who treats me disrespectful for any parts large or
small. I have never shown an online price to a bike shop employee unless
they specifically requested me to do so.

When I came in to the LBS in the recent past I had them build a $1200
wheelset, build two bikes and bought, tubes, bottles, patches, cables...I
asked one of the Proprietors what was the best price for said hub? His
response was something to the effect we can't give you a lower price, you
should go buy it somewhere else, maybe online. I was shocked. Left with a
really bad taste.

I know a guy running his own shop by himself, no employees, always busy.
But he always makes time to talk with me respectfully. He needs the
business and I'll continue to support him.

On making a suggestion to carry products, this I have done at a different
LBS and the Assistant Manager with heaps of shitty attitude scoffed at my
suggestion. The suggestion was maybe carry a few steel touring bikes.


My question back to you, Hugh, is: if you wanted to buy the White
Industries hub from them, regardless of price, why did you ask for the
price?  Why didn't you say: "Hi, I'm Hugh.  I need a White Industries MI5
rear hub.  I know MSRP is $323, and I can order it direct from White
Industries, but I'd rather put the money in your register.  Do you want to
order it for me?"  I bet you would not have gotten attitude, and it would
have been a very pleasant transaction.  That's exactly what I do when I
need Schmidt hubs.  I call Riv and say "Hi, it's Bill.  I need a SON
Delux.  Should I order ti from Peter White, or do you want to sell it to
me?"  I always buy my White Industries stuff and Paul stuff from Mike
Varley at Black Mountain Cycles.  He doesn't always have exactly what I
need in stock, but Mike loves White Industries and Paul, and they love
Mike.  Everyone is happy that I put my money in Mike's register.  He's a 75
minute drive away from me, but it's a nice drive and Mike has a nice couch
and usually offers me a beer.  Sometimes I feel a little bit like a sucker
when I see folks discounting Paul stuff at half-retail, but I try to get
over it.


Well Bill we aren't all so well healed as you where we can just toss our
money around without asking for a price. I asked because that's what I do
as a consumer, I check on pricing which in my experience can fluctuate. In
the end they lost a wheel build which included other parts and I always ask
in a polite and respectful way.

He could have said you know Hugh we don't have any wiggle room on those
hubs but we'd like to order it for you and get that wheel built for you.
We'll build it for $45 rather than $50 since you've been such a valued
customer.

I'm not angry with you just amazed you'd suggest how I should approach
spending my money. But I get it, you used to work at a bike shop.

~Hugh


Bill two-cents-is-all-it's-worth Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA


On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 9:27:53 AM UTC-8, Hugh Smitham wrote:

> I agree.
>
> I get that running a bike store is hard work and the margin's are

Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Ryan Fleming]

yeah...patrick I don't think you have to apologise :) And you've been 
eloquent in praise of your customs...and you're usually not rude either

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 6:07:38 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Except you'd long since have driven me from your customer database in 
> disgust and exasperation at my excessively weird taste in customs and 
> clothing. (When we were discussing one of my 26" wheel customs, long ago, I 
> said, brightly:"I'll post this to the list!!!" Grant replied, "Don't you 
> dare.")
>
> Grant, you got me sold way back in the '90s when I heard you say, "We are 
> product driven, not market driven." I did a MBA paper based on Rivendell 
> and that theme. Got an A, too.
>
> Long may you wave or thrive or live or whatever it is y'all do.
>
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 4:56 PM, Grant Petersen  > wrote:
>
>> Nobody here keeps score, but for the record...if we had a thousand 
>> Patrick Moores, we'd be fat and gorgeous.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Patrick Moore > > wrote:
>>
>>> One -- I won't say problem, but one factor affecting a decision to buy 
>>> from Rivendell or from another online vendor or from a LBS or used or 
>>> whatever, is the "style" of merchandise. I'm fortunately at the time of 
>>> life and at the period in my bike tastes that I have most of what I want, 
>>> and my needs are very, very particular. I have my own likes and dislikes 
>>> about bikes, riding style, and cycling clothing, and my only "generic" 
>>> needs are almost commodity items -- cables, housing, ferrules, sealants, 
>>> lubes, and so forth.
>>>
>>> Rivendell offers a very distinct "style" of bicycles and clothing and 
>>> accessories, and for the most part they are not what I want. I'd happily 
>>> order more if the inventory was more to my taste. Also, I'd happily order a 
>>> Roadeo, a Hunq (maybe; I'd want to convert it to disc brakes), a Legolas 
>>> perhaps a Clem, *if* I had the money, but these would be outlier items, 
>>> not the focus of my riding preferences.
>>>
>>> As for the generic things, I can buy them as cheaply at LBS's and 
>>> support local businesses.
>>>
>>> I suppose my Rivendell-fandom is largely coasting on the 3 customs I've 
>>> ordered, and on the wonderful Wooly Warm outer jersey -- ragg knit?--  with 
>>> tall button collar, rear pockets, trim but not tight cut -- wonderful over 
>>> a base wool LS jersey at temps from, say, 45F down to 35F. If Riv still 
>>> offered that vest in the same style, I'd truly weigh it against an Ibex.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 4:09 PM, Evan E. >> > wrote:
>>>
 No matter how often we discuss this topic of right livelihood -- maybe 
 once a year? -- I always find it interesting. 

