subject:"\[RCSE\] Contest Format"


LOL.

Does this mean I will have watch the same dudes getting old and still 
winning?


DP will have to think of new naming schemes, I don't think "Old Gas 
Bag" will sell too well.  Perhaps "Skegless" will.  :-)


At 11:44 AM 1/11/2008, Tom Copp wrote:
Yes, I see the same thing too. The Europeans make F3J and F3B the F1 
of soaring and because they do they bring in the new guys.
You will get your butt kicked when you start out and what do they do 
to help you? Nothingits sink or swim. The best teacher I ever had 
was a good ass kicking!  Getting old? Can't see? Tough, move over 
old man there are 50 new guys waiting to replace you.

Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-11 Thread Joe Rodriguez

I don't care who you are, now that's funny no gray cup in the Europe ,,but 
true 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Tom Copp<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  To: Soaring@airage.com<mailto:Soaring@airage.com> 
  Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:44 AM
  Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

  Yes, I see the same thing too. The Europeans make F3J and F3B the F1 of 
soaring and because they do they bring in the new guys. 

  You will get your butt kicked when you start out and what do they do to help 
you? Nothing.its sink or swim. The best teacher I ever had was a good ass 
kicking!  Getting old? Can't see? Tough, move over old man there are 50 new 
guys waiting to replace you.

  No one is complaining about buying a winch or model and in many cases it's 
more difficult over there to come up with "Toy Money" plus the cost to travel 
to a comp is expensive. Yes sure Europe is small but have you ever drove from 
Spain/France to Germany? Shoot the toll fees will exceed the cost of fuel (at 
8.00+ a gallon!) yet contests are full and the parties are well worth the 
effort. 

  The USA TD contest pilots are dieing. I mean literally dieing (RIP) no new 
blood. The writing has been on the wall for years.. Its time to read the wall.

  Tom 

  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:16 AM
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Soaring@airage.com
  Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

  A note in support of Tom's comments, I noticed that the Munich F3k Contest 
registration opened up last week.  I was considering going over and was trying 
to organize it with some friends. The competition was full in 3 days 110 
confirmed 15 on a back up list. I have seen this over and over in European 
Events. I have also noticed a younger crowd showing up. My Best regards Larry

  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  Wow lots of stuff here.

  In general contests outside the USA are well attended. Contests attendance
  inside the USA is diminishing.  Why?

  Outside the USA they typically fly F3J or a local version of F3J with F3B
  winches that the pilots supply btw. They are strict about being on the line
  in time; they don't "soften" the task for anyone. They play hardball over
  there and their attendance is thriving. 

  <<>>

RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-11 Thread Tom Copp

Yes, I see the same thing too. The Europeans make F3J and F3B the F1 of
soaring and because they do they bring in the new guys. 

You will get your butt kicked when you start out and what do they do to help
you? Nothing.its sink or swim. The best teacher I ever had was a good ass
kicking!  Getting old? Can't see? Tough, move over old man there are 50 new
guys waiting to replace you.

 

No one is complaining about buying a winch or model and in many cases it's
more difficult over there to come up with "Toy Money" plus the cost to
travel to a comp is expensive. Yes sure Europe is small but have you ever
drove from Spain/France to Germany? Shoot the toll fees will exceed the cost
of fuel (at 8.00+ a gallon!) yet contests are full and the parties are well
worth the effort. 

 

The USA TD contest pilots are dieing. I mean literally dieing (RIP) no new
blood. The writing has been on the wall for years.. Its time to read the
wall.

 

Tom 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:16 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Soaring@airage.com
Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

 

A note in support of Tom's comments, I noticed that the Munich F3k Contest
registration opened up last week.  I was considering going over and was
trying to organize it with some friends. The competition was full in 3 days
110 confirmed 15 on a back up list. I have seen this over and over in
European Events. I have also noticed a younger crowd showing up. My Best
regards Larry

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Wow lots of stuff here.

In general contests outside the USA are well attended. Contests attendance
inside the USA is diminishing.  Why?

Outside the USA they typically fly F3J or a local version of F3J with F3B
winches that the pilots supply btw. They are strict about being on the line
in time; they don't "soften" the task for anyone. They play hardball over
there and their attendance is thriving. 

<<>>

RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

Is it the type of Society or contest formats that are changing the
competitive soaring environment? Overall USA Club
membership/participation is down.

From my perspective the Europeans have more vacation time and
spendable income than USA residents have experienced in over 30
years. Remember when the 40 hour work week was standard? And most
had 4 weeks vacation by the time they were 30.

Perhaps more science needs to be taught in school? Perhaps too much
emphasis on sports and not education? Soaring geeks in the USA just
don't rank high on the celebrity list.

I think many of the answers and solutions are rooted deep in the
economic and social threads of our society. The USA is losing it's
position in the world. We have to just follow now.

Steve Meyer

At 11:00 AM 1/11/2008, Tom Copp wrote:

Wow lots of stuff here.

In general contests outside the USA are well attended. Contests attendance
inside the USA is diminishing. Why?

Outside the USA they typically fly F3J or a local version of F3J with F3B
winches that the pilots supply btw. They are strict about being on the line
in time; they don't "soften" the task for anyone. They play hardball over
there and their attendance is thriving.

Inside the USA most of our formats are the same since the late 70's while
our models have evolved over the last 30+ years the contests have not. Our
attendance is shrinking, we give in to a sandbagger, and we don't want to
change anything to keep the pilots we have coming back. We don't push
ourselves to try anything new and learn something. Sure the new guy has lots
to learn starting from zero but after 6 months what is next? Guys soaring is
not difficult.
How many of us are significantly better pilots after the first 2 or 3 years?
What have you learned the last 3 years? We quit flying if the conditions get
a little rough. You can choose your issue all day long as why we get board
or why attendance is shrinking.

BTW, Each and every contest I have been to is a social event! That's the
nature of humans. We tend to have fun when we can. I would say lets play a
little hardball and push our skills a bit and move up a peg. The USA was at
one time a soaring leader we sure can't say that anymore.

Tom Copp
Composite Specialties
www.f3x.com

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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-11 Thread Joe Rodriguez

Visalia use to max out entries in one day, back when. I do not know of any 
other major contests TODAY in the USA that closes pilot entries in 3 days.

You know I have a itch to fly Euro Glide this year..

joe  
  - Original Message - 
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; 
Soaring@airage.com<mailto:Soaring@airage.com> 
  Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:15 AM
  Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

  A note in support of Tom's comments, I noticed that the Munich F3k Contest 
registration opened up last week.  I was considering going over and was trying 
to organize it with some friends. The competition was full in 3 days 110 
confirmed 15 on a back up list. I have seen this over and over in European 
Events. I have also noticed a younger crowd showing up. My Best regards Larry
Wow lots of stuff here.

In general contests outside the USA are well attended. Contests attendance
inside the USA is diminishing.  Why?

Outside the USA they typically fly F3J or a local version of F3J with F3B
winches that the pilots supply btw. They are strict about being on the line
in time; they don't "soften" the task for anyone. They play hardball over
there and their attendance is thriving. 

