Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker gets a UI overhaul

[Richard Fairhurst]

Martijn van Exel wrote:
> there's bound to be people slave-mapping for GMM that 
> would contribute to OSM instead if 1) they knew about 
> it or 2) it were easier to get started.

If we had more than five people coding on the main site then maybe we could
start to fix 2. ;)

We're kind of hamstrung by the fact that so few people contribute code to
the main site (by which I mean osm.org and P2), but we have thousands of
eager mappers asking these few people to improve more and more things.
Though we do try, it's difficult to tell the eager mappers "sorry, I haven't
got time to scratch your particular itch, I've got some work to do to
improve OSM's UI for new mappers".

If you'd like to help improve OSM's ease of use, and I agree that would be
terrific, Write Some Code!

cheers
Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker gets a UI overhaul

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 12/15/2011 03:45 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote:

innovating
leveraged
gamification (GMM has 'superstar mappers' I believe)
leverage


I think you're reading too much off the blurby stuff ;)

Thing is: Google has a gazillion more $$$ than we do, and they can buy 
all of Peru to do UI work for them if they please. They can, if they so 
desire, buy millions of hardware devices and ship them across the world 
for mapping, or they can set up a helpdesk in India where every single 
GMM contributor gets personalised support around the clock. They can do 
all this and more, and trying to compete with them on such a level won't 
work. (Someone said we should aim to be #1 online map provider but if 
people were to request from us even a fraction of the tiles that Google 
serves we'd blow several fuses.)


I think it is inevitable that there *will* be more GMM contributors than 
there are OSM contributors and it would be foolish to fight that (and 
foolish to even set oneself the goal).


In the long run, at least if Google doesn't lose interest or produces 
major cock-ups, OSM *will not* be the "easier to use" collaborative map. 
It will have a very hard time to be "as easy to use" as Google, and even 
that would mean to continuously bind our resources by chasing them 
rather than doing something of our own design.


I know it sounds old-school, and not at all hip and trendy, but the 
distinguishing factor between us and them is our free license and what 
you can do with our data as a result. The quirky; the "unexpected uses"; 
the interesting things that people try out if they get their hands on 
our data.


It's no use running after Google. We need to get the message across that 
we're the free alternative, and people will have to accept that we're 
not as polished as Google are. We are the project for those that 
understand "free and open". Those for whom ease of use is more important 
than the licensing of the result are not our clientele and we'll never 
be able to win them over, except by making them understand the 
importance of "free and open".


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker gets a UI overhaul

[Kev js1982]

The Google maps app, via a labs add on, allows you to download offline
vector maps! Okay they are only 10sq mi each and you are limited to 10 of
them but its still possible.

Kev
On Dec 15, 2011 3:39 AM, "Russ Nelson"  wrote:

> Tobias Knerr writes:
>  > For people who are primarily motivated by applications they can use
>  > today, rather than the potential for future applications, we're just not
>  > that attractive - at least as far as "mainstream" applications are
>  > concerned.
>
> OSMAnd. Offline vector maps. Google Maps can't touch that.
>
> --
> --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
> Crynwr supports open source software
> 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker gets a UI overhaul

[Toby Murray]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 9:35 PM, Russ Nelson  wrote:
> OSMAnd. Offline vector maps. Google Maps can't touch that.

+1

Especially with the OsmAnd update I got from the Android market a few
days ago. Offline vector rendering was functional before. Now it's
downright beautiful.


On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 1:21 PM, pec...@gmail.com  wrote:
>> 2011. gada 14. decembris 21:57 Martijn van Exel  rakstīja:
>>> We're definitely losing (potential) mappers to GMM. I don't have to
>>> tell you that's a shame -- all that effort going into creating
>>> non-free data. But how do we divert some of that energy to OSM?
>>
>> You have numbers to confirm these fears? I don't know a single living
>> being who would map for Google.
>
> I don't, and I am not trying to approach this with scientific
> scrutiny.

