Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Wed, 2003-11-12 at 10:02, Terry Collins wrote: > Get the message folks - Unless you are a real employer, your messages do > not count in my books. Nor should they count with anyone else, but that > is your money and I really don't care. I really DO recommend people to be employed. I really DO actually cull resumes by reading them. Sorry to disappoint. > There is only one reason to do any "certification". That is that it > will get you job/employment/money. Yes I am advising that I think a piece of paper gets you past the first point. Past that it really is useless. Sorry but your Novell certification is now wallpaper. Rule 1 of interviews if they look at your paper work they are looking for something to talk about and you have lost the job. Rule 2 your paperwork gets you the interview. > Me, I have enough "certification" to wall paper my office. Me, I have none, including LPI but I have stayed with my company 10 years. According to your comments you want a new job, I can only advise what is looked for. What you do with this advice is up to yourself. > > The LPI is a hard test and it is a good benchmark. > > Seriously, it could only have improved The public trial was a real > howler. Seriously there are are 90% of our resumes now say "I have used Unix / Linux", LPI means you are actually serious. A comment in your resume means I have booted knoppix at least once. > > The fact that you > > must have real experience is important for getting a job but the LPI > > will guarantee that you have a broad knowledge not a narrow one that you > > gained from experience. > > It would be the first certification in the world to do that. Now this is negative. I understand it but it really is negative. Weigh the cost of not having it against the cost of having it. I did this for my University degree ($10K after tax) and it came out lacking so I dropped my course. I think you would benefit from the reading up (side benefit) of LPI, the exam is relatively cheap so why not do it. (** wait for Geoff to pipe in and say good advice and why haven't you done it Ken **) > > Personally I learnt a lot from do the two semesters in Granville TAFE > > and if I had time I would repeat the course to scrape a lot more out. > > I think you are confusing two things here; the courses run by Geoff > Robertson at Granville TAFE and LPI Certification. Yes I have to congratulate Geoff on his efforts as well. > > It is my opinion that any certification will only get you through the > > secretaries hands. "Here cull these resumes, give me only ones with 10+ > > years and look good or a certification." The job is up to you but you > > need this to get in the door. > > Well, I want beyond the secretary, because I've decided jobs run like > that are not worth having. Been there, done that a number of times. > Working with "certified" people can best be described as "interesting". The point is that I don't have time to read 100 resumes I get maybe 10, do you want to be in that pile or not. > Bottom line; if you are thinking of paying for certification, go to > http://www.jobnet.com.au or some other employment site and see exactly > what "certification" is being requested and paid for. Next dose of reality here. My company still does not use online services, we still pay to have our resumes culled by head hunters. What the head hunters put up are tempered by their perception of you, they do not have a clue technically. I don't condone using head hunters, it just is. We hired a Unix person because they had an MCSE as well, go figure??? so certifications certainly do count. They are not the whole picture. If you are not passing go on your resume with prior certification then seriously consider investing in professional resume writing not in certification. This will have a higher return on investment. -- Thanks KenF OpenOffice.org developer -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
Terry Collins wrote: I think you are confusing two things here; the courses run by Geoff Robertson at Granville TAFE and LPI Certification. No confusion here, Geoff (and I) have been teaching LPI at Granville Tafe for the past 4 semesters now (I'm actually taking this semester off but will probably go back to it next year). I found the LPI course work to be very relevant to Linux users generally and sysadmins in particular. I have used pretty much all of the stuff I learnt from LPI in running my own business, which is based on Linux support and coding: Not that LPI teaches you much about coding. I actually found teaching it the best way to learn it!! (Yes I have LPI and got it first go along with Geof Robertson in June last year. Earlier this year I did some course development work for Tafe NSW and spent a lot of time getting the LPI courses put into the AQF (Australian Qualification Framework). It is hoped that it will become part of the AQF sometime next year which means it will be recognised both by people in the 'Linux world' as well as those employers who like to see TAFE certificates. My $2 worth... since inflation and the removal of the 2 cent coin. Andy Eager -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
This one time, at band camp, Terry Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Get the message folks - Unless you are a real employer, your messages do > not count in my books. Nor should they count with anyone else, but that > is your money and I really don't care. Well, I am only a small employer, currently 3 staff. > > There is only one reason to do any "certification". That is that it > will get you job/employment/money. I believe certification at any level is simply a piece of paper that says 'this person has been taught to think our way' Just like your (higher) school certificates > Me, I have enough "certification" to wall paper my office. And for my money, that is all they are good for. Proven ability to get the job done is all I want. I really do not care for any certification short of my own approval. If I need a job done and somebody puts their hand up and says they can do it properly, I hire them, if they cannot do as I require, or as they have led me to believe, its back on the heap with them. I have had trainees in the past and have even had some tertiary students come and go. The certified tertiary students knew next to nothing. Although they could put together a primitive flash presentation. This was not LPI but from various IT courses through TAFE. my $0.02 Kevin -- __ (_ \ _) ) | / / _ ) / _ | / ___) / _ ) | | ( (/ / ( ( | |( (___ ( (/ / |_| \) \_||_| \) \) Kevin Waterson Port Macquarie, Australia -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
Sigh!, Last time.
Get the message folks - Unless you are a real employer, your messages do
not count in my books. Nor should they count with anyone else, but that
is your money and I really don't care.
There is only one reason to do any "certification". That is that it
will get you job/employment/money.
If, by studying for "certification", you actually learn something, well
that is good.
Me, I have enough "certification" to wall paper my office.
> The LPI is a hard test and it is a good benchmark.
Seriously, it could only have improved The public trial was a real
howler.
> The fact that you
> must have real experience is important for getting a job but the LPI
> will guarantee that you have a broad knowledge not a narrow one that you
> gained from experience.
It would be the first certification in the world to do that.
