date:20100617


So I've had phone and email chats with stephen wolfram about everything they're 
doing because incidentally I had an internship there a decade ago.

They love OSM. What's good is we're at a nice tipping point with many who want 
to use OSM and help it succeed but are having trouble figuring out how to. This 
is the same conversation I have with lots of companies right now, so 
abstracting away exactly what they and other companies keep telling me, and 
paraphrasing the message from a few million and billion dollar companies, 
here's what I hear:

They would like to link to us directly but don't think a) we can handle the 
load and b) don't think it would be a good user experience to dump people on to 
osm.org, what with the site design. Of those that would like to help us scale 
the servers, they don't want to be seen to try to 'take over' by hosting OSM in 
their data centers but can't really justify throwing money at us when they have 
perfectly good resources we could use. Most would like to have some feedback or 
edit button from their site that goes to OSM but know we'd fall over from the 
load, so they'd basically be down to forking the OSM dataset and hosting it 
themselves which nobody wants to do because then you're a bad guy. I've had a 
couple of offers of design and coding help but most are scared by the responses 
they've seen to other people who've tried to help with obvious things here, and 
don't want community wrath to hurt their brand image.

Basically there's a big decision tree that I have half worked out that follows 
from 'big company wants to *significantly* help OSM but how?'. I've been 
through this decision tree about 6 or 7 times now I think. It would be 
interesting to graph it, and each end point node in that tree is 'we can't do 
that because of X'. By '*significant*', I mean throwing millions of dollars at 
the problem (OSM) because they're already throwing tens to hundreds of millions 
at NT/TA and so OSM a viable side bet. Of course you could say 'start small' 
but the problem there is that it's usually much easier to release large 
resources than small in large organisations.

There is a slight contradiction here though because the other thing I hear a 
lot is they'd like to try something with us but keep it quiet - i.e. try 
something small, but that's extremely hard with an open community. One of the 
many reasons to try something quietly is that you might not want to piss off 
your multi-billion dollar data supplier, NT or TA and OSM isn't at the point 
yet where it's a drop in replacement.

So you have a sort of prisoners dilemma where we're the company is acting 
rationally, OSM is acting (sort of) rationally... and yet it leads to the worst 
possible outcome: no big help given. I find it frustrating on both sides of the 
table.

So what will happen is that they do something themselves without OSM 
involvement and it just pops up in the world one day like wolfram alpha or 
flickr did and then build their own site reminiscent of maps.cloudmade.com with 
either just plain browsing the map functionality or some simple tools. You will 
see this happen multiple times with other companies over the next year or two.

That's of course totally fine and allowable by the license blah blah blah, but 
what we, OSM, lose as a community is all of those eyeballs to help fix the map. 
I think that's a terrific loss. There are things we can do to fix it, and there 
are things they can do.

I'm hoping that we'll reach a point where the dam will bust and it will be cool 
and fashionable to support OSM openly and loudly, but we're not quite there yet.

Steve

stevecoast.com


On Jun 17, 2010, at 5:30 AM, Tobias Knerr wrote:
 16.06.2010 18:38, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
 it might be OK or not, but generally we explain in our wiki how we
 like to be attributed in the web-context, that is supplying cc-by-sa
 linked to creative commons and Openstreetmap, not too difficult, is
 it?
 
 Apparently it is counter-intuitive at least for users not reading our
 wiki, otherwise we wouldn't see those incomplete attributions this often.
 
 I even doubt that insisting on that license URI is a good idea at all.
 The URI isn't really useful in practice as long as people know where the
 data comes from and are can easily go to osm.org (where we have the
 possibility to advertise our license conditions in any way we like).
 It is cumbersome in many environments and enforcing it would require a
 lot of unpleasant communication: Informing others that they don't
 conform to a license isn't a great start for relations. Initiatives such
 as the Lacking proper attribution wiki tables have caused conflict
 even within the OSM community.
 
 Tobias Knerr
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:16 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:


 There is a slight contradiction here though because the other thing I hear
 a lot is they'd like to try something with us but keep it quiet - i.e. try
 something small, but that's extremely hard with an open community.


I find the exact opposite: the majority of the projects related to OSM in
the past few years have been done in relative quiet. The tools that OSMers
use are developed by a small group (or single person) in a bunker somewhere.
They infrequently pop up on IRC or the mailing list and ask a question or
two, then return to their bunkers to work on their project. When they're
done, they might tell someone (they might not). I imagine that a large
company (or more likely a bunch of like-minded developers in that company)
could do the same.

If we can figure out a way to bring the community together and embrace each
other's tools, then we will not only solve that problem for the hobby
tools we currently write, but also the corporate ones.


 So you have a sort of prisoners dilemma where we're the company is acting
 rationally, OSM is acting (sort of) rationally... and yet it leads to the
 worst possible outcome: no big help given. I find it frustrating on both
 sides of the table.


The same thing can be said for non-corporate help. See for example the time
that Tim Berners-Lee made a single post on the mailing list a while back we
hounded him with suggestions or questions and sort of scared him off (at
least from the mailing list). Again, if we do a better job at accepting
non-corporate people we can also do a better job at accepting corporate
help.


 So what will happen is that they do something themselves without OSM
 involvement and it just pops up in the world one day like wolfram alpha or
 flickr did and then build their own site reminiscent of 
 maps.cloudmade.comwith either just plain browsing the map functionality or 
 some simple tools.
 You will see this happen multiple times with other companies over the next
 year or two.


When this sort of thing happens on the free/community/mailing list
side of things, someone usually pops up somewhere saying hey I'm doing this
neat thing, what do you think? In your examples the people are talking
directly to you, Steve. Could you redirect them to the mailing list? If talk
is too scary, then maybe this what the professionals mailing list was meant
for.

Bottom line: the community can't help anyone if it doesn't know anything
about the problem.

That's of course totally fine and allowable by the license blah blah blah,
 but what we, OSM, lose as a community is all of those eyeballs to help fix
 the map. I think that's a terrific loss. There are things we can do to fix
 it, and there are things they can do.

 I'm hoping that we'll reach a point where the dam will bust and it will be
 cool and fashionable to support OSM openly and loudly, but we're not quite
 there yet.


Are we not there yet because we're scaring them off? If so, maybe the
community could open its mind and eyes a little bit when ideas like these
come in instead of scaring them off with questions about legality and server
load and whatnot.
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Re: [OSM-talk] WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data

2010-06-17 Per discussione Nic Roets

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 7:14 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:16 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:

 There is a slight contradiction here though because the other thing I hear
 a lot is they'd like to try something with us but keep it quiet - i.e. try
 something small, but that's extremely hard with an open community.

 I find the exact opposite: the majority of the projects related to OSM in
 the past few years have been done in relative quiet. The tools that OSMers
 use are developed by a small group (or single person) in a bunker somewhere.

+1

I also think the companies like to tell Steve that they're the next
Sun or Red Hat (opening everyhing up). But when the board meeting
comes, they start thinking NT/TA licensing fees is just a cost that
they pass on to their customers. If they help OSM, then it will also
help their competitors and will not really improve the bottom line.
Furthermore, once OSM competes with NT/TA, they may have to compete
with the person in the bunker.

 Are we not there yet because we're scaring them off? If so, maybe the
 community could open its mind and eyes a little bit when ideas like these
 come in instead of scaring them off with questions about legality and server
 load and whatnot.

That is much easier said than done. Companies are quite wary of
launching the next New Coke. To explain it in OSM terminology: Let's
say a company devises a new web site and it has scientifically proof
that it is better (e.g. blind tests). Then some people may still see
it as a faceless company prescribing to a community what they should
do. Throw in a few words like profiteering and it can generate some
undeserved bad press for the company.

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[OSM-talk] Removing ways in Potlatch

2010-06-17 Per discussione John F. Eldredge

While updating the streets in my neighborhood (mostly correcting misaligned 
TIGER imports to match Yahoo's aerial views), I found a short street that needs 
to be removed from the map.  It has been closed to traffic for decades, and the 
pavement has now been removed and replaced by a commercial real-estate 
development.  Potlatch will let me reposition or lengthen the street, but won't 
let me remove the street.  How can I remove this short and no-longer-existing 
street using Potlatch?

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [OSM-talk] Removing ways in Potlatch

2010-06-17 Per discussione Shaun McDonald

shift+backspace/delete. This is to prevent you hitting delete and deleting the 
way accidentally.

Shaun

On 17 Jun 2010, at 22:34, John F. Eldredge wrote:

 While updating the streets in my neighborhood (mostly correcting misaligned 
 TIGER imports to match Yahoo's aerial views), I found a short street that 
 needs to be removed from the map.  It has been closed to traffic for decades, 
 and the pavement has now been removed and replaced by a commercial 
 real-estate development.  Potlatch will let me reposition or lengthen the 
 street, but won't let me remove the street.  How can I remove this short and 
 no-longer-existing street using Potlatch?
 
 -- 
 John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
 Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
 think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Removing ways in Potlatch

2010-06-17 Per discussione Alex S.

John F. Eldredge wrote:
 How can I remove this short and no-longer-existing street using Potlatch?

Some would like to see it kept and marked historical, but deleting ways 
in Potlatch is easy: select the way, then select an end node and delete 
until all way nodes are gone (shared nodes in crossing ways will 
remain).  Then click away and the way is deleted.


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[OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)

2010-06-17 Per discussione Frederik Ramm

Steve,

 They would like to link to us directly but don't think a) we can
 handle the load and b) don't think it would be a good user experience
 to dump people on to osm.org, what with the site design.

To paraphrase (not specifically Wolfram, but the unnamed other megacorps 
you're chatting with):

1. they'd like to link to us directly but our infrastrucutre is too weak;

2. they would not want to give us a shitload of money to improve our 
infrastructure, but could imagine hosting something;

3. there is fear that the community would view this negatively.

To which I say, I don't think the community has anything against someone 
doing a glorified maps.cloudmade.com; if they have really fast servers 
and maybe even a CDN, can do lots of styles and make the tiles and 
services available under a free-for-all policy. That would be great, and 
would - if given sufficient long-term promise by whoever it is - allow 
us to reduce our tile serving to an experimental capacity, freeing up 
resources for the core database which obviously we must keep operating 
ourselves.

But there is a logical problem here and that has nothing to do with us 
at all. You say that many would like to link to OSM directly if only OSM 
had sufficient resources. Now assume that some big guy with many 
enemies, say Google, or Microsoft, were to offer super-fat tile serving 
for OSM as I outlined above. We would then scale back our own tile ops 
to a minimum, and their server would be the main OSM tile server, and 
whenever you go to www.osm.org your browser says connecting to 
osmtile.google.com or some such.

I think that the community would be less of a problem - I don't think 
many would care if our tiles came from MS or Google or so as long as 
they were unrestricted and the data remained free. But all those other 
big guys, of whom you say that they would like to link to us - would 
*they* want to send their users to get tiles from Google, MS or someone 
else? Or would the we'd like to link to you but your infrastructure 
cannot take the load and anyway your front page is ugly then be 
replaced with we'd like to link to you but you must understand that the 
'sponsored by XYZ' on the shiny front page is a problem?

Of course things would be even worse if the big sponsor wanted to put 
the tiles or service under a non-open license (e.g. a license with a 
noncommercial component). That, I think, would reduce overall 
usefulness rather than improving it. Any funded tile serving would have 
to be more open than what we can currently offer, not less.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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[OSM-talk] Fwd: XAPI returns multiple versions of objects

2010-06-17 Per discussione David C.

[ sent from wrong account first time.. apologies if this shows up twice ]

I'm finding that XAPI is returning multiple versions of the same
object (nodes and
ways at least) which is makes it impossible to use osmosis to create
geometries, and
prevents the creation of keys in the simple postGIS schema.  For
example, from the
Cloudmade California extract:

 [...@freebee /var/tmp/osm/cali]$ fgrep 54609047 /tmp/xapi/ca.osm
 way id=54609047 version=1 timestamp=2010-04-07T11:47:37Z
uid=82317 user=AM909 changeset=4353913
 way id=54609047 version=3 timestamp=2010-04-08T04:14:23Z
uid=82317 user=AM909 changeset=4360856
 way id=54609047 version=4 timestamp=2010-04-09T09:40:21Z
uid=82317 user=AM909 changeset=4371390

This doesn't seem like desired behavior... is it?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)

I think you're concentrating on tiles, but that's not really the bottleneck I 
would jump on first.

The conversation goes like this:

steve we have 300 million people a day look at our site and we would like to 
send their edits and feedback to OSM

Really it's the API we're talking about. Tiles are just a CDN problem.


On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:18 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Steve,
 
 They would like to link to us directly but don't think a) we can
 handle the load and b) don't think it would be a good user experience
 to dump people on to osm.org, what with the site design.
 
 To paraphrase (not specifically Wolfram, but the unnamed other megacorps 
 you're chatting with):
 
 1. they'd like to link to us directly but our infrastrucutre is too weak;
 
 2. they would not want to give us a shitload of money to improve our 
 infrastructure, but could imagine hosting something;
 
 3. there is fear that the community would view this negatively.
 
 To which I say, I don't think the community has anything against someone 
 doing a glorified maps.cloudmade.com; if they have really fast servers and 
 maybe even a CDN, can do lots of styles and make the tiles and services 
 available under a free-for-all policy. That would be great, and would - if 
 given sufficient long-term promise by whoever it is - allow us to reduce our 
 tile serving to an experimental capacity, freeing up resources for the core 
 database which obviously we must keep operating ourselves.
 
 But there is a logical problem here and that has nothing to do with us at 
 all. You say that many would like to link to OSM directly if only OSM had 
 sufficient resources. Now assume that some big guy with many enemies, say 
 Google, or Microsoft, were to offer super-fat tile serving for OSM as I 
 outlined above. We would then scale back our own tile ops to a minimum, and 
 their server would be the main OSM tile server, and whenever you go to 
 www.osm.org your browser says connecting to osmtile.google.com or some such.
 
 I think that the community would be less of a problem - I don't think many 
 would care if our tiles came from MS or Google or so as long as they were 
 unrestricted and the data remained free. But all those other big guys, of 
 whom you say that they would like to link to us - would *they* want to send 
 their users to get tiles from Google, MS or someone else? Or would the we'd 
 like to link to you but your infrastructure cannot take the load and anyway 
 your front page is ugly then be replaced with we'd like to link to you but 
 you must understand that the 'sponsored by XYZ' on the shiny front page is a 
 problem?
 
 Of course things would be even worse if the big sponsor wanted to put the 
 tiles or service under a non-open license (e.g. a license with a 
 noncommercial component). That, I think, would reduce overall usefulness 
 rather than improving it. Any funded tile serving would have to be more open 
 than what we can currently offer, not less.
 
 Bye
 Frederik
 
 -- 
 Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33
 

Steve

stevecoast.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)

Well let me take that back a bit - actually even doing some very simple cleanup 
of the interface and having a feedback mechanism *at all* would be a good first 
step, as people jumped on my recent OGD post in the comments:

http://opengeodata.org/the-importance-of-timing-to-feedback



On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:27 PM, SteveC wrote:
 I think you're concentrating on tiles, but that's not really the bottleneck I 
 would jump on first.
 
 The conversation goes like this:
 
 steve we have 300 million people a day look at our site and we would like to 
 send their edits and feedback to OSM
 
 Really it's the API we're talking about. Tiles are just a CDN problem.
 