I can say that enough people in my city were interested in adding data
to the map that they duplicated much of the detail that I have entered
into OSM over the last 1.5 within about a month after GMM launched in
the US. It was rather depressing to me personally. I'm convinced that
it is mostly just a publicity problem. Everyone knows google. They
truly are ubiquitous. OSM is lucky to get any kind of mention on
slashdot. If google would put out a blog post and an ad campaign
telling people about OSM, I'm pretty sure the API servers would
instantly light on fire from the resulting load. When google says
anything, millions of people hear it.

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker gets a UI overhaul

[Andrew Errington]

On Thu, December 15, 2011 06:48, Tobias Knerr wrote:
> Martijn van Exel wrote:
>
>> We're definitely losing (potential) mappers to GMM. I don't have to
>> tell you that's a shame -- all that effort going into creating non-free
>> data. But how do we divert some of that energy to OSM?
>
> Well, let's ask a Map Maker user:
> http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=14666
>
>
> I'm under the impression that a large part of Google's attractiveness is
> due to their *really* high-quality applications and services. We have nice
> maps, but they have a search function that works, routing, aerial imagery,
> the ability to make your own map overlays, official smartphone apps with
> vector rendering, and so on.

Nominatim search works.
Routing works with Cloudmade and MapQuest online, and Navit (to pick one
example) offline.
OpenLayers allows us to make our own overlays.
There are some OSM supported smartphone apps, although I haven't figured
out the difference between a smartphone app and a full-featured website.

> For people who are primarily motivated by applications they can use
> today, rather than the potential for future applications, we're just not
> that attractive - at least as far as "mainstream" applications are
> concerned.

Soon the future will be today.  I am looking ahead to that point.  If we
do nothing we certainly won't get there.  It's true that every day GMM
gets better, but then, so does OSM.

Best wishes,

Andrew


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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker gets a UI overhaul

[Russ Nelson]

Tobias Knerr writes:
 > For people who are primarily motivated by applications they can use
 > today, rather than the potential for future applications, we're just not
 > that attractive - at least as far as "mainstream" applications are
 > concerned.

OSMAnd. Offline vector maps. Google Maps can't touch that.

-- 
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Crynwr supports open source software
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Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker gets a UI overhaul

[Martijn van Exel]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 1:21 PM, pec...@gmail.com  wrote:
> 2011. gada 14. decembris 21:57 Martijn van Exel  rakstīja:
>> I didn't even know that GMM had introduced peer reviewed edits,
>> apparently they did so a while ago. 'Review some contributions and get
>> yours reviewed faster' is what it told me when I logged in.
>> And now they overhauled the UI to make it that much easier to contribute.
>>
>> We're definitely losing (potential) mappers to GMM. I don't have to
>> tell you that's a shame -- all that effort going into creating
>> non-free data. But how do we divert some of that energy to OSM?
>
> You have numbers to confirm these fears? I don't know a single living
> being who would map for Google.

I don't, and I am not trying to approach this with scientific
scrutiny. GMM is here, it's innovating, it's super user friendly, and
it allows people to do pretty much the same things that we do here at
OSM -- to a certain and in many ways very limited extent, that is. I'm
willing to bet an OSM cheat mug on it - there's bound to be people
slave-mapping for GMM that would contribute to OSM instead if 1) they
knew about it or 2) it were easier to get started.

> We can improve things, for sure, but that's already happening. Peer
> review comes naturally, but if you wish you can create at least some
> mockups for similar service for OSM.

Peer review is at the core of what OSM is, and yet its power can be
leveraged in many more ways than we currently do. I know there's a lot
of resistance to gamification (GMM has 'superstar mappers' I believe)
but there I think we can learn a thing or two from online knowledge
communities that leverage the undeniable fact that there's (local)
experts who can 1) guide newcomers and 2) oversee the quality of the
(local) data and contributions. It's just not trivial to implement.
-- 
martijn van exel
geospatial omnivore
1109 1st ave #2
salt lake city, ut 84103
801-550-5815
http://oegeo.wordpress.com

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker gets a UI overhaul

[Michal Migurski]

On Dec 14, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Tobias Knerr wrote:

> Martijn van Exel wrote:
>> We're definitely losing (potential) mappers to GMM. I don't have to
>> tell you that's a shame -- all that effort going into creating
>> non-free data. But how do we divert some of that energy to OSM?
> 
> Well, let's ask a Map Maker user:
> http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=14666
> 
> I'm under the impression that a large part of Google's attractiveness is
> due to their *really* high-quality applications and services. We have
> nice maps, but they have a search function that works, routing, aerial
> imagery, the ability to make your own map overlays, official smartphone
> apps with vector rendering, and so on.
> 
> For people who are primarily motivated by applications they can use
> today, rather than the potential for future applications, we're just not
> that attractive - at least as far as "mainstream" applications are
> concerned.


