A confession

[Alastair Hearsum]

Folks

Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a 
little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin 
round it.


Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments in 
some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good 
position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example 
of the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But 
first just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I 
like to bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically 
all fingers and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down 
car waiting on a big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its 
not true. I do have a degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and 
physics at university and programmed extensively in Lisp in my first 
job. So I'm not stupid BUT:


*I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere after 
I have applied n-cloth to it!*


Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced by 
people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the 
all encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think 
are really fundamental problems and more important in some ways than 
headline large features.  Admittedly I had had a couple of glasses of 
wine by that point and it was a casual , before bedtime attempt to try 
something out but I had already twice asked my colleague at work to 
explain what the procedure was and I followed what he was doing at the time.


So there you have it. Is it me.?

Alastair

--
Alastair Hearsum
Head of 3d
GLASSWORKS
33/34 Great Pulteney Street
London
W1F 9NP
+44 (0)20 7434 1182
glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
(Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 
25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)

Please consider the environment before you print this email.
DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private 
and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). 
Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do 
not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the 
intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in 
error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying 
of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received 
in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message 
from your system.

Re: A confession

[Gaël Honorez]

You have to open the hypershade, and graph the sphere.

Then you  will get a awfully large network that is not humanely readable.

So you will open the Node Editor, graph the sphere, and get a nicer 
graph in a interface that doesn't allow to do everything you need to do, 
but you will learn what to open in what case with time.


Here you will see that the polySphere operator is still there.
Click on it, and edit the subdivision.

Why isn't that available after nCloth is applied? Nobody knows, you 
don't ask these questions when using maya. Or you go crazy very fast.


It's not the "programming DCC" because it's flexible, it's the 
"programming DCC" because you have will have your shelves full of mel 
scripts to do simple things very rapidly :)




On 19/03/2014 10:32, Alastair Hearsum wrote:


Folks

Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a 
little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and 
spin round it.


Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments 
in some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a 
good position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an 
example of the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's 
faces. But first just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my 
difficulty. I like to bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who 
is technically all fingers and thumbs, like the woman by the side of 
her broken down car waiting on a big strong man to help her out. The 
truth is that its not true. I do have a degree in Fine Art but I also 
studied maths and physics at university and programmed extensively in 
Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:


*I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere 
after I have applied n-cloth to it!*


Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced 
by people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of 
the all encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I 
think are really fundamental problems and more important in some ways 
than headline large features.  Admittedly I had had a couple of 
glasses of wine by that point and it was a casual , before bedtime 
attempt to try something out but I had already twice asked my 
colleague at work to explain what the procedure was and I followed 
what he was doing at the time.


So there you have it. Is it me.?

Alastair

--
Alastair Hearsum
Head of 3d
GLASSWORKS
33/34 Great Pulteney Street
London
W1F 9NP
+44 (0)20 7434 1182
glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
(Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 
25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)

Please consider the environment before you print this email.
DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, 
private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated 
recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the 
author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you 
are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this 
e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, 
or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission 
is received in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete 
this message from your system.

Re: A confession

[Ivan Vasiljevic]

You should go with something more simpler for start:

Try opening few outliners as you would often have few explorer opened in SI.
Since hypershade is passe try opening fancy node editor and try to branch
material based on your object selection, something default branched in
render tree.

I know there is more Maya-SI users let's have more of these here... I have
plenty more on my mind...

Ivan



On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 10:34 AM, Gaël Honorez  wrote:

>
> You have to open the hypershade, and graph the sphere.
>
> Then you  will get a awfully large network that is not humanely readable.
>
> So you will open the Node Editor, graph the sphere, and get a nicer graph
> in a interface that doesn't allow to do everything you need to do, but you
> will learn what to open in what case with time.
>
> Here you will see that the polySphere operator is still there.
> Click on it, and edit the subdivision.
>
> Why isn't that available after nCloth is applied? Nobody knows, you don't
> ask these questions when using maya. Or you go crazy very fast.
>
> It's not the "programming DCC" because it's flexible, it's the
> "programming DCC" because you have will have your shelves full of mel
> scripts to do simple things very rapidly :)
>
>
>
>
> On 19/03/2014 10:32, Alastair Hearsum wrote:
>
> Folks
>
>  Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a
> little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin
> round it.
>
>  Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments in
> some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good
> position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example of
> the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first
> just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to
> bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all fingers
> and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down car waiting on a
> big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its not true. I do have a
> degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and physics at university and
> programmed extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
>
>  *I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere after
> I have applied n-cloth to it!*
>
>  Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced by
> people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the all
> encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are
> really fundamental problems and more important in some ways than headline
> large features.  Admittedly I had had a couple of glasses of wine by that
> point and it was a casual , before bedtime attempt to try something out but
> I had already twice asked my colleague at work to explain what the
> procedure was and I followed what he was doing at the time.
>
>  So there you have it. Is it me.?
>
>  Alastair
>
>  --
>  Alastair Hearsum
>  Head of 3d
> [image: GLASSWORKS]
>  33/34 Great Pulteney Street
> London
> W1F 9NP
> +44 (0)20 7434 1182
> glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
>  Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
>  (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25
> Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
>  Please consider the environment before you print this email.
>  DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private
> and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any
> views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not
> necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended
> recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that
> any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is
> strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please
> kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system.
>
>
>


-- 
Ivan Vasiljevic
-
Lighting TD
Founder, Digital Asset Tailors
-
reel:https://vimeo.com/72183649
web:www.ivasiljevic.com
email:  i...@digitalassettailors.com
   ivan_vasilje...@hotmail.com

Re: A confession

[Stefano Jannuzzo]

You're not alone


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Alastair Hearsum  wrote:

>  Folks
>
>  Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a
> little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin
> round it.
>
>  Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments in
> some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good
> position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example of
> the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first
> just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to
> bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all fingers
> and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down car waiting on a
> big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its not true. I do have a
> degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and physics at university and
> programmed extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
>
>  *I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere after
> I have applied n-cloth to it!*
>
>  Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced by
> people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the all
> encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are
> really fundamental problems and more important in some ways than headline
> large features.  Admittedly I had had a couple of glasses of wine by that
> point and it was a casual , before bedtime attempt to try something out but
> I had already twice asked my colleague at work to explain what the
> procedure was and I followed what he was doing at the time.
>
>  So there you have it. Is it me.?
>
>  Alastair
>
>
>

RE: A confession

[Nick Angus]

First rule of Maya: forget ergonomics, the engine is powerful but the cockpit 
is a giant birds nest constructed from thousands of tiny birds nests.

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Alastair Hearsum<mailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk>
Sent: ‎19/‎03/‎2014 7:33 PM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: A confession

Folks
 Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a little poke 
every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin round it.
 Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments in some 
eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good position to 
appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example of the trouble I'm 
having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first just a couple of 
more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to bill myself as the 
sensitive artist/animator who is technically all fingers and thumbs, like the 
woman by the side of her broken down car waiting on a big strong man to help 
her out. The truth is that its not true. I do have a degree in Fine Art but I 
also studied maths and physics at university and programmed extensively in Lisp 
in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
 I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere after I have 
applied n-cloth to it!
 Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced by 
people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the all 
encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are really 
fundamental problems and more important in some ways than headline large 
features.  Admittedly I had had a couple of glasses of wine by that point and 
it was a casual , before bedtime attempt to try something out but I had already 
twice asked my colleague at work to explain what the procedure was and I 
followed what he was doing at the time.
 So there you have it. Is it me.?
 Alastair

--
Alastair Hearsum
Head of 3d
[GLASSWORKS]
33/34 Great Pulteney Street
London
W1F 9NP
+44 (0)20 7434 1182
glassworks.co.uk<http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
(Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 
Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
Please consider the environment before you print this email.
DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and 
confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or 
opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily 
represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be 
advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, 
dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly 
prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it 
to the sender and delete this message from your system.

Re: A confession

[Nicolas Esposito]

Same boat here, but I'm lazy and I've subscribed to digitaltutors in order
to start from scratch and learn some tips and tricks in order to be more
productive.

Honestly, since I never looked into Maya that much ( except for some Apex
clothing stuff ) but I appreciate some of the feature related to game
development and I'm curious to see how my workflow will change, hopefully (
praying mostly ) that it wont be so underwhelming then Softimage


2014-03-19 10:52 GMT+01:00 Stefano Jannuzzo :

> You're not alone
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 10:32 AM, Alastair Hearsum <
> hear...@glassworks.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>  Folks
>>
>>  Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a
>> little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin
>> round it.
>>
>>  Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments
>> in some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good
>> position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example of
>> the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first
>> just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to
>> bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all fingers
>> and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down car waiting on a
>> big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its not true. I do have a
>> degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and physics at university and
>> programmed extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
>>
>>  *I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere
>> after I have applied n-cloth to it!*
>>
>>  Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced
>> by people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the
>> all encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are
>> really fundamental problems and more important in some ways than headline
>> large features.  Admittedly I had had a couple of glasses of wine by that
>> point and it was a casual , before bedtime attempt to try something out but
>> I had already twice asked my colleague at work to explain what the
>> procedure was and I followed what he was doing at the time.
>>
>>  So there you have it. Is it me.?
>>
>>  Alastair
>>
>>
>>

Re: A confession

[Sebastien Sterling]

Apt analogy, but you omitted that each nest is covered in bird shit :P


On 19 March 2014 09:54, Nick Angus  wrote:

>  First rule of Maya: forget ergonomics, the engine is powerful but the
> cockpit is a giant birds nest constructed from thousands of tiny birds
> nests.
>
> Sent from my Windows Phone
>  --
> From: Alastair Hearsum 
> Sent: 19/03/2014 7:33 PM
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: A confession
>
>  Folks
>
>  Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a little
> poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin round it.
>
>  Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments in
> some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good
> position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example of
> the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first
> just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to
> bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all fingers
> and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down car waiting on a
> big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its not true. I do have a
> degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and physics at university and
> programmed extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
>
>  *I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere after
> I have applied n-cloth to it!*
>
>  Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced by
> people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the all
> encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are
> really fundamental problems and more important in some ways than headline
> large features.  Admittedly I had had a couple of glasses of wine by that
> point and it was a casual , before bedtime attempt to try something out but
> I had already twice asked my colleague at work to explain what the
> procedure was and I followed what he was doing at the time.
>
>  So there you have it. Is it me.?
>
>  Alastair
>
>  --
> Alastair Hearsum
> Head of 3d
> [image: GLASSWORKS]
> 33/34 Great Pulteney Street
> London
> W1F 9NP
> +44 (0)20 7434 1182
> glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
> Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
> (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25
> Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
> Please consider the environment before you print this email.
> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private
> and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any
> views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not
> necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended
> recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that
> any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is
> strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please
> kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system.
>

Re: A confession

[Chris Marshall]

Alastair,
Even I remember those Lisp days! Shudder!
Anyway, can I ask, are you now trying Maya because Autodesk were so kind to
give you a free version, or because you feel it really is the way forward
for us Softies?
I still have no idea which way to turn.
Cheers



On 19 March 2014 09:57, Sebastien Sterling wrote:

> Apt analogy, but you omitted that each nest is covered in bird shit :P
>
>
> On 19 March 2014 09:54, Nick Angus  wrote:
>
>>  First rule of Maya: forget ergonomics, the engine is powerful but the
>> cockpit is a giant birds nest constructed from thousands of tiny birds
>> nests.
>>
>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>  --
>> From: Alastair Hearsum 
>> Sent: 19/03/2014 7:33 PM
>>
>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>> Subject: A confession
>>
>>  Folks
>>
>>  Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a
>> little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin
>> round it.
>>
>>  Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments in
>> some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good
>> position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example of
>> the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first
>> just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to
>> bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all fingers
>> and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down car waiting on a
>> big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its not true. I do have a
>> degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and physics at university and
>> programmed extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
>>
>>  *I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere
>> after I have applied n-cloth to it!*
>>
>>  Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced by
>> people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the all
>> encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are
>> really fundamental problems and more important in some ways than headline
>> large features.  Admittedly I had had a couple of glasses of wine by that
>> point and it was a casual , before bedtime attempt to try something out but
>> I had already twice asked my colleague at work to explain what the
>> procedure was and I followed what he was doing at the time.
>>
>>  So there you have it. Is it me.?
>>
>>  Alastair
>>
>>  --
>> Alastair Hearsum
>> Head of 3d
>> [image: GLASSWORKS]
>> 33/34 Great Pulteney Street
>> London
>> W1F 9NP
>> +44 (0)20 7434 1182
>> glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
>> Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
>> (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25
>> Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
>> Please consider the environment before you print this email.
>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private
>> and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any
>> views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not
>> necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended
>> recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that
>> any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is
>> strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please
>> kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system.
>>
>
>


-- 

Chris Marshall
Mint Motion Limited
029 20 37 27 57
07730 533 115
www.mintmotion.co.uk

Re: A confession

[Jacob Gonzalez]

I had a very short expierence with Maya a while ago (mainly driven by
curiosity). It was to do with rendering. It went something like this:

*Maya user*: I need to replace all the characters in my scene because they
are not referenced and there has been topology, shader  changes (objects
are called the same)
*Me*: That's cool. Bring the new characters, match Partitions and done :)
*Maya use*r:  . what?
*Me*: Match Render Layer Overrides ?
*Maya Use*r: not possible.
*Me *: Wow! what are you going to do.
*Maya User*: I will bring the characters one by one . And character by
character, render layer by render layer, object by object I will re-assign
all the relevant overrides or changes made in  this and my other 5 render
scenes!
*Me*: Ok. Let me know when you are done with this. You are staying
late?


J




On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Sebastien Sterling <
sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Apt analogy, but you omitted that each nest is covered in bird shit :P
>
>
> On 19 March 2014 09:54, Nick Angus  wrote:
>
>>  First rule of Maya: forget ergonomics, the engine is powerful but the
>> cockpit is a giant birds nest constructed from thousands of tiny birds
>> nests.
>>
>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>  --
>> From: Alastair Hearsum 
>> Sent: 19/03/2014 7:33 PM
>>
>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>> Subject: A confession
>>
>>  Folks
>>
>>  Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a
>> little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin
>> round it.
>>
>>  Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments in
>> some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good
>> position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example of
>> the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first
>> just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to
>> bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all fingers
>> and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down car waiting on a
>> big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its not true. I do have a
>> degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and physics at university and
>> programmed extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
>>
>>  *I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere
>> after I have applied n-cloth to it!*
>>
>>  Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced by
>> people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the all
>> encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are
>> really fundamental problems and more important in some ways than headline
>> large features.  Admittedly I had had a couple of glasses of wine by that
>> point and it was a casual , before bedtime attempt to try something out but
>> I had already twice asked my colleague at work to explain what the
>> procedure was and I followed what he was doing at the time.
>>
>>  So there you have it. Is it me.?
>>
>>  Alastair
>>
>>  --
>> Alastair Hearsum
>> Head of 3d
>> [image: GLASSWORKS]
>> 33/34 Great Pulteney Street
>> London
>> W1F 9NP
>> +44 (0)20 7434 1182
>> glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
>> Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
>> (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25
>> Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
>> Please consider the environment before you print this email.
>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private
>> and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any
>> views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not
>> necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended
>> recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that
>> any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is
>> strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please
>> kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system.
>>
>
>

Re: A confession

[Martin Contel]

Sad but true, Jacob... The worst thing is that Maya users who have never
tried something else don't know that the grass was greener on the other
side.

Saludetes!

--
Martin Contel
Square Enix (Visual Works)


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 7:18 PM, Jacob Gonzalez wrote:

> I had a very short expierence with Maya a while ago (mainly driven by
> curiosity). It was to do with rendering. It went something like this:
>
> *Maya user*: I need to replace all the characters in my scene because
> they are not referenced and there has been topology, shader  changes
> (objects are called the same)
> *Me*: That's cool. Bring the new characters, match Partitions and done :)
> *Maya use*r:  . what?
> *Me*: Match Render Layer Overrides ?
> *Maya Use*r: not possible.
> *Me *: Wow! what are you going to do.
> *Maya User*: I will bring the characters one by one . And character by
> character, render layer by render layer, object by object I will re-assign
> all the relevant overrides or changes made in  this and my other 5 render
> scenes!
> *Me*: Ok. Let me know when you are done with this. You are
> staying late?
> 
>
> J
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Sebastien Sterling <
> sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Apt analogy, but you omitted that each nest is covered in bird shit :P
>>
>>
>> On 19 March 2014 09:54, Nick Angus  wrote:
>>
>>>  First rule of Maya: forget ergonomics, the engine is powerful but the
>>> cockpit is a giant birds nest constructed from thousands of tiny birds
>>> nests.
>>>
>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>  ------
>>> From: Alastair Hearsum 
>>> Sent: 19/03/2014 7:33 PM
>>>
>>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>>> Subject: A confession
>>>
>>>  Folks
>>>
>>>  Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a
>>> little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin
>>> round it.
>>>
>>>  Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments
>>> in some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good
>>> position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example of
>>> the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first
>>> just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to
>>> bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all fingers
>>> and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down car waiting on a
>>> big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its not true. I do have a
>>> degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and physics at university and
>>> programmed extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
>>>
>>>  *I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere
>>> after I have applied n-cloth to it!*
>>>
>>>  Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced
>>> by people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the
>>> all encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are
>>> really fundamental problems and more important in some ways than headline
>>> large features.  Admittedly I had had a couple of glasses of wine by that
>>> point and it was a casual , before bedtime attempt to try something out but
>>> I had already twice asked my colleague at work to explain what the
>>> procedure was and I followed what he was doing at the time.
>>>
>>>  So there you have it. Is it me.?
>>>
>>>  Alastair
>>>
>>>  --
>>> Alastair Hearsum
>>> Head of 3d
>>> [image: GLASSWORKS]
>>> 33/34 Great Pulteney Street
>>> London
>>> W1F 9NP
>>> +44 (0)20 7434 1182
>>> glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
>>> Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
>>> (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office
>>> 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
>>> Please consider the environment before you print this email.
>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private
>>> and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any
>>> views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not
>>> necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended
>>> recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that
>>> any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is
>>> strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please
>>> kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system.
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: A confession

[Gaël Honorez]

On 19/03/2014 10:51, Ivan Vasiljevic wrote:

You should go with something more simpler for start:

Try opening few outliners as you would often have few explorer opened 
in SI.

Since hypershade is passe


Is it?

I'm still using 2013, but it's almost the same in 2014 : The node editor 
is far from being workable outside demos.


It's doing too much or not enough.
Ie, unless I'm missing something :

- It's doesn't list all the materials in the scene, even less only the 
textures/shaders/SG (something really needed)
- Graphing what you want is like throwing a dice that doesn't have the 
number you bet on.

- When it does, it graph half the scene with it.
- It doesn't show basic connections like outMesh->inMesh in any mode, 
and the connection editor is still required for any task.



After 10 years, I still amazed about how Maya can't do the most basics 
things possible, and have the same bugs for years.


ie. object sets stop showing content in some (not rare) occasions.
The color picker reset the color if you don't click "done" before 
closing the editor (new bug from 2011).


Actually, the color picker, all by itself, has so many user interface 
bugs or missing features that you feel the need to bang your head each 
time you open it.




On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 10:34 AM, Gaël Honorez <mailto:g...@nozon.com>> wrote:



You have to open the hypershade, and graph the sphere.

Then you  will get a awfully large network that is not humanely
readable.

So you will open the Node Editor, graph the sphere, and get a
nicer graph in a interface that doesn't allow to do everything you
need to do, but you will learn what to open in what case with time.

Here you will see that the polySphere operator is still there.
Click on it, and edit the subdivision.

Why isn't that available after nCloth is applied? Nobody knows,
you don't ask these questions when using maya. Or you go crazy
very fast.

It's not the "programming DCC" because it's flexible, it's the
"programming DCC" because you have will have your shelves full of
mel scripts to do simple things very rapidly :)




On 19/03/2014 10:32, Alastair Hearsum wrote:


Folks

 Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had
a little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere
and spin round it.

 Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my
comments in some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts
me in quite a good position to appraise the software at a certain
level. Here is an example of the trouble I'm having that may
bring a smile to people's faces. But first just a couple of more
sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to bill myself as
the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all fingers and
thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down car waiting
on a big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its not
true. I do have a degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and
physics at university and programmed extensively in Lisp in my
first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:

*I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a
sphere after I have applied n-cloth to it!*

 Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many
experienced by people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its
symptomatic of the all encompassing interface workflow issues
that Maya has that I think are really fundamental problems and
more important in some ways than headline large features.
 Admittedly I had had a couple of glasses of wine by that point
and it was a casual , before bedtime attempt to try something out
but I had already twice asked my colleague at work to explain
what the procedure was and I followed what he was doing at the time.

 So there you have it. Is it me.?

 Alastair

-- 
Alastair Hearsum

Head of 3d
GLASSWORKS
33/34 Great Pulteney Street
London
W1F 9NP
+44 (0)20 7434 1182 
glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at
glassworks.co.uk <http://glassworks.co.uk>
(Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered
office 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration
number: 86729)
Please consider the environment before you print this email.
DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged,
private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated
recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of
the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company.
If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have
received 

Re: A confession

[Emilio Hernandez]

Ohh you really don't have to worry.  Maya has a single state of the art
button solution!

Send to Softimage ->

---
Emilio Hernández   VFX & 3D animation.


2014-03-19 4:23 GMT-06:00 Martin Contel :

> Sad but true, Jacob... The worst thing is that Maya users who have never
> tried something else don't know that the grass was greener on the other
> side.
>
> Saludetes!
>
> --
> Martin Contel
> Square Enix (Visual Works)
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 7:18 PM, Jacob Gonzalez wrote:
>
>> I had a very short expierence with Maya a while ago (mainly driven by
>> curiosity). It was to do with rendering. It went something like this:
>>
>> *Maya user*: I need to replace all the characters in my scene because
>> they are not referenced and there has been topology, shader  changes
>> (objects are called the same)
>> *Me*: That's cool. Bring the new characters, match Partitions and done :)
>> *Maya use*r:  . what?
>> *Me*: Match Render Layer Overrides ?
>> *Maya Use*r: not possible.
>> *Me *: Wow! what are you going to do.
>> *Maya User*: I will bring the characters one by one . And character by
>> character, render layer by render layer, object by object I will re-assign
>> all the relevant overrides or changes made in  this and my other 5 render
>> scenes!
>> *Me*: Ok. Let me know when you are done with this. You are
>> staying late?
>> 
>>
>> J
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Sebastien Sterling <
>> sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Apt analogy, but you omitted that each nest is covered in bird shit :P
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19 March 2014 09:54, Nick Angus  wrote:
>>>
>>>>  First rule of Maya: forget ergonomics, the engine is powerful but the
>>>> cockpit is a giant birds nest constructed from thousands of tiny birds
>>>> nests.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>>  --
>>>> From: Alastair Hearsum 
>>>> Sent: 19/03/2014 7:33 PM
>>>>
>>>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>>>> Subject: A confession
>>>>
>>>>  Folks
>>>>
>>>>  Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a
>>>> little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin
>>>> round it.
>>>>
>>>>  Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments
>>>> in some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good
>>>> position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example of
>>>> the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first
>>>> just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to
>>>> bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all fingers
>>>> and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down car waiting on a
>>>> big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its not true. I do have a
>>>> degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and physics at university and
>>>> programmed extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
>>>>
>>>>  *I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere
>>>> after I have applied n-cloth to it!*
>>>>
>>>>  Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced
>>>> by people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the
>>>> all encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are
>>>> really fundamental problems and more important in some ways than headline
>>>> large features.  Admittedly I had had a couple of glasses of wine by that
>>>> point and it was a casual , before bedtime attempt to try something out but
>>>> I had already twice asked my colleague at work to explain what the
>>>> procedure was and I followed what he was doing at the time.
>>>>
>>>>  So there you have it. Is it me.?
>>>>
>>>>  Alastair
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>> Alastair Hearsum
>>>> Head of 3d
>>>> [image: GLASSWORKS]
>>>> 33/34 Great Pulteney Street
>>>> London
>>>> W1F 9NP
>>>> +44 (0)20 7434 1182
>>>> glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
>>>> Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at
>>>> glassworks.co.uk
>>>> (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office
>>>> 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
>>>> Please consider the environment before you print this email.
>>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged,
>>>> private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated
>>>> recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the
>>>> author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are
>>>> not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail
>>>> in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying
>>>> of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in
>>>> error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from
>>>> your system.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

RE: A confession

[Neil Kidney]

All I hear is how shit Maya is. surely it does some things well? The
headline features like nCloth etc. [admittedly I don't know what the etc is]
are meant to be pretty decent, what about low level [but essential]
functionality like the stuff listed below? What would be an eye opener when
comparing it to XSI?
 
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Jacob Gonzalez
Sent: 19 March 2014 10:18
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: A confession
 
I had a very short expierence with Maya a while ago (mainly driven by
curiosity). It was to do with rendering. It went something like this:
 
Maya user: I need to replace all the characters in my scene because they are
not referenced and there has been topology, shader  changes (objects are
called the same)
Me: That's cool. Bring the new characters, match Partitions and done :)
Maya user:  . what? 
Me: Match Render Layer Overrides ?
Maya User: not possible.
Me : Wow! what are you going to do.
Maya User: I will bring the characters one by one . And character by
character, render layer by render layer, object by object I will re-assign
all the relevant overrides or changes made in  this and my other 5 render
scenes!
Me: Ok. Let me know when you are done with this. You are staying
late? 

 
J
 
 
 
On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Sebastien Sterling
 wrote:
Apt analogy, but you omitted that each nest is covered in bird shit :P
 
On 19 March 2014 09:54, Nick Angus  wrote:
First rule of Maya: forget ergonomics, the engine is powerful but the
cockpit is a giant birds nest constructed from thousands of tiny birds
nests. 

Sent from my Windows Phone
  _  

From: Alastair Hearsum <mailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk> 
Sent: 19/03/2014 7:33 PM

To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: A confession
Folks
 Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a little
poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin round it. 
 Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments in
some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good
position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example of
the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first
just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to
bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all fingers
and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down car waiting on a
big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its not true. I do have a
degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and physics at university and
programmed extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
 I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere after I
have applied n-cloth to it!
 Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced by
people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the all
encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are really
fundamental problems and more important in some ways than headline large
features.  Admittedly I had had a couple of glasses of wine by that point
and it was a casual , before bedtime attempt to try something out but I had
already twice asked my colleague at work to explain what the procedure was
and I followed what he was doing at the time.
 So there you have it. Is it me.?
 Alastair
-- 
Alastair Hearsum 
Head of 3d 
 GLASSWORKS <http://old.glassworks.co.uk/images/Logo_UK.jpg> 
33/34 Great Pulteney Street
London
W1F 9NP
+44 (0)20 7434 1182  
glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>  
Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk 
(Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25
Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729) 
Please consider the environment before you print this email. 
DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and
confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views
or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily
represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be
advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use,
dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly
prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return
it to the sender and delete this message from your system. 
 
 

Re: A confession

[Ivan Vasiljevic]

Oooh and isn't this one of the biggest PITA , talking to Maya users who
actually never tried SI...
Common' if you haven't tried how can you now what's better

Ivan


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 11:23 AM, Martin Contel wrote:

> Sad but true, Jacob... The worst thing is that Maya users who have never
> tried something else don't know that the grass was greener on the other
> side.
>
> Saludetes!
>
> --
> Martin Contel
> Square Enix (Visual Works)
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 7:18 PM, Jacob Gonzalez wrote:
>
>> I had a very short expierence with Maya a while ago (mainly driven by
>> curiosity). It was to do with rendering. It went something like this:
>>
>> *Maya user*: I need to replace all the characters in my scene because
>> they are not referenced and there has been topology, shader  changes
>> (objects are called the same)
>> *Me*: That's cool. Bring the new characters, match Partitions and done :)
>> *Maya use*r:  . what?
>> *Me*: Match Render Layer Overrides ?
>> *Maya Use*r: not possible.
>> *Me *: Wow! what are you going to do.
>> *Maya User*: I will bring the characters one by one . And character by
>> character, render layer by render layer, object by object I will re-assign
>> all the relevant overrides or changes made in  this and my other 5 render
>> scenes!
>> *Me*: Ok. Let me know when you are done with this. You are
>> staying late?
>> 
>>
>> J
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Sebastien Sterling <
>> sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Apt analogy, but you omitted that each nest is covered in bird shit :P
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19 March 2014 09:54, Nick Angus  wrote:
>>>
>>>>  First rule of Maya: forget ergonomics, the engine is powerful but the
>>>> cockpit is a giant birds nest constructed from thousands of tiny birds
>>>> nests.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>>  --
>>>> From: Alastair Hearsum 
>>>> Sent: 19/03/2014 7:33 PM
>>>>
>>>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>>>> Subject: A confession
>>>>
>>>>  Folks
>>>>
>>>>  Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a
>>>> little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin
>>>> round it.
>>>>
>>>>  Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments
>>>> in some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good
>>>> position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example of
>>>> the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first
>>>> just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to
>>>> bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all fingers
>>>> and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down car waiting on a
>>>> big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its not true. I do have a
>>>> degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and physics at university and
>>>> programmed extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
>>>>
>>>>  *I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere
>>>> after I have applied n-cloth to it!*
>>>>
>>>>  Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced
>>>> by people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the
>>>> all encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are
>>>> really fundamental problems and more important in some ways than headline
>>>> large features.  Admittedly I had had a couple of glasses of wine by that
>>>> point and it was a casual , before bedtime attempt to try something out but
>>>> I had already twice asked my colleague at work to explain what the
>>>> procedure was and I followed what he was doing at the time.
>>>>
>>>>  So there you have it. Is it me.?
>>>>
>>>>  Alastair
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>> Alastair Hearsum
>>>> Head of 3d
>>>> [image: GLASSWORKS]
>>>> 33/34 Great Pulteney Street
>>>> London
>>>> W1F 9NP
>>>> +44 (0)20 7434 1182
>>>> glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/&

Re: A confession

[Cristobal Infante]

"my other 5 render scenes"

this was the bit that shocked my the most, do you still need to break scene
per passes?


