t-and-f: Is anyone innocent?
http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-armstrong-doping&prov=ap&type=lgns The image that has always stuck in my mind is Lance Armstrong being caught and annihilated in a time trial by Miguel Indurain(not sure what year, but it was prior to his string of wins and his bout with cancer). Similar to what Armstrong did to Ulrich this year. I just can't believe that Armstrong could get to his status naturally after watching that time trial. I suggest anyone decrying their innocence submit a blood sample that would be frozen until more accurate testing is available. I wonder how many takers there would be. Ricky _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent?
He didn't do it natuarlly. He got cancer and that turned him into the rider he is today. Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Millard Financial Consulting Inc. P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com [Message delivered by NotifyLink] --Original Message-- From: "Ricky Quintana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tue, August 23, 2005 12:01 PM To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-armstrong-doping&prov=ap&type=lgns The image that has always stuck in my mind is Lance Armstrong being caught and annihilated in a time trial by Miguel Indurain(not sure what year, but it was prior to his string of wins and his bout with cancer). Similar to what Armstrong did to Ulrich this year. I just can't believe that Armstrong could get to his status naturally after watching that time trial. I suggest anyone decrying their innocence submit a blood sample that would be frozen until more accurate testing is available. I wonder how many takers there would be. Ricky _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent?
Lance has offered many times to have his blood frozen for future testing. ~mp From: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu, "Ricky Quintana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:28:29 -0400 He didn't do it natuarlly. He got cancer and that turned him into the rider he is today. Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Millard Financial Consulting Inc. P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com [Message delivered by NotifyLink] --Original Message-- From: "Ricky Quintana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tue, August 23, 2005 12:01 PM To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-armstrong-doping&prov=ap&type=lgns The image that has always stuck in my mind is Lance Armstrong being caught and annihilated in a time trial by Miguel Indurain(not sure what year, but it was prior to his string of wins and his bout with cancer). Similar to what Armstrong did to Ulrich this year. I just can't believe that Armstrong could get to his status naturally after watching that time trial. I suggest anyone decrying their innocence submit a blood sample that would be frozen until more accurate testing is available. I wonder how many takers there would be. Ricky _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent?
Lance has offered many times to have his blood frozen for future testing. ~mp From: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu, "Ricky Quintana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:28:29 -0400 He didn't do it natuarlly. He got cancer and that turned him into the rider he is today. Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Millard Financial Consulting Inc. P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com [Message delivered by NotifyLink] --Original Message-- From: "Ricky Quintana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tue, August 23, 2005 12:01 PM To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-armstrong-doping&prov=ap&type=lgns The image that has always stuck in my mind is Lance Armstrong being caught and annihilated in a time trial by Miguel Indurain(not sure what year, but it was prior to his string of wins and his bout with cancer). Similar to what Armstrong did to Ulrich this year. I just can't believe that Armstrong could get to his status naturally after watching that time trial. I suggest anyone decrying their innocence submit a blood sample that would be frozen until more accurate testing is available. I wonder how many takers there would be. Ricky _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent?
It's been suggested several times on the list that his cancer was the perfect opportunity to "conceal" the best performance enhancer of them all -- EPO -- used in cancer patients. The Discovery special about him having a heart twice the size of average people is a much more appealing sell, though. Dan --- "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > He didn't do it natuarlly. He got cancer and that turned him into the > rider he is today. > > Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., > Millard Financial Consulting Inc. > P.O. Box 367 > 96 Nelson Street > Brantford, Ontario > N3T 5N3 > Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 > Telephone: (519) 759-3511 > Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 > E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Web site: www.millards.com > > [Message delivered by NotifyLink] > > --Original Message-- > > From: "Ricky Quintana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tue, August 23, 2005 12:01 PM > To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu > Subject: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? > > > http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-armstrong-doping&prov=ap&type=lgns > > The image that has always stuck in my mind is Lance Armstrong being > caught > and annihilated in a time trial by Miguel Indurain(not sure what year, > but > it was prior to his string of wins and his bout with cancer). Similar to > > what Armstrong did to Ulrich this year. > > I just can't believe that Armstrong could get to his status naturally > after > watching that time trial. > > I suggest anyone decrying their innocence submit a blood sample that > would > be frozen until more accurate testing is available. > > I wonder how many takers there would be. > > Ricky > > _ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's > FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > > > http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent?