 By and large, I try to buy merchandise from Rivendell and to buy labor 
 from my LBS. Once in a while, I'll buy an item from an online merchant, 
 particularly if, per Grant's post above, said merchant sounds like an 
 actual business with actual staff, and, yes, if it offers a good deal on 
 something (such as VP Vice pedals) that Riv and my LBS don't stock.

 I love Rivendell and I love the people there, so I do support them. But 
 today all I have in my Riv shopping cart is ferrules and two tubes. I 
 don't 
 need the tubes. And I've already loaded up on various parts, books, 
 bandannas, and pine tar soap. But come to think of it (duh), maybe I 
 should 
 buy a gift certificate to use toward future purchases. That would give Riv 
 some cash flow -- an advance of sorts. Right?

 -- 
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
 Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
 an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
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 .
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 For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>>> Other professional writing services.
>>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>>> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
>>> Patrick Moore
>>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>>> *
>>> ***
>>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
>>> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
>>> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>>
>>> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
>>> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>>>
>>> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>>>
>>> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *
>>> Aristotle
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You r

Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Patrick Moore]

Except you'd long since have driven me from your customer database in
disgust and exasperation at my excessively weird taste in customs and
clothing. (When we were discussing one of my 26" wheel customs, long ago, I
said, brightly:"I'll post this to the list!!!" Grant replied, "Don't you
dare.")

Grant, you got me sold way back in the '90s when I heard you say, "We are
product driven, not market driven." I did a MBA paper based on Rivendell
and that theme. Got an A, too.

Long may you wave or thrive or live or whatever it is y'all do.

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 4:56 PM, Grant Petersen  wrote:

> Nobody here keeps score, but for the record...if we had a thousand Patrick
> Moores, we'd be fat and gorgeous.
>
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Patrick Moore 
> wrote:
>
>> One -- I won't say problem, but one factor affecting a decision to buy
>> from Rivendell or from another online vendor or from a LBS or used or
>> whatever, is the "style" of merchandise. I'm fortunately at the time of
>> life and at the period in my bike tastes that I have most of what I want,
>> and my needs are very, very particular. I have my own likes and dislikes
>> about bikes, riding style, and cycling clothing, and my only "generic"
>> needs are almost commodity items -- cables, housing, ferrules, sealants,
>> lubes, and so forth.
>>
>> Rivendell offers a very distinct "style" of bicycles and clothing and
>> accessories, and for the most part they are not what I want. I'd happily
>> order more if the inventory was more to my taste. Also, I'd happily order a
>> Roadeo, a Hunq (maybe; I'd want to convert it to disc brakes), a Legolas
>> perhaps a Clem, *if* I had the money, but these would be outlier items,
>> not the focus of my riding preferences.
>>
>> As for the generic things, I can buy them as cheaply at LBS's and support
>> local businesses.
>>
>> I suppose my Rivendell-fandom is largely coasting on the 3 customs I've
>> ordered, and on the wonderful Wooly Warm outer jersey -- ragg knit?--  with
>> tall button collar, rear pockets, trim but not tight cut -- wonderful over
>> a base wool LS jersey at temps from, say, 45F down to 35F. If Riv still
>> offered that vest in the same style, I'd truly weigh it against an Ibex.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 4:09 PM, Evan E.  wrote:
>>
>>> No matter how often we discuss this topic of right livelihood -- maybe
>>> once a year? -- I always find it interesting.
>>>
>>> By and large, I try to buy merchandise from Rivendell and to buy labor
>>> from my LBS. Once in a while, I'll buy an item from an online merchant,
>>> particularly if, per Grant's post above, said merchant sounds like an
>>> actual business with actual staff, and, yes, if it offers a good deal on
>>> something (such as VP Vice pedals) that Riv and my LBS don't stock.
>>>
>>> I love Rivendell and I love the people there, so I do support them. But
>>> today all I have in my Riv shopping cart is ferrules and two tubes. I don't
>>> need the tubes. And I've already loaded up on various parts, books,
>>> bandannas, and pine tar soap. But come to think of it (duh), maybe I should
>>> buy a gift certificate to use toward future purchases. That would give Riv
>>> some cash flow -- an advance of sorts. Right?
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>> Other professional writing services.
>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>> 
>> 
>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
>> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and
>> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>
>> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
>> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>>
>> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>>
>> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/to
>> pic/rbw-owners-bunch/nDRC-egq9g8/unsubscribe.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
>> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email t

Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Grant Petersen]

Nobody here keeps score, but for the record...if we had a thousand Patrick
Moores, we'd be fat and gorgeous.

