RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

[Morten Bartholdy]

What you mention here resonates well with my findings so far. Even a lot of the 
tools and functionality I see implemented from Softimage in later versions of 
Maya tend to be Mayarized, ie. packaged up in the nonsensical way of having to 
open several windows from submenus to submenus, instead of the direct context 
sensitive way we know it from Softimage. I guess this is in order to not break 
the workflow the large Maya userbase is accustomed to, but it provides a poor 
UI experience.

After 2+ months of Maya transition I think I have only found one feature where 
I think Maya shines: Inserting edgeloops + to some degree the way the Arnold 
RenderView is implemented. The rest is pure rubbish. Granted, I have not delved 
far into modeling yet, and from what I read it is quite strong, but that 
remains to be found out.

Not a happy camper -
Morten




> Den 9. oktober 2017 klokken 13:32 skrev Brent McPherson 
> <brent.mcpher...@autodesk.com>:
> 
> 
> That is definitely part of the problem.
> 
> Existing customers become accustomed to the multi-step workflows (many which 
> have been there from the beginning) and so these basic workflow issues don't 
> tend to get logged or mentioned but they are more obvious to customers 
> migrating from another software package.
> 
> When I worked in Maya modeling we definitely paid attention to the 
> small-annoying-things-to-fix-in-maya and the ideas-for-maya forums and would 
> address items that aligned with our goals for a particular release.
> 
> https://mayafeedback.autodesk.com/forums/160518-small-annoying-things-to-fix-in-maya-forum
> https://mayafeedback.autodesk.com/forums/160514-ideas-for-maya-forum
> --
> Brent
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Morten Bartholdy
> Sent: 09 October 2017 11:59
> To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist=DwIFAg=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA=UFigILe-df1wqnzGj84aTEiN_Sft6gzmozB3_XN3m7c=I5HvOi-JHRkYG59rNeIrGKW3vrCD4Ep1gVKjClkonlE=
>  <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
> Subject: RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots
> 
> Well I think there is no doubt Maya was groundbreaking at the time, and given 
> that the Sumatra team was delayed by the Digital Studio efforts, Maya was the 
> new software chosen by a ripe market. It is just sad to see how bad Maya 
> still is so many years on, compared to the smooth workflow in XSI.
> 
> I have our Maya people proudly showing me absolutely lame unintuitive 
> multistep workflow solutions to really simple tasks which would take one 
> click, or a hotkey, interaction and be done in Softimage. It is mindboggling 
> that professional developers have come up with so many counterproductive 
> workflows, but I guess it is testiment to the genius of the Softimage core 
> dev team.
> 
> Morten
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Den 6. oktober 2017 klokken 17:09 skrev Steven Caron <car...@gmail.com>:
> > 
> > 
> > I an pretty sure Brent helped ship Maya 1.0... so maybe he isn't sane 
> > or a 'Softimage man'.
> > 
> > :P
> > 
> > 
> > *written with my thumbs
> > 
> > 
> > On Oct 6, 2017 7:45 AM, "Morten Bartholdy" <x...@colorshopvfx.dk> wrote:
> > 
> > Being a former Softimage man, I'd peg you as at least a lot(!) more 
> > rational and logical than the other species of software dev's ;)
> > 
> > Morten
> > 
> > 
> > > Den 6. oktober 2017 klokken 14:30 skrev Brent McPherson <
> > brent.mcpher...@autodesk.com>:
> > >
> > >
> > > Huh? Where did you get the impression I'm sane! :-O
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
> > > [mailto:softimage-bounces@
> > listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Morten Bartholdy
> > > Sent: 06 October 2017 13:05
> > > To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
> > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__urldefense.proofpoint=DwIBaQ=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA=V2nXQ3LG2UuEiHAogrnDPhrDLjwmCkcpQWPX6XWupKE=Y0s_WCJw-nDfifXu4dvib4QqgFhVRUhRoIr2QWXEpCg=
> > >  .
> > com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_
> > xsi-5Flist=DwIFAg=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA=Gm
> > X_ 32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA=dpzgBs0ngbUSd3U7joA_
> > ugvV0VgBSdVPrZXoO0vZ_no=twFHsPAQtXj39VNITMISNu4qszGa7y4LhcRk3Q06k00&
> > e=

RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

[Brent McPherson]

That is definitely part of the problem.

Existing customers become accustomed to the multi-step workflows (many which 
have been there from the beginning) and so these basic workflow issues don't 
tend to get logged or mentioned but they are more obvious to customers 
migrating from another software package.

When I worked in Maya modeling we definitely paid attention to the 
small-annoying-things-to-fix-in-maya and the ideas-for-maya forums and would 
address items that aligned with our goals for a particular release.

https://mayafeedback.autodesk.com/forums/160518-small-annoying-things-to-fix-in-maya-forum
https://mayafeedback.autodesk.com/forums/160514-ideas-for-maya-forum
--
Brent

-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Morten Bartholdy
Sent: 09 October 2017 11:59
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist=DwIFAg=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA=UFigILe-df1wqnzGj84aTEiN_Sft6gzmozB3_XN3m7c=I5HvOi-JHRkYG59rNeIrGKW3vrCD4Ep1gVKjClkonlE=
 <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

Well I think there is no doubt Maya was groundbreaking at the time, and given 
that the Sumatra team was delayed by the Digital Studio efforts, Maya was the 
new software chosen by a ripe market. It is just sad to see how bad Maya still 
is so many years on, compared to the smooth workflow in XSI.

I have our Maya people proudly showing me absolutely lame unintuitive multistep 
workflow solutions to really simple tasks which would take one click, or a 
hotkey, interaction and be done in Softimage. It is mindboggling that 
professional developers have come up with so many counterproductive workflows, 
but I guess it is testiment to the genius of the Softimage core dev team.

Morten




> Den 6. oktober 2017 klokken 17:09 skrev Steven Caron <car...@gmail.com>:
> 
> 
> I an pretty sure Brent helped ship Maya 1.0... so maybe he isn't sane 
> or a 'Softimage man'.
> 
> :P
> 
> 
> *written with my thumbs
> 
> 
> On Oct 6, 2017 7:45 AM, "Morten Bartholdy" <x...@colorshopvfx.dk> wrote:
> 
> Being a former Softimage man, I'd peg you as at least a lot(!) more 
> rational and logical than the other species of software dev's ;)
> 
> Morten
> 
> 
> > Den 6. oktober 2017 klokken 14:30 skrev Brent McPherson <
> brent.mcpher...@autodesk.com>:
> >
> >
> > Huh? Where did you get the impression I'm sane! :-O
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
> > [mailto:softimage-bounces@
> listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Morten Bartholdy
> > Sent: 06 October 2017 13:05
> > To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__urldefense.proofpoint=DwIBaQ=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA=V2nXQ3LG2UuEiHAogrnDPhrDLjwmCkcpQWPX6XWupKE=Y0s_WCJw-nDfifXu4dvib4QqgFhVRUhRoIr2QWXEpCg=
> >  .
> com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_
> xsi-5Flist=DwIFAg=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA=Gm
> X_ 32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA=dpzgBs0ngbUSd3U7joA_
> ugvV0VgBSdVPrZXoO0vZ_no=twFHsPAQtXj39VNITMISNu4qszGa7y4LhcRk3Q06k00&
> e=  < softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
> > Subject: RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots
> >
> > Thank you Brent. It is good to hear at least one sane person is 
> > working
> on Maya development ;)
> >
> > Morten
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Den 5. oktober 2017 klokken 15:54 skrev Brent McPherson <
> brent.mcpher...@autodesk.com>:
> > >
> > >
> > > I added bake pivot as it was frequently requested by Softimage users.
> > > ;-)
> > >
> > > If you want to look behind the curtain it is implemented by the
> bakeCustomToolPivot.mel script in the Maya runtime directory.
> > >
> > > Internally it just calls the move/rotate commands with the 
> > > -preserveChildPosition and -preserveGeometryPosition flags. (after 
> > > figuring out the desired orientation and position)
> > > --
> > > Brent
> > >
> > > From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
> > > [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of 
> > > Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
> > > Sent: 05 October 2017 14:42
> > > To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> > > Subject: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots
> > >
> > > Hey,

RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

[Morten Bartholdy]

Well I think there is no doubt Maya was groundbreaking at the time, and given 
that the Sumatra team was delayed by the Digital Studio efforts, Maya was the 
new software chosen by a ripe market. It is just sad to see how bad Maya still 
is so many years on, compared to the smooth workflow in XSI.

I have our Maya people proudly showing me absolutely lame unintuitive multistep 
workflow solutions to really simple tasks which would take one click, or a 
hotkey, interaction and be done in Softimage. It is mindboggling that 
professional developers have come up with so many counterproductive workflows, 
but I guess it is testiment to the genius of the Softimage core dev team.

Morten




> Den 6. oktober 2017 klokken 17:09 skrev Steven Caron <car...@gmail.com>:
> 
> 
> I an pretty sure Brent helped ship Maya 1.0... so maybe he isn't sane or a
> 'Softimage man'.
> 
> :P
> 
> 
> *written with my thumbs
> 
> 
> On Oct 6, 2017 7:45 AM, "Morten Bartholdy" <x...@colorshopvfx.dk> wrote:
> 
> Being a former Softimage man, I'd peg you as at least a lot(!) more
> rational and logical than the other species of software dev's ;)
> 
> Morten
> 
> 
> > Den 6. oktober 2017 klokken 14:30 skrev Brent McPherson <
> brent.mcpher...@autodesk.com>:
> >
> >
> > Huh? Where did you get the impression I'm sane! :-O
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-bounces@
> listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Morten Bartholdy
> > Sent: 06 October 2017 13:05
> > To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__urldefense.proofpoint=DwIBaQ=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA=V2nXQ3LG2UuEiHAogrnDPhrDLjwmCkcpQWPX6XWupKE=Y0s_WCJw-nDfifXu4dvib4QqgFhVRUhRoIr2QWXEpCg=
> >  .
> com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_
> xsi-5Flist=DwIFAg=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA=GmX_
> 32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA=dpzgBs0ngbUSd3U7joA_
> ugvV0VgBSdVPrZXoO0vZ_no=twFHsPAQtXj39VNITMISNu4qszGa7y4LhcRk3Q06k00=  <
> softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
> > Subject: RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots
> >
> > Thank you Brent. It is good to hear at least one sane person is working
> on Maya development ;)
> >
> > Morten
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Den 5. oktober 2017 klokken 15:54 skrev Brent McPherson <
> brent.mcpher...@autodesk.com>:
> > >
> > >
> > > I added bake pivot as it was frequently requested by Softimage users.
> > > ;-)
> > >
> > > If you want to look behind the curtain it is implemented by the
> bakeCustomToolPivot.mel script in the Maya runtime directory.
> > >
> > > Internally it just calls the move/rotate commands with the
> > > -preserveChildPosition and -preserveGeometryPosition flags. (after
> > > figuring out the desired orientation and position)
> > > --
> > > Brent
> > >
> > > From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
> > > [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of
> > > Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
> > > Sent: 05 October 2017 14:42
> > > To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> > > Subject: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots
> > >
> > > Hey,
> > >
> > > Given the recent discussion on Maya transforms, and my prior comments
> on the subject, I thought I would post this here since I think most
> Softimage folks will find it useful.
> > >
> > > I've been attempting to acclimate to Maya again after a long time away
> from it and as a result of some recent projects that I had that felt were
> better suited to Maya. In the process I've discovered a few things that
> have changed or been added in recent version. One discovery in particular I
> think most former SI users will find useful is Bake Pivot.
> > >
> > > It appears that the command Bake Pivot was added somewhere during
> version 2016, and evolved a bit between extension 1 and extension 2 of that
> version. In its current incarnation in 2017 and 2018 it appears to function
> in a way that will permit you the ability to edit the pivots to get a
> result similar to what you were getting in Softimage. To use it:
> > >
> > >
> > > Create an object
> > > Hit the Insert key
> > > Modify your pivot as desired in both position and orientation (do not
> > > exit the pivot editing before baking) Execute Modify>Bake Pivot (make
> > > sure it is Position and Orientation

RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

[Steven Caron]

And excuse my grammar...

*written with my thumbs

On Oct 6, 2017 9:49 AM, "Steven Caron"  wrote:

And I think you're experience on both is valuable. I outed you to avoid the
'us vs them' replies.

Thanks again Brent!

*written with my thumbs

On Oct 6, 2017 8:30 AM, "Brent McPherson" 
wrote:

Damn! I've been outed.



Yes, I was part of the team that worked on Maya 1.0 before moving to
Softimage.



I was a big proponent of embedded scripting languages and pushed really
hard for the product to be built around an embedded language. I also worked
a lot on the core architecture and OpenGL drawing/selection aspects of Maya
but left very soon after 1.0 shipped.



At Softimage I got to re-invent myself and do a lot more user facing
features as well as dabble in just about every part of the product which
was great fun. Also, the passion from the community was a really big part
of the whole Softimage experience.

--

Brent
--
Softimage Mailing List.
To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
"unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.

RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

[Steven Caron]

And I think you're experience on both is valuable. I outed you to avoid the
'us vs them' replies.

Thanks again Brent!

*written with my thumbs

On Oct 6, 2017 8:30 AM, "Brent McPherson" 
wrote:

Damn! I've been outed.



Yes, I was part of the team that worked on Maya 1.0 before moving to
Softimage.



I was a big proponent of embedded scripting languages and pushed really
hard for the product to be built around an embedded language. I also worked
a lot on the core architecture and OpenGL drawing/selection aspects of Maya
but left very soon after 1.0 shipped.



At Softimage I got to re-invent myself and do a lot more user facing
features as well as dabble in just about every part of the product which
was great fun. Also, the passion from the community was a really big part
of the whole Softimage experience.

--

Brent
--
Softimage Mailing List.
To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
"unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.

RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

[Brent McPherson]

Damn! I've been outed.

Yes, I was part of the team that worked on Maya 1.0 before moving to Softimage.

I was a big proponent of embedded scripting languages and pushed really hard 
for the product to be built around an embedded language. I also worked a lot on 
the core architecture and OpenGL drawing/selection aspects of Maya but left 
very soon after 1.0 shipped.

At Softimage I got to re-invent myself and do a lot more user facing features 
as well as dabble in just about every part of the product which was great fun. 
Also, the passion from the community was a really big part of the whole 
Softimage experience.
--
Brent

From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Steven Caron
Sent: 06 October 2017 16:09
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist=DwIGaQ=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA=_OKA4Y5RQbzRZ-X6fu_aw5gZ7gbXIARjBF6PQF6iEWQ=W3kkcuaoBoDE-BH-d1RIYbadv1wEkB68Lg4pcqeyNHU=
  <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

I an pretty sure Brent helped ship Maya 1.0... so maybe he isn't sane or a 
'Softimage man'.

:P


*written with my thumbs


On Oct 6, 2017 7:45 AM, "Morten Bartholdy" 
<x...@colorshopvfx.dk<mailto:x...@colorshopvfx.dk>> wrote:
Being a former Softimage man, I'd peg you as at least a lot(!) more rational 
and logical than the other species of software dev's ;)

Morten


> Den 6. oktober 2017 klokken 14:30 skrev Brent McPherson 
> <brent.mcpher...@autodesk.com<mailto:brent.mcpher...@autodesk.com>>:
>
>
> Huh? Where did you get the impression I'm sane! :-O
>
> -Original Message-
> From: 
> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>
>  
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>]
>  On Behalf Of Morten Bartholdy
> Sent: 06 October 2017 13:05
> To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist=DwIFAg=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA=dpzgBs0ngbUSd3U7joA_ugvV0VgBSdVPrZXoO0vZ_no=twFHsPAQtXj39VNITMISNu4qszGa7y4LhcRk3Q06k00=
>   <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>>
> Subject: RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots
>
> Thank you Brent. It is good to hear at least one sane person is working on 
> Maya development ;)
>
> Morten
>
>
>
>
> > Den 5. oktober 2017 klokken 15:54 skrev Brent McPherson 
> > <brent.mcpher...@autodesk.com<mailto:brent.mcpher...@autodesk.com>>:
> >
> >
> > I added bake pivot as it was frequently requested by Softimage users.
> > ;-)
> >
> > If you want to look behind the curtain it is implemented by the 
> > bakeCustomToolPivot.mel script in the Maya runtime directory.
> >
> > Internally it just calls the move/rotate commands with the
> > -preserveChildPosition and -preserveGeometryPosition flags. (after
> > figuring out the desired orientation and position)
> > --
> > Brent
> >
> > From: 
> > softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>
> > [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>]
> >  On Behalf Of
> > Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
> > Sent: 05 October 2017 14:42
> > To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
> > Subject: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots
> >
> > Hey,
> >
> > Given the recent discussion on Maya transforms, and my prior comments on 
> > the subject, I thought I would post this here since I think most Softimage 
> > folks will find it useful.
> >
> > I've been attempting to acclimate to Maya again after a long time away from 
> > it and as a result of some recent projects that I had that felt were better 
> > suited to Maya. In the process I've discovered a few things that have 
> > changed or been added in recent version. One discovery in particular I 
> > think most former SI users will find useful is Bake Pivot.
> >
> > It appears that the command Bake Pivot was added somewhere during version 
> > 2016, and evolved a bit between extension 1 and extension 2 of that 
> > version. In its current incarnation in 2017 and 2018 it appears to function 
> > in a way that will permit you the ability to edit the pivots to get a 
> > result 

RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

[Steven Caron]

I an pretty sure Brent helped ship Maya 1.0... so maybe he isn't sane or a
'Softimage man'.

