Re: [Sursound] Oktava A-format microphone?

[Albert Leusink]

Jörn Nettingsmeier  writes:
> 
> if you're shopping in the medium term, add this one to your shortlist 
> once it's out:
> http://en-de.sennheiser.com/vrmic-creatorsprogram
> a little gnome whispered in my ear that it's quite nice. no news on 
> final price and release date yet, but hey...
> 

I'm very happy with how my Tetramic sounds, but don't particularly care for
the whole PPAC situation with all the little wires and connectors as well as
the fact that I cannot use any standard sized wind protection...

The Sennheiser definitely caught my attention as well, but I needed
something sooner than later. Hopefully we'll hear some examples of it in the
short term.



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Re: [Sursound] Oktava A-format microphone?

[Albert Leusink]

Actually...after re-reading, it does not come with capsules, so add at least
another $400 on top of that...:-(
But you do get the choice between many polar patterns, that can be
interchanged, interesting...

http://www.oktava-shop.com/MK-012-100-Series-modular-system/Capsules/


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Re: [Sursound] Oktava A-format microphone?

[Albert Leusink]

Sorry, I should have done a search firstit has been mentioned here
before, about 3 years ago, but no info about how it actually sounds..


http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.audio.sursound/4850

My bad,

Albert




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Re: [Sursound] Tetra and Go Pro

[Albert Leusink]

Barry G Butler  writes:

> 
> 
> I'm asked by a camera person to record air puns sound for his VR  shots  
 He has a GoPro 6 unit surround unit 
> If I buy the Core Tetra, how do I sync the two and put the end result to a
medium ??
> Thanks 
> B Graham Butler 
> www.speakeasy-digital.com
> 

> 

Hi Barry,


Here's a Facebook group that has a lot of info about what you are asking,
and many location sound recordists are participating and sharing their best
practices.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/positional.audio.in.vr/

Best of luck,

Albert



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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Albert Leusink]

> > Stefan
> 
> Happy to have mine used (with usual academic courtesies ...).
> (It's on ambisonia, or I can send.
> Am working on a HOA version ...)
> 
> Michael
> 

> 




Hello Michael,

That would be wonderful to have a HOA version of this. I had searched on
your website for the tool to make it myself, but the page doesn't load
http://mchapman.com/amb/soft/positions/

Regards,

Albert




> > Stefan
> 
> Happy to have mine used (with usual academic courtesies ...).
> (It's on ambisonia, or I can send.
> Am working on a HOA version ...)
> 
> Michael
> 

> 




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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Albert Leusink]

Politis Archontis  writes:

> 
> Hi Albert,
> 
> This is interesting!
> I don’t have an android and I cannot test it unfortunately. I would like
to ask what are you doing with the
> B-format? decode it to headphones dynamically?
> 
> Archontis
> 

Hi Archontis,

For now, the YouTube app handles the rotation and binaural decoding
dynamically using a generic HRTF (not sure which one). 

I didn't own an Android myself either, but bought one just for these
reasons. Hopefully Apple will follow suit soon and starts supporting it on
their devices. Word is that they are much more difficult to deal with in
terms of developing for them, which is unfortunate, as they used to be the
innovators, but are acting more like IBM lately.

Albert


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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Albert Leusink]

Marc Lavallee <marc@...> writes:

> 
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2016 18:09:40 +0200
> David Pickett <dmp@...> wrote:
> 
> > At 17:29 20-04-16, Albert Leusink wrote:
> > 
> >  >YouTube is now supporting ACN/SN3D FOA attached to a .mov video
> >  >container as uncompressed PCM audio.  
> > 
> > I am sure I should know, but if this is a multitrack thing, what do 
> > the channels each contain?  B format or what?
> > 
> 
> I wonder why using uncompressed PCM instead of compressed AAC...
> --
> Marc
> 

Hi Marc,

Apparently there are some issues with AAC decoding and certain Android
phones. You could upload it to the YouTube player and it will work fine on
that end, but certain mobile devices cannot handle it properly, so for now
they are trying to prevent those issues.

