Re: [biofuel] USDA finds ethanol's positive net energy balance has increased by 33%
In a message dated 6/16/04 8:24:40 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bio-Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- posted by [EMAIL PROTECTED] USDA finds ethanol's positive net energy balance has increased by 33% The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) now says ethanol from corn production yields a whopping 67% more energy than it takes to produce, up from 34% in its previously updated study on the subject. USDA Economist Hosein Shapouri presented the agency's latest findings at a corn conference in Indiana... Read More: http://www.soyatech.com/bluebook/news/viewarticle.ldml?a=20040616-5 Show me the numbers - don't just make a claim. I did a graduate school analysis around the economics of making ethanol from potatoes. It did not have a positive cost/energy balance even if we got the pototoes for free. Show me the numbers. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re-Cycling and Biofuels
The choice of paper feedstocks for biogas production does not lead toward high volumes of biogas production. The solubility of wood fiber used in paper is much lower than fresh feedstocks like grass, foodwaste, oily seed stocks, etc. As a result, the low amount of digestible cellulose in the biogas water solution is very low and you are required to handle, filter, heat, pump, etc much larger quantities of liquids to obtain the same amount of biogas. This drives the already limited economics of the process even lower. A good use for phone books is to convert them into home insulation. During the 70's and 80's, I ran my own cellulose insulation manufacturing plant that processed approximately 5000 tons per year of phone books into cellulose insulation for use in the home construction industry. This material will continue to conserve significant amounts of fossil fuels for the duration of its' existence. My emotional commitment to the insulation industry was based on the fact that it is cheaper to conserve energy than it is to make new energy so that is where I wanted to be to make my contribution. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Phil To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: Norm Edwards Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 4:20 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re-Cycling and Biofuels regarding: http://www.pureenergysystems.com/news/2004/05/17/off-grid_college/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Stuart, Thank you very much for your observations, Stuart. While we are considering the gasification units, I am concerned that we do not have a cheap or free source of consistent fuel for these units. Telephone books have been suggested, but I believe there are still issues to be worked out. (See note below.) The digester seems like a much quieter and less prone to problems approach that will work with a variety of materials--including kitchen refuse, grass clippings and rotted hay that farmers don't want. Methane can be safely piped and used with off-the shelf natural gas appliances. Two questions: 1.) How do digester systems work in the winter? Can they be placed below ground? Or do they make enough heat that they can be placed above ground and just insulated in the winter? 2.) How does one separate the CO2 and CH4 if one does NOT have hard water? I assume that a source of flowing water would normally by used to bubble the gasses through, but if the water is soft to begin with can it be used effectively? Are there other methods? Thank you very much -- Norman Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] Snail: PO Box 107; Perry, Michigan 48872; USA Tel: 517-625-7480 Fax: 517-625-7481Using Telephone books for fuel. There is probably enough energy in a telephone book to make it worth moving a truckload of them to Port Austin to use for energy. The question is: what is the cost of collecting telephone books in large quantities? Collecting them in recycling centers would probably be cheapest way. The problem is that each family only has a few telephone books--not like newspapers, bottles and cans which they accumulate daily. 1. What percentage of people and businesses would actually bring their phone books to a recycling center? 2. It is not economical for people to individually mail/ship their used phone books to a recycling center. At the best rates, this would cost a couple of dollars per book. 10,000 phone books might make good fuel, but nobody wants to pay $20,000 to get them. 3. Picking up old phone books when new ones are delivered has been suggested, but is very questionable. A large percentage of people will not be home when they are delivered (businesses will be better when delivered in business hours.) However, many people and businesses do not want to get rid of their old book right away as they may have notes in it. Others will not instantly know where their books are and some will have already disposed of them. The simple cost of a delivery person waiting several minutes for old phonebooks to be found will add significantly to the cost of obtaining them. (However, if picking up old telephone books were done by volunteers, in combination with preaching the gospel, this might be a viable thing.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b
Re: [biofuel] Making Methanol from Glycerin ( was Re: Biodiesel Glycerin-to-Methanol Condensor plans )
Bob, I have worked with the biomass gasification process for quite a few years and the conversion efficiency of biomass carbon to methanol is more in the 20% region. Check http://www.refuelnet.de/content/refuelnet/pdf/SOMFB_99.pdf At today's natural gas prices, it is cheaper to produce methanol via gas synthesis than produce it via fermentation. Hang on though, prices might be changing soon. The real energy loser in the fermentation process (after production costs) is concentrating the methanol from a dilute water solution to a fuel quality liquid. I am still interested in learning about a direct process to convert glycerin to any type of fuel. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: bob allen To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Making Methanol from Glycerin ( was Re: Biodiesel Glycerin-to-Methanol Condensor plans ) no problem in principle. Any starch/sugar/cellulosic material can be thermally degraded to to a mixture of gases and light liquids.(often referred to as destructive distillation) Catalytic reforming should yield methanol. The only problem, an engineering feat rather than a chemical problem would be optimizing yield. On an industrial scale, you only get about a 50 % energy return going from green timber to methanol. A bacterial fermentation may also be possible to produce methanol or other alcohols from glycerol. A Keith Addison wrote: Hasn't anyone got an answer or some info for Greg? This is an interesting possibility, if it is one. Best wishes Keith Can anyone spot flaws in my theory? Greg H. - Original Message - From: Greg Harbican To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 10:14 Subject: [biofuel] Making Methanol from Glycerin ( was Re: Biodiesel Glycerin-to-Methanol Condensor plans ) You know, I wasn't fully awake and definitely was not tracking correctly when I first read the subject line, but, I think that it was probably a good thing. What I read was Biodiesel Glycerin-to-Methanol ( totally missed the condenser part ), and was thinking that here was a idea that allowed people to use the glycerin by-product to make methanol. When I read the message, I realized that I had made a mistake, but, thinking about that mistake, I thought that it might just be possible. Now I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but, does not water and glycerin mix well? Then if that is the case, the solution would be a water / hydrogen carbon solution, similar to that of sugar water, which according to Walt Patrick mentioned can be used to produce Syn Gas, then converted to methanol. Please, let me know your thoughts about this possibility. Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links -- Bob Allen, Professor of Chemistry http://ozarker.org/bob Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers. Article 19 of The Declaration of Human Rights, adopted by the United Nations General Assembly,10 December 1948: ~~~ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list
Re: [biofuel] Re: Biodiesel Glycerin-to-Methanol Condensor plans
Luc, You might check with your brother-in-law again because I think you have the heat transfer coefficients of aluminum and copper reversed. Typically, copper has about twice the heat transfer capability per inch of thickness than aluminum. There are quite a variety of aluminum grades and each one has its own heat transfer capability. Copper tubing is much easier to get in 50 ft lengths and doesn't kink as easily. Although, if one tries hard enough, anything kinks. I made a heat exchanger for a microbrewery that I constructed some years ago by slipping 50 ft of 1/2 inch copper tubing inside 49 feet of one inch black poly tubing. Using plastic Tees and fittings at each end, I ran the hot beer inside the copper tubing and ran cold in a water counter flow direction in the one inch plastic tubing. I liked it because I could coil it up on the floor under one of the tank stands and it ran for many years with only occasional cleaning. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] I ran this question for a condenser by my brother-in-law who did a course in refrigerants ect... and he suggested that I use aluminium tubing instead of copper as the aluminium will transfer the cold from the water quicker than copper and the condensation will happen faster and more complete. Same as the 5 gal idea, but substitute aluminium piping instead of copper. Any second thoughts on this ? Made sense to me at the time (but then I don't know anything about it so it would, ha!) Luc --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Kevin Thanks for the info on the condenser plans to everyone who shared in the discussion. I did not realize that some info in Journey's website had specifics in the Simple 5 gallon Processor. I think I passed this info over when I was on my reactor quest and the condenser paragraph was meaningless to me at the time. -Thanks Keith Well, it's one way. There were some provisos, as mentioned in the previous message I reffed: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/34289/ So I have the basics and would hopefully like to still see some plans posted in the future. As far as we're concerned, we don't usually do plans. We're not averse to them and wouldn't mind posting other people's plans, if they're worth it, but we cobble stuff together out of bits and pieces, junk usually, and everyone's bits and pieces of junk are different. So the intention is to show what's possible so that people can improvise and adapt what they have to hand to serve the same purpose (and perhaps make some improvements that they might tell us about so we could post those too). I know everyone's not into that, some people need specifics and don't mind spending money, but that's the way we do it, and anyway I believe a lot of those people could surprise themselves and do it this way too if they'd only try. That's a very empowering thing to discover, which is a major aspect of DIY biofuels, we think. There's an overpowering miasma of engendered helplessness and dependence in our societies these days, we're not nearly as competent and generally capable as our fathers and grandfathers were, and it's nonsense - we haven't changed, we're just as capable of learning to fend for ourselves as they were. It's just an attitude, which very much suits the powers-that-be. Attitudes aren't made of concrete. /rant Pardon me. :-) Converting a liquid-to-a-gas, back to a liquid (Methanol), sounds easy enough. Let's discuss parts: Coaxial coil piping system: I haven't checked where to purchase coaxial pipe yet, (Donnie mentioned a beer homebrewing) but it appears that this can cool the gas efficiently using a cheap re-circulation water pump from let's say, a sealed bucket or as someone said a cooler of icewater? Of course it takes energy to make ice in the first place, but what else could cool the lines? Tap water. Have another look at that condensing section at the Simple 5 gallon Processor page. In theory the cooling water only has to be less than 64.7 deg C, 148.5 deg F, the boiling point of methanol. The bigger the gap the better, but you don't need ice. If the weather's real hot and it could use cooler water, or to prevent having to change the water when it got hot (it gets hot), you could rig a sort of inline evaporative drip cooling set-up the water would go through en route from the condenser back to the reservoir (bucket or whatever). I think that's quite easy and cheap, but you'd need someone else to tell you exactly how. Heater: Most likely I'll use a 1500w-1650w electric water heater threaded into the bottom
Re: [biofuel] Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: [WoodGas] Re: -----hydrocarbon cracking