:P


*written with my thumbs


On Oct 6, 2017 7:45 AM, "Morten Bartholdy" <x...@colorshopvfx.dk> wrote:

Being a former Softimage man, I'd peg you as at least a lot(!) more
rational and logical than the other species of software dev's ;)

Morten


> Den 6. oktober 2017 klokken 14:30 skrev Brent McPherson <
brent.mcpher...@autodesk.com>:
>
>
> Huh? Where did you get the impression I'm sane! :-O
>
> -Original Message-
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-bounces@
listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Morten Bartholdy
> Sent: 06 October 2017 13:05
> To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__urldefense.proofpoint=DwIBaQ=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA=V2nXQ3LG2UuEiHAogrnDPhrDLjwmCkcpQWPX6XWupKE=Y0s_WCJw-nDfifXu4dvib4QqgFhVRUhRoIr2QWXEpCg=
>  .
com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_
xsi-5Flist=DwIFAg=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA=GmX_
32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA=dpzgBs0ngbUSd3U7joA_
ugvV0VgBSdVPrZXoO0vZ_no=twFHsPAQtXj39VNITMISNu4qszGa7y4LhcRk3Q06k00=  <
softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
> Subject: RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots
>
> Thank you Brent. It is good to hear at least one sane person is working
on Maya development ;)
>
> Morten
>
>
>
>
> > Den 5. oktober 2017 klokken 15:54 skrev Brent McPherson <
brent.mcpher...@autodesk.com>:
> >
> >
> > I added bake pivot as it was frequently requested by Softimage users.
> > ;-)
> >
> > If you want to look behind the curtain it is implemented by the
bakeCustomToolPivot.mel script in the Maya runtime directory.
> >
> > Internally it just calls the move/rotate commands with the
> > -preserveChildPosition and -preserveGeometryPosition flags. (after
> > figuring out the desired orientation and position)
> > --
> > Brent
> >
> > From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
> > [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of
> > Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
> > Sent: 05 October 2017 14:42
> > To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> > Subject: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots
> >
> > Hey,
> >
> > Given the recent discussion on Maya transforms, and my prior comments
on the subject, I thought I would post this here since I think most
Softimage folks will find it useful.
> >
> > I've been attempting to acclimate to Maya again after a long time away
from it and as a result of some recent projects that I had that felt were
better suited to Maya. In the process I've discovered a few things that
have changed or been added in recent version. One discovery in particular I
think most former SI users will find useful is Bake Pivot.
> >
> > It appears that the command Bake Pivot was added somewhere during
version 2016, and evolved a bit between extension 1 and extension 2 of that
version. In its current incarnation in 2017 and 2018 it appears to function
in a way that will permit you the ability to edit the pivots to get a
result similar to what you were getting in Softimage. To use it:
> >
> >
> > Create an object
> > Hit the Insert key
> > Modify your pivot as desired in both position and orientation (do not
> > exit the pivot editing before baking) Execute Modify>Bake Pivot (make
> > sure it is Position and Orientation)
> >
> >
> > Once baked, the pivot will now be relative the object much the way you
experienced this in XSI. And it seems to inversely modify the transforms so
that everything is maintained within Maya space but in a way that will be
familiar to anyone with a prior Softimage background. It seems to be doing
something very similar to what we used to do in Maya by performing a
unparent/freeze/reset/reparent relative the object and a dummy locator at
world space. The Bake Pivot apparently performs all the inverse
transformations and freeze/reset without the need to unparent.
> >
> > If you're not on Maya 2016 Ext 2 or later you will still have to deal
with pivots in the legacy manner. And  I'm still of the mindset to
recommend that it is best not to edit pivots in Maya at all if you can
avoid it. And least till I better understand what Bake Pivot is really
doing...
> >
> >
> > Joey
> > --
> > Softimage Mailing List.
> > To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com
with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
> --
> Softimage Mailing List.
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.au

RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

[Morten Bartholdy]

Being a former Softimage man, I'd peg you as at least a lot(!) more rational 
and logical than the other species of software dev's ;)

Morten


> Den 6. oktober 2017 klokken 14:30 skrev Brent McPherson 
> <brent.mcpher...@autodesk.com>:
> 
> 
> Huh? Where did you get the impression I'm sane! :-O
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Morten Bartholdy
> Sent: 06 October 2017 13:05
> To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist=DwIFAg=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA=dpzgBs0ngbUSd3U7joA_ugvV0VgBSdVPrZXoO0vZ_no=twFHsPAQtXj39VNITMISNu4qszGa7y4LhcRk3Q06k00=
>   <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
> Subject: RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots
> 
> Thank you Brent. It is good to hear at least one sane person is working on 
> Maya development ;)
> 
> Morten
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Den 5. oktober 2017 klokken 15:54 skrev Brent McPherson 
> > <brent.mcpher...@autodesk.com>:
> > 
> > 
> > I added bake pivot as it was frequently requested by Softimage users. 
> > ;-)
> > 
> > If you want to look behind the curtain it is implemented by the 
> > bakeCustomToolPivot.mel script in the Maya runtime directory.
> > 
> > Internally it just calls the move/rotate commands with the 
> > -preserveChildPosition and -preserveGeometryPosition flags. (after 
> > figuring out the desired orientation and position)
> > --
> > Brent
> > 
> > From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
> > [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of 
> > Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
> > Sent: 05 October 2017 14:42
> > To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> > Subject: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots
> > 
> > Hey,
> > 
> > Given the recent discussion on Maya transforms, and my prior comments on 
> > the subject, I thought I would post this here since I think most Softimage 
> > folks will find it useful.
> > 
> > I've been attempting to acclimate to Maya again after a long time away from 
> > it and as a result of some recent projects that I had that felt were better 
> > suited to Maya. In the process I've discovered a few things that have 
> > changed or been added in recent version. One discovery in particular I 
> > think most former SI users will find useful is Bake Pivot.
> > 
> > It appears that the command Bake Pivot was added somewhere during version 
> > 2016, and evolved a bit between extension 1 and extension 2 of that 
> > version. In its current incarnation in 2017 and 2018 it appears to function 
> > in a way that will permit you the ability to edit the pivots to get a 
> > result similar to what you were getting in Softimage. To use it:
> > 
> > 
> > Create an object
> > Hit the Insert key
> > Modify your pivot as desired in both position and orientation (do not 
> > exit the pivot editing before baking) Execute Modify>Bake Pivot (make 
> > sure it is Position and Orientation)
> > 
> > 
> > Once baked, the pivot will now be relative the object much the way you 
> > experienced this in XSI. And it seems to inversely modify the transforms so 
> > that everything is maintained within Maya space but in a way that will be 
> > familiar to anyone with a prior Softimage background. It seems to be doing 
> > something very similar to what we used to do in Maya by performing a 
> > unparent/freeze/reset/reparent relative the object and a dummy locator at 
> > world space. The Bake Pivot apparently performs all the inverse 
> > transformations and freeze/reset without the need to unparent.
> > 
> > If you're not on Maya 2016 Ext 2 or later you will still have to deal with 
> > pivots in the legacy manner. And  I'm still of the mindset to recommend 
> > that it is best not to edit pivots in Maya at all if you can avoid it. And 
> > least till I better understand what Bake Pivot is really doing...
> > 
> > 
> > Joey
> > --
> > Softimage Mailing List.
> > To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
> > "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
> --
> Softimage Mailing List.
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
> 
> --
> Softimage Mailing List.
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
--
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RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

[Brent McPherson]

Huh? Where did you get the impression I'm sane! :-O

-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Morten Bartholdy
Sent: 06 October 2017 13:05
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist=DwIFAg=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA=dpzgBs0ngbUSd3U7joA_ugvV0VgBSdVPrZXoO0vZ_no=twFHsPAQtXj39VNITMISNu4qszGa7y4LhcRk3Q06k00=
  <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

Thank you Brent. It is good to hear at least one sane person is working on Maya 
development ;)

Morten




> Den 5. oktober 2017 klokken 15:54 skrev Brent McPherson 
> <brent.mcpher...@autodesk.com>:
> 
> 
> I added bake pivot as it was frequently requested by Softimage users. 
> ;-)
> 
> If you want to look behind the curtain it is implemented by the 
> bakeCustomToolPivot.mel script in the Maya runtime directory.
> 
> Internally it just calls the move/rotate commands with the 
> -preserveChildPosition and -preserveGeometryPosition flags. (after 
> figuring out the desired orientation and position)
> --
> Brent
> 
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of 
> Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
> Sent: 05 October 2017 14:42
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots
> 
> Hey,
> 
> Given the recent discussion on Maya transforms, and my prior comments on the 
> subject, I thought I would post this here since I think most Softimage folks 
> will find it useful.
> 
> I've been attempting to acclimate to Maya again after a long time away from 
> it and as a result of some recent projects that I had that felt were better 
> suited to Maya. In the process I've discovered a few things that have changed 
> or been added in recent version. One discovery in particular I think most 
> former SI users will find useful is Bake Pivot.
> 
> It appears that the command Bake Pivot was added somewhere during version 
> 2016, and evolved a bit between extension 1 and extension 2 of that version. 
> In its current incarnation in 2017 and 2018 it appears to function in a way 
> that will permit you the ability to edit the pivots to get a result similar 
> to what you were getting in Softimage. To use it:
> 
> 
> Create an object
> Hit the Insert key
> Modify your pivot as desired in both position and orientation (do not 
> exit the pivot editing before baking) Execute Modify>Bake Pivot (make 
> sure it is Position and Orientation)
> 
> 
> Once baked, the pivot will now be relative the object much the way you 
> experienced this in XSI. And it seems to inversely modify the transforms so 
> that everything is maintained within Maya space but in a way that will be 
> familiar to anyone with a prior Softimage background. It seems to be doing 
> something very similar to what we used to do in Maya by performing a 
> unparent/freeze/reset/reparent relative the object and a dummy locator at 
> world space. The Bake Pivot apparently performs all the inverse 
> transformations and freeze/reset without the need to unparent.
> 
> If you're not on Maya 2016 Ext 2 or later you will still have to deal with 
> pivots in the legacy manner. And  I'm still of the mindset to recommend that 
> it is best not to edit pivots in Maya at all if you can avoid it. And least 
> till I better understand what Bake Pivot is really doing...
> 
> 
> Joey
> --
> Softimage Mailing List.
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
--
Softimage Mailing List.
To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
"unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.

--
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To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
"unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.

RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

[Morten Bartholdy]

Thank you Brent. It is good to hear at least one sane person is working on Maya 
development ;)

Morten




> Den 5. oktober 2017 klokken 15:54 skrev Brent McPherson 
> <brent.mcpher...@autodesk.com>:
> 
> 
> I added bake pivot as it was frequently requested by Softimage users. ;-)
> 
> If you want to look behind the curtain it is implemented by the 
> bakeCustomToolPivot.mel script in the Maya runtime directory.
> 
> Internally it just calls the move/rotate commands with the 
> -preserveChildPosition and -preserveGeometryPosition flags. (after figuring 
> out the desired orientation and position)
> --
> Brent
> 
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ponthieux, 
> Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
> Sent: 05 October 2017 14:42
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots
> 
> Hey,
> 
> Given the recent discussion on Maya transforms, and my prior comments on the 
> subject, I thought I would post this here since I think most Softimage folks 
> will find it useful.
> 
> I've been attempting to acclimate to Maya again after a long time away from 
> it and as a result of some recent projects that I had that felt were better 
> suited to Maya. In the process I've discovered a few things that have changed 
> or been added in recent version. One discovery in particular I think most 
> former SI users will find useful is Bake Pivot.
> 
> It appears that the command Bake Pivot was added somewhere during version 
> 2016, and evolved a bit between extension 1 and extension 2 of that version. 
> In its current incarnation in 2017 and 2018 it appears to function in a way 
> that will permit you the ability to edit the pivots to get a result similar 
> to what you were getting in Softimage. To use it:
> 
> 
> Create an object
> Hit the Insert key
> Modify your pivot as desired in both position and orientation (do not exit 
> the pivot editing before baking)
> Execute Modify>Bake Pivot (make sure it is Position and Orientation)
> 
> 
> Once baked, the pivot will now be relative the object much the way you 
> experienced this in XSI. And it seems to inversely modify the transforms so 
> that everything is maintained within Maya space but in a way that will be 
> familiar to anyone with a prior Softimage background. It seems to be doing 
> something very similar to what we used to do in Maya by performing a 
> unparent/freeze/reset/reparent relative the object and a dummy locator at 
> world space. The Bake Pivot apparently performs all the inverse 
> transformations and freeze/reset without the need to unparent.
> 
> If you're not on Maya 2016 Ext 2 or later you will still have to deal with 
> pivots in the legacy manner. And  I'm still of the mindset to recommend that 
> it is best not to edit pivots in Maya at all if you can avoid it. And least 
> till I better understand what Bake Pivot is really doing...
> 
> 
> Joey
> --
> Softimage Mailing List.
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
--
Softimage Mailing List.
To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
"unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.

Re: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

[Morten Bartholdy]

Thanks for all the clarification Joey. It is very helpful in the troubled life 
of learning Maya (Alternative Abreviation for Piece of Shit Software).

Morten



> Den 5. oktober 2017 klokken 15:41 skrev "Ponthieux, Joseph G. 
> (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]" :
> 
> 
> Hey,
> 
> Given the recent discussion on Maya transforms, and my prior comments on the 
> subject, I thought I would post this here since I think most Softimage folks 
> will find it useful.
> 
> I've been attempting to acclimate to Maya again after a long time away from 
> it and as a result of some recent projects that I had that felt were better 
> suited to Maya. In the process I've discovered a few things that have changed 
> or been added in recent version. One discovery in particular I think most 
> former SI users will find useful is Bake Pivot.
> 
> It appears that the command Bake Pivot was added somewhere during version 
> 2016, and evolved a bit between extension 1 and extension 2 of that version. 
> In its current incarnation in 2017 and 2018 it appears to function in a way 
> that will permit you the ability to edit the pivots to get a result similar 
> to what you were getting in Softimage. To use it:
> 
> 
> Create an object
> Hit the Insert key
> Modify your pivot as desired in both position and orientation (do not exit 
> the pivot editing before baking)
> Execute Modify>Bake Pivot (make sure it is Position and Orientation)
> 
> 
> Once baked, the pivot will now be relative the object much the way you 
> experienced this in XSI. And it seems to inversely modify the transforms so 
> that everything is maintained within Maya space but in a way that will be 
> familiar to anyone with a prior Softimage background. It seems to be doing 
> something very similar to what we used to do in Maya by performing a 
> unparent/freeze/reset/reparent relative the object and a dummy locator at 
> world space. The Bake Pivot apparently performs all the inverse 
> transformations and freeze/reset without the need to unparent.
> 
> If you're not on Maya 2016 Ext 2 or later you will still have to deal with 
> pivots in the legacy manner. And  I'm still of the mindset to recommend that 
> it is best not to edit pivots in Maya at all if you can avoid it. And least 
> till I better understand what Bake Pivot is really doing...
> 
> 
> Joey
> --
> Softimage Mailing List.
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
--
Softimage Mailing List.
To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
"unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.

RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

[Brent McPherson]

No, it is pretty much the same thing as what was done in Soft.

Modify the transform and then apply the opposite transform onto the geometry 
(or child transforms) to keep everything at the same position.
--
Brent

From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ponthieux, Joseph 
G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
Sent: 05 October 2017 18:39
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

Brent,

Given Maya's inherently awkward way of dealing with transforms, this was very 
well done! Thanks!

So far I've been unable to detect any resulting position or orientation 
differences between setting Center live in Softimage and baking the pivot in 
Maya under like circumstances. Are you aware of any differences or caveats that 
would affect its use or at least not maintain a result similar to SI?

Joey



From: 
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>
 [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Brent McPherson
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 9:54 AM
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist=DwIFAg=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA=nZR5PQ3OaZ4YQ75dv58gaI81qRqQQEo9yYXP_TjUxfo=YzhPLX11CqXYNNfpwgINfzrXBR7i1zhtcHfpHOiUUZk=
  <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>>
Subject: RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

I added bake pivot as it was frequently requested by Softimage users. ;-)

If you want to look behind the curtain it is implemented by the 
bakeCustomToolPivot.mel script in the Maya runtime directory.

Internally it just calls the move/rotate commands with the 
-preserveChildPosition and -preserveGeometryPosition flags. (after figuring out 
the desired orientation and position)
--
Brent

From: 
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>
 [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ponthieux, 
Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
Sent: 05 October 2017 14:42
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

Hey,

Given the recent discussion on Maya transforms, and my prior comments on the 
subject, I thought I would post this here since I think most Softimage folks 
will find it useful.

I've been attempting to acclimate to Maya again after a long time away from it 
and as a result of some recent projects that I had that felt were better suited 
to Maya. In the process I've discovered a few things that have changed or been 
added in recent version. One discovery in particular I think most former SI 
users will find useful is Bake Pivot.

It appears that the command Bake Pivot was added somewhere during version 2016, 
and evolved a bit between extension 1 and extension 2 of that version. In its 
current incarnation in 2017 and 2018 it appears to function in a way that will 
permit you the ability to edit the pivots to get a result similar to what you 
were getting in Softimage. To use it:


Create an object
Hit the Insert key
Modify your pivot as desired in both position and orientation (do not exit the 
pivot editing before baking)
Execute Modify>Bake Pivot (make sure it is Position and Orientation)


Once baked, the pivot will now be relative the object much the way you 
experienced this in XSI. And it seems to inversely modify the transforms so 
that everything is maintained within Maya space but in a way that will be 
familiar to anyone with a prior Softimage background. It seems to be doing 
something very similar to what we used to do in Maya by performing a 
unparent/freeze/reset/reparent relative the object and a dummy locator at world 
space. The Bake Pivot apparently performs all the inverse transformations and 
freeze/reset without the need to unparent.

If you're not on Maya 2016 Ext 2 or later you will still have to deal with 
pivots in the legacy manner. And  I'm still of the mindset to recommend that it 
is best not to edit pivots in Maya at all if you can avoid it. And least till I 
better understand what Bake Pivot is really doing...


Joey
--
Softimage Mailing List.
To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
"unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.

RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

[Steven Caron]

Thank you Brent!

*written with my thumbs

On Oct 5, 2017 6:54 AM, "Brent McPherson" <brent.mcpher...@autodesk.com>
wrote:

> I added bake pivot as it was frequently requested by Softimage users. ;-)
>
>
>
> If you want to look behind the curtain it is implemented by the
> bakeCustomToolPivot.mel script in the Maya runtime directory.
>
>
>
> Internally it just calls the move/rotate commands with the
> -preserveChildPosition and -preserveGeometryPosition flags. (after figuring
> out the desired orientation and position)
>
> --
>
> Brent
>
>
>
> *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-bounces@
> listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of *Ponthieux, Joseph G.
> (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
> *Sent:* 05 October 2017 14:42
> *To:* softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> *Subject:* Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots
>
>
>
> Hey,
>
>
>
> Given the recent discussion on Maya transforms, and my prior comments on
> the subject, I thought I would post this here since I think most Softimage
> folks will find it useful.
>
>
>
> I’ve been attempting to acclimate to Maya again after a long time away
> from it and as a result of some recent projects that I had that felt were
> better suited to Maya. In the process I’ve discovered a few things that
> have changed or been added in recent version. One discovery in particular I
> think most former SI users will find useful is Bake Pivot.
>
>
>
> It appears that the command Bake Pivot was added somewhere during version
> 2016, and evolved a bit between extension 1 and extension 2 of that
> version. In its current incarnation in 2017 and 2018 it appears to function
> in a way that will permit you the ability to edit the pivots to get a
> result similar to what you were getting in Softimage. To use it:
>
>
>
>
>
> Create an object
>
> Hit the Insert key
>
> Modify your pivot as desired in both position and orientation (do not exit
> the pivot editing before baking)
>
> Execute Modify>Bake Pivot (make sure it is Position and Orientation)
>
>
>
>
>
> Once baked, the pivot will now be relative the object much the way you
> experienced this in XSI. And it seems to inversely modify the transforms so
> that everything is maintained within Maya space but in a way that will be
> familiar to anyone with a prior Softimage background. It seems to be doing
> something very similar to what we used to do in Maya by performing a
> unparent/freeze/reset/reparent relative the object and a dummy locator at
> world space. The Bake Pivot apparently performs all the inverse
> transformations and freeze/reset without the need to unparent.
>
>
>
> If you’re not on Maya 2016 Ext 2 or later you will still have to deal with
> pivots in the legacy manner. And  I’m still of the mindset to recommend
> that it is best not to edit pivots in Maya at all if you can avoid it. And
> least till I better understand what Bake Pivot is really doing…
>
>
>
>
>
> Joey
>
> --
> Softimage Mailing List.
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RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

[Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]]

Brent,

Given Maya's inherently awkward way of dealing with transforms, this was very 
well done! Thanks!