Albert


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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Albert Leusink]

David Pickett  writes:

> 
> At 18:39 20-04-16, Politis Archontis wrote:
> 
>  >Hi David,
>  >
>  >if you are asking if the ACN/SN3D FOA is the same as the B-format,
>  >yes, first-order is the B-format anyway you look at it.
>  >The B-format in ACN/SN3D convention is the same as in the traditional
>  >definition without the W scaling and in the ACN order:
>  >
>  >B_ACN_SN3D = [sqrt(2)*W Y Z X].
>  >
> 
> Thanks!  So what client do I need to play such a video on my computer 
> and output 4.0 or whatever through my soundcard, please?  Does the 
> browser take care of the matrixing?  Can I change the values of the 
> parameters?  Is there likely to be shelf filtering available in the 
> browser or the player?
> 
> David
> 

Right now, the rotational feature is only supported on Android phones using
the YouTube app (unfortunately), not through the browser. The binaural
decoding is built into the app, using a generic HRTF, not sure about the
exact technical specs. I'm sure it's pretty bare bones currently, but
ideally in the future we would have Harpex style decoding.


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Re: [Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Albert Leusink]

David Pickett <dmp@...> writes:

> 
> At 17:29 20-04-16, Albert Leusink wrote:
> 
>  >YouTube is now supporting ACN/SN3D FOA attached to a .mov video container as
>  >uncompressed PCM audio.
> 
> I am sure I should know, but if this is a multitrack thing, what do 
> the channels each contain?  B format or what?
> 
> David
> 

Hi David,

We recorded this the regular way, multitrack using mono and stereo channels
and then we panned these channels into the 3rd order Ambisonic soundfield
using VST plugins (BlueRippleSound in my case), then you output the
16channel 3rd order FuMa mixdown file, convert it to ACN/SN3D (with another
Blue Ripple plugin), disregard the last 12 channels (which we'll keep for
when MPEG-H ever rolls around) and those first 4 channels are your B-format,
ACN/SN3D compatible.


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[Sursound] YouTube now supports Ambisonics (warning....part advertisement..)

[Albert Leusink]

Hello all,

Some welcome news,

YouTube is now supporting ACN/SN3D FOA attached to a .mov video container as
uncompressed PCM audio. 

This is great, as most of the world gets a lot of their content through
YouTube and now they'll all get to experience the power of Ambisonics!.

For now, it only works on Android, using the YouTube app, but hopefully soon
more platforms will be supported, if we create enough good content in this
format.

To contribute to that end, we've started our own channel, 360 Performances,
featuring music and performing arts in 360º video and recorded/mixed in
Ambisonics:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6_696Vph-306CVsenXvbvQ

Hopefully this will turn into something viable, and we can continue doing
this for more artists and keep releasing new content in this manner.

As nowadays it's more about the number of subscribers/likes/views than the
quality of the content, please do subscribe to the channel if you like this
(and even if you don't like it, you can still subscribe...:-)

Regards,

Albert

(PS I don't work for YouTube)
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Re: [Sursound] Ambisonics for Android and also Oculus..

[Albert Leusink]

Thank you all,

It's an honor to have access to so much great knowledge, from the comfort of
one's home...

I'm sure many of you have believed in Ambisonics for a long time and are
excited (or maybe dissapointed..) that it's finally getting its' well
deserved turn in the spotlight.

Let's hope that the format issues will be settled sooner than later.
We will definitely need some more tools (plugins, converters etc.) for the
ACN format, so whomever the shoe fits...

Two more issues:

1. Does it make any difference in what order (1st or 3rd or higher...) you
convert from FuMa to ACN/SN3D ?


2. I noticed an increase in overall gain of about 4.5dB going from Fuma to
ACN/SN3D, both in 1st order and 3r order conversion. Is this to be expected
or is this plugin-related (Ambix VST converter 0.2.5) ?


Regards,

Albert






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[Sursound] Ambisonics for Android and also Oculus..

[Albert Leusink]

Hello all,

Coming soon, to a phone near you !:

https://storage.googleapis.com/jump-inspector/Jump_Inspector_Quick_Start.pdf

There will definitely be many user complaints initially due to
misunderstandings as it uses ACN/SN3D ordering and 99% of all the tools (VST
plugins etc..) currently used by the VR community are FuMa / .AMB based...

To add to that confusion, Oculus has just updated their Gear VR video player
specs to accept FuMa first order

I'm sure you have all had this discussion many times over, but what, if any,
are the advantages of 1st order ACN over FuMa?