>
> Personally I learnt a lot from do the two semesters in Granville TAFE
> and if I had time I would repeat the course to scrape a lot more out.
I think you are confusing two things here; the courses run by Geoff
Robertson at Granville TAFE and LPI Certification.
> It is my opinion that any certification will only get you through the
> secretaries hands. "Here cull these resumes, give me only ones with 10+
> years and look good or a certification." The job is up to you but you
> need this to get in the door.
Well, I want beyond the secretary, because I've decided jobs run like
that are not worth having. Been there, done that a number of times.
Working with "certified" people can best be described as "interesting".
Bottom line; if you are thinking of paying for certification, go to
http://www.jobnet.com.au or some other employment site and see exactly
what "certification" is being requested and paid for.
--
Terry Collins {:-)}}} email: terryc at woa.com.au www:
http://www.woa.com.au
Wombat Outdoor Adventures
"People without trees are like fish without clean water"
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/
More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
> > It is community-built to satisfy the frustrations many of us have had > > with the proprietary world's certification efforts (which have more to > > do with marketing than anything else). > > Yep, I have some of those certifications, so I know exactly what you mean. > So, if you guys keep plugging LPI Certification the way you have, it is > going to get the same reputation as all those other "certifications". Why? LPI has no motivation to use certification as a marketing tool, and is unlikely to replicate the mistakes of the proprietary world. I think you're having a knee-jerk reaction to the idea of certification here, and haven't actually stated *why* you're skeptical or cautious about it. It's a bit of an ad hominem without any backup. :-) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2004: Adelaide, Australia http://lca2004.linux.org.au/ "Stay away from my house, you freak! Can't you see that everyone is buying station wagons?" - Neal Stephenson, ITBWTCL -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
Terry, The LPI is a hard test and it is a good benchmark. The fact that you must have real experience is important for getting a job but the LPI will guarantee that you have a broad knowledge not a narrow one that you gained from experience. Personally I learnt a lot from do the two semesters in Granville TAFE and if I had time I would repeat the course to scrape a lot more out. It is my opinion that any certification will only get you through the secretaries hands. "Here cull these resumes, give me only ones with 10+ years and look good or a certification." The job is up to you but you need this to get in the door. I repeat doing the LPI will teach you something and that is all good. I really think that is a far better reason to do it than a piece of paper. -- Thanks KenF OpenOffice.org developer -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
Jeff Waugh wrote:
...snip
> I'm gobsmacked that you'd put the
> word certification in quotes when referring to LPI.
Fundamentally, "certification" is just a certificate.
Some people know what they are doing despite lack of certification.
Some people are good at getting certified
In my books, any "certification" is only as good as the work it brings.
This is why I asked if any employer to state how they view it.
Instead, what I am getting is the worst of salesman snake oil approach.
Obviously some people have no confidence in "LPI certification" and its
support in the wider community.
> It is community-built to
> satisfy the frustrations many of us have had with the proprietary world's
> certification efforts (which have more to do with marketing than anything
> else).
Yep, I have some of those certifications, so I know exactly what you
mean. So, if you guys keep plugging LPI Certification the way you have,
it is going to get the same reputation as all those other
"certifications".
--
Terry Collins {:-)}}} email: terryc at woa.com.au www:
http://www.woa.com.au
Wombat Outdoor Adventures
"People without trees are like fish without clean water"
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/
More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
> Give it up Norm and lets wait for real people from real companies that do > not have connections with LPI, to stand up and say they will pay someone > if they have this "certification". I'm already seeing LPI on the jobs sites. I'm in a hiring position at the moment, and should I need [1] new staff, I will *definitely* be looking for experience and/or commitment to proving casual experience through a reliable certification like LPI. I know what it takes, I know what it covers, I know precisely what the coursework involves. "Real companies" ... BIG companies ... are already supporting LPI as part of their own Linux certification schemes. I'm gobsmacked that you'd put the word certification in quotes when referring to LPI. It is community-built to satisfy the frustrations many of us have had with the proprietary world's certification efforts (which have more to do with marketing than anything else). - Jeff [1] or, should I be allowed to have... -- GNOME Summit 2003: New York, USA http://www.nylxs.com/events/gnome/ "Socks for the foot menu!" - Liam Quin -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
Hi Terry, > On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Terry Collins wrote: > Give it up Norm and lets wait for real people from real companies that ^ let's not, instead be proactive and move forward > do not have connections with LPI, to stand up and say they will pay > someone if they have this "certification". I still maintain that there are organizations and HR departments that value Certification. It shouldn't matter whether they are australian or not, since some jobs are telecommuting these days... My personal feelings are that nothing beats hands-on commercial experience though.. we'd probably agree on that. Many put a lot of effort into assisting to promote open-source & unix/linux over the years. Hopefully training the newbies on how to use an o/s correctly (bsd/linux/whatever) might result in more professionals entering the workforce with real skillsets in a shorter timespan, a bonus for employers everywhere, cheers kind regards, Norm -- E-Solutions for BSD and Linux http://www.paladincorp.com.au/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
Norman Widders wrote:
>
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Terry Collins wrote:
>
> Dear Terry,
>
> Well I remember last year seeing some old advertisements on LPI from
> aussie companies asking for LPI certification. Google found them for ya,
> cheers!
>
> http://alumni.lpi.org/stories.php?topic=5
Give it up Norm and lets wait for real people from real companies that
do not have connections with LPI, to stand up and say they will pay
someone if they have this "certification".