So far I've been unable to detect any resulting position or orientation 
differences between setting Center live in Softimage and baking the pivot in 
Maya under like circumstances. Are you aware of any differences or caveats that 
would affect its use or at least not maintain a result similar to SI?

Joey



From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Brent McPherson
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2017 9:54 AM
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__groups.google.com_forum_-23-21forum_xsi-5Flist=DwIFAg=76Q6Tcqc-t2x0ciWn7KFdCiqt6IQ7a_IF9uzNzd_2pA=GmX_32eCLYPFLJ529RohsPjjNVwo9P0jVMsrMw7PFsA=06Hmoh3WyFJ2198eqo_UaLyT3ZMiL4zfvG13CFOGzjI=6IW36Y4_XkyqKrDhZ40X17YynNSXAnaERExxfNq4BIE=
  <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

I added bake pivot as it was frequently requested by Softimage users. ;-)

If you want to look behind the curtain it is implemented by the 
bakeCustomToolPivot.mel script in the Maya runtime directory.

Internally it just calls the move/rotate commands with the 
-preserveChildPosition and -preserveGeometryPosition flags. (after figuring out 
the desired orientation and position)
--
Brent

From: 
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com>
 [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ponthieux, 
Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
Sent: 05 October 2017 14:42
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com<mailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

Hey,

Given the recent discussion on Maya transforms, and my prior comments on the 
subject, I thought I would post this here since I think most Softimage folks 
will find it useful.

I've been attempting to acclimate to Maya again after a long time away from it 
and as a result of some recent projects that I had that felt were better suited 
to Maya. In the process I've discovered a few things that have changed or been 
added in recent version. One discovery in particular I think most former SI 
users will find useful is Bake Pivot.

It appears that the command Bake Pivot was added somewhere during version 2016, 
and evolved a bit between extension 1 and extension 2 of that version. In its 
current incarnation in 2017 and 2018 it appears to function in a way that will 
permit you the ability to edit the pivots to get a result similar to what you 
were getting in Softimage. To use it:


Create an object
Hit the Insert key
Modify your pivot as desired in both position and orientation (do not exit the 
pivot editing before baking)
Execute Modify>Bake Pivot (make sure it is Position and Orientation)


Once baked, the pivot will now be relative the object much the way you 
experienced this in XSI. And it seems to inversely modify the transforms so 
that everything is maintained within Maya space but in a way that will be 
familiar to anyone with a prior Softimage background. It seems to be doing 
something very similar to what we used to do in Maya by performing a 
unparent/freeze/reset/reparent relative the object and a dummy locator at world 
space. The Bake Pivot apparently performs all the inverse transformations and 
freeze/reset without the need to unparent.

If you're not on Maya 2016 Ext 2 or later you will still have to deal with 
pivots in the legacy manner. And  I'm still of the mindset to recommend that it 
is best not to edit pivots in Maya at all if you can avoid it. And least till I 
better understand what Bake Pivot is really doing...


Joey
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RE: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

[Brent McPherson]

I added bake pivot as it was frequently requested by Softimage users. ;-)

If you want to look behind the curtain it is implemented by the 
bakeCustomToolPivot.mel script in the Maya runtime directory.

Internally it just calls the move/rotate commands with the 
-preserveChildPosition and -preserveGeometryPosition flags. (after figuring out 
the desired orientation and position)
--
Brent

From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ponthieux, Joseph 
G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
Sent: 05 October 2017 14:42
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

Hey,

Given the recent discussion on Maya transforms, and my prior comments on the 
subject, I thought I would post this here since I think most Softimage folks 
will find it useful.

I've been attempting to acclimate to Maya again after a long time away from it 
and as a result of some recent projects that I had that felt were better suited 
to Maya. In the process I've discovered a few things that have changed or been 
added in recent version. One discovery in particular I think most former SI 
users will find useful is Bake Pivot.

It appears that the command Bake Pivot was added somewhere during version 2016, 
and evolved a bit between extension 1 and extension 2 of that version. In its 
current incarnation in 2017 and 2018 it appears to function in a way that will 
permit you the ability to edit the pivots to get a result similar to what you 
were getting in Softimage. To use it:


Create an object
Hit the Insert key
Modify your pivot as desired in both position and orientation (do not exit the 
pivot editing before baking)
Execute Modify>Bake Pivot (make sure it is Position and Orientation)


Once baked, the pivot will now be relative the object much the way you 
experienced this in XSI. And it seems to inversely modify the transforms so 
that everything is maintained within Maya space but in a way that will be 
familiar to anyone with a prior Softimage background. It seems to be doing 
something very similar to what we used to do in Maya by performing a 
unparent/freeze/reset/reparent relative the object and a dummy locator at world 
space. The Bake Pivot apparently performs all the inverse transformations and 
freeze/reset without the need to unparent.

If you're not on Maya 2016 Ext 2 or later you will still have to deal with 
pivots in the legacy manner. And  I'm still of the mindset to recommend that it 
is best not to edit pivots in Maya at all if you can avoid it. And least till I 
better understand what Bake Pivot is really doing...


Joey
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Maya - What were they thinking 3 - pivots

[Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]]

Hey,

Given the recent discussion on Maya transforms, and my prior comments on the 
subject, I thought I would post this here since I think most Softimage folks 
will find it useful.

I've been attempting to acclimate to Maya again after a long time away from it 
and as a result of some recent projects that I had that felt were better suited 
to Maya. In the process I've discovered a few things that have changed or been 
added in recent version. One discovery in particular I think most former SI 
users will find useful is Bake Pivot.

It appears that the command Bake Pivot was added somewhere during version 2016, 
and evolved a bit between extension 1 and extension 2 of that version. In its 
current incarnation in 2017 and 2018 it appears to function in a way that will 
permit you the ability to edit the pivots to get a result similar to what you 
were getting in Softimage. To use it:


Create an object
Hit the Insert key
Modify your pivot as desired in both position and orientation (do not exit the 
pivot editing before baking)
Execute Modify>Bake Pivot (make sure it is Position and Orientation)


Once baked, the pivot will now be relative the object much the way you 
experienced this in XSI. And it seems to inversely modify the transforms so 
that everything is maintained within Maya space but in a way that will be 
familiar to anyone with a prior Softimage background. It seems to be doing 
something very similar to what we used to do in Maya by performing a 
unparent/freeze/reset/reparent relative the object and a dummy locator at world 
space. The Bake Pivot apparently performs all the inverse transformations and 
freeze/reset without the need to unparent.

If you're not on Maya 2016 Ext 2 or later you will still have to deal with 
pivots in the legacy manner. And  I'm still of the mindset to recommend that it 
is best not to edit pivots in Maya at all if you can avoid it. And least till I 
better understand what Bake Pivot is really doing...


Joey
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Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Jason S]

  
  
On 09/17/17 19:16, Jason S wrote:


  
  
On 09/17/17 18:39, Anto Matkovic wrote:
  
  

  I'm
talking more from practical side. Let's say, once your
plane landed into jungle, how to make dinner of worms
:), which worm is better, so on.
  Regarding


Node Editor, someone definitively won't use it to build
a chain of deformers by bringing and connecting nodes,
because in this case, plain connect is simply not enough
to get things to work.
  Transformations


are different story, connect here works immediately,
making possible to build really nice and complex
interactions.

  
  
  No doubt, but I don't think that this takes anything away form any
  of the points mentioned in this thread,
  
  Points that similarly don't seem to take anything away of how
  complex node interactions can be with the node editor.
  


Hi, Just to clarify,  "No doubt" was for node interactions bit, I
have no doubt quite intricate interactions can be made.

Which worm is "better"? I guess that can mostly have to do with what
we are used to, and can depend alot on contexts,
but XSI sure had(and very-much still has) a pretty great deal of
stuff going for it, relative to the best of them.



  

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Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Jason S]

  
  

  On 09/17/17 18:39, Anto Matkovic wrote:


  
I'm
  talking more from practical side. Let's say, once your
  plane landed into jungle, how to make dinner of worms :),
  which worm is better, so on.
Regarding

  Node Editor, someone definitively won't use it to build a
  chain of deformers by bringing and connecting nodes,
  because in this case, plain connect is simply not enough
  to get things to work.
Transformations

  are different story, connect here works immediately,
  making possible to build really nice and complex
  interactions.
  


No doubt, but I don't think that this takes anything away form any
of the points mentioned in this thread,

Points that similarly don't seem to take anything away of how
complex node interactions can be with the node editor.


  

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Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Anto Matkovic]

I'm talking more from practical side. Let's say, once your plane landed into 
jungle, how to make dinner of worms :), which worm is better, so on.Regarding 
Node Editor, someone definitively won't use it to build a chain of deformers by 
bringing and connecting nodes, because in this case, plain connect is simply 
not enough to get things to work.Transformations are different story, connect 
here works immediately, making possible to build really nice and complex 
interactions.

  From: Jason S <jasonsta...@gmail.com>
 To: Anto Matkovic <a...@matkovic.com>; Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list 
<softimage@listproc.autodesk.com> 
 Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2017 7:43 AM
 Subject: Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms
   
 On 09/15/17 15:16, Anto Matkovic wrote:
  
  Whatever works for you. For example I never tried to key the global transform 
in SI, always used constraint instead, because this clearly shows what's going 
on. Also followed 'one object one transform' 'rule', that is, never more than 
one constraint or expression per object - this makes it easier  to connect to 
another structure, reset, so on. But that's just me. It's always possible to 
hide some null, after all. 
   
 
 Hum. I don't think it's just for what works for me..   --> * (see footquote)
 
 In Maya (as I think I understand) , once you freeze your object, 
 -it- becomes the center of itself (for things to be relative to it), 
 and looses all references to Universe 0 does it not (?)
 (also kind-of like many public companies actually ;) )
 
 Then where are it's 'universal pose' values after it's frozen?  
 (where is the object in universal space?)
 
 In XSI there is "Neutral Pose" which allows to reset to that, 
 but there is always a (read/writable, and resettable) reference to 0 universe.
 
 and as previously covered, where are it's  'local pose'  values once it's a 
child of something?
 
  it's doable but ... ... complicated  (for simple things)
 (more nulls forever)
 
 
 And consequently, I really don't think any advantage of   "dual coordinates"  
has to do with   'keying global transforms' 
 
 but rather (as you probably know inside) ::  
 --> there is -always-  'local'    ( parent relative values..   --and what you 
normally animate in XSI--  ) 
 and 'global' (universal) coordinates,   -- both coordinates for reference, 
keying, driving or just setting (or -resetting-),
 that are intricately part of absolutely everything, and there all the time.
 
 Without the need for redundant transient items that can accumulate quite fast, 
and clutter up everything ,
  ( speaking by sometimes already finding too many control items in XSI and 
always trying to simplify as much as possible )
 and without the need to calculate or deduce those (super useful) values when 
wanting to reference (or drive) them.  --> *
 
 and the previously mentionned  "sea of relationships"  can also very-much 
include how relations are represented in the node editor,
 with little to no abstraction to a way of doing things that (historically) has 
been recognized as over-bloated or over-complicated.  --> **
 
 
 
 * from 2005 (about clutter and things) 
 http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php?t-173245.html
 
 ... in maya there are many things where i wonder what the hell is going on. 
 very often i parented an object into another and couldn't define the 
coordinates correctly any more. and much more things.
 
 a further example:
 after having mirrored and smoothed an object, maya has generated 4 additional 
objects to the scene 
 (2 transform groups, the low-poly mirror and the smoothed mesh). 
 
 working with blendshapes also generates some more objects, so the whole scene 
gets very confusing after a little time. 
 
 if you don't give a name to EVERY little thing (even if it's a texture node), 
efficient working gets nearly impossible.
 
 every object is connected to many nodes - the complete program seems to be a 
big net, 
 and it's your job to navigate through it. (really annoying under time pressure)
 
 while working with nurbs surfaces you should better clean up the history 
(delete modifier stack) 
 or maybe you get double transformations, can't move a parented objects 
correctly or get other problems like that.
 
 
 **  from 2016 about Maya transforms
 http://forums.fabricengine.com/discussion/585/maya-transforms
 
 ... as I was saying in the beginning, there is not reason to try to have a 
Maya transform.
  It is an old thing that caries with it many problems. 
 
 It tries to give many features that in theory sound great, like the 
possibility to set its pivots, 
 but in practice it's simply way to complicated, convoluted, over-designed, 
 resulting in a huge object (considering the context of its typical use) that 
it's slower than what it should, 
 not mentioning the headache it gives every time you have to de

Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Doeke Wartena]

test

2017-09-16 22:13 GMT+02:00 Jason S :

> On 09/15/17 15:16, Anto Matkovic wrote:
>
> Whatever works for you. For example I never tried to key the global
> transform in SI, always used constraint instead, because this clearly shows
> what's going on. Also followed 'one object one transform' 'rule', that is,
> never more than one constraint or expression per object - this makes it
> easier to connect to another structure, reset, so on. But that's just me.
> It's always possible to hide some null, after all.
>
>
> Hum. I don't think it's just for what works for me..   --> * (see
> footquote)
>
> In Maya (as I think I understand) , once you freeze your object,
> -it- becomes the center of itself (for things to be relative to it),
> and looses all references to Universe 0 does it not (?)
> (also kind-of like many public companies actually ;) )
>
> Then where are it's 'universal pose' values after it's frozen?
> (where is the object in universal space?)
>
> In XSI there is "Neutral Pose" which allows to reset to that,
> but there is always a (read/writable, and resettable) reference to 0
> universe.
>
> and as previously covered, where are it's  'local pose'  values once it's
> a child of something?
>
>  it's doable but ... ... complicated  (for simple things)
> (more nulls forever)
>
>
> And consequently, I really don't think any advantage of   "dual
> coordinates"  has to do with   '*keying global transforms*'
>
> but rather (as you probably know inside) ::
> --> there is -always-  'local'( parent relative values..   --and what
> you normally animate in XSI--  )
> and 'global' (universal) coordinates,   -- both coordinates for reference,
> keying, driving or just setting (or -resetting-),
> that are intricately part of absolutely everything, and there all the time.
>
> Without the need for redundant transient items that can accumulate quite
> fast, and clutter up everything ,
>  ( speaking by sometimes already finding too many control items in XSI and
> always trying to simplify as much as possible )
> and without the need to calculate or deduce those (super useful) values
> when wanting to reference (or drive) them.  --> *
>
> and the previously mentionned  "sea of relationships"  can also very-much
> include how relations are represented in the node editor,
> with little to no abstraction to a way of doing things that (historically)
> has been recognized as over-bloated or over-complicated.  --> **
>
>
>
> * from 2005 (about clutter and things)
> http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php?t-173245.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> * ... in maya there are many things where i wonder what the hell is going
> on. very often i parented an object into another and couldn't define the
> coordinates correctly any more. and much more things. a further example:
> after having mirrored and smoothed an object, maya has generated 4
> additional objects to the scene (2 transform groups, the low-poly mirror
> and the smoothed mesh). working with blendshapes also generates some more
> objects, so the whole scene gets very confusing after a little time. if you
> don't give a name to EVERY little thing (even if it's a texture node),
> efficient working gets nearly impossible. every object is connected to many
> nodes - the complete program seems to be a big net, and it's your job to
> navigate through it. (really annoying under time pressure) while working
> with nurbs surfaces you should better clean up the history (delete modifier
> stack) or maybe you get double transformations, can't move a parented
> objects correctly or get other problems like that.*
>
>
> **  from 2016 about Maya transforms
> http://forums.fabricengine.com/discussion/585/maya-transforms
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *... as I was saying in the beginning, there is not reason to try to have
> a Maya transform.  It is an old thing that caries with it many problems. It
> tries to give many features that in theory sound great, like the
> possibility to set its pivots, but in practice it's simply way to
> complicated, convoluted, over-designed, resulting in a huge object
> (considering the context of its typical use) that it's slower than what it
> should, not mentioning the headache it gives every time you have to deal
> with it in the API. *
>
>
> *My suggestion?  You have Fabric now, that allows you to stay away from
> the bloated Maya's transform as much as you can. *
>
>
> *Learn instead how to handle Xfos, and do what you want with those. *
>
> *Care about the Maya's transform only when you set them from Fabric or
> read them for Fabric.*
>
> * You said you come from Xsi. Don't make your life unnecessary sad and
> ugly as I had to do* [image: :)]
>
>
>
> *_ ... really thanks for the detailed
> answer. Yes, I am trying to replicate Maya's transform  for 1. understand
> it better since now I have to work with it  and 2.understand Fabric Engine.
> *
>
>
> *I was thinking that Mat44 and Xfo were 

Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Jason S]

  
  
On 09/15/17 15:16, Anto Matkovic wrote:


  
Whatever
works for you. For example I never tried to key the global
transform in SI, always used constraint instead, because
this clearly shows what's going on. Also followed 'one
object one transform' 'rule', that is, never more than one
constraint or _expression_ per object - this makes it easier
to connect to another structure, reset, so on. But that's
just me. It's always possible to hide some null, after all.


  


Hum. I don't think it's just for what works for me..   --> * (see
footquote)

In Maya (as I think I understand) , once you freeze your object, 
-it- becomes the center of itself (for things to be relative to it),

and looses all references to Universe 0 does it not (?)
(also kind-of like many public companies actually ;) )

Then where are it's 'universal pose' values after it's frozen?  
(where is the object in universal space?)

