Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Ray]

Simpliphi has been around since 2002, so they actually are older than 
their 10 year old warranty.  Most other companies can't make that 
claim.  As far as reliability, each 3.8 kWh is independent, so you can 
just shut down a bad unit and send it in for repair. I'm building 
systems with 4 to 6 units usually.


  I too have long term questions, especially about corrosion in marine 
environments, and long term issues with electronics such as capacitors 
drying out. I think the BMS may go out befor the projected 8000 cycles 
to 100% DOD.


I've been a part of the solar experiment since the 80s, and we've come a 
very long ways, which is amazing.  For all the questions we have, lead 
acid is definitely going to be come obsolete in our life times, so the 
sooner we all get savvy with newer technologies the better.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/23/20 7:36 PM, Bradley Bassett wrote:
Discover Battery has been around since just after WWII. I think that 
since each Li battery is native to the system voltage, the way to get 
some redundancy is to simply have more than one battery, most systems 
will anyway. Then if one fails you can use the other ones until the 
failed one is replaced or fixed. A lead battery would be less prone to 
catastrophic failure, alkaline batteries even more so if you can 
handle the cost and other issues, so there is something to be said for 
that. I have multiple inverters and battery banks and it has come in 
handy when there are failures (inverters).


Brad

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 3:53 PM Jerry Shafer > wrote:


Blue planet has money behind them and already years of
manufacturing, many more years then some of the other
manufacturers out there
Jerry

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:06 PM frenergy mailto:frene...@psln.com>> wrote:

Wrenchers,

         I seem to continue to have my foot stuck in the past
regarding off-grid.  Off -grid seems to have more of an
element of a
need for reliability, redundancy, klugability.  Believe me L-ion
batteries and especially the "total units" like the:

https://simpliphipower.com/product/access-sol-ark/

are beautiful answers to "buy it connect up the cables and
forget it",
no maintenance to boot.  I want one. But Yikes, many of these
companies
are new, which will survive well into their warranty period? 
Its a
double-edge swordif we don't transition into the L-ion
world, how
will they survive?

         Also, if the charge controller, battery cell (in
2 volt
cell battery pack), fan or inverter fails in a more
conventional system,
there's probably a go-around spare whatever in stock (or the
failed 2
volt cell can be cabled around waiting for a new cell). Maybe
all I'm
asking is how field serviceable is a failed L-ion battery or
its BMS? or
the total units like above? Are there failures? maybe too soon
to know.

         Go ahead, beat me with a stick, maybe I'll learn
something.

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Bradley Bassett]

Discover Battery has been around since just after WWII. I think that since
each Li battery is native to the system voltage, the way to get some
redundancy is to simply have more than one battery, most systems will
anyway. Then if one fails you can use the other ones until the failed one
is replaced or fixed. A lead battery would be less prone to catastrophic
failure, alkaline batteries even more so if you can handle the cost and
other issues, so there is something to be said for that. I have multiple
inverters and battery banks and it has come in handy when there are
failures (inverters).

Brad

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 3:53 PM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> Blue planet has money behind them and already years of manufacturing, many
> more years then some of the other manufacturers out there
> Jerry
>
> On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:06 PM frenergy  wrote:
>
>> Wrenchers,
>>
>>  I seem to continue to have my foot stuck in the past
>> regarding off-grid.  Off -grid seems to have more of an element of a
>> need for reliability, redundancy, klugability.  Believe me L-ion
>> batteries and especially the "total units" like the:
>>
>> https://simpliphipower.com/product/access-sol-ark/
>>
>> are beautiful answers to "buy it connect up the cables and forget it",
>> no maintenance to boot.  I want one. But Yikes, many of these companies
>> are new, which will survive well into their warranty period?  Its a
>> double-edge swordif we don't transition into the L-ion world, how
>> will they survive?
>>
>>  Also, if the charge controller, battery cell (in 2 volt
>> cell battery pack), fan or inverter fails in a more conventional system,
>> there's probably a go-around spare whatever in stock (or the failed 2
>> volt cell can be cabled around waiting for a new cell).  Maybe all I'm
>> asking is how field serviceable is a failed L-ion battery or its BMS? or
>> the total units like above? Are there failures? maybe too soon to know.
>>
>>  Go ahead, beat me with a stick, maybe I'll learn something.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> Feather River Solar Electric
>> Bill Battagin, Owner
>> 4291 Nelson St.
>> Taylorsville, CA 95983
>> 530.284.7849
>> CA Lic 874049
>> www.frenergy.net
>>
>>
>> --
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jerry Shafer]

Blue planet has money behind them and already years of manufacturing, many
more years then some of the other manufacturers out there
Jerry

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 2:06 PM frenergy  wrote:

> Wrenchers,
>
>  I seem to continue to have my foot stuck in the past
> regarding off-grid.  Off -grid seems to have more of an element of a
> need for reliability, redundancy, klugability.  Believe me L-ion
> batteries and especially the "total units" like the:
>
> https://simpliphipower.com/product/access-sol-ark/
>
> are beautiful answers to "buy it connect up the cables and forget it",
> no maintenance to boot.  I want one. But Yikes, many of these companies
> are new, which will survive well into their warranty period?  Its a
> double-edge swordif we don't transition into the L-ion world, how
> will they survive?
>
>  Also, if the charge controller, battery cell (in 2 volt
> cell battery pack), fan or inverter fails in a more conventional system,
> there's probably a go-around spare whatever in stock (or the failed 2
> volt cell can be cabled around waiting for a new cell).  Maybe all I'm
> asking is how field serviceable is a failed L-ion battery or its BMS? or
> the total units like above? Are there failures? maybe too soon to know.
>
>  Go ahead, beat me with a stick, maybe I'll learn something.
>
> Bill
>
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.7849
> CA Lic 874049
> www.frenergy.net
>
>
> --
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Darryl Thayer]

Hi David, I have used "Iron Edison" they will custom build a LiFe PO
battery to your specifications
There may be a way to combine LiFe and Pb acid, using the LiFe PO for
cycling and the Pb for high energy.
If cycling is a smaller portion of the load.

