subject:"RE\: \[SWCollect\] Modern classics"

I don't have more specific data handy (out of town right now), but here is a breakdown 
of UK sales across all platforms:

1 - NEED FOR SPEED: UNDERGROUND 
2 - GRAND THEFT AUTO: DOUBLE PACK 
3 - THE SIMPSONS: HIT & RUN 
4 - FIFA 2004 
5 - LORD OF THE RINGS: RETURN OF THE KING 
6 - NORTON INTERNET SECURITY 2004 
7 - THE SIMS: BUSTIN' 
8 - MEDAL OF HONOR: RISING SUN
9 - TONY HAWK'S UNDERGROUND 
10 - TIGER WOODS PGA TOUR 2004

Note that EA has 6 of the top 10 slots.  Hey I love big boxes too and can make lots of 
comments about game quality, but it isn't hurting EA's sales in the least.  Sorry to 
be the messenger...don't shoot me.

No argument here that the console business is doing much better than the PC business 
right now.   There are always exceptions (Sims, Blizzard games, etc.), but it will 
likely stay this way until closer to the end of this console cycle, and may never end.


Hugh

-Original Message-
From: Marco Thorek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Jan 21, 2004 11:09 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

(Darn, my reply first landed at Hugh's personal address, sorry about
that)

IMHO opinion that's because of console sales. Look at the numbers the PC
version of a game sells.

It is because of this that PC development is becoming a mere
afterthought.

Marco


[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
> 
> EA is doing better every year financially (including Europe).  If DVD cases are a 
> mistake, there is no evidence yet.
> 
> Hugh
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Marco Thorek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Jan 20, 2004 5:21 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics
> 
> Jim Leonard schrieb:
> >
> > It's not the calculators:  It's what makes money.  You shouldn't be scared
> > that accountants and suits are ruining the industry; instead, you should be
> > scared that the core sales of most computer and console gaming are the way
> > they are.  It is a hard pill to swallow that adventure games simply don't sell
> > enough units to make a profit.
> 
> True. It's only that once upon a time the profit didn't matter as much.
> You could singlehandedly or in a duo write a game and find a publisher
> easy enough, even if your game was totally obscure. Nowadays profit is
> the prime directive and who knows better about profits than the suits?
> 
> Those managers sure know a thing about finances, but apparently not much
> about how the creative side of this industry works. For example, whoever
> adviced EA to ship games in DVD cases immediately cut down production
> costs, but failed to realize it'll lower the number of units sold, as
> there won't be much left that distinguishes a bought game from a warez
> version.
> 
> It is the same as with the music industry: Some managers found that
> instead of expensive talent scouting and sponsoring bands that might
> fail, they should simply manufacture boy- and girlgroups, who
> specifically cater to the target audience that spends the most money on
> its idols and music: teenagers. Now the music industry blames P2P for
> the slump in music sales, instead of realizing we had one too many
> Boyzone, Westlife, Backstreet Boys, N'Sync et. al., and no real talent
> in the charts for some time. Imagine Meat Loaf trying to get a record
> contract these days.
> 
> > There are a *few* sequels, maybe 5 a year, that are indeed worth playing.  I
> > just recently finished Ratchet and Clank: Going Commando, and it was a
> > surprisingly deep game with a lot of replay value.  But that is the exception.
> 
> True again. What also irks me as a PC gamer these days is that we are
> mostly given gruesome console ports. Most recent example there being
> "Deux Ex: Invisible War." The game may be perfect for the Xbox and its
> audience, on the PC the graphics, the simplified story and character
> generation, the idiotic UI and the lack of any depth is horrifying.
> 
> Marco
> 
> --
> This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
> the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
> Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
> 
> --
> This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
> the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
> Archives are available at: http:

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Of course you can. There are lots of criteria you can judge mistakes by, but in the games industry, number of units sold is the most common and least subjective method. It is especially important since it usually determines if you get to continue making games in the future.
Hugh-Original Message- From: Pedro Quaresma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Jan 21, 2004 9:10 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics Hugh, I understood the context... I just don't think you can quite compare "making more/less money" and "being a mistake" :)I wasn't commenting on quality either 0:) Pedro --Pedro R. QuaresmaSalvador Caetano IMVTDiv. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information DivisionAdministração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / Lotus Notes Administration and Development[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)Toyota Prius '01, Aqua Ice Opalescent, 37K km., "Esperanza"'People don't quit playing because they grow old. They grow old because they quit playing.' - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED] A/C: Ref: cc: (bcc: Pedro Quaresma/SCAETANO) Assunto: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

[EMAIL PROTECTED] 21-01-2004 16:40

Solicita-se resposta a hughfalk
Pedro, you misunderstood. I was commenting on Marco's statement: "but failed to realize it'll lower the number of units sold, asthere won't be much left that distinguishes a bought game from a warezversion." Marco was saying that DVD cases would adversely affect the number of units sold. My point is that they're selling more units than ever. I wasn't commenting on quality. Hugh-----Original Message- From: Pedro Quaresma Sent: Jan 21, 2004 8:11 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics Hugh Falk wrote: >EA is doing better every year financially (including Europe). If DVD cases are a mistake, there is no evidence >yetSorry, but that's not a valid point Let's replace some words in the sentence above: McDonalds is doing better every year financially (including Europe). If burgers-made-of-stuff-that's-not-quite-beef are a mistake, there is no evidence yet.Does that sound a valid point to you? --Pedro R. QuaresmaSalvador Caetano IMVTDiv. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information DivisionAdministração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / Lotus Notes Administration and Development[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)Toyota Prius '01, Aqua Ice Opalescent, 37K km., "Esperanza"'People don't quit playing because they grow old. They grow old because they quit playing.' - Oliver Wendell Holmes ToyotaShopping - A sua Loja Toyota Onlinehttp://www.toyota.pt -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archivecom/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ ToyotaShopping - A sua Loja Toyota Onlinehttp://www.toyota.pt

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-21 Thread Marco Thorek

(Darn, my reply first landed at Hugh's personal address, sorry about
that)

IMHO opinion that's because of console sales. Look at the numbers the PC
version of a game sells.

It is because of this that PC development is becoming a mere
afterthought.

Marco


[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
> 
> EA is doing better every year financially (including Europe).  If DVD cases are a 
> mistake, there is no evidence yet.
> 
> Hugh
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Marco Thorek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Jan 20, 2004 5:21 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics
> 
> Jim Leonard schrieb:
> >
> > It's not the calculators:  It's what makes money.  You shouldn't be scared
> > that accountants and suits are ruining the industry; instead, you should be
> > scared that the core sales of most computer and console gaming are the way
> > they are.  It is a hard pill to swallow that adventure games simply don't sell
> > enough units to make a profit.
> 
> True. It's only that once upon a time the profit didn't matter as much.
> You could singlehandedly or in a duo write a game and find a publisher
> easy enough, even if your game was totally obscure. Nowadays profit is
> the prime directive and who knows better about profits than the suits?
> 
> Those managers sure know a thing about finances, but apparently not much
> about how the creative side of this industry works. For example, whoever
> adviced EA to ship games in DVD cases immediately cut down production
> costs, but failed to realize it'll lower the number of units sold, as
> there won't be much left that distinguishes a bought game from a warez
> version.
> 
> It is the same as with the music industry: Some managers found that
> instead of expensive talent scouting and sponsoring bands that might
> fail, they should simply manufacture boy- and girlgroups, who
> specifically cater to the target audience that spends the most money on
> its idols and music: teenagers. Now the music industry blames P2P for
> the slump in music sales, instead of realizing we had one too many
> Boyzone, Westlife, Backstreet Boys, N'Sync et. al., and no real talent
> in the charts for some time. Imagine Meat Loaf trying to get a record
> contract these days.
> 
> > There are a *few* sequels, maybe 5 a year, that are indeed worth playing.  I
> > just recently finished Ratchet and Clank: Going Commando, and it was a
> > surprisingly deep game with a lot of replay value.  But that is the exception.
> 
> True again. What also irks me as a PC gamer these days is that we are
> mostly given gruesome console ports. Most recent example there being
> "Deux Ex: Invisible War." The game may be perfect for the Xbox and its
> audience, on the PC the graphics, the simplified story and character
> generation, the idiotic UI and the lack of any depth is horrifying.
> 
> Marco
> 
> --
> This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
> the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
> Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
> 
> --
> This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
> the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
> Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-21 Thread Marco Thorek

Jim Leonard schrieb:
> 
> > True again. What also irks me as a PC gamer these days is that we are
> > mostly given gruesome console ports. Most recent example there being
> > "Deux Ex: Invisible War." The game may be perfect for the Xbox and its
> > audience, on the PC the graphics, the simplified story and character
> > generation, the idiotic UI and the lack of any depth is horrifying.
> 
> Don't say that!  I was so looking forward to playing the sequel after having
> finished the original twice...

I have to disappoint both you and Dan. It is all what a console game
probably should be, but not much of what we hoped for in a Deus Ex
sequel.

But you should try it yourself; perhaps it's just me who found it too
"consolish."

Marco

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-21 Thread Pedro Quaresma


Hugh,

I understood the context... I just don't think you can quite compare "making more/less money" and "being a mistake" :)

I wasn't commenting on quality either 0:)

Pedro

--
Pedro R. Quaresma
Salvador Caetano IMVT
Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division
Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / 
Lotus Notes Administration and Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)

Toyota Prius '01, Aqua Ice Opalescent, 37K km., "Esperanza"
 
'People don't quit playing because they grow old. They grow old because they quit playing.' - Oliver Wendell Holmes









                     

        
Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
A/C: 
Ref: 
cc: (bcc: Pedro Quaresma/SCAETANO)
Assunto: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics


[EMAIL PROTECTED]
21-01-2004 16:40


Solicita-se resposta a hughfalk


Pedro, you misunderstood.  I was commenting on Marco's statement:
 
"but failed to realize it'll lower the number of units sold, as
there won't be much left that distinguishes a bought game from a warez
version."
 
Marco was saying that DVD cases would adversely affect the number of units sold.  My point is that they're selling more units than ever.  I wasn't commenting on quality.
 
Hugh



-Original Message- 
From: Pedro Quaresma 
Sent: Jan 21, 2004 8:11 AM 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics 


Hugh Falk wrote: 
>EA is doing better every year financially (including Europe).  If DVD cases are a mistake, there is no evidence >yet

Sorry, but that's not a valid point Let's replace some words in the sentence above: 

McDonalds is doing better every year financially (including Europe).  If burgers-made-of-stuff-that's-not-quite-beef are a mistake, there is no evidence yet.

Does that sound a valid point to you? 



--
Pedro R. Quaresma
Salvador Caetano IMVT
Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division
Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / 
Lotus Notes Administration and Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)

Toyota Prius '01, Aqua Ice Opalescent, 37K km., "Esperanza"

'People don't quit playing because they grow old. They grow old because they quit playing.' - Oliver Wendell Holmes 




ToyotaShopping - A sua Loja Toyota Online
http://www.toyota.pt
-- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ 
 




ToyotaShopping - A sua Loja Toyota Online
http://www.toyota.pt

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Pedro, you misunderstood. I was commenting on Marco's statement:
"but failed to realize it'll lower the number of units sold, asthere won't be much left that distinguishes a bought game from a warezversion."
Marco was saying that DVD cases would adversely affect the number of units sold. My point is that they're selling more units than ever. I wasn't commenting on quality.
Hugh-Original Message- From: Pedro Quaresma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Jan 21, 2004 8:11 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics Hugh Falk wrote: >EA is doing better every year financially (including Europe). If DVD cases are a mistake, there is no evidence >yetSorry, but that's not a valid point Let's replace some words in the sentence above: McDonalds is doing better every year financially (including Europe). If burgers-made-of-stuff-that's-not-quite-beef are a mistake, there is no evidence yet.Does that sound a valid point to you? --Pedro R. QuaresmaSalvador Caetano IMVTDiv. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information DivisionAdministração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / Lotus Notes Administration and Development[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)Toyota Prius '01, Aqua Ice Opalescent, 37K km., "Esperanza"'People don't quit playing because they grow old. They grow old because they quit playing.' - Oliver Wendell Holmes ToyotaShopping - A sua Loja Toyota Onlinehttp://www.toyota.pt

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-21 Thread Pedro Quaresma


Hugh Falk wrote:
>EA is doing better every year financially (including Europe).  If DVD cases are a mistake, there is no evidence >yet.

Sorry, but that's not a valid point Let's replace some words in the sentence above:

McDonalds is doing better every year financially (including Europe).  If burgers-made-of-stuff-that's-not-quite-beef are a mistake, there is no evidence yet.

Does that sound a valid point to you?



--
Pedro R. Quaresma
Salvador Caetano IMVT
Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division
Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / 
Lotus Notes Administration and Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)

Toyota Prius '01, Aqua Ice Opalescent, 37K km., "Esperanza"
 
'People don't quit playing because they grow old. They grow old because they quit playing.' - Oliver Wendell Holmes 




ToyotaShopping - A sua Loja Toyota Online
http://www.toyota.pt

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

EA is doing better every year financially (including Europe).  If DVD cases are a 
mistake, there is no evidence yet.

Hugh

-Original Message-
From: Marco Thorek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Jan 20, 2004 5:21 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Jim Leonard schrieb:
> 
> It's not the calculators:  It's what makes money.  You shouldn't be scared
> that accountants and suits are ruining the industry; instead, you should be
> scared that the core sales of most computer and console gaming are the way
> they are.  It is a hard pill to swallow that adventure games simply don't sell
> enough units to make a profit.

True. It's only that once upon a time the profit didn't matter as much.
You could singlehandedly or in a duo write a game and find a publisher
easy enough, even if your game was totally obscure. Nowadays profit is
the prime directive and who knows better about profits than the suits?

Those managers sure know a thing about finances, but apparently not much
about how the creative side of this industry works. For example, whoever
adviced EA to ship games in DVD cases immediately cut down production
costs, but failed to realize it'll lower the number of units sold, as
there won't be much left that distinguishes a bought game from a warez
version.

It is the same as with the music industry: Some managers found that
instead of expensive talent scouting and sponsoring bands that might
fail, they should simply manufacture boy- and girlgroups, who
specifically cater to the target audience that spends the most money on
its idols and music: teenagers. Now the music industry blames P2P for
the slump in music sales, instead of realizing we had one too many
Boyzone, Westlife, Backstreet Boys, N'Sync et. al., and no real talent
in the charts for some time. Imagine Meat Loaf trying to get a record
contract these days.

