Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
On 22 September 2010 17:00, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: planned license change (we don't usually go into detail unless of course someone requests it - we just say that OSM is committed to free and open licenses always). Do they understand that may include no attribution in future? In Australia, from what I've been told, attribution is a must and there is no way any government body will accept anything less. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
Hi, John Smith wrote: planned license change (we don't usually go into detail unless of course someone requests it - we just say that OSM is committed to free and open licenses always). Do they understand that may include no attribution in future? Convincing someone to give you date is a bit like sales. We're not lying to people but we're not trying to scare them either. We're not saying things like: Do you understand that giving data to us might ruin any future business model you might think of?, and neither to we ask them to read through CC-BY-SA, ODbL, CT OSMF's articles of association (I'm sorry but I cannot accept your data before you are perfectly clear about everything...). Of course if it would be my *intent* to let such a discussion fail because of the license, scaring them away would be easy, with any license. Personally I think the share-alike component has the most potential to scare them (do you understand that if you re-incorporate any of the good stuff we add into your databases, you will have to license all of them under the following license which has been thought out by a bunch of Americans?). In Australia, from what I've been told, attribution is a must and there is no way any government body will accept anything less. Most people we've spoken to are happy if we can put out a press release that says XYZ council helps OpenStreetMap and if we have a Wiki page that confirms it. The would get that even with PD. Of course YMMV and there will always be hard cases who demand a depth of attribution that even (our fashion of) CC-BY-SA cannot give them. But that's not too bad because we don't depend on Government data; it's just a nice add-on. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
On 22 September 2010 17:30, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Convincing someone to give you date is a bit like sales. We're not lying to people but we're not trying to scare them either. We're not saying things Actually, it's a lie of omission: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie#Lying_by_omission Of course if it would be my *intent* to let such a discussion fail because There is a difference between scaring them away and giving them all the pertinent facts that may become relevant. In this case they may assume that they will always be given indirect attribution when in fact this may not be the case in future. Most people we've spoken to are happy if we can put out a press release that says XYZ council helps OpenStreetMap and if we have a Wiki page that confirms it. The would get that even with PD. Based on what you have said, I don't hold much faith in this statement, they may assume that tiles generated from OSM data would attribute OSM and in turn link back to their formal attribution by OSM, others have pointed out other situations where this may also fail. Of course YMMV and there will always be hard cases who demand a depth of attribution that even (our fashion of) CC-BY-SA cannot give them. I'm not talking about this situation, as you said, even the current license doesn't cover this situation. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
2010/9/20 Oliver osm.abala...@googlemail.com: The data can be used for any purpose (as long as it is not unlawful). Maybe I got you wrong here, but besides other legal restrictions your actions might be limited by, from the OSM point of view information and use in conjunction with illegal/unlawful actions is not prohibited. We have no rules that you cannot use our maps to plan and execute a war, we don't prohibit (unlike google for example) explicitly that you cannot map places where illegal substances or weapons are sold, and so on. I was once suggesting to prohibit military use in the CT but the echo was all different than agreeing. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
Hi, Jukka Rahkonen wrote: There can be a little problem if municipalities are also selling their geodata. For sure municipalities can use dual license for the original data This is a complex topic in itself; some governments might say you can have the data, it is for noncommercial purposes only but you said you are noncommercial...? and then you have to explain that yes, we are noncommercial but the data we collect can be used commercially... If you get something in writing, the best thing to get is something where they allow you to use their data for publication as part of OpenStreetMap. That would then include the current and any future license. Do not under any circumstances accept data that is released under CC-BY-SA as this is a dead-end that will require re-negotiation soon. but what happens if they want to update their own data with OSM user contributions? Would the whole updated dataset become share alike as well? Under both the current and the new license, yes, that would make their own data share-alike. What you can do, however, is collect errors in their data on a separate wiki page where you clearly say that the wiki page content is meant to be given to them to improve their data - then mappers who find major bugs can add these to the wiki page and the city council gets a nice list afterwards. We did that once when we got a lot of official data: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/Strassen_NRW/Unstimmigkeiten Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
On 20.09.2010 21:04, Valent Turkovic wrote: I would love to hear more positive feedback from people who have made contact between OSM and local government and/or cities. Yesterday Emilie sent a tweet that Paris is no using a bicycle routing engine based on OpenStreetMap: http://vgps.paris.fr/ Maybe she has some more insights on this case. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
On Tue, 21 Sep 2010 13:12:54 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: If you get something in writing, the best thing to get is something where they allow you to use their data for publication as part of OpenStreetMap. That would then include the current and any future license. Do not under any circumstances accept data that is released under CC-BY-SA as this is a dead-end that will require re-negotiation soon. Thank you for these tips, I'll do it that way. -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt blog: http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com linux, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless, ronjenje, pametne kuće registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic, MSN: valent.turko...@hotmail.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
