Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 06:04, Tobias Knerr wrote: > Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: > > Did you read the website? Here's what it says: "Adhere to the Google > > Maps terms and conditions and don't trace data into Open Street > > Map..". > > The context is important. > > Website content: > > It's been a year since I've done anything with Google WMS, but I still > > get so much hate-mail about this service.. Here's what they want me to > > say.. "Adhere to the Google Maps terms and conditions and don't trace > > data into Open Street Map.." > > So it's in quotation marks and it isn't at all presented as the author's > personal statement, it's what people sending "hate-mail" want him to > say. Putting that advice in the mouths of senders of hate-mail certainly > isn't what you do if you want to honestly want to warn people, is it? > > To the same effect, he could have written "just ignore the naggers with > their legalities and trace away". It's only insignificantly more subtle > the way he phrases it. > Thank you for bringing back the context Tobias. More context: The message is also at the bottom of the page, after scrolling past the instructions on how to add it to JOSM. At the top of the page he mentions OSM. If he was nice (unlike hate mail senders) then he could write one sentence: Although this works with OSM software it should not be uploaded to the OSM database. That would certainly avoid me sending him hate mail (not that I actually would) and think that he respected OSM so I'd give him (and his work) more respect. -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
2010/3/30 Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason : > I'm not breaking Google's TOS. Just because I give you hammer that > make me responsible for you bludgeoning someone to death with it. well, give a kid a gun and you ARE responsible (at least partially) for what happens. There's to decide whether distributing instructions and code for tracing from Googlemaps into OSM (JOSM is still mostly an OSM-app) is more like a hammer or more like a gun ;-) IMHO he could at least put the disclaimer on top of the page. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 13:04, Tobias Knerr wrote: > To the same effect, he could have written "just ignore the naggers with > their legalities and trace away". It's only insignificantly more subtle > the way he phrases it. Could have should have. Let's not forget the context here. Someone has written a useful piece of software *in his free time* for *free* which you and others to use *if you want to*, if not: don't use it. If he doesn't feel like plastering legal warnings over his webpage that's really really his business. I don't think anyone's in a position to feel self-justified in speculations about his intent. I don't mean to single you out but this sort of outlook is why he's getting hate E-Mail in the first place. Let us recall the ancient proverb: Life sucks, get a helmet. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
Hi, Tobias Knerr wrote: > So it's in quotation marks and it isn't at all presented as the author's > personal statement, it's what people sending "hate-mail" want him to > say. Putting that advice in the mouths of senders of hate-mail certainly > isn't what you do if you want to honestly want to warn people, is it? Are you trying to deny him his freedom of expression? Is he not allowed to speak his mind? Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: > Did you read the website? Here's what it says: "Adhere to the Google > Maps terms and conditions and don't trace data into Open Street > Map..". The context is important. Website content: > It's been a year since I've done anything with Google WMS, but I still > get so much hate-mail about this service.. Here's what they want me to > say.. "Adhere to the Google Maps terms and conditions and don't trace > data into Open Street Map.." So it's in quotation marks and it isn't at all presented as the author's personal statement, it's what people sending "hate-mail" want him to say. Putting that advice in the mouths of senders of hate-mail certainly isn't what you do if you want to honestly want to warn people, is it? To the same effect, he could have written "just ignore the naggers with their legalities and trace away". It's only insignificantly more subtle the way he phrases it. Tobias Knerr ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 22:15, Someoneelse wrote: > Well - there may be some jurisdiction out there dumb enough to make a > violation of some Ts & Cs an infringement of some law or other. > Unlikely, but possible, and dafter laws do get passed from time to time, > so "definitely not" is probably overstating it a tad. They tried it in the US after a girl committed suicide due to misuse of Facebook or similar sites... I think the ruling has since been repealed... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 22:10, andrzej zaborowski wrote: > people do. And if they send that guy a C&D he'll be responsible of > ceasing to distribute the tiles as well as repair damage caused (or at He's not distributing a program that breaks their TOS since he's not directly doing anything, as others have pointed you have to download the software and use it yourself to break google ToS... > least stop damage happening) to Google if they say so, which may > include informing all people who downloaded the tiles, all people who > downloaded OSM data created by tracing over them, then their People shouldn't be uploading data from sources it's not allowed to, just like you shouldn't shoot people, but it's legal in a lot of places to trade firearms, just because you buy a gun doesn't mean you can do what you like with it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 22:16, John Smith wrote: > People shouldn't be uploading data from sources it's not allowed to, They shouldn't upload data they don't have permission to upload... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