 
 On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:18 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Steve,
 
 They would like to link to us directly but don't think a) we can
 handle the load and b) don't think it would be a good user experience
 to dump people on to osm.org, what with the site design.
 
 To paraphrase (not specifically Wolfram, but the unnamed other megacorps 
 you're chatting with):
 
 1. they'd like to link to us directly but our infrastrucutre is too weak;
 
 2. they would not want to give us a shitload of money to improve our 
 infrastructure, but could imagine hosting something;
 
 3. there is fear that the community would view this negatively.
 
 To which I say, I don't think the community has anything against someone 
 doing a glorified maps.cloudmade.com; if they have really fast servers and 
 maybe even a CDN, can do lots of styles and make the tiles and services 
 available under a free-for-all policy. That would be great, and would - if 
 given sufficient long-term promise by whoever it is - allow us to reduce our 
 tile serving to an experimental capacity, freeing up resources for the core 
 database which obviously we must keep operating ourselves.
 
 But there is a logical problem here and that has nothing to do with us at 
 all. You say that many would like to link to OSM directly if only OSM had 
 sufficient resources. Now assume that some big guy with many enemies, say 
 Google, or Microsoft, were to offer super-fat tile serving for OSM as I 
 outlined above. We would then scale back our own tile ops to a minimum, and 
 their server would be the main OSM tile server, and whenever you go to 
 www.osm.org your browser says connecting to osmtile.google.com or some 
 such.
 
 I think that the community would be less of a problem - I don't think many 
 would care if our tiles came from MS or Google or so as long as they were 
 unrestricted and the data remained free. But all those other big guys, of 
 whom you say that they would like to link to us - would *they* want to send 
 their users to get tiles from Google, MS or someone else? Or would the we'd 
 like to link to you but your infrastructure cannot take the load and anyway 
 your front page is ugly then be replaced with we'd like to link to you but 
 you must understand that the 'sponsored by XYZ' on the shiny front page is a 
 problem?
 
 Of course things would be even worse if the big sponsor wanted to put the 
 tiles or service under a non-open license (e.g. a license with a 
 noncommercial component). That, I think, would reduce overall usefulness 
 rather than improving it. Any funded tile serving would have to be more open 
 than what we can currently offer, not less.
 
 Bye
 Frederik
 
 -- 
 Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33
 
 
 Steve
 
 stevecoast.com
 

Steve

stevecoast.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)

OTRS?

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:30 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:

 Well let me take that back a bit - actually even doing some very simple
 cleanup of the interface and having a feedback mechanism *at all* would be a
 good first step, as people jumped on my recent OGD post in the comments:

http://opengeodata.org/the-importance-of-timing-to-feedback



 On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:27 PM, SteveC wrote:
  I think you're concentrating on tiles, but that's not really the
 bottleneck I would jump on first.
 
  The conversation goes like this:
 
  steve we have 300 million people a day look at our site and we would
 like to send their edits and feedback to OSM
 
  Really it's the API we're talking about. Tiles are just a CDN problem.
 
 
  On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:18 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
  Steve,
 
  They would like to link to us directly but don't think a) we can
  handle the load and b) don't think it would be a good user experience
  to dump people on to osm.org, what with the site design.
 
  To paraphrase (not specifically Wolfram, but the unnamed other megacorps
 you're chatting with):
 
  1. they'd like to link to us directly but our infrastrucutre is too
 weak;
 
  2. they would not want to give us a shitload of money to improve our
 infrastructure, but could imagine hosting something;
 
  3. there is fear that the community would view this negatively.
 
  To which I say, I don't think the community has anything against someone
 doing a glorified maps.cloudmade.com; if they have really fast servers and
 maybe even a CDN, can do lots of styles and make the tiles and services
 available under a free-for-all policy. That would be great, and would - if
 given sufficient long-term promise by whoever it is - allow us to reduce our
 tile serving to an experimental capacity, freeing up resources for the core
 database which obviously we must keep operating ourselves.
 
  But there is a logical problem here and that has nothing to do with us
 at all. You say that many would like to link to OSM directly if only OSM had
 sufficient resources. Now assume that some big guy with many enemies, say
 Google, or Microsoft, were to offer super-fat tile serving for OSM as I
 outlined above. We would then scale back our own tile ops to a minimum, and
 their server would be the main OSM tile server, and whenever you go to
 www.osm.org your browser says connecting to osmtile.google.com or some
 such.
 
  I think that the community would be less of a problem - I don't think
 many would care if our tiles came from MS or Google or so as long as they
 were unrestricted and the data remained free. But all those other big guys,
 of whom you say that they would like to link to us - would *they* want to
 send their users to get tiles from Google, MS or someone else? Or would the
 we'd like to link to you but your infrastructure cannot take the load and
 anyway your front page is ugly then be replaced with we'd like to link to
 you but you must understand that the 'sponsored by XYZ' on the shiny front
 page is a problem?
 
  Of course things would be even worse if the big sponsor wanted to put
 the tiles or service under a non-open license (e.g. a license with a
 noncommercial component). That, I think, would reduce overall usefulness
 rather than improving it. Any funded tile serving would have to be more open
 than what we can currently offer, not less.
 
  Bye
  Frederik
 
  --
  Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09
 E008°23'33
 
 
  Steve
 
  stevecoast.com
 

 Steve

 stevecoast.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)


On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:45 PM, Anthony wrote:

 OTRS?

huh?

 
 On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:30 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
 Well let me take that back a bit - actually even doing some very simple 
 cleanup of the interface and having a feedback mechanism *at all* would be a 
 good first step, as people jumped on my recent OGD post in the comments:
 
http://opengeodata.org/the-importance-of-timing-to-feedback
 
 
 
 On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:27 PM, SteveC wrote:
  I think you're concentrating on tiles, but that's not really the bottleneck 
  I would jump on first.
 
  The conversation goes like this:
 
  steve we have 300 million people a day look at our site and we would like 
  to send their edits and feedback to OSM
 
  Really it's the API we're talking about. Tiles are just a CDN problem.
 
 
  On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:18 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
  Steve,
 
  They would like to link to us directly but don't think a) we can
  handle the load and b) don't think it would be a good user experience
  to dump people on to osm.org, what with the site design.
 
  To paraphrase (not specifically Wolfram, but the unnamed other megacorps 
  you're chatting with):
 
  1. they'd like to link to us directly but our infrastrucutre is too weak;
 
  2. they would not want to give us a shitload of money to improve our 
  infrastructure, but could imagine hosting something;
 
  3. there is fear that the community would view this negatively.
 
  To which I say, I don't think the community has anything against someone 
  doing a glorified maps.cloudmade.com; if they have really fast servers and 
  maybe even a CDN, can do lots of styles and make the tiles and services 
  available under a free-for-all policy. That would be great, and would - if 
  given sufficient long-term promise by whoever it is - allow us to reduce 
  our tile serving to an experimental capacity, freeing up resources for the 
  core database which obviously we must keep operating ourselves.
 
  But there is a logical problem here and that has nothing to do with us at 
  all. You say that many would like to link to OSM directly if only OSM had 
  sufficient resources. Now assume that some big guy with many enemies, say 
  Google, or Microsoft, were to offer super-fat tile serving for OSM as I 
  outlined above. We would then scale back our own tile ops to a minimum, 
  and their server would be the main OSM tile server, and whenever you go to 
  www.osm.org your browser says connecting to osmtile.google.com or some 
  such.
 
  I think that the community would be less of a problem - I don't think many 
  would care if our tiles came from MS or Google or so as long as they were 
  unrestricted and the data remained free. But all those other big guys, of 
  whom you say that they would like to link to us - would *they* want to 
  send their users to get tiles from Google, MS or someone else? Or would 
  the we'd like to link to you but your infrastructure cannot take the load 
  and anyway your front page is ugly then be replaced with we'd like to 
  link to you but you must understand that the 'sponsored by XYZ' on the 
  shiny front page is a problem?
 
  Of course things would be even worse if the big sponsor wanted to put the 
  tiles or service under a non-open license (e.g. a license with a 
  noncommercial component). That, I think, would reduce overall 
  usefulness rather than improving it. Any funded tile serving would have to 
  be more open than what we can currently offer, not less.
 
  Bye
  Frederik
 
  --
  Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33
 
 
  Steve
 
  stevecoast.com
 
 
 Steve
 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)

Do we really have the mapping capacity (in person-hours and server hardware)
to handle 300M people a day providing feedback?

I mean we could point people to openstreetbugs, but it's already full up
because people are more interested in mapping the areas they are interested
in, not necessarily fixing bugs in other areas.

Also, after several tries at editors by our community, I think the problem
of editing map data online in a community fashion is simply a hard thing to
learn. It's a big leap for someone to go from hitting the Report a problem
button to even marking a POI let alone putting their first way down. If the
number of problem reporters is 300M and the number of mappers fixing the
problem is 300K, we'll quickly burn our mappers out.

On the other hand, maybe that's a good problem to have :)

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 8:30 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:

 Well let me take that back a bit - actually even doing some very simple
 cleanup of the interface and having a feedback mechanism *at all* would be a
 good first step, as people jumped on my recent OGD post in the comments:

http://opengeodata.org/the-importance-of-timing-to-feedback



 On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:27 PM, SteveC wrote:
  I think you're concentrating on tiles, but that's not really the
 bottleneck I would jump on first.
 
  The conversation goes like this:
 
  steve we have 300 million people a day look at our site and we would
 like to send their edits and feedback to OSM
 
  Really it's the API we're talking about. Tiles are just a CDN problem.
 
 
  On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:18 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
  Steve,
 
  They would like to link to us directly but don't think a) we can
  handle the load and b) don't think it would be a good user experience
  to dump people on to osm.org, what with the site design.
 
  To paraphrase (not specifically Wolfram, but the unnamed other megacorps
 you're chatting with):
 
  1. they'd like to link to us directly but our infrastrucutre is too
 weak;
 
  2. they would not want to give us a shitload of money to improve our
 infrastructure, but could imagine hosting something;
 
  3. there is fear that the community would view this negatively.
 
  To which I say, I don't think the community has anything against someone
 doing a glorified maps.cloudmade.com; if they have really fast servers and
 maybe even a CDN, can do lots of styles and make the tiles and services
 available under a free-for-all policy. That would be great, and would - if
 given sufficient long-term promise by whoever it is - allow us to reduce our
 tile serving to an experimental capacity, freeing up resources for the core
 database which obviously we must keep operating ourselves.
 
  But there is a logical problem here and that has nothing to do with us
 at all. You say that many would like to link to OSM directly if only OSM had
 sufficient resources. Now assume that some big guy with many enemies, say
 Google, or Microsoft, were to offer super-fat tile serving for OSM as I
 outlined above. We would then scale back our own tile ops to a minimum, and
 their server would be the main OSM tile server, and whenever you go to
 www.osm.org your browser says connecting to osmtile.google.com or some
 such.
 
  I think that the community would be less of a problem - I don't think
 many would care if our tiles came from MS or Google or so as long as they
 were unrestricted and the data remained free. But all those other big guys,
 of whom you say that they would like to link to us - would *they* want to
 send their users to get tiles from Google, MS or someone else? Or would the
 we'd like to link to you but your infrastructure cannot take the load and
 anyway your front page is ugly then be replaced with we'd like to link to
 you but you must understand that the 'sponsored by XYZ' on the shiny front
 page is a problem?
 
  Of course things would be even worse if the big sponsor wanted to put
 the tiles or service under a non-open license (e.g. a license with a
 noncommercial component). That, I think, would reduce overall usefulness
 rather than improving it. Any funded tile serving would have to be more open
 than what we can currently offer, not less.
 
  Bye
  Frederik
 
  --
  Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09
 E008°23'33
 
 
  Steve
 
  stevecoast.com
 

 Steve

 stevecoast.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)

OTRS = http://otrs.org/ (Open Source Ticket Request System)

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 8:50 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:


 On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:45 PM, Anthony wrote:

  OTRS?

 huh?

 
  On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:30 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
  Well let me take that back a bit - actually even doing some very simple
 cleanup of the interface and having a feedback mechanism *at all* would be a
 good first step, as people jumped on my recent OGD post in the comments:
 
 http://opengeodata.org/the-importance-of-timing-to-feedback
 
 
 
  On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:27 PM, SteveC wrote:
   I think you're concentrating on tiles, but that's not really the
 bottleneck I would jump on first.
  
   The conversation goes like this:
  
   steve we have 300 million people a day look at our site and we would
 like to send their edits and feedback to OSM
  
   Really it's the API we're talking about. Tiles are just a CDN problem.
  
  
   On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:18 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
   Steve,
  
   They would like to link to us directly but don't think a) we can
   handle the load and b) don't think it would be a good user experience
   to dump people on to osm.org, what with the site design.
  
   To paraphrase (not specifically Wolfram, but the unnamed other
 megacorps you're chatting with):
  
   1. they'd like to link to us directly but our infrastrucutre is too
 weak;
  
   2. they would not want to give us a shitload of money to improve our
 infrastructure, but could imagine hosting something;
  
   3. there is fear that the community would view this negatively.
  
   To which I say, I don't think the community has anything against
 someone doing a glorified maps.cloudmade.com; if they have really fast
 servers and maybe even a CDN, can do lots of styles and make the tiles and
 services available under a free-for-all policy. That would be great, and
 would - if given sufficient long-term promise by whoever it is - allow us to
 reduce our tile serving to an experimental capacity, freeing up resources
 for the core database which obviously we must keep operating ourselves.
  
   But there is a logical problem here and that has nothing to do with us
 at all. You say that many would like to link to OSM directly if only OSM had
 sufficient resources. Now assume that some big guy with many enemies, say
 Google, or Microsoft, were to offer super-fat tile serving for OSM as I
 outlined above. We would then scale back our own tile ops to a minimum, and
 their server would be the main OSM tile server, and whenever you go to
 www.osm.org your browser says connecting to osmtile.google.com or some
 such.
  
   I think that the community would be less of a problem - I don't think
 many would care if our tiles came from MS or Google or so as long as they
 were unrestricted and the data remained free. But all those other big guys,
 of whom you say that they would like to link to us - would *they* want to
 send their users to get tiles from Google, MS or someone else? Or would the
 we'd like to link to you but your infrastructure cannot take the load and
 anyway your front page is ugly then be replaced with we'd like to link to
 you but you must understand that the 'sponsored by XYZ' on the shiny front
 page is a problem?
  
   Of course things would be even worse if the big sponsor wanted to put
 the tiles or service under a non-open license (e.g. a license with a
 noncommercial component). That, I think, would reduce overall usefulness
 rather than improving it. Any funded tile serving would have to be more open
 than what we can currently offer, not less.
  
   Bye
   Frederik
  
   --
   Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09
 E008°23'33
  
  
   Steve
  
   stevecoast.com
  
 
  Steve
 
  stevecoast.com
 
 
  ___
  talk mailing list
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  http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
 

 Steve

 stevecoast.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)


On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:55 PM, Ian Dees wrote:

 Do we really have the mapping capacity (in person-hours and server hardware) 
 to handle 300M people a day providing feedback?

that's kind of the point

lets say you were a very large firm and you wanted to scale OSM to that level, 
how would you do it? Because I can't figure out a way that doesn't mean 'taking 
over' the servers, or forking.

But the sad thing is it applies for much lower numbers too - if you wanted to 
scale to 1 million / day editors let's say.