> There are a *few* sequels, maybe 5 a year, that are indeed worth playing.  I
> just recently finished Ratchet and Clank: Going Commando, and it was a
> surprisingly deep game with a lot of replay value.  But that is the exception.

True again. What also irks me as a PC gamer these days is that we are
mostly given gruesome console ports. Most recent example there being
"Deux Ex: Invisible War." The game may be perfect for the Xbox and its
audience, on the PC the graphics, the simplified story and character
generation, the idiotic UI and the lack of any depth is horrifying.

Marco

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-20 Thread Jim Leonard

Marco Thorek wrote:

True. It's only that once upon a time the profit didn't matter as much.
Yes, but the market was completely different then.  There's an interview with 
Ken Williams on the Roberta Williams collection where he says something to the 
effect of "In the old days, we all went on picnics and canoe trips together. 
But today, [1995] it's considered a smash success if you have 1% market 
share."  My point is that up to 1985, most games sold well because the market 
was open.  1985-1993 saw things get crowded, and after that it all went downhill.

You could singlehandedly or in a duo write a game and find a publisher
easy enough, even if your game was totally obscure. Nowadays profit is
the prime directive and who knows better about profits than the suits?
Pretty much.  The only way to make money on games nowadays is to have a 
runaway shareware hit, and I haven't seen one in a while.  Roller Coaster 
Tycoon is probably the last "one man wonder" game we will see in our lifetimes 
that makes a profit.

Those managers sure know a thing about finances, but apparently not much
about how the creative side of this industry works. For example, whoever
adviced EA to ship games in DVD cases immediately cut down production
costs, but failed to realize it'll lower the number of units sold, as
there won't be much left that distinguishes a bought game from a warez
version.
That is only true in your country.  Here in the US they still ship in boxes 
(small boxes, but they're still boxes :)

Boyzone, Westlife, Backstreet Boys, N'Sync et. al., and no real talent
in the charts for some time. Imagine Meat Loaf trying to get a record
contract these days.
I'm not a Meatloaf fan so that was a bad example :) but I understand completely.

There are a *few* sequels, maybe 5 a year, that are indeed worth playing.  I
just recently finished Ratchet and Clank: Going Commando, and it was a
surprisingly deep game with a lot of replay value.  But that is the exception.
True again. What also irks me as a PC gamer these days is that we are
mostly given gruesome console ports. Most recent example there being
"Deux Ex: Invisible War." The game may be perfect for the Xbox and its
audience, on the PC the graphics, the simplified story and character
generation, the idiotic UI and the lack of any depth is horrifying.
Don't say that!  I was so looking forward to playing the sequel after having 
finished the original twice...
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-20 Thread Dan Chisarick

The fortunate upside is that the Internet  makes self-publication a 
possibility.  I'm not sure how many people can make a living selling 
games online, but I imagine Malinche does OK for itself.  Every now and 
then someone tries remaking a classic, but with a little 
'modernization' that makes it all but unrecognizable from the original. 
 It probably doesn't sell and they go back to the template that makes 
bucks, just like most movies.

Actually I take that back.  Garage games has a pretty good model.  $100 
for the source for a 3D engine, and I believe they'll help you market 
your finished title for a percentage.  Anyway, with a fairly low 
barrier to entry (free code, tools, cheap hardware and excessive 
documentation) compared to days gone by, small operations probably have 
a better chance now than before, despite the staggering cost of making 
a 'modern' game.

As for Deus Ex: Invisible War, I loved the first one.  Please don't 
tell me they console-ized the sequel.  I suspect that Thief III, if it 
comes out, may suffer the same fate.

On Jan 20, 2004, at 8:21 PM, Marco Thorek wrote:

Jim Leonard schrieb:
It's not the calculators:  It's what makes money.  You shouldn't be 
scared
that accountants and suits are ruining the industry; instead, you 
should be
scared that the core sales of most computer and console gaming are 
the way
they are.  It is a hard pill to swallow that adventure games simply 
don't sell
enough units to make a profit.
True. It's only that once upon a time the profit didn't matter as much.
You could singlehandedly or in a duo write a game and find a publisher
easy enough, even if your game was totally obscure. Nowadays profit is
the prime directive and who knows better about profits than the suits?
Those managers sure know a thing about finances, but apparently not 
much
about how the creative side of this industry works. For example, 
whoever
adviced EA to ship games in DVD cases immediately cut down production
costs, but failed to realize it'll lower the number of units sold, as
there won't be much left that distinguishes a bought game from a warez
version.

It is the same as with the music industry: Some managers found that
instead of expensive talent scouting and sponsoring bands that might
fail, they should simply manufacture boy- and girlgroups, who
specifically cater to the target audience that spends the most money on
its idols and music: teenagers. Now the music industry blames P2P for
the slump in music sales, instead of realizing we had one too many
Boyzone, Westlife, Backstreet Boys, N'Sync et. al., and no real talent
in the charts for some time. Imagine Meat Loaf trying to get a record
contract these days.
There are a *few* sequels, maybe 5 a year, that are indeed worth 
playing.  I
just recently finished Ratchet and Clank: Going Commando, and it was a
surprisingly deep game with a lot of replay value.  But that is the 
exception.
True again. What also irks me as a PC gamer these days is that we are
mostly given gruesome console ports. Most recent example there being
"Deux Ex: Invisible War." The game may be perfect for the Xbox and its
audience, on the PC the graphics, the simplified story and character
generation, the idiotic UI and the lack of any depth is horrifying.
Marco

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/



--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-20 Thread Marco Thorek

Jim Leonard schrieb:
> 
> It's not the calculators:  It's what makes money.  You shouldn't be scared
> that accountants and suits are ruining the industry; instead, you should be
> scared that the core sales of most computer and console gaming are the way
> they are.  It is a hard pill to swallow that adventure games simply don't sell
> enough units to make a profit.

True. It's only that once upon a time the profit didn't matter as much.
You could singlehandedly or in a duo write a game and find a publisher
easy enough, even if your game was totally obscure. Nowadays profit is
the prime directive and who knows better about profits than the suits?

Those managers sure know a thing about finances, but apparently not much
about how the creative side of this industry works. For example, whoever
adviced EA to ship games in DVD cases immediately cut down production
costs, but failed to realize it'll lower the number of units sold, as
there won't be much left that distinguishes a bought game from a warez
version.

It is the same as with the music industry: Some managers found that
instead of expensive talent scouting and sponsoring bands that might
fail, they should simply manufacture boy- and girlgroups, who
specifically cater to the target audience that spends the most money on
its idols and music: teenagers. Now the music industry blames P2P for
the slump in music sales, instead of realizing we had one too many
Boyzone, Westlife, Backstreet Boys, N'Sync et. al., and no real talent
in the charts for some time. Imagine Meat Loaf trying to get a record
contract these days.
 
> There are a *few* sequels, maybe 5 a year, that are indeed worth playing.  I
> just recently finished Ratchet and Clank: Going Commando, and it was a
> surprisingly deep game with a lot of replay value.  But that is the exception.

True again. What also irks me as a PC gamer these days is that we are
mostly given gruesome console ports. Most recent example there being
"Deux Ex: Invisible War." The game may be perfect for the Xbox and its
audience, on the PC the graphics, the simplified story and character
generation, the idiotic UI and the lack of any depth is horrifying.

Marco

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-18 Thread Jim Leonard

Marco Thorek wrote:

I'm not sure I like all this concentration. We are almost at the point
where only a few publishers dominate the market, because only
heavyweights can afford to develop a game nowadays. And because these
heavyweights have to make sure that a title gets in the production
costs, we will see more and more games with a 2, 3, 4, 5 in the title
and as much appeal to the mass market as possible.   

Creativity and originality is only an afterthought, once the calculators
rule over the creative department of a gaming company.
It's not the calculators:  It's what makes money.  You shouldn't be scared 
that accountants and suits are ruining the industry; instead, you should be 
scared that the core sales of most computer and console gaming are the way 
they are.  It is a hard pill to swallow that adventure games simply don't sell 
enough units to make a profit.

There are a *few* sequels, maybe 5 a year, that are indeed worth playing.  I 
just recently finished Ratchet and Clank: Going Commando, and it was a 
surprisingly deep game with a lot of replay value.  But that is the exception.
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-18 Thread Marco Thorek

"Feldhamer, Stuart" schrieb:
> 
> It doesn't seem odd to me...Legend has abandoned its core competency -
> adventure games.

IIRC Legend didn't have much choice. In the mid-90s the adventure market
started to run dry and Legend had to move 3D in order to survive. Later
they apparently also couldn't by themselves cope with the increasingly
huge production costs per title and if GT Interactive hadn't stepped in,
there might have been no more Legend Ent. much earlier.

The pity in all this is that the 3D titles Legend did at first weren't
exactly bad, but overlooked. And when Infogrames later bought GT
Interactive, Legend wasn't much more than a name under many and the
consequences we see now.

I'm not sure I like all this concentration. We are almost at the point
where only a few publishers dominate the market, because only
heavyweights can afford to develop a game nowadays. And because these
heavyweights have to make sure that a title gets in the production
costs, we will see more and more games with a 2, 3, 4, 5 in the title
and as much appeal to the mass market as possible.   

Creativity and originality is only an afterthought, once the calculators
rule over the creative department of a gaming company.

Marco

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-17 Thread Edward Franks

On Jan 15, 2004, at 11:15 AM, Feldhamer, Stuart wrote:

It doesn't seem odd to me...Legend has abandoned its core competency -
adventure games.
	If the rumors are true (Legend has been shutdown) they paid the price. 
 :-/

--

Edward Franks

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-15 Thread Edward Franks

On Jan 15, 2004, at 4:13 AM, Pedro Quaresma wrote:
[Snip]
Oh yes, no doubt. The problem is you never get all the things you want 
in the same game! :)
	True, but what would we collect if we had the perfect game?  ;-)

[Snip]
Ah yes the Atronach sign. 85% of Morrowind's players, spellcasters or 
not, pick that sign!
	That's interesting.  I picked the Warrior for my character's sign.

[Snip]
I agree with you that AD&D 3 (and AD&D 3.5) is extraordinarily 
flexible. Nevertheless, you originally said it was "very simple", and 
that's where I disagreed.
	Compared to 1st edition -- which Jim mentioned -- it is.  For a 
newcomer to D&D and role-playing you are right, it is harder because 
you have to make a series of choices without really understanding the 
interplay of the options.

--

Edward Franks

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

RE: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-15 Thread Feldhamer, Stuart

I am a huge fan of Bob Bates, but I don't think he did that much on the
Gateway games or Xanth. Likewise for Unreal 2 - I wasn't under the
impression that he was that involved with the design.

Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 12:35 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Feldhamer, Stuart wrote:
> It doesn't seem odd to me...Legend has abandoned its core competency -
> adventure games.

Yes, but with Bob Bates doing design for Unreal II, you'd think the game 
would have been better.  I mean, he's worked on:

Companions of Xanth (1993)
Eric the Unready (1993)
Gateway 2: Homeworld (1993)
Frederik Pohl's Gateway (1992)
Timequest (1991)
Arthur: The Quest for Excalibur (Infocom, 1989)
Sherlock: The Riddle of the Crown Jewels (Infocom, 1987)

Oh well.
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Information in this message reflects current market conditions and is subject to 
change without notice. 
It is believed to be reliable, but is not guaranteed for accuracy or completeness. 
Details provided do 
not supersede your normal trade confirmations or statements. Any product is subject to 
prior sale. 
CIBC World Markets Corp, its affiliated companies, and their officers or employees, 
may have a position 
in or make a market in any security described above, and may act as an investment 
banker or advisor to such.  
Although CIBC World Markets Corp. is an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Canadian 
Imperial Bank of Commerce ("CIBC"), 
it is solely responsible for its contractual obligations. Any securities products 
recommended, purchased, or sold in 
any client accounts 
(i) will not be insured by the FDIC, 
(ii)will not be deposits or obligations of CIBC, 
(iii) will not be endorsed or guaranteed by CIBC, and 
(iv) will be subject to risks, including possible loss of principal invested.

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-15 Thread Jim Leonard

Feldhamer, Stuart wrote:
It doesn't seem odd to me...Legend has abandoned its core competency -
adventure games.
Yes, but with Bob Bates doing design for Unreal II, you'd think the game 
would have been better.  I mean, he's worked on:

Companions of Xanth (1993)
Eric the Unready (1993)
Gateway 2: Homeworld (1993)
Frederik Pohl's Gateway (1992)
Timequest (1991)
Arthur: The Quest for Excalibur (Infocom, 1989)
Sherlock: The Riddle of the Crown Jewels (Infocom, 1987)
Oh well.
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/
--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

RE: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-15 Thread Feldhamer, Stuart

It doesn't seem odd to me...Legend has abandoned its core competency -
adventure games.

Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2004 12:09 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Marco Thorek wrote:
> Jim Leonard schrieb:
> 
>>(Ironically, Wheel of Time, a game based on a Robert Jordan novel, is
>>actually a very good game.  The "ancientspeak" is thick and heavy but
>>since it's an action adventure it's not as irritating.)
> 
> Although commercially it failed, IIRC. 
> 
> It was by Legend, wasn't it?

Correct on both counts.  Legend has had some spectacular flops recently, 
the most notable and recent being Unreal II.  It felt flat, which is odd 
given that the same Legend people behind some of their best adventures 
in the early 1990s were behind it.
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Information in this message reflects current market conditions and is subject to 
change without notice. 
It is believed to be reliable, but is not guaranteed for accuracy or completeness. 
Details provided do 
not supersede your normal trade confirmations or statements. Any product is subject to 
prior sale. 
CIBC World Markets Corp, its affiliated companies, and their officers or employees, 
may have a position 
in or make a market in any security described above, and may act as an investment 
banker or advisor to such.  
Although CIBC World Markets Corp. is an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Canadian 
Imperial Bank of Commerce ("CIBC"), 
it is solely responsible for its contractual obligations. Any securities products 
recommended, purchased, or sold in 
any client accounts 
(i) will not be insured by the FDIC, 
(ii)will not be deposits or obligations of CIBC, 
(iii) will not be endorsed or guaranteed by CIBC, and 
(iv) will be subject to risks, including possible loss of principal invested.

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-15 Thread Jim Leonard

Pedro Quaresma wrote:
Ever got bored at those RPGs with turn-based combat, in which your level 
78 hero has to face yet another rat? Wish it would be over in a second? 
This combat system solves that "flaw" of oh so many RPGs with turn-based 
combat.
Arcanum had an "automatic turn-based" or something or other option that 
allowed you to select an enemy and it would switch into real-time to 
attack that enemy until it was gone, then switch back into turn-based, 
IIRC.  That was nice.