Ian Dees wrote: > We need to be careful about our words. Tracing data into OSM from any > source could be a violation of the terms of use of the service, but it > is definitely not illegal. Well - there may be some jurisdiction out there dumb enough to make a violation of some Ts & Cs an infringement of some law or other. Unlikely, but possible, and dafter laws do get passed from time to time, so "definitely not" is probably overstating it a tad. (sorry to play Captain Obvious) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 14:10, andrzej zaborowski wrote: > On 30 March 2010 13:27, John Smith wrote: >> That doesn't make something illegal and google are free to send him a >> C&D if they feel up to it, but that's civil contract law. > > Ok, so it's not automatically a crime but it's still fair to say it > isn't legal if you take obeying the TOS as a requirement which most > people do. And if they send that guy a C&D he'll be responsible of > ceasing to distribute the tiles as well as repair damage caused (or at > least stop damage happening) to Google if they say so, which may > include informing all people who downloaded the tiles, all people who > downloaded OSM data created by tracing over them, then their > customers, etc etc., and if he can't do that then the court decides > what he has to do. Oops, he's not redistributing the tiles, I misunderstood GoogleWMS as an actual WMS he hosts... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 21:53, simone gadenz wrote: > I dropped the message to the list because for me was obvious the service was > violating the term of Google's license but i was not sure it was illegal. In > any case I was worried of the implication for the OSM. Can this service be a > problem for the OSM community and in case Is OSM able to cope with this > situation to avoid future lawsuits? Some think copying names from a street directory might be harmful to OSM, but because copyright and other laws around the world aren't harmonised there is no black and white answer to this, nor will there ever be, what is legal or allowed now may not in a year from now. Some people however take a very hard line on what may cause harm to OSM, for example I was told I wasn't able to use google maps for navigation purposes while collecting GPS traces, but this makes as much sense as anyone using a street directory for navigation is violating copyright. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 13:27, John Smith wrote: > That doesn't make something illegal and google are free to send him a > C&D if they feel up to it, but that's civil contract law. Ok, so it's not automatically a crime but it's still fair to say it isn't legal if you take obeying the TOS as a requirement which most people do. And if they send that guy a C&D he'll be responsible of ceasing to distribute the tiles as well as repair damage caused (or at least stop damage happening) to Google if they say so, which may include informing all people who downloaded the tiles, all people who downloaded OSM data created by tracing over them, then their customers, etc etc., and if he can't do that then the court decides what he has to do. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 11:53, simone gadenz wrote: > I dropped the message to the list because for me was obvious the service was > violating the term of Google's license but i was not sure it was illegal. In > any case I was worried of the implication for the OSM. Can this service be a > problem for the OSM community and in case Is OSM able to cope with this > situation to avoid future lawsuits? What "service"? It's a program that /you/ download to /your/ computer and run on your own. He's not breaking any law by providing you with this program. Just because some company writes a TOS that doesn't mean they can stop anyone writing programs that interface with their websites, but of course they're fully within their rights to stop anyone accessing them. I'm sure Google's TOS say something about automatic downloads. If I provide you with this program: #!/bin/sh while true; do wget "http://google.com/search?q=$RANDOM";; done I'm not breaking Google's TOS. Just because I give you hammer that make me responsible for you bludgeoning someone to death with it. As for how we should "cope with this situation" we should do what we've always done: Ask people nicely not to trace from proprietary maps and hope they don't. Ultimately that's all we can do. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 10:38, Gregory wrote: > I think the comment he has put about hate mail is really bad though, it > makes OSM out to be a bad project/community even though it created JOSM. > Would it really hurt him to put a notice about copyright to say check out > the Google license if you make data from the maps and it is not suitable to > upload to OSM. Did you read the website? Here's what it says: "Adhere to the Google Maps terms and conditions and don't trace data into Open Street Map..". ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
