Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Talk-fr mailing list bounce policy
On Sun, 29 Dec 2019, Tom Hughes wrote: > This is a matter for the talk-fr admin - they need to change the > list settings (the from_is_list setting) to munge the from addresses > of senders with a hard DMARC policy or the resulting bounces caused > by the list forwarding to gmail and other sites that enforce DMARC > policies will cause those recipients to be unsubscribed. Who is "the talk-fr admin"? How can I contact him? The page below says the talk-fr list is managed by talk-fr-owner at openstreetmap.org so I sent an email to that address but I did not hear back and I'm still regularly getting kicked out (last time was last thursday). https://lists.openstreetmap.org/admin/talk-fr The "Admins" column is empty for the "talk-fr" line on the page below: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailing_lists And the page below provides no way to contact administrator of specific lists: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/admin The only address it provides is mail...@openstreetmap.org but as far as I can tell that's not who I should contact. So how can I get this to move forward? -- Francois Gouget http://fgouget.free.fr/ E-Voting: Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything. ___________ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Talk-fr mailing list bounce policy
Any news on this?
My subscription got deactivated again yesterday evening:
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2019 23:57:15
On Sat, 21 Dec 2019, Francois Gouget wrote:
>
> Regularly users on the talk-fr mailing list get kicked off. It's my
> third time this month! Whenever it happens it looks like multiple users
> across multiple ISPs get kicked off at the same time.
>
> The notification message mentions "excessive bounces" without specifying
> how many bounces occurred or providing any information that would help
> diagnose the reason for the bounces. Most users rely on their ISP email
> servers and thus cannot look at the server logs either.
>
> Here's the relevant extract of this message (without the link and
> password):
>
>
> Votre abonnement à la liste Talk-fr a été désactivé suite à due to
> excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated
> 21-Dec-2019. Vous ne recevrez plus de messages en provenance de cette
> liste tant que vous n'aurez pas ré-activé votre abonnement. Vous
> recevrez encore 3 rappels comme celui-ci avant que votre abonnement ne
> soit supprimé.
>
> Pour ré-activer votre abonnement, vous pouvez répondre simplement à ce
> message (en laissant la ligne Subject: --Objet-- du message intact) ou
> vous rendre à la page de confirmation à l'adresse :
>
> ---
>
>
> Debian also has to deal with bounces on their mailing lists and there
> are two things that they do which improve the situation greatly:
>
> 1. The notification email contains a link to the last bounce
>including all the email headers (see attachment).
>- This helps get a sense of why the bounce occurred.
>- Most of the time it's a spam false positive. Note that most users
> cannot prevent their ISPs from doing at least some level of spam
> filtering.
>- Users can however report false positives to their ISPs, but only if
> they can provide the full email headers of the message that
> bounced. The link in the notification message provides that
> information and thus there is at least a chance that ISPs can
> improve.
>- The link remains valid for about a week. This way the Debian
> servers don't end with a glut of bounced emails.
>
> 2. A user gets kicked out only if more than 80% of the emails got
>bounced over a period of 7 days. Notification emails get sent at a
>much lower threshold (I presume weekly in the presence of bounces).
>This still lets Debian purge old accounts from their mailing lists
>without randomly kicking users out.
>
>
> So it would be great if OSM could implement a similar policy on Talk-fr
> (and the other mailing lists at your discretion).
>
>
>
--
Francois Gouget http://fgouget.free.fr/
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes.
That way, if he gets angry, he'll be a mile away - and barefoot.___
Talk-fr mailing list
Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
[OSM-talk-fr] Talk-fr mailing list bounce policy
Regularly users on the talk-fr mailing list get kicked off. It's my third time this month! Whenever it happens it looks like multiple users across multiple ISPs get kicked off at the same time. The notification message mentions "excessive bounces" without specifying how many bounces occurred or providing any information that would help diagnose the reason for the bounces. Most users rely on their ISP email servers and thus cannot look at the server logs either. Here's the relevant extract of this message (without the link and password): Votre abonnement à la liste Talk-fr a été désactivé suite à due to excessive bounces The last bounce received from you was dated 21-Dec-2019. Vous ne recevrez plus de messages en provenance de cette liste tant que vous n'aurez pas ré-activé votre abonnement. Vous recevrez encore 3 rappels comme celui-ci avant que votre abonnement ne soit supprimé. Pour ré-activer votre abonnement, vous pouvez répondre simplement à ce message (en laissant la ligne Subject: --Objet-- du message intact) ou vous rendre à la page de confirmation à l'adresse : --- Debian also has to deal with bounces on their mailing lists and there are two things that they do which improve the situation greatly: 1. The notification email contains a link to the last bounce including all the email headers (see attachment). - This helps get a sense of why the bounce occurred. - Most of the time it's a spam false positive. Note that most users cannot prevent their ISPs from doing at least some level of spam filtering. - Users can however report false positives to their ISPs, but only if they can provide the full email headers of the message that bounced. The link in the notification message provides that information and thus there is at least a chance that ISPs can improve. - The link remains valid for about a week. This way the Debian servers don't end with a glut of bounced emails. 2. A user gets kicked out only if more than 80% of the emails got bounced over a period of 7 days. Notification emails get sent at a much lower threshold (I presume weekly in the presence of bounces). This still lets Debian purge old accounts from their mailing lists without randomly kicking users out. So it would be great if OSM could implement a similar policy on Talk-fr (and the other mailing lists at your discretion). -- Francois Gouget http://fgouget.free.fr/ Hiroshima '45 - Czernobyl '86 - Windows '95Dear subscriber, We've encountered some problems while sending listmail to your emailaddress fgou...@free.fr. In the last seven days we've seen bounces for the following list: * debian-devel 4 bounces out of 100 mails in 7 days (4%, kick-score is 80%) (https://lists.debian.org/bounces/MmmPJ+ZGdBf5lA6SgIyEGA) (The link above points to a copy of the latest bounce and will be valid for seven days.) If the bounce-rate passes the kick-score, our bounce-detection will forcibly remove your subscription. Bounces happen from time to time when spam slips through our filters but are rejected by your mail provider. If you are your own mail provider and use 'Before-Queue Content filtering', you should whitelist bendel.debian.org from Content filtering. However: You can safely ignore this message (and you will not be unsubscribed :-) ) if your bounce rate remains low. For more information see https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/ListMaster/FAQ You are welcome to contact listmas...@lists.debian.org if you think this message was sent in error. Sincerely, The Listmaster Team -- http://lists.debian.org ___ Talk-fr mailing list Talk-fr@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
[Talk-de] Talk-de mailing list
Bitte löschen Sie mich aus der Mailing-Liste Dankeschön! ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [OSM-talk] New mailing list about machine learning and OSM
On Thursday 27 June 2019, Felix Delattre via talk wrote: > > > > No problem with creating a new thematic mailing list here but the > > above is somewhat insulting to those who have in the past discussed > > bot mapping in OSM on a serious level. > > I don't think that ML = bot mapping. At least this is not what I > would like to use ML techniques for. And I also don't think this is > in any close to the spirit of OSM. But it is likely the most widespread application in OSM so far and also probably the most widely discussed use case. > For me "automated statistics" for most cases seems to be a good way > to refer to what others call nowadays AI. Because it describes closer > to what is happening there. I'm really not a big fan of hyped > buzzwords. An Artificial Intelligence - which deserves the term - in > my opinion has not been achieved at all. All these terms contain a subjective high level characterization via analogy to other techniques or processes. To me the term 'neural network' would seem the most neutral of the frequently used ones. You could take this a step further by speaking of 'self-adjusting general purpose algorithms'. But machine learning for the name of the mailing list is fine. In OSM we know to distinguish between a label (like a tag) and its meaning. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New mailing list about machine learning and OSM
Hi Christoph, On 6/27/19 12:28 PM, Christoph Hormann wrote: > On Thursday 27 June 2019, Felix Delattre via talk wrote: >> Until this moment the conversation has been pretty much polemic from >> people either hyping or hating these new techniques of programming >> with automated statistics. > No problem with creating a new thematic mailing list here but the above > is somewhat insulting to those who have in the past discussed bot > mapping in OSM on a serious level. I don't think that ML = bot mapping. At least this is not what I would like to use ML techniques for. And I also don't think this is in any close to the spirit of OSM. Please let me clarify, that I definitively don't want to insult anybody! This is a respectful and humble request to bring us together in an open and argumentative conversation. > Could you by the way explain the term "automated statistics" - i had not > heard this before and a quick search returns a lot of uses of this term > in the context of database systems, which i however have the impression > is not what you are talking about. Most terms in this field are > politically connotated - "artificial intelligence" implying a > similarity to human intelligence, "machine learning" implying a > similarity to human learning processes. For me "automated statistics" for most cases seems to be a good way to refer to what others call nowadays AI. Because it describes closer to what is happening there. I'm really not a big fan of hyped buzzwords. An Artificial Intelligence - which deserves the term - in my opinion has not been achieved at all. I'm looking forward to interesting conversations. Best, Felix ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New mailing list about machine learning and OSM
On Thursday 27 June 2019, Felix Delattre via talk wrote: > > Until this moment the conversation has been pretty much polemic from > people either hyping or hating these new techniques of programming > with automated statistics. No problem with creating a new thematic mailing list here but the above is somewhat insulting to those who have in the past discussed bot mapping in OSM on a serious level. The impression i have is that there are a few people discussing the matter on a principal level (usually from a sociological, epistemological, ethical or generally philosophical standpoint) and practical users and developers of such techniques - and almost zero in depth communication between these domains. Could you by the way explain the term "automated statistics" - i had not heard this before and a quick search returns a lot of uses of this term in the context of database systems, which i however have the impression is not what you are talking about. Most terms in this field are politically connotated - "artificial intelligence" implying a similarity to human intelligence, "machine learning" implying a similarity to human learning processes. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___________ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] New mailing list about machine learning and OSM
Hello everybody, Neural network based deep learning methods for feature extraction using computer vision are giving concrete results and these are also more and more getting used in the context of maps and OpenStreetMap. Until this moment the conversation has been pretty much polemic from people either hyping or hating these new techniques of programming with automated statistics. My guess: as OSM we will not be able to completely reject these new developments, and personally, I'm convinced it will also not fundamentally change how OSM works. There are many aspects that we are missing to address in an open, concise and argumentative way. Questions like: Where is the red line of applying machine learning? What are beneficial applications of machine learning for OSM? What ethical implications are having these steps? And for sure, there are open questions on licensing in the context of machine learning. Furthermore, I think it is good to have a place to have technical discussions on how to implement certain tools and talk about engineering and technical details. So far, most conversation has happened in private blog posts, and separated/closed groups. Our communication bubbles are growing, which is not good for OSM, and I would like to see a less segregated and constructive conversation to develop together the OSM way of using machine learning. Therefore I want to invite everybody interested to join this new mailing list, where we can share opinions, insights, experiences and concerns. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/machine-learning Thanks, Felix ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-africa] 2019 - More use of the Talk-Africa mailing list
Hello David, Happy New Year, IMHO a lot of us in Africa prefer other *social media* platforms to emails which shouldn't be. Best, - Enock Le ven. 4 janv. 2019 à 09:22, David Luswata a écrit : > Hi all, > > 2018 was full of so much we are all doing across Africa. 2019 promises > even more for us. There has not been much use of the talk-africa mailing > list in the past (even with the many advantages this provides). I wanted to > gather some thoughts on: > >- Why the talk-africa (a continental) mailing list is not so active? >- What can be done to leverage this mailing list? > > Best, > David. > -- > *Mapping every corner of Africa | Mapping our World | @lusdavo* > > ___________ > Talk-africa mailing list > Talk-africa@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-africa > _______ Talk-africa mailing list Talk-africa@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-africa
[Talk-africa] 2019 - More use of the Talk-Africa mailing list
Hi all, 2018 was full of so much we are all doing across Africa. 2019 promises even more for us. There has not been much use of the talk-africa mailing list in the past (even with the many advantages this provides). I wanted to gather some thoughts on: - Why the talk-africa (a continental) mailing list is not so active? - What can be done to leverage this mailing list? Best, David. -- *Mapping every corner of Africa | Mapping our World | @lusdavo* ___ Talk-africa mailing list Talk-africa@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-africa
[OSM-talk-be] Mailing list HOT FR
Bonjour, hallo! Je me permets de vous informer d'une nouvelle mailing liste dans la monde d'OpenStreetMap. La mailing liste HOT http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Teamest la liste qui permet d'échanger sur le thème d'OSM dans le cadre de l'humanitaire et du développement. La langue utilisée pour la liste général est l'anglais, ce qui limite la participation des francophones. Jusqu'à présent, pour informer les francophones sur ces thématiques et les projets en cours, des emails informatifs étaient parfois envoyés à un ensemble de listes talk francophones, ce qui n'est pas idéal dans la mesure où le même message est alors dupliqué dans chacun des historiques. Pour y remédier, une liste OSM hot-francophone vient d'être créée pour permettre aux contributeurs OSM francophones, quelle que soit leur nationalité, de pouvoir échanger en français sur l'humanitaire et le développement. Comme pour les listes talk-pays ou dev-quelquechose, elle ne vise pas à concurrencer la liste principale, mais à permettre les échanges au sein d'une communauté spécifique, et aura un dialogue continu avec la liste anglophone existante. Les hispanophones semblent intéressés pour disposer également d'une telle liste. Pour vous inscrire, c'est par ici : https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot-francophone Bonne soirée, Jorieke ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
[Talk-GB] Introducing talk-scotland mailing list.