Inside the USA most of our formats are the same since the late 70's while
our models have evolved over the last 30+ years the contests have not. Our
attendance is shrinking, we give in to a sandbagger, and we don't want to
change anything to keep the pilots we have coming back. We don't push
ourselves to try anything new and learn something. Sure the new guy has lots
to learn starting from zero but after 6 months what is next? Guys soaring is
not difficult.
How many of us are significantly better pilots after the first 2 or 3 years?
What have you learned the last 3 years? We quit flying if the conditions get
a little rough. You can choose your issue all day long as why we get board
or why attendance is shrinking.

BTW, Each and every contest I have been to is a social event! That's the
nature of humans. We tend to have fun when we can. I would say lets play a
little hardball and push our skills a bit and move up a peg. The USA was at
one time a soaring leader we sure can't say that anymore.

Tom Copp
Composite Specialties
www.f3x.com  

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  Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in 
shape<http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489> in 
the new year.

Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-11 Thread LJolly

 
A note in support of Tom's comments, I noticed that the Munich F3k Contest  
registration opened up last week.  I was considering going over and was  trying 
to organize it with some friends. The competition was full in 3 days 110  
confirmed 15 on a back up list. I have seen this over and over in European  
Events. I have also noticed a younger crowd showing up. My Best regards  Larry

Wow lots  of stuff here.

In general contests outside the USA are well attended.  Contests attendance
inside the USA is diminishing.   Why?

Outside the USA they typically fly F3J or a local version of F3J  with F3B
winches that the pilots supply btw. They are strict about being on  the line
in time; they don't "soften" the task for anyone. They play  hardball over
there and their attendance is thriving. 

Inside the  USA most of our formats are the same since the late 70's while
our models  have evolved over the last 30+ years the contests have not. Our
attendance  is shrinking, we give in to a sandbagger, and we don't want to
change  anything to keep the pilots we have coming back. We don't push
ourselves to  try anything new and learn something. Sure the new guy has lots
to learn  starting from zero but after 6 months what is next? Guys soaring is
not  difficult.
How many of us are significantly better pilots after the first 2  or 3 years?
What have you learned the last 3 years? We quit flying if the  conditions get
a little rough. You can choose your issue all day long as  why we get board
or why attendance is shrinking.

BTW, Each and every  contest I have been to is a social event! That's the
nature of humans. We  tend to have fun when we can. I would say lets play a
little hardball and  push our skills a bit and move up a peg. The USA was at
one time a soaring  leader we sure can't say that anymore.


Tom Copp
Composite  Specialties
www.f3x.com  



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RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-11 Thread Craig Allen

Well said Tom !

Tom Copp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Wow lots of stuff here.

In general contests outside the USA are well attended. Contests attendance
inside the USA is diminishing.  Why?

Outside the USA they typically fly F3J or a local version of F3J with F3B
winches that the pilots supply btw. They are strict about being on the line
in time; they don't "soften" the task for anyone. They play hardball over
there and their attendance is thriving. 

Inside the USA most of our formats are the same since the late 70's while
our models have evolved over the last 30+ years the contests have not. Our
attendance is shrinking, we give in to a sandbagger, and we don't want to
change anything to keep the pilots we have coming back. We don't push
ourselves to try anything new and learn something. Sure the new guy has lots
to learn starting from zero but after 6 months what is next? Guys soaring is
not difficult.
How many of us are significantly better pilots after the first 2 or 3 years?
What have you learned the last 3 years? We quit flying if the conditions get
a little rough. You can choose your issue all day long as why we get board
or why attendance is shrinking.

BTW, Each and every contest I have been to is a social event! That's the
nature of humans. We tend to have fun when we can. I would say lets play a
little hardball and push our skills a bit and move up a peg. The USA was at
one time a soaring leader we sure can't say that anymore.


Tom Copp
Composite Specialties
www.f3x.com  



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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

Will it be, "I beat Gordy" buttons for everyone!?

Wow, I feel better already.  :-)

At 10:53 AM 1/11/2008, Jack Strother wrote:

I think we should try this at the Next SOAR Contest.
Heck Buttons for everybody, we all show up and win,
then off for Margs !!!

Hey no equipment issues either

--
Jack Strother
Granger, IN

LSF 2948
LSF Level V  #117
LSF Official 1996 - 2004
CSS Gold

 -- Original message --
From: S Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Since it seems we need to make it interesting for the "next
> generation" to participate in our hobby, perhaps we should just hand
> out participation ribbons to everyone?  Or perhaps the Top 3rd get a
> Blue Ribbon, Middle 3rd get Red Ribbons, and the last 3rd or
> thermalling challenged get White Ribbons.   LOL
>
> Everybody wins and nobody should be offended.
>
> Jeeez, what's this world coming to.
>
>
> Steve
>

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RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-11 Thread Tom Copp

Wow lots of stuff here.

In general contests outside the USA are well attended. Contests attendance
inside the USA is diminishing.  Why?

Outside the USA they typically fly F3J or a local version of F3J with F3B
winches that the pilots supply btw. They are strict about being on the line
in time; they don't "soften" the task for anyone. They play hardball over
there and their attendance is thriving. 

Inside the USA most of our formats are the same since the late 70's while
our models have evolved over the last 30+ years the contests have not. Our
attendance is shrinking, we give in to a sandbagger, and we don't want to
change anything to keep the pilots we have coming back. We don't push
ourselves to try anything new and learn something. Sure the new guy has lots
to learn starting from zero but after 6 months what is next? Guys soaring is
not difficult.
How many of us are significantly better pilots after the first 2 or 3 years?
What have you learned the last 3 years? We quit flying if the conditions get
a little rough. You can choose your issue all day long as why we get board
or why attendance is shrinking.

BTW, Each and every contest I have been to is a social event! That's the
nature of humans. We tend to have fun when we can. I would say lets play a
little hardball and push our skills a bit and move up a peg. The USA was at
one time a soaring leader we sure can't say that anymore.


Tom Copp
Composite Specialties
www.f3x.com  



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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-11 Thread Jack Strother

I think we should try this at the Next SOAR Contest.
Heck Buttons for everybody, we all show up and win, 
then off for Margs !!!

Hey no equipment issues either


--
Jack Strother   
Granger, IN 

LSF 2948
LSF Level V  #117
LSF Official 1996 - 2004
CSS Gold



 -- Original message --
From: S Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Since it seems we need to make it interesting for the "next 
> generation" to participate in our hobby, perhaps we should just hand 
> out participation ribbons to everyone?  Or perhaps the Top 3rd get a 
> Blue Ribbon, Middle 3rd get Red Ribbons, and the last 3rd or 
> thermalling challenged get White Ribbons.   LOL
> 
> Everybody wins and nobody should be offended.
> 
> Jeeez, what's this world coming to.
> 
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.  Send "subscribe" and 
> "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Please note that 
> subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME 
> turned off.  Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are 
> generally NOT in text format

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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-11 Thread Pat McCleave

Guys,

Did I miss something in Tim's original post.  I do not recall anyware in there 
it mentioned anything about making it where everybody gets to win.  I believe 
somewhere along the way all you guys have go in your heads that Tim's intent 
was to make everybody a winner.

As much as this group is afraid of trying something that represents a change in 
the status quo, I have no idea how the OVSS ever got MOM and SMOM off the 
ground.

My guess is if there were 10 contest held around the country all using Tim's 
format, that when the smoke cleared at the end of the day, the guys in the area 
that normally win the wood will still be the guys that win the wood.