It's no secret that Lance Armstrong was prescribed an Epogen regimen. No need to conceal what is already stipulated fact. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004- 38,GGLD:en&q=lance+armstrong+epogen+cancer malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Kaplan Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 1:43 PM To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? It's been suggested several times on the list that his cancer was the perfect opportunity to "conceal" the best performance enhancer of them all -- EPO -- used in cancer patients. The Discovery special about him having a heart twice the size of average people is a much more appealing sell, though. Dan --- "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > He didn't do it natuarlly. He got cancer and that turned him into the > rider he is today. > > Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Millard Financial Consulting > Inc. > P.O. Box 367 > 96 Nelson Street > Brantford, Ontario > N3T 5N3 > Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 > Telephone: (519) 759-3511 > Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 > E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Web site: www.millards.com > > [Message delivered by NotifyLink] > > --Original Message-- > > From: "Ricky Quintana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tue, August 23, 2005 12:01 PM > To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu > Subject: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? > > > http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-armstrong-doping&prov=ap&type=lgns > > The image that has always stuck in my mind is Lance Armstrong being > caught and annihilated in a time trial by Miguel Indurain(not sure > what year, but it was prior to his string of wins and his bout with > cancer). Similar to > > what Armstrong did to Ulrich this year. > > I just can't believe that Armstrong could get to his status naturally > after watching that time trial. > > I suggest anyone decrying their innocence submit a blood sample that > would be frozen until more accurate testing is available. > > I wonder how many takers there would be. > > Ricky > > _ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's > FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > > > http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent?
Best performance enhancer of all? As Samuel Johnson (according to Boswell) said, "Depend upon it, sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully." Why not accept the explanation that Armstrong was a different person mentally after surviving near-fatal cancer (or was that just a cover)--not to mention the frequently cited effect of significant weight reduction on his ability as a stage racer? Just too good to be true? How does cancer "conceal" EPO use, anyway--by reducing hemoglobin to normal levels? Bill Bahnfleth At 01:43 PM 8/23/2005, Dan Kaplan wrote: It's been suggested several times on the list that his cancer was the perfect opportunity to "conceal" the best performance enhancer of them all -- EPO -- used in cancer patients. The Discovery special about him having a heart twice the size of average people is a much more appealing sell, though. Dan --- "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > He didn't do it natuarlly. He got cancer and that turned him into the > rider he is today. > > Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., > Millard Financial Consulting Inc. > P.O. Box 367 > 96 Nelson Street > Brantford, Ontario > N3T 5N3 > Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 > Telephone: (519) 759-3511 > Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 > E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Web site: www.millards.com > > [Message delivered by NotifyLink] > > --Original Message-- > > From: "Ricky Quintana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tue, August 23, 2005 12:01 PM > To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu > Subject: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? > > > http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-armstrong-doping&prov=ap&type=lgns > > The image that has always stuck in my mind is Lance Armstrong being > caught > and annihilated in a time trial by Miguel Indurain(not sure what year, > but > it was prior to his string of wins and his bout with cancer). Similar to > > what Armstrong did to Ulrich this year. > > I just can't believe that Armstrong could get to his status naturally > after > watching that time trial. > > I suggest anyone decrying their innocence submit a blood sample that > would > be frozen until more accurate testing is available. > > I wonder how many takers there would be. > > Ricky > > _ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's > FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > > > http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @ o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs _ William P. Bahnfleth, PhD, PE, Fellow ASHRAE Professor of Architectural Engineering Director, Indoor Environment Center The Pennsylvania State University 104 Engineering Unit A University Park, PA 16802 USA voice: 814.863.2076 / fax: 814.863.4789 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.arche.psu.edu/faculty/WBahnfleth/ http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/iec/ _
RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent?