>From what I've gathered, ACN was initially proposed as it would allow bigger
file sizes but I don't think that really applies to mobile phones in this
case...doesn't it only make sense to have ACN beyond 3rd order?



Have a good weekend,


Albert





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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Albert Leusink]

Jörn Nettingsmeier  writes:


> 
> are you talking about a head-tracked VR movie?

Yes.

> 
> i don't see why you would want to do that. the effect will be quite 
> strange... why would any part of the sound mix stay constant wrt head 
> position?
> the effect would be a bit like rotating the music bed in the cinema 
> every time the camera pans - funny, but certainly irritating.

It would be for off-camera audio (voice over, music etc.) that don't have
any relation to the camera position/rotation.

Imagine a video with an on-camera actor (dialog), a voice over and a music
track. You would want the on-camera dialog to match the video position (so
counter-rotate) , but the VO and music track will not rotate.

> 
> if you absolutely have to do it, the only way is to deliver two streams, 
> one head-tracked and counter-rotated, the other not. which means you'd 
> have to have control over the listener's player software.

That's what I was afraid of...so I would need 6 channels instead of 4.


> 
> the only way to get two rotationally invariant signals into the stream 
> is a cardioid pointing up and another one pointing down. if your player 
> ignores head tilt, the result is like summing to mono and mixing into W. 
> if it supports head tilt, the result is likely even worse :-

Would that be the same as rotating the encoded stereo stream (set to 0º
spread)  by 90º vertically? 

> 

Thank you!
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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Albert Leusink]

Thanks for all your insights, I'll try to be a bit more specific.

The delivery format is a 4 channel WXYZ .wav file that will be rotated and
decoded to binaural in realtime in the video player according to the
viewer's head rotation.

So, there is no panning involved, just static sources, that counter rotate
according to the head rotation (so it appears their location is fixed in the
spherical soundfield)

What I want to have also in this soundfield is a stereo source that moves
with the head rotation (just like regular stereo listening on headphones),
that gets somehow mixed in with the 4 channel wxyz file.


By M/S encoding the stereo audio (sending the mid to the W channel and the
side to the Y channel), it sums to mono at 90 and 270º. The same happens
with regular stereo to FOA encoding.

If I send the side channel both to X and Y, it sums to mono at 45º and
225º.(a 45º shift).


Is there a solution that does not sum to mono? Double M/S?

Regards,

Albert
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[Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Albert Leusink]

Hello,

Is it possible to have a non-rotating stereo source in the ambisonic
soundfield, while all the other sources rotate?

Let's say I have a stereo music bed in a spherical video that needs to stay
in position, while the other elements (dialog, sfx etc.) respond to rotation.

It works for mono (by sending it to just the W channel), but how about
stereo, maybe some kind of double M/S that counters the rotation ?

Pardon my ignorance beforehand if this is the equivalent of fitting a square
peg into a round hole...

Thanks !

Albert

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Re: [Sursound] 3D7.1 speaker setup

[Albert Leusink]

Maybe this got stuck in the haystack, but still would love to know if there
are any opinions? Thanks !





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[Sursound] 3D7.1 speaker setup

[Albert Leusink]

Hello all,

Now that I’m getting a bit claustrophobic from the constant headphone use
when mixing 3rd order Ambisonics, it would be nice to have a speaker-based
solution that would give my ear lobes some relief, but doesn't break the bank..


Does anyone have any experiences with the 3D7.1 setup described here?:

http://www.codemasters.com/research/3D_sound_for_3D_games.pdf


Would this be adequate as an entry point for 3rd order listening, or is
there a better solution (which uses about the same amount of speakers…) ?


Any budget speaker recommendations? 

I’m looking at the JBL LSR 300 series powered monitors as a good candidate,
as they can be had for around $150 each and have good reviews.

Is 1 sub enough, or is it better to have 2 (these speakers roll-of very
quickly below 75Hz)
 
Their dispersion is sort of wide though, is this a benefit, to fill in the
"holes" due the small number of speakers used, or a negative in terms of
phase cancellation problems?

Thanks !

Albert
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Re: [Sursound] YouTube adds ambisonics support

[Albert Leusink]

That's great news!, was hoping for this big time.

