subject:"\[OSM\-talk\-be\] Association\/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium"

KISS rocks.

Thanks to you all.

Please, help us review the proposed bylaws in French that are adequate for
a asbl (I copied them from a working and reviewed asbl working on Free
Software), and add the points that would be needed to take care of Ivo's
initial proposal.

Unfortunately, I have limited time these days due to the elections (see
lepacte.be) and I am an expert in Brussels for the election system !

Regards,

Nicolas
-- 
Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01
Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012-10-12 Thread Ivo van den Maagdenberg


Hey everybody.

I am the one refered to by Eimai, and did the exercise a few years ago to 
create the bylaws, but stopped because there was no urgent need at that 
time; no assets, no concrete fundgathering initiatives on the horizon.


It is cool to see movement as people see the need to have a asbl/vzw set 
up!


As I am trying to follow up this thread...

I totally support:

1 to go ahead and create bylaws in french. A lot of work is currently been 
done in that direction on the wiki. Great!


2 initiate the asbl/vzw in bxl

3 to proof read the bylaws (although my french is rather limited)

Please go ahead, the time seems right.

Kind regards,
Ivom




On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Ben Laenen wrote:


On Friday 12 October 2012 17:21:16 wannes wrote:

In favor of KISS:

Just make a Belgian asbl, based in Wallonia/Brussels with French bylaws.

If needed we can always found a second Belgian asbl, with Dutch bylaws. If
not needed we don't.


I vote for one Wallonian/French speaking organization. If it's ever needed we
can extend that organization to cover the whole Belgium, or start a Flemish
one, after having thought about it a bit more than two days and after having
had more experience with what the official institutions expect.

Ben

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be




___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012-10-12 Thread Ivo De Broeck

2012/10/12 Ben Laenen 

>
>
> I vote for one Wallonian/French speaking organization. If it's ever needed
> we
> can extend that organization to cover the whole Belgium, or start a Flemish
> one, after having thought about it a bit more than two days and after
> having
> had more experience with what the official institutions expect.
>
> Ben
>
> ___
> Talk-be mailing list
> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>

I totally agree with that.
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

On Friday 12 October 2012 17:21:16 wannes wrote:
> In favor of KISS:
> 
> Just make a Belgian asbl, based in Wallonia/Brussels with French bylaws.
> 
> If needed we can always found a second Belgian asbl, with Dutch bylaws. If
> not needed we don't.

I vote for one Wallonian/French speaking organization. If it's ever needed we 
can extend that organization to cover the whole Belgium, or start a Flemish 
one, after having thought about it a bit more than two days and after having 
had more experience with what the official institutions expect.

Ben

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012-10-12 Thread wannes

On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 3:16 PM, Ben Laenen  wrote:

>
> But for now, we don't even need an organization for Flanders. So if you
> want
> to get funding from the French Community, I'd say that you create your
> Walloon
> asbl. Everything can just be in French, no need for translation, no need to
> have the seat in Brussels. If you want to get this running at the end of
> the
> month, that will greatly simplify everything anyway.
>

In favor of KISS:

Just make a Belgian asbl, based in Wallonia/Brussels with French bylaws.

If needed we can always found a second Belgian asbl, with Dutch bylaws. If
not needed we don't.

-- 
wannes
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

On Friday 12 October 2012 14:49:45 Nicolas Pettiaux wrote:
> In such a way, why do we really car that the association be one or two for
> Belgium, where indeed, in order to get money, you would better, in general,
> in the culture fields rather be regionnal ?

We should care if it matters to the objective of our vzw/asbl. If it makes it 
easier to get in contact with governments as separate Walloon and Flemish 
entities then we should follow that. I don't even know if they like to give 
funding and see their money being spent at an event in the other community.

And two entities shouldn't be a problem. It won't split up our Belgian 
community. As said, they're just there to support it, but if we have two 
organizations they can focus much better on their own governments.

But for now, we don't even need an organization for Flanders. So if you want 
to get funding from the French Community, I'd say that you create your Walloon 
asbl. Everything can just be in French, no need for translation, no need to 
have the seat in Brussels. If you want to get this running at the end of the 
month, that will greatly simplify everything anyway.

Ben

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012/10/12 Dennis Bollyn 

> The problem for me is that the association is basically overhead. It costs
> money and effort to maintain it while not offering any intrinsic benefits.

indeed


> The only reason we are considering it is because of a (possible) donation
> from the government. Creating two separate associations would double the
> overhead.
>
+1

> For now, I see no reason to create a Flemish counterpart. Since there
> would only exist a single association, it would be the de facto one to go
> to for all Belgian related situations.
>
> we said from the beginning that it could be done when needed.