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> One -- I won't say problem, but one factor affecting a decision to buy
> from Rivendell or from another online vendor or from a LBS or used or
> whatever, is the "style" of merchandise. I'm fortunately at the time of
> life and at the period in my bike tastes that I have most of what I want,
> and my needs are very, very particular. I have my own likes and dislikes
> about bikes, riding style, and cycling clothing, and my only "generic"
> needs are almost commodity items -- cables, housing, ferrules, sealants,
> lubes, and so forth.
>
> Rivendell offers a very distinct "style" of bicycles and clothing and
> accessories, and for the most part they are not what I want. I'd happily
> order more if the inventory was more to my taste. Also, I'd happily order a
> Roadeo, a Hunq (maybe; I'd want to convert it to disc brakes), a Legolas
> perhaps a Clem, *if* I had the money, but these would be outlier items,
> not the focus of my riding preferences.
>
> As for the generic things, I can buy them as cheaply at LBS's and support
> local businesses.
>
> I suppose my Rivendell-fandom is largely coasting on the 3 customs I've
> ordered, and on the wonderful Wooly Warm outer jersey -- ragg knit?--  with
> tall button collar, rear pockets, trim but not tight cut -- wonderful over
> a base wool LS jersey at temps from, say, 45F down to 35F. If Riv still
> offered that vest in the same style, I'd truly weigh it against an Ibex.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 4:09 PM, Evan E.  wrote:
>
>> No matter how often we discuss this topic of right livelihood -- maybe
>> once a year? -- I always find it interesting.
>>
>> By and large, I try to buy merchandise from Rivendell and to buy labor
>> from my LBS. Once in a while, I'll buy an item from an online merchant,
>> particularly if, per Grant's post above, said merchant sounds like an
>> actual business with actual staff, and, yes, if it offers a good deal on
>> something (such as VP Vice pedals) that Riv and my LBS don't stock.
>>
>> I love Rivendell and I love the people there, so I do support them. But
>> today all I have in my Riv shopping cart is ferrules and two tubes. I don't
>> need the tubes. And I've already loaded up on various parts, books,
>> bandannas, and pine tar soap. But come to think of it (duh), maybe I should
>> buy a gift certificate to use toward future purchases. That would give Riv
>> some cash flow -- an advance of sorts. Right?
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> **
> **
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and
> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>
> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/
> topic/rbw-owners-bunch/nDRC-egq9g8/unsubscribe.
> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Patrick Moore]

One -- I won't say problem, but one factor affecting a decision to buy from
Rivendell or from another online vendor or from a LBS or used or whatever,
is the "style" of merchandise. I'm fortunately at the time of life and at
the period in my bike tastes that I have most of what I want, and my needs
are very, very particular. I have my own likes and dislikes about bikes,
riding style, and cycling clothing, and my only "generic" needs are almost
commodity items -- cables, housing, ferrules, sealants, lubes, and so forth.

Rivendell offers a very distinct "style" of bicycles and clothing and
accessories, and for the most part they are not what I want. I'd happily
order more if the inventory was more to my taste. Also, I'd happily order a
Roadeo, a Hunq (maybe; I'd want to convert it to disc brakes), a Legolas
perhaps a Clem, *if* I had the money, but these would be outlier items, not
the focus of my riding preferences.

As for the generic things, I can buy them as cheaply at LBS's and support
local businesses.

I suppose my Rivendell-fandom is largely coasting on the 3 customs I've
ordered, and on the wonderful Wooly Warm outer jersey -- ragg knit?--  with
tall button collar, rear pockets, trim but not tight cut -- wonderful over
a base wool LS jersey at temps from, say, 45F down to 35F. If Riv still
offered that vest in the same style, I'd truly weigh it against an Ibex.



On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 4:09 PM, Evan E.  wrote:

> No matter how often we discuss this topic of right livelihood -- maybe
> once a year? -- I always find it interesting.
>
> By and large, I try to buy merchandise from Rivendell and to buy labor
> from my LBS. Once in a while, I'll buy an item from an online merchant,
> particularly if, per Grant's post above, said merchant sounds like an
> actual business with actual staff, and, yes, if it offers a good deal on
> something (such as VP Vice pedals) that Riv and my LBS don't stock.
>
> I love Rivendell and I love the people there, so I do support them. But
> today all I have in my Riv shopping cart is ferrules and two tubes. I don't
> need the tubes. And I've already loaded up on various parts, books,
> bandannas, and pine tar soap. But come to think of it (duh), maybe I should
> buy a gift certificate to use toward future purchases. That would give Riv
> some cash flow -- an advance of sorts. Right?
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



-- 
Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
Other professional writing services.
http://www.resumespecialties.com/
www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
**
**
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

*It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart

*Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Evan E.]

No matter how often we discuss this topic of right livelihood -- maybe once 
a year? -- I always find it interesting. 

By and large, I try to buy merchandise from Rivendell and to buy labor from 
my LBS. Once in a while, I'll buy an item from an online merchant, 
particularly if, per Grant's post above, said merchant sounds like an 
actual business with actual staff, and, yes, if it offers a good deal on 
something (such as VP Vice pedals) that Riv and my LBS don't stock.

I love Rivendell and I love the people there, so I do support them. But 
today all I have in my Riv shopping cart is ferrules and two tubes. I don't 
need the tubes. And I've already loaded up on various parts, books, 
bandannas, and pine tar soap. But come to think of it (duh), maybe I should 
buy a gift certificate to use toward future purchases. That would give Riv 
some cash flow -- an advance of sorts. Right?

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Grant Petersen]

ON LBS or ONLINE or combo:

Not all ONLINERS are alike. At one extreme there is the late-20s guy who
never left the house or ramped up his resume, but he got  into bikes, and
cleared the hurdles to getting a reseller's permit. He eats and sleeps
iwhether or not he sells anything, but he likes to stay busy and the
correspondence and attention that comes with the business. His super low
prices come with non-immediate shipping because he doesn't stock anything,
so his theoretical inventory is sold before he orders it.   This is legal
and honest work, but the sale benefits one person who's not even in need.

At the other extreme there must be oversalaried suppliers who underpay
their employees and offer no benefits, and who jack up prices because on
principle they have to cover the top-heavy salaries, and the underpaid
staff is totally dispensible because customers can educate themselves
online, or something...and the staff never has to interact.