In XSI there is "Neutral Pose" which allows to reset to that, 
but there is always a (read/writable, and resettable) reference to 0
universe.

and as previously covered, where are it's  'local pose'  values once
it's a child of something?

 it's doable but ... ... complicated  (for simple things)
(more nulls forever)


And consequently, I really don't think any advantage of   "dual
coordinates"  has to do with   'keying global transforms' 

but rather (as you probably know inside) ::  
--> there is -always-  'local'    ( parent relative values..  
--and what you normally animate in XSI--  ) 
and 'global' (universal) coordinates,   -- both coordinates for
reference, keying, driving or just setting (or -resetting-),
that are intricately part of absolutely everything, and there all
the time.

Without the need for redundant transient items that can accumulate
quite fast, and clutter up everything ,
 ( speaking by sometimes already finding too many control items in
XSI and always trying to simplify as much as possible )
and without the need to calculate or deduce those (super useful)
values when wanting to reference (or drive) them.  --> *

and the previously mentionned  "sea of relationships"  can also
very-much include how relations are represented in the node editor,
with little to no abstraction to a way of doing things that
(historically) has been recognized as over-bloated or
over-complicated.  --> **



* from 2005 (about clutter and things) 
http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php?t-173245.html

... in maya there are many things where i wonder what the hell
is going on. 
very often i parented an object into another and couldn't define
the coordinates correctly any more. and much more things.

a further example:
after having mirrored and smoothed an object, maya has generated
4 additional objects to the scene 
(2 transform groups, the low-poly mirror and the smoothed mesh).


working with blendshapes also generates some more objects, so
the whole scene gets very confusing after a little time. 

if you don't give a name to EVERY little thing (even if it's a
texture node), efficient working gets nearly impossible.

every object is connected to many nodes - the complete program
seems to be a big net, 
and it's your job to navigate through it. (really annoying under
time pressure)

while working with nurbs surfaces you should better clean up the
history (delete modifier stack) 
or maybe you get double transformations, can't move a parented
objects correctly or get other problems like that.


**  from 2016 about Maya transforms
http://forums.fabricengine.com/discussion/585/maya-transforms

... as I was saying in the beginning, there is not reason
to try to have a Maya transform.
 It is an old thing that caries with it many problems. 

It tries to give many features that in theory sound great, like
the possibility to set its pivots, 
but in practice it's simply way to
  complicated, convoluted, over-designed, 
resulting in a huge object (considering the context of its
typical use) that it's slower than what it should, 
not mentioning the headache it gives every time you have to deal
with it in the API.
  
My suggestion?  You have Fabric now, that allows you to
  stay away from the bloated Maya's transform as much as you
  can. 

Learn instead how to handle Xfos, and do what you want
  with those. 

Care 

Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Anto Matkovic]

Whatever works for you. For example I never tried to key the global transform 
in SI, always used constraint instead, because this clearly shows what's going 
on. Also followed 'one object one transform' 'rule', that is, never more than 
one constraint or expression per object - this makes it easier to connect to 
another structure, reset, so on. But that's just me. It's always possible to 
hide some null, after all.

  From: Jason S <jasonsta...@gmail.com>
 To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list 
<softimage@listproc.autodesk.com> 
 Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:05 PM
 Subject: Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms
   
 On 09/15/17 5:15, Anto Matkovic wrote:
  
  There's neutral pose in SI. However, that ''hidden parenting'' could be a 
risky business, too.    
 I'm sure sometimes access to some under the belly things in these "higher 
level centers" could be useful, or to perhaps have some yet more basic nulls?, 
 but for the overwhelming majority of the time, it sure made things easier to 
understand conceptually what was happening and why, while taking  bunch of 
complication away.
 which I presume were made to be higherlevel, precicely for that reason.. (with 
usefriendliness in mind)
 for something as basic or as elemental as kinematics.
 
 Not necessarily or only for isolated relationships between a few items (like 
camera rigs), 
 but mostly when following these relationship while making a mental image of 
what is doing what, 
 in what can quickly become  a sea of relationships  (and of complication and 
confusion) the moment setups need to be even moderately elaborate.
 And consequently involves quite a bit more "brainload" even after getting use 
to it.
 
 And I have to agree with what Thomas said;
 
 On 09/09/17 7:07, Tom Kleinenberg wrote:
   Unless you've used XSI you're unlikely to understand how useful that 
"dual-coordinate" method was.
 
 
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Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Jason S]

  
  
On 09/15/17 5:15, Anto Matkovic wrote:


  
There's
  neutral pose in SI. However, that ''hidden parenting''
  could be a risky business, too.  
  

I'm sure sometimes access to some under the belly
  things in these "higher level centers" could be useful, or to
  perhaps have some
  yet more basic nulls?, 
  but for the overwhelming majority of the time, it sure made things
  easier to understand conceptually what was happening and why,
  while taking  bunch of complication away.
which I presume were made to be
higherlevel, precicely for that reason.. (with usefriendliness
in mind)
for something as basic
  or as elemental as kinematics.

  Not necessarily or only for isolated relationships between
  a few items (like camera rigs), 
  but mostly when following these relationship while making a mental
  image of what is doing what, 
  in what can quickly become  a sea of relationships  (and of
  complication and confusion) the moment setups need to be even
  moderately elaborate.
  And consequently involves quite a bit more "brainload" even after
  getting use to it.
  
  And I have to agree with what Thomas said;

On 09/09/17 7:07, Tom Kleinenberg
  wrote:

 Unless you've used XSI you're unlikely to understand
  how useful that "dual-coordinate" method was.
  
  

  

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Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Anto Matkovic]

There's neutral pose in SI. However, that ''hidden parenting'' could be a risky 
business, too. For example, XSI built in biped rig creator has a nasty habit to 
''zero out'' the rotation of COG (hips) controller. So, by moving and keying 
that controller horizontally, in Animation Editor there's a slight small 
movement along Y axis. Or, zero Y movement in animation editor is small up - 
down of cog bone.
Somehow contradictory, to use these hidden offsets properly, someone has to be 
able to visualize them.
As some rule of thumb, positional offset is more or less harmless, rotational 
offset is ( more or less) dangerous. SI has nicely exposed options to set 
neutral pose only on position. In Maya world, let's say that Maya pivot is OK 
to use, as only positional offset. While Maya Joint Orient, as rotational 
offset, it is a problem in many cases -  setting that thing to zero, whenever 
is possible, is condition for easier life...


  From: Jason S <jasonsta...@gmail.com>
 To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list 
<softimage@listproc.autodesk.com> 
 Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:20 AM
 Subject: Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms
   
 
 
 Hum.
 
 I guess these "intermediate items" are probably part of XSI's internalized 
abstractions (?)
 
 I'm sure there must be advantages of having it this way, (1 null (& hierarchy 
level) for each axis of rotation ?)
 but I feel that these abstractions remove quite a bit of redundancy and 
clutter in sometimes already quite cluttered and deep hierarchies.
 

   #yiv8349857162 #yiv8349857162 -- _filtered #yiv8349857162 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 
5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8349857162 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 
2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8349857162 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2 11 6 9 2 
2 4 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv8349857162 {font-family:Candara;panose-1:2 14 5 2 3 3 
3 2 2 4;}#yiv8349857162 #yiv8349857162 p.yiv8349857162MsoNormal, #yiv8349857162 
li.yiv8349857162MsoNormal, #yiv8349857162 div.yiv8349857162MsoNormal 
{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;color:black;}#yiv8349857162 
a:link, #yiv8349857162 span.yiv8349857162MsoHyperlink 
{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8349857162 a:visited, #yiv8349857162 
span.yiv8349857162MsoHyperlinkFollowed 
{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv8349857162 pre 
{margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;color:black;}#yiv8349857162 
span.yiv8349857162HTMLPreformattedChar {color:black;}#yiv8349857162 
span.yiv8349857162EmailStyle19 {color:#1F497D;}#yiv8349857162 
.yiv8349857162MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered #yiv8349857162 
{margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}#yiv8349857162 div.yiv8349857162WordSection1 
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Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Jason S]

 back to world zero and rework it there, I then drop it back
into the hierarchy below Roll where it was originally
located. When back in the hierarchy I execute Reset on
GeometryMaster again. It should then move to be in exactly
the same place it was before relative Roll, assuming I’ve
managed not change the Geo’s relation to transform and pivot
zero too drastically.
 
To
summarize:
Select
geometry object
Unparent
Reset
Transformations
Edit
object at world zero coordinates
Reinsert
object into hierarchy
Reset
Transformations
 
If
you develop a good set of habits in structuring and managing
your hierarchies, placing at least one group transform above
each geometry object, that kind of thing, its fairly
painless. The parenting required is relative the
articulation that is needed.
 
This
way of doing things may not likely be familiar  if you’re
coming to Maya from XSI. When I learned Maya transforms I
was coming from SI 3D, but I also had some experience on
Wavefront TAV, so it was less difficult to understand why
they did it this way. Funny thing is when I transitioned
back to XSI from Maya, about XSI 5 I think, at some point I
noted XSI had implemented Transform Groups. As a result I
started using the Transform Groups in XSI to continue using
the Maya structural “habit”  in XSI. I found that in time I
rarely ever touched the Center again.
 
Bear
in mind that Maya does provide a “global” abstraction
through Move Tools’ setting Axis Orientation. If you set it
to world you can move an object according to World XYZ axis
via the manipulator, but it will show up as local transform
values local to its parent unless you remove it from the
hierarchy. (This abstraction also seems kind of buggy in
2017 as it doesn’t update the manipulator sometimes when
switching from Object to World or back).
 
If
you need to move something to a world specific position, use
a locator or group that is not inserted in the hierarchy,
set its world position, then snap the object to that world
positioned locator(via Snap to Point).  Bear in mind that
the object is still relative its parent. It can be nonzero
to its parent without much issue if all you are doing is
positioning it relative the articulation xform of its
parent.

 
So
it becomes kind of a game to know how to set up the
hierarchy to manage articulations. What gets a lot of depth
and what doesn’t. And typically this means you rarely
articulate a piece of geometry by itself without a transform
group. Granted rigid body simulations, envelopes, and shape
animations are typically exclusions to that kind of need for
structural depth.

 
Joey
 
--
__
Opinions
stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not

represent
the opinions of NASA or any other party.
 
 
 

  
From:
softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com]
On Behalf Of Jason S
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 3:41 PM
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list
<softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 -
transforms
  

 
It seems to be the same issue in these
  threads.
  
  
 
    CGTalk - how to "zero to parent"
 
    CGTalk - roll / pan / tilt of camera
 
So any item you would want to animate  by it's local axis (or to refer to it's local transforms in expressions) needs an intermediate parent item? 
 
Doesn't that make sub-sub level items become  sub-sub-sub-sub level? (double the items at double depth?)
 
What happens when you reset the transforms of a child of a parent that's somewhere in space, pointing somewhere?  
 (0 zeroing it's transforms) 
the item snaps to world center?  and not to whatever posit

RE: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]]

ically this 
means you rarely articulate a piece of geometry by itself without a transform 
group. Granted rigid body simulations, envelopes, and shape animations are 
typically exclusions to that kind of need for structural depth.

Joey

--
__
Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not
represent the opinions of NASA or any other party.



From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Jason S
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 3:41 PM
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list 
<softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

It seems to be the same issue in these threads.




CGTalk - how to "zero to 
parent"<http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=7=1256382=local+global>



CGTalk - roll / pan / tilt of 
camera<http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=89=1141823=local+global>



So any item you would want to animate  by it's local axis (or to refer to it's 
local transforms in expressions) needs an intermediate parent item?



Doesn't that make sub-sub level items become  sub-sub-sub-sub level? (double 
the items at double depth?)



What happens when you reset the transforms of a child of a parent that's 
somewhere in space, pointing somewhere?

 (0 zeroing it's transforms)

the item snaps to world center?  and not to whatever position/orientation of 
it's parent?



On 09/11/17 11:01, Morten Bartholdy wrote:

Thanks guys - there is plenty to investigate here :)



//MB


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Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Jason S]

  
  
It seems to be the same issue in these threads.

CGTalk - how to "zero to parent"

CGTalk - roll / pan / tilt of camera

So any item you would want to animate  by it's local axis (or to refer to it's local transforms in expressions) needs an intermediate parent item? 

Doesn't that make sub-sub level items become  sub-sub-sub-sub level? (double the items at double depth?)

What happens when you reset the transforms of a child of a parent that's somewhere in space, pointing somewhere?  
 (0 zeroing it's transforms) 
the item snaps to world center?  and not to whatever position/orientation of it's parent?


  
On 09/11/17 11:01, Morten Bartholdy wrote:



  Thanks guys - there is plenty to investigate here :)

//MB



  

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Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Martin]

electKey -clear ;
>> rotate -r -os -fo 32.234531 0 0 ;
>> rotate -r -os -fo 0 33.615086 0 ;
>> select -r pCone1 ;
>> selectKey -clear ;
>> if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` )setKeyframe 
>> "pCone1.tz";
>> currentTime 30 ;
>> move -r -ls -wd 0 0 -37.704086 ;
>> if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` )setKeyframe 
>> "pCone1.tz";
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Joey
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
>> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ponthieux, 
>> Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
>> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 9:52 AM
>> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
>> Subject: RE: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms
>> 
>> More than likely this has something to do with the way your hierarchy is 
>> organized. There is no reason why you can't do this. The key to making this 
>> work is that the gun cannot have had its pivot or transforms modified in 
>> relation to the child. The object as child to the gun must be zero-centric 
>> to it. In other words, the gun must be the "world" coordinates for the gun. 
>> Does that make sense?
>> 
>> Run the MEL commands below in your script editor in an empty scene. See 
>> specifically the angle of locator2 and the keyframed z translation of 
>> pCone1. Move locator1 around at will, and you can change the orientation of 
>> locator2 if you desire, but the cone's motion is always maintained on Z axis 
>> relative everything it is parented to. And it is only animated explicitly on 
>> Z. See the Graph editor for pCone1. Is this similar to what you are trying 
>> to accomplish?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> file -f -new;
>> spaceLocator -p 0 0 0;
>> updateRenderOverride;
>> spaceLocator -p 0 0 0;
>> CreatePolygonCone;
>> polyCone -r 1 -h 2 -sx 20 -sy 1 -sz 0 -ax 0 1 0 -rcp 0 -cuv 3 -ch 1; parent 
>> pCone1 locator2 ; select -r locator2 ; selectKey -clear ; parent locator2 
>> locator1 ; select -r locator2 ; selectKey -clear ; rotate -r -os -fo 
>> 9.453111 0 0 ; setAttr "locator2.rotateX" 45; select -r pCone1 ; selectKey 
>> -clear ; if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` 
>> )setKeyframe "pCone1.tz"; currentTime 30 ; move -r -ls -wd 0 0 -8.127347 ; 
>> if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` )setKeyframe 
>> "pCone1.tz"; currentTime 22 ; selectKey -clear ; currentTime 15 ; select -r 
>> locator2 ; selectKey -clear ; select -r locator2 pCone1 ; selectKey -clear ; 
>> select -r pCone1 ; selectKey -clear ;
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Joey Ponthieux
>> __
>> Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not 
>> represent the opinions of NASA or any other party.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
>> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Morten 
>> Bartholdy
>> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 6:17 AM
>> To: Userlist, Softimage <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
>> Subject: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms
>> 
>> So I understand (to some degree) that there are fundamental differences 
>> between the  way transformations are handled in Maya vs Soft, but I just ran 
>> into something which on the surface looks simple, but is quite mindboggling. 
>> Hopefully it is just a case of Mayas way of hiding useful stuff in some 
>> obscure submenu or relationship editor, but here goes:
>> 
>> I am doing some very simple keyframe animation in Maya (one of the few 
>> things that does not drive me entirely crazy) and am animating a thingy 
>> which is parented to a gun which is pointed in a particular direction. I 
>> just want it to fly of on its local z-axis so I select it, set Transform 
>> Tool Settings, Axis Orientation to Object, key frame translate out along 
>> z-axis and keyframe. Now I want to edit the function curves to make sure it 
>> accelerates as desired, open the graph editor and see graph representation 
>> of its motion is in world space, ie. it is not only animated on the z-axis, 
>> but also on x and Y. Obviously editing these curves  manually will easily 
>> lead to havi

RE: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Morten Bartholdy]

Thanks guys - there is plenty to investigate here :)

//MB



> Den 11. september 2017 klokken 16:50 skrev "Ponthieux, Joseph G. 
> (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]" <j.ponthi...@nasa.gov>:
> 
> 
> Here is another example which is probably closer to what you really want. I'm 
> making that assumption of course with no knowledge of your scene. (BTW, 
> ignore the cone2 and pipe2, they are left behind as a result of my editing 
> the MEL. 
> 
> There are some details in the original MEL which are left out or cryptic. 
> This is an attempt to explain that.
> 
> What you can't easily see in the MEL that I am doing at several steps, is 
> that when the Pipe and Cone are resting as children to locator2 I am 
> executing Freeze Transformations then Reset Transformations on both the Pipe 
> and Cone  after all repositioning is final. This effectively zeroes them out 
> in relation to their parent. This works if everything is aligned properly in 
> original construction. 
> 
> The MEL command below that represents that freezing action on the transforms 
> is "makeIdentity". I use Freeze then Reset because Freeze zeroes out the 
> pivots, Reset zeroes out the transforms sending the transform "center" back 
> to "world zero". The actual MEL commands are :
> 
> FreezeTransformations;
> ResetTransformations;
> 
> They are normally executed from Modify. They can be seen in MEL if you set 
> the script editor to Echo All Commands. It may not look like Reset is doing 
> anything if you have not moved the object away from world center. Reset's 
> action will only be evident if you move the object to something of non-zero 
> translation. Generally its just habit after 20 years, I always execute Freeze 
> then Reset as a default part of the process. If the object wasn't moved, it 
> wont hurt it.
> 
> 
> A synopsis of the process is as follows:
> 
> Create, rotate and move the pipe. Preferably at world center and its length 
> aligned with z axis. 
> Create, rotate, and move the  cone (analog for a bullet I guess). Also at 
> world center and also aligned with z axis for z translation in relation to 
> the pipe.
> Parent both under a locator. Also at World center. Do not move or change its 
> position or orientation.
> Execute Freeze/Reset on both Pipe and Cone.
> Move & rotate the locator at will. Cone should follow the pipe and be keyable 
> as translation only in the z axis to follow the pipe.
>  
> 
> Here is the MEL to demonstrate.
> 
> 
> 
> file -f -new;
> CreatePolygonCone;
> polyCone -r 1 -h 2 -sx 20 -sy 1 -sz 0 -ax 0 1 0 -rcp 0 -cuv 3 -ch 1; 
> setAttr "pCone1.rotateX" -90;
> CreatePolygonPipe;
> polyPipe -r 1 -h 2 -t 0.5 -sa 20 -sh 1 -sc 0 -ax 0 1 0 -cuv 1 -rcp 0 -ch 1;
> setAttr "pPipe1.rotateX" -90;
> select -cl  ;
> spaceLocator -p 0 0 0;
> spaceLocator -p 0 0 0; 
> select -r locator1 ;
> selectKey -clear ;
> select -r locator2 ;
> selectKey -clear ;
> parent locator2 locator1 ;
> parent pPipe1 locator2 ; 
> select -r pCone1 ;
> selectKey -clear ;
> parent pCone1 locator2 ; 
> select -r locator2 ;
> selectKey -clear ;
> select -r pPipe1 ;
> selectKey -clear ;
> makeIdentity -apply true -t 1 -r 1 -s 1 -n 0 -pn 1;
> select -r pCone1 ;
> selectKey -clear ;
> makeIdentity -apply true -t 1 -r 1 -s 1 -n 0 -pn 1;
> select -r pPipe1 ;
> selectKey -clear ;
> setAttr "pPipe1.scaleZ" 10;
> select -addFirst polyPipe1 ;
> setAttr "polyPipe1.thickness" .1;
> makeIdentity -apply true -t 1 -r 1 -s 1 -n 0 -pn 1;
> select -r locator1 ;
> selectKey -clear ;
> rotate -r -os -fo 32.234531 0 0 ;
> rotate -r -os -fo 0 33.615086 0 ;
> select -r pCone1 ;
> selectKey -clear ;
> if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` )setKeyframe 
> "pCone1.tz";
> currentTime 30 ;
> move -r -ls -wd 0 0 -37.704086 ;
> if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` )setKeyframe 
> "pCone1.tz";
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joey
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ponthieux, 
> Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 9:52 AM
> To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
> Subject: RE: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms
> 
> More than likely this has something to do with the way your hierarchy is 
> organized. There is no reason why you can't do this. The key to making this 
> work is that the gun cannot have had its pivot or transforms modified in 
> relation to the child. The o

RE: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]]

Here is another example which is probably closer to what you really want. I'm 
making that assumption of course with no knowledge of your scene. (BTW, ignore 
the cone2 and pipe2, they are left behind as a result of my editing the MEL. 