In summary, I propose to create a single association (which is what would
> probably happen anyway). If this association is created in Brussels, on
> "neutral ground", it should be acceptable for both Walloon, Flemish and
> Brussels governments. If the need should every arise (a government refuses
> to work with an association that also works with other governments,
> disagreements, ...), we can always split the association afterwards.
>
> make sense.

+2

Nicolas

-- 
Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01
Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012-10-12 Thread Dennis Bollyn

The problem for me is that the association is basically overhead. It costs
money and effort to maintain it while not offering any intrinsic benefits.
The only reason we are considering it is because of a (possible) donation
from the government. Creating two separate associations would double the
overhead.
For now, I see no reason to create a Flemish counterpart. Since there would
only exist a single association, it would be the de facto one to go to for
all Belgian related situations.

In summary, I propose to create a single association (which is what would
probably happen anyway). If this association is created in Brussels, on
"neutral ground", it should be acceptable for both Walloon, Flemish and
Brussels governments. If the need should every arise (a government refuses
to work with an association that also works with other governments,
disagreements, ...), we can always split the association afterwards.

Best regards,

Dennis

On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 2:49 PM, Nicolas Pettiaux wrote:

> 2012/10/12 Ben Laenen 
>
>
>> Er, that's basically what the vzw/asbl would be: to support the
>> community. The
>> vzw/asbl won't ever *be* the community if that's what you're suggesting.
>> And
>> it will certainly not be some kind of governing power over the community.
>>
>> exact.
>
>
>> Just like OSM and OSMF are actually two separate entities, with OSMF
>> supporting OSM with infrastructure, fund-raising, organizing a few events
>> etc.
>>
>> indeed.
>
> In such a way, why do we really car that the association be one or two for
> Belgium, where indeed, in order to get money, you would better, in general,
> in the culture fields rather be regionnal ?
>
> I think it is time to put the points and people + and - for 2 versus 1
> associations. Then we'll summarize and count.
>
> What do you think ?
> --
> Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01
> Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » -
> hetpact.be
>
> ___
> Talk-be mailing list
> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
>
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012/10/12 Ben Laenen 


> Er, that's basically what the vzw/asbl would be: to support the community.
> The
> vzw/asbl won't ever *be* the community if that's what you're suggesting.
> And
> it will certainly not be some kind of governing power over the community.
>
> exact.


> Just like OSM and OSMF are actually two separate entities, with OSMF
> supporting OSM with infrastructure, fund-raising, organizing a few events
> etc.
>
> indeed.

In such a way, why do we really car that the association be one or two for
Belgium, where indeed, in order to get money, you would better, in general,
in the culture fields rather be regionnal ?

I think it is time to put the points and people + and - for 2 versus 1
associations. Then we'll summarize and count.

What do you think ?
-- 
Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01
Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

On Friday 12 October 2012 13:44:59 Nicolas Pettiaux wrote:
> I am now asking myself and the list : if we follow you, what about going on
> with this list and the OSM wiki as usual, see this as the true OSM-BE and
> consider the associations, one in each parts on Belgium, as some kind of
> administrative or complementary activity that is need to get money and
> other support ?

Er, that's basically what the vzw/asbl would be: to support the community. The 
vzw/asbl won't ever *be* the community if that's what you're suggesting. And 
it will certainly not be some kind of governing power over the community.

Just like OSM and OSMF are actually two separate entities, with OSMF 
supporting OSM with infrastructure, fund-raising, organizing a few events etc.

Ben

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

What is the personnal involvement you are refering to Benoit ?

You say

> I'm working in an ancient national environnemental association who has
splitted in the 80's in three regional association.

Have you got an idea of the good reasons to split ?

Some reasons could be : to do as anyone else at that time; another one
could be because they were threatened to loose their public (regionally
linguistically sided) financing if not splitting.

As a former physics Teacher, I often remember that most people at Galileo's
time considered that the Sun was revolving around the Earth, as is rather
evident when you look in a simplistic way at the sky, and they were all
wrong.

What about the efficiency of the work ?

You have defintitively, as far as I have understood, played a role in the 2
meetings with the cabinet Henry that
has resulted in the proposal to build something fast to be able to receive
money. And then ?

I am now asking myself and the list : if we follow you, what about going on
with this list and the OSM wiki as usual, see this as the true OSM-BE and
consider the associations, one in each parts on Belgium, as some kind of
administrative or complementary activity that is need to get money and
other support ?