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 3:00 PM David Katz  wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour
> 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge
> controllers.
> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi
> batteries.
> Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with
> the Outback system.
> Thanks,
> David Katz
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Bill,

I too have the same issues and the only reliable (long term) way offgrid
is to have both chemistries. You get the best of the new battery types
(partial Soc tolerant) and the reliability of a a LA battery without any
electronics adding  new ways to lose power. By having both hooked up to
their own inverter you get redundancy and more days of autonomy. It costs
more and people need training but peace of mind is very good thing. Good
for the user and good for the practitioner. 

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:06:08 -0700, frenergy  wrote:
> Wrenchers,
> 
>              I seem to continue to have my foot stuck in the past 
> regarding off-grid.  Off -grid seems to have more of an element of a 
> need for reliability, redundancy, klugability.  Believe me L-ion 
> batteries and especially the "total units" like the:
> 
> https://simpliphipower.com/product/access-sol-ark/
> 
> are beautiful answers to "buy it connect up the cables and forget it", 
> no maintenance to boot.  I want one. But Yikes, many of these companies 
> are new, which will survive well into their warranty period?  Its a 
> double-edge swordif we don't transition into the L-ion world, how 
> will they survive?
> 
>              Also, if the charge controller, battery cell (in 2 volt
> cell battery pack), fan or inverter fails in a more conventional system,

> there's probably a go-around spare whatever in stock (or the failed 2 
> volt cell can be cabled around waiting for a new cell).  Maybe all I'm 
> asking is how field serviceable is a failed L-ion battery or its BMS? or

> the total units like above? Are there failures? maybe too soon to know.
> 
>              Go ahead, beat me with a stick, maybe I'll learn something.
> 
> Bill
> 
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.7849
> CA Lic 874049
> www.frenergy.net
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[frenergy]

Wrenchers,

            I seem to continue to have my foot stuck in the past 
regarding off-grid.  Off -grid seems to have more of an element of a 
need for reliability, redundancy, klugability.  Believe me L-ion 
batteries and especially the "total units" like the:


https://simpliphipower.com/product/access-sol-ark/

are beautiful answers to "buy it connect up the cables and forget it", 
no maintenance to boot.  I want one. But Yikes, many of these companies 
are new, which will survive well into their warranty period?  Its a 
double-edge swordif we don't transition into the L-ion world, how 
will they survive?


            Also, if the charge controller, battery cell (in 2 volt 
cell battery pack), fan or inverter fails in a more conventional system, 
there's probably a go-around spare whatever in stock (or the failed 2 
volt cell can be cabled around waiting for a new cell).  Maybe all I'm 
asking is how field serviceable is a failed L-ion battery or its BMS? or 
the total units like above? Are there failures? maybe too soon to know.


            Go ahead, beat me with a stick, maybe I'll learn something.

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Kent Osterberg]

Ray,

I agree it is a kludgey way to accomplish a low battery cut off. But, it 
doesn't change the no load draw issue. No load draw is still a problem 
even if the normal low battery cut off adjustment has enough range. At 
least with most lithium batteries there is a secondary shutoff.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar

On 3/23/2020 9:13 AM, Ray wrote:


That was our kludgey plan, if Schneider can't do a firmware update.  
The issue I have with that, is the no load draw of the inverter is 
still 25 watts, so eventually it could still pull the batteries into 
full shutdown.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/23/20 10:30 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote:
I like that approach, Jay. Great idea. It gets the job done and is 
self contained - using only the features of the inverter. The remote 
power off could still be used with another remote switch. If there 
aren't enough aux output ports in the system, one could add a 
Morningstar relay driver.


None-the-less, considering that Scneider Electric has made a lot of 
firmware changes to make the inverter compatible with lithium 
batteries, it is baffling that the low battery cutout hasn't been 
addressed.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 3/22/2020 6:18 PM, Jay wrote:

Hi Kent,

Yes that’s what I mean.

According to the manual I’ve got, up to 52v for the low, 64 for the 
high.

Which is high enough to do what the simpliphi needs.

Jay



On Mar 22, 2020, at 5:37 PM, Kent Osterberg  
wrote:


 Jay,

Do you mean: use the Aux relay to activate the Remote Power Off? 
What is the low battery setting range for the Aux relay? I don't 
see it in the manual.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 3/22/2020 4:04 PM, Jay wrote:

Ray,
Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC 
output at what ever voltage you want?


Jay





On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray  wrote:



That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to 
catch the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is 
still enough reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge 
controllers in operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start.  With 
Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it still requires 
manual reset.   This isn't theoretical, we have been having 
serious trouble with a system because of Schneider's inability to 
set the LVD above 48 v. Also setting the voltage higher (lower 
DOD) extends the cycle life of these batteries. Otherwise, I love 
the stable 51 volts of Li+, even under load.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Wrenches
Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC 
line that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. 
In addition set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.


On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar 
mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>> wrote:


Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual
recommends 48V as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit
higher:

"Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10%
State of Charge)
BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1%
State of Charge)
Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage
correlations will vary.
We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher
LVD setting and adjust as necessary.
To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little
reserve “fuel in the tank”."

I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed
shut down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.

Allan

On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:


Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There
are not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above
48V. Which ones are you talking about please?

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net  text
209 813 0060*

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar  
wrote:


Hi Ray,

Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at
44V LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was
firmware back in its day that got older units updated.
Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products.

XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.

XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It
would be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one
needs to be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak
LBCO also.

I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both
Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this
helps.