On 19 March 2014 10:29, Emilio Hernandez  wrote:

> Ohh you really don't have to worry.  Maya has a single state of the art
> button solution!
>
> Send to Softimage ->
>
> ---
> Emilio Hernández   VFX & 3D animation.
>
>
> 2014-03-19 4:23 GMT-06:00 Martin Contel :
>
> Sad but true, Jacob... The worst thing is that Maya users who have never
>> tried something else don't know that the grass was greener on the other
>> side.
>>
>> Saludetes!
>>
>> --
>> Martin Contel
>> Square Enix (Visual Works)
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 7:18 PM, Jacob Gonzalez wrote:
>>
>>> I had a very short expierence with Maya a while ago (mainly driven by
>>> curiosity). It was to do with rendering. It went something like this:
>>>
>>> *Maya user*: I need to replace all the characters in my scene because
>>> they are not referenced and there has been topology, shader  changes
>>> (objects are called the same)
>>> *Me*: That's cool. Bring the new characters, match Partitions and done
>>> :)
>>> *Maya use*r:  . what?
>>> *Me*: Match Render Layer Overrides ?
>>> *Maya Use*r: not possible.
>>> *Me *: Wow! what are you going to do.
>>> *Maya User*: I will bring the characters one by one . And character by
>>> character, render layer by render layer, object by object I will re-assign
>>> all the relevant overrides or changes made in  this and my other 5 render
>>> scenes!
>>> *Me*: Ok. Let me know when you are done with this. You are
>>> staying late?
>>> 
>>>
>>> J
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Sebastien Sterling <
>>> sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Apt analogy, but you omitted that each nest is covered in bird shit :P
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 19 March 2014 09:54, Nick Angus  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  First rule of Maya: forget ergonomics, the engine is powerful but
>>>>> the cockpit is a giant birds nest constructed from thousands of tiny birds
>>>>> nests.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>>>  --
>>>>> From: Alastair Hearsum 
>>>>> Sent: 19/03/2014 7:33 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>>>>> Subject: A confession
>>>>>
>>>>>  Folks
>>>>>
>>>>>  Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a
>>>>> little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin
>>>>> round it.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments
>>>>> in some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a 
>>>>> good
>>>>> position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example 
>>>>> of
>>>>> the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first
>>>>> just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to
>>>>> bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all 
>>>>> fingers
>>>>> and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down car waiting on a
>>>>> big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its not true. I do have 
>>>>> a
>>>>> degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and physics at university and
>>>>> programmed extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
>>>>>
>>>>>  *I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere
>>>>> after I have applied n-cloth to it!*
>>>>>
>>>>>  Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced
>>>>> by people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the
>>>>> all encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are
>>>>> really fundamental problems and more important in some ways than headline
>>>>> large features.  Admittedly I had had a couple of glasses of wine by that
>>>>> point and it 

Re: A confession

[Cristobal Infante]

he probably meant 5 other shots right?


On 19 March 2014 10:40, Cristobal Infante  wrote:

> "my other 5 render scenes"
>
> this was the bit that shocked my the most, do you still need to break
> scene per passes?
>
>
> On 19 March 2014 10:29, Emilio Hernandez  wrote:
>
>> Ohh you really don't have to worry.  Maya has a single state of the art
>> button solution!
>>
>> Send to Softimage ->
>>
>> ---
>> Emilio Hernández   VFX & 3D animation.
>>
>>
>> 2014-03-19 4:23 GMT-06:00 Martin Contel :
>>
>> Sad but true, Jacob... The worst thing is that Maya users who have never
>>> tried something else don't know that the grass was greener on the other
>>> side.
>>>
>>> Saludetes!
>>>
>>> --
>>> Martin Contel
>>> Square Enix (Visual Works)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 7:18 PM, Jacob Gonzalez wrote:
>>>
>>>> I had a very short expierence with Maya a while ago (mainly driven by
>>>> curiosity). It was to do with rendering. It went something like this:
>>>>
>>>> *Maya user*: I need to replace all the characters in my scene because
>>>> they are not referenced and there has been topology, shader  changes
>>>> (objects are called the same)
>>>> *Me*: That's cool. Bring the new characters, match Partitions and done
>>>> :)
>>>> *Maya use*r:  . what?
>>>> *Me*: Match Render Layer Overrides ?
>>>> *Maya Use*r: not possible.
>>>> *Me *: Wow! what are you going to do.
>>>> *Maya User*: I will bring the characters one by one . And character by
>>>> character, render layer by render layer, object by object I will re-assign
>>>> all the relevant overrides or changes made in  this and my other 5 render
>>>> scenes!
>>>> *Me*: Ok. Let me know when you are done with this. You are
>>>> staying late?
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> J
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Sebastien Sterling <
>>>> sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Apt analogy, but you omitted that each nest is covered in bird shit :P
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 19 March 2014 09:54, Nick Angus  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  First rule of Maya: forget ergonomics, the engine is powerful but
>>>>>> the cockpit is a giant birds nest constructed from thousands of tiny 
>>>>>> birds
>>>>>> nests.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>>>>  --
>>>>>> From: Alastair Hearsum 
>>>>>> Sent: 19/03/2014 7:33 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>>>>>> Subject: A confession
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Folks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a
>>>>>> little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin
>>>>>> round it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my
>>>>>> comments in some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in
>>>>>> quite a good position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here 
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> an example of the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's
>>>>>> faces. But first just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my
>>>>>> difficulty. I like to bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is
>>>>>> technically all fingers and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her
>>>>>> broken down car waiting on a big strong man to help her out. The truth is
>>>>>> that its not true. I do have a degree in Fine Art but I also studied 
>>>>>> maths
>>>>>> and physics at university and programmed extensively in Lisp in my first
>>>>>> job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  *I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere
>>>>>> after I have applied n-cloth to it!*
>>>>>>
>>>>

Re: A confession

[Chris Gardner]

at some stage of the job, maya's render layers *will* break. the
probability of which increases rapidly the more you use referencing. and
then you'll probably be splitting scenes per pass.

ended up writing my own system that doesn't break. 'cos that's the maya
way, isn't it? there's a f**king script to do that.

cheers,
chrisg

On 19 March 2014 21:40, Cristobal Infante  wrote:

> this was the bit that shocked my the most, do you still need to break
> scene per passes?

Re: A confession

[Siew Yi Liang]

(slinks back into room)

Hi Gael:

AFAIK the node editor is not a hypershade replacement. But I agree the 
disconnect in the node editor UI/hypergraph/hypershade/(UBERMENSCH?) is 
a little annoying too. :)


Anyway, as far as listing all materials in the scene (since I really 
hate working with the hypershade now ever since I got used to the NE), 
what I do is run the following quickie script:


   sel = mc.ls(typ='shadingEngine')

   a = mc.select(sel, ne=True)

Which helps select all shadingEngines nodes in the scene. You can then 
graph the inputs to those nodes in the node editor to instantly get your 
materials listed out in the editor without having to pick them out via 
the hypershade :D


BTW the node editor CAN show outMeshes to inMeshes...in display, you can 
choose to display all shapes and transforms...also check that you're 
graphing both inputs and outputs. And yes, again the UI icons are not 
really helping much in this regard with being clear as to what their 
functions actually are. :P


I've never had any issues with graphing i/o connections, though, but I 
could try to help troubleshoot when I'm free if you're having problems 
with specific cases, I know the NE is kind of wonky at times. I'm on 
2013/2014 as well.


(slinks away)

Yours sincerely,
Siew Yi Liang

On 3/19/2014 3:20 AM, Gaël Honorez wrote:

On 19/03/2014 10:51, Ivan Vasiljevic wrote:

You should go with something more simpler for start:

Try opening few outliners as you would often have few explorer opened 
in SI.

Since hypershade is passe


Is it?

I'm still using 2013, but it's almost the same in 2014 : The node 
editor is far from being workable outside demos.


It's doing too much or not enough.
Ie, unless I'm missing something :

- It's doesn't list all the materials in the scene, even less only the 
textures/shaders/SG (something really needed)
- Graphing what you want is like throwing a dice that doesn't have the 
number you bet on.

- When it does, it graph half the scene with it.
- It doesn't show basic connections like outMesh->inMesh in any mode, 
and the connection editor is still required for any task.



After 10 years, I still amazed about how Maya can't do the most basics 
things possible, and have the same bugs for years.


ie. object sets stop showing content in some (not rare) occasions.
The color picker reset the color if you don't click "done" before 
closing the editor (new bug from 2011).


Actually, the color picker, all by itself, has so many user interface 
bugs or missing features that you feel the need to bang your head each 
time you open it.




On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 10:34 AM, Gaël Honorez <mailto:g...@nozon.com>> wrote:



You have to open the hypershade, and graph the sphere.

Then you  will get a awfully large network that is not humanely
readable.

So you will open the Node Editor, graph the sphere, and get a
nicer graph in a interface that doesn't allow to do everything
you need to do, but you will learn what to open in what case with
time.

Here you will see that the polySphere operator is still there.
Click on it, and edit the subdivision.

Why isn't that available after nCloth is applied? Nobody knows,
you don't ask these questions when using maya. Or you go crazy
very fast.

It's not the "programming DCC" because it's flexible, it's the
"programming DCC" because you have will have your shelves full of
mel scripts to do simple things very rapidly :)




On 19/03/2014 10:32, Alastair Hearsum wrote:


Folks

 Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've
had a little poke every now and again but no more than make a
sphere and spin round it.

 Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my
comments in some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it
puts me in quite a good position to appraise the software at a
certain level. Here is an example of the trouble I'm having that
may bring a smile to people's faces. But first just a couple of
more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to bill
myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all
fingers and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken
down car waiting on a big strong man to help her out. The truth
is that its not true. I do have a degree in Fine Art but I also
studied maths and physics at university and programmed
extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:

*I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a
sphere after I have applied n-cloth to it!*

 Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many
experienced by people I work with who can and have used Maya.
Its symptomatic of the all encompassing 

Re: A confession

[Siew Yi Liang]

Hi Cristobal:

Not necessarily: you can actually reference render layers into scenes 
AFAIK, which is what I'm doing with my student film. Render layers 
themselves are buggier than a beehive, but by rendering via batch 
instead of through the GUI solves most of these issues. Well, mine, 
anyway. :P


However, if referencing workflow wasn't followed at the start, then 
yea...might be difficult/tedious to swap/propogate across scene files 
after that. The good thing is that it IS still possible to 
script/automate the process across scenes, most 
renderLayer/layerOverride functions are still exposed via MEL (although 
some are not, which I'm finding out to my dismay, but most of the 
commands I want exposed to Python are quite esoteric so I doubt most 
people will need them), so it's not impossible to do so...just very 
annoying. :P


Yours sincerely,
Siew Yi Liang

On 3/19/2014 3:41 AM, Cristobal Infante wrote:

he probably meant 5 other shots right?


On 19 March 2014 10:40, Cristobal Infante <mailto:cgc...@gmail.com>> wrote:


"my other 5 render scenes"

this was the bit that shocked my the most, do you still need to
break scene per passes?


On 19 March 2014 10:29, Emilio Hernandez mailto:emi...@e-roja.com>> wrote:

Ohh you really don't have to worry.  Maya has a single state
of the art button solution!

Send to Softimage ->

---
Emilio Hernández   VFX & 3D animation.


2014-03-19 4:23 GMT-06:00 Martin Contel mailto:martin3d...@gmail.com>>:

Sad but true, Jacob... The worst thing is that Maya users
who have never tried something else don't know that the
grass was greener on the other side.

Saludetes!

--
Martin Contel
Square Enix (Visual Works)


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 7:18 PM, Jacob Gonzalez
mailto:jacobgo...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I had a very short expierence with Maya a while ago
(mainly driven by curiosity). It was to do with
rendering. It went something like this:

*Maya user*: I need to replace all the characters in
my scene because they are not referenced and there has
been topology, shader  changes (objects are called the
same)
*Me*: That's cool. Bring the new characters, match
Partitions and done :)
*Maya use*r:  . what?
*Me*: Match Render Layer Overrides ?
*Maya Use*r: not possible.
*Me *: Wow! what are you going to do.
*Maya User*: I will bring the characters one by one .
And character by character, render layer by render
layer, object by object I will re-assign all the
relevant overrides or changes made in  this and my
other 5 render scenes!
*Me*: Ok. Let me know when you are done with
this. You are staying late?


J




On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Sebastien Sterling
mailto:sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Apt analogy, but you omitted that each nest is
covered in bird shit :P


On 19 March 2014 09:54, Nick Angus
mailto:n...@altvfx.com>> wrote:

First rule of Maya: forget ergonomics, the
engine is powerful but the cockpit is a giant
birds nest constructed from thousands of tiny
birds nests.

Sent from my Windows Phone


From: Alastair Hearsum
<mailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk>
Sent: 19/03/2014 7:33 PM

To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
        <mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
    Subject: A confession

Folks

 Here is a confession. I've never used Maya!
Not really. I've had a little poke every now
and again but no more than make a sphere and
spin round it.

 Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish
the value of my comments in some eyes but I
think that , on the contrary, it puts me in
quite a good position to appraise the software
at a certain level. Here is an example of the
 

Re: A confession

[Cristobal Infante]

Ok, so besides all we can say about Maya, we can agree that the job
"MayaUser" was working on
was badly setup. Even in softimage it would be a bad idea not to reference
your assets.



On 19 March 2014 11:03, Siew Yi Liang  wrote:

>  Hi Cristobal:
>
> Not necessarily: you can actually reference render layers into scenes
> AFAIK, which is what I'm doing with my student film. Render layers
> themselves are buggier than a beehive, but by rendering via batch instead
> of through the GUI solves most of these issues. Well, mine, anyway. :P
>
> However, if referencing workflow wasn't followed at the start, then
> yea...might be difficult/tedious to swap/propogate across scene files after
> that. The good thing is that it IS still possible to script/automate the
> process across scenes, most renderLayer/layerOverride functions are still
> exposed via MEL (although some are not, which I'm finding out to my dismay,
> but most of the commands I want exposed to Python are quite esoteric so I
> doubt most people will need them), so it's not impossible to do so...just
> very annoying. :P
>
> Yours sincerely,
> Siew Yi Liang
>
> On 3/19/2014 3:41 AM, Cristobal Infante wrote:
>
> he probably meant 5 other shots right?
>
>
> On 19 March 2014 10:40, Cristobal Infante  wrote:
>
>> "my other 5 render scenes"
>>
>>  this was the bit that shocked my the most, do you still need to break
>> scene per passes?
>>
>>
>> On 19 March 2014 10:29, Emilio Hernandez  wrote:
>>
>>>  Ohh you really don't have to worry.  Maya has a single state of the
>>> art button solution!
>>>
>>>  Send to Softimage ->
>>>
>>>  ---
>>> Emilio Hernández   VFX & 3D animation.
>>>
>>>
>>> 2014-03-19 4:23 GMT-06:00 Martin Contel :
>>>
>>>  Sad but true, Jacob... The worst thing is that Maya users who have
>>>> never tried something else don't know that the grass was greener on the
>>>> other side.
>>>>
>>>>  Saludetes!
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>> Martin Contel
>>>> Square Enix (Visual Works)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 7:18 PM, Jacob Gonzalez 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I had a very short expierence with Maya a while ago (mainly driven by
>>>>> curiosity). It was to do with rendering. It went something like this:
>>>>>
>>>>>  *Maya user*: I need to replace all the characters in my scene
>>>>> because they are not referenced and there has been topology, shader
>>>>>  changes (objects are called the same)
>>>>> *Me*: That's cool. Bring the new characters, match Partitions and
>>>>> done :)
>>>>> *Maya use*r:  . what?
>>>>> *Me*: Match Render Layer Overrides ?
>>>>> *Maya Use*r: not possible.
>>>>> *Me *: Wow! what are you going to do.
>>>>> *Maya User*: I will bring the characters one by one . And character
>>>>> by character, render layer by render layer, object by object I will
>>>>> re-assign all the relevant overrides or changes made in  this and my other
>>>>> 5 render scenes!
>>>>> *Me*: Ok. Let me know when you are done with this. You are
>>>>> staying late?
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>  J
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Sebastien Sterling <
>>>>> sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Apt analogy, but you omitted that each nest is covered in bird shit :P
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  On 19 March 2014 09:54, Nick Angus  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   First rule of Maya: forget ergonomics, the engine is powerful but
>>>>>>> the cockpit is a giant birds nest constructed from thousands of tiny 
>>>>>>> birds
>>>>>>> nests.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my Windows Phone
>>>>>>>   --
>>>>>>> From: Alastair Hearsum 
>>>>>>> Sent: 19/03/2014 7:33 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>>>>>>> Subject: A confession
>>>>>

Re: A confession

[Jacob Gonzalez]

@ Cristobal

Yes, 5 other shots - No you don't have to split your shots into different
scenes (per pass) this days - is not that bad!

@ Neil

All I hear is how shit Maya is... surely it does some things well?

Agreed, I think Maya does have some good stuff. Ncloth is pretty good, and
although I don't like Maya's interface I love the fact that it's Qt based.
Very coo for integrating your custom layouts/toolbars.

But overall, I am of the opinion that moving to Maya from Soft means taking
a step back.

J


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Siew Yi Liang  wrote:

>  Hi Cristobal:
>
> Not necessarily: you can actually reference render layers into scenes
> AFAIK, which is what I'm doing with my student film. Render layers
> themselves are buggier than a beehive, but by rendering via batch instead
> of through the GUI solves most of these issues. Well, mine, anyway. :P
>
> However, if referencing workflow wasn't followed at the start, then
> yea...might be difficult/tedious to swap/propogate across scene files after
> that. The good thing is that it IS still possible to script/automate the
> process across scenes, most renderLayer/layerOverride functions are still
> exposed via MEL (although some are not, which I'm finding out to my dismay,
> but most of the commands I want exposed to Python are quite esoteric so I
> doubt most people will need them), so it's not impossible to do so...just
> very annoying. :P
>
> Yours sincerely,
> Siew Yi Liang
>
> On 3/19/2014 3:41 AM, Cristobal Infante wrote:
>
> he probably meant 5 other shots right?
>
>
> On 19 March 2014 10:40, Cristobal Infante  wrote:
>
>> "my other 5 render scenes"
>>
>>  this was the bit that shocked my the most, do you still need to break
>> scene per passes?
>>
>>
>> On 19 March 2014 10:29, Emilio Hernandez  wrote:
>>
>>>  Ohh you really don't have to worry.  Maya has a single state of the
>>> art button solution!
>>>
>>>  Send to Softimage ->
>>>
>>>  ---
>>> Emilio Hernández   VFX & 3D animation.
>>>
>>>
>>> 2014-03-19 4:23 GMT-06:00 Martin Contel :
>>>
>>>  Sad but true, Jacob... The worst thing is that Maya users who have
>>>> never tried something else don't know that the grass was greener on the
>>>> other side.
>>>>
>>>>  Saludetes!
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>> Martin Contel
>>>> Square Enix (Visual Works)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 7:18 PM, Jacob Gonzalez 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I had a very short expierence with Maya a while ago (mainly driven by
>>>>> curiosity). It was to do with rendering. It went something like this:
>>>>>
>>>>>  *Maya user*: I need to replace all the characters in my scene
>>>>> because they are not referenced and there has been topology, shader
>>>>>  changes (objects are called the same)
>>>>> *Me*: That's cool. Bring the new characters, match Partitions and
>>>>> done :)
>>>>> *Maya use*r:  . what?
>>>>> *Me*: Match Render Layer Overrides ?
>>>>> *Maya Use*r: not possible.
>>>>> *Me *: Wow! what are you going to do.
>>>>> *Maya User*: I will bring the characters one by one . And character
>>>>> by character, render layer by render layer, object by object I will
>>>>> re-assign all the relevant overrides or changes made in  this and my other
>>>>> 5 render scenes!
>>>>> *Me*: Ok. Let me know when you are done with this. You are
>>>>> staying late?
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>>  J
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Sebastien Sterling <
>>>>> sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Apt analogy, but you omitted that each nest is covered in bird shit :P
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  On 19 March 2014 09:54, Nick Angus  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   First rule of Maya: forget ergonomics, the engine is powerful but
>>>>>>> the cockpit is a giant birds nest constructed from thousands of tiny 
>>>>>>> birds
>>>>>>> nests.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sent from my 

Re: A confession

[Martin Yara]

You shouldn't rely too much on the outliners, they are nowhere near what SI
Explorer is. But if you must, and want to open multiple outliners ala
Softimage, you can do it with something like this:

// MEL
//-
window -t "Outliner" -wh 200 500;
frameLayout -labelVisible false;
string $panel = `outlinerPanel`;
showWindow;
//-

Yeah, you have to script a lot in Maya. Even for stupid things like this.

Knowing basic scripting in SI is very useful, but in Maya, not knowing
basic scripting may be critical.

Martin



On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Ivan Vasiljevic wrote:

> You should go with something more simpler for start:
>
> Try opening few outliners as you would often have few explorer opened in
> SI.
>

RE: A confession

[Graham Bell]

I've use both Maya and Softimage (XSI) for years, and the problem (imo) that 
many will make is that they're two different applications. You simply can't go 
into one and expect it to work in the same way to something else. This is no 
different to when jumping to Modo, Houdini, or Max.


From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Martin Yara
Sent: 19 March 2014 11:19
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: A confession

You shouldn't rely too much on the outliners, they are nowhere near what SI 
Explorer is. But if you must, and want to open multiple outliners ala 
Softimage, you can do it with something like this:

// MEL
//-
window -t "Outliner" -wh 200 500;
frameLayout -labelVisible false;
string $panel = `outlinerPanel`;
showWindow;
//-

Yeah, you have to script a lot in Maya. Even for stupid things like this.

Knowing basic scripting in SI is very useful, but in Maya, not knowing basic 
scripting may be critical.

Martin


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Ivan Vasiljevic 
mailto:klebed...@gmail.com>> wrote:
You should go with something more simpler for start:
Try opening few outliners as you would often have few explorer opened in SI.

<>

Re: A confession

[Jacob Gonzalez]

The point I was trying to make is that not having partitions makes
rendering in Maya much more difficult and less efficient than rendering in
XSI. This is one the features I am put off by when switching to Maya.

 Agreed,  different 3D applications behave in different manners, and so you
just need to change your way of working to adapt to it. Then it's not as
horrible as you thought it was at first.But in the case of partitions I
haven't come across any Maya user who had a workaround or method which was
even close to XSI's built in features. And I have worked 4 years on a Maya
/ XSI based post house.

J


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Graham Bell wrote:

> I've use both Maya and Softimage (XSI) for years, and the problem (imo)
> that many will make is that they're two different applications. You simply
> can't go into one and expect it to work in the same way to something else.
> This is no different to when jumping to Modo, Houdini, or Max.
>
>
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:
> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Martin Yara
> Sent: 19 March 2014 11:19
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Re: A confession
>
> You shouldn't rely too much on the outliners, they are nowhere near what
> SI Explorer is. But if you must, and want to open multiple outliners ala
> Softimage, you can do it with something like this:
>
> // MEL
> //-
> window -t "Outliner" -wh 200 500;
> frameLayout -labelVisible false;
> string $panel = `outlinerPanel`;
> showWindow;
> //-
>
> Yeah, you have to script a lot in Maya. Even for stupid things like this.
>
> Knowing basic scripting in SI is very useful, but in Maya, not knowing
> basic scripting may be critical.
>
> Martin
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Ivan Vasiljevic  <mailto:klebed...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> You should go with something more simpler for start:
> Try opening few outliners as you would often have few explorer opened in
> SI.
>
>

Re: A confession

[Peter Agg]

The way I see it, there are *things* that Maya is undoubtedly better at
than Soft (nCloth, muscles, fluid, the new modelling tools etc), it's just
the way it's all put together that's terrible. I never have many issues if
I have to jump into one of the many black boxes that's been shoved into the
system, but it makes me very glad that I'm not the generalist that has to
pull it all together!

There is some truth in 3D program relativism, and we'd all do well to
remember that when we jump into whatever package we find ourselves in. But
the annoyance I find when I try to use Modo/Houdini is a very different
beast to the frustration of using an out-of-the-box Maya.


On 19 March 2014 11:42, Jacob Gonzalez  wrote:

> The point I was trying to make is that not having partitions makes
> rendering in Maya much more difficult and less efficient than rendering in
> XSI. This is one the features I am put off by when switching to Maya.
>
>  Agreed,  different 3D applications behave in different manners, and so
> you just need to change your way of working to adapt to it. Then it's not
> as horrible as you thought it was at first.But in the case of partitions I
> haven't come across any Maya user who had a workaround or method which was
> even close to XSI's built in features. And I have worked 4 years on a Maya
> / XSI based post house.
>
> J
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Graham Bell wrote:
>
>> I've use both Maya and Softimage (XSI) for years, and the problem (imo)
>> that many will make is that they're two different applications. You simply
>> can't go into one and expect it to work in the same way to something else.
>> This is no different to when jumping to Modo, Houdini, or Max.
>>
>>
>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:
>> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Martin Yara
>> Sent: 19 March 2014 11:19
>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>> Subject: Re: A confession
>>
>> You shouldn't rely too much on the outliners, they are nowhere near what
>> SI Explorer is. But if you must, and want to open multiple outliners ala
>> Softimage, you can do it with something like this:
>>
>> // MEL
>> //-
>> window -t "Outliner" -wh 200 500;
>> frameLayout -labelVisible false;
>> string $panel = `outlinerPanel`;
>> showWindow;
>> //-
>>
>> Yeah, you have to script a lot in Maya. Even for stupid things like this.
>>
>> Knowing basic scripting in SI is very useful, but in Maya, not knowing
>> basic scripting may be critical.
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Ivan Vasiljevic > <mailto:klebed...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> You should go with something more simpler for start:
>> Try opening few outliners as you would often have few explorer opened in
>> SI.
>>
>>
>

RE: A confession

[Graham Bell]

Maya has 'contribution maps' that you can create on layers, which are kinda the 
same as Soft's partitions. I'm not saying they're better (and I don't want to 
get into a debate) but that's the equivalent.

From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Jacob Gonzalez
Sent: 19 March 2014 11:43
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: A confession

The point I was trying to make is that not having partitions makes rendering in 
Maya much more difficult and less efficient than rendering in XSI. This is one 
the features I am put off by when switching to Maya.

 Agreed,  different 3D applications behave in different manners, and so you 
just need to change your way of working to adapt to it. Then it's not as 
horrible as you thought it was at first.But in the case of partitions I haven't 
come across any Maya user who had a workaround or method which was even close 
to XSI's built in features. And I have worked 4 years on a Maya / XSI based 
post house.

J

On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Graham Bell 
mailto:graham.b...@autodesk.com>> wrote:
I've use both Maya and Softimage (XSI) for years, and the problem (imo) that 
many will make is that they're two different applications. You simply can't go 
into one and expect it to work in the same way to something else. This is no 
different to when jumping to Modo, Houdini, or Max.


From: 
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>
 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>]
 On Behalf Of Martin Yara
Sent: 19 March 2014 11:19
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Re: A confession
You shouldn't rely too much on the outliners, they are nowhere near what SI 
Explorer is. But if you must, and want to open multiple outliners ala 
Softimage, you can do it with something like this:

// MEL
//-
window -t "Outliner" -wh 200 500;
frameLayout -labelVisible false;
string $panel = `outlinerPanel`;
showWindow;
//-

Yeah, you have to script a lot in Maya. Even for stupid things like this.

Knowing basic scripting in SI is very useful, but in Maya, not knowing basic 
scripting may be critical.

Martin

On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Ivan Vasiljevic 
mailto:klebed...@gmail.com><mailto:klebed...@gmail.com<mailto:klebed...@gmail.com>>>
 wrote:
You should go with something more simpler for start:
Try opening few outliners as you would often have few explorer opened in SI.

<>

Re: A confession

[Alastair Hearsum]

Graham

I think its disingenuous to ascribe the difficulties people have in 
doing things in Maya only to the workflow being different. It was simple 
example I gave and I would have hoped that it would have highlighted the 
Maya workflow as being, dare I say, bad. I hope you don't mind the 
analogy here but the first step to an alcoholics recovery is admitting 
the problem. Marc Stevens went as far as he could in the webinar in 
conceding that there may be qualitative differences in the 
Maya/Softimage interface workflow scenario and that it is something that 
you are looking at


So yes, different, but lets not shy away from calling a spade a spade.

Alastair


Alastair Hearsum
Head of 3d
GLASSWORKS
33/34 Great Pulteney Street
London
W1F 9NP
+44 (0)20 7434 1182
glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
(Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 
25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)

Please consider the environment before you print this email.
DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private 
and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). 
Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do 
not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the 
intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in 
error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying 
of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received 
in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message 
from your system.

On 19/03/2014 11:31, Graham Bell wrote:

I've use both Maya and Softimage (XSI) for years, and the problem (imo) that 
many will make is that they're two different applications. You simply can't go 
into one and expect it to work in the same way to something else. This is no 
different to when jumping to Modo, Houdini, or Max.


From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Martin Yara
Sent: 19 March 2014 11:19
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: A confession

You shouldn't rely too much on the outliners, they are nowhere near what SI 
Explorer is. But if you must, and want to open multiple outliners ala 
Softimage, you can do it with something like this:

// MEL
//-
window -t "Outliner" -wh 200 500;
frameLayout -labelVisible false;
string $panel = `outlinerPanel`;
showWindow;
//-

Yeah, you have to script a lot in Maya. Even for stupid things like this.

Knowing basic scripting in SI is very useful, but in Maya, not knowing basic 
scripting may be critical.

Martin


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Ivan Vasiljevic 
mailto:klebed...@gmail.com>> wrote:
You should go with something more simpler for start:
Try opening few outliners as you would often have few explorer opened in SI.

RE: A confession

[Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES]]

NURBS

--
Joey Ponthieux
LaRC Information Technology Enhanced Services (LITES)
Mymic Technical Services
NASA Langley Research Center
__
Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not
represent the opinions of NASA or any other party.

From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Peter Agg
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 7:55 AM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: A confession

The way I see it, there are *things* that Maya is undoubtedly better at than 
Soft (nCloth, muscles, fluid, the new modelling tools etc),

RE: A confession

[Graham Bell]

I'm not being disingenuous at all, only that this is a common problem when 
people jump from one software to another. I've seen this many times from users 
where they start in another package and try to do the exact same workflow, only 
to then become frustrated.

You can't jump to something else and expect it to work in the same way, you 
simply can't. It's a recipe for disaster. And it's all too easy to label 
something as being bad.
I'm not saying that Maya's workflow is superior either. There are things I like 
and hate about Maya, but you could also say the same about Softimage and any 
software package to be fair.
I think it was Luc-Eric who said in a previous post that apps have their set of 
compromises, which we essentially accept.

Chris has mention on work starting to improve Maya's UI and I welcome that. And 
if there some Softimage goodness in there, then I welcome that too.


From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Alastair Hearsum
Sent: 19 March 2014 12:45
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: A confession

Graham

I think its disingenuous to ascribe the difficulties people have in doing 
things in Maya only to the workflow being different. It was simple example I 
gave and I would have hoped that it would have highlighted the Maya workflow as 
being, dare I say, bad. I hope you don't mind the analogy here but the first 
step to an alcoholics recovery is admitting the problem. Marc Stevens went as 
far as he could in the webinar in conceding that there may be qualitative 
differences in the Maya/Softimage interface workflow scenario and that it is 
something that you are looking at

So yes, different, but lets not shy away from calling a spade a spade.