I dropped the message to the list because for me was obvious the service was violating the term of Google's license but i was not sure it was illegal. In any case I was worried of the implication for the OSM. Can this service be a problem for the OSM community and in case Is OSM able to cope with this situation to avoid future lawsuits? On Mar 30, 2010, at 1:32 PM, Ian Dees wrote: > On Mar 30, 2010, at 6:08 AM, andrzej zaborowski > wrote: > >> On 30 March 2010 10:53, Gregory wrote: >>> He could keep the page and program up there but >>> should put warnings >> >> I don't think it's even legal for him to have this service? Doesn't >> google TOS prohibit both storing the tiles and republishing outside >> google's own api? >> > > We need to be careful about our words. Tracing data into OSM from any > source could be a violation of the terms of use of the service, but it > is definitely not illegal. The cops do not yet have the power to come > arrest you for a terms of use violation in any jurisdiction I know > about. The company could sue you or OSM (thus why we discourage it > strongly), but it's not illegal. > > I think a newbie coming to OSM that sees "it's illegal!!!" might be > put off by the potential for police action since. > > Of course as soon as I send this someone from Europe will tell me > their database/data collections law applies, but I don't think it > does. You're still creating a derivative work, not copying someone's > collection of data. > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On Mar 30, 2010, at 6:08 AM, andrzej zaborowski wrote: > On 30 March 2010 10:53, Gregory wrote: >> He could keep the page and program up there but >> should put warnings > > I don't think it's even legal for him to have this service? Doesn't > google TOS prohibit both storing the tiles and republishing outside > google's own api? > We need to be careful about our words. Tracing data into OSM from any source could be a violation of the terms of use of the service, but it is definitely not illegal. The cops do not yet have the power to come arrest you for a terms of use violation in any jurisdiction I know about. The company could sue you or OSM (thus why we discourage it strongly), but it's not illegal. I think a newbie coming to OSM that sees "it's illegal!!!" might be put off by the potential for police action since. Of course as soon as I send this someone from Europe will tell me their database/data collections law applies, but I don't think it does. You're still creating a derivative work, not copying someone's collection of data. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 21:08, andrzej zaborowski wrote: > I don't think it's even legal for him to have this service? Doesn't As someone else pointed out, there is nothing illegal about the code, it might be against their terms and services to use it but that's contract law, not criminal law. > google TOS prohibit both storing the tiles and republishing outside > google's own api? That doesn't make something illegal and google are free to send him a C&D if they feel up to it, but that's civil contract law. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 10:53, Gregory wrote: > He could keep the page and program up there but > should put warnings I don't think it's even legal for him to have this service? Doesn't google TOS prohibit both storing the tiles and republishing outside google's own api? Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On 30 March 2010 02:36, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: > > Is it legal to? > > * Use it in JOSM: Yes > * Edit data based on it: Yes > * Upload it to the OSM servers: No > > JOSM has the capability to use any server you want (or none at all), > not all servers are run at *.openstreetmap.org. > I didn't think of that. I know one could save it as .osm and then feed it into a renderer or other converting script. > But really, don't send people hate mail just because they enable users > to do something non-free with OSM tools. I'm sure the FSF doesn't send > people who write non-free programs with Emacs hate mail :) > I think the comment he has put about hate mail is really bad though, it makes OSM out to be a bad project/community even though it created JOSM. Would it really hurt him to put a notice about copyright to say check out the Google license if you make data from the maps and it is not suitable to upload to OSM. Hmm, I suppose if you do click the "upload to OSM" button then you need a username & password, at which point you look at what OSM is (and I think a comment about acceptable data is given near registration?). I was feeling the button was too easy to use, because my password is saved and I never get prompted to have an account. -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
El 30/03/2010 11:36, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason escribió: > I'm sure the FSF doesn't send people who write non-free programs with > Emacs hate mail :) You should attend a lecture by Richard Stallman :-P -- Iván Sánchez Ortega ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 08:28, simone gadenz wrote: > I have just come across this WMS service providing google maps background for > OSM editing. Is it legal? > > http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/ Is it legal to? * Use it in JOSM: Yes * Edit data based on it: Yes * Upload it to the OSM servers: No I've used this extension with good results for producing derived work from Google Maps + OSM for my own use, of course I didn't upload it to OSM once I was done. JOSM has the capability to use any server you want (or none at all), not all servers are run at *.openstreetmap.org. As OSM becomes more popular more people are going to use the .osm format and editing tools built for OSM for non-OSM uses. It would be useful if we could accommodate these uses by e.g. making plugins like these part of the official JOSM plugin directory. Of course there would also have to be other changes like some way of having WMS layers register that they're unsuitable for being uploaded to OSM and a way of marking data as having been edited with some given WMS as a backdrop. But really, don't send people hate mail just because they enable users to do something non-free with OSM tools. I'm sure the FSF doesn't send people who write non-free programs with Emacs hate mail :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
