[RCSE] For Sale: New WinchDoc winch
Folks. I know there's a lot of you out there trying to get Doug to build you one of these Well it's your lucky day. I have a brand new Winchdoc winch that I picked up from Doug 6 months ago. I have only used it for one day to test it out. We only launched my friends Genie a handfull of times. i ususally just fly off the club winches and don't have a lot of time to fly anymore. Comes with line and extra spools. I'm in the Seattle area and would love to sell it locally but will ship if need be. $950 + shipping Jared _ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
RE: [RCSE] LISF Fall contest report
>-Original Message- >From: Anker Berg-Sonne >but I wonder what happened to Jose and especially >Mark. Jose is flying his MH-32 Mantis really well, and I thought Mark was >right up with the winners. >The only interesting incident was when one of the sportsmens Manti lost a >tail on launch. Anker, you must have missed the most interesting thing that happened on Saturday. It's also the thing that explains what happened to Mark (and maybe Jose, I'm not sure). It all began with round six. Mike Lachowski and John Jenks put a minute on me in that round by flying way off to some thermal that I didn't know about. That was enough to knock me out of contention for first and also put me in a mood for shoveling dirt on those who were now in the lead. After that round Tom Kiesling kindly pointed out that I could probably achieve higher launches if I stayed on the line a little longer. That brings us to the seventh and final round with a devilishly dangerous 15 minute task. I stepped up to the winches announcing to all who were within earshot that they were now dealing with a wounded animal (me) and they better be careful. With Tom Kiesling's advice in mind I stayed on the winch line a little longer this time. Now, Tom didn't tell me to dive too deep and too long on the zoom but my timing was thrown off by doing the launch a little differently than I had all day, so you guessed it, I snagged the winch line on the pull up from the zoom. The next thing I saw was the plane doing a couple fast, violent snap rolls with the winch line somehow attached to parts unknown of the model. Meanwhile, John Hauf was dutifully pedaling down the winch line (just like at the NATS, no retrievers, wind the chutes down to the turnarounds after launch), unaware that anything was amiss. John wouldn't have been standing on that winch pedal had he known that my model was still snagged on the line but it turns out that his actions actually freed my model from the winch line. The cost of freeing my model from the winch line was the loss of my rudder which was seen to be fluttering to the ground as the model flew peacefully away. I had about ten or twenty seconds to curse loudly and bemoan my humiliating situation before realizing that although I was only at about 150' of altitude and without a rudder, I was nevertheless in a rather nice thermal. While the other three members of my flight group took their full launches and ran off to parts unknown in search of a thermal, I merrily circled away and climbed ever higher. All of my turns were awkward and uncoordinated but with all that lift, who cares about coordination? My course of action was now clear. I would stay with that thermal until the rest of the flight group was on the ground or I could no longer see the model. For the next six or seven minutes I flew the model and tracked the thermal as best I could while attempting to get my timer to understand that I really wanted to know what the other guys in my flight group were doing. By the time that was all sorted out and the other guys in the group had landed, my model was but a tiny speck on the horizon. It was now safe to leave that thermal and return to the field. The model was so high and so far downwind at that point that no one else could see it unless I pitched up momentarily to show the bottom of the model. I finished the 15 minute task and even got some landing points, all without a rudder. So that's what happened to Mark (and maybe Jose). He/they had the misfortune of being in a flight group with a very lucky wounded animal. Phil RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Flying wings for F3J or F3B
Bill Swingle wrote: However, I've been told that thermal flyers find it difficult to fly a plane well without the visual indicator of a tail. Bill Swingle I've heard that but I don't see it. I flew a flying wing in TD contests for several years and never had any real problems with knowing which way it was going. Of course, if you're referring to seeing the tail kick up as an indication of lift, then yes, a flying wing will be deficient in that department. I finally gave up on the wings because I couldn't consistently launch as high as the conventional sailplanes. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Soaring, TD, Icon, NASCAR...
On 9/27/04 20:14 Joe Wurts wrote: > If the precision > flying with respect to the ground is what was important to me, I would have > taken up pattern flying. And trust me Joe, I have been trying to tell them how lucky they are that you made this decision !! ~~~ Bill Malvey RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
RE: [RCSE] Re: Soaring V1 #4359
Shoot, even REAL airplanes know not to land downwind â Tom Copp Composite Specialties www.f3x.com 949-645-7032 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 8:23 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [RCSE] Re: Soaring V1 #4359 In a message dated 9/25/04 10:34:55 PM Mountain Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: "Tom Copp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 5:07 PM Subject: [RCSE] Did you hear? No skegs at Visalia this year! !!!Sucker!!! How about adding some extra skill. Anyone up for No skegs? I'm in! You? Sounds great to lose the skegs. They they make all landings very ugly and unlike full scale sailplanes. You don'r need them if you learn how to land and don't land downwind. Dale Nutter RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] Re: Soaring V1 #4359
In a message dated 9/25/04 10:34:55 PM Mountain Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: "Tom Copp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2004 5:07 PM Subject: [RCSE] Did you hear? No skegs at Visalia this year! !!!Sucker!!! How about adding some extra skill. Anyone up for No skegs? I'm in! You? Sounds great to lose the skegs. They they make all landings very ugly and unlike full scale sailplanes. You don'r need them if you learn how to land and don't land downwind. Dale Nutter
[RCSE] Soaring, TD, Icon, NASCAR...