After the topic has come up several times I'm pleased to announce the creation of the talk-scotland mailing list. We have a lot going on, and current topics seem to be around planning of events such as the upcoming mapping parties general chat around various specific local bits Anyway, come and join us at: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-scotland Cheers Chris PS: It was considered if we should be talk-gb-scotland, the dropping of the gb is future proofing and is not a statement for or against any possible future changes to Scotland's admin levels. -- e: m...@chrisfleming.org m: 07980 214061 w: http://chrisfleming.org/ t: @chrisfl ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
Hi, after all the discussion, the list has been created and I need a break from discussions about new tags:) ### Outdoor sports, wilderness and natural features mapping. Everything from scuba diving to paragliding, from undersea volcanoes to Mount Everest, related software and talk. Main language is English, all languages are welcome. ### Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
ricoz@gmail.com (Richard Z.), 2014.03.07 (Fri) 12:29 (CET): after all the discussion, the list has been created and I need a break from discussions about new tags:) I kept lurking since you did such a good job. Thanks! My interest is in mountaineering... read you soon. Bye, Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
In the case of climatic zones and vegetation zones you could overlay / mash the osm data with an external dataset. Nobody will draw a map of climatic zones in a 1:500 scale, it doesn't make sense, but it is a scale where OSM does operate. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
On Thu, Mar 06, 2014 at 10:54:35AM +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: In the case of climatic zones and vegetation zones you could overlay / mash the osm data with an external dataset. Nobody will draw a map of climatic zones in a 1:500 scale, it doesn't make sense, but it is a scale where OSM does operate. It can make sense to draw them at high zoom levels. If I am hiking in dense fog, rain in a swamp around Mt. Waialeale I have a serious interest to know that a radically different climatic zone is 400 meters away. The borders of the zones may be as sharp as sharp ridge. Does it make sense to have this data in OSM database? I do not know the answer, depends on several aspects: * is the data stable? - *YES* * how good is the data that we could get? - remains to be seen * are there technical difficulties representing it in OSM? - no idea * is it useful to have? - *YES* Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
Hi, I want to propose a new mailing list. Currently we have serious gaps in modeling vegetation zones, climatic zones, geology, oceanography and most other natural phenomena. Also a mailing list for outdoor enthusiasts and outdoor sports does not seem to exist. So for the beginning I would propose just one ml to cover those topics and maybe split it up later when there is demand to do so. I have emailed mich...@osmfoundation.org (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailing_list#Requests_for_New_Lists) but so far not got any response. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
How is this different from other tagging discussions? - Serge On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 6:57 AM, Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I want to propose a new mailing list. Currently we have serious gaps in modeling vegetation zones, climatic zones, geology, oceanography and most other natural phenomena. Also a mailing list for outdoor enthusiasts and outdoor sports does not seem to exist. So for the beginning I would propose just one ml to cover those topics and maybe split it up later when there is demand to do so. I have emailed mich...@osmfoundation.org (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailing_list#Requests_for_New_Lists) but so far not got any response. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
On Wednesday 05 March 2014, Richard Z. wrote: Hi, I want to propose a new mailing list. Currently we have serious gaps in modeling vegetation zones, climatic zones, geology, oceanography and most other natural phenomena. Without wanting to discourage this in general - these are important subjects - there are currently no thematic mapping related lists at all so it seems somewhat odd to separate specifically these subjects. In general most discussion on such subjects is currently in tagging - which is of course somewhat questionable because not all mapping related matters are about tags. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
Richard Z. wrote: Hi, I want to propose a new mailing list. Currently we have serious gaps in modeling vegetation zones, climatic zones, geology, oceanography and most other natural phenomena. Also a mailing list for outdoor enthusiasts and outdoor sports does not seem to exist. The tagging mailing list was created because the volume of esoteric tag discussion got too much for the main talk list. Maybe you need to create lots of geology or outdoor sports discussion first :) Cheers, Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
2014-03-05 13:30 GMT+01:00 Christoph Hormann chris_horm...@gmx.de: ..there are currently no thematic mapping related lists at all so it seems somewhat odd to separate specifically these subjects. There is one, talk-transit.http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit Janko ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 12:44:39PM +, SomeoneElse wrote: I want to propose a new mailing list. Currently we have serious gaps in modeling vegetation zones, climatic zones, geology, oceanography and most other natural phenomena. Also a mailing list for outdoor enthusiasts and outdoor sports does not seem to exist. The tagging mailing list was created because the volume of esoteric tag discussion got too much for the main talk list. Maybe you need to create lots of geology or outdoor sports discussion first :) the issue is that modeling geology, vegetation and similar aspects needs considerable special knowledge. We might be lucky but we can not expect that too many people with such special knowledge will listen on tagging or talk. Among outdoor oriented people it should be easier to find such specialised knowledge. As an example, we are having repeated discussions how to tag forrest but did not even start thinking about a generic concept how to map vegetation such as: climatic zones vegetation zones soil biology vegetation layers http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_lf_k0700_0167e.pdf http://www.srl.caltech.edu/personnel/krubal/rainforest/Edit560s6/www/whlayers.html Without a similar framework our vegetation mapping will remain a patchwork. Another example.. we are currently discussing hot springs but I do not have enough knowledge in balneology or hydrogeology to be confident about defining water characteristics. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
IMO that should be amalgamated back into the general lists. Occasionally tagging procedures get changed after brief discussions between very small select groups metaphorically huddled together in the corner of a room, that turn out to be non beneficial to OSM. It's a similar reason why I believe IRC isn't helpful. Dave F. On 05/03/2014 13:01, Janko Mihelic' wrote: 2014-03-05 13:30 GMT+01:00 Christoph Hormann chris_horm...@gmx.de mailto:chris_horm...@gmx.de: ..there are currently no thematic mapping related lists at all so it seems somewhat odd to separate specifically these subjects. There is one, talk-transit. http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
On 05/03/2014 13:42, Richard Z. wrote: climatic zones vegetation zones soil biology vegetation layers Are any of these things verifiable? Are they relatively static or do they change with the weather/season/year-to-year? The main OSM database only stores relatively permanent features. That's not to say that this information isn't useful and valuable, just that the main OSM database isn't the right place to store it. J. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: IMO that should be amalgamated back into the general lists. Occasionally tagging procedures get changed after brief discussions between very small select groups metaphorically huddled together in the corner of a room, that turn out to be non beneficial to OSM. It's a similar reason why I believe IRC isn't helpful. The transit tagging schema is universally known as a success story ... Pieren, just kidding of course ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
2014-03-05 15:06 GMT+01:00 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: The transit tagging schema is universally known as a success story ... It will become a success when the first public transport router comes up. Until then, there is basically no use for it. Janko ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
2014-03-05 14:42 GMT+01:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: As an example, we are having repeated discussions how to tag forrest but did not even start thinking about a generic concept how to map vegetation such as: climatic zones vegetation zones soil biology vegetation layers most of these do not seem remotely suitable for the osm data model and the way we collect and store data. Climatic zones and vegetation zones are very big areas with fuzzy boundaries. We do not even manage to map huge areas with clear boundaries (e.g. look for the atlantic ocean in osm), how could we start to map those with fuzzy boundaries? These also might be subject to generalization and interpretation to a degree that 2 scientists in the same field would draw the borders differently. IMHO these could maybe produced out of osm data (together with other data like precipitation, temperature etc.) if you'd analyzed the occurence of certain species (the tags for mapping single plants are there, you only have to use them, currently these are the numbers: 319 553 *species* http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/species 125 867 *species*:de http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/species%3Ade 81 881 *species*:it http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/species%3Ait 131 887* taxon* http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/taxon Tags regarding soil biology are also very hard to verify on the ground by the general mapper. They require specialized knowledge and maybe also a laboratory to do analysis and similar. Even if collecting the data wasn't an issue (say it would be possibile to import perfect data), still it won't integrate or fit well with the datamodel (this is more statistical data than actual hard facts, and drawing the border is almost impossible). Your last point, vegetation layers, might be a little bit different. IMHO this could be done, and partly it already is (see the landcover-key) cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 01:59:33PM +, Jonathan Bennett wrote: On 05/03/2014 13:42, Richard Z. wrote: climatic zones vegetation zones soil biology vegetation layers Are any of these things verifiable? of course. Tons of literature about it. Are they relatively static or do they change with the weather/season/year-to-year? Most of them are stable over centuries untill someone comes with a chainsaw. Do not ask me too many details, I know enough that I would consider somesuch framework as one of the better ways to map vegetation but not enough to make the proposal. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 01:52:50PM +, Dave F. wrote: IMO that should be amalgamated back into the general lists. Occasionally tagging procedures get changed after brief discussions between very small select groups metaphorically huddled together in the corner of a room, that turn out to be non beneficial to OSM. It's a similar reason why I believe IRC isn't helpful. More often people change the wiki any way they like because they don't find a suitable forum to ask. Even more often people just invent tags without any documentation or discussion. I have read plenty of the other lists talking about how complicated it is to map pedestrian ways, memorial stones and Austrian street addresses. Meanwhile we don't have a way to tag lava fields, lava flows, hot springs, waterway=dam is a mess, I have just barely fixed waterfalls. The world is just too complicated for one list and for someone mapping the antarctic geology bus route mapping is not so interesting. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
On Wednesday 05 March 2014, Richard Z. wrote: climatic zones vegetation zones soil biology vegetation layers Are any of these things verifiable? of course. Tons of literature about it. That is not what verifiability is about. Climate and Vegetation characteristics are generally continuously changing properties and the specific zone limits defined by some convention are not usually verifiable in the field. In case of climate zones you would for example need long term measurements at a certain place to determine if it belongs to a certain climate zone and even if you have that you cannot say anything about the climate of other locations - hence you cannot draw a boundary in a verifiable way. I explained this in case of deserts (probably the most prominent attempt to map something like this in OSM) some time ago in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:natural%3Ddesert -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