simone gadenz wrote: > I have just come across this WMS service providing google maps > background for OSM editing. Is it legal? > > http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/ No. You must not use Google as a source for OSM. This would be a breach of Google's terms of use, it would taint OSM's data and it would expose OSM to liability. Please don't do it. As the Google Maps WMS Server's administrator himselfs says : "Adhere to the Google Maps terms and conditions and don't trace data into Open Street Map". ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
Definitely not. See the last note on the page: It's been a year since I've done anything with Google WMS, but I still get so much hate-mail about this service.. Here's what they want me to say.. "Adhere to the Google Maps terms and conditions and don't trace data into Open Street Map.." Yet in his instructions he is clearly making the primary aim to use it in JOSM and trace information. He could keep the page and program up there but should put warnings (especially at the top of the page) to say it is for experimentation or personal(private) use and not to upload to the OSM servers. On 30 March 2010 01:28, simone gadenz wrote: > I have just come across this WMS service providing google maps background > for OSM editing. Is it legal? > > http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/ > > Cheers > > S > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Google WMS: is this legal?
El 30/03/2010 10:28, simone gadenz escribió: > I have just come across this WMS service providing google maps > background for OSM editing. Is it legal? > > http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/ Scroll down and you'll find this piece of text: " It's been a year since I've done anything with Google WMS, but I still get so much hate-mail about this service.. Here's what they want me to say.. "Adhere to the Google Maps terms and conditions and don't trace data into Open Street Map.." " That should answer your question. Cheers, -- Iván Sánchez Ortega ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
Hi, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: > perhaps the welcome screen of JOSM could point out which WMSs can be used. > Yes, I know newbies should read the docs, but goog is all pervasive and it's > the first thing they turn to when it comes to maps. Which WMSes would that be, and who would be the person to decide what's in and what's out? For example, I personally think that OpenAerialMap is a perfectly suitable source to trace objects from. Others say OpenAerialMap is evil because it cannot be ruled out that people georeference stuff they upload to OAM with Google. And I would not want to overrule anyone: If YOU feel it is not ok to trace from OAM, then don't do it. If YOU feel it is ok, then feel free to do so. Don't ask JOSM whether it's ok or not. Even tracing from Google images is ok (according to Ed Parsons @ SOTM '08) as long as you have a sufficiently strong relationship with the area you're tracing, e.g. you have travelled down the Amazonas in a canoe and now trace your journey or so. We're unlikely to be able to list all "allowed" WMSes. We might single out a few that are certainly "not allowed" but then this would only make people think that everything else must be ok! The constant part of the JOSM startup screen is here: http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/MessageOfTheDay%3E%3D1 freely editable in a trac wiki without having to register. If you feel the need to change the message "Don't copy from other maps" to something else (or replace the "golden rules" paragraph by something better altogether), feel free to do so. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
On Thursday 25 Dec 2008 4:17:47 pm Frederik Ramm wrote: > Especially as this would be another move to try and take responsibility > away from the user: "Hey, the OSM server didn't complain when I hit > upload, so it must have been ok!" - I am very muc hin favour of grown-up > users and a system that relies on them, rather than a system that > assumes nobody can be trusted because they're either malevolent or > irresponsible. perhaps the welcome screen of JOSM could point out which WMSs can be used. Yes, I know newbies should read the docs, but goog is all pervasive and it's the first thing they turn to when it comes to maps. -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
Hi, Simon Ward wrote: > On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 01:22:22AM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote: >>> A possible consideration for a future API is to move the check there: >>> JOSM uploads, and indicates what data sources were used in the editing >>> session. Server checks, sees GoogleWMS, replies “I’m sorry Dave, I’m >>> afraid I can’t do that.” >> And slap some control freak crypto onto that so that nobody can >> circumvent it? > > And you missed the point of it in almost exactly the same way Pieren > did. Might be an indication of a point not made clear enough. I might have over-reacted but I am very sensitive in this department. We have this cool, free, open project and still every now and then I sense a desire with people to exert control, to make sure nobody behaves against the rules even if this comes at the expense of infringing freedom and implementing a "guilty until proven innocent" principle. Your posting in particular did not lend itself to this conclusion but there have been others in the past that actually reminded me of numerous political rebels of history who