RBW is between those. We're in one of two low-rent buildings in a town
where, if you didn't buy a home 25 years ago with some family help, you
won't be able to working here. We pay better-than-bikeshop wages and offer
"gunning for google" benefits. We buy as direct and sell as direct as
possible to keep prices down, but if every puchase comes down to price,
we're no match for the pajama-clad brat with a computer and a day to win
the game. Then we're left with frames and bags and we layoff 11 of 14
employees. I think we got into this at the right time, but it doesn't seem
to be the right time anymore. We're trimming the menu and the cut items
won't be replaced. We're on an inventory-spending budget that means we'll
be more often out of stock. This stuff goes on all over the world, but is
just really obvious when the lake you thought your canoe was in is actually
a river and the waterfall's right over there.

We also have costs the extremes (or an LBS) doesn't have, because so much
of what we offer is our design, made for us, and we're picky about
materials and construction. The USA-available waxed cotton is 65 percent as
good as the Sackville Scottish cotton, but every time we order the
Scotstuff, we have a $9,000 bill and another $1,500 for freight to
Connecticut. There's a similar story for almost everything we "make." I've
understood this the whole time, and I don't mind, because it's the only way
we can stay in business. It doesn't work to buy Shimano derailers for $60,
then try to compete with online prices of $62. A non-businessperson would
think that's a $2 profit...

Whatever Alex at Yellow Haus (or James at Gravel & Grind) or John at Rivelo
charges for anything--it's the right price. We're all just licking the
bowls these days trying to hang in and hoping something changes. (I don't
mean to say I know their money woes, but it is impossible for them not to
worry every day.

It's hard to stay on top of everything the experts say we have to do to
stay alive. Have a device-friendly website? OK. Two clicks to the shopping
cart, and one click to buy? That's harder. Just-in-time inventory is
impossible. If Toyota couldn't do it in 1988, Rivendell sure can't do it
now.



On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 1:08 PM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> Christopher Murray
>
> I agree with you.  Who suggested that it is OK to be impolite?  You sound
> like you are replying to my post.  Let me quote my own post:
>
> *"You definitely didn't deserve to get attitude from the salesperson, and
> you should not buy from people who give you attitude"*
>
> That was me saying it is not OK to be impolite.  You should not suggest
> that I approve of retail people being impolite.  I do not approve of it.  I
> went on to say:
>
> *"It was unfair to you, because he assumed you were doing to him the same
> thing that the previous 19 people did"  *
>
> That was me saying again that it is not OK for retail salespeople to be
> impolite.  Who said it was OK?
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 12:46:33 PM UTC-8, Christopher Murray
> wrote:
>>
>> Ha! No way. I'm the customer and any store employee should treat me in a
>> polite and respectful manner. It's not my problem what the 19 people before
>> me did and to suggest otherwise is laughable. I've worked more than my
>> share of retail. It's not that difficult to be polite-- let's not act like
>> it is. I'm sorry if someone is frustrated but if they are taking that
>> frustration out on the next customer they are probably in the wrong line of
>> work.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Christopher Murray]

Bill 

Bill
I was replying to your post. I agree that you did not say it was ok to be 
impolite but disagree that you didn't suggest it was ok or at least 
understandable given the employee's previous 19 experiences. Giving advice for 
how Hugh could have handled it differently shifts blame from the employee to 
Hugh. As if he could (or should) have done something differently. My point is 
simply that retail employees should always be polite and respectful. No 
excuses. 

I'm not speaking for Hugh, just responding as how I would feel if I were the 
subject of your post. 

Chris 

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Bill Lindsay]

Christopher Murray

I agree with you.  Who suggested that it is OK to be impolite?  You sound 
like you are replying to my post.  Let me quote my own post:

*"You definitely didn't deserve to get attitude from the salesperson, and 
you should not buy from people who give you attitude"*

That was me saying it is not OK to be impolite.  You should not suggest 
that I approve of retail people being impolite.  I do not approve of it.  I 
went on to say:

*"It was unfair to you, because he assumed you were doing to him the same 
thing that the previous 19 people did"  *

That was me saying again that it is not OK for retail salespeople to be 
impolite.  Who said it was OK?  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA



On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 12:46:33 PM UTC-8, Christopher Murray 
wrote:
>
> Ha! No way. I'm the customer and any store employee should treat me in a 
> polite and respectful manner. It's not my problem what the 19 people before 
> me did and to suggest otherwise is laughable. I've worked more than my 
> share of retail. It's not that difficult to be polite-- let's not act like 
> it is. I'm sorry if someone is frustrated but if they are taking that 
> frustration out on the next customer they are probably in the wrong line of 
> work. 
>
> Cheers,
> Chris 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Christopher Murray]

Ha! No way. I'm the customer and any store employee should treat me in a polite 
and respectful manner. It's not my problem what the 19 people before me did and 
to suggest otherwise is laughable. I've worked more than my share of retail. 
It's not that difficult to be polite-- let's not act like it is. I'm sorry if 
someone is frustrated but if they are taking that frustration out on the next 
customer they are probably in the wrong line of work. 

Cheers,
Chris 

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Bill Lindsay]

Yes, Bob, you are right.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to guilt 
people for shopping online.  I do it a TON.  I also buy and sell a lot of 
second hand stuff on the lists, which I also think it great.  