Alastair

Alastair Hearsum
Head of 3d
[GLASSWORKS]
33/34 Great Pulteney Street
London
W1F 9NP
+44 (0)20 7434 1182
glassworks.co.uk<http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
(Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 
Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
Please consider the environment before you print this email.
DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and 
confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or 
opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily 
represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be 
advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, 
dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly 
prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it 
to the sender and delete this message from your system.
On 19/03/2014 11:31, Graham Bell wrote:

I've use both Maya and Softimage (XSI) for years, and the problem (imo) that 
many will make is that they're two different applications. You simply can't go 
into one and expect it to work in the same way to something else. This is no 
different to when jumping to Modo, Houdini, or Max.





From: 
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>
 [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Martin Yara

Sent: 19 March 2014 11:19

To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>

Subject: Re: A confession



You shouldn't rely too much on the outliners, they are nowhere near what SI 
Explorer is. But if you must, and want to open multiple outliners ala 
Softimage, you can do it with something like this:



// MEL

//-

window -t "Outliner" -wh 200 500;

frameLayout -labelVisible false;

string $panel = `outlinerPanel`;

showWindow;

//-



Yeah, you have to script a lot in Maya. Even for stupid things like this.



Knowing basic scripting in SI is very useful, but in Maya, not knowing basic 
scripting may be critical.



Martin





On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Ivan Vasiljevic 
mailto:klebed...@gmail.com><mailto:klebed...@gmail.com><mailto:klebed...@gmail.com>>
 wrote:

You should go with something more simpler for start:

Try opening few outliners as you would often have few explorer opened in SI.



<>

Re: A confession

[Juan Brockhaus]

I think the main frustration comes from actually not been able to do
certain things. not just to learn where the buttons are.
when shake was 'killed' by apple there was already Nuke around and showed
potential.
It was difficult to jump from shake to nuke having used shake for years and
muscle memory was already build up.
BUT, I could do EVERYTHING I was doing in shake and MUCH more. and then
more and more!

if it would be just about modelling, rigging, animation and some rendering,
I agree. Learn where the buttons are and you will be able to get to the
same level.
at the end of the day YOU are the talent, not the software.

but the problem starts, when you are NOT able to do what you were doing
before. regardless where the buttons are.
and ICE is such a thing... just not possible in any other software (except
Houdini)
That's at least for me where my frustration comes from.


anyway, back to do some ICE work...
;-)





On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 1:25 PM, Graham Bell wrote:

> I'm not being disingenuous at all, only that this is a common problem when
> people jump from one software to another. I've seen this many times from
> users where they start in another package and try to do the exact same
> workflow, only to then become frustrated.
>
> You can't jump to something else and expect it to work in the same way,
> you simply can't. It's a recipe for disaster. And it's all too easy to
> label something as being bad.
> I'm not saying that Maya's workflow is superior either. There are things I
> like and hate about Maya, but you could also say the same about Softimage
> and any software package to be fair.
> I think it was Luc-Eric who said in a previous post that apps have their
> set of compromises, which we essentially accept.
>
> Chris has mention on work starting to improve Maya's UI and I welcome
> that. And if there some Softimage goodness in there, then I welcome that
> too.
>
>
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:
> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Alastair Hearsum
> Sent: 19 March 2014 12:45
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Re: A confession
>
> Graham
>
> I think its disingenuous to ascribe the difficulties people have in doing
> things in Maya only to the workflow being different. It was simple example
> I gave and I would have hoped that it would have highlighted the Maya
> workflow as being, dare I say, bad. I hope you don't mind the analogy here
> but the first step to an alcoholics recovery is admitting the problem. Marc
> Stevens went as far as he could in the webinar in conceding that there may
> be qualitative differences in the Maya/Softimage interface workflow
> scenario and that it is something that you are looking at
>
> So yes, different, but lets not shy away from calling a spade a spade.
>
> Alastair
>
> Alastair Hearsum
> Head of 3d
> [GLASSWORKS]
> 33/34 Great Pulteney Street
> London
> W1F 9NP
> +44 (0)20 7434 1182
> glassworks.co.uk<http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
> Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
> (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25
> Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
> Please consider the environment before you print this email.
> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private
> and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any
> views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not
> necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended
> recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that
> any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is
> strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please
> kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system.
> On 19/03/2014 11:31, Graham Bell wrote:
>
> I've use both Maya and Softimage (XSI) for years, and the problem (imo)
> that many will make is that they're two different applications. You simply
> can't go into one and expect it to work in the same way to something else.
> This is no different to when jumping to Modo, Houdini, or Max.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com> [mailto:
> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Martin Yara
>
> Sent: 19 March 2014 11:19
>
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> >
>
> Subject: Re: A confession
>
>
>
> You shouldn't rely too much on the outliners, they are nowhere near what
> SI Explorer is. But if you 

Re: A confession

[Paul Griswold]

While I agree with what you're saying Graham, you're not seeing it in light
of current circumstances.

Your argument holds weight if we were choosing to pick different software
and learn it.  I faced this when switching from Lightwave to Softimage back
with XSI 4.  I couldn't translate the LW way of doing things to Softimage
and it was frustrating.  But it was my CHOICE.

Softimage users are being FORCED to move to another package because their
chosen platform has been murdered by Autodesk.

Since Maurice has made it fairly clear this was the plan for quite a while
now, it is not unreasonable to have expected Autodesk to create as
seamless, effortless, and easy transition as possible for us to move to
Maya (or Max).  But nothing like that has happened.  There's no "plan" at
all.

There's no replacement for ICE, there's no "Softimage" environment or
keymaps, there's no series of transition videos, nothing at all.

Autodesk is the boss from Reservoir Dogs, "It's my way or the highway!".

-Paul




On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:25 AM, Graham Bell wrote:

> I'm not being disingenuous at all, only that this is a common problem when
> people jump from one software to another. I've seen this many times from
> users where they start in another package and try to do the exact same
> workflow, only to then become frustrated.
>
> You can't jump to something else and expect it to work in the same way,
> you simply can't. It's a recipe for disaster. And it's all too easy to
> label something as being bad.
> I'm not saying that Maya's workflow is superior either. There are things I
> like and hate about Maya, but you could also say the same about Softimage
> and any software package to be fair.
> I think it was Luc-Eric who said in a previous post that apps have their
> set of compromises, which we essentially accept.
>
> Chris has mention on work starting to improve Maya's UI and I welcome
> that. And if there some Softimage goodness in there, then I welcome that
> too.
>
>
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:
> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Alastair Hearsum
> Sent: 19 March 2014 12:45
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Re: A confession
>
> Graham
>
> I think its disingenuous to ascribe the difficulties people have in doing
> things in Maya only to the workflow being different. It was simple example
> I gave and I would have hoped that it would have highlighted the Maya
> workflow as being, dare I say, bad. I hope you don't mind the analogy here
> but the first step to an alcoholics recovery is admitting the problem. Marc
> Stevens went as far as he could in the webinar in conceding that there may
> be qualitative differences in the Maya/Softimage interface workflow
> scenario and that it is something that you are looking at
>
> So yes, different, but lets not shy away from calling a spade a spade.
>
> Alastair
>
> Alastair Hearsum
> Head of 3d
> [GLASSWORKS]
> 33/34 Great Pulteney Street
> London
> W1F 9NP
> +44 (0)20 7434 1182
> glassworks.co.uk<http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
> Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
> (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25
> Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
> Please consider the environment before you print this email.
> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private
> and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any
> views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not
> necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended
> recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that
> any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is
> strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please
> kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system.
> On 19/03/2014 11:31, Graham Bell wrote:
>
> I've use both Maya and Softimage (XSI) for years, and the problem (imo)
> that many will make is that they're two different applications. You simply
> can't go into one and expect it to work in the same way to something else.
> This is no different to when jumping to Modo, Houdini, or Max.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com> [mailto:
> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Martin Yara
>
> Sent: 19 March 2014 11:19
>
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> >
>
> Subject: Re: 

Re: A confession

[Alastair Hearsum]

Graham

Sorry , I just can't accept that. We have very experienced people here 
who have used Maya a lot in production. I trust them implicitly. They 
produce some of our best work. They are not raving newbies and have 
shown repeatedly their willingness and ability to embrace new technology 
and workflows. Its not only from my lack of experience that I have 
formed my opinions. I'll say it again, Maya's interface and general 
workflow leaves a lot to be desired. If you want to listen and you have 
a genuine desire to improve Maya, this what we are saying.


Alastair


Alastair Hearsum
Head of 3d
GLASSWORKS
33/34 Great Pulteney Street
London
W1F 9NP
+44 (0)20 7434 1182
glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
(Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 
25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)

Please consider the environment before you print this email.
DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private 
and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). 
Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do 
not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the 
intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in 
error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying 
of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received 
in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message 
from your system.

On 19/03/2014 13:25, Graham Bell wrote:

I'm not being disingenuous at all, only that this is a common problem when 
people jump from one software to another. I've seen this many times from users 
where they start in another package and try to do the exact same workflow, only 
to then become frustrated.

You can't jump to something else and expect it to work in the same way, you 
simply can't. It's a recipe for disaster. And it's all too easy to label 
something as being bad.
I'm not saying that Maya's workflow is superior either. There are things I like 
and hate about Maya, but you could also say the same about Softimage and any 
software package to be fair.
I think it was Luc-Eric who said in a previous post that apps have their set of 
compromises, which we essentially accept.

Chris has mention on work starting to improve Maya's UI and I welcome that. And 
if there some Softimage goodness in there, then I welcome that too.


From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Alastair Hearsum
Sent: 19 March 2014 12:45
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: A confession

Graham

I think its disingenuous to ascribe the difficulties people have in doing 
things in Maya only to the workflow being different. It was simple example I 
gave and I would have hoped that it would have highlighted the Maya workflow as 
being, dare I say, bad. I hope you don't mind the analogy here but the first 
step to an alcoholics recovery is admitting the problem. Marc Stevens went as 
far as he could in the webinar in conceding that there may be qualitative 
differences in the Maya/Softimage interface workflow scenario and that it is 
something that you are looking at

So yes, different, but lets not shy away from calling a spade a spade.

Alastair

Alastair Hearsum
Head of 3d
[GLASSWORKS]
33/34 Great Pulteney Street
London
W1F 9NP
+44 (0)20 7434 1182
glassworks.co.uk<http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
(Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 
Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
Please consider the environment before you print this email.
DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and 
confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or 
opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily 
represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be 
advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, 
dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly 
prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it 
to the sender and delete this message from your system.
On 19/03/2014 11:31, Graham Bell wrote:

I've use both Maya and Softimage (XSI) for years, and the problem (imo) that 
many will make is that they're two different applications. You simply can't go 
into one and expect it to work in the same way to something else. This is no 
different to when jumping to Modo, Houdini, or Max.





From: 
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>
 [mailto:softimage

Re: A confession

[Gaël Honorez]

We are using maya here for a dozen of years, but we are still trying to 
run away from it on every occasion possible.


Today, we read the what's new page for maya 2015.

"Maya 2015 addresses at least 30 workflow obstacles identified as high 
priority by customers".


That sentence make us laugh during all launch break. I don't know what 
customers you asked, but I can tell you 30 workflow problems in the 
color picker alone.


I just hope you forgot a 0 somewhere.



On 19/03/2014 14:25, Graham Bell wrote:

I'm not being disingenuous at all, only that this is a common problem when 
people jump from one software to another. I've seen this many times from users 
where they start in another package and try to do the exact same workflow, only 
to then become frustrated.

You can't jump to something else and expect it to work in the same way, you 
simply can't. It's a recipe for disaster. And it's all too easy to label 
something as being bad.
I'm not saying that Maya's workflow is superior either. There are things I like 
and hate about Maya, but you could also say the same about Softimage and any 
software package to be fair.
I think it was Luc-Eric who said in a previous post that apps have their set of 
compromises, which we essentially accept.

Chris has mention on work starting to improve Maya's UI and I welcome that. And 
if there some Softimage goodness in there, then I welcome that too.


From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Alastair Hearsum
Sent: 19 March 2014 12:45
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: A confession

Graham

I think its disingenuous to ascribe the difficulties people have in doing 
things in Maya only to the workflow being different. It was simple example I 
gave and I would have hoped that it would have highlighted the Maya workflow as 
being, dare I say, bad. I hope you don't mind the analogy here but the first 
step to an alcoholics recovery is admitting the problem. Marc Stevens went as 
far as he could in the webinar in conceding that there may be qualitative 
differences in the Maya/Softimage interface workflow scenario and that it is 
something that you are looking at

So yes, different, but lets not shy away from calling a spade a spade.

Alastair

Alastair Hearsum
Head of 3d
[GLASSWORKS]
33/34 Great Pulteney Street
London
W1F 9NP
+44 (0)20 7434 1182
glassworks.co.uk<http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
(Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 
Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
Please consider the environment before you print this email.
DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and 
confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or 
opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily 
represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be 
advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, 
dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly 
prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it 
to the sender and delete this message from your system.
On 19/03/2014 11:31, Graham Bell wrote:

I've use both Maya and Softimage (XSI) for years, and the problem (imo) that 
many will make is that they're two different applications. You simply can't go 
into one and expect it to work in the same way to something else. This is no 
different to when jumping to Modo, Houdini, or Max.





From: 
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>
 [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Martin Yara

Sent: 19 March 2014 11:19

To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>

Subject: Re: A confession



You shouldn't rely too much on the outliners, they are nowhere near what SI 
Explorer is. But if you must, and want to open multiple outliners ala 
Softimage, you can do it with something like this:



// MEL

//-

window -t "Outliner" -wh 200 500;

frameLayout -labelVisible false;

string $panel = `outlinerPanel`;

showWindow;

//-



Yeah, you have to script a lot in Maya. Even for stupid things like this.



Knowing basic scripting in SI is very useful, but in Maya, not knowing basic 
scripting may be critical.



Martin





On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Ivan Vasiljevic 
mailto:klebed...@gmail.com><mailto:klebed...@gmail.com><mailto:klebed...@gmail.com>>
 wrote:

You should go with something more simpler for start:

Try opening few outliners as you would often have few explorer opened in SI.

Re: A confession

[Perry Harovas]

Maya = WorkDrip
Softimage = WorkFlow




On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Gaël Honorez  wrote:

> We are using maya here for a dozen of years, but we are still trying to
> run away from it on every occasion possible.
>
> Today, we read the what's new page for maya 2015.
>
> "Maya 2015 addresses at least 30 workflow obstacles identified as high
> priority by customers".
>
> That sentence make us laugh during all launch break. I don't know what
> customers you asked, but I can tell you 30 workflow problems in the color
> picker alone.
>
> I just hope you forgot a 0 somewhere.
>
>
>
>
> On 19/03/2014 14:25, Graham Bell wrote:
>
>> I'm not being disingenuous at all, only that this is a common problem
>> when people jump from one software to another. I've seen this many times
>> from users where they start in another package and try to do the exact same
>> workflow, only to then become frustrated.
>>
>> You can't jump to something else and expect it to work in the same way,
>> you simply can't. It's a recipe for disaster. And it's all too easy to
>> label something as being bad.
>> I'm not saying that Maya's workflow is superior either. There are things
>> I like and hate about Maya, but you could also say the same about Softimage
>> and any software package to be fair.
>> I think it was Luc-Eric who said in a previous post that apps have their
>> set of compromises, which we essentially accept.
>>
>> Chris has mention on work starting to improve Maya's UI and I welcome
>> that. And if there some Softimage goodness in there, then I welcome that
>> too.
>>
>>
>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-bounces@
>> listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Alastair Hearsum
>> Sent: 19 March 2014 12:45
>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>> Subject: Re: A confession
>>
>> Graham
>>
>> I think its disingenuous to ascribe the difficulties people have in doing
>> things in Maya only to the workflow being different. It was simple example
>> I gave and I would have hoped that it would have highlighted the Maya
>> workflow as being, dare I say, bad. I hope you don't mind the analogy here
>> but the first step to an alcoholics recovery is admitting the problem. Marc
>> Stevens went as far as he could in the webinar in conceding that there may
>> be qualitative differences in the Maya/Softimage interface workflow
>> scenario and that it is something that you are looking at
>>
>> So yes, different, but lets not shy away from calling a spade a spade.
>>
>> Alastair
>>
>> Alastair Hearsum
>> Head of 3d
>> [GLASSWORKS]
>> 33/34 Great Pulteney Street
>> London
>> W1F 9NP
>> +44 (0)20 7434 1182
>> glassworks.co.uk<http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
>> Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
>> (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25
>> Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
>> Please consider the environment before you print this email.
>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private
>> and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any
>> views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not
>> necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended
>> recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that
>> any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is
>> strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please
>> kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system.
>> On 19/03/2014 11:31, Graham Bell wrote:
>>
>> I've use both Maya and Softimage (XSI) for years, and the problem (imo)
>> that many will make is that they're two different applications. You simply
>> can't go into one and expect it to work in the same way to something else.
>> This is no different to when jumping to Modo, Houdini, or Max.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-
>> boun...@listproc.autodesk.com> [mailto:softimage-bounces@
>> listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Martin Yara
>>
>> Sent: 19 March 2014 11:19
>>
>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.
>> autodesk.com>
>>
>> Subject: Re: A confession
>>
>>
>>
>> You shouldn't rely too much on the outli

Re: A confession

[Christian Lattuada]

+

.:.
Christian Lattuada

tel +39 3331277475
...


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 3:08 PM, Perry Harovas wrote:

> Maya = WorkDrip
> Softimage = WorkFlow
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Gaël Honorez  wrote:
>
>> We are using maya here for a dozen of years, but we are still trying to
>> run away from it on every occasion possible.
>>
>> Today, we read the what's new page for maya 2015.
>>
>> "Maya 2015 addresses at least 30 workflow obstacles identified as high
>> priority by customers".
>>
>> That sentence make us laugh during all launch break. I don't know what
>> customers you asked, but I can tell you 30 workflow problems in the color
>> picker alone.
>>
>> I just hope you forgot a 0 somewhere.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 19/03/2014 14:25, Graham Bell wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not being disingenuous at all, only that this is a common problem
>>> when people jump from one software to another. I've seen this many times
>>> from users where they start in another package and try to do the exact same
>>> workflow, only to then become frustrated.
>>>
>>> You can't jump to something else and expect it to work in the same way,
>>> you simply can't. It's a recipe for disaster. And it's all too easy to
>>> label something as being bad.
>>> I'm not saying that Maya's workflow is superior either. There are things
>>> I like and hate about Maya, but you could also say the same about Softimage
>>> and any software package to be fair.
>>> I think it was Luc-Eric who said in a previous post that apps have their
>>> set of compromises, which we essentially accept.
>>>
>>> Chris has mention on work starting to improve Maya's UI and I welcome
>>> that. And if there some Softimage goodness in there, then I welcome that
>>> too.
>>>
>>>
>>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-bounces@
>>> listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Alastair Hearsum
>>> Sent: 19 March 2014 12:45
>>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>>> Subject: Re: A confession
>>>
>>> Graham
>>>
>>> I think its disingenuous to ascribe the difficulties people have in
>>> doing things in Maya only to the workflow being different. It was simple
>>> example I gave and I would have hoped that it would have highlighted the
>>> Maya workflow as being, dare I say, bad. I hope you don't mind the analogy
>>> here but the first step to an alcoholics recovery is admitting the problem.
>>> Marc Stevens went as far as he could in the webinar in conceding that there
>>> may be qualitative differences in the Maya/Softimage interface workflow
>>> scenario and that it is something that you are looking at
>>>
>>> So yes, different, but lets not shy away from calling a spade a spade.
>>>
>>> Alastair
>>>
>>> Alastair Hearsum
>>> Head of 3d
>>> [GLASSWORKS]
>>> 33/34 Great Pulteney Street
>>> London
>>> W1F 9NP
>>> +44 (0)20 7434 1182
>>> glassworks.co.uk<http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
>>> Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
>>> (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office
>>> 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
>>> Please consider the environment before you print this email.
>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private
>>> and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any
>>> views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not
>>> necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended
>>> recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that
>>> any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is
>>> strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please
>>> kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system.
>>> On 19/03/2014 11:31, Graham Bell wrote:
>>>
>>> I've use both Maya and Softimage (XSI) for years, and the problem (imo)
>>> that many will make is that they're two different applications. You simply
>>> can't go into one and expect it to work in the same way to something else.
>>> This is no different to when jump

Re: A confession

[Jacob Gonzalez]

Hi Graham

Apart from a shot experience using Maya I also did the same with Houdini.
And again i was rendering. With Houdini I was frustrated the first few days
as I felt I could do things quicker in Soft. But it was much more
interesting than Maya since I could see the potential. After 3 weeks
rendering with houdini I was actually quite happy about it. It's flexible,
powerful and let's the artist enjoy a rendering workflow. My experience
with Maya was totally the opposite.

I don't have a massive experience with either Houdini or Maya, just a short
one. But I am very experienced with Soft and I now what it works for me and
what it doesnt.

If AD makes rendering in Maya as nice as in XSI, takes ICE into Maya,
etc. I would be very happy, sincemost likely I will be switching to
Maya -  but I doubt they will.

J


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Perry Harovas wrote:

> Maya = WorkDrip
> Softimage = WorkFlow
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Gaël Honorez  wrote:
>
>> We are using maya here for a dozen of years, but we are still trying to
>> run away from it on every occasion possible.
>>
>> Today, we read the what's new page for maya 2015.
>>
>> "Maya 2015 addresses at least 30 workflow obstacles identified as high
>> priority by customers".
>>
>> That sentence make us laugh during all launch break. I don't know what
>> customers you asked, but I can tell you 30 workflow problems in the color
>> picker alone.
>>
>> I just hope you forgot a 0 somewhere.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 19/03/2014 14:25, Graham Bell wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not being disingenuous at all, only that this is a common problem
>>> when people jump from one software to another. I've seen this many times
>>> from users where they start in another package and try to do the exact same
>>> workflow, only to then become frustrated.
>>>
>>> You can't jump to something else and expect it to work in the same way,
>>> you simply can't. It's a recipe for disaster. And it's all too easy to
>>> label something as being bad.
>>> I'm not saying that Maya's workflow is superior either. There are things
>>> I like and hate about Maya, but you could also say the same about Softimage
>>> and any software package to be fair.
>>> I think it was Luc-Eric who said in a previous post that apps have their
>>> set of compromises, which we essentially accept.
>>>
>>> Chris has mention on work starting to improve Maya's UI and I welcome
>>> that. And if there some Softimage goodness in there, then I welcome that
>>> too.
>>>
>>>
>>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-bounces@
>>> listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Alastair Hearsum
>>> Sent: 19 March 2014 12:45
>>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>>> Subject: Re: A confession
>>>
>>> Graham
>>>
>>> I think its disingenuous to ascribe the difficulties people have in
>>> doing things in Maya only to the workflow being different. It was simple
>>> example I gave and I would have hoped that it would have highlighted the
>>> Maya workflow as being, dare I say, bad. I hope you don't mind the analogy
>>> here but the first step to an alcoholics recovery is admitting the problem.
>>> Marc Stevens went as far as he could in the webinar in conceding that there
>>> may be qualitative differences in the Maya/Softimage interface workflow
>>> scenario and that it is something that you are looking at
>>>
>>> So yes, different, but lets not shy away from calling a spade a spade.
>>>
>>> Alastair
>>>
>>> Alastair Hearsum
>>> Head of 3d
>>> [GLASSWORKS]
>>> 33/34 Great Pulteney Street
>>> London
>>> W1F 9NP
>>> +44 (0)20 7434 1182
>>> glassworks.co.uk<http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
>>> Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
>>> (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office
>>> 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
>>> Please consider the environment before you print this email.
>>> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private
>>> and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any
>>> views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not
>>> necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended
>>>

RE: A confession

[Graham Bell]

I totally agree.

I'm not defending Maya as some kind of perfection, far from it. But at the same 
time, I don't accept that Maya's UI and workflow is 'totally' crap. I actually 
like various bits of Maya, but are there big chunks of it that need addressing? 
You betcha. And I'm all for change and I'd love to have Softs rendering 
'system' in Maya, but I would also echo what Marc Stevens said in that I 
wouldn't perhaps copy/paste a feature, but take the best and build something 
new.

G

From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Jacob Gonzalez
Sent: 19 March 2014 14:28
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: A confession

Hi Graham

Apart from a shot experience using Maya I also did the same with Houdini. And 
again i was rendering. With Houdini I was frustrated the first few days as I 
felt I could do things quicker in Soft. But it was much more interesting than 
Maya since I could see the potential. After 3 weeks rendering with houdini I 
was actually quite happy about it. It's flexible, powerful and let's the artist 
enjoy a rendering workflow. My experience with Maya was totally the opposite.

I don't have a massive experience with either Houdini or Maya, just a short 
one. But I am very experienced with Soft and I now what it works for me and 
what it doesnt.

If AD makes rendering in Maya as nice as in XSI, takes ICE into Maya, etc. 
I would be very happy, sincemost likely I will be switching to Maya -  but I 
doubt they will.

J

On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Perry Harovas 
mailto:perryharo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Maya = WorkDrip
Softimage = WorkFlow



On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Gaël Honorez 
mailto:g...@nozon.com>> wrote:
We are using maya here for a dozen of years, but we are still trying to run 
away from it on every occasion possible.

Today, we read the what's new page for maya 2015.

"Maya 2015 addresses at least 30 workflow obstacles identified as high priority 
by customers".

That sentence make us laugh during all launch break. I don't know what 
customers you asked, but I can tell you 30 workflow problems in the color 
picker alone.

I just hope you forgot a 0 somewhere.




On 19/03/2014 14:25, Graham Bell wrote:
I'm not being disingenuous at all, only that this is a common problem when 
people jump from one software to another. I've seen this many times from users 
where they start in another package and try to do the exact same workflow, only 
to then become frustrated.

You can't jump to something else and expect it to work in the same way, you 
simply can't. It's a recipe for disaster. And it's all too easy to label 
something as being bad.
I'm not saying that Maya's workflow is superior either. There are things I like 
and hate about Maya, but you could also say the same about Softimage and any 
software package to be fair.
I think it was Luc-Eric who said in a previous post that apps have their set of 
compromises, which we essentially accept.

Chris has mention on work starting to improve Maya's UI and I welcome that. And 
if there some Softimage goodness in there, then I welcome that too.


From: 
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>
 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>]
 On Behalf Of Alastair Hearsum
Sent: 19 March 2014 12:45
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Re: A confession

Graham

I think its disingenuous to ascribe the difficulties people have in doing 
things in Maya only to the workflow being different. It was simple example I 
gave and I would have hoped that it would have highlighted the Maya workflow as 
being, dare I say, bad. I hope you don't mind the analogy here but the first 
step to an alcoholics recovery is admitting the problem. Marc Stevens went as 
far as he could in the webinar in conceding that there may be qualitative 
differences in the Maya/Softimage interface workflow scenario and that it is 
something that you are looking at

So yes, different, but lets not shy away from calling a spade a spade.

Alastair

Alastair Hearsum
Head of 3d
[GLASSWORKS]
33/34 Great Pulteney Street
London
W1F 9NP
+44 (0)20 7434 1182
glassworks.co.uk<http://glassworks.co.uk><http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at 
glassworks.co.uk<http://glassworks.co.uk>
(Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 
Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
Please consider the environment before you print this email.
DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and 
confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). A

Re: A confession

[Luc-Eric Rousseau]

None of these products are for newbies; we spent years learning Softimage.
Sounds like you wanted to edit a history node, doing a procedural
modification. You'd open the node editor or try the input section of the
channel box. This is a first days stuff. We would probably not have had a
render tree in XSI if we had focused on simplicity over power. And
certainly not Ice. God you have to guess node name and search for them, are
you kidding me. Even with classic simulation it's not always obvious to
know what to select and when to call menu. There is all sort of stuff we
just learn - the measure of usability is how well you can do more complex
stuff once you know the basics
On Mar 19, 2014 9:55 AM, "Alastair Hearsum" 
wrote:

>  Graham
>
> Sorry , I just can't accept that. We have very experienced people here who
> have used Maya a lot in production. I trust them implicitly. They produce
> some of our best work. They are not raving newbies and have shown
> repeatedly their willingness and ability to embrace new technology and
> workflows. Its not only from my lack of experience that I have formed my
> opinions. I'll say it again, Maya's interface and general workflow leaves a
> lot to be desired. If you want to listen and you have a genuine desire to
> improve Maya, this what we are saying.
>
> Alastair
>
>
>  Alastair Hearsum
>  Head of 3d
> [image: GLASSWORKS]
>  33/34 Great Pulteney Street
> London
> W1F 9NP
> +44 (0)20 7434 1182
> glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
>  Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
>  (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25
> Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
>  Please consider the environment before you print this email.
>  DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private
> and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any
> views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not
> necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended
> recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that
> any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is
> strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please
> kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system.
>  On 19/03/2014 13:25, Graham Bell wrote:
>
> I'm not being disingenuous at all, only that this is a common problem when 
> people jump from one software to another. I've seen this many times from 
> users where they start in another package and try to do the exact same 
> workflow, only to then become frustrated.
>
> You can't jump to something else and expect it to work in the same way, you 
> simply can't. It's a recipe for disaster. And it's all too easy to label 
> something as being bad.
> I'm not saying that Maya's workflow is superior either. There are things I 
> like and hate about Maya, but you could also say the same about Softimage and 
> any software package to be fair.
> I think it was Luc-Eric who said in a previous post that apps have their set 
> of compromises, which we essentially accept.
>
> Chris has mention on work starting to improve Maya's UI and I welcome that. 
> And if there some Softimage goodness in there, then I welcome that too.
>
>
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
> ] On Behalf Of Alastair Hearsum
> Sent: 19 March 2014 12:45
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Re: A confession
>
> Graham
>
> I think its disingenuous to ascribe the difficulties people have in doing 
> things in Maya only to the workflow being different. It was simple example I 
> gave and I would have hoped that it would have highlighted the Maya workflow 
> as being, dare I say, bad. I hope you don't mind the analogy here but the 
> first step to an alcoholics recovery is admitting the problem. Marc Stevens 
> went as far as he could in the webinar in conceding that there may be 
> qualitative differences in the Maya/Softimage interface workflow scenario and 
> that it is something that you are looking at
>
> So yes, different, but lets not shy away from calling a spade a spade.
>
> Alastair
>
> Alastair Hearsum
> Head of 3d
> [GLASSWORKS]
> 33/34 Great Pulteney Street
> London
> W1F 9NP+44 (0)20 7434 1182glassworks.co.uk<http://www.glassworks.co.uk/> 
> <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
> Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
> (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office

Re: A confession

[Sebastian Kowalski]

Hey Graham, I agree.
but we don’t have the trust in Autodesk to come up with something like that. 
Despite the fact that it should be there right now.
There was plenty time since 2008.. 
I wish you and the rest m&e team god luck and will carry on elsewhere. 