fought for liberation from autocratic rule and ended up being the most inhuman dictators themselves. Your posting at least suggested that JOSM should, by default, tell the server something about how the user arrived at whatever he's uploading. I do support this in principle; I have already suggested setting a "source" tag for the changegroup based on what WMS images were displayed in the background - but this will, of course, always happen in a way where the user can see and modify this information before it gets transmitted to the server. The "Google WMS" discussed here would show up under whatever name was specified by the user when s/he added it to the WMS menu, and it would thus be very difficult to implement a server "check" for this. Especially as this would be another move to try and take responsibility away from the user: "Hey, the OSM server didn't complain when I hit upload, so it must have been ok!" - I am very muc hin favour of grown-up users and a system that relies on them, rather than a system that assumes nobody can be trusted because they're either malevolent or irresponsible. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
On Thu, Dec 25, 2008 at 01:22:22AM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > A possible consideration for a future API is to move the check there: > > JOSM uploads, and indicates what data sources were used in the editing > > session. Server checks, sees GoogleWMS, replies “I’m sorry Dave, I’m > > afraid I can’t do that.” > > And slap some control freak crypto onto that so that nobody can > circumvent it? And you missed the point of it in almost exactly the same way Pieren did. I never mentioned application signing or anything else like that. Trying to prevent people from circumventing such a measure is going to be extremely futile. I suggest you read my other reply before spouting off again. Merry Christmas, Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
Hi, Pieren wrote: > On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 1:09 PM, Thomas Wood > wrote: >> Frederik does make a good point that it could be used for good. > > I'm probably stupid but what is the aim of having google maps layers > in JOSM - one editor for OSM data - excepted for copy ? You're not stupid -- you just haven't taken the time to read my post to which Thomas Wood referred above and, in consequence, wrote your posting based on a false assumption. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
Hi, Simon Ward wrote: > A possible consideration for a future API is to move the check there: > JOSM uploads, and indicates what data sources were used in the editing > session. Server checks, sees GoogleWMS, replies “I’m sorry Dave, I’m > afraid I can’t do that.” And slap some control freak crypto onto that so that nobody can circumvent it? Only authorized clients may connect? Please get in line and get your application signed by the OSM cleanliness squad? No thanks. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
2008/12/24 Pieren : > On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 1:09 PM, Thomas Wood > wrote: >> Frederik does make a good point that it could be used for good. > > I'm probably stupid but what is the aim of having google maps layers > in JOSM - one editor for OSM data - excepted for copy ? > I still see why people create online mashups where we can compare > gmaps and OSM. But here we are inside an editor... > Pieren > The point was in reusing the code for other tiled service providers, such as OSM itelf or the excellent NPE tiles. -- Regards, Thomas Wood (Edgemaster) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Pieren wrote: > On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 1:09 PM, Thomas Wood > wrote: >> Frederik does make a good point that it could be used for good. > > I'm probably stupid but what is the aim of having google maps layers > in JOSM - one editor for OSM data - excepted for copy ? > I still see why people create online mashups where we can compare > gmaps and OSM. But here we are inside an editor... That probably is the point. Not an issue in itself however, I've used JOSM in the past to derive data from various non-free sources for my own personal use; I didn't upload it to OSM however which is the point at which my editing patterns would have become a problem for the project, but no earlier. The tools built around this project get used for more than OSM itself. Actively working on restricting their use in conjunction with non-free data under any circumstance will most likely be futile in the long run compared to educating the userbase; especially as such use may be perfectly legitimate. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 4:15 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: > have you put google-earth traced data in OSM? > No. - Gustav ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
On Wednesday 24 Dec 2008 7:44:14 pm Gustav Foseid wrote: > In addition, I have had a hard time finding anything in Google Earth terms > that limits tracing, as opposed to Google Maps where this is stated very > clearly. have you put google-earth traced data in OSM? -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 03:14:14PM +0100, Gustav Foseid wrote: > In addition, I have had a hard time finding anything in Google Earth terms > that limits tracing, as opposed to Google Maps where this is stated very > clearly. Just searching for “google earth terms of service” gives (among other hits), a combined “Google Maps/Earth Terms of Service” that clearly restricts the making of derivative works[1]. [1]: http://maps.google.com/help/terms_maps.html -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 03:14:14PM +0100, Gustav Foseid wrote: > On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Simon