Keith, This thread is heading into an area of interest for me. In the production of biogas, I need to emulsify greases which have solidified in grease traps. This material makes wonderful volumes of biogas. I was hoping to use a soap prepared from biodiesel glycerine to do the emulsification. I checked on JOURNEY TO FOREVER.ORG and saw where there is a recipe for converting an aborted load of biodiesel into glycerine soap. I think this method really only converts the veg oil to soap and the glycerine merely is a soluble component. Is that not so? As I read your posting, it would appear to be possible due to a combination of FFA's and very low pH. Is that really so and where can I learn more about the use of predominantly glycerine as a feedstock for soap production rather than as an additive to soap? Thank you! Art Krenzel - Original Message - From: Gustl Steiner-Zehender To: Biofuel Sent: Friday, May 28, 2004 5:31 AM Subject: [biofuel] Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: [WoodGas] Re: -hydrocarbon cracking Hallo All, I thought this may be of some interest to some on the list. I know it is something I have wondered about for a good while now. Happy Happy, Gustl This is a forwarded message From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thursday, 27 May, 2004, 23:57:57 Subject: : Re: [WoodGas] Re: -hydrocarbon cracking ==Original message text=== [Gustl, if you'd like to forward this to the Biofuel list you'd be more than welcome. - K] Hello Gustl Keith, When I first joined the biodiesel lists I asked about deodorizing the glycerine but was told it couldn't be done. Now this fellow, Marc, is talking about the glycerine being used for all sorts of things including soaps which, in my view, wouldn't fly with the odor it has. Has anyone come up with something I have missed and has a method of deodorizing the glycerine? Marc's right, glycerine is a valuable product with many uses. To the extent that the commercial soapmakers remove it from the soap because they can get better prices for it elsewhere - for instance in the form of skin softeners and so on to counter the effects of all that harsh glycerine-free soap! Ain't capitalism wonderful! But how valuable and useful it might be to us is another matter. I've thought of deodorising the by-product by filtering it through charcoal, but I never tried it because I think it's the wrong problem. Note I said by-product, not glycerine: generally we talk of the by-product or the glycerine cocktail. What drops out of a biodiesel reaction is not only glycerine, or often not even mainly glycerine. This is from our website: What sinks to the bottom of the biodiesel processor during the settling stage is a mixture of glycerine, methanol, soaps and the lye catalyst. Most of the excess methanol and most of the catalyst remains in this layer. And: A commonly asked question: How much glycerine do you get? A better question would be: How much of the glycerine layer is actually glycerine? The rule of thumb is 79 milliliters of glycerine per liter of oil used -- 7.9%. In fact there's usually more soap -- the glycerine layer is more of a soap layer than anything else. Unless you use Aleks Kac's Foolproof acid-base two-stage process, that is... -- From: Separating glycerine http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html#separate If you do just that, separate the by-product into it's different components as described there, you get three layers: on top, the soaps, converted back into Free Fatty Acids (in making biodiesel you remove the FFAs from the reaction by converting them to soaps, this converts them back again); below that, a layer of glycerine, maybe 85-95% pure (this layer contains the excess methanol, which can now be reclaimed for re-use); and on the bottom the catalyst, in the form of a layer of sodium or potassium phosphate salts. The important bit - once the methanol is removed, this separated glycerine doesn't smell much. The smell goes with the FFAs. It's the soaps in the by-product that smell, more than the glycerine. Problem solved. Or is it? Not really... You can't make soap out of glycerine. You can add it to soap, but if the soap already contains the glycerine content of the oil/fat it was produced from, it probably won't need any more. There's an upper limit to the glycerine content of soap and it's not very high - it's an alcohol after all. Can you sell it? Yes, in theory - but in the US anyway, only by the container-load, unless you find a special outlet. If it were really pure, 99%+, you might have more luck, but that means distilling it, and the boiling point is 290 deg C, 554 deg F, needs lots of energy. Purpose-built solvent purification
Re: [biofuel] location of girl mark workshops
It would be my suggestion that she should make a DVD and charge $8-? apiece and whet peoples appetite. If they have more questions, they can attend the workshops. She could use the DVD as advertising and perhaps make more money. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: murdoch To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 2:03 PM Subject: [biofuel] location of girl mark workshops On Mon, 24 May 2004 19:37:55 -, you wrote: Curious where Girl Mark does these workshops? Is it in Calfifornia someplace. Would love to attend one. Is there any upcoming classes and where? tj From what I've seen they seem to be often in N. California, but right now she is here in the Southwest (Arizona and NM) and I she said something about going to the Midwest this summer. I think if someone were to do the work to make a decent video (she's right it would take a lot of work to do right or even half-right) then that could help folks attend without having formally to travel to one of the workshops. When she gets back from her hiking, maybe she can clarify what web page folks can go to, if there is one, to buy one of her books, or check for the location of her next workshop, payment terms, etc. But all this takes work, even just to make sure there is a page with a schedule, so I am not trying to imply that she owes us such data or any other thing. Note that she also has this Local-B100 group to which I am cc'ing. But if you contact her, she'll probably get back to you as to if she'll be in your area, or I suppose a person could fly to California for a day. The thing she did here was put on two days. The first day was the sort of beginner-level introductory (me and others). Then the next day there was a workshop for making a reactor, which I didn't go to. She also mentioned in email offering a service of building one for you, for materials and labor. But this didn't seem to be something she'd do all the time, ... only if you were on the way and in order to pay for an upcoming trip. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Plastic cone shaped tanks - Heidi
Heidi, Here is the definitive information on the temperature and chemical limits of poly(?) tanks. http://www.chemtainer.com/new/home/pdf/chemres.pdf Art Krenzel - Original Message - From: Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 11:25 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Plastic cone shaped tanks - Heidi Apparently they are not what some have cracked them up to be, but you are welcomed to get one and have a go at it if you want. Send pics :) There comes a point where either you believe what people here are telling you or you don't. Experience is a great teacher, but other peoples' experience costs alot less. :) Hi Luc, Thanks for the link. I'd been there a few days ago and noted that the problem was electrical with one specific poly configuration. My questions were really trying to see if there were any Other poly configurations that had worked or was heated-poly in all of its forms going to fail and who had direct experience of it? Even some of the information I got from past posts was contradictory. One fellow has friends who have used poly for years, and knows others where it failed spectacularly, but there is no data on what is different in the two (or more?) configurations, if anythingso more questions trying to pull that configuration information. If it's out there and I'm not sure it is. Todd was kind enough to say he uses poly, but not to cook in. Part of me wants to get a bunch of poly conicals and cook them in different ways (but with extremely limited variables!) to discern what their safety parameters really are. At the least it'd settle the is-non-insertion-heated-poly-safe-to-use question once and for all. Poly's not cheap though, so I resort to asking others for their experimental data. I only wish there was more of it. I'm with you completely on other people's experience costing a lot less! Thanks to everyone for their help and keep the poly experience specifics coming, if you have them! HeidiWD To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but also treasonable to the American public. - Theodore Roosevelt, 1918 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Hawaii's solution
I send this hesitatingly because I am not certain of all of the options for disposal in Hawaii. This came across as the Tip of the Week. TIP OF THE WEEK Last week, we asked readers to share their thoughts on the best way for consumers to dispose of household cooking grease. Clearly, fats, oils and grease need to be kept out of sewer systems, but where should these substances go? Several readers suggested that the best solution would be collection of household FOG by local governments for conversion into biodiesel or other usable products. But would the value of the biodiesel or other products be worth the costs of collection? Other readers said sending the FOG straight to a landfill presents no problems. Alternatively, some mentioned, household FOG can be put to use in other ways around the house, such as to make fire starters for camping. Jim Newton, P.E., DEE, environmental program manager for the Kent County Department of Public Works, Dover, Del., wrote, When we first instituted our FOG program, we thought of providing a canister to each homeowner that we serve to collect grease. They could then bring the full canisters to the county wastewater facility for disposal. However, we have more than 10,000 houses on our system, and this would be very difficult and costly to administer. The state EPA does favor land application of FOG, since it is primarily made of animal and vegetable fats and is therefore biodegradable, he adds. Once it is a solid, FOG can therefore be safely placed in landfills. Don Piepgrass, a civil engineer for the city and county of Honolulu, Hawaii, writes, Here in Honolulu, residents are encouraged to dispose of household grease, plus used oil from cars and similar uses, in the trash. The trash is transported not to a landfill but to a trash-to-energy incinerator, where the grease and oil helps produce electricity. This makes it a win-win situation. It keeps grease out of the sewers, oil out of the storm drains that all flow into the ocean and helps produce energy that in turn lowers the cost of refuse disposal. Only the ash, which is 10 percent to 20 percent of the weight of the original trash, is landfilled. Is this true? Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hawaii's solution
Michael, I think you need to contact Don Piepgrass, a civil engineer for the city and county of Honolulu and let him know of your fine alternative. Great Photos! Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hawaii's solution Art, check this out: http://www.biodiesel.com/ -Michael [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Fw: Your last e-mail
Keith, Per our discussion, I have these emails to submit to the Biofuels forum. These are a series of emails that I had with Stuart Hoernig on his concept of de-humidifying air with electrostatics. They read in reverse order. Stuart was kind enough to FAX me two pages which were the basis for his concept. I reviewed them and sent my comments back to him. He has chosen to stop further communication on the subject. I have designed several high voltage Cottrell Precipitators which successfully collect particulates from the air. We have been able to collect droplets but not unless they have condensed into droplets in the airstream due to saturation. Unsaturated vapors pass right through the unit without agglomerating. I look forward to the potential of seeing these items on the market but I am not looking too hard. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 2:07 PM Subject: Your last e-mail I see no reason for us to correspond any more , you are on AC and I am on DC. Hopefully you will see some of our inventions on the market on Phoenix by the end of the year. Stuart A. Hoernig Stuart, You mentioned the obvious - that air moving across a lake can increase the water evaporation by a factor of two. What was not obvious in your presentation was that the lake was at 50 degrees centigrade (see graph data). The vapor pressure of water at 20 degrees C = 17.5 mm Hg. The vapor pressure of water at 50 degrees C = 92.51 mm Hg. The vapor pressure is 5.3 times greater at 50 degrees C than at room temperature. Would you not expect water to evaporate at least five times faster with a five fold increase in vapor pressure when you agree that wind alone doubles the evaporation rate?? Electric wind velocity is proportional to voltage applied so you can generate nice graphs such as you presented when you compare evaporation rate vs time. You said, In normal evaporation many of the drops go back to the liquid phase, if the drops are evaporated electrostatically they will have a charge and will be repelled by the surface with has the opposite charge. In my world, opposite charges attract each other. You said, Last but not least the droplets evaporated from salt water are fresh, this has been understood for some 75 years. Where do you think CA gets all its water---rainfall. Yes, CA gets rainfall which comes from condensed water VAPOR from the ocean. The vapor stage leaves behind all the solids which you are proposing to collect the droplets with. Unless you have severely acid rain, water vapor is more of an insulator when it comes to collecting a charge. That is why thunderstorms can generate incredible voltages per meter and store such high energy fields in the clouds. If the clouds had high conductivity such as the ions you propose, lightning would not be generated in such huge bursts of energy. I think this subject needs some better review. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information I guess I forgot to mention things I thought were obvious; 1) There will be a temperature drop as the water evaporates, you take some of the water and run it through long sections of plastic tubing that lie in the sun. You do not evaporate all the salt water only about 10-15 percent of it. The rest goes back to the ocean. Air moving across a lake does increase the rate of evaporation, this has been measured and at most it is a factor of 2. In normal evaporation many of the drops go back to the liquid phase, if the drops are evaporated electrostatically they will have a charge and will be repelled by the surface with has the opposite charge. Last but not least the droplets evaporated from salt water are fresh, this has been understood for some 75 years. Where do you think CA gets all its water---rainfall. Stuart [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL
Re: [biofuel] Anyone know of a good list for saving energy in the home?