 
 I mean we could point people to openstreetbugs, but it's already full up 
 because people are more interested in mapping the areas they are interested 
 in, not necessarily fixing bugs in other areas.
 
 Also, after several tries at editors by our community, I think the problem of 
 editing map data online in a community fashion is simply a hard thing to 
 learn. It's a big leap for someone to go from hitting the Report a problem 
 button to even marking a POI let alone putting their first way down. If the 
 number of problem reporters is 300M and the number of mappers fixing the 
 problem is 300K, we'll quickly burn our mappers out.
 
 On the other hand, maybe that's a good problem to have :)
 
 On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 8:30 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
 Well let me take that back a bit - actually even doing some very simple 
 cleanup of the interface and having a feedback mechanism *at all* would be a 
 good first step, as people jumped on my recent OGD post in the comments:
 
http://opengeodata.org/the-importance-of-timing-to-feedback
 
 
 
 On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:27 PM, SteveC wrote:
  I think you're concentrating on tiles, but that's not really the bottleneck 
  I would jump on first.
 
  The conversation goes like this:
 
  steve we have 300 million people a day look at our site and we would like 
  to send their edits and feedback to OSM
 
  Really it's the API we're talking about. Tiles are just a CDN problem.
 
 
  On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:18 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
  Steve,
 
  They would like to link to us directly but don't think a) we can
  handle the load and b) don't think it would be a good user experience
  to dump people on to osm.org, what with the site design.
 
  To paraphrase (not specifically Wolfram, but the unnamed other megacorps 
  you're chatting with):
 
  1. they'd like to link to us directly but our infrastrucutre is too weak;
 
  2. they would not want to give us a shitload of money to improve our 
  infrastructure, but could imagine hosting something;
 
  3. there is fear that the community would view this negatively.
 
  To which I say, I don't think the community has anything against someone 
  doing a glorified maps.cloudmade.com; if they have really fast servers and 
  maybe even a CDN, can do lots of styles and make the tiles and services 
  available under a free-for-all policy. That would be great, and would - if 
  given sufficient long-term promise by whoever it is - allow us to reduce 
  our tile serving to an experimental capacity, freeing up resources for the 
  core database which obviously we must keep operating ourselves.
 
  But there is a logical problem here and that has nothing to do with us at 
  all. You say that many would like to link to OSM directly if only OSM had 
  sufficient resources. Now assume that some big guy with many enemies, say 
  Google, or Microsoft, were to offer super-fat tile serving for OSM as I 
  outlined above. We would then scale back our own tile ops to a minimum, 
  and their server would be the main OSM tile server, and whenever you go to 
  www.osm.org your browser says connecting to osmtile.google.com or some 
  such.
 
  I think that the community would be less of a problem - I don't think many 
  would care if our tiles came from MS or Google or so as long as they were 
  unrestricted and the data remained free. But all those other big guys, of 
  whom you say that they would like to link to us - would *they* want to 
  send their users to get tiles from Google, MS or someone else? Or would 
  the we'd like to link to you but your infrastructure cannot take the load 
  and anyway your front page is ugly then be replaced with we'd like to 
  link to you but you must understand that the 'sponsored by XYZ' on the 
  shiny front page is a problem?
 
  Of course things would be even worse if the big sponsor wanted to put the 
  tiles or service under a non-open license (e.g. a license with a 
  noncommercial component). That, I think, would reduce overall 
  usefulness rather than improving it. Any funded tile serving would have to 
  be more open than what we can currently offer, not less.
 
  Bye
  Frederik
 
  --
  Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33
 
 
  Steve
 
  stevecoast.com
 
 
 Steve
 
 stevecoast.com
 
 
 ___
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 talk@openstreetmap.org
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
 

Steve

Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)

On 18 June 2010 11:58, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
 But the sad thing is it applies for much lower numbers too - if you wanted to 
 scale to 1 million / day editors let's say.

I'm wondering if bulk uploaders are already hitting these kinds of
numbers, lets assume the bulk unloaders all went away and only live
humans making live edits, how much capacity would there be?

Alternatively depending on actual editing growth rates, they may be
similar to growth capacity rates of hardware, so while things may not
necessarily scale at present, but will in the future. That said there
seems to be a need for at least a hot spare database, I wonder how
much the down time cost OSM the other day in terms of editors being
turned off and not getting their quick fix that everyone has become
accustomed to.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:50 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:


 On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:45 PM, Anthony wrote:

  OTRS?

 huh?


Does anyone think it would be a good idea to set up OTRS for OSM?

If your question was what OTRS is, http://lmgtfy.com/?q=otrs

It's the system that Wikimedia uses for this sort of thing (providing prompt
responses to feedback issues utilizing a team of volunteers), and in my
experience they generally provide very quick responses.

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:55 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote:

 Do we really have the mapping capacity (in person-hours and server
 hardware) to handle 300M people a day providing feedback?


No, but there's no way 300 million people a day are going to provide
feedback.  Additionally, I'd expect the company sending all that feedback at
us to provide some manpower, at least temporarily, to at least sort through
the feedback and issue responses to the simple ones.

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:58 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:

 lets say you were a very large firm and you wanted to scale OSM to that
 level, how would you do it?


Gradually.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)

I think we can do better

http://customer.otrs.org/otrs/customer.pl

is a horrible interface. I'd like something that works like uservoice.com but 
is integrated in to the rails port (because tom says so). I actually think we 
should go with uservoice.com, it's all set up and would take 5 minutes to 
integrate, and then move to something self-hosted later. I don't think it would 
actually be super hard to write either. I even started doing it but got pissed 
off at all the negativity on this list... I must be getting old.

I outlined previously that you can do map and software bugs / features in one 
interface etc etc etc and uservoice isn't perfect blah blah blah. But I don't 
like the best being the enemy of the good.

I think openstreetbugs is a good first step but I'd want to do better.


On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:55 PM, Ian Dees wrote:
 OTRS = http://otrs.org/ (Open Source Ticket Request System)
 
 On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 8:50 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
 
 On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:45 PM, Anthony wrote:
 
  OTRS?
 
 huh?
 
 
  On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:30 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
  Well let me take that back a bit - actually even doing some very simple 
  cleanup of the interface and having a feedback mechanism *at all* would be 
  a good first step, as people jumped on my recent OGD post in the comments:
 
 http://opengeodata.org/the-importance-of-timing-to-feedback
 
 
 
  On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:27 PM, SteveC wrote:
   I think you're concentrating on tiles, but that's not really the 
   bottleneck I would jump on first.
  
   The conversation goes like this:
  
   steve we have 300 million people a day look at our site and we would 
   like to send their edits and feedback to OSM
  
   Really it's the API we're talking about. Tiles are just a CDN problem.
  
  
   On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:18 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
   Steve,
  
   They would like to link to us directly but don't think a) we can
   handle the load and b) don't think it would be a good user experience
   to dump people on to osm.org, what with the site design.
  
   To paraphrase (not specifically Wolfram, but the unnamed other megacorps 
   you're chatting with):
  
   1. they'd like to link to us directly but our infrastrucutre is too weak;
  
   2. they would not want to give us a shitload of money to improve our 
   infrastructure, but could imagine hosting something;
  
   3. there is fear that the community would view this negatively.
  
   To which I say, I don't think the community has anything against someone 
   doing a glorified maps.cloudmade.com; if they have really fast servers 
   and maybe even a CDN, can do lots of styles and make the tiles and 
   services available under a free-for-all policy. That would be great, and 
   would - if given sufficient long-term promise by whoever it is - allow 
   us to reduce our tile serving to an experimental capacity, freeing up 
   resources for the core database which obviously we must keep operating 
   ourselves.
  
   But there is a logical problem here and that has nothing to do with us 
   at all. You say that many would like to link to OSM directly if only OSM 
   had sufficient resources. Now assume that some big guy with many 
   enemies, say Google, or Microsoft, were to offer super-fat tile serving 
   for OSM as I outlined above. We would then scale back our own tile ops 
   to a minimum, and their server would be the main OSM tile server, and 
   whenever you go to www.osm.org your browser says connecting to 
   osmtile.google.com or some such.
  
   I think that the community would be less of a problem - I don't think 
   many would care if our tiles came from MS or Google or so as long as 
   they were unrestricted and the data remained free. But all those other 
   big guys, of whom you say that they would like to link to us - would 
   *they* want to send their users to get tiles from Google, MS or someone 
   else? Or would the we'd like to link to you but your infrastructure 
   cannot take the load and anyway your front page is ugly then be 
   replaced with we'd like to link to you but you must understand that the 
   'sponsored by XYZ' on the shiny front page is a problem?
  
   Of course things would be even worse if the big sponsor wanted to put 
   the tiles or service under a non-open license (e.g. a license with a 
   noncommercial component). That, I think, would reduce overall 
   usefulness rather than improving it. Any funded tile serving would have 
   to be more open than what we can currently offer, not less.
  
   Bye
   Frederik
  
   --
   Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33
  
  
   Steve
  
   stevecoast.com
  
 
  Steve
 
  stevecoast.com
 
 
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  talk mailing list
  talk@openstreetmap.org
  http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
 
 
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 stevecoast.com
 
 
 ___
 talk mailing

Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)


On Jun 17, 2010, at 8:27 PM, Anthony wrote:

 On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:50 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
 
 On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:45 PM, Anthony wrote:
 
  OTRS?
 
 huh?
 
 Does anyone think it would be a good idea to set up OTRS for OSM?
 
 If your question was what OTRS is, http://lmgtfy.com/?q=otrs
 
 It's the system that Wikimedia uses for this sort of thing (providing prompt 
 responses to feedback issues utilizing a team of volunteers), and in my 
 experience they generally provide very quick responses.
 
 On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:55 PM, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote:
 Do we really have the mapping capacity (in person-hours and server hardware) 
 to handle 300M people a day providing feedback?
 
 No, but there's no way 300 million people a day are going to provide 
 feedback.  Additionally, I'd expect the company sending all that feedback at 
 us to provide some manpower, at least temporarily, to at least sort through 
 the feedback and issue responses to the simple ones.

But the problem is all that manpower and resources would be seen as a 
'takeover'. Perhaps rightly.

 On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:58 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
 lets say you were a very large firm and you wanted to scale OSM to that 
 level, how would you do it?
 
 Gradually. 

Yeah that's Fredericks point: we're already growing. I say: grow faster!

Steve

stevecoast.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)


On Jun 17, 2010, at 8:12 PM, John Smith wrote:

 On 18 June 2010 11:58, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
 But the sad thing is it applies for much lower numbers too - if you wanted 
 to scale to 1 million / day editors let's say.
 
 I'm wondering if bulk uploaders are already hitting these kinds of
 numbers, lets assume the bulk unloaders all went away and only live
 humans making live edits, how much capacity would there be?
 
 Alternatively depending on actual editing growth rates, they may be
 similar to growth capacity rates of hardware, so while things may not
 necessarily scale at present, but will in the future. That said there
 seems to be a need for at least a hot spare database, I wonder how
 much the down time cost OSM the other day in terms of editors being
 turned off and not getting their quick fix that everyone has become
 accustomed to.

Thats exactly the kind of attitude I like. I don't think we should think of 
OSMers as 'customers' but certainly thinking of them in terms of how we can 
best serve them rather than what we want to work on.

For example all the early work I did in OSM, or a lot of it, was the annoying 
crappy work like db maintenance and stuff that tom and grant and jon and 
(...etc) now do admirably. We need that same kind of attitude in other areas - 
there are lots of neglected crappy things that need to be done instead of the 
more fun and interesting things. Which has always been the case, right? I just 
think it's more critical now and the balance is more clear between the two 
sides.

Let me give one simple example - I'd pay Frederick 100 euros to stop sending 
essays to the list for a month and use that time coding, even coding whatever 
he wants :-) :-) :-) Or freeze potlatch 1 (which may have actually happened, 
you never know), or get matt to write the feedback system I have in my head in 
a weekend... I don't think matt cares particularly about any charity but maybe 
I could pay some money to save the trees or whatever and he'd do it... or maybe 
I'll end up doing it myself, perish the thought!

Steve

stevecoast.com
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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:31 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:

 I think we can do better


Well then, feel free.



On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:32 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:

 On Jun 17, 2010, at 8:27 PM, Anthony wrote:
  I'd expect the company sending all that feedback at us to provide some
 manpower, at least

 temporarily, to at least sort through the feedback and issue responses to
 the simple ones.

 But the problem is all that manpower and resources would be seen as a
 'takeover'. Perhaps rightly.


The company wouldn't be doing anything that anyone else can't do.  Anyone
can set up an email address to take feedback on OSM, respond to that
feedback, create accounts to make edits, etc.

 On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:58 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
  lets say you were a very large firm and you wanted to scale OSM to that
 level, how would you do it?
 
  Gradually.

 Yeah that's Fredericks point: we're already growing. I say: grow faster!


I've found it to be not particularly useful to tell other people how fast
they should do something, at least people who you're not paying to do
something for you.  But your mileage may vary.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:31 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:

 I think we can do better

http://customer.otrs.org/otrs/customer.pl

 is a horrible interface. I'd like something that works like uservoice.combut 
 is integrated in to the rails port (because tom says so). I actually
 think we should go with uservoice.com, it's all set up and would take 5
 minutes to integrate, and then move to something self-hosted later. I don't
 think it would actually be super hard to write either. I even started doing
 it but got pissed off at all the negativity on this list... I must be
 getting old.


I think the negativity towards uservoice is that it is A) to use your words:
a horrible interface and B) more specifically, it is not meant for map
data in any way. I won't know what the user was looking at, what zoom level
they were at, if they clicked on a particular location for the problem,
etc. Additionally, it doesn't give us a good interface to work as a
community to fix the problems.

We could do all these things in the railsport and it would probably be a
good start.



 I outlined previously that you can do map and software bugs / features in
 one interface etc etc etc and uservoice isn't perfect blah blah blah. But I
 don't like the best being the enemy of the good.

 I think openstreetbugs is a good first step but I'd want to do better.


What do you mean by do better? Are there specific things other than be
like uservoice?
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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)

Just to chime in on the topic...

On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:18 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 To paraphrase (not specifically Wolfram, but the unnamed other megacorps
you're chatting with):
 1. they'd like to link to us directly but our infrastrucutre is too weak;
 2. they would not want to give us a shitload of money to improve our
infrastructure, but could imagine hosting something;
 3. there is fear that the community would view this negatively.

Most people on the talk-au list (or OSM'ing in Australia) will know about
NearMap (e.g.
http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-33.857061,151.215236z=18t=hnmd=20100510).  We
use the OSM data as the basis of our street maps, and actively support the
use of our PhotoMaps to extend OSM data (for instance, click the edit button
on our map page and you'll be dropped into Potlatch with our PhotoMaps as a
background to trace from).  We also use opaque map tiles generated from OSM
data for our map page in StreetMap mode.

We see serving StreetMap tiles as a key part of what we do, and are happy to
handle the load.  We're working hard to get our maps to be updated faster
from the core OSM data, so at some point we will be a viable Big Third-Party
Tile Server.

We also see it as key to OSM that we help to make editing as easy as
possible for the largest number of contributors, and we're actively looking
at ways to support simple edits such as adding addresses (addr:housenum,
etc) and naming un-named streets directly on our site, sending the edits
back to the OSM servers asap.  We're not intending to directly handle
feedback... we get enough of that already by email and tend to fix up the
OSM data ourselves, but of course that's not scalable.