I think we'll see this start to change, and soon.

All I can provide is anecdata, but I have been seeing a slow but consistent 
upward trend in new map clients asking specifically for OpenStreetMap 
cartography and mapping projects even if they don't know what that actually 
*means*, because they believe that they're about to be taken to the cleaners 
for their GMaps API usage.

GMM is improving its story but they're also 100% on the hook for providing 
those high-quality applications and services. They can accept no help in this 
regard, except by appropriating the terminology of free and open data.

-mike.


michal migurski- m...@stamen.com
 415.558.1610




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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker gets a UI overhaul

[Tobias Knerr]

Martijn van Exel wrote:
> We're definitely losing (potential) mappers to GMM. I don't have to
> tell you that's a shame -- all that effort going into creating
> non-free data. But how do we divert some of that energy to OSM?

Well, let's ask a Map Maker user:
http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=14666

I'm under the impression that a large part of Google's attractiveness is
due to their *really* high-quality applications and services. We have
nice maps, but they have a search function that works, routing, aerial
imagery, the ability to make your own map overlays, official smartphone
apps with vector rendering, and so on.

For people who are primarily motivated by applications they can use
today, rather than the potential for future applications, we're just not
that attractive - at least as far as "mainstream" applications are
concerned.

Tobias

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker gets a UI overhaul

[john whelan]

My personal view is Google is offering something that end users want to use
and is willing to accept contributions in a well thought out manner.
People understand what they are trying to do and can relate to it.

We used to have a project plan on the wall that had the step "then a
miracle occurs" before the desired result happens.  I think OSM is a bit
like that at the moment.

Yes you can use statistics to say if you have enough mappers then it is
probable that the answer will be correct however what seems to be unclear
at the moment is what are the objectives for OSM.

Different people have quite different objectives and how the data in the
map can be used or even what it can be used for doesn't seem to be well
thought out.  It seems almost a byproduct of mapping parties and until that
happens we don't have a clear simple message to communicate about what we
are doing, and if we don't have it then some one else will.

Cheerio John



On 14 December 2011 14:57, Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> I didn't even know that GMM had introduced peer reviewed edits,
> apparently they did so a while ago. 'Review some contributions and get
> yours reviewed faster' is what it told me when I logged in.
> And now they overhauled the UI to make it that much easier to contribute.
>
> We're definitely losing (potential) mappers to GMM. I don't have to
> tell you that's a shame -- all that effort going into creating
> non-free data. But how do we divert some of that energy to OSM?
>
>
> http://google-latlong.blogspot.com/2011/12/mapping-made-easier-with-new-google-map.html
>
> https://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_maps_opens_editing_process_to_everyone.php
>
> --
> martijn van exel
> geospatial omnivore
> 1109 1st ave #2
> salt lake city, ut 84103
> 801-550-5815
> http://oegeo.wordpress.com
>
> ___
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[OSM-talk] Google Map Maker gets a UI overhaul

[Martijn van Exel]

I didn't even know that GMM had introduced peer reviewed edits,
apparently they did so a while ago. 'Review some contributions and get
yours reviewed faster' is what it told me when I logged in.
And now they overhauled the UI to make it that much easier to contribute.