Ward wrote: > > > Hard validation wasn't the point. The point was to make the user think > > twice, just as with Richard's comment on using GPSBabel to convert KML > > to GPX, then having to munge it to add timestamps. You can bypass such > > a check in the editor just as easily, but either method allows the > > editor to tell the user why there's a problem. > > Let us not make this a KML-problem. Nobody was. Please see the comment in the email referred to earlier in the thread about trying to upload GPX traces converted from KML. The email was about importing KML: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2008-September/011891.html Now I think there’s a valid point about most KML being from Google, but we’re not actually talking about KML in this thread, we’re talking about using GoogleWMS to derive from Google data. Please don’t detract from the point of my mail about having a check to prevent uploads of data known to be from Google (or another source that has incompatible terms, let’s not just discriminate against Google). The thread itself started with the subject of GoogleWMS, so I’m not the one turning it into a KML problem here. ☺ Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Simon Ward wrote: > Hard validation wasn't the point. The point was to make the user think > twice, just as with Richard's comment on using GPSBabel to convert KML > to GPX, then having to munge it to add timestamps. You can bypass such > a check in the editor just as easily, but either method allows the > editor to tell the user why there's a problem. Let us not make this a KML-problem. It is a nice format to work with, well supported and with more features than GPX. All the work I have done with the international borders of Norway, have been based around KML, for a number of reasons (the two most important, being the ability to assign colors to markers and a good client to visualize the data in). In addition, I have had a hard time finding anything in Google Earth terms that limits tracing, as opposed to Google Maps where this is stated very clearly. - Gustav ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 02:34:13PM +0100, Pieren wrote: > On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Simon Ward wrote: > > A possible consideration for a future API is to move the check there: > > JOSM uploads, and indicates what data sources were used in the editing > > session. Server checks, sees GoogleWMS, replies "I'm sorry Dave, I'm > > afraid I can't do that." > > Too easy to bypass : save data into file, reload the file then upload. Hard validation wasn’t the point. The point was to make the user think twice, just as with Richard’s comment on using GPSBabel to convert KML to GPX, then having to munge it to add timestamps. You can bypass such a check in the editor just as easily, but either method allows the editor to tell the user why there’s a problem. Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 2:19 PM, Simon Ward wrote: > A possible consideration for a future API is to move the check there: > JOSM uploads, and indicates what data sources were used in the editing > session. Server checks, sees GoogleWMS, replies "I'm sorry Dave, I'm > afraid I can't do that." > > Simon Too easy to bypass : save data into file, reload the file then upload. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 12:09:40PM +, Thomas Wood wrote: > I brought this up in IRC a few weeks back, and I know its been brought > up before that. > It's also appeared on the mls before, Richard's response pretty much > sums it up.. > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2008-September/011891.html I’m with that, for Potlatch. The version of Potlatch thats online on the OSM site only uploads to OSM. We can’t use Google’s data to contribute to OSM, so it would be extremely silly to implement the ability to. > I'll also note that it was originally announced on the JOSM mailing list here: > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/josm-dev/2007-October/000181.html > Frederik does make a good point that it could be used for good. With JOSM, it’s different: JOSM isn’t tied to the OSM site, you can upload the data to anywhere else. However, I do feel that it should do something to prevent upload to OSM when layers with incompatible terms of use have been used. A possible consideration for a future API is to move the check there: JOSM uploads, and indicates what data sources were used in the editing session. Server checks, sees GoogleWMS, replies “I’m sorry Dave, I’m afraid I can’t do that.” Simon -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 10:07:06AM +, Tim Waters (chippy) wrote: > Well even so, it would probably be against the terms of use etc from > Google, and they can ask for it to be taken down, so whilst it may be > useful, it cannot be used... It’s up to Google to do that, we can’t speak for them. We have already spoken from our side of things by interpreting Google’s terms of service and seeing how they fit with the OpenStreetMap licence and said Google’s data cannot be used to contribute to OSM. -- A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that works.—John Gall signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 1:09 PM, Thomas Wood wrote: > Frederik does make a good point that it could be used for good. I'm probably stupid but what is the aim of having google maps layers in JOSM - one editor for OSM data - excepted for copy ? I still see why people create online mashups where we can compare gmaps and OSM. But here we are inside an editor... Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