Ryan, Have you looked into an evaporative cooling tower to supplement your electric air conditioning. It costs much less to operate and can handle the heat loads which are off peak for your electric company. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - R From: Ryan Morgan To: Biofuel Group Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 1:55 PM Subject: [biofuel] Anyone know of a good list for saving energy in the home? Hi All, It's almost summertime, and for those of us in the Arizona desert that means high energy bills for cooling. I am looking for a good list on how to save energy (mainly to enquire on proper AC control.) If any of you can shed light on my problem, it would be much appreciated: I have a two story home (3,200 sqft) with two central air conditioning units. The unit for the second story is smaller and uses less electricity when in use. I have top-grade insulation and energy efficient windows and doors. I have just purchased two Honeywell programmable thermostats to control the units, and am wondering how to set them. My electric company offers an on-peak, off-peak plan that I am on. Electricity costs 0.165 cents per kWh from 1:00PM to 8:00PM and 0.0369 cents all other times. Therefore, I have set my units to run (for the most part) before and after 1:00-8:00 PM. Basically the house will be cooled to 77 degrees in the off peak hours and allowed to warm to 84 degrees in the on-peak hours. Is this a good plan for efficiency? Can my upstairs unit alone do the job of cooling the house efficiently during on-peak hours? Any ideas? TIA, Ryan Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Items of information
Keith, I have not heard from Stuart or seen anything on the site. I would like to review the technology with him as well. Art - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 2:37 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Hello Art, Stuart Has there been any further discussion on this? I hope it hasn't gone off-list, leaving the issue hanging here like this, lists are for sharing. If so, could you please bring it back onlist, and recap? Thanks Keith Addison Stuart, I have reviewed the information that you Faxed me and think there might be some other features which are affecting the evaporation rate of the water beyond high voltage. First of all, the water is at 50 deg C where water has a significant vapor pressure and also significant latent heat in the mass of the water. Second: High voltage can create a feature called electric wind which can create a higher than normal airflow rate across a water surface. A higher airflow can cause a higher evaporation rate as evidenced by wind blowing across a lake. It is not uncommon to get a multiple increase in evaporation rate even at room temperature by increasing the airflow across the surface of water. Third: There is no accounting for the heat required to provide the energy for evaporation. This is a physical law and not negotiable by high voltage or such. Water doesn't just exist at 50 deg C unless something is heating it up and this was not made clear in the data or sketches you sent. How much energy was added to the water during the time of testing? Fourth: I would like a better explanation how water vapor can be condensed using high voltage. I can understand how droplets (not water vapor) can be electrostatically collected if they can hold a charge but not water vapor. I worked for a waste water evaporator manufacturer for awhile and noticed that the evaporation rate when the liquid level was close to the stack was quite high. As the liquid level dropped, the rate of evaporation dropped as well. It turns out the spray from fractured boiling bubbles was being entrained in the airflow out the exhaust. This entrainment counted as evaporation rate but really clogged the stack as the water evaporated and left the solids which had been in the evaporator waste water. Fifth: Your sketch showed water droplets being created by the airflow across the evaporator. If droplets are being condensed in a condenser downstream of the evaporator, the salt concentration of the condensed water will be the same as the salt concentration in the evaporator. That is not de-salination. Only when you go to completely pure water vapor are you able to leave the solids behind. Looking forward to your reply. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com ; stuart a hoenig Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] The evaporation and condensation of water are very simple. In Fig. 1 I show the data from Japan Fig. 2 is the set up that would be used, I drew the system of Fig. 2 on the beach where it would be used. The distance of the high voltage electrode from the water in Fig.1 is about 5 cm. You will have to adjust this to the voltage available, Asakawa used 250 volts AC I have gotten somewhat better results with -5000 VDC. In Fig. 2 the needles in the salt water section should run at about -10kV in the next section -10 to -15kV best. I can send more details about the ground plate and other things. For the first unit you can use steel sewing needles, but steel will rust in that environment, eventually you will have to go to stainless. I will be happy to work with you. Suppliers of high voltage equipment include Edmund Scientific, www.scientificsonline.com, SURPLUS CENTER www.surpluscenter.com or GAMMA High Voltage, ask for Dom Galluzzo Tel 904-677-7070. Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig Dept. of Electrical Engin. Univ. Of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 - Original Message - From: Art Krenzel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Professor Hoenig: You presented some very fine ideas with your recent post to this listserve. I thank you. I have followed the desalination concepts for years but have not heard of a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by 500%and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed
Re: [biofuel] Items of information
Stuart, I have reviewed the information that you Faxed me and think there might be some other features which are affecting the evaporation rate of the water beyond high voltage. First of all, the water is at 50 deg C where water has a significant vapor pressure and also significant latent heat in the mass of the water. Second: High voltage can create a feature called electric wind which can create a higher than normal airflow rate across a water surface. A higher airflow can cause a higher evaporation rate as evidenced by wind blowing across a lake. It is not uncommon to get a multiple increase in evaporation rate even at room temperature by increasing the airflow across the surface of water. Third: There is no accounting for the heat required to provide the energy for evaporation. This is a physical law and not negotiable by high voltage or such. Water doesn't just exist at 50 deg C unless something is heating it up and this was not made clear in the data or sketches you sent. How much energy was added to the water during the time of testing? Fourth: I would like a better explanation how water vapor can be condensed using high voltage. I can understand how droplets (not water vapor) can be electrostatically collected if they can hold a charge but not water vapor. I worked for a waste water evaporator manufacturer for awhile and noticed that the evaporation rate when the liquid level was close to the stack was quite high. As the liquid level dropped, the rate of evaporation dropped as well. It turns out the spray from fractured boiling bubbles was being entrained in the airflow out the exhaust. This entrainment counted as evaporation rate but really clogged the stack as the water evaporated and left the solids which had been in the evaporator waste water. Fifth: Your sketch showed water droplets being created by the airflow across the evaporator. If droplets are being condensed in a condenser downstream of the evaporator, the salt concentration of the condensed water will be the same as the salt concentration in the evaporator. That is not de-salination. Only when you go to completely pure water vapor are you able to leave the solids behind. Looking forward to your reply. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com ; stuart a hoenig Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] The evaporation and condensation of water are very simple. In Fig. 1 I show the data from Japan Fig. 2 is the set up that would be used, I drew the system of Fig. 2 on the beach where it would be used. The distance of the high voltage electrode from the water in Fig.1 is about 5 cm. You will have to adjust this to the voltage available, Asakawa used 250 volts AC I have gotten somewhat better results with -5000 VDC. In Fig. 2 the needles in the salt water section should run at about -10kV in the next section -10 to -15kV best. I can send more details about the ground plate and other things. For the first unit you can use steel sewing needles, but steel will rust in that environment, eventually you will have to go to stainless. I will be happy to work with you. Suppliers of high voltage equipment include Edmund Scientific, www.scientificsonline.com, SURPLUS CENTER www.surpluscenter.com or GAMMA High Voltage, ask for Dom Galluzzo Tel 904-677-7070. Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig Dept. of Electrical Engin. Univ. Of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 - Original Message - From: Art Krenzel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Professor Hoenig: You presented some very fine ideas with your recent post to this listserve. I thank you. I have followed the desalination concepts for years but have not heard of a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by 500%and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed by another simple electrical system. Would you elaborate on the specifics of the process, please? I fully support your concept of recovering biogas from organic wastes destined for landfills and subsequent loss from the cycle of life. Keep beating the drum! Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:11 AM Subject: [biofuel] Items of information Reading the messages it appears that most of the members are thinking only about their personal problems. Making biogas on a home basis is impractical
Re: [biofuel] Re: start-up biodiesel project
Bryan, All good anaerobic processes begin by using cow manure as an inoculants. Then nature takes over and the most appropriate microbial species becomes dominant and away you go! Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 5:41 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re: start-up biodiesel project Art, Is the process for for converting waste oils to biogas the same as for biomass and manure? Anerobic environment? If so, what is the feed source of the bacteria? Offal? Thx, Bryan If all of the five tons per day of waste oils could not be made into biodiesel and were converted to biogas instead, you could expect to recover on the order of 10 - 20 million BTU's in biogas per day. This energy which would translate into about 1 - 2,000 Kwhr and 10 - 20,000 gallons per day of 150 deg F hot water. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: biofuel start-up biodiesel project
Keith, you said: Typical life before doing any repair to the engine is 300,000 miles. The CO2 can be used for softening hard water, the two gases can be separated by bubbling through hard water. The CH4 is not soluble the CO2 is, the water starts at pH=8.6 and goes to pH=7.2 (normal). The solids and liquids that come off are great for farming. It needs aerobic composting first. That is not correct. If you aerobically compost the feedstocks first your remove a significant amount of the energy from the feedstocks going to the biogas digester. This might be why your friends are having such a low gas production. A biogas digester has the same finikyness as feeding a human. If you give it a slug of diesel fuel it will take up to 30 - 45 days to get back on line. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Items of information
Prof. Hoenig, I received your FAX of figs 1 2 - Thank you! Where can I read more about the dehumidification process using high voltage? I have designed and constructed a wide range of Cottrell Precipitators during my career as a Chemical Engineer but have not seen anything about condensation of vapors using high voltages. I need to be enlightened. What is your best guess as to overall efficiency resulting from hooking both the evap and the condensing processes together? Looking forward to you reply. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com ; stuart a hoenig Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] The evaporation and condensation of water are very simple. In Fig. 1 I show the data from Japan Fig. 2 is the set up that would be used, I drew the system of Fig. 2 on the beach where it would be used. The distance of the high voltage electrode from the water in Fig.1 is about 5 cm. You will have to adjust this to the voltage available, Asakawa used 250 volts AC I have gotten somewhat better results with -5000 VDC. In Fig. 2 the needles in the salt water section should run at about -10kV in the next section -10 to -15kV best. I can send more details about the ground plate and other things. For the first unit you can use steel sewing needles, but steel will rust in that environment, eventually you will have to go to stainless. I will be happy to work with you. Suppliers of high voltage equipment include Edmund Scientific, www.scientificsonline.com, SURPLUS CENTER www.surpluscenter.com or GAMMA High Voltage, ask for Dom Galluzzo Tel 904-677-7070. Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig Dept. of Electrical Engin. Univ. Of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721 - Original Message - From: Art Krenzel To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Professor Hoenig: You presented some very fine ideas with your recent post to this listserve. I thank you. I have followed the desalination concepts for years but have not heard of a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by 500%and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed by another simple electrical system. Would you elaborate on the specifics of the process, please? I fully support your concept of recovering biogas from organic wastes destined for landfills and subsequent loss from the cycle of life. Keep beating the drum! Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:11 AM Subject: [biofuel] Items of information Reading the messages it appears that most of the members are thinking only about their personal problems. Making biogas on a home basis is impractical for the great majority of people and there is no large commercial industry in the business. With methane the situation is different, there is a huge business involved in methane production. In fact Tucson, which may be the most backward city in the US, runs buses on methane. It will run automobiles with just minor modifications. Another thing about methane, you can make it anaerobically by digestion of garbage, sewage and farm waste. The CO2 that comes off is used for softening hard water, the CH4 (methane) is used for fuel. Just think you get rid of sewage and garbage quickly and produce useful fuel. There are 500 plants in Europe and about 60 in the US. I can provide more information. The thing that is really going to be short in the Western part of the USA and many undeveloped countries is fresh water. The Colorado and it's dams are down about 50% or more. One simple solution would be the desalting of sea water. Work was done on this in Japan some years ago, it was shown that a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by 500% and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed by another simple electrical system and you have unlimited fresh water. These are things the world needs NOW, I would hope that the members will give them some consideration. Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig Dept. of Electrical Engin. Univ. of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721-0104 Fax 520-887-9727 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list
Re: [biofuel] Our new off grid home
Steve, Where in the world have you taken up the challenge of living off the grid? Art Krenzel - Original Message - From: Steve Spence To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 6:59 PM Subject: [biofuel] Our new off grid home I have exciting news to share. Today we closed on our off grid home in 5 acres of woods. PV, Wind, Rain Water filled Cistern, Veggie Oil powered VW Rabbit generator, wood heat, etc. Paradise! I will be sharing photo's and construction articles as we expand and improve our little slice of heaven. Expansion of the rain harvester/cistern, and solar water heater with wood backup is the first order of business. Steve Spence http://www.green-trust.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] start-up biodiesel project