We're definitely losing (potential) mappers to GMM. I don't have to
tell you that's a shame -- all that effort going into creating
non-free data. But how do we divert some of that energy to OSM?

http://google-latlong.blogspot.com/2011/12/mapping-made-easier-with-new-google-map.html
https://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/google_maps_opens_editing_process_to_everyone.php

-- 
martijn van exel
geospatial omnivore
1109 1st ave #2
salt lake city, ut 84103
801-550-5815
http://oegeo.wordpress.com

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker on TED

[Michael Buege]

Zitat Valent Turkovic:

> On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:58:07 +0200, Tomas Straupis wrote:
> 
>> http://www.ted.com/talks/
> lalitesh_katragadda_making_maps_to_fight_disaster_build_economies.html
>> No comments so far...
> 
> Has anybody from OSM held a speech at TED?
[..]

Not a speech, but...

Go to 14:00.

-- 
Michael


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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker on TED

[Steve Bennett]

On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Daniel Neugebauer
 wrote:
> I heard about TED only recently and what I've read and seen about it so far
> seems like an insult - conspirative pseudo-open meetings for well-paying
> members of that strange elitist association. Talks seem to be only held by
> those members or VIPs that are invited occasionally if any. Even if I would
> tolerate all that, there would still remain a strange feeling about TED,
> something I don't like. Maybe I just don't get something but that whole
> elitarist stuff smells bad.
>
> I'd better stay away from them and go to some real open conferences and
> exhibitions instead.

Surely we can do better than "I don't know much about TED, but it
smells bad to me". By all means, hold these opinions, or post them on
the relevant website or whatever, but can we keep this mailing list a
little bit more informed than half-arsed opinions about stuff that
isn't related to OSM?

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker on TED

[Valent Turkovic]

On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 21:54:59 +0100, Daniel Neugebauer wrote:

> I'd better stay away from them and go to some real open conferences and
> exhibitions instead.

Maybe there are others OSM members who are willing to go? I agree that 
there are some elitism there but it is not only that, there are lots of 
positive points about TED also.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker on TED

[Daniel Neugebauer]

I heard about TED only recently and what I've read and seen about it so far 
seems like an insult - conspirative pseudo-open meetings for well-paying 
members of that strange elitist association. Talks seem to be only held by 
those members or VIPs that are invited occasionally if any. Even if I would 
tolerate all that, there would still remain a strange feeling about TED, 
something I don't like. Maybe I just don't get something but that whole 
elitarist stuff smells bad.

I'd better stay away from them and go to some real open conferences and 
exhibitions instead.

Bye,
Daniel

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker on TED

[Valent Turkovic]

On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 18:58:07 +0200, Tomas Straupis wrote:

> http://www.ted.com/talks/
lalitesh_katragadda_making_maps_to_fight_disaster_build_economies.html
> No comments so far...

Has anybody from OSM held a speech at TED? 
UK guys and also people from different parts of our planet can talk about 
disaster recovery using OSM. Nobody volunteered to go, or TED isn't 
interested in non-corporate projects?



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[OSM-talk] Google Map Maker on TED

[Tomas Straupis]

http://www.ted.com/talks/lalitesh_katragadda_making_maps_to_fight_disaster_build_economies.html
No comments so far...

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker - press release

[Steven Le Roux]

2008/6/26 Martijn van Exel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Op 26 jun 2008, om 00:55 heeft Richard Fairhurst het volgende
> geschreven:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > We've put together a press release with OSM (strictly speaking OSMF)'s
> > reaction to Google Map Maker.
> >
> > You can get it in PDF or RTF format at:
> > http://svn.openstreetmap.org/misc/pr_material/releases/
> >
> > The OSMF board is sending it to a few of the big tech blogs, but in
> > true OSM fashion, we'd like to crowdsource the distribution. After
> > all, the OSM community has had amazing success in getting publicity
> > recently.
> >
> > So please do:
> >
> > - download the release
> > - translate it into your language
>


Here is a french release :
http://demo21.ovh.com/96e3e9d35fd3d070667570124efd9a88P/

I am waiting on a svn account to commit it so for those interested in
correcting french version you can get it from ovh DL service...