It isn't even GPS season yet. I wish that there was a way to transmute the standard TD contest into a soaring contest, but it just isn't going to happen. Every so often a soaring contest breaks out in the middle of a TD event, but not that often out here in the west. Typically, the thermal portion is just a minor barrier to be stepped over before the real money is made or lost in the landing circle. My view is that I like soaring events. If the precision flying with respect to the ground is what was important to me, I would have taken up pattern flying. In other words, I don't really look at landing proficiency in the same light as I do soaring proficiency. I can say that I've won, and lost, the biggest events in the world due to landings. But what I treasure are the soaring flights in these events, not drilling the plane into the sod accurately. Fortunately, there are some real soaring events out there for the intrepid of heart. A couple of weeks ago I attended what I consider the pinnacle of soaring flying, a cross-country contest. And even better, all of the competitors flew for a large portion of the day, with some for more than seven hours on Saturday. The average distance flown on Saturday was 64 miles per team, with the top three teams getting more than 90 miles. Note, this is in a single flight, not an add-em-up. Yup, conditions were good, although it was shut down early when a layer of mid altitude stratus moved over the area. Lots of people flying a soaring contest, and the landings were measured not with a tape, but an odometer! There are other contests that are all about soaring, and not so much about landing. HLG is a good one. It is all about reading and working the air, with a derived requirement for good control of the airplane both for thermalling, and in the turnaround when the conditions are good. F3B is a pre-eminent example, although it has some other challenges which make it more difficult to learn. BTW, if you can't handle your plane properly, you cannot soar well, so I'm not sure that I totally agree about the airplane handling justification for the emphasis on landings are merited. To paraphrase Bozo, I got the plane that I designed... And I finally figured out how to design the airplane that matches my flying style, which is what it is all about. Find out what floats your boat, and LEARN how to fly it. The plane of the month club members typically don't earn much wood in the winners circle. I also happen to believe that it gives me an advantage, but your mileage may vary. It is just that it is such a good match for how I want an airplane to fly. Of course, this won't stop my search for the next world beater! NASCAR. The rules that they are using are silly for measuring the best team in the season. But, they work well for the advertising. Guess what, NASCAR isn't about the racing, it is about a very large, and very successful, business. If a team has wrapped up the season championship in points well before the last race, fewer people are going to be watching, which means lower advertising revenue. Not exactly an appropriate analogy for soaring, as much fun as it would be... DP did note that it does match up fairly well with F3J. Throwing out the preliminary scores just doesn't make much sense to a lot of people. Back to lurking, Joe Wurts PS A moment of silence is requested for my now deceased XC ship, Wile E.s Revenge. Wiley has finally departed to the great thermal in the sky after almost two decades of cross-country soaring. Time to design the next generation XC ship after a suitable mourning period. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] LISF Fall contest report
Anker, I don't have a Supra. It was my F3b model that I don't have time to name. Mark and Tom's Supra's happen to have my F3b pod on them. Planform isn't all that different though, but mine is 20 oz heavier and goes a lot faster and has no dihedral in the center panel. Mine took even longer than Mark's to build. At least sunday was all 10 minutes so I had a F3b task A practice day with short launches. The other good part about this contest is experts time sportsman and sportsman time experts. I know of at least 4 models that left with much better programming than they had at the start of the contest. Anker Berg-Sonne wrote: A fairly small group made the second trek this year to Syossett, Long Island, for the LISF Fall contest: David Walter, Lost Bruzual, Mark Drela, Bruce Schneider and Yours Truly. Fritz Bien was committed to a wedding, Jeff Newcum has left the hobby and sold all his planes, Jan Kansky had messed up his schedule, John Nilsson is out rooting for Kerry, and Miner Crary must have decided not to visit his relatives in NY. They missed out on a great contest. The forecast was for light winds, temperatures in the 70’s and partly cloudy conditions, which turned out to be pretty close. Saturday’s briefing followed the standard, tough, LISF script: Man-on-man, Experts against Experts, Sportsmen against Sportsmen, no field boundaries (but good luck finding your plane in the woods), you get sent home in disgrace if you land in the near-by soccer fields, one pop-off in the first round for experts, and after that “fly it out”, sportsmen got one pop-off per day, line breaks would result in public humiliation, landings 5 foot graduated tapes, 50 points max. Round 1 was a 7 minute round, and after that we flew 8 minute rounds with a final one of 15 minutes. The first two rounds were quite challenging with broad and very light lift. Mark Drela’s Supra and Mark’s fingers performed superbly in these early rounds. I am dying to get my hands on a 48 oz, 130” ship, but I know I don’t have the skill, patience, etc. to build one from scratch. The rest of the rounds we had slightly better lift, but it never boomed, and you really had to work at getting your times. Pop-off were very infrequent, I believe limited to Sportsmen, and there was just one line break, which resulted in the promised public humiliation of Tony Guide. The last round really helped spread the scores, which had been quite close through the day. After the last round we were told that a problem with the scoring program prevented scores from being posted, but we were promised final results the next day. After staying up late that night, the scores were straightened out and were as follows: Tom Kiesling took first, followed by our David Walter, then Phil Barnes, John Jenks and just out of the wood, me. Jose made 7th, and Mark Drela was dead last in Expert. In Sportsman Leszek Zyga took first, Luis Bustamante second, our Bruce Schneider 3rd and Fred Tyra 4th. Tom’s performance needs no comment. Dave Walter continues to prove the point that a good pilot with a familiar plane has a strong edge. In these conditions a heavy plane with a 7037 airfoil should be outclassed by Aegeas and Supras, but Dave can fly any conditions and place at the top, I got what I deserved, but I wonder what happened to Jose and especially Mark. Jose is flying his MH-32 Mantis really well, and I thought Mark was right up with the winners. It is hard to keep up with what is going on at a Man-on-Man contest, especially of you have equipment problems. I was plagued all weekend by failing wiring and was thoroughly chastised by a “helpful” group of bystanders for my lack of shrinkwrap over my solder joints. The only “interesting” incident was when one of the sportsmen’s Manti lost a tail on launch. Sunday’s briefing was “same as yesterday”, but with 10 minute rounds all day. The first round was flown with a thin cloud cover, but that quickly burned off and we had blue skies the rest of the day. Both the first and second rounds had very light lift, but after that we had boomers. At times the lift would be as good as I have ever experienced. At low altitude you had to locate the lift, but once you got to altitude the 10 minutes would be “no problem”. This actually made the 10 minute tasks “bad”. If you missed the thermals in one round you got buried so deep you couldn’t climb out, AND when you caught it, the flying got really boring. Dave Walter became victim to this in the last round. He had been doing great, as usual, and in the last round it was Tom Kiesling, Dave, myself and Tony Guide. Tom launched first and took off in a bee-line. Tony launched and followed Tom. Dave then launched and decided to find his own air because Tom is a very hard person to follow – by the time he reaches the thermal we normally have lost too much altitude to catch it. I was lucky, because Tom found a great thermal before I had come off the zoom. So all I had to do was to fly over an
[RCSE] Troy Lawicki
Troy, I've been trying to call you for about 2hrs. Your phone's been very busy. Please call by !!:00 586-781-2865 this eve or 248-515-2153 tomorrow. Dave.
RE: [RCSE] MOM scoring
Thanks guys - I've had several emails explaining how to do MoM scoring - that is not the problem - I do it for our club contests every month - we always run MoM! The issue is that someone wants to use the landings only as tiebreakers - NOT ADDED INTO THE SCORES. So the question remains, and make it simple - a 10 minute task. Under the rule that landings only are used as tiebreakers, we can easily determine placing, but what are the scores we use? Did both pilot 1 and 2 get 1000 point rounds? Do we wait until the end and then add in the landings for the tied scores then? So do they get points for those landings somehow? So if I have a 2 pilots that are each a total of 4 seconds off the time but had crappy landings of 30 and 35 points, and another guy that was 5 seconds off the total time, but got 100 landing, the first 2 pilots are the winners of 1st and 2nd place? And what is their final score? Assume a one round contest for now to make it easy. Remember I don't want their PLACE - I want how many points they earned at the end of the contest towards the year end trophies... Methinks this is not a really good idea... If ya have landings - ya gotta count them. Jim (still practicing landings every day!!!) Jim Monaco Rocky Mountain Soaring Association Denver, CO http://www.rmsadenver.com -Original Message- From: Barry Andersen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 6:46 PM To: RCSE Subject: [RCSE] MOM scoring Mom Scoring example snipped... RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