2014-03-05 16:22 GMT+01:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: More often people change the wiki any way they like because they don't find a suitable forum to ask. Even more often people just invent tags without any documentation or discussion. Yes, these edits happen, but I doubt it is because there is not a suitable mailing list (in the end tagging is suitable for all tagging questions), IMHO this happens because the editor believes that he already knows the truth, and because he thinks discussion is too bothering. I am not per se against a new mailing list (would surely subscribe to it ;-) ), but I doubt it would solve the above mentioned problems. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 04:59:17PM +0100, Christoph Hormann wrote: On Wednesday 05 March 2014, Richard Z. wrote: climatic zones vegetation zones soil biology vegetation layers Are any of these things verifiable? of course. Tons of literature about it. That is not what verifiability is about. Climate and Vegetation characteristics are generally continuously changing properties and the specific zone limits defined by some convention are not usually verifiable in the field. In case of climate zones you would for example need long term measurements at a certain place to determine if it belongs to a certain climate zone and even if you have that you cannot say anything about the climate of other locations - hence you cannot draw a boundary in a verifiable way. I explained this in case of deserts (probably the most prominent attempt to map something like this in OSM) some time ago in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:natural%3Ddesert oh yes. You can say the same about a forrest and almost anything in the real world. When does a forrest have dense enough trees to be called a forrest and how tall should a tree be to be called a tree instead of bush? Is an Iowa tall grass prairie a kind of grasland? Despite your opinion some areas are known as deserts while others are known as lakes, rivers, grasland and forrest. And of course there are well known and widely accepted climatic zones characterisations such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%B6ppen_climate_classification Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 04:04:10PM +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2014-03-05 14:42 GMT+01:00 Richard Z. ricoz@gmail.com: As an example, we are having repeated discussions how to tag forrest but did not even start thinking about a generic concept how to map vegetation such as: climatic zones vegetation zones soil biology vegetation layers most of these do not seem remotely suitable for the osm data model and the way we collect and store data. Climatic zones and vegetation zones are very big areas with fuzzy boundaries. We do not even manage to map huge areas with clear boundaries (e.g. look for the atlantic ocean in osm), how could we start to map those with fuzzy boundaries? the zones may not be as huge as you would imagine. In some cases the zones are just square miles or much smaller with very sharp boundaries as seen on Mauna Kea, Haleakala, or some places on Kauai. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Koppen_World_Map_%28retouched_version%29.png And if we have problems with the Atlantic Ocean we should fix them:) These also might be subject to generalization and interpretation to a degree that 2 scientists in the same field would draw the borders differently. this could happen, the bigger problem I see is that in every country they would apply the same rules slightly differently. But we have similar problems in most other domains and still try to map them. Just recall the discussion of highway=track classification. IMHO these could maybe produced out of osm data (together with other data like precipitation, temperature etc.) interesting idea. You would also need a very good elevation model and prevailing winds, soil properties and maybe some other details of course. However I believe that a climatic zone is an empirical data set and trying to derive it from other information is like trying a 4 weeks weather forecast. It may work in some areas but the result will be worse than using observed data. Another point is, the climatic zones may be useful to predict vegetation characterstics for large areas of the world where detailed vegetation mapping is not available yet. if you'd analyzed the occurence of certain species (the tags for mapping single plants are there, you only have to use them, currently these are the numbers: 319 553 *species* http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/species 125 867 *species*:de http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/species%3Ade 81 881 *species*:it http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/species%3Ait 131 887* taxon* http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/taxon I think that really underscores the need for a mailing list for such subjects because I had never the idea that this tags exist. Tags regarding soil biology are also very hard to verify on the ground by the general mapper. They require specialized knowledge and maybe also a laboratory to do analysis and similar. frequently people searching mushrooms will have very good knowledge of this subject. I don't hope to get a perfect map of soil biology anytime soon but having a framework for it prepared should not hurt. Even if collecting the data wasn't an issue (say it would be possibile to import perfect data), still it won't integrate or fit well with the datamodel (this is more statistical data than actual hard facts, and drawing the border is almost impossible). I find it always hard to decide where to draw borders of forrests because they are fuzzy and unfortunately many lakes and rivers have shores which are changing very quickly over time which is an even bigger problem. Your last point, vegetation layers, might be a little bit different. IMHO this could be done, and partly it already is (see the landcover-key) yes, landcover is a step in the right direction but IMHO nowhere close to a satisfactory mapping of vegetation and ground properties. Mapping for example the Sonoran desert would require yet another approach, it is essential to specify the properties of the partially exposed ground as well as the vegetation. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
On Wednesday 05 March 2014, Richard Z. wrote: oh yes. You can say the same about a forrest and almost anything in the real world. No, continuously changing properties exist for many features including for example the transit from wood to grassland but climate zones in addition have the problem of only being defined in the long term average. You will be able to determine the density of trees growing in some area at any single point of time without much effort and can use this as a basis to verifiably decide if this is a wood or not. But you will need to measure the temperature for many years to approximately determine the long term average. Precipitation is even trickier. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 07:16:36AM -0500, Serge Wroclawski wrote: How is this different from other tagging discussions? tagging discussion is only the last step. Before it can happen we need to have a pretty good model of what we want to map and then decide how it could be mapped. Most of us have a pretty good working model of a road and a house in our head which make it easy to skip the modeling phase and go to tagging discussion. Apparently this is not so easy with vegetation, geology and other natural phenomena which require considerable special knowledge to select a suitable data model. Even in the relatively familiar case of vegetation our model to map it is highly unsatisfactory becuase it went to tagging discussion before researching a suitable model. Our model of geology is limitted to mapping single_stones, bare_rocks and cliffs. Would it be possible to do this better? I have no idea, it is something that should be discussed but is not a tagging discussion. Simple things like mapping corral reefs are still not available. Would it be possible to map the Gulf stream or other currents? Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 08:44:54PM +0100, Christoph Hormann wrote: On Wednesday 05 March 2014, Richard Z. wrote: oh yes. You can say the same about a forrest and almost anything in the real world. No, continuously changing properties exist for many features including for example the transit from wood to grassland but climate zones in addition have the problem of only being defined in the long term average. You will be able to determine the density of trees growing in some area at any single point of time without much effort and can use this as a basis to verifiably decide if this is a wood or not. But you will need to measure the temperature for many years to approximately determine the long term average. Precipitation is even trickier. despite beeing sometimes tricky I still consider it pretty important to know that a certain area is eg part of the tundra climate, permafrost or monsoon. And when hiking on Kauai I would pretty sure want to have this information handy: http://www.fs.fed.us/psw/topics/ecosystem_processes/tropical/restoration/lifezone/hawaii/Kauai.jpg http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-D7UQYrsMu24/UVuvQS7In1I/Pp4/TNzHyYeWlZw/s1600/kauai-smaller-map.gif - everything from rain forrest to desert within few miles. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
On 05/03/2014 20:30, Richard Z. wrote: despite beeing sometimes tricky I still consider it pretty important to know that a certain area is eg part of the tundra climate, permafrost or monsoon. ...and as I said, five messages ago: The main OSM database only stores relatively permanent features. That's not to say that this information isn't useful and valuable, just that the main OSM database isn't the right place to store it. The people discussing this issue with you are not questioning the value of this information to you or any other person. They are just pointing out that the OpenStreetMap database is not the correct place to store this information, because we're trying to build a crowdsourced map of the world where you don't need to be a domain expert to be able to contribute. J. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
Richard, After reading your replies to the list about other topics, my view on the situation has evolved. It seems that you want to add highly specialized information into OSM, information which is well documented, but not easy to collect for an amateur mapper (someone who comes in off the street, who does not own specialized equipment, etc.) In my view, while this information may be extremely valuable, it is likely not a good fit for the project generally. OSM is designed to be a very general use database. It doesn't handle specialized data very well because OSM is interested not just in ground truth, but in the ability for virtually anyone to be able to contribute. If my understanding is correct, then you might be better off with a separate database, and not using OSM. In addition, if the data changes frequently (I'd say more than once or twice a year), then it's also not a good candidate for OSM. There are exceptions to this rule, such as in the case of Haiti and the placement of tent cities, but generally, OSM deals with generally unchanging features. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 08:41:06PM +, Jonathan Bennett wrote: On 05/03/2014 20:30, Richard Z. wrote: despite beeing sometimes tricky I still consider it pretty important to know that a certain area is eg part of the tundra climate, permafrost or monsoon. ...and as I said, five messages ago: The main OSM database only stores relatively permanent features. That's not to say that this information isn't useful and valuable, just that the main OSM database isn't the right place to store it. what exactly is not relatively permanent about a permafrost region? The permafrost has been there since the last ice age and maybe longer, the very name says it. Is the OSM database the right place to store bus routes that change twice a year or whenever there is an accident blocking the particular road? Opening hours of the shop next door which may change every day? All of that is in progress. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new mailing list request - OSM outdoor/natural phenomena mapping
On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 04:38:40PM -0500, Serge Wroclawski wrote:
After reading your replies to the list about other topics, my view on
the situation has evolved. It seems that you want to add highly
specialized information into OSM, information which is well
documented, but not easy to collect for an amateur mapper (someone who
comes in off the street, who does not own specialized equipment, etc.)
well.. back to the subject. I was proposing a mailing list for outdoor
activities mapping and modelling of nature-related stuff.