I'm certainly no expert by any way of slicing it, but my understanding is that there is a very long list of banned doping substances of many types, but procedurally an athlete can also "declare" anything that is prescribed for a medical condition, and as long as it is deemed legitimate by whoever looks at those declarations, it's okay to compete with it in your system. On the surface that would seem ripe for abuse- namely by those who would exploit the medical situation (perhaps real, or perhaps a "cover") to excessively dope for performance--enhancing purposes. OR..and this is a much grayer area- Let's say somebody has a real medical condition, is prescribed stuff to take- DOES take it, and in only the prescribed dosage necessary to address the medical condition- BUT..that dosage also has side effects- namely performance enhancement. Let's say the athlete has no choice whether to take it or not- he/she has to because of the medical condition. The athlete is receiving a benefit that competitors are forbidden to share. Should the athlete be suspended from competition (not a negative connotation, just practical) until the medical condition subsides enough that the dosage can be discontinued? Should there also be a 'grace period' of additional suspension tacked on, to allow the dope to wash out of the body? Should frequent out-of-competition testing continue THROUGHOUT this time, to monitor what's going on with the athlete- and get the final 'green light' to return to competition? Right now, it would seem that most of these situations are unaddressed- they just have that procedure to 'declare it, along with a doctor's prescription, and you're clear'. And everybody knows doctor's prescriptions can be bought. Am I wrong? What am I missing here? Randy -Original Message- From: William Bahnfleth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Aug 23, 2005 4:53 PM To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? Best performance enhancer of all? As Samuel Johnson (according to Boswell) said, "Depend upon it, sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully." Why not accept the explanation that Armstrong was a different person mentally after surviving near-fatal cancer (or was that just a cover)--not to mention the frequently cited effect of significant weight reduction on his ability as a stage racer? Just too good to be true? How does cancer "conceal" EPO use, anyway--by reducing hemoglobin to normal levels? Bill Bahnfleth At 01:43 PM 8/23/2005, Dan Kaplan wrote: It's been suggested several times on the list that his cancer was the perfect opportunity to "conceal" the best performance enhancer of them all -- EPO -- used in cancer patients. The Discovery special about him having a heart twice the size of average people is a much more appealing sell, though. Dan --- "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > He didn't do it natuarlly. He got cancer and that turned him into the > rider he is today. > > Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., > Millard Financial Consulting Inc. > P.O. Box 367 > 96 Nelson Street > Brantford, Ontario > N3T 5N3 > Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 > Telephone: (519) 759-3511 > Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 > E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Web site: http://www.millards.com"; eudora="autourl">www.millards.com > > [Message delivered by NotifyLink] > > --Original Message-- > > From: "Ricky Quintana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tue, August 23, 2005 12:01 PM > To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu > Subject: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? > > > http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-armstrong-doping&prov=ap&type=lgns"; eudora="autourl"> http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-armstrong-doping&prov=ap&type=lgns > > The image that has always stuck in my mind is Lance Armstrong being > caught > and annihilated in a time trial by Miguel Indurain(not sure what year, > but > it was prior to his string of wins and his bout with cancer). Similar to > > what Armstrong did to Ulrich this year. > > I just can't believe that Armstrong could get to his status naturally > after > watching that time trial. > > I suggest anyone decrying their innocence submit a blood sample that > would > be frozen until more accurate testing is available. > > I wonder how many takers there would be. > > Ricky > > _ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's > FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm002004
RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent?