>
> > - add any useful local statistics (e.g. 1000 roads in Nether Yvebosch
> > mapped by one man)
> > - add your contact details, if you're happy to be a media spokesperson
> > - and send it to media who you think may appreciate it!
>

I have a good mail contact which could be quoted by many others in france so
I will try it when the french version will be a final pdf version :)



-- 
Steven Le Roux
Jabber-ID : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker - press release (Richard Fairhurst)

[Phil Endecott]

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> We've put together a press release with OSM (strictly speaking OSMF)'s  
> reaction to Google Map Maker.
>
> You can get it in PDF or RTF format at:
> http://svn.openstreetmap.org/misc/pr_material/releases/

http://svn.openstreetmap.org/misc/pr_material/releases/osm_release_25062008.pdf 
currently seems to be served as a text file; you need to set its MIME 
type to something like application/pdf so that it will open in a PDF 
viewer when clicked on.  Something like "svn propset svn:mime-type 
application/pdf osm_release_25062008.pdf" should do it.


Phil.





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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker - press release

[Martijn van Exel]

Op 26 jun 2008, om 00:55 heeft Richard Fairhurst het volgende  
geschreven:

> Hi all,
>
> We've put together a press release with OSM (strictly speaking OSMF)'s
> reaction to Google Map Maker.
>
> You can get it in PDF or RTF format at:
> http://svn.openstreetmap.org/misc/pr_material/releases/
>
> The OSMF board is sending it to a few of the big tech blogs, but in
> true OSM fashion, we'd like to crowdsource the distribution. After
> all, the OSM community has had amazing success in getting publicity
> recently.
>
> So please do:
>
> - download the release
> - translate it into your language
> - add any useful local statistics (e.g. 1000 roads in Nether Yvebosch
> mapped by one man)
> - add your contact details, if you're happy to be a media spokesperson
> - and send it to media who you think may appreciate it!

Hi Richard,

I translated the release into Dutch. It's being scrutinized by my  
Dutch peers today, and I hope we'll be able to send it out to the  
Dutch press later today.

For those who can read Dutch, the draft is here: 


Take care,

Martijn
-- 
martijn van exel -+- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -+- http://www.schaaltreinen.nl/



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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker - press release

[Richard Fairhurst]

John McKerrell wrote:

> One thing I'd say about the release is we might want to mention non-UK
> places too, it mentions Brighton and pubs of England. There's the
> wikiguide of Paris too isn't there which might be worth a mention?

Good point - feel free to localise.

cheers
Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker - press release

[Richard Fairhurst]

Nic Roets wrote:

> We're bigger than them in this space, so why give them free  
> publicity ?

Again, it depends on the media, I think. It's very plausible that Big  
Media will want to report on Google Map Maker - Google is sexy in news  
terms right now; there seems to be a story about them every other day  
in the Independent. And if they're going to report on it anyway, we  
want our name in there.

cheers
Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker - press release

[John McKerrell]

On 26 Jun 2008, at 00:24, Richard Fairhurst wrote:

> Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
>> I know that dealing with the press requires a certain amount of
>> dumbing
>> down, but I do object to the phrase:
>>
>> "Volunteers for OpenStreetMap, the Wikipedia-like website which is
>> mapping the world, say ..."
>>
>> We are not "a website".
>
> Sure. It depends who you're sending the release to, really. If it's a
> tech site then "project" is good. If it's a national paper then
> "website" helps them file it with the right correspondent.

I know someone who knows Mike Butcher at Techcrunch UK so I'll pass it  
on to him.

One thing I'd say about the release is we might want to mention non-UK  
places too, it mentions Brighton and pubs of England. There's the  
wikiguide of Paris too isn't there which might be worth a mention?

I'll pass it on as-is though, it's a minor point.

John

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker - press release

[Nic Roets]

My experience says that an institution like the foundation should not
get involved in trying to give advice or otherwise comment on the
product of a competitor. The reader will either know who we are and
does not need to be informed about GMM, or the reader will think that
the press release does not tell the whole story and give GMM a chance.

We're bigger than them in this space, so why give them free publicity ?

They're going to draw users who do not know the difference between
free beer and free speech. They wouldn't bother getting it right
(rendering, routing etc).