Frederick's post is relevant; we have some concerns about the OSM
infrastructure, in that if the servers are down for any significant period
of time, or slow to respond, we need to be able to continue to show rapid
responses to edits made on our site.  That's technically a considerable
challenge.  We're also concerned about the OSM community reaction, and keen
to get relevant feedback about what we're doing and how we can best support
and improve OSM data.

On 18 June 2010 09:27, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:

 I think you're concentrating on tiles, but that's not really the bottleneck
 I would jump on first.
  The conversation goes like this:
  steve we have 300 million people a day look at our site and we would like
 to send their edits and feedback to OSM
  Really it's the API we're talking about. Tiles are just a CDN problem.


I'm not going to suggest specific figures, but we do expect to be sending a
*lot* of edits back to OSM, though not feedback.

Best regards
Ben

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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)


On Jun 17, 2010, at 8:50 PM, Anthony wrote:

 On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:31 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
 I think we can do better
 
 Well then, feel free.

that's a valid point but a nauseatingly pithy one when overused in response to 
simple comments.

 Yeah that's Fredericks point: we're already growing. I say: grow faster!
 
 I've found it to be not particularly useful to tell other people how fast 
 they should do something, at least people who you're not paying to do 
 something for you.  But your mileage may vary.

This is the problem with these threads on the list, you've taken it slightly 
out of context and suggested I was telling him what to do rather than he was 
asking me to slow down, and I have to sit around responding.

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)


On Jun 17, 2010, at 9:08 PM, Ian Dees wrote:

 
 
 On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:31 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
 I think we can do better
 
http://customer.otrs.org/otrs/customer.pl
 
 is a horrible interface. I'd like something that works like uservoice.com but 
 is integrated in to the rails port (because tom says so). I actually think we 
 should go with uservoice.com, it's all set up and would take 5 minutes to 
 integrate, and then move to something self-hosted later. I don't think it 
 would actually be super hard to write either. I even started doing it but got 
 pissed off at all the negativity on this list... I must be getting old.
 
 I think the negativity towards uservoice is that it is A) to use your words: 
 a horrible interface

that's a matter of opinion, any reasonable person I've ever met would prefer 
uservoice to trac or otrs or whatever.

 and B) more specifically, it is not meant for map data in any way.

and as I've said multiple hundreds of times, I know, and it doesn't matter. 
Just have a look at the OSM uservoice page and look at all the good stuff in 
there. Far better than you'll get in a million years in trac.

 I won't know what the user was looking at, what zoom level they were at, if 
 they clicked on a particular location for the problem, etc. Additionally, it 
 doesn't give us a good interface to work as a community to fix the problems.

blah fucking blah. as I said, multiple hundreds of times, you can fix all that 
and integrate something fairly simply in to the rails port - at some point in 
the future. Whereas a simple feedback system, today, is super useful.

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)


On Jun 17, 2010, at 9:22 PM, Ben Last wrote:
 Just to chime in on the topic...
 
 On Jun 17, 2010, at 7:18 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
  To paraphrase (not specifically Wolfram, but the unnamed other megacorps 
  you're chatting with):
  1. they'd like to link to us directly but our infrastrucutre is too weak;
  2. they would not want to give us a shitload of money to improve our 
  infrastructure, but could imagine hosting something;
  3. there is fear that the community would view this negatively.
 
 Most people on the talk-au list (or OSM'ing in Australia) will know about 
 NearMap (e.g. 
 http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-33.857061,151.215236z=18t=hnmd=20100510).  We 
 use the OSM data as the basis of our street maps, and actively support the 
 use of our PhotoMaps to extend OSM data (for instance, click the edit button 
 on our map page and you'll be dropped into Potlatch with our PhotoMaps as a 
 background to trace from).  We also use opaque map tiles generated from OSM 
 data for our map page in StreetMap mode.
 
 We see serving StreetMap tiles as a key part of what we do, and are happy to 
 handle the load.  We're working hard to get our maps to be updated faster 
 from the core OSM data, so at some point we will be a viable Big Third-Party 
 Tile Server.
 
 We also see it as key to OSM that we help to make editing as easy as possible 
 for the largest number of contributors, and we're actively looking at ways to 
 support simple edits such as adding addresses (addr:housenum, etc) and naming 
 un-named streets directly on our site, sending the edits back to the OSM 
 servers asap.  We're not intending to directly handle feedback... we get 
 enough of that already by email and tend to fix up the OSM data ourselves, 
 but of course that's not scalable.

That's super interesting though - can you give a deep feel for what the volume 
and content of those emails is?

Steve

stevecoast.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)

On 18 June 2010 11:49, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:

 That's super interesting though - can you give a deep feel for what the
 volume and content of those emails is?


Generally hey, my street's not in the right suburb, or hey, why isn't my
street shown?, or How come your address search doesn't find my house by
number?

Cheers
b

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0423 475 673
Development Manager (HyperWeb)
NearMap Pty Ltd
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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)


On Jun 17, 2010, at 10:11 PM, Ben Last wrote:

 On 18 June 2010 11:49, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
 That's super interesting though - can you give a deep feel for what the 
 volume and content of those emails is?
 
 Generally hey, my street's not in the right suburb

well at least this one is what I want to capture, super simply, and have a 
queue to be fixed. Right now we don't capture it _at all_ and it's a tragedy.

do you agree?

 , or hey, why isn't my street shown?, or How come your address search 
 doesn't find my house by number?

these ones can be at least helpful tertiary to the above, but step one is the 
above.

Steve

stevecoast.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)

On 18 June 2010 12:19, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:

 On Jun 17, 2010, at 10:11 PM, Ben Last wrote:
  Generally hey, my street's not in the right suburb
 well at least this one is what I want to capture, super simply, and have a
 queue to be fixed. Right now we don't capture it _at all_ and it's a
 tragedy.
  do you agree?


Well, fixing it isn't trivial, since there may be a bunch of reasons why
it's wrong (or it may not actually be wrong!).  We could store these and
forward to OSM, but as has been mentioned, we don't want to bounce our users
over to the OSM site (because we don't want them to have to be registered
with OSM) and sending such comments programatically is not simple.  But I do
agree that it's valuable feedback *if* there is the capacity to respond to
it.


  , or hey, why isn't my street shown?, or How come your address search
 doesn't find my house by number?
 these ones can be at least helpful tertiary to the above, but step one is
 the above.


Actually, I think it's the other way around.  The biggest issue with OSM for
the use cases that concern me right now is that its usability to locate an
address is pretty limited.  Improving that is the single thing (step one)
that would make it better (again, for my use cases).  So having streets with
correct names and at least some numbering data helps a lot.

Cheers
b

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Development Manager (HyperWeb)
NearMap Pty Ltd
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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)


On Jun 17, 2010, at 10:28 PM, Ben Last wrote:

 On 18 June 2010 12:19, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
 On Jun 17, 2010, at 10:11 PM, Ben Last wrote:
  Generally hey, my street's not in the right suburb
 well at least this one is what I want to capture, super simply, and have a 
 queue to be fixed. Right now we don't capture it _at all_ and it's a tragedy.
  do you agree?
 
 Well, fixing it isn't trivial, since there may be a bunch of reasons why it's 
 wrong (or it may not actually be wrong!).  We could store these and forward 
 to OSM, but as has been mentioned, we don't want to bounce our users over to 
 the OSM site (because we don't want them to have to be registered with OSM) 
 and sending such comments programatically is not simple.  But I do agree that 
 it's valuable feedback if there is the capacity to respond to it.

absolutely agreed - but the first step is to collect it, then we will respond 
to it (I volunteer!)

We can't start arse backward and have a response mechanism and then start 
collecting it, that makes no sense.


   , or hey, why isn't my street shown?, or How come your address search 
 doesn't find my house by number?
 these ones can be at least helpful tertiary to the above, but step one is the 
 above.
 
 Actually, I think it's the other way around.  The biggest issue with OSM for 
 the use cases that concern me right now is that its usability to locate an 
 address is pretty limited.  Improving that is the single thing (step one) 
 that would make it better (again, for my use cases).  So having streets with 
 correct names and at least some numbering data helps a lot.

Oh I agree but what I'm saying is that the above case is immediately fixable 
whereas the latter cases are implicitly fixable, with some more unknown work. 
See what I mean?



 
 Cheers
 b
 
 -- 
 Ben Last
 Development Manager (HyperWeb)
 NearMap Pty Ltd
 

Steve

stevecoast.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:46 PM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:

 that's a matter of opinion, any reasonable person I've ever met would
 prefer uservoice to trac or otrs or whatever.


For what?  From a glance at the two, OTRS and uservoice don't even seem to
be in the same category.

The two pieces of software seem to provide solutions for much different
problems.  Uservoice looks like it would be good for the big picture issues
that affect lots of people.  But after reading
http://opengeodata.org/the-importance-of-timing-to-feedback I thought of
OTRS, and I don't really see how Uservoice is in any way applicable.  But
maybe it's because I'm just not familiar enough with Uservoice.

If Uservoice is the answer, how hard would it be to set up an email to
Uservoice gateway?  I'm sure I'm not alone in that I don't want to mess with
signing up with Uservoice (or trac, for that matter) just to send feedback
and get a response (especially given that Uservoice is not being hosted by
OSM).  You've commented about the interface of OTRS, but the fact of the
matter is that the people submitting the feedback just don't see that
interface.  The interface is email, though it wouldn't be difficult to make
a quick web form which can send the email (along with information like what
zoom level they were at, if they clicked on a particular location for the
problem, etc.).

Anyway, if your point in this thread is just defending yourself against what
you see as an attack from Frederick, feel free to ignore this.  But if you'd
like some ideas on how to create a system to allow OSM users to easily get
feedback quickly from a real human being, I think you ought to look beyond
Uservoice.

I mean, even osm-talk works better than Uservoice in those terms, even if
you do have to put up with an admonishment about not using trac (see
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap/50322).  But
subscribing to osm-talk is another hurdle I don't think you want people to
have to jump through to just ask a question or make a suggestion.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)


On Jun 17, 2010, at 10:36 PM, Anthony wrote:
 Anyway, if your point in this thread is just defending yourself against what 
 you see as an attack from Frederick, feel free to ignore this.  But if you'd 
 like some ideas on how to create a system to allow OSM users to easily get 
 feedback quickly from a real human being, I think you ought to look beyond 
 Uservoice.

I do!

I do. I do. I do!

I keep saying that. The point though is that uservoice, in about 5 minutes, 
would provide a _ton_ of feedback and engagement especially from novice users 
who will otherwise just go away.

There are five million better things you can do after that, like making 
something with the uservoice UI that's built in to the rails port that deals 
with map bugs... we can do all that. The point is I don't want to wait for my 
space shuttle to take off when the pedal bike is ready to use right now.

Steve

stevecoast.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)

On 18 June 2010 12:32, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:

 On Jun 17, 2010, at 10:28 PM, Ben Last wrote:
  Well, fixing it isn't trivial, since there may be a bunch of reasons why
 it's wrong (or it may not actually be wrong!).  We could store these and
 forward to OSM, but as has been mentioned, we don't want to bounce our users
 over to the OSM site (because we don't want them to have to be registered
 with OSM) and sending such comments programatically is not simple.  But I do
 agree that it's valuable feedback if there is the capacity to respond to it.
 absolutely agreed - but the first step is to collect it, then we will
 respond to it (I volunteer!)
 We can't start arse backward and have a response mechanism and then start
 collecting it, that makes no sense.


Fair enough :)  However, whilst volunteering is impressive, we have to
consider issues like this: our site is seen by users as all NearMap.  Yes,
we acknowledge OSM in the terms and conditions and the like* but in general
the average user doesn't care - it's all NearMap to them.  So when they give
us feedback, they expect us to respond.  If the feedback's being handled by
a small volunteer team who lose interest/fall under the proverbial bus/go
off on a round-the-world trip, then our users see no response.

This isn't in any way to say that volunteer effort isn't the right way to
handle this; all I'm saying is that there are other concerns that a
commercial enterprise must consider :)  Which sort of brings us full circle
to the original posts about Wolfram and their thoughts on relying on OSM :)

* We're currently revising these pages to make it even clearer what comes
from OSM.


  Actually, I think it's the other way around.  The biggest issue with OSM
 for the use cases that concern me right now is that its usability to locate
 an address is pretty limited.  Improving that is the single thing (step
 one) that would make it better (again, for my use cases).  So having
 streets with correct names and at least some numbering data helps a lot.

 Oh I agree but what I'm saying is that the above case is immediately
 fixable whereas the latter cases are implicitly fixable, with some more
 unknown work. See what I mean?

Ah, yes.  Agreed as to the fact that fixing these latter cases means more
work!

Cheers
b

-- 
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0423 475 673
Development Manager (HyperWeb)
NearMap Pty Ltd
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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 12:40 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:


 On Jun 17, 2010, at 10:36 PM, Anthony wrote:
  Anyway, if your point in this thread is just defending yourself against
 what you see as an attack from Frederick, feel free to ignore this.  But if
 you'd like some ideas on how to create a system to allow OSM users to easily
 get feedback quickly from a real human being, I think you ought to look
 beyond Uservoice.

 I do!

 I do. I do. I do!

 I keep saying that. The point though is that uservoice, in about 5 minutes,
 would provide a _ton_ of feedback and engagement especially from novice
 users who will otherwise just go away.


As would OTRS.  Or even just an unmoderated,
anyone-can-post-without-being-subscribed mailing list staffed by some
faithful volunteers who could provide more friendly responses than
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap/50322 (which is not
to pick on Richard - his response was to an OSM regular and not a newbie -
the fact of the matter is that a newbie wouldn't have even found the list in
the first place).

See https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/unblock-en-l
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[OSM-talk] timezones

random question that came up on IRC - are the timezones mapped in OSM?

Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)


On Jun 17, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Ben Last wrote:

 On 18 June 2010 12:32, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
 On Jun 17, 2010, at 10:28 PM, Ben Last wrote:
  Well, fixing it isn't trivial, since there may be a bunch of reasons why 
  it's wrong (or it may not actually be wrong!).  We could store these and 
  forward to OSM, but as has been mentioned, we don't want to bounce our 
  users over to the OSM site (because we don't want them to have to be 
  registered with OSM) and sending such comments programatically is not 
  simple.  But I do agree that it's valuable feedback if there is the 
  capacity to respond to it.
 absolutely agreed - but the first step is to collect it, then we will respond 
 to it (I volunteer!)
 We can't start arse backward and have a response mechanism and then start 
 collecting it, that makes no sense.
 
 Fair enough :)  However, whilst volunteering is impressive, we have to 
 consider issues like this: our site is seen by users as all NearMap.  Yes, 
 we acknowledge OSM in the terms and conditions and the like* but in general 
 the average user doesn't care - it's all NearMap to them.  So when they give 
 us feedback, they expect us to respond.  If the feedback's being handled by a 
 small volunteer team who lose interest/fall under the proverbial bus/go off 
 on a round-the-world trip, then our users see no response.

Oh totally agreed - my suggestion wasn't 'bounce all feedback to OSM' but 
either 'the map isn't ours we will bounce it to OSM and try to help' (maybe you 
can be copied on the bug, or something) or I'm saying that this is totally 
separate - forget about your customers/users for a second and think what would 
be good for OSM, it would be good for us to have such a system.