--
Terry Collins {:-)}}} email: terryc at woa.com.au www:
http://www.woa.com.au
Wombat Outdoor Adventures
"People without trees are like fish without clean water"
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/
More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Terry Collins wrote: Dear Terry, Well I remember last year seeing some old advertisements on LPI from aussie companies asking for LPI certification. Google found them for ya, cheers! http://alumni.lpi.org/stories.php?topic=5 > No, not interested. I am an Australian citizen who has absolutley not > interest in ever travelling to the USA. > > I am very much interested in hearing from the horses mouth about > Australian companies that actually do this. kind regards Norm -- Software for BSD and Linux http://www.paladincorp.com.au/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
Norman Widders wrote:
>
> On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Terry Collins wrote:
>
> Dear Terry,
>
> I can name a few US organizations that avail themselves of it
> for training. Contact me off-list if interested, cheers.
No, not interested. I am an Australian citizen who has absolutley not
interest in ever travelling to the USA.
I am very much interested in hearing from the horses mouth about
Australian companies that actually do this.
--
Terry Collins {:-)}}} email: terryc at woa.com.au www:
http://www.woa.com.au
Wombat Outdoor Adventures
"People without trees are like fish without clean water"
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/
More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Terry Collins wrote: Quoting from LPI's own FAQ, on benefits of testing & training, that is: o Assist in the hiring process http://www.lpi.org/en/faq1.html#1.1 I'd be interested in follow ups comparing ccie/rhce/cne/mcse cheers Norm -- E-Solutions for BSD and Linux http://www.paladincorp.com.au/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Terry Collins wrote: Dear Terry, I can name a few US organizations that avail themselves of it for training. Contact me off-list if interested, cheers > Does anyone who actually employs people on the basis of such > certification want to confirm that this is so? And, preferrably say how > many positions would be affected by such certification at their site? kind regards Norm -- E-Solutions for BSD and Linux http://www.paladincorp.com.au/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
...snip.
> Many professionals now hold LPI certification in high esteem as it has
> come a long way in the Industry.
Does anyone who actually employs people on the basis of such
certification want to confirm that this is so? And, preferrably say how
many positions would be affected by such certification at their site?
--
Terry Collins {:-)}}} email: terryc at woa.com.au www:
http://www.woa.com.au
Wombat Outdoor Adventures
"People without trees are like fish without clean water"
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/
More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Andrew Burton wrote: Yes, the LPI certification is quite good, having had the pleasure of assisting initially, back in early 1999 before anybody had heard of LPI. Many professionals now hold LPI certification in high esteem as it has come a long way in the Industry. kind regards Norm > Hi all, > > I noticed that there were some study groups set up a while ago for LPI > certification; I'm wondering whether to get certified by LPI, or to go with > SAIR, which also do a certification course. Does anyone know which is more > 'authentic', or more widely recognised - I'm guessing it's the LPI, given > the sponsorship by IBM and SuSE amongst others. > > I've just started looking into it, and it's confusing having different > vendors offering different tests. > > Andrew -- Security / ISO-17799 for BSD and Linux http://www.paladincorp.com.au/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] Linux Certification
Andrew, I can recommend the LPI courses at Granville TAFE. See http://slug.org.au/training.html They are the best value technical training you'll find anywhere. David > Hi all, > > I noticed that there were some study groups set up a while ago for LPI > certification; I'm wondering whether to get certified by LPI, or to go with > SAIR, which also do a certification course. Does anyone know which is more > 'authentic', or more widely recognised - I'm guessing it's the LPI, given > the sponsorship by IBM and SuSE amongst others. > > I've just started looking into it, and it's confusing having different > vendors offering different tests. > > > > Andrew > > -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
> I noticed that there were some study groups set up a while ago for LPI > certification; I'm wondering whether to get certified by LPI, or to go > with SAIR, which also do a certification course. Does anyone know which is > more 'authentic', or more widely recognised - I'm guessing it's the LPI, > given the sponsorship by IBM and SuSE amongst others. Definitely go with LPI. It's community-driven, quite tough, and is only going to get bigger (and yet, they have no interest in lowering the difficulty to make it more popular). - Jeff -- GNOME Summit 2003: New York, USA http://www.nylxs.com/events/gnome/ make: *** No rule to make target `whoopee'. Stop. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Linux Certification
Hi all, I noticed that there were some study groups set up a while ago for LPI certification; I'm wondering whether to get certified by LPI, or to go with SAIR, which also do a certification course. Does anyone know which is more 'authentic', or more widely recognised - I'm guessing it's the LPI, given the sponsorship by IBM and SuSE amongst others. I've just started looking into it, and it's confusing having different vendors offering different tests. Andrew _ Hot chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilemania/default.asp -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: Bah Humbug [Was Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification]
On Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 11:58:45AM +0200, Craige McWhirter wrote: > Self education shows drive, dedication and other buzz words that Dilbert > style managers (80%+) are easily impressed with. They think they can get > an equally skilled person for a few bob less, so they choose you. Work > there a while, get the experience and move on to more money elsewhere, > if that's what your after. Again confusing certification with courses - it's a lot easier to demonstrate self education when you have certification... -- enterfornone - insert clever comment here http://www.enterfornone.com/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
> BA/BSc: Five years, thousands of hours and a debt to the government >CNE: Many $1000's of dollars and a great deal of pain > MSCE: Many $1000's of dollars and a great deal of pain > CCNE: Many $1000's of dollars > RHCE: Many $1000's of dollars (at RedHat no less!) I think a lot of people are confusing MCSE courses and MCSE certification. I've met quite a few people who have completed MCSE courses and don't know a great deal (and aren't actually MCSE's despite putting their MCSE course on the resume). There are also quite a few MCSEs who have never done a course and know their stuff. They also paid about $155x6 or 7, not many thousands. >From what I've seen RedHat (and others) like to discourage the latter. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: Bah Humbug [Was Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification]