Nothing would prevent us, the people managing the association, to invite
any person

Please be not offended. I am thinking aloud (in writing)

best

Nicolas
-- 
Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01
Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

On Friday 12 October 2012 13:16:37 Benoit Coumont wrote:
> So I vote for regional entities with strong links established to keep
> contact and share our works. I see I'm alone to think like that for the
> moment. The democracy should win and I'll assume the choice of the
> community. But, personnaly, I wouldn't participate with the same energy
> in a too complex structure.

Well, it was actually my first idea as well to have two associations (or just 
one for Wallonia right now since we don't yet need a Flemish one), which was 
the reason why I asked about it in the beginning of thread. But since I don't 
have real experience with how such organizations work and since most seem to 
prefer one association for the country, I didn't start to fight it.

But as you say: most organizations that could span the entire country are 
split up in two so I assume it's for a reason...

Ben

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012-10-12 Thread Benoit Coumont


Hello,

I would be in favor for two associations, one in Wallonia and Brussels 
and one in Flanders and Brussels. In Wallonia, we need to give priority 
to this open door with the Region. It will be possible later to create a 
network linking belgian and europeans associations to work together in 
some domains. There is a strong regionalization of associations in 
Belgium, it's a reality and they are more efficient like that mainly for 
local activites, campaigns and lobbying as we imagine to do. Regions are 
not our only door, I know it's also possible to make good things with 
cities and districts. Sure, there are battles to win with IGN/NGI, but I 
think there are a lot of other things to do before that. I'm working in 
an ancient national environnemental association who has splitted in the 
80's in three regional association. Most of belgian associations have 
made the same observations and did the same. After several years of 
association living, we could think about that again. But for me, it 
would be a real mistake to assume this problem from the beginning. 
Personnaly, I don't speak dutch and I'm not sure to have the courage and 
the desire to participate in a meeting in english for a volonteer 
activity after a working day.


So I vote for regional entities with strong links established to keep 
contact and share our works. I see I'm alone to think like that for the 
moment. The democracy should win and I'll assume the choice of the 
community. But, personnaly, I wouldn't participate with the same energy 
in a too complex structure.


How we could manage this vote ? With a framadate.org survey yes or no ?

Benoit

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ?

2012-10-11 Thread Jean-Louis Stanus

Hello all,


I will answer or respond to what i read

Julien :

about the question: "what to do in this asbl" and "what to do with the
> money", i thought about such things:
> - organising some mapping parties and events and communicate about it
> (to let know OSM) ;
> - let do some research by universities about open data, or ask them to
> make a review of licence we will maybe discuss with administration ;
> - be present at some places (REWICS in Wallonia, salon des enseignants
> (?), ...) ;
> - and do a lot of lobbying in favour of osm by municipalities,
> administrations, etc.
> - ...
>


i totally agree with you Julien. It was my vision too.

Personnaly, I would like to insist on the use of data in universities
and schools. Present how to import these data into QGIS and other GIS.
Because availability of Datas was a big gap in my education.

For me, we should have only two category of members :
> - membres adh?rents : all contributors who may justify to be registered
> on OSM since two months ;
> - membres effectifs : members accepted by the board (this is the case in
> the french association) ;


I agree


Nicolas Pettiaux
> until as said, the country is splitted or we are forced or convinced to
> split.
> As far as I know, we can start with the statuts/Statutes in 1 language and
> the have them translated, either officially (= published to the moniteur
> with the first one) or unofficially (= just for us and interested people)


I m not really agree with you if it's money from Region Wallonne, ok we
should create the statut in french but we should create the asbl in Bxl
because it more central and work with everybody : Vlaamse, Waalse en Duitse
to create one vision for all OSM Belgium (to communicate the same subjects
and not recreate the wheel:licence, etc,...) and  create sub divisions if
necessary because we have to work with region wallonne and Vlaamse Gewenst.

I m ready to be involved. i have free time for this asbl.

J-L


*Jean-Louis Stanus*


☎ +32 473761482
[image: Google Talk] *http://goo.gl/WSMDO*
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012/10/11 Sander Deryckere 

> For what it's worth.
>
> Btw, this can help sometimes when having problems with 
> acronyms:http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=FWIW
>

thanks a lot

-- 
Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01
Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012-10-11 Thread Sander Deryckere

For what it's worth.

Btw, this can help sometimes when having problems with
acronyms:http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=FWIW

2012/10/11 Nicolas Pettiaux 

> 2012/10/11 wannes 
>
>> FWIW
>>
>
> I don't understand FWIW
>
> --
> Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01
> Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » -
> hetpact.be
>
> ___
> Talk-be mailing list
> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
>
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012/10/11 wannes 

> FWIW
>

I don't understand FWIW

-- 
Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01
Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 4:51 PM, Nicolas Pettiaux wrote:

> This is a real pleasure on this list. We are IMHO effective  and
> respectful of each other.
> I like it a lot in this country where languages and associated feelings
> too often creates the problem.
>

+1


> My proposal : let's go with French now as we will very shortly need the
> bylaws in French, but take into account the ideas of the initial proposal
> of the bylaws in Dutch.
>
> Do you agree on such a plan ?
>

FWIW I do.