 >(Ironically, Wheel of Time, a game based on a Robert Jordan novel, is
 >actually a very good game.  The "ancientspeak" is thick and heavy but
 >since it's an action adventure it's not as irritating.)
When the game was released I was still fairly interested in RJ's books. 
I never got the game though because I read it had a shallow plot and 
basically played like a FPS.
It does but that doesn't mean it's not enjoyable.  For the time it came 
out it had the most recent Unreal Tournament engine and they used it 
well, so it looks very nice.  Also, there are some very novel things in 
it that I have never seen in FPS games; for example, some of your 
"weapons" are actually things like building walls, spikes, and pits via 
magic.  There are scenarios where you could never hope to fight your way 
out of, so you have to quickly build a trap using all three elements, so 
imagine yourself frantically constructing a maze of walls to direct 
people to your spikes and pit while you hear them charging, getting 
closer and closer... you get the idea.  Also, it had over 40 different 
"spells" (weapons) so it was never boring.

I've been told all the Robert Jordan fans love the game, so I'd 
recommend it.  I can't read RJ novels myself.
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-15 Thread Jim Leonard

Marco Thorek wrote:
Jim Leonard schrieb:

(Ironically, Wheel of Time, a game based on a Robert Jordan novel, is
actually a very good game.  The "ancientspeak" is thick and heavy but
since it's an action adventure it's not as irritating.)
Although commercially it failed, IIRC. 

It was by Legend, wasn't it?
Correct on both counts.  Legend has had some spectacular flops recently, 
the most notable and recent being Unreal II.  It felt flat, which is odd 
given that the same Legend people behind some of their best adventures 
in the early 1990s were behind it.
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics


I think back in 1994 I did play your game. To be honest, if it's really the game I'm thinking of, it didn't attract me much :(

You probably remember the "Age of Mystics" homepage that had almost every shareware RPG in existance. I downloaded from there several shareware RPGs I'll never forget, like Exile, Nahlakh, Castle Excelsior, The Aethra Chronicles...

As I said, those were the days! :D

Pedro

PS: I almost forgot! A big welcome too to our new swedish member grovs... errr... Peo! ;)

--
Pedro R. Quaresma
Salvador Caetano IMVT
Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division
Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / 
Lotus Notes Administration and Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)

Toyota Prius '01, Aqua Ice Opalescent, 37K km., "Esperanza"
 
'People don't quit playing because they grow old. They grow old because they quit playing.' - Oliver Wendell Holmes









                     

        
Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
A/C: 
Ref: 
cc: 
Assunto: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics


Howard Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15-01-2004 15:33


Solicita-se resposta a feldman


I released 1.0 in 1994 I believe, and there were two minor updates to 
v1.2 in 1995 or 1996.  It was actually one of only about 4-5 'real' 
shareware RPGs available at the time.

Pedro Quaresma wrote:
> 
> Howard,
> How old is The Search for Freedom? About 7 or 8 years ago, when RPGs 
> were hard to come by, I scavenged the net for about every shareware RPG 
> in existance, and I remember playing one that looked a lot like tSfF.
> 
> Shareware RPGs... ah... those were the days! :D
> 
> Pedro
> 
> PS: A big "Bem vindo!" ("Welcome!") to the other portuguese-speaking 
> member, Tomas :)
> 
> --
> Pedro R. Quaresma
> Salvador Caetano IMVT
> Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division
> Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes /
> Lotus Notes Administration and Development
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)
> 
> Toyota Prius '01, Aqua Ice Opalescent, 37K km., "Esperanza"
> 
> 'People don't quit playing because they grow old. They grow old because 
> they quit playing.' - Oliver Wendell Holmes
> 
> 
>                  
> 
> 
>                      
>                         
> Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> A/C:
> Ref:
> cc:
> Assunto: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics
>                  *Howard Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>*
> 13-01-2004 18:51
>                  Solicita-se resposta a feldman
> 
> 
> 
> Not to toot my own horn, but you may want to try The Search for Freedom
> (see my sig) - it meets most of your criteria and still works in a DOS
> window (albeit without sound - I havent gotten it to work with VDMsound
> yet either but it may be possible)
> 
>  > So, any refinements to your suggestions?  :)
>  >
>  > To everyone:  This is great fun, keep the suggestions coming!
> 
> -- 
> 
> Howard Feldman
> Author of the Search for Freedom Computer Role-Playing Game
> Visit its homepage at:  http://deep.mshri.on.ca/people/feldman
> 
> 
> --
> This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
> the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
> Archives are available at: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ToyotaShopping - A sua Loja Toyota Online
> http://www.toyota.pt
> 

-- 

Howard Feldman
Author of the Search for Freedom Computer Role-Playing Game
Visit its homepage at:  http://deep.mshri.on.ca/people/feldman


--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/


 




ToyotaShopping - A sua Loja Toyota Online
http://www.toyota.pt

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-15 Thread Howard Feldman

I released 1.0 in 1994 I believe, and there were two minor updates to 
v1.2 in 1995 or 1996.  It was actually one of only about 4-5 'real' 
shareware RPGs available at the time.

Pedro Quaresma wrote:
Howard,
How old is The Search for Freedom? About 7 or 8 years ago, when RPGs 
were hard to come by, I scavenged the net for about every shareware RPG 
in existance, and I remember playing one that looked a lot like tSfF.

Shareware RPGs... ah... those were the days! :D

Pedro

PS: A big "Bem vindo!" ("Welcome!") to the other portuguese-speaking 
member, Tomas :)

--
Pedro R. Quaresma
Salvador Caetano IMVT
Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division
Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes /
Lotus Notes Administration and Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)
Toyota Prius '01, Aqua Ice Opalescent, 37K km., "Esperanza"

'People don't quit playing because they grow old. They grow old because 
they quit playing.' - Oliver Wendell Holmes

	

     
	   
Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
A/C:
Ref:
cc:
Assunto: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics
	*Howard Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>*
13-01-2004 18:51
	Solicita-se resposta a feldman



Not to toot my own horn, but you may want to try The Search for Freedom
(see my sig) - it meets most of your criteria and still works in a DOS
window (albeit without sound - I havent gotten it to work with VDMsound
yet either but it may be possible)
 > So, any refinements to your suggestions?  :)
 >
 > To everyone:  This is great fun, keep the suggestions coming!
--

Howard Feldman
Author of the Search for Freedom Computer Role-Playing Game
Visit its homepage at:  http://deep.mshri.on.ca/people/feldman
--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

 



ToyotaShopping - A sua Loja Toyota Online
http://www.toyota.pt
--

Howard Feldman
Author of the Search for Freedom Computer Role-Playing Game
Visit its homepage at:  http://deep.mshri.on.ca/people/feldman
--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Jim Leonard wrote:
>Pedro Quaresma wrote:
>
>> 
>> extremely enjoyable. It's actually my 2nd favorite combat system ever.

>What's your 1st?

Faery Tales Adventures 2: Halls of the Dead. Combat is turn based, but if you leave the left mouse button pressed, each turn runs faster until it becomes real time. Stop pressing left mouse button and it instantly becomes turn based again.

Ever got bored at those RPGs with turn-based combat, in which your level 78 hero has to face yet another rat? Wish it would be over in a second? This combat system solves that "flaw" of oh so many RPGs with turn-based combat.

> Come on Jim, long and unusual names are a must... you can't quite have 
> "Prince Dick", "Joe the White Knight" or "Mary the Priestess of Tony"! 
> :D "Tom the Mage" is ok though ;)

>It's not the length, it's the absurdity of the names that drives me up a 
>wall.  It is possible to go overboard in "medieval speak".  In my 
>example, quoted again for humorous reference:

>"Making the ascension of Arrogath in the land of Blesmythson requires 
>the blessing of Gorgonax the Blargnargian during the Time of Rhyne."

>..it's all the "ancientspeak" that drives me nuts.  It's like going to 
>hell and finding out that hell is really a Renaissance Faire where 
>everyone talks like that, badly.  Am I making sense?  

Yes, and I do know some games do go overboard. Nevertheless I feel it's a necessity of having some "absurd" names in order for the player to get "in-character". I admit I'd prefer naming my character Arrogath than Pedro :) I do often use some simple names though, like Lyan, Ky, Cinir, etc.

>It's like being 
>trapped in a Robert Jordan novel.  I would sooner claw my own eyes out 
>than be forced to read 10 minutes of that unending gibberish.

>No offense to those who like Robert Jordan :)

OT: The Wheel of Time started in an interesting way, but the books did get, imho, annoying and plain boring after the 5th or so.

On the other hand, if you haven't given it a go, try the extremely original George R. R. Martin's "Fire and Ice" series. After reading the first three books, I know I'll never be able to endure the usual 'clichés' of other typical fantasy books :)

>(Ironically, Wheel of Time, a game based on a Robert Jordan novel, is 
>actually a very good game.  The "ancientspeak" is thick and heavy but 
>since it's an action adventure it's not as irritating.)

When the game was released I was still fairly interested in RJ's books. I never got the game though because I read it had a shallow plot and basically played like a FPS.

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Edward Franks wrote:
>On Jan 14, 2004, at 11:07 AM, Pedro Quaresma wrote:
>[Snip]
>> Me too, but it's still too arcade-ish.

>                 It didn't seem that way to me, but then I play a fair amount first 
>person shooters.  Combat seemed reasonably fluid.

>                 It is a good thing we have some variety in the genre.  :-D

Oh yes, no doubt. The problem is you never get all the things you want in the same game! :) Look exclusively at 2002, so many great different RPGs... nevertheless I'd love to have one with the graphics/settings/sounds of Morrowind, plus the interface/visual perspective of Divine Divinity, plus the combat/items/multiplayer system of Prince of Qin...

> Another flaw is the complete inbalance between magic users and 
> melee-types. Spellcasters really get the shaft in this game.

>                 That depends on how you build your character.  My wife played the 
>mage-type where you need to be attacked by magic to 'recharge' your own 
>magic.  She did quite well in the game that way.  

Ah yes the Atronach sign. 85% of Morrowind's players, spellcasters or not, pick that sign!

>She did play through 
>Arena with the same type of character so that may have made the 
>difference.

That's a possibility. I have started Morrowind four times, and the character I feel most comfortable with is the one I used on Arena, Daggerfall and Battlespire: the melee type with magical support aka Spellsword.

Since you can enchant any item you want with any spell in the game (not to mention the scrolls), I can have a fully armored knight summonning a Daedroth and a Golden Saint, before discharging the 10 charges of Drathis Soulrot from my magical ring onto a crowd of foes. It's a bit munchkinist, but it does make the game for melee-types easier than for spellcasters.

[Snip]
> Yes, but if I put an armor on the mage, I can take it off and my 
> problems are solved.
>
> Now if I start a Weaponmaster wannabe with 10 int, or if I give my 
> archer-type Fighter the knockdown feat...

>                 I guess I'm not understanding your point.  Are you saying that the 
>system should be rigid enough to stop you from making that choice?  

No, I'm just saying that the system is great but does have that flaw. It should _not_ stop me from doing "dumb" choices, but the fact is, I can make them and I have to live with them. In p'n'p you can ask your nice DM if he'll let you swap 

>If you are then you're really wanted 1st or 2nd edition (A)D&D where you 
>can't do quite a bit.  If you want a system flexible enough to allow 
>lots of player options then you have to let the player make these types 
>of mistakes.

I agree with you that AD&D 3 (and AD&D 3.5) is extraordinarily flexible. Nevertheless, you originally said it was "very simple", and that's where I disagreed.

It's not simple for a new player to understand some basic notions like the Base Attack Bonus, Attacks of Opportunity, maximum Dex bonuses to AC, etc.

I'm not trying to put Jim away from AD&D3, far from it... but making a _good_ character takes time and some trial and error. I have for example played a dozen characters on Neverwinter Nights alone, and I still make mistakes when making characters.

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Howard,
How old is The Search for Freedom? About 7 or 8 years ago, when RPGs were hard to come by, I scavenged the net for about every shareware RPG in existance, and I remember playing one that looked a lot like tSfF.

Shareware RPGs... ah... those were the days! :D

Pedro

PS: A big "Bem vindo!" ("Welcome!") to the other portuguese-speaking member, Tomas :)

--
Pedro R. Quaresma
Salvador Caetano IMVT
Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division
Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes /
Lotus Notes Administration and Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)

Toyota Prius '01, Aqua Ice Opalescent, 37K km., "Esperanza"

'People don't quit playing because they grow old. They grow old because they quit playing.' - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
A/C:
Ref:
cc:
Assunto: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Howard Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13-01-2004 18:51

Solicita-se resposta a feldman

Not to toot my own horn, but you may want to try The Search for Freedom
(see my sig) - it meets most of your criteria and still works in a DOS
window (albeit without sound - I havent gotten it to work with VDMsound
yet either but it may be possible)

> So, any refinements to your suggestions? :)
>
> To everyone: This is great fun, keep the suggestions coming!

Howard Feldman
Author of the Search for Freedom Computer Role-Playing Game
Visit its homepage at: http://deep.mshri.on.ca/people/feldman

ToyotaShopping - A sua Loja Toyota Online
http://www.toyota.pt

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

On Jan 13, 2004, at 8:10 PM, Dan Chisarick wrote:
[Snip]
Now why would you spend extra cash on something just so you can beat 
it FASTER?!?!?  Isn't the whole idea to discover everything yourself?  
(Note: With the Internet, strategy guides are even more pointless.)  I 
won't even get started on how things in strategy guides today used to 
come in the game manual not long ago.  And yeah conceivably you could 
apply the same arguments above to strategy guides.
	I buy them because I generally run into puzzles that the developer 
thought were good, but I can't figure out.  ;-)  Bioware is great at 
putting in puzzles that make me scratch my head wondering how I was 
supposed to figure that out (the 
the-hint-is-obvious-if-you-know-the-answer syndrome).  Strategy guides 
are also much more readable than a screen and work anywhere.  (This is 
the downfall of ebooks.)

	In addition sometimes strategy guides have goodies not in the game.  
The Ultima Collection guide has an annotated poster of the game maps.  
The new Morrowind Game of the Year guide doesn't have goodies, but it 
is *huge*.  It is a coffee-table size book that pretty much covers the 
game and the expansions.

	The downsides to strategy guides are the fact they don't seem to be 
complete these days.  With the rush to get the strategy guide out the 
door at the same time as the game the guide can be flat out wrong in 
places.  Or worse, the game developer will pull a Blizzard and revamp 
the game balance multiple times thus making any charts in the guide 
useless.