Sebastian

——— 
Sebastian Kowalski
http://www.sekow.com




Am 19.03.2014 um 15:45 schrieb Graham Bell :

> I totally agree.
> 
> I'm not defending Maya as some kind of perfection, far from it. But at the 
> same time, I don't accept that Maya's UI and workflow is 'totally' crap. I 
> actually like various bits of Maya, but are there big chunks of it that need 
> addressing? You betcha. And I'm all for change and I'd love to have Softs 
> rendering 'system' in Maya, but I would also echo what Marc Stevens said in 
> that I wouldn't perhaps copy/paste a feature, but take the best and build 
> something new.
> 
> G
> 
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Jacob Gonzalez
> Sent: 19 March 2014 14:28
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Re: A confession
> 
> Hi Graham
> 
> Apart from a shot experience using Maya I also did the same with Houdini. And 
> again i was rendering. With Houdini I was frustrated the first few days as I 
> felt I could do things quicker in Soft. But it was much more interesting than 
> Maya since I could see the potential. After 3 weeks rendering with houdini I 
> was actually quite happy about it. It's flexible, powerful and let's the 
> artist enjoy a rendering workflow. My experience with Maya was totally the 
> opposite.
> 
> I don't have a massive experience with either Houdini or Maya, just a short 
> one. But I am very experienced with Soft and I now what it works for me and 
> what it doesnt.
> 
> If AD makes rendering in Maya as nice as in XSI, takes ICE into Maya, 
> etc. I would be very happy, sincemost likely I will be switching to Maya 
> -  but I doubt they will.
> 
> J
> 
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Perry Harovas 
> mailto:perryharo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Maya = WorkDrip
> Softimage = WorkFlow
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Gaël Honorez 
> mailto:g...@nozon.com>> wrote:
> We are using maya here for a dozen of years, but we are still trying to run 
> away from it on every occasion possible.
> 
> Today, we read the what's new page for maya 2015.
> 
> "Maya 2015 addresses at least 30 workflow obstacles identified as high 
> priority by customers".
> 
> That sentence make us laugh during all launch break. I don't know what 
> customers you asked, but I can tell you 30 workflow problems in the color 
> picker alone.
> 
> I just hope you forgot a 0 somewhere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 19/03/2014 14:25, Graham Bell wrote:
> I'm not being disingenuous at all, only that this is a common problem when 
> people jump from one software to another. I've seen this many times from 
> users where they start in another package and try to do the exact same 
> workflow, only to then become frustrated.
> 
> You can't jump to something else and expect it to work in the same way, you 
> simply can't. It's a recipe for disaster. And it's all too easy to label 
> something as being bad.
> I'm not saying that Maya's workflow is superior either. There are things I 
> like and hate about Maya, but you could also say the same about Softimage and 
> any software package to be fair.
> I think it was Luc-Eric who said in a previous post that apps have their set 
> of compromises, which we essentially accept.
> 
> Chris has mention on work starting to improve Maya's UI and I welcome that. 
> And if there some Softimage goodness in there, then I welcome that too.
> 
> 
> From: 
> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>
>  
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>]
>  On Behalf Of Alastair Hearsum
> Sent: 19 March 2014 12:45
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
> Subject: Re: A confession
> 
> Graham
> 
> I think its disingenuous to ascribe the difficulties people have in doing 
> things in Maya only to the workflow being different. It was simple example I 
> gave and I would have hoped that it would have highlighted the Maya workflow 
> as being, dare I say, bad. I hope you don't mind the analogy here but the 
> first step to an alcoholics recovery is admitting the problem. Marc Stevens 
> went as far as he could in the webinar in conceding that

Re: A confession

[Martin Yara]

Agree, a 3D product isn't easy to learn even if you are a Softimage veteran.

Learning how to do this stuff in Maya will take us more than just 2 years
while working, most probably with some Softimage projects. So I think ADSK
should be a little more helpful with this transition. I still think we need
more time, and the possibility to buy new licenses even if the product
doesn't get support or updates.

Learning Max would probably take me ten times more :P

Martin




On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 11:45 PM, Luc-Eric Rousseau wrote:

> None of these products are for newbies; we spent years learning Softimage.
> Sounds like you wanted to edit a history node, doing a procedural
> modification. You'd open the node editor or try the input section of the
> channel box. This is a first days stuff. We would probably not have had a
> render tree in XSI if we had focused on simplicity over power. And
> certainly not Ice. God you have to guess node name and search for them, are
> you kidding me. Even with classic simulation it's not always obvious to
> know what to select and when to call menu. There is all sort of stuff we
> just learn - the measure of usability is how well you can do more complex
> stuff once you know the basics
>
>

Re: A confession

[Alastair Hearsum]

Sorry Luc If you re-read my last mail I'm talking about the opinions of 
my colleagues who know how to use it.


Alastair Hearsum
Head of 3d
GLASSWORKS
33/34 Great Pulteney Street
London
W1F 9NP
+44 (0)20 7434 1182
glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
(Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 
25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)

Please consider the environment before you print this email.
DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private 
and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). 
Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do 
not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the 
intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in 
error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying 
of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received 
in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message 
from your system.

On 19/03/2014 14:45, Luc-Eric Rousseau wrote:


None of these products are for newbies; we spent years learning 
Softimage. Sounds like you wanted to edit a history node, doing a 
procedural modification. You'd open the node editor or try the input 
section of the channel box. This is a first days stuff. We would 
probably not have had a render tree in XSI if we had focused on 
simplicity over power. And certainly not Ice. God you have to guess 
node name and search for them, are you kidding me. Even with classic 
simulation it's not always obvious to know what to select and when to 
call menu. There is all sort of stuff we just learn - the measure of 
usability is how well you can do more complex stuff once you know the 
basics


On Mar 19, 2014 9:55 AM, "Alastair Hearsum" <mailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk>> wrote:


Graham

Sorry , I just can't accept that. We have very experienced people
here who have used Maya a lot in production. I trust them
implicitly. They produce some of our best work. They are not
raving newbies and have shown repeatedly their willingness and
ability to embrace new technology and workflows. Its not only from
my lack of experience that I have formed my opinions. I'll say it
again, Maya's interface and general workflow leaves a lot to be
desired. If you want to listen and you have a genuine desire to
improve Maya, this what we are saying.

Alastair


Alastair Hearsum
Head of 3d
GLASSWORKS
33/34 Great Pulteney Street
London
W1F 9NP
+44 (0)20 7434 1182 
glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at
glassworks.co.uk <http://glassworks.co.uk>
(Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered
office 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number:
86729)
Please consider the environment before you print this email.
DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged,
private and confidential and are intended solely for the stated
recipient(s). Any views or opinions presented are solely those of
the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Company.
If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have
received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination,
forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly
prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please
kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your
system.
On 19/03/2014 13:25, Graham Bell wrote:

I'm not being disingenuous at all, only that this is a common problem when 
people jump from one software to another. I've seen this many times from users 
where they start in another package and try to do the exact same workflow, only 
to then become frustrated.

You can't jump to something else and expect it to work in the same way, you 
simply can't. It's a recipe for disaster. And it's all too easy to label 
something as being bad.
I'm not saying that Maya's workflow is superior either. There are things I 
like and hate about Maya, but you could also say the same about Softimage and 
any software package to be fair.
I think it was Luc-Eric who said in a previous post that apps have their 
set of compromises, which we essentially accept.

Chris has mention on work starting to improve Maya's UI and I welcome that. 
And if there some Softimage goodness in there, then I welcome that too.


From:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com  
<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>  
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Alastair Hearsum
Sent: 19 March 201

Re: A confession

[Alastair Hearsum]

Graham

I may well be imposing my own emphasis on the word "totally" in your 
sentence:


"I don't accept that Maya's UI and workflow is 'totally' crap."

But you have put quotations round the word. Would I be wrong in 
rephrasing your sentence to be:


".Maya's UI and workflow is crap but not totally"

Alastair

Alastair Hearsum
Head of 3d
GLASSWORKS
33/34 Great Pulteney Street
London
W1F 9NP
+44 (0)20 7434 1182
glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
(Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 
25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)

Please consider the environment before you print this email.
DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private 
and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). 
Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do 
not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the 
intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in 
error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying 
of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received 
in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message 
from your system.

On 19/03/2014 14:45, Graham Bell wrote:

I totally agree.

I'm not defending Maya as some kind of perfection, far from it. But at the same 
time, I don't accept that Maya's UI and workflow is 'totally' crap. I actually 
like various bits of Maya, but are there big chunks of it that need addressing? 
You betcha. And I'm all for change and I'd love to have Softs rendering 
'system' in Maya, but I would also echo what Marc Stevens said in that I 
wouldn't perhaps copy/paste a feature, but take the best and build something 
new.

G

From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Jacob Gonzalez
Sent: 19 March 2014 14:28
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: A confession

Hi Graham

Apart from a shot experience using Maya I also did the same with Houdini. And 
again i was rendering. With Houdini I was frustrated the first few days as I 
felt I could do things quicker in Soft. But it was much more interesting than 
Maya since I could see the potential. After 3 weeks rendering with houdini I 
was actually quite happy about it. It's flexible, powerful and let's the artist 
enjoy a rendering workflow. My experience with Maya was totally the opposite.

I don't have a massive experience with either Houdini or Maya, just a short 
one. But I am very experienced with Soft and I now what it works for me and 
what it doesnt.

If AD makes rendering in Maya as nice as in XSI, takes ICE into Maya, etc. 
I would be very happy, sincemost likely I will be switching to Maya -  but I 
doubt they will.

J

On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Perry Harovas 
mailto:perryharo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Maya = WorkDrip
Softimage = WorkFlow



On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Gaël Honorez 
mailto:g...@nozon.com>> wrote:
We are using maya here for a dozen of years, but we are still trying to run 
away from it on every occasion possible.

Today, we read the what's new page for maya 2015.

"Maya 2015 addresses at least 30 workflow obstacles identified as high priority by 
customers".

That sentence make us laugh during all launch break. I don't know what 
customers you asked, but I can tell you 30 workflow problems in the color 
picker alone.

I just hope you forgot a 0 somewhere.




On 19/03/2014 14:25, Graham Bell wrote:
I'm not being disingenuous at all, only that this is a common problem when 
people jump from one software to another. I've seen this many times from users 
where they start in another package and try to do the exact same workflow, only 
to then become frustrated.

You can't jump to something else and expect it to work in the same way, you 
simply can't. It's a recipe for disaster. And it's all too easy to label 
something as being bad.
I'm not saying that Maya's workflow is superior either. There are things I like 
and hate about Maya, but you could also say the same about Softimage and any 
software package to be fair.
I think it was Luc-Eric who said in a previous post that apps have their set of 
compromises, which we essentially accept.

Chris has mention on work starting to improve Maya's UI and I welcome that. And 
if there some Softimage goodness in there, then I welcome that too.


From: 
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>
 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>]
 On Behalf Of Alastair Hearsum
Sent: 19 March 2

Re: A confession

[Chris Marshall]

:-)


On 19 March 2014 15:26, Alastair Hearsum  wrote:

>  Graham
>


> Would I be wrong in rephrasing your sentence to be:
>
> ".Maya's UI and workflow is crap but not totally"
>
> Alastair
>
>

RE: A confession

[Graham Bell]

Ha, I see what you did there.

From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Alastair Hearsum
Sent: 19 March 2014 15:27
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: A confession

Graham

I may well be imposing my own emphasis on the word "totally" in your sentence:

"I don't accept that Maya's UI and workflow is 'totally' crap."

But you have put quotations round the word. Would I be wrong in rephrasing your 
sentence to be:

".Maya's UI and workflow is crap but not totally"

Alastair


Alastair Hearsum
Head of 3d
[GLASSWORKS]
33/34 Great Pulteney Street
London
W1F 9NP
+44 (0)20 7434 1182
glassworks.co.uk<http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
(Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25 
Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
Please consider the environment before you print this email.
DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private and 
confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any views or 
opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily 
represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended recipient, be 
advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, 
dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly 
prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please kindly return it 
to the sender and delete this message from your system.
On 19/03/2014 14:45, Graham Bell wrote:

I totally agree.



I'm not defending Maya as some kind of perfection, far from it. But at the same 
time, I don't accept that Maya's UI and workflow is 'totally' crap. I actually 
like various bits of Maya, but are there big chunks of it that need addressing? 
You betcha. And I'm all for change and I'd love to have Softs rendering 
'system' in Maya, but I would also echo what Marc Stevens said in that I 
wouldn't perhaps copy/paste a feature, but take the best and build something 
new.



G



From: 
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>
 [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Jacob Gonzalez

Sent: 19 March 2014 14:28

To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>

Subject: Re: A confession



Hi Graham



Apart from a shot experience using Maya I also did the same with Houdini. And 
again i was rendering. With Houdini I was frustrated the first few days as I 
felt I could do things quicker in Soft. But it was much more interesting than 
Maya since I could see the potential. After 3 weeks rendering with houdini I 
was actually quite happy about it. It's flexible, powerful and let's the artist 
enjoy a rendering workflow. My experience with Maya was totally the opposite.



I don't have a massive experience with either Houdini or Maya, just a short 
one. But I am very experienced with Soft and I now what it works for me and 
what it doesnt.



If AD makes rendering in Maya as nice as in XSI, takes ICE into Maya, etc. 
I would be very happy, sincemost likely I will be switching to Maya -  but I 
doubt they will.



J



On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Perry Harovas 
mailto:perryharo...@gmail.com><mailto:perryharo...@gmail.com><mailto:perryharo...@gmail.com>>
 wrote:

Maya = WorkDrip

Softimage = WorkFlow







On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Gaël Honorez 
mailto:g...@nozon.com><mailto:g...@nozon.com><mailto:g...@nozon.com>>
 wrote:

We are using maya here for a dozen of years, but we are still trying to run 
away from it on every occasion possible.



Today, we read the what's new page for maya 2015.



"Maya 2015 addresses at least 30 workflow obstacles identified as high priority 
by customers".



That sentence make us laugh during all launch break. I don't know what 
customers you asked, but I can tell you 30 workflow problems in the color 
picker alone.



I just hope you forgot a 0 somewhere.









On 19/03/2014 14:25, Graham Bell wrote:

I'm not being disingenuous at all, only that this is a common problem when 
people jump from one software to another. I've seen this many times from users 
where they start in another package and try to do the exact same workflow, only 
to then become frustrated.



You can't jump to something else and expect it to work in the same way, you 
simply can't. It's a recipe for disaster. And it's all too easy to label 
something as being bad.

I'm not saying that Maya's workflow is superior either. There are things I like 
and hate about Maya, but you could also say the same about Softimage and any 
software package to be fair.

I think 

Re: A confession

[Steve Parish]

+1 for "Where are the transition videos"

I would have expected these from someone who genuinely wanted to ease my
transition pains


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 11:40 AM, Graham Bell wrote:

> Ha, I see what you did there.
>
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:
> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Alastair Hearsum
> Sent: 19 March 2014 15:27
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Re: A confession
>
> Graham
>
> I may well be imposing my own emphasis on the word "totally" in your
> sentence:
>
> "I don't accept that Maya's UI and workflow is 'totally' crap."
>
> But you have put quotations round the word. Would I be wrong in rephrasing
> your sentence to be:
>
> ".Maya's UI and workflow is crap but not totally"
>
> Alastair
>
>
> Alastair Hearsum
> Head of 3d
> [GLASSWORKS]
> 33/34 Great Pulteney Street
> London
> W1F 9NP
> +44 (0)20 7434 1182
> glassworks.co.uk<http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
> Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
> (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25
> Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
> Please consider the environment before you print this email.
> DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private
> and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any
> views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not
> necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended
> recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that
> any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is
> strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please
> kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system.
> On 19/03/2014 14:45, Graham Bell wrote:
>
> I totally agree.
>
>
>
> I'm not defending Maya as some kind of perfection, far from it. But at the
> same time, I don't accept that Maya's UI and workflow is 'totally' crap. I
> actually like various bits of Maya, but are there big chunks of it that
> need addressing? You betcha. And I'm all for change and I'd love to have
> Softs rendering 'system' in Maya, but I would also echo what Marc Stevens
> said in that I wouldn't perhaps copy/paste a feature, but take the best and
> build something new.
>
>
>
> G
>
>
>
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com> [mailto:
> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Jacob Gonzalez
>
> Sent: 19 March 2014 14:28
>
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> >
>
> Subject: Re: A confession
>
>
>
> Hi Graham
>
>
>
> Apart from a shot experience using Maya I also did the same with Houdini.
> And again i was rendering. With Houdini I was frustrated the first few days
> as I felt I could do things quicker in Soft. But it was much more
> interesting than Maya since I could see the potential. After 3 weeks
> rendering with houdini I was actually quite happy about it. It's flexible,
> powerful and let's the artist enjoy a rendering workflow. My experience
> with Maya was totally the opposite.
>
>
>
> I don't have a massive experience with either Houdini or Maya, just a
> short one. But I am very experienced with Soft and I now what it works for
> me and what it doesnt.
>
>
>
> If AD makes rendering in Maya as nice as in XSI, takes ICE into Maya,
> etc. I would be very happy, sincemost likely I will be switching to
> Maya -  but I doubt they will.
>
>
>
> J
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 2:08 PM, Perry Harovas  <mailto:perryharo...@gmail.com><mailto:perryharo...@gmail.com> perryharo...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Maya = WorkDrip
>
> Softimage = WorkFlow
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Gaël Honorez  g...@nozon.com><mailto:g...@nozon.com><mailto:g...@nozon.com>> wrote:
>
> We are using maya here for a dozen of years, but we are still trying to
> run away from it on every occasion possible.
>
>
>
> Today, we read the what's new page for maya 2015.
>
>
>
> "Maya 2015 addresses at least 30 workflow obstacles identified as high
> priority by customers".
>
>
>
> That sentence make us laugh during all launch break. I don't know what
> customers you asked, but I can tell you 30 workflow problems in the color
> picker alone.
>

Re: A confession

[Andy Nicholas]

 That's a great post Jason, and I think it sums up the differences between Maya
and Soft incredibly well.


I'm sorry Graham, but I'm with Alastair on this.


A




On 19 March 2014 at 19:54 Jason S  wrote:


> 
>  > >  On 19 March 2014 15:26, Alastair Hearsum
>  > > mailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk> >wrote:
> >  Graham
> > 
> >  Would I be wrong in rephrasing your sentence to be:
> >  ".Maya's UI and workflow is crap but not totally"
> >  Alastair ___
> > 
> >  > Here is a notable (& comprehensive) post on rigging from David Gallagher
> >  > in response to the super long and (seemingly purposefully) diluted
> >  > article comparing SI / Maya rigging (concerning rigging workflow -alone-)
> >  > weighing pro & cons, while overweighing pros, underweighing cons, and
> >  > identifying things like the ability to use "locators" as rig components
> >  > as a "con" So how long will it take to get there?
> 
>  > >  David Gallagher
> > 
> > 
> >  Jan 8
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  I rigged on quite a few characters in Maya at Blue Sky Studios and now
> > (Softimage) AnimSchool.
> >  We offer the well-known "Malcolm" rig for free.
> > 
> >  There is no comparison to rigging in Softimage and Maya--not the kind
> > of rigging I do.
> > 
> >  I often assume by now they have better workflows in Maya,
> >  but I'm often surprised to find how convoluted and limiting the
> > workflows are to this day.
> > 
> >  Most Maya people must not know there are better ways of working
> >  or aren't doing the kinds of things I am, because the difference is
> > profound.
> > 
> >  - At any point in the rigging process, you can make edits in the model
> > stack to change the shape and topology of the model.
> > 
> >  After experimenting, you can freeze that part of the stack and continue
> > on with that new shape,
> >  retaining almost every bit of work you've done.
> > 
> >  YOU CAN CHANGE THE TOPOLOGY. YOU CAN CHANGE THE SHAPE FREELY.
> > 
> >  This difference is huge. You can work toward completion without fear of
> > losing work.
> > 
> >  You can experiment freely--knowing it's fine if you want to make a
> > major change.
> > 
> >  I'm never afraid of losing blendshape work.
> > 
> >  And if the changes are really significant, you can always Gator your
> > way out of a jam.
> > 
> >  - You can do blendshape edits directly on the geometry, modelessly,
> > instead of on a separate blendshape object.
> > 
> >  - There is no comparison with corrective blendshapes.
> >  In Softimage, you go to Secondary Shape mode and drag a few points.
> >  In Maya, I wish you luck. You can install one of several plug-ins and
> > scripts and HOPE that it works.
> >  If the scenario is simple enough, it might.
> > 
> > 
> >  Several people here tried to help a student make a single corrective
> > blendshape on an elbow
> >   -- and we're all experienced Maya riggers--, after hours of
> > attempting, we threw up our hands.
> > 
> >  There was something in that object's history that was making the
> > blendshape plug-in fail.
> >  The answer is what it often is: just start over.
> > 
> >  - EDITING corrective blendshapes.
> >  In Maya, heaven help you if you want to edit that blendshape later.
> >  Start the process again and make a new one.
> >  In Softimage, drag a few points and you're done in seconds.
> > 
> >  - For facial work, being able to make face shapes in conjunction with
> > the mixer,
> >  working directly on the main geo.
> > 
> >  To see other shapes muted, soloed as you're working.
> > 
> >  This allows you to craft shapes that work for different scenarios, with
> > just the right falloff.
> > 
> >  You can make correctives for shape combinations quickly.
> > 
> >  In face work, it's all about how the functions combine to make the
> > range of expressive results.
> > 
> >  - The envelope weighting is far superior.
> > 
> >  The smoothing is just better, and more reliable.
> > 
> >  Negative weight painting actually works.
> > 
> >  Being able to make sophisticated weighting allows you to make lighter
> > rigs,
> >  because fewer nodes and calculations are needed.
> > 
> >  I can't believe someone actually compared Maya's Component Editor to
> > Softimage's Weight Editor. I'm stunned.
> > 
> >  Sometimes, demoing Maya's envelope weighting,
> >  it just stops working for no reason -- I have no idea why.
> >  (Mind you, I've been rigging in Maya since 1999.)
> > 
> >  - You can envelope/skin null objects, not just joints.
> >  (Yes, Maya will let you add other objects as deformers but it is
> > limiting and causes problems.)
> > 
> >  - The tweak tool.
> >  You can grab anywhere and it will just get the nearest point/edge/poly
> > and transform it precisely.
> >  (1 baby step now solved in Maya)

Re: A confession

[John Richard Sanchez]

Graham totally missed the point to begin with.


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 4:22 PM, Andy Nicholas wrote:

>  That's a great post Jason, and I think it sums up the differences between
> Maya
> and Soft incredibly well.
>
>
> I'm sorry Graham, but I'm with Alastair on this.
>
>
> A
>
>
>
>
> On 19 March 2014 at 19:54 Jason S  wrote:
>
>
> >
> >  > >  On 19 March 2014 15:26, Alastair Hearsum
> >  > > mailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk>
> >wrote:
> > >  Graham
> > >
> > >  Would I be wrong in rephrasing your sentence to be:
> > >  ".Maya's UI and workflow is crap but not totally"
> > >  Alastair ___
> > >
> > >  > Here is a notable (& comprehensive) post on rigging from David
> Gallagher
> > >  > in response to the super long and (seemingly purposefully) diluted
> > >  > article comparing SI / Maya rigging (concerning rigging workflow
> -alone-)
> > >  > weighing pro & cons, while overweighing pros, underweighing cons,
> and
> > >  > identifying things like the ability to use "locators" as rig
> components
> > >  > as a "con" So how long will it take to get there?
> >
> >  > >  David Gallagher
> > >
> > >
> > >  Jan 8
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  I rigged on quite a few characters in Maya at Blue Sky Studios
> and now
> > > (Softimage) AnimSchool.
> > >  We offer the well-known "Malcolm" rig for free.
> > >
> > >  There is no comparison to rigging in Softimage and Maya--not the
> kind
> > > of rigging I do.
> > >
> > >  I often assume by now they have better workflows in Maya,
> > >  but I'm often surprised to find how convoluted and limiting the
> > > workflows are to this day.
> > >
> > >  Most Maya people must not know there are better ways of working
> > >  or aren't doing the kinds of things I am, because the difference
> is
> > > profound.
> > >
> > >  - At any point in the rigging process, you can make edits in the
> model
> > > stack to change the shape and topology of the model.
> > >
> > >  After experimenting, you can freeze that part of the stack and
> continue
> > > on with that new shape,
> > >  retaining almost every bit of work you've done.
> > >
> > >  YOU CAN CHANGE THE TOPOLOGY. YOU CAN CHANGE THE SHAPE FREELY.
> > >
> > >  This difference is huge. You can work toward completion without
> fear of
> > > losing work.
> > >
> > >  You can experiment freely--knowing it's fine if you want to make a
> > > major change.
> > >
> > >  I'm never afraid of losing blendshape work.
> > >
> > >  And if the changes are really significant, you can always Gator
> your
> > > way out of a jam.
> > >
> > >  - You can do blendshape edits directly on the geometry,
> modelessly,
> > > instead of on a separate blendshape object.
> > >
> > >  - There is no comparison with corrective blendshapes.
> > >  In Softimage, you go to Secondary Shape mode and drag a few
> points.
> > >  In Maya, I wish you luck. You can install one of several plug-ins
> and
> > > scripts and HOPE that it works.
> > >  If the scenario is simple enough, it might.
> > >
> > >
> > >  Several people here tried to help a student make a single
> corrective
> > > blendshape on an elbow
> > >   -- and we're all experienced Maya riggers--, after hours of
> > > attempting, we threw up our hands.
> > >
> > >  There was something in that object's history that was making the
> > > blendshape plug-in fail.
> > >  The answer is what it often is: just start over.
> > >
> > >  - EDITING corrective blendshapes.
> > >  In Maya, heaven help you if you want to edit that blendshape
> later.
> > >  Start the process again and make a new one.
> > >  In Softimage, drag a few points and you're done in seconds.
> > >
> > >  - For facial work, being able to make face shapes in conjunction
> with
> > > the mixer,
> > >  working directly on the main geo.
> > >
> > >  To see other shapes muted, soloed as you're working.
> > >
> > >  This allows you to craft shapes that work for different
> scenarios, with
> > > just the right falloff.
> > >
> > >  You can make correctives for shape combinations quickly.
> > >
> > >  In face work, it's all about how the functions combine to make the
> > > range of expressive results.
> > >
> > >  - The envelope weighting is far superior.
> > >
> > >  The smoothing is just better, and more reliable.
> > >
> > >  Negative weight painting actually works.
> > >
> > >  Being able to make sophisticated weighting allows you to make
> lighter
> > > rigs,
> > >  because fewer nodes and calculations are needed.
> > >
> > >  I can't believe someone actually compared Maya's Component Editor
> to
> > > Softimage's Weight Editor. I'm stunned.
> > >
> > >  Sometimes, demoing Maya's envelope weighting,
> > >  it just stops working for no reason -- I have no idea why.
> > >  (Mind you, I've been rigging in Maya since 1999.)
> > 

Re: A confession

[Graham Bell]

Actually I didn’t.

And I’m both agreeing and disagreeing with Alastair (and others), but I’ll 
happily concede that I could of rephrased things better. I’ve always been a 
better talker than writer.

From: John Richard Sanchez 
mailto:youngupstar...@gmail.com>>
Reply-To: 
"softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>" 
mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2014 16:58:34 -0400
To: Andy Nicholas mailto:a...@andynicholas.com>>, 
"softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>" 
mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>>
Subject: Re: A confession

Graham totally missed the point to begin with.


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 4:22 PM, Andy Nicholas 
mailto:a...@andynicholas.com>> wrote:
 That's a great post Jason, and I think it sums up the differences between Maya
and Soft incredibly well.


I'm sorry Graham, but I'm with Alastair on this.


A




On 19 March 2014 at 19:54 Jason S 
mailto:jasonsta...@gmail.com>> wrote:


>
>  > >  On 19 March 2014 15:26, Alastair Hearsum
>  > > mailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk> 
> <mailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk<mailto:hear...@glassworks.co.uk>> >wrote:
> >  Graham
> >
> >  Would I be wrong in rephrasing your sentence to be:
> >  ".Maya's UI and workflow is crap but not totally"
> >  Alastair ___
> >
> >  > Here is a notable (& comprehensive) post on rigging from David Gallagher
> >  > in response to the super long and (seemingly purposefully) diluted
> >  > article comparing SI / Maya rigging (concerning rigging workflow -alone-)
> >  > weighing pro & cons, while overweighing pros, underweighing cons, and
> >  > identifying things like the ability to use "locators" as rig components
> >  > as a "con" So how long will it take to get there?
>
>  > >  David Gallagher
> >
> >
> >  Jan 8
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  I rigged on quite a few characters in Maya at Blue Sky Studios and now
> > (Softimage) AnimSchool.
> >  We offer the well-known "Malcolm" rig for free.
> >
> >  There is no comparison to rigging in Softimage and Maya--not the kind
> > of rigging I do.
> >
> >  I often assume by now they have better workflows in Maya,
> >  but I'm often surprised to find how convoluted and limiting the
> > workflows are to this day.
> >
> >  Most Maya people must not know there are better ways of working
> >  or aren't doing the kinds of things I am, because the difference is
> > profound.
> >
> >  - At any point in the rigging process, you can make edits in the model
> > stack to change the shape and topology of the model.
> >
> >  After experimenting, you can freeze that part of the stack and continue
> > on with that new shape,
> >  retaining almost every bit of work you've done.
> >
> >  YOU CAN CHANGE THE TOPOLOGY. YOU CAN CHANGE THE SHAPE FREELY.
> >
> >  This difference is huge. You can work toward completion without fear of
> > losing work.
> >
> >  You can experiment freely--knowing it's fine if you want to make a
> > major change.
> >
> >  I'm never afraid of losing blendshape work.
> >
> >  And if the changes are really significant, you can always Gator your
> > way out of a jam.
> >
> >  - You can do blendshape edits directly on the geometry, modelessly,
> > instead of on a separate blendshape object.
> >
> >  - There is no comparison with corrective blendshapes.
> >  In Softimage, you go to Secondary Shape mode and drag a few points.
> >  In Maya, I wish you luck. You can install one of several plug-ins and
> > scripts and HOPE that it works.
> >  If the scenario is simple enough, it might.
> >
> >
> >  Several people here tried to help a student make a single corrective
> > blendshape on an elbow
> >   -- and we're all experienced Maya riggers--, after hours of
> > attempting, we threw up our hands.
> >
> >  There was something in that object's history that was making the
> > blendshape plug-in fail.
> >  The answer is what it often is: just start over.
> >
> >  - EDITING corrective blendshapes.
> >  In Maya, heaven help you if you want to edit that blendshape later.
> >  Start the process again and make a new one.
> >  In Softimage, d

Re: A confession

[Raffaele Fragapane]

Sorry Luce-Eric, I have to disagree with this, and I find your examples
defeat your own argument.
I have had years to develop muscle memory in Maya, and I'm comfortable
nearly anywhere in the software, at least everywhere I might need to be,
and it's still very frequently an uphill struggle.