Bill

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 11:51:05 AM UTC-8, Bob K. wrote:
>
> Agreed on all counts, Bill. Patronizing LBSs is fun, and I love the 
> connection with owners and workers. It feels good to support real people.
>
> But it's not always that easy for me. I tinker with my bikes because it's 
> fun, and I enjoy it, not because I *need *to. Can I always afford to pay 
> my LBS--where prices are generally, but not always, competitive with online 
> sources--for all of the parts/bikes/tools I need to fuel my tinkering fire? 
> Nope, I can't. So I figure I've got four choices: 
>
> 1) Don't buy the stuff at all because I don't really need it; 
> 2) Only buy stuff when I can afford it at LBS price;
> 3) Default to the world wide interwebernets when LBS prices are "out of 
> reach."
> 4) Buy used/second-hand whenever possible and forego the whole 
> retail/discounted retail thing altogether.
>
> I generally get all of my consumables (brake pads, cables/housing, etc.) 
> from my LBS, but the first places I look for parts are generally this 
> list/iBob/eBay--and it occurs to me that this could also theoretically hurt 
> the LBS, although perhaps the parts were or may've been purchased there 
> originally and this train of thought is now making my head hurt. And I do 
> often default to scouring different sources online for the cheapest price 
> on the parts I want. In fact, I'm working on a build right now for a frame 
> that I'm planning to buy from a LBS, and I'm still scouring the www to find 
> cheapest prices on parts. I know this hurts my LBS, but I allow the desire 
> to have the part and the desire to make it fit into my non-existent bike 
> budget overwhelm my desire to support local business and real people--but 
> then again, aren't there real people behind those websites, too? And now my 
> head hurts again.
>
> Anyway, perhaps this has been less a productive contribution to this 
> thread and more a personal confession. So it goes.
>
> Bob K. in Baltimore
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Daniel D.]

Earning the money can already be enough of headache.  I'm not going to give 
myself a headache doing the fun part, spending it.

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Robert Keal]

Agreed on all counts, Bill. Patronizing LBSs is fun, and I love the
connection with owners and workers. It feels good to support real people.

But it's not always that easy for me. I tinker with my bikes because it's
fun, and I enjoy it, not because I *need *to. Can I always afford to pay my
LBS--where prices are generally, but not always, competitive with online
sources--for all of the parts/bikes/tools I need to fuel my tinkering fire?
Nope, I can't. So I figure I've got four choices:

1) Don't buy the stuff at all because I don't really need it;
2) Only buy stuff when I can afford it at LBS price;
3) Default to the world wide interwebernets when LBS prices are "out of
reach."
4) Buy used/second-hand whenever possible and forego the whole
retail/discounted retail thing altogether.

I generally get all of my consumables (brake pads, cables/housing, etc.)
from my LBS, but the first places I look for parts are generally this
list/iBob/eBay--and it occurs to me that this could also theoretically hurt
the LBS, although perhaps the parts were or may've been purchased there
originally and this train of thought is now making my head hurt. And I do
often default to scouring different sources online for the cheapest price
on the parts I want. In fact, I'm working on a build right now for a frame
that I'm planning to buy from a LBS, and I'm still scouring the www to find
cheapest prices on parts. I know this hurts my LBS, but I allow the desire
to have the part and the desire to make it fit into my non-existent bike
budget overwhelm my desire to support local business and real people--but
then again, aren't there real people behind those websites, too? And now my
head hurts again.

Anyway, perhaps this has been less a productive contribution to this thread
and more a personal confession. So it goes.

Bob K. in Baltimore

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Ryan Fleming]

I have tried ordering special parts from my LBSand I'm not trying to 
get a deal and if the effort they expend to order is part of the price, I'm 
fine with that. Waiting several weeks for a part from my LBS on the other 
hand is sometimes not OK if I can get it online in a week. It depends on 
the season though. I guess that's a tough one because ordering piecemeal , 
as we know, quickly adds up (in shipping costs). Riv was very good about 
building my bike with parts not on the menu...including the aforementioned 
WI M-15 hubs