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines
don't" 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jerry Shafer]

What ever battery you may decide on make sure it's both Fire rated and UL
listed. I have had customers require this from their insurance companies
Jerry
NABCEP solar inspector
Jerry

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, 8:06 AM Sandra Herrera  wrote:

> Hi Ray,
>
> We have been working with most of the leading lithium manufacturers for
> several years now.  Some have already implemented closed-loop integration
> such as Discover, other we are working with open-loop integration with
> Simpliphi, Fortress, Blue Ion, others.
>
> For the manufactures that are open loop, we have done extensive work with
> them, which included lab testing as well as support with the documentation.
>
>
>
> I have personally supported most of the manufacturers listed above; this
> includes Simpliphi and support of their documentation, related to the
> Schneider Electric setting.
>
>
>
> With the Conext XW Pro we are moving to SOC for many of these settings,
> that will integrate better than using voltage. Additional work of
> integrating these manufactures using Gateway through Modbus communication.
>
> I know that at times it seems very simple to make a programming change,
> but we as the manufacturers must look at the full picture of all the
> applications of the product and not create a conflict. An alternative would
> be a Simpliphi specifically firmware, this sounds very simple, but it is
> cost-prohibitive, as the product would have to be UL tested again. Each
> time we have to run a product through UL it will add to the cost of the
> product. It is a balance between the feature and staying competitive.
>
>
>
> I hope this help to cl;arify, let me know if you have any question
>
>
>
> Sandra Herrera
>
> sandra.herr...@se.com
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
> Behalf Of *Ray
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:46 AM
> *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries
>
>
>
> [External email: Use caution with links and attachments]
> --
>
>
>
> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently
> gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, its simple.  Each 3.8
> kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and
> are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use an insulated
> 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0
> cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with
> recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback).
>
> Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which
> basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.  Their tech
> support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking forward to them as one of
> the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into
> their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct
> this problem.
>
> Ray Walters
>
> Remote Solar
>
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour
> 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge
> controllers.
>
> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi
> batteries.
>
> Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with
> the Outback system.
>
> Thanks,
>
> David Katz
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Ray]

That was our kludgey plan, if Schneider can't do a firmware update.  The 
issue I have with that, is the no load draw of the inverter is still 25 
watts, so eventually it could still pull the batteries into full shutdown.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/23/20 10:30 AM, Kent Osterberg wrote:
I like that approach, Jay. Great idea. It gets the job done and is 
self contained - using only the features of the inverter. The remote 
power off could still be used with another remote switch. If there 
aren't enough aux output ports in the system, one could add a 
Morningstar relay driver.


None-the-less, considering that Scneider Electric has made a lot of 
firmware changes to make the inverter compatible with lithium 
batteries, it is baffling that the low battery cutout hasn't been 
addressed.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 3/22/2020 6:18 PM, Jay wrote:

Hi Kent,

Yes that’s what I mean.

According to the manual I’ve got, up to 52v for the low, 64 for the 
high.

Which is high enough to do what the simpliphi needs.

Jay




On Mar 22, 2020, at 5:37 PM, Kent Osterberg  wrote:

 Jay,

Do you mean: use the Aux relay to activate the Remote Power Off? 
What is the low battery setting range for the Aux relay? I don't see 
it in the manual.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 3/22/2020 4:04 PM, Jay wrote:

Ray,
Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC 
output at what ever voltage you want?


Jay





On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray  wrote:



That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to 
catch the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still 
enough reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge 
controllers in operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start. With 
Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it still requires 
manual reset.   This isn't theoretical, we have been having 
serious trouble with a system because of Schneider's inability to 
set the LVD above 48 v.  Also setting the voltage higher (lower 
DOD) extends the cycle life of these batteries.  Otherwise, I love 
the stable 51 volts of Li+, even under load.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Wrenches
Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC 
line that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. 
In addition set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.


On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar 
mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>> wrote:


Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual
recommends 48V as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit
higher:

"Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10%
State of Charge)
BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1%
State of Charge)
Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage
correlations will vary.
We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD
setting and adjust as necessary.
To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little
reserve “fuel in the tank”."

I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed
shut down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.

Allan

On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:


Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There
are not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above
48V. Which ones are you talking about please?

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net  text 209
813 0060*

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar  
wrote:


Hi Ray,

Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at
44V LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was
firmware back in its day that got older units updated.
Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products.

XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.

XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It
would be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one
needs to be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak
LBCO also.

I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both
Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines
don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net  text
209 813 0060*

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray 
 wrote:

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the
pricing has recently gotten much more competitive.  As
it's names states, its simple.  Each 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Another way to buy more time with simplyphi would be to minimize LBCO
hysteresis voltage and LBCO delay time. This would shut down the inverter
sooner. They appear to be set at the defaults and could go lower. 

Dave
Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:06:10 +, Sandra Herrera 
wrote:  

Hi Ray, 

We have been working with most of the leading
lithium manufacturers for several years now. Some have already implemented
closed-loop integration such as Discover, other we are working with
open-loop integration with Simpliphi, Fortress, Blue Ion, others. 

For the
manufactures that are open loop, we have done extensive work with them,
which included lab testing as well as support with the documentation. 

I
have personally supported most of the manufacturers listed above; this
includes Simpliphi and support of their documentation, related to the
Schneider Electric setting. 

With the Conext XW Pro we are moving to SOC
for many of these settings, that will integrate better than using voltage.
Additional work of integrating these manufactures using Gateway through
Modbus communication. 

I know that at times it seems very simple to make a
programming change, but we as the manufacturers must look at the full
picture of all the applications of the product and not create a conflict.
An alternative would be a Simpliphi specifically firmware, this sounds very
simple, but it is cost-prohibitive, as the product would have to be UL
tested again. Each time we have to run a product through UL it will add to
the cost of the product. It is a balance between the feature and staying
competitive. 

I hope this help to cl;arify, let me know if you have any
question  

Sandra Herrera 

sandra.herr...@se.com 

FROM: RE-wrenches  ON
BEHALF OF Ray
 SENT: Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:46 AM
 TO:
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion
Batteries   

[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]

-

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the
pricing has recently gotten much more competitive. As it's names states,
its simple. Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top,
weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry
handles. We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel
conductors to the main 2/0 cable. No monitoring, but they do have an handy
setup guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer
(including Outback).  

Note to all: Schneider XW can still not set its LVD
above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.
Their tech support has been abysmal as well. We're looking forward to them
as one of the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources
into their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to
correct this problem.  
Ray Walters

Remote Solar

303 505-8760

On 3/20/20
3:59 PM, David Katz wrote: 

Hello Wrenches,   

I am working with some
people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion
battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge controllers.   