Maya is hugely inconsistent, especially in the views you mention, compared
to Softimage.
You can get to decent operational speed in Maya, but a double digit number
of years in I still have to write a script for something at least once a
week... when it can be written at all.

The main problem is twofold. The first part is that Maya absolutely
requires you become a power user with an intimate understanding of the
choices and modes of operation to be fluid when working. There is no hints
to shortcuts, the shortcut editor is a mess, A LOT of absolutely key day
one stuff is simply not available in the interface (if you don't watch a
tutorial you will never find you need insert and x,c,v on a constant
basis), and in general it actively discourages exploration by being
punishing of any single mistake.
Comparatively speaking Soft is a lot more in your face and immediate. Even
if you don't know the software you can usually bumble your way around into
finding what you need and first develop knowledge of what's available, and
then developing muscle memory through simple repetition.

The second part is developing muscle memory itself.
You're a UI guy, I'm sure you've read your literature on user experience,
learning patterns, conditioning and so on.
XSI will generally confront you with about four or five key interaction
models, and it hardly ever excepts them. Everything is a sticky key, every
menu unfolds and works the same way, every panel toggles and offers options
the same way and has functionality aggregated nearby that is generally
understandable and correlated by similar rules.
Conversely, Maya requires constant exceptions to learning.
Altering interaction, which should all be part of the same learning group,
is inconsistent. Some modifiers are sticky. Snapping is semi-sticky, as in
it sticks only if you enter snapping before you draw/drag, whereas some
things are completely non sticky, such as moving a pivot.
Menus are generally click through, unless you access them from the hotbox,
in which case they are, uselessly, hold-to-traverse.

I could write you a long list, but my point is that while I do find people
being excessively contrary and biased, but can't blame them for it given
the situation, lets not pretend Maya's user experience is comparable but
different: it simply isn't, and there's work to do. Hopefully H-Maya will
go part or all the way to address it, but there are some very, very
fundamental issues that worked their way backwards into the actual
functional guts of Maya coming from its extremely poor, inconsistent,
frustratingly fragmented and arbitrary interaction model.

The GUI itself is probably not even worth discussing in depth. I mean, no
arbitrary viewport arrangement after 16 years? F'in Seriously? And if you
want me to use the stupid buttons on the left you're not even providing one
with the left view vertical and a horizontal split on the right? Only the
opposite. Come on, Luc, get on it and fix that shit already :p You did
infinitely better work than this on XSI, bring it to Maya if you want
people to use and don't be dismissive of people's opinions by saying you
can only compare power-user experiences (beside the fact a Soft Power User
will run circles around a Maya one in nearly any task when it comes to
interaction).


On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 1:45 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau wrote:

> None of these products are for newbies; we spent years learning Softimage.
> Sounds like you wanted to edit a history node, doing a procedural
> modification. You'd open the node editor or try the input section of the
> channel box. This is a first days stuff. We would probably not have had a
> render tree in XSI if we had focused on simplicity over power. And
> certainly not Ice. God you have to guess node name and search for them, are
> you kidding me. Even with classic simulation it's not always obvious to
> know what to select and when to call menu. There is all sort of stuff we
> just learn - the measure of usability is how well you can do more complex
> stuff once you know the basics
>
>

Re: A confession

[John Richard Sanchez]

+ 1


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Raffaele Fragapane <
raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Sorry Luce-Eric, I have to disagree with this, and I find your examples
> defeat your own argument.
> I have had years to develop muscle memory in Maya, and I'm comfortable
> nearly anywhere in the software, at least everywhere I might need to be,
> and it's still very frequently an uphill struggle.
>
> Maya is hugely inconsistent, especially in the views you mention, compared
> to Softimage.
> You can get to decent operational speed in Maya, but a double digit number
> of years in I still have to write a script for something at least once a
> week... when it can be written at all.
>
> The main problem is twofold. The first part is that Maya absolutely
> requires you become a power user with an intimate understanding of the
> choices and modes of operation to be fluid when working. There is no hints
> to shortcuts, the shortcut editor is a mess, A LOT of absolutely key day
> one stuff is simply not available in the interface (if you don't watch a
> tutorial you will never find you need insert and x,c,v on a constant
> basis), and in general it actively discourages exploration by being
> punishing of any single mistake.
> Comparatively speaking Soft is a lot more in your face and immediate. Even
> if you don't know the software you can usually bumble your way around into
> finding what you need and first develop knowledge of what's available, and
> then developing muscle memory through simple repetition.
>
> The second part is developing muscle memory itself.
> You're a UI guy, I'm sure you've read your literature on user experience,
> learning patterns, conditioning and so on.
> XSI will generally confront you with about four or five key interaction
> models, and it hardly ever excepts them. Everything is a sticky key, every
> menu unfolds and works the same way, every panel toggles and offers options
> the same way and has functionality aggregated nearby that is generally
> understandable and correlated by similar rules.
> Conversely, Maya requires constant exceptions to learning.
> Altering interaction, which should all be part of the same learning group,
> is inconsistent. Some modifiers are sticky. Snapping is semi-sticky, as in
> it sticks only if you enter snapping before you draw/drag, whereas some
> things are completely non sticky, such as moving a pivot.
> Menus are generally click through, unless you access them from the hotbox,
> in which case they are, uselessly, hold-to-traverse.
>
> I could write you a long list, but my point is that while I do find people
> being excessively contrary and biased, but can't blame them for it given
> the situation, lets not pretend Maya's user experience is comparable but
> different: it simply isn't, and there's work to do. Hopefully H-Maya will
> go part or all the way to address it, but there are some very, very
> fundamental issues that worked their way backwards into the actual
> functional guts of Maya coming from its extremely poor, inconsistent,
> frustratingly fragmented and arbitrary interaction model.
>
> The GUI itself is probably not even worth discussing in depth. I mean, no
> arbitrary viewport arrangement after 16 years? F'in Seriously? And if you
> want me to use the stupid buttons on the left you're not even providing one
> with the left view vertical and a horizontal split on the right? Only the
> opposite. Come on, Luc, get on it and fix that shit already :p You did
> infinitely better work than this on XSI, bring it to Maya if you want
> people to use and don't be dismissive of people's opinions by saying you
> can only compare power-user experiences (beside the fact a Soft Power User
> will run circles around a Maya one in nearly any task when it comes to
> interaction).
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 1:45 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau wrote:
>
>> None of these products are for newbies; we spent years learning
>> Softimage. Sounds like you wanted to edit a history node, doing a
>> procedural modification. You'd open the node editor or try the input
>> section of the channel box. This is a first days stuff. We would probably
>> not have had a render tree in XSI if we had focused on simplicity over
>> power. And certainly not Ice. God you have to guess node name and search
>> for them, are you kidding me. Even with classic simulation it's not always
>> obvious to know what to select and when to call menu. There is all sort of
>> stuff we just learn - the measure of usability is how well you can do more
>> complex stuff once you know the basics
>>
>>


-- 
www.johnrichardsanchez.com

Re: A confession

[Perry Harovas]

+ 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 (at least)


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:47 PM, John Richard Sanchez <
youngupstar...@gmail.com> wrote:

> + 1
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Raffaele Fragapane <
> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sorry Luce-Eric, I have to disagree with this, and I find your examples
>> defeat your own argument.
>> I have had years to develop muscle memory in Maya, and I'm comfortable
>> nearly anywhere in the software, at least everywhere I might need to be,
>> and it's still very frequently an uphill struggle.
>>
>> Maya is hugely inconsistent, especially in the views you mention,
>> compared to Softimage.
>> You can get to decent operational speed in Maya, but a double digit
>> number of years in I still have to write a script for something at least
>> once a week... when it can be written at all.
>>
>> The main problem is twofold. The first part is that Maya absolutely
>> requires you become a power user with an intimate understanding of the
>> choices and modes of operation to be fluid when working. There is no hints
>> to shortcuts, the shortcut editor is a mess, A LOT of absolutely key day
>> one stuff is simply not available in the interface (if you don't watch a
>> tutorial you will never find you need insert and x,c,v on a constant
>> basis), and in general it actively discourages exploration by being
>> punishing of any single mistake.
>> Comparatively speaking Soft is a lot more in your face and immediate.
>> Even if you don't know the software you can usually bumble your way around
>> into finding what you need and first develop knowledge of what's available,
>> and then developing muscle memory through simple repetition.
>>
>> The second part is developing muscle memory itself.
>> You're a UI guy, I'm sure you've read your literature on user experience,
>> learning patterns, conditioning and so on.
>> XSI will generally confront you with about four or five key interaction
>> models, and it hardly ever excepts them. Everything is a sticky key, every
>> menu unfolds and works the same way, every panel toggles and offers options
>> the same way and has functionality aggregated nearby that is generally
>> understandable and correlated by similar rules.
>> Conversely, Maya requires constant exceptions to learning.
>> Altering interaction, which should all be part of the same learning
>> group, is inconsistent. Some modifiers are sticky. Snapping is semi-sticky,
>> as in it sticks only if you enter snapping before you draw/drag, whereas
>> some things are completely non sticky, such as moving a pivot.
>> Menus are generally click through, unless you access them from the
>> hotbox, in which case they are, uselessly, hold-to-traverse.
>>
>> I could write you a long list, but my point is that while I do find
>> people being excessively contrary and biased, but can't blame them for it
>> given the situation, lets not pretend Maya's user experience is comparable
>> but different: it simply isn't, and there's work to do. Hopefully H-Maya
>> will go part or all the way to address it, but there are some very, very
>> fundamental issues that worked their way backwards into the actual
>> functional guts of Maya coming from its extremely poor, inconsistent,
>> frustratingly fragmented and arbitrary interaction model.
>>
>> The GUI itself is probably not even worth discussing in depth. I mean, no
>> arbitrary viewport arrangement after 16 years? F'in Seriously? And if you
>> want me to use the stupid buttons on the left you're not even providing one
>> with the left view vertical and a horizontal split on the right? Only the
>> opposite. Come on, Luc, get on it and fix that shit already :p You did
>> infinitely better work than this on XSI, bring it to Maya if you want
>> people to use and don't be dismissive of people's opinions by saying you
>> can only compare power-user experiences (beside the fact a Soft Power User
>> will run circles around a Maya one in nearly any task when it comes to
>> interaction).
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 1:45 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> None of these products are for newbies; we spent years learning
>>> Softimage. Sounds like you wanted to edit a history node, doing a
>>> procedural modification. You'd open the node editor or try the input
>>> section of the channel box. This is a first days stuff. We would probably
>>> not have had a render tree in XSI if we had focused on simplicity over
>>> power. And certainly not Ice. God you have to guess node name and search
>>> for them, are you kidding me. Even with classic simulation it's not always
>>> obvious to know what to select and when to call menu. There is all sort of
>>> stuff we just learn - the measure of usability is how well you can do more
>>> complex stuff once you know the basics
>>>
>>>
>
>
> --
> www.johnrichardsanchez.com
>



-- 





Perry Harovas
Animation and Visual Effects

http://www.TheAfterImage.com 

Re: A confession

[Morten Bartholdy]

What a downright lovely mail Raf. This is a major thing not listing the
more substantial feature bits.

Morten


Den 19. marts 2014 kl. 23:32 skrev Raffaele Fragapane
:

> Sorry Luce-Eric, I have to disagree with this, and I find your examples
> defeat your own argument.
> I have had years to develop muscle memory in Maya, and I'm comfortable
> nearly anywhere in the software, at least everywhere I might need to be,
> and it's still very frequently an uphill struggle.
> 
> Maya is hugely inconsistent, especially in the views you mention, compared
> to Softimage.
> You can get to decent operational speed in Maya, but a double digit number
> of years in I still have to write a script for something at least once a
> week... when it can be written at all.
> 
> The main problem is twofold. The first part is that Maya absolutely
> requires you become a power user with an intimate understanding of the
> choices and modes of operation to be fluid when working. There is no hints
> to shortcuts, the shortcut editor is a mess, A LOT of absolutely key day
> one stuff is simply not available in the interface (if you don't watch a
> tutorial you will never find you need insert and x,c,v on a constant
> basis), and in general it actively discourages exploration by being
> punishing of any single mistake.
> Comparatively speaking Soft is a lot more in your face and immediate. Even
> if you don't know the software you can usually bumble your way around into
> finding what you need and first develop knowledge of what's available, and
> then developing muscle memory through simple repetition.
> 
> The second part is developing muscle memory itself.
> You're a UI guy, I'm sure you've read your literature on user experience,
> learning patterns, conditioning and so on.
> XSI will generally confront you with about four or five key interaction
> models, and it hardly ever excepts them. Everything is a sticky key, every
> menu unfolds and works the same way, every panel toggles and offers options
> the same way and has functionality aggregated nearby that is generally
> understandable and correlated by similar rules.
> Conversely, Maya requires constant exceptions to learning.
> Altering interaction, which should all be part of the same learning group,
> is inconsistent. Some modifiers are sticky. Snapping is semi-sticky, as in
> it sticks only if you enter snapping before you draw/drag, whereas some
> things are completely non sticky, such as moving a pivot.
> Menus are generally click through, unless you access them from the hotbox,
> in which case they are, uselessly, hold-to-traverse.
> 
> I could write you a long list, but my point is that while I do find people
> being excessively contrary and biased, but can't blame them for it given
> the situation, lets not pretend Maya's user experience is comparable but
> different: it simply isn't, and there's work to do. Hopefully H-Maya will
> go part or all the way to address it, but there are some very, very
> fundamental issues that worked their way backwards into the actual
> functional guts of Maya coming from its extremely poor, inconsistent,
> frustratingly fragmented and arbitrary interaction model.
> 
> The GUI itself is probably not even worth discussing in depth. I mean, no
> arbitrary viewport arrangement after 16 years? F'in Seriously? And if you
> want me to use the stupid buttons on the left you're not even providing one
> with the left view vertical and a horizontal split on the right? Only the
> opposite. Come on, Luc, get on it and fix that shit already :p You did
> infinitely better work than this on XSI, bring it to Maya if you want
> people to use and don't be dismissive of people's opinions by saying you
> can only compare power-user experiences (beside the fact a Soft Power User
> will run circles around a Maya one in nearly any task when it comes to
> interaction).
> 
> 
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 1:45 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau < luceri...@gmail.com
>  > wrote:
> > 
> > None of these products are for newbies; we spent years learning Softimage.
> > Sounds like you wanted to edit a history node, doing a procedural
> > modification. You'd open the node editor or try the input section of the
> > channel box. This is a first days stuff. We would probably not have had a
> > render tree in XSI if we had focused on simplicity over power. And
> > certainly not Ice. God you have to guess node name and search for them, are
> > you kidding me. Even with classic simulation it's not always obvious to
> > know what to select and when to call menu. There is all sort of stuff we
> > just learn - the measure of usability is how well you can do more complex
> > stuff once you know the basics
> > 
> > 

Re: A confession

[Eric Thivierge]

Slow clap... :)


Eric Thivierge
http://www.ethivierge.com


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Raffaele Fragapane <
raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Sorry Luce-Eric, I have to disagree with this, and I find your examples
> defeat your own argument.
> I have had years to develop muscle memory in Maya, and I'm comfortable
> nearly anywhere in the software, at least everywhere I might need to be,
> and it's still very frequently an uphill struggle.
>
> Maya is hugely inconsistent, especially in the views you mention, compared
> to Softimage.
> You can get to decent operational speed in Maya, but a double digit number
> of years in I still have to write a script for something at least once a
> week... when it can be written at all.
>
> The main problem is twofold. The first part is that Maya absolutely
> requires you become a power user with an intimate understanding of the
> choices and modes of operation to be fluid when working. There is no hints
> to shortcuts, the shortcut editor is a mess, A LOT of absolutely key day
> one stuff is simply not available in the interface (if you don't watch a
> tutorial you will never find you need insert and x,c,v on a constant
> basis), and in general it actively discourages exploration by being
> punishing of any single mistake.
> Comparatively speaking Soft is a lot more in your face and immediate. Even
> if you don't know the software you can usually bumble your way around into
> finding what you need and first develop knowledge of what's available, and
> then developing muscle memory through simple repetition.
>
> The second part is developing muscle memory itself.
> You're a UI guy, I'm sure you've read your literature on user experience,
> learning patterns, conditioning and so on.
> XSI will generally confront you with about four or five key interaction
> models, and it hardly ever excepts them. Everything is a sticky key, every
> menu unfolds and works the same way, every panel toggles and offers options
> the same way and has functionality aggregated nearby that is generally
> understandable and correlated by similar rules.
> Conversely, Maya requires constant exceptions to learning.
> Altering interaction, which should all be part of the same learning group,
> is inconsistent. Some modifiers are sticky. Snapping is semi-sticky, as in
> it sticks only if you enter snapping before you draw/drag, whereas some
> things are completely non sticky, such as moving a pivot.
> Menus are generally click through, unless you access them from the hotbox,
> in which case they are, uselessly, hold-to-traverse.
>
> I could write you a long list, but my point is that while I do find people
> being excessively contrary and biased, but can't blame them for it given
> the situation, lets not pretend Maya's user experience is comparable but
> different: it simply isn't, and there's work to do. Hopefully H-Maya will
> go part or all the way to address it, but there are some very, very
> fundamental issues that worked their way backwards into the actual
> functional guts of Maya coming from its extremely poor, inconsistent,
> frustratingly fragmented and arbitrary interaction model.
>
> The GUI itself is probably not even worth discussing in depth. I mean, no
> arbitrary viewport arrangement after 16 years? F'in Seriously? And if you
> want me to use the stupid buttons on the left you're not even providing one
> with the left view vertical and a horizontal split on the right? Only the
> opposite. Come on, Luc, get on it and fix that shit already :p You did
> infinitely better work than this on XSI, bring it to Maya if you want
> people to use and don't be dismissive of people's opinions by saying you
> can only compare power-user experiences (beside the fact a Soft Power User
> will run circles around a Maya one in nearly any task when it comes to
> interaction).
>

Re: A confession

[Luc-Eric Rousseau]

This is all fine, but I though I was replying to a situation of
skipping over the basics, you can't ignore the existence of DG if
you're going to do something procedurally.  I didn't reply at the
correct place in the thread, sorry for the confusion.


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Raffaele Fragapane
 wrote:
> Sorry Luce-Eric, I have to disagree with this, and I find your examples
> defeat your own argument.

Re: A confession

[Raffaele Fragapane]

Fair enough, bit of crossed wires and sensitive souls converging then.
Still, please do fix that sh... stuff in Maya's UI :)


On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau wrote:

> This is all fine, but I though I was replying to a situation of
> skipping over the basics, you can't ignore the existence of DG if
> you're going to do something procedurally.  I didn't reply at the
> correct place in the thread, sorry for the confusion.
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Raffaele Fragapane
>  wrote:
> > Sorry Luce-Eric, I have to disagree with this, and I find your examples
> > defeat your own argument.
>



-- 
Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it
and let them flee like the dogs they are!

Re: A confession

[Adam Sale]

+ 1 Amen Brother + 1


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Raffaele Fragapane <
raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Fair enough, bit of crossed wires and sensitive souls converging then.
> Still, please do fix that sh... stuff in Maya's UI :)
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau 
> wrote:
>
>> This is all fine, but I though I was replying to a situation of
>> skipping over the basics, you can't ignore the existence of DG if
>> you're going to do something procedurally.  I didn't reply at the
>> correct place in the thread, sorry for the confusion.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Raffaele Fragapane
>>  wrote:
>> > Sorry Luce-Eric, I have to disagree with this, and I find your examples
>> > defeat your own argument.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it
> and let them flee like the dogs they are!
>

Re: A confession

[Sebastien Sterling]

Luc-Eric ?

It seems to me modding the Maya UI to be more XSI inclined, poses it's own
problems, I'm sure on the other side of the fence are a few Maya power
users who would not take to kindly to seeing their workflow altered.

How much can really be delivered by project H in your opinion ?

Or will it be a CAD junkie ZEN paradigm ? the alternative streamline
interface for Modo...





On 19 March 2014 23:57, Adam Sale  wrote:

> + 1 Amen Brother + 1
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Raffaele Fragapane <
> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Fair enough, bit of crossed wires and sensitive souls converging then.
>> Still, please do fix that sh... stuff in Maya's UI :)
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This is all fine, but I though I was replying to a situation of
>>> skipping over the basics, you can't ignore the existence of DG if
>>> you're going to do something procedurally.  I didn't reply at the
>>> correct place in the thread, sorry for the confusion.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Raffaele Fragapane
>>>  wrote:
>>> > Sorry Luce-Eric, I have to disagree with this, and I find your examples
>>> > defeat your own argument.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it
>> and let them flee like the dogs they are!
>>
>
>

Re: A confession

[Greg Punchatz]

Raffaele!!  I am standing on my desk clapping...

Does Maya have the middle mouse memory button on menus like softimage does?
If not make that a top priority... there should be a law requiring that
feature in every program...really.





On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 7:10 PM, Sebastien Sterling <
sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Luc-Eric ?
>
> It seems to me modding the Maya UI to be more XSI inclined, poses it's own
> problems, I'm sure on the other side of the fence are a few Maya power
> users who would not take to kindly to seeing their workflow altered.
>
> How much can really be delivered by project H in your opinion ?
>
> Or will it be a CAD junkie ZEN paradigm ? the alternative streamline
> interface for Modo...
>
>
>
>
>
> On 19 March 2014 23:57, Adam Sale  wrote:
>
>> + 1 Amen Brother + 1
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Raffaele Fragapane <
>> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Fair enough, bit of crossed wires and sensitive souls converging then.
>>> Still, please do fix that sh... stuff in Maya's UI :)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau >> > wrote:
>>>
 This is all fine, but I though I was replying to a situation of
 skipping over the basics, you can't ignore the existence of DG if
 you're going to do something procedurally.  I didn't reply at the
 correct place in the thread, sorry for the confusion.


 On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Raffaele Fragapane
  wrote:
 > Sorry Luce-Eric, I have to disagree with this, and I find your
 examples
 > defeat your own argument.

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it
>>> and let them flee like the dogs they are!
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: A confession

[Raffaele Fragapane]

No, but if you think that's the worst wait until you see how selection
highlighting and hierarchies are treated :p

Middle mouse button in Maya is largely a non-ui thing and has impactful
effects. Connecting things, changing the hierarchy in the outliner and so
on. It's not a bad use for it actually, drag'n'drop hierarchies in the
explorer are quick but I have on occasion cursed the feature (left click
scrolling on the other hand is unacceptably missing in Maya, where they
decided of all things to keep navigation consistent, so lots of alt middle
mouse dragging to pan a 2D view when left dragging open areas would have
been better).

But yeah, middle click as a repeat last and toggle is immensely useful, I
miss it badly whenever I use Maya, important keys are sacrificed to shading
mode changes when in XSI you can just toggle the last two with a click and
intuitively set them without learning a new mechanic (shaded and hidden
line the two most common for me).
This is the kind of things I meant when I said XSI confronts you with an
extremely limited, consistent, yet non-restrictive set of things to learn
to interact with it. Last time I bothered defining a category and counting
when I was studying some UI and UE stuff Maya flagged at 16+ unique and
arbitrary models vs XSI's 4 or 5 (couldn't decide the parameters enough to
get a single number).


On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 1:46 PM, Greg Punchatz  wrote:

> Raffaele!!  I am standing on my desk clapping...
>
> Does Maya have the middle mouse memory button on menus like softimage
> does? If not make that a top priority... there should be a law requiring
> that feature in every program...really.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 7:10 PM, Sebastien Sterling <
> sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Luc-Eric ?
>>
>> It seems to me modding the Maya UI to be more XSI inclined, poses it's
>> own problems, I'm sure on the other side of the fence are a few Maya power
>> users who would not take to kindly to seeing their workflow altered.
>>
>> How much can really be delivered by project H in your opinion ?
>>
>> Or will it be a CAD junkie ZEN paradigm ? the alternative streamline
>> interface for Modo...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 19 March 2014 23:57, Adam Sale  wrote:
>>
>>> + 1 Amen Brother + 1
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Raffaele Fragapane <
>>> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Fair enough, bit of crossed wires and sensitive souls converging then.
 Still, please do fix that sh... stuff in Maya's UI :)


 On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau <
 luceri...@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is all fine, but I though I was replying to a situation of
> skipping over the basics, you can't ignore the existence of DG if
> you're going to do something procedurally.  I didn't reply at the
> correct place in the thread, sorry for the confusion.
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Raffaele Fragapane
>  wrote:
> > Sorry Luce-Eric, I have to disagree with this, and I find your
> examples
> > defeat your own argument.
>



 --
 Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship
 it and let them flee like the dogs they are!

>>>
>>>
>>
>


-- 
Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it
and let them flee like the dogs they are!

Re: A confession

[Ognjen Vukovic]

If i recall correctly , the "g" key is a repeat last tool shortcut. Not the
same but its something.


On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 3:54 AM, Raffaele Fragapane <
raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> No, but if you think that's the worst wait until you see how selection
> highlighting and hierarchies are treated :p
>
> Middle mouse button in Maya is largely a non-ui thing and has impactful
> effects. Connecting things, changing the hierarchy in the outliner and so
> on. It's not a bad use for it actually, drag'n'drop hierarchies in the
> explorer are quick but I have on occasion cursed the feature (left click
> scrolling on the other hand is unacceptably missing in Maya, where they
> decided of all things to keep navigation consistent, so lots of alt middle
> mouse dragging to pan a 2D view when left dragging open areas would have
> been better).
>
> But yeah, middle click as a repeat last and toggle is immensely useful, I
> miss it badly whenever I use Maya, important keys are sacrificed to shading
> mode changes when in XSI you can just toggle the last two with a click and
> intuitively set them without learning a new mechanic (shaded and hidden
> line the two most common for me).
> This is the kind of things I meant when I said XSI confronts you with an
> extremely limited, consistent, yet non-restrictive set of things to learn
> to interact with it. Last time I bothered defining a category and counting
> when I was studying some UI and UE stuff Maya flagged at 16+ unique and
> arbitrary models vs XSI's 4 or 5 (couldn't decide the parameters enough to
> get a single number).
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 1:46 PM, Greg Punchatz wrote:
>
>> Raffaele!!  I am standing on my desk clapping...
>>
>> Does Maya have the middle mouse memory button on menus like softimage
>> does? If not make that a top priority... there should be a law requiring
>> that feature in every program...really.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 7:10 PM, Sebastien Sterling <
>> sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Luc-Eric ?
>>>
>>> It seems to me modding the Maya UI to be more XSI inclined, poses it's
>>> own problems, I'm sure on the other side of the fence are a few Maya power
>>> users who would not take to kindly to seeing their workflow altered.
>>>
>>> How much can really be delivered by project H in your opinion ?
>>>
>>> Or will it be a CAD junkie ZEN paradigm ? the alternative streamline
>>> interface for Modo...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19 March 2014 23:57, Adam Sale  wrote:
>>>
 + 1 Amen Brother + 1


 On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Raffaele Fragapane <
 raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Fair enough, bit of crossed wires and sensitive souls converging then.
> Still, please do fix that sh... stuff in Maya's UI :)
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau <
> luceri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is all fine, but I though I was replying to a situation of
>> skipping over the basics, you can't ignore the existence of DG if
>> you're going to do something procedurally.  I didn't reply at the
>> correct place in the thread, sorry for the confusion.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Raffaele Fragapane
>>  wrote:
>> > Sorry Luce-Eric, I have to disagree with this, and I find your
>> examples
>> > defeat your own argument.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship
> it and let them flee like the dogs they are!
>


>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it
> and let them flee like the dogs they are!
>

Re: A confession

[Raffaele Fragapane]

You have both G and Y, but it's one tool, two if they end up in different
buffers, in Soft if you have four or five things you're doing in a sequence
you can literally middle click your way through a lot of stuff.
It's not uncommon for operations that are equivalent in both apps to take
three or four times the clicks in Maya.


On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Ognjen Vukovic  wrote:

> If i recall correctly , the "g" key is a repeat last tool shortcut. Not
> the same but its something.
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 3:54 AM, Raffaele Fragapane <
> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> No, but if you think that's the worst wait until you see how selection
>> highlighting and hierarchies are treated :p
>>
>> Middle mouse button in Maya is largely a non-ui thing and has impactful
>> effects. Connecting things, changing the hierarchy in the outliner and so
>> on. It's not a bad use for it actually, drag'n'drop hierarchies in the
>> explorer are quick but I have on occasion cursed the feature (left click
>> scrolling on the other hand is unacceptably missing in Maya, where they
>> decided of all things to keep navigation consistent, so lots of alt middle
>> mouse dragging to pan a 2D view when left dragging open areas would have
>> been better).
>>
>> But yeah, middle click as a repeat last and toggle is immensely useful, I
>> miss it badly whenever I use Maya, important keys are sacrificed to shading
>> mode changes when in XSI you can just toggle the last two with a click and
>> intuitively set them without learning a new mechanic (shaded and hidden
>> line the two most common for me).
>> This is the kind of things I meant when I said XSI confronts you with an
>> extremely limited, consistent, yet non-restrictive set of things to learn
>> to interact with it. Last time I bothered defining a category and counting
>> when I was studying some UI and UE stuff Maya flagged at 16+ unique and
>> arbitrary models vs XSI's 4 or 5 (couldn't decide the parameters enough to
>> get a single number).
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 1:46 PM, Greg Punchatz wrote:
>>
>>> Raffaele!!  I am standing on my desk clapping...
>>>
>>> Does Maya have the middle mouse memory button on menus like softimage
>>> does? If not make that a top priority... there should be a law requiring
>>> that feature in every program...really.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 7:10 PM, Sebastien Sterling <
>>> sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Luc-Eric ?

 It seems to me modding the Maya UI to be more XSI inclined, poses it's
 own problems, I'm sure on the other side of the fence are a few Maya power
 users who would not take to kindly to seeing their workflow altered.

 How much can really be delivered by project H in your opinion ?

 Or will it be a CAD junkie ZEN paradigm ? the alternative streamline
 interface for Modo...