--

Edward Franks

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-14 Thread Marco Thorek

Jim Leonard schrieb:
> 
> (Ironically, Wheel of Time, a game based on a Robert Jordan novel, is
> actually a very good game.  The "ancientspeak" is thick and heavy but
> since it's an action adventure it's not as irritating.)

Although commercially it failed, IIRC. 

It was by Legend, wasn't it?

Marco

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-14 Thread Jim Leonard

Pedro Quaresma wrote:

extremely enjoyable. It's actually my 2nd favorite combat system ever.
What's your 1st?

Come on Jim, long and unusual names are a must... you can't quite have 
"Prince Dick", "Joe the White Knight" or "Mary the Priestess of Tony"! 
:D "Tom the Mage" is ok though ;)
It's not the length, it's the absurdity of the names that drives me up a 
wall.  It is possible to go overboard in "medieval speak".  In my 
example, quoted again for humorous reference:

"Making the ascension of Arrogath in the land of Blesmythson requires 
the blessing of Gorgonax the Blargnargian during the Time of Rhyne."

..it's all the "ancientspeak" that drives me nuts.  It's like going to 
hell and finding out that hell is really a Renaissance Faire where 
everyone talks like that, badly.  Am I making sense?  It's like being 
trapped in a Robert Jordan novel.  I would sooner claw my own eyes out 
than be forced to read 10 minutes of that unending gibberish.

No offense to those who like Robert Jordan :)

(Ironically, Wheel of Time, a game based on a Robert Jordan novel, is 
actually a very good game.  The "ancientspeak" is thick and heavy but 
since it's an action adventure it's not as irritating.)
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-14 Thread Jim Leonard

Edward Franks wrote:

You aren't going to find many games that do turn-based combat 
these days.  Temple of Elemental Evil is the only one that springs to 
Who said I was looking for *modern* games?  :)
I figured you would know about the older ones.  ;-)
Touche!  :-D

Seriously, though, I have several holes in my knowledge, and RPGs are 
definitely one of them.  I especially know nothing at all about most 
8-bit games that came on tape only, like TRS-80/CoCo, C64/Vic20 tape, 
etc.  My experience was mostly limited to diskette-based mediums.
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

On Jan 14, 2004, at 11:07 AM, Pedro Quaresma wrote:
[Snip]
Me too, but it's still too arcade-ish.
	It didn't seem that way to me, but then I play a fair amount first 
person shooters.  Combat seemed reasonably fluid.

	It is a good thing we have some variety in the genre.  :-D

Another flaw is the complete inbalance between magic users and 
melee-types. Spellcasters really get the shaft in this game.
	That depends on how you build your character.  My wife played the 
mage-type where you need to be attacked by magic to 'recharge' your own 
magic.  She did quite well in the game that way.  She did play through 
Arena with the same type of character so that may have made the 
difference.

[Snip]
Yes, but if I put an armor on the mage, I can take it off and my 
problems are solved.

Now if I start a Weaponmaster wannabe with 10 int, or if I give my 
archer-type Fighter the knockdown feat...
	I guess I'm not understanding your point.  Are you saying that the 
system should be rigid enough to stop you from making that choice?  If 
you are then you're really wanted 1st or 2nd edition (A)D&D where you 
can't do quite a bit.  If you want a system flexible enough to allow 
lots of player options then you have to let the player make these types 
of mistakes.

--

Edward Franks

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

On Jan 13, 2004, at 3:24 PM, Jim Leonard wrote:

Edward Franks wrote:

You aren't going to find many games that do turn-based combat 
these days.  Temple of Elemental Evil is the only one that springs to 
mind and
Who said I was looking for *modern* games?  :)
	I figured you would know about the older ones.  ;-)

--

Edward Franks

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-14 Thread Pedro Quaresma


Edward Franks wrote:
>>On Jan 14, 2004, at 9:40 AM, Pedro Quaresma wrote:
>>[Snip]
>> Morrowind is a superb game, highly moddable (I run about 30 mods on my
>> game, mostly visual effects and items) and with a very nice and 
>> original
>> setting.
>>
>> On the other hand it does have two major flaws (for me): it has
>> arcade-like combat (it's first person and you have to swing your mouse
>> left and right to do a similar sword movement, for example), and it 
>> has no
>> party.

>                 There is an option to always select the best type of attack with the 
>weapon you are wielding.  I use that.  

Me too, but it's still too arcade-ish.

Another flaw is the complete inbalance between magic users and melee-types. Spellcasters really get the shaft in this game.

>The other is a hold over from 
>Arena and Daggerfall when Bethesda tried to model various types of 
>attacks with various mouse movements.

It's not that a "good" combat system can be implemented on a real time 1st person RPG, right? Well.. wrong :) Might & Magic 7 had it :)

>[Snip]
>> I can't agree there. A wrong choice of a Feat or a starting stat and 
>> your
>> character can go from "uber" to "weakling" ;)

>                 Bad choices are a _player_ problem, not a system problem.  ;-)  For 
>example, you can put armor on your mage if you want, but your casting 
>failure rate is going to be pretty high...

Yes, but if I put an armor on the mage, I can take it off and my problems are solved. 

Now if I start a Weaponmaster wannabe with 10 int, or if I give my archer-type Fighter the knockdown feat...



--
Pedro R. Quaresma
Salvador Caetano IMVT
Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division
Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / 
Lotus Notes Administration and Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)

Toyota Prius '01, Aqua Ice Opalescent, 37K km., "Esperanza"
 
'People don't quit playing because they grow old. They grow old because they quit playing.' - Oliver Wendell Holmes 




ToyotaShopping - A sua Loja Toyota Online
http://www.toyota.pt

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

On Jan 14, 2004, at 9:40 AM, Pedro Quaresma wrote:
[Snip]
Morrowind is a superb game, highly moddable (I run about 30 mods on my
game, mostly visual effects and items) and with a very nice and 
original
setting.

On the other hand it does have two major flaws (for me): it has
arcade-like combat (it's first person and you have to swing your mouse
left and right to do a similar sword movement, for example), and it 
has no
party.
	There is an option to always select the best type of attack with the 
weapon you are wielding.  I use that.  The other is a hold over from 
Arena and Daggerfall when Bethesda tried to model various types of 
attacks with various mouse movements.

[Snip]
I can't agree there. A wrong choice of a Feat or a starting stat and 
your
character can go from "uber" to "weakling" ;)
	Bad choices are a _player_ problem, not a system problem.  ;-)  For 
example, you can put armor on your mage if you want, but your casting 
failure rate is going to be pretty high...

--

Edward Franks

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-14 Thread Pedro Quaresma

Edward Franks wrote:
>On Jan 13, 2004, at 12:31 PM, Jim Leonard wrote:
>>[Snip]
>> Things I look for in an RPG:
>>
>> - turn-based combat.

>                 You aren't going to find many games that do turn-based combat these 
>days.  Temple of Elemental Evil is the only one that springs to mind 
>and that has had poor reviews.  Mostly you get 'phased' combat (think 
>Fallout's Action Points) with the ability to pause at any time.

Yes the combat is pretty much like Fallout, but even better :) You get a certain number of "APs" for moving and then another for what is called a full action (like an attack or casting a spell), or for moving too. It's a bit complicated at first but once you get the hang of it, it's extremely enjoyable. It's actually my 2nd favorite combat system ever.

ToEE did get bad reviews (mostly because it has quite some bugs without the patch) but it's a very good game, and probably best RPG of 2003. It starts slowly with mostly fedex quests, but it gets better later on within the dungeons themselves.

>> - combat-driven as opposed to story-driven (at least, I think I lean 
>> that way -- is Wasteland and Fallout combat-driven?)
>>
>> - non-typical genre.  I don't prefer the typical "medieval fantasy" 
>> setting but I'm not opposed to it either.  I prefer 
>> post-apocolyptic/nuclear aftermath settings, or something 
>> unconventional like Arcanum's "steamworks and magic obscura" setting 
>> (the setting alone in Arcanum was 80% of why I loved the game).  I've 
>> never tried Necromancer or Mines of Titan but they seem like settings 
>> I would enjoy.

>                 You might check out Morrowind.  Lots of possible combat, plus the 
>setting isn't the typical generic pseudo medieval fantasy.  The current 
>game of the year edition includes both expansions.

Morrowind is a superb game, highly moddable (I run about 30 mods on my game, mostly visual effects and items) and with a very nice and original setting.

On the other hand it does have two major flaws (for me): it has arcade-like combat (it's first person and you have to swing your mouse left and right to do a similar sword movement, for example), and it has no party.

>> - sound and graphics don't matter to me (they're a bonus if they're 
>> cleverly done, like in BT or Wasteland, but not mandatory).  I'm a fan 
>> of clever sound, but I don't think it would be required in an RPG.

>                 The graphics and sound are pretty good in Morrowind.  You can even 
>look up at the night sky and see the constellations mentioned in the 
>character creation section (which gives you several different ways to 
>create a character).

Good point there: character creation on Morrowind is superb, almost as good as on its predecessor Daggerfall. It's visually stunning, specially if you have a modern gfx card in order to see pixel shading effects on the water.

Its soundtrack is also excellent.

>> - Not reliant on another system or rule of play.  For example, I don't 
>> think I'll ever play a Hobbit/LOTR game because I haven't read the 
>> books.  Same goes for Star Wars because I'm not really that into it. 
>> Original AD&D I can handle because it's simple, but the new Rev 3 
>> games scare me :).

>                 3rd edition D&D shouldn't scare you.  It is very simple and flexible.  

I can't agree there. A wrong choice of a Feat or a starting stat and your character can go from "uber" to "weakling" ;)

It's incredibly fun tho, specially the 3.5 edition, in which the Ranger class at last becomes useful!

>It is a relatively clean system that preserves the fun of the 1st 
>edition.  Then again, I thought the 2nd edition was a piece of shit.  
>;-)  Also, one of the goals of the 3rd edition rewrite was to make the 
>game easier to recreate in computer games.

AD&D from 2nd edition on had the merit of being the only class based RPG system I know in which you could mix the character classes themselves. 

>> - Finally, dumb-ass fictional LONG proper nouns drive me nuts and 
>> really turn me off.  Text like "Making the ascension of Arrogath in 
>> the land of Blesmythson requires the blessing of Gorgonax the 
>> Blargnargian during the Time of Rhyne" in a game usually has me 
>> uninstall it within minutes.  :-D

>                 There are some long proper nouns, but I don't remember that many.  
>Then again long names don't phase me so I tend not to notice them.

Come on Jim, long and unusual names are a must... you can't quite have "Prince Dick", "Joe the White Knight" or "Mary the Priestess of Tony"! :D "Tom the Mage" is ok though ;)

--
Pedro R. Quaresma
Salvador Caetano IMVT
Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division
Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / 
Lotus Notes Administration and Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)

Toyota Prius '01, Aqua Ice Opalescent, 37K km., "Esperanza"

'People don't quit playing because they grow old. They grow old because they quit playing.' - Ol

[SWCollect] RPG suggestions (was: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics)

2004-01-14 Thread Pedro Quaresma

From what you wrote, I think you will love D.W.Bradley's Wizardry 6 and 7. It has phased combat, it is strongly combat oriented, it is not a typical fantasy setting (it is mostly fantasy but... ok I won't spoil it for you. :) If you liked Arcanum, you'll like these two, specially Wiz7), and both have a great storyline and plot (Wizardry 6 being slightly more interesting).

Wizardry 6 characters have normal names like Rebecca, Bela, King, Robin, Geoffrey... but on the other hand there's one "Lord Haiyato Daikuta, Yojimbo Kaishakunin, Guardian of the 4th Order" :D

I played LotR before reading the books and I have to say it was an interesting experience and a motivation to read the whole Tolkien collection.

On a completely different tone, I'd look back at 2002 (a golden year for RPGs -- more about this in reply to Edward's mail) and imho the best RPG of that year: Prince of Qin. Nice non typical fantasy story (it's based on true facts in medieval China, although it's "fantasized"), strongly combat oriented, combat is paused real time, complete item/drops randomization... it would not make it to my top 10 list of RPGs, but it's worth a look.

Toyota Prius '01, Aqua Ice Opalescent, 37K km., "Esperanza"

'People don't quit playing because they grow old. They grow old because they quit playing.' - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
A/C:
Ref:
cc:
Assunto: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Jim Leonard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13-01-2004 18:31

Solicita-se resposta a swcollect

Excellent, excellent suggestions, thank you.

Pedro Quaresma wrote:
>
> I have given perhaps too many suggestions :) I can be more specific if
> you tell me exactly what you enjoy the most on a RPG. Combat/story
> driven? Turn based/real time/phased/action combat? First person/3rd
> person perspective? Does good gfx/sound matter?

Things I look for in an RPG:

- turn-based combat.

- combat-driven as opposed to story-driven (at least, I think I lean
that way -- is Wasteland and Fallout combat-driven?)

- non-typical genre. I don't prefer the typical "medieval fantasy"
setting but I'm not opposed to it either. I prefer
post-apocolyptic/nuclear aftermath settings, or something unconventional
like Arcanum's "steamworks and magic obscura" setting (the setting alone
in Arcanum was 80% of why I loved the game). I've never tried
Necromancer or Mines of Titan but they seem like settings I would enjoy.

- sound and graphics don't matter to me (they're a bonus if they're
cleverly done, like in BT or Wasteland, but not mandatory). I'm a fan
of clever sound, but I don't think it would be required in an RPG.

- Not reliant on another system or rule of play. For example, I don't
think I'll ever play a Hobbit/LOTR game because I haven't read the
books. Same goes for Star Wars because I'm not really that into it.
Original AD&D I can handle because it's simple, but the new Rev 3 games
scare me :).

- Finally, dumb-ass fictional LONG proper nouns drive me nuts and really
turn me off. Text like "Making the ascension of Arrogath in the land of
Blesmythson requires the blessing of Gorgonax the Blargnargian during
the Time of Rhyne" in a game usually has me uninstall it within minutes.
:-D

So, any refinements to your suggestions? :)

To everyone: This is great fun, keep the suggestions coming!
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/

ToyotaShopping - A sua Loja Toyota Online
http://www.toyota.pt

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-13 Thread Dan Chisarick

At the most fundamental level, you're trading cash for a binary file.  
I've lost count of the software licenses I've purchased where all I've 
gotten is a license key in e-mail.  I don't own the software either, 
only the right to use it (provided I don't break one of a dozen license 
terms).  Doesn't sound like its much different to me (compensating 
someone for their work with payment so you can enjoy what they made).