 This isn't in any way to say that volunteer effort isn't the right way to 
 handle this; all I'm saying is that there are other concerns that a 
 commercial enterprise must consider :)  Which sort of brings us full circle 
 to the original posts about Wolfram and their thoughts on relying on OSM :)

yay!


 * We're currently revising these pages to make it even clearer what comes 
 from OSM.
  
  Actually, I think it's the other way around.  The biggest issue with OSM 
  for the use cases that concern me right now is that its usability to locate 
  an address is pretty limited.  Improving that is the single thing (step 
  one) that would make it better (again, for my use cases).  So having 
  streets with correct names and at least some numbering data helps a lot.
 
 Oh I agree but what I'm saying is that the above case is immediately fixable 
 whereas the latter cases are implicitly fixable, with some more unknown work. 
 See what I mean?
 Ah, yes.  Agreed as to the fact that fixing these latter cases means more 
 work!

exactly

so all I'm saying is - fix the easier ones first!

 
 Cheers
 b
 
 -- 
 Ben Last
 0423 475 673
 Development Manager (HyperWeb)
 NearMap Pty Ltd
 

Steve

stevecoast.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)


On Jun 17, 2010, at 10:47 PM, Anthony wrote:

 On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 12:40 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:
 
 On Jun 17, 2010, at 10:36 PM, Anthony wrote:
  Anyway, if your point in this thread is just defending yourself against 
  what you see as an attack from Frederick, feel free to ignore this.  But if 
  you'd like some ideas on how to create a system to allow OSM users to 
  easily get feedback quickly from a real human being, I think you ought to 
  look beyond Uservoice.
 
 I do!
 
 I do. I do. I do!
 
 I keep saying that. The point though is that uservoice, in about 5 minutes, 
 would provide a _ton_ of feedback and engagement especially from novice users 
 who will otherwise just go away.
 
 As would OTRS.  Or even just an unmoderated, 
 anyone-can-post-without-being-subscribed mailing list staffed by some 
 faithful volunteers who could provide more friendly responses than 
 http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap/50322 (which is not 
 to pick on Richard - his response was to an OSM regular and not a newbie - 
 the fact of the matter is that a newbie wouldn't have even found the list in 
 the first place).

No - here I have to disagree. OTRS is a horrible system, whereas uservoice is 
easypeasy. As I said on IRC just now - I don't care about uservoice 
specifically, there are lots of similar services around but the workflow is 
very nice.

Steve

stevecoast.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] Big sponsors (was: WolframAlpha uses OpenStreetMap data)

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 12:54 AM, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote:

 OTRS is a horrible system, whereas uservoice is easypeasy.


From whose perspective?  Send an email, wait 3 minutes and 42 seconds,
receive a response that your issue has been resolved and thanking you for
your report.  That's my last experience with Wikipedia's feedback system,
which uses OTRS.  Doesn't get any more easypeasy than that.

Certainly better than go to http://osm.uservoice.com/ , click on sign up,
click on signup, pick a username, pick a password, type a query, hit
search, hit create new idea, hit suggest it, and maybe receive a
response one day (I guess I should confirm my email?).

Who's going through the list of suggestions and sending responses to the
people who made them?


 As I said on IRC just now - I don't care about uservoice specifically,
 there are lots of similar services around but the workflow is very nice.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_issue_tracking_systems
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Re: [talk-au] Hikers on this list?

2010-06-17 Per discussione John Henderson

On 17/06/10 15:48, John Smith wrote:

 I knew someone had brought it up in the past, but I'm wondering if we
 could map it as an area rather than a line?

Arguably the best approach would be to mark the wilderness area as such, 
and perhaps show any tracks stopping at the boundaries.

Others may have different suggestions to air.

John H


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Re: [talk-au] Hikers on this list?

On 17 June 2010 15:59, John Henderson snow...@gmx.com wrote:
 On 17/06/10 15:48, John Smith wrote:

 I knew someone had brought it up in the past, but I'm wondering if we
 could map it as an area rather than a line?

 Arguably the best approach would be to mark the wilderness area as such, and
 perhaps show any tracks stopping at the boundaries.

 Others may have different suggestions to air.

I was thinking from a relation perspective encompassing all segments
of the route, including a wilderness area as part of the relation
would probably work as well.

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Re: [talk-au] Proposal to update weather monitoring_stations using BoM data.

2010-06-17 Per discussione Elizabeth Dodd

On Thu, 17 Jun 2010, you wrote:
 3. Examples: Beaudesert Drumley Street
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/774393256
  or: Hay Airport
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/774393252
  * Completely new site; BoM data lists WMO:id which doesn't occur
in any current OSM node.

so now the Hay Airport site is in twice
because it is also known as Hay AWS

 
 4. Examples: Casino Airport
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/741764824
  or: Hillston Airport
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/619722706
  * Similar to case 1, but current OSM entry is not from the NOAA
import changeset. It may have been edited since, or is a coincidental
already extant monitoring_station with WMO:id matching BoM entry.
  * This time I don't update location details, but instead add the
 
Hillston was entered before any import and the import moved to the site as 
best could be identified by survey (no physical access to aerodrome) 


-- 
Truth is the most valuable thing we have -- so let us economize it.
-- Mark Twain

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Re: [talk-au] Hikers on this list?

2010-06-17 Per discussione Richard Colless






Do you have
any suggestions on how contours should be marked? eg every

  10m elevation, or 5 or 50 or ... ?
  

In regard to contours, the maps from Contours Australia work
really well. For Garmin devices, they can be downloaded concurrently
with OSM maps. I have been using them in this way in my Etrex for about
6 months now.

Richard C.




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Re: [talk-au] Hikers on this list?

2010-06-17 Per discussione Tom Brennan

On 17/06/2010 11:30 AM, John Smith wrote:
On Thu, June 17, 2010 4:27 pm, tom.bren...@ampcapital.com wrote:
 Do you have any suggestions on how contours should be marked? eg
 every 10m elevation, or 5 or 50 or ... ?
Depends on the scale of the map. 1:25000 maps are typically rendered 
with 10m or 20m contours. Every 5th or 10th contour should be in bold.

 navigation are: - tracks - render as dashed black line

 Can you put this in OSM terms?

What do you mean by OSM terms (I'm a bit of a newbie)

 - ideally there needs to be more granularity of track
 difficulty - track_visibility=* is probably useful -
 sac_scale=* is less useful as it is too specific to alpine
 areas - however, something indicating difficulty/exposure would
 be useful

 This came up on IRC the other day, there the suggestion with sac
 scale was it should be limited to things SAC has actually
 evaluated, and there is no equivalent body in Australia so there
 probably needs a new/different tag for difficulty ratings in
 Australia difficulty:au=*
The AS2156 discussed elsewhere is not great, but better than nothing. 
It's too much to be able to catch everything about a track in one or two 
tags.

 - intermittent stream - thin dashed blue - main deficiency in
 tagging is the need for an intermittent watercourse tag eg
 waterway=stream_non_perennial or intermittent=yes

 I don't think we have a tag for this at present, out of those 2
 choices intermittent=yes is shorter, although we probably should
 with all the dry creek beds out there most of the time. In any case
 what ever is decided needs to be documented.
My preference is for intermittent=yes. That way it can be applied to
rivers as well as streams. We've got intermittent rivers in Australia,
that's for sure.

 - other topographic features like peaks, passes, ranges, ridges,
 spurs, valleys - should have names render but probably no other
 marker - some of those (eg ridges, spurs) don't seem to have any
 method in OSM (proposed or otherwise) for tagging at the moment

 Peaks usually get the elevation printed, any thoughts on how to tag
 the rest?

 A lot of these might fit under the natural=* section...
 natural=cliff etc...
There have been various discussions about how to tag things like ranges,
ridges, spurs and valleys, which don't have distinct boundaries. So far 
nothing has come of them.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_place_tags
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Relations/Proposed/Region
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Geographical_Places

My thinking was along the lines of the latter... but that got
comprehensively voted down...

See
http://ozultimate.com/kanangra.png
for example of map section with a variety of different geographic 
features, many of which can't easily be represented in OSM at the moment 
(Gangerang Range, Kilpatrick Causeway, Crafts Wall, Brennan Top, 
Seriphos Pit, Seriphos Cliffs, Gabes Gap)

cheers

Tom Brennan
Bushwalking? http://ozultimate.com/bushwalking
Canyoning? http://ozultimate.com/canyoning


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Re: [talk-au] Hikers on this list?

2010-06-17 Per discussione Tom Brennan

On 17/06/2010 3:46 PM, John Henderson wrote:
 I may have raised this issue in the past.  Walking tracks are never
 signposted or otherwise marked through declared wilderness areas.  This
 includes some sections of the Australian Alps Walking Track.  Maps
 should not show tracks in those specific wilderness areas.  It's every
 man to herself, so to speak.

Not always true. For example, from the Plan of Management for Kanangra 
Boyd National Park
Existing walking tracks on the Kanangra Tops within the wilderness (as 
indicated on the map on the central pages of this plan) will be retained 
and managed to minimise impacts on natural values.
These tracks would certainly be expected to be mapped.

It depends on the park and the local Parks and Wildlife Service.

cheers

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://ozultimate.com/bushwalking

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Re: [talk-au] Hikers on this list?

On 17 June 2010 22:38, Richard Colless fire...@ar.com.au wrote:
 In regard to contours, the maps from Contours Australia work really well.
 For Garmin devices, they can be downloaded concurrently with OSM maps. I
 have been using them in this way in my Etrex for about 6 months now.

I've imported the SRTM data NASA produced which I think is 1m vertical
and ~90m horizontal, but only for a limited area since I'm waiting on
a HDD upgrade to the server... Although if the other information is
more accurate I'll happily use it instead...

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Re: [talk-au] Hikers on this list?

On 17 June 2010 23:08, Tom Brennan webs...@ozultimate.com wrote:
 Depends on the scale of the map. 1:25000 maps are typically rendered
 with 10m or 20m contours. Every 5th or 10th contour should be in bold.

I'm used to mapnik zoom levels, I'll have to figure out what 1:25000
represents, although I haven't really started on a style sheet yet.

 navigation are: - tracks - render as dashed black line

 Can you put this in OSM terms?

 What do you mean by OSM terms (I'm a bit of a newbie)

something like highway=track, grade=3 ?

 The AS2156 discussed elsewhere is not great, but better than nothing.
 It's too much to be able to catch everything about a track in one or two
 tags.

I think AS2156 sets minimum standards for the entire track, in other
words what is the worst to expect from this track... Although we could
tag various section of track at different ratings...

 My preference is for intermittent=yes. That way it can be applied to
 rivers as well as streams. We've got intermittent rivers in Australia,
 that's for sure.

True...

 There have been various discussions about how to tag things like ranges,
 ridges, spurs and valleys, which don't have distinct boundaries. So far
 nothing has come of them.
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_place_tags
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Relations/Proposed/Region
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Geographical_Places

 My thinking was along the lines of the latter... but that got
 comprehensively voted down...

I'd suggest that we try tagging and then rendering some/all of these
suggestions and see what works best then we can have another go at
documenting it for actual use, I generally don't put much stock in the
voting system...

 See
 http://ozultimate.com/kanangra.png
 for example of map section with a variety of different geographic
 features, many of which can't easily be represented in OSM at the moment
 (Gangerang Range, Kilpatrick Causeway, Crafts Wall, Brennan Top,
 Seriphos Pit, Seriphos Cliffs, Gabes Gap)

Have these features been added to OSM? If so we can try and start to
render them. Also what is the lat/lon of the area?

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Re: [talk-au] Hikers on this list?

2010-06-17 Per discussione Tom Brennan

On 17/06/2010 11:25 PM, John Smith wrote:
 navigation are: - tracks - render as dashed black line

 Can you put this in OSM terms?

 What do you mean by OSM terms (I'm a bit of a newbie)

 something like highway=track, grade=3 ?

OK
- highway=path - dashed black line
- highway=track+car=no - long thick black dashed line
- highway=track+car=yes - long thick red dashed line

 See
 http://ozultimate.com/kanangra.png
 for example of map section with a variety of different geographic
 features, many of which can't easily be represented in OSM at the moment
 (Gangerang Range, Kilpatrick Causeway, Crafts Wall, Brennan Top,
 Seriphos Pit, Seriphos Cliffs, Gabes Gap)

 Have these features been added to OSM? If so we can try and start to
 render them. Also what is the lat/lon of the area?

No they haven't. Area is approx lat=-33.9753lon=150.1336 but it's not a 
great area to start with. Geographic items are difficult to map without 
good quality aerial photography, which we don't have for that area 
(Kanangra).

Better would be to start around North Lawson 
(lat=-33.71027lon=150.43344zoom=15) or Leura/Wentworth Falls 
(lat=-33.72384lon=150.3622zoom=15). I can try and add some more 
geographic features for them, but probably not til next week.

cheers

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://ozultimate.com/bushwalking

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Re: [talk-au] Hikers on this list?

On 18 June 2010 00:18, Tom Brennan webs...@ozultimate.com wrote:
 No they haven't. Area is approx lat=-33.9753lon=150.1336 but it's not a
 great area to start with. Geographic items are difficult to map without
 good quality aerial photography, which we don't have for that area
 (Kanangra).

You're only about 10km out of Nearmap coverage... that kinda sucks...
Although with a lot of tree cover it tends to be difficult to map as
well, you may need to do a lot of extrapolation...

 Better would be to start around North Lawson
 (lat=-33.71027lon=150.43344zoom=15) or Leura/Wentworth Falls
 (lat=-33.72384lon=150.3622zoom=15). I can try and add some more
 geographic features for them, but probably not til next week.

There's no rush, I'll probably not make a start on a style sheet till
the weekend anyway...

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Re: [talk-au] Hikers on this list?

2010-06-17 Per discussione John Henderson

On 17/06/10 23:13, Tom Brennan wrote:

 Not always true. For example, from the Plan of Management for Kanangra
 Boyd National Park
 Existing walking tracks on the Kanangra Tops within the wilderness (as
 indicated on the map on the central pages of this plan) will be retained
 and managed to minimise impacts on natural values.
 These tracks would certainly be expected to be mapped.

 It depends on the park and the local Parks and Wildlife Service.

Thanks - I wasn't aware of exceptions.

John H

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[talk-au] Fwd: [transit-developers] NSW Public Transport changes license terms to CC-BY-SA

2010-06-17 Per discussione Alex (Maxious) Sadleir

Pro: Stop/Station/Wharf locations in compatible licence
Con: Licence not compatible with OSM for very much longer :

-- Forwarded message --
From: Noam Ben Haim noa...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 7:09 AM
Subject: [transit-developers] NSW Public Transport changes license terms
To: transit-develop...@googlegroups.com

On the heels of TfL's announcement fortnight, today there are more good news
from the commonwealth Public Transportation organizations. New South Wales
today announces that it changes the terms of service for the feed it
released back in Sept 2009. The new license is using CC Attribution
ShareAlike 2.5 Australia.

http://www.131500.com.au/transportdata/changes.asp

This dataset is released in TransXchange format.

Best
Noam

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Re: [talk-au] Residential landuse

2010-06-17 Per discussione Ben Kelley

From a local govt point of view these are different to both rural and 
residential.

Normally the lot size would be too small to make a living from.

A hobby farm could have a rural zoning.

  - Ben.