>Just reading my email it seemed quite arrogant - arrogance is a killer. >Arrogance/cockyness will never get you a job, Be open, relax and be >yourself. Open in personality as well as systems ;) OTOH I'm told hubris makes you a great Perl programmer :) Jamie -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: Bah Humbug [Was Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification]
Just reading my email it seemed quite arrogant - arrogance is a killer. Arrogance/cockyness will never get you a job, Be open, relax and be yourself. Open in personality as well as systems ;) Craige McWhirter wrote: > > I wasn't too sure about sending this but here's my 2c worth anyway: > > 1. - Choosing interesting work is more important than the dollars you > earn. > > 2. - You can earn 6 figure salaries with no more formal training than > the HSC. > > 3. - 2 usually follows because of 1. > > 4. - You can get the most interesting jobs with no more formal training > than the HSC. > > 4. - Currently it's a sellers market, you're selling. > > 5. - 42 > > 6. - More money doesn't equal job/life satisfaction (or is that just > repeating 1?) > > Like Umar said, cert's only help you with your first job. Even then, > they aren't *really* any help. You'll get more entry level jobs with > pure enthusiasm, displaying a willingness to learn and adapt to new > technologies. > > Self education shows drive, dedication and other buzz words that Dilbert > style managers (80%+) are easily impressed with. They think they can get > an equally skilled person for a few bob less, so they choose you. Work > there a while, get the experience and move on to more money elsewhere, > if that's what your after. > > Again experience > certification. Don't get certified on Linux or > anything. Play with it till you break it then fix it. The tougher you do > it, the more you'll learn. > > You work towards your dream job. Only freaks get it first up. > > Cheers, > Craige. > > Umar Goldeli wrote: > > > > Please excuse me, I think I just threw up... > > > > I can't believe people actually waste precious oxygen doing an MCSE. > > > > Although, a handy hint for anyone thinking about wasting money on certs: > > it will get you into your *first* job. After that, nobody really cares > > about your certs - only that your resume is 23 pages long and says that > > you have been in the industry for 823 years and that you know 43 > > languages, and you have worked for multinational companies A through to Z. > > > > In fact, after a while they don't even care about what skills you have, > > but which places you've worked, how much you were last paid, how much you > > want now and roughly what you last did. This is after you build up some > > rapport with the pimps that look after your niche of the market > > (security? net design? coding? coffee making?) > > > > (so it is in the lucrative Meat Market(tm) anyway) > > > > //umar. > > -- > SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ > More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Bah Humbug [Was Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification]
I wasn't too sure about sending this but here's my 2c worth anyway: 1. - Choosing interesting work is more important than the dollars you earn. 2. - You can earn 6 figure salaries with no more formal training than the HSC. 3. - 2 usually follows because of 1. 4. - You can get the most interesting jobs with no more formal training than the HSC. 4. - Currently it's a sellers market, you're selling. 5. - 42 6. - More money doesn't equal job/life satisfaction (or is that just repeating 1?) Like Umar said, cert's only help you with your first job. Even then, they aren't *really* any help. You'll get more entry level jobs with pure enthusiasm, displaying a willingness to learn and adapt to new technologies. Self education shows drive, dedication and other buzz words that Dilbert style managers (80%+) are easily impressed with. They think they can get an equally skilled person for a few bob less, so they choose you. Work there a while, get the experience and move on to more money elsewhere, if that's what your after. Again experience > certification. Don't get certified on Linux or anything. Play with it till you break it then fix it. The tougher you do it, the more you'll learn. You work towards your dream job. Only freaks get it first up. Cheers, Craige. Umar Goldeli wrote: > > Please excuse me, I think I just threw up... > > I can't believe people actually waste precious oxygen doing an MCSE. > > Although, a handy hint for anyone thinking about wasting money on certs: > it will get you into your *first* job. After that, nobody really cares > about your certs - only that your resume is 23 pages long and says that > you have been in the industry for 823 years and that you know 43 > languages, and you have worked for multinational companies A through to Z. > > In fact, after a while they don't even care about what skills you have, > but which places you've worked, how much you were last paid, how much you > want now and roughly what you last did. This is after you build up some > rapport with the pimps that look after your niche of the market > (security? net design? coding? coffee making?) > > (so it is in the lucrative Meat Market(tm) anyway) > > //umar. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] Linux Certification
RHCE has is a multiple choice section as well that is structured in the manner your describing --Stephen On Tue, Aug 22, 2000 at 06:44:52PM +1000, Jon Biddell wrote: > > Any organization that does its' testing this way is sus in itself - > have they never heard ot parametric testing ? Have a pool of, say, > 10,000 questions and randomly select 100 for the test - no two tests > are the same. not if the testing is hands on Conrad. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
> At the top there is a huge demand for IT skills, but at the bottom there > are a lot of people trying to get in and every little bit helps. Well said. Indeed, in the end, regardless of where you are in the market, whether it be top or bottom - every little bit *does* count. //umar. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, enterfornone wrote: > > > Why should you need to know about application design or registry > > > structure for MCSE? It's not in the test. > > > > > > The problem is too many people see MSCE and similar certifictions as > > > being "expert in all things" rather than simply being the ability > > > to pass a test to a certain criteria. > > > > What is the MCSE meant to be? > > according to MS: > > "The Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer credential is the premier > certification for professionals who analyze the business requirements > and design and implement the infrastructure for business solutions > based on the Windows® 2000 platform and Microsoft server software. > Implementation responsibilities include installing, configuring, and > troubleshooting network systems." And on that note, I stand by my original saying. I'm not saying they should be an expert and know everything about application design or registry structures, but IMHO, it would be beneficial to their certification. Andrew. -- If you are still using my old e-mail addresses, [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED], you should change to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Conrad Parker wrote: > On Tue, Aug 22, 2000 at 06:44:52PM +1000, Jon Biddell wrote: > > > > Any organization that does its' testing this way is sus in itself - > > have they never heard ot