They
are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi
batteries.   

Does any one have any recommendations of which battery
functions best with the Outback system.   

Thanks,   

David Katz  


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Sandra Herrera]

Hi Ray,
We have been working with most of the leading lithium manufacturers for several 
years now.  Some have already implemented closed-loop integration such as 
Discover, other we are working with open-loop integration with Simpliphi, 
Fortress, Blue Ion, others.
For the manufactures that are open loop, we have done extensive work with them, 
which included lab testing as well as support with the documentation.

I have personally supported most of the manufacturers listed above; this 
includes Simpliphi and support of their documentation, related to the Schneider 
Electric setting.

With the Conext XW Pro we are moving to SOC for many of these settings, that 
will integrate better than using voltage. Additional work of integrating these 
manufactures using Gateway through Modbus communication.
I know that at times it seems very simple to make a programming change, but we 
as the manufacturers must look at the full picture of all the applications of 
the product and not create a conflict. An alternative would be a Simpliphi 
specifically firmware, this sounds very simple, but it is cost-prohibitive, as 
the product would have to be UL tested again. Each time we have to run a 
product through UL it will add to the cost of the product. It is a balance 
between the feature and staying competitive.

I hope this help to cl;arify, let me know if you have any question

Sandra Herrera
sandra.herr...@se.com

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Ray
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 8:46 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries


[External email: Use caution with links and attachments]





We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently gotten 
much more competitive.  As it's names states, its simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit 
has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit 
smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use an insulated 2 pole 
combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable.  No 
monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with recommended settings, 
specific for each manufacturer (including Outback).

Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which basically 
makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.  Their tech support has been 
abysmal as well.   We're looking forward to them as one of the larger companies 
in the business, to put additional resources into their engineering, and come 
out with at least a firmware update to correct this problem.

Ray Walters

Remote Solar

303 505-8760
On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:
Hello Wrenches,
I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 
volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge 
controllers.
They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi 
batteries.
Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with the 
Outback system.
Thanks,
David Katz



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Kent Osterberg]

I like that approach, Jay. Great idea. It gets the job done and is self 
contained - using only the features of the inverter. The remote power 
off could still be used with another remote switch. If there aren't 
enough aux output ports in the system, one could add a Morningstar relay 
driver.


None-the-less, considering that Scneider Electric has made a lot of 
firmware changes to make the inverter compatible with lithium batteries, 
it is baffling that the low battery cutout hasn't been addressed.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 3/22/2020 6:18 PM, Jay wrote:

Hi Kent,

Yes that’s what I mean.

According to the manual I’ve got, up to 52v for the low, 64 for the high.
Which is high enough to do what the simpliphi needs.

Jay




On Mar 22, 2020, at 5:37 PM, Kent Osterberg  wrote:

 Jay,

Do you mean: use the Aux relay to activate the Remote Power Off? What 
is the low battery setting range for the Aux relay? I don't see it in 
the manual.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 3/22/2020 4:04 PM, Jay wrote:

Ray,
Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC 
output at what ever voltage you want?


Jay





On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray  wrote:



That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to 
catch the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still 
enough reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge 
controllers in operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start.  With 
Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it still requires 
manual reset.   This isn't theoretical, we have been having serious 
trouble with a system because of Schneider's inability to set the 
LVD above 48 v. Also setting the voltage higher (lower DOD) extends 
the cycle life of these batteries.  Otherwise, I love the stable 51 
volts of Li+, even under load.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Wrenches
Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC 
line that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In 
addition set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.


On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar 
mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>> wrote:


Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends
48V as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher:

"Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10%
State of Charge)
BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1%
State of Charge)
Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage
correlations will vary.
We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD
setting and adjust as necessary.
To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little
reserve “fuel in the tank”."

I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut
down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.

Allan

On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:


Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There
are not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above
48V. Which ones are you talking about please?

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net  text 209
813 0060*

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar  
wrote:


Hi Ray,

Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at
44V LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was
firmware back in its day that got older units updated.
Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products.

XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.

XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It
would be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one
needs to be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak
LBCO also.

I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both
Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net  text 209
813 0060*

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray 
 wrote:

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing
has recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's
names states, its simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80
amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and
are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles. 
We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all
the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable.  No
monitoring, but they do have an 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jay]

Hi Kent,

Yes that’s what I mean. 

According to the manual I’ve got, up to 52v for the low, 64 for the high. 
Which is high enough to do what the simpliphi needs. 

Jay



> On Mar 22, 2020, at 5:37 PM, Kent Osterberg  wrote:
> 
>  Jay,
> 
> Do you mean: use the Aux relay to activate the Remote Power Off? What is the 
> low battery setting range for the Aux relay? I don't see it in the manual. 
> 
> Kent Osterberg
> Blue Mountain Solar
> 
> 
>> On 3/22/2020 4:04 PM, Jay wrote:
>> Ray, 
>> Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC output at 
>> what ever voltage you want?
>> 
>> Jay
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to catch the 
>>> beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still enough reserve 
>>> left to keep the monitoring and solar charge controllers in operation, and 
>>> avoid the dreaded dark start.  With Simpliphi, we don't have the dark 
>>> start, but it still requires manual reset.   This isn't theoretical, we 
>>> have been having serious trouble with a system because of Schneider's 
>>> inability to set the LVD above 48 v.  Also setting the voltage higher 
>>> (lower DOD) extends the cycle life of these batteries.  Otherwise, I love 
>>> the stable 51 volts of Li+, even under load.  
>>> 
>>> Ray Walters
>>> Remote Solar
>>> 303 505-8760
>>> On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
 Wrenches
 Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC line that 
 when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In addition set the 
 flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.
 