Sent from my HTC

-Original Message-
From: John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, 17 June 2010 12:07
To: Craig Feuerherdt craigfeuerhe...@gmail.com
Cc: talk-au talk-au@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Residential landuse

On 17 June 2010 10:39, Craig Feuerherdt craigfeuerhe...@gmail.com wrote:
 I am facing the same issue in Bendigo. I have been considering suggesting a
 landuse=rural_residential tag. AS you state, these blocks are too small for

Aren't they commonly known as hobby farms if you have a few animals
for tax purposes?

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[talk-au] Natural Earth Data

Anyone know if this has any relationship to OSM (i.e, is partly derived from
OSM, or has been used as a basis for OSM)?
http://www.naturalearthdata.com/
Cheers
b

-- 
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Development Manager (HyperWeb)
NearMap Pty Ltd
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Re: [talk-au] Hikers on this list?

I've started building up some map layers, so far I have a base layer,
as well as shifting contours to their own layer, but only for select
areas due to lack of hdd space, so far only Bris and Syd.

http://maps.bigtincan.com/?z=17ll=-26.372,152.838layer=BFFFTFF

From there I plan to start making a hiking specific features render on
top on it's own transparent layer, or maybe a couple of layers so we
can play round with how things display without needing to edit massive
style sheets.

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Re: [talk-au] Natural Earth Data

2010-06-17 Per discussione Sam Vekemans

Cool,
No idea about the legals. ... it looks like it's Public Domain...

But i think it does help with the GroundTruthPlanet Contour   Garmin
Maps than im making :)
As well as serves as the good grid for the WikiMAP Books that im working on.

Great Find,
Cheers,
Sam


On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Ben Last ben.l...@nearmap.com wrote:
 Anyone know if this has any relationship to OSM (i.e, is partly derived from
 OSM, or has been used as a basis for OSM)?
 http://www.naturalearthdata.com/
 Cheers
 b

 --
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 Development Manager (HyperWeb)
 NearMap Pty Ltd


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Re: [Talk-br] Alteração de tipo de vias nas margin ais

2010-06-17 Per discussione Claudomiro Nascimento Junior

bem, pode-se utilizar a tag maxspeed em aplicações de roteamento tb...

Me preocupo com a questão estética - em níveis de zomm médio, fica
meio esquisito uma trunk colada numa motorway...

2010/6/17 Diogo W Nunes diogownunes2...@yahoo.com.br:
 Olá Pessoal,

 Como sabem, estou envolvido no projeto de mapeamento da cidade de São Paulo. 
 Gostaria de trazer um questionamento ao grupo, já que somos nós que definimos 
 as regras que devemos obedecer no mapeamento.

 As vias marginais da cidade de São Paulo (Via Marginal do Rio Tietê e Via 
 Marginal do Rio Pinheiros) estão atualmente mapeadas tomas como motorway, 
 independente de qual faixa de rolamento seja: Expressa, Central ou Local.

 Minha sugestão seria mudar esta regra: As vias Expressas continuariam como 
 motorway, as vias Centrais (e Locais onde não houvessem locais) seriam 
 trunk e as vias Locais (onde houvessem vias Centrais) seriam primary.

 Um dos benefícios seria para algoritmos de roteirização (como o que estou 
 desenvolvendo) que poderiam sugerir a via de maior velocidade de maneira 
 adequada. Atualmente, quando pedimos uma rota, o software utiliza vias 
 locais, expressas e centrais indiscriminadamente, devido ao uso das tags.

 Atenciosamente,

 Diogo W Nunes (OSM: diogow)
 di...@diogow.net




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Re: [Talk-br] Alteração de tipo de vias nas margi nais

2010-06-17 Per discussione Vitor George

Eu acredito que tanto a expressa como a central deveriam ser mapeadas como
motorway, porque elas tem capacidade similar. Creio que em muitos pontos
elas tem o mesmo número de faixas e velocidade iguais. Ja a local eu tenho
dúvida entre trunk e primary, porque tem uma capacidade bem menor do que as
outras pistas.

2010/6/17 Claudomiro Nascimento Junior claudom...@claudomiro.com

 bem, pode-se utilizar a tag maxspeed em aplicações de roteamento tb...

 Me preocupo com a questão estética - em níveis de zomm médio, fica
 meio esquisito uma trunk colada numa motorway...

 2010/6/17 Diogo W Nunes diogownunes2...@yahoo.com.br:
  Olá Pessoal,
 
  Como sabem, estou envolvido no projeto de mapeamento da cidade de São
 Paulo. Gostaria de trazer um questionamento ao grupo, já que somos nós que
 definimos as regras que devemos obedecer no mapeamento.
 
  As vias marginais da cidade de São Paulo (Via Marginal do Rio Tietê e Via
 Marginal do Rio Pinheiros) estão atualmente mapeadas tomas como motorway,
 independente de qual faixa de rolamento seja: Expressa, Central ou Local.
 
  Minha sugestão seria mudar esta regra: As vias Expressas continuariam
 como motorway, as vias Centrais (e Locais onde não houvessem locais)
 seriam trunk e as vias Locais (onde houvessem vias Centrais) seriam
 primary.
 
  Um dos benefícios seria para algoritmos de roteirização (como o que estou
 desenvolvendo) que poderiam sugerir a via de maior velocidade de maneira
 adequada. Atualmente, quando pedimos uma rota, o software utiliza vias
 locais, expressas e centrais indiscriminadamente, devido ao uso das tags.
 
  Atenciosamente,
 
  Diogo W Nunes (OSM: diogow)
  di...@diogow.net
 
 
 
 
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[Talk-br] Eventos comunitários no FISL

2010-06-17 Per discussione Samuel Vale

Olá pessoal,

O FISL está chegando, alguns de nós já confirmaram presença no evento e
já enviamos uma palestra sobre o projeto. Se alguém tiver alguma ideia
pra um evento comunitário do projeto durante o FISL, a hora é essa:

http://softwarelivre.org/fisl11/noticias/fisl11-recebe-propostas-para-eventos-comunitarios-ate-20-de-junho

Segundo as regras do post acima, não serão aceitos eventos para
divulgação de projeto apenas. Assim, teríamos de bolar algo diferente,
como uma reunião nacional pra discutir nossa aplicação de tags de vias,
ou uma reunião do grupo mesmo.

Que acham?

Abraço,
-- 
Samuel Vale srcv...@minaslivre.org


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Re: [Talk-de] Wie mappe ich eine Litfaßsäule?

2010-06-17 Per discussione bkmap

Philip Gillißen schrieb:
 Hallo zusammen!
 
 Da Litfaßsäulen einen guten Orientierungspunkt bieten, wollte ich diese
 auch in der Karte erfassen.
 Nur finde ich leider keine Information dazu in dieser Liste oder im Wiki.
 
 Wäre schon, wenn mir einer einen Tipp dazu geben könnte.
 

Hallo,
ich denke eine Litfaßsäule kann man nach dem vorgeschlagenen Schema in
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Proposed_features/information
erfassen, wenn man es etwas erweitert.

z.B.:
information=board
board_type=advertising_column

oder
information=advertising_column

Gruß Burkhard


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Re: [Talk-de] Wie mappe ich eine Litfaßsäule?

2010-06-17 Per discussione Ulf Lamping

Am 17.06.2010 08:54, schrieb bkmap:
 ich denke eine Litfaßsäule kann man nach dem vorgeschlagenen Schema in
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Proposed_features/information
 erfassen, wenn man es etwas erweitert.

 z.B.:
 information=board
 board_type=advertising_column

 oder
 information=advertising_column

Das finde ich jetzt nicht so gut. Ich würde eigentlich schon gerne einen 
klaren Unterschied zwischen touristischen Informationen und einfacher 
Werbung haben.

Zitat: Der Schlüssel tourism=information beschreibt verschiedenen 
Informationsquellen für Touristen, Reisende und Besucher. 
Information=xy ist ja als Untertag zum tourism=information gedacht 
(oder zumindest mal so entstanden).

Eine Litfaßsäule ist (meist?) schlicht Werbung, und gehört für mich 
sinngemäß - zusammen mit diesen großen (3*2m?) Plakatwänden die dem 
gleichen Zweck dienen - eben nicht unter touristische information. 
Auch wenn die teilweise ähnlich aussehen mögen, ist das ein ganz anderes 
Anwendungsgebiet.

Meine Idee wäre sowas wie:

advertising=column (oder auch advertising=advertising_column)

bzw.für Plakatwände

advertising=board (oder auch advertising=billboard)

... wäre aber für weitere Vorschläge offen ;-)

Litfaßsäulen sind als Orientierungspunkte ganz gut, da es auch nicht 
ganz so viele davon gibt. Ob man jetzt die omnipräsenten Plakatwände 
o.ä. eintragen will mag jeder für sich entscheiden, aber zumindest 
hätten wir dann ein passendes Tag ...

Gruß, ULFL

P.S: Wg. Begriffsfindung Litfaßsäule: leo sagt advertising column oder 
advertising pillar, die englische Wikipedia spricht von advertising 
column

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Re: [Talk-de] Fahrrad-Access-Map

2010-06-17 Per discussione Bernd Wurst

Am Mittwoch 16 Juni 2010, 21:45:55 schrieb Martin Simon:
 Das gute ist eigentlich, daß die Leute, die path so verwenden (für
 neutrale Pfade in Wald und Flur) eigentlich nichts falsch machen, da
 diese Verwendung auch von path abgedeckt ist.

Leider gibt es fuer Untergruende so derartig viele verschiedene denkbare Werte 
und so wenig verbreiteten Konsens, dass man momentan nicht daran denken kann, 
diese Werte zu nutzen. 

Momentan ist also ein Trampelpfad im Wald, auf dem man (im Sommer) theoretisch 
auch mit nem Fahrrad durch kann nicht zu unterscheiden von einem asphaltierten 
Weg, der vielleicht kein blaues Schild bekommen hat aber dennoch ein prima 
Radweg ist.

Als Nutzer der Daten interessiert mich doch primaer, wo ich mit z.B. Fahrrad 
mit Anhaenger fahren kann. Bisher habe ich da beim Mappen die (oft nicht 
vorhandenen) Schilder nur sekundaer genutzt und primaer auf die Nutzbarkeit 
(rechtlich und physisch) geschaut und das so getagged (Fahrradweg ist das wo 
man mit dem Fahrrad angenehm fahren kann. Wer gerne Dreckpisten mit dem 
Fahrrad faehrt faehrt auch auf Fusswegen). 
Jetzt sehe ich mit grossem Schrecken, dass neue Wege in Wald und Flur 
irgendwie grundsaetzlich als path getagged sind, in der Karte ist alles nur 
noch schwarz gestrichelt und ich weiss gar nicht mehr wo man was darf. Hier 
hab ich noch den Lokal-Bonus dass ich mir sicher bin dass ich alle guten 
Fahrradstrecken schon vor langem selbst gemapped habe. Aber fuer fremde ist 
das eine wesentlich schlechter nutzbare Karte.

Gruss, Bernd, der heute aus eigener Dummheit nur ein US-Tastaturlayout zur 
Verfuegung hat... :(

-- 
Wenn man Tiere nicht essen soll, warum sind Sie dann aus Fleisch?
  -  Quelle: http://german-bash.org/action/show/id/106951


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[Talk-de] sprachnavi-tipp

2010-06-17 Per discussione o...@tappenbeck.net

hi !

es soll ein navi mit sprache beschafft werden - die routenführung des 
garmin gpsmap kommt nicht so gut an.

kann einer von euch eines empfehlen was später vielleicht auch mit osm 
genutzt werden kann - am besten wäre die nutzung des gelieferten systems 
und von osm in einer installation (umschaltmöglichkeit).

gruß Jan :-)

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Re: [Talk-de] Fahrrad-Access-Map

2010-06-17 Per discussione Andreas Tille

Hallo,

zwei Fragen hätte ich noch:

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 03:28:02PM +0200, Thomas Ineichen wrote:
 http://access.t-i.ch/
 
 benutzte Farben:
 blau: Radweg
 türkis:   Radfahrstreifen
 grün: Radfahren erlaubt
 hellgrün: Tempo 30

Inwiefern ist die Angabe von Tempo 30 relevant für's Fahrradfahren.
Mich haben diese Kennzeichnungen eher verwirrt, weil sie die

   oneway:bicycle=no

getaggten Straßen, nach denen ich gesucht habe, überdecken.  Das
würde ich eher weglassen.

Zweite Frage: Es gibt doch auch diese kleinen Schilder (etwa 15cm x 15cm),
auf denen ein grünes Fahrrad mit einem Richtungspfeil eine beliebte
Fahrradroute anzeigt.  Wie soll das grundsätzlich getaggt werden und
wie könnte man dieses auf dem Access-Layer konsistent darstellen.

Viele Grüße

   Andreas.

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Re: [Talk-de] sprachnavi-tipp - ergänzung

2010-06-17 Per discussione Jan Tappenbeck

Am 17.06.2010 10:24, schrieb o...@tappenbeck.net:
 hi !

 es soll ein navi mit sprache beschafft werden - die routenführung des
 garmin gpsmap kommt nicht so gut an.

 kann einer von euch eines empfehlen was später vielleicht auch mit osm
 genutzt werden kann - am besten wäre die nutzung des gelieferten systems
 und von osm in einer installation (umschaltmöglichkeit).

 gruß Jan :-)


hi !

ich erweitere meine frage noch einmal...

es gibt ja verschiedene software für das routing auf den 
sprachgesteuerten geräten - navit etc.

hat einer von euch schon erfahrungen sammeln können um einen vergleich 
zwischen den routingergebnissen im gegensatz zu karten mit mkgmap 
gerechnet machen zu können ??? eben hat mein garmin mal wieder einen 
knoten in der wegeführung gemacht !

gruß Jan :-)


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Re: [Talk-de] Wie mappe ich eine Litfaßsäule?

2010-06-17 Per discussione M∡rtin Koppenhoefer

Jedenfalls ist es angeraten, kein amenity dafür zu nehmen, weil man so
z.B. auch Kombinationen mit Toilettentags bauen kann.

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] Verkehrszeichen Tool Update

2010-06-17 Per discussione Christian

Sebastian Hohmann schrieb:
Martin Simon schrieb:

Am 16. Juni 2010 00:15 schrieb Sebastian Hohmann m...@s-hohmann.de:

Thomas Ineichen schrieb:

Ich kenne Fahrradstrassen nicht, aber laut Internet[1] dürfen andere
Fahrzeuge dort erst fahren, wenn sie explizit erlaubt sind.

Ich habe die Tags aus dem Wiki. Durch cycleway ist doch eigentlich auch
schon angegeben dass sonst niemand drauf darf. Ob Fußgänger tatsächlich
erlaubt sind weiß ich nicht.

Fahrradstraße ist eine Verkehrsregelung, die Fahrradfahrern auf
damit ausgestatteten *Straßen* mehr Rechte einräumt und Motorfahrzeuge
erst einmal ausschließt.

Ich fände cycleroad=yes am sinnvollsten. Ich hatte bisher noch keine
Fahrradstraße zu taggen, insofern habe ich die Tags einfach aus dem Wiki
übernommen und nicht weiter drüber nachgedacht. Allerdings sollte man
eine Änderung dann auch im Wiki diskutieren/einbringen, sonst steht
überall Widersprüchliches.

Gruß

Ich denke auch, dass ein cycleroad zumindest im taggin drin sein
sollte. So wie das Thema Fahrradstraße derzeit im Wiki [1] beschrieben
ist, gefällt es mir noch nicht so.