> For my experience, being only able to work with bank transfer is NOT an
> issue. We can always go through our personnal bank accounts for specific
> transactions or reimbursements.
>
> I like Triodos values ... that are IMHO close to ours in the Free software
> / open data world.
>
> I do not know Keytrade ... that I consider more focused on making money
> than playing a social role.
>

+1 For Triodos as /less evil/. ;)
Naturally their primary focus is on making money, but with more
green-ish/social projects.

-- 
wannes
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012/10/11 wannes 

> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Nicolas Pettiaux wrote:
>
>> Because Brussels is bilingual it would make things easier moving to a
>>> bilingual ASBL/VWZ afterwards (altough I don't see any benefit from being
>>> bilingual officialy, now we do almost everything in English ...)
>>>
>>> as long as we work nicely together, no problem.
>>
>
> Don't we always? :)
>
yes we do.

This is a real pleasure on this list. We are IMHO effective  and respectful
of each other.
I like it a lot in this country where languages and associated feelings too
often creates the problem.

We will also need to open a bank account. As good, easy bank and fast for
>> the process of opening an account is Triodos. We just need 2 people and the
>> bylaws to open an account for an organization (asbl/vzw or association de
>> fait). For ASBL, they will ask the statuts ! (any language of Belgium !)
>>
>
> Just to be clear, it's not really an issue I guess: Not in german, because
> if the adress is in Brussels: only Dutch and French are accepted languages
> for the chambre of commerce whre whe have to file the bylaws.
>
> indeed.

My proposal : let's go with French now as we will very shortly need the
bylaws in French, but take into account the ideas of the initial proposal
of the bylaws in Dutch.

Do you agree on such a plan ?

For my experience, being only able to work with bank transfer is NOT an
issue. We can always go through our personnal bank accounts for specific
transactions or reimbursements.

I like Triodos values ... that are IMHO close to ours in the Free software
/ open data world.

I do not know Keytrade ... that I consider more focused on making money
than playing a social role.

Mvg,

NP

-- 
Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01
Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Nicolas Pettiaux wrote:

> Because Brussels is bilingual it would make things easier moving to a
>> bilingual ASBL/VWZ afterwards (altough I don't see any benefit from being
>> bilingual officialy, now we do almost everything in English ...)
>>
>> as long as we work nicely together, no problem.
>

Don't we always? :)


> We will also need to open a bank account. As good, easy bank and fast for
> the process of opening an account is Triodos. We just need 2 people and the
> bylaws to open an account for an organization (asbl/vzw or association de
> fait). For ASBL, they will ask the statuts ! (any language of Belgium !)
>

Just to be clear, it's not really an issue I guess: Not in german, because
if the adress is in Brussels: only Dutch and French are accepted languages
for the chambre of commerce whre whe have to file the bylaws.

-- 
wannes
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012-10-11 Thread Dennis Bollyn

The only problem I see with Triodos is that it doesn't seem to be possible
to do any cash transactions (withdraw or deposit money) or have a card.
This would make simple purchases quite difficult.

Keytrade doesn't seem to have these problems, but I have no personal
experience with them.

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Nicolas Pettiaux wrote:

> We will also need to open a bank account. As good, easy bank and fast for
> the process of opening an account is Triodos. We just need 2 people and the
> bylaws to open an account for an organization (asbl/vzw or association de
> fait). For ASBL, they will ask the statuts ! (any language of Belgium !)
>
>
> --
> Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01
> Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » -
> hetpact.be
>
> ___
> Talk-be mailing list
> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
>
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

On Thursday 11 October 2012 16:11:52 wannes wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Nicolas Pettiaux 
wrote:
> > As I live in Brussels, I also propose and would like to be involved in the
> > association.
> 
> Would it be possible to have te official adress at your place? Because
> Brussels is bilingual it would make things easier moving to a bilingual
> ASBL/VWZ afterwards (altough I don't see any benefit from being bilingual
> officialy, now we do almost everything in English ...)

I guess it would matter if we started getting in contact with the Flemish 
Community? But I'm certainly no expert in that matter... But I'd say that 
having the official address in Brussels would make it a bit easier. We may be 
one big community ourselves, but we'll have to keep in mind that the 
governments we have to get in touch with aren't.