 On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar  
 wrote:
> Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V as 
> LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher:
> 
> "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State of 
> Charge)
> BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State of 
> Charge)
> Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations will 
> vary.
> We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD setting and 
> adjust as necessary.
> To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little reserve 
> “fuel in the tank”."
> 
> I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut down at 
> 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.
> 
> Allan
> 
>> On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:
>> Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.
>> 
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>> On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>>> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too 
>>> many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you 
>>> talking about please?
>>> 
>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> 
>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
>>> text 209 813 0060
 On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
  wrote:
 
 Hi Ray,
 
 Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and 
 the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day that 
 got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under 
 discontinued products.
 
 XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.
 
 XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my 
 guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they 
 are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.
 
 I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and 
 Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. 
 
 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
 "we go where powerlines don't"
 http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
 e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
 text 209 813 0060
 On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray  wrote:
 
 We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently 
 gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, its simple.  Each 
 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 
 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use 
 an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors 
 to the main 2/0 cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup 
 guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer 
 (including Outback). 
 
 Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which 
 basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.  Their tech 
 support 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Kent Osterberg]

Jay,

Do you mean: use the Aux relay to activate the Remote Power Off? What is 
the low battery setting range for the Aux relay? I don't see it in the 
manual.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 3/22/2020 4:04 PM, Jay wrote:

Ray,
Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC 
output at what ever voltage you want?


Jay





On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray  wrote:



That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to 
catch the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still 
enough reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge 
controllers in operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start.  With 
Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it still requires manual 
reset.   This isn't theoretical, we have been having serious trouble 
with a system because of Schneider's inability to set the LVD above 
48 v.  Also setting the voltage higher (lower DOD) extends the cycle 
life of these batteries.  Otherwise, I love the stable 51 volts of 
Li+, even under load.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Wrenches
Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC 
line that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In 
addition set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.


On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar 
mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>> wrote:


Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends
48V as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher:

"Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10%
State of Charge)
BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1%
State of Charge)
Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations
will vary.
We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD
setting and adjust as necessary.
To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little
reserve “fuel in the tank”."

I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut
down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.

Allan

On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:


Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are
not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V.
Which ones are you talking about please?

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net  text 209
813 0060*

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar   wrote:


Hi Ray,

Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V
LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back
in its day that got older units updated. Schneider still has
the firmware under discontinued products.

XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.

XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would
be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to
be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.

I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both
Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net  text 209
813 0060*

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray 
 wrote:

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing
has recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's names
states, its simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp
breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a
bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use
an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the
parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable.  No
monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with
recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer
(including Outback).

Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD
above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with most
Li+ batteries. Their tech support has been abysmal as
well.   We're looking forward to them as one of the
larger companies in the business, to put additional
resources into their engineering, and come out with at
least a firmware update to correct this problem.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:

Hello Wrenches,
I am working with some people that want to use a 20
kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jay]

Sorry about spell check

It should have read. 
Have you thought about...

> On Mar 22, 2020, at 4:04 PM, Jay  wrote:
> 
> 
> Ray, 
> Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC output at 
> what ever voltage you want?
> 
> Jay
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>> On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to catch the 
>> beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still enough reserve left 
>> to keep the monitoring and solar charge controllers in operation, and avoid 
>> the dreaded dark start.  With Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but 
>> it still requires manual reset.   This isn't theoretical, we have been 
>> having serious trouble with a system because of Schneider's inability to set 
>> the LVD above 48 v.  Also setting the voltage higher (lower DOD) extends the 
>> cycle life of these batteries.  Otherwise, I love the stable 51 volts of 
>> Li+, even under load.  
>> 
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>>> On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
>>> Wrenches
>>> Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC line that 
>>> when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In addition set the 
>>> flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar  
>>> wrote:
 Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V as 
 LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher:
 
 "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State of 
 Charge)
 BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State of 
 Charge)
 Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations will vary.
 We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD setting and 
 adjust as necessary.
 To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little reserve “fuel 
 in the tank”."
 
 I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut down at 
 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.
 
 Allan
 
> On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:
> Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too 
>> many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you 
>> talking about please?
>> 
>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> 
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
>> text 209 813 0060
>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Ray,
>>> 
>>> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and 
>>> the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day that 
>>> got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under 
>>> discontinued products.
>>> 
>>> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.
>>> 
>>> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my 
>>> guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they are 
>>> in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.
>>> 
>>> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and 
>>> Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. 
>>> 
>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
>>> text 209 813 0060
>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray  wrote:
>>> 
>>> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently 
>>> gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, its simple.  Each 
>>> 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 
>>> lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use 
>>> an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors 
>>> to the main 2/0 cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup 
>>> guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer 
>>> (including Outback). 
>>> 
>>> Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which 
>>> basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.  Their tech 
>>> support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking forward to them as 
>>> one of the larger companies in the business, to put additional 
>>> resources into their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware 
>>> update to correct this problem.  
>>> 
>>> Ray Walters
>>> Remote Solar
>>> 303 505-8760
>>> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:
>>> Hello Wrenches,
>>> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jay]

Ray, 
Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC output at 
what ever voltage you want?

Jay




> On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray  wrote:
> 
> 
> That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to catch the 
> beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still enough reserve left 
> to keep the monitoring and solar charge controllers in operation, and avoid 
> the dreaded dark start.  With Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it 
> still requires manual reset.   This isn't theoretical, we have been having 
> serious trouble with a system because of Schneider's inability to set the LVD 
> above 48 v.  Also setting the voltage higher (lower DOD) extends the cycle 
> life of these batteries.  Otherwise, I love the stable 51 volts of Li+, even 
> under load.  
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>> On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
>> Wrenches
>> Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC line that 
>> when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In addition set the 
>> flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.
>> 
>> On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar  
>> wrote:
>>> Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V as LBCO, 
>>> but also recommends setting it a bit higher:
>>> 
>>> "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State of Charge)
>>> BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State of Charge)
>>> Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations will vary.
>>> We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD setting and 
>>> adjust as necessary.
>>> To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little reserve “fuel 
>>> in the tank”."
>>> 
>>> I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut down at 44V, 
>>> leaving 1% left to reboot.
>>> 
>>> Allan
>>> 
 On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:
 Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.
 