Later I got carried away trying to explain how better understanding of
natural phenomena and scientific models could improve OSM.
In some cases you may need specialized knowledge to contribute data but
in most cases you only need that knowledge to develop a suitable data
model to represent the obvious things in OSM.
Somehow I am convinced that once a standard model of vegetation layers would
be suitably adopted for OSM an amateur mapper would not find it harder to
use than deciding which of the {landuse|landcover|natural}={forrest|wood}
to apply.
Also, is it really the specialised knowldge that is so complicated? I am
finding myself fighting with multipoligons and relations. Not long ago
I spent half an hour figuring out why some particular islands in a river
weren't rendered.
Richard
___
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Re: [Talk-it] Mailing list OSM Messina
2014-02-24 22:34 GMT+01:00 Luigi Toscano luigi.tosc...@tiscali.it: La lista si trova all'indirizzo https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/osm-messina https://groups.google.com/forum/#%21forum/osm-messina Iniziativa lodevole: ma piuttosto che duplicare gli sforzi, e visto il (sempre basso) numero di utenti siciliani (io per primo, causa emigrazione), perché non una lista regionale? E perché non su questo stesso server, invece che su un servizio esterno? +1 il luogo naturale per ospitare le ML di openstreetmap è openstreetmap stessso. se hai necessità di un contatto per aprire una ML trovi qui tutte le info: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailinglist -- -S ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] Mailing list OSM Messina
Luigi Toscano wrote perché non una lista regionale? +1 Luigi Toscano wrote E perché non su questo stesso server, invece che su un servizio esterno? +1 - Ciao, Aury -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Mailing-list-OSM-Messina-tp5797324p5797380.html Sent from the Italy General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] Mailing list OSM Messina
2014-02-25 11:38 GMT+01:00 Simone Cortesi sim...@cortesi.com: 2014-02-24 22:34 GMT+01:00 Luigi Toscano luigi.tosc...@tiscali.it: La lista si trova all'indirizzo https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/osm-messina https://groups.google.com/forum/#%21forum/osm-messina Iniziativa lodevole: ma piuttosto che duplicare gli sforzi, e visto il (sempre basso) numero di utenti siciliani (io per primo, causa emigrazione), perché non una lista regionale? E perché non su questo stesso server, invece che su un servizio esterno? +1 il luogo naturale per ospitare le ML di openstreetmap è openstreetmap stessso. se hai necessità di un contatto per aprire una ML trovi qui tutte le info: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mailinglist si, avevo anch'io proposto in privato di aprire una mailing-list regionale per la Sicilia sul server di OSM. In generale vorrei evitare di usare (come progetto) servizi della concurrenza proprietaria ove possibile. ciao, Martin ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
[Talk-it] Mailing list OSM Messina
Ok. Accetto le critiche e mi propongo anche come amministratore della lista Talk-it-sicilia. Immagino io debba chiedere la creazione della mailing list a Michael Collinson e comunicargli che mi propongo come amministratore, giusto? ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
[Talk-it] Mailing list OSM Messina
Signori buonasera, volevo comunicare che sto cercando di riunire tutte le persone che mappano Messina e provincia in una lista dedicata su Google Gruppi. La lista si trova all'indirizzo https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/osm-messina Ovviamente chi volesse dare una mano pur non essendo della zona o comunque pur non mappando l'area messinese è il benvenuto! Cercheremo di condividere progressi, progetti, di conoscerci e di rendere sempre più bella e completa la mappatura del territorio di Messina e provincia. Grazie e buon mapping! https://groups.google.com/forum/#%21forum/osm-messina ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] Mailing list OSM Messina
John Doe wrote: Signori buonasera, volevo comunicare che sto cercando di riunire tutte le persone che mappano Messina e provincia in una lista dedicata su Google Gruppi. La lista si trova all'indirizzo https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/osm-messina https://groups.google.com/forum/#%21forum/osm-messina Iniziativa lodevole: ma piuttosto che duplicare gli sforzi, e visto il (sempre basso) numero di utenti siciliani (io per primo, causa emigrazione), perché non una lista regionale? E perché non su questo stesso server, invece che su un servizio esterno? Ciao -- Luigi ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
[OSM-talk-be] Talk-be mailing list
Ik krijg er een punthoofd van om de mail threads proberen te volgen met al die voorgaande mails die er telkens weer in verweven zitten. Op den duur zie je niet meer wie wat waarop geantwoord heeft. Heeft er al iemand aan gedacht om heel deze handel naar het forum te verhuizen? Lijkt mij in elk geval een stuk gemakkelijker om te volgen. Dan kunnen we de mail list gebruiken voor wat hij eigenlijk moet dienen: broadcast van berichten over vanalles-en-nogwat ipv vraag-en-antwoord. Op het forum zouden we dan ook sticky posts kunnen zetten met wat info voor nieuwkomers, FAQ, enz. Voor de Duitsers en de Nederlanders lijkt het toch goed te werken op die manier ? Nog iemand die er zo over denkt? Gilbert ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Talk-be mailing list
On Saturday 26 October 2013 17:31:08 Gilbert Hersschens wrote: Ik krijg er een punthoofd van om de mail threads proberen te volgen met al die voorgaande mails die er telkens weer in verweven zitten. Op den duur zie je niet meer wie wat waarop geantwoord heeft. Heeft er al iemand aan gedacht om heel deze handel naar het forum te verhuizen? Lijkt mij in elk geval een stuk gemakkelijker om te volgen. Dan kunnen we de mail list gebruiken voor wat hij eigenlijk moet dienen: broadcast van berichten over vanalles-en-nogwat ipv vraag-en-antwoord. Op het forum zouden we dan ook sticky posts kunnen zetten met wat info voor nieuwkomers, FAQ, enz. Voor de Duitsers en de Nederlanders lijkt het toch goed te werken op die manier ? Nog iemand die er zo over denkt? Wel, mailing lists zijn altijd al druk gebruikt in de wereld van open source, juist om te discussiëren. Ga naar eender welk ander open source project en de mailing list is quasi altijd te plek waar het meeste gebeurt, en een forum is vaak nergens te vinden. Grote voordeel van een mailing list is dat het zo passief is, bij forums moet je zelf als gebruiker regelmatig gaan checken op dat forum, en als je nogal veel projecten volgt wordt dit al gauw een langdurig werkje. Ik volg zelf goeie twintig mailing lists, moesten dat forums zijn zou ik veel te lang bezig zijn. Vooral voor mailing lists met weinig verkeer (een berichtje per week bijvoorbeeld) is dat veel te tijdrovend. Er zijn natuurlijk RSS-feeds mogelijk op forums maar voor mij persoonlijk vind ik die niet zo handig (en het ene forum stuurt iets door telkens er een berichtje bijkomt, de andere enkel bij een nieuw topic, dat wordt ook een warboel). Mailing lists kan je makkelijk automatisch filteren, in mapjes steken en dan als je tijd hebt kan je meteen al je mailing lists doorlopen op de dingen die je interesseren. Sommige email clients kunnen ook alle berichten van eenzelfde discussie mooi onder elkaar zetten, zoals gmail het doet, dan leest zo'n mailing list eigenlijk net zoals een forum. Natuurlijk zitten we met OSM met een groot publiek dat niet uit de open source gemeenschap komt en deze vorm van communicatie niet echt gewoon is. Het forum is er steeds voor de mensen die er gebruik van willen maken, maar wat België betreft is er tot nu toe nooit voldoende volk geweest dat op forum actief is om het bruikbaar te maken. Maar voorlopig ben ik zelf niet echt geneigd om ook actief te worden op het forum, het is veel handiger als alle discussies bij mekaar staan op één plek, en ik wil ook niet het volk op de mailing list ook niet uit elkaar trekken in een groep dat vooral naar het forum kijkt, en een andere groep dat enkel de mailing list volgt. Als de Belgische OSM-gemeenschap verder aangroeit zal het forum wel automatisch actief worden. mvg Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Talk-be mailing list
On 2013-10-26 17:31, Gilbert Hersschens wrote : Ik krijg er een punthoofd van om de mail threads proberen te volgen met al die voorgaande mails die er telkens weer in verweven zitten. Op den duur zie je niet meer wie wat waarop geantwoord heeft. Heeft er al iemand aan gedacht om heel deze handel naar het forum te verhuizen? Lijkt mij in elk geval een stuk gemakkelijker om te volgen. Dan kunnen we de mail list gebruiken voor wat hij eigenlijk moet dienen: broadcast van berichten over vanalles-en-nogwat ipv vraag-en-antwoord. Op het forum zouden we dan ook sticky posts kunnen zetten met wat info voor nieuwkomers, FAQ, enz. Voor de Duitsers en de Nederlanders lijkt het toch goed te werken op die manier ? Nog iemand die er zo over denkt? Gilbert Somewhat later, Google Translation wrote : I get a main point of the mail threads try to follow with all the previous mails again are always interwoven. In time you will not see who did what when answered. Someone has already thought of all this trade to the forum to move? Seems to me in any case a lot easier to follow. Then we can use the mail list for what he really should have: broadcast messages about everything-and-nogwat instead of question-and-answer Woman On the forum we would also sticky posts can put up with some info for newcomers. FAQ, etc. | For the Germans, the Dutch and it seems to work that way? well someone thinks so yet? I do not quite understand all of what you say, but I have subscribed a Gmail account to OSM-talk-be. A filter archives its mail into the right folder and I can access that account with IMAP and Thunderbird. I have absolutely no problem linking threads and finding old mail and replying to it, and no problem with HTML. One should really ask Mailman to do like that, filter HTML for security, and provide a Read-Only IMAP access. The only regret, in addition to not always fully understand the e-mails, is that what becomes decisions and instructions is not summarized in English on the wiki. Cheers, André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] mailing list good practice (user's and software's)
On 2013-09-17 01:40, Glenn Plas wrote : On 2013-09-17 01:02, André Pirard wrote: On 2013-09-16 11:52, Glenn Plas wrote : If you want to be serious about this then a new topic should be initiated by sending a new mail instead of a reply with a new subject. Every decent mailclient out there -usually- does not use the subject to 'thread' mails. instead it uses certain fields in the mail headers. I noticed that mail-man (the mailing list handler of THIS list) does not seem to add those headers (in fact, they seem to be removed from outgoing mails, I cannot find those fields like below). example of those are : References: 20130914070031.83C7A1561AD6@server21 CANHB50fV+JQ_DYnu91QYaURcRyAKk-pqbHGFMQmYzQZAeC=x...@mail.gmail.com 5236af60.2050...@byte-consult.be In-Reply-To: 5236af60.2050...@byte-consult.be This is what the (E)mailers usually use when exchanging mail correspondence (non mailing list) when hitting 'Reply' To be complete: top-posting (putting comments ABOVE the previous messages) is usually really a big nono in the mailing list fields. You should put follow-up comments BELOW the original mail. Personally, It doesn't bother me too much, but on plenty of mailing lists people go absolutely nuts over that fact , more true on long email exchanges, as you need to read a long reply from bottom to top in order to follow the conversation. Of course many clients let you sort using the subject field. If you make sure to bottom-post, automatically you'll be removing the non-relevant sections at the top to compact the response. I admit , when being too quick, I'm a sinner too against that rule once in a while. Some lists have their own requirements, but in general bottom-posting is considered Netiquette, top-posting isn't. It makes you scroll twice to follow a conversation. (go down to find the start, then read up). English : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style You're right, my main gripe is against the mailing list software mailman itself because it does not allow HTML. It does archive a HTML version of the archive but when you look at it on the server you see HTML code. By allow HTML, I mean simple HTML: text style, lists, tables etc, not eccentric showy stuff. I've sent an e-mail to mailman about this and they replied * that we, technical people, do not need HTML because we don't use it much. I think you misunderstood my mail. At the very bottom of that partly quoted mail I stated : . I am very much against using html in mails. I believe HTML belongs on a website, not a mail. I prefer plain-text.. Sorry :) Glenn No, I didn't misunderstand your e-mail and I said 'You're right'. My topic is not what the users do but what mailman does and that's why my quote is partial. I restored the full English text here above, and no, what I had read does not contain I am very much against using html in mails and my text was not related to that phrase. I collaborated with the ietf guys for e-mail and MIME+HTML and I can tell you they are not dumb-asses. Millions of people are using what they did. People forget that the first reason to be of HTML is HT, hypertext http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertext, which is as elegant as necessary to write sensible text, relegating with links the details to further reading. That does not belong only to Web site; some people even wrote HT books. It was also used in the precursors Gopher, WAIS etc. I sometimes use titles and index in long e-mails. I rarely write Web pages to send someone a message. What the ietf intended to include in e-mail is the simple HTML I speak of, not the extravagant one. It allows tables to be included in e-mail. It allows HT links to be used without interspersing text with ugly URLs. It allows basic formating. Your reference, which isn't at all against HTML, advocates the blockquote as a better way to quote text to avoid paragraphs ending up like this one or the last one you quote. blockquote certainly does not belong to websites!!! See following e-mail. Cheers, André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] mailing list good practice (user's and software's)