I hopped over to the github page, but it's all Greek to me as
a code-illiterate...thankfully many of you are much smarter than I am..

Not sure if this is in the very early stages, so there are no answers yet,
but if possible can somebody explain in layman's terms what this actually
means in practice?:

- Will this support rotation of the soundfield according to the video
position in all 3 axis?

- How about zoom? (zooming in to the video would focus the soundfield to
that area)

- Will there be support for HOA? If so, which file format would we use?

- Is there going to be a decoder built into the Youtube interface that let's
us select preferred HRTF and output format such as binaural and maybe even
common speaker layouts (stereo, 5.1, 7.1 etc.)?

If you need any alpha/beta testers, count me in!

Best wishes,


Albert

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Re: [Sursound] HRTF optimization by using tones/noise?

[Albert Leusink]

Great insights, thank you all, best wishes for the new year!

Brian, I read your article, nice work!. Would you be willing to share which 
were the 7 HRTF's from the LISTEN
database that were considered the optimized subset? I only know them by number 
(1003 etc..), not by letters as
you have them in the article..

Best,

Albert

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Re: [Sursound] HRTF optimization by using tones/noise?

[Albert Leusink]

Thank you Len,

That does look interesting.

 I wonder how they are trying to accomplish their supposed instant calibration. 
Couldn't find any details on their site.

But in the case that one does not have access to their products,
It'd still be interested in hearing opinions about the workability of my
tones and noise idea...

Regards,

Albert. 

> On Dec 29, 2015, at 1:18 PM, len moskowitz <lenmoskow...@optonline.net> wrote:
> 
> Albert Leusink wrote:
> 
> 
>> ... but what other solutions do we currently have to give binaural listeners 
>> the best possible outcome apart from getting themselves measured or them 
>> going through a whole list of HRTF?s ?
> 
> 
> These folks may have the right idea:
> 
> 
> http://www.ossic.com/3d-audio
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Len Moskowitz (mosko...@core-sound.com)
> Core Sound LLC
> www.core-sound.com
> Home of TetraMic
> 
> 
> 
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[Sursound] HRTF optimization by using tones/noise?

[Albert Leusink]

Good evening,

It’s been very informative reading this list and learning from all of you 
experts.

I’m an experienced audio engineer that suddenly discovered Ambisonics due to 
the whole VR 360 explosion.

(Although I have made some recordings with a Calrec MK4 in the mid nineties; we 
would just mix
them down to stereo, not knowing what to do with these “B-format” outputs, 
thinking that they
were used by the “B”BC only…shameful, I now realize…we were young….:-)

As I’m very new in this, so many questions - that even after reading this list 
thoroughly and other resources - remain unanswered and hopefully some of you 
can take the time to answer them. I’ll try to put them in separate threads so 
we can tackle the issues one by one, unless you prefer otherwise, let me know.

Question 1:

I’m understanding that a big variable re. localization in ambi to binaural 
decoding is picking the right HRTF.

Now, is there a method whereby we could use test tones or pink/white noise to 
approximate the subject's HRTF and then use the closest measured HRTF from i.e. 
the IRCAM or CIPIC database? 

For example let’s say we use 100Hz, 1K, and 10K and the listener has to press a 
button on his device when he hears each tone exactly in the middle or exactly 
at -180 or otherwise. Or using regular and phase reversed tones and subject has 
to
calibrate when they are the loudest or softest?

Is this a ridiculous idea or does it have some standing? Would it be very CPU 
intensive or just a matter of supplying a spreadsheet with the IRCAM/CIPIC 
measurements and comparing the subject’s answers to that?

Surely, it’s far from perfect, but what other solutions do we currently have to 
give binaural listeners the best possible outcome apart from getting themselves 
measured or them going through a whole list of HRTF’s ?

Thanks !

Albert






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[Sursound] WTB - Soundfield SPS422 microphone

[Albert Leusink]

Good evening,

Learned a lot from this list by lurking and reading, thanks for all your great 
knowledge; so now it’s time to delve into ambisonics myself.
Therefore I’m looking to purchase a used but good condition SPS422(B), so if 
anyone has one for sale or any leads, feel free
to contact me. 

Many thanks,

Albert Leusink
New York, NY, USA
(917) 566 5125
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