Re: [Talk-us] dubious church node

[John F. Eldredge]

On 9/29/2017 9:59 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

On 9/29/2017 8:31 PM, Max Erickson wrote:

Yeah, a Google search for "Mill Creek Church nashville" has

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nashvillearchives/millcreek.html 



as an early result. It says the church building has been dismantled
but mentions a cemetery, which still exists nearby the mislocated osm
node:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/53498031#map=16/36.1182/-86.7267


Max

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That sounds like a reference to the original Mill Creek Baptist Church 
(there is a current-day church by that name, but it isn't descended 
from the earlier church). I am the person who mapped the Mill Creek 
Baptist Church Graveyard, and am a board member in a nonprofit 
organization, Friends of Mill Creek Baptist Church Graveyard, Inc., 
that maintains the graveyard. The Mill Creek Baptist Church was 
located within the graveyard property, a couple of miles away from 
where this node in question is located. It might possibly have been a 
different church of some other denomination.  Before removing it, I 
will post a question to a Facebook group that discusses local history, 
and see if anyone can tell me if there was ever a church there.



I have now learned more on a local-history Facebook group.  The location 
on Antioch Pike is the original location of the Mill Creek Baptist 
Church congregation that now meets on Wallace Road, about two miles 
away.  This congregation is not descended from the original Mill Creek 
Baptist Church, which was about two miles away in a different direction.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.  Hate cannot drive out 
hate; only love can do that." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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Re: [Talk-us] dubious church node

[John F. Eldredge]

On 9/29/2017 8:31 PM, Max Erickson wrote:

Yeah, a Google search for "Mill Creek Church nashville" has

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nashvillearchives/millcreek.html

as an early result. It says the church building has been dismantled
but mentions a cemetery, which still exists nearby the mislocated osm
node:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/53498031#map=16/36.1182/-86.7267


Max

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That sounds like a reference to the original Mill Creek Baptist Church 
(there is a current-day church by that name, but it isn't descended from 
the earlier church). I am the person who mapped the Mill Creek Baptist 
Church Graveyard, and am a board member in a nonprofit organization, 
Friends of Mill Creek Baptist Church Graveyard, Inc., that maintains the 
graveyard. The Mill Creek Baptist Church was located within the 
graveyard property, a couple of miles away from where this node in 
question is located. It might possibly have been a different church of 
some other denomination.  Before removing it, I will post a question to 
a Facebook group that discusses local history, and see if anyone can 
tell me if there was ever a church there.



--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.  Hate cannot drive out 
hate; only love can do that." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.


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[Talk-us] dubious church node

[John F. Eldredge]

OSM Item 356845407 is a node supposedly marking the location of a church 
named "Mill Creek Church", at coordinates 36.0972810, -86.7027754 
<http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/36.0972810/-86.7027754>. The node 
history shows two changesets making edits to the node, but no changeset 
for the creation of the node. It has these tags:


amenity
	place_of_worship 
<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=place%20of%20worship?uselang=en-US> 


ele <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ele?uselang=en-US>145
gnis:county_id  037
gnis:created05/19/1980
gnis:feature_id 
<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:gnis:feature%20id?uselang=en-US> 
	1306749

gnis:state_id   47
name <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name?uselang=en-US> 	Mill 
Creek Church
religion <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:religion?uselang=en-US> 
	christian 
<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:religion=christian?uselang=en-US>


I became curious about this, as aerial photos in Google Earth do not 
show a church there. I drove to these coordinates, and determined that 
they are for a loading dock on the back of an industrial warehouse. 
There are no signs indicating that any congregation meets there; the 
warehouse appears to be in active commercial use. Should I remove this 
node? -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com "Darkness cannot drive 
out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only 
love can do that." -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.



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Re: [Talk-us] possible upgrade for residential roads in Detroit

[John F. Eldredge]

I don't know about Detroit, but in Nashville, TN, where I live, street 
suffixes don't necessarily reflect their importance. My parents lived for 
decades on Parthenon Avenue, a very minor residential street.



On August 16, 2017 10:08:44 AM "Ionut Radu - (p)"  wrote:


Hi all,

I was looking over residential roads in central area of Detroit and I was 
wondering if some of them should be upgraded to a superior function class 
(e.g. tertiary or secondary).
Lots of them are Avenues and Boulevards with at least two lanes and seems 
to be major collector roads.
I think they were imported from TIGER Roads and some of them need a review 
check.


Some examples:
2nd Avenue (id: 219713713)
West Palmer Avenue (id: 8738831)

The counties of interest are: Wayne, Macomb, Oakland.

What do you think?

Best regards,
Ionut



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Re: [Talk-us] SEO Damage to OSM

[John F. Eldredge]

The "mechanical Turk" term is not an ethnic slur, but instead an allusion 
to a famous 18th-century chess-playing automaton, made to resemble the 
upper body of a man in traditional Turkish clothing, mounted on a cabinet. 
It was eventually revealed to be a fake automaton, operated by a man hidden 
inside. The modern term refers to a human working a repetitive job, because 
they are cheaper than developing a computer program to do the job.






On June 30, 2017 6:23:15 PM Frederik Ramm  wrote:


Hi,

On 06/30/2017 07:24 PM, Ian Dees wrote:

Every edit was made by a new/separate user account that only ever makes
one edit. In most cases, these edits are useful (it's someone adding a
business POI) but in some cases they add the details to the wrong piece
of geometry.


I see. We had a couple similar issues in the past, presumably from some
kind of SaaS SEO tool that will automatically sign up new accounts for
users of the tool. But we might also be dealing with "mechanical
turk"(*) type of human work.

These tools tend to get more sophisticated in flying under our
collective radar, but usually not sophisticated enough to get the
tagging quite right and avoid adding duplicate data.

The addition of advertising copy in the changeset comment is something
I've seen a lot (often duplicated or amended by a note or description tag).

I wonder if downloading a changeset planet and feeding all changeset
comments to some sort of Bayes filter could help identify more problems.

Bye
Frederik

(*) Where I live this term would be considered really offensive towards
those who do this kind of work but it seems to be the normal term in the US?

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Talk-us] Best practice in Lane Editing 2

[John F. Eldredge]

Judging from the markings, that is a turn lane shared by both directions. You 
cannot legally use it to pass a car in the main driving lane, you can only use 
it to make a left turn. Lanes of this type are nicknamed "suicide lanes", 
because of the possibility that vehicles going in opposite directions may try 
to use it simultaneously, resulting in a head-on collision.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- john@jfeldredge
com
On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 6:18 AM Horea Meleg  wrote:
Hello all,
Me and my Telenav colleagues are editing lane numbers in Detroit area. We found 
some cases that looks like this (42.43651692568901, -83.51102781049859):
[cid:image001.jpg@01D2E906.C4A4DCA0]
Our question is: what is the central lane used for and how do we map it?
Should we count it as a separate lane and have 3 lanes in this case (one for 
each direction and one for both directions)
[cid:image002.png@01D2E906.C4A4DCA0]
or have only 2, one for each direction?
[cid:image003.png@01D2E906.C4A4DCA0]

Thank you,
Horea Meleg
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Re: [Talk-us] Combined parking/bike lanes

[John F. Eldredge]

One thing that is an issue with many of the marked bike lanes in 
Nashville, TN is that they aren't contiguous.  You will come to a point 
where the road narrows, such as for a bridge, and the bikes are forced 
to share a lane with motor traffic.  This makes bike riding at rush hour 
a risky activity.


On 02/16/2017 10:38 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 10:11 AM, Spencer Gardner 
mailto:spencergard...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Good catch on the MUTCD language. I'm not opposed to tagging with
a bike lane and a parking lane, but then what should be used as
the assumed width of the bike lane? This has direct relevance for
my application, where I need to know how wide a bike lane is.
Would you suggest an assumed width for parking and then subtract
from the total to arrive at the operable space for people on bicycles?