Who actually lives in Brussels and is willing to have its place as the 
official seat of the vzw/asbl? Are there more candidates besided Nicolas? (not 
that I have anything against you, of course, just checking possibilities first 
:-p)

Ben

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012/10/11 wannes 

> Yes.
> Please go for French bylaws and unofficial translation, if speed is
> important.
>
> indeed


> As I live in Brussels, I also propose and would like to be involved in the
>> association.
>>
>
> Would it be possible to have te official adress at your place?

yes


> Because Brussels is bilingual it would make things easier moving to a
> bilingual ASBL/VWZ afterwards (altough I don't see any benefit from being
> bilingual officialy, now we do almost everything in English ...)
>
> as long as we work nicely together, no problem.

We will need to have bylaws in Flemich too to be able to get money  from
the Flemish adminsitrations ... when times comes.

We will also need to open a bank account. As good, easy bank and fast for
the process of opening an account is Triodos. We just need 2 people and the
bylaws to open an account for an organization (asbl/vzw or association de
fait). For ASBL, they will ask the statuts ! (any language of Belgium !)

-- 
Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01
Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012-10-11 Thread Sander Deryckere

Online this will probably take long.

Is anyone willing to organise a meeting in real life (preferably on some
central place)? Maybe make a doodle to see when most people are available.

2012/10/11 Nicolas Pettiaux 

>
> +1 to the idea to get input from the person who proposed bylaws in Flemish
> ... but we need to move fast as per the request of the people wanting to
> give money.
>
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 4:04 PM, Nicolas Pettiaux wrote:

>
>
> As far as I know, we can start with the statuts/Statutes in 1 language and
> the have them translated, either officially (= published to the moniteur
> with the first one) or unofficially (= just for us and interested people)
>

Yes.
Please go for French bylaws and unofficial translation, if speed is
important.

As I live in Brussels, I also propose and would like to be involved in the
> association.
>

Would it be possible to have te official adress at your place? Because
Brussels is bilingual it would make things easier moving to a bilingual
ASBL/VWZ afterwards (altough I don't see any benefit from being bilingual
officialy, now we do almost everything in English ...)

-- 
wannes
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012/10/11 Ben Abelshausen 

> I would also like to fully support this any way I can... Also 1
> organisation please! :-)
>
> +42 (the answer to the question of the universe)

until as said, the country is splitted or we are forced or convinced to
split.

As far as I know, we can start with the statuts/Statutes in 1 language and
the have them translated, either officially (= published to the moniteur
with the first one) or unofficially (= just for us and interested people)

The statuts will be asked by the administration giving the money. This is
why I proposed statutes in French. Because to get the walloon monney we
will need to provide the walloon administration with them in French.

There are plenty of ways to spend the money :
* organize mapping parties,
* buying materials, servers ...
* printing promotion material
* ...

+1 to eMerzh : get isnpiration from the French OSM chapter for the
objectives.

+1 to the idea to get input from the person who proposed bylaws in Flemish
... but we need to move fast as per the request of the people wanting to
give money.

As I live in Brussels, I also propose and would like to be involved in the
association.

Best regards,

Nicolas
-- 
Nicolas Pettiaux, dr. sc - gsm : +32 496 24 55 01
Lepacte.be - « promouvoir les libertés numériques en Belgique » - hetpact.be
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012-10-11 Thread Ben Abelshausen

I would also like to fully support this any way I can... Also 1
organisation please! :-)

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 3:42 PM, Ben Laenen  wrote:

> On Thursday 11 October 2012 15:19:45 Julien Fastré wrote:
> > I was proposing voting on the modifications, not on the bylaws ! I am
> > sorry you misunderstood...
> >
> > Of course, it is not the time to vote !!! and we will need a real
> > meeting for that !!
>
> My bad :-)
>
> Ben
>
> ___
> Talk-be mailing list
> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

On Thursday 11 October 2012 15:19:45 Julien Fastré wrote:
> I was proposing voting on the modifications, not on the bylaws ! I am
> sorry you misunderstood...
> 
> Of course, it is not the time to vote !!! and we will need a real
> meeting for that !!

My bad :-)

Ben

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

I was proposing voting on the modifications, not on the bylaws ! I am 
sorry you misunderstood...


Of course, it is not the time to vote !!! and we will need a real 
meeting for that !!


Julien


Le 11/10/12 15:17, Ben Laenen a écrit :

On Thursday 11 October 2012 15:06:47 Julien Fastré wrote:

I made my proposals on the talk page: it may be easier...

Should we organize vote ?

You guys are moving so fast, you just announced this yesterday evening and now
you're already voting on the statutes? Statutes have to be reviewed quite
thoroughly first, I don't think one day is enough...