I am much against the new era of everybody wins and lets not keep score or 
records in kids sports as the next guy.  I feel we are raising a whole 
generation of people who feel they only need to show up to be rewarded.  I see 
it in my work force right now with some of the younger employees.  The deal is 
though, Tim's format DOES NOT promote this.  Maybe some of you need to go back 
and re-read the original email.

Just my 2 cents worth.

See Ya,

Pat McCleave
Wichita, KS
 S Meyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> Since it seems we need to make it interesting for the "next 
> generation" to participate in our hobby, perhaps we should just hand 
> out participation ribbons to everyone?  Or perhaps the Top 3rd get a 
> Blue Ribbon, Middle 3rd get Red Ribbons, and the last 3rd or 
> thermalling challenged get White Ribbons.   LOL
> 
> Everybody wins and nobody should be offended.
> 
> Jeeez, what's this world coming to.
> 
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.  Send "subscribe" and 
> "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Please note that subscribe and 
> unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.  
> Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in 
> text format

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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

Since it seems we need to make it interesting for the "next 
generation" to participate in our hobby, perhaps we should just hand 
out participation ribbons to everyone?  Or perhaps the Top 3rd get a 
Blue Ribbon, Middle 3rd get Red Ribbons, and the last 3rd or 
thermalling challenged get White Ribbons.   LOL


Everybody wins and nobody should be offended.

Jeeez, what's this world coming to.


Steve


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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-10 Thread Kevin O'Dell


Hi gang, I just gotta chime in here.

I know Tim and have flown with him and the rest of the SLNT crew as  
well as Tulsoar back in the day..I appreciate what Tim has thrown  
out here for us to chew on..no one has said that anyone should  
use this format in ALL contests, but it might be interesting to try  
it as Dave Register says...it's occasionally not a bad idea to  
level the field a little, especially if there are newcomers in a club  
that might benefit from a contest where they just might not get  
hammered to last place because they couldn't make the precision  
times, or they can't afford more than an OLY for the time  
being.they may be practicing, but they may also have a job and a  
family that they choose to spend time with that limits that practice  
time..but they still enjoy this wonderful hobby.so once in  
awhile run a contest where their choices of practice level  or  
aircraft doesn't necessarily doom them to the bottom of the  
pile...no one enjoys coming in last or in the back of the pack  
every time.but some folks may not have access to the hardware,  
time and even patience to get to the level of the really good  
fliers.and this scoring system looks like it has that  
potentialI'm not saying let them win for the sake of winning,  
but you would be suprised just how much better a person might feel if  
he places in the middle of the pack instead of the bottom.it  
might even entice him to practice more...after that, then hammer  
them back into oblivion..


flame on!!

Later..

( Tim, I may see you guys Sunday)

Kevin O'Dell

On Jan 10, 2008, at 10:31 AM, Joe Rodriguez wrote:


Tim,

I see and understand where you are going, and respectfully  
disagree. I fly model sailplanes to compete and so a contest to me  
is a test of skills among peers.


Like Golfing I work at every aspect of flying to improve my game in  
order to get that edge on the less skilled, the less prepared and  
the less knowledgeable.   So for me when it all comes together for  
a win or high place, the taste of victory is sweet although brief  
is very addictive. This is what keeps me going I can fun fly  
anytime!! I look forward to a true contest of skills.


To level the playing field and to reward players for not being  
prepared, less skilled or less practiced will give them a false  
sense of success. They will wonder why they got there A%$ handed to  
them when they attend a real contest, and who fault is that?


smokinjoe

Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-10 Thread Jeff Steifel





Ok, so what if no one makes the time.
Does everyone get a zero.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Nope, I MEAN no flight points because you never made the 10 minutes to
be able to qualify for any sort of landing.  Well..I guess it eliminated
landing points too.

Brutal!

  
  
 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
From: Jeff Steifel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, January 10, 2008 2:23 pm
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: "RCSE (E-mail)" 

I think you meant zero the landing points, not the flight points.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


  Why not just have everyone fly for 10 minutes to qualify for a landing
attempt with 1 meter concentric divisions like f3J.  After all, isn't
that what it's about?  Why not give bonus points for landing if they are
within 2 seconds over the time.  If they are short of 10 minutes then
zero flight points.

Isn't that what all the top experts do in each contest.

If you can't make the time, what makes you think you are good enough to
get landing points either?

BTW, DLG contests do MOM all the time.

The thought pattern is TOTALLY different in DLG contests.  There is a
set task, either you make it or you don't. The only thing I constantly
hear is how many points did you DROP, not how many points did you
achieve.

This is not basketball, it is more like Golf.  The course is rated and
you know the task (par value) and you are being measured on what you can
or cannot achieve.

Chris

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--
Jeff Steifel

  
  
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-- 
Jeff Steifel



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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-10 Thread Danny C Williams

Jeff 

It is if you only go over the working time you get zero landing points
and a 30 point penalty in F3J.


Dr. Danny Williams D.C.
"Bad Roads bring good people and good roads bring bad people"
Colorado Springs, Colorado


From: Jeff Steifel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: "RCSE (E-mail)" 
Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
 
I think you meant zero the landing points, not the flight points.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Why not just have everyone fly for 10 minutes to qualify for a landing
> attempt with 1 meter concentric divisions like f3J.  After all, isn't
> that what it's about?  Why not give bonus points for landing if they
are
> within 2 seconds over the time.  If they are short of 10 minutes then
> zero flight points.

[RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-10 Thread Hank Schorz

This topic always brings a chuckle to me.

Larry's idea is the only one (other than rolling dice or cutting cards) that 
gives everyone an even chance to win with no regard for their skills or 
equipment. If that's what you're looking for, that's the way to go. But who's 
looking for that?

I've been to contests for over 20 years, and the best pilots, with the best 
skills and equipment usually win, as they should. What would be the point of 
anything else? Does winning a contest by luck make anyone feel any better? I 
doubt it. The real benefit of contest flying (to me) is the comradery, the 
sport, the challenge, and the competition (the thrill of victory and the agony 
of defeat). I would never throw that away for a win of a "luck" driven contest. 
The pilots that are better than I (and there are many), challenge me and push 
me to fly better. I wouldn't have it any other way!

Hank

**
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[RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-10 Thread Hank Schorz

This topic always brings a chuckle to me.

 

Larry's idea is the only one (other than rolling dice or cutting cards)
that gives everyone an even chance to win with no regard for their
skills or equipment. If that's what you're looking for, that's the way
to go. But who's looking for that?

 

I've been to contests for over 20 years, and the best pilots, with the
best skills and equipment usually win, as they should. What would be the
point of anything else? Does winning a contest by luck make anyone feel
any better? I doubt it. The real benefit of contest flying (to me) is
the comradery, the sport, the challenge, and the competition (the thrill
of victory and the agony of defeat). I would never throw that away for a
win of a "luck" driven contest. The pilots that are better than I (and
there are many), challenge me and push me to fly better. I wouldn't have
it any other way!





Hank

 

 

**

Henry P. Schorz

Executive Vice President - Chief Scientist

 

ACT Litigation Services

 

27200 Tourney Road  Suite 450

Valencia, Ca  91355

PH:  (661) 284-6401 x232

FX: (661) 284-7654

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RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-10 Thread chris

Nope, I MEAN no flight points because you never made the 10 minutes to
be able to qualify for any sort of landing.  Well..I guess it eliminated
landing points too.