Check the local standard and get a sample.  Current federal guidelines 
put parking at 8 feet (and is fairly typical), bicycle lanes must be 4 
feet minimum, 5 feet if there's parking adjacent, measured from the 
edge of the gutter pan, or if there is none, the curb face or the edge 
of the roadway (being either the physical edge or the painted edge, 
whichever is closer to the centerline) to the inside of the lane 
marking.  Oregon-specific, 6 feet any time an adjacent lane allows 
motor vehicles or is oncoming.  In practice, it's rare to see a lane 
less than 6 feet wide anymore regardless of application because a 
cargo bike, most adult tricycles and many bikes pulling trailers are a 
tight squeeze in a six foot lane.  It's starting to get common to see 
7 foot lanes in Oregon, often with a 1 foot buffer on the left and a 
two foot buffer between the right edge of the lane and the edgeline 
itself, for a 10 foot single-file bike lane.



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Re: [Talk-us] Timezones in USA?

[John F. Eldredge]

Note that "usually state lines" isn't the same thing as "always state 
lines".  The Central Time Zone/Eastern Time Zone boundary runs through 
the middle of both Tennessee and Kentucky, and the lines aren't 
straight.  They zig-zag according to which time zone the local 
politicians wanted.


On 05/27/2016 07:49 AM, Greg Troxel wrote:

Frederik Ramm  writes:


I have deleted a couple of such time zone polygons account of not being
verifiable on the ground.

I don't know how time zones are defined "at the source" but it is very
unlikely that someone puts up signs. I guess there'll be some kind of
definition that can be kept *outside* of OSM, and can be translated to
polygons with the help of OSM if desired.

This strict on-the-ground notion is overblown.  The real issue in
verifiability is if an ordinary mapper can check the data.  Everyone
around me knows that timezone they are in.  I'm sure everyone near a
boundary knows where it is.  The rules are easily accessible in
libraries, and they refer to boundaries that are signed (in the US,
usually state lines).  You can look at clocks displayed in public.

The real issue is where to draw the line about specialized details that
don't belong on map.  In the case of time zones, they are something that
has traditionally been represented on maps for a long time, in a base
map kind of way, vs a thematic data shown on a base map kind of way.


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Re: [Talk-us] Am I doing this right? Houses w/ addresses

[John F. Eldredge]

If all you are doing on the spot is recording the house number, then what is 
the advantage to using Vespucci instead of a simpler tool?


On April 14, 2015 5:48:09 AM CDT, Simon Poole  wrote:
> 
> Long press. press, press ... typically less than 5 seconds (depending
> on
> the situation I might not even stop walking).
> 
> Simon
> 
> Am 14.04.2015 um 01:32 schrieb John F. Eldredge:
> > That depends, in part, on how long you want to stand there pecking
> away
> > at your device, and how suspicious folks are likely to become if you
> > stand in front of each building for up to several minutes before
> moving on.
> > 
> > 
> > On April 13, 2015 4:02:24 AM CDT, Simon Poole 
> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > IMHO if you are actually entering stuff in to a mobile device,
> you may
> > as well use vespucci and just do it properly the first time. But
> hten
> > I'm biased.
> > 
> > Simon
> > 
> > Am 12.04.2015 um 18:50 schrieb Greg Morgan:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Harald Kliems
>  > <mailto:kli...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > In areas with detached houses, the Android app Keypadmapper
> has
> > worked pretty well for me. Once house numbers get too dense
> (worst
> > case: Montreal, where each apartment in a duplex or triplex
> will
> > have it's own house number) it starts getting tricky
> assigning the
> > number to the correct building. And yeah, Mapillary imagery
> can
> > definitely be useful for address data.
> > 
> > 
> > Keypad mapper is wonderful because you are not as
> conspicuous
> > when using
> > pen and paper. I've tried using ranges were I drop the
> leading two
> > digits while entering five digit numbers. There's a bunch of
> post
> > processing when you actually enter the data. With any
> technique
> > that I
> > use, I always feel like Billy in the family circus. It is
> > amazing where
> > people put addresses. Commercial buildings can be the worst
> case
> > to try
> > and find the number.
> > 
> > http://familycircus.com/comics/april-5-2015/
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
> 
> > 
> > Talk-us mailing list
> > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> > 
> > 
> >
> 
> > 
> > Talk-us mailing list
> > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
> > "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate
> cannot
> > drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > Talk-us mailing list
> > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive 
out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.___
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Re: [Talk-us] Am I doing this right? Houses w/ addresses

[John F. Eldredge]

If all you are doing on the spot is recording the house number

On April 14, 2015 5:48:09 AM CDT, Simon Poole  wrote:
> 
> Long press. press, press ... typically less than 5 seconds (depending
> on
> the situation I might not even stop walking).
> 
> Simon
> 
> Am 14.04.2015 um 01:32 schrieb John F. Eldredge:
> > That depends, in part, on how long you want to stand there pecking
> away
> > at your device, and how suspicious folks are likely to become if you
> > stand in front of each building for up to several minutes before
> moving on.
> > 
> > 
> > On April 13, 2015 4:02:24 AM CDT, Simon Poole 
> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > IMHO if you are actually entering stuff in to a mobile device,
> you may
> > as well use vespucci and just do it properly the first time. But
> hten
> > I'm biased.
> > 
> > Simon
> > 
> > Am 12.04.2015 um 18:50 schrieb Greg Morgan:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Harald Kliems
>  > <mailto:kli...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > In areas with detached houses, the Android app Keypadmapper
> has
> > worked pretty well for me. Once house numbers get too dense
> (worst
> > case: Montreal, where each apartment in a duplex or triplex
> will
> > have it's own house number) it starts getting tricky
> assigning the
> > number to the correct building. And yeah, Mapillary imagery
> can
> > definitely be useful for address data.
> > 
> > 
> > Keypad mapper is wonderful because you are not as
> conspicuous
> > when using
> > pen and paper. I've tried using ranges were I drop the
> leading two
> > digits while entering five digit numbers. There's a bunch of
> post
> > processing when you actually enter the data. With any
> technique
> > that I
> > use, I always feel like Billy in the family circus. It is
> > amazing where
> > people put addresses. Commercial buildings can be the worst
> case
> > to try
> > and find the number.
> > 
> > http://familycircus.com/comics/april-5-2015/
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
> 
> > 
> > Talk-us mailing list
> > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> > 
> > 
> >
> 
> > 
> > Talk-us mailing list
> > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
> > "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate
> cannot
> > drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > Talk-us mailing list
> > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

-- 
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"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive 
out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.___
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Re: [Talk-us] Am I doing this right? Houses w/ addresses

[John F. Eldredge]

That depends, in part, on how long you want to stand there pecking away at your 
device, and how suspicious folks are likely to become if you stand in front of 
each building for up to several minutes before moving on.


On April 13, 2015 4:02:24 AM CDT, Simon Poole  wrote:
> 
> IMHO if you are actually entering stuff in to a mobile device, you may
> as well use vespucci and just do it properly the first time. But hten
> I'm biased.
> 
> Simon
> 
> Am 12.04.2015 um 18:50 schrieb Greg Morgan:
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Harald Kliems  > <mailto:kli...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > 
> > In areas with detached houses, the Android app Keypadmapper has
> > worked pretty well for me. Once house numbers get too dense
> (worst
> > case: Montreal, where each apartment in a duplex or triplex will
> > have it's own house number) it starts getting tricky assigning
> the
> > number to the correct building. And yeah, Mapillary imagery can
> > definitely be useful for address data.
> > 
> > 
> > Keypad mapper is wonderful because you are not as conspicuous when
> using
> > pen and paper.  I've tried using ranges were I drop the leading two
> > digits while entering five digit numbers.  There's a bunch of post
> > processing when you actually enter the data.  With any technique
> that I
> > use, I always feel like Billy in the family circus.  It is amazing
> where
> > people put addresses.  Commercial buildings can be the worst case to
> try
> > and find the number.
> > 
> > http://familycircus.com/comics/april-5-2015/
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > Talk-us mailing list
> > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive 
out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.___
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Re: [Talk-us] Am I doing this right? Houses w/ addresses

[John F. Eldredge]

Commercial buildings are particularly difficult here in Nashville, TN, because 
about 80% of commercial buildings have no street address posted on the outside. 
Apparently, they aren't required to do so.