YES!! Bring it on!! F3B...F3B...F3B Tom New F3B guy Jeff Steifel wrote: You want to eliminate the landing or minimize it and have fun FLY F3B!!! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc. and Urban Legends :-)
Yep, people are leaving the hobby Yep, they arenot. Let's see, people are leaving soaring and that's why Hitec, JR, MPX are creating even more sailplane specific TX's. And why all the 'new' servos introduced by those and the other Mfgr's are sailplane oriented..mounts, configuration, torque etc. Its why inspite of mulitple suppliers of moldies around the world are back ordered up to 2 years. Yep its on the decline...yet there are more winch suppliers than ever before in our hobbies history. Less and less, is why there are now ARF balsa and covered RES ships available from major suppliers like Great Planes and Horizon. Yep the hobby is losing us fast, but not cuz of lack of interest or emotionally destructive landing tasks, but because of all those kidneys stolen while sailplaners are asleep in their motel rooms, for sale to the black market! .Really! We now have more newbies in our Louisville Club than maybe in its history! Its sickening to have to wait in line to get a relaunch! Gordy Gordy:-)
Re: [RCSE] Definition of Acceleration
This is exactly how it goes when my Tiger Moth passes a Slo Stick. JE -- Erickson Architects John R. Erickson, AIA > From: Simon Van Leeuwen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Organization: Radius Systems > Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 19:45:31 -0700 > To: 6-CRCSS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 5-Soaring Forum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > 2-IMAC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 4- GSAL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: [RCSE] Definition of Acceleration > > The dragster launches and starts after you. You keep your foot down > hard, but you hear an incredibly brutal whine that sears your eardrums > and within 3 seconds, the dragster catches and passes you. He beats you > to the finish line, a quarter mile away from where you just passed him. > > Think about it, from a standing start, the dragster had spotted you 200 > mph and not only caught, but nearly blasted you off the road when he > passed you within a mere 1,320 foot long race course. > > .and that my friend, is ACCELERATION! RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] Definition of Acceleration
The following came back to me (again) by way of email, although a bit dated, I thought some of you might enjoy; One Top Fuel dragster 500 cubic inch Hemi engine makes more horsepower than the first 4 rows of stock cars at the Daytona 500. Under full throttle, a dragster engine consumes 1-1/2 gallons of nitro methane per second; a fully loaded 747 consumes jet fuel at the same rate with 25% less energy being produced. A stock Dodge Hemi V8 engine cannot produce enough power to drive the dragster's supercharger. With 3,000 CFM (cubic feet per minute) of air being rammed in by the supercharger on overdrive, the fuel mixture is compressed into a near-solid form before ignition. Cylinders run on the verge of hydraulic lock at full throttle. At the stoichiometric (stoichiometry: methodology and technology by which quantities of reactants and products in chemical reactions are determined) 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture for nitro methane, the flame front temperature measures 7,050 deg F. Nitro methane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above the stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from atmospheric water vapor by the searing exhaust gases. Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is the output of an arc welder in each cylinder. Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed during a pass. After halfway, the engine is dieseling from compression, plus the glow of exhaust valves at 1,400 degrees F. The engine can only be shut down by cutting the fuel flow. If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds up in the affected cylinders and then explodes with sufficient force to blow cylinder heads off the block in pieces or split the block in half. In order to exceed 300 mph in 4.5 seconds, dragsters must accelerate an average of over 4G's. In order to reach 200 mph (well before half-track), the launch acceleration approaches 8G's. Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have completed reading this sentence. Top Fuel engines turn approximately 540 revolutions from light to light! Including the burnout, the engine must only survive 900 revolutions under load. The redline is actually quite high at 9,500 rpm. Assuming all the equipment is paid off, the crew worked for free, and for once NOTHING BLOWS UP, each run costs an estimated $1,000.00 per second. The current Top Fuel dragster elapsed time record is 4.441 seconds for the quarter mile (10/05/03, Tony Schumacher). The top speed record is 333.00 mph. (533 km/h) as measured over the last 66' of the run (09/28/03 Doug Kalitta). Putting all of this into perspective: You are driving the average $140,000 Lingenfelter "twin-turbo" powered Corvette Z06. Over a mile up the road, a Top Fuel dragster is staged and ready to launch down a quarter mile strip as you pass. You have the advantage of a flying start. You run the 'Vette hard up through the gears and blast across the starting line and past the dragster at an honest 200 mph. The 'tree' goes green for both of you at that moment. The dragster launches and starts after you. You keep your foot down hard, but you hear an incredibly brutal whine that sears your eardrums and within 3 seconds, the dragster catches and passes you. He beats you to the finish line, a quarter mile away from where you just passed him. Think about it, from a standing start, the dragster had spotted you 200 mph and not only caught, but nearly blasted you off the road when he passed you within a mere 1,320 foot long race course. .and that my friend, is ACCELERATION! Simon Van Leeuwen RADIUS SYSTEMS PnP SYSTEMS - The E-Harness of Choice Cogito Ergo Zooom RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Sort of the same concept as the Royal Order of Thermal Wizards task, a contest run within a contest where the Thermal Wizard attempts to get all 10mins, instead of the 3, 5,7,9, 10 tasks. Check out Harlely M.s Website, its all there and of course the article in a back issue of RC Soaring Digest Magazine! Gordy
Re: [RCSE] Flight testing the 9303
Thanks Mike, I will give those a try. At 06:40 PM 9/26/2004, Michael Lachowski wrote: Check out the Horizon pages. You can get longer sticks and you can get them in gold, red, and blue. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV ICQ: 6997780 AIM: InventorJim R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Rather than longer flight tasks, why not shorten the launch lines? 800'-1,000 ' lines seems like overkill with the planes we have today. Can you fly day one at 700' and day two at 500'? Or would the plane redesign just offset it? Frank Jarratt RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] MOM scoring
So let me get this straight (as a scorekeeper kind of guy!). In a MoM contest I have 5 pilots in the group. Pilot 1: -1 sec 85 Landing Pilot 2: -1 sec 80 Landing Pilot 3: +3 sec 75 Landing Pilot 4: +4 sec 95 Landing Pilot 5: -4 sec 99 Landing What are the scores? How about the SWC where I probably have dozens of pilots with the same times scattered thru the standings? I don't get it - I guess I'm thick. Any scoring method needs to be reasonably understandable. Jim Rocky Mountain Soaring Association (anal scorekeeper). Not hard, though you haven't shown the task time. Let's assume that it's 10 minutes. Closest times are the two tied -1 second. That makes 9:59, or 599 seconds, the 1000 point time, so +3 seconds is 597 seconds so it scores 597/599 or 997 points, +4 is 596 or 995 points, -4 same. Add landing scores for final Pilot 1: 599 + 85 = 684 Pilot 2: 599 + 80 = 679 Pilot 3: 597 + 75 = 672 Pilot 4: 596 + 95 = 691 Pilot 5: 596 = 99 = 695 I guess this example shows that landings win, if that's someone's goal here. What you don't see is the fun that happens over a day of long tasks, 12 to 15 minute rounds when someone gets out alone, or one or two guys get out and others don't. Remember, nearly simultaneous launch, same air for all. So now in a 15 minute task = 900 seconds: Pilot 1: 15:03 90 landing Pilot 2: 9:58 99 landing Pilot 3: 9:5690 landing etc Now top score is 897 secs for 1000 points, pilot two gets 598 secs or 598/897; 667 points all plus landings. If the event is seeded, at the end of the round, the pilot flight order is shuffled to put like points together. This gives the pilots with less experience the chance to win a round flying with their peers in a group. In the above example, the pilot 2, 3, 4, 5 guys may have been playing cover, pilot one goes his own way, specs out. Fun to watch and fly, cause it ain't over til it's over. Last round can have one guy get away and reshuffle the trophies. I've been hurt and helped by that, always fun. We nearly always use a simple landing tape, seems the fairest solution to me. How close can you get to the spot at the task time. Simple right? Hope this helps; sorry it had to be long. Barry Andersen PS Cincinnati Soaring Society's Pumpkin Fly will use this method with a dynamite scoring guy, Bob Scheidt. Bob gets the scoring done really fast and guys flying without delay. Come have fun Oct 16-17. Special extra fine trophy for weekend grand champion of the 25th anniversary event. http://www.cincinnatisoaring.org shameless plug for doing the math above RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] vision question (the radio)