Lito, Do you need transportable fuel or will stationary fuel work for you as well? For all the organics which are not suitable for biodiesel, how about biogas. The biogas process produces a combustible gas containing about 50 - 60% methane which can be combusted in a small diesel engine which has the added advantage of recovering waste heat in the form of hot water which the slaughter house can use. If all of the five tons per day of waste oils could not be made into biodiesel and were converted to biogas instead, you could expect to recover on the order of 10 - 20 million BTU's in biogas per day. This energy which would translate into about 1 - 2,000 Kwhr and 10 - 20,000 gallons per day of 150 deg F hot water. It all depends upon whether you need to be able to transport the fuel. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Angelito Abaoag To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 10:53 PM Subject: [biofuel] start-up biodiesel project good day to all I've been reading all comments and inquiries to this group for the last 4 months. and thru the comments i learned a lot. we are currently conducting a feasibility of converting the high-fat waste by-products of slaughterhouse here in Manila, Philippines to a biodiesel. our estimate waste generation per day is around 5 tons. we are currently designing the conversion model pattern after several designs i got from several internet sites. my questions are 1) which is more feasible to create, a big unit or several units? in terms of safety, economics, etc and 2) we intend to use the diesel are fuel for generators rather than to cars, is it a wise choice? thank you lito abaoag eco-logic ventures inc manila, philippines [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Items of information
Professor Hoenig: You presented some very fine ideas with your recent post to this listserve. I thank you. I have followed the desalination concepts for years but have not heard of a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by 500%and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed by another simple electrical system. Would you elaborate on the specifics of the process, please? I fully support your concept of recovering biogas from organic wastes destined for landfills and subsequent loss from the cycle of life. Keep beating the drum! Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 11:11 AM Subject: [biofuel] Items of information Reading the messages it appears that most of the members are thinking only about their personal problems. Making biogas on a home basis is impractical for the great majority of people and there is no large commercial industry in the business. With methane the situation is different, there is a huge business involved in methane production. In fact Tucson, which may be the most backward city in the US, runs buses on methane. It will run automobiles with just minor modifications. Another thing about methane, you can make it anaerobically by digestion of garbage, sewage and farm waste. The CO2 that comes off is used for softening hard water, the CH4 (methane) is used for fuel. Just think you get rid of sewage and garbage quickly and produce useful fuel. There are 500 plants in Europe and about 60 in the US. I can provide more information. The thing that is really going to be short in the Western part of the USA and many undeveloped countries is fresh water. The Colorado and it's dams are down about 50% or more. One simple solution would be the desalting of sea water. Work was done on this in Japan some years ago, it was shown that a simpler electrical system could increase the rate of evaporation by 500% and the evaporated water is fresh. This water can be condensed by another simple electrical system and you have unlimited fresh water. These are things the world needs NOW, I would hope that the members will give them some consideration. Prof. Stuart A. Hoenig Dept. of Electrical Engin. Univ. of Arizona Tucson, AZ 85721-0104 Fax 520-887-9727 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty
Darryl, We were trying to get to a unique graphical presentation included in the report of the first solar chimney which they constructed in Spain. Not just the information on solar chimneys. Art - Original Message - From: Darryl McMahon To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty You can also try this URL to get to a more friendly start point. http://www.sbp.de/en/html/home/solar_chimney.html Darryl McMahon To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com From: Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date sent:Thu, 29 Apr 2004 22:29:11 -0700 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty Send reply to:biofuel@yahoogroups.com Andrew, Try this URL: http://www.sbp.de/en/fla/index.html On the upper right side of the page there is a list of articles which can be downloaded. Chose THE SOLAR CHIMNEY (360 kb) article. Open the article and look on page 3 for this great graphic that puts population, Gross National Product and BTU's into perspective by country. I hope you enjoy the article and concept as well. It is quite revolutionary to use solar power 24 hours per day. Art - Original Message - From: Andrew Lowe To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty Art Krenzel wrote: Keith Brian, I have found a graphic which summarizes some of what you are saying. Try this for size - I got it from a German Solar Tower publication. I cannot get it stick to the email message other than as an attachment. I am sending it to the home page because I know YAHOO strips off all attachments. http://www.sbp.de/en/fla/index.htmlThe graphic in question is on page 3 of the document and summarizes the effects of energy use and productivity by country. I hope this helps. Art [snip] How do I find the page 3 in question? Could you please provide a few steps to get to the page in question? Regards, Andrew Lowe p.s. Being a Structural Engineer by profession I'm inclined to say F**K, that's one company I would like to work for :) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http
Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty
Keith Brian, I have found a graphic which summarizes some of what you are saying. Try this for size - I got it from a German Solar Tower publication. I cannot get it stick to the email message other than as an attachment. I am sending it to the home page because I know YAHOO strips off all attachments. http://www.sbp.de/en/fla/index.html The graphic in question is on page 3 of the document and summarizes the effects of energy use and productivity by country. I hope this helps. Art - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 12:47 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty Hi Brian Thanks for the forward. I find it disturbing that the article is recommenting conversion to wood alcohol Wood gas, not wood alcohol. Producer gas. Here: http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html#woodgas as a potential energy alternative, even to the point of giving recommendations on how to cut down trees. Yes, trees are renewable, but not quickly. Our tree reserve would fail even more quickly than our oil reserve, and the consequences would be even more dire. Brian You're looking at the wrong paradigm, IMHO. I know it's hard, but we all have to get used to the idea of looking at familiar things in a different and unfamiliar light, in a different context, with different relationships among them, and between them and us. Going on and on playing the same old business-as-usual game with a few quick fixes and band-aids stuck on it isn't going to work. That's what's got us here now, and it's not at all where we're supposed to have been, to our great cost and everybody else's, including the not-yet born. This has all been known for 30 years, and until very recently we'd done NOTHING about it. The worst offenders have still done nothing about it. And we sneer at Nero and King Canute. Sorry to say all that, and this, but our tree reserve and our oil reserve are the wrong indicators. We can see all the projections being made, of growth in fossil-fuel use based on current use and recent rates of increase and projected economic growth and so on and so on, the US DoE forecasts that biodiesel will account for such-and-such a proportion of national fuel use in 20 years at current growth rates - it's not going to happen. One reason I forwarded this message from Tvo is that he's talking about what we often talk about here, many of us, when we discuss a rational and sustainable energy future and the role biodiesel and other biofuels can play in it. Mere substitution of fossil-fuel use by biofuel use is not an answer. It will take great reductions in energy use, great improvements in energy efficiency, and perhaps most important, decentralisation of energy supply to local level, along with the use of all available technologies in appropriate combination according to local conditions. Tvo is talking about that local level, on a homestead: how to power your homestead/farm. I've often discussed that here, and said a mixed, integrated, sustainable farm (likely to be a small farm) can supply its own fuel without any fossil-fuel inputs and without the use of much or any dedicated land, mostly or completely from an ever-changing variety of by-products, with probably an excess to supply to the community. A woodlot of some kind is an essential element in such a mixed, integrated, sustainable farm, better still with a lot more trees than just those in the woodlot. Trees and woodlots are very productive. This is not the monocrop slash-and-burn nightmare of the biomass plantations the central energy planners envision. These are multiple species of multi-use trees at many stages of growth. Tvo's scheme is completely feasible and he knows it, he's done it, and he's not the only one. He just posted this at that list, in a message in a different thread: Large-scale, the charcoal market can be environmentally destructive, small-scale you can confine it to trash products in your woodlot that aren't even good as compost. And yes, homestead products CAN compete with industrial-scale products. You just have to be selective which products you produce and how they are distributed. Looked at from the central view, people throw up their arms in dismay at the idea of charcoal, and quite right too, the way they'd go about it. What isn't feasible, not even now, let alone when the crunch hits home, is the way the industrialised societies, especially the US, currently waste energy as if there's no tomorrow. Look at these figures: On a per capita basis, the US uses 5.4 times more than its fair share of the world's energy, the EU 2.6 times its share, Germany 2.6 times its share, France 2.8 times its share, Japan 2.7 times its share, Australia 3.8 times its share.
Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty
Andrew, Try this URL: http://www.sbp.de/en/fla/index.html On the upper right side of the page there is a list of articles which can be downloaded. Chose THE SOLAR CHIMNEY (360 kb) article. Open the article and look on page 3 for this great graphic that puts population, Gross National Product and BTU's into perspective by country. I hope you enjoy the article and concept as well. It is quite revolutionary to use solar power 24 hours per day. Art - Original Message - From: Andrew Lowe To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 10:06 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty Art Krenzel wrote: Keith Brian, I have found a graphic which summarizes some of what you are saying. Try this for size - I got it from a German Solar Tower publication. I cannot get it stick to the email message other than as an attachment. I am sending it to the home page because I know YAHOO strips off all attachments. http://www.sbp.de/en/fla/index.html The graphic in question is on page 3 of the document and summarizes the effects of energy use and productivity by country. I hope this helps. Art [snip] How do I find the page 3 in question? Could you please provide a few steps to get to the page in question? Regards, Andrew Lowe p.s. Being a Structural Engineer by profession I'm inclined to say F**K, that's one company I would like to work for :) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty
Andrew, You would be the mouse the won the cheese for being able to navigate through their not-too-clear website and find the graphic. Good job!! Art - Original Message - From: Andrew Lowe To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 10:14 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Running On Empty Andrew Lowe wrote: Art Krenzel wrote: Keith Brian, I have found a graphic which summarizes some of what you are saying. Try this for size - I got it from a German Solar Tower publication. I cannot get it stick to the email message other than as an attachment. I am sending it to the home page because I know YAHOO strips off all attachments. http://www.sbp.de/en/fla/index.html The graphic in question is on page 3 of the document and summarizes the effects of energy use and productivity by country. I hope this helps. Art [snip] How do I find the page 3 in question? Could you please provide a few steps to get to the page in question? Regards, Andrew Lowe p.s. Being a Structural Engineer by profession I'm inclined to say F**K, that's one company I would like to work for :) Replying to my own email, down at the bottom of the main page, there are various links, click on Contact. When the Contact page comes up, on the left hnd side, click on Downloads. When the downloads page comes up, have a look at Solar Chimney. This has, I think, the graph in question on p3. In fact the other papers on the page are worth a look as well. Regards, Andrew Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report
Robert, I would like to pass on something I learned in the last war the US began to prevent communism from taking over and to establish Democracy in a third world nation (and we lost that one rather badly). I served honorably in the Vietnam War and this was my combat lesson in a sentence. TECHNOLOGY CANNOT BEAT IDEOLOGY! When people are willing to run into the face of guns armed only with a broken stick and a willingness to die - Technology shock and awe is reversed against those who only bring technology onto the battlefield. I know. Let us not learn that lesson again. Art Krenzel - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report Hakan Falk wrote: Robert, It was very interesting to read your thorough analysis, they are very good. It will be difficult to get the Iraqi oil on line, as long as the occupation continues and I think that Bush understand that and that is why he pushes the June deadline. He may be a bit simple minded, but I don't think the man is entirely without wit. There is a political element to this as well, given that daily casualty reports are an irritant to the voting public. Mr. Bush faces another election in November, and I think he'd like to have power handed over already so that he can distance himself from the daily carnage, call the operation a success, wave the flag a bit more and stir up additional political support. (Not that he's going to need it with the campaign funding he's already amassed!) The problem is that it is an other naive miscalculation, to belive that they can have a strong puppet regime. Didn't the British have that experience in the 1930's? I recall reading that the RAF had to enforce an unpopular tax by strafing unfriendly villages. I hope we don't resort to such tactics this time around. It is in a hurry, because without Iraq, it is no space for swing production and any pressures to keep oil prices low. The Saudis have always been in support of US, but I think that all the anti Saudi talk, is bringing this to an end and with serious consequences. They will not make the mistake to declare this openly, but the result will be the same and the anti Saudi talk will be even stronger. The only disaster that US is missing, is a very bad relationship with the Saudis (declared 25% of the worlds oil reserves, but probably largely over estimated). Saudi Arabia is a SERIOUS problem for us. Alan's post that originated this thread may illustrate the links between the Bush family and the House of Saud, but nobody seems too willing to discuss the potential problems that may arise when King Faud dies. Of course, US can always go back to try Venezuela again. LOL We've been bullies in Latin America for a long time. That region of the world is particularly dear to me. It is also an other small thing that make the Iraqi situation difficult. With the first Gulf war, where the Americans wiped out the Iraqi army, the US led embargo that killed at least 5,000 children a year and finally the invasion of Iraq, it is very few families in Iraq who did not have a family member or a friend killed by the Americans. After all, 80% of the Iraqi population is women and children under 16 years of age. The Americans do not have the finesse of Saddam, were the parts of population was played against each other, a sort of politics. The Americans are more true to the American democracy, they kill everybody, without any prejudice to race, color or position. I think that it is the trigger happiness in Wild West style. I woudn't say that. Whoever puts the most ordinance on target usually wins in a conventional war; a lesson the Russians learned from Napolean and used with devastating effect on the Wermacht at the end of WW II. I've said before that the military is a blunt instrument, at best. Our armed services effectively destroyed the world's fourth largest army because the weapons systems and tactics we've developed are intended to deliver maximum firepower on a given target. (Especially the Soviet equipment that largely made up Saddam's army.) That works well in conventional warfare against readily identifiable targets. The asymmetrical tactics being used by the opposition in Iraq cannot be effectively countered this way because the political costs for slaying civilians en-masse is too high for us to pay. I have a couple of simple questions. Is it possible to win the peoples harts and mind, when you killed the same peoples grandfather, grandmother, father, mother, brother, sister or friends? Is it not a very naive proposition? I think it's unlikely that we