 On 19 March 2014 23:57, Adam Sale  wrote:

> + 1 Amen Brother + 1
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Raffaele Fragapane <
> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Fair enough, bit of crossed wires and sensitive souls converging then.
>> Still, please do fix that sh... stuff in Maya's UI :)
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau <
>> luceri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This is all fine, but I though I was replying to a situation of
>>> skipping over the basics, you can't ignore the existence of DG if
>>> you're going to do something procedurally.  I didn't reply at the
>>> correct place in the thread, sorry for the confusion.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Raffaele Fragapane
>>>  wrote:
>>> > Sorry Luce-Eric, I have to disagree with this, and I find your
>>> examples
>>> > defeat your own argument.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship
>> it and let them flee like the dogs they are!
>>
>
>

>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it
>> and let them flee like the dogs they are!
>>
>
>


-- 
Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it
and let them flee like the dogs they are!

Re: A confession

[Martin]

And you have both repeat (unmapped) and middle click repeat in SI.

Martin
Sent from my iPhone

> On 2014/03/20, at 12:19, Raffaele Fragapane  
> wrote:
> 
> You have both G and Y, but it's one tool, two if they end up in different 
> buffers, in Soft if you have four or five things you're doing in a sequence 
> you can literally middle click your way through a lot of stuff.
> It's not uncommon for operations that are equivalent in both apps to take 
> three or four times the clicks in Maya.
> 
> 
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Ognjen Vukovic  wrote:
>> If i recall correctly , the "g" key is a repeat last tool shortcut. Not the 
>> same but its something.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 3:54 AM, Raffaele Fragapane 
>>>  wrote:
>>> No, but if you think that's the worst wait until you see how selection 
>>> highlighting and hierarchies are treated :p
>>> 
>>> Middle mouse button in Maya is largely a non-ui thing and has impactful 
>>> effects. Connecting things, changing the hierarchy in the outliner and so 
>>> on. It's not a bad use for it actually, drag'n'drop hierarchies in the 
>>> explorer are quick but I have on occasion cursed the feature (left click 
>>> scrolling on the other hand is unacceptably missing in Maya, where they 
>>> decided of all things to keep navigation consistent, so lots of alt middle 
>>> mouse dragging to pan a 2D view when left dragging open areas would have 
>>> been better).
>>> 
>>> But yeah, middle click as a repeat last and toggle is immensely useful, I 
>>> miss it badly whenever I use Maya, important keys are sacrificed to shading 
>>> mode changes when in XSI you can just toggle the last two with a click and 
>>> intuitively set them without learning a new mechanic (shaded and hidden 
>>> line the two most common for me).
>>> This is the kind of things I meant when I said XSI confronts you with an 
>>> extremely limited, consistent, yet non-restrictive set of things to learn 
>>> to interact with it. Last time I bothered defining a category and counting 
>>> when I was studying some UI and UE stuff Maya flagged at 16+ unique and 
>>> arbitrary models vs XSI's 4 or 5 (couldn't decide the parameters enough to 
>>> get a single number).
>>> 
>>> 
 On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 1:46 PM, Greg Punchatz  wrote:
 Raffaele!!  I am standing on my desk clapping... 
 
 
 Does Maya have the middle mouse memory button on menus like softimage 
 does? If not make that a top priority... there should be a law requiring 
 that feature in every program...really.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 7:10 PM, Sebastien Sterling 
>  wrote:
> Luc-Eric ? 
> 
> It seems to me modding the Maya UI to be more XSI inclined, poses it's 
> own problems, I'm sure on the other side of the fence are a few Maya 
> power users who would not take to kindly to seeing their workflow altered.
> 
> How much can really be delivered by project H in your opinion ?
> 
> Or will it be a CAD junkie ZEN paradigm ? the alternative streamline 
> interface for Modo...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 19 March 2014 23:57, Adam Sale  wrote:
>> + 1 Amen Brother + 1
>> 
>> 
>>> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Raffaele Fragapane 
>>>  wrote:
>>> Fair enough, bit of crossed wires and sensitive souls converging then.
>>> Still, please do fix that sh... stuff in Maya's UI :)
>>> 
>>> 
 On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau 
  wrote:
 This is all fine, but I though I was replying to a situation of
 skipping over the basics, you can't ignore the existence of DG if
 you're going to do something procedurally.  I didn't reply at the
 correct place in the thread, sorry for the confusion.
 
 
 On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Raffaele Fragapane
  wrote:
 > Sorry Luce-Eric, I have to disagree with this, and I find your 
 > examples
 > defeat your own argument.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship 
>>> it and let them flee like the dogs they are!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it 
>>> and let them flee like the dogs they are!
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and 
> let them flee like the dogs they are!

RE: A confession

[Manuel Huertas Marchena]

"Ohh you really don't have to worry.  Maya has a single state of the art button 
solution!






Send to Softimage ->"

..ahahaha!!! that was good mate.




IMDB | Portfolio | Vimeo
| Linkedin


Subject: Re: A confession
From: furik...@gmail.com
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:25:08 +0900
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com

And you have both repeat (unmapped) and middle click repeat in SI.

MartinSent from my iPhone
On 2014/03/20, at 12:19, Raffaele Fragapane  wrote:

You have both G and Y, but it's one tool, two if they end up in different 
buffers, in Soft if you have four or five things you're doing in a sequence you 
can literally middle click your way through a lot of stuff.
It's not uncommon for operations that are equivalent in both apps to take three 
or four times the clicks in Maya.

On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Ognjen Vukovic  wrote:

If i recall correctly , the "g" key is a repeat last tool shortcut. Not the 
same but its something.



On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 3:54 AM, Raffaele Fragapane 
 wrote:



No, but if you think that's the worst wait until you see how selection 
highlighting and hierarchies are treated :p



Middle mouse button in Maya is largely a non-ui thing and has impactful 
effects. Connecting things, changing the hierarchy in the outliner and so on. 
It's not a bad use for it actually, drag'n'drop hierarchies in the explorer are 
quick but I have on occasion cursed the feature (left click scrolling on the 
other hand is unacceptably missing in Maya, where they decided of all things to 
keep navigation consistent, so lots of alt middle mouse dragging to pan a 2D 
view when left dragging open areas would have been better).




But yeah, middle click as a repeat last and toggle is immensely useful, I miss 
it badly whenever I use Maya, important keys are sacrificed to shading mode 
changes when in XSI you can just toggle the last two with a click and 
intuitively set them without learning a new mechanic (shaded and hidden line 
the two most common for me).



This is the kind of things I meant when I said XSI confronts you with an 
extremely limited, consistent, yet non-restrictive set of things to learn to 
interact with it. Last time I bothered defining a category and counting when I 
was studying some UI and UE stuff Maya flagged at 16+ unique and arbitrary 
models vs XSI's 4 or 5 (couldn't decide the parameters enough to get a single 
number).





On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 1:46 PM, Greg Punchatz  wrote:




Raffaele!!  I am standing on my desk clapping... 





Does Maya have the middle mouse memory button on menus like softimage does? If 
not make that a top priority... there should be a law requiring that feature in 
every program...really.












On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 7:10 PM, Sebastien Sterling 
 wrote:





Luc-Eric ? 

It seems to me modding the Maya UI to be more XSI inclined, poses it's own 
problems, I'm sure on the other side of the fence are a few Maya power users 
who would not take to kindly to seeing their workflow altered.







How much can really be delivered by project H in your opinion ?

Or will it be a CAD junkie ZEN paradigm ? the alternative streamline interface 
for Modo...







On 19 March 2014 23:57, Adam Sale  wrote:






+ 1 Amen Brother + 1


On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Raffaele Fragapane 
 wrote:








Fair enough, bit of crossed wires and sensitive souls converging then.Still, 
please do fix that sh... stuff in Maya's UI :)









On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau  wrote:









This is all fine, but I though I was replying to a situation of

skipping over the basics, you can't ignore the existence of DG if

you're going to do something procedurally.  I didn't reply at the

correct place in the thread, sorry for the confusion.





On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 6:32 PM, Raffaele Fragapane

 wrote:

> Sorry Luce-Eric, I have to disagree with this, and I find your examples

> defeat your own argument.



-- 
Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and 
let them flee like the dogs they are!


















-- 
Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and 
let them flee like the dogs they are!






-- 
Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and 
let them flee like the dogs they are!


  

Re: A confession

[Sebastien Sterling]

What makes me laugh it the continued addition of new skinning solvers,
without focusing on the main issue, the skinning tools themselves.

Most riggers i've met using Maya Don't use heat mapping, they prefer to
paint it all from scratch, cause they know that Maya's weight painting
workflow is so unpredictable, it isn't worth initiating a workflow with a
fancy new solver.

Ironically we modellers got a lot more use out of it for fast previews and
presentations, but we had to get a Rigger to script several bipases in
order for it to be functional.


On 20 March 2014 03:58, Manuel Huertas Marchena  wrote:

> "Ohh you really don't have to worry.  Maya has a single state of the art
> button solution!
>
>  Send to Softimage ->"
>
> ..ahahaha!!! that was good mate.
>
>
>
>
> IMDB <http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4755969/> | Portfolio
> <http://envmanu.com> <http://envmanu.carbonmade.com/>| 
> Vimeo<http://vimeo.com/manuelhuertasmarchena>|
> Linkedin <http://www.linkedin.com/in/manuelhuertas>
>
>
> --
> Subject: Re: A confession
> From: furik...@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:25:08 +0900
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>
>
> And you have both repeat (unmapped) and middle click repeat in SI.
>
> Martin
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 2014/03/20, at 12:19, Raffaele Fragapane 
> wrote:
>
> You have both G and Y, but it's one tool, two if they end up in different
> buffers, in Soft if you have four or five things you're doing in a sequence
> you can literally middle click your way through a lot of stuff.
> It's not uncommon for operations that are equivalent in both apps to take
> three or four times the clicks in Maya.
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Ognjen Vukovic  wrote:
>
> If i recall correctly , the "g" key is a repeat last tool shortcut. Not
> the same but its something.
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 3:54 AM, Raffaele Fragapane <
> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> No, but if you think that's the worst wait until you see how selection
> highlighting and hierarchies are treated :p
>
> Middle mouse button in Maya is largely a non-ui thing and has impactful
> effects. Connecting things, changing the hierarchy in the outliner and so
> on. It's not a bad use for it actually, drag'n'drop hierarchies in the
> explorer are quick but I have on occasion cursed the feature (left click
> scrolling on the other hand is unacceptably missing in Maya, where they
> decided of all things to keep navigation consistent, so lots of alt middle
> mouse dragging to pan a 2D view when left dragging open areas would have
> been better).
>
> But yeah, middle click as a repeat last and toggle is immensely useful, I
> miss it badly whenever I use Maya, important keys are sacrificed to shading
> mode changes when in XSI you can just toggle the last two with a click and
> intuitively set them without learning a new mechanic (shaded and hidden
> line the two most common for me).
> This is the kind of things I meant when I said XSI confronts you with an
> extremely limited, consistent, yet non-restrictive set of things to learn
> to interact with it. Last time I bothered defining a category and counting
> when I was studying some UI and UE stuff Maya flagged at 16+ unique and
> arbitrary models vs XSI's 4 or 5 (couldn't decide the parameters enough to
> get a single number).
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 1:46 PM, Greg Punchatz wrote:
>
> Raffaele!!  I am standing on my desk clapping...
>
> Does Maya have the middle mouse memory button on menus like softimage
> does? If not make that a top priority... there should be a law requiring
> that feature in every program...really.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 7:10 PM, Sebastien Sterling <
> sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Luc-Eric ?
>
> It seems to me modding the Maya UI to be more XSI inclined, poses it's own
> problems, I'm sure on the other side of the fence are a few Maya power
> users who would not take to kindly to seeing their workflow altered.
>
> How much can really be delivered by project H in your opinion ?
>
> Or will it be a CAD junkie ZEN paradigm ? the alternative streamline
> interface for Modo...
>
>
>
>
>
> On 19 March 2014 23:57, Adam Sale  wrote:
>
> + 1 Amen Brother + 1
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Raffaele Fragapane <
> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> Fair enough, bit of crossed wires and sensitive souls converging then.
> Still, please do fix that sh... stuff in Maya's UI :)
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 2

Re: A confession

[Raffaele Fragapane]

Heat Mapping didn't get a lot of use because it generally sucked, and yeah,
Maya skinning sucks, though it's more crappy and counter-intuitive than
unpredictable if you know how it works (it's not terribly buggy, just
downright crap).

Getting decent initial weights isn't something to throw away completely,
but yeah, it's a need that didn't need addressing anywhere as much as the
skinning data and tools need addressing, not by a long shot.

Soft's skinning has always been best of breed by an incredibly long shot,
which paints a stark picture since it's not exactly mind blowing, just the
rest out there is utter crap.

It is a lot easier to put something like the new geodesic skin gen in than
it is to revamp an entire subsystem that will need a re-do from scratch all
the way down to the way it saves and interprets data I guess.


On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Sebastien Sterling <
sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote:

> What makes me laugh it the continued addition of new skinning solvers,
> without focusing on the main issue, the skinning tools themselves.
>
> Most riggers i've met using Maya Don't use heat mapping, they prefer to
> paint it all from scratch, cause they know that Maya's weight painting
> workflow is so unpredictable, it isn't worth initiating a workflow with a
> fancy new solver.
>
> Ironically we modellers got a lot more use out of it for fast previews and
> presentations, but we had to get a Rigger to script several bipases in
> order for it to be functional.
>
>
> On 20 March 2014 03:58, Manuel Huertas Marchena wrote:
>
>> "Ohh you really don't have to worry.  Maya has a single state of the art
>> button solution!
>>
>>  Send to Softimage ->"
>>
>> ..ahahaha!!! that was good mate.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> IMDB <http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4755969/> | Portfolio
>> <http://envmanu.com> <http://envmanu.carbonmade.com/>| 
>> Vimeo<http://vimeo.com/manuelhuertasmarchena>|
>> Linkedin <http://www.linkedin.com/in/manuelhuertas>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Subject: Re: A confession
>> From: furik...@gmail.com
>> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:25:08 +0900
>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>>
>>
>> And you have both repeat (unmapped) and middle click repeat in SI.
>>
>> Martin
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 2014/03/20, at 12:19, Raffaele Fragapane 
>> wrote:
>>
>> You have both G and Y, but it's one tool, two if they end up in different
>> buffers, in Soft if you have four or five things you're doing in a sequence
>> you can literally middle click your way through a lot of stuff.
>> It's not uncommon for operations that are equivalent in both apps to take
>> three or four times the clicks in Maya.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Ognjen Vukovic wrote:
>>
>> If i recall correctly , the "g" key is a repeat last tool shortcut. Not
>> the same but its something.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 3:54 AM, Raffaele Fragapane <
>> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> No, but if you think that's the worst wait until you see how selection
>> highlighting and hierarchies are treated :p
>>
>> Middle mouse button in Maya is largely a non-ui thing and has impactful
>> effects. Connecting things, changing the hierarchy in the outliner and so
>> on. It's not a bad use for it actually, drag'n'drop hierarchies in the
>> explorer are quick but I have on occasion cursed the feature (left click
>> scrolling on the other hand is unacceptably missing in Maya, where they
>> decided of all things to keep navigation consistent, so lots of alt middle
>> mouse dragging to pan a 2D view when left dragging open areas would have
>> been better).
>>
>> But yeah, middle click as a repeat last and toggle is immensely useful, I
>> miss it badly whenever I use Maya, important keys are sacrificed to shading
>> mode changes when in XSI you can just toggle the last two with a click and
>> intuitively set them without learning a new mechanic (shaded and hidden
>> line the two most common for me).
>> This is the kind of things I meant when I said XSI confronts you with an
>> extremely limited, consistent, yet non-restrictive set of things to learn
>> to interact with it. Last time I bothered defining a category and counting
>> when I was studying some UI and UE stuff Maya flagged at 16+ unique and
>> arbitrary models vs XSI's 4 or 5 (couldn't decide the parameters enough to
>> get a s

Re: A confession

[Ognjen Vukovic]

>You have both G and Y, but it's one tool, two if they end up in different
buffers, in Soft if you have four or five things you're doing in a sequence
you can literally middle click your way through a lot >of stuff.
>It's not uncommon for operations that are equivalent in both apps to take
three or four times the clicks in Maya.

Very true.


On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 5:34 AM, Raffaele Fragapane <
raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Heat Mapping didn't get a lot of use because it generally sucked, and
> yeah, Maya skinning sucks, though it's more crappy and counter-intuitive
> than unpredictable if you know how it works (it's not terribly buggy, just
> downright crap).
>
> Getting decent initial weights isn't something to throw away completely,
> but yeah, it's a need that didn't need addressing anywhere as much as the
> skinning data and tools need addressing, not by a long shot.
>
> Soft's skinning has always been best of breed by an incredibly long shot,
> which paints a stark picture since it's not exactly mind blowing, just the
> rest out there is utter crap.
>
> It is a lot easier to put something like the new geodesic skin gen in than
> it is to revamp an entire subsystem that will need a re-do from scratch all
> the way down to the way it saves and interprets data I guess.
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Sebastien Sterling <
> sebastien.sterl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What makes me laugh it the continued addition of new skinning solvers,
>> without focusing on the main issue, the skinning tools themselves.
>>
>> Most riggers i've met using Maya Don't use heat mapping, they prefer to
>> paint it all from scratch, cause they know that Maya's weight painting
>> workflow is so unpredictable, it isn't worth initiating a workflow with a
>> fancy new solver.
>>
>> Ironically we modellers got a lot more use out of it for fast previews
>> and presentations, but we had to get a Rigger to script several bipases in
>> order for it to be functional.
>>
>>
>> On 20 March 2014 03:58, Manuel Huertas Marchena wrote:
>>
>>> "Ohh you really don't have to worry.  Maya has a single state of the art
>>> button solution!
>>>
>>>  Send to Softimage ->"
>>>
>>> ..ahahaha!!! that was good mate.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> IMDB <http://www.imdb.com/name/nm4755969/> | Portfolio
>>> <http://envmanu.com> <http://envmanu.carbonmade.com/>| 
>>> Vimeo<http://vimeo.com/manuelhuertasmarchena>|
>>> Linkedin <http://www.linkedin.com/in/manuelhuertas>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Subject: Re: A confession
>>> From: furik...@gmail.com
>>> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2014 12:25:08 +0900
>>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>>>
>>>
>>> And you have both repeat (unmapped) and middle click repeat in SI.
>>>
>>> Martin
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On 2014/03/20, at 12:19, Raffaele Fragapane 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  You have both G and Y, but it's one tool, two if they end up in
>>> different buffers, in Soft if you have four or five things you're doing in
>>> a sequence you can literally middle click your way through a lot of stuff.
>>> It's not uncommon for operations that are equivalent in both apps to
>>> take three or four times the clicks in Maya.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Ognjen Vukovic wrote:
>>>
>>> If i recall correctly , the "g" key is a repeat last tool shortcut. Not
>>> the same but its something.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 3:54 AM, Raffaele Fragapane <
>>> raffsxsil...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> No, but if you think that's the worst wait until you see how selection
>>> highlighting and hierarchies are treated :p
>>>
>>> Middle mouse button in Maya is largely a non-ui thing and has impactful
>>> effects. Connecting things, changing the hierarchy in the outliner and so
>>> on. It's not a bad use for it actually, drag'n'drop hierarchies in the
>>> explorer are quick but I have on occasion cursed the feature (left click
>>> scrolling on the other hand is unacceptably missing in Maya, where they
>>> decided of all things to keep navigation consistent, so lots of alt middle
>>> mouse dragging to pan a 2D view when left dragging open areas wo

Re: A confession

[denis-jose francois]

Hi All

So here's another ancient lurker suddenly rising from the depths. It's been
a while...

Alastair, it's definitely not you! For the last 3 years I have mostly
worked in non XSI pipelines. They include Modo, Houdini and more often than
not - Maya. Every now and then I get to work in XSI again... but sadly this
is less and less.

I had no trouble switching to Modo. I picked up Houdini very very quickly.
But Maya... its been 2 years and I am simply uncomfortable. I'm definitely
not an idiot (I tell myself this all the time) and I've been working in CG
since 1995. Interestingly, even though I started with soft3D back in the
early days I very quickly progressed to AW Power Animator. So I'm no
stranger to 'the other side'. Yet some how very simple things in Maya
allude me! And it's not helped by the shockingly poor documentation either.

Last summer I worked for a short stint at Sky. First time back on XSI (and
Arnold) in a couple of years. It was a really hard project, yet XSI made it
feel like I was on holiday compared to what I'd been doing before that!

I mostly work in pipeline these days and it amazes me how much work we have
to do bring functionality to Maya which is already there in XSI and other
packages. Of course, the fact that we *can* bring this functionality to
Maya is one of it's strengths, but what's the point of spending loads of
money on something that you can't really use without further modification?
If you are a small studio or a single user it just doesn't make sense.

I shall now return to the murky depths again...

Denis-Jose Francois











*
Denis-Jose François

Known to some as *@Hairytech*
Known to others as *+Denis-Jose*
Occasionally referred to as *Simon*
Always *The Evil Hood*

https://soundcloud.com/infiniversemedia


On 19 March 2014 09:32, Alastair Hearsum  wrote:

>  Folks
>
>  Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a
> little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin
> round it.
>
>  Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments in
> some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good
> position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example of
> the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first
> just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to
> bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all fingers
> and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down car waiting on a
> big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its not true. I do have a
> degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and physics at university and
> programmed extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
>
>  *I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere after
> I have applied n-cloth to it!*
>
>  Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced by
> people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the all
> encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are
> really fundamental problems and more important in some ways than headline
> large features.  Admittedly I had had a couple of glasses of wine by that
> point and it was a casual , before bedtime attempt to try something out but
> I had already twice asked my colleague at work to explain what the
> procedure was and I followed what he was doing at the time.
>
>  So there you have it. Is it me.?
>
>  Alastair
>
>  --
>  Alastair Hearsum
>  Head of 3d
> [image: GLASSWORKS]
>  33/34 Great Pulteney Street
> London
> W1F 9NP
> +44 (0)20 7434 1182
> glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
>  Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
>  (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25
> Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
>  Please consider the environment before you print this email.
>  DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private
> and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any
> views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not
> necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended
> recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that
> any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is
> strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please
> kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system.
>

Re: A confession

[Mirko Jankovic]

Maya seems to be more and more do-it yourself kit.. it's price should
reflect that as well
Buy starter kit - only Maya UI, you script everything else
grade 1 kit - you have modeling plugins! etc...


On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 9:45 AM, denis-jose francois wrote:

> Hi All
>
> So here's another ancient lurker suddenly rising from the depths. It's
> been a while...
>
> Alastair, it's definitely not you! For the last 3 years I have mostly
> worked in non XSI pipelines. They include Modo, Houdini and more often than
> not - Maya. Every now and then I get to work in XSI again... but sadly this
> is less and less.
>
> I had no trouble switching to Modo. I picked up Houdini very very quickly.
> But Maya... its been 2 years and I am simply uncomfortable. I'm definitely
> not an idiot (I tell myself this all the time) and I've been working in CG
> since 1995. Interestingly, even though I started with soft3D back in the
> early days I very quickly progressed to AW Power Animator. So I'm no
> stranger to 'the other side'. Yet some how very simple things in Maya
> allude me! And it's not helped by the shockingly poor documentation either.
>
> Last summer I worked for a short stint at Sky. First time back on XSI (and
> Arnold) in a couple of years. It was a really hard project, yet XSI made it
> feel like I was on holiday compared to what I'd been doing before that!
>
> I mostly work in pipeline these days and it amazes me how much work we
> have to do bring functionality to Maya which is already there in XSI and
> other packages. Of course, the fact that we *can* bring this functionality
> to Maya is one of it's strengths, but what's the point of spending loads of
> money on something that you can't really use without further modification?
> If you are a small studio or a single user it just doesn't make sense.
>
> I shall now return to the murky depths again...
>
> Denis-Jose Francois
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *
> Denis-Jose François
>
> Known to some as *@Hairytech*
> Known to others as *+Denis-Jose*
> Occasionally referred to as *Simon*
> Always *The Evil Hood*
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/infiniversemedia
>
>
> On 19 March 2014 09:32, Alastair Hearsum  wrote:
>
>>  Folks
>>
>>  Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a
>> little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin
>> round it.
>>
>>  Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments
>> in some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good
>> position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example of
>> the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first
>> just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to
>> bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all fingers
>> and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down car waiting on a
>> big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its not true. I do have a
>> degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and physics at university and
>> programmed extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
>>
>>  *I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere
>> after I have applied n-cloth to it!*
>>
>>  Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced
>> by people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the
>> all encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are
>> really fundamental problems and more important in some ways than headline
>> large features.  Admittedly I had had a couple of glasses of wine by that
>> point and it was a casual , before bedtime attempt to try something out but
>> I had already twice asked my colleague at work to explain what the
>> procedure was and I followed what he was doing at the time.
>>
>>  So there you have it. Is it me.?
>>
>>  Alastair
>>
>>  --
>>  Alastair Hearsum
>>  Head of 3d
>> [image: GLASSWORKS]
>>  33/34 Great Pulteney Street
>> London
>> W1F 9NP
>> +44 (0)20 7434 1182
>> glassworks.co.uk <http://www.glassworks.co.uk/>
>>  Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
>>  (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office
>> 25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
>>  Please consider the environment before you print this emai

Re: A confession

[Nicolas Esposito]

I want to have a positive attitude regarding the switch to Maya, but
watching some videotutorials on modeling, rigging, texturing, and so on,
and reading what you guys are saying I'm kinda scared...
Because what you're saying is that Maya out of the box is kind of crappy if
you don't script what you want...and thats the bad part, I don't know sh*t
about scripting, so my only option is to use it as it is...and then buy
plugins...
It's Max all over again :(


2014-03-20 10:09 GMT+01:00 Mirko Jankovic :

> Maya seems to be more and more do-it yourself kit.. it's price should
> reflect that as well
> Buy starter kit - only Maya UI, you script everything else
> grade 1 kit - you have modeling plugins! etc...
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 9:45 AM, denis-jose francois 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi All
>>
>> So here's another ancient lurker suddenly rising from the depths. It's
>> been a while...
>>
>> Alastair, it's definitely not you! For the last 3 years I have mostly
>> worked in non XSI pipelines. They include Modo, Houdini and more often than
>> not - Maya. Every now and then I get to work in XSI again... but sadly this
>> is less and less.
>>
>> I had no trouble switching to Modo. I picked up Houdini very very
>> quickly. But Maya... its been 2 years and I am simply uncomfortable. I'm
>> definitely not an idiot (I tell myself this all the time) and I've been
>> working in CG since 1995. Interestingly, even though I started with soft3D
>> back in the early days I very quickly progressed to AW Power Animator. So
>> I'm no stranger to 'the other side'. Yet some how very simple things in
>> Maya allude me! And it's not helped by the shockingly poor documentation
>> either.
>>
>> Last summer I worked for a short stint at Sky. First time back on XSI
>> (and Arnold) in a couple of years. It was a really hard project, yet XSI
>> made it feel like I was on holiday compared to what I'd been doing before
>> that!
>>
>> I mostly work in pipeline these days and it amazes me how much work we
>> have to do bring functionality to Maya which is already there in XSI and
>> other packages. Of course, the fact that we *can* bring this functionality
>> to Maya is one of it's strengths, but what's the point of spending loads of
>> money on something that you can't really use without further modification?
>> If you are a small studio or a single user it just doesn't make sense.
>>
>> I shall now return to the murky depths again...
>>
>> Denis-Jose Francois
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>> Denis-Jose François
>>
>> Known to some as *@Hairytech*
>> Known to others as *+Denis-Jose*
>> Occasionally referred to as *Simon*
>> Always *The Evil Hood*
>> 
>> https://soundcloud.com/infiniversemedia
>>
>>
>> On 19 March 2014 09:32, Alastair Hearsum wrote:
>>
>>>  Folks
>>>
>>>  Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a
>>> little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin
>>> round it.
>>>
>>>  Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments
>>> in some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good
>>> position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example of
>>> the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first
>>> just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to
>>> bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all fingers
>>> and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down car waiting on a
>>> big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its not true. I do have a
>>> degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and physics at university and
>>> programmed extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
>>>
>>>  *I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere
>>> after I have applied n-cloth to it!*
>>>
>>>  Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced
>>> by people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the
>>> all encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are
>>> really fundamental problems and more important in some ways than headline
>>> large features.  Admittedly I had had a couple o

Re: A confession

[Cristobal Infante]

Learn how to script! never a bad skill to have. Get raffaels
python tutorials from cgsociety...


On Thursday, 20 March 2014, Nicolas Esposito <3dv...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I want to have a positive attitude regarding the switch to Maya, but
> watching some videotutorials on modeling, rigging, texturing, and so on,
> and reading what you guys are saying I'm kinda scared...
> Because what you're saying is that Maya out of the box is kind of crappy
> if you don't script what you want...and thats the bad part, I don't know
> sh*t about scripting, so my only option is to use it as it is...and then
> buy plugins...
> It's Max all over again :(
>
>
> 2014-03-20 10:09 GMT+01:00 Mirko Jankovic 
> 
> >:
>
> Maya seems to be more and more do-it yourself kit.. it's price should
> reflect that as well
> Buy starter kit - only Maya UI, you script everything else
> grade 1 kit - you have modeling plugins! etc...
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 9:45 AM, denis-jose francois 
> wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> So here's another ancient lurker suddenly rising from the depths. It's
> been a while...
>
> Alastair, it's definitely not you! For the last 3 years I have mostly
> worked in non XSI pipelines. They include Modo, Houdini and more often than
> not - Maya. Every now and then I get to work in XSI again... but sadly this
> is less and less.
>
> I had no trouble switching to Modo. I picked up Houdini very very quickly.
> But Maya... its been 2 years and I am simply uncomfortable. I'm definitely
> not an idiot (I tell myself this all the time) and I've been working in CG
> since 1995. Interestingly, even though I started with soft3D back in the
> early days I very quickly progressed to AW Power Animator. So I'm no
> stranger to 'the other side'. Yet some how very simple things in Maya
> allude me! And it's not helped by the shockingly poor documentation either.
>
> Last summer I worked for a short stint at Sky. First time back on XSI (and
> Arnold) in a couple of years. It was a really hard project, yet XSI made it
> feel like I was on holiday compared to what I'd been doing before that!
>
> I mostly work in pipeline these days and it amazes me how much work we
> have to do bring functionality to Maya which is already there in XSI and
> other packages. Of course, the fact that we *can* bring this functionality
> to Maya is one of it's strengths, but what's the point of spending loads of
> money on something that you can't really use without further modification?
> If you are a small studio or a single user it just doesn't make sense.
>
> I shall now return to the murky depths again...
>
> Denis-Jose Francois
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *
> Denis-Jose François
>
> Known to some as *@Hairytech*
> Known to others as *+Denis-Jose*
> Occasionally referred to as *Simon*
> Always *The Evil Hood*
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/infiniversemedia
>
>
> On 19 March 2014 09:32, Alastair Hearsum  wrote:
>
>  Folks
>
>  Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a
> little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin
> round it.
>
>  Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments in
> some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good
> position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example of
> the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first
> just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to
> bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all fingers
> and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down car waiting on a
> big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its not true. I do have a
> degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and physics at university and
> programmed extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
>
>  *I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere after
> I have applied n-cloth to it!*
>
>  Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced by
> people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the all
> encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are
> really fundamenta
>
>
>

Re: A confession

[Oscar Juarez]

Yes, scripting will make your life much easier in general. Even just a
little bit here and there, and also can vouch for Raff's videos, they are
great.