Maybe one of you vision radio experts can help with this one. 6 servo set up in a Hera. on both sides of the Vee, when elevator dual rate is enabled, both control surfaces do a down elevator move. when switched to full rate, the surfaces go back to neutral trim. The only mix is flap to elevator. when that is taken out surfaces still move when dual rate is enabled. aileron dual rate has no effect on the tail surfaces, just the elevator dual rate. Thought I had seen it all. This ones new to me. RX is a 7 channel airtronics blue cube ppm. Thanks Dan Fink
[RCSE] LISF Fall contest report
A fairly small group made the second trek this year to Syossett, Long Island, for the LISF Fall contest: David Walter, Lost Bruzual, Mark Drela, Bruce Schneider and Yours Truly. Fritz Bien was committed to a wedding, Jeff Newcum has left the hobby and sold all his planes, Jan Kansky had messed up his schedule, John Nilsson is out rooting for Kerry, and Miner Crary must have decided not to visit his relatives in NY. They missed out on a great contest. The forecast was for light winds, temperatures in the 70s and partly cloudy conditions, which turned out to be pretty close. Saturdays briefing followed the standard, tough, LISF script: Man-on-man, Experts against Experts, Sportsmen against Sportsmen, no field boundaries (but good luck finding your plane in the woods), you get sent home in disgrace if you land in the near-by soccer fields, one pop-off in the first round for experts, and after that fly it out, sportsmen got one pop-off per day, line breaks would result in public humiliation, landings 5 foot graduated tapes, 50 points max. Round 1 was a 7 minute round, and after that we flew 8 minute rounds with a final one of 15 minutes. The first two rounds were quite challenging with broad and very light lift. Mark Drelas Supra and Marks fingers performed superbly in these early rounds. I am dying to get my hands on a 48 oz, 130 ship, but I know I dont have the skill, patience, etc. to build one from scratch. The rest of the rounds we had slightly better lift, but it never boomed, and you really had to work at getting your times. Pop-off were very infrequent, I believe limited to Sportsmen, and there was just one line break, which resulted in the promised public humiliation of Tony Guide. The last round really helped spread the scores, which had been quite close through the day. After the last round we were told that a problem with the scoring program prevented scores from being posted, but we were promised final results the next day. After staying up late that night, the scores were straightened out and were as follows: Tom Kiesling took first, followed by our David Walter, then Phil Barnes, John Jenks and just out of the wood, me. Jose made 7th, and Mark Drela was dead last in Expert. In Sportsman Leszek Zyga took first, Luis Bustamante second, our Bruce Schneider 3rd and Fred Tyra 4th. Toms performance needs no comment. Dave Walter continues to prove the point that a good pilot with a familiar plane has a strong edge. In these conditions a heavy plane with a 7037 airfoil should be outclassed by Aegeas and Supras, but Dave can fly any conditions and place at the top, I got what I deserved, but I wonder what happened to Jose and especially Mark. Jose is flying his MH-32 Mantis really well, and I thought Mark was right up with the winners. It is hard to keep up with what is going on at a Man-on-Man contest, especially of you have equipment problems. I was plagued all weekend by failing wiring and was thoroughly chastised by a helpful group of bystanders for my lack of shrinkwrap over my solder joints. The only interesting incident was when one of the sportsmens Manti lost a tail on launch. Sundays briefing was same as yesterday, but with 10 minute rounds all day. The first round was flown with a thin cloud cover, but that quickly burned off and we had blue skies the rest of the day. Both the first and second rounds had very light lift, but after that we had boomers. At times the lift would be as good as I have ever experienced. At low altitude you had to locate the lift, but once you got to altitude the 10 minutes would be no problem. This actually made the 10 minute tasks bad. If you missed the thermals in one round you got buried so deep you couldnt climb out, AND when you caught it, the flying got really boring. Dave Walter became victim to this in the last round. He had been doing great, as usual, and in the last round it was Tom Kiesling, Dave, myself and Tony Guide. Tom launched first and took off in a bee-line. Tony launched and followed Tom. Dave then launched and decided to find his own air because Tom is a very hard person to follow by the time he reaches the thermal we normally have lost too much altitude to catch it. I was lucky, because Tom found a great thermal before I had come off the zoom. So all I had to do was to fly over and join Tom and Tony. Poor Dave was slammed into the ground and ended up in the middle of the contest results. One bad move, and out of the running. The same happened to Mark Drela, on top all day and then one bad final flight. For entertainment we had Paul Bell, the CD, loose radio contact with his plane and get more upset than I have ever seen him before. He is going to have to buy a new antenna. The CD from Saturday, John Hauff, managed to pull the wing hold-down block out on launch and try to spear the guy at the turnarounds, and Tom landed his plane in the woods, but did not loose his time because of the absence of field boundarie
RE: [RCSE] Monkeying with Contest Tasks.
Well if something can't be improved, then it is perfect, the problem is there is no such thing. There is always room for improvement of a system, especially after 30 years. Sounds so much like "it was good enough for me so it has to be good enough for my children" The real problems are the sacred cows that no one has the courage or energy to get rid of. Change promotes growth, without change and legitimate evolution of a system, it dies. People (those with the ability to actually change things) have too much invested in the status quo, nothing will likely change in TD anytime soon. JD Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Chuck Anderson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 6:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [RCSE] Monkeying with Contest Tasks. I see we are in for another round of proposals to improve the tasks flown in contests. So far, I haven't seen anything that hasn't been tried at least once in the last 30 years RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Different landing task?
Here is a landing variation for you guys that fly open winch, I think Richard Burnoski came up with this one. Have 3 different length tapes, one that is 1' diameter for 100 points, one that is 3' diameter for 50 points, and the last one that is 6' diameter for 25 points. You can only pick one tape to make a landing approach on per flight, (i.e. if the plane "accidently" landed on another tape it does not score), and all the tapes are in or out. You might be surprised on the tape the big boys line up at. 8-) At 06:55 PM 9/27/2004, Jeff Gortatowsky wrote: I wonder??? For something different... Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV ICQ: 6997780 AIM: InventorJim R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] Different landing task?
Hey Jack??? How does one get a CD license? I thought it was anyone who'd take the job! :D I wonder??? For something different... Anyone ever try a ribbon say 1 meter above, and say 3 meters to either side of, the far end of the landing tape? One needs to be below the ribbon or there is a (small??) percentage penalty on the landing points? Or a bonus for going under it on approach? Of course one needs to avoid the sticks holding the ribbon (they'd be frail as to not damage a plane). That might discourage the 'planting it from 5 feet up' syndrome? Okay... pretty dumb... but a thought. :D More stupidity (as long as I am on a roll, LOL!)... 1.5 meters above the ribbon at the far end of the tape... but only 1 meter halfway down the tape... 60cm at the 90 point mark... kind of an 'optimum glide path marker...' Hit or go above a ribbon lose 5%, 3%, 1% landing points (assuming you get some) respectively??? (Might make V tails popular again LOL!) You still get points, just not quite as many as if you do make an 'optimum' approach. Stupid??? Right... Okay... I'll shut up... :D >From above: 6 meters long ++ < 1.5 meters above ground = = = = = = ++ <--- 1 meter above ground = = = = = ++ <--- 60cm above ground = 100 points from the side: ++ 1.5m ++ 1m ++ .6m =<--- 100 point tape RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Monkeying with Contest Tasks.