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 12:55:10 PM UTC-6, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Hugh pointed out something he does not understand:
>
> " what I don't get is when you ask a retailer how much they can get a 
> White Industries hub for you? And they give you negative attitude for even 
> asking the question"
>
> Hugh went on to explain:
>
> " I was ready to just have them order the part regardless"
>
> Hugh, I will try to explain the part that you don't understand.  You 
> definitely didn't deserve to get attitude from the salesperson, and you 
> should not buy from people who give you attitude.  The person giving you 
> attitude wasn't about you.  Either the guy is a jerk who gives everybody 
> attitude, or he's tired of being asked for prices on parts he doesn't 
> stock.  Everybody who works at a shop frequently gets asked for a price on 
> something they don't stock.  19 times out of 20, you quote a price, and the 
> customer says "OK" and leaves.  Maybe they'll ask first "do you match 
> prices?" and then show you their phone where some online seller is selling 
> something at below cost.  It gets tiresome, and it happens all the time. 
>  When you asked for a price quote, I bet that was what was going through 
> his mind, and he was just tired of it.  It was unfair to you, because he 
> assumed you were doing to him the same thing that the previous 19 people 
> did to him with the same question.  The fact is, retailers are bad at 
> selling you things they don't stock.  If you want to help a retailer, buy 
> something that they have in stock.  If you think they could improve their 
> business by stocking something new, suggest it.  Buy tubes from your LBS. 
>  Buy cables from your LBS.  Buy chains and brakepads from your LBS.  That 
> stuff is on the shelf and it helps them out, alot.  
>
> My question back to you, Hugh, is: if you wanted to buy the White 
> Industries hub from them, regardless of price, why did you ask for the 
> price?  Why didn't you say: "Hi, I'm Hugh.  I need a White Industries MI5 
> rear hub.  I know MSRP is $323, and I can order it direct from White 
> Industries, but I'd rather put the money in your register.  Do you want to 
> order it for me?"  I bet you would not have gotten attitude, and it would 
> have been a very pleasant transaction.  That's exactly what I do when I 
> need Schmidt hubs.  I call Riv and say "Hi, it's Bill.  I need a SON Delux. 
>  Should I order ti from Peter White, or do you want to sell it to me?"  I 
> always buy my White Industries stuff and Paul stuff from Mike Varley at 
> Black Mountain Cycles.  He doesn't always have exactly what I need in 
> stock, but Mike loves White Industries and Paul, and they love Mike. 
>  Everyone is happy that I put my money in Mike's register.  He's a 75 
> minute drive away from me, but it's a nice drive and Mike has a nice couch 
> and usually offers me a beer.  Sometimes I feel a little bit like a sucker 
> when I see folks discounting Paul stuff at half-retail, but I try to get 
> over it. 
>
> Bill two-cents-is-all-it's-worth Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
> On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 9:27:53 AM UTC-8, Hugh Smitham wrote:
>>
>> I agree.
>>
>> I get that running a bike store is hard work and the margin's are tough, 
>> what I don't get is when you ask a retailer how much they can get a White 
>> Industries hub for you? And they give you negative attitude for even asking 
>> the question. In this case I ended up getting the hub from a euro retailer 
>> and saved some money. But what the retailer didn't realize was I was ready 
>> to just have them order the part regardless. Why because I was hoping to 
>> support them. Attitude goes a long way! Now when I think of buying locally 
>> or having some work done I think twice about whether I want to patronage 
>> their shop.
>>
>> ~Hugh
>>
>> “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep 
>> moving.” ― Albert Einstein
>>
>> http://velocipeedemusings.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
>>
>>> A shitty attitude is a damn' good way to go out of business in the bike 
>>> retail business! Fortunately (at least for me in my area, ABQ, NM) there 
>>> are some very good shops near me: Fat Tire and Stevie's to name the 2 best, 
>>> and High Desert is OK if you get good with the owners.
>>>
>>> From my own experience, some shops were started by cycling afficionados 
>>> who loved bikes

Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Bill Lindsay]

Hugh pointed out something he does not understand:

" what I don't get is when you ask a retailer how much they can get a White 
Industries hub for you? And they give you negative attitude for even asking 
the question"

Hugh went on to explain:

" I was ready to just have them order the part regardless"

Hugh, I will try to explain the part that you don't understand.  You 
definitely didn't deserve to get attitude from the salesperson, and you 
should not buy from people who give you attitude.  The person giving you 
attitude wasn't about you.  Either the guy is a jerk who gives everybody 
attitude, or he's tired of being asked for prices on parts he doesn't 
stock.  Everybody who works at a shop frequently gets asked for a price on 
something they don't stock.  19 times out of 20, you quote a price, and the 
customer says "OK" and leaves.  Maybe they'll ask first "do you match 
prices?" and then show you their phone where some online seller is selling 
something at below cost.  It gets tiresome, and it happens all the time. 
 When you asked for a price quote, I bet that was what was going through 
his mind, and he was just tired of it.  It was unfair to you, because he 
assumed you were doing to him the same thing that the previous 19 people 
did to him with the same question.  The fact is, retailers are bad at 
selling you things they don't stock.  If you want to help a retailer, buy 
something that they have in stock.  If you think they could improve their 
business by stocking something new, suggest it.  Buy tubes from your LBS. 
 Buy cables from your LBS.  Buy chains and brakepads from your LBS.  That 
stuff is on the shelf and it helps them out, alot.  

My question back to you, Hugh, is: if you wanted to buy the White 
Industries hub from them, regardless of price, why did you ask for the 
price?  Why didn't you say: "Hi, I'm Hugh.  I need a White Industries MI5 
rear hub.  I know MSRP is $323, and I can order it direct from White 
Industries, but I'd rather put the money in your register.  Do you want to 
order it for me?"  I bet you would not have gotten attitude, and it would 
have been a very pleasant transaction.  That's exactly what I do when I 
need Schmidt hubs.  I call Riv and say "Hi, it's Bill.  I need a SON Delux. 
 Should I order ti from Peter White, or do you want to sell it to me?"  I 
always buy my White Industries stuff and Paul stuff from Mike Varley at 
Black Mountain Cycles.  He doesn't always have exactly what I need in 
stock, but Mike loves White Industries and Paul, and they love Mike. 
 Everyone is happy that I put my money in Mike's register.  He's a 75 
minute drive away from me, but it's a nice drive and Mike has a nice couch 
and usually offers me a beer.  Sometimes I feel a little bit like a sucker 
when I see folks discounting Paul stuff at half-retail, but I try to get 
over it. 