Brutal!

>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
> From: Jeff Steifel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, January 10, 2008 2:23 pm
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: "RCSE (E-mail)" 
>
> I think you meant zero the landing points, not the flight points.
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Why not just have everyone fly for 10 minutes to qualify for a landing
> > attempt with 1 meter concentric divisions like f3J.  After all, isn't
> > that what it's about?  Why not give bonus points for landing if they are
> > within 2 seconds over the time.  If they are short of 10 minutes then
> > zero flight points.
> >
> > Isn't that what all the top experts do in each contest.
> >
> > If you can't make the time, what makes you think you are good enough to
> > get landing points either?
> >
> > BTW, DLG contests do MOM all the time.
> >
> > The thought pattern is TOTALLY different in DLG contests.  There is a
> > set task, either you make it or you don't. The only thing I constantly
> > hear is how many points did you DROP, not how many points did you
> > achieve.
> >
> > This is not basketball, it is more like Golf.  The course is rated and
> > you know the task (par value) and you are being measured on what you can
> > or cannot achieve.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.  Send "subscribe" and 
> > "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Please note that subscribe and 
> > unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. 
> >  Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT 
> > in text format
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Jeff Steifel

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RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-10 Thread chris

This is Match play, just like they do in FF.  You either max the time,
or you are out!

It does not matter what time you set, just that it has to be maxed.  If
you want to add difficulty, then just increase the flight time 1 or 2
minutes per round.

We did a type of this contest in DLG at Visalia in 2006.  I was CD.  I
had an airhorn.  Everyone launched, and when 10 seconds had passed, the
horn blew, and every pilot had to do a loop, then the first pilots down
were eliminated.  Next I made them do a loop at 10 second, then another
at 30 seconds.  It went on.  Would you believe it that we got up to 4
loops then wait 20 seconds and then 4 more loops.  Scoring was obvious,
you made it or you didn't.  The last round was tough as pilots pulled
out with about 4 inches to spare.



>  Original Message 
> Subject: [RCSE] Contest Format
> From: tony estep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, January 10, 2008 2:16 pm
> To: soaring@airage.com
>
> Original message:
> ...short of 10 minutes then zero flight points. Isn't that what all the top 
> experts do in each contest.
>
> If you can't make the time, what makes you think you are good enough to get 
> landing points either?
> ===
> Which suggests a slight variation on the 10-9-8 etc. scheme: Only the maxers 
> or round-winners get to go on to the next round -- everybody else is 
> eliminated. That would really move things along.

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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format: Some personal experience

2008-01-10 Thread jimbacus

It's only a faster pace (getting a chance to fly again, that is) for those
pilots who don't/can't max. the task times, correct?  If everyone is
maxing the task times than it is no faster than the traditional MoM format
if I am understanding these rules correctly.


> With bigger planes and their higher launch altitudes, the whole process
> will
> be more sedate, but it sounds to me like it would be fun in its own way
> because of the faster pace than usual in that category.


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[RCSE] Contest Format: Some personal experience

2008-01-10 Thread ALNephew

 
Kudos to Tim Bennett for coming up with a new variation on his contest  
format similar to one of his formats for HLG-size planes.
 
I agree with Dave Register's comments (see below). I flew in one  of Tim's 
Class-A Scramble events a couple of winters ago in Dallas (winter in  Duluth, 
NICE in Dallas) and enjoyed it immensely. I later got the written  contest 
rules 
and materials specifications from Tim, put together  four Up-Starts, and we 
started these contests this past year in  Minnesota, to the great enjoyment of 
the participants. Tim's format has all the  good qualities mentioned by Tim 
and Dave. This winter at least a dozen of the MN  soaring club members are 
building new 1.5 meter-or-less planes to be able to fly  in the upcoming 
"smaller 
plane" events, after hearing about the very  positive response to the contests 
we had this past year.
 
I'd suggest not only trying Tim's new format for the larger planes, but  also 
his similar, tried and true, format for the smaller ones. This may get  to be 
as popular in Minnesota as it has been in Dallas. The pace is fast, there  is 
a lot of laughter and camaraderie, exciting moments as two or more fliers  
battle it out in a weak thermal 20 feet off the ground then one plane lands  a 
quarter of a second later than another, lots of appreciative banter, cheering.  
. . everyone likes it a lot and those who don't have the right planes for  it 
decide on the spot to get one.
 
It's about fun, and Tim's format is hard to beat for that.
 
With bigger planes and their higher launch altitudes, the whole process  will 
be more sedate, but it sounds to me like it would be fun in its own way  
because of the faster pace than usual in that category. 
 
Each kind of contest is fun and a challenge; Tim's suggestion is worth a  
try. A lot of clubs would like it a lot, I'll bet.
 
Looks like Gordy thinks so, too (see below). I agree with Gordy, too.
 
Al
 
>Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 07:34:43 -0600
From: David Register <[EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) >
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:Soaring@airage.com) 
Subject: Re: Contest  Format
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) >
 
Guys,
I've flown a variant of Tim's proposal at SLNT on quite a few  occasions 
in their Class-A Scramble event. It's a great task, gets the load  off 
the CD and keeps pilots involved all the way through the event.  
Extending it to TD classes is a really interesting approach and  
addresses a lot of issues that can come up at club contests. I suspect  
the format works best for club events in the 8 to 20 range or  thereabouts.
Why don't some of the clubs give it a try for their monthly  events and 
report back to RCSE or RCGroups? The rules may merit some  tweaking but 
the best way to figure that is to give it a shot.
The Class  A format draws more entries each month at Dallas than just 
about anything  else - and that's a pretty competitive group of guys. One 
of the things it  DEFINITELY accomplishes is draw more club members into 
club activities. If  you're in it for the group and not just for 
yourself, that's not a bad  outcome.
Way to go Tim!
- Dave R



>Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 13:12:06 EST
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To:  Soaring@airage.com
Subject: "The Problem of Tim's Contest Format"

Duh,  

I can't believe I have to post this :-)

The biggest problem with  Tim's Contest format is us all missing flying   it.

Gordy




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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-10 Thread Jeff Steifel

I hope you meant zero the landing points, not flight points.

Here on the east coast, and certainly at the NATs, there have been days
where even the top guys will miss a flight. Zeroing a flight is
ridiculous if you don't make the 10, because even those guys would miss.

I assume you are talking west coast give me a thermal and I can't come
down air.

Not the variable stuff that the midwest and east coast can get.
Start a day off with 5mph and get up to winds that knock over the
Shitter.. Not everyone will make their time, including the leaders.They
will/may drop them. Zeroing a flight... what if everyone zeros a flight?

Zero the landing? Still not convinced...
Why not just adopt the FAI standard? Why do we have to do it different
then the rest of the world.
Use the f3j format with winches,and the U.S. might wind up winning the
worlds.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Why not just have everyone fly for 10 minutes to qualify for a landing
attempt with 1 meter concentric divisions like f3J. After all, isn't
that what it's about? Why not give bonus points for landing if they are
within 2 seconds over the time. If they are short of 10 minutes then
zero flight points.

Isn't that what all the top experts do in each contest.