Anyway, I've contacted the person who created the Dutch version of the
statutes some years ago so he can give some input. He was certainly one of the
people who has thought most about an organization for Belgium.

Greetings
Ben

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be



___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

On Thursday 11 October 2012 15:06:47 Julien Fastré wrote:
> I made my proposals on the talk page: it may be easier...
> 
> Should we organize vote ?

You guys are moving so fast, you just announced this yesterday evening and now 
you're already voting on the statutes? Statutes have to be reviewed quite 
thoroughly first, I don't think one day is enough...

Anyway, I've contacted the person who created the Dutch version of the 
statutes some years ago so he can give some input. He was certainly one of the 
people who has thought most about an organization for Belgium.

Greetings
Ben

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

I made my proposals on the talk page: it may be easier...

Should we organize vote ?

Julien

Le 11/10/12 14:53, eMerzh a écrit :

about the bylaws published i have some comments but should i set them
on the wiki (discussion? ) or here?

like the "Object de l'assoc.. " (art 3.1 ) .. we need to be more OSM specific .
I like the opendata mouvement but OSM-belgium is about OSM ..; if we
can in the process give access to other opendata , great!

We may look on the French version to have good idea ...

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_France/Projet_d%27association_en_France/Statuts

There, the object is :

L’objectif de l’association est de promouvoir le projet OpenStreetMap
et notamment la collecte, la diffusion et l'utilisation de données
cartographiques sous des licences libres. Le règlement intérieur liste
les licences libres applicables aux données géographiques

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Julien Fastré wrote:

Ok. +1 for me.

Until now, we have never heard on this list the proposal to have 2
organisations.

Thinking about that, I was imagined also a possibility to have two
organisations with a representation of the other one in the board of each
one... But for thoses people, it means having to keep beeing up to date of
two asbl/vzw...

about the question: "what to do in this asbl" and "what to do with the
money", i thought about such things:

- organising some mapping parties and events and communicate about it (to
let know OSM) ;
- let do some research by universities about open data, or ask them to make
a review of licence we will maybe discuss with administration ;
- be present at some places (REWICS in Wallonia, salon des enseignants (?),
...) ;
- and do a lot of lobbying in favour of osm by municipalities,
administrations, etc.
- ...

About the bylaws published yesterday : do you agree about the proposals ?

For me, we should have only two category of members :
- membres adhérents : all contributors who may justify to be registered on
OSM since two months ;
- membres effectifs : members accepted by the board (this is the case in the
french association) ;

I do not see the utility of honoured members and "membres bienfaiteurs"

Of course, other organisation personnes morales are accepted as members.

Julien

Le 11/10/12 14:08, Jo a écrit :

My vote goes to 1 organisation (until we split the country, lol, just
kidding). I don't see a problem with only having the bylaws in 1 language,
even if it is French :-).

2012/10/11 eMerzh

I can help too... (i live in brussels)

The first thing to choose is if we do 2 or 1 organisation (with maybe
regional points)

Then we need to discuss the object of the association ...

and i think we need to become a real "local chapter" to be able to use
osm logo / ...

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012-10-11 Thread eMerzh

about the  bylaws published i have some comments but should i set them
on the wiki (discussion? ) or here?

like the "Object de l'assoc.. " (art 3.1 ) ..  we need to be more OSM specific .
I like the opendata mouvement but OSM-belgium is about OSM ..; if we
can in the process give access to other opendata , great!

We may look on the French version to have good idea ...

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_France/Projet_d%27association_en_France/Statuts

There, the object is :


L’objectif de l’association est de promouvoir le projet OpenStreetMap
et notamment la collecte, la diffusion et l'utilisation de données
cartographiques sous des licences libres. Le règlement intérieur liste
les licences libres applicables aux données géographiques