Bill two-cents-is-all-it's-worth Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA


On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 9:27:53 AM UTC-8, Hugh Smitham wrote:
>
> I agree.
>
> I get that running a bike store is hard work and the margin's are tough, 
> what I don't get is when you ask a retailer how much they can get a White 
> Industries hub for you? And they give you negative attitude for even asking 
> the question. In this case I ended up getting the hub from a euro retailer 
> and saved some money. But what the retailer didn't realize was I was ready 
> to just have them order the part regardless. Why because I was hoping to 
> support them. Attitude goes a long way! Now when I think of buying locally 
> or having some work done I think twice about whether I want to patronage 
> their shop.
>
> ~Hugh
>
> “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep 
> moving.” ― Albert Einstein
>
> http://velocipeedemusings.com/
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Patrick Moore  > wrote:
>
>> A shitty attitude is a damn' good way to go out of business in the bike 
>> retail business! Fortunately (at least for me in my area, ABQ, NM) there 
>> are some very good shops near me: Fat Tire and Stevie's to name the 2 best, 
>> and High Desert is OK if you get good with the owners.
>>
>> From my own experience, some shops were started by cycling afficionados 
>> who loved bikes but didn't love retail or service, and some were staffed 
>> largely by youngster wannabees with attitudes. 
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 12:37 AM, Hugh Smitham > > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> [I] try and shop locally as best I can. Also for the current build I'm 
>>> doing most of the parts wouldn't even be available at a LBS. And the one's 
>>> I've gone to have a shitty attitude. 
>>>
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>> .
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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Matt C.]

I remember when I first got into bikes I befriended the owner of my local LBS. 
I think the shop was under a year old at the time. The owner was a great guy 
and was very patient with me, a new cyclist. One time I came in with new parts 
on my bike that I mentioned I bought online. He kindly and politely asked if I 
would at least attempt to buy from him in the future to see if he could match 
or get close to an online price. 

It was then it clicked that where I shopped for parts could affect hIs business 
positively or negatively. 

Free market it is. You can buy from wherever you choose. Just remember that you 
support whoever you buy from. So buy from places you want to still see around 
in another 10 years. 

Matt Cook
Bristol, RI

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Hugh Smitham]

I agree.

I get that running a bike store is hard work and the margin's are tough,
what I don't get is when you ask a retailer how much they can get a White
Industries hub for you? And they give you negative attitude for even asking
the question. In this case I ended up getting the hub from a euro retailer
and saved some money. But what the retailer didn't realize was I was ready
to just have them order the part regardless. Why because I was hoping to
support them. Attitude goes a long way! Now when I think of buying locally
or having some work done I think twice about whether I want to patronage
their shop.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipeedemusings.com/



On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> A shitty attitude is a damn' good way to go out of business in the bike
> retail business! Fortunately (at least for me in my area, ABQ, NM) there
> are some very good shops near me: Fat Tire and Stevie's to name the 2 best,
> and High Desert is OK if you get good with the owners.
>
> From my own experience, some shops were started by cycling afficionados
> who loved bikes but didn't love retail or service, and some were staffed
> largely by youngster wannabees with attitudes.
>
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 12:37 AM, Hugh Smitham 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> [I] try and shop locally as best I can. Also for the current build I'm
>> doing most of the parts wouldn't even be available at a LBS. And the one's
>> I've gone to have a shitty attitude.
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Patrick Moore]

A shitty attitude is a damn' good way to go out of business in the bike
retail business! Fortunately (at least for me in my area, ABQ, NM) there
are some very good shops near me: Fat Tire and Stevie's to name the 2 best,
and High Desert is OK if you get good with the owners.

>From my own experience, some shops were started by cycling afficionados who
loved bikes but didn't love retail or service, and some were staffed
largely by youngster wannabees with attitudes.

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 12:37 AM, Hugh Smitham 
wrote:

>
> [I] try and shop locally as best I can. Also for the current build I'm
> doing most of the parts wouldn't even be available at a LBS. And the one's
> I've gone to have a shitty attitude.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Patrick Moore]

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 12:37 AM, Hugh Smitham 
wrote:

> Been there done that, meaning this type of discussion has popped up before
> and am glad to see a huge brouhaha hasn't developed. Personally Glen thanks
> for the heads up I bought two pair a silver pair for my A. Homer a bike
> which I paid Riv the full freight and a black pair of VP-001 for my New
> Bantam Adventure bike. Free shipping and both cost less than a single pair
> from Riv which I just noticed they've lowered from the usual $80 to $68.
>
> For the record I don't shop at Walmart, try and shop locally as best I
> can. Also for the current build I'm doing most of the parts wouldn't even
> be available at a LBS. And the one's I've gone to have a shitty attitude.
> Rivendell does have a great attitude but on some things the markup is too
> much. My wife is in retail and all the little one's are hurting.
>
> I will buy from Riv in the near future.
>
> ~Hugh
>
>
>
> On Saturday, February 11, 2017 at 1:29:09 PM UTC-8, Glen wrote:
>>
>> Steep and Cheap has VP-001 and Vice along with some others on sale right
>> now.
>>
>> $33 for the 001s and $30 for the Vices
>>
>> There was a discussion about the Shimano A530s on here a while ago, they
>> are on sale too.
>>
>> www.steepandcheap.com
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Philip Kim]

hahah this was a great response.

for me, my buying habits also seem to coincide with how much i want to keep 
changing parts round etc. the less I want to work on it, the more likely 
I'll just go to a shop and get them to order everything. a lot of the times 
it's worth it to get the bike to just build it up and handle everything (as 
long as you trust them and can afford it!). I got my Hunq through Gravel 
and Grind and was adamant about what I wanted, but after awhile changed a 
lot of parts around. wish I just let them handle the full build from the 
first place. oddly enough, it would've saved me time and money.

but a lot of the times, i have so many parts in my parts bin, that I just 
bring it and just pay for the labor and try to get a couple of accessories 
like tubes/chain lube/lights/etc.