You and Steve can say anything you like in your personal capacity. But
I think it should be a bit more positive like "OpenStreetMap responds
to Google's effort with highly detailed of Googleplex"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker - press release

[Richard Fairhurst]

Frederik Ramm wrote:

> I know that dealing with the press requires a certain amount of  
> dumbing
> down, but I do object to the phrase:
>
> "Volunteers for OpenStreetMap, the Wikipedia-like website which is
> mapping the world, say ..."
>
> We are not "a website".

Sure. It depends who you're sending the release to, really. If it's a  
tech site then "project" is good. If it's a national paper then  
"website" helps them file it with the right correspondent.

cheers
Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker - press release

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

> We've put together a press release with OSM (strictly speaking OSMF)'s  
> reaction to Google Map Maker.

I know that dealing with the press requires a certain amount of dumbing
down, but I do object to the phrase:

"Volunteers for OpenStreetMap, the Wikipedia-like website which is
mapping the world, say ..."

We are not "a website".

(I'll put the release up on the .de web site but I'll write of a
project, not a web site.)

Bye
Frederik


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[OSM-talk] Google Map Maker - press release

[Richard Fairhurst]

Hi all,

We've put together a press release with OSM (strictly speaking OSMF)'s  
reaction to Google Map Maker.

You can get it in PDF or RTF format at:
http://svn.openstreetmap.org/misc/pr_material/releases/

The OSMF board is sending it to a few of the big tech blogs, but in  
true OSM fashion, we'd like to crowdsource the distribution. After  
all, the OSM community has had amazing success in getting publicity  
recently.

So please do:

- download the release
- translate it into your language
- add any useful local statistics (e.g. 1000 roads in Nether Yvebosch  
mapped by one man)
- add your contact details, if you're happy to be a media spokesperson
- and send it to media who you think may appreciate it!

To avoid a recipient getting the release from three mappers at once, I  
suggest we co-ordinate here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Press/Release_distribution

As ever, any questions, just yell.

cheers
Richard
for OSMF

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker

[cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)]

On 2008-06-25, Michael Collinson wrote:
> [Off original topic!]
>
> Google certainly do "access" the information sent to gmail accounts
> in order to deliver targeted ads in the account holders web email
> browser. So the original post had me rushing to read the fine
> print.  I had to read it pretty carefully but access is limited to
> the following broad categories and I didn't see any obvious loopholes:
>
> formatting and delivering email; delivering advertisements and
> related links; preventing unsolicited bulk email (spam); to satisfy
> applicable law, regulation, legal process or enforceable governmental
> request; violation of Terms of Service; protect against imminent harm
> to the rights, property or safety of Google, its users or the public
> as required or permitted by law.
>
> The last two *could* perhaps be used in a heavy-handed fashion perhaps.

could? That goes for any governmental request, from any goverment (as google 
operates worldwide). Plus at this point it's already 'has' not 'could' (see 
e.g. [1]). 

I come across stories of yet another innocent finally clearing his name 
after years of legal battles and having their entire life ruined every 
couple of months (e.g. [2], [3]).

Add to that the blatant power grabbing by police and intelligence agencies 
worldwide under the banner of either or both of the two current whitchhunt 
labels: terrorism and child pornography (watch it, all reason just went out 
the window)

Not to mention things like western, supposedly democratic, governments 
abandoning legal principles like habeas corpus (US), or 'anybody is equal in 
the eyes of the law' (UK, ASBO's), or 'innocent until proven guilty' 
(western governments all over in their threatment of e.g. copyright law, 
wiretapping, and  the latest 'let's track of everybody' laws)

Personally my faith in western judicial systems and political has taken a 
extremely deep dive in the last 7 years or so, we're sliding down the 
slippery slope and I see no signs of it stopping any time soon.

[1] http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/yahoo-helps-china-jail-
dissidents/story.aspx?guid={AF751D08-EE8D-4375-9206-8F9785B37973}
[2] 
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9098598
[3] http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/TAQRFJOQP26UUVESM
-- 
Cheers, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker

[Steven Le Roux]

2008/6/25 Richard Fairhurst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Steven Le Roux wrote:
>
>  d'un point de vue strictement technique, il faut reconnaitre que
>> l'approche de map maker est meilleure que potlatch qui lui n'est pas
>> utilisable sur une machine légere sous linux. (merci flash)
>>
>
> Mais si vous detestez Flash, OpenStreetMap a un API, alors vous pouvez
> utiliser un editeur non-Flash (ex. JOSM ou Merkaartor). Google Map Maker n'a
> pas d'API - si vous n'avez pas de browser moderne, vous ne pouvez pas
> utiliser GMM.
>
> amities
> Richard
>
> p.s. talk-fr is that way >


Sorry for this cross post... actually gmail has buggued with this thread,
and has mixed all the post from all list whatsoever...