Es wird z.B. highway=path/cycleway bicycle=designated vorgeschlagen.So
würde normale ausgewiesene Radwege taggen. Damit ist mir der Unterschied
zur Fahrradstraße nicht vorhanden. Das nur über traffic_sign zu regeln
finde ich nicht schön.
Auch die Variante highway=residential + bicycle=designated passt nicht
ganz. Das ist für mich eine Straße mit Radweg. (oder sowas)

Entsprechend bin ich für das dort angegebene Proposal: highway=cycleroad.
Das Argument, dass es sich um eine normale Straße handelt, deren
Nutzung lediglich anders festgelegt ist, kann doch durch living_street
entkräftet werden. Oft sind das auch normale Straßen, deren Nutzung
geändert ist.

Gruß
Christian

[1]
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Germany_roads_tagging#Ausgeschilderte_Fahrradstra.C3.9Fe_.28Zeichen_244.29

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Re: [Talk-de] Fahrrad-Access-Map

2010-06-17 Per discussione M∡rtin Koppenhoefer

Am 17. Juni 2010 10:13 schrieb Bernd Wurst be...@bwurst.org:
 Momentan ist also ein Trampelpfad im Wald, auf dem man (im Sommer) theoretisch
 auch mit nem Fahrrad durch kann nicht zu unterscheiden von einem asphaltierten
 Weg, der vielleicht kein blaues Schild bekommen hat aber dennoch ein prima
 Radweg ist.


ich nutze für Trampelpfade zusätzlich ein informal=yes (und ggf. eine
Breite wie width=0.3). Das geht mir footway und mit path
gleichermaßen.

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] Verkehrszeichen Tool Update

Christian chr_bra...@gmx.de wrote:

 Es wird z.B. highway=path/cycleway  bicycle=designated vorgeschlagen.So 
 würde normale ausgewiesene Radwege taggen. Damit ist mir der Unterschied 
 zur Fahrradstraße nicht vorhanden. Das nur über traffic_sign zu regeln 
 finde ich nicht schön.

Nein das ist Murks, denn dann wird ein Fahrradweg gerendert.

 Auch die Variante highway=residential + bicycle=designated passt nicht 
 ganz. Das ist für mich eine Straße mit Radweg. (oder sowas)

Neuen Tag erfinden, highway=residential beibehalten.

 Entsprechend bin ich für das dort angegebene Proposal: highway=cycleroad.
 Das Argument, dass es sich um eine normale Straße handelt, deren 
 Nutzung lediglich anders festgelegt ist, kann doch durch living_street 
 entkräftet werden.

living_street war IMo ein Unfall. Das sind in 99,9% der Falle ganz normale
residential Roads mit speziellen Verkehrsvorschriften. Auch hier wäre es IMO
besser gewesen einen speziellen Zusatztag zu erfinden.

Gruss

Sven

-- 
Microsoft ist offenbar die einzige Firma, die in der Lage ist, ein mit
Office nicht kompatibles Bürosoftwarepaket einzuführen.
(Florian Weimer in de.alt.sysadmin.recovery)
/me is gig...@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web

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Re: [Talk-de] sprachnavi-tipp

o...@tappenbeck.net o...@tappenbeck.net wrote:

 kann einer von euch eines empfehlen was später vielleicht auch mit osm 
 genutzt werden kann - am besten wäre die nutzung des gelieferten systems 
 und von osm in einer installation (umschaltmöglichkeit).

Derzeit sind AFAIK die Navigationsgeräte der Firma Garmin die einzigen
kommerziellen Navigationsgeräte auf denen überhaupt OSM-Karten verwendbar
sind.

Gruss

Sven

-- 
Why are there so many Unix-haters-handbooks and not even one
Microsoft-Windows-haters handbook?
Gurer vf ab arrq sbe n unaqobbx gb ungr Zvpebfbsg Jvaqbjf!
/me is gig...@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web

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Re: [Talk-de] Wie mappe ich eine Litfaßsäule?

2010-06-17 Per discussione Christian H. Bruhn

Guten Tag Ulf Lamping,

am Donnerstag, 17. Juni 2010 um 09:25 schrieben Sie:

 Das finde ich jetzt nicht so gut. Ich würde eigentlich schon gerne einen
 klaren Unterschied zwischen touristischen Informationen und einfacher
 Werbung haben.

 Zitat: Der Schlüssel tourism=information beschreibt verschiedenen 
 Informationsquellen für Touristen, Reisende und Besucher. 
 Information=xy ist ja als Untertag zum tourism=information gedacht 
 (oder zumindest mal so entstanden).

Ich verwende information=board auch für Informationstafeln der
Gemeinde, der Kirchengemeinde, der Freiwilligen Feuerwehr etc. Am
besten mit entsprechenden Operator oder name-Tag.

Christian



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Re: [Talk-de] University of Giessen: diploma thesis

2010-06-17 Per discussione Christian H. Bruhn

Guten Tag Andrea Hecker,

am Mittwoch, 16. Juni 2010 um 22:37 schrieben Sie:

 My name is Andrea Hecker and I am a student at the Justus-Liebig-
 University of Giessen/ Germany. I am currently writing on my diploma 

Lernt man da kein Deutsch?

Christzian


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Re: [Talk-de] Wie mappe ich eine Litfaßsäule?

2010-06-17 Per discussione bkmap

 Meine Idee wäre sowas wie:
 
 advertising=column (oder auch advertising=advertising_column)
 
 bzw.für Plakatwände
 
 advertising=board (oder auch advertising=billboard)

Hört sich gut an. Wäre dann ein neues Tag, das man auch für ähnliche
Objekte benutzen kann.
Denkbar wäre dann auch solche auffällige Werbeanlagen wie

advertising=screen
advertising=CLP
advertising=BlowUp

Mir ist auch nicht bekannt, dass es schon was passendes gäbe. Ich denke,
dass es darauf hinaus läuft, dass Du Deinen Vorschlag zur Diskussion ins
Wiki schreibst.

Gruß
Burkhard


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Re: [Talk-de] sprachnavi-tipp - ergänzung

2010-06-17 Per discussione Florian Lohoff

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 10:49:50AM +0200, Jan Tappenbeck wrote:
 hi !
 
 ich erweitere meine frage noch einmal...
 
 es gibt ja verschiedene software für das routing auf den 
 sprachgesteuerten geräten - navit etc.

Navit ist von der routenberechnung noch meilenweit von den ergebnissen
der Garmin weg - vielleicht auch nur Komfortfaktoren - Aber es reichlich
nervig das Navit keine penalty fuer einen u-turn kennt. Damit sabbelt
sich das dingen auch schonmal 5-10 Minuten zu man solle umkehren wenn
man mal anders abgebogen ist.

http://trac.navit-project.org/ticket/77

Und besser ist die Adresssuche bei Navit im vergleich zum Garmin
auch nicht - Beides ist wirklich fuer die Benutzung unbrauchbar. Mehr
ein lustiges Spielzeug.

Dazu kommt das navit leider sich auch diverse einstellungen nicht merkt
z.b. 2D sicht und Nordweisend etc ... Mal davon abgesehen das die
Nordweisend ansicht nicht hinreichend funktioniert und auch dann
noch ganz komisch den Standort Ost/West technisch verschiebt. Ich habe
da im Mai 2008 nen patch hingeschickt - ist bis heute nicht gefixed auch
nach Diskussionen ueber den Patch.

Insgesamt empfinde ich Navit als reichlich tot auch wenn es die am weitest
gediehene Navi loesung ist ... 

 hat einer von euch schon erfahrungen sammeln können um einen vergleich 
 zwischen den routingergebnissen im gegensatz zu karten mit mkgmap 
 gerechnet machen zu können ??? eben hat mein garmin mal wieder einen 
 knoten in der wegeführung gemacht !

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
Es ist ein grobes Missverständnis und eine Fehlwahrnehmung, dem Staat
im Internet Zensur- und Überwachungsabsichten zu unterstellen.
- - Bundesminister Dr. Wolfgang Schäuble -- 10. Juli in Berlin 


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Re: [Talk-de] Fahrrad-Access-Map

2010-06-17 Per discussione Thomas Ineichen

Hallo Andreas,

 Inwiefern ist die Angabe von Tempo 30 relevant für's Fahrradfahren.

Weil es sich in einer Tempo-30-Zone im Allgemeinen angenehmer fährt?

(Hier in der Schweiz kommt Tempo 30 fast ausschliesslich als Zone vor;
in  Deutschland  gibt  es hingegen auch Primaries, welche mit '30' be-
schildert sind. Das Erkennen der Zonen überlasse ich dem Betrachter.)


 Mich haben diese Kennzeichnungen eher verwirrt, weil sie die

oneway:bicycle=no

 getaggten Straßen, nach denen ich gesucht habe, überdecken.  Das
 würde ich eher weglassen.

Es wird nicht überdeckt, sondern (bisher) gar nicht gerendert. :)


Es  gibt  inzwischen  einen  Quality-Assurance-Layer,  auf dem nur die
*wirklich* Fahrrad-bezogenen Tags gerendert werden:
http://access.t-i.ch/access-map.html?zoom=17lat=47.36843lon=8.558layers=B00FTF


 Zweite Frage: Es gibt doch auch diese kleinen Schilder (etwa 15cm x 15cm),
 auf denen ein grünes Fahrrad mit einem Richtungspfeil eine beliebte
 Fahrradroute anzeigt.  Wie soll das grundsätzlich getaggt werden und
 wie könnte man dieses auf dem Access-Layer konsistent darstellen.

Es  kommt  ein  bisschen  darauf  an, ob es sich um Routen oder um ein
Netzwerk  handelt:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle

Diese Relationen rendere ich zur Zeit aber ebenfalls noch nicht.


Man  kann  die einzelnen Wege auch mit bicycle=designated auszeichnen.
Nicht-Paths werden dann auf meiner Karte grün gestrichelt gezeichnet:
http://access.t-i.ch/access-map.html?zoom=16lat=47.33979lon=8.70097layers=B00TFF


Gruss,
Thomas



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Re: [Talk-de] Fahrrad-Access-Map

2010-06-17 Per discussione Andreas Tille

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 12:01:26PM +0200, Thomas Ineichen wrote:
 Weil es sich in einer Tempo-30-Zone im Allgemeinen angenehmer fährt?
 
 (Hier in der Schweiz kommt Tempo 30 fast ausschliesslich als Zone vor;
 in  Deutschland  gibt  es hingegen auch Primaries, welche mit '30' be-
 schildert sind. Das Erkennen der Zonen überlasse ich dem Betrachter.)

OK.
 
  getaggten Straßen, nach denen ich gesucht habe, überdecken.  Das
  würde ich eher weglassen.
 
 Es wird nicht überdeckt, sondern (bisher) gar nicht gerendert. :)
 
 
 Es  gibt  inzwischen  einen  Quality-Assurance-Layer,  auf dem nur die
 *wirklich* Fahrrad-bezogenen Tags gerendert werden:
 http://access.t-i.ch/access-map.html?zoom=17lat=47.36843lon=8.558layers=B00FTF

Kann es sein, daß dieser Layer noch nicht überall gerendert ist - in
meiner Gegend (lat=51.82918lon=10.79039) sehe ich da noch nichts.
 
 Es  kommt  ein  bisschen  darauf  an, ob es sich um Routen oder um ein
 Netzwerk  handelt:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Bicycle
 
 Diese Relationen rendere ich zur Zeit aber ebenfalls noch nicht.
 
 
 Man  kann  die einzelnen Wege auch mit bicycle=designated auszeichnen.
 Nicht-Paths werden dann auf meiner Karte grün gestrichelt gezeichnet:

Sagen wir mal so: Einige dieser Wege gehören sicher zu Routen, aber
in den seltensten Fällen ist das dem Schild vor Ort (also an jeder Ecke)
anzusehen.  Ich würde also auch erstmal bicycle=designated setzten und
die Routen darauf aufbauen.  Vor Ort sieht man erstmal das Schild und
möchte dieses sinnvoll unterbringen ...

Viele Grüße

Andreas. 

-- 
http://fam-tille.de

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Re: [Talk-de] Verkehrszeichen Tool Update

2010-06-17 Per discussione Martin Simon

Am 17. Juni 2010 11:02 schrieb Sven Geggus li...@fuchsschwanzdomain.de:

 living_street war IMo ein Unfall. Das sind in 99,9% der Falle ganz normale
 residential Roads mit speziellen Verkehrsvorschriften. Auch hier wäre es IMO
 besser gewesen einen speziellen Zusatztag zu erfinden.

+1

Genau wie bei Fußgängerbereiche (highway=pedestrian) können sich
verkehrsberuhigte Bereiche auch auf Straßen und Wege ausdehnen, die
wir normalerweise mit service, footway, path etc taggen würden.
Naja, sie können nicht nur, sie tun es regelmäßig, weil man bestrebt
ist, nicht nur einzelne Straßen, sondern Zonen damit zu kennzeichnen.

Daher wäre es m.E. besser gewesen, diese Verkehrsregelungen als
Zusatztags zu realisieren, die auf alle Wege angewendet werden können.

Da fällt mir ein: hat jemand schon ein tag, das aussagt, daß Fahrbahn
und Gehwege Ebenengleich angelegt oder sogar als gemeinsame
Verkehrsfläche realisiert sind? (Stichwort shared space, aber auch
die bauliche Praxis bei vielen Neubau-Wohngebieten der letzten 2-3
Jahrzehnte)

Gruß,

Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] sprachnavi-tipp - ergänzung

2010-06-17 Per discussione Lars Lingner

Am 17.06.2010 11:40, schrieb Florian Lohoff:
[...]
 
 Insgesamt empfinde ich Navit als reichlich tot auch wenn es die am weitest
 gediehene Navi loesung ist ... 
 

Letzte Woche auf dem Linuxtag habe ich einen anderen Eindruck gewonnen.
Ich selber nutze Navit bisher nicht, aber das forgeführte Routing, die
Unterstützung für mehrere Platformen und auch die Funktionsvielfalt
haben mich beeindruckt.

Einen Vergleich mit propiretären Tools kenne ich nicht.

Lars

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Re: [Talk-de] Verkehrszeichen Tool Update

2010-06-17 Per discussione Detlev Zundel

Hallo,

 Jochen Topf schrieb:
 Wenn man zweimal das gleiche Schild anklickt, ist es 2mal in der Auswahl.
 Das könntest Du noch abfangen.
 

 Eigentlich hatte ich das schon, aber offenbar ist das durch eine 
 Änderung wieder ausgehebelt worden.

Wäre es nicht sinnvoll, das Anclicken als Toggle-Funktion zu
interpretieren?  Sprich das Schild wieder aus der Auswahl löschen, wenn
es schon drin ist?  Auf diese Weise hätte man einen sehr bequemen
Browser ohne ständiges Springen mit der Maus.

Cheers
  Detlev

-- 
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority it is
time to pause and reflect.
-- Mark Twain


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Re: [Talk-de] Fahrrad-Access-Map

2010-06-17 Per discussione Martin Simon

Am 17. Juni 2010 10:13 schrieb Bernd Wurst be...@bwurst.org:
 Am Mittwoch 16 Juni 2010, 21:45:55 schrieb Martin Simon:
 Das gute ist eigentlich, daß die Leute, die path so verwenden (für
 neutrale Pfade in Wald und Flur) eigentlich nichts falsch machen, da
 diese Verwendung auch von path abgedeckt ist.