That being said, we're running a contest Saturday in Houston. It's a stairstep contest and there are no landing points. That doesn't mean there are no landings. The landing zone must be made or the flight must be repeated. We're flying 2 classes, Novice and Expert. Novice will have a larger landing zone. Expert will start 2 minutes higher in the time category. But the landings have to be made. If I'm whining, what are you doing? If I'm Monkeying, it's about time someone did. If I held a 10 minute duration contest with 100 point landings, we'd get about half what I expect to see this Saturday. I've done this before, and it's fun, the contestants like it, and feel like they have a chance. 10 minutes with a 100 point landing, ho-hum, probably not... Man-on-man is great if you have enough flyers to mix the groups up good. It's by far the most challengeing and rewarding format I've seen. I think you have to have 30+ flyers to accomplish it in groups of 4 or more. Jack Womack --- Chuck Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I see we are in for another round of proposals to > improve the tasks flown > in contests. So far, I haven't seen anything that > hasn't been tried at > least once in the last 30 years. Usually, someone > becomes unhappy with > whatever is giving them trouble at contests and sets > out to improve the > system by remove whatever is causing them trouble. > Reminds me of something > that I saw almost 30 years ago. A CD was unhappy > with Triathalon because > he was always landing on the odd minutes losing all > precision scores. He > decided to run a contest with his version of > Triathalon where maximum > scores are achieved by landing on odd minutes. Of > course everybody knows > what happened. He landed on the even minutes every > round. > > Chuck Anderson > > > RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane > News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests > to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that > subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in > text only format with MIME turned off. > __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Oh no, not the Contest Landing thread . . . next it'll be landing arrestors and the downwind turn theory OK, never chimed in on this topic but "been-there-done-that" since the time of Doodlers and Monterrays so I can't resist: 1) Landing tasks add complexity to the duration and that makes it a challenge -- making it harder is a good thing! 2) Simultaneously accomplishing your duration target and terminating the flight at a "precise location", is the best measure of how well you've FLOWN your task. 3) Soaring skill is energy management . . . both going up and coming down!!! 4) If you don't like javelin landings . . . practice more . . . spiking it is not a technique, it's desperation! There's little else more exhilarating than your ship floating in, nose down, over the end of landing tape threshold with 12 inches of altitude and your timer saying " . . . two . . . one . . . mark!" Brian Molloy MVSA St. Louis 88668 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] Monkeying with Contest Tasks.
I see we are in for another round of proposals to improve the tasks flown in contests. So far, I haven't seen anything that hasn't been tried at least once in the last 30 years. Usually, someone becomes unhappy with whatever is giving them trouble at contests and sets out to improve the system by remove whatever is causing them trouble. Reminds me of something that I saw almost 30 years ago. A CD was unhappy with Triathalon because he was always landing on the odd minutes losing all precision scores. He decided to run a contest with his version of Triathalon where maximum scores are achieved by landing on odd minutes. Of course everybody knows what happened. He landed on the even minutes every round. Chuck Anderson RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Anybody a free flighter in here and know anything about the Super Max? I have a faint memory of reading an article about it the AMA magazine. Something to do with overflying the max time and trying to reach a "super max" in the first round (light morning air, etc.). If you don't reach the super max, there is a penalty. If you do, it can be used as a tie breaker...or something along those lines. Might be adaptable to our RC contests. Anybody familiar with this that can set me straight? Bill Wingstedt
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
As most of you know, I love data (no, NOT the android on Star Trek TNG!). So here is some data. At the SC2 contest yesterday here are the times in seconds off the total of 1,500 possible (5, 10, 10 min tasks): Place - Time off - total landing 1 - 2 - 147 2 - 3 - 141 3 - 2 - 127 4 - 3 - 118 5 - 4 - 97 6 - 5 - 88 7 - 26 - 92 8 - 8 - 47 9 - 71 - 48 10 - 207 - 135 11 - 273 - 50 12 - 366 - 87 This was in our Expert (top) class. Landing was a short runway with points off for distance away from the centerline. 50 points max. 5 minute round was 3.167 points/second, 10 minute rounds were 1.58 points per second. Just some data to chew on. For me, it looks about right. ~~~ Bill Malvey RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] And from the way back file
There was a time ( ~ 25 years ago) when a really good SoCal pilot named Mark Smith (Windward, Windfree fame) could do time and landing on the nose just about every time. His technique was to bring the plane down to ground effect height, kiss the nose to the earth at the exact time (stops the clock), bounce it back in the air and fly it in for the landing. No skids. No skegs. Just the sweetest contest moves I ever saw. - dave r
Re: [RCSE] Landings, etc.
Maybe you've agreed to not tip the Okie outhouse, but I haven't.. By the way, will they be segregated this year? I mean ... one for Texans, and one for Okies? Talk to the ranch folks about that, will ya? Jack Womack --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Good comments all around. I certainly agree with > the suggestion that it > works best if those who have ideas become CDs and > try them out to get feedback. > Tim's done that. I've done that. Many of the others > posting have done that. > > And we each come to somewhat different conclusions > about how to address the > issue. > > Interesting. > > So we go with what works - post the rules and > potential attendees decide if > that works for them. If not, don't attend. Maybe > someday someone will hit the > perfect combination for everyone but it's still out > there waiting to be > discovered. > > I guess my concern is not in the details but in the > ability to continue to > attract new pilots to the competitive side of the > sport. As has been noted, > NATS, Visalia, etc. are special cases. But what > should we do at the local level > which will be inclusive enough to keep the > competitive juices going but not > be discouraging to entry level pilots? > > Yeah, there's the part about 'tough noogies, take > your lumps and learn'. > You'll get plenty of that once you get started. But > how do you keep them going > through the first contest season so they want to > keep coming back? Unless you > already know a lot of guys and just enjoy the > experience, it can get old > being cannon fodder for others. > > Hope Visalia is a great event (again). Watch out for > Nutter - he's been > practicing. > > Closer to home, TNT is two weeks out and shaping up > to be a great contest > (shameless plug for our Texas brethren). Tim, Henry > and the guys are working > hard to make it a great weekend at Southfork in > Dallas. They've even agreed to > stop tipping over the outhouse when an Okie is in > it! > > - dave r > > RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane > News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests > to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that > subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in > text only format with MIME turned off. > ___ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] Vision transmitter/Shot in the dark
Any new 9303 owners happen to have an "as new" Vision transmitter they want to sell reasonable?? Just need a transmitter..Don't even need a module unless it is on the 50 MHz band..Thanks..Brian RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Who said anything about making it easier? I can land with most competition pilots. I can certainly fly with most competition pilosts. I don't want to make it easier. I just want to de emphasize landings so that someone can't make up 66 seconds like Tim Bennet pointed out. I want to make it a soaring contest, and again, just not the same old thing. I've been back in the hobby 4 years and I'm already bored with the same old thing. As I remember it, and as one that was around in the early days of competition, landings were added as tie breakers. Let's get back to that basic. Let's have it there as a tie breaker, ONLY. If someone doesn't outright win, check their landing scores. The one with the most landing points wins and the other is second. WHAT A CONCEPT!!! Then it's a soaring contest that can't be won outright by making a bad flight decision and making it up on landings. Don't tell me it doesn't happen because I've been on both ends of that one, winning and losing. Some people just can't believe this comes up... The rest of us just can't believe it has never been changed. We're just as incredulous about this as you are. Jack Womack --- Jeff Steifel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yep, people are leaving the hobby. > The numbers are down for golf too. > Does making the task easier keep the attraction? NO > Make things too easy and people lose interest as > well. > People will lose interest because they want instant > gratification. > > You want to eliminate the landing or minimize it and > have fun FLY F3B!!! > It has a landing that is 100 points for a 1 meter > radius, and drops by 5 > for every meter. > So you can get some points without having to dork > it. Landing is only > important during TD portion and isn't present in > speed or distance. > > You want