I use JOSM :) no pb for this side ;)


What I don't understand is why google don't provide this tool but interfaced
with OSM, with a special rendering to get it compliant with graphical usage
from google maps.

Why is it important for google to not provide datas ?


-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker

[Steve Hill]

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008, Nick Whitelegg wrote:

> Is there not a law against unauthorised reading of
> emails?

It isn't exactly unauthorised if you agreed to the contract when you 
signed up for the service...  Whether they can read _inbound_ emails is a 
quite different question though, since the sender did not agree to the 
contract.

  - Steve
xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.nexusuk.org/

  Servatis a periculum, servatis a maleficum - Whisper, Evanescence


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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker

[Michael Collinson]

[Off original topic!]

Google certainly do "access" the information sent to gmail accounts 
in order to deliver targeted ads in the account holders web email 
browser. So the original post had me rushing to read the fine 
print.  I had to read it pretty carefully but access is limited to 
the following broad categories and I didn't see any obvious loopholes:

formatting and delivering email; delivering advertisements and 
related links; preventing unsolicited bulk email (spam); to satisfy 
applicable law, regulation, legal process or enforceable governmental 
request; violation of Terms of Service; protect against imminent harm 
to the rights, property or safety of Google, its users or the public 
as required or permitted by law.

The last two *could* perhaps be used in a heavy-handed fashion perhaps.

Mike

http://www.google.com/a/help/intl/en-GB/users/terms.html
http://www.google.com/privacypolicy.html Google General Privacy Notice
http://mail.google.com/mail/help/intl/en_GB/privacy.html   Google 
Mail Privacy Notice




At 01:16 PM 6/25/2008, Nick Whitelegg wrote:
> >I'm using gmail. The way I read my user agreement google
> >pretty much has the right to do anything they want with
> >any information I give them. For that reason I'm careful
> >not to put anything really important in my emails.
>
>I find that very hard to believe, that a mail service operator would have
>the right to "steal" confidential
>info in your email. Is there not a law against unauthorised reading of
>emails?
>Or am I missing something?
>
>Nick


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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker

[Dave Stubbs]

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Nick Whitelegg
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>I'm using gmail. The way I read my user agreement google
>>pretty much has the right to do anything they want with
>>any information I give them. For that reason I'm careful
>>not to put anything really important in my emails.
>
> I find that very hard to believe, that a mail service operator would have
> the right to "steal" confidential
> info in your email. Is there not a law against unauthorised reading of
> emails?
> Or am I missing something?
>


Well, their Gmail T&C goes, "We will not use any of your content for
any purpose except to provide you with the Service".  I think you can
expect that none of your content should show up elsewhere, and their
privacy policy will apply to most stuff which essentially limits them
to "aggregated non-personal information". You probably have a pile of
rights beyond this, but don't expect Google to admit it.

Some people get very paranoid (not without some justification -- in
the general T&Cs it says uploading content to Google gives them a
non-exclusive right to do just about anything they want with it), but
there's a fair bit of FUD flying around as well.

Dave

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker

[Nick Whitelegg]

>I'm using gmail. The way I read my user agreement google
>pretty much has the right to do anything they want with
>any information I give them. For that reason I'm careful
>not to put anything really important in my emails.

I find that very hard to believe, that a mail service operator would have 
the right to "steal" confidential
info in your email. Is there not a law against unauthorised reading of 
emails?
Or am I missing something?

Nick

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker

[Jeffrey Martin]

I'm using gmail. The way I read my user agreement google
pretty much has the right to do anything they want with
any information I give them. For that reason I'm careful
not to put anything really important in my emails.