-source:http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:foot?uselang=frfoot/a = designated/li ... /ul that you can perfectly copypaste like this (only for those who prefer): Balises : * bicycle http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:bicycle?uselang=fr = yes * foot http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:foot?uselang=fr = designated * highway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Key:highway?uselang=fr = path http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway=path?uselang=fr * horse http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:horse?uselang=fr = yes * incline http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:incline?uselang=fr = down * name http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Key:name?uselang=fr = Chemin des Boûfs * sac_scale http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Key:sac%20scale?uselang=fr = hiking * source http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source?uselang=fr = Bing * surface http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Key:surface?uselang=fr = ground * width http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:width?uselang=fr = 2 Do you really think there's a security risk when decoding such kind of things? If people were transferring simple HTML Web pages to e-mail and archiving them in IMAP servers instead of printing them, we would have made a big step towards saving paper, the forest and the planet of our children. Same with most usages of PDF. Cheers, André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
[OSM-talk-be] mailing list good practice
On 2013-09-16 11:15, Pierre Parmentier wrote: Hello, I find the link to gigaom.com http://gigaom.com article very interresting. Thank you Marc. May I suggest: * to adapt the subject of our messages to the topic: fietsknooppunten is no more related to the new theme. It is quite easier to retrieve some items a few weeks later ... * to delete the sections of previous messages (history) when they are no more necessary. Best regards. EN: If you want to be serious about this then a new topic should be initiated by sending a new mail instead of a reply with a new subject. Every decent mailclient out there -usually- does not use the subject to 'thread' mails. instead it uses certain fields in the mail headers. I noticed that mail-man (the mailing list handler of THIS list) does not seem to add those headers (in fact, they seem to be removed from outgoing mails, I cannot find those fields like below). example of those are : References: 20130914070031.83C7A1561AD6@server21 CANHB50fV+JQ_DYnu91QYaURcRyAKk-pqbHGFMQmYzQZAeC=x...@mail.gmail.com 5236af60.2050...@byte-consult.be In-Reply-To: 5236af60.2050...@byte-consult.be This is what the (E)mailers usually use when exchanging mail correspondence (non mailing list) when hitting 'Reply' To be complete: top-posting (putting comments ABOVE the previous messages) is usually really a big nono in the mailing list fields. You should put follow-up comments BELOW the original mail. Personally, It doesn't bother me too much, but on plenty of mailing lists people go absolutely nuts over that fact , more true on long email exchanges, as you need to read a long reply from bottom to top in order to follow the conversation. Of course many clients let you sort using the subject field. If you make sure to bottom-post, automatically you'll be removing the non-relevant sections at the top to compact the response. I admit , when being too quick, I'm a sinner too against that rule once in a while. Some lists have their own requirements, but in general bottom-posting is considered Netiquette, top-posting isn't. It makes you scroll twice to follow a conversation. (go down to find the start, then read up). English : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style NL: In usenet(nieuws)groepen wordt er altijd op gehamerd de antwoorden als bottomposting toe te voegen en daar houdt iedereen zich voor 95% aan, dus daar wordt het erg verwarrend als plotseling mensen gaan topposten want dan gaat bij antwoorden op antwoorden op antwoorden de volgorde de mist in en wordt het totaal van het bericht nauwelijks meer te lezen. Op usenet is het topposten zeer ongewenst en citeer je alleen het relevante deel voor de reactie. Op die wijze hoeft de lezer niet steeds terug te grijpen naar de vorige posts, maar blijven de posts ook kort. Normaal zouden de meeste posts binnen één scherm moeten kunnen passen. Als je de general OSM mailing list even bekijkt dan zie je dat praktisch iedereen bottom-posts doet op relevante secties. Mensen zoals ik, die vele nieuwsgroepen volgen vinden threaded views zeer onoverzichtelijk omdat je dan je steeds weer moet orienteren op de conversatie die daar voor heeft plaatsgevonden. Het is veel efficienter om alles wat nodig is te lezen in de normale leesvolgorde onder elkaar staat binnen hetzelfde bericht. Voorwaarde blijft natuurlijk altijd dat de poster uitsluitend dat quote waar hij/zij op reageert... And last but not least: Gebruikt geen HTML mail... nooit Mijn 2Eurocentjes netetiquette Glenn ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] mailing list good practice
On 2013-09-16 11:52, Glenn Plas wrote: And last but not least: Gebruikt geen HTML mail... nooit Zucht/Facepalm ... Dan krijg je dus wat er met mijn vorige boodschap is gebeurd, omdat Pierre zijn initiële boodschap in HTML heeft verstuurd neemt Thunderbird dit over in de reply (ik was zo dom zelf een reply te doen en enkel het subject aan te passen), met als gevolg dat een deel van mijn reply op zijn beurt in HTML doorkomt. Zeer lastige kettingreactie ... vanaf het minste HTML in de bron boodschap krijg je dus een resem HTML mails op de reply. waardoor ik mijn instellingen kan gaan nakijken om dit aan te passen op de verse laptop .. Het zijn simpele richtlijnen/regels maar je zondigt er echt snel tegen voor je het zelf door hebt dus. (autodetect afgezet in options-format- Plain text) Glenn ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] mailing list good practice
On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be wrote: To be complete: top-posting (putting comments ABOVE the previous messages) is usually really a big nono in the mailing list fields. You should put follow-up comments BELOW the original mail. Personally, It doesn't bother me too much, but on plenty of mailing lists people go absolutely nuts over that fact , more true on long email exchanges, as you need to read a long reply from bottom to top in order to follow the conversation. Of course many clients let you sort using the subject field. Please inform Google about this, as with Reply, it hides the original message behind 3 dots at the bottom of the mail. :-/ :-) regards m ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] mailing list good practice
On 2013-09-16 13:06, Marc Gemis wrote: On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 11:52 AM, Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be mailto:gl...@byte-consult.be wrote: To be complete: top-posting (putting comments ABOVE the previous messages) is usually really a big nono in the mailing list fields. You should put follow-up comments BELOW the original mail. Personally, It doesn't bother me too much, but on plenty of mailing lists people go absolutely nuts over that fact , more true on long email exchanges, as you need to read a long reply from bottom to top in order to follow the conversation. Of course many clients let you sort using the subject field. Please inform Google about this, as with Reply, it hides the original message behind 3 dots at the bottom of the mail. :-/ :-) It looks like you're doing fine on this message though :) It's probably because when replying to 'regular' emails (since a mailing list isn't USENET) the consensus is to top-post. I do this too with daily mail exchanges. But it's good that you mention this fact, so we understand better where habits like this comes from. I'm not a gmail user, although I have a gmail account, it's a spambox for me :) Glenn ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] mailing list good practice
On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 1:17 PM, Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be wrote: It looks like you're doing fine on this message though :) The behaviour is different for replies when a part of the original message was selected (placed at top) and no selection (just included at the end) m. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] mailing list good practice
On Mon, Sep 16, 2013 at 11:52:51AM +0200, Glenn Plas wrote: EN: If you want to be serious about this then a new topic should be initiated by sending a new mail instead of a reply with a new subject. Every decent mailclient out there -usually- does not use the subject to 'thread' mails. instead it uses certain fields in the mail headers. I noticed that mail-man (the mailing list handler of THIS list) does not seem to add those headers (in fact, they seem to be removed from outgoing mails, I cannot find those fields like below). example of those are : References: 20130914070031.83C7A1561AD6@server21 CANHB50fV+JQ_DYnu91QYaURcRyAKk-pqbHGFMQmYzQZAeC=x...@mail.gmail.com 5236af60.2050...@byte-consult.be In-Reply-To: 5236af60.2050...@byte-consult.be This is what the (E)mailers usually use when exchanging mail correspondence (non mailing list) when hitting 'Reply' Those headers are there. They're not there on mail you replied to because he actually started a new thread, and your mail client should have shown that. Kurt ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] mailing list good practice
Those headers are there. They're not there on mail you replied to because he actually started a new thread, and your mail client should have shown that. Yup you're right, found out later why, just didn't think it was worth spamming another one to the list and keep the focus, it was a tangent anyway. Glenn ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] mailing list good practice (user's and software's)
On 2013-09-17 01:02, André Pirard wrote: On 2013-09-16 11:52, Glenn Plas wrote : If you want to be serious about this then a new topic should be initiated by sending a new mail instead of a reply with a new subject. Every decent mailclient out there -usually- does not use the subject to 'thread' mails. instead it uses certain fields in the mail headers. I noticed that mail-man (the mailing list handler of THIS list) does not seem to add those headers (in fact, they seem to be removed from outgoing mails, I cannot find those fields like below). You're right, my main gripe is against the mailing list software mailman itself because it does not allow HTML. It does archive a HTML version of the archive but when you look at it on the server you see HTML code. By allow HTML, I mean simple HTML: text style, lists, tables etc, not eccentric showy stuff. I've sent an e-mail to mailman about this and they replied * that we, technical people, do not need HTML because we don't use it much. I think you misunderstood my mail. At the very bottom of that partly quoted mail I stated : Never use HTML mail. I am very much against using html in mails. I believe HTML belongs on a website, not a mail. I prefer plain-text.. Sorry :) Glenn ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] mailing list good practice (user's and software's)