On Tue, 2010-09-21 at 13:12 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: This is a complex topic in itself; some governments might say you can have the data, it is for noncommercial purposes only but you said you are noncommercial...? and then you have to explain that yes, we are noncommercial but the data we collect can be used commercially... Which is completely fair. If you represent yourself as a non-profit, you cant build up a collection of 'free' material then use it commercially. What about for example if you represented yourself as a non-profit wanting to use an artists song, but then decided to re-licence that song and sell it on a CD commercially? Its a great way to ensure no-one else ever trusts us with their data if we represent ourselves as 'non-profit' again though. If you get something in writing, the best thing to get is something where they allow you to use their data for publication as part of OpenStreetMap. That would then include the current and any future license. Do not under any circumstances accept data that is released under CC-BY-SA as this is a dead-end that will require re-negotiation soon. Wont anything in writing have to be re-negotiated soon? Unless you can convince your local government to release their data under a licence which is KNOWN will change in the not-too-distant future, once people can agree what it should be. There was a hard enough time getting governments to release data under a licence written in black and white thats been used for many years, good luck getting them to release data when (in all fairness) you have to disclose the potential upcoming licence change. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 05:44:12 +1000 David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote: That would then include the current and any future license. And that is a problem enough for current contributors, that a future licence is uncertain, so how are you going to expect others to accept it? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
David, David Murn wrote: Which is completely fair. If you represent yourself as a non-profit, you cant build up a collection of 'free' material then use it commercially. What about for example if you represented yourself as a non-profit wanting to use an artists song, but then decided to re-licence that song and sell it on a CD commercially? Its a great way to ensure no-one else ever trusts us with their data if we represent ourselves as 'non-profit' again though. I think it is quite usual for non-profits to license their output very liberally (say, PD, CC-BY, CC-BY-SA), i.e. not reqesting that their output be used non-commercially. We are definitely non-profit and we should represent ourselves as non-profit all the time, but of course you are right in saying that we need to make that clear to people we're dealing with that the work which we do in our non-profit organisation (or non-organisation) is not limited to noncommercial use. If you get something in writing, the best thing to get is something where they allow you to use their data for publication as part of OpenStreetMap. That would then include the current and any future license. Do not under any circumstances accept data that is released under CC-BY-SA as this is a dead-end that will require re-negotiation soon. Wont anything in writing have to be re-negotiated soon? No. If you get something in writing that says you can use this for OpenStreetMap then wherever OpenStreetMap goes, the data goes too. No re-negotiation necessary. We have had several such donations in Germany where data was explicitly given to us not under license A or license B but under the terms that this data may be used in OpenStreetMap, whatever their license. Actually, sometimes it is easier to convince your counterpart in government to give the data to you than to have them publish it under a license (whatever the license is). Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
On Wed, 2010-09-22 at 00:16 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: Wont anything in writing have to be re-negotiated soon? No. If you get something in writing that says you can use this for OpenStreetMap then wherever OpenStreetMap goes, the data goes too. If we cant even convince a mapping group like NearMap of that licence certainty, what chance do we have of convincing governments? This means youre asking data sources to licence their data under an unknown licence, and to just hope and trust that OSM wont change in the future (its not disputed that it WILL change in the future). No re-negotiation necessary. We have had several such donations in Germany where data was explicitly given to us not under license A or license B but under the terms that this data may be used in OpenStreetMap, whatever their license. Out of interest, has anyone asked these donators what they feel about the licence their data is under, being changed? Maybe they simply did some research at the time, found out what licence OSM is under, and agreed, assuming that there wouldnt be any drastic changes. This method may work well for data sources that are public anyway, but if the data supplier is licencing their data to other places, they need to ensure they dont lose their licenced customers who might choose to use OSM data instead of licencing from them. Actually, sometimes it is easier to convince your counterpart in government to give the data to you than to have them publish it under a license (whatever the license is). The thing is, theyre not 'giving' it to you, theyre giving you the rights/permissions to use it. They still own the data, and the rights to change the licence on it, the same way OSM owns its data and has the right to change the licence on it. Personally, Im not really fussed what the licence of OSM is, as I only have a personal interest in it. What I worry about though is that this long drawn out argument is ripping OSM apart at the seams. We've lost a number of excellent data sources in Australia due to the uncertainty with OSM licences and I worry that a lot of mappers, users and data suppliers will move on if its not resolved soon. If you want evidence of users losing interest, just look at how the traffic on the mailing lists and chat rooms has dropped in the past few weeks. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