If you can't make the time, what makes you think you are good enough to
get landing points either?

BTW, DLG contests do MOM all the time.

The thought pattern is TOTALLY different in DLG contests. There is a
set task, either you make it or you don't. The only thing I constantly
hear is how many points did you DROP, not how many points did you
achieve.

This is not basketball, it is more like Golf. The course is rated and
you know the task (par value) and you are being measured on what you can
or cannot achieve.

Chris

--
Jeff Steifel

Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-10 Thread Jeff Steifel

I think you meant zero the landing points, not the flight points.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Isn't that what all the top experts do in each contest.

If you can't make the time, what makes you think you are good enough to
get landing points either?

BTW, DLG contests do MOM all the time.

This is not basketball, it is more like Golf. The course is rated and
you know the task (par value) and you are being measured on what you can
or cannot achieve.

Chris

--
Jeff Steifel

[RCSE] Contest Format

Original message:
...short of 10 minutes then zero flight points. Isn't that what all the top 
experts do in each contest. 

If you can't make the time, what makes you think you are good enough to get 
landing points either?
===
Which suggests a slight variation on the 10-9-8 etc. scheme: Only the maxers or 
round-winners get to go on to the next round -- everybody else is eliminated. 
That would really move things along.

RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-10 Thread Jim Monaco

Actually you can do a lot better than par in golf.  A better example is
skeet or trap shooting.  The task is 100 targets and you can't get more than
100.  As Chris says - ya only got to count the ones you missed - and at the
upper levels if that is 1 you can plan for your ride home...  Ask me how I
know... :)
Jim

Jim Monaco
Rocky Mountain Soaring Association
Denver, CO
http://www.rmsadenver.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:25 PM
To: RCSE (E-mail)
Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format



Why not just have everyone fly for 10 minutes to qualify for a landing
attempt with 1 meter concentric divisions like f3J.  After all, isn't
that what it's about?  Why not give bonus points for landing if they are
within 2 seconds over the time.  If they are short of 10 minutes then
zero flight points.

Isn't that what all the top experts do in each contest.

If you can't make the time, what makes you think you are good enough to
get landing points either?

BTW, DLG contests do MOM all the time.

The thought pattern is TOTALLY different in DLG contests.  There is a
set task, either you make it or you don't. The only thing I constantly
hear is how many points did you DROP, not how many points did you
achieve.

This is not basketball, it is more like Golf.  The course is rated and
you know the task (par value) and you are being measured on what you can
or cannot achieve.

Chris

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RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-10 Thread chris



Why not just have everyone fly for 10 minutes to qualify for a landing
attempt with 1 meter concentric divisions like f3J.  After all, isn't
that what it's about?  Why not give bonus points for landing if they are
within 2 seconds over the time.  If they are short of 10 minutes then
zero flight points.

Isn't that what all the top experts do in each contest.

If you can't make the time, what makes you think you are good enough to
get landing points either?

BTW, DLG contests do MOM all the time.

The thought pattern is TOTALLY different in DLG contests.  There is a
set task, either you make it or you don't. The only thing I constantly
hear is how many points did you DROP, not how many points did you
achieve.

This is not basketball, it is more like Golf.  The course is rated and
you know the task (par value) and you are being measured on what you can
or cannot achieve.

Chris

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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-10 Thread LJolly

Rick, Good Points... What kind of Cookies are We talking here. Larry  Jolly

Here's a format that's fair to everyone and no hurt feelings at the  
end of the contest.

We'll let everyone launch whenever they want  and fly for whatever 
they can accomplish.  When they land we'll rub  their heads and tell 
them what a great job they did and give them a max  score.  If they 
break the line or pop off we'll ask them if that's  their flight or if 
they want a 'do over'.  Either way they are  rewarded with a max score 
for being so aggressive on the launch. If they  land off the field 
we'll give them the max landing score for trying so  hard.  On the 
field landing and they get a max score for their great  skill.

Should anyone crash they would immediately be awarded a max  score for 
heroism and almost saving their plane and a new-in-box  replacement 
for their broken airplane. After the predetermined number of  rounds 
selected to make sure that no one gets too tired during the day  we'll 
give everyone a small trophy and take a group picture to  
celebrate.  Then everyone gets a nice box of juice and candy or  
cookie snack before they head home.   All butterflies and warm  milk 
thoughts will fill their heads as the drive that long highway  home.

Anything less than this and the contest is obviously unfair, poor  
sportsmanship or cheating.  The argument is  over.

Cheers
Rick

PS No ego or emotion was created or  destroyed in this post.

At 10:52 PM 1/9/2008, Tim  Bennett wrote:

>Jim Bacus wrote:
> >
> >  "Shafting" the other fellow competitors by completing the task
> >  time?  "Unethical?"  ;-)
> >
> > I see it as  maximizing my available flying time during a contest
> > event, and  playing by the rules of the contest attempting to
> > maximize my  score.
>
>
>Jim makes a valid point while at the same time  highlighting one of the
>weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently  practiced. The format creates a
>structure that encourages or even  requires what would seem to some as
>unsportsmanlike behavior which  belittles and demeans the unsuccessful
>competitor. The rules encourage  exploiting any opportunity to "bury" someone
>who has a bad flight by  putting on a show of being the only one flying for
>as long as possible  while everyone stands and watches. This kind of
>structure is  unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode
>of good  luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior  performance
>round after round. There can be no greater turn off in  competition than
>being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one  guy, it is at the
>expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules  makes the competition a
>turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct  this. This is an issue of
>the design of the contest format which my  earlier idea seeks to address.
>
>By assigning scores that are  limited on the low side, a competitor is not
>able to lose or win the  whole contest in one round and there is no need nor
>opportunity to bury  or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to
>structure a contest  if you want to insure all competitors have a good time
>and encourage  participation while not artificially limiting the performance
>of any  competitor.
>
>I guess a key objective I left out  was:
>
>"Respect for the dignity of all  participants."
>
>I also think "...maximizing available flying  time during a contest..." is
>better done by increasing the pace of the  event so more rounds can be flown.
>
>Tim Bennett
>LSF  IV
>
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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-10 Thread David Klein

Tim, well done.  I really like the idea and the execution.  I might try this
or a variant at one of our local contests.

Anyone that knows me knows that I am a competitor.  I like the challenge.  I
love MoM flight scoring, and can't get enough of FAI style flying.  What I
really like about this event, is its simplicity in scoring.  I am surprised
at everyone who thinks this format is not competitive.  Just come and fly
with us at TPG, and try to keep Mike Smith, Steve Condon, or Aurthor Mkevich
(god a killed the sp, but I can pronounce it)from beating you.

If you think about how this thing is scored, you will need all 10s to win.
So getting buried or not doesn't really matter.  Also, landing points still
matter.  The top guys always get their times, so to win you gotta hit the
tape.  Same thing here.

This kind of format should make for a really fun contest.  It promotes the
old, I bet you a dollar I win stuff.  So Joe R, bring your dollars dude, he
who has the least at the end of the contest will get a photo opportunity on
the short bus. :)  (my wife is special ed teacher, she is secretly getting
mad right now).  How is that for competative spirit.

It should also get more people warmed up to the idea of MoM flying.  Take
out the luck and bring the skill.

So Tim, thanks for trying it out and taking the time to tell us all about
it.