On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Julien Fastré  wrote:
> Ok. +1 for me.
>
> Until now, we have never heard on this list the proposal to have 2
> organisations.
>
> Thinking about that, I was imagined also a possibility to have two
> organisations with a representation of the other one in the board of each
> one... But for thoses people, it means having to keep beeing up to date of
> two asbl/vzw...
>
> about the question: "what to do in this asbl" and "what to do with the
> money", i thought about such things:
>
> - organising some mapping parties and events and communicate about it (to
> let know OSM) ;
> - let do some research by universities about open data, or ask them to make
> a review of licence we will maybe discuss with administration ;
> - be present at some places (REWICS in Wallonia, salon des enseignants (?),
> ...) ;
> - and do a lot of lobbying in favour of osm by municipalities,
> administrations, etc.
> - ...
>
> About the bylaws published yesterday : do you agree about the proposals ?
>
> For me, we should have only two category of members :
> - membres adhérents : all contributors who may justify to be registered on
> OSM since two months ;
> - membres effectifs : members accepted by the board (this is the case in the
> french association) ;
>
> I do not see the utility of honoured members and "membres bienfaiteurs"
>
> Of course, other organisation personnes morales are accepted as members.
>
> Julien
>
> Le 11/10/12 14:08, Jo a écrit :
>
> My vote goes to 1 organisation (until we split the country, lol, just
> kidding). I don't see a problem with only having the bylaws in 1 language,
> even if it is French :-).
>
> Jo
>
>
>
> 2012/10/11 eMerzh 
>>
>> I can help too... (i live in brussels)
>>
>> The first thing to choose is if we do 2 or 1 organisation (with maybe
>> regional points)
>>
>> Then we need to discuss the object of the association ...
>>
>> and i think we need to become a real "local chapter" to be able to use
>> osm logo / ...
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-be mailing list
>> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-be mailing list
> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-be mailing list
> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)


Ok. +1 for me.

Until now, we have never heard on this list the proposal to have 2 
organisations.


Thinking about that, I was imagined also a possibility to have two 
organisations with a representation of the other one in the board of 
each one... But for thoses people, it means having to keep beeing up to 
date of two asbl/vzw...


about the question: "what to do in this asbl" and "what to do with the 
money", i thought about such things:


- organising some mapping parties and events and communicate about it 
(to let know OSM) ;
- let do some research by universities about open data, or ask them to 
make a review of licence we will maybe discuss with administration ;
- be present at some places (REWICS in Wallonia, salon des enseignants 
(?), ...) ;
- and do a lot of lobbying in favour of osm by municipalities, 
administrations, etc.

- ...

About the bylaws published yesterday : do you agree about the proposals ?

For me, we should have only two category of members :
- membres adhérents : all contributors who may justify to be registered 
on OSM since two months ;
- membres effectifs : members accepted by the board (this is the case in 
the french association) ;


I do not see the utility of honoured members and "membres bienfaiteurs"

Of course, other organisation personnes morales are accepted as members.

Julien

Le 11/10/12 14:08, Jo a écrit :
My vote goes to 1 organisation (until we split the country, lol, just 
kidding). I don't see a problem with only having the bylaws in 1 
language, even if it is French :-).


Jo



2012/10/11 eMerzh mailto:merz...@gmail.com>>

I can help too... (i live in brussels)

The first thing to choose is if we do 2 or 1 organisation (with maybe
regional points)

Then we need to discuss the object of the association ...

and i think we need to become a real "local chapter" to be able to use
osm logo / ...

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org 
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be




___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be


___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012-10-11 Thread Jo

My vote goes to 1 organisation (until we split the country, lol, just
kidding). I don't see a problem with only having the bylaws in 1 language,
even if it is French :-).

Jo



2012/10/11 eMerzh 

> I can help too... (i live in brussels)
>
> The first thing to choose is if we do 2 or 1 organisation (with maybe
> regional points)
>
> Then we need to discuss the object of the association ...
>
> and i think we need to become a real "local chapter" to be able to use
> osm logo / ...
>
> ___
> Talk-be mailing list
> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012-10-11 Thread eMerzh

I can help too... (i live in brussels)

The first thing to choose is if we do 2 or 1 organisation (with maybe
regional points)

Then we need to discuss the object of the association ...

and i think we need to become a real "local chapter" to be able to use
osm logo / ...

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

Did you ever heard about some association having two statuts/statuten ? 
In case of problem, which one should we refer to ?


I think we should choose one language for the statuts/statuten, and 
having a place in it where we say that we accept document in another 
language (PV/verslag, enz)


Julien

Le 11/10/12 13:54, Dennis Bollyn a écrit :
I would also prefer to have a single organization for Belgium. This 
does have some practical implications. For one, the "siège 
social/maatschappelijke zetel" should probably be in Brussels. This 
allows the statuts/statuten to be bilingual. This does mean we need a 
volunteer in Brussels.


There is quite a bit of administrative work to be done. I'm not sure 
how realistic it is to create this association before the end of the 
month.


I'm willing to assist were possible (translation, research, ...).

Best regards,

Dennis

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Sander Deryckere 
mailto:sander...@gmail.com>> wrote:




2012/10/11 wannes mailto:wanne...@gmail.com>>

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Ben Laenen
mailto:benlae...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Also, living on the other side of our linguistic border,
what do we actually
prefer: one such organization to span Belgium, or two
separate ones? Right now
I don't see many Flemish people involved...