You're not missing anything Randy. Why do you think there are so many athletes these days showing up with prednisone prescriptions? Do you think that it is legitimate? malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Randy Treadway Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 6:15 PM To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? I'm certainly no expert by any way of slicing it, but my understanding is that there is a very long list of banned doping substances of many types, but procedurally an athlete can also "declare" anything that is prescribed for a medical condition, and as long as it is deemed legitimate by whoever looks at those declarations, it's okay to compete with it in your system. On the surface that would seem ripe for abuse- namely by those who would exploit the medical situation (perhaps real, or perhaps a "cover") to excessively dope for performance--enhancing purposes. OR..and this is a much grayer area- Let's say somebody has a real medical condition, is prescribed stuff to take- DOES take it, and in only the prescribed dosage necessary to address the medical condition- BUT..that dosage also has side effects- namely performance enhancement. Let's say the athlete has no choice whether to take it or not- he/she has to because of the medical condition. The athlete is receiving a benefit that competitors are forbidden to share. Should the athlete be suspended from competition (not a negative connotation, just practical) until the medical condition subsides enough that the dosage can be discontinued? Should there also be a 'grace period' of additional suspension tacked on, to allow the dope to wash out of the body? Should frequent out-of-competition testing continue THROUGHOUT this time, to monitor what's going on with the athlete- and get the final 'green light' to return to competition? Right now, it would seem that most of these situations are unaddressed- they just have that procedure to 'declare it, along with a doctor's prescription, and you're clear'. And everybody knows doctor's prescriptions can be bought. Am I wrong? What am I missing here? Randy -Original Message- From: William Bahnfleth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Aug 23, 2005 4:53 PM To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? Best performance enhancer of all? As Samuel Johnson (according to Boswell) said, "Depend upon it, sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully." Why not accept the explanation that Armstrong was a different person mentally after surviving near-fatal cancer (or was that just a cover)--not to mention the frequently cited effect of significant weight reduction on his ability as a stage racer? Just too good to be true? How does cancer "conceal" EPO use, anyway--by reducing hemoglobin to normal levels? Bill Bahnfleth At 01:43 PM 8/23/2005, Dan Kaplan wrote: It's been suggested several times on the list that his cancer was the perfect opportunity to "conceal" the best performance enhancer of them all -- EPO -- used in cancer patients. The Discovery special about him having a heart twice the size of average people is a much more appealing sell, though. Dan --- "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > He didn't do it natuarlly. He got cancer and that turned him into the > rider he is today. > > Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Millard Financial > Consulting Inc. P.O. Box 367 > 96 Nelson Street > Brantford, Ontario > N3T 5N3 > Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 > Telephone: (519) 759-3511 > Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 > E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Web site: http://www.millards.com"; eudora="autourl">www.millards.com > > [Message delivered by NotifyLink] > > --Original Message-- > From: "Ricky Quintana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tue, August 23, 2005 12:01 PM > To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu > Subject: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-armstrong-doping&prov=ap&a mp;type=lgns" eudora="autourl"> http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-armstrong-doping&prov=ap&type=lgns > > The image that has always stuck in my mind is Lance Armstrong being > caught > and annihilated in a time trial by Miguel Indurain(not sure what year, > but > it was prior to his string of wins and his bout with cancer). Similar to > > what Armstrong did to Ulrich this year. I just can't believe > that Armstrong could get to his status naturally > after > watching that time trial. > > I suggest anyone decrying their innocence submit a blood sample t
Re: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent?
A lot of asthmatics in sport too. No more narcoleptic though. malmo wrote: You're not missing anything Randy. Why do you think there are so many athletes these days showing up with prednisone prescriptions? Do you think that it is legitimate? malmo
RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent?
You can't compete with most banned substances in your system whether you have a prescription or not. If that were the case everybody would get prescriptions for steroids, many of which are legitimate pharmaceuticals. The deal with Lance is that he took the EPO as a legitimate part of his cancer therapy. Everybody knows he wasn't faking the cancer. But assuming he used EPO only legitimately, it would have been long cleared from his system, and any increase in hemoglobin levels would have returned to normal long before he resumed his racing career. The goal of medical EPO therapy is to get the hemoglobin UP TO normal levels, not above them. Legitimate use of EPO is prescribed when you are very sick and very anemic, not when you are pedaling furiously up the Alps. He would have been way too sick to compete back when he was in the EPO phase of his treatments. Kurt "Randy Treadway" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu > cc: Sent by: Subject: RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? [EMAIL PROTECTED] uoregon.edu 08/23/2005 03:15 PM Please respond to "Randy Treadway" I'm certainly no expert by any way of slicing it, but my understanding is that there is a very long list of banned doping substances of many types, but procedurally an athlete can also "declare" anything that is prescribed for a medical condition, and as long as it is deemed legitimate by whoever looks at those declarations, it's okay to compete with it in your system. On the surface that would seem ripe for abuse- namely by those who would exploit the medical situation (perhaps real, or perhaps a "cover") to excessively dope for performance--enhancing purposes. OR..and this is a much grayer area- Let's say somebody has a real medical condition, is prescribed stuff to take- DOES take it, and in only the prescribed dosage necessary to address the medical condition- BUT..that dosage also has side effects- namely performance enhancement. Let's say the athlete has no choice whether to take it or not- he/she has to because of the medical condition. The athlete is receiving a benefit that competitors are forbidden to share. Should the athlete be suspended from competition (not a negative connotation, just practical) until the medical condition subsides enough that the dosage can be discontinued? Should there also be a 'grace period' of additional suspension tacked on, to allow the dope to wash out of the body? Should frequent out-of-competition testing continue THROUGHOUT this time, to monitor what's going on with the athlete- and get the final 'green light' to return to competition? Right now, it would seem that most of these situations are unaddressed- they just have that procedure to 'declare it, along with a doctor's prescription, and you're clear'. And everybody knows doctor's prescriptions can be bought. Am I wrong? What am I missing here? Randy -Original Message----- From: William Bahnfleth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Aug 23, 2005 4:53 PM To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? Best performance enhancer of all? As Samuel Johnson (according to Boswell) said,
Re: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent?