On Wednesday 24 Dec 2008 3:21:36 pm Nick Black wrote: > Thanks for bringing this up. I will pass this onto the Foundation team and > get in touch with the person running the site. > > Have you tried to contact the site owner in the past? I havent - but I think the foundation should communicate with him - possibly make him an offer he cannot refuse? -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Associate NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
I brought this up in IRC a few weeks back, and I know its been brought up before that. It's also appeared on the mls before, Richard's response pretty much sums it up.. http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2008-September/011891.html I'll also note that it was originally announced on the JOSM mailing list here: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/josm-dev/2007-October/000181.html Frederik does make a good point that it could be used for good. I did try ripping apart the source to find the server config, but came to a dead end - it would be useful as a TMS client for JOSM (which I've been desparately looking for to use Richard's NPE tiles with)... 2008/12/24 Nick Black : > Hi Kenneth, > > Thanks for bringing this up. I will pass this onto the Foundation team and > get in touch with the person running the site. > > Have you tried to contact the site owner in the past? > > Best, > > On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 9:19 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves > wrote: >> >> hi, >> apologies if this has been brought up before, but some people I have >> brought >> into OSM have stumbled across this site: >> http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/ >> and were all set to pollute the OSM database when I stopped them. Can we >> not >> convince this gentleman to cease and desist? >> -- >> regards >> Kenneth Gonsalves >> Associate >> NRC-FOSS >> http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ >> >> ___ >> talk mailing list >> talk@openstreetmap.org >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > > > -- > Nick Black > > http://www.blacksworld.net > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > -- Regards, Thomas Wood (Edgemaster) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
2008/12/24 Andrew Chadwick (email lists) : > Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: >> apologies if this has been brought up before, but some people I have brought >> into OSM have stumbled across this site: >> http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/ >> and were all set to pollute the OSM database when I stopped them. Can we not >> convince this gentleman to cease and desist? > > Persuading the author to put up a big reminder at the top of the page > saying "OSM users: please upload only to private osm-api servers" or > somesuch might be more useful. The tool is presumably useful outside OSM! It's a while since I read their TOS but I think this is disallowed too, you can only print out a copy for private use but not store the data (or derived data). Basically similar to mp3s of known artists. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 9:58 AM, Andrew Chadwick (email lists) wrote: > Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: >> apologies if this has been brought up before, but some people I have brought >> into OSM have stumbled across this site: >> http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/ >> and were all set to pollute the OSM database when I stopped them. Can we not >> convince this gentleman to cease and desist? > > Persuading the author to put up a big reminder at the top of the page > saying "OSM users: please upload only to private osm-api servers" or > somesuch might be more useful. The tool is presumably useful outside OSM! Well even so, it would probably be against the terms of use etc from Google, and they can ask for it to be taken down, so whilst it may be useful, it cannot be used... That saying, whilst it would apply to Google, it wouldn't be for everything. The tool could be used for other tiled layers - something of much greater use. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: > apologies if this has been brought up before, but some people I have brought > into OSM have stumbled across this site: > http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/ > and were all set to pollute the OSM database when I stopped them. Can we not > convince this gentleman to cease and desist? Persuading the author to put up a big reminder at the top of the page saying "OSM users: please upload only to private osm-api servers" or somesuch might be more useful. The tool is presumably useful outside OSM! Alternatively, expand created_by to list WMS layers used during the creation / editing of an object, by URL. Can't really blacklist local wms servers, but it'd help us excise infringing data from/and bad mappers later on. I'd say BAN JOSM at this point, but I really quite like the flexibility. -- Andrew Chadwick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] google wms
Hi Kenneth, Thanks for bringing this up. I will pass this onto the Foundation team and get in touch with the person running the site. Have you tried to contact the site owner in the past? Best, On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 9:19 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: > hi, > apologies if this has been brought up before, but some people I have > brought > into OSM have stumbled across this site: > http://www.peterdamen.com/GoogleWMS/ > and were all set to pollute the OSM database when I stopped them. Can we > not > convince this gentleman to cease and desist? > -- > regards > Kenneth Gonsalves > Associate > NRC-FOSS > http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > -- Nick Black http://www.blacksworld.net ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