On 2013-09-16 11:52, Glenn Plas wrote : If you want to be serious about this then a new topic should be initiated by sending a new mail instead of a reply with a new subject. Every decent mailclient out there -usually- does not use the subject to 'thread' mails. instead it uses certain fields in the mail headers. I noticed that mail-man (the mailing list handler of THIS list) does not seem to add those headers (in fact, they seem to be removed from outgoing mails, I cannot find those fields like below). You're right, my main gripe is against the mailing list software mailman itself because it does not allow HTML. It does archive a HTML version of the archive but when you look at it on the server you see HTML code. By allow HTML, I mean simple HTML: text style, lists, tables etc, not eccentric showy stuff. I've sent an e-mail to mailman about this and they replied * that we, technical people, do not need HTML because we don't use it much. They obviously did not look at, for example, o the OSM Web pages http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/52411 in which the tags and other data are in tables that we can copypaste to an e-mail, o nor at the plentiful number of links in Wiki Web pages http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features or other references: decency requests to use them in e-mail too so that the reader finds the information with a click instead of a Google search o nor simply this way to make a long phrase understandable * that the mailman's *default configuration* screens out the HTML for security reasons This is weird, because, o if I'm not mistaken, the recipients receive the full HTML message anyway, only the archive is screened out and there's a second full HTML copy that the obstinate user can manage to display anyway o as said above, only dangerous HTML needs to be filtered out and there must be code out there to plug in to do the filtering so that the simple, innocuous HTML remains Because of all that, what I have personally done is subscribing a Google account to all my mailing lists and using filters on it to archive each mailing list into its own respective folder. When I need to search my archives, I simply open the wanted folder in IMAP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Message_Access_Protocol mode http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Message_Access_Protocol with Thunderbird http://www.mozilla.org/thunderbird/. Should I need to reply, I, well, click Reply, which I don't know how to do with mailman. I wish mailman were doing that filtering and IMAP service! I would have shared my folders with you if Google had allowed passwordless R/O access to them. Now, more closely related to threading, Thunderbird must be an extra decent program: it can display by subject *or* by thread. Does it use a special algorithm? In a quick overview, I can't find a hitch in the threading in OSM-talk-be. That is, not a message with a subject different that the thread it's in. Cheers, André. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] mailing list good practice (user's and software's)
André, in digest mode, your mails are replaced by a link to the html content. In non-digest mode your mails appear fine. The result is that I never read your mails on the tagging mailing list that I follow i digest mode. It's just too much work to open an additional page to see whether it's interesting enough to read. regards m On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 1:40 AM, Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be wrote: On 2013-09-17 01:02, André Pirard wrote: On 2013-09-16 11:52, Glenn Plas wrote : If you want to be serious about this then a new topic should be initiated by sending a new mail instead of a reply with a new subject. Every decent mailclient out there -usually- does not use the subject to 'thread' mails. instead it uses certain fields in the mail headers. I noticed that mail-man (the mailing list handler of THIS list) does not seem to add those headers (in fact, they seem to be removed from outgoing mails, I cannot find those fields like below). You're right, my main gripe is against the mailing list software mailman itself because it does not allow HTML. It does archive a HTML version of the archive but when you look at it on the server you see HTML code. By allow HTML, I mean simple HTML: text style, lists, tables etc, not eccentric showy stuff. I've sent an e-mail to mailman about this and they replied * that we, technical people, do not need HTML because we don't use it much. I think you misunderstood my mail. At the very bottom of that partly quoted mail I stated : Never use HTML mail. I am very much against using html in mails. I believe HTML belongs on a website, not a mail. I prefer plain-text.. Sorry :) Glenn __**_ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk-behttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Carte du nucléaire (map of nuclear power plants) - from talk-fr mailing list
Hi, The cooling tower at Drogenbos has nothing to do with UCB. It really is part of an Electrabel power plant, just not a nuclear one. The technology involved is combined cycle gas turbine (CCGT) or Turbine Gaz-Vapeur (TGV) in French. I don't know how you should tag that, but there are a few other in Belgium: http://www.electrabel.be/whoarewe/activities/generationfacilities.aspx On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 22:20, Linus Able linusableli...@yahoo.fr wrote: A message on the mailing list talk...@openstreetmap.org presents a map of nuclear power plants : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/nuclear.html (ref : http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr 10 april 2011) I have seen that it is OK for Tihange, but that an UCB tower at Drogenbos is erroneously tagged as a nuclear reactor, and there is nothing about Doel ! On OSM, i have just seen the following tags for the 3 reactors : * generator:method: fission * generator:source: nuclear * power: generator I am not familiar at all with tags concerning power, and i am far from Doel and Mol, so is there somebody to help our french mapper ? linusable - Here follow an extract of my reply on the talk-fr list : pour la Belgique, la carte mentionne 2 localisation. 1. Tihange : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/nuclear.html?zoom=15lat=50.53509lon=5.27252layers=B0TT OK (codé par http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Oli-Wan) 2. Drogenbos : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/nuclear.html?zoom=16lat=50.80172lon=4.30018layers=B0TT Il s'agit d'une tour de refroidissement d'une entreprise chimique (UCB, mais qui a peut-être changé de dénomination) -- il n'y a rien de nucléaire à cet endroit ! Par contre, il y a une centrale à Doel (production électrique) : http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.32363lon=4.25887zoom=15layers=M Il y a aussi le centre de recherche nucléaire à Mol (http://www.sckcen.be) avec un ancien réacteur. Il est envisagé d'y implanter un réacteur expérimental de nouvelle génération. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.22048lon=5.0913zoom=16layers=M ref : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_centrales_nucl%C3%A9aires_de_Belgique ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
[OSM-talk-be] Carte du nucléaire (map of nuclear power plants) - from talk-fr mailing list
A message on the mailing list talk...@openstreetmap.org presents a map of nuclear power plants : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/nuclear.html (ref : http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr 10 april 2011) I have seen that it is OK for Tihange, but that an UCB tower at Drogenbos is erroneously tagged as a nuclear reactor, and there is nothing about Doel ! On OSM, i have just seen the following tags for the 3 reactors : * generator:method: fission * generator:source: nuclear * power: generator I am not familiar at all with tags concerning power, and i am far from Doel and Mol, so is there somebody to help our french mapper ? linusable - Here follow an extract of my reply on the talk-fr list : pour la Belgique, la carte mentionne 2 localisation. 1. Tihange : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/nuclear.html?zoom=15lat=50.53509lon=5.27252layers=B0TT OK (codé par http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Oli-Wan) 2. Drogenbos : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/nuclear.html?zoom=16lat=50.80172lon=4.30018layers=B0TT Il s'agit d'une tour de refroidissement d'une entreprise chimique (UCB, mais qui a peut-être changé de dénomination) -- il n'y a rien de nucléaire à cet endroit ! Par contre, il y a une centrale à Doel (production électrique) : http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.32363lon=4.25887zoom=15layers=M Il y a aussi le centre de recherche nucléaire à Mol (http://www.sckcen.be) avec un ancien réacteur. Il est envisagé d'y implanter un réacteur expérimental de nouvelle génération. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.22048lon=5.0913zoom=16layers=M ref : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_centrales_nucl%C3%A9aires_de_Belgique___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
[Talk-de] mailing-list
Please erase me from the mailing-list. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
Re: [Talk-de] mailing-list
Am Mittwoch 17 März 2010 20:48:59 schrieb Rolf Schulte: Please erase me from the mailing-list. ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de Hallo Rolf, das kannst Du doch selber tuen, findest Du im obigen Link ganz unten. Chris... ___ Talk-de mailing list Talk-de@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-de
[OSM-talk] talk-haiti@ mailing list (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Coordination for Haiti Mapping])
On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 9:31 AM, Colin Marquardt cmarq...@googlemail.comwrote: 2010/1/27 Adrian Brain adrianpbr...@yahoo.co.uk Perhaps osm-humanitarian to cover future uses? I'd vote for this name, because osm-relief could be read as osm-contours or something topographical like that. +1 for a talk-ha...@openstreetmap.org mailing list. And a osm-humanitarian@ list, having the google group is fine, But it's outside the osm-system so it's a bit harder to follow. I'd also go for a osm-contours mailing list, while where at it since contour mapping is slightly beyond the scope of OSM, but used for OSM maps. Sam ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [Talk-it] mailing list
Il 21 ottobre 2009 23.14, iiizio iiizio iiizio.iii...@gmail.com ha scritto: E ogni quanto ti serve sapere quanti siamo? non lo so ma quando mi serve saperlo magari mi serve subito e non posso aspettare la risposta, se pur celere, dell'amministratore Cambia qualcosa in quello che scrivi se gli utenti sono 292 o 294? di due non mi cambia ma di 50 o cento persone si! Parliamo anche della libertà di rimanere anonimi o di non venire riempiti di spam per essersi iscritti ad una ML. non è che se si apre la lista degli iscritti la possano vedere tutti, bisogna essere iscritti alla lista per potervi accedere, poi come mi hai consigliato te prima basta che mi scarico l'archivio e mi tiro fuori i nomi per fare dello spam e sono quasi sicuro che quelli che fanno spam non si mettono a vedere una per una le liste degli iscritti per fare spam! E quelli che la leggono da nabble come li conti? spero non ce ne siano molti :-) iiizio ciao Luca ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] mailing list
Il 21 ottobre 2009 21.56, Simone Cortesi sim...@cortesi.com ha scritto: 2009/10/21 Luca Delucchi lucadel...@gmail.com: perchè non vorrei ogni volta che voglio sapere quanti iscritti ci sono chiederlo all'amministratore che magari risponde troppo tardi.. ;-) 292 iscritti. maestro ci ho messo troppo a risponderle? :) no ma come ti ripeto ci potrebbero essere delle volte che potrebbe essere troppo tardi, non capisco perchè non si possa aprire la lista agli iscritti... -S ciao Luca ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] mailing list
E quelli che la leggono da nabble come li conti? spero non ce ne siano molti :-) mi sa che in realtà non sono pochi quelli che leggono la mailing list senza essere iscritti (in altre ml o forum sono sicuro che sono molti di più in realtà). Ciao, Stefano ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] mailing list
Il 22 ottobre 2009 11.04, Stefano Salvador stefano.salva...@gmail.com ha scritto: mi sa che in realtà non sono pochi quelli che leggono la mailing list senza essere iscritti (in altre ml o forum sono sicuro che sono molti di più in realtà). come fai a dirlo? Ciao, Stefano ciao Luca ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] mailing list