parametric testing ? Have a pool of, say, > > 10,000 questions and randomly select 100 for the test - no two tests > > are the same. > > not if the testing is hands on Rubbish... Couldn't they... Bugger - I hate it when he's right !! -- Regards, Jon -- "It is irresponsible to connect a Windows machine to the Internet" ... John Wiltshire (SLUG) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Tue, Aug 22, 2000 at 07:09:36PM +1000, Umar Goldeli wrote: > Please excuse me, I think I just threw up... > > I can't believe people actually waste precious oxygen doing an MCSE. > > Although, a handy hint for anyone thinking about wasting money on certs: > it will get you into your *first* job. After that, nobody really cares > about your certs - only that your resume is 23 pages long and says that > you have been in the industry for 823 years and that you know 43 > languages, and you have worked for multinational companies A through to Z. After a while that is probably true, but I've been to enough interviews and known enough people with and without certifications to know that they do count, at least at the bottom. I've got two years ISP phone support, A+ and MCP and I've just started working as a hardware tech for a Linux/SCO company. Before the certs the only jobs I was considered for were call centre. Others with similar experience and MCSE have gone into (junior) system/network admin roles. At the top there is a huge demand for IT skills, but at the bottom there are a lot of people trying to get in and every little bit helps. -- enterfornone - insert clever comment here http://www.enterfornone.com/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
Please excuse me, I think I just threw up... I can't believe people actually waste precious oxygen doing an MCSE. Although, a handy hint for anyone thinking about wasting money on certs: it will get you into your *first* job. After that, nobody really cares about your certs - only that your resume is 23 pages long and says that you have been in the industry for 823 years and that you know 43 languages, and you have worked for multinational companies A through to Z. In fact, after a while they don't even care about what skills you have, but which places you've worked, how much you were last paid, how much you want now and roughly what you last did. This is after you build up some rapport with the pimps that look after your niche of the market (security? net design? coding? coffee making?) (so it is in the lucrative Meat Market(tm) anyway) //umar. > according to MS: > > "The Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer credential is the premier > certification for professionals who analyze the business requirements > and design and implement the infrastructure for business solutions > based on the Windows 2000 platform and Microsoft server software. > Implementation responsibilities include installing, configuring, and > troubleshooting network systems." -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
Please excuse me, I think I just threw up... I can't believe people actually waste precious oxygen doing an MCSE. Although, a handy hint for anyone thinking about wasting money on certs: it will get you into your *first* job. After that, nobody really cares about your certs - only that your resume is 23 pages long and says that you have been in the industry for 823 years and that you know 43 languages, and you have worked for multinational companies A through to Z. In fact, after a while they don't even care about what skills you have, but which places you've worked, how much you were last paid, how much you want now and roughly what you last did. This is after you build up some rapport with the pimps that look after your niche of the market (security? net design? coding? coffee making?) (so it is in the lucrative Meat Market(tm) anyway) //umar. > according to MS: > > "The Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer credential is the premier > certification for professionals who analyze the business requirements > and design and implement the infrastructure for business solutions > based on the Windows® 2000 platform and Microsoft server software. > Implementation responsibilities include installing, configuring, and > troubleshooting network systems." -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Tue, Aug 22, 2000 at 06:44:52PM +1000, Jon Biddell wrote: > > Any organization that does its' testing this way is sus in itself - > have they never heard ot parametric testing ? Have a pool of, say, > 10,000 questions and randomly select 100 for the test - no two tests > are the same. not if the testing is hands on Conrad. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
Steven Blunt wrote: > Most certifications require you to sign an NDA so you don't go telling > people what's in the exam. What exactly do they hope to achieve by this? How does knowing what the questions are likely to be effect how much knowledge you're able to demonstrate during the exam? You still have to be able to do it. And if nobody who hasn't done the exam knows what's in the exam, then how can it be worth anything - eg I'm hiring people, you've got a xCSE, I'd like to know what you had to do to get it. Sounds a bit like 'security through obscurity' - don't tell people what's in the exam, then they can't look at the exam and see if it's actually 'secure' - ie meets their requirements. You have to just trust that whoever's running the certification is doing their job properly. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Terry Collins wrote: > I'm not having a go at Jon or defending MS, but Thanks Terry.,...:-) > > When all that was needed was to change the BOOTGUI=0 to BOOTGUI=1 in > > the (scratches head) boot.ini file (file might be wrong). > > > > Again, claimed that they didn't teach anything like this. > > Can someone tell me when this problem would really occur in real life? Yes - there are some badly-behaved apps (don't ask me to name them - as I haven't seen this for a few years) that trash the boot.ini - I think it was a POS app. that I first saw this on - it gave you the option in boot.ini to boot directly into the "DOS" version, or to go to the GUI version I have seen other apps that will knacker the boot.ini file as well. > > These are the sorts of things that Cisco will do to you when doing a > > CCNA/CCIE course - goodies like sticking a pin through yout CAT5 cable > > to create a short, then trimming off the ends so you have to FEEL for > > it. > > Really?, I'd say CISCO Certification is sus. If the cables is sus, > apply side cutters and get a new one. Yes, quite correct procedure, and exactly what they are looking for... The trick is: will student waste time trying to troubleshoot the system or start with the basics first - apply cable tester - cable is faulty - new cable installed - system works... > I've been "blessed" by working with a whole pile of techo's over the > years who can do all these wonderful things, but when it came down to > business, they were totally useless. I even sat through an interview > last Monday where the technically very good IT Manager was going to > get it in the neck (unbeknown to him) because he wasn't responding to > business problems. I have the opposite (sort of) problem... Mty manager who, blessed that I am, is based in Melbourne, is very pro-business and so-so technically (knows his routing ans switching protocols very well, but nix about *nix, NT or AIX (the three OS's we use) - this works well, as he insulates us techos from the suits and lets us get on with our