Certainly that sort of breaks up if you try to compare building up a 
character through hours of effort to writing the software yourself 
through hours of effort (clearly the intention is not the same).  But I 
suppose if you want to jumpstart your new character or you simply don't 
have time to play for hours on hours but still want to enjoy more 
advanced aspects (owning a castle, etc) it also makes sense.

To me, THIS is what's pointless:

- New PC game: $50
- Strategy Guide: $25
Now why would you spend extra cash on something just so you can beat it 
FASTER?!?!?  Isn't the whole idea to discover everything yourself?  
(Note: With the Internet, strategy guides are even more pointless.)  I 
won't even get started on how things in strategy guides today used to 
come in the game manual not long ago.  And yeah conceivably you could 
apply the same arguments above to strategy guides.

On Jan 13, 2004, at 1:03 PM, Jim Leonard wrote:

Pedro Quaresma wrote:
I've never bought "online items" but I don't see the problem in 
paying for things that give you a certain degree of enjoyment.
I understand, but my question was geared toward trying to understand 
the enjoyment.  For me, working hard and finally achieving a goal, 
beating an enemy, etc. is the fun part.  My confusion was in trying to 
understand the motivation of people who spend $100 or more on in-game 
items.

An online item can also provide enjoyment (like the example that was 
given, buying an house on UO for example) and then even be resold for 
a profit.
Yes, but given your examples, $5 for a movie or a pack of cigarettes 
is much different than $150 for a +5 enchanted sword or whatever.  I 
can understand spending $5 to see a movie but I can't fathom spending 
$150 or more for an item.  So that's why I asked.
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/



--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

RE: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-13 Thread Feldhamer, Stuart

I would also look into so-called "turn-based strategy" games such as Jagged
Alliance.

Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 4:25 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Edward Franks wrote:

> You aren't going to find many games that do turn-based combat these 
> days.  Temple of Elemental Evil is the only one that springs to mind and 

Who said I was looking for *modern* games?  :)

Thanks for the Morrowind suggestion.
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Information in this message reflects current market conditions and is subject to 
change without notice. 
It is believed to be reliable, but is not guaranteed for accuracy or completeness. 
Details provided do 
not supersede your normal trade confirmations or statements. Any product is subject to 
prior sale. 
CIBC World Markets Corp, its affiliated companies, and their officers or employees, 
may have a position 
in or make a market in any security described above, and may act as an investment 
banker or advisor to such.  
Although CIBC World Markets Corp. is an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Canadian 
Imperial Bank of Commerce ("CIBC"), 
it is solely responsible for its contractual obligations. Any securities products 
recommended, purchased, or sold in 
any client accounts 
(i) will not be insured by the FDIC, 
(ii)will not be deposits or obligations of CIBC, 
(iii) will not be endorsed or guaranteed by CIBC, and 
(iv) will be subject to risks, including possible loss of principal invested.

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-13 Thread Jim Leonard

Edward Franks wrote:

You aren't going to find many games that do turn-based combat these 
days.  Temple of Elemental Evil is the only one that springs to mind and 
Who said I was looking for *modern* games?  :)

Thanks for the Morrowind suggestion.
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/
--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-13 Thread Edward Franks

On Jan 13, 2004, at 12:31 PM, Jim Leonard wrote:
[Snip]
Things I look for in an RPG:

- turn-based combat.
	You aren't going to find many games that do turn-based combat these 
days.  Temple of Elemental Evil is the only one that springs to mind 
and that has had poor reviews.  Mostly you get 'phased' combat (think 
Fallout's Action Points) with the ability to pause at any time.

- combat-driven as opposed to story-driven (at least, I think I lean 
that way -- is Wasteland and Fallout combat-driven?)

- non-typical genre.  I don't prefer the typical "medieval fantasy" 
setting but I'm not opposed to it either.  I prefer 
post-apocolyptic/nuclear aftermath settings, or something 
unconventional like Arcanum's "steamworks and magic obscura" setting 
(the setting alone in Arcanum was 80% of why I loved the game).  I've 
never tried Necromancer or Mines of Titan but they seem like settings 
I would enjoy.
	You might check out Morrowind.  Lots of possible combat, plus the 
setting isn't the typical generic pseudo medieval fantasy.  The current 
game of the year edition includes both expansions.

- sound and graphics don't matter to me (they're a bonus if they're 
cleverly done, like in BT or Wasteland, but not mandatory).  I'm a fan 
of clever sound, but I don't think it would be required in an RPG.
	The graphics and sound are pretty good in Morrowind.  You can even 
look up at the night sky and see the constellations mentioned in the 
character creation section (which gives you several different ways to 
create a character).

- Not reliant on another system or rule of play.  For example, I don't 
think I'll ever play a Hobbit/LOTR game because I haven't read the 
books.  Same goes for Star Wars because I'm not really that into it. 
Original AD&D I can handle because it's simple, but the new Rev 3 
games scare me :).
	3rd edition D&D shouldn't scare you.  It is very simple and flexible.  
It is a relatively clean system that preserves the fun of the 1st 
edition.  Then again, I thought the 2nd edition was a piece of shit.  
;-)  Also, one of the goals of the 3rd edition rewrite was to make the 
game easier to recreate in computer games.

- Finally, dumb-ass fictional LONG proper nouns drive me nuts and 
really turn me off.  Text like "Making the ascension of Arrogath in 
the land of Blesmythson requires the blessing of Gorgonax the 
Blargnargian during the Time of Rhyne" in a game usually has me 
uninstall it within minutes.  :-D
	There are some long proper nouns, but I don't remember that many.  
Then again long names don't phase me so I tend not to notice them.

--

Edward Franks

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-13 Thread Howard Feldman

Not to toot my own horn, but you may want to try The Search for Freedom 
(see my sig) - it meets most of your criteria and still works in a DOS 
window (albeit without sound - I havent gotten it to work with VDMsound 
yet either but it may be possible)

So, any refinements to your suggestions?  :)

To everyone:  This is great fun, keep the suggestions coming!
--

Howard Feldman
Author of the Search for Freedom Computer Role-Playing Game
Visit its homepage at:  http://deep.mshri.on.ca/people/feldman
--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-13 Thread Jim Leonard

Excellent, excellent suggestions, thank you.

Pedro Quaresma wrote:
I have given perhaps too many suggestions :) I can be more specific if 
you tell me exactly what you enjoy the most on a RPG. Combat/story 
driven? Turn based/real time/phased/action combat? First person/3rd 
person perspective? Does good gfx/sound matter?
Things I look for in an RPG:

- turn-based combat.

- combat-driven as opposed to story-driven (at least, I think I lean 
that way -- is Wasteland and Fallout combat-driven?)

- non-typical genre.  I don't prefer the typical "medieval fantasy" 
setting but I'm not opposed to it either.  I prefer 
post-apocolyptic/nuclear aftermath settings, or something unconventional 
like Arcanum's "steamworks and magic obscura" setting (the setting alone 
in Arcanum was 80% of why I loved the game).  I've never tried 
Necromancer or Mines of Titan but they seem like settings I would enjoy.

- sound and graphics don't matter to me (they're a bonus if they're 
cleverly done, like in BT or Wasteland, but not mandatory).  I'm a fan 
of clever sound, but I don't think it would be required in an RPG.

- Not reliant on another system or rule of play.  For example, I don't 
think I'll ever play a Hobbit/LOTR game because I haven't read the 
books.  Same goes for Star Wars because I'm not really that into it. 
Original AD&D I can handle because it's simple, but the new Rev 3 games 
scare me :).

- Finally, dumb-ass fictional LONG proper nouns drive me nuts and really 
turn me off.  Text like "Making the ascension of Arrogath in the land of 
Blesmythson requires the blessing of Gorgonax the Blargnargian during 
the Time of Rhyne" in a game usually has me uninstall it within minutes. 
 :-D

So, any refinements to your suggestions?  :)

To everyone:  This is great fun, keep the suggestions coming!
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/
--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-13 Thread Jim Leonard

Pedro Quaresma wrote:
I've never bought "online items" but I don't see the problem in paying 
for things that give you a certain degree of enjoyment.
I understand, but my question was geared toward trying to understand the 
enjoyment.  For me, working hard and finally achieving a goal, beating 
an enemy, etc. is the fun part.  My confusion was in trying to 
understand the motivation of people who spend $100 or more on in-game items.

An online item can also provide enjoyment (like the example that was 
given, buying an house on UO for example) and then even be resold for a 
profit.
Yes, but given your examples, $5 for a movie or a pack of cigarettes is 
much different than $150 for a +5 enchanted sword or whatever.  I can 
understand spending $5 to see a movie but I can't fathom spending $150 
or more for an item.  So that's why I asked.
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

RE: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-13 Thread Feldhamer, Stuart




My 
remark was meant sort of tongue in cheek, and I certainly didn't mean to offend 
anyone. I'm sure there are people who would label me as a "loser" for 
collecting old computer programs (not to mention other things that I do). 
Anyway, the comment was meant in a light-hearted tone, and I apologize to Pedro, 
Stefan, and anyone else I may have offended.
 
Stuart

  -Original Message-From: Stefan Lindblom 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 
  8:01 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: 
  [SWCollect] "Modern" classics
  I agree with Pedro here for once. I was offended 
  as both a buyer and a seller. Does that make me an idiot or a loser or maybe 
  both?
   
  Many might be, I agree. But for each and every 
  case there are circumstances that should be taken into consideration. It's 
  very easy to smack a label on a person, without knowing him or 
  her.
   
  Sorry Stuart, I found that a very unnecessary 
  remark.
   
   
  /Stefan
   
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Pedro 
Quaresma 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 11:06 
    AM
    Subject: RE: [SWCollect] "Modern" 
classics
Sorry, but I find that kind 
of remark offensive. I've never 
bought "online items" but I don't see the problem in paying for things that 
give you a certain degree of enjoyment. Are tobacco smokers "losers" and "idiots"? Well they spend a fortune 
on tobacco only to see each cigar vanishing in 3 minutes or less. 
Are people that go to movies 
"losers" and "idiots"? Well, they spend a fiver to see something that it's 
over in an hour and a half. An 
online item can also provide enjoyment (like the example that was given, 
buying an house on UO for example) and then even be resold for a 
profit.I'm aware that there are 
some people that buy online items because they want to be "uber-c00l", but 
those are no different from the ones that smoke because it's 
"uber-c00l". So please don't put 
everyone inside the same bag. --Pedro R. QuaresmaSalvador Caetano IMVTDiv. Sistemas 
de Informação / Systems and Information DivisionAdministração e 
Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / Lotus Notes Administration and 
Development[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 
3492)Toyota Prius '01, Aqua Ice Opalescent, 37K km., 
"Esperanza"

  
  

  
                    
    
            
  Para: 
  "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
  A/C: Ref: cc: 
  Assunto: RE: [SWCollect] 
  "Modern" classics 
  

"Feldhamer, Stuart" 
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 12-01-2004 16:03 
  

Solicita-se resposta a 
  swcollect It's pretty obvious, isn't it? There are so 
many losers in the world. Thereare also so many idiots in the world. 
Makes a pretty powerful combination.Stuart-Original 
Message-From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 
Monday, January 12, 2004 11:00 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: 
Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classicsStefan Lindblom wrote:> 
Diablo 2 was mentioned as well.. even though I never got around to get 
the> Collectors ed while I was still playing, I guess I will do it 
someday, to> honor the game I played so much. Eventually sold off my 
accounts last week> for $290.Sorry this is a bit off-topic, 
but it's been bugging me:  Can someone explain to me the reasoning 
behind selling online stuff?  No, wait -- what I really mean is, 
can someone explain the rationale behind *buying* online accounts/items? 
 According to my research, games are fun because you actually PLAY 
them.  What motivates someone to actively seek out and purchase 
in-game items for $100, $200, or more is beyond me...-- Jim Leonard 
([EMAIL PROTECTED])World's largest electronic gaming project:   
 http://www.MobyGames.com/A delicious slice of the demoscene: 
       http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   
    
http://www.oldskool.org/--This 
message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed tothe 
swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe 
swcollect'Archives are available 
at:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/Information 
in this message reflects current market conditions and is subject to change 
without notice. It is believed to be reliable, but is not guaranteed for 
accuracy or completeness.

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-13 Thread Lee K. Seitz

Edward Franks stated:
>
>   Planetside?

Interesting game, but I don't think that's it.  IIRC, this was a
strategy game, not a first-person action game.  I guess I'll just have
to find the article again, but I really have no idea what magazine it
was in.  I'm pretty sure it was a PC game.  I *think* I read about it
around the time EverQuest was gaining popularity.