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report
Keith, Your resourcefulness is fantastic! To have found the perfect story to make my point puts you at the top of my list. Thank you for the input from THE AGONY OF OCCUPATION! Art Krenzel - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 5:59 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re: OT: House of Bush, House of Saud book report I had read a fantastic short story relating to just this issue about 20 years ago. I thought it was by Steinbeck, but have been unable to ever find it again. It was about residents in a northern European town occupied by the nazis, and their underground resistance. The point to the story was exactly that people will continue to fight for ideology long after they are clearly defeated, and that this is a fight that can't be lost in the long run. I wiswh that I could find that story again. Brian THE AGONY OF OCCUPATION The Flies Have Conquered the Fly Paper Paul Rockwell By ten-forty-five, it was all over. The town was occupied, the defenders defeated, and the war finished. These are the opening lines of 'The Moon is Down', John Steinbeck's brilliant novel about the German occupation of Norway, a story about conquerors-decent, home-loving soldiers under the sway of nationalism-who occupy a foreign land. What happens when an invading army proclaims mission accomplished prematurely? It is impossible to read Steinbeck's masterpiece without thinking about our own soldiers in Iraq and Fallujah, about their daily fear, the growing tendency for revenge, the agony of conquest. 'The Moon is Down' is not primarily about the Norwegian people, or even about the resistance. It's about the terror, the self-doubts, the slow transformation of arrogance to self-loathing, under which invaders live. Steinbeck conveys the breakdown of morale, the shock of recognition, in a series of dialogues-outbursts and remarks of tense and frazzled soldiers. They hate us, says one. They hate us so much. I don't like it here, sir. A lieutenant exclaims: The enemy's everywhere. Every man, woman, even children. The faces look out of doorways. The white faces behind the curtains, listening. We have beaten them, we have won everywhere, and they wait and obey, and they wait. Commanders try vainly to instill hope and confidence. When we have killed the leaders, says one, the rebellion will be broken. Do you really think so? responds a skeptical German. When a lieutenant is upset by the hostility of the local population, his commander admonishes him: I will not lie to you, Lieutenant. They should have trained you for this, and not for flower-strewn streets. They should have built your soul with truth, not led you along with lies. But you took the job, Lieutenant. We can't take care of your soul. The occupiers are not pacified. Captain, is this place conquered? Of course, the captain replies. But the listener cracks. Conquered and we're afraid, conquered and we're surrounded. The flies have conquered the fly paper! 'The Moon is Down' is not about the violence; it's about the psychology of occupation. Steinbeck focuses on the inability of occupying soldiers to cope with the ingratitude of a liberated people. Germans trusted their leaders and expected to be greeted with flowers, not contempt. The public hatred of the occupation, not sabotage alone, destroys German morale. The cold hatred grew with the winter, the silent sullen hatred. Now it was that the conqueror was surrounded, the men of the battalion alone with silent enemies, and no man might relax guard even for a moment. If he did, he disappeared. If he drank, he disappeared. The men of the battalion could sing only together, could dance only together, and dancing gradually stopped and the singing expressed a longing for home. The talk was of friends and relatives who loved them and their longings were for warmth and love, because a man can be a soldier for only so many hours a day and only so many months a year, and then he wants to be a man again. And the men thought always of home. The men of the battalion came to detest the place they had conquered and they were curt with the people and the people were curt with them, and gradually a little fear began to grow in the conquerors, a fear that it would never be over, that they could never relax and go home, a fear that one day they would crack and be hunted Then the soldiers read the news from home and from other conquered countries, and the news was always good, and for a little while they believed it. And their sleep was restless and their days were nervous. Thus it came about that the conquerors grew afraid of the conquered and their nerves wore thin and they shot at shadows in the night. Fear crept in on the men, crept
Re: [biofuel] Cellulose-Alcohol story.
Keith, My data was the 1998 report by Prof. David Pimentel which has been lamblasted by the renewable energy folks. I think it is more of the correct story than saying that, using selected data, the ENERGY BALANCE tips in the favor of ethanol. If the tractor is used in the production of the raw materials, its' cost must be included in the equation. Life is not so simple as to say -Here is corn, now make ethanol and only count the conversion energy. Life cycle cost analysis is being touted as a more correct view of cheap Chinese plastic parts inundating the American markets. Whatever became of the metal parts you could repair instead of the plastic ones that break easily and must be thrown away. I have included a piece from your web page, JOURNEY TO FOREVER, on the Pimentel report which I do not agree with. Corn-Based Ethanol Does Indeed Achieve Energy Benefits -- Prof. David Pimentel's 1998 assessment of corn ethanol concluded that corn ethanol achieved a negative energy balance (which is usually defined as the energy in a product minus energy used to produce the product). Unfortunately, his assessment lacked timeliness in that it relied on data appropriate to conditions of the 1970s and early 1980s, but clearly not the 1990s... With up-to-date information on corn farming and ethanol production and treating ethanol co-products fairly, we have concluded that corn-based ethanol now has a positive energy balance of about 20,000 Btu per gallon. Art - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 12:31 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Cellulose-Alcohol story. Hi Art The list is set to reject attachments, as well as html or coded messages (ASCII - plain text only) as an essential anti-virus measure. If you send me the attachment direct I can put it where folk can see it, either at Journey to Forever or in the list Files area (which is not very useful since Yahoo improved it). Best Keith Todd, Take a look at the attachment. Thanks for not raining on my parade! :-) Art - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story. Hellow Art, Rather than raining on anyone's parade, how about sharing the source of what you read. Ethanol is one dickens of a burgeoning industry. Either it has some economical and/or environmental merit or it's the biggest scam since organized religion. Wouldn't hurt to let an audience decide for themselves. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story. RR, Sorry to rain on your parade but the recent numbers that I read from as late as a year ago, when the costs of production include replacement cost of farm machinery and consumables, the equation is a break even at best but more likely still a loss. I am willing to listen but show me the data and the source. Also, what is the concentration of the 70 gallons of ethanol produced from the cellulose? That is, most likely, a theoretical number which is probably based on dilute solutions. One of the constraints on ethanol production is that as the concentration of alcohol increases the fermentation slows down. Advertisers of technology tout yields of dilute concentrations of ethanol - producers (who have to distill the dilute water solutions) push delivered cents per gallon costs of ethanol. The difference is quite wide and affects the bottom line harshly. What is the methanol from the products of hydrolysis statement? Are you speaking of converting the hydrolyzed biomass to methane biogas and catalytically converting that to methanol? I am looking forward to the education. Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 11:57 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story. Art, You should consider not using old numbers on energy used in ethanol production. It has been discussed several times in this forum how current, and more accurate, numbers show that producing ethanol, at least from corn, is energy positive, not energy negative. Not to mention the newer processes that include the corn stalk, which double the alcohol output. Not meant to start yet another dispute with regard to fuel from food, or sustainability needs of returning waste to the fields. From what I've read, one ton of waste paper (cellulose) can
Re: [biofuel] Kevin Shea
Jimbull, Operating a poly drum filled with hot oil at 225 deg F sounds like an accident waiting to happen. Just stop and think for awhile what your response will be when the side of the drum tears and dumps (I assume) 55 gallons of hot oil around your work area. Why not use a metal drum just for safety's sake? Threading a metal heater element into the soft metal wall of the poly drum sounds like another accident waiting to happen. I am sorry, but as a Professional Engineer I cannot be still over these simple but dangerous issues. Please look a bit farther ahead and save yourself some time spent in bandages and the hospital burn unit (if available). Don't be so focused on near term gains that you forget to look at long term losses. Art Krenzel - Original Message - From: tazmaniantoo To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 6:30 AM Subject: [biofuel] Kevin Shea Mr Shea, I saw your message and I also was wondering about a seperate processor for incoming raw if you will, wvo. I came up with a poly drum that I had with two 4500 watt water heater elements. If you go with a thermostate, you won't get them hot enough, least mine didn't, so I went w/o it and set them on a reostate (a30amp one is strong enough) and I can get 225 degree plus out of it. My barrel has sides strong enough to run the elements into and they tap threads themselves (metal vs plastic) however, I do not trust just that so I put a generous layer of metal set around the element and that will stict to anything and it holds very well. I have a 30gal fumeless processor built on the plans from the web site at journey to forever. I made some additions to it, as I have it set up to draw wvo in, circutlate in the hot water heater, draw the meth in and then transfer to the was tank and finally pump it out all using the same pump. I used pex tubing and valves on all the set up and it works great. I do 25 gals at a time and thats 5 gal of meth/lye mix at a time and get around 22 gal or so back. runs great in my johndeer 4020hope this helps a little, as the forum is getting more political then helpfull to people like us...jimbull Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] (unknown)
Jim, Polypropylene is rated to a working temperature of 180 degrees F. Polyethylene, which is used in most drums today, is rated at 125 degrees F. It appears you may be operating just over the manufacturers working temperature and surviving. I thought you had a polyethylene drum which is more common. Art - Original Message - From: tazmaniantoo To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 11:11 AM Subject: [biofuel] (unknown) Art, I have used these poly tanks for about thew last ten years or better boiling water to cook oats for our race horses. Now that was to the temp that the water is boiling. Not one time has the barrel split, broke, spilt or what everthe threaded bulkhead fitting is covered in about a half inch of metal set, which if you have never used, you can actually mill it, drill it tap it, etc. in orther words, its very strong. I do appreciate you concern on safety, however if you'll talk to the people the make the injected polyprolene (sp?) they will tell you the same. their tanks, barrels are rated to some quite high temps., none of which I even get close to..thanks again for your feed backJimbull Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story.
Keith, I join your efforts! I am the strongest proponent of returning biomass to soil as soil amendment. I began the world's largest composting program twelve years ago. Now it is returning 1.2 million tons per year of ag wastes back to farmland as soil amendment each year. Please consider that converting the carbon molecule in cellulose from a high grade ethanol feedstock to a lower grade soil amendment will work only if the ethanol wastes are taken back to the area where the crops were produced. The farmer enters an unspoken agreement with nature that, if a crop is produced, the residues must be put back into the soil to regenerate the soil. We are now in a society where wastes can be moved hundreds of miles from their production location and never make it back. Landfills are a classic example. I am on a personal mission to recover organic wastes currently going into landfills first as biogas and return those residues to soil as soil amendment. Keep organics out of the landfill completely - they are a soil resource and a landfill is a needless waste of the product. Biogas biology has had a recent revolution making the economics much more favorable and the gas can easily be burned in stationary diesel engines to produce electricity and recoverable heat energy. I have a national model which takes each community water treatment biodigester and converts it into an improved biogas and soil amendment producer from biosolids and food wastes. Keep blowing the soil health/fertility/sustainability bugle and I will form up with you. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 2:29 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story. Hello RR If this story is true, it would be of monumental importance. Billions of tons of this stuff (cellulose) must be produced yearly around the world, in association with food production. What is the holdup, with exploiting this technology? If India/China needs fuel for cars, here it is. The lack of press coverage, is disappointing and suspicious. In the US?? Well yes, excellent general statement, but you shouldn't be surprised. Anyway, two things about cellulose. Much of what would be available would be crop wastes, and that there might be billions of tons of it doesn't necessarily mean it's up for grabs. Crop wastes need to be returned to the soil if there's of be much of a future for crop production. Richer countries can postpone it a bit with chemical fertilisers, and end up with worse problems in the longer run, but poorer countries often can't even afford to do that. So endless supplies of ethanol fuel might have to bear the ever-soaring costs of denuded farmlands, and those costs tend to spill out well beyond the farm fence. Not worth it. It would need planned cellulose production, perhaps as a crop by-product, but not at the expense of soil fertility. Second, there's quite a lot of information here: Ethanol from cellulose http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose Best Keith RR --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have also been trying to keep half an eye on them (Iogen itself is not publicly traded, which makes this a bit of a challenge, even if some of its investors apparently are), and on Genencor (stock symbol GCOR here in the US), and although riored's question was blunt, it does sort of summarize my own standing question about a lot of companies, particularly in this field. This field I have labled as important because of the DOE's comments some years ago as to the economic importance of turning cellulosic matter into ethanol. According to them, such an advance was more or less necessary - the key - to making ethanol more sustainable and economically viable in the U.S. This was in response to many of the questions as to the pricing and volumes available for Ethanol. I do *not* think such an argument by them should be taken at face value without questioning or discussion, but I did take it under advisement that some of the basis for the argument seemed to make some sense ... i.e., taking matter which, without the ethanol advancement, would have limited value, labled by some as waste, and adding a value to it. For some reason, I don't know why, I have Iogen ranked in my mind as less full of it than GCOR. From your update, I can see that Iogen has been in we're working on it in the lab mode similar to GCOR, and has received government research funding monies for awhile, also similar to GCOR. Last I checked with them, two or three years ago, mutual fund NALFX, one of the only really super-strict
Re: [biofuel] Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story.