work. He also knows us well enough to trust our judgement and, in a critical outage, if we say "we need to do this and this NOW", 99% of the time we won't need to justify anything - just get the network up again so the business can function. Mind you, his post-mortems can be a nightmare, but they too are to our benefit. -- Regards, Jon -- "It is irresponsible to connect a Windows machine to the Internet" ... John Wiltshire (SLUG) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Steven Blunt wrote: > On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 10:09:40PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > > Stephen Mills wrote: > > > > > > Ive done the RHCE - yes you must know RPM, I can't go into too much detail > > > (or Redhat will give me a boot up the behind) but if you know your Linux > > > very well, you shouldnt have much trouble > > > > > > RedHat will do WHAT? > > Most certifications require you to sign an NDA so you don't go telling > people what's in the exam. Any organization that does its' testing this way is sus in itself - have they never heard ot parametric testing ? Have a pool of, say, 10,000 questions and randomly select 100 for the test - no two tests are the same. -- Regards, Jon -- "It is irresponsible to connect a Windows machine to the Internet" ... John Wiltshire (SLUG) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Tue, Aug 22, 2000 at 07:58:06PM +1000, Andrew Macks wrote: > On Mon, 21 Aug 2000, enterfornone wrote: > > > Why should you need to know about application design or registry > > structure for MCSE? It's not in the test. > > > > The problem is too many people see MSCE and similar certifictions as > > being "expert in all things" rather than simply being the ability > > to pass a test to a certain criteria. > > What is the MCSE meant to be? according to MS: "The Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer credential is the premier certification for professionals who analyze the business requirements and design and implement the infrastructure for business solutions based on the Windows® 2000 platform and Microsoft server software. Implementation responsibilities include installing, configuring, and troubleshooting network systems." -- enterfornone - insert clever comment here http://www.enterfornone.com/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 10:09:40PM +1000, Jeff Waugh wrote: > > Stephen Mills wrote: > > > > Ive done the RHCE - yes you must know RPM, I can't go into too much detail > > (or Redhat will give me a boot up the behind) but if you know your Linux > > very well, you shouldnt have much trouble > > > RedHat will do WHAT? Most certifications require you to sign an NDA so you don't go telling people what's in the exam. -- enterfornone - insert clever comment here http://www.enterfornone.com/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Mon, 21 Aug 2000, enterfornone wrote: > Why should you need to know about application design or registry > structure for MCSE? It's not in the test. > > The problem is too many people see MSCE and similar certifictions as > being "expert in all things" rather than simply being the ability > to pass a test to a certain criteria. What is the MCSE meant to be? Andrew. -- If you are still using my old e-mail addresses, [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED], you should change to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 02:39:08PM +1000, Andrew Macks wrote: > > > That's my main fear about certification. Lots of people being taught to > use a GUI which is very non-standard, or even just taught the basics of > using a computer/OS rather than mastering it. They shouldn't be taught > how to do things, but more how to find things and work them out for > themselves, the basic structure of Linux, how it's designed, how it works. > > It would be like all these Microsoft MSCE people. How many of them know > anything about Windows' application design? Or even just the registry > structure? (Is there a registry structure? :P) But seriously, even > though one could argue, "But why would they need to know that?", I don't > think you deserve a certificate of creditation for anything less than > that. You should be expected to know at least a bit of everything. Why should you need to know about application design or registry structure for MCSE? It's not in the test. The problem is too many people see MSCE and similar certifictions as being "expert in all things" rather than simply being the ability to pass a test to a certain criteria. -- enterfornone - insert clever comment here http://www.enterfornone.com/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
> Terry Collins wrote: > > If you are looking for work, then in general, then certification (any > certification) will get you looked at ahead of a person without > certification. Rings true... a friend of mine in the US repeats the mantra with new glee... BA/BSc: Five years, thousands of hours and a debt to the government CNE: Many $1000's of dollars and a great deal of pain MSCE: Many $1000's of dollars and a great deal of pain CCNE: Many $1000's of dollars RHCE: Many $1000's of dollars (at RedHat no less!) Copy of Debian in his briefcase and on every server? Priceless. - Jeff -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- http://linux.conf.au/ -- Ye shall be cursed to fall in love so easily, and yet be so cold of heart as never to express it. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
Jon Biddell wrote:
...snip...
I'm not having a go at Jon or defending MS, but
> When all that was needed was to change the BOOTGUI=0 to BOOTGUI=1 in
> the (scratches head) boot.ini file (file might be wrong).
>
> Again, claimed that they didn't teach anything like this.
Can someone tell me when this problem would really occur in real life?
snip...
> These are the sorts of things that Cisco will do to you when doing a
> CCNA/CCIE course - goodies like sticking a pin through yout CAT5 cable
> to create a short, then trimming off the ends so you have to FEEL for
> it.
Really?, I'd say CISCO Certification is sus. If the cables is sus,
apply side cutters and get a new one.
I've been "blessed" by working with a whole pile of techo's over the
years who can do all these wonderful things, but when it came down to
business, they were totally useless. I even sat through an interview
last Monday where the technically very good IT Manager was going to
get it in the neck (unbeknown to him) because he wasn't responding to
business problems.
Responding to business problems matters more with smaller companies ,
but the larger companies have more niches for the techo's to retreat
to.
If you are looking for work, then in general, then certification (any
certification) will get you looked at ahead of a person without
certification. The number of "managers" that are intelligent and can
assess staff on experience are few and far between. So you are better
off going for it, if you can. So you can look at personal
satisfaction and increased income as two justifications.
And, if you are contracting, "certification" is almost essential with
most pimps^h^h^h^h^hagencies.
--
Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.woa.com.au
or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WOA Computer Services
snail: PO Box 1047, Campbelltown, NSW 2560.
"People without trees are like fish without clean water"
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/
More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Jon Biddell wrote:
[...Must Consult Someone Experienced tale of woe deleted...]