There are some details in the original MEL which are left out or cryptic. This 
is an attempt to explain that.

What you can't easily see in the MEL that I am doing at several steps, is that 
when the Pipe and Cone are resting as children to locator2 I am executing 
Freeze Transformations then Reset Transformations on both the Pipe and Cone  
after all repositioning is final. This effectively zeroes them out in relation 
to their parent. This works if everything is aligned properly in original 
construction. 

The MEL command below that represents that freezing action on the transforms is 
"makeIdentity". I use Freeze then Reset because Freeze zeroes out the pivots, 
Reset zeroes out the transforms sending the transform "center" back to "world 
zero". The actual MEL commands are :

FreezeTransformations;
ResetTransformations;

They are normally executed from Modify. They can be seen in MEL if you set the 
script editor to Echo All Commands. It may not look like Reset is doing 
anything if you have not moved the object away from world center. Reset's 
action will only be evident if you move the object to something of non-zero 
translation. Generally its just habit after 20 years, I always execute Freeze 
then Reset as a default part of the process. If the object wasn't moved, it 
wont hurt it.


A synopsis of the process is as follows:

Create, rotate and move the pipe. Preferably at world center and its length 
aligned with z axis. 
Create, rotate, and move the  cone (analog for a bullet I guess). Also at world 
center and also aligned with z axis for z translation in relation to the pipe.
Parent both under a locator. Also at World center. Do not move or change its 
position or orientation.
Execute Freeze/Reset on both Pipe and Cone.
Move & rotate the locator at will. Cone should follow the pipe and be keyable 
as translation only in the z axis to follow the pipe.
 

Here is the MEL to demonstrate.



file -f -new;
CreatePolygonCone;
polyCone -r 1 -h 2 -sx 20 -sy 1 -sz 0 -ax 0 1 0 -rcp 0 -cuv 3 -ch 1; 
setAttr "pCone1.rotateX" -90;
CreatePolygonPipe;
polyPipe -r 1 -h 2 -t 0.5 -sa 20 -sh 1 -sc 0 -ax 0 1 0 -cuv 1 -rcp 0 -ch 1;
setAttr "pPipe1.rotateX" -90;
select -cl  ;
spaceLocator -p 0 0 0;
spaceLocator -p 0 0 0; 
select -r locator1 ;
selectKey -clear ;
select -r locator2 ;
selectKey -clear ;
parent locator2 locator1 ;
parent pPipe1 locator2 ; 
select -r pCone1 ;
selectKey -clear ;
parent pCone1 locator2 ; 
select -r locator2 ;
selectKey -clear ;
select -r pPipe1 ;
selectKey -clear ;
makeIdentity -apply true -t 1 -r 1 -s 1 -n 0 -pn 1;
select -r pCone1 ;
selectKey -clear ;
makeIdentity -apply true -t 1 -r 1 -s 1 -n 0 -pn 1;
select -r pPipe1 ;
selectKey -clear ;
setAttr "pPipe1.scaleZ" 10;
select -addFirst polyPipe1 ;
setAttr "polyPipe1.thickness" .1;
makeIdentity -apply true -t 1 -r 1 -s 1 -n 0 -pn 1;
select -r locator1 ;
selectKey -clear ;
rotate -r -os -fo 32.234531 0 0 ;
rotate -r -os -fo 0 33.615086 0 ;
select -r pCone1 ;
selectKey -clear ;
if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` )setKeyframe 
"pCone1.tz";
currentTime 30 ;
move -r -ls -wd 0 0 -37.704086 ;
if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` )setKeyframe 
"pCone1.tz";




Joey






-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ponthieux, Joseph 
G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 9:52 AM
To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com
Subject: RE: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

More than likely this has something to do with the way your hierarchy is 
organized. There is no reason why you can't do this. The key to making this 
work is that the gun cannot have had its pivot or transforms modified in 
relation to the child. The object as child to the gun must be zero-centric to 
it. In other words, the gun must be the "world" coordinates for the gun. Does 
that make sense?

Run the MEL commands below in your script editor in an empty scene. See 
specifically the angle of locator2 and the keyframed z translation of pCone1. 
Move locator1 around at will, and you can change the orientation of locator2 if 
you desire, but the cone's motion is always maintained on Z axis relative 
everything it is parented to. And it is only animated explicitly on Z. See the 
Graph editor for pCone1. Is this similar to what you are trying to accomplish?




file -f -new;
spaceLocator -p 0 0 0;
updateRenderOverride;
spaceLocator -p 0 0 0;
CreatePolygonCone;
polyCone -r 1 -h 2 -sx 20 -sy 1 -sz 0 -ax 0 1 0 -rcp 0 -cuv 3 -ch 1; parent 

Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Anto Matkovic]

While it won't help with global-local switching - just in case you don't know 
already when it comes to 'motion path' thing -  there's relative new feature 
called "editable motion trail", basically is function curve in 3d viewport, 
imho it's nice feature, worth to try.
  From: Morten Bartholdy <x...@colorshopvfx.dk>
 To: "Userlist, Softimage" <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com> 
 Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 12:16 PM
 Subject: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms
   
So I understand (to some degree) that there are fundamental differences between 
the  way transformations are handled in Maya vs Soft, but I just ran into 
something which on the surface looks simple, but is quite mindboggling. 
Hopefully it is just a case of Mayas way of hiding useful stuff in some obscure 
submenu or relationship editor, but here goes:

I am doing some very simple keyframe animation in Maya (one of the few things 
that does not drive me entirely crazy) and am animating a thingy which is 
parented to a gun which is pointed in a particular direction. I just want it to 
fly of on its local z-axis so I select it, set Transform Tool Settings, Axis 
Orientation to Object, key frame translate out along z-axis and keyframe. Now I 
want to edit the function curves to make sure it accelerates as desired, open 
the graph editor and see graph representation of its motion is in world space, 
ie. it is not only animated on the z-axis, but also on x and Y. Obviously 
editing these curves  manually will easily lead to having the object not flying 
in a straight line...

In this case I could draw a curve to use as motion path, but is is more 
cumbersome (like so many things in Maya) and for many reasons I would really 
prefer to be able to switch between World space and Object space in the Graph 
Editor. Our resident Maya artist has looked for similar functionality many 
times through different Maya versions, so far without luck, so she can not 
offer relief from this specific lack of brainpower on the part of the Maya devs.

Can Maya knowledgeable people here confirm this fundamental lack of 
functionality or perhaps tell where I find it, or barring that, offer advice 
regarding how to achieve something similar?

Thanks (sigh)

Morten
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RE: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]]

More than likely this has something to do with the way your hierarchy is 
organized. There is no reason why you can't do this. The key to making this 
work is that the gun cannot have had its pivot or transforms modified in 
relation to the child. The object as child to the gun must be zero-centric to 
it. In other words, the gun must be the "world" coordinates for the gun. Does 
that make sense?

Run the MEL commands below in your script editor in an empty scene. See 
specifically the angle of locator2 and the keyframed z translation of pCone1. 
Move locator1 around at will, and you can change the orientation of locator2 if 
you desire, but the cone's motion is always maintained on Z axis relative 
everything it is parented to. And it is only animated explicitly on Z. See the 
Graph editor for pCone1. Is this similar to what you are trying to accomplish?




file -f -new;
spaceLocator -p 0 0 0; 
updateRenderOverride;
spaceLocator -p 0 0 0;
CreatePolygonCone;
polyCone -r 1 -h 2 -sx 20 -sy 1 -sz 0 -ax 0 1 0 -rcp 0 -cuv 3 -ch 1;
parent pCone1 locator2 ;
select -r locator2 ;
selectKey -clear ;
parent locator2 locator1 ;
select -r locator2 ;
selectKey -clear ;
rotate -r -os -fo 9.453111 0 0 ;
setAttr "locator2.rotateX" 45;
select -r pCone1 ;
selectKey -clear ;
if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` )setKeyframe 
"pCone1.tz";
currentTime 30 ;
move -r -ls -wd 0 0 -8.127347 ;
if( `getAttr -k "pCone1.tz"`||`getAttr -channelBox "pCone1.tz"` )setKeyframe 
"pCone1.tz";
currentTime 22 ;
selectKey -clear ;
currentTime 15 ;
select -r locator2 ;
selectKey -clear ;
select -r locator2 pCone1 ;
selectKey -clear ;
select -r pCone1 ;
selectKey -clear ;





Joey Ponthieux
__
Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not 
represent the opinions of NASA or any other party.






-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Morten Bartholdy
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2017 6:17 AM
To: Userlist, Softimage <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

So I understand (to some degree) that there are fundamental differences between 
the  way transformations are handled in Maya vs Soft, but I just ran into 
something which on the surface looks simple, but is quite mindboggling. 
Hopefully it is just a case of Mayas way of hiding useful stuff in some obscure 
submenu or relationship editor, but here goes:

I am doing some very simple keyframe animation in Maya (one of the few things 
that does not drive me entirely crazy) and am animating a thingy which is 
parented to a gun which is pointed in a particular direction. I just want it to 
fly of on its local z-axis so I select it, set Transform Tool Settings, Axis 
Orientation to Object, key frame translate out along z-axis and keyframe. Now I 
want to edit the function curves to make sure it accelerates as desired, open 
the graph editor and see graph representation of its motion is in world space, 
ie. it is not only animated on the z-axis, but also on x and Y. Obviously 
editing these curves  manually will easily lead to having the object not flying 
in a straight line...

In this case I could draw a curve to use as motion path, but is is more 
cumbersome (like so many things in Maya) and for many reasons I would really 
prefer to be able to switch between World space and Object space in the Graph 
Editor. Our resident Maya artist has looked for similar functionality many 
times through different Maya versions, so far without luck, so she can not 
offer relief from this specific lack of brainpower on the part of the Maya devs.

Can Maya knowledgeable people here confirm this fundamental lack of 
functionality or perhaps tell where I find it, or barring that, offer advice 
regarding how to achieve something similar?

Thanks (sigh)

Morten
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Re: Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Tom Kleinenberg]

I think that you may be out of luck - Maya has no conception of World vs
Object space. If you parented the object under a group, you may be able to
set the orientation of that according to the gun and then you'd only have
to animated it in 1 axis (maybe 2 if there's drop... but at least on a ZY
plane rather than through XYZ). You can also use a Motion Trail (Animate >
Create Motion Trail) for a visual representation. Little video here :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nst3db21N-E

I don't know if those suggestions are any help.

On 11 September 2017 at 11:16, Morten Bartholdy  wrote:

> So I understand (to some degree) that there are fundamental differences
> between the  way transformations are handled in Maya vs Soft, but I just
> ran into something which on the surface looks simple, but is quite
> mindboggling. Hopefully it is just a case of Mayas way of hiding useful
> stuff in some obscure submenu or relationship editor, but here goes:
>
> I am doing some very simple keyframe animation in Maya (one of the few
> things that does not drive me entirely crazy) and am animating a thingy
> which is parented to a gun which is pointed in a particular direction. I
> just want it to fly of on its local z-axis so I select it, set Transform
> Tool Settings, Axis Orientation to Object, key frame translate out along
> z-axis and keyframe. Now I want to edit the function curves to make sure it
> accelerates as desired, open the graph editor and see graph representation
> of its motion is in world space, ie. it is not only animated on the z-axis,
> but also on x and Y. Obviously editing these curves  manually will easily
> lead to having the object not flying in a straight line...
>
> In this case I could draw a curve to use as motion path, but is is more
> cumbersome (like so many things in Maya) and for many reasons I would
> really prefer to be able to switch between World space and Object space in
> the Graph Editor. Our resident Maya artist has looked for similar
> functionality many times through different Maya versions, so far without
> luck, so she can not offer relief from this specific lack of brainpower on
> the part of the Maya devs.
>
> Can Maya knowledgeable people here confirm this fundamental lack of
> functionality or perhaps tell where I find it, or barring that, offer
> advice regarding how to achieve something similar?
>
> Thanks (sigh)
>
> Morten
> --
> Softimage Mailing List.
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com
> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>
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Maya - what were they thinking 2 - transforms

[Morten Bartholdy]

So I understand (to some degree) that there are fundamental differences between 
the  way transformations are handled in Maya vs Soft, but I just ran into 
something which on the surface looks simple, but is quite mindboggling. 
Hopefully it is just a case of Mayas way of hiding useful stuff in some obscure 
submenu or relationship editor, but here goes:

I am doing some very simple keyframe animation in Maya (one of the few things 
that does not drive me entirely crazy) and am animating a thingy which is 
parented to a gun which is pointed in a particular direction. I just want it to 
fly of on its local z-axis so I select it, set Transform Tool Settings, Axis 
Orientation to Object, key frame translate out along z-axis and keyframe. Now I 
want to edit the function curves to make sure it accelerates as desired, open 
the graph editor and see graph representation of its motion is in world space, 
ie. it is not only animated on the z-axis, but also on x and Y. Obviously 
editing these curves  manually will easily lead to having the object not flying 
in a straight line...

In this case I could draw a curve to use as motion path, but is is more 
cumbersome (like so many things in Maya) and for many reasons I would really 
prefer to be able to switch between World space and Object space in the Graph 
Editor. Our resident Maya artist has looked for similar functionality many 
times through different Maya versions, so far without luck, so she can not 
offer relief from this specific lack of brainpower on the part of the Maya devs.

Can Maya knowledgeable people here confirm this fundamental lack of 
functionality or perhaps tell where I find it, or barring that, offer advice 
regarding how to achieve something similar?

Thanks (sigh)

Morten
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"unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.

Re: What were they thinking....

[Tom Kleinenberg]

I was showing one of the animators at work that in Maya you can select 2
objects and then "Tab" through the Transforms to match transforms. He was
quite impressed, could be useful. I then tried to explain to him why it
probably was not because Maya has no easily accessible global object world
space, so as soon as something is transformed under any kind of parent, you
lose the useful information. I could see he wasn't getting it and I think
that's the problem. Unless you've used XSI you're unlikely to understand
how useful that "dual-coordinate" method was.

I agree with Matt's point that it should be doable, as an additional data
set alongside the existing stuff. I doubt it will happen, because the will
isn't there, because nobody understands how useful it is. I also agree the
documentation needs a dramatic overhaul, because... I mean... wtf is that.
I suppose it keeps Digital Tutors in business for low-level reference
material.

On 1 September 2017 at 00:52, Matt Lind <speye...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> What you described, Joey, is nothing more than point of reference.  What is
> local in one perspective and global in another, can be modeled as
> parent/child relationships in many cases.  It can be done, it's just a
> matter of studying the ripple effect of changing a core fundamental
> feature.
> It may not be a practical investment of time, but it can be done.
>
> I am sure any one of us could make a very long laundry list of what we'd
> like to see carried over from Softimage.  I think it would be better to
> describe them from a function point of view rather than specific named
> feature.
>
> For example, ability to use global transforms to manipulate an object
> instead of just local as Maya currently supports.
>
> The ability to define your keyboard commands so the stuff you use 80% of
> the
> time doesn't get stepped on by esoteric stuff.  For example, if "A" frames
> all objects in a viewport, then that key should not be used for something
> less important (or completely unimportant) such as changing your layout to
> be in animation mode.  Softimage put all the important stuff in the center
> of the keyboard where your hand naturally rests, and put the lesser
> important stuff at the perimeter.  the less important it was, the more
> hoops
> you had to jump through to access it.  That's how it should be.  Maya has
> no
> system.  Example: must use ALT-MMB to pan the camera.  WTF?  Not only is
> that out of the way, but requires uncommon use of key and mouse to perform.
> It's certainly hard on my arthritic wrists.
>
>
> Probably the most important change I would like to see is rewriting of the
> documentation.  Whoever wrote the current docs has poor organizational
> skills and doesn't have a mastery of the English language.  Topics
> frequently point to other pages only for those pages to point back to where
> you started without answering your question.  Many pages have so little
> information it's not worth having pages for them.  The SDK documents aren't
> much better as they fail to mention some very important pieces too as
> everything is written from the point of view of hindsight (i.e. written as
> if you already know the SDK.  Not designed for newcomers).  Heck, the C++
> SDK docs don't even alphabetize the methods available in a class.
> Seriously?  Ever look at a larger class like MFnMesh and try to find the
> one
> method you need to get UV space info?  It's a chore.  As a direct
> comparison, take a look at the Maya Python API docs which describe many of
> the same methods.  notice they are alphabetized, and while that doesn't
> solve the problem, it certainly makes it less of a chore.
>
> comparison - C++ vs. Python documentation of MFnMesh class:
>
> C++:
> http://help.autodesk.com/view/MAYAUL/2017/ENU/?guid=__cpp_
> ref_class_m_fn_mesh_html
> Python:
> http://help.autodesk.com/view/MAYAUL/2017/ENU/?guid=__py_
> ref_class_open_maya_1_1_m_fn_mesh_html
>
>
> Ideally, I'd like to see the SDK docs written like the Softimage scripting
> object model documentation where the methods were listed above, and the
> properties listed below in grid fashion.  That was a powerful arrangement
> of
> information to make learning easy.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 16:11:08 +
> From: "Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]"
> <j.ponthi...@nasa.gov>
> Subject: RE: What were they thinking
>
> I know this is not going to be popular, but I'm going to suggest that no
> one
> should get their hopes up about ever seeing that changed.
>
> Folks need to understand that transforms, matrices, centers (pivots) and
> their breakout and order are deeply embedded in Maya's 

RE: What were they thinking....