RR, If you do not see any reason why only mineral residues should be returned to soil, you do not understand how natural soil works. The carbon which is returned in the form of a soil amendment acts as food for the biology which converts soil minerals into plant available materials for growth. Otherwise all the material to be consumed by the plant would need to be already processed to plant available materials before the plant can use them. Depleted soils are those which have too little active biology present (organic matter) to do the processing and/or too little mineral matter to convert to plant available foods. Returning organic matter is the key to soil sustainability, not just minerals. One of the limiting factor in converting any organic material to alcohol is the cost of distillation of the alcohol from the water. Typically, alcohol made from cellulose is very low yielding and typically produces about a 2% alcohol product. Alcohol fermentation from corn or grain feedstocks produces an alcohol concentration of up to 10% or greater. Since the fossil fuels required to produce and distill a 10% alcohol solution is already greater than the energy it produces as alcohol, evaporating five times more water due to the low feedstock concentration would make the energy equation even more negative. The breakthrough would be if cellulose could produce higher concentrations of alcohol or a new low cost method of separating the alcohol from the water solution is developed or such. Plain poor economics is the reason you do not see more cellulose to ethanol systems around the world today. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: riored96 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 7:21 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story. Well, I guess I got fooled. Alcohol from cellulose, with an enzyme process, is not new. IMO, its just a cost issue. KA, I disagree about soil fertility. I don't see any reason why mineral residue could not be returned to the soil. Ethanol is just, carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. With that said, costs in the 'rest of world' should be lower than in the US. I still don't understand why this (cellulose to alcohol) isn't more widely used worldwide. RR --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello RR If this story is true, it would be of monumental importance. Billions of tons of this stuff (cellulose) must be produced yearly around the world, in association with food production. What is the holdup, with exploiting this technology? If India/China needs fuel for cars, here it is. The lack of press coverage, is disappointing and suspicious. In the US?? Well yes, excellent general statement, but you shouldn't be surprised. Anyway, two things about cellulose. Much of what would be available would be crop wastes, and that there might be billions of tons of it doesn't necessarily mean it's up for grabs. Crop wastes need to be returned to the soil if there's of be much of a future for crop production. Richer countries can postpone it a bit with chemical fertilisers, and end up with worse problems in the longer run, but poorer countries often can't even afford to do that. So endless supplies of ethanol fuel might have to bear the ever-soaring costs of denuded farmlands, and those costs tend to spill out well beyond the farm fence. Not worth it. It would need planned cellulose production, perhaps as a crop by-product, but not at the expense of soil fertility. Second, there's quite a lot of information here: Ethanol from cellulose http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose Best Keith RR --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have also been trying to keep half an eye on them (Iogen itself is not publicly traded, which makes this a bit of a challenge, even if some of its investors apparently are), and on Genencor (stock symbol GCOR here in the US), and although riored's question was blunt, it does sort of summarize my own standing question about a lot of companies, particularly in this field. This field I have labled as important because of the DOE's comments some years ago as to the economic importance of turning cellulosic matter into ethanol. According to them, such an advance was more or less necessary - the key - to making ethanol more sustainable and economically viable in the U.S. This was in response to many of the questions as to the pricing and volumes available for Ethanol. I do *not* think such an argument by them should be taken at face value without
Re: [biofuel] Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story.
Keith, No, I don't have a website. I am one of the old foggies who just keeps his head down working every day. :-) I do like your forum though. Art - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story. Hello Art Keith, I join your efforts! Excellent! I am the strongest proponent of returning biomass to soil as soil amendment. I began the world's largest composting program twelve years ago. Now it is returning 1.2 million tons per year of ag wastes back to farmland as soil amendment each year. You'll go straight to heaven. I've never stopped making compost in the last 24 years, no matter where I've been, even in a small 19th floor flat without a balcony in urban Hong Kong. (But I'm not sure I'll go straight to heaven!) Please consider that converting the carbon molecule in cellulose from a high grade ethanol feedstock to a lower grade soil amendment will work only if the ethanol wastes are taken back to the area where the crops were produced. Yes. We rant about the ridiculous food miles issue here every now and then, and more often about the need for localisation of both food and fuel production (closely related issues). The farmer enters an unspoken agreement with nature that, if a crop is produced, the residues must be put back into the soil to regenerate the soil. We are now in a society where wastes can be moved hundreds of miles from their production location and never make it back. Thousands of miles. Average distance from farm to supermarket in the US is more than a thouand miles, according to one estimate I saw. Imports aside. Landfills are a classic example. I am on a personal mission to recover organic wastes currently going into landfills first as biogas and return those residues to soil as soil amendment. Keep organics out of the landfill completely - they are a soil resource and a landfill is a needless waste of the product. Hear hear! Biogas biology has had a recent revolution making the economics much more favorable and the gas can easily be burned in stationary diesel engines to produce electricity and recoverable heat energy. I have a national model which takes each community water treatment biodigester and converts it into an improved biogas and soil amendment producer from biosolids and food wastes. Keep blowing the soil health/fertility/sustainability bugle and I will form up with you. Okay, good. I never stop blowing it, sounds like you don't either - and it's NOT off-topic on a biofuels list! But, people either get it or they don't, as you can see. Previous time I did it was over the fuel from pig manure thing, and got told I hadn't presented any scientific evidence. :-/ Liebig debunked himself more than a century ago, but it's still gospel, eh? Do you have a website Art? Best wishes Keith Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2004 2:29 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story. Hello RR If this story is true, it would be of monumental importance. Billions of tons of this stuff (cellulose) must be produced yearly around the world, in association with food production. What is the holdup, with exploiting this technology? If India/China needs fuel for cars, here it is. The lack of press coverage, is disappointing and suspicious. In the US?? Well yes, excellent general statement, but you shouldn't be surprised. Anyway, two things about cellulose. Much of what would be available would be crop wastes, and that there might be billions of tons of it doesn't necessarily mean it's up for grabs. Crop wastes need to be returned to the soil if there's of be much of a future for crop production. Richer countries can postpone it a bit with chemical fertilisers, and end up with worse problems in the longer run, but poorer countries often can't even afford to do that. So endless supplies of ethanol fuel might have to bear the ever-soaring costs of denuded farmlands, and those costs tend to spill out well beyond the farm fence. Not worth it. It would need planned cellulose production, perhaps as a crop by-product, but not at the expense of soil fertility. Second, there's quite a lot of information here: Ethanol from cellulose http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose Best Keith snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel
Re: [biofuel] Re: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story.
RR, Sorry to rain on your parade but the recent numbers that I read from as late as a year ago, when the costs of production include replacement cost of farm machinery and consumables, the equation is a break even at best but more likely still a loss. I am willing to listen but show me the data and the source. Also, what is the concentration of the 70 gallons of ethanol produced from the cellulose? That is, most likely, a theoretical number which is probably based on dilute solutions. One of the constraints on ethanol production is that as the concentration of alcohol increases the fermentation slows down. Advertisers of technology tout yields of dilute concentrations of ethanol - producers (who have to distill the dilute water solutions) push delivered cents per gallon costs of ethanol. The difference is quite wide and affects the bottom line harshly. What is the methanol from the products of hydrolysis statement? Are you speaking of converting the hydrolyzed biomass to methane biogas and catalytically converting that to methanol? I am looking forward to the education. Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 26, 2004 11:57 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story. Art, You should consider not using old numbers on energy used in ethanol production. It has been discussed several times in this forum how current, and more accurate, numbers show that producing ethanol, at least from corn, is energy positive, not energy negative. Not to mention the newer processes that include the corn stalk, which double the alcohol output. Not meant to start yet another dispute with regard to fuel from food, or sustainability needs of returning waste to the fields. From what I've read, one ton of waste paper (cellulose) can produce approximately 70 gallons of ethanol, compare this to the approximately 92 gallons from one ton of corn, I'd say it's pretty reasonable output. This doesn't include creating methanol from the waste product from the hydrolysis process, created earlier in the lignin/cellulose separation phase. Also, it seems that the problem is with producing workable enzymes to extract the cellulose from the lignin. I've seen a reference to 15 cents US, per gallon, for the enzyme costs (unsure of the date of that paper), but it sounds pretty darn cheap to me to produce ethanol from waste cellulose or wood products, for the enzymes that is. If the feedstock is free or nearly free...and I realize that's not the only step in the process, but it is the significant one in my view. Message: 21 Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 09:12:14 -0700 From: Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: Cellulose-Alcohol story. RR, If you do not see any reason why only mineral residues should be returned to soil, you do not understand how natural soil works. The carbon which is returned in the form of a soil amendment acts as food for the biology which converts soil minerals into plant available materials for growth. Otherwise all the material to be consumed by the plant would need to be already processed to plant available materials before the plant can use them. Depleted soils are those which have too little active biology present (organic matter) to do the processing and/or too little mineral matter to convert to plant available foods. Returning organic matter is the key to soil sustainability, not just minerals. One of the limiting factor in converting any organic material to alcohol is the cost of distillation of the alcohol from the water. Typically, alcohol made from cellulose is very low yielding and typically produces about a 2% alcohol product. Alcohol fermentation from corn or grain feedstocks produces an alcohol concentration of up to 10% or greater. Since the fossil fuels required to produce and distill a 10% alcohol solution is already greater than the energy it produces as alcohol, evaporating five times more water due to the low feedstock concentration would make the energy equation even more negative. The breakthrough would be if cellulose could produce higher concentrations of alcohol or a new low cost method of separating the alcohol from the water solution is developed or such. Plain poor economics is the reason you do not see more cellulose to ethanol systems around the world today. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
Investments actually Art, the winds do blow from east to west across the Atlantic at least at the latitude which carries dust from the Sahara to the Caribbean and northeast South America. Think Atlantic hurricanes which are spawned off the coast of Africa and move in a westerly direction to east coast of the US and caribbean islands. An interesting discussion of dust movement from east to west is in The Secret Life of dust by Hanna Holmes. Art Krenzel wrote: Derek, Unless the prevailing wind has reversed its course on your world, the wind blows FROM the Amazon TO the Sahara desert (unless it goes around the world). There would be alot of other deserving people the Sahara winds would cross before it got the Amazon that way around. I'm not saying the desert concept is worthless - I am saying that the concept is not practical or sustainable without an inordinate dependence upon alot of cheap energy. Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 2:34 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments Hi, I vaguely recall reading that a lot of the nutrients for the Amazon are carried by wind from the Sahara. Although a lot of the desert is 'just' sand, most of it has plenty of soil. If given a bit of water it blooms. It is amazing what all pops up once there is a bit of rain. I think we basically agree on the best way to grow food, etc. But, I don't think Brian's suggestion of investing in desert land and adapting it to future energy production is without merit either. Certainly I don't think it should be discounted out of hand as a worthless idea. Regards, Derek Derek, All the energy fuss doesn't cut ice. If it isn't sustainable, what is it? An experiment? How much of your wheat is grown using water produced by reverse osmosis? Would this be possible if the Saudi Arabian economy were not sustained by the sales of oil to the rest of the world? Try the energy experience in the Sudan economy perhaps or Yeman and see how far it goes. The biggest places that are exporting food today have natural water and soil. These has been the traditional basis for food production since the beginning of time. Not energy alone. Energy helps but if you have nothing to eat, all the energy in the world doesn't do you a bit of good. You don't farm in a desert because there is insufficient water or organic matter in the sand to make the system work. Hydroponics does not compare with soil produced food in quality or cost. As an experiment, it might work fine but to produce food for 4 billion people it quickly fails. The problem with viewing the problem from only an energy standpoint is the saying, to a man with a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail. Sustainability should be the watchword. Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:23 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments Hi, Unlimited energy leads to all other needs. The most essential raw product is energy. Once one has energy they can recycle water, make water, grow food in all sorts of ways, etc. I've lived in the desert for ten years. It was an eye opener to realize how dependent life in the desert is on energy, and how everything else pales. I live in Saudi...number one in the world at making potable water from the sea. They grow enough wheat to meet their own needs, and export the excess. Life is dependent on energy like nowhere else. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating this. I don't consider much this to be sustainable. But, I don't think it is wise to minimize the importance of energy as the fundamental building block under everything else. In the desert, it would be easily possible to harvest 50% of the incident light for electricity production and to farm with the remaining light. Brian is right on. The future energy production for the world could well come from worthless deserts, with a top layer of Photovoltaics and vast farms under the light collectors. The energy could possibly be exported by either microwaves or hydrogen pipelines. Regards