On April 12, 2015 11:50:21 AM CDT, Greg Morgan  wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Harald Kliems 
> wrote:
> 
> > In areas with detached houses, the Android app Keypadmapper has
> worked
> > pretty well for me. Once house numbers get too dense (worst case:
> Montreal,
> > where each apartment in a duplex or triplex will have it's own house
> > number) it starts getting tricky assigning the number to the correct
> > building. And yeah, Mapillary imagery can definitely be useful for
> address
> > data.
> >
> 
> Keypad mapper is wonderful because you are not as conspicuous when
> using
> pen and paper.  I've tried using ranges were I drop the leading two
> digits
> while entering five digit numbers.  There's a bunch of post processing
> when
> you actually enter the data.  With any technique that I use, I always
> feel
> like Billy in the family circus.  It is amazing where people put
> addresses.  Commercial buildings can be the worst case to try and find
> the
> number.
> 
> http://familycircus.com/comics/april-5-2015/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive 
out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.___
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Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

[John F. Eldredge]

Under French law, would it be a violation of that copyright if someone recorded 
a GPX trace while walking along the signposted route, then mapped that route in 
OSM using the GPX trace and not using the GR name or shield? Do any of these 
routes have non-copyrighted local names?


On April 4, 2015 11:40:53 AM CDT, stevea  wrote:
> >>>exceptions, I believe the GR issue is still unsolved).
> >>
> >>Yes, all of that is fair game.  Though I don't know what "the GR 
> >>issue" is, and ask you to please clarify.
> >
> >Sorry for the late answer, been on the road for two days and now are 
> >on a rather flaky network connection.  See 
> ><http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walking_Routes#France>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walking_Routes#France
> 
> >for a very short synopsis of the GR issue.
> 
> Thank you.  A quick GR synopsis:  hiking routes in France, even with 
> trailblazers marked on-the-ground (!), are under a restricted 
> copyright and cannot be OSM-entered.  Wow!  Our oft-quoted test "is 
> it on-the-ground-verifiable?" to determine whether data are 
> OSM-enterable is not as clear-cut as "yes or no?"
> 
> We need discussion, sometimes a Legal Team determinations, good will 
> and open hearts as we figure this all out.  Sometimes on a 
> case-by-case basis.  Not dogma, dig-in-our-heels zealotry.  That 
> isn't easy, so let's face that squarely and cut each other some slack 
> that while there may be friction, we won't burst into flame.
> 
> >>..  As "facts about the world," these data belong to us, and 
> >>when true, we can put them into OSM.  (Sometimes such data, like 
> >>airline routes, are inappropriate to put into OSM -- but that's 
> >>another topic).
> >>
> >I think where we differ is that I see OSM (not only) as a project 
> >that demonstrates (in practical use) what citizens can do with 
> >today's technology, in an area that just a couple of years back was 
> >completely controlled by government and industry.  If by doing so, 
> >more government data becomes freely available then that is a nice 
> >side effect, but not a primary goal.
> 
> Recall what made me start this thread:  I want to clean up/improve 
> crusty/wrong TIGER railway data.  THAT, in the instant case, is my 
> primary goal.  I assert, I believe 100% correctly, that the names of 
> long industrial things hundreds of km long are both "my business" and 
> "facts about the world" that "belong" to nobody in particular, but 
> rather everybody, and hence deserve to be in OSM as correct.  I'm not 
> necessarily doing an import, I'm better naming crusty/wrong data OSM 
> already has with facts about the world.  Yes, these happen to be 
> confirmed by data published by my employees (government agencies). 
> That's it.  Please don't conflate the process just outlined with 
> "government data becoming more freely available as a side effect" as 
> that is not what I just described nor is it what is happening here.
> 
> >I don't see it as a vehicle to promote any specific agenda outside 
> >of the relatively narrow goals of the project itself. In particular 
> >I don't see potentially impacting the primary goal of providing free 
> >(as in free of legal restrictions by third parties) geo data to 
> >everyone by becoming embrolied in legal fights just to prove a point.
> 
> I like proving points when it suits me (especially when I am right!) 
> but again, that's not what this is.  It is cleaning up old, wrong 
> data so they are correct, appropriate-to-be-in-OSM data (but only 
> when correct, and they are wrong now).
> 
> >It is my subjective impression is that we are just on the brink of 
> >the project being unworkable because our contributors are too bold 
> >in using third party sources -not- the other way around (and yes 
> >when I get back home I have to deal with removing months of work by 
> >a mapper together with the DWG because they were too bold).
> 
> I respectfully and strenuously disagree.  We still (and likely will) 
> continue to have some predictable and manageable problems with import 
> of data from third party sources, but we have procedures in place to 
> make imports and third party data sources (two different things, but 
> they do often overlap) better.  Emphasis on "manageable."  My turn to 
> ask:  How much of these problems are OUR FAULT?  The obvious answer 
> is "every last bit."  We need to educate people, train them and be 
> vigilant.  We do all of these things, but if we still have probl

Re: [Talk-us] USA Rail: Calling all OSM railfans! (especially in California)

[John F. Eldredge]

Note that there is a long tradition of encyclopedias, maps, and other 
copyrighted sources deliberately including some bogus "facts" as a way of 
detecting plagiarism. These bogus facts don't exist in real life, only in the 
copyrighted document, so having them show up in a competing document proves 
that copying took place.


On April 2, 2015 5:12:57 PM CDT, Simon Poole  wrote:
> Am 02.04.2015 um 05:20 schrieb Russ Nelson:
> > ...
> > April Fools! Yes, you can. There are many kinds of public domain
> maps
> > whose republication needs no license. For example, in the US all
> maps
> > published before the magic date, whatever year it is we're up to
> > now. Maps copyrighted but not renewed. Maps published without a
> > copyright before 1988. 
> Very true.
> 
> > Maps with insufficient creative content to be
> > copyrightable.
> 
> They may exist, but are you seriously saying that we (as in individual
> mappers and the OSM community as a whole) should make that
> determination?
> >
> > There are maps which are canonical sources of facts about the world,
> > such as a BNSF map naming subdivisions. No one can own a fact about
> > the world, because it's a fact. Just like you can't patent math.
> Same
> > idea. You can copyright a collection of facts. You can copyright the
> > arrangement of facts. You can copy the presentation of facts. But
> you
> > can't copyright the individual facts.
> >
> While is true that you can't own a fact in isolation, the problem is
> they are rarely presented in that form.
> 
> Up to now OSM has drawn the line in such a way that stuff that is
> signposted and is observable on the ground is fair game (with some
> exceptions, I believe the GR issue is still unsolved). If you are
> using
> a collection of facts, be it a list, a map, a file on a computer or
> whatever, we have to now always taken the, fairly high ground,
> position
> that you either need explicit permission (by agreement, licence or
> similar) or that the use of the source is clearly not subject to
> copyright any longer. Forgetting about other rights, regulations etc
> that may exist for the purpose of this discussion.
> 
> What you seem to be saying in your above statement, followed by
> stevea's
> battle call to actually do so,  that wholesale extraction of facts
> from
> any source is unproblematic and is something that can be done without
> further consideration and the net result can be used in OSM globally
> with no expectation of problems. BTW you live in the country of
> software
> patents which -is- essentially patenting math.
> 
> Alas I suspect you are kidding yourself in a big way.
> 
> Simon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[John F. Eldredge]

I will have to look into the details to say for sure.

--
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drive out hate; only love can do that." Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.