[Matt Lind]

What you described, Joey, is nothing more than point of reference.  What is 
local in one perspective and global in another, can be modeled as 
parent/child relationships in many cases.  It can be done, it's just a 
matter of studying the ripple effect of changing a core fundamental feature. 
It may not be a practical investment of time, but it can be done.

I am sure any one of us could make a very long laundry list of what we'd 
like to see carried over from Softimage.  I think it would be better to 
describe them from a function point of view rather than specific named 
feature.

For example, ability to use global transforms to manipulate an object 
instead of just local as Maya currently supports.

The ability to define your keyboard commands so the stuff you use 80% of the 
time doesn't get stepped on by esoteric stuff.  For example, if "A" frames 
all objects in a viewport, then that key should not be used for something 
less important (or completely unimportant) such as changing your layout to 
be in animation mode.  Softimage put all the important stuff in the center 
of the keyboard where your hand naturally rests, and put the lesser 
important stuff at the perimeter.  the less important it was, the more hoops 
you had to jump through to access it.  That's how it should be.  Maya has no 
system.  Example: must use ALT-MMB to pan the camera.  WTF?  Not only is 
that out of the way, but requires uncommon use of key and mouse to perform. 
It's certainly hard on my arthritic wrists.


Probably the most important change I would like to see is rewriting of the 
documentation.  Whoever wrote the current docs has poor organizational 
skills and doesn't have a mastery of the English language.  Topics 
frequently point to other pages only for those pages to point back to where 
you started without answering your question.  Many pages have so little 
information it's not worth having pages for them.  The SDK documents aren't 
much better as they fail to mention some very important pieces too as 
everything is written from the point of view of hindsight (i.e. written as 
if you already know the SDK.  Not designed for newcomers).  Heck, the C++ 
SDK docs don't even alphabetize the methods available in a class. 
Seriously?  Ever look at a larger class like MFnMesh and try to find the one 
method you need to get UV space info?  It's a chore.  As a direct 
comparison, take a look at the Maya Python API docs which describe many of 
the same methods.  notice they are alphabetized, and while that doesn't 
solve the problem, it certainly makes it less of a chore.

comparison - C++ vs. Python documentation of MFnMesh class:

C++: 
http://help.autodesk.com/view/MAYAUL/2017/ENU/?guid=__cpp_ref_class_m_fn_mesh_html
Python: 
http://help.autodesk.com/view/MAYAUL/2017/ENU/?guid=__py_ref_class_open_maya_1_1_m_fn_mesh_html


Ideally, I'd like to see the SDK docs written like the Softimage scripting 
object model documentation where the methods were listed above, and the 
properties listed below in grid fashion.  That was a powerful arrangement of 
information to make learning easy.

Matt









Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2017 16:11:08 +
From: "Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]"
<j.ponthi...@nasa.gov>
Subject: RE: What were they thinking

I know this is not going to be popular, but I'm going to suggest that no one 
should get their hopes up about ever seeing that changed.

Folks need to understand that transforms, matrices, centers (pivots) and 
their breakout and order are deeply embedded in Maya's internal structure. 
Further, when they were established PA and TAV were used as precedence for 
their design. For example some of it is considered from the vantage point of 
a model centric zero world position, because prior to Maya, everything in 
TAV's modeler (Model) was modeled from a world zero relationship to the 
model in Model. The model was then imported into its animation editor 
(PreView), or other tools like Dynamation, and what was world zero for the 
model in Model became the Transform center for the object in Preview.

If you are old enough to be familiar with TAV's behavior, and to have used 
it, you would understand why Maya was designed the way it was. You can't 
take XSI or SI3D's way of doing these things and compare them 1:1 to Maya. 
They are inherently different and for specific reasons. XSI and SI3D gave us 
an abstraction layer for centre/pivot control which, in my own opinion, was 
not only unique but radically out of step with the rest of the CGI world. If 
one wants to argue that it was forward thinking I suspect argument could be 
made, but it sure made it easy, maybe even too easy, to alter pivots 
mid-stream in SI.

Once you get used to pivots and understand how to edit pivots (or rather 
when not to edit pivots) in Maya, they are really not that difficult to deal 
with. But you literally have to ignore the way you were doing it in 
Softimage and take it fro

RE: What were they thinking....

[Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]]

I know this is not going to be popular, but I'm going to suggest that no one 
should get their hopes up about ever seeing that changed.

Folks need to understand that transforms, matrices, centers (pivots) and their 
breakout and order are deeply embedded in Maya's internal structure. Further, 
when they were established PA and TAV were used as precedence for their design. 
For example some of it is considered from the vantage point of a model centric 
zero world position, because prior to Maya, everything in TAV's modeler (Model) 
was modeled from a world zero relationship to the model in Model. The model was 
then imported into its animation editor (PreView), or other tools like 
Dynamation, and what was world zero for the model in Model became the Transform 
center for the object in Preview.

If you are old enough to be familiar with TAV's behavior, and to have used it, 
you would understand why Maya was designed the way it was. You can't take XSI 
or SI3D's way of doing these things and compare them 1:1 to Maya. They are 
inherently different and for specific reasons. XSI and SI3D gave us an 
abstraction layer for centre/pivot control which, in my own opinion, was not 
only unique but radically out of step with the rest of the CGI world. If one 
wants to argue that it was forward thinking I suspect argument could be made, 
but it sure made it easy, maybe even too easy, to alter pivots mid-stream in SI.

Once you get used to pivots and understand how to edit pivots (or rather when 
not to edit pivots) in Maya, they are really not that difficult to deal with. 
But you literally have to ignore the way you were doing it in Softimage and 
take it from the Maya way. If you try to assume a Softimage centric way of 
pivots in Maya, or even try to visualize it that way, you are going to be 
miserable. It doesn't work that way, and more than likely, probably never will.

--
Joey 
__
Opinions stated here-in are strictly those of the author and do not 
represent the opinions of NASA or any other party.



 

-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Morten Bartholdy
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 10:36 AM
To: r...@casema.nl; Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list 
<softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Re: What were they thinking

- and there is the idiosyncrasy of the concept of centers and pivots and how 
the position is displayed...

MB


> Den 31. august 2017 klokken 15:39 skrev Rob Wuijster <r...@casema.nl>:
> 
> 
> same here ;)
> 
> Rob
> 
> \/-\/\/
> 
> On 31-8-2017 15:32, Morten Bartholdy wrote:
> > Well a lot of XSI functionality has popped up in the modeling section of 
> > Maya 2018. Still looking for UI logic and straightforward useability.
> >
> > MB
> >
> >
> >
> >> Den 31. august 2017 klokken 14:16 skrev Rob Wuijster <r...@casema.nl>:
> >>
> >>
> >> Yet I'm foolishly waiting for Maya to pick up some of the SI 
> >> workflow and menu setups..
> >> e.g. forest of mesh options en menu's.
> >>
> >>
> >> Rob
> >>
> >> \/-\/\/
> >>
> >> On 31-8-2017 13:55, Morten Bartholdy wrote:
> >>> It is good to know that there is at least one sensible person in 
> >>> close proximity of Maya development :)
> >>>
> >>> Morten
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Den 30. august 2017 klokken 17:28 skrev Luc-Eric Rousseau 
> >>>> <luceri...@gmail.com>:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ok, I'll have someone take a look. thanks
> >>>>
> >>>> On 30 August 2017 at 10:18, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES 
> >>>> II] <j.ponthi...@nasa.gov> wrote:
> >>>>> No, unfortunately I'm not confused about this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you build a scene, save that scene, there is no lingering copy 
> >>>>> clipboard file still resident in the temp directory, and you never hit 
> >>>>> CTRL-C, hitting CTRL-V while in the Outliner rereads the same exact 
> >>>>> scene you are currently in, and had just saved, back into itself.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It then begins telling me with via the progress bar, that the scene I 
> >>>>> had just saved, in my particular case with all 40,000+ objects, is now 
> >>>>> being read into the working scene.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Which means my scene no

Re: What were they thinking....

[Morten Bartholdy]

Well a lot of XSI functionality has popped up in the modeling section of Maya 
2018. Still looking for UI logic and straightforward useability.

MB



> Den 31. august 2017 klokken 14:16 skrev Rob Wuijster <r...@casema.nl>:
> 
> 
> Yet I'm foolishly waiting for Maya to pick up some of the SI workflow 
> and menu setups..
> e.g. forest of mesh options en menu's.
> 
> 
> Rob
> 
> \/-\/\/
> 
> On 31-8-2017 13:55, Morten Bartholdy wrote:
> > It is good to know that there is at least one sensible person in close 
> > proximity of Maya development :)
> >
> > Morten
> >
> >
> >
> >> Den 30. august 2017 klokken 17:28 skrev Luc-Eric Rousseau 
> >> <luceri...@gmail.com>:
> >>
> >>
> >> ok, I'll have someone take a look. thanks
> >>
> >> On 30 August 2017 at 10:18, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
> >> <j.ponthi...@nasa.gov> wrote:
> >>> No, unfortunately I'm not confused about this.
> >>>
> >>> If you build a scene, save that scene, there is no lingering copy 
> >>> clipboard file still resident in the temp directory, and you never hit 
> >>> CTRL-C, hitting CTRL-V while in the Outliner rereads the same exact scene 
> >>> you are currently in, and had just saved, back into itself.
> >>>
> >>> It then begins telling me with via the progress bar, that the scene I had 
> >>> just saved, in my particular case with all 40,000+ objects, is now being 
> >>> read into the working scene.
> >>>
> >>> Which means my scene now has two iterations of itself present in the 
> >>> scene after it is finished.
> >>>
> >>> The repro steps for this are here:
> >>>
> >>> https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/maya-forum/ctrl-v-reads-a-copy-of-the-scene-into-itself/m-p/7329534#M46237
> >>>
> >>> The point of this "feature" was apparently to facilitate the copying of 
> >>> objects across independent Maya sessions. But the cutCopyPaste.mel 
> >>> appears to be caching the current scene name and decides to use that 
> >>> instead if copy has never been executed prior to the paste or if no 
> >>> clipboard file is available and found. It just summarily, and without 
> >>> warning, proceeds to "paste" the saved scene back into itself.
> >>>
> >>> The upshot is that CTRL-V assumes an input that was never given it by the 
> >>> user.
> >>>
> >>> I'm not sure why in the world I would ever want it to do that when I can 
> >>> use "import" to explicitly re-read the scene, or explicitly perform a 
> >>> copy on the active scene hierarchy, to accomplish the same result.
> >>>
> >>> Instead it is an uncalled for action that has the potential to cause 
> >>> severe loss of data. Which is what happened in my case, because when I 
> >>> went to delete the 40,000+ extra copies that I did not need, it was still 
> >>> trying to delete them a day later.
> >>>
> >>> Joey
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
> >>> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Luc-Eric 
> >>> Rousseau
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 9:51 AM
> >>> To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
> >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list 
> >>> <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: What were they thinking
> >>>
> >>>>Ctrl-V executes a scene read, of the currently saved scene into the
> >>>> existing scene This happens if you are in the outliner
> >>>>Its basically the equivalent of import scene
> >>> I think you're confused about this one.  Ctrl+V is just the "paste"
> >>> command and the clipboard is implemented by saving objects when you press 
> >>> ctrl+C, and later importing objects on paste from a temp scene.
> >>> Exactly the same as it is XSI.  The only thing new here is that a 
> >>> progress bar was added to the outliner to show progress when there is a 
> >>> massive number of nodes added, and the log window will say something 
> >>> "scene read in 1s" or something, which may be confusing you.
> >>> --
> >>> Softimage Mail

Re: What were they thinking....

[kenny wood]

I wonder if they can be bothered fixing the skin painting in the next
update ...which has never really worked properly

On 31 Aug 2017 14:14, "Gerbrand Nel" <nagv...@gmail.com> wrote:

> lol
> This is why I haven't unsubscribed to this list.
> Part of me wonders why we still talk about maya.
> The other part realizes that lots of you have no choice
> G
> On 2017/08/31 1:55 PM, Morten Bartholdy wrote:
> > It is good to know that there is at least one sensible person in close
> proximity of Maya development :)
> >
> > Morten
> >
> >
> >
> >> Den 30. august 2017 klokken 17:28 skrev Luc-Eric Rousseau <
> luceri...@gmail.com>:
> >>
> >>
> >> ok, I'll have someone take a look. thanks
> >>
> >> On 30 August 2017 at 10:18, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
> >> <j.ponthi...@nasa.gov> wrote:
> >>> No, unfortunately I'm not confused about this.
> >>>
> >>> If you build a scene, save that scene, there is no lingering copy
> clipboard file still resident in the temp directory, and you never hit
> CTRL-C, hitting CTRL-V while in the Outliner rereads the same exact scene
> you are currently in, and had just saved, back into itself.
> >>>
> >>> It then begins telling me with via the progress bar, that the scene I
> had just saved, in my particular case with all 40,000+ objects, is now
> being read into the working scene.
> >>>
> >>> Which means my scene now has two iterations of itself present in the
> scene after it is finished.
> >>>
> >>> The repro steps for this are here:
> >>>
> >>> https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/maya-forum/ctrl-v-reads-a-
> copy-of-the-scene-into-itself/m-p/7329534#M46237
> >>>
> >>> The point of this "feature" was apparently to facilitate the copying
> of objects across independent Maya sessions. But the cutCopyPaste.mel
> appears to be caching the current scene name and decides to use that
> instead if copy has never been executed prior to the paste or if no
> clipboard file is available and found. It just summarily, and without
> warning, proceeds to "paste" the saved scene back into itself.
> >>>
> >>> The upshot is that CTRL-V assumes an input that was never given it by
> the user.
> >>>
> >>> I'm not sure why in the world I would ever want it to do that when I
> can use "import" to explicitly re-read the scene, or explicitly perform a
> copy on the active scene hierarchy, to accomplish the same result.
> >>>
> >>> Instead it is an uncalled for action that has the potential to cause
> severe loss of data. Which is what happened in my case, because when I went
> to delete the 40,000+ extra copies that I did not need, it was still trying
> to delete them a day later.
> >>>
> >>> Joey
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:
> softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Luc-Eric Rousseau
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 9:51 AM
> >>> To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. https://groups.google.com/
> forum/#!forum/xsi_list <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: What were they thinking
> >>>
> >>>>Ctrl-V executes a scene read, of the currently saved scene into the
> >>>> existing scene This happens if you are in the outliner
> >>>>Its basically the equivalent of import scene
> >>> I think you're confused about this one.  Ctrl+V is just the "paste"
> >>> command and the clipboard is implemented by saving objects when you
> press ctrl+C, and later importing objects on paste from a temp scene.
> >>> Exactly the same as it is XSI.  The only thing new here is that a
> progress bar was added to the outliner to show progress when there is a
> massive number of nodes added, and the log window will say something "scene
> read in 1s" or something, which may be confusing you.
> >>> --
> >>> Softimage Mailing List.
> >>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com
> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Softimage Mailing List.
> >>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com
> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
> >> --
> >> Softimage Mailing List.
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> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
> > --
> > Softimage Mailing List.
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> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
> >
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>
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Re: What were they thinking....

[Gerbrand Nel]

lol
This is why I haven't unsubscribed to this list.
Part of me wonders why we still talk about maya.
The other part realizes that lots of you have no choice
G
On 2017/08/31 1:55 PM, Morten Bartholdy wrote:
> It is good to know that there is at least one sensible person in close 
> proximity of Maya development :)
>
> Morten
>
>
>
>> Den 30. august 2017 klokken 17:28 skrev Luc-Eric Rousseau 
>> <luceri...@gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>> ok, I'll have someone take a look. thanks
>>
>> On 30 August 2017 at 10:18, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
>> <j.ponthi...@nasa.gov> wrote:
>>> No, unfortunately I'm not confused about this.
>>>
>>> If you build a scene, save that scene, there is no lingering copy clipboard 
>>> file still resident in the temp directory, and you never hit CTRL-C, 
>>> hitting CTRL-V while in the Outliner rereads the same exact scene you are 
>>> currently in, and had just saved, back into itself.
>>>
>>> It then begins telling me with via the progress bar, that the scene I had 
>>> just saved, in my particular case with all 40,000+ objects, is now being 
>>> read into the working scene.
>>>
>>> Which means my scene now has two iterations of itself present in the scene 
>>> after it is finished.
>>>
>>> The repro steps for this are here:
>>>
>>> https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/maya-forum/ctrl-v-reads-a-copy-of-the-scene-into-itself/m-p/7329534#M46237
>>>
>>> The point of this "feature" was apparently to facilitate the copying of 
>>> objects across independent Maya sessions. But the cutCopyPaste.mel appears 
>>> to be caching the current scene name and decides to use that instead if 
>>> copy has never been executed prior to the paste or if no clipboard file is 
>>> available and found. It just summarily, and without warning, proceeds to 
>>> "paste" the saved scene back into itself.
>>>
>>> The upshot is that CTRL-V assumes an input that was never given it by the 
>>> user.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure why in the world I would ever want it to do that when I can 
>>> use "import" to explicitly re-read the scene, or explicitly perform a 
>>> copy on the active scene hierarchy, to accomplish the same result.
>>>
>>> Instead it is an uncalled for action that has the potential to cause severe 
>>> loss of data. Which is what happened in my case, because when I went to 
>>> delete the 40,000+ extra copies that I did not need, it was still trying to 
>>> delete them a day later.
>>>
>>> Joey
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
>>> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Luc-Eric 
>>> Rousseau
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 9:51 AM
>>> To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list 
>>> <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
>>> Subject: Re: What were they thinking
>>>
>>>>Ctrl-V executes a scene read, of the currently saved scene into the
>>>> existing scene This happens if you are in the outliner
>>>>Its basically the equivalent of import scene
>>> I think you're confused about this one.  Ctrl+V is just the "paste"
>>> command and the clipboard is implemented by saving objects when you press 
>>> ctrl+C, and later importing objects on paste from a temp scene.
>>> Exactly the same as it is XSI.  The only thing new here is that a progress 
>>> bar was added to the outliner to show progress when there is a massive 
>>> number of nodes added, and the log window will say something "scene read in 
>>> 1s" or something, which may be confusing you.
>>> --
>>> Softimage Mailing List.
>>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
>>> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Softimage Mailing List.
>>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
>>> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>> --
>> Softimage Mailing List.
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>> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
> --
> Softimage Mailing List.
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> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
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> ---
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>
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Re: What were they thinking....