> The point is, are these certification courses really worth it ? Both in
> terms of money spend (I believe some of the linux ones are bloody
> expensive), but in terms of industry recodnition ? The CISCO ones
> certainly are comprehensive (my boss is sending me for my CCNA this
> year, and allowing me to upgrade to a CCIE at the company's expense
The MCSE is the laughing stock of the IT world - the only people who
insist on it are certified Microsoft shops - everyone else is happy if you
know enough of troubleshooting.
The Csico courses are, IMHO, definitely worth it - the CCNA you can get by
reading a good book {just}, the CCNP you haven't got a hope {you've got to
have hands on experience}, and the CCIE - forget it. If you haven't lived,
beathed and eaten Cisco for 18 months, don't even try.
It's up to us, in a way, to ensure that Linux certifications don't fall
into the same class as the MCSE - by refusing to deal with any one of them
which gets to a similar point - in other words, anyone which you can pass
by just lobbing in off the street, doing the training, reading the books
and taking the exam - without the benefit of any experience at all.
How are we going to make that happen? Good question. Anyone from RedHat
listening?
DAZZa
--
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More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
> It would be like all these Microsoft MSCE people. How many of them know > anything about Windows' application design? Or even just the registry > structure? (Is there a registry structure? :P) But seriously, even > though one could argue, "But why would they need to know that?", I don't > think you deserve a certificate of creditation for anything less than > that. You should be expected to know at least a bit of everything. Let me tell you an MCSE (Must Consult Someone Educated) tale; I was contracting for United Distillers (great place to get cheap "samples" !!) doing their Y2K testing and, because of total mismanagement of the project by their IT director, we were grossly behind. No problem, he says, get a few temps to help you... Better still, I'll get them for you. So I get A & B. "A" was a nice, friendly, personable (and not unattractive, but that's inconsequential) Uni student doing her B.Sc(IT) part time - yes, made mistakes and needed hand-holding, but could get the job done and wasn't afraid to ask questions if she was unsure. "B" was a "certified MCSE", bla, bla, bla. Not only did he try to take over the project by telling management that he was more qualified than me (he was, hell - I'm an ex-Lawyer !!), but he showed his total ignorance in two ways. Firstly, he had absolutely NO idea how to turn off the EvilWare95 "splash screen" to see what was going on behind it (you hit ESCAPE) - claimed that " they didn't teach us such trivia at MS...". Secondly, being the suspicious bastard that I am, I set him up with a problem - NT4 workstation would boot to the command prompt only. No, we MUST save the data on this drive, so you cannot reinstall NT. He spend 2 days on it and gave up, saying that a full reinstall was needed. When all that was needed was to change the BOOTGUI=0 to BOOTGUI=1 in the (scratches head) boot.ini file (file might be wrong). Again, claimed that they didn't teach anything like this. In the example above (A and B), I was asked to recommend one of them to an affiliated company as an IT desktop support person - guess which one got the job ? These are the sorts of things that Cisco will do to you when doing a CCNA/CCIE course - goodies like sticking a pin through yout CAT5 cable to create a short, then trimming off the ends so you have to FEEL for it. The point is, are these certification courses really worth it ? Both in terms of money spend (I believe some of the linux ones are bloody expensive), but in terms of industry recodnition ? The CISCO ones certainly are comprehensive (my boss is sending me for my CCNA this year, and allowing me to upgrade to a CCIE at the company's expense next year if I want to (I WANT !!! I WANT !!!), but the Linux ones ? Are any of them recognised, not only bt the IT industry, but by recruitment agencies / contractors ? Will the RHCE or any "generic" course teach you how to use one distro, how to use tools that are not common across 90% of the distros ? The MCSE, (which my company is trying hard to talk me into doing and I'm trying with equal assertiveness to avoid !) teaches you to pass a set of exams - it teaches you little of "real world experience" that would be useful to a potential employer. You are taught, not to use "experience", "intuition" or other resources to solve the problem, but "... to do things the Microsoft way...", that there can only be ONE solution to a problem with MS products, and that's the Microsoft-approved one (and God help anyone who questions this or trys to do things an "unapproved" way during the course / exams). Just my $0.022 worth (includes GST !!) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] Linux Certification
Who knows, "bad stuff" (revoke your quals?)- they make you sign a contract not to disclose the exam, I guess to protect its integrity, I personally think its a good idea, keeps the playing field equal. We all know that MCSE exams aren't based on real life stuff, I bet more then half don't know how to recover a BSOD on startup without reinstalling in situations where it wouldnt be necessary. --Stephen > Stephen Mills wrote: > > Ive done the RHCE - yes you must know RPM, I can't go into too much detail > (or Redhat will give me a boot up the behind) but if you know your Linux > very well, you shouldnt have much trouble >RedHat will do WHAT? >Reminds me of a couple of database vendors who refuse publication of >benchmark results. >- Jeff -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
> Stephen Mills wrote: > > Ive done the RHCE - yes you must know RPM, I can't go into too much detail > (or Redhat will give me a boot up the behind) but if you know your Linux > very well, you shouldnt have much trouble RedHat will do WHAT? Reminds me of a couple of database vendors who refuse publication of benchmark results. "Hey, what's your Uni like?" "Pretty good. I can't tell you all that much about it though, I'll have my degree revoked." "That's a brilliant marketing tactic. Sucks that much, hey?" "I can't go into too much detail, but there *are* buildings there, and even rooms." - Jeff -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- http://linux.conf.au/ -- Ye shall be cursed to fall in love so easily, and yet be so cold of heart as never to express it. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