On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Cristobal Infante wrote:

> Learn how to script! never a bad skill to have. Get raffaels
> python tutorials from cgsociety...
>
>
>
> On Thursday, 20 March 2014, Nicolas Esposito <3dv...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I want to have a positive attitude regarding the switch to Maya, but
>> watching some videotutorials on modeling, rigging, texturing, and so on,
>> and reading what you guys are saying I'm kinda scared...
>> Because what you're saying is that Maya out of the box is kind of crappy
>> if you don't script what you want...and thats the bad part, I don't know
>> sh*t about scripting, so my only option is to use it as it is...and then
>> buy plugins...
>> It's Max all over again :(
>>
>>
>> 2014-03-20 10:09 GMT+01:00 Mirko Jankovic :
>>
>> Maya seems to be more and more do-it yourself kit.. it's price should
>> reflect that as well
>> Buy starter kit - only Maya UI, you script everything else
>> grade 1 kit - you have modeling plugins! etc...
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 9:45 AM, denis-jose francois 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All
>>
>> So here's another ancient lurker suddenly rising from the depths. It's
>> been a while...
>>
>> Alastair, it's definitely not you! For the last 3 years I have mostly
>> worked in non XSI pipelines. They include Modo, Houdini and more often than
>> not - Maya. Every now and then I get to work in XSI again... but sadly this
>> is less and less.
>>
>> I had no trouble switching to Modo. I picked up Houdini very very
>> quickly. But Maya... its been 2 years and I am simply uncomfortable. I'm
>> definitely not an idiot (I tell myself this all the time) and I've been
>> working in CG since 1995. Interestingly, even though I started with soft3D
>> back in the early days I very quickly progressed to AW Power Animator. So
>> I'm no stranger to 'the other side'. Yet some how very simple things in
>> Maya allude me! And it's not helped by the shockingly poor documentation
>> either.
>>
>> Last summer I worked for a short stint at Sky. First time back on XSI
>> (and Arnold) in a couple of years. It was a really hard project, yet XSI
>> made it feel like I was on holiday compared to what I'd been doing before
>> that!
>>
>> I mostly work in pipeline these days and it amazes me how much work we
>> have to do bring functionality to Maya which is already there in XSI and
>> other packages. Of course, the fact that we *can* bring this functionality
>> to Maya is one of it's strengths, but what's the point of spending loads of
>> money on something that you can't really use without further modification?
>> If you are a small studio or a single user it just doesn't make sense.
>>
>> I shall now return to the murky depths again...
>>
>> Denis-Jose Francois
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *
>> Denis-Jose François
>>
>> Known to some as *@Hairytech*
>> Known to others as *+Denis-Jose*
>> Occasionally referred to as *Simon*
>> Always *The Evil Hood*
>> 
>> https://soundcloud.com/infiniversemedia
>>
>>
>> On 19 March 2014 09:32, Alastair Hearsum wrote:
>>
>>  Folks
>>
>>  Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a
>> little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin
>> round it.
>>
>>  Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments
>> in some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good
>> position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example of
>> the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first
>> just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to
>> bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all fingers
>> and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down car waiting on a
>> big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its not true. I do have a
>> degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and physics at university and
>> programmed extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
>>
>>  *I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere
>> after I have applied n-cloth to it!*
>>
>>  Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced
>> by people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the
>> all encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are
>> really fundamenta
>>
>>
>>

Re: A confession

[Nicolas Esposito]

 doing before
>>> that!
>>>
>>> I mostly work in pipeline these days and it amazes me how much work we
>>> have to do bring functionality to Maya which is already there in XSI and
>>> other packages. Of course, the fact that we *can* bring this functionality
>>> to Maya is one of it's strengths, but what's the point of spending loads of
>>> money on something that you can't really use without further modification?
>>> If you are a small studio or a single user it just doesn't make sense.
>>>
>>> I shall now return to the murky depths again...
>>>
>>> Denis-Jose Francois
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *
>>> Denis-Jose François
>>>
>>> Known to some as *@Hairytech*
>>> Known to others as *+Denis-Jose*
>>> Occasionally referred to as *Simon*
>>> Always *The Evil Hood*
>>> 
>>> https://soundcloud.com/infiniversemedia
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19 March 2014 09:32, Alastair Hearsum wrote:
>>>
>>>  Folks
>>>
>>>  Here is a confession. I've never used Maya! Not really. I've had a
>>> little poke every now and again but no more than make a sphere and spin
>>> round it.
>>>
>>>  Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish the value of my comments
>>> in some eyes but I think that , on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good
>>> position to appraise the software at a certain level. Here is an example of
>>> the trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first
>>> just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I like to
>>> bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is technically all fingers
>>> and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her broken down car waiting on a
>>> big strong man to help her out. The truth is that its not true. I do have a
>>> degree in Fine Art but I also studied maths and physics at university and
>>> programmed extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
>>>
>>>  *I'm on my third night trying to adjust the resolution of a sphere
>>> after I have applied n-cloth to it!*
>>>
>>>  Isn't that incredible?  Its one example plucked from many experienced
>>> by people I work with who can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the
>>> all encompassing interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are
>>> really fundamenta
>>>
>>>
>>>
>

Re: A confession

[Greg Maguire]

I've worked with Maya since alpha versions and I was also on the board of
advisors for Sumatra, although I didn't use XSI until a few years later. I
cut my teeth on VAX, TDI Explore, Wavefront and Soft 3D. I'm very familiar
with proprietary software and in-house tools at large studios. I now spend
some of my time teaching 3D computer animation through Maya at university.

We had a tough time with the decisions that Maya developers made during
it's alpha development. We drew their attention to the 180-axis-flipping of
drawn bones to them immediately but they refused to change it because they
didn't consider it broken as it was "just the way the algorithm works". It
had nothing to do with usability. Still to this day, users still write
scripts to get around this shortcoming.

On the other hand, the Maya devs jumped through hoops to re-create
splineIK, a method I designed and implemented in Soft 3D. Personally, I'd
prefer a stable set of small tools that work consistently, than a lot of
'powerful' tools that are only half implemented.

Viewing it through this particular lens, I believe Maya was written with
the computer in mind and not the user. Luc Eric has suggested that
parenting and constraint selection makes sense and I do see his point of
view. However, Maya at it's core, feels like it was written with a terse a
syntax as unix's 'dc' (desk calculator). i.e. in reverse polish notation
instead of the more human readable infix notation.

1) Reverse Polish Notation:
> 1 1 + = 2
> value value operator
> select select command

2) Infix Notation:
> 1 + 1 = 2
> value operator value
> select command select

Watching the development of Maya over the next few years, the developers
definitely had XSI in their rear view mirror. They tried to implement
features from XSI into Maya. However, this was done extremely poorly and
resulted in a tick box exercise. One result of this has been Trax. Trax's
core issue is that it maps nodes to indices. i.e. it's version of Actions,
Clips, isn't name-based but it's based on order of initial selection. So,
it works immediately in a demo but doesn't in production when rigs are
evolving. The work around for this is a lot of scripts... scripts to record
and store selections and selection order. Scripts to rebuild clips, scripts
to rebuild timelines etc. Trax, eventually went in for an overhaul and we
were looking forward to it becoming a useful tool but alas it's core issue
was never tackled and it remains under utilised. But more importantly, Maya
users have never been exposed to a really great tool that actually works.
They now all assume non-linear editing is a broken toy.

Until, Maya devs focus on human usability, Maya will always be a struggle
for a lot of users.
-- 

*Greg Maguire* | Inlifesize
Mobile: +44 7512 361462 | Phone: +44 2890 204739
g...@inlifesize.com | www.inlifesize.com

Re: A confession

[Stefan Kubicek]

thout further modification? If you are a small studio or a single user it just doesn't make sense.





I shall now return to the murky depths again...Denis-Jose Francois


*Denis-Jose FrançoisKnown to some as @HairytechKnown to others as +Denis-JoseOccasionally referred to as SimonAlways The Evil Hood





--------https://soundcloud.com/infiniversemedia
On 19 March 2014 09:32, Alastair Hearsum <hear...@glassworks.co.uk> wrote:



  


  
  
Folks
 Here is a confession. I've never
  used Maya! Not really. I've had a little poke every now and again
  but no more than make a sphere and spin round it. 
 Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may
  diminish the value of my comments in some eyes but I think that ,
  on the contrary, it puts me in quite a good position to appraise
  the software at a certain level. Here is an example of the trouble
  I'm having that may bring a smile to people's faces. But first
  just a couple of more sentences before I reveal my difficulty. I
  like to bill myself as the sensitive artist/animator who is
  technically all fingers and thumbs, like the woman by the side of
  her broken down car waiting on a big strong man to help her out.
  The truth is that its not true. I do have a degree in Fine Art but
  I also studied maths and physics at university and programmed
  extensively in Lisp in my first job. So I'm not stupid BUT:
 I'm on my third night trying to
adjust the resolution of a sphere after I have applied n-cloth
to it!
 Isn't that incredible?  Its one
  example plucked from many experienced by people I work with who
  can and have used Maya. Its symptomatic of the all encompassing
  interface workflow issues that Maya has that I think are really
  fundamenta



-- ---   Stefan Kubicek---   keyvis digital imagery  Alfred Feierfeilstraße 3   A-2380 Perchtoldsdorf bei Wien Phone:+43/699/12614231  www.keyvis.at  ste...@keyvis.at--  This email and its attachments are   confidential and for the recipient only--

Re: A confession

[Rob Wuijster]

They include Modo, Houdini and more often than not
- Maya. Every now and then I get to work in XSI
again... but sadly this is less and less.

I had no trouble switching to Modo. I picked up
Houdini very very quickly. But Maya... its been 2
years and I am simply uncomfortable. I'm
definitely not an idiot (I tell myself this all
the time) and I've been working in CG since 1995.
Interestingly, even though I started with soft3D
back in the early days I very quickly progressed
to AW Power Animator. So I'm no stranger to 'the
other side'. Yet some how very simple things in
Maya allude me! And it's not helped by the
shockingly poor documentation either.

Last summer I worked for a short stint at Sky.
First time back on XSI (and Arnold) in a couple of
years. It was a really hard project, yet XSI made
it feel like I was on holiday compared to what I'd
been doing before that!

I mostly work in pipeline these days and it amazes
me how much work we have to do bring functionality
to Maya which is already there in XSI and other
packages. Of course, the fact that we *can* bring
this functionality to Maya is one of it's
strengths, but what's the point of spending loads
of money on something that you can't really use
without further modification? If you are a small
studio or a single user it just doesn't make sense.

I shall now return to the murky depths again...

Denis-Jose Francois











*
Denis-Jose François

Known to some as /@Hairytech/
Known to others as /+Denis-Jose/
Occasionally referred to as /Simon/
Always /*The Evil Hood*/

https://soundcloud.com/infiniversemedia


On 19 March 2014 09:32, Alastair Hearsum
 wrote:

Folks

 Here is a confession. I've never used Maya!
Not really. I've had a little poke every now
and again but no more than make a sphere and
spin round it.

 Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish
the value of my comments in some eyes but I
think that , on the contrary, it puts me in
quite a good position to appraise the software
at a certain level. Here is an example of the
trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to
people's faces. But first just a couple of
more sentences before I reveal my difficulty.
I like to bill myself as the sensitive
artist/animator who is technically all fingers
and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her
broken down car waiting on a big strong man to
help her out. The truth is that its not true.
I do have a degree in Fine Art but I also
studied maths and physics at university and
programmed extensively in Lisp in my first
job. So I'm not stupid BUT:

*I'm on my third night trying to adjust the
resolution of a sphere after I have applied
n-cloth to it!*

 Isn't that incredible?  Its one example
plucked from many experienced by people I work
with who can and have used Maya. Its
symptomatic of the all encompassing interface
workflow issues that Maya has that I think are
really fundamenta




No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
Version: 2014.0.4336 / Virus Database: 3722/7218 - Release Date: 03/19/14

Re: A confession

[Alastair Hearsum]

thankyou


Alastair Hearsum
Head of 3d
GLASSWORKS
33/34 Great Pulteney Street
London
W1F 9NP
+44 (0)20 7434 1182
glassworks.co.uk 
Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
(Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 
25 Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)

Please consider the environment before you print this email.
DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private 
and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). 
Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do 
not necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the 
intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in 
error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying 
of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received 
in error please kindly return it to the sender and delete this message 
from your system.

On 19/03/2014 22:32, Raffaele Fragapane wrote:
Sorry Luce-Eric, I have to disagree with this, and I find your 
examples defeat your own argument.
I have had years to develop muscle memory in Maya, and I'm comfortable 
nearly anywhere in the software, at least everywhere I might need to 
be, and it's still very frequently an uphill struggle.


Maya is hugely inconsistent, especially in the views you mention, 
compared to Softimage.
You can get to decent operational speed in Maya, but a double digit 
number of years in I still have to write a script for something at 
least once a week... when it can be written at all.


The main problem is twofold. The first part is that Maya absolutely 
requires you become a power user with an intimate understanding of the 
choices and modes of operation to be fluid when working. There is no 
hints to shortcuts, the shortcut editor is a mess, A LOT of absolutely 
key day one stuff is simply not available in the interface (if you 
don't watch a tutorial you will never find you need insert and x,c,v 
on a constant basis), and in general it actively discourages 
exploration by being punishing of any single mistake.
Comparatively speaking Soft is a lot more in your face and immediate. 
Even if you don't know the software you can usually bumble your way 
around into finding what you need and first develop knowledge of 
what's available, and then developing muscle memory through simple 
repetition.


The second part is developing muscle memory itself.
You're a UI guy, I'm sure you've read your literature on user 
experience, learning patterns, conditioning and so on.
XSI will generally confront you with about four or five key 
interaction models, and it hardly ever excepts them. Everything is a 
sticky key, every menu unfolds and works the same way, every panel 
toggles and offers options the same way and has functionality 
aggregated nearby that is generally understandable and correlated by 
similar rules.

Conversely, Maya requires constant exceptions to learning.
Altering interaction, which should all be part of the same learning 
group, is inconsistent. Some modifiers are sticky. Snapping is 
semi-sticky, as in it sticks only if you enter snapping before you 
draw/drag, whereas some things are completely non sticky, such as 
moving a pivot.
Menus are generally click through, unless you access them from the 
hotbox, in which case they are, uselessly, hold-to-traverse.


I could write you a long list, but my point is that while I do find 
people being excessively contrary and biased, but can't blame them for 
it given the situation, lets not pretend Maya's user experience is 
comparable but different: it simply isn't, and there's work to do. 
Hopefully H-Maya will go part or all the way to address it, but there 
are some very, very fundamental issues that worked their way backwards 
into the actual functional guts of Maya coming from its extremely 
poor, inconsistent, frustratingly fragmented and arbitrary interaction 
model.


The GUI itself is probably not even worth discussing in depth. I mean, 
no arbitrary viewport arrangement after 16 years? F'in Seriously? And 
if you want me to use the stupid buttons on the left you're not even 
providing one with the left view vertical and a horizontal split on 
the right? Only the opposite. Come on, Luc, get on it and fix that 
shit already :p You did infinitely better work than this on XSI, bring 
it to Maya if you want people to use and don't be dismissive of 
people's opinions by saying you can only compare power-user 
experiences (beside the fact a Soft Power User will run circles around 
a Maya one in nearly any task when it comes to interaction).



On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 1:45 AM, Luc-Eric Rousseau 
mailto:luceri...@gmail.com>> wrote:


None of these products are for newbies; we spent years learning
Softimage. Sounds like you wanted to edit a history node, doing a
procedural modification. You'd open the n

Re: A confession

[Nicolas Esposito]

Hi Rob,

Thank you very much for the answer...I guess it'll be plugins until I learn
to script and customize Maya the way I want unfortunately


2014-03-20 12:04 GMT+01:00 Alastair Hearsum :

>  thankyou
>
>
>
>  Alastair Hearsum
>  Head of 3d
> [image: GLASSWORKS]
>  33/34 Great Pulteney Street
> London
> W1F 9NP
> +44 (0)20 7434 1182
> glassworks.co.uk 
>  Glassworks Terms and Conditions of Sale can be found at glassworks.co.uk
>  (Company registered in England with number 04759979. Registered office 25
> Harley Street, London, W1G 9BR. VAT registration number: 86729)
>  Please consider the environment before you print this email.
>  DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and attachments are strictly privileged, private
> and confidential and are intended solely for the stated recipient(s). Any
> views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not
> necessarily represent those of the Company. If you are not the intended
> recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that
> any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is
> strictly prohibited. If this transmission is received in error please
> kindly return it to the sender and delete this message from your system.
>  On 19/03/2014 22:32, Raffaele Fragapane wrote:
>
> Sorry Luce-Eric, I have to disagree with this, and I find your examples
> defeat your own argument.
> I have had years to develop muscle memory in Maya, and I'm comfortable
> nearly anywhere in the software, at least everywhere I might need to be,
> and it's still very frequently an uphill struggle.
>
>  Maya is hugely inconsistent, especially in the views you mention,
> compared to Softimage.
> You can get to decent operational speed in Maya, but a double digit number
> of years in I still have to write a script for something at least once a
> week... when it can be written at all.
>
>  The main problem is twofold. The first part is that Maya absolutely
> requires you become a power user with an intimate understanding of the
> choices and modes of operation to be fluid when working. There is no hints
> to shortcuts, the shortcut editor is a mess, A LOT of absolutely key day
> one stuff is simply not available in the interface (if you don't watch a
> tutorial you will never find you need insert and x,c,v on a constant
> basis), and in general it actively discourages exploration by being
> punishing of any single mistake.
> Comparatively speaking Soft is a lot more in your face and immediate. Even
> if you don't know the software you can usually bumble your way around into
> finding what you need and first develop knowledge of what's available, and
> then developing muscle memory through simple repetition.
>
>  The second part is developing muscle memory itself.
> You're a UI guy, I'm sure you've read your literature on user experience,
> learning patterns, conditioning and so on.
>  XSI will generally confront you with about four or five key interaction
> models, and it hardly ever excepts them. Everything is a sticky key, every
> menu unfolds and works the same way, every panel toggles and offers options
> the same way and has functionality aggregated nearby that is generally
> understandable and correlated by similar rules.
> Conversely, Maya requires constant exceptions to learning.
> Altering interaction, which should all be part of the same learning group,
> is inconsistent. Some modifiers are sticky. Snapping is semi-sticky, as in
> it sticks only if you enter snapping before you draw/drag, whereas some
> things are completely non sticky, such as moving a pivot.
> Menus are generally click through, unless you access them from the hotbox,
> in which case they are, uselessly, hold-to-traverse.
>
>  I could write you a long list, but my point is that while I do find
> people being excessively contrary and biased, but can't blame them for it
> given the situation, lets not pretend Maya's user experience is comparable
> but different: it simply isn't, and there's work to do. Hopefully H-Maya
> will go part or all the way to address it, but there are some very, very
> fundamental issues that worked their way backwards into the actual
> functional guts of Maya coming from its extremely poor, inconsistent,
> frustratingly fragmented and arbitrary interaction model.
>
>  The GUI itself is probably not even worth discussing in depth. I mean,
> no arbitrary viewport arrangement after 16 years? F'in Seriously? And if
> you want me to use the stupid buttons on the left you're not even providing
> one with the left view vertical and a horizontal split on the right? Only
> the opposite. Come on, Luc, get on it and fix that shit already :p You did
> infinitely better work than this on XSI, bring it to Maya if you want
> people to use and don't be dismissive of people's opinions by saying you
> can only compare power-user experiences (beside the fact a Soft Power User
> will run circles around a Maya one in nearly 

Re: A confession

[Siew Yi Liang]

 a short stint at Sky.
First time back on XSI (and Arnold) in a couple of
years. It was a really hard project, yet XSI made
it feel like I was on holiday compared to what I'd
been doing before that!

I mostly work in pipeline these days and it amazes
me how much work we have to do bring functionality
to Maya which is already there in XSI and other
packages. Of course, the fact that we *can* bring
this functionality to Maya is one of it's
strengths, but what's the point of spending loads
of money on something that you can't really use
without further modification? If you are a small
studio or a single user it just doesn't make sense.

I shall now return to the murky depths again...

Denis-Jose Francois











*
Denis-Jose François

Known to some as /@Hairytech/
Known to others as /+Denis-Jose/
Occasionally referred to as /Simon/
Always /*The Evil Hood*/

https://soundcloud.com/infiniversemedia


On 19 March 2014 09:32, Alastair Hearsum
 wrote:

Folks

 Here is a confession. I've never used Maya!
Not really. I've had a little poke every now
and again but no more than make a sphere and
spin round it.

 Now, the lack of Maya knowledge may diminish
the value of my comments in some eyes but I
think that , on the contrary, it puts me in
quite a good position to appraise the software
at a certain level. Here is an example of the
trouble I'm having that may bring a smile to
people's faces. But first just a couple of
more sentences before I reveal my difficulty.
I like to bill myself as the sensitive
artist/animator who is technically all fingers
and thumbs, like the woman by the side of her
broken down car waiting on a big strong man to
help her out. The truth is that its not true.
I do have a degree in Fine Art but I also
studied maths and physics at university and
programmed extensively in Lisp in my first
job. So I'm not stupid BUT:

*I'm on my third night trying to adjust the
resolution of a sphere after I have applied
n-cloth to it!*

 Isn't that incredible?  Its one example
plucked from many experienced by people I work
with who can and have used Maya. Its
symptomatic of the all encompassing interface
workflow issues that Maya has that I think are
really fundamenta

Re: A confession

[Greg Punchatz]

"Just learn to script"

It's not that easy for every one... 

My brain simply does not work that way, I would rather keep polishing my art 
skills and learn all the amazing new painting tools  than learn to script. 
Being person with dyslexia makes its more than a bit difficult for me to jump 
on the scripting train.

All this talk of the reality of the need for constant scripting as part of your 
daily work flows in Maya makes me literally sick to my stomach 

Sent from my iPhone

>>  

Re: A confession

[Perry Harovas]

Which is, in no small way, part of the reason I left Maya in the first
place.
Yes, scripting would be great to know (and my brain doesn't work that way,
either), but how about a DCC that doesn't require you to know how to script
to be
productive (hell, forget productive, to even DO some things at all)!?

So that, and the constant crashes with rendering, the inconsistent workflow
(pick this first, or that first???)
and the utter lack of regard for the user who doesn't fit the profile of a
large client are large parts of why I stopped using Maya.

I am totally with you on this one Greg.
I have been sick since this whole thing started.





On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 8:42 AM, Greg Punchatz  wrote:

> "Just learn to script"
>
> It's not that easy for every one...
>
> My brain simply does not work that way, I would rather keep polishing my
> art skills and learn all the amazing new painting tools  than learn to
> script. Being person with dyslexia makes its more than a bit difficult for
> me to jump on the scripting train.
>
> All this talk of the reality of the need for constant scripting as part of
> your daily work flows in Maya makes me literally sick to my stomach
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>>
>>


-- 





Perry Harovas
Animation and Visual Effects

http://www.TheAfterImage.com 

Re: A confession

[Raffaele Fragapane]

Plenty people manage without or with primitive copy and paste macro style
hacks and downloads, it's not strictly necessary.
It is true though that while in XSI it's a nice skill to have but not
strictly necessary for most trivial talks, Maya has some areas convoluted
enough that you really want to hook a few bits together or automate some
clicks to not go insane.
Again, it's not strictly necessary, don't worry, it just makes a more
appreciable difference at a much earlier parts of the toolset you've come
to take for granted in Soft. No tool out there, sadly, matches that level
of completeness without sacrificing power, and likely none ever will until
the game will have changed considerably and software and process will be
different.

XSI was unarguably the last real end to end app.
On 20 Mar 2014 23:43, "Greg Punchatz"  wrote:

> "Just learn to script"
>
> It's not that easy for every one...
>
> My brain simply does not work that way, I would rather keep polishing my
> art skills and learn all the amazing new painting tools  than learn to
> script. Being person with dyslexia makes its more than a bit difficult for
> me to jump on the scripting train.
>
> All this talk of the reality of the need for constant scripting as part of
> your daily work flows in Maya makes me literally sick to my stomach
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>>
>>

Re: A confession

[Nicolas Esposito]

What surprises me is that Maya, as far as I know, has a quite large user
base, from small guy at home to big studios, and honestly I thought that
Maya ( out of the box ) was more friendly and not so clunky to work
with...but I guess compare the workflow between SI and Maya is not so fair
at this point, since the non-linear workflow has proven to be way more
efficient then the traditional workflow


2014-03-20 14:09 GMT+01:00 Perry Harovas :

> Which is, in no small way, part of the reason I left Maya in the first
> place.
> Yes, scripting would be great to know (and my brain doesn't work that way,
> either), but how about a DCC that doesn't require you to know how to script
> to be
> productive (hell, forget productive, to even DO some things at all)!?
>
> So that, and the constant crashes with rendering, the inconsistent
> workflow (pick this first, or that first???)
> and the utter lack of regard for the user who doesn't fit the profile of a
> large client are large parts of why I stopped using Maya.
>
> I am totally with you on this one Greg.
> I have been sick since this whole thing started.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 8:42 AM, Greg Punchatz wrote:
>
>> "Just learn to script"
>>
>> It's not that easy for every one...
>>
>> My brain simply does not work that way, I would rather keep polishing my
>> art skills and learn all the amazing new painting tools  than learn to
>> script. Being person with dyslexia makes its more than a bit difficult for
>> me to jump on the scripting train.
>>
>> All this talk of the reality of the need for constant scripting as part
>> of your daily work flows in Maya makes me literally sick to my stomach
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
> Perry Harovas
> Animation and Visual Effects
>
> http://www.TheAfterImage.com 
>
>

Re: A confession

[Martin Yara]

Big Studios use Maya because they have an R&D department to create their
own tools and build a solid pipeline around Maya. Small guy uses Maya is
because Big Studios does, with the difference that he doesn't have a R&D
department so he works slow and clunky.

The reason may be because he can work with / for big studios, or he just
though he could create his own avengers movie like ILM when he learned the
software, and he just doesn't know better.

And since he doesn't know better he thinks it is normal to have to look for
a script in creativecrash, so he can save weights by location, freeze, edit
the topology, add polygons, re-skin, load weights, tweak weights if
necessary.

All of this so he can edit a weighted character, and in SI we just edit the
topology.

Maya is getting a little better though. I mean it was awful a few years
ago, now it is getting a little decent at least for modeling. But I still
wouldn't model in Maya. I would prefer to deal with FBX or send to Maya
problems and work in SI.

BTW, most Maya modelers I know, can't script more than copy & paste from
the log. And it is good enough to work. But to work almost at the same
speed than SI (without ICE) you'll need to learn scripting, or spend a few
hours in creativecrash looking for free plugins every now and then.

Martin




On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 10:16 PM, Nicolas Esposito <3dv...@gmail.com> wrote:

> What surprises me is that Maya, as far as I know, has a quite large user
> base, from small guy at home to big studios, and honestly I thought that
> Maya ( out of the box ) was more friendly and not so clunky to work
> with...but I guess compare the workflow between SI and Maya is not so fair
> at this point, since the non-linear workflow has proven to be way more
> efficient then the traditional workflow
>
>
> 2014-03-20 14:09 GMT+01:00 Perry Harovas :
>
> Which is, in no small way, part of the reason I left Maya in the first
>> place.
>> Yes, scripting would be great to know (and my brain doesn't work that
>> way, either), but how about a DCC that doesn't require you to know how to
>> script to be
>> productive (hell, forget productive, to even DO some things at all)!?
>>
>> So that, and the constant crashes with rendering, the inconsistent
>> workflow (pick this first, or that first???)
>> and the utter lack of regard for the user who doesn't fit the profile of
>> a large client are large parts of why I stopped using Maya.
>>
>> I am totally with you on this one Greg.
>> I have been sick since this whole thing started.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 8:42 AM, Greg Punchatz wrote:
>>
>>> "Just learn to script"
>>>
>>> It's not that easy for every one...
>>>
>>> My brain simply does not work that way, I would rather keep polishing my
>>> art skills and learn all the amazing new painting tools  than learn to
>>> script. Being person with dyslexia makes its more than a bit difficult for
>>> me to jump on the scripting train.
>>>
>>> All this talk of the reality of the need for constant scripting as part
>>> of your daily work flows in Maya makes me literally sick to my stomach
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>>


>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Perry Harovas
>> Animation and Visual Effects
>>
>> http://www.TheAfterImage.com 
>>
>>
>

Re: A confession

[Morten Bartholdy]

+1

IMHO scripting is for making crappy software work at all (Maya) and for
creating something special with good software that has buttons for all the
ordinary stuff (XSI).
I simply don't have time to learn scripting, not least because my mind
doesn't lend itself to that kind of thinking and remembering syntax etc. My
time is better spent figuring out how to do great stuff with ICE. The only
scripting I do is some half arsed copy pasting from the script editor to
facilitate unified pass setups across multiple shots and similar stuff on
that level. That I can do :)

Morten





Den 20. marts 2014 kl. 13:42 skrev Greg Punchatz :

> "Just learn to script"
> 
> It's not that easy for every one...
> 
> My brain simply does not work that way, I would rather keep polishing my
> art skills and learn all the amazing new painting tools  than learn to
> script. Being person with dyslexia makes its more than a bit difficult for
> me to jump on the scripting train.
> 
> All this talk of the reality of the need for constant scripting as part of
> your daily work flows in Maya makes me literally sick to my stomach
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > > 
> > > 

Re: A confession

[Mirko Jankovic]

but why scripting is new artist tool!
REAL artist model in full screen text editor! who needs viewport at all
start notepad, and begin typing coordinates for each vertex...
that is how REAL hardcore stuff is done.

buttons are for p...