 Ray Walters
 Remote Solar
 303 505-8760
 On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too 
> many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you 
> talking about please?
> 
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> 
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Ray,
>> 
>> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and 
>> the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day that got 
>> older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued 
>> products.
>> 
>> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.
>> 
>> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my 
>> guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they are 
>> in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.
>> 
>> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and 
>> Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. 
>> 
>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
>> text 209 813 0060
>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray  wrote:
>> 
>> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently 
>> gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, its simple.  Each 
>> 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 
>> lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use 
>> an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to 
>> the main 2/0 cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup 
>> guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer 
>> (including Outback). 
>> 
>> Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which 
>> basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.  Their tech 
>> support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking forward to them as one 
>> of the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources 
>> into their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to 
>> correct this problem.  
>> 
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:
>> Hello Wrenches,
>> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 
>> kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback 
>> FM charge controllers.
>> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi 
>> batteries.
>> Does any one have any recommendations of 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Ray]

That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to catch 
the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still enough 
reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge controllers in 
operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start.  With Simpliphi, we don't 
have the dark start, but it still requires manual reset.   This isn't 
theoretical, we have been having serious trouble with a system because 
of Schneider's inability to set the LVD above 48 v.  Also setting the 
voltage higher (lower DOD) extends the cycle life of these batteries.  
Otherwise, I love the stable 51 volts of Li+, even under load.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Wrenches
Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC line 
that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In addition 
set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.


On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote:


Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V
as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher:

"Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State
of Charge)
BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State
of Charge)
Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations
will vary.
We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD
setting and adjust as necessary.
To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little
reserve “fuel in the tank”."

I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut
down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.

Allan

On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:


Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are
not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which
ones are you talking about please?

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
 text 209 813 0060*

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
  wrote:


Hi Ray,

Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V
LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back
in its day that got older units updated. Schneider still has
the firmware under discontinued products.

XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.

XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would
be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be
sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.

I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback
and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net  text 209 813
0060*

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray 
 wrote:

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has
recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's names
states, its simple. Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker
built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit
smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use an
insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel
conductors to the main 2/0 cable.  No monitoring, but they
do have an handy setup guide with recommended settings,
specific for each manufacturer (including Outback).

Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above
48, which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+
batteries.  Their tech support has been abysmal as well.  
We're looking forward to them as one of the larger
companies in the business, to put additional resources into
their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware
update to correct this problem.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:

Hello Wrenches,
I am working with some people that want to use a 20
kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with
an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge controllers.
They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle
Born or SimpliPhi batteries.
Does any one have any recommendations of which battery
functions best with the Outback system.
Thanks,
David Katz

___
List 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches
Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC line that
when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In addition set the
flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.

On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar 
wrote:

> Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V as
> LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher:
>
> "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State of
> Charge)
> BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State of
> Charge)
> Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations will vary.
> We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD setting and
> adjust as necessary.
> To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little reserve “fuel
> in the tank”."
>
> I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut down at
> 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.
>
> Allan
> On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:
>
> Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>
> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too many
> batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you talking
> about please?
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*
>
> *"we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>   wrote:
>
> Hi Ray,
>
> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and the
> range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day that got older
> units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products.
>
> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.
>
> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my guess
> that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they are in
> Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.
>
> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and
> Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray 
>  wrote:
>
> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently
> gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, its simple.  Each 3.8
> kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and
> are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use an insulated
> 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0
> cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with
> recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback).
>
> Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which
> basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.  Their tech
> support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking forward to them as one of
> the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into
> their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct
> this problem.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:
>
> Hello Wrenches,
> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour
> 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge
> controllers.
> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi
> batteries.
> Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with
> the Outback system.
> Thanks,
> David Katz
>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Ray]

The possibility of dark start and 30% higher cost are 2 reasons we have 
preferred Simpliphi lately. Simpliphi just requires resetting its 
breaker on top of the battery.  Also the Simpliphi allows more layouts, 
so it doesn't stick out into the room.  We have one customer that has a 
system with each, and so far they prefer the Simpliphi over the Blue 
Ion.  Both are high quality solutions, but being able to afford more kWh 
of storage solves many issues.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/22/20 3:14 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote:


Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V as 
LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher:


"Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State of 
Charge)
BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State of 
Charge)
Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations will 
vary.
We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD setting 
and adjust as necessary.
To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little reserve 
“fuel in the tank”."


I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut down at 
44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.


Allan

On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:


Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not 
too many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones 
are you talking about please?


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net  text 209 
813 0060*


On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
 wrote:



Hi Ray,

Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO 
and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day 
that got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware 
under discontinued products.


XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.

XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my 
guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they 
are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.


I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and 
Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray  wrote:

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has
recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states,
its simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into
the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16
but with carry handles. We use an insulated 2 pole combiner
block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0
cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide
with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer
(including Outback).

Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48,
which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. 
Their tech support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking
forward to them as one of the larger companies in the business,
to put additional resources into their engineering, and come
out with at least a firmware update to correct this problem.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:

Hello Wrenches,
I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour
to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback
Radian and Outback FM charge controllers.
They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born
or SimpliPhi batteries.
Does any one have any recommendations of which battery
functions best with the Outback system.
Thanks,
David Katz

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Sindelar Solar]

Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V as 
LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher:


"Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State of Charge)
BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State of Charge)
Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations will vary.
We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD setting 
and adjust as necessary.
To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little reserve 
“fuel in the tank”."


I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut down at 
44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.


Allan

On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:


Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too 
many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you 
talking about please?


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net  text 209 
813 0060*


On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
 wrote:



Hi Ray,

Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO 
and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day 
that got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under 
discontinued products.


XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.

XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my 
guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they 
are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.


I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and 
Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray  wrote:

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has
recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states,
its simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into
the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16
but with carry handles.  We use an insulated 2 pole combiner
block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable. 
No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with
recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including
Outback).

Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48,
which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. 
Their tech support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking
forward to them as one of the larger companies in the business,
to put additional resources into their engineering, and come out
with at least a firmware update to correct this problem.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:

Hello Wrenches,
I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour
to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback
Radian and Outback FM charge controllers.
They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born
or SimpliPhi batteries.
Does any one have any recommendations of which battery
functions best with the Outback system.
Thanks,
David Katz

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches
Blue ion is a better solution, no extra parts cables or racking, all part
of the "system" and works very well
Jerry

On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 11:44 AM Ray  wrote:

> Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>
> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too many
> batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you talking
> about please?
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*
>
> *"we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>   wrote:
>
> Hi Ray,
>
> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and the
> range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day that got older
> units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products.
>
> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.
>
> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my guess
> that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they are in
> Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.
>
> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and
> Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray 
>  wrote:
>
> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently
> gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, its simple.  Each 3.8
> kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and
> are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use an insulated
> 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0
> cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with
> recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback).
>
> Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which
> basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.  Their tech
> support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking forward to them as one of
> the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into
> their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct
> this problem.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:
>
> Hello Wrenches,
> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour
> 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge
> controllers.
> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi
> batteries.
> Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with
> the Outback system.
> Thanks,
> David Katz
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Ray]

Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too 
many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you 
talking about please?


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net  text 209 813 
0060*


On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
 wrote:



Hi Ray,

Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO 
and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day 
that got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under 
discontinued products.


XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.

XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my 
guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they 
are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.


I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and 
Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray  wrote:

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has
recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, its
simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the
top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but
with carry handles.  We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to
run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable.  No
monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with
recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including
Outback).

Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48,
which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. 
Their tech support has been abysmal as well. We're looking
forward to them as one of the larger companies in the business,
to put additional resources into their engineering, and come out
with at least a firmware update to correct this problem.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:

Hello Wrenches,
I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour
to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback
Radian and Outback FM charge controllers.
They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or
SimpliPhi batteries.
Does any one have any recommendations of which battery
functions best with the Outback system.
Thanks,
David Katz

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jay]

Yea weird times. Ha

I guess Zeke figured it out, oh well

I’ve got 4 meters, and they agree if and only if they get to full every few 
days. If it goes longer they get further off. And I’m talking multiple 
trimetrics all set exactly the same. 

Given the flat curve of LipO, I don’t know if I trust external monitoring. 
But you might have better data which I’d like to hear. Jay



> On Mar 21, 2020, at 11:44 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jay,
> 
> Been awhile. Pretty weird times. Really nice to be off the grid, I think you 
> would agree!
> 
> The answer to your question is you don't know if it is accurate. I would call 
> the tweaking of the numbers programmed into Flexnet or the Schneider bat mon 
> :"for indication only" You can observe it and just tweek/compare to the 
> battery internal Soc.
> 
>  The external monitor will have to have the shunt and all the other stuff 
> that makes it a PITA.
> 
> It does get basic Soc data and battery temp out to Optics and Insight2. 
> Simply Phi had a nice paper on how to tweek/set Schneider and Outback bat 
> mons. I have used that. The good news is that LFP is pretty stable (over 
> time) and would not have the error stacking up like LA does in Soc.
> 
> What happened to your friend with needing Insight2 advice? He probably 
> figured it out as it is not that hard
> 
> 
> 
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
> 
> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:08:32 -0700, Jay  wrote:
> > Hi Dave,
> > 
> > How do you know that the OB FNDC  is correct vs the internal BMS?
> > 
> > Jay
> > 
> > Peltz Power. 
> > 
> > 
> >> On Mar 21, 2020, at 10:02 AM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:
> >> 
> >> Fortress EVaults have their own lcd screen with Soc, but Dave is right,
> >> it's not as accurate on RE Optics. We do get a battery reading without
> >> any
> >> add-ons, they are just usually off up to 10% from each other.
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Hi David,
> >>> 
> >>> They all work but none of them can get Soc and a few other
> >>> things out to Optics unless you add an external Outback Battery monitor.
> >>> Outback has said they plan to have their own Lithium battery out in the
> >>> Fall.
> >>> 
> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> >>> "we go where powerlines
> >>> don't"
> >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
> >>> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
> >>> [2]
> >>> text 209 813 0060
> >>> 
> >>> On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:59:51 -0700, David Katz
> >>> wrote:   Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to use
> >>> a
> >>> 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback
> >>> Radian
> >>> and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using Discover,
> >>> Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any
> >>> recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system.
> >>> Thanks, David Katz
> >>> 
> >>> Links:
> >>> --
> >>> [1]
> >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> >>> [2] mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
> >>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too
many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you
talking about please? 

DAVE ANGELINI OFFGRID SOLAR  
"we go where
powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net [2]
text 209 813 0060

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21
-0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar  wrote:  

Hi Ray, 

Which XW? There are
3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V.
There also was firmware back in its day that got older units updated.
Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products. 

XW+ is
default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc. 

XW pro is running downstairs and
I will take a look. It would be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I
think one needs to be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO
also. 

I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and
Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.   
Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[3]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net [4]
text 209 813 0060

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020
11:46:21 -0400, Ray  wrote:  

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi,
the pricing has recently gotten much more competitive. As it's names
states, its simple. Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the
top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry
handles. We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel
conductors to the main 2/0 cable. No monitoring, but they do have an handy
setup guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer
(including Outback).  

Note to all: Schneider XW can still not set its LVD
above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.
Their tech support has been abysmal as well. We're looking forward to them
as one of the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources
into their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to
correct this problem.  
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
 On 3/20/20
3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:   Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people
that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery
with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge controllers. They are
considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries.
Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with
the Outback system. Thanks, David Katz 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Hi Jay,

Been awhile. Pretty weird times. Really nice to be off the
grid, I think you would agree!

The answer to your question is you don't
know if it is accurate. I would call the tweaking of the numbers programmed
into Flexnet or the Schneider bat mon :"for indication only" You can
observe it and just tweek/compare to the battery internal Soc.

 The
external monitor will have to have the shunt and all the other stuff that
makes it a PITA.