On March 17, 2015 4:29:34 PM Paul Johnson  wrote:


On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:18 PM, John F. Eldredge 
wrote:

>   In some cases, these "hamlets" may be separate legal entities, even
> though surrounded by the city.  For example, Davidson County, Tennessee,
> and the city of Nashville merged in 1963 into a shared Metropolitan
> government.
>
However, six smaller municipalities within the county chose to keep partial
> autonomy. Growth of Nashville means that only road signs show that you have
> crossed over into these municipalities, but they maintain their own police
> forces.
>
 So, kinda like NYC and the boroughs?  Or more on par with, say, Metro
Oregon <http://www.oregonmetro.gov/>?  Or is both somehow a thing that
exists?



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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[John F. Eldredge]

In some cases, these "hamlets" may be separate legal entities, even though 
surrounded by the city.  For example, Davidson County, Tennessee, and the 
city of Nashville merged in 1963 into a shared Metropolitan government. 
However, six smaller municipalities within the county chose to keep partial 
autonomy. Growth of Nashville means that only road signs show that you have 
crossed over into these municipalities, but they maintain their own police 
forces.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.




On March 17, 2015 4:25:51 AM Paul Johnson  wrote:


On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 7:44 PM, Alex Barth  wrote:

> What do people think about how to properly retag place=hamlet in US urban
> areas?
>
> My colleague Eliane rendered out a map of all hamlets in urban areas in
> the US:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541
>
> I just posted how we could fix this:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541#comment29931
>

I'm in favor of a bulk edit for US hamlets within city boundaries to be
retagged as place=neighbourhood



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Re: [Talk-us] Wählen / Voting - Sanitary Dump Station

[John F. Eldredge]

Are there any rendering packages that can be set to render private objects 
for only a preset list of operator tag values? So, if an association of 
recreational vehicle owners has waste disposal stations only for registered 
users, a map generated by that association could show dump stations open to 
the general public, plus dump stations open to their members, while not 
showing dump stations open only to members of competing organizations?


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.




On March 17, 2015 3:36:22 AM Paul Johnson  wrote:


On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 3:13 AM, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:
>
> A caravan site might have 200 private hookups. We don't want the hookups
> to be rendered at the same level as the central dump station.
> Backyard dump stations should render even less prominently, if they are
> even mapped at all.
>

Let's not forget that tagging isn't the renderer.  If a renderer can't dim
or hide access=private on such a POI when it's not desirable to display a
private sanidump, it's the renderer, not the tagging, that's broken.



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Re: [Talk-us] Tagging addresses on area's

[John F. Eldredge]

On February 4, 2015 10:25:02 PM CST, Greg Morgan  wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Darrell Fuhriman 
> wrote:
> > It seems to be addr:unit, though it’s not widely used. It’s what
> I’ve been
> > using, though.
> >
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr:unit
> >
> > d.
> > On Feb 3, 2015, at 12:28, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> >
> > What's the correct tag for unit number, anyway?  This is driving me
> insane
> > since it's making it impossible to complete mapping the caravan site
> I live
> 
> I punted.  When Josm added a preset that included addr:flats, then I
> started using that tag.  Right or wrong I figured most of the other
> tags are Euro-English coloured, so to speak, that it did not mater if
> I used addr:flats verses addr:unit. __

addr:flats works if you are talking about flats, but doesn't fit other 
scenarios, such as suites in an office building.

-- 
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out hate: only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.


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Re: [Talk-us] Tagging addresses on area's

[John F. Eldredge]

On February 3, 2015 2:39:42 PM CST, Clifford Snow  
wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 12:37 PM, Paul Johnson 
> wrote:
> 
> > Wonder if we could get this added to the address presets, as this
> (at
> > least for the US) is a pretty big deal between office towers,
> apartment
> > buildings, trailer parks, and almost every other situation where you
> have
> > multiple tenants on the same cadastre lot...
> 
> 
> +1
> 
> 
> -- 
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Sounds like a good idea to me.

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out hate: only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Re: [Talk-us] Bike route relation issues

[John F. Eldredge]

By contrast, I am not aware of any Interstate highways in the southeast USA 
that allow bicycles. From my experience, every entrance ramp has signs 
forbidding non-motorized traffic and mopeds.


--
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"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On January 11, 2015 8:10:04 PM stevea  wrote:


>On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 1:54 PM, stevea
><<mailto:stevea...@softworkers.com>stevea...@softworkers.com> wrote:
>
>I do not agree:  again, I find no evidence (from the Oregon DOT map)
>that bicycles are explicitly designated "legal" on I-5.  It may be
>the case that explicit statute specifies bicycles are allowed on I-5
>in Oregon, but this map does not explicitly do so.  Again, please
>note that no specific "bike routes" are designated on that map,
>either.  It simply displays some highways as Interstates and some
>highways as containing wide shoulders or narrow shoulders.  While
>not complaining about Oregon's DOT helping bicyclists better
>understand where they might or might not ride a bicycle in that
>state, I characterize these map data as "early" or "underdeveloped"
>w.r.t. helpful "bicycle routing" by a DOT.
>
>
>Oregon and Washington allow all modes on all routes unless otherwise
>posted.  They have to explicitly sign exclusions, and they do.
>Here's the list for Oregon
>
><http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/BIKEPED/docs/freeway_ban.pdf>http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/BIKEPED/docs/freeway_ban.pdf
>
>
>And Washington:
>
><http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/bike/closed.htm>http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/bike/closed.htm

My previous post was California centric, going too far assuming for
other states.  (And fifty-at-a-time only in certain circumstances).

A starting place (properly placed in the locus of each state, with
perspective as a router might parse logic and build a routing set...)
is the following:

For 100% of ways with tag highway, set bicycle legality_status =
"legal."  (This keeps "everything still in the running.")  Now, apply
a per-state rule (could be a table lookup, could be a smarter data
record):

With both Washington and Oregon:
 exclude from our data set ways where helpful OSMers have tagged
"bicycle=no"

With California:
 exclude from our data set ways tagged highway=motorway,
 add to the set cycleways and highways tagged bicycle=yes.

We are right in the middle of "fifty ways of calculating a set."
Those target objects might be elements of a bicycle route.  As we get
the tags right (critical, on the data and "at the bottom") we must
also treat the rules of what we seek from those data as critical, too
(from the top, down).  It's reaching across and shaking hands with a
protocol, or a stack of protocols.  It's data, syntax and semantics.
When the sentence is grammatical (tags are correct for a parser), it
clicks into place with the correct answer (renders as we wish).

For the most part, we get it right.  But we do need to understand the
whole stack of what we do every once in a while, and pointing out
"data in California, treat like this, data in Oregon, Washington...,
treat like that..." is helpful to remember.  Can we get to a place
where everybody can do things (tag) "just right for them" and have it
always work (render), everywhere every time?  M, not without
documentation and perhaps conversations like this.

This is why documenting what we do and how we do it (and referring to
the documentation, and trying to apply it strictly, unless it breaks,
then perhaps talk about it and even improve it...) is so important.

Listen, build, improve, repeat.  Thank you (Paul, for your specific
answer, as well as others for participating).

SteveA
California


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Re: [Talk-us] Directional suffixes on roads: yes or no?

[John F. Eldredge]

On 11/29/2014 10:39 PM, Jack Burke wrote:

Howdy,

I have a question about how much effort should be put into adding
directional suffixes to road names.

Many counties around Atlanta have adopted directional suffixes for
roads, both in incorporated areas as well as outside city limits.
Usually all areas in the county use the same system, with directions
denoted NE, SE, NW and SW from some standard point, although some cities
tend to ignore the suffixes. Also, signage is inconsistent--some street
signs bear the suffix while others on the same street don't.

In most cases, the suffix is immaterial, and most people don't use it
anyway. Use of it or not won't affect directions most of the time,
although I know of a few specific cases where knowing the suffix can be
important in finding the right location (is your house 100 Concord Road
Southeast or Southwest?).