mi sa che in realtà non sono pochi quelli che leggono la mailing list senza essere iscritti (in altre ml o forum sono sicuro che sono molti di più in realtà). come fai a dirlo? nei forum è facile scoprirlo perchè ti scrivono sempre il numero degli ospiti e sono sempre più numerosi degli utenti loggati. Poi ci sono alcune ml famose che tanti leggono ma non si iscrivono (un esempio può essere la Linux Kernel Mailing List). In ogni caso dipende tutto dal tipo di statistica a cui sei interessato. Ciao, Stefano ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
[Talk-it] mailing list
Si potrebbe aprire a tutti la visione degli iscritti alla mailing list? vorrei sapere il numero di iscritti ciao Luca ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] mailing list
2009/10/21 Luca Delucchi lucadel...@gmail.com: Si potrebbe aprire a tutti la visione degli iscritti alla mailing list? vorrei sapere il numero di iscritti Allora perché non chiedi semplicemente il numero di iscritti? Riguardo alla lista degli iscritti se ne era già parlato l'anno scorso e la richiesta era stata bocciata per mancanza di motivazioni valide. Puoi sempre ricavarti la lista di quelli attivi scaricandoti gli archivi gzippati ed estraendo i nomi. iiizio ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] mailing list
Il 21 ottobre 2009 21.14, iiizio iiizio iiizio.iii...@gmail.com ha scritto: 2009/10/21 Luca Delucchi lucadel...@gmail.com: Si potrebbe aprire a tutti la visione degli iscritti alla mailing list? vorrei sapere il numero di iscritti Allora perché non chiedi semplicemente il numero di iscritti? perchè non vorrei ogni volta che voglio sapere quanti iscritti ci sono chiederlo all'amministratore che magari risponde troppo tardi.. ;-) Riguardo alla lista degli iscritti se ne era già parlato l'anno scorso e la richiesta era stata bocciata per mancanza di motivazioni valide. va beh noi parliamo di libertà e poi chiudiamo la lista di persone che sono iscritte a una lista pubblica, secondo me basterebbe questo come motivo Puoi sempre ricavarti la lista di quelli attivi scaricandoti gli archivi gzippati ed estraendo i nomi. ma perchè mi devo sbattere quando potrei inserire utente e password e leggere il numero che c'è scritto in alto così come faccio in tutte le altre mailing list e poi magari c'è gente iscritta che non scrive ma legge :-) iiizio ciao Luca ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] mailing list
2009/10/21 Luca Delucchi lucadel...@gmail.com: perchè non vorrei ogni volta che voglio sapere quanti iscritti ci sono chiederlo all'amministratore che magari risponde troppo tardi.. ;-) 292 iscritti. maestro ci ho messo troppo a risponderle? :) -S ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
Re: [Talk-it] mailing list
2009/10/21 Luca Delucchi lucadel...@gmail.com: Il 21 ottobre 2009 21.14, iiizio iiizio iiizio.iii...@gmail.com ha scritto: 2009/10/21 Luca Delucchi lucadel...@gmail.com: Si potrebbe aprire a tutti la visione degli iscritti alla mailing list? vorrei sapere il numero di iscritti Allora perché non chiedi semplicemente il numero di iscritti? perchè non vorrei ogni volta che voglio sapere quanti iscritti ci sono chiederlo all'amministratore che magari risponde troppo tardi.. ;-) E ogni quanto ti serve sapere quanti siamo? Cambia qualcosa in quello che scrivi se gli utenti sono 292 o 294? Riguardo alla lista degli iscritti se ne era già parlato l'anno scorso e la richiesta era stata bocciata per mancanza di motivazioni valide. va beh noi parliamo di libertà e poi chiudiamo la lista di persone che sono iscritte a una lista pubblica, secondo me basterebbe questo come motivo Parliamo anche della libertà di rimanere anonimi o di non venire riempiti di spam per essersi iscritti ad una ML. Puoi sempre ricavarti la lista di quelli attivi scaricandoti gli archivi gzippati ed estraendo i nomi. ma perchè mi devo sbattere quando potrei inserire utente e password e leggere il numero che c'è scritto in alto così come faccio in tutte le altre mailing list e poi magari c'è gente iscritta che non scrive ma legge :-) E quelli che la leggono da nabble come li conti? iiizio ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
[OSM-talk] New mailing list - annou...@openstreetmap.org
Another new mailing list has been created: annou...@openstreetmap.org You can subscribe here: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/announce Announce is a moderated list limited to announcements about OSM services, new software versions and any other really, really important news that affects the whole community. This will be a low-volume, no-chatter list that should be safe to subscribe to, even for the smallest of mailbox allowances. Sysadmins, maintainers: Please mail announce when you release new versions or plan downtime. Thanks, Jonathan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New mailing list - annou...@openstreetmap.org
Jonathan Bennett wrote: Another new mailing list has been created: annou...@openstreetmap.org You can subscribe here: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/announce Announce is a moderated list limited to announcements about OSM services, new software versions and any other really, really important news that affects the whole community. This will be a low-volume, no-chatter list that should be safe to subscribe to, even for the smallest of mailbox allowances. Sysadmins, maintainers: Please mail announce when you release new versions or plan downtime. I welcome this addition. To keep this low volume and to facilitate discussion on the subjects of the posts in the correct place, would it be conducive if the senders recommend an appropriate forum, maybe even starting a discussion thread in said forum? Cheers Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New mailing list - annou...@openstreetmap.org
On Wed, 7 Oct 2009, Dave F. wrote: I welcome this addition. To keep this low volume and to facilitate discussion on the subjects of the posts in the correct place, would it be conducive if the senders recommend an appropriate forum, maybe even starting a discussion thread in said forum? It's a moderated forum, so they moderator will either be overwhelmed by junk postings or allow only suitable individuals to post. So a note in any mail which will point to the place where discussion is expected would be helpful. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] New mailing list - tagg...@openstreetmap.org
Hi all, I'm pleased to announce a new mailing list: tagg...@openstreetmap.org . You can subscribe at: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging The mailing list description is tag discussion, strategy and related tools. The list will enable those who want to discuss tags to do so at any length they like, especially those who might not subscribe to talk@ because of its general high volume but would like to be involved in tagging discussions. Equally, it will help those who are less interested, and only use a subset of tags in their mapping work, avoid the discussions. Enjoy. :) cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New mailing list - tagg...@openstreetmap.org
On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 12:02 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: I'm pleased to announce a new mailing list: tagg...@openstreetmap.org . So, we still have to create a what is thinking Frederik list and a what is not saying SteveC and we can close the main osm-talk list. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New mailing list - tagg...@openstreetmap.org
+1 Thanks Richard Fairhurst. Sam On 10/5/09, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 12:02 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: I'm pleased to announce a new mailing list: tagg...@openstreetmap.org . So, we still have to create a what is thinking Frederik list and a what is not saying SteveC and we can close the main osm-talk list. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Twitter: @Acrosscanada Blog: http://Acrosscanadatrails.blogspot.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[Talk-it] [Fwd: [OSM-talk] New mailing list - tagg...@openstreetmap.org]
E' stata aperta la mailing list tagg...@openstreetmap.org dove poter discutere esclusivamente dei tag di osm. In questo modo si elimina questo argomento dalla mailing list principale (talk). Chiunque fosse interessato può iscriversi qui: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Edo Messaggio Originale Oggetto:[OSM-talk] New mailing list - tagg...@openstreetmap.org Data: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 23:02:16 +0100 Da: Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net A: OpenStreetMap generic wibble t...@openstreetmap.org Hi all, I'm pleased to announce a new mailing list: tagg...@openstreetmap.org . You can subscribe at: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging The mailing list description is tag discussion, strategy and related tools. The list will enable those who want to discuss tags to do so at any length they like, especially those who might not subscribe to talk@ because of its general high volume but would like to be involved in tagging discussions. Equally, it will help those who are less interested, and only use a subset of tags in their mapping work, avoid the discussions. Enjoy. :) cheers Richard ___ talk mailing list t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ Talk-it mailing list Talk-it@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-it
[OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
Am I missing something, But it would help if the Reply-to header on all messages that go through the list(s) gets set to the list email, so that when we hit reply the message goes to the list by default. This is the way most of the other lists I'm on work, and its a bit annoying having to use Reply to all then remove everyone except the list. Also most people don't want the reply sent too them twice as if they are posting they are on the list, and hence should receive the answer twice. This might also help reduce the number of questions with out answers, when people have forgotten to put the answer on-list for everyone benefit. If someone want to reply off list then they can change but the default should be on-list. Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
Peter Childs wrote: Am I missing something, But it would help if the Reply-to header on all messages that go through the list(s) gets set to the list email, so that when we hit reply the message goes to the list by default. This is the way most of the other lists I'm on work, and its a bit annoying having to use Reply to all then remove everyone except the list. You are entering 'religious war' areas here Peter ;) This is one of the few lists I use that still follows the return to sender rules rather than return to list, so one has to remember 'Reply All'. And nowadays I then delete all the extra addresses just to be tidy! People will explain why the current way is 'right' and other lists are wrong, and to be honest both views ARE equally valid :( In an ideal world, the email client would actually take care of the matter and would provided each camp with their own preferred view of things - but then the programmers there are in one camp or the other ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
Hi, Am I missing something, But it would help if the Reply-to header on all messages that go through the list(s) gets set to the list email, so that when we hit reply the message goes to the list by default. In short you missed http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html This is the way most of the other lists I'm on work, and its a bit annoying having to use Reply to all then remove everyone except the list. Just because it is a habit doesn't mean it's not a bad habit. Also most people don't want the reply sent too them twice as if they are posting they are on the list, and hence should receive the answer twice. How do you know? Did you ask them? I _want_ to get direct copies. In case people don't want to read mails twice they can tell the list don't send me a second copy or tell their mail reader deduplicate my mail please. This might also help reduce the number of questions with out answers, when people have forgotten to put the answer on-list for everyone benefit. You can't idiot-proof people... If someone want to reply off list then they can change but the default should be on-list. Right. Any sane mail client does that. Based on the list-header, without an annoying reply-to header which was never meant to do want you want it to do. So dear list-admins please leave the settings as they are. Thank you. Patrick Petschge Kilian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
2009/9/3 Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk: People will explain why the current way is 'right' and other lists are wrong, and to be honest both views ARE equally valid :( When it comes to being inclusionary I think it's a valid argument to not require people to hit reply to all, many people new to mailing lists don't know any better and they are penalised as a result. In an ideal world, the email client would actually take care of the matter and would provided each camp with their own preferred view of things - but then the programmers there are in one camp or the other ... Yes, but the fact is most don't I couldn't even find a greasemonkey script to do it in firefox/gmail. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