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
Derek, Unless the prevailing wind has reversed its course on your world, the wind blows FROM the Amazon TO the Sahara desert (unless it goes around the world). There would be alot of other deserving people the Sahara winds would cross before it got the Amazon that way around. I'm not saying the desert concept is worthless - I am saying that the concept is not practical or sustainable without an inordinate dependence upon alot of cheap energy. Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 2:34 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments Hi, I vaguely recall reading that a lot of the nutrients for the Amazon are carried by wind from the Sahara. Although a lot of the desert is 'just' sand, most of it has plenty of soil. If given a bit of water it blooms. It is amazing what all pops up once there is a bit of rain. I think we basically agree on the best way to grow food, etc. But, I don't think Brian's suggestion of investing in desert land and adapting it to future energy production is without merit either. Certainly I don't think it should be discounted out of hand as a worthless idea. Regards, Derek Derek, All the energy fuss doesn't cut ice. If it isn't sustainable, what is it? An experiment? How much of your wheat is grown using water produced by reverse osmosis? Would this be possible if the Saudi Arabian economy were not sustained by the sales of oil to the rest of the world? Try the energy experience in the Sudan economy perhaps or Yeman and see how far it goes. The biggest places that are exporting food today have natural water and soil. These has been the traditional basis for food production since the beginning of time. Not energy alone. Energy helps but if you have nothing to eat, all the energy in the world doesn't do you a bit of good. You don't farm in a desert because there is insufficient water or organic matter in the sand to make the system work. Hydroponics does not compare with soil produced food in quality or cost. As an experiment, it might work fine but to produce food for 4 billion people it quickly fails. The problem with viewing the problem from only an energy standpoint is the saying, to a man with a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail. Sustainability should be the watchword. Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:23 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments Hi, Unlimited energy leads to all other needs. The most essential raw product is energy. Once one has energy they can recycle water, make water, grow food in all sorts of ways, etc. I've lived in the desert for ten years. It was an eye opener to realize how dependent life in the desert is on energy, and how everything else pales. I live in Saudi...number one in the world at making potable water from the sea. They grow enough wheat to meet their own needs, and export the excess. Life is dependent on energy like nowhere else. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating this. I don't consider much this to be sustainable. But, I don't think it is wise to minimize the importance of energy as the fundamental building block under everything else. In the desert, it would be easily possible to harvest 50% of the incident light for electricity production and to farm with the remaining light. Brian is right on. The future energy production for the world could well come from worthless deserts, with a top layer of Photovoltaics and vast farms under the light collectors. The energy could possibly be exported by either microwaves or hydrogen pipelines. Regards, Derek Brian, Before you invest in worthless desert islands, you better make sure you can raise food on that island. Energy alone, whether hydrogen or electricity, makes a poor meal even for an energy guru. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
Bob, The PREVAILING winds do move from west to east in both hemispheres due to the rotation of the earth. Hurricanes, which contain a large amount of energy, can move in a variety of directions - especially near the equator. Note the following: http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/weather/A0849225.html trade winds, movement of air toward the equator, from the NE in the Northern Hemisphere and from the SE in the Southern Hemisphere. The trade winds originate on the equatorial sides of the horse latitudes, which are two belts of high air pressure, one lying between 25¡ and 30¡ north of the equator and the other lying between 25¡ and 30¡ south of it. The high air pressure in these belts forces air to move toward a belt of low air pressure along the equator called the doldrums. The air converging at the doldrums rises high over the earth, recirculates poleward, and sinks back toward the earth's surface in the region of the horse latitudes, thus completing a cycle. The air does not move directly north or south because it is deflected by the rotation of the earth. See wind; Coriolis effect. It is not a serious point however. The issue for me is trying to generate food in desert like conditions. You can do it - you can also push water up hill but it all takes an inordinate amount of cheap energy to make it work. The goal is to make the system sustainable which means, most likely, that you need to work with nature rather than against it. Art - Original Message - From: bob allen To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:51 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments actually Art, the winds do blow from east to west across the Atlantic at least at the latitude which carries dust from the Sahara to the Caribbean and northeast South America. Think Atlantic hurricanes which are spawned off the coast of Africa and move in a westerly direction to east coast of the US and caribbean islands. An interesting discussion of dust movement from east to west is in The Secret Life of dust by Hanna Holmes. Art Krenzel wrote: Derek, Unless the prevailing wind has reversed its course on your world, the wind blows FROM the Amazon TO the Sahara desert (unless it goes around the world). There would be alot of other deserving people the Sahara winds would cross before it got the Amazon that way around. I'm not saying the desert concept is worthless - I am saying that the concept is not practical or sustainable without an inordinate dependence upon alot of cheap energy. Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 2:34 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments Hi, I vaguely recall reading that a lot of the nutrients for the Amazon are carried by wind from the Sahara. Although a lot of the desert is 'just' sand, most of it has plenty of soil. If given a bit of water it blooms. It is amazing what all pops up once there is a bit of rain. I think we basically agree on the best way to grow food, etc. But, I don't think Brian's suggestion of investing in desert land and adapting it to future energy production is without merit either. Certainly I don't think it should be discounted out of hand as a worthless idea. Regards, Derek Derek, All the energy fuss doesn't cut ice. If it isn't sustainable, what is it? An experiment? How much of your wheat is grown using water produced by reverse osmosis? Would this be possible if the Saudi Arabian economy were not sustained by the sales of oil to the rest of the world? Try the energy experience in the Sudan economy perhaps or Yeman and see how far it goes. The biggest places that are exporting food today have natural water and soil. These has been the traditional basis for food production since the beginning of time. Not energy alone. Energy helps but if you have nothing to eat, all the energy in the world doesn't do you a bit of good. You don't farm in a desert because there is insufficient water or organic matter in the sand to make the system work. Hydroponics does not compare with soil produced food in quality or cost. As an experiment, it might work fine but to produce food for 4 billion people it quickly fails. The problem with viewing the problem from only an energy standpoint is the saying, to a man with a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail. Sustainability should be the watchword. Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
Brian, Before you invest in worthless desert islands, you better make sure you can raise food on that island. Energy alone, whether hydrogen or electricity, makes a poor meal even for an energy guru. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Brian To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:01 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments If I had real money to invest, I'd be buying up worthless desert land. Between solar and wind technology, there is enough energy being wasted in the desert to do quite a bit of hydrogen conversion for fuel cell cars, if this technology ever goes anywhere. At least that's my bright idea of the past year or so. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone here have any ideas for investments in stocks (anywhere in the world... does *not* have to be North America) that have a good sustainable technology or energy technology or conservation angle? I am working on a project to collect and refine some ideas in this area, and there are a couple of roadblocks I've run into. For example, I was trying to think of a way, any way at all, to invest in the idea of energy conservation in the general realm of locally-grown locally-consumed low-input high-output foods. But how to do this? I started tossing around the idea of Whole Foods (WFMI on yahoo U.S. stock boards) just because on balance one might end up shopping there for foods that have been grown according to 'some' conservationist principles, lower Petroleum input, etc. If one buys eggs produced from range fed chickens, at least that's something. But putting aside that dissatisfying compromise, if anyone has any ideas, including 'outside the box' ideas of companies you've seen practicing or selling some offbeat sustainable idea or product, .. I'd be curious to hear it. We all know about some of the mainstream investments, some of the more high-profile much-discussed Hydrogen Fuel Cell companies, and once in awhile we've tossed around biofuel investment ideas (although my list is short or nonexistent, unless I include non-pure-plays), but I feel certain that around the world there must be a few stocks here and there that would be worth considering for this project. Will post to the evworld.com and biofuel discussion groups. Am particularly keen to take advantage of the international aspect of these discussion groups, in case there is someone in Europe or Asia who might have some ideas for me. For example, it's not much-discussed here in the States, but one of the only pure-plays I've found in Solar Photovoltaics is SWVG.F on yahoo (the 'F' standing for the Frankfurt exchange) apparently a solar company that can be researched at solarworld.de. I'm not recommending them as an investment, just pointing out that if I go outside of North America, there are some interesting companies to be researched. I've particularly had a lot of trouble with Japan, in part due to symbol-conventions, and in part due to the more involved hard-to-follow company partnerships. And once I determine that a company has a partial involvement in an industry, I like to try to read their reports and nail down what percentage of their business is involved, and this seems harder for some reason with Japanese companies.One minor example I guess would be Nippon-Chemi-Con (Yahoo gives some numerical symbol, don't have it handy) which does make capacitors and other electronics for auto and other industries. So: yes, they do make a sort of ultracapacitor, though it's hard to research them the way I might with another company, and nail down what percentage of their business seems committed to progressive technologies in this area. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon
Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments
Derek, All the energy fuss doesn't cut ice. If it isn't sustainable, what is it? An experiment? How much of your wheat is grown using water produced by reverse osmosis? Would this be possible if the Saudi Arabian economy were not sustained by the sales of oil to the rest of the world? Try the energy experience in the Sudan economy perhaps or Yeman and see how far it goes. The biggest places that are exporting food today have natural water and soil. These has been the traditional basis for food production since the beginning of time. Not energy alone. Energy helps but if you have nothing to eat, all the energy in the world doesn't do you a bit of good. You don't farm in a desert because there is insufficient water or organic matter in the sand to make the system work. Hydroponics does not compare with soil produced food in quality or cost. As an experiment, it might work fine but to produce food for 4 billion people it quickly fails. The problem with viewing the problem from only an energy standpoint is the saying, to a man with a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail. Sustainability should be the watchword. Art - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:23 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments Hi, Unlimited energy leads to all other needs. The most essential raw product is energy. Once one has energy they can recycle water, make water, grow food in all sorts of ways, etc. I've lived in the desert for ten years. It was an eye opener to realize how dependent life in the desert is on energy, and how everything else pales. I live in Saudi...number one in the world at making potable water from the sea. They grow enough wheat to meet their own needs, and export the excess. Life is dependent on energy like nowhere else. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not advocating this. I don't consider much this to be sustainable. But, I don't think it is wise to minimize the importance of energy as the fundamental building block under everything else. In the desert, it would be easily possible to harvest 50% of the incident light for electricity production and to farm with the remaining light. Brian is right on. The future energy production for the world could well come from worthless deserts, with a top layer of Photovoltaics and vast farms under the light collectors. The energy could possibly be exported by either microwaves or hydrogen pipelines. Regards, Derek Brian, Before you invest in worthless desert islands, you better make sure you can raise food on that island. Energy alone, whether hydrogen or electricity, makes a poor meal even for an energy guru. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Brian To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:01 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: OT: Worldwide Publicly Traded Sustainable Technology or Conservation Investments If I had real money to invest, I'd be buying up worthless desert land. Between solar and wind technology, there is enough energy being wasted in the desert to do quite a bit of hydrogen conversion for fuel cell cars, if this technology ever goes anywhere. At least that's my bright idea of the past year or so. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone here have any ideas for investments in stocks (anywhere in the world... does *not* have to be North America) that have a good sustainable technology or energy technology or conservation angle? I am working on a project to collect and refine some ideas in this area, and there are a couple of roadblocks I've run into. For example, I was trying to think of a way, any way at all, to invest in the idea of energy conservation in the general realm of locally-grown locally-consumed low-input high-output foods. But how to do this? I started tossing around the idea of Whole Foods (WFMI on yahoo U.S. stock boards) just because on balance one might end up shopping there for foods that have been grown according to 'some' conservationist principles, lower Petroleum input, etc. If one buys eggs produced from range fed chickens, at least that's something. But putting aside that dissatisfying compromise, if anyone has any ideas, including 'outside the box' ideas of companies you've seen practicing or selling some offbeat sustainable idea or product, .. I'd be curious to hear it. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http
Re: [biofuel] Re: Biogas was Rejoining list with a question
Kim, Here is an outline from a friend of mine in India where biogas technology is quite standard. 1 Kg of starch or sugar produces about 400 liters of high quality biogas in about 8 hours which should be sufficient to cook your meals for the next day. It may require more manure by weight depending upon the volatile solids in the manure. The system is pressurized by the weight of the top drum which serves as a gas holder. The biogas plant is a standard, moving dome type of a biogas plant. It can be fabricated, using two barrels, both of about 200 liter capacity. Such barrels are available in different sizes, being used as domestic water tanks. One of the barrels should have a slightly smaller diameter than the other, so that it can telescope into the broader barrel. One end of both the barrels is cut open. The broader barrel is kept on the ground with the open end pointing upwards. This barrels serves to hold the fermenting liquid.The narrower barrel is slid into the steel barrel with its open end pointing downwards. It serves as the gas holder. If two such barrels are not available, one can construct the broader container out of bricks and cement mortar. The fermenter barrel is provided with an L shaped inlet pipe, that is 5 cm wide. The horizontal arm of the L should be about 40 cm long and the vertical arm should be 100 cm long. It requires some plumbing skill to fit the inlet pipe. For fitting the inlet pipe, a hole of adequate diameter is cut into the vertical side of the barrel, as near the base as possible. The outer barrel is also provided with an outlet pipe near its top end, through which the effluent slurry can flow out. The inner barrel, that serves as the gas holder, is provided with a gas tap, fitted at the topmost part of the barrel. The gas is supplied to the burner through this tap. The gas holder barrel is weighed down by means of a sack filled with sand or any other material, weighing about 20 kg. In this way, the gas is provided to the burner under a certain constant pressure. In India, one can buy a special domestic biogas burner for this gas, but if that is not available, one can use an LPG burner, with the pin-hole nipple removed. To start the system, an aqueous slurry made of about 200 litres of water, about 10 kg cattle dung and about 200 grams of flour of any starchy material, is poured into the system through the inlet pipe. The gas cock of the gas holder barrel is kept open, while filling the slurry. After filling the slurry, the gas tap is closed. The fermentation process produces gas which will accumulate in the gas holder and lift it up. Test this gas for its combustibility. It may happen, that the gas produced during the first few days does not burn. Just let it exhaust by opening the gas tap so that the gas holder barrel sinks back into the outer barrel. But then do not forget to close the gas tap. Add daily about 200 g of flour, after mixing it with about a litre of water, to the fermenter, through the inlet pipe. Use a plunger to push the flour slurry into the barrel. Otherwise it would remain in the inlet pipe and ferment inside the pipe. Once the system starts to produce combustible gas, increase the amount of flour to daily 500 grams. Flour always contains a small quantity of protein, which gives rise to a small amount of H2S and NH3, which produce foul odour. Therefore the gas plant cannot be kept inside an unventilated kitchen. One should keep it outside the house, just beneath the kitchen window, and take the gas into the kitchen by means of a rubber pipe. There was a comment about the amount of methane produced by the system. It is right that one should get about 400 litres of methane from 1 kg starch or sugar, but the astonishing thing was that the gas that one obtained from this system consisted of almost pure methane. What happens to the carbon dioxide? I assume that it is dissolved in water and just diffuses out of the system. Have fun but just don't blow yourself up. :-) Art Krenzel - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Biogas was Rejoining list with a question I thank you for the offer, but at this time I think it is too large a capacity. While I do have 2 cows, they are pastured at all times, so collecting their dung is not convenient. We do have rabbits, [At present 30, but this changes constantly,]humans [2] and pigs [5] that the dung is easy to collect. I am hoping to create a small system that I can use to cook with in the summer and to learn on. When I find out how well the system works with our lives, then I will be looking at a larger system that can generate electricity. If I can eliminate my AC bill in the summer, the system could pay for itself fairly quickly. Bright Blessings, Kim At 01:12 PM 4/15/2004, you wrote: Kim, Not much on this link
Re: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question
Luis, Thank you for your kind words, sir. I feel that I have found a kindred spirit out there in the real world. From your address, I can tell that you are most likely deeply involved in bagasse recovery efforts. What are you doing now and where are you headed in handling bagasse after the sugar has been removed? The sugar industry has been successful at combusting bagasse in boilers as an energy source. How do you handle the bagasse which has been contaminated with dirt, rocks, etc? How do you handle spend sugar liquors? What are the BOD content of those liquids being discharged from the plant? Looking forward to your reply. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Contactos Mundiales To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 6:21 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question Mr. Art Krenzel Phoenix Technologies Dear Art: I could not agree more with your statements of fact in regards to biodigestion. Please continue sharing your knowledge and experience with us. With best regards, Luis R. Calzadilla VP Operations Fundacin Sugar Cane Research Org. Cali, Colombia Tel (572) 893-6627 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question Kim, When you burn manure you remove the organic matter from the final product and retain only the minerals which can help the soil as an oxidized water soluble fertilizer. You, since you are operating sustainably, want to retain the organic matter as a component of your soil system I would suspect. I would suggest that you consider generating biogas using an anaerobic digester to reduce the carbon content by 35 - 50% into biogas containing 60-65% methane and then recover the remainder of the carbon solids as compost for your soil. Soil organic matter is absolutely required to farm sustainability. This system would allow you to recover energy from the manure in sealed tanks when the odor potential is highest and compost the remainder of the solids aerobically into a soil conditioner. You also have water to handle which has a very high nutrient content as a supplemental fertilizer and can be used in irrigation. Work with nature at each level and benefit multiple times. There has been an absolute revolution in anaerobic digestion over the past five years. The tankage requirement has dropped to 1/4 the gallons required only five years ago. The process which previously required 30 - 40 days now can be done in 8 - 10 days. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question
Kim, When you burn manure you remove the organic matter from the final product and retain only the minerals which can help the soil as an oxidized water soluble fertilizer. You, since you are operating sustainably, want to retain the organic matter as a component of your soil system I would suspect. I would suggest that you consider generating biogas using an anaerobic digester to reduce the carbon content by 35 - 50% into biogas containing 60-65% methane and then recover the remainder of the carbon solids as compost for your soil. Soil organic matter is absolutely required to farm sustainability. This system would allow you to recover energy from the manure in sealed tanks when the odor potential is highest and compost the remainder of the solids aerobically into a soil conditioner. You also have water to handle which has a very high nutrient content as a supplemental fertilizer and can be used in irrigation. Work with nature at each level and benefit multiple times. There has been an absolute revolution in anaerobic digestion over the past five years. The tankage requirement has dropped to 1/4 the gallons required only five years ago. The process which previously required 30 - 40 days now can be done in 8 - 10 days. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Kim Garth Travis To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 7:55 AM Subject: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question Greetings, I was a member of this list for several years, but quit to have time to learn other things. I hope all the regulars are doing well, and I hope to get to know all the new people. My husband and I own 20 acres in Texas and we are trying to live and farm sustainably. For now we are on the grid, but hope to change that one day. We practise alternative building, such as paper adobe and cordwood. The question: This months issue of Backwoods Home Magazine has an article, by Rev. J.D. Hooker, on burning manure. It states that they get 'somewhat greater heating value than seasoned hardwood.'By using the ashes in the garden, after several years of application have reach a rate of 'more than 40% higher' than the garden with either commercial fertilizer or spread manure. He did not compare it to composted manure, so much testing of his 'findings' still needs to be done. If one can get both heat and fertilizer out of manure, then one could use the manure to fire a wood fuel steam generator and be totally sustainable. The author states he got the idea from a friend from Thailand. There are no flaws mentioned in the article, and the article is only about heat and the garden. The steam generator is my idea. This seems to easy and too perfect, what is the flaw that I have missed? Bright Blessings, Kim Keith, I told you I would be back grin Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Fw: [GASL] Biomass Cars
There is an entire listserve devoted to wood gas production which can be used to operate engines. I have attached a recent message outlining some of their sources of information for you. Wood alcohol is produced by the destructive distillation of wood products. Methanol comes off at a temperature lower than water so the vapor is collected and condensed. The yield of methanol is poor and the quality varied with the operator. Methanol is produced as a byproduct of several chemical processes and from natural gas today. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: TBReed [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 4:43 AM Subject: Re: [GASL] Biomass Cars Dear All: Most of the experience that Lewis Smith refers to below is stored in many books published and available at the BEF website (www.woodgas.com) such as: Gengas: The Swedish Classic on Wood Fueled Vehicles (Written in 1950 by the Swedish Royal Academy and translated by NREL in 1978, The Old Testament of woodgas vehicles) Biomass Downdraft Gasifier Engine System Handbook (The New Testament, of woodgas vehicles and power generation by T. Reed and Agua Das, written for the National Renewable Energy Laboratory ~1985) Producer Gas: Another Fuel for Motor Transport (Written by a blue ribbon team for the National Acadamy of Sciences) The PEGASUS UNIT: The Lost Art of Driving without Gasoline (Petroleum/Gasoline Substitue Systems, with detailed plans for making a WWII type gasifier) Construction of a Simplified Wood Gas Generator (Written by H. LaFontaine for the Federal Emergency Management Authority, FEMA and describing construction of a vehicle gasifierusing the new stratified downdraft gasifier for use on tractors and cars) and some other publications. So there is no excuse for not starting a modern woodgas car today. Tom Reed THe Biomass Energy Foundation - Original Message - From: Lewis L. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [GASL] Biomass Cars toBioenergy Listfrom Lewis L. Smith Ref Tom Reed's posting of 06 Apr above subject. Very interesting idea. During WW II, biomass cars were also used in Europe and Paraguay, among other places. So there is a lot of experience, if we can only find where it is stored. [Probably mostly in people's heads.] I strongly recommend wood pellets. Pelletizing grasses and leaves is hard on the pelletizing dies, because of the amount of dirt which inevitably attaches to this kind of vegetation. And one doesn't want to end up washing the pelletizer feed, as they used to do in Hawaii with cane harvested with a push rake. Cordially. End. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