The majority of the Tiger data doesn't include the suffix.

So, how much should I worry about the missing suffixes? Should they be
included in the main name= tag? Or one of the other *name tags with the
unsuffixed name in the name= tag.

Because most people don't use the suffix, on some roads I've put the
with-suffix name in the name= tag and the unsuffixed one in the
short_name= tag, but I'm wondering if I should continue to bother.

-jack


--
Typos courtesy of fancy auto-spell technology.


An additional complication is ring-roads, which are likely to have XXX 
North transition into XXX East, etc.


--
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Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
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Re: [Talk-us] Can we get this user band?

[John F. Eldredge]

Rate-limiting sounds like a good idea.


On November 14, 2014 9:56:55 AM CST, Richard Welty  
wrote:
> On 11/14/14 10:34 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:
> > Could someone who knows Chinese check the content of the diary
> entries?
> >
> > By the way, I assume you mean "banned" (blocked from participation),
> 
> > rather than "band" (group of people). If the latter is what you
> meant, 
> > what do you want to get for the group of people?
> it's almost certainly link spam, but you're right, we should have
> a chinese speaking moderator review and handle this if that's at
> all possible, and talk-us is perhaps not the best place for such
> a request.
> 
> i'm not sure banning is very practical as they can always create
> another account to blog spam from. but maybe we can get some
> rate limiting built into the diary system as i can think of no valid
> reason to post 50 diary entries an hour.
> 
> richard
> 
> -- 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Can we get this user band?

[John F. Eldredge]

Could someone who knows Chinese check the content of the diary entries?

By the way, I assume you mean "banned" (blocked from participation), rather 
than "band" (group of people). If the latter is what you meant, what do you 
want to get for the group of people?


On November 14, 2014 9:20:18 AM CST, Mike Henson  wrote:
> can we get this user band? They have made 103 diary posts in the last
> 2
> hours.
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/%E6%9D%8E%E6%AF%85%E5%BC%BA
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] New I.D Feature

[John F. Eldredge]

A given Zip Code can potentially be in more than one US state, since they are 
based on delivery routes.


On November 6, 2014 10:32:19 PM CST, "Shawn K. Quinn"  
wrote:
>On Fri, 2014-11-07 at 04:17 +, Elliott Plack wrote:
>> Before the state showed up in iD, I had assumed someone could just
>> easily derive the US state from the postal code. 
>
>Usually, yes, but that introduces a dependence on third party data
>(USPS) that really should not be there. That, and it can be cumbersome.
>
>-- 
>Shawn K. Quinn 
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Prima Facie Speed Limits

[John F. Eldredge]

One street here in Nashville, TN, went for several years without any speed 
limit signs along its three-mile length. Then, one day, it suddenly had signs 
every half-mile or so. I suspect that someone probably argued their way out of 
a speeding ticket on the grounds that there weren't any posted limits. 
Tennessee doesn't have any default speed limits that I am aware of, although 
one can always be cited for "reckless driving".


On September 9, 2014 10:47:24 AM CDT, Martijn van Exel  wrote:
> I'm of the opinion that wherever the speed limit is just the default
> for
> that road class, it should not need to be posted at all. Any data user
> can
> then infer limits.
> 
> Martijn
> 
> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Tod Fitch  wrote:
> 
> > Thus far I've only applied the maxspeed tag to roads with a posted
> speed
> > limit. But here in California most residential roads are not posted,
> > instead there is a state wide prima facie limit:
> > http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22352.htm
> >
> > I am considering tagging the unsigned speed limit on residential
> roads in
> > my area and am thinking of tagging the authority of the speed with
> > "source:maxspeed=US:CA:residential" based on an extension of the
> type of
> > things I see at
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed
> >
> > How does this sound? Objections? Is there a better way?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Tod
> >
> >
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Re: [Talk-us] routing tags used by actual routing applications

[John F. Eldredge]

How would you classify two ruts, with some fist-sized rocks dumped into the 
worst-eroded points, leading to the base of a billboard next to a highway? 
Technically it is a service road, used when the billboard is maintained, but I 
tagged it as a track due to its condition. Only a high-ground-clearance, 
four-wheel drive vehicle would be able to use it. This is on public land, 
undeveloped except for a paved footpath on part of it, due to frequent flooding.


On July 3, 2014 11:37:30 AM CDT, Brad Neuhauser  
wrote:
> I think highway=service could be public or private, just a matter of
> if it
> is "used to access a certain building / facility" like Martin said.
> Some
> public examples could be road to a public parking lot, driveway in/out
> of
> fire station, road leading to a public works facility.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Kevin Broderick
> 
> wrote:
> 
> > Highway=service implies a private road, though; if a public road
> dead-ends
> > at a single building or facility, it should be =residential or
> > =unclassified, right?
> >
> > The tracktype= key is also not really applicable to many of the
> > unmaintained roads around here, at least as described on the wiki.
> The
> > description implies that a track is a continuum from a maintained
> roadway
> > to a virtually invisible path across a field. The unmaintained roads
> in
> > this part of the country are usually old roadways that were
> established
> > before modern engineering standards; many of them go up and down the
> fall
> > line and have waterbars, washouts, rock ledges, or all of the above.
> For
> > example:
> >
> >
> >
> https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t31.0-8/1267970_716253801218_1989759584_o.jpg
> >
> >
> https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/1266483_716253736348_406630391_o.jpg
> >
> >
> https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/t31.0-8/1264969_716254075668_897288595_o.jpg
> >
> >
> https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/10317804_767096626788_7562385056086790114_o.jpg
> >
> > All of these photos are unmaintained roads in Vermont. The last one
> is
> > probably reasonable for a high-clearance, AWD car (e.g. Subaru) in
> the
> > hands of a competent driver, and definitely should be passable by a
> skilled
> > driver in a 4x4 pickup or Jeep. The other three would probably
> require a
> > modified 4x4 and the right skillset. They are also legal
> right-of-ways, so
> > clearly access=yes for all vehicle types (even though I wouldn't
> want to
> > get routed down one of those unknowingly).
> >
> > I've been using the smoothness key to provide additional data on
> such
> > tracks, which I realize is a universally agreed solution, but it's
> the best
> > one I've found to date; I'd be open to further suggestions.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 11:55 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
> > dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> 2014-07-03 17:36 GMT+02:00 Brad Neuhauser
> :
> >>
> >> Just trying to process this: wouldn't a tracktype 1 be tagged as
> >>> unclassified or residential anyway?  Or to ask a different way,
> assuming
> >>> that roads with houses should be tagged as residential, when
> should one tag
> >>> a sub-tertiary road as track vs. using unclassified?
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> You'd always tag it as unclassified, unless it is not a connection
> road
> >> and is used only for agricultural / forestry purposes. If it is not
> a
> >> connection road but used to access a certain building / facility,
> use
> >> service.
> >>
> >> E.g. this is clearly a track: http://binged.it/1odgrTZ
> >> or this: http://binged.it/1j0zEud
> >>
> >> in case of doubt I'd put unclassified ;-)
> >>
> >> cheers,
> >> Martin
> >>
> >> _______
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> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
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> > k...@kevinbroderick.com
> >
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Re: [Talk-us] Nominatim in CDP

[John F. Eldredge]

Yes, but one "postal city" commonly contains multiple "postal codes", so 
storing the postal city in the postal code tag represents a loss of detail.


On J,une 26, 2014 2:33:12 PM CDT, Richard Welty  wrote:
> On 6/26/14 3:20 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote:
> > Postal code usually means Zip code, or its non-USA equivalent, not
> city.
> this is one of those fussy points in US geocoding.
> 
> the zip code can be mapped to the postal "city", which is what is
> in everyone's addresses, and is what i think most us residents
> initially expect when typing an address into a search box.
> 
> the underlying point being that there isn't one true geocoder,
> it depends entirely on what you're trying to accomplish. something
> driven by postal codes/addresses can be correct for many
> applications, while being wrong for others.
> 
> to my mind the fact that we keep going in circles about this
> is evidence that we're thinking about the problem the wrong way.
> 
> richard

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Re: [Talk-us] Nominatim in CDP

[John F. Eldredge]

Postal code usually means Zip code, or its non-USA equivalent, not city.