On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Morten Bartholdy wrote:

>   +1
>
>
>
> IMHO scripting is for making crappy software work at all (Maya) and for
> creating something special with good software that has buttons for all the
> ordinary stuff (XSI).
>
> I simply don't have time to learn scripting, not least because my mind
> doesn't lend itself to that kind of thinking and remembering syntax etc. My
> time is better spent figuring out how to do great stuff with ICE. The only
> scripting I do is some half arsed copy pasting from the script editor to
> facilitate unified pass setups across multiple shots and similar stuff on
> that level. That I can do :)
>
>
>
> Morten
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Den 20. marts 2014 kl. 13:42 skrev Greg Punchatz :
>
>  "Just learn to script"
>
> It's not that easy for every one...
>
> My brain simply does not work that way, I would rather keep polishing my
> art skills and learn all the amazing new painting tools  than learn to
> script. Being person with dyslexia makes its more than a bit difficult for
> me to jump on the scripting train.
>
>  All this talk of the reality of the need for constant scripting as part
> of your daily work flows in Maya makes me literally sick to my stomach
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: A confession

[Adam Sale]

Something I have found in the last couple weeks, which I personally find
mind numbing is how tied to UVs some tools are.

Hair work... try and groom something, and then realize you need to tweak
your UVs. Gotta start over
Painting weights. Gotta have UV's to do smoothing.  - Edit the Uv's.. start
over.




On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mirko Jankovic
wrote:

> but why scripting is new artist tool!
> REAL artist model in full screen text editor! who needs viewport at all
> start notepad, and begin typing coordinates for each vertex...
> that is how REAL hardcore stuff is done.
>
> buttons are for p...
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Morten Bartholdy wrote:
>
>>   +1
>>
>>
>>
>> IMHO scripting is for making crappy software work at all (Maya) and for
>> creating something special with good software that has buttons for all the
>> ordinary stuff (XSI).
>>
>> I simply don't have time to learn scripting, not least because my mind
>> doesn't lend itself to that kind of thinking and remembering syntax etc. My
>> time is better spent figuring out how to do great stuff with ICE. The only
>> scripting I do is some half arsed copy pasting from the script editor to
>> facilitate unified pass setups across multiple shots and similar stuff on
>> that level. That I can do :)
>>
>>
>>
>> Morten
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Den 20. marts 2014 kl. 13:42 skrev Greg Punchatz :
>>
>>  "Just learn to script"
>>
>> It's not that easy for every one...
>>
>> My brain simply does not work that way, I would rather keep polishing my
>> art skills and learn all the amazing new painting tools  than learn to
>> script. Being person with dyslexia makes its more than a bit difficult for
>> me to jump on the scripting train.
>>
>>  All this talk of the reality of the need for constant scripting as part
>> of your daily work flows in Maya makes me literally sick to my stomach
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: A confession

[David Gallagher]

Exactly. For example, in Maya there is no object to cluster constraint, 
so you have to use a 3rd party tool Rivet to attach things to geometry. 
But if you need to apply a Smooth to render it in the Maya renderer, it 
explodes.

So, don't use the Maya renderer, or...
You can use djRivet, which uses follicles intead of edges, but which 
relies on UV's being present.

Works great.. until you change the UVs in any way.

Not really a non-linear workflow. It's more like a circular workflow.



On 3/20/2014 10:22 AM, Adam Sale wrote:
Something I have found in the last couple weeks, which I personally 
find mind numbing is how tied to UVs some tools are.


Hair work... try and groom something, and then realize you need to 
tweak your UVs. Gotta start over
Painting weights. Gotta have UV's to do smoothing.  - Edit the Uv's.. 
start over.





On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mirko Jankovic 
mailto:mirkoj.anima...@gmail.com>> wrote:


but why scripting is new artist tool!
REAL artist model in full screen text editor! who needs viewport
at all
start notepad, and begin typing coordinates for each vertex...
that is how REAL hardcore stuff is done.

buttons are for p...


On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Morten Bartholdy
mailto:x...@colorshopvfx.dk>> wrote:

+1

IMHO scripting is for making crappy software work at all
(Maya) and for creating something special with good software
that has buttons for all the ordinary stuff (XSI).

I simply don't have time to learn scripting, not least because
my mind doesn't lend itself to that kind of thinking and
remembering syntax etc. My time is better spent figuring out
how to do great stuff with ICE. The only scripting I do is
some half arsed copy pasting from the script editor to
facilitate unified pass setups across multiple shots and
similar stuff on that level. That I can do :)

Morten


Den 20. marts 2014 kl. 13:42 skrev Greg Punchatz
mailto:g...@janimation.com>>:

"Just learn to script"
It's not that easy for every one...
My brain simply does not work that way, I would rather
keep polishing my art skills and learn all the amazing new
painting tools  than learn to script. Being person with
dyslexia makes its more than a bit difficult for me to
jump on the scripting train.
All this talk of the reality of the need for constant
scripting as part of your daily work flows in Maya makes
me literally sick to my stomach

Sent from my iPhone

Re: A confession

[Jordi Bares]

You must be joking!!!

:-ARghghhgh

Jordi Bares
jordiba...@gmail.com

On 20 Mar 2014, at 16:59, David Gallagher  wrote:

> 
> Exactly. For example, in Maya there is no object to cluster constraint, so 
> you have to use a 3rd party tool Rivet to attach things to geometry. But if 
> you need to apply a Smooth to render it in the Maya renderer, it explodes.
> So, don't use the Maya renderer, or...
> You can use djRivet, which uses follicles intead of edges, but which relies 
> on UV's being present.
> Works great.. until you change the UVs in any way.
> 
> Not really a non-linear workflow. It's more like a circular workflow.
> 
> 
> 
> On 3/20/2014 10:22 AM, Adam Sale wrote:
>> Something I have found in the last couple weeks, which I personally find 
>> mind numbing is how tied to UVs some tools are.
>>  
>> Hair work... try and groom something, and then realize you need to tweak 
>> your UVs. Gotta start over 
>> Painting weights. Gotta have UV's to do smoothing.  - Edit the Uv's.. start 
>> over. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mirko Jankovic  
>> wrote:
>> but why scripting is new artist tool!
>> REAL artist model in full screen text editor! who needs viewport at all
>> start notepad, and begin typing coordinates for each vertex...
>> that is how REAL hardcore stuff is done.
>> 
>> buttons are for p...
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Morten Bartholdy  
>> wrote:
>> +1
>>  
>> IMHO scripting is for making crappy software work at all (Maya) and for 
>> creating something special with good software that has buttons for all the 
>> ordinary stuff (XSI).
>> I simply don't have time to learn scripting, not least because my mind 
>> doesn't lend itself to that kind of thinking and remembering syntax etc. My 
>> time is better spent figuring out how to do great stuff with ICE. The only 
>> scripting I do is some half arsed copy pasting from the script editor to 
>> facilitate unified pass setups across multiple shots and similar stuff on 
>> that level. That I can do :)
>>  
>> Morten
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> Den 20. marts 2014 kl. 13:42 skrev Greg Punchatz : 
>> 
>> "Just learn to script"
>>  
>> It's not that easy for every one... 
>>  
>> My brain simply does not work that way, I would rather keep polishing my art 
>> skills and learn all the amazing new painting tools  than learn to script. 
>> Being person with dyslexia makes its more than a bit difficult for me to 
>> jump on the scripting train.
>>  
>> All this talk of the reality of the need for constant scripting as part of 
>> your daily work flows in Maya makes me literally sick to my stomach  
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
> 

RE: A confession

[Matt Lind]

I think the key phrase is 'Maya renderer' - who uses that anymore?

I'm almost positive there is an equivalent to object to cluster constraint out 
of the box in Maya.  I think it's classified as a deformer for meshes (wrap?), 
but I cannot say for sure as it's been many years since I've had to use  it.


Matt




From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Jordi Bares
Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 11:47 AM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Re: A confession

You must be joking!!!

:-ARghghhgh

Jordi Bares
jordiba...@gmail.com<mailto:jordiba...@gmail.com>

On 20 Mar 2014, at 16:59, David Gallagher 
mailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com>> wrote:



Exactly. For example, in Maya there is no object to cluster constraint, so you 
have to use a 3rd party tool Rivet to attach things to geometry. But if you 
need to apply a Smooth to render it in the Maya renderer, it explodes.
So, don't use the Maya renderer, or...
You can use djRivet, which uses follicles intead of edges, but which relies 
on UV's being present.
Works great.. until you change the UVs in any way.

Not really a non-linear workflow. It's more like a circular workflow.



On 3/20/2014 10:22 AM, Adam Sale wrote:
Something I have found in the last couple weeks, which I personally find mind 
numbing is how tied to UVs some tools are.

Hair work... try and groom something, and then realize you need to tweak your 
UVs. Gotta start over
Painting weights. Gotta have UV's to do smoothing.  - Edit the Uv's.. start 
over.


On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mirko Jankovic 
mailto:mirkoj.anima...@gmail.com>> wrote:
but why scripting is new artist tool!
REAL artist model in full screen text editor! who needs viewport at all
start notepad, and begin typing coordinates for each vertex...
that is how REAL hardcore stuff is done.

buttons are for p...

On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Morten Bartholdy 
mailto:x...@colorshopvfx.dk>> wrote:
+1


IMHO scripting is for making crappy software work at all (Maya) and for 
creating something special with good software that has buttons for all the 
ordinary stuff (XSI).
I simply don't have time to learn scripting, not least because my mind doesn't 
lend itself to that kind of thinking and remembering syntax etc. My time is 
better spent figuring out how to do great stuff with ICE. The only scripting I 
do is some half arsed copy pasting from the script editor to facilitate unified 
pass setups across multiple shots and similar stuff on that level. That I can 
do :)


Morten







Den 20. marts 2014 kl. 13:42 skrev Greg Punchatz 
mailto:g...@janimation.com>>:
"Just learn to script"

It's not that easy for every one...

My brain simply does not work that way, I would rather keep polishing my art 
skills and learn all the amazing new painting tools  than learn to script. 
Being person with dyslexia makes its more than a bit difficult for me to jump 
on the scripting train.

All this talk of the reality of the need for constant scripting as part of your 
daily work flows in Maya makes me literally sick to my stomach

Sent from my iPhone

Re: A confession

[David Gallagher]

Let me know if you find one.

On 3/21/2014 12:51 PM, Matt Lind wrote:


I think the key phrase is 'Maya renderer' -- who uses that anymore?

I'm almost positive there is an equivalent to object to cluster 
constraint out of the box in Maya.  I think it's classified as a 
deformer for meshes (wrap?), but I cannot say for sure as it's been 
many years since I've had to use  it.


Matt

*From:*softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of *Jordi 
Bares

*Sent:* Friday, March 21, 2014 11:47 AM
*To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
*Subject:* Re: A confession

You must be joking!!!

:-ARghghhgh

Jordi Bares

jordiba...@gmail.com <mailto:jordiba...@gmail.com>

On 20 Mar 2014, at 16:59, David Gallagher 
mailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com>> 
wrote:





Exactly. For example, in Maya there is no object to cluster 
constraint, so you have to use a 3rd party tool Rivet to attach things 
to geometry. But if you need to apply a Smooth to render it in the 
Maya renderer, it explodes.

So, don't use the Maya renderer, or...
You can use djRivet, which uses follicles intead of edges, but which 
relies on UV's being present.

Works great.. until you change the UVs in any way.

Not really a non-linear workflow. It's more like a circular workflow.



On 3/20/2014 10:22 AM, Adam Sale wrote:

Something I have found in the last couple weeks, which I
personally find mind numbing is how tied to UVs some tools are.

Hair work... try and groom something, and then realize you need to
tweak your UVs. Gotta start over

Painting weights. Gotta have UV's to do smoothing.  - Edit the
Uv's.. start over.

On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mirko Jankovic
mailto:mirkoj.anima...@gmail.com>> wrote:

but why scripting is new artist tool!

REAL artist model in full screen text editor! who needs viewport
at all

start notepad, and begin typing coordinates for each vertex...

that is how REAL hardcore stuff is done.

buttons are for p...

On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Morten Bartholdy
mailto:x...@colorshopvfx.dk>> wrote:

+1

IMHO scripting is for making crappy software work at all (Maya)
and for creating something special with good software that has
buttons for all the ordinary stuff (XSI).

I simply don't have time to learn scripting, not least because my
mind doesn't lend itself to that kind of thinking and remembering
syntax etc. My time is better spent figuring out how to do great
stuff with ICE. The only scripting I do is some half arsed copy
pasting from the script editor to facilitate unified pass setups
across multiple shots and similar stuff on that level. That I can
do :)

Morten


Den 20. marts 2014 kl. 13:42 skrev Greg Punchatz
mailto:g...@janimation.com>>:

"Just learn to script"

It's not that easy for every one...

My brain simply does not work that way, I would rather keep
polishing my art skills and learn all the amazing new painting
tools  than learn to script. Being person with dyslexia makes
its more than a bit difficult for me to jump on the scripting
train.

All this talk of the reality of the need for constant
scripting as part of your daily work flows in Maya makes me
literally sick to my stomach

Sent from my iPhone

Re: A confession

[Adam Sale]

Point to poly constraints?
On Mar 21, 2014 12:15 PM, "David Gallagher" 
wrote:

>
> Let me know if you find one.
>
> On 3/21/2014 12:51 PM, Matt Lind wrote:
>
>  I think the key phrase is 'Maya renderer' - who uses that anymore?
>
>
>
> I'm almost positive there is an equivalent to object to cluster constraint
> out of the box in Maya.  I think it's classified as a deformer for meshes
> (wrap?), but I cannot say for sure as it's been many years since I've had
> to use  it.
>
>
>
>
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [
> mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com]
> *On Behalf Of *Jordi Bares
> *Sent:* Friday, March 21, 2014 11:47 AM
> *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> *Subject:* Re: A confession
>
>
>
> You must be joking!!!
>
>
>
> :-ARghghhgh
>
>
>
> Jordi Bares
>
> jordiba...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> On 20 Mar 2014, at 16:59, David Gallagher 
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Exactly. For example, in Maya there is no object to cluster constraint, so
> you have to use a 3rd party tool Rivet to attach things to geometry. But if
> you need to apply a Smooth to render it in the Maya renderer, it explodes.
> So, don't use the Maya renderer, or...
> You can use djRivet, which uses follicles intead of edges, but which
> relies on UV's being present.
> Works great.. until you change the UVs in any way.
>
> Not really a non-linear workflow. It's more like a circular workflow.
>
>
>
> On 3/20/2014 10:22 AM, Adam Sale wrote:
>
>   Something I have found in the last couple weeks, which I personally
> find mind numbing is how tied to UVs some tools are.
>
>
> Hair work... try and groom something, and then realize you need to tweak
> your UVs. Gotta start over
>
> Painting weights. Gotta have UV's to do smoothing.  - Edit the Uv's..
> start over.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mirko Jankovic 
> wrote:
>
> but why scripting is new artist tool!
>
> REAL artist model in full screen text editor! who needs viewport at all
>
> start notepad, and begin typing coordinates for each vertex...
>
> that is how REAL hardcore stuff is done.
>
>
>
> buttons are for p...
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Morten Bartholdy 
> wrote:
>
> +1
>
>
>
> IMHO scripting is for making crappy software work at all (Maya) and for
> creating something special with good software that has buttons for all the
> ordinary stuff (XSI).
>
> I simply don't have time to learn scripting, not least because my mind
> doesn't lend itself to that kind of thinking and remembering syntax etc. My
> time is better spent figuring out how to do great stuff with ICE. The only
> scripting I do is some half arsed copy pasting from the script editor to
> facilitate unified pass setups across multiple shots and similar stuff on
> that level. That I can do :)
>
>
>
> Morten
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Den 20. marts 2014 kl. 13:42 skrev Greg Punchatz :
>
>  "Just learn to script"
>
>
>
> It's not that easy for every one...
>
>
>
> My brain simply does not work that way, I would rather keep polishing my
> art skills and learn all the amazing new painting tools  than learn to
> script. Being person with dyslexia makes its more than a bit difficult for
> me to jump on the scripting train.
>
>
>
> All this talk of the reality of the need for constant scripting as part of
> your daily work flows in Maya makes me literally sick to my stomach
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: A confession

[David Gallagher]

That looks good!
I haven't been keeping up with new features in Maya, so that's great.


On 3/21/2014 1:48 PM, Adam Sale wrote:


Point to poly constraints?

On Mar 21, 2014 12:15 PM, "David Gallagher" 
mailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com>> 
wrote:



Let me know if you find one.

On 3/21/2014 12:51 PM, Matt Lind wrote:


I think the key phrase is 'Maya renderer' -- who uses that anymore?

I'm almost positive there is an equivalent to object to cluster
constraint out of the box in Maya.  I think it's classified as a
deformer for meshes (wrap?), but I cannot say for sure as it's
been many years since I've had to use  it.

Matt

*From:*softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of
*Jordi Bares
*Sent:* Friday, March 21, 2014 11:47 AM
*To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
    <mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
*Subject:* Re: A confession

You must be joking!!!

:-ARghghhgh

Jordi Bares

jordiba...@gmail.com <mailto:jordiba...@gmail.com>

On 20 Mar 2014, at 16:59, David Gallagher
mailto:davegsoftimagel...@gmail.com>> wrote:




Exactly. For example, in Maya there is no object to cluster
constraint, so you have to use a 3rd party tool Rivet to attach
things to geometry. But if you need to apply a Smooth to render
it in the Maya renderer, it explodes.
So, don't use the Maya renderer, or...
You can use djRivet, which uses follicles intead of edges, but
which relies on UV's being present.
Works great.. until you change the UVs in any way.

Not really a non-linear workflow. It's more like a circular workflow.



On 3/20/2014 10:22 AM, Adam Sale wrote:

Something I have found in the last couple weeks, which I
personally find mind numbing is how tied to UVs some tools are.

Hair work... try and groom something, and then realize you
need to tweak your UVs. Gotta start over

Painting weights. Gotta have UV's to do smoothing.  - Edit
the Uv's.. start over.

On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mirko Jankovic
mailto:mirkoj.anima...@gmail.com>> wrote:

but why scripting is new artist tool!

REAL artist model in full screen text editor! who needs
viewport at all

start notepad, and begin typing coordinates for each vertex...

that is how REAL hardcore stuff is done.

buttons are for p...

On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Morten Bartholdy
mailto:x...@colorshopvfx.dk>> wrote:

+1

IMHO scripting is for making crappy software work at all
(Maya) and for creating something special with good software
that has buttons for all the ordinary stuff (XSI).

I simply don't have time to learn scripting, not least
because my mind doesn't lend itself to that kind of thinking
and remembering syntax etc. My time is better spent figuring
out how to do great stuff with ICE. The only scripting I do
is some half arsed copy pasting from the script editor to
facilitate unified pass setups across multiple shots and
similar stuff on that level. That I can do :)

Morten


Den 20. marts 2014 kl. 13:42 skrev Greg Punchatz
mailto:g...@janimation.com>>:

"Just learn to script"

It's not that easy for every one...

My brain simply does not work that way, I would rather
keep polishing my art skills and learn all the amazing
new painting tools  than learn to script. Being person
with dyslexia makes its more than a bit difficult for me
to jump on the scripting train.

All this talk of the reality of the need for constant
scripting as part of your daily work flows in Maya makes
me literally sick to my stomach

Sent from my iPhone

Re: A confession

[Adam Sale]

They still rely on uv sets though... ugh.
On Mar 21, 2014 1:11 PM, "David Gallagher" 
wrote:

>
> That looks good!
> I haven't been keeping up with new features in Maya, so that's great.
>
>
> On 3/21/2014 1:48 PM, Adam Sale wrote:
>
> Point to poly constraints?
> On Mar 21, 2014 12:15 PM, "David Gallagher" 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Let me know if you find one.
>>
>> On 3/21/2014 12:51 PM, Matt Lind wrote:
>>
>>  I think the key phrase is 'Maya renderer' - who uses that anymore?
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm almost positive there is an equivalent to object to cluster
>> constraint out of the box in Maya.  I think it's classified as a deformer
>> for meshes (wrap?), but I cannot say for sure as it's been many years since
>> I've had to use  it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [
>> mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com]
>> *On Behalf Of *Jordi Bares
>> *Sent:* Friday, March 21, 2014 11:47 AM
>> *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>> *Subject:* Re: A confession
>>
>>
>>
>> You must be joking!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> :-ARghghhgh
>>
>>
>>
>> Jordi Bares
>>
>> jordiba...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On 20 Mar 2014, at 16:59, David Gallagher 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Exactly. For example, in Maya there is no object to cluster constraint,
>> so you have to use a 3rd party tool Rivet to attach things to geometry. But
>> if you need to apply a Smooth to render it in the Maya renderer, it
>> explodes.
>> So, don't use the Maya renderer, or...
>> You can use djRivet, which uses follicles intead of edges, but which
>> relies on UV's being present.
>> Works great.. until you change the UVs in any way.
>>
>> Not really a non-linear workflow. It's more like a circular workflow.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/20/2014 10:22 AM, Adam Sale wrote:
>>
>>   Something I have found in the last couple weeks, which I personally
>> find mind numbing is how tied to UVs some tools are.
>>
>>
>> Hair work... try and groom something, and then realize you need to tweak
>> your UVs. Gotta start over
>>
>> Painting weights. Gotta have UV's to do smoothing.  - Edit the Uv's..
>> start over.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mirko Jankovic <
>> mirkoj.anima...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> but why scripting is new artist tool!
>>
>> REAL artist model in full screen text editor! who needs viewport at all
>>
>> start notepad, and begin typing coordinates for each vertex...
>>
>> that is how REAL hardcore stuff is done.
>>
>>
>>
>> buttons are for p...
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Morten Bartholdy 
>> wrote:
>>
>> +1
>>
>>
>>
>> IMHO scripting is for making crappy software work at all (Maya) and for
>> creating something special with good software that has buttons for all the
>> ordinary stuff (XSI).
>>
>> I simply don't have time to learn scripting, not least because my mind
>> doesn't lend itself to that kind of thinking and remembering syntax etc. My
>> time is better spent figuring out how to do great stuff with ICE. The only
>> scripting I do is some half arsed copy pasting from the script editor to
>> facilitate unified pass setups across multiple shots and similar stuff on
>> that level. That I can do :)
>>
>>
>>
>> Morten
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Den 20. marts 2014 kl. 13:42 skrev Greg Punchatz :
>>
>>  "Just learn to script"
>>
>>
>>
>> It's not that easy for every one...
>>
>>
>>
>> My brain simply does not work that way, I would rather keep polishing my
>> art skills and learn all the amazing new painting tools  than learn to
>> script. Being person with dyslexia makes its more than a bit difficult for
>> me to jump on the scripting train.
>>
>>
>>
>> All this talk of the reality of the need for constant scripting as part
>> of your daily work flows in Maya makes me literally sick to my stomach
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: A confession

[soni...@gmail.com]

Hi all:

I'm not sure, but I personally find the point to poly constraint very 
unreliable/unpredictable (also I believe that relies on uvs and geometry 
density as well). I don't want to keep sounding like I'm preaching, but the 
hyperrealmeshparent script by Terence Jacobson has saved me a few times already 
when I've needed such a function that standard hair follicle rivets could not 
solve.

Yes, its not available ootb, but it hasn't failed me so far, so there's that... 
:p worth at least trying out!



- Reply message -
From: "David Gallagher" 
To: 
Subject: A confession
Date: Fri, Mar 21, 2014 13:11
That looks good!

I haven't been keeping up with new features in Maya, so that's
great.





On 3/21/2014 1:48 PM, Adam Sale wrote:



Point to poly constraints? 
On Mar 21, 2014 12:15 PM, "David
Gallagher" 
wrote:




Let me know if you find one.



On 3/21/2014 12:51 PM, Matt Lind wrote:




I
think the key phrase is ‘Maya renderer’ – who uses
that anymore?

I’m

almost positive there is an equivalent to object to
cluster constraint out of the box in Maya.  I think
it’s classified as a deformer for meshes (wrap?),
but I cannot say for sure as it’s been many years
since I’ve had to use  it.


Matt






From:
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com]
On Behalf Of Jordi Bares

Sent: Friday, March 21, 2014 11:47 AM

To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com

Subject: Re: A confession



You must be joking!!!




:-ARghghhgh






Jordi

Bares


jordiba...@gmail.com






On 20 Mar 2014, at 16:59,
David Gallagher 

wrote:










Exactly. For example, in Maya there is no
object to cluster constraint, so you have to
use a 3rd party tool Rivet to attach things to
geometry. But if you need to apply a Smooth to
render it in the Maya renderer, it explodes.

So, don't use the Maya renderer, or...

You can use djRivet, which uses follicles
intead of edges, but which relies on UV's
being present.

Works great.. until you change the UVs in any
way.



Not really a non-linear workflow. It's more
like a circular workflow.







On 3/20/2014 10:22 AM, Adam Sale wrote:





Something I have
found in the last couple weeks, which I
personally find mind numbing is how tied
to UVs some tools are.



Hair work... try and
groom something, and then realize you need
to tweak your UVs. Gotta start over 

Painting
weights. Gotta have UV's to do smoothing.  -
Edit the Uv's.. start over. 








On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at
9:02 AM, Mirko Jankovic 

wrote:

but why scripting is
new artist tool! 

REAL artist model
in full screen text editor! who needs
viewport at all


start notepad, and
begin typing coordinates for each
vertex...


that is how REAL
hardcore stuff is done.





buttons are for
p...







On Thu, Mar 20,
2014 at 4:34 PM, Morten Bartholdy


wrote:


+1 




IMHO
scripting is for making crappy
software work at all (Maya)
and for creating something
special with good software
that has buttons for all the
ordinary stuff (XSI). 


I simply
don't have time to learn
scripting, not least because
my mind doesn't lend itself to
that kind of thinking and
remembering syntax etc. My
time is better spent figuring
out how to do great stuff with
ICE. The only scripting I do
is some half arsed copy
pasting from the script editor
to facilitate unified pass
setups across multiple shots
and similar stuff on that
level. That I can do :) 




Morten 










Den 20. marts 2014 kl. 13:42
skrev Greg Punchatz :





"Just
learn to script"





It's
not that easy for every
one... 





My
brain simply does not
work that way, I would
rather keep polishing my
art skills and learn all
the amazing new painting
tools  than learn to
script. Being person
with dyslexia makes its
more than a bit
difficult for me to jump
on the scripting train.





All
this talk of the reality
of the need for constant
scripting as part of
your daily work flows in
Maya makes me literally
sick to my stomach 




Sent from my iPhone

Re: A confession

[Enrique Caballero]

if i need to use the cluster constraint i usually use an intermediary mesh,
and wherever i constrain i create a poly with a kind of star pattern to it.
 i find that it gives me a more stable rotation with minimal flipping.

its not the ideal solution im sure, but im always in a rush, and it seems
to work well.

with that said, i avoid it like the plague


On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 7:23 AM, soni...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hi all:
>
> I'm not sure, but I personally find the point to poly constraint very
> unreliable/unpredictable (also I believe that relies on uvs and geometry
> density as well). I don't want to keep sounding like I'm preaching, but the
> hyperrealmeshparent script by Terence Jacobson has saved me a few times
> already when I've needed such a function that standard hair follicle rivets
> could not solve.
>
> Yes, its not available ootb, but it hasn't failed me so far, so there's
> that... :p worth at least trying out!
>
>
> - Reply message -
> From: "David Gallagher" 
> To: 
> Subject: A confession
> Date: Fri, Mar 21, 2014 13:11
>
>
>
> That looks good!
> I haven't been keeping up with new features in Maya, so that's great.
>
>
> On 3/21/2014 1:48 PM, Adam Sale wrote:
>
> Point to poly constraints?
> On Mar 21, 2014 12:15 PM, "David Gallagher" 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Let me know if you find one.
>>
>> On 3/21/2014 12:51 PM, Matt Lind wrote:
>>
>>  I think the key phrase is 'Maya renderer' - who uses that anymore?
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm almost positive there is an equivalent to object to cluster
>> constraint out of the box in Maya.  I think it's classified as a deformer
>> for meshes (wrap?), but I cannot say for sure as it's been many years since
>> I've had to use  it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [
>> mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com]
>> *On Behalf Of *Jordi Bares
>> *Sent:* Friday, March 21, 2014 11:47 AM
>> *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>> *Subject:* Re: A confession
>>
>>
>>
>> You must be joking!!!
>>
>>
>>
>> :-ARghghhgh
>>
>>
>>
>> Jordi Bares
>>
>> jordiba...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On 20 Mar 2014, at 16:59, David Gallagher 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Exactly. For example, in Maya there is no object to cluster constraint,
>> so you have to use a 3rd party tool Rivet to attach things to geometry. But
>> if you need to apply a Smooth to render it in the Maya renderer, it
>> explodes.
>> So, don't use the Maya renderer, or...
>> You can use djRivet, which uses follicles intead of edges, but which
>> relies on UV's being present.
>> Works great.. until you change the UVs in any way.
>>
>> Not really a non-linear workflow. It's more like a circular workflow.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/20/2014 10:22 AM, Adam Sale wrote:
>>
>>   Something I have found in the last couple weeks, which I personally
>> find mind numbing is how tied to UVs some tools are.
>>
>>
>> Hair work... try and groom something, and then realize you need to tweak
>> your UVs. Gotta start over
>>
>> Painting weights. Gotta have UV's to do smoothing.  - Edit the Uv's..
>> start over.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Mirko Jankovic <
>> mirkoj.anima...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> but why scripting is new artist tool!
>>
>> REAL artist model in full screen text editor! who needs viewport at all
>>
>> start notepad, and begin typing coordinates for each vertex...
>>
>> that is how REAL hardcore stuff is done.
>>
>>
>>
>> buttons are for p...
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 20, 2014 at 4:34 PM, Morten Bartholdy 
>> wrote:
>>
>> +1
>>
>>
>>
>> IMHO scripting is for making crappy software work at all (Maya) and for
>> creating something special with good software that has buttons for all the
>> ordinary stuff (XSI).
>>
>> I simply don't have time to learn scripting, not least because my mind
>> doesn't lend itself to that kind of thinking and remembering syntax etc. My
>> time is better spent figuring out how to do great stuff with ICE. The only
>> scripting I do is some half arsed copy pasting from the script editor to
>> facilitate unified pass setups across multiple shots and similar stuff on
>> that level. That I can do :)
>>
>>
>>
>> Morten
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Den 20. marts 2014 kl. 13:42 skrev Greg Punchatz :
>>
>>  "Just learn to script"
>>
>>
>>
>> It's not that easy for every one...
>>
>>
>>
>> My brain simply does not work that way, I would rather keep polishing my
>> art skills and learn all the amazing new painting tools  than learn to
>> script. Being person with dyslexia makes its more than a bit difficult for
>> me to jump on the scripting train.
>>
>>
>>
>> All this talk of the reality of the need for constant scripting as part
>> of your daily work flows in Maya makes me literally sick to my stomach
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: A confession

[Cesar Saez]

The hyperrealmeshparent script does something similar, it average de
vertices around the zone (trying to minimize flipping issues I guess),
create a loft between the 2 closest parallel-ish edges and finally
constraint the object to that surface. It's done in such a way that it
never pass the calculated data to a shape node so you don't see the
auxiliary geometry, but the low level nodes are there.