more fun? Fly XCountry F3J, combat, > Slope race. Each of > those disciplines mentioned will get the adrenaline > pumped. But please > don't tell me that the landing task makes it boring > (because it is the > same old thing) Removing the landing task will do > nothing to add to the > excitement. The top pilots will make their times, so > it certainly is not > boring to add landings. Besides ever watch some out > of control > landing It's not boring 8>) > > Jack Womack wrote: > > >Have a CD license, run large contests, etc... I > know > >what they are like. I also know that we have folks > >that are stone cold bored with the same old thing. > >Like someone else posted, this has been this way > since > >1971 or longer. I left this hobby from shear > boredom > >in 1980 and just came back 4 years ago to guess > >what... the same old thing... It still boils down > to > >this: If you want to run a contest, you set the > task. > >If it's the same old thing and you have no turn out > or > >a great turn out, it's still the same old thing. If > >the task is published ahead of time, and it's the > same > >old thing, I may come but I may find something else > to > >do. If it's something different that peaks my > >interest, I'll probably break my neck to get there, > >just to see if it works. > > > >Jack Womack > > > > > >--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > > > > >>Chuck, once again experience speaks loud and > clear. > >> > >> Let those who have better ideas step up to the > >>pump, get their CD license, > >>and run some serious contests, like the Soaring > >>Nats, the Southwest Classic, > >>etc, try these new ideas and find out what the > >>contestants really like and what > >>really works, and then if they still like their > new > >>landing or not landing > >>schemes, get involved in a rules change. > >> > >>Just stop whining and get on with life. > >> > >>Regards, Dave Corven, > >>AMA 878, LSF254 and damn near Level 5. > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > >__ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other > providers! > >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > >RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane > News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests > to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that > subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in > text only format with MIME turned off. > > > > > > > > > > -- > Jeff Steifel > > > RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane > News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests > to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that > subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in > text only format with MIME turned off. > ___ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Daryl, You wrote: "The only problem is we haven't lengthened the tasks to keep up with the increased performance of our models." Do you really think lengthening the tasks will really do much more than reducing the number of rounds we fly rather than actually challenge our current equipment. Other than late evening rounds in F3J Finals (which I have never flown in)or really early morning starts (which I have flown in) I do not see the increase really affecting anything. Generally speaking if you have 10 minute air during the day, you have 15 0r 20 minute air as well. Most guys fly to a spec in the sky in the first 7 minutes and then speed down to set up for a landing. For The Landing Whiners (DP this not directed at you) As for landings, generally speaking the only people I have ever heard complain about landings are those that can't generally get points. Guys, it ain't going to matter how change the landing, the time or anything else, the Guys like DP, JW, Russ Young all the rest of the guys you see at the top of the page are always going to be there because they get out a practice. No more flying than I get to do these days, hell I am happy to get to fly I don't have time to worry about what the landing looks like or is scored like, I am too busy having fun. I will say this though, no matter how little practice I get in, I am always game to join the landing for quarters or dollars that go on at most contests. No there is having real fun with your buds. See Ya, Pat McCleave Wichita, KS RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Daryl, Thanks for your comments. You make an interesting, but rather obscure point. There is clearly an issue of timing accuracy that needs to be addressed under the current format. My expectation would be that flying several rounds will resolve the discrepency you describe with more dependance on flying the time task consistently than any reliance on landing scores will provide. Do you really expect that there would be such a discrepancy after 7 or 10 rounds of flying? I also think it needs to be stated that there are more participants in any worthwhile contest than those consistently posting times within 1/2 second of the target flight after flight. Whatever scoring scheme is used should provide them with a fair way to measure their own performance against other similar flyers as well as to serve the elite competitors such as yourself. To the extent that your scenario is relevent, the real question then becomes: Is the landing task the right way to resolve such discrepencies? Also, isn't the real issue you raise scoring beyond the resolution of the timing technology? Tim - Original Message - From: "Daryl Perkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Tim Bennett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "John Erickson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 3:44 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc. > Gotta be careful here guys. When trying to > de-emphasize landings, we usually make some other > aspect of the task hyper-critical. > > John, you're right on the money. Tim, doesn't sound > like you're a contest flyer. Guys who fly to 9:46's > don't win contests where I'm from. > > Tim, in your scenario let's assume rounding: > > A 9:59.49 100 point landing loses to a 9:59.50 0 point > landing. Is this fair? You've overemphasized the > timer, his thumb, his ability to stop the clock right > as the plane touches the ground, etc > > I remember a contest up in No Cal. It was a huge in or > out landing. I hit the ground exactly as my timer said > 0. Unfortunately, he wasn't looking at his watch as he > counted down, and I was off time. > > Another contest in Riverside. It was a 2 day. Same > deal, they tried to de-emphasize the landing. The > spots were super small, and the best you could do was > a 5 point landing bonus. The hit for time was more > than 5 points per second. I decided to never even try > for a landing. I won that w/e without ever getting a > landing. Or trying to. > > Our contest formats have evolved I think to be a > relatively fair way of judging our soaring/energy > management skills. The only problem is we haven't > lengthened the tasks to keep up with the increased > performance of our models. > > > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
RE: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Great points, Daryl, The ESL seems to be slowly moving towards 5 foot, 50 point landing tapes. They are relatively difficult, but the points are small enough to avoid making it a "landing contest". This is especially true with the tasks tending to get longer and longer. These days a 7 minute task is "pretty easy" where it would have been "pretty hard" 15 years ago. Flying 10 to 15 minute tasks nowadays is not that rare. Anker RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Gotta be careful here guys. When trying to de-emphasize landings, we usually make some other aspect of the task hyper-critical. John, you're right on the money. Tim, doesn't sound like you're a contest flyer. Guys who fly to 9:46's don't win contests where I'm from. Tim, in your scenario let's assume rounding: A 9:59.49 100 point landing loses to a 9:59.50 0 point landing. Is this fair? You've overemphasized the timer, his thumb, his ability to stop the clock right as the plane touches the ground, etc I remember a contest up in No Cal. It was a huge in or out landing. I hit the ground exactly as my timer said 0. Unfortunately, he wasn't looking at his watch as he counted down, and I was off time. Another contest in Riverside. It was a 2 day. Same deal, they tried to de-emphasize the landing. The spots were super small, and the best you could do was a 5 point landing bonus. The hit for time was more than 5 points per second. I decided to never even try for a landing. I won that w/e without ever getting a landing. Or trying to. Our contest formats have evolved I think to be a relatively fair way of judging our soaring/energy management skills. The only problem is we haven't lengthened the tasks to keep up with the increased performance of our models. __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
So let me get this straight (as a scorekeeper kind of guy!). In a MoM contest I have 5 pilots in the group. Pilot 1: -1 sec 85 Landing Pilot 2: -1 sec 80 Landing Pilot 3: +3 sec 75 Landing Pilot 4: +4 sec 95 Landing Pilot 5: -4 sec 99 Landing What are the scores? How about the SWC where I probably have dozens of pilots with the same times scattered thru the standings? I don't get it - I guess I'm thick. Any scoring method needs to be reasonably understandable. Jim Rocky Mountain Soaring Association (anal scorekeeper). --- Tim Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: snipped section on using landing scores to break ties... RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
RE: [RCSE] Flying wings for F3J or F3B