David Klein,
TPGulls

BTW, I have flown enough to know that every club in the US has a top
competitor or two, so there is no such thing as an easy contest.  The only
difference here is that the middle of the pack guys will score 900-950
points, instead of 800-900.

[RCSE] Contest Format

Original message:
...To level the playing field and to reward players for not being prepared, 
less skilled or less practiced...
=
At first glance it appears to do that. But if you think about how this would 
have worked at contests you have attended, you might conclude that the overall 
effect is to introduce arbitrariness and quirky results into the scoring, with 
no corresponding benefit. It's purely a  landing contest for the maxers;  a guy 
who gets a near-max will have the door slammed on him with no chance to 
recover; and the guys who would have been at the bottom with conventional 
scoring will still be at the bottom.

[RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-10 Thread john cyr


Thank Heavens for the "DELETE" key.
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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-10 Thread Joe Rodriguez

Tim,

I see and understand where you are going, and respectfully disagree. I fly 
model sailplanes to compete and so a contest to me is a test of skills among 
peers. 

Like Golfing I work at every aspect of flying to improve my game in order to 
get that edge on the less skilled, the less prepared and the less 
knowledgeable.   So for me when it all comes together for a win or high place, 
the taste of victory is sweet although brief is very addictive. This is what 
keeps me going I can fun fly anytime!! I look forward to a true contest of 
skills.

To level the playing field and to reward players for not being prepared, less 
skilled or less practiced will give them a false sense of success. They will 
wonder why they got there A%$ handed to them when they attend a real contest, 
and who fault is that?

smokinjoe

Re: [RCSE] Contest format

2008-01-10 Thread ivanbrian

One time at an OVSS contest in Cincy, Rich Burnoski took me from 3rd to 22nd 
all in one flight. The last round.  I still love MOM. (smile) 
   But I never forget, and got even at the Gateway open about 3 yrs ago in the 
last contest I think I ever flew in. YUP. I still love MOM. Brian
  - Original Message - 
  From: Steve Schneider 
  To: RCSE 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 10:58 PM
  Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest format

  Maybe we should just do politically correct soaring contests and not keep 
score, like many kids sports programs these days.  We wouldn't want to hurt any 
ones feelings, now would we?

  On Jan 9, 2008 10:53 PM, tony estep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Original message:
Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do not do 
this at TNT...
===
Marc is right on. At a "real" contest, this sort of thing is fundamentally  
unfair. If everybody launches into the same air and one guy finds the air and 
gets max, while 6 out of 7 guys mess up and land early, they have to earn low 
scores, in fairness to everybody in the contest. The air was there and they 
blew their shot. Setting up some artificial scheme to pardon their failure is 
better policy for club contests than for the real thing -- sort of like 
allowing free popoffs. 

  -- 
  Steve Schneider
  Buffalo Grove, IL
  SOAR Club

--

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10:16 AM

[RCSE] Contest format

- Original Message 
...Everybody who caught the air 
just flies past the target time and lands within the thirty seconds to collect 
their ten points
==
Still,
you can have the odd situation where four guys make 10+, and one makes
9:59; if I understand it correctly, he gets a 6, the equivalent of 600
points, for a flight that should have been worth 999. The best way to
avoid all these pathological outcomes is to normalize the scores. If
you want to eliminate the precision, then just call every time over 10
minutes 10:00.

RE: [RCSE] Contest format

2008-01-10 Thread Tim Bennett

Now who is arguing for political correctness? Thanks for your interest,
anyway.

Remember that the format is not precision. Everybody who caught the air just
flies past the target time and lands within the thirty seconds to collect
their ten points. If somebody landed early while somebody else was still
flying, He lost the round. That should have a price, as you correctly
pointed out, to be fair to everybody else.

The situation where everybody hits sink and has to scratch for that last
minute before the max is one of the more exciting elements of the format and
has validity as a competitive format since it is not what happens in good
air that separates the good pilots from the rest, it is who does the best
job with the air they have.

Think about it.

Tim
  -Original Message-
  From: tony estep [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 8:14 AM
  To: Soaring
  Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest format


  - Original Message 

  From: Tim Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

  ...in a "real" contest, 9 points or less out of ten, which corresponds to
900  or less out of 1000, is a low score.
  
  So what do you do when you have a typical OVSS field where 4 out of the 7
guys come within a couple of seconds of the max? One has 10:00, one has
10:01, one has 9:58, one has 9:57. You give them 10, 9, 8, 7 respectively?
The same as if they scored 10, 9, 8, and 7 minutes? I don't think so.

Re: [RCSE] Contest format

- Original Message 
From: Tim Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
...in a "real" 
contest, 9 points or less out of ten, which corresponds to 900  or less out 
of 1000, is a low score. 

So what do you do when you have a typical OVSS field where 4 out of the 7 guys 
come within a couple of seconds of the max? One has 10:00, one has 10:01, one 
has 9:58, one has 9:57. You give them 10, 9, 8, 7 respectively? The same as if 
they scored 10, 9, 8, and 7 minutes? I don't think so.

RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-10 Thread Rick Eckel

Here's a format that's fair to everyone and no hurt feelings at the
end of the contest.

We'll let everyone launch whenever they want and fly for whatever
they can accomplish. When they land we'll rub their heads and tell
them what a great job they did and give them a max score. If they
break the line or pop off we'll ask them if that's their flight or if
they want a 'do over'. Either way they are rewarded with a max score
for being so aggressive on the launch. If they land off the field
we'll give them the max landing score for trying so hard. On the
field landing and they get a max score for their great skill.

Should anyone crash they would immediately be awarded a max score for
heroism and almost saving their plane and a new-in-box replacement
for their broken airplane. After the predetermined number of rounds
selected to make sure that no one gets too tired during the day we'll
give everyone a small trophy and take a group picture to
celebrate. Then everyone gets a nice box of juice and candy or
cookie snack before they head home. All butterflies and warm milk
thoughts will fill their heads as the drive that long highway home.

Anything less than this and the contest is obviously unfair, poor
sportsmanship or cheating. The argument is over.

Cheers
Rick

PS No ego or emotion was created or destroyed in this post.

At 10:52 PM 1/9/2008, Tim Bennett wrote:

Jim Bacus wrote:
>
> "Shafting" the other fellow competitors by completing the task
> time? "Unethical?" ;-)
>
> I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest
> event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to
> maximize my score.

Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the
weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a
structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as
unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful
competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to "bury" someone
who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for
as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of
structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode
of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance
round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than
being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the
expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a
turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of
the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address.

By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not
able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor
opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to
structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time
and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance
of any competitor.

I guess a key objective I left out was:

"Respect for the dignity of all participants."

I also think "...maximizing available flying time during a contest..." is
better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown.

Tim Bennett
LSF IV

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RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

Marc,
Thanks for the comments. In answer to your questions, we have only tried this 
once, but we have been doing something similar for years for class A sailplanes 
using upstarts with scoring on a four point scale. We use head-to-head results 
rather than landings for tie breaking and rarely have to go beyond that. 

In really good weather, this contest format becomes a landing contest at the 
top just like any TD contest. The difference is that there is more emphasis on 
consistent flying than on times less than max. The course granularity of the 
scoring separates the competitors pretty quickly so you end up with a group 
with all tens and the rest pretty spread out. The landings decide the issue for 
those with the tens and any other ties as well. The one time we did it one guy 
had all tens and there were only two other ties. We didn't get in very many 
rounds, though.