-- 
Lee K. Seitz
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-13 Thread Stefan Lindblom

I agree with Pedro here for once. I was offended as
both a buyer and a seller. Does that make me an idiot or a loser or maybe
both?
Many might be, I agree. But for each and every case
there are circumstances that should be taken into consideration. It's very easy
to smack a label on a person, without knowing him or her.
Sorry Stuart, I found that a very unnecessary
remark.
/Stefan

- Original Message -
From:
Pedro
Quaresma
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 11:06
AM
Subject: RE: [SWCollect] "Modern"
classics
Sorry, but I find that kind of
remark offensive. I've never
bought "online items" but I don't see the problem in paying for things that
give you a certain degree of enjoyment. Are tobacco smokers "losers" and "idiots"? Well they spend a fortune on
tobacco only to see each cigar vanishing in 3 minutes or less.
Are people that go to movies
"losers" and "idiots"? Well, they spend a fiver to see something that it's
over in an hour and a half. An
online item can also provide enjoyment (like the example that was given,
buying an house on UO for example) and then even be resold for a
profit.I'm aware that there are
some people that buy online items because they want to be "uber-c00l", but
those are no different from the ones that smoke because it's
"uber-c00l". So please don't put
everyone inside the same bag. --Pedro R. QuaresmaSalvador Caetano IMVTDiv. Sistemas
de Informação / Systems and Information DivisionAdministração e
Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / Lotus Notes Administration and
Development[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext.
3492)Toyota Prius '01, Aqua Ice Opalescent, 37K km.,
"Esperanza"

Para: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> A/C: Ref:
cc: Assunto: RE: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

"Feldhamer, Stuart"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 12-01-2004 16:03

Solicita-se resposta a
swcollect It's pretty obvious, isn't it? There are so many losers in the
world. Thereare also so many idiots in the world. Makes a pretty powerful
combination.Stuart-Original Message-From: Jim
Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 11:00
AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern"
classicsStefan Lindblom wrote:> Diablo 2 was mentioned as
well.. even though I never got around to get the> Collectors ed while I
was still playing, I guess I will do it someday, to> honor the game I
played so much. Eventually sold off my accounts last week> for
$290.Sorry this is a bit off-topic, but it's been bugging me:
Can someone explain to me the reasoning behind selling online stuff?
No, wait -- what I really mean is, can someone explain the rationale
behind *buying* online accounts/items? According to my research,
games are fun because you actually PLAY them. What motivates someone
to actively seek out and purchase in-game items for $100, $200, or more is
beyond me...-- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])World's largest
electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/A
delicious slice of the demoscene:
http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:
http://www.oldskool.org/--This
message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed tothe
swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe
swcollect'Archives are available
at:http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/Information
in this message reflects current market conditions and is subject to change
without notice. It is believed to be reliable, but is not guaranteed for
accuracy or completeness. Details provided do not supersede your normal
trade confirmations or statements. Any product is subject to prior sale.
CIBC World Markets Corp, its affiliated companies, and their officers or
employees, may have a position in or make a market in any security
described above, and may act as an investment banker or advisor to such.
Although CIBC World Markets Corp. is an indirect, wholly owned
subsidiary of Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce ("CIBC"), it is solely
responsible for its contractual obligations. Any securities products
recommended, purchased, or sold in any client accounts (i) will not be
insured by the FDIC, (ii)will not be deposits or obligations of CIBC,
(iii) will not be endorsed or guaranteed by CIBC, and (iv) will be
subject to

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-13 Thread Pedro Quaresma

Jim Leonard wrote:
>Pedro Quaresma wrote:
>> 
>> Please don't get me started on Planeboring: Torment. That game should 
>> never have been a RPG.

>Ah yes, Pedro, our resident RPG snob.  ;-)  If Planescape: Torment is a 
>bad RPG by your standards, could you explain why?  Is it all the dialog, 
>or bad structure, or what?

The game would make an excellent Adventure. It's got it all: a nice storyline, interesting characters, an unusual world, etc.

Unfortunately, all the RPG elements are dissapointing. The character progression (class/levels) isn't varied, the quests are mostly "fed-ex", the combat is imho annoying too..

So if you want a good Adventure with some annoying RPG aspects thrown in, please go ahead. If you're looking for an enjoyable RPG, I think you should look elsewhere.

>More importantly:  If I wanted a decent story wrapped in decent RPG 
>gameplay that isn't unreasonably hard, what RPGs over the last 20 years 
>would you recommend? No need to go into details, titles only are fine, 
>but as a relative RPG newbie I'd like to play something that isn't a 
>waste of my valuable time.

Ultima 6
Betrayal in Krondor
Quest for Glory 4

Wizardry 6 has a fantastic story but you might consider it unreasonably hard.

Lord of the Rings (Interplay, 1990) is based on the books and adds some extra quests and characters and odd twists...

>Here's a list of RPGs I've finished and enjoyed:

>Entire Pool of Radiance gold box series (all four games)

Perhaps you'd enjoy the other 5 gold box games too... I think Stefan Lindblom would recommend you the Dragonlance ones.

>Wizardry 1 (haven't tried 2-8)

If you've enjoyed Wizardry 1 then definitely you'd love Wizardry 6 and its excellent story.

>Fallout (haven't tried Fallout 2)

Fallout 2 is imho not as good.

>Wasteland (my #1 favorite game of all time)
>Arcanum

This is the 2nd Tim Cain game you mention, so perhaps you should try his latest game: Temple of Elemental Evil, released in 2003.

>Hack

If you liked Hack, I'm sure you'd love ADOM.

>I got through half of Lands of Lore 1 but never finished it.

That's a good game too.

>With that in mind, what would you recommend?

I have given perhaps too many suggestions :) I can be more specific if you tell me exactly what you enjoy the most on a RPG. Combat/story driven? Turn based/real time/phased/action combat? First person/3rd person perspective? Does good gfx/sound matter?

--
Pedro R. Quaresma
Salvador Caetano IMVT
Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division
Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / 
Lotus Notes Administration and Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)

Toyota Prius '01, Aqua Ice Opalescent, 37K km., "Esperanza"

ToyotaShopping - A sua Loja Toyota Online
http://www.toyota.pt

RE: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-13 Thread Pedro Quaresma

Sorry, but I find that kind of remark offensive.

I've never bought "online items" but I don't see the problem in paying for things that give you a certain degree of enjoyment. 

Are tobacco smokers "losers" and "idiots"? Well they spend a fortune on tobacco only to see each cigar vanishing in 3 minutes or less. 

Are people that go to movies "losers" and "idiots"? Well, they spend a fiver to see something that it's over in an hour and a half.

An online item can also provide enjoyment (like the example that was given, buying an house on UO for example) and then even be resold for a profit.

I'm aware that there are some people that buy online items because they want to be "uber-c00l", but those are no different from the ones that smoke because it's "uber-c00l".

So please don't put everyone inside the same bag.

--
Pedro R. Quaresma
Salvador Caetano IMVT
Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division
Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / 
Lotus Notes Administration and Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)

Toyota Prius '01, Aqua Ice Opalescent, 37K km., "Esperanza"

Para: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
A/C: 
Ref: 
cc: 
Assunto: RE: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

"Feldhamer, Stuart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12-01-2004 16:03

Solicita-se resposta a swcollect

It's pretty obvious, isn't it? There are so many losers in the world. There
are also so many idiots in the world. Makes a pretty powerful combination.

Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 11:00 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Stefan Lindblom wrote:
> Diablo 2 was mentioned as well.. even though I never got around to get the
> Collectors ed while I was still playing, I guess I will do it someday, to
> honor the game I played so much. Eventually sold off my accounts last week
> for $290.

Sorry this is a bit off-topic, but it's been bugging me:  Can someone 
explain to me the reasoning behind selling online stuff?  No, wait -- 
what I really mean is, can someone explain the rationale behind *buying* 
online accounts/items?  According to my research, games are fun because 
you actually PLAY them.  What motivates someone to actively seek out and 
purchase in-game items for $100, $200, or more is beyond me...
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:    http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:        http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:       http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Information in this message reflects current market conditions and is subject to change without notice. 
It is believed to be reliable, but is not guaranteed for accuracy or completeness. Details provided do 
not supersede your normal trade confirmations or statements. Any product is subject to prior sale. 
CIBC World Markets Corp, its affiliated companies, and their officers or employees, may have a position 
in or make a market in any security described above, and may act as an investment banker or advisor to such.  
Although CIBC World Markets Corp. is an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce ("CIBC"), 
it is solely responsible for its contractual obligations. Any securities products recommended, purchased, or sold in 
any client accounts 
(i) will not be insured by the FDIC, 
(ii)will not be deposits or obligations of CIBC, 
(iii) will not be endorsed or guaranteed by CIBC, and 
(iv) will be subject to risks, including possible loss of principal invested.

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

ToyotaShopping - A sua Loja Toyota Online
http://www.toyota.pt

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

On Jan 12, 2004, at 8:38 PM, Lee K. Seitz wrote:
[Snip]
Nope, that's not it, but thanks for mentioning it.  The name sounds
familiar, but that's about it.  (And tell us how you really feel, C.E.
8) )
If it helps, I remember a little bit more about the game.  You could
schedule attacks to be launched against your opponent(s) when you
weren't even online.  (They might not go as well then, though.)  Uh, I
thought I could remember more, but that seems to be it.  For all I
know it was never released in the end.
	Planetside?

--

Edward Franks

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

> >Not sure about that, but of course there was the miserable failure of
> >"Majestic" (http://www.mobygames.com/game/sheet/p,3/gameId,5282/ for
> >more info, including a review by our own CEForman)
>
> Nope, that's not it, but thanks for mentioning it.  The name sounds
> familiar, but that's about it.  (And tell us how you really feel, C.E.
> 8) )

I'd forgotten about this one...  Does it seem like I do an awful lot of
bitching about stuff?


--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

> May we say that most titles nowadays are produced in too large numbers
> to ever become collectible?

Especially most so-called "Collector's Editions".  Though it may still work
for big-name series... I've seen demand and prices for the Ultima IX Dragon
Edition holding fairly steady.


--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

> I loved Bard's Tale as well - however, I felt BT2 was kind of weak. 
> Thing is, as enjoyable as it is, BT3 probably doesn't stand up too well 
> nowadays. The emphasis is on fights with more and more monsters... I 
> still distinctly remember standing at the bridge in Malefia facing 
> something like hundreds of Death Vortexes (vortices?) as well as many 
> other groups of monsters. The NUKE spell did about 2000 damage to each 
> of them, but they had thousands and thousands of hit points, so it 
> didn't even help. And the ending was... well... easy?

Well, they did give it away in the title!  B-)


--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

As both a loser and an idiot, I was deeply offended by that statement.  B-)

- Original Message - 
From: "Feldhamer, Stuart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 10:03 AM
Subject: RE: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics


>
> It's pretty obvious, isn't it? There are so many losers in the world.
There
> are also so many idiots in the world. Makes a pretty powerful combination.
>
> Stuart
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 11:00 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics
>
>
> Stefan Lindblom wrote:
> > Diablo 2 was mentioned as well.. even though I never got around to get
the
> > Collectors ed while I was still playing, I guess I will do it someday,
to
> > honor the game I played so much. Eventually sold off my accounts last
week
> > for $290.
>
> Sorry this is a bit off-topic, but it's been bugging me:  Can someone
> explain to me the reasoning behind selling online stuff?  No, wait -- 
> what I really mean is, can someone explain the rationale behind *buying*
> online accounts/items?  According to my research, games are fun because
> you actually PLAY them.  What motivates someone to actively seek out and
> purchase in-game items for $100, $200, or more is beyond me...
> -- 
> Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
> A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
> Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/
>
>
> --
> This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
> the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
> Archives are available at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
>
> Information in this message reflects current market conditions and is
subject to change without notice.
> It is believed to be reliable, but is not guaranteed for accuracy or
completeness. Details provided do
> not supersede your normal trade confirmations or statements. Any product
is subject to prior sale.
> CIBC World Markets Corp, its affiliated companies, and their officers or
employees, may have a position
> in or make a market in any security described above, and may act as an
investment banker or advisor to such.
> Although CIBC World Markets Corp. is an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary
of Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce ("CIBC"),
> it is solely responsible for its contractual obligations. Any securities
products recommended, purchased, or sold in
> any client accounts
> (i) will not be insured by the FDIC,
> (ii)will not be deposits or obligations of CIBC,
> (iii) will not be endorsed or guaranteed by CIBC, and
> (iv) will be subject to risks, including possible loss of principal
invested.
>
> --
> This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
> the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
> Archives are available at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/


--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-12 Thread Lee K. Seitz

Jim Leonard stated:
>
>Lee K. Seitz wrote:
>> What about games that actually intrude on real life?  I remember
>> reading a description of an upcoming MMRTS that said the game (or
>> rather, your soldiers and citizens) could e-mail and/or page you if,
>> for instance, you were unexpectedly attacked.  This was a few years ago
>> and I can't remember the name of it!  Anybody know?  I believe the
>> setting of each game was a fictional planet with technology somewhere
>> in the vicinity of WWII to present, but I may be wrong.
>
>Not sure about that, but of course there was the miserable failure of 
>"Majestic" (http://www.mobygames.com/game/sheet/p,3/gameId,5282/ for 
>more info, including a review by our own CEForman)

Nope, that's not it, but thanks for mentioning it.  The name sounds
familiar, but that's about it.  (And tell us how you really feel, C.E.
8) )

If it helps, I remember a little bit more about the game.  You could
schedule attacks to be launched against your opponent(s) when you
weren't even online.  (They might not go as well then, though.)  Uh, I
thought I could remember more, but that seems to be it.  For all I
know it was never released in the end.

-- 
Lee K. Seitz
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-12 Thread BL

> Jim Leonard schrieb:
>
> > Sorry this is a bit off-topic, but it's been bugging me:  Can someone
> > explain to me the reasoning behind selling online stuff?  No, wait --
> > what I really mean is, can someone explain the rationale behind *buying*
> > online accounts/items?  According to my research, games are fun because
> > you actually PLAY them.  What motivates someone to actively seek out and
> > purchase in-game items for $100, $200, or more is beyond me...

Well since I've actually run a business in this field, I can answer that
very simply.
In many cases, the items and character you use in these games do have an
impact on the amount of fun possible - esp on PvP servers.  MANY people, I
learned,
who have demanding jobs but love games simply dont have the TONS of hours
that most MMOLRPGs require, so when they do get to play, they don't want to
spend it being a newbie.  It worked great for me, since I had no money and
all the time in the world, while my customers had the money to spend & very
limited
free time :)  A perfect match.

Brad


--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Lee K. Seitz wrote:
Marco Thorek stated:

So, it seems that besides what Edward said about people buying their
status to get an easy start, others also lose all rationalism over the
game. The game becomes more important than life itself. In those
people's minds buying anything, for whatever amount, that brings the
character forward may be justified.
What about games that actually intrude on real life?  I remember
reading a description of an upcoming MMRTS that said the game (or
rather, your soldiers and citizens) could e-mail and/or page you if,
for instance, you were unexpectedly attacked.  This was a few years ago
and I can't remember the name of it!  Anybody know?  I believe the
setting of each game was a fictional planet with technology somewhere
in the vicinity of WWII to present, but I may be wrong.
Not sure about that, but of course there was the miserable failure of 
"Majestic" (http://www.mobygames.com/game/sheet/p,3/gameId,5282/ for 
more info, including a review by our own CEForman)
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-12 Thread Stephane Racle

Good info, too bad it never happened!

As far as modern games go, I would consider some of the Tex Murphy 
adventures as classics. Overseer was a bit of a let-down (I think it was 
the first game ever on DVD, however, which makes it somewhat 
interesting), but Under A Killing Moon and The Pandora Directive are 
good. Particularly Pandora... it's actually more than good. It's an 
excellent game, and unlike many modern ones, it takes more than a day or 
two to complete! I'm not sure how much these go for on eBay, although I 
know Martian Memorandum regularly sells for $30-$50.

Jim Leonard wrote:

Stephane Racle wrote:

If I recall, the "real" sequel to Wasteland was called "Mean Time" 
and was never released. Something about the project being 
abandoned... perhaps someone here knows how much work was actually 
done on it? I'm going from memory here, I could be wrong.