[Luc-Eric Rousseau]

On 30 August 2017 at 04:44, Matt Lind  wrote:
> I've also experienced 'ghost' hotkeys in some other cases. Here it happens
> with certain modeling operators, let's say when M or R is pressed after
> extruding, Maya tries to switch the worskpace to modeling or rigging,
> something like that - for now I'm not completely sure about "procedure'',
> which by the way leads to dismantled interface, not to certain workspace
> suddenly requested by Maya (not me...). ?While I'm pretty sure I do not have
> any hotkey related to workspaces. Thanks for posting this, at least I know
> I'm not alone :).

This is a Qt5 bug that we're aware of and are fixing in a Maya 2018
update.   The Workspace drop down list at the top right of the screen
will be highlighted blue when it's about to occur, and you can click
on the viewport to get out of it.
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Re: What were they thinking....

[Luc-Eric Rousseau]

ok, I'll have someone take a look. thanks

On 30 August 2017 at 10:18, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
<j.ponthi...@nasa.gov> wrote:
> No, unfortunately I'm not confused about this.
>
> If you build a scene, save that scene, there is no lingering copy clipboard 
> file still resident in the temp directory, and you never hit CTRL-C, hitting 
> CTRL-V while in the Outliner rereads the same exact scene you are currently 
> in, and had just saved, back into itself.
>
> It then begins telling me with via the progress bar, that the scene I had 
> just saved, in my particular case with all 40,000+ objects, is now being read 
> into the working scene.
>
> Which means my scene now has two iterations of itself present in the scene 
> after it is finished.
>
> The repro steps for this are here:
>
> https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/maya-forum/ctrl-v-reads-a-copy-of-the-scene-into-itself/m-p/7329534#M46237
>
> The point of this "feature" was apparently to facilitate the copying of 
> objects across independent Maya sessions. But the cutCopyPaste.mel appears to 
> be caching the current scene name and decides to use that instead if copy has 
> never been executed prior to the paste or if no clipboard file is available 
> and found. It just summarily, and without warning, proceeds to "paste" the 
> saved scene back into itself.
>
> The upshot is that CTRL-V assumes an input that was never given it by the 
> user.
>
> I'm not sure why in the world I would ever want it to do that when I can use 
> "import" to explicitly re-read the scene, or explicitly perform a copy 
> on the active scene hierarchy, to accomplish the same result.
>
> Instead it is an uncalled for action that has the potential to cause severe 
> loss of data. Which is what happened in my case, because when I went to 
> delete the 40,000+ extra copies that I did not need, it was still trying to 
> delete them a day later.
>
> Joey
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
> [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Luc-Eric 
> Rousseau
> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 9:51 AM
> To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list 
> <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
> Subject: Re: What were they thinking
>
>>   Ctrl-V executes a scene read, of the currently saved scene into the
>> existing scene This happens if you are in the outliner
>>   Its basically the equivalent of import scene
>
> I think you're confused about this one.  Ctrl+V is just the "paste"
> command and the clipboard is implemented by saving objects when you press 
> ctrl+C, and later importing objects on paste from a temp scene.
> Exactly the same as it is XSI.  The only thing new here is that a progress 
> bar was added to the outliner to show progress when there is a massive number 
> of nodes added, and the log window will say something "scene read in 1s" or 
> something, which may be confusing you.
> --
> Softimage Mailing List.
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>
> --
> Softimage Mailing List.
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with 
> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.

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RE: What were they thinking....

[Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]]

No, unfortunately I'm not confused about this.

If you build a scene, save that scene, there is no lingering copy clipboard 
file still resident in the temp directory, and you never hit CTRL-C, hitting 
CTRL-V while in the Outliner rereads the same exact scene you are currently in, 
and had just saved, back into itself.

It then begins telling me with via the progress bar, that the scene I had just 
saved, in my particular case with all 40,000+ objects, is now being read into 
the working scene.

Which means my scene now has two iterations of itself present in the scene 
after it is finished.

The repro steps for this are here: 

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/maya-forum/ctrl-v-reads-a-copy-of-the-scene-into-itself/m-p/7329534#M46237
 
The point of this "feature" was apparently to facilitate the copying of objects 
across independent Maya sessions. But the cutCopyPaste.mel appears to be 
caching the current scene name and decides to use that instead if copy has 
never been executed prior to the paste or if no clipboard file is available and 
found. It just summarily, and without warning, proceeds to "paste" the saved 
scene back into itself.

The upshot is that CTRL-V assumes an input that was never given it by the user.

I'm not sure why in the world I would ever want it to do that when I can use 
"import" to explicitly re-read the scene, or explicitly perform a copy on 
the active scene hierarchy, to accomplish the same result.

Instead it is an uncalled for action that has the potential to cause severe 
loss of data. Which is what happened in my case, because when I went to delete 
the 40,000+ extra copies that I did not need, it was still trying to delete 
them a day later.

Joey



-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Luc-Eric Rousseau
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 9:51 AM
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list 
<softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Re: What were they thinking

>   Ctrl-V executes a scene read, of the currently saved scene into the 
> existing scene This happens if you are in the outliner
>   Its basically the equivalent of import scene

I think you're confused about this one.  Ctrl+V is just the "paste"
command and the clipboard is implemented by saving objects when you press 
ctrl+C, and later importing objects on paste from a temp scene.
Exactly the same as it is XSI.  The only thing new here is that a progress bar 
was added to the outliner to show progress when there is a massive number of 
nodes added, and the log window will say something "scene read in 1s" or 
something, which may be confusing you.
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"unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.

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Re: What were they thinking....

[Luc-Eric Rousseau]

>   Ctrl-V executes a scene read, of the currently saved scene into the 
> existing scene
> This happens if you are in the outliner
>   Its basically the equivalent of import scene

I think you're confused about this one.  Ctrl+V is just the "paste"
command and the clipboard is implemented by saving objects when you
press ctrl+C, and later importing objects on paste from a temp scene.
Exactly the same as it is XSI.  The only thing new here is that a
progress bar was added to the outliner to show progress when there is
a massive number of nodes added, and the log window will say something
"scene read in 1s" or something, which may be confusing you.
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Re: What were they thinking....

[Martin Yara]

When I'm scripting, and testing I usually have both hands on the keyboard,
so Ctrl+A, Ctrl+Enter has been the less painful workflow I've found.

Well, that or use Sublime, which was fine but didn't work quite well on
multiple instances of Maya. I think I'm going to try a few more IDEs.
Charcoal looks good.



On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 10:16 PM, Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]
<j.ponthi...@nasa.gov> wrote:

> Try using the Execute All command. It’s the >> icon about top center of
> the script editor. That should do what you want.
>
>
>
> Ideally it should have been be hotkeyed to CTRL-Numberpad Enter.
>
>
>
> Joey
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-bounces@
> listproc.autodesk.com] *On Behalf Of *Martin Yara
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 30, 2017 8:04 AM
> *To:* Official Softimage Users Mailing List. https://groups.google.com/
> forum/#!forum/xsi_list <softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
> *Subject:* Re: What were they thinking
>
>
>
>
>
> About the Scripting Editor, I also hate that I have to select all the code
> ctrl+A  before pressing ctrl+Enter or my code disappears.
>
>
>
> Martin
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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RE: What were they thinking....

[Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]]

Try using the Execute All command. It’s the >> icon about top center of the 
script editor. That should do what you want.

Ideally it should have been be hotkeyed to CTRL-Numberpad Enter.

Joey




From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Martin Yara
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2017 8:04 AM
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list 
<softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Re: What were they thinking


About the Scripting Editor, I also hate that I have to select all the code 
ctrl+A  before pressing ctrl+Enter or my code disappears.

Martin


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Re: What were they thinking....

[Martin Yara]

Yeah, that's what I meant. All the F keys work fine but they are in the
other side of the keyboard.

The right click flick, on the other hand, is incredible fast so I really
like to use it. But it doesn't work like the F keys and that's a pity. I
have to uncheck the joints filter or hide my joints everytime I want to
manipulate components. I have yet to see any usefulness in this behavior.

Martin

On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 9:32 PM, Toonafish  wrote:

> You can use F8 to switch to component mode, that way only the components
> of the active item will be selected.
>
> - Ronald
>
> >
> > Instead of F9, right click change to select vertices, drag your mouse
> > all over the character, and you will be selecting it's bones and your
> > selection filter will be back to object mode. WTF!
> >
> > I have to uncheck joints in the filter on the top menu so they can't
> > be selected if I want to manipulate components.
>
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Re: What were they thinking....

[Toonafish]

You can use F8 to switch to component mode, that way only the components 
of the active item will be selected.

- Ronald

>
> Instead of F9, right click change to select vertices, drag your mouse 
> all over the character, and you will be selecting it's bones and your 
> selection filter will be back to object mode. WTF!
>
> I have to uncheck joints in the filter on the top menu so they can't 
> be selected if I want to manipulate components.

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Re: What were they thinking....

[Martin Yara]

I've always hated the CTRL + Q (Quit) and the 8 (Paint Effect) so much that
it is the first thing I do when I'm customizing. Change 8 to Outliner and
disable Quit.

That and disable that thing pink selection thing (Affected Highlighting I
think it is).

About the Scripting Editor, I also hate that I have to select all the code
ctrl+A  before pressing ctrl+Enter or my code disappears.

What I hate the most is that the right click to change selection filter to
vertices, edges, polygons doesn't work in the same way than the F8, F9, etc
hotkeys, which are perfect.
The right click flick movement is so easy and fast to change, but why does
it work different ?

Ex:
- Having a character with bones:
Press F9 to change selection filter to vertices, drag your mouse all over
the character and select it's vertices.
Simple workflow.

Instead of F9, right click change to select vertices, drag your mouse all
over the character, and you will be selecting it's bones and your selection
filter will be back to object mode. WTF!

I have to uncheck joints in the filter on the top menu so they can't be
selected if I want to manipulate components.

And, when you use the right click flick thing and your mouse is over a
joint, you may end adding a joint somewhere. Although this may be may fault
for not being careful enough, I hate it.

I do like the G Repeat though, it is closer to my fingers than . (period)
so I changed that in my Softimage hotkeys too.

Martin


On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 8:25 PM, Andy Nicholas <a...@andynicholas.com>
wrote:

> > I still have yet to be presented a viable case where deleting all the
> code
> > in the script editor upon execute is a beneficial feature.
>
>
> Haha! Too true :) Nuke does the same. Annoying as hell.
>
> I do seem to remember hearing that it was a specific design decision to do
> it that way. Something to do with emulating some sort of console input.
>
> Pfft. Join the 21st century I say ;)
>
>
> > On 30 Aug 2017, at 09:44, Matt Lind <speye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I've bumped into a few myself:
> >
> > G - repeats last command.  Especially annoying if you accidentally press
> it
> > after importing a file as you cannot undo an import.
> >
> > A - resets the UI to animation layout, including rearranging all your
> > windows.  Considering "A" is used heavily for 'frame all' in the
> viewports,
> > whoever thought this was a good idea should be shot.  If you don't pay
> > attention to your mouse cursor location, your user experience will be
> > upendednot that you could ever measure the difference in
> productivity.
> >
> > I still have yet to be presented a viable case where deleting all the
> code
> > in the script editor upon execute is a beneficial feature.
> >
> >
> >
> > Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2017 09:22:16 + (UTC)
> > From: Anto Matkovic <a...@matkovic.com>
> > Subject: Re: What were they thinking
> > To: "Official Softimage Users Mailing List.
> >
> > I've also experienced 'ghost' hotkeys in some other cases. Here it
> happens
> > with certain modeling operators, let's say when M or R is pressed after
> > extruding, Maya tries to switch the worskpace to modeling or rigging,
> > something like that - for now I'm not completely sure about "procedure'',
> > which by the way leads to dismantled interface, not to certain workspace
> > suddenly requested by Maya (not me...). ?While I'm pretty sure I do not
> have
> > any hotkey related to workspaces. Thanks for posting this, at least I
> know
> > I'm not alone :).
> > Regarding constraints, IK and 'famous'' pairBlend node, somehow got
> > everything smoother by avoiding Maya constraints, IK and especially
> > pairBlend thing as much as possible, trying to replace them as much by
> > simple nodal setups, something like bunch of ''remap value'' nodes,
> driven
> > by position of locator, or even a part of 2 bone IK chain driven only by
> > node setup (still using orient constrain for global orientation of IK
> > chain) - but, yeah, this really is not a solution for quick setups.The
> way
> > how pairBlend is implemented, by deleting the node, once there is no
> > animated blend, makes it completely and definitively unusable for quick
> > setups.Also, only no scripted way to safely copy - paste a part of rig,
> > seems to be saving the copy of scene, deleting everything else, checking
> out
> > are all necessary nodes still in place (as deleting can take unwanted
> parts
> > of networks) - and finally, copying back into original scene. So, yeah,
> yet
> > another one, unusable for quick work.
> >
> >
> >
> > -

Re: What were they thinking....

[Andy Nicholas]

> I still have yet to be presented a viable case where deleting all the code 
> in the script editor upon execute is a beneficial feature.


Haha! Too true :) Nuke does the same. Annoying as hell.

I do seem to remember hearing that it was a specific design decision to do it 
that way. Something to do with emulating some sort of console input. 

Pfft. Join the 21st century I say ;)


> On 30 Aug 2017, at 09:44, Matt Lind <speye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I've bumped into a few myself:
> 
> G - repeats last command.  Especially annoying if you accidentally press it 
> after importing a file as you cannot undo an import.
> 
> A - resets the UI to animation layout, including rearranging all your 
> windows.  Considering "A" is used heavily for 'frame all' in the viewports, 
> whoever thought this was a good idea should be shot.  If you don't pay 
> attention to your mouse cursor location, your user experience will be 
> upendednot that you could ever measure the difference in productivity.
> 
> I still have yet to be presented a viable case where deleting all the code 
> in the script editor upon execute is a beneficial feature.
> 
> 
> 
> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2017 09:22:16 + (UTC)
> From: Anto Matkovic <a...@matkovic.com>
> Subject: Re: What were they thinking
> To: "Official Softimage Users Mailing List.
> 
> I've also experienced 'ghost' hotkeys in some other cases. Here it happens 
> with certain modeling operators, let's say when M or R is pressed after 
> extruding, Maya tries to switch the worskpace to modeling or rigging, 
> something like that - for now I'm not completely sure about "procedure'', 
> which by the way leads to dismantled interface, not to certain workspace 
> suddenly requested by Maya (not me...). ?While I'm pretty sure I do not have 
> any hotkey related to workspaces. Thanks for posting this, at least I know 
> I'm not alone :).
> Regarding constraints, IK and 'famous'' pairBlend node, somehow got 
> everything smoother by avoiding Maya constraints, IK and especially 
> pairBlend thing as much as possible, trying to replace them as much by 
> simple nodal setups, something like bunch of ''remap value'' nodes, driven 
> by position of locator, or even a part of 2 bone IK chain driven only by 
> node setup (still using orient constrain for global orientation of IK 
> chain) - but, yeah, this really is not a solution for quick setups.The way 
> how pairBlend is implemented, by deleting the node, once there is no 
> animated blend, makes it completely and definitively unusable for quick 
> setups.Also, only no scripted way to safely copy - paste a part of rig, 
> seems to be saving the copy of scene, deleting everything else, checking out 
> are all necessary nodes still in place (as deleting can take unwanted parts 
> of networks) - and finally, copying back into original scene. So, yeah, yet 
> another one, unusable for quick work.
> 
> 
> 
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> Softimage Mailing List.
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> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.


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Re: What were they thinking....

[Artur W]

Hypershade, something different. Refresh on a shader from the scene. Create
a node (whatever), Move shader of the center and then grab the new node.
What happens is annoying as hell.


Artur

2017-08-30 10:44 GMT+02:00 Matt Lind <speye...@hotmail.com>:

> I've bumped into a few myself:
>
> G - repeats last command.  Especially annoying if you accidentally press it
> after importing a file as you cannot undo an import.
>
> A - resets the UI to animation layout, including rearranging all your
> windows.  Considering "A" is used heavily for 'frame all' in the viewports,
> whoever thought this was a good idea should be shot.  If you don't pay
> attention to your mouse cursor location, your user experience will be
> upendednot that you could ever measure the difference in productivity.
>
> I still have yet to be presented a viable case where deleting all the code
> in the script editor upon execute is a beneficial feature.
>
>
>
> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2017 09:22:16 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Anto Matkovic <a...@matkovic.com>
> Subject: Re: What were they thinking
> To: "Official Softimage Users Mailing List.
>
> I've also experienced 'ghost' hotkeys in some other cases. Here it happens
> with certain modeling operators, let's say when M or R is pressed after
> extruding, Maya tries to switch the worskpace to modeling or rigging,
> something like that - for now I'm not completely sure about "procedure'',
> which by the way leads to dismantled interface, not to certain workspace
> suddenly requested by Maya (not me...). ?While I'm pretty sure I do not
> have
> any hotkey related to workspaces. Thanks for posting this, at least I know
> I'm not alone :).
> Regarding constraints, IK and 'famous'' pairBlend node, somehow got
> everything smoother by avoiding Maya constraints, IK and especially
> pairBlend thing as much as possible, trying to replace them as much by
> simple nodal setups, something like bunch of ''remap value'' nodes, driven
> by position of locator, or even a part of 2 bone IK chain driven only by
> node setup (still using orient constrain for global orientation of IK
> chain) - but, yeah, this really is not a solution for quick setups.The way
> how pairBlend is implemented, by deleting the node, once there is no
> animated blend, makes it completely and definitively unusable for quick
> setups.Also, only no scripted way to safely copy - paste a part of rig,
> seems to be saving the copy of scene, deleting everything else, checking
> out
> are all necessary nodes still in place (as deleting can take unwanted parts
> of networks) - and finally, copying back into original scene. So, yeah, yet
> another one, unusable for quick work.
>
>
>
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Re: What were they thinking....

[Matt Lind]

I've bumped into a few myself:

G - repeats last command.  Especially annoying if you accidentally press it 
after importing a file as you cannot undo an import.