> -Original Message-
> From: Marc Gellart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 3:11 PM
> To: Tim Bennett
> Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
> 
> 
> Tim,
> Good idea, and you had the perfect conditions for this format of 
> MOM, but would this have worked so well if the conditions were 
> near perfect?
> 
> I realize that you can break ties and such, but in the summer up 
> here, even doing seeded MOM in our normal fashion, after six to 
> eight rounds we will have the top five in a twenty point spread 
> sometimes.  I would think that this would get so tight that you 
> would have a knot at the top so close that it might not break.  
> Have you done it when it was nmicer or was this your first time out?
> 
> Marc
> 

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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-09 Thread Mark Triebes


I'd pay to see Daryl try and run a mile!!

Sorry, D ... couldn't resist.

Mark

Sent via IPhone


On Jan 9, 2008, at 9:47 PM, "Tim Bennett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I have a friend who once bet a guy he could run a mile in four  
minutes.
Thinking himself no fool, the guy took the bet and made a date to  
meet at

the high school track the next morning. Once on the track the guy said
"Ready, Go." and started the watch. My friend stood there looking at  
him.
The guy said, "What are you doing?" My friend said, "Let me know  
when it's
four minutes and I will run the mile as I said." The guy laughed,  
"OK you
got me, I'll pay you, but at four minutes you better run the whole  
mile." My

friend almost died. He hadn't run that far in years.

It is all in the format of the contest.

Tim


-Original Message-
From: Daryl Perkins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 11:27 PM
To: soaring@airage.com
Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format


No need to even fly at the contest. Let's play paper/ scissors/ rock,
determine a winner, and let the drinking begin. Or no matter what
the task target time is, we'll just all agree to fly 3's. Heck, even
Gordy can make 3... off of a pop off.

Just jumping in and pokin some fun.

Screw that, get me a shovel... I love burying you guys... ;-)



Darylperkins.com LLC.
1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B
Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403

www.darylperkins.com


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RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

I have a friend who once bet a guy he could run a mile in four minutes.
Thinking himself no fool, the guy took the bet and made a date to meet at
the high school track the next morning. Once on the track the guy said
"Ready, Go." and started the watch. My friend stood there looking at him.
The guy said, "What are you doing?" My friend said, "Let me know when it's
four minutes and I will run the mile as I said." The guy laughed, "OK you
got me, I'll pay you, but at four minutes you better run the whole mile." My
friend almost died. He hadn't run that far in years.

It is all in the format of the contest.

Tim

> -Original Message-
> From: Daryl Perkins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 11:27 PM
> To: soaring@airage.com
> Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
>
>
> No need to even fly at the contest. Let's play paper/ scissors/ rock,
> determine a winner, and let the drinking begin. Or no matter what
> the task target time is, we'll just all agree to fly 3's. Heck, even
> Gordy can make 3... off of a pop off.
>
> Just jumping in and pokin some fun.
>
> Screw that, get me a shovel... I love burying you guys... ;-)
>
>
>
> Darylperkins.com LLC.
> 1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B
> Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403
>
> www.darylperkins.com

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RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-09 Thread Daryl Perkins

No need to even fly at the contest. Let's play paper/ scissors/ rock,
determine a winner, and let the drinking begin. Or no matter what
the task target time is, we'll just all agree to fly 3's. Heck, even
Gordy can make 3... off of a pop off. 

Just jumping in and pokin some fun. 

Screw that, get me a shovel... I love burying you guys... ;-)

Darylperkins.com LLC.
1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B
Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403

www.darylperkins.com

>  Original Message ----
> Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
> From: Craig Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, January 09, 2008 10:18 pm
> To: Joe Rodriguez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "soaring@airage.com"
> 
> Joe, 
> What a great idea :-) That's right up their with my " My child was prisoner 
> of the month" Bumper Sticker...
> Craig
> Joe Rodriguez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Why don't we just award 
> everybody a first place sticker and a cool  ride in the special bus just for 
> entering the joy luck club contest.
>   
>  sj
> -

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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-09 Thread Craig Allen

Joe, 

What a great idea :-) That's right up their with my " My child was prisoner of 
the month" Bumper Sticker...

Craig

Joe Rodriguez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Why dont we just award 
everybody a first place sticker and a cool  ride in the special bus just for 
entering the joy luck club contest.
  
 sj
-

Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-09 Thread Jon Stone


Tim,

Thanks for bringing some new ideas & concepts to our beloved sport.  I 
don't agree with everything you said, but you presented your case well.


Open dialog without egos and emotion based responses will do us all well.

Jon Stone

PS.  Yeah, I know "egos and emotion based responses" are par for the 
course on RCSE.  :)


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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-09 Thread Joe Rodriguez

Why don't we just award everybody a first place sticker and a cool ride in the 
special bus just for entering the joy luck club contest.

sj
  - Original Message - 
  From: Tim Bennett<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  To: soaring@airage.com<mailto:soaring@airage.com> 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:52 PM
  Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

  Jim Bacus wrote:
  >
  > "Shafting" the other fellow competitors by completing the task
  > time?  "Unethical?"  ;-)
  >
  > I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest
  > event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to
  > maximize my score.

  Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the
  weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a
  structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as
  unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful
  competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to "bury" someone
  who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for
  as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of
  structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode
  of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance
  round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than
  being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the
  expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a
  turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of
  the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address.

  By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not
  able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor
  opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to
  structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time
  and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance
  of any competitor.

  I guess a key objective I left out was:

  "Respect for the dignity of all participants."

  I also think "...maximizing available flying time during a contest..." is
  better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown.

  Tim Bennett
  LSF IV

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RE: [RCSE] Contest format

There is some validity to your point about penalizing the 6 except that in a
"real" contest, 9 points or less out of ten, which corresponds to 900  or
less out of 1000, is a low score. Once the issue is decided lets start the
next flight group.
  -Original Message-
  From: tony estep [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 10:53 PM
  To: soaring@airage.com
  Subject: [RCSE] Contest format

  Original message:
  Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do not do
this at TNT...
  ===
  Marc is right on. At a "real" contest, this sort of thing is fundamentally
unfair. If everybody launches into the same air and one guy finds the air
and gets max, while 6 out of 7 guys mess up and land early, they have to
earn low scores, in fairness to everybody in the contest. The air was there
and they blew their shot. Setting up some artificial scheme to pardon their
failure is better policy for club contests than for the real thing -- sort
of like allowing free popoffs.

Re: [RCSE] Contest format

2008-01-09 Thread Steve Schneider

Maybe we should just do politically correct soaring contests and not keep
score, like many kids sports programs these days.  We wouldn't want to hurt
any ones feelings, now would we?