You're correct; http://wasteland.rockdud.net/meantime.html has more 
info.  The project got as far as an Apple prototype.  However, it 
turned out to be "just another game using its engine, like Foutain of 
Dreams."




--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Stephane Racle wrote:

If I recall, the "real" sequel to Wasteland was called "Mean Time" and 
was never released. Something about the project being abandoned... 
perhaps someone here knows how much work was actually done on it? I'm 
going from memory here, I could be wrong.
You're correct; http://wasteland.rockdud.net/meantime.html has more 
info.  The project got as far as an Apple prototype.  However, it turned 
out to be "just another game using its engine, like Foutain of Dreams."
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-12 Thread Lee K. Seitz

Marco Thorek stated:
>
>So, it seems that besides what Edward said about people buying their
>status to get an easy start, others also lose all rationalism over the
>game. The game becomes more important than life itself. In those
>people's minds buying anything, for whatever amount, that brings the
>character forward may be justified.

What about games that actually intrude on real life?  I remember
reading a description of an upcoming MMRTS that said the game (or
rather, your soldiers and citizens) could e-mail and/or page you if,
for instance, you were unexpectedly attacked.  This was a few years ago
and I can't remember the name of it!  Anybody know?  I believe the
setting of each game was a fictional planet with technology somewhere
in the vicinity of WWII to present, but I may be wrong.

-- 
Lee K. Seitz
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-12 Thread Stephane Racle

I loved Bard's Tale as well - however, I felt BT2 was kind of weak. 
Thing is, as enjoyable as it is, BT3 probably doesn't stand up too well 
nowadays. The emphasis is on fights with more and more monsters... I 
still distinctly remember standing at the bridge in Malefia facing 
something like hundreds of Death Vortexes (vortices?) as well as many 
other groups of monsters. The NUKE spell did about 2000 damage to each 
of them, but they had thousands and thousands of hit points, so it 
didn't even help. And the ending was... well... easy? Still, a good game 
all in all. BT1 is probably the most balanced (although does anyone else 
remember Harkyn's Castle - 99 Berserkers x 4? Mind Blade would get rid 
of them all though) and the best of the series. Very atmospheric game, 
too. The music on the Apple II sounded amazing for the time...

If I recall, the "real" sequel to Wasteland was called "Mean Time" and 
was never released. Something about the project being abandoned... 
perhaps someone here knows how much work was actually done on it? I'm 
going from memory here, I could be wrong.

Howard Feldman wrote:

If you like Wasteland, you absolutely MUST try the Bard's Tale series 
(III is the best, but the others are great too) and Dragon Wars 
('Bard's Tale IV').  You might also try Fountain of Dreams, the real 
sequel to Wasteland.  You've also got another 5 gold box games to go

Entire Pool of Radiance gold box series (all four games)
Wizardry 1 (haven't tried 2-8)
Fallout (haven't tried Fallout 2)
Wasteland (my #1 favorite game of all time)
Arcanum
Hack
I got through half of Lands of Lore 1 but never finished it.

With that in mind, what would you recommend?




--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-12 Thread Marco Thorek

Jim Leonard schrieb:
> 
> Pedro Quaresma wrote:
> >
> > Please don't get me started on Planeboring: Torment. That game should
> > never have been a RPG.
> 
> Ah yes, Pedro, our resident RPG snob.  ;-)  If Planescape: Torment is a
> bad RPG by your standards, could you explain why?  Is it all the dialog,
> or bad structure, or what?

Now, that'd interest me too.

Marco

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-12 Thread Marco Thorek

Jim Leonard schrieb:
> 
> Marco Thorek wrote:
> > I'm not sure if we had this topic before, but what "modern" games, say,
> > developed after 1994, would you consider collectible?
> 
> Collectible meaning "high monetary/trade value" or "game worth owning
> until end of time because it is a *good* game"?

In this case high monetary value. I loved the Ultima series, but you
could pull my nails and I wouldn't say that U9 was a great game. Still
U9's Dragon Edition seems to be looked for.

> For "value" there are the common answers:  Ultima compilations, Elder
> Scrolls series, Neverhood.  

Elder Scrolls, ok, but "value" you'll only get for the titles before
1994. Redguard and Morrowind are already pretty common.

May we say that most titles nowadays are produced in too large numbers
to ever become collectible?  

> I just picked up CDs and manuals only (no box) for $14.  I've heard it's
> great.

Oh, definitely. You'll really be in for a treat.

Marco

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-12 Thread Marco Thorek

Jim Leonard schrieb:

> Sorry this is a bit off-topic, but it's been bugging me:  Can someone
> explain to me the reasoning behind selling online stuff?  No, wait --
> what I really mean is, can someone explain the rationale behind *buying*
> online accounts/items?  According to my research, games are fun because
> you actually PLAY them.  What motivates someone to actively seek out and
> purchase in-game items for $100, $200, or more is beyond me...

Six years ago I played a bit of UO. That was back in the time when here
in Germany there were no flatrates for internet access and you paid by
the minute. Some folks in my "guild" ran up telephone bills beyond $1000
a month. 

One guy I met in the game had started it about the same time I did and
we losely became friends through the guild. As I wasn't willing to pay
as much for playing the game as the others and didn't want to invest
that much time either, I couldn't keep up and lost interest soon enough. 

A couple months later, I still had my UO account active for some reason,
I logged back on to see what had changed during my absence. Sure enough
I met my buddy from above and he told me he now "lives" in Britannia.
And this guy was married and had a little son.

So, it seems that besides what Edward said about people buying their
status to get an easy start, others also lose all rationalism over the
game. The game becomes more important than life itself. In those
people's minds buying anything, for whatever amount, that brings the
character forward may be justified.

This also reminds of this Korean MMOPRG, where people have actual real
life fights over what happens in the game. 

Marco

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

On Jan 12, 2004, at 12:04 PM, Feldhamer, Stuart wrote:

I'm not much of an RPG gamer but I loved the original Pool of Radiance 
and
sequels. I'd say try some of the early Ultima games; they are strong on
characters, setting, and gameplay (in general). I've played and 
finished
Ultimas 3 and 5. My only complaint is they get way too difficult 
towards the
end (especially 5). I would also recommend the Baldur's Gate series.
	If you have the hard drive space and inclination there is a utility 
called BG1Tutu (Baldur's Gate 1 to 2) that allows you to play BG1 using 
the BG2 engine.  I'm playing through BG1 right now using this way.  The 
benefit is that you get the extras from BG2 (character kits, higher 
screen resolution, full screen mode, etc.).  The downside is that you 
need to have both BG1 and BG2 installed at the same time.  That's 
around 5 to 6 gigs of hard drive space.  Not much when you can now buy 
external *terabyte* drives, but if you have an older machine or use a 
laptop it can be a problem.  Interestingly enough there is also a Mac 
version of the same utility if you want to play BG1 in OS X.

--

Edward Franks

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

On Jan 12, 2004, at 11:58 AM, Jim Leonard wrote:

Pedro Quaresma wrote:
Please don't get me started on Planeboring: Torment. That game should 
never have been a RPG.
Ah yes, Pedro, our resident RPG snob.  ;-)  If Planescape: Torment is 
a bad RPG by your standards, could you explain why?  Is it all the 
dialog, or bad structure, or what?

More importantly:  If I wanted a decent story wrapped in decent RPG 
gameplay that isn't unreasonably hard, what RPGs over the last 20 
years would you recommend?
	If you like Star Wars, Knights of the Old Republic by Bioware is 
pretty good.  Without spoiling anything, I did like how they used one 
of the key plot elements.  Besides, where else can you force choke 
insolents fools?

	About Planescape, to me one of the strengths of any genre is its 
diversity.  RPGs do better when there is a variety of games to tempt 
people.  All, say, Ultima clones or Diablo clones will kill the market. 
 Just look at how Adventure games have struggled to move beyond Myst.  
Even Cyan had problems doing that.

	I want my hack-n-slash RPGs.  I want my goodie-two-shoe RPGs.  I want 
my magic-n-guns RPGs.  I want my eat-hot-photons-mutant! RPGs.  I want 
my pot-boiler D&D RPGs.  I want my quirky character driven RPG games.  
:-D

--

Edward Franks

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-12 Thread Howard Feldman

If you like Wasteland, you absolutely MUST try the Bard's Tale series 
(III is the best, but the others are great too) and Dragon Wars ('Bard's 
Tale IV').  You might also try Fountain of Dreams, the real sequel to 
Wasteland.  You've also got another 5 gold box games to go

Entire Pool of Radiance gold box series (all four games)
Wizardry 1 (haven't tried 2-8)
Fallout (haven't tried Fallout 2)
Wasteland (my #1 favorite game of all time)
Arcanum
Hack
I got through half of Lands of Lore 1 but never finished it.

With that in mind, what would you recommend?
--

Howard Feldman
Author of the Search for Freedom Computer Role-Playing Game
Visit its homepage at:  http://bioinfo.mshri.on.ca/people/feldman
--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

RE: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

I'm not much of an RPG gamer but I loved the original Pool of Radiance and
sequels. I'd say try some of the early Ultima games; they are strong on
characters, setting, and gameplay (in general). I've played and finished
Ultimas 3 and 5. My only complaint is they get way too difficult towards the
end (especially 5). I would also recommend the Baldur's Gate series.

Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 12:59 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Pedro Quaresma wrote:
> 
> Please don't get me started on Planeboring: Torment. That game should 
> never have been a RPG.

Ah yes, Pedro, our resident RPG snob.  ;-)  If Planescape: Torment is a 
bad RPG by your standards, could you explain why?  Is it all the dialog, 
or bad structure, or what?

More importantly:  If I wanted a decent story wrapped in decent RPG 
gameplay that isn't unreasonably hard, what RPGs over the last 20 years 
would you recommend?  No need to go into details, titles only are fine, 
but as a relative RPG newbie I'd like to play something that isn't a 
waste of my valuable time.  Here's a list of RPGs I've finished and enjoyed:

Entire Pool of Radiance gold box series (all four games)
Wizardry 1 (haven't tried 2-8)
Fallout (haven't tried Fallout 2)
Wasteland (my #1 favorite game of all time)
Arcanum
Hack

I got through half of Lands of Lore 1 but never finished it.

With that in mind, what would you recommend?
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Information in this message reflects current market conditions and is subject to 
change without notice. 
It is believed to be reliable, but is not guaranteed for accuracy or completeness. 
Details provided do 
not supersede your normal trade confirmations or statements. Any product is subject to 
prior sale. 
CIBC World Markets Corp, its affiliated companies, and their officers or employees, 
may have a position 
in or make a market in any security described above, and may act as an investment 
banker or advisor to such.  
Although CIBC World Markets Corp. is an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Canadian 
Imperial Bank of Commerce ("CIBC"), 
it is solely responsible for its contractual obligations. Any securities products 
recommended, purchased, or sold in 
any client accounts 
(i) will not be insured by the FDIC, 
(ii)will not be deposits or obligations of CIBC, 
(iii) will not be endorsed or guaranteed by CIBC, and 
(iv) will be subject to risks, including possible loss of principal invested.

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Pedro Quaresma wrote:
Please don't get me started on Planeboring: Torment. That game should 
never have been a RPG.
Ah yes, Pedro, our resident RPG snob.  ;-)  If Planescape: Torment is a 
bad RPG by your standards, could you explain why?  Is it all the dialog, 
or bad structure, or what?

More importantly:  If I wanted a decent story wrapped in decent RPG 
gameplay that isn't unreasonably hard, what RPGs over the last 20 years 
would you recommend?  No need to go into details, titles only are fine, 
but as a relative RPG newbie I'd like to play something that isn't a 
waste of my valuable time.  Here's a list of RPGs I've finished and enjoyed:

Entire Pool of Radiance gold box series (all four games)
Wizardry 1 (haven't tried 2-8)
Fallout (haven't tried Fallout 2)
Wasteland (my #1 favorite game of all time)
Arcanum
Hack
I got through half of Lands of Lore 1 but never finished it.

With that in mind, what would you recommend?
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/
--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Feldhamer, Stuart wrote:
Wow. I did not know that. Is the game available somewhere online for
download? The IBM version, I mean.
Most likely; as you may or may not recall, my roots are in software 
archival and preservation (which is a fancy name for something else, if 
you catch my drift) so I am known for ripping the shrinkwrap off of 
stuff just to make sure it can be distributed.  I dumped the disks using 
my option board and sent them to a colleage, where I'm pretty sure they 
were cracked and released.  Check google, maybe "retrograde station" and 
possible the-underdogs.org.

They're bootable, so you're not going to be able to play them in DOSBox. 
 Flopper, maybe.  But playing them on a real IBM PC is cool because if 
you have a CGA card with composite output, you can get between 8-16 
colors out of the game.
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-12 Thread Pedro Quaresma


Jim Leonard wrote:
>> - Planescape: Torment. Due to the lack of sales back then, hence
>> comparably small quantities are available, and the legendary status it
>> is gaining ever since, many people now seem to try to get a hold of it.
>> Personally I consider it the greatest RPG I played so far.

>I just picked up CDs and manuals only (no box) for $14.  I've heard it's 
>great.

Please don't get me started on Planeboring: Torment. That game should never have been a RPG.

--
Pedro R. Quaresma
Salvador Caetano IMVT
Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division
Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / 
Lotus Notes Administration and Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)

Toyota Prius '01, Aqua Ice Opalescent, 37K km., "Esperanza"
 
 




ToyotaShopping - A sua Loja Toyota Online
http://www.toyota.pt

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-12 Thread BL

I ran a successful business selling items for Asheron's Call for about 2
years; had a webstore and all.  I actually quit my job to do it, and I
subtracted several people to help make a great selection available at all
times.. it was fun while it lasted.  But of course, as with any online rpg,
the economy slowly gets saturated and eventually the value of most of the
"bread and butter" products drop below the point of good profit.