On June 25, 2014 7:20:55 AM CDT, Martin Koppenhoefer  
wrote:
> 2014-06-25 12:37 GMT+02:00 Minh Nguyen :
> 
> > "Postal cities" aren't currently tagged as areas, only tag values on
> > individual POIs and buildings.
> 
> 
> 
> there is the key "postal_code" to be used on areas (and streets), I am
> not
> sure if Nominatim evaluates it, but could be.
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Apostal_code
> 
> cheers,
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Nominatim in CDP

[John F. Eldredge]

Postal code usually means Zip code, or its non-USA equivalent, not city.


On June 25, 2014 7:20:55 AM CDT, Martin Koppenhoefer  
wrote:
> 2014-06-25 12:37 GMT+02:00 Minh Nguyen :
> 
> > "Postal cities" aren't currently tagged as areas, only tag values on
> > individual POIs and buildings.
> 
> 
> 
> there is the key "postal_code" to be used on areas (and streets), I am
> not
> sure if Nominatim evaluates it, but could be.
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Apostal_code
> 
> cheers,
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths

[John F. Eldredge]

Here in Nashville TN, sidewalks in some business districts alternate every few 
yards between having concrete extend all of the way to the curb, and having 
planted strips with grass, flowers, and small trees between the sidewalk and 
the curb. It would be rather tedious to have the tagging have to alternate 
between sidewalk and footway every few yards.


On April 30, 2014 11:19:31 PM CDT, Russ Nelson  wrote:
> Kai Krueger writes:
>  > But in the US (at least in suburbia), the sidewalks are often much
>  > more detached from the road with wide grass strips between
>  > them. They also sometimes aren't entirely parallel to the road.
> 
> Indeed. In Potsdam, NY, we get enough snow that we need those wide
> grass strips to plow the snow onto. But they're not practical in some
> places, so the sidewalk can come close to the road in places. It's
> still a sidewalk, though, and not a "way" of its own.
> 
> There is not a wonderful solution for how do map pedestrian routing
> when it differs from road-associated routing.

-- 
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Re: [Talk-us] historic schools (amenity=school; name= * (historical)

[John F. Eldredge]

We need to be able to distinguish between the object no longer being present, 
and the object still being present but its usage having changed.  If it is 
likely to be of historical and/or landmark interest, tagging both the 
historical name and current name is useful.



 Original Message 
From: Serge Wroclawski 
Sent: March 4, 2014 8:09:01 AM CST
To: Theodin 
Cc: Open Street Map Talk-US 
Subject: Re: [Talk-us] historic schools (amenity=school; name= * (historical)

All gnis objects that are "(historical)" are no longer present and
should be removed.

- Serge

On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 5:38 AM, Theodin  wrote:
> Hi fellow mappers,
>
> While doing some TIGER cleanup, I often stumble over historical schools 
> tagged as:
> amenity=school
> name=some small town school (historical)
>
> which are rendered on the map with their name. Are there any ideas for a 
> better tagging as most of
> them (all?) arent really schools any more.
> I tagged some as
> historic=school
> which was in the database 80 times. Any better ideas?
>
> Regards,
> Theodin
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Merging a GNIS node with a TIGER way - for a town

[John F. Eldredge]

On February 1, 2014 7:04:43 PM CST, Richard Welty  
wrote:
> On 2/1/14 3:59 PM, Sebastian Arcus wrote:
> >
> > I have some trouble though with the notion of "village" in the US.
> > Looking back to what I know about US (which could be partially
> wrong),
> > I'm not sure they really have the true notion of "village" as per
> many
> > other places in the world. In the US, it always seemed to be about
> > isolated farms, and towns. Both from a size point of view, but most
> > importantly from a functional point of view. In Europe and other
> parts
> > of the world, the notion of village is steeped in a long history of
> a
> > group of people working the land, and many times being subject to
> the
> > authority of one local land owner. All of that doesn't really exist
> in
> > the US, if my knowledge serves me right. Even the smallest of
> > settlements (bigger than a farm) seemed to have started in the US
> > around a group of facilities, such as shops, entertainment venues,
> > trading facilities etc. - which would directly correspond
> functionally
> > to a town.
> Village is something that will vary. in NY, a village is an
> incorporated
> governmental
> entity which is much smaller than a city. (all of what follows is NY
> specific, by the way).
> where as a county in NY (NYC excepted) is completely tiled by cities
> and
> towns, villages
> are mostly contained within towns (but some villages do cross town
> boundaries.)
> 
> in NY, Hamlet is the term used for random place names where there
> isn't
> a corresponding
> governmental entity.
> 
> richard
> 
> -- 
> rwe...@averillpark.net
>  Averill Park Networking - GIS & IT Consulting
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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The definitions vary widely, state by state.  In Virginia, a town or village 
may have its own local government, but is subordinate to the government of the 
county containing it.  A city in Virginia, by contrast, has a local government 
on the same level as a county government, and is not considered to be part of 
the county even if it is completely surrounded by the county.

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Re: [Talk-us] Tags to use for chain stores in the United States

[John F. Eldredge]

Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> 2013/12/11 Brad Neuhauser 
> 
> > Personally, I tag "big box" stores like Target, KMart, WalMart etc
> with
> > shop=department_store, just because that seems like the closest fit
> that
> > isn't too restrictive (they're much more than a supermarket, to my
> mind).
> >
> 
> 
> a supermarket can sell a lot of stuff that is not food and still
> remain a
> supermarket, e.g. the bigger ones might also sell clothing or some
> consumer
> electronics (tv, pc). A department_store has lots of stuff and lots of
> salesclerks serving you.
> 
> kmart vs.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/72294117@N03/7645650440/in/photolist-cDBXvj-dq7UY1-ePHTru-bzJeq-bzJiD-cLqWVb-cLqV7E-cLr1dJ-9HVd61-93H2Bi-fqvVSW-fqgRhp-fqgCZF-fqvSz9-fqgDvH-9XxowN-cDBZdU-cz73B1-8pPW7V-gvtUD5-gvtG83-7MJmWf-7MJoSQ-7MEupg-7MJuo7-7MJoKf-7MEpki-7MJrKW-7MEmRp-7MEmtr-7MEB4M-7MJtrd-7MJn5G-7MEBMa-7MEmAt-92tyfy-ePJ3xs-gvubH6-akA57y-ekk8vZ-cgQsed-7Zsd71-cXAMRY-cXAL4q-cXAHio-cXAJiQ-asWMnp-buguzF-bugtMt-c4vfy9-8m1Xv1
> 
> department stores:
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Central_Department_Store_ZUM_Sofia_20090406_007.JPG
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Harrods%27_Egyptian_room.JPG
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Paris_Lafayette_inside.jpg
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KaDeWe_Deli.JPG
> 
> generally a department_store has more of the pricier stuff or at least
> tries not to appear too cheap, while a supermarket tries the opposite:
> appear as cheap as possible. Also a supermarket will have a huge
> parking in
> front of it, while a department store will be found in the city center
> and
> will have an underground or parking deck.
> 
> For those you name I think they would be better classified as
> supermarkets.
> 
> cheers,
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> 
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However, in common usage, supermarket refers to a store where the majority of 
merchandise sold is food.  The big-box stores typically sell some food, but the 
majority of the merchandise is not food.