This is a major concern of mine, which is why I won't even bother asking for local government data at the moment even though it is being offered. Some one else can do the asking and explaining about the flexible licensing we seem to be asking for because I don't want the responsibility of asking for something so open ended. The data I have added from a GPS or my own notes is quite different, I don't really care what license is put on it. If we cant even convince a mapping group like NearMap of that licence certainty, what chance do we have of convincing governments? This means youre asking data sources to licence their data under an unknown licence, and to just hope and trust that OSM wont change in the future (its not disputed that it WILL change in the future). Cheerio John ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
Hi, if I would write an NGO project for my hometown (Osijek in Croatia) that does some specific data collection of some type (like all bus stations, all cycle tracks, etc). Do I need some special permission from OSM board to do this? Second question that I have is, been there been some joint ventures between OSM and some cities/towns or local government (except Haiti)?. Has anybody gotten support from their local government or city council? On what kind of project have you been working on? We have a local NGO and would like to present OSM and ask for support, but city council would like to see how can they benefit from it. Just explaining how OSM is a great project and how it has hundreds of thousands active members won't impress them. We have one nice example as city owned transport company uses OSM maps on their website and shows trams in transit via gps. I would love to hear more positive feedback from people who have made contact between OSM and local government and/or cities. What for can local government use OSM maps and data for? Any good example would be great! Thank you in advance for your feedback, Valent. -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt blog: http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com linux, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless, ronjenje, pametne kuće registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic, MSN: valent.turko...@hotmail.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
You mean, how would the city council benefit apart from the fact they are participating in a free, powerful routable map with loads of features? Free worldwide distribution, availability on several types of equipment. Software to make everything from local restaurant guides, to routable maps with custom warnings. Besides there are thousands and thousands of volunteers doing the work for them, without getting paid, demanding no more than access to the finished works. brgds Aun Johnsen On 20/09/2010, at 16:04, Valent Turkovic wrote: Hi, if I would write an NGO project for my hometown (Osijek in Croatia) that does some specific data collection of some type (like all bus stations, all cycle tracks, etc). Do I need some special permission from OSM board to do this? Second question that I have is, been there been some joint ventures between OSM and some cities/towns or local government (except Haiti)?. Has anybody gotten support from their local government or city council? On what kind of project have you been working on? We have a local NGO and would like to present OSM and ask for support, but city council would like to see how can they benefit from it. Just explaining how OSM is a great project and how it has hundreds of thousands active members won't impress them. We have one nice example as city owned transport company uses OSM maps on their website and shows trams in transit via gps. I would love to hear more positive feedback from people who have made contact between OSM and local government and/or cities. What for can local government use OSM maps and data for? Any good example would be great! Thank you in advance for your feedback, Valent. -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt blog: http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com linux, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless, ronjenje, pametne kuće registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org . ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic, MSN: valent.turko...@hotmail.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:50:09 -0300, Aun Yngve Johnsen wrote: You mean, how would the city council benefit apart from the fact they are participating in a free, powerful routable map with loads of features? Free worldwide distribution, availability on several types of equipment. Software to make everything from local restaurant guides, to routable maps with custom warnings. Besides there are thousands and thousands of volunteers doing the work for them, without getting paid, demanding no more than access to the finished works. In short yes ;) Longer answer: I really need so spell it out to them what is the advantage for them locally. To be blunt they probably don't care what we did on Haiti or other parts of the world, but they would like to know how OSM could be used locally for our town. Project documentation is clear that they will support only projects that benefit local population. Any support we get can't be used to travel somewhere and map there, we need to collect data locally or use local data in some new and interesting ways. That is why I would like to hear from cities that are between 100,000-500,000 population on what projects have they collaborated on with their city council. As this is local (not state or EU) government the big emphasis is on local benefit. City council doesn't care too much about maps of restaurants, and we aren't such big city that we need that such specific kind of map because there are maybe 5-6 decent restaurants any everybody knows them. Cheers, Valent. -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt blog: http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com linux, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless, ronjenje, pametne kuće registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org. ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic, MSN: valent.turko...@hotmail.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