Isn't Armstrong the youngest world champion ever in cycling? (if he was he achieved this prior to cancer) ... which would place him in a very elite class - or he was damn lucky. Post-cancer he trains at higher mileage, "the bigger heart" is pushing blood around a leaner body that is 15 pounds less than it was for his WC win weight. From a physiology standpoint, wouldn't this account for significant improvement? > http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-armstrong-doping&prov=ap&type=lgns > > The image that has always stuck in my mind is Lance Armstrong being caught > and annihilated in a time trial by Miguel Indurain(not sure what year, but > it was prior to his string of wins and his bout with cancer). Similar to > what Armstrong did to Ulrich this year. > > I just can't believe that Armstrong could get to his status naturally after > watching that time trial. > > I suggest anyone decrying their innocence submit a blood sample that would > be frozen until more accurate testing is available. > > I wonder how many takers there would be. > > Ricky > > _ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ >
RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent?
Do you have a link to the quote? Ricky Original Message Follows From: "Matt Pelletier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "Matt Pelletier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:21:27 -0400 Lance has offered many times to have his blood frozen for future testing. ~mp From: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu, "Ricky Quintana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:28:29 -0400 He didn't do it natuarlly. He got cancer and that turned him into the rider he is today. Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Millard Financial Consulting Inc. P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com [Message delivered by NotifyLink] --Original Message-- From: "Ricky Quintana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tue, August 23, 2005 12:01 PM To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-armstrong-doping&prov=ap&type=lgns The image that has always stuck in my mind is Lance Armstrong being caught and annihilated in a time trial by Miguel Indurain(not sure what year, but it was prior to his string of wins and his bout with cancer). Similar to what Armstrong did to Ulrich this year. I just can't believe that Armstrong could get to his status naturally after watching that time trial. I suggest anyone decrying their innocence submit a blood sample that would be frozen until more accurate testing is available. I wonder how many takers there would be. Ricky _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent?
I believe he mentions it in one of his books. I remember reading it somewhere, but I'm not sure where. I should also mention that an ESPN analyst brought up a good point last night. Blood degenerates over time. It can't be expected to be valid for testing purposes after a long period of time. If Lance DID have his blood frozen for future tests, couldn't he take his chances that his blood will be useless when they did come up with a test for any unknown performance enhancing drugs he may be taking? When the most tested athlete in sports wants his blood frozen for future tests, he's either clean and proud or dirty and confident. ~mp From: "Ricky Quintana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 13:38:38 + Do you have a link to the quote? Ricky Original Message Follows From: "Matt Pelletier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "Matt Pelletier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:21:27 -0400 Lance has offered many times to have his blood frozen for future testing. ~mp From: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu, "Ricky Quintana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:28:29 -0400 He didn't do it natuarlly. He got cancer and that turned him into the rider he is today. Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Millard Financial Consulting Inc. P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com [Message delivered by NotifyLink] --Original Message-- From: "Ricky Quintana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tue, August 23, 2005 12:01 PM To: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Subject: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=ap-armstrong-doping&prov=ap&type=lgns The image that has always stuck in my mind is Lance Armstrong being caught and annihilated in a time trial by Miguel Indurain(not sure what year, but it was prior to his string of wins and his bout with cancer). Similar to what Armstrong did to Ulrich this year. I just can't believe that Armstrong could get to his status naturally after watching that time trial. I suggest anyone decrying their innocence submit a blood sample that would be frozen until more accurate testing is available. I wonder how many takers there would be. Ricky _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent?