- Original Message - 
From: "Stefan Lindblom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics


> I usually mumble something about lazy americans with too much money on
their
> hands whenever it comes to buying online stuff :) The few people I have
sold
> the big lots to have always been very nice though, but every now and then
> one of them 14-year-olds using their mother's or sister's Ebay account
comes
> along.
>
> I guess in their eyes, games are fun when you can OWN your opponent in PvP
> or just show off all their great stuff to their friends. Hmm well, I guess
I
> liked that part as well but not the extent of buying items myself.
>
> Although I was close of buying a very well situated house in Ultima Online
> some 3 years back, gave up at $75 though. I dont know, for me it's just a
> little extra income when I finally decide to quit a game, got just as much
> when I quit UO many years back(although I did come back).
>
> /Stefan
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Jim Leonard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 5:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics
>
>
> > Stefan Lindblom wrote:
> > > Diablo 2 was mentioned as well.. even though I never got around to get
> the
> > > Collectors ed while I was still playing, I guess I will do it someday,
> to
> > > honor the game I played so much. Eventually sold off my accounts last
> week
> > > for $290.
> >
> > Sorry this is a bit off-topic, but it's been bugging me:  Can someone
> > explain to me the reasoning behind selling online stuff?  No, wait -- 
> > what I really mean is, can someone explain the rationale behind *buying*
> > online accounts/items?  According to my research, games are fun because
> > you actually PLAY them.  What motivates someone to actively seek out and
> > purchase in-game items for $100, $200, or more is beyond me...
> > -- 
> > Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> > World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
> > A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
> > Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/
> >
> >
> > --
> > This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
> > the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
> > Archives are available at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
> the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
> Archives are available at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
>


--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

On Jan 12, 2004, at 10:00 AM, Jim Leonard wrote:
Sorry this is a bit off-topic, but it's been bugging me:  Can someone 
explain to me the reasoning behind selling online stuff?  No, wait -- 
what I really mean is, can someone explain the rationale behind 
*buying* online accounts/items?  According to my research, games are 
fun because you actually PLAY them.  What motivates someone to 
actively seek out and purchase in-game items for $100, $200, or more 
is beyond me...
	Munchkinism.  Some folks want to start out at the top or have it all.  
You can't can't really buy your way into high society in most places 
('nouveau riche' is a put-down), but you can in a game.  Power-gaming 
through your pocket-book, I guess.

	For sellers it can be great.  A friend sold his UO account for enough 
to cover his two years with the game.  He figured he was ahead because 
he got to effectively enjoy himself for a couple of years for free.

--

Edward Franks

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

On Jan 12, 2004, at 9:55 AM, Jim Leonard wrote:

Edward Franks wrote:
The Roberta Williams Anthology.
Really?  How much is this going for?  Tom told me the same thing but I 
find it hard to believe...
	I've seen them go for $30 to $100.  They seem to stick in the $60 to 
$80 range.


A number of the collector's/limited editions are ok (for example, 
Baldur's Gate II, Icewind Dale II, Morrowind, or Pool of Radiance), 
but they don't elicit that "I must always have this" feeling that the 
above collector's editions do.
Pool of Radiance was a massive disappointment -- it's so terrible that 
you want to erase it and go back to the original from 1988 -- that I 
can't believe it would be considered collectable.
	PoR is the perverse collectible.  It is so bad that I think most 
people either didn't buy it or tossed it quickly away.  I was enough of 
a heat-seeker to pre-order the collector's edition.  ;-)  I'd rather 
replay the gold box games.

--

Edward Franks

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

2004-01-12 Thread Stefan Lindblom

I usually mumble something about lazy americans with too much money on their
hands whenever it comes to buying online stuff :) The few people I have sold
the big lots to have always been very nice though, but every now and then
one of them 14-year-olds using their mother's or sister's Ebay account comes
along.

I guess in their eyes, games are fun when you can OWN your opponent in PvP
or just show off all their great stuff to their friends. Hmm well, I guess I
liked that part as well but not the extent of buying items myself.

Although I was close of buying a very well situated house in Ultima Online
some 3 years back, gave up at $75 though. I dont know, for me it's just a
little extra income when I finally decide to quit a game, got just as much
when I quit UO many years back(although I did come back).

/Stefan

- Original Message - 
From: "Jim Leonard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

> Stefan Lindblom wrote:
> > Diablo 2 was mentioned as well.. even though I never got around to get
the
> > Collectors ed while I was still playing, I guess I will do it someday,
to
> > honor the game I played so much. Eventually sold off my accounts last
week
> > for $290.
>
> Sorry this is a bit off-topic, but it's been bugging me:  Can someone
> explain to me the reasoning behind selling online stuff?  No, wait -- 
> what I really mean is, can someone explain the rationale behind *buying*
> online accounts/items?  According to my research, games are fun because
> you actually PLAY them.  What motivates someone to actively seek out and
> purchase in-game items for $100, $200, or more is beyond me...
> -- 
> Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
> A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
> Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/
>
>
> --
> This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
> the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
> Archives are available at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
>
>

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

RE: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Wow. I did not know that. Is the game available somewhere online for
download? The IBM version, I mean.

Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 11:16 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Feldhamer, Stuart wrote:
> Yeah, I know. That's why I said quasi. But at least it's an official
> emulator release. BTW, I didn't know there was an IBM release of Ulysses.
> Does anyone have it? On the same note, I had heard there was an IBM
release
> of Time Zone, but I've yet to see one. Does anyone have that?

I'm pretty sure there was no IBM release of Time Zone.  I personally own 
the IBM release of Ulysses.
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Information in this message reflects current market conditions and is subject to 
change without notice. 
It is believed to be reliable, but is not guaranteed for accuracy or completeness. 
Details provided do 
not supersede your normal trade confirmations or statements. Any product is subject to 
prior sale. 
CIBC World Markets Corp, its affiliated companies, and their officers or employees, 
may have a position 
in or make a market in any security described above, and may act as an investment 
banker or advisor to such.  
Although CIBC World Markets Corp. is an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Canadian 
Imperial Bank of Commerce ("CIBC"), 
it is solely responsible for its contractual obligations. Any securities products 
recommended, purchased, or sold in 
any client accounts 
(i) will not be insured by the FDIC, 
(ii)will not be deposits or obligations of CIBC, 
(iii) will not be endorsed or guaranteed by CIBC, and 
(iv) will be subject to risks, including possible loss of principal invested.

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Feldhamer, Stuart wrote:
Yeah, I know. That's why I said quasi. But at least it's an official
emulator release. BTW, I didn't know there was an IBM release of Ulysses.
Does anyone have it? On the same note, I had heard there was an IBM release
of Time Zone, but I've yet to see one. Does anyone have that?
I'm pretty sure there was no IBM release of Time Zone.  I personally own 
the IBM release of Ulysses.
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

RE: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Yeah, I know. That's why I said quasi. But at least it's an official
emulator release. BTW, I didn't know there was an IBM release of Ulysses.
Does anyone have it? On the same note, I had heard there was an IBM release
of Time Zone, but I've yet to see one. Does anyone have that?

Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 11:05 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Feldhamer, Stuart wrote:
> Anywhere from $100-$200. This one is actually worth something to me (but
not
> that much), as it has the first quasi-IBM-releases of Mission Asteroid,
Dark
> Crystal, Mystery House, etc.

But they're just Apple .DSK images running in an emulator.  That is 
*NOT* what I would call an IBM release, not by a longshot.  There are 
actual IBM releases of Ulysses, Serenia, etc. -- those are worth something.
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Information in this message reflects current market conditions and is subject to 
change without notice. 
It is believed to be reliable, but is not guaranteed for accuracy or completeness. 
Details provided do 
not supersede your normal trade confirmations or statements. Any product is subject to 
prior sale. 
CIBC World Markets Corp, its affiliated companies, and their officers or employees, 
may have a position 
in or make a market in any security described above, and may act as an investment 
banker or advisor to such.  
Although CIBC World Markets Corp. is an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Canadian 
Imperial Bank of Commerce ("CIBC"), 
it is solely responsible for its contractual obligations. Any securities products 
recommended, purchased, or sold in 
any client accounts 
(i) will not be insured by the FDIC, 
(ii)will not be deposits or obligations of CIBC, 
(iii) will not be endorsed or guaranteed by CIBC, and 
(iv) will be subject to risks, including possible loss of principal invested.

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

RE: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

It's pretty obvious, isn't it? There are so many losers in the world. There
are also so many idiots in the world. Makes a pretty powerful combination.

Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 11:00 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Stefan Lindblom wrote:
> Diablo 2 was mentioned as well.. even though I never got around to get the
> Collectors ed while I was still playing, I guess I will do it someday, to
> honor the game I played so much. Eventually sold off my accounts last week
> for $290.

Sorry this is a bit off-topic, but it's been bugging me:  Can someone 
explain to me the reasoning behind selling online stuff?  No, wait -- 
what I really mean is, can someone explain the rationale behind *buying* 
online accounts/items?  According to my research, games are fun because 
you actually PLAY them.  What motivates someone to actively seek out and 
purchase in-game items for $100, $200, or more is beyond me...
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Information in this message reflects current market conditions and is subject to 
change without notice. 
It is believed to be reliable, but is not guaranteed for accuracy or completeness. 
Details provided do 
not supersede your normal trade confirmations or statements. Any product is subject to 
prior sale. 
CIBC World Markets Corp, its affiliated companies, and their officers or employees, 
may have a position 
in or make a market in any security described above, and may act as an investment 
banker or advisor to such.  
Although CIBC World Markets Corp. is an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Canadian 
Imperial Bank of Commerce ("CIBC"), 
it is solely responsible for its contractual obligations. Any securities products 
recommended, purchased, or sold in 
any client accounts 
(i) will not be insured by the FDIC, 
(ii)will not be deposits or obligations of CIBC, 
(iii) will not be endorsed or guaranteed by CIBC, and 
(iv) will be subject to risks, including possible loss of principal invested.

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Feldhamer, Stuart wrote:
Anywhere from $100-$200. This one is actually worth something to me (but not
that much), as it has the first quasi-IBM-releases of Mission Asteroid, Dark
Crystal, Mystery House, etc.
But they're just Apple .DSK images running in an emulator.  That is 
*NOT* what I would call an IBM release, not by a longshot.  There are 
actual IBM releases of Ulysses, Serenia, etc. -- those are worth something.
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

RE: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

If we're talking monetary value, there are tons of more games I could
mention. The market is completely insane. Starcross saucers don't fetch as
much as some of these games, such as Treasure Hunter, Alice: An Interactive
Museum, etc.

Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 10:46 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Marco Thorek wrote:
> I'm not sure if we had this topic before, but what "modern" games, say,
> developed after 1994, would you consider collectible?

Collectible meaning "high monetary/trade value" or "game worth owning 
until end of time because it is a *good* game"?

For "value" there are the common answers:  Ultima compilations, Elder 
Scrolls series, Neverhood.  For "because it's a great game" there are 
many, many more...  For example, Half-Life.  It's the most common game 
in the world but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be in a collection -- 
it's got one hell of an atmosphere and was responsible for several 
fundamental changes in the industry.  Same for Fallout, Deus Ex, and 
many more I could mention that are, fundamentally, great games.

> - Planescape: Torment. Due to the lack of sales back then, hence
> comparably small quantities are available, and the legendary status it
> is gaining ever since, many people now seem to try to get a hold of it.
> Personally I consider it the greatest RPG I played so far.

I just picked up CDs and manuals only (no box) for $14.  I've heard it's 
great.
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Information in this message reflects current market conditions and is subject to 
change without notice. 
It is believed to be reliable, but is not guaranteed for accuracy or completeness. 
Details provided do 
not supersede your normal trade confirmations or statements. Any product is subject to 
prior sale. 
CIBC World Markets Corp, its affiliated companies, and their officers or employees, 
may have a position 
in or make a market in any security described above, and may act as an investment 
banker or advisor to such.  
Although CIBC World Markets Corp. is an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Canadian 
Imperial Bank of Commerce ("CIBC"), 
it is solely responsible for its contractual obligations. Any securities products 
recommended, purchased, or sold in 
any client accounts 
(i) will not be insured by the FDIC, 
(ii)will not be deposits or obligations of CIBC, 
(iii) will not be endorsed or guaranteed by CIBC, and 
(iv) will be subject to risks, including possible loss of principal invested.

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Stefan Lindblom wrote:
Diablo 2 was mentioned as well.. even though I never got around to get the
Collectors ed while I was still playing, I guess I will do it someday, to
honor the game I played so much. Eventually sold off my accounts last week
for $290.
Sorry this is a bit off-topic, but it's been bugging me:  Can someone 
explain to me the reasoning behind selling online stuff?  No, wait -- 
what I really mean is, can someone explain the rationale behind *buying* 
online accounts/items?  According to my research, games are fun because 
you actually PLAY them.  What motivates someone to actively seek out and 
purchase in-game items for $100, $200, or more is beyond me...
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

RE: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Anywhere from $100-$200. This one is actually worth something to me (but not
that much), as it has the first quasi-IBM-releases of Mission Asteroid, Dark
Crystal, Mystery House, etc.

Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 10:55 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Edward Franks wrote:
> 
> The Roberta Williams Anthology.

Really?  How much is this going for?  Tom told me the same thing but I 
find it hard to believe...

> A number of the collector's/limited editions are ok (for example, 
> Baldur's Gate II, Icewind Dale II, Morrowind, or Pool of Radiance), but 
> they don't elicit that "I must always have this" feeling that the above 
> collector's editions do.

Pool of Radiance was a massive disappointment -- it's so terrible that 
you want to erase it and go back to the original from 1988 -- that I 
can't believe it would be considered collectable.
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Information in this message reflects current market conditions and is subject to 
change without notice. 
It is believed to be reliable, but is not guaranteed for accuracy or completeness. 
Details provided do 
not supersede your normal trade confirmations or statements. Any product is subject to 
prior sale. 
CIBC World Markets Corp, its affiliated companies, and their officers or employees, 
may have a position 
in or make a market in any security described above, and may act as an investment 
banker or advisor to such.  
Although CIBC World Markets Corp. is an indirect, wholly owned subsidiary of Canadian 
Imperial Bank of Commerce ("CIBC"), 
it is solely responsible for its contractual obligations. Any securities products 
recommended, purchased, or sold in 
any client accounts 
(i) will not be insured by the FDIC, 
(ii)will not be deposits or obligations of CIBC, 
(iii) will not be endorsed or guaranteed by CIBC, and 
(iv) will be subject to risks, including possible loss of principal invested.

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics

Edward Franks wrote:
The Roberta Williams Anthology.
Really?  How much is this going for?  Tom told me the same thing but I 
find it hard to believe...

A number of the collector's/limited editions are ok (for example, 
Baldur's Gate II, Icewind Dale II, Morrowind, or Pool of Radiance), but 
they don't elicit that "I must always have this" feeling that the above 
collector's editions do.
Pool of Radiance was a massive disappointment -- it's so terrible that 
you want to erase it and go back to the original from 1988 -- that I 
can't believe it would be considered collectable.
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/
A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/
Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings:   http://www.oldskool.org/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [SWCollect] "Modern" classics