A - resets the UI to animation layout, including rearranging all your 
windows.  Considering "A" is used heavily for 'frame all' in the viewports, 
whoever thought this was a good idea should be shot.  If you don't pay 
attention to your mouse cursor location, your user experience will be 
upendednot that you could ever measure the difference in productivity.

I still have yet to be presented a viable case where deleting all the code 
in the script editor upon execute is a beneficial feature.



Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2017 09:22:16 + (UTC)
From: Anto Matkovic <a...@matkovic.com>
Subject: Re: What were they thinking
To: "Official Softimage Users Mailing List.

I've also experienced 'ghost' hotkeys in some other cases. Here it happens 
with certain modeling operators, let's say when M or R is pressed after 
extruding, Maya tries to switch the worskpace to modeling or rigging, 
something like that - for now I'm not completely sure about "procedure'', 
which by the way leads to dismantled interface, not to certain workspace 
suddenly requested by Maya (not me...). ?While I'm pretty sure I do not have 
any hotkey related to workspaces. Thanks for posting this, at least I know 
I'm not alone :).
Regarding constraints, IK and 'famous'' pairBlend node, somehow got 
everything smoother by avoiding Maya constraints, IK and especially 
pairBlend thing as much as possible, trying to replace them as much by 
simple nodal setups, something like bunch of ''remap value'' nodes, driven 
by position of locator, or even a part of 2 bone IK chain driven only by 
node setup (still using orient constrain for global orientation of IK 
chain) - but, yeah, this really is not a solution for quick setups.The way 
how pairBlend is implemented, by deleting the node, once there is no 
animated blend, makes it completely and definitively unusable for quick 
setups.Also, only no scripted way to safely copy - paste a part of rig, 
seems to be saving the copy of scene, deleting everything else, checking out 
are all necessary nodes still in place (as deleting can take unwanted parts 
of networks) - and finally, copying back into original scene. So, yeah, yet 
another one, unusable for quick work.
 


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Re: What were they thinking....

[Jason S]

c in 
your abstraction layer to account for that.  Then you start testing again 
applying a point constraint, then a parent constraint, then another type of 
constraint which also competes for the position attributeonly to 
discover Maya now removes the pairBlend node and rearranges the constraints 
into an entirely different arrangement you cannot predict.  This is why Maya 
will always suck.  Probably also explains why a lot of the C++ sample code I 
see wraps MEL commands instead of digging into the dependency graph.

I haven't followed Maya development, but from a distance it appears they're 
focusing on revamping the underlying core right now and will worry about the 
UI later.  However, given the idiosyncratic framework, I honestly don't see 
a slick and user friendly UI (a la Softimage forthcoming) at any point in 
time.  The way Maya is (currently) built won't allow it.

In short, they weren't thinking.

Matt



Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2017 09:41:26 -0700
From: Meng-Yang Lu <ntmon...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: What were they thinking
To: "Official Softimage Users Mailing List.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list"

The copy and paste is pretty bad.  Haven't done it in years because of the
PTSD, but I remembered it would put "__pasted__" on the names of the
objects that were pasted over, assuming you wanted to do that in the first
place.

It's not a finely-tuned generalist tool like Softimage is out of the box.
And before, you could forgive it's shortcomings because in the Motif UI
days, it was ugly, but stupid fast.  Hotbox, plus marking menus, plus
hotkeys made you fast.  Now the UI lag pretty much sapped the joy from
those UI features.

Maya has had a tough time adapting to the times.  I see other developers
more in-tuned with the day to day tasks of production and developing tools
that help artists get through their day.  Not sure why ADSK can't move the
needle in a meaningful way when it comes to Maya releases.  I feel like
they should go and buy new computers, install maya out of the box, and try
to put together a 3 min short film.  The pitfalls would be pretty obvious
imo.

peace,

-Lu 


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Re: What were they thinking....

[Jason S]

rrangement you cannot predict.  This is why Maya 
will always suck.  Probably also explains why a lot of the C++ sample code I 
see wraps MEL commands instead of digging into the dependency graph.

I haven't followed Maya development, but from a distance it appears they're 
focusing on revamping the underlying core right now and will worry about the 
UI later.  However, given the idiosyncratic framework, I honestly don't see 
a slick and user friendly UI (a la Softimage forthcoming) at any point in 
time.  The way Maya is (currently) built won't allow it.

In short, they weren't thinking.

Matt



Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2017 09:41:26 -0700
From: Meng-Yang Lu <ntmon...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: What were they thinking
To: "Official Softimage Users Mailing List.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list"

The copy and paste is pretty bad.  Haven't done it in years because of the
PTSD, but I remembered it would put "__pasted__" on the names of the
objects that were pasted over, assuming you wanted to do that in the first
place.

It's not a finely-tuned generalist tool like Softimage is out of the box.
And before, you could forgive it's shortcomings because in the Motif UI
days, it was ugly, but stupid fast.  Hotbox, plus marking menus, plus
hotkeys made you fast.  Now the UI lag pretty much sapped the joy from
those UI features.

Maya has had a tough time adapting to the times.  I see other developers
more in-tuned with the day to day tasks of production and developing tools
that help artists get through their day.  Not sure why ADSK can't move the
needle in a meaningful way when it comes to Maya releases.  I feel like
they should go and buy new computers, install maya out of the box, and try
to put together a 3 min short film.  The pitfalls would be pretty obvious
imo.

peace,

-Lu 


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Re: What were they thinking....

[Jason S]

o explains why a lot of the C++ sample code I 
see wraps MEL commands instead of digging into the dependency graph.

I haven't followed Maya development, but from a distance it appears they're 
focusing on revamping the underlying core right now and will worry about the 
UI later.  However, given the idiosyncratic framework, I honestly don't see 
a slick and user friendly UI (a la Softimage forthcoming) at any point in 
time.  The way Maya is (currently) built won't allow it.

In short, they weren't thinking.

Matt



Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2017 09:41:26 -0700
From: Meng-Yang Lu <ntmon...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: What were they thinking
To: "Official Softimage Users Mailing List.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list"

The copy and paste is pretty bad.  Haven't done it in years because of the
PTSD, but I remembered it would put "__pasted__" on the names of the
objects that were pasted over, assuming you wanted to do that in the first
place.

It's not a finely-tuned generalist tool like Softimage is out of the box.
And before, you could forgive it's shortcomings because in the Motif UI
days, it was ugly, but stupid fast.  Hotbox, plus marking menus, plus
hotkeys made you fast.  Now the UI lag pretty much sapped the joy from
those UI features.

Maya has had a tough time adapting to the times.  I see other developers
more in-tuned with the day to day tasks of production and developing tools
that help artists get through their day.  Not sure why ADSK can't move the
needle in a meaningful way when it comes to Maya releases.  I feel like
they should go and buy new computers, install maya out of the box, and try
to put together a 3 min short film.  The pitfalls would be pretty obvious
imo.

peace,

-Lu 


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Re: What were they thinking....

[Matt Lind]

The Maya SDK is no better.

Excruciating teeth-pulling experience to do really basic things as concepts 
are not explained, or explained well.  Every node is purpose-built and has 
it's own secret handshakes to use making it difficult to write generalized 
and reusable code to perform common tasks.  Using the SDK basically involves 
studying the graph as seen in the node editor, dissecting how it was built, 
then repeating it in your code...only to find out even if you replicate the 
exact same setup it doesn't behave the same.  There are additional hidden 
tricks you must know to get those last pieces to drop into place.  You can 
very easily fall into the trap of attempting to write your own abstraction 
layer just to make the pieces less cumbersome to use, but just when you 
think you've wrapped everything nicely, Maya throws you one of it's endless 
supply of idiosyncratic surprises.

Example:  constraints

In softimage, each constraint is a separate operator that lives in an 
object's construction history.  Every time you add a constraint, it is added 
to the construction history in the order which it was applied.  A lot more 
may be going on under the hood, but to the end user it's very straight 
forward.

In Maya, if you attempt to add more than one of the same type of constraint 
to an object (e.g. two point constraints), instead of making two distinct 
constraint operator nodes like in Softimage, Maya consolidates them into a 
single constraint node with multiple inputs blended internally - but you 
have to supply your own blendweight slider to do that (they don't mention 
that in the SDK docs).  Since each constraint type has slightly different 
inputs and outputs, you write your own abstraction layer to handle the 
differences, only to discover that if two different types of constraints 
affecting the same attribute of an object are applied (e.g. point and parent 
constraint competing for the 'position' attribute), Maya throws the curve 
ball of inserting a 'pairBlend' node, which is like mix2colors node, but for 
transforms instead of colors.  Great.  Now you must revise your logic in 
your abstraction layer to account for that.  Then you start testing again 
applying a point constraint, then a parent constraint, then another type of 
constraint which also competes for the position attributeonly to 
discover Maya now removes the pairBlend node and rearranges the constraints 
into an entirely different arrangement you cannot predict.  This is why Maya 
will always suck.  Probably also explains why a lot of the C++ sample code I 
see wraps MEL commands instead of digging into the dependency graph.

I haven't followed Maya development, but from a distance it appears they're 
focusing on revamping the underlying core right now and will worry about the 
UI later.  However, given the idiosyncratic framework, I honestly don't see 
a slick and user friendly UI (a la Softimage forthcoming) at any point in 
time.  The way Maya is (currently) built won't allow it.

In short, they weren't thinking.

Matt



Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2017 09:41:26 -0700
From: Meng-Yang Lu <ntmon...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: What were they thinking
To: "Official Softimage Users Mailing List.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list;

The copy and paste is pretty bad.  Haven't done it in years because of the
PTSD, but I remembered it would put "__pasted__" on the names of the
objects that were pasted over, assuming you wanted to do that in the first
place.

It's not a finely-tuned generalist tool like Softimage is out of the box.
And before, you could forgive it's shortcomings because in the Motif UI
days, it was ugly, but stupid fast.  Hotbox, plus marking menus, plus
hotkeys made you fast.  Now the UI lag pretty much sapped the joy from
those UI features.

Maya has had a tough time adapting to the times.  I see other developers
more in-tuned with the day to day tasks of production and developing tools
that help artists get through their day.  Not sure why ADSK can't move the
needle in a meaningful way when it comes to Maya releases.  I feel like
they should go and buy new computers, install maya out of the box, and try
to put together a 3 min short film.  The pitfalls would be pretty obvious
imo.

peace,

-Lu 


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Re: What were they thinking....

[Meng-Yang Lu]

The copy and paste is pretty bad.  Haven't done it in years because of the
PTSD, but I remembered it would put "__pasted__" on the names of the
objects that were pasted over, assuming you wanted to do that in the first
place.

It's not a finely-tuned generalist tool like Softimage is out of the box.
And before, you could forgive it's shortcomings because in the Motif UI
days, it was ugly, but stupid fast.  Hotbox, plus marking menus, plus
hotkeys made you fast.  Now the UI lag pretty much sapped the joy from
those UI features.

Maya has had a tough time adapting to the times.  I see other developers
more in-tuned with the day to day tasks of production and developing tools
that help artists get through their day.  Not sure why ADSK can't move the
needle in a meaningful way when it comes to Maya releases.  I feel like
they should go and buy new computers, install maya out of the box, and try
to put together a 3 min short film.  The pitfalls would be pretty obvious
imo.

peace,

-Lu
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"unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.

RE: What were they thinking....

[Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]]

The Z hotkey has apparently been around since 2014 or earlier. But it is at 
least something I can remove.

The Ctrl-V hotkey is new, apparently introduced about Maya 2016 or so. This one 
is apparently hard-coded into the application somewhere. There are four 
contexts for this hotkey in Edit(Common), Time Editor, Node Editor, and UV 
Editor. Nothing is listed for the Outliner. I apparently can't turn this off 
without breaking normal copy/paste functionality it would seem. 

There is absolutely no excuse or justification for this kind of sloppiness in 
interface design. You want there to be impediments to this kind of action in 
order to insure that it's a proper action to take. Copy a scene unto itself? 
Really? In who's world is that a common or frequently required need?

It's just so ironic, Maya desperately needs streamlining of this type at the 
interface level, but only if it is useful. This is not useful, nor is it 
logical, or desirable. I've been waiting 20 years for Maya developers to make 
standard hotkeys for Outliner, Graph Editor, Hypergraph(Multilister before 
that), Attribute Editor, and Render View. Stuff that gets opened and used a 
lot! But there are hotkeys for such obscure things as Lock Curve Length?  

If you are a Softimage person new to Maya, and you are wondering why everybody 
seems to have peculiar or nonstandard workflows while in it, this is why. I'm 
about to trash the standard hotkeys for nth time in 20 years. 
First removed hotkey: Z
First new hotkey: Outliner = 8

Incidentally, I'm still waiting for Maya to delete the 4+ duplicate 
geometry objects from my scene. If it completes successfully I might be able to 
recover the scene... next week.

Joey


-Original Message-
From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com 
[mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Morten Bartholdy
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 4:46 AM
To: Official Softimage Users Mailing List. 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/xsi_list 
<softimage@listproc.autodesk.com>
Subject: Re: What were they thinking

What gems you found there.

The lack of logical thinking behind the Maya UI and tool design is appalling - 
I am greying rapidly these days.

Morten


> Den 24. august 2017 klokken 23:50 skrev "Ponthieux, Joseph G. 
> (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]" <j.ponthi...@nasa.gov>:
> 
> 
> Having been requested to do a project that would be best suited to do in Maya 
> because of some of the features Maya provides by default, namely fluids, I 
> have been using Maya several weeks for the first time in a really long while.
> 
> I thought I would share, especially from a Softimage perspective, apparently 
> Maya has some hidden hotkeys and some hidden commands associated to existing 
> hotkeys that did not exist in the past.
> 
> 
> 1.   Z key executes Undo.
> 
> a.   Its supposed to be Ctrl-Z, not Z, but apparently Z by itself does 
> the same thing
> 
> b.  As a former Softimage user, prone to hitting the Z key very often, 
> I've been hitting this key a lot this week.
> 
> c.   This command is documented, at least its searchable in the hot key 
> editor.
> 
> d.  The command is redundant and inconsistent and makes it to easy to 
> undo something.
> 
> e.  It has the potential to bite you by undoing your work without your 
> knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> 2.   Ctrl-V executes a scene read, of the currently saved scene into the 
> existing scene
> 
> a.   This happens if you are in the outliner
> 
> b.  Its basically the equivalent of import scene
> 
> c.   It uses the current scene name as the import
> 
> d.  If the scene is previously saved it will add a copy of the scene into 
> the existing scene
> 
> e.  I was in outliner, renaming groups for a massively large scene, in 
> excess of 4 objects, I forgot to double click an item in the outliner to 
> initiate the rename of the object name, now it is reading another 40,000+ 
> objects into my scene. It will be tomorrow before I can salvage it, if at 
> all...
> 
> f.This command is undocumented, the hot key editor provides no 
> context for this behavior related to the outliner.
> 
> 
> 
> 3.   This occurs in Maya 2017. I am sure there are other insanities like 
> this lurking. Be warned
> 
> 
> Joey
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Re: What were they thinking....

[Morten Bartholdy]

What gems you found there.

The lack of logical thinking behind the Maya UI and tool design is appalling - 
I am greying rapidly these days.

Morten


> Den 24. august 2017 klokken 23:50 skrev "Ponthieux, Joseph G. 
> (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]" :
> 
> 
> Having been requested to do a project that would be best suited to do in Maya 
> because of some of the features Maya provides by default, namely fluids, I 
> have been using Maya several weeks for the first time in a really long while.
> 
> I thought I would share, especially from a Softimage perspective, apparently 
> Maya has some hidden hotkeys and some hidden commands associated to existing 
> hotkeys that did not exist in the past.
> 
> 
> 1.   Z key executes Undo.
> 
> a.   Its supposed to be Ctrl-Z, not Z, but apparently Z by itself does 
> the same thing
> 
> b.  As a former Softimage user, prone to hitting the Z key very often, 
> I've been hitting this key a lot this week.
> 
> c.   This command is documented, at least its searchable in the hot key 
> editor.
> 
> d.  The command is redundant and inconsistent and makes it to easy to 
> undo something.
> 
> e.  It has the potential to bite you by undoing your work without your 
> knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> 2.   Ctrl-V executes a scene read, of the currently saved scene into the 
> existing scene
> 
> a.   This happens if you are in the outliner
> 
> b.  Its basically the equivalent of import scene
> 
> c.   It uses the current scene name as the import
> 
> d.  If the scene is previously saved it will add a copy of the scene into 
> the existing scene
> 
> e.  I was in outliner, renaming groups for a massively large scene, in 
> excess of 4 objects, I forgot to double click an item in the outliner to 
> initiate the rename of the object name, now it is reading another 40,000+ 
> objects into my scene. It will be tomorrow before I can salvage it, if at 
> all...
> 
> f.This command is undocumented, the hot key editor provides no 
> context for this behavior related to the outliner.
> 
> 
> 
> 3.   This occurs in Maya 2017. I am sure there are other insanities like 
> this lurking. Be warned
> 
> 
> Joey
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What were they thinking....

[Ponthieux, Joseph G. (LARC-E1A)[LITES II]]

Having been requested to do a project that would be best suited to do in Maya 
because of some of the features Maya provides by default, namely fluids, I have 
been using Maya several weeks for the first time in a really long while.

I thought I would share, especially from a Softimage perspective, apparently 
Maya has some hidden hotkeys and some hidden commands associated to existing 
hotkeys that did not exist in the past.


1.   Z key executes Undo.

a.   Its supposed to be Ctrl-Z, not Z, but apparently Z by itself does the 
same thing

b.  As a former Softimage user, prone to hitting the Z key very often, I've 
been hitting this key a lot this week.

c.   This command is documented, at least its searchable in the hot key 
editor.

d.  The command is redundant and inconsistent and makes it to easy to undo 
something.

e.  It has the potential to bite you by undoing your work without your 
knowledge.



2.   Ctrl-V executes a scene read, of the currently saved scene into the 
existing scene

a.   This happens if you are in the outliner

b.  Its basically the equivalent of import scene

c.   It uses the current scene name as the import

d.  If the scene is previously saved it will add a copy of the scene into 
the existing scene

e.  I was in outliner, renaming groups for a massively large scene, in 
excess of 4 objects, I forgot to double click an item in the outliner to 
initiate the rename of the object name, now it is reading another 40,000+ 
objects into my scene. It will be tomorrow before I can salvage it, if at all...

f.This command is undocumented, the hot key editor provides no context 
for this behavior related to the outliner.



3.   This occurs in Maya 2017. I am sure there are other insanities like 
this lurking. Be warned


Joey
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