Hi all, >From: "Douglas, Brent" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Without going into this too much, the best link I have for flying wings >is www.aerodesign.de - hint, it's in German. >Good list of ships used for F3J/B applications - also some great looking >electric flying wing designs. I tried one of the constant chord designs >as a sloper, and it worked very well. Thanks for that, I've been there. I was really looking for someone who's actually flown something like a CO7, since flight reports are few and far between. >From: Daryl Perkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Doubtful you'll never see one for either of these tasks. You can't set them up to launch effectively. >D The few flight reports that are available for the CO7 talk of it being able to outlaunch Ellipses and V-Ultras, so with proper setup they should be okay. http://www.glide.net.au/flyingwing/co7.htm Those aren't current competition models, but they were in the CO7's day. Don't know if things have changed to the point where a wing wouldn't be competitive anymore, but I don't think anyone really knows on this (NA) side of the pond. There are (or used to be) whole F3B competitions in Germany specifically for wings, but I never heard anything about them, or if they're still going on. The catch 22 seems to be that since few people are interested in such wings, there aren't many being flown. Since that small group of pilots doesn't contain a member who flies at the very top level of the sport, wings don't get exposure and there isn't any demand for them by the general population. No demand, no availability. Or they just aren't competitive enough and this whole line of questioning is moot. Of course, it could also be that Zagi's and their ilk are so annoying that a whole generation of pilots has such a low opinion of wings that they try to mentally block them out at every chance :) >From: John Derstine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Here is one contender, several are in the works here in the U.S. and it >has been rumored that they will be used for TD work as an experiment. At >7 pounds, hey are not specifically designed for this, but as a high >performance aerobat and thermal ship. >http://www.scalesoaring.net/EMM/Taborca.htm Sorry John, several Taborca's or several different designs? The Taborca looks like a nice model, but like you mention, it's really too heavy to be too competitive in either TD or F3J events. Take 2.5 lbs out and it might very well be, I don't know. That's actually one of the bigger issues I have with the available information. All the "F3J" designs I've seen so far aren't nearly strong enough to actually survive an F3J tow, and they all tend to be fairly crude structurally (6 oz plain weave carbon and 3 oz glass with a shear web, or layups of that nature). As a result, they're also very heavy for their size. Since I'm told that wings tend to behave like a conventional model that weighs 20% less, it's even more critical to engineer them properly. I think it would be very doable to engineer a wing that weighs 20% less than one with a conventional tail, but it leads me to believe that the effort in doing so might not really be worth it. That said, I don't know that for sure, and don't plan to give up flying "normal" F3X models for the time being. >From: Bill Swingle [EMAIL PROTECTED] >The comments that I've been told regarding tailless wings for thermal flying is that the performance >is reasonably good. The Tailless performance is quite doable and is being perfected. >However, I've been told that thermal flyers find it difficult to fly a plane well without the visual >indicator of a tail. I can definitely see visibility as a concern, but if it's just a matter of getting used to something that looks different (but the performance gain is there), I could work around it. Again, purely a theoretical exercise at this point, but it never hurts to learn something new. Thanks, Adam >From: "James V. Bacus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >You can speak for yourself here, but please don't speak for me. I don't >feel the same way. Wasn't trying to Jim, just a thought tacked onto the end of another post. I thought I'd actually gone out of my way to say that everyone was entitled to their own opinion, and I believe that. Members can use the list however they like. >From: Adam Till Cal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >"Members can do what they like when it comes down to it..." RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contest landings
At 02:17 PM 9/27/2004, Denny Zech wrote: All this talk about landings has my head spinning. What about launching? Some people launch higher than others. Is that a true test of soaring if you get an advantage right off the start? ;-) Stop it 8-) The only thing I can contribute to this thread is that ideas need to be tried to be proven, and there is no single magic answer that will cure all wrongs, there always seems that there is a compromise. The MoM format that we fly today in the OVSS evolved to what it is today through trial and error on the field in real contests. It wasn't just put together in a day, it has literally taken years to tweak it in. Some ideas have come from individuals, some have come from discussions on this exchange, but none of them were proven until we tried them. It becomes fairly clear what works and what doesn't work at that point. Jim Downers Grove, IL Member of the Chicago SOAR club, AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV ICQ: 6997780 AIM: InventorJim R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] FMS records ...
11178 meter = 36,673.2283465 foot [U.S.] Imposable to see the plane from the ground. I design the most realistic Scale sailplanes for FMS. Try to get one of those that high. Now thats a challenge. http://www.scalesoaring.net/EMM/FMS/fmspage.htm and http://ycsoaring.com/Lighthorse/index.htm go to downloads also on http://www.rcsim.de/ Lighthorse Silence is golden On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:56:46 +0930, Eddie Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi ... I just flew the diamant glider to 11178 m over the island in FMS. > Maximum gain > of altitude seen was 5.4m'sec. I gave up at 11178m as it just became too > boring. > > Maximum velocity on the way down was 44m/sec. and landed on the runway. > > Lets see who can beat these figures ;-) > > Eddie the Eagle > in sunny South Australia > > RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and > "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and > unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. > -- Ken York County Soaring "Lighthorse" Team YCS Silence is Golden RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] Contest landings
All this talk about landings has my head spinning. What about launching? Some people launch higher than others. Is that a true test of soaring if you get an advantage right off the start? ;-) Eliminating landing scores except as a tie breaker does nothing to the root question. How did you get more flying time getting rid of landings? Don't forget your timer isn't allowed to count down the last 10 seconds of a flight (a rule broken more often then kept). Flying man on man has resulted in our club getting more flights per contest than the open winch rules we used to use. Call up is even worse as you are at the wim of the lift/sink cycles. Solution is long task times, which also hurts beginners by causing fewer rounds flown and the sportsman who only flys 2 minutes of a task is going to sit and wait until the next round regardless of how you you score. Come this weekend to muncie, fly OVSS style man on man! More important have FUN! I'll be there to fly whatever Tom and Jerry come up with, and be happy for the opportunity to finish in the middle of the pack (I don't practice launching, landing, or flying enough) and enjoy the companionship of 30-40 other flyers who might feel like me, or maybe not, but I will be the one with the smile on my face, waiting for the chance to accidently bury a group of flyers even if I don't nail the landing or the launch Denny Almost level III (if only I didn't have to work and could practice more) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] Winch For Sale ** Price Reduced **
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276920 RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
- Original Message - From: "John Erickson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "John & Linda" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Soaring List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Tim Bennett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc. > The precision part is easy, especially if it doesn't matter where you land > (assuming you're inside the field boundaries). I think that if you polled > all pilots and they listed tasks in order of difficulty it would come out > like this: > > 1) Making a 100 point landing > 2) Making your time > 3) Landing on the right time > > Why de emphasize the skill that is the hardest to do? The way it has been > set up for years still has the landing as only worth 10% of the scoring (at > maximum) and in many contests only 5%. I think it is a fair allocation of > emphasis. > > We have a game, we have rules, and the guys that are always at the top are > the best ones at playing the game. They're not complaining about how it is > set up, they're practicing as it is set up. When Russ Young won Visalia he > had shot something like 200 landings over the few weeks prior to the > contest. He worked on his skills, which is how I see everyone make the > biggest strides in improving. > > If you are not into competition this entire conversation is moot, but since > we are talking about our current format, I thought I'd chime in. > > JE > -- > Erickson Architects > John R. Erickson, AIA > John, Your comments miss the point, in my opinion. My post addresses the issue of how to adjust the emphasis of our sailplane contests toward flying rather than landing. Your response says "Why de-emphasize the skill that is the hardest to do?" Thermalling inverted is even harder, why not emphasize that? How about flying blindfolded? Yes, we have a game and it has rules, but is there a better game? Can we get there with a simple change to one of the rules? Is it your argument that what we are doing now cannot be improved? In my proposal to use the landing points for tie breakers only, pilots will not ignore the landing