> www.brainbench.com > > They have a series of exams on different subjects that you can do, and get > a rating on. > > Not sure if they cost money not yet, though they will charge (i think they are still in beta)... ...though the first one will always be free... ;) later marty "I can't buy what I want because it's free. Can't be what they want because I'm me." - Corduroy, Pearl Jam -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Mon, 21 Aug 2000, marty wrote: > i was wondering about certifications... i have no qualifications because > i learnt for myself how to build, configure and test hardware and how to > setup, use, network (etc.) linux... but how do i prove that to an > employer without taking one of these exams, so as to have a piece of paper > to wave around ?? also, how do i assess whether my skills are of a > sufficient level (a doubt i have, hence why i haven't gone IT job hunting) > without getting someone to check my competency ?? www.brainbench.com They have a series of exams on different subjects that you can do, and get a rating on. Not sure if they cost money - the only times I've done it has been at the referral of a recruitment agency - but they're recognised, at least by the agencies, and they pass on recommendations based on them. DAZZa -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] Linux Certification
>What I am concerned about is that if by doing a RedHat endorsed course, I >would be exposed to RedHat tools that wouldn't apply to Un*x in general, >such as the rpm system and GUI-based configuration tools. >Any experiences with these programs would really be appreciated. Ive done the RHCE - yes you must know RPM, I can't go into too much detail (or Redhat will give me a boot up the behind) but if you know your Linux very well, you shouldnt have much trouble Good thing is, you can use any tools on the standard Redhat distro you wish to get the job done - thats all I can really say :) Stephen -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Mon, 21 Aug 2000, marty wrote: > i was wondering about certifications... i have no qualifications because > i learnt for myself how to build, configure and test hardware and how to > setup, use, network (etc.) linux... but how do i prove that to an > employer without taking one of these exams, so as to have a piece of paper > to wave around ?? also, how do i assess whether my skills are of a > sufficient level (a doubt i have, hence why i haven't gone IT job hunting) > without getting someone to check my competency ?? Shrugs, after a while of speaking on this list I gather you'll have many people to vouch for you if your knowledge of the OS is really as good as you think it is. InstallFests, etc are all good experience, and qualify as experience on your resume. If you can convince your local school, hospital, or Pizza Haven to consider Linux, then you'll also have their certification of what you can do. All of the above would rate more highly in my book than a certification. A certification is a very indirect way of saying "This person knows something..". A reference is a very personal way of saying "This guy knows his stuff!". Which would you pick out of the two? Sure, there are still lots of companies who simply make judgements based on pieces of paper such as certifications, but there are also a lot more now than there used to be who are willing to accept that you know what you know, (being able to prove it helps), and I think you'll be okay. I left after Year 10 (a few years back :P) to continue learning computer related stuff (have been running a Computer Sales business and still am), and now work for a company in the US you may have heard of called freshmeat. Anyhow, freshmeat is probably a unique example, but if you develop a reputation of knowing your stuff, you'll generally find that people will learn of that reputation, and hopefully choose to employ you based merely on that, and perhaps a small demonstration just to convince the local sysadmin :P Andrew. -- If you are still using my old e-mail addresses, [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED], you should change to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
> > > That's my main fear about certification. Lots of people being taught to > use a GUI which is very non-standard, or even just taught the basics of > using a computer/OS rather than mastering it. They shouldn't be taught > how to do things, but more how to find things and work them out for > themselves, the basic structure of Linux, how it's designed, how it works. > > It would be like all these Microsoft MSCE people. How many of them know > anything about Windows' application design? Or even just the registry > structure? (Is there a registry structure? :P) But seriously, even > though one could argue, "But why would they need to know that?", I don't > think you deserve a certificate of creditation for anything less than > that. You should be expected to know at least a bit of everything. > > this isn't really a response to the rant, but... i was wondering about certifications... i have no qualifications because i learnt for myself how to build, configure and test hardware and how to setup, use, network (etc.) linux... but how do i prove that to an employer without taking one of these exams, so as to have a piece of paper to wave around ?? also, how do i assess whether my skills are of a sufficient level (a doubt i have, hence why i haven't gone IT job hunting) without getting someone to check my competency ?? later marty "I can't buy what I want because it's free. Can't be what they want because I'm me." - Corduroy, Pearl Jam -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Linux Certification
On Mon, 21 Aug 2000, Alex wrote: > I would really like to hear about SLUG attendee's experience with Linux > certfication programs, such as LPI, RHCE, the GNU one... > I'm not really concerned about the recognition of a certificate, as long as > by doing the course(s), skills can be acquired to administer and > troubleshoot a Un*x driven site. > What I am concerned about is that if by doing a RedHat endorsed course, I > would be exposed to RedHat tools that wouldn't apply to Un*x in general, > such as the rpm system and GUI-based configuration tools. > Any experiences with these programs would really be appreciated. That's my main fear about certification. Lots of people being taught to use a GUI which is very non-standard, or even just taught the basics of using a computer/OS rather than mastering it. They shouldn't be taught how to do things, but more how to find things and work them out for themselves, the basic structure of Linux, how it's designed, how it works. It would be like all these Microsoft MSCE people. How many of them know anything about Windows' application design? Or even just the registry structure? (Is there a registry structure? :P) But seriously, even though one could argue, "But why would they need to know that?", I don't think you deserve a certificate of creditation for anything less than that. You should be expected to know at least a bit of everything. Andypoo. -- If you are still using my old e-mail addresses, [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED], you should change to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
[SLUG] Linux Certification
Hi, I would really like to hear about SLUG attendee's experience with Linux certfication programs, such as LPI, RHCE, the GNU one... I'm not really concerned about the recognition of a certificate, as long as by doing the course(s), skills can be acquired to administer and troubleshoot a Un*x driven site. What I am concerned about is that if by doing a RedHat endorsed course, I would be exposed to RedHat tools that wouldn't apply to Un*x in general, such as the rpm system and GUI-based configuration tools. Any experiences with these programs would really be appreciated. Regards, Alex Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