I prefer just one.
Makes it easier to reach the required # members for OSM
Foundation, and less overhead (costs).
-- 
wannes


I agree with this.


Par contre, cette activité ne pourrait avoir lieu que... en
Wallonie! Le siège social n'entrera pas en ligne de compte,
mais il ne
pourra pas y avoir de dérogation à la localisation des
activités (qu'il
faudra justifier).


We can have one seat, it organises some activities, and for
different activities, different money sources can be found. As
Julien said above, the Walloon government is willing to sponser
the cases where the activities take place in Wallonia.

Regards,
Sander


___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org 
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be




___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be


___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Dennis Bollyn  wrote:

> I would also prefer to have a single organization for Belgium. This does
> have some practical implications. For one, the "siège
> social/maatschappelijke zetel" should probably be in Brussels. This allows
> the statuts/statuten to be bilingual. This does mean we need a volunteer in
> Brussels.
>

IMO it is not needed for the bylaws to be bilingual. One can file them in
French (or Dutch or German) and have an unofficial translation. Altough I
would opt not to have them in German, because this limits future possible
adresses.

> There is quite a bit of administrative work to be done. I'm not sure how
> realistic it is to create this association before the end of the month.
>

Not having bilingual bylaws may speed things op significantly.
When they are signed by the three founders, they can be filed
electronically, so by the end of the month is possible.

> I'm willing to assist were possible (translation, research, ...).
>

If we agree on the French text, translation can be done afterwards.

-- 
wannes
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012-10-11 Thread Dennis Bollyn

I would also prefer to have a single organization for Belgium. This does
have some practical implications. For one, the "siège
social/maatschappelijke zetel" should probably be in Brussels. This allows
the statuts/statuten to be bilingual. This does mean we need a volunteer in
Brussels.

There is quite a bit of administrative work to be done. I'm not sure how
realistic it is to create this association before the end of the month.

I'm willing to assist were possible (translation, research, ...).

Best regards,

Dennis

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Sander Deryckere wrote:

>
>
> 2012/10/11 wannes 
>
>> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Ben Laenen  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Also, living on the other side of our linguistic border, what do we
>>> actually
>>> prefer: one such organization to span Belgium, or two separate ones?
>>> Right now
>>> I don't see many Flemish people involved...
>>>
>>
>> I prefer just one.
>> Makes it easier to reach the required # members for OSM Foundation, and
>> less overhead (costs).
>>
>> --
>> wannes
>>
>> I agree with this.
>
>
> Par contre, cette activité ne pourrait avoir lieu que... en
>> Wallonie! Le siège social n'entrera pas en ligne de compte, mais il ne
>> pourra pas y avoir de dérogation à la localisation des activités (qu'il
>> faudra justifier).
>
>
> We can have one seat, it organises some activities, and for different
> activities, different money sources can be found. As Julien said above, the
> Walloon government is willing to sponser the cases where the activities
> take place in Wallonia.
>
> Regards,
> Sander
>
>
> ___
> Talk-be mailing list
> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
>
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

2012-10-11 Thread Sander Deryckere

2012/10/11 wannes 

> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Ben Laenen  wrote:
>
>>
>> Also, living on the other side of our linguistic border, what do we
>> actually
>> prefer: one such organization to span Belgium, or two separate ones?
>> Right now
>> I don't see many Flemish people involved...
>>
>
> I prefer just one.
> Makes it easier to reach the required # members for OSM Foundation, and
> less overhead (costs).
>
> --
> wannes
>
> I agree with this.

Par contre, cette activité ne pourrait avoir lieu que... en
> Wallonie! Le siège social n'entrera pas en ligne de compte, mais il ne
> pourra pas y avoir de dérogation à la localisation des activités (qu'il
> faudra justifier).


We can have one seat, it organises some activities, and for different
activities, different money sources can be found. As Julien said above, the
Walloon government is willing to sponser the cases where the activities
take place in Wallonia.

Regards,
Sander
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:53 AM, Ben Laenen  wrote:

>
> Also, living on the other side of our linguistic border, what do we
> actually
> prefer: one such organization to span Belgium, or two separate ones? Right
> now
> I don't see many Flemish people involved...
>

I prefer just one.
Makes it easier to reach the required # members for OSM Foundation, and
less overhead (costs).

-- 
wannes
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)

Hi,

one question I have of course: if you do get the money, what will you be doing 
with it :-)

Also, living on the other side of our linguistic border, what do we actually 
prefer: one such organization to span Belgium, or two separate ones? Right now 
I don't see many Flemish people involved...

Ben

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Association/Veriniging OpenStreetMap Belgium ? (very soon ?)