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Re: [Talk-us] [josm-dev] Relation editor support for north/south and east/west similar to forward/backward

[John F. Eldredge]

Tod Fitch  wrote:
> On Tue, November 26, 2013 1:57 pm, Ian Dees wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Florian Lohoff  wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 12:30:25PM -0700, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> >> > Hi all,
> >> >
> >> > I'm new to this list so please bear with me.
> >> > The relation editor currently only parses 'forward' and
> 'backward'
> >> > roles when considering the visual representation in the rightmost
> >> > column. In the United States, north/south and east/west are very
> >> > common as member roles for road routes, because that is how they
> are
> >> > officially signposted.
> >>
> >> I would be very careful in using this. Is this really "south" e.g.
> >> 180° ? Or is it more like 99° ? Or 269° ?
> >>
> >> Most streets are not strictly on the 90° raster and signposts are
> >> only rough directions.
> >>
> >> Addings this to OSM might make it much more difficult for Data
> Consumers
> >> to process and interpret data.
> >
> >
> > No, these aren't compass directions. They're the directionality of
> the
> > road. For example, this way is part of the I-94 interstate going
> west, but
> > a compass in a car driving on it would tell the viewer they were
> pointing
> > north:
> >
> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/39372612
> 
> Perhaps images like these, found nearly at random on the web, will
> illustrate typical motorway and highway marking in the US.
> 
> http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4030/5145458837_d192798a62_o.jpg
> http://www.interstate80.info/i80_nevada_lettsign.jpg
> 
> Road directionality is based on the total length of the highway.
> So if the interstate (motorway) is 3000km long and generally
> more east/west than north/south it will have east/west markings
> on it even in areas where it is going north/south or even
> reversing itself for a short distance and going west/east.
> 
> Marking the directionality in the relation would make it easier
> for creating navigation instructions that match what the driver
> sees on the ground (e.g. "turn left on to ramp for I-10 west").
> 
> Tod
> 
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Adding to the confusion, you have two conflicting schemes in use in the USA.  
The Interstate highways are referred to as East/West/North/South according to 
the direction a particular side of the highway is going, so that I-40 W and 
I-40 E are opposing sides of a divided highway.  You also have compass-point 
letters used to distinguish between branches of the same route.  For example, 
US 31 runs north/south.  A portion of it branches off as US 31W, which runs 
roughly parallel, some miles westward of US 31, and eventually merges back into 
it.

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Re: [Talk-us] Railroads and Railroads (Historic)

[John F. Eldredge]

On 11/10/2013 03:30 PM, nathan proudfoot wrote:

Hello got some questions about Railroads,
I have a passion for the preservation of railroads and the maps 
surrounding them.  I both update current map data with a line per each 
track.  Track is in most cases two rails attached by a sleeper or tie. 
I have over 10,000 edits over on GMM and under 4,000 with OSM.


I am mostly coming to ask about historic railroads and how to map them.
In my area we have lots of rail trails, these trails mostly have been 
mapped by

bicycle=yes
foot=yes
highway=cycleway
horse=yes
name=John Wayne Pioneer Trail
note=railway=abandoned indicates a rail-trail
old_railway_operator=Milwaukee
railway=abandoned
Ect..

Is this the way that we should be mapping these as there are historic 
attributes.

For instance we could add.
historic=ruins
ruins=railroad

or we could remove railway=abandoned
but in this case the railroad is rail banked and could be brought out 
of abandoned status.


We have other routes in the state that are not rail banked and are 
historic and are not seen as abandoned.


 Best Regards,
Nathan Proudfoot
email: n.pf...@gmail.com <mailto:n.pf...@gmail.com>

We probably need a value such as railway=inactive for routes that are 
not in use, but still have the rails in place.  The only problem is 
that, if someone erroneously tags an active but little-used route as 
inactive, this could lead to an accident if someone went hiking or 
rail-biking on the route.


--
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Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
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Re: [Talk-us] Public Labs/balloon mapping?

[John F. Eldredge]

Ian McEwen  wrote:
> Hi; I've been recently looking around http://publiclab.org/,
> especially
> at their tools for doing ground-tethered balloon and kite mapping
> (http://publiclab.org/wiki/balloon-mapping). The bulk of the prose on
> the site seems to be activism-oriented -- documenting the BP oil
> spill,
> Occupy encampments, etc. As you might guess I'm more interested in the
> potential to use this for OSM, but stories of others doing that seem
> to
> be sparse.
> 
> Has anyone here used balloon mapping or these tools (or similar ones)
> who can share experience, pitfalls, etc.?
> 
> --
> Ian McEwen
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Friends of friends have done high-altitude balloon photography using weather 
balloons.  This isn't quite the same thing as what you are planning, but I will 
try to find their contact details.  One difficulty of using such photos for 
mapping, it seems to me, will be determining the downward angle at which the 
photos were taken, so as to calculate the perspective.

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Re: [Talk-us] Freeway directions

[John F. Eldredge]

Ian Dees  wrote:
> The direction of a US Interstate isn't necessarily the compass
> direction of
> the road.
> 
> For example, this chunk of I-94 is "facing" south, but it's still
> eastbound
> I-94.
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/33098899
> 
> 
> On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Richard Welty
> wrote:
> 
> > On 10/17/13 1:52 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> > > The use case would be to distinguish between onramps in routing
> and
> > > guidance. The onramp entrances can be close together, so it helps
> > > tremendously if you can say 'turn right onto Interstate 215 West'
> > > instead of just 'turn right onto Interstate 215'.
> > >
> > hmmm. we're using exit_to (i think) for off ramps, maybe we need
> > entrance_to for on ramps
> >
> > the value would be more or less exactly the text visible on the
> > signage.
> >
> > richard
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> 
> 
> 
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Another example would be Interstate 24.  It nominally runs East/West, but the 
actual alignment is Southeast/Northwest.

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Re: [Talk-us] Complex intersection mapping

[John F. Eldredge]

Richard Welty  wrote:
> On 10/14/13 1:52 PM, Ian Dees wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 14, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Martijn van Exel
> > mailto:marti...@telenav.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Here at Telenav we have been looking at complex intersections
> and we
> > have set about editing some of these intersections in a way we
> feel
> > represents the situation on the ground better than their
> original
> > state, and because of that, works better for us. We have
> received some
> > feedback on our edits so we wanted to take a step back and see
> what we
> > (as the OSM community) think is the preferred way to map these
> > intersections.
> >
> > So what are we talking about? Intersections like this one, where
> one
> > or more dual carriageways come together at an at-grade
> intersection:
> >
> >
> https://www.evernote.com/shard/s9/sh/6438c196-bb92-4f66-81dc-9b75186286ba/0e8f07ff527c6a85c0dec426b9b79f1e
> >
> > One of my colleagues at Telenav has remapped this intersection
> as
> > follows:
> >
> >
> https://www.evernote.com/shard/s9/sh/3491f1fe-6afa-4571-bc43-7cb31c9c2625/9dd47d1445fdcf03d3f0bbd93b8e0f92
> >
> >
> > I've seen more examples of your "after" photo than the "before" in
> my
> > mapping. I create them by default when dual carriageways intersect.
> >
> > +1 you're doing the right thing.
> >
> i consider the "after" a better approach as well.
> 
> richard
> 
> 
> 
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I agree that the second version is much better.

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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Postal Code Extract

[John F. Eldredge]

You may want to double-check with the Post Office, to find out whether there is 
the possibility that there may legitimately be outliers in some cases.  I don't 
think the US Post Office guarantees that zip codes will always define a single 
polygon with no outliers.


Clifford Snow  wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Eric Fischer  wrote:
> 
> > Or if you just want the US zip code polygons and don't care if you
> get
> > them from OSM or somewhere else, you could just download the
> shapefile of
> > Census Zip Code Tabulation Areas from
> > http://www2.census.gov/geo/tiger/TIGER2013/ZCTA5/
> >
> 
> 
> It's the OSM data I'm after. I'd like to do a test to make sure that
> there
> are no outliers. I would expect that I should be able to construct a
> polygon from zip codes. If not, then there it might mean an import
> problem.
> I'm going to try Mike's suggestion of increasing the timeout. I did
> increase it, but not as much as suggested.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Clifford
> 
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us

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John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness: 
only light can do that.  Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."  
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Re: [Talk-us] Shields are up!