target. As I stated, "A perfect flight with a 100 point landing wins every time..." Competitors will be trying for the spot every flight or risk losing. I assure you that in any significant contest there will be flyers making their times and their landings. Others will not be competitive by landing anywhere else on the field. The fact that, as you so clearly state, recognizing the key skills needed for an upcoming event, someone practices those skills and wins, does not respond to the question of whether those should be the key skills. It merely proves that those are the key skills. Why should a soaring contest be based on skill in archery? Practicing archery will help one win such a contest, but why should we do that? The fact that this is what we currently do does not justify it. Could there actually be a better idea? Your comment about the traditional weighting of landing points ignores the AMA rules for Triathlon (20% max for landing) and T3 Precision Duration (12.5% max for landing). Also, it has been my experience that many regional contests (including the one I attended 9/18-19 in Tulsa, OK) weigh the landing at 100 points of 1000 or 11%. On a six minute task, which was part of that event, that represents 39.6 seconds. On a ten minute task, also part of that event, that represents 66 seconds. Note that the longer the task the more time can be made up with landing points, regardless of what weight is applied to the landing. Increasing the length of the task does not necessarily de-emphasize the landing. A flight with a 75 point landing and a 10:00 time (1075) loses to one with a 100 point landing and a time of 9:46 (1076). Which pilot flew better? Did a pilot who missed the time by more than a minute fly better than one who made the time, but flipped over due to a gust in the landing circle? I don't think so. So how do we make the contest format reflect that? If all pilots fly perfectly, or nearly so, these issues do not apply, but we hope to attract more than just those pilots to our events and offer them a basis on which to compete as well. If we do not, does our sport have a future? What I propose is not a huge change. I think it deserves consideration and should be argued based on its merits. Those that will resist change, will resist change regardless of any merits. Those seeking better solutions will address the issues. Which are you? Tim Bennett RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Flying wings for F3J or F3B
I don't know, I launch mine from a winch. I use my xc winch which has 2500' of line and get good high launches. Put hook ahead of CG On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:21:34 -0700 (PDT), Daryl Perkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Doubtful you'll never see one for either of these > tasks. You can't set them up to launch effectively. > > D > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and > "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and > unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. > -- Ken York County Soaring "Lighthorse" Team YCS Silence is Golden RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Yep, people are leaving the hobby. The numbers are down for golf too. Does making the task easier keep the attraction? NO Make things too easy and people lose interest as well. People will lose interest because they want instant gratification. You want to eliminate the landing or minimize it and have fun FLY F3B!!! It has a landing that is 100 points for a 1 meter radius, and drops by 5 for every meter. So you can get some points without having to dork it. Landing is only important during TD portion and isn't present in speed or distance. You want more fun? Fly XCountry F3J, combat, Slope race. Each of those disciplines mentioned will get the adrenaline pumped. But please don't tell me that the landing task makes it boring (because it is the same old thing) Removing the landing task will do nothing to add to the excitement. The top pilots will make their times, so it certainly is not boring to add landings. Besides ever watch some out of control landing It's not boring 8>) Jack Womack wrote: Have a CD license, run large contests, etc... I know what they are like. I also know that we have folks that are stone cold bored with the same old thing. Like someone else posted, this has been this way since 1971 or longer. I left this hobby from shear boredom in 1980 and just came back 4 years ago to guess what... the same old thing... It still boils down to this: If you want to run a contest, you set the task. If it's the same old thing and you have no turn out or a great turn out, it's still the same old thing. If the task is published ahead of time, and it's the same old thing, I may come but I may find something else to do. If it's something different that peaks my interest, I'll probably break my neck to get there, just to see if it works. Jack Womack --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chuck, once again experience speaks loud and clear. Let those who have better ideas step up to the pump, get their CD license, and run some serious contests, like the Soaring Nats, the Southwest Classic, etc, try these new ideas and find out what the contestants really like and what really works, and then if they still like their new landing or not landing schemes, get involved in a rules change. Just stop whining and get on with life. Regards, Dave Corven, AMA 878, LSF254 and damn near Level 5. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. -- Jeff Steifel RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] Lithium Charger ?
WHO has the best price on a AstroFlight 109 Lithium charger? ? ? Someone have another brand they prefer?? 1 to 9 cell or?? LeeLeeCox-Nevada, U.S.A. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
[RCSE] Landings, etc.
Good comments all around. I certainly agree with the suggestion that it works best if those who have ideas become CDs and try them out to get feedback. Tim's done that. I've done that. Many of the others posting have done that. And we each come to somewhat different conclusions about how to address the issue. Interesting. So we go with what works - post the rules and potential attendees decide if that works for them. If not, don't attend. Maybe someday someone will hit the perfect combination for everyone but it's still out there waiting to be discovered. I guess my concern is not in the details but in the ability to continue to attract new pilots to the competitive side of the sport. As has been noted, NATS, Visalia, etc. are special cases. But what should we do at the local level which will be inclusive enough to keep the competitive juices going but not be discouraging to entry level pilots? Yeah, there's the part about 'tough noogies, take your lumps and learn'. You'll get plenty of that once you get started. But how do you keep them going through the first contest season so they want to keep coming back? Unless you already know a lot of guys and just enjoy the experience, it can get old being cannon fodder for others. Hope Visalia is a great event (again). Watch out for Nutter - he's been practicing. Closer to home, TNT is two weeks out and shaping up to be a great contest (shameless plug for our Texas brethren). Tim, Henry and the guys are working hard to make it a great weekend at Southfork in Dallas. They've even agreed to stop tipping over the outhouse when an Okie is in it! - dave r RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Flying wings for F3J or F3B
>if anyone on the list has any direct experience with the use of tailless >sailplanes for F3J or F3B. The comments that I've been told regarding tailless wings for thermal flying is that the performance is reasonably good. The Tailless performance is quite doable and is being perfected. However, I've been told that thermal flyers find it difficult to fly a plane well without the visual indicator of a tail. Bill Swingle RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Those who don't understand why we have landings as part of sailplane contest scoring should read The LSF Story by Scott Christensen. It can be found in the History section of the LSF web site (www.silentflight.org). He goes into great detail about why landings were incorporated into flight scoring. Scott is LSF 001 and was one of the founders of LSF. Chuck Anderson RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
RE: [RCSE] Flying wings for F3J or F3B
Doubtful you'll never see one for either of these tasks. You can't set them up to launch effectively. D __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Contests, Landings, etc.
Have a CD license, run large contests, etc... I know what they are like. I also know that we have folks that are stone cold bored with the same old thing. Like someone else posted, this has been this way since 1971 or longer. I left this hobby from shear boredom in 1980 and just came back 4 years ago to guess what... the same old thing... It still boils down to this: If you want to run a contest, you set the task. If it's the same old thing and you have no turn out or a great turn out, it's still the same old thing. If the task is published ahead of time, and it's the same old thing, I may come but I may find something else to do. If it's something different that peaks my interest, I'll probably break my neck to get there, just to see if it works. Jack Womack --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Chuck, once again experience speaks loud and clear. > > Let those who have better ideas step up to the > pump, get their CD license, > and run some serious contests, like the Soaring > Nats, the Southwest Classic, > etc, try these new ideas and find out what the > contestants really like and what > really works, and then if they still like their new > landing or not landing > schemes, get involved in a rules change. > > Just stop whining and get on with life. > > Regards, Dave Corven, > AMA 878, LSF254 and damn near Level 5. > __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send "subscribe" and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