 Leider gibt es fuer Untergruende so derartig viele verschiedene denkbare Werte
 und so wenig verbreiteten Konsens, dass man momentan nicht daran denken kann,
 diese Werte zu nutzen.

Lustigerweise habe ich gerade in den letzten Tagen angefangen,
surface=* verstärkt zu taggen und auch meine Garmin-Karte darauf
auszurichten.

Wenn man sich in Tagwatch die am häufigsten benutzten Werte ansieht,
findet man eigentlich für jeden Fall etwas sinnvolles:

Asphalt, Beton, (System-)Pflaster, Kopfsteinpflaster, wassergebundene
Deckschicht (compacted) und blanker Boden sind hier bei mir die
wichtigsten Arten. (paved und unpaved versuche ich möglichst zu
konkretisieren, wenn ich es bemerke)

Das ganze hab ich dann einfach mal grob in 2 Gruppen gesiebt: alles
unterhalb von compacted und zusätzlich Kopfsteinpflaster sehe ich
erstmal als unbefestigt an (für cycleway und bicycle=designated nehme
ich auch eine befestigte Oberfläche an) und verpasse ihm das
Garmin-flag für unbefestigt (ebenso wie Treppen mit
Fahrradschienen).

Wenn ich jetzt keine Lust auf Kopfsteinpflaster, schlechten Untergrund
oder Treppen-hochschieben habe (die Kölner Südbrücke ist ein Beispiel
für eine Stelle, wo sich das schieben massiv lohnen kann) oder es
draußen naß ist, lege ich im Garmin einen Schalter um und werde nur
auf Wegen und Straßen geführt, die dieses flag nicht haben. :-)

So muß ich mir nicht den Kopf darüber zerbrechen, ob ein Mapper mit
highway=cycleway aussagen wollte, daß es ein echter Radweg ist, daß
man dort von der Oberfläche her gut Rad fahren kann oder daß dort
viele Radfahrer fahren, weil andere Alternativen noch schlechter
sind.

Soweit ich es bis jetzt ausprobiert habe, funktioniert das ganze
wunderbar... :-)

 Momentan ist also ein Trampelpfad im Wald, auf dem man (im Sommer) theoretisch
 auch mit nem Fahrrad durch kann nicht zu unterscheiden von einem asphaltierten
 Weg, der vielleicht kein blaues Schild bekommen hat aber dennoch ein prima
 Radweg ist.

surface=ground, surface=asphalt spiegelt genau das wider, ohne große
Interpretationsschwierigkeiten.

Wenn ich mich recht erinnere nutzt du auch ein Garmin mit
Kartendarstellung - probier's doch mal aus, das flag setzt man im
style-file lines mit

highway=bla  surface=blubb { set mkgmap:unpaved=1 } [linientyp zoomlevel]

und das vermeiden solcher Wege findest du unter Routingeinstellungen
- Straßennavi. Einstellgn.

Da gibts auch noch was für Mautstraße (nehme ich für Fähren und
andere Kostenpflichtigen Kram) und Fahrgemeinschaftsspuren (benutze
ich noch nicht, weiß nicht ob mkgmap das schon unterstützt)

 Als Nutzer der Daten interessiert mich doch primaer, wo ich mit z.B. Fahrrad
 mit Anhaenger fahren kann. Bisher habe ich da beim Mappen die (oft nicht
 vorhandenen) Schilder nur sekundaer genutzt und primaer auf die Nutzbarkeit
 (rechtlich und physisch) geschaut und das so getagged (Fahrradweg ist das wo
 man mit dem Fahrrad angenehm fahren kann. Wer gerne Dreckpisten mit dem
 Fahrrad faehrt faehrt auch auf Fusswegen).

Naja, das sehe (und tagge) ich anders - meiner Meinung nach gehört die
Aussage gut zum Radfahren nicht in den highway-tag, sie sollte sich
eher im Oberflächenmaterial, der Breite etc. wieder finden, damit
verschiedene Router aus diesen Eigenschaften dann das heraus holen
können, was sie interessiert.

 Jetzt sehe ich mit grossem Schrecken, dass neue Wege in Wald und Flur
 irgendwie grundsaetzlich als path getagged sind, in der Karte ist alles nur
 noch schwarz gestrichelt und ich weiss gar nicht mehr wo man was darf. Hier
 hab ich noch den Lokal-Bonus dass ich mir sicher bin dass ich alle guten
 Fahrradstrecken schon vor langem selbst gemapped habe. Aber fuer fremde ist
 das eine wesentlich schlechter nutzbare Karte.

Das würde ich als Unzulänglichkeit des Renderers einstufen...

Ich dachte auch, eben herausgelesen zu haben, daß du die Eignung als
Kriterium für path vs. footway vs. cycleway heranziehst und nicht den
rechtlichen Status?

 Gruss, Bernd, der heute aus eigener Dummheit nur ein US-Tastaturlayout zur
 Verfuegung hat... :(

Mein Beileid - setdem ich Laptop-User bin traue ich mich grundsätzlich
nicht mehr, vor Wut auf die Tastatur zu schlagen... ;-)

-Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] Fahrrad-Access-Map

2010-06-17 Per discussione Guenther Meyer

Am Donnerstag 17 Juni 2010, 13:09:53 schrieb Martin Simon:
  Als Nutzer der Daten interessiert mich doch primaer, wo ich mit z.B.
  Fahrrad mit Anhaenger fahren kann. Bisher habe ich da beim Mappen die
  (oft nicht vorhandenen) Schilder nur sekundaer genutzt und primaer auf
  die Nutzbarkeit (rechtlich und physisch) geschaut und das so getagged
  (Fahrradweg ist das wo man mit dem Fahrrad angenehm fahren kann. Wer
  gerne Dreckpisten mit dem Fahrrad faehrt faehrt auch auf Fusswegen).
 
 Naja, das sehe (und tagge) ich anders - meiner Meinung nach gehört die
 Aussage gut zum Radfahren nicht in den highway-tag, sie sollte sich
 eher im Oberflächenmaterial, der Breite etc. wieder finden, damit
 verschiedene Router aus diesen Eigenschaften dann das heraus holen
 können, was sie interessiert.

+1


  Jetzt sehe ich mit grossem Schrecken, dass neue Wege in Wald und Flur
  irgendwie grundsaetzlich als path getagged sind, in der Karte ist alles
  nur noch schwarz gestrichelt und ich weiss gar nicht mehr wo man was
  darf. Hier hab ich noch den Lokal-Bonus dass ich mir sicher bin dass ich
  alle guten Fahrradstrecken schon vor langem selbst gemapped habe. Aber
  fuer fremde ist das eine wesentlich schlechter nutzbare Karte.
 
 Das würde ich als Unzulänglichkeit des Renderers einstufen...


+1


  Gruss, Bernd, der heute aus eigener Dummheit nur ein US-Tastaturlayout
  zur Verfuegung hat... :(
 
 Mein Beileid - setdem ich Laptop-User bin traue ich mich grundsätzlich
 nicht mehr, vor Wut auf die Tastatur zu schlagen... ;-)
 
also ich benutze das US-Layout standardmaessig, ist viel besser zum coden... 
;-)



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Re: [Talk-de] Verkehrszeichen Tool Update

2010-06-17 Per discussione Sebastian Hohmann

Detlev Zundel schrieb:
 Hallo,
 
 Jochen Topf schrieb:
 Wenn man zweimal das gleiche Schild anklickt, ist es 2mal in der Auswahl.
 Das könntest Du noch abfangen.

 Eigentlich hatte ich das schon, aber offenbar ist das durch eine 
 Änderung wieder ausgehebelt worden.
 
 Wäre es nicht sinnvoll, das Anclicken als Toggle-Funktion zu
 interpretieren?  Sprich das Schild wieder aus der Auswahl löschen, wenn
 es schon drin ist?  Auf diese Weise hätte man einen sehr bequemen
 Browser ohne ständiges Springen mit der Maus.
 

Klar, warum nicht.

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Re: [Talk-de] University of Giessen: diploma thesis

2010-06-17 Per discussione Alexander Matheisen

Ist man irgendwie unnormal, wenn man nicht versteht, was das eigentlich
mit OSM zu tun haben soll?


Alex


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Re: [Talk-de] University of Giessen: diploma thesis

2010-06-17 Per discussione Felix Hartmann



On 17.06.2010 14:15, Alexander Matheisen wrote:
 Ist man irgendwie unnormal, wenn man nicht versteht, was das eigentlich
 mit OSM zu tun haben soll?


 Alex

Es scheint Personen zu geben, die nicht wissen was Spam ist, und meinen 
zu schreiben ist kein Spam würde ausreichen damit es kein Spam ist. 
Die Intelligenz der Threaderstellerin scheint mir einfach der eines 3-4 
jährigen Kindes zu entsprechen.

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Re: [Talk-de] University of Giessen: diploma thesis

2010-06-17 Per discussione Alexander Matheisen

Am Donnerstag, den 17.06.2010, 14:31 +0200 schrieb Felix Hartmann:
 
 On 17.06.2010 14:15, Alexander Matheisen wrote:
  Ist man irgendwie unnormal, wenn man nicht versteht, was das eigentlich
  mit OSM zu tun haben soll?
 
 
  Alex
 
 Es scheint Personen zu geben, die nicht wissen was Spam ist, und meinen 
 zu schreiben ist kein Spam würde ausreichen damit es kein Spam ist. 
 Die Intelligenz der Threaderstellerin scheint mir einfach der eines 3-4 
 jährigen Kindes zu entsprechen.

Irgendwie wirkte es mir zu logisch für Spam, bis auf die Tatsache das
die Threadstellerin trotz Studium in Deutschland kein Deutsch kann...

Mit irgendeiner OSM-Umfrage könnte sie hier wahrscheinlich mehr Leute
begeistern.

Naja, einfach ignorieren.


Alex


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Re: [Talk-de] Fahrrad-Access-Map

2010-06-17 Per discussione bkmap

Hallo,

nur gut, dass es immer wieder mal ein Thema gibt, bei dem man eine
highway=cycleway oder higway=path - Diskussion lostreten kann.

Es gab Abstimmungen und es gibt Wiki-Seiten dazu. Aber trotzdem hier mal
meine Meinung:

 Momentan ist also ein Trampelpfad im Wald, auf dem man (im Sommer) 
 theoretisch 
 auch mit nem Fahrrad durch kann nicht zu unterscheiden von einem 
 asphaltierten 
 Weg, der vielleicht kein blaues Schild bekommen hat aber dennoch ein prima 
 Radweg ist.
Wenn kein blaues Schild steht ist es kein Radweg, sondern ein Weg, auf
dem man vieleicht prima Rad fahren kann.
 
 Als Nutzer der Daten interessiert mich doch primaer, wo ich mit z.B. Fahrrad 
 mit Anhaenger fahren kann. 
Dazu solltest Du width=*, smoothness=*, surface=* und bicycle=yes benutzen.
 Bisher habe ich da beim Mappen die (oft nicht 
 vorhandenen) Schilder nur sekundaer genutzt und primaer auf die Nutzbarkeit 
 (rechtlich und physisch) geschaut und das so getagged (Fahrradweg ist das wo 
 man mit dem Fahrrad angenehm fahren kann. 
Auf den Wirtschaftswegen der Flugplätze kann man auch angenehm mit dem
Rad fahren. Keiner würde auf die Idee kommen, die mit highway=cycleway
zu kennzeichnen. Dort ist Rad fahren verboten. Ich werde mich hüten,
einen unbefestigten Weg im Wald mit highway=cycleway zu mappen, weil das
Rad fahren dort rechtlich gesehen nicht erlaubt ist. ( Genaugenommen ist
das eine Aufforderung zur unerlaubten Handlung, wenn ich solche pfade
trotzdem so kennzeichne :-) Wenn ein Waldweg breiter ist, dann ist es
highway=track.
Dann gibt es auch eine Wiki zu highway=cycleway. Das ist kein Proposed
Eintrag sondern einer, nach dem man sich richten sollte:
international üblich: Gehe wie folgt vor, um einen Radweg zu erstellen:
Zeichne den Weg und markiere ihn mit dem Tag highway=cycleway. Dies
bedeutet, dass der Weg für Radfahrer vorgesehen ( B E S C H I L D E R T
) ist.
Es steht ausdrücklich drin, dass die beschriebene Situation in
Deutschland eine Art Wildwuchs ist.

highway=footway ist im Wald wohl auch nicht angemessen, solange er nicht
ausgeschildert ist. Siehe Wiki: Hinweis: Für Wege, die keine
ausgewiesenen Fußwege sind, sollte der allgemeinere Tag highway=path
zusammen mit passenden access=*-Tags verwendet werden. Nicht alle Wege,
die zu Fuß passierbar sind, sind automatisch als highway=footway zu taggen!
highway=path wurde auch nicht aus Langerweile erfunden, sondern um
derartige Situationen überhaupt darstellen zu können.

 Wer gerne Dreckpisten mit dem 
 Fahrrad faehrt faehrt auch auf Fusswegen). 
 Jetzt sehe ich mit grossem Schrecken, dass neue Wege in Wald und Flur 
 irgendwie grundsaetzlich als path getagged sind, in der Karte ist alles nur 
Und ich sehe mit Schrecken, dass es in Wald und Flur nur so von Fußwegen
und Radwegen wimmelt, wo sie nicht hingehören.
 noch schwarz gestrichelt und ich weiss gar nicht mehr wo man was darf. Hier 
 hab ich noch den Lokal-Bonus dass ich mir sicher bin dass ich alle guten 
 Fahrradstrecken schon vor langem selbst gemapped habe. Aber fuer fremde ist 
 das eine wesentlich schlechter nutzbare Karte.

An die Programmierer der Routingprogramme:
Gibt es eigentlich irgendwo eine Übersicht, wie welche Tags derzeit von
den Routingprogrammen ausgewertet werden?

Gruß
Burkhard



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Re: [Talk-de] Wie mappe ich eine Litfaßsäule?

2010-06-17 Per discussione rotb

  Meine Idee wäre sowas wie:
  
  advertising=column (oder auch advertising=advertising_column)

In Düsseldorf schon vielfach so gemapt, da insbesondere interessant wegen der 
Kunst obendrauf. Passt auch zu 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advertising_column. Allerdings haben die 
Düsseldorfer amenity=advertising dazu gepackt:

advertising = column
amenity = advertising
artist = Christoph Pöggeler
artwork:ref = Düsseldorfer Säulenheilige
artwork_type = sculpture
name = Säulenheilige - Fotograf
tourism = artwork

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/749790522/history

Ich würde aus dem Bauch sagen: advertising=column reicht auch ohne amenity.
-- 
GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl.  
Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl

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Re: [Talk-de] University of Giessen: diploma thesis

Alexander Matheisen alexandermathei...@ish.de wrote:

 Irgendwie wirkte es mir zu logisch für Spam

Spam zeichnet sich nicht durch logisch oder unlogisch aus.
Spam ist für mich eine umgangssprachliche Bezeichnung für UBE und genau
darum handelt es sich offensichtlich:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsolicited_Bulk_E-Mail

Gruss

Sven

-- 
Den Rechtsstaat macht aus, dass Unschuldige wieder frei kommen
(Wolfgang Schäuble)

/me is gig...@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web

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Re: [Talk-de] sprachnavi-tipp - ergänzung