2009/9/3 Patrick Petschge o...@petschge.de: Right. Any sane mail client does that. Based on the list-header, without Virtually no mail client does this. Right, wrong or indifferent it's how things are and I highly doubt anyone new to mailing lists would have such a client. an annoying reply-to header which was never meant to do want you want it to do. Spam filters don't like getting mail from yourself in this manner, because it's a common tactic of spammers. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
2009/9/3 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: 2009/9/3 Patrick Petschge o...@petschge.de: Right. Any sane mail client does that. Based on the list-header, without Virtually no mail client does this. Right, wrong or indifferent it's how things are and I highly doubt anyone new to mailing lists would have such a client. I know that at least KMail has this feature. If there's a list-id in the header it will offer you a 'Reply to all', 'Reply to author' and 'Reply to list' option and default to the latter. Given this, it works fine on all these OSM mailing lists. However, GMail doesn't which is frankly stupid and annoying. Especially since it default to replying to _just_ the author of the email and not the list at all. So, really, this is a problem with the email clients being stupid and the mailing list seems to be set up correctly. The email header's don't have a 'reply-to' field so it seems that GMail defaults to replying to the address in the 'From' field. Even when there's obviously List headers: Precedence: list List-Id: OpenStreetMap user discussion talk.openstreetmap.org List-Unsubscribe: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk, mailto:talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=unsubscribe List-Archive: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk List-Post: mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org List-Help: mailto:talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=help List-Subscribe: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk, mailto:talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=subscribe (In fact it happened when sending this email that GMail defaulted to sending it to just John and I forgot to change it. This is my second try. This needs a bug report to GMail) Regards, Matt Williams http://milliams.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
Patrick Petschge Kilian schrieb: Hi, Am I missing something, But it would help if the Reply-to header on all messages that go through the list(s) gets set to the list email, so that when we hit reply the message goes to the list by default. In short you missed http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html Hi! Repeating this link again and again doesn't make it any more right or wrong than any other opinion. Wasn't it Stalin who said: You have to repeat a lie often enough to become the truth? ;-) Chip Rosenthal expressed what he expects - fine. It's obvious from the repeating mails on this topic, that a lot of others expect something else. This is the way most of the other lists I'm on work, and its a bit annoying having to use Reply to all then remove everyone except the list. Just because it is a habit doesn't mean it's not a bad habit. Right, but that also mean, your workflow (habit) doesn't mean it's not a bad habit. Maybe you're only got used to it ... I know both ways have their pros and cons, so telling other people they are doing something wrong (or bad) is just ... Regards, ULFL ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
2009/9/3 Matt Williams li...@milliams.com: I know that at least KMail has this feature. If there's a list-id in the header it will offer you a 'Reply to all', 'Reply to author' and 'Reply to list' option and default to the latter. Given this, it works fine on all these OSM mailing lists. Most people don't use kmail, nor any other mail client that handles list replying properly. However, GMail doesn't which is frankly stupid and annoying. Especially since it default to replying to _just_ the author of the email and not the list at all. And no greasemonkey script either. And the greasemonkey scripts that do exist to do reply to all don't work anyway. So, really, this is a problem with the email clients being stupid and the mailing list seems to be set up correctly. The email header's We have to deal witht he reality of the situation, no commonly used mail client handles list headers properly, so it's pointless to argue this is a good reason to keep the status quo, in fact it's a good reason to set the reply to to the list since most mail clients don't handle it properly, and most new comers don't know they have to hit reply to all. And you sent this to me directly, was the intentional or because the email client didn't reply to the list? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
Matt Williams wrote: 2009/9/3 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: 2009/9/3 Patrick Petschge o...@petschge.de: Right. Any sane mail client does that. Based on the list-header, without Virtually no mail client does this. Right, wrong or indifferent it's how things are and I highly doubt anyone new to mailing lists would have such a client. I know that at least KMail has this feature. If there's a list-id in the header it will offer you a 'Reply to all', 'Reply to author' and 'Reply to list' option and default to the latter. Given this, it works fine on all these OSM mailing lists. Sylpheed Claws can reply to list as well and Thunderbird has an add-on which adds the command [1]. Cheers Christoph [1] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/4455 However, GMail doesn't which is frankly stupid and annoying. Especially since it default to replying to _just_ the author of the email and not the list at all. So, really, this is a problem with the email clients being stupid and the mailing list seems to be set up correctly. The email header's don't have a 'reply-to' field so it seems that GMail defaults to replying to the address in the 'From' field. Even when there's obviously List headers: Precedence: list List-Id: OpenStreetMap user discussion talk.openstreetmap.org List-Unsubscribe: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk, mailto:talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=unsubscribe List-Archive: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk List-Post: mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org List-Help: mailto:talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=help List-Subscribe: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk, mailto:talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org?subject=subscribe (In fact it happened when sending this email that GMail defaulted to sending it to just John and I forgot to change it. This is my second try. This needs a bug report to GMail) Regards, Matt Williams http://milliams.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
On Thu, 3 Sep 2009, Ulf Lamping wrote: Repeating this link again and again doesn't make it any more right or wrong than any other opinion. I've read it all before. I'm on kmail, I've set reply to list , but its getting harder with the newer kmails to find the setting I frankly disagree with the opinion that it is harmful to set reply to list It is actually harmful to those persons who are still having to use windows instead of nice clear understandable unix based system :-) to make them jump through all sorts of hoops just to reply to a mailing list instead of the author of the mail. That particular author http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html is just plain self-righteous about his superior Unix based system and just so way behind with email management and mailing list management. I've run my own mail server and provided mailing lists for some years and certainly didn't find the difficulties that that author did. Just line up this argument with the other important religious wars of the 20th century like vi vs emacs and please lets ask how many people would like the list reply to headers set. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
2009/9/3 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: And you sent this to me directly, was the intentional or because the email client didn't reply to the list? No, it was because GMail defaulted to emailing just you and I forgot about it until it was too late. It's caught me out several times. I guess the other mailing lists I'm on 'munge' the reply-to header to make it work in GMail. I just can't wait for my internet to improve so I can go back to using IMAP in KMail. -- Matt Williams http://milliams.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
On 03/09/2009 11:53, Christoph Boehme wrote: Sylpheed Claws can reply to list as well and how many people have ever heard of that, let alone use it! and Thunderbird has an add-on which adds the command [1]. which I tried and it doesn't always work. And in any case if you have to press a separate button from normal replying, it's no more use than having to remember to reply to all. The whole point is that you want to be able to set up reply so that for lists it replies the way you want, not how the listmaster thinks you ought to want. As others have said, no widely used mail client does this. Telling people to switch to mail clients that no one has heard of is not helpful. David ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
2009/9/3 Matt Williams li...@milliams.com: 2009/9/3 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: And you sent this to me directly, was the intentional or because the email client didn't reply to the list? No, it was because GMail defaulted to emailing just you and I forgot about it until it was too late. It's caught me out several times. I guess the other mailing lists I'm on 'munge' the reply-to header to make it work in GMail. I just can't wait for my internet to improve so I can go back to using IMAP in KMail. Some of us care more about being practical and dealing with things the way that are. I hope the reply to changes, if for nothing else than to be inclusionary of new people so they don't have to learn to cope with the self righteousness of others. Can we get the reply to on this and the talk-au list and the dev list changed please. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
On 03/09/09 11:53, Christoph Boehme wrote: Sylpheed Claws can reply to list as well and Thunderbird has an add-on which adds the command [1]. Thunderbird 3 has it built in. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
We have to deal witht he reality of the situation, no commonly used mail client handles list headers properly, so it's pointless to argue this is a good reason to keep the status quo, in fact it's a good reason to set the reply to to the list since most mail clients don't handle it properly, and most new comers don't know they have to hit reply to all. The current communications methods are very awkward, particularly when participating in more than one subject. The amount of time to create a new password and sign up is absurd compared to a more typical single sign-on web forum based setup. Some web forums allow email-based communications for those who need that. And for those modern kids, it allows RSS feeds, quickly adding new forum subject categories as needed, and rapid searching and archived thread following rather than relying on Google. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
On 03/09/09 12:28, John Smith wrote: I hope the reply to changes, if for nothing else than to be inclusionary of new people so they don't have to learn to cope with the self righteousness of others. Can we get the reply to on this and the talk-au list and the dev list changed please. Look people. This is, and has been for the 16 years that I have been reading email, a holy war issue (just like vi vs emacs etc) and whatever you do the other side will just complain. Frankly I long ago gave up caring - it's impossible to please everybody so there is no point in trying. Yes I could change it, but then in six months we'll have a flood of complaints from the other side of the argument so I really don't see the point. Just learn to live with both setups. I did long ago. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Mailing List Reply To Header
2009/9/3 Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu: Yes I could change it, but then in six months we'll have a flood of complaints from the other side of the argument so I really don't see the point. Just learn to live with both setups. I did long ago. You can't exactly take the high road here, reply to headers get munged on other OSM lists, can we please have some consistency, either turn them all on or all off. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