I'm guessing that google would have the rights to the aggregate
mapping data while any individual would only have the rights
to their own contribution, unless they access it through
google.

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 1:54 AM, X <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.google.com/mapmaker/mapfiles/s/support.html
>
> Ready ... Fight !
>
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
http://bowlad.com

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker

[Lester Caine]

SteveC wrote:
> Hum:
> 
> http://blogs.s60.com/browser/images/seriouslyIBM_l.jpg

I do wonder where we would be today if IBM had not used the worst possible 
processor ( because Intel could not sell it any where else ;) ) and then been 
conned into the the most restrictive operating system deal .

> On 24 Jun 2008, at 09:54, X wrote:
> 
>> http://www.google.com/mapmaker/mapfiles/s/support.html
>>
>> Ready ... Fight !

Not really - as long as we do not loose OSM in a sea of 'sponsored map links' ;)
Actually I am getting pretty pissed off with the results I get for a normal 
google search. Can take a number of pages to find something actually relevant 
  to a search - even changing the words used. So I would not be surprised if a 
google map search gave me hits on the other side of the world. Just another 
example of biggest definitely not being best!
And allowing people to add their own 

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
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Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker

[J.D. Schmidt]

Who are we, Apple or IBM ?
(And if the former, are you contemplating a surname-change in the near 
future ? ;)

Me personally, I'm just waiting for the iOSM device - With matching 
white gpsantenna and rechargeable batteries that can't be exchanged 
without voiding the warranty. Not that the warranty will be any use, 
since the battery will stop recharging the day after the warranty 
expired. But thats a completely different story.

;)

Dutch

SteveC skrev:
> Hum:
> 
> http://blogs.s60.com/browser/images/seriouslyIBM_l.jpg
> 
> 
> On 24 Jun 2008, at 09:54, X wrote:
> 
>> http://www.google.com/mapmaker/mapfiles/s/support.html
>>
>> Ready ... Fight !
>>
>> ___
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>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
> 
> Best
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> ___
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> 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker

[Richard Fairhurst]

Steven Le Roux wrote:

> d'un point de vue strictement technique, il faut reconnaitre que  
> l'approche de map maker est meilleure que potlatch qui lui n'est pas  
> utilisable sur une machine légere sous linux. (merci flash)

Mais si vous detestez Flash, OpenStreetMap a un API, alors vous pouvez  
utiliser un editeur non-Flash (ex. JOSM ou Merkaartor). Google Map  
Maker n'a pas d'API - si vous n'avez pas de browser moderne, vous ne  
pouvez pas utiliser GMM.

amities
Richard

p.s. talk-fr is that way >
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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker

[SteveC]

Hum:

http://blogs.s60.com/browser/images/seriouslyIBM_l.jpg


On 24 Jun 2008, at 09:54, X wrote:

> http://www.google.com/mapmaker/mapfiles/s/support.html
>
> Ready ... Fight !
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk
>

Best

Steve


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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker

[Steven Le Roux]

d'un point de vue strictement technique, il faut reconnaitre que l'approche
de map maker est meilleure que potlatch qui lui n'est pas utilisable sur une
machine légere sous linux. (merci flash)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker

[Nic Roets]

>...
> # Cyprus
> # Grenada
> # Iceland
>...

No Germany ? Looks like peoplesmap 2.0 to me !

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Re: [OSM-talk] Google Map Maker

[Victor Snesarev]

Currently Map Maker is only enabled for a few areas that (I guess) don't
have decent map data. Namely:

# Bahamas
# Barbados
# Bermuda
# British Virgin Islands
# Cayman Islands
# Cyprus
# Grenada
# Iceland
# Jamaica
# Netherlands Antilles
# Pakistan
# St. Kitts and Nevis
# St. Lucia
# St. Vincent and the Grenadines
# Trinidad and Tobago
# Vietnam



On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:54 PM, X <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> http://www.google.com/mapmaker/mapfiles/s/support.html
>
> Ready ... Fight !
>
> ___
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[OSM-talk] Google Map Maker

[X]

http://www.google.com/mapmaker/mapfiles/s/support.html

Ready ... Fight !

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