On Monday, February 13, 2017 at 1:20:33 PM UTC-5, Reed Kennedy wrote:
>
> For whatever it's worth, I feel this list is a good place to share good 
> deals on things that others here might enjoy. I also feel like it's a good 
> place to remind people to support the company that introduced (some of ) us 
> to (some of) these products, and that helped bring us together here to talk 
> about bikes.
>
> Basically, I'm grateful for the largely constructive folks here, and the 
> way things currently works (discussion with occasional consensus) seems 
> pretty good.
>
> If anything, even a bit more kindness might occasionally do us well, but 
> compared to the rest of the internet? Well, I think we do ok.
>
>
> Reed
>
> On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 9:20 AM, Garth > 
> wrote:
>
>> You're fine for posting as you did Glen :)  This is an open group, for 
>> "enthusiasts", not dictators.
>>
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>>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Reed Kennedy]

For whatever it's worth, I feel this list is a good place to share good
deals on things that others here might enjoy. I also feel like it's a good
place to remind people to support the company that introduced (some of ) us
to (some of) these products, and that helped bring us together here to talk
about bikes.

Basically, I'm grateful for the largely constructive folks here, and the
way things currently works (discussion with occasional consensus) seems
pretty good.

If anything, even a bit more kindness might occasionally do us well, but
compared to the rest of the internet? Well, I think we do ok.


Reed

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 9:20 AM, Garth  wrote:

> You're fine for posting as you did Glen :)  This is an open group, for
> "enthusiasts", not dictators.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[John A. Bennett]

"One meteorologist remarked that if the theory were correct, one flap of a sea 
gull 's wings would be enough to alter 
the course of the weather forever. The controversy has not yet been 
settled, but the most recent evidence seems to favor the sea gulls."

*-Edward Norton Lorenz* (May 23, 1917 – April 16, 2008)

John at Rivelo in Portland



On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 9:35:44 PM UTC-8, Ray Varella wrote:
>
> I treat my favorite bike/parts sellers the same way I treat my local 
> hardware store. 
> I go there first. I want them to stay in business because they provide a 
> level of knowledge and courtesy that a big box or large anonymous online 
> seller does not. 
>
> When you deal with people who have invested decades in their chosen field, 
> there is intrinsic value included. 
> If we as a society, price shop those individuals out of business, they 
> won't get replaced. 
>
>
> Ray
> Vallejo CA
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Ray Varella]

I treat my favorite bike/parts sellers the same way I treat my local hardware 
store. 
I go there first. I want them to stay in business because they provide a level 
of knowledge and courtesy that a big box or large anonymous online seller does 
not. 

When you deal with people who have invested decades in their chosen field, 
there is intrinsic value included. 
If we as a society, price shop those individuals out of business, they won't 
get replaced. 


Ray
Vallejo CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Daniel D.]

well then guess it's nothing to get worked up about.  It's a great deal...

On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 7:37:36 PM UTC-8, Justin August wrote:
>
> To be fair: this price is not really rare or exclusive. If you check EBay 
> you'll see that everyone who isn't a small online bike shop is selling them 
> for below $50.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Justin August]

To be fair: this price is not really rare or exclusive. If you check EBay 
you'll see that everyone who isn't a small online bike shop is selling them for 
below $50. 

However, when Riv has stock I shop from them if the price differential is less 
than 20% or so. But when it's literally 70% off? I don't know. 

-Justin, with 2 cents +/- 20%

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Garth]

  From my understand large retailers have contracts with shippers.  The 
details are unknown to the public but I don't think it is the same as a 
per-shipment deal like a small business and the public get. Like some sort 
of bulk deal agreed upon. So looking at their shipping costs from a 
perspective outside of this contractual deal it could be seen as a 
"subsidy" because you would be comparing it to the public and small 
business per-shipment basis. This may or may not be the actual case as the 
rules of the contracts are unknown, so either way it's a guess.


 
On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 1:47:17 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>
> Mark: do you mean our subsidized roads and motor vehicle infrastructure, 
> or do you go further than this? I'm curious how far non-transportation 
> money helps pay for transportation.
>
> On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 7:59 AM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> In the bigger picture, this constant drive toward the *apparent* 
>> cheapest price, the reliance on subsidized shipping (yes, even at the 
>> increasing shipping, it's all subsidized) 
>>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: PSA: VP Pedals on sale

[Patrick Moore]

Mark: do you mean our subsidized roads and motor vehicle infrastructure, or
do you go further than this? I'm curious how far non-transportation money
helps pay for transportation.

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 7:59 AM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

>
>
> In the bigger picture, this constant drive toward the *apparent* cheapest
> price, the reliance on subsidized shipping (yes, even at the increasing
> shipping, it's all subsidized)
>

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**
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
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*It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart

*Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle

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