It does get basic Soc data and battery temp out to Optics
and Insight2. Simply Phi had a nice paper on how to tweek/set Schneider and
Outback bat mons. I have used that. The good news is that LFP is pretty
stable (over time) and would not have the error stacking up like LA does in
Soc.

What happened to your friend with needing Insight2 advice? He
probably figured it out as it is not that hard

Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar
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don't"
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text 209 813 0060

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:08:32 -0700,
Jay  wrote:
> Hi Dave,
> 
> How do you know that the OB FNDC is correct vs
the internal BMS?
> 
> Jay
> 
> Peltz Power. 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 21, 2020, at
10:02 AM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:
>> 
>> Fortress EVaults have
their own lcd screen with Soc, but Dave is right,
>> it's not as accurate
on RE Optics. We do get a battery reading without
>> any
>> add-ons, they
are just usually off up to 10% from each other.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi David,
>>>

>>> They all work but none of them can get Soc and a few other
>>> things
out to Optics unless you add an external Outback Battery monitor.
>>>
Outback has said they plan to have their own Lithium battery out in the
>>>
Fall.
>>> 
>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> "we go where powerlines
>>>
don't"
>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
>>> e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net
>>> [2]
>>> text 209 813 0060
>>> 
>>> On Fri, 20 Mar
2020 12:59:51 -0700, David Katz
>>> wrote: Hello Wrenches, I am working
with some people that want to use
>>> a
>>> 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48
volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback
>>> Radian
>>> and Outback FM
charge controllers. They are considering using Discover,
>>> Blue-Ion,
Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any
>>>
recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback
system.
>>> Thanks, David Katz
>>> 
>>> Links:
>>> --
>>> [1]
>>>
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>>> [2]
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
>>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Hi Ray, 

Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V
LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day
that got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under
discontinued products. 

XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.


XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my guess
that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they are in
Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also. 

I am not plugging Schneider and
have done work for both Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope
this helps.   
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray  wrote:   


We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently
gotten much more competitive. As it's names states, its simple. Each 3.8
kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and
are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles. We use an insulated 2
pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0
cable. No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with
recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback). 


Note to all: Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which
basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. Their tech support
has been abysmal as well. We're looking forward to them as one of the
larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into their
engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct this
problem.  
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
 On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David
Katz wrote:   Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to
use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback
Radian and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using
Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have
any recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback
system. Thanks, David Katz 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jay]

Hi Dave,

How do you know that the OB FNDC  is correct vs the internal BMS?

Jay

Peltz Power. 


> On Mar 21, 2020, at 10:02 AM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:
> 
> Fortress EVaults have their own lcd screen with Soc, but Dave is right,
> it's not as accurate on RE Optics. We do get a battery reading without any
> add-ons, they are just usually off up to 10% from each other.
>> 
>> 
>> Hi David,
>> 
>> They all work but none of them can get Soc and a few other
>> things out to Optics unless you add an external Outback Battery monitor.
>> Outback has said they plan to have their own Lithium battery out in the
>> Fall.
>> 
>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines
>> don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
>> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
>> [2]
>> text 209 813 0060
>> 
>> On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:59:51 -0700, David Katz
>> wrote:   Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to use a
>> 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback
>> Radian
>> and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using Discover,
>> Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any
>> recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system.
>> Thanks, David Katz
>> 
>> Links:
>> --
>> [1]
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>> [2] mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[penobscotsolar]

Fortress EVaults have their own lcd screen with Soc, but Dave is right,
it's not as accurate on RE Optics. We do get a battery reading without any
add-ons, they are just usually off up to 10% from each other.
>
>
> Hi David,
>
> They all work but none of them can get Soc and a few other
> things out to Optics unless you add an external Outback Battery monitor.
> Outback has said they plan to have their own Lithium battery out in the
> Fall.
>
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines
> don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
> [2]
> text 209 813 0060
>
> On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:59:51 -0700, David Katz
> wrote:   Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to use a
> 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback
> Radian
> and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using Discover,
> Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any
> recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system.
> Thanks, David Katz
>
> Links:
> --
> [1]
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> [2] mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Ray]

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently 
gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, its simple.  Each 
3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 
lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use 
an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to 
the main 2/0 cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup 
guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer 
(including Outback).


Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which 
basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. Their tech 
support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking forward to them as one 
of the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources 
into their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to 
correct this problem.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:

Hello Wrenches,
I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 
kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback 
FM charge controllers.
They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or 
SimpliPhi batteries.
Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best 
with the Outback system.

Thanks,
David Katz

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Hi David, 

They all work but none of them can get Soc and a few other
things out to Optics unless you add an external Outback Battery monitor.
Outback has said they plan to have their own Lithium battery out in the
Fall.  

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:59:51 -0700, David Katz 
wrote:   Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to use a
20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian
and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using Discover,
Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any
recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system.
Thanks, David Katz  

Links:
--
[1]
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2] mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[penobscotsolar]

Hi Dave,
We've been using Fortress Power EVaults (18.5 kw per) with good results
with Radian 8048's

Daryl


> Hello Wrenches,
> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour
> 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge
> controllers.
> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi
> batteries.
> Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with
> the Outback system.
> Thanks,
> David Katz
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Chris Sparadeo]

I’ve used Blue Ion and Fortress eVault 18.5 with the Radian and both have
worked well. Blue Ion’s BMU and egauge are very sophisticated and has 5
years on Fortress’s 10 year warranty. Fortress is a great value but its
batteries are integrated into the cabinet and not modular like the Blue Ion
and weighs nearly 500 lbs per. Makes moving them tricky, especially if you
are up against stairs.

On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 4:00 PM David Katz  wrote:

> Hello Wrenches,
> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour
> 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge
> controllers.
> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi
> batteries.
> Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with
> the Outback system.
> Thanks,
> David Katz
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[RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[David Katz]

Hello Wrenches,
I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour
48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge
controllers.
They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi
batteries.
Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with
the Outback system.
Thanks,
David Katz
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