"Matt Pelletier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I should also mention that an ESPN analyst brought up a good point last > night. Blood degenerates over time. It can't be expected to be valid for > testing purposes after a long period of time. If Lance DID have his blood > frozen for future tests, couldn't he take his chances that his blood will be > useless when they did come up with a test for any unknown performance > enhancing drugs he may be taking? Whether the blood degenerates or not, of course, is irrelevant. It's pretty unlikely that blood will chemically alter itself over time to form something which chemically resembles EPO enough to fool a GC-MS. Now, whether EPO will degenerate over time given the means whereby the blood was preserved is certainly a valid question. But if they found some - I guess the answer is no. Kurt Bray still around? He could handle this one a lot better than I - usually I'm preserving samples for things like Trichloro-death ;-) Phil
RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent?
>Kurt Bray still around? Yeah, I'm still here. It depends hugely on how the specimens are stored. In general, blood and drugs present in blood will last for many years if stored at -80 degrees C. If it is stored in the -20 C freezer compartment of an ordinary fridge, I would question the stability beyond a few months. I don't know anything about the stability characteristics of EPO specifically. Kurt [EMAIL PROTECTED] Corp.comTo: t-and-f@darkwing.uoregon.edu Sent by:cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent? uoregon.edu 08/24/2005 08:32 AM Please respond to Philip_Ponebshek "Matt Pelletier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I should also mention that an ESPN analyst brought up a good point last > night. Blood degenerates over time. It can't be expected to be valid for > testing purposes after a long period of time. If Lance DID have his blood > frozen for future tests, couldn't he take his chances that his blood will be > useless when they did come up with a test for any unknown performance > enhancing drugs he may be taking? Whether the blood degenerates or not, of course, is irrelevant. It's pretty unlikely that blood will chemically alter itself over time to form something which chemically resembles EPO enough to fool a GC-MS. Now, whether EPO will degenerate over time given the means whereby the blood was preserved is certainly a valid question. But if they found some - I guess the answer is no. Kurt Bray still around? He could handle this one a lot better than I - usually I'm preserving samples for things like Trichloro-death ;-) Phil
Re: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent?
"We are extremely surprised that urine samples could have been tested in 2004 and have revealed the presence of EPO," Ayotte said in an interview with /VeloNews/ on Tuesday. "EPO - in its natural state or the synthesized version - is not stable in urine, even if stored at minus 20 degrees." http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/8746.0.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kurt Bray still around? Yeah, I'm still here. It depends hugely on how the specimens are stored. In general, blood and drugs present in blood will last for many years if stored at -80 degrees C. If it is stored in the -20 C freezer compartment of an ordinary fridge, I would question the stability beyond a few months. I don't know anything about the stability characteristics of EPO specifically. Kurt
RE: t-and-f: Is anyone innocent?
I've asked that question here on the list previously (with regard to Paula) and no one's been able to find an answer. For all we know, BALCO or some similar designer lab has run tests and determined that the applicable drug traces do not remain beyond a certain point of freezing. Unless someone has shown that frozen blood samples *do* retain what is supposed to be preserved, I don't see offers to store them for the future as being all that significant. Dan --- Matt Pelletier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I should also mention that an ESPN analyst brought up a good point last > night. Blood degenerates over time. It can't be expected to be valid > for testing purposes after a long period of time. If Lance DID have his > blood frozen for future tests, couldn't he take his chances that his > blood will be useless when they did come up with a test for any unknown > performance enhancing drugs he may be taking? When the most tested > athlete in sports wants his blood frozen for future tests, he's either > clean and proud or dirty and confident. http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