[John F. Eldredge]

Sorry, that was supposed to say "imagining", not "imaging".

"John F. Eldredge"  wrote:
> Does anyone else besides me keep imaging Pavel Chekov (from
> original-series Star Trek) announcing "shields are up" with a heavy
> Russian accent?
> 
> 
> Paul Johnson  wrote:
> > Strangely, the Oklahoma Turnpikes that have relations aren't showing
> > up on
> > the osm.us tile server.
> > 
> > 
> > On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 1:55 AM, James Mast
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > In a previous e-mail to the list, he said that relations for
> > "Turnpikes"
> > > were based off the name tag for the relation, while the ones that
> > had
> > > numbers shields were based off the "network + ref" tags in the
> > relations
> > > avoiding the name tag entirely.
> > >
> > > -James
> > >
> > > --
> > > From: lordsu...@gmail.com
> > > Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 23:30:24 -0500
> > > To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > > Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Shields are up!
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 7:44 PM, James Mast
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm curious, but has a solution been found for the problem with
> the
> > PA
> > > Turnpike because of having to split up the ways into separate ones
> > for each
> > > direction because of the relation getting close to the "1000 way"
> > limit
> > > we've imposed?
> > >
> > > I still think that using the "super" relation I created to tie the
> > route
> > > together could be used instead for applying the shields over the
> > separate
> > > ways for each direction.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm not sure why/how directional relations would be a problem; I
> > have the
> > > signed part of I-22 labeled with separate east/west relations yet
> > there
> > > aren't 2x the number of I-22 shields as there are US 78 shields
> > (which is a
> > > single relation).
> > >
> > >
> >
> http://tile.openstreetmap.us/osmus_shields/preview.html#13/33.6875/-87.0588
> > >
> > > (For routing applications we probably want directional relations
> > anyway,
> > > since directional heuristics based on geography aren't always
> right
> > in
> > > terms of the signed/"logical" route direction.)
> > >
> > >
> > > Chris
> > > --
> > > Chris Lawrence 
> > >
> > > Website: http://www.cnlawrence.com/
> > >
> > > ___ Talk-us mailing
> list
> > > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Talk-us mailing list
> > > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> >
> 
> > 
> > ___
> > Talk-us mailing list
> > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> 
> -- 
> John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
> "Darkness cannot drive out darkness: 
> only light can do that.  Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do
> that."  -- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness: 
only light can do that.  Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."  
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Re: [Talk-us] Shields are up!

[John F. Eldredge]

Does anyone else besides me keep imaging Pavel Chekov (from original-series 
Star Trek) announcing "shields are up" with a heavy Russian accent?


Paul Johnson  wrote:
> Strangely, the Oklahoma Turnpikes that have relations aren't showing
> up on
> the osm.us tile server.
> 
> 
> On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 1:55 AM, James Mast
> wrote:
> 
> > In a previous e-mail to the list, he said that relations for
> "Turnpikes"
> > were based off the name tag for the relation, while the ones that
> had
> > numbers shields were based off the "network + ref" tags in the
> relations
> > avoiding the name tag entirely.
> >
> > -James
> >
> > --
> > From: lordsu...@gmail.com
> > Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2013 23:30:24 -0500
> > To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Shields are up!
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 5, 2013 at 7:44 PM, James Mast
> wrote:
> >
> > I'm curious, but has a solution been found for the problem with the
> PA
> > Turnpike because of having to split up the ways into separate ones
> for each
> > direction because of the relation getting close to the "1000 way"
> limit
> > we've imposed?
> >
> > I still think that using the "super" relation I created to tie the
> route
> > together could be used instead for applying the shields over the
> separate
> > ways for each direction.
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure why/how directional relations would be a problem; I
> have the
> > signed part of I-22 labeled with separate east/west relations yet
> there
> > aren't 2x the number of I-22 shields as there are US 78 shields
> (which is a
> > single relation).
> >
> >
> http://tile.openstreetmap.us/osmus_shields/preview.html#13/33.6875/-87.0588
> >
> > (For routing applications we probably want directional relations
> anyway,
> > since directional heuristics based on geography aren't always right
> in
> > terms of the signed/"logical" route direction.)
> >
> >
> > Chris
> > --
> > Chris Lawrence 
> >
> > Website: http://www.cnlawrence.com/
> >
> > ___ Talk-us mailing list
> > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> >
> > ___
> > Talk-us mailing list
> > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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only light can do that.  Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."  
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Re: [Talk-us] Cemeteries in OSM?

[John F. Eldredge]

When you start getting to the level of information not actually on the grave 
marker, not to mention information about people known to be buried in the 
cemetery, but whose grave markers are missing or no longer legible, it makes 
sense to have this information in a separate database rather than in OSM 
itself.  I am on the board of a small historical society that maintains an old 
cemetery.  Many of the graves once had cypress-wood markers, as the local stone 
doesn't weather well, and marble or metal markers were expensive. An 
early-twentieth-century grass fire destroyed the wooden markers, so we now 
don't know exactly whom is in the majority of the graves.


Mike N  wrote:
> On 7/29/2013 10:49 AM, Thomas Colson wrote:
> > _Is this even an appropriate use of OSM?_ I have a cemetery mapping
> >   project with LOTS of good data, pondering the best way to publish
> it….
> 
>  I would say - yes.  To me the considerations lie in how much data to 
> include: Everything on the stone?   Local information about the
> person? 
>   Additional knowledge from historians and sextons?
> 
> On a related note, this subject came up for me a few weeks ago.  Mark 
> Gray had given a lightning talk on this subject at SOTM US 2010 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/State_Of_The_Map_U.S._2010 .  I was
> 
> thinking of starting with a single waypoint, which can be very
> accurate 
> after multiple averaging, multiple readings at different times of day,
> 
> etc.   Then using a rig for highly accurate headstone location
> readings 
> relative to the reference point, which could be converted to
> GeoLocation 
> coordinates.I couldn't find any simple, low cost way to do this
> with 
> a quick Internet search.   Are there Smartphone apps that can do this 
> with the help of their accelerometer?  Some other type of hardware?
> 
> ___
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think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria


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Re: [Talk-us] [Imports-us] Releasing my data into Public Domain

[John F. Eldredge]

Neither one of the references you cited states that a private individual cannot 
give up their copyright and thus release a work into the public domain.


Josh Doe  wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Paul Norman  wrote:
> 
> > Neither of those is public domain. I know for individuals there can
> be
> > issues releasing data into the public domain, but if a government’s
> lawyers
> > feel their data is public domain, I generally just take them at
> their word.
> >
> > If the data is public domain then a simple statement that the data
> is
> > public domain should be enough. With PD you’re not actually
> licensing the
> > data, you’re stating that it’s not covered by copyright and there
> aren’t
> > any exclusive rights that need licensing.
> >
> 
> Sadly it's not that simple. Public domain can only be works of the US
> federal government (for use within the US specifically), or where
> copyright
> has expired, and I'm sure a few other edge cases. Whether you like it
> or
> not, in the US, unless you're an employee of the US federal
> government, you
> can't release works into the public domain. That's what CC0 is for.
> Read
> more here:
> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/categories.html#PublicDomainSoftware
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain_software
> 
> -Josh
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

[John F. Eldredge]

In Nashville, TN, where I live, most of the city's growth has been since World 
War II, and hence suburban in nature.  Some subdivisions have permanent signs, 
some don't.   Some have a discernable tree structure, some have a loose grid, a 
few areas have a rectilinear grid.  Plus, some areas combine later development 
with what used to be small towns, swallowed up as the city expanded.  Some 
areas have names picked by a modern developer, some are named after these old 
towns, and at least one area is named after a particular pre-Civil-War mansion 
that