Well, the city of Vitoria (state capital of Espirito Santo, Brazil) allowed us to import their local data, giving a detailed map of the city. Now it is up to the community to fill in the blanks, that is all the data we support that wasn't present in the data we received, or adjust the data where construction work have been done after the official survey. [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?lat=-20.3058lon=-40.3027zoom=12 brgds Aun Johnsen On 20/09/2010, at 17:23, Valent Turkovic wrote: On Mon, 20 Sep 2010 16:50:09 -0300, Aun Yngve Johnsen wrote: You mean, how would the city council benefit apart from the fact they are participating in a free, powerful routable map with loads of features? Free worldwide distribution, availability on several types of equipment. Software to make everything from local restaurant guides, to routable maps with custom warnings. Besides there are thousands and thousands of volunteers doing the work for them, without getting paid, demanding no more than access to the finished works. In short yes ;) Longer answer: I really need so spell it out to them what is the advantage for them locally. To be blunt they probably don't care what we did on Haiti or other parts of the world, but they would like to know how OSM could be used locally for our town. Project documentation is clear that they will support only projects that benefit local population. Any support we get can't be used to travel somewhere and map there, we need to collect data locally or use local data in some new and interesting ways. That is why I would like to hear from cities that are between 100,000-500,000 population on what projects have they collaborated on with their city council. As this is local (not state or EU) government the big emphasis is on local benefit. City council doesn't care too much about maps of restaurants, and we aren't such big city that we need that such specific kind of map because there are maybe 5-6 decent restaurants any everybody knows them. Cheers, Valent. -- pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt blog: http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com linux, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless, ronjenje, pametne kuće registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org . ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic, MSN: valent.turko...@hotmail.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
Hi, Valent Turkovic wrote: That is why I would like to hear from cities that are between 100,000-500,000 population on what projects have they collaborated on with their city council. [...] City council doesn't care too much about maps of restaurants, and we aren't such big city that we need that such specific kind of map because there are maybe 5-6 decent restaurants any everybody knows them. 5-6 decent restaurants for 100.000 people? Are you in England or what? Jokes aside, here in Germany mappers have cooperated with the government on various scales. Almost always this was done by local groups without involvement of FOSSGIS (our would-be national OSMF chapter) or OSMF themselves; only where the government wanted a contract to be signed we sometimes involved them. That should answer your initial question (whether you need permission) - no you don't, but please make it clear that you are not the OpenStreetMap project but the local OpenStreetMap group. One successful example, albeit with a smaller city, is the aerial imagery we received from Lauf. They made their images available for tracing, and now they've got a very good city map on their web site, much better than the old one, more current, and free: http://lauf.de/index.php?mid=9 We've also received data sets of buildings from the city of Rostock in Germany, and some other places have made aerial imagery available as well. I don't know how things are in your country but one thing that many city councils are after here is specialist maps for cyclists and specialist maps for the disabled, especially wheelchair users. OSM offers an attractive path to get there; while medium-sized cities will often have the money to license ready-made maps, their money doesn't easily get them something with wheelchair info in it, or even something where they have a chance of adding wheelchair info other than having someone paste symbols onto a standard map with Illustrator. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
On 21 September 2010 01:53, Valent Turkovic valent.turko...@gmail.com wrote: I really need so spell it out to them what is the advantage for them locally. To be blunt they probably don't care what we did on Haiti or other parts of the world, but they would like to know how OSM could be used locally for our town. Project documentation is clear that they will support only projects that benefit local population. Completely agree . You need to cleverly give the benefits almost like you are convincing a business client . One thing I could give is Apart from croud sourcing , data availability you could definitely pitch for localised maps . Localised for that town council . If there is huge support from the Town council I bet we(you me or anyone) could make a huge change in the way local data is presented and harnessed by websites,print etc ! Go for it . Its a good initiative and All the best :) Regards, Pavithran -- pavithran sakamuri http://look-pavi.blogspot.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
On 20.09.2010 21:04, Valent Turkovic wrote: Hi, if I would write an NGO project for my hometown (Osijek in Croatia) that does some specific data collection of some type (like all bus stations, all cycle tracks, etc). Do I need some special permission from OSM board to do this? Just for info: there is a very nice overview of principles for opening up government data: http://sunlightfoundation.com/policy/documents/ten-open-data-principles/ The first three principles are solely in the hand of the government. The remaining depend on the framework that you use. OpenStreetMap is compliant with the remaining principles but one: OpenStreetMap uses a Attribution Share-A-Like license while the principles say that a Public Domain license would be most appropriate. I would love to hear more positive feedback from people who have made contact between OSM and local government and/or cities. What for can local government use OSM maps and data for? Any good example would be great! The data can be used for any purpose (as long as it is not unlawful). The Attribution and Share-a-like principle give you two conditions for usage: (1) you must mention the source and license of the data (Attribution) (2) if you make changes to the data and use them publicly you need to share these changes with public. Regards, Oliver (Btw: I like the riverside in Osijek) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
Aun Yngve Johnsen lists at gimnechiske.org writes: You mean, how would the city council benefit apart from the fact they are participating in a free, powerful routable map with loads of features? Free worldwide distribution, availability on several types of equipment. Software to make everything from local restaurant guides, to routable maps with custom warnings. Besides there are thousands and thousands of volunteers doing the work for them, without getting paid, demanding no more than access to the finished works. There can be a little problem if municipalities are also selling their geodata. For sure municipalities can use dual license for the original data but what happens if they want to update their own data with OSM user contributions? Would the whole updated dataset become share alike as well? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