On Jan 9, 2008 10:53 PM, tony estep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Original message:
> Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do not do
> this at TNT...
> ===
> Marc is right on. At a "real" contest, this sort of thing is
> fundamentally  unfair. If everybody launches into the same air and one guy
> finds the air and gets max, while 6 out of 7 guys mess up and land early,
> they have to earn low scores, in fairness to everybody in the contest. The
> air was there and they blew their shot. Setting up some artificial scheme to
> pardon their failure is better policy for club contests than for the real
> thing -- sort of like allowing free popoffs.
>



-- 
Steve Schneider
Buffalo Grove, IL
SOAR Club

[RCSE] Contest format

2008-01-09 Thread tony estep

Original message:
Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do not do this 
at TNT...
===
Marc is right on. At a "real" contest, this sort of thing is fundamentally  
unfair. If everybody launches into the same air and one guy finds the air and 
gets max, while 6 out of 7 guys mess up and land early, they have to earn low 
scores, in fairness to everybody in the contest. The air was there and they 
blew their shot. Setting up some artificial scheme to pardon their failure is 
better policy for club contests than for the real thing -- sort of like 
allowing free popoffs.

Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-09 Thread John Erickson

Tim,

I appreciate all the thought you've put into the format.  I'd side with Jim,
however, on flying out the time.  If someone puts the hurt on me I'm not mad
at that person.  I'm mad at myself for not hooking into that air.  I don't
think sportsmanship really comes into play.

I've had the hurt put on me and then have the same guy come over and help
with a broken wing rib or bad battery lead.  That's sportsmanship.

I also like to see when a beginning pilot sneaks out on their own ride while
the experts are way off downwind and scratching.  Nothing builds up your ego
quicker when you're starting out than to have an expert pilot come poach
some air you've been working.

Your suggestion of coming down does move things along, but when the group is
on the ground at 5 minutes and I've taken a big risk being off by myself and
have a done a good job of working it, I don't think my effort should be
worth just a single point more than one of the 5 minute guys.

No matter what the format, it sure beats work :-)

JE
--
John Erickson
LSF V #122

> From: "Tim Bennett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 21:52:53 -0600
> To: 
> Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
> 
> 
> 
> Jim Bacus wrote:
>> 
>> "Shafting" the other fellow competitors by completing the task
>> time?  "Unethical?"  ;-)
>> 
>> I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest
>> event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to
>> maximize my score.
> 
> 
> Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the
> weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a
> structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as
> unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful
> competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to "bury" someone
> who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for
> as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of
> structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode
> of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance
> round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than
> being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the
> expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a
> turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of
> the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address.
> 
> By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not
> able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor
> opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to
> structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time
> and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance
> of any competitor.
> 
> I guess a key objective I left out was:
> 
> "Respect for the dignity of all participants."
> 
> I also think "...maximizing available flying time during a contest..." is
> better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown.
> 
> Tim Bennett
> LSF IV
> 
> RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.  Send "subscribe" and
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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-09 Thread Marc Gellart

Well Tim, you just lost me with your last comments.  I guess the home town 
crowd has gotten soft in Texas (was raised in Arlington). Here in OVSS land you 
live and die to get the low save, downwind escape, faint read that no one else 
gets.  We are flying 6 to 7 rounds a day of 10-13 minute flights at  most of 
our contests, so we fly alot, and the guy who gets that fantastic flight is 
held up as the hero, not the zero.  With our seeding, it is like watching golf, 
the last group is the big boys and literally, everyone watches and enjoys the 
battle.  I wish we could seed out the Nats, but just too big to make the time 
work.

This sounds way to politically correct for me, we do not fly outcome based 
soaring here.  Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do 
not do this at TNT when I finally get to come back.

Marc --- Begin Message ---

Jim Bacus wrote:
>
> "Shafting" the other fellow competitors by completing the task
> time?  "Unethical?"  ;-)
>
> I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest
> event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to
> maximize my score.

Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the
weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a
structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as
unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful
competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to "bury" someone
who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for
as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of
structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode
of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance
round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than
being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the
expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a
turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of
the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address.

By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not
able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor
opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to
structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time
and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance
of any competitor.

I guess a key objective I left out was:

"Respect for the dignity of all participants."

I also think "...maximizing available flying time during a contest..." is
better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown.

Tim Bennett
LSF IV

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text format
--- End Message ---

Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-09 Thread Jeff Steifel


Absolutely... I agree with Jim.
Throwing dirt their way or being buried is part of the sport.
What if you didn't have man on man, the results would be the same 
anyway. I'm not sure I understand why you would bring the pilots down 
early. You actually compress the groups scores.



James V. Bacus wrote:
"Shafting" the other fellow competitors by completing the task time?  
"Unethical?"  ;-)


I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest 
event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize 
my score.



At 07:16 PM 1/9/2008, Chuck Anderson wrote:
I never liked the idea of shafting a fellow competitor.  It always 
seemed to me to be unethical.


Jim
Downers Grove, IL
Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR
AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV   R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net

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--
Jeff Steifel

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RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

Jim Bacus wrote:
>
> "Shafting" the other fellow competitors by completing the task
> time?  "Unethical?"  ;-)
>
> I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest
> event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to
> maximize my score.

Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the
weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a
structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as
unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful
competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to "bury" someone
who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for
as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of
structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode
of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance
round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than
being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the
expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a
turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of
the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address.

By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not
able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor
opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to
structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time
and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance
of any competitor.

I guess a key objective I left out was:

"Respect for the dignity of all participants."

I also think "...maximizing available flying time during a contest..." is
better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown.

Tim Bennett
LSF IV

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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-09 Thread James V. Bacus

"Shafting" the other fellow competitors by completing the task 
time?  "Unethical?"  ;-)


I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest 
event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize my score.



At 07:16 PM 1/9/2008, Chuck Anderson wrote:
I never liked the idea of shafting a fellow competitor.  It always 
seemed to me to be unethical.


Jim
Downers Grove, IL
Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR
AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV   R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net

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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-09 Thread Chuck Anderson


At 06:29 PM 1/9/2008, you wrote:
Interesting twist on seeded MoM.  But one of the things I always 
enjoyed in this contest format was getting a good "burial" in a contest. Jim


This is the thing I hate most about MOM.  I never liked the idea of 
shafting a fellow competitor.  It always seemed to me to be 
unethical.  The other thing I don't like about seeded MOM is 
normalizing the scores.  The idea of giving one man 1000 points for a 
flight while giving another flier half as many points for flying 
twice as long in a different group is morally wrong.  I have seen 
this happen.  In seeded MOM, normalizing isn't needed.  That's 
already done by making you fly against your peers.  Normalizing may 
be more beneficial when seeding isn't possible.


Chuck Anderson 


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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

2008-01-09 Thread James V. Bacus


At 02:40 PM 1/9/2008, Tim Bennett wrote:


The pace of the contest is improved because once there is only one in the
air, there is no value in continuing to fly so the winner lands and the next
group can fly. No burying the group while everyone waits. Timers are
required to communicate about the time to beat. Scoring is second grade
arithmetic; could not be simpler or quicker. No waiting around to figure the
seeding.



Interesting twist on seeded MoM.  But one of the things I always 
enjoyed in this contest format was getting a good "burial" in a 
contest.  Getting away on a good group of pilots and getting a max 
when the others couldn't make it happen.  It keeps some strategy in 
the game keeping an eye on other good pilots and not letting them 
"break away" on the pack.


Flying it out with all eyes upon you, and hitting that landing with 
everyone watching is a LOT of fun.



Jim
Downers Grove, IL
Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR
AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV   R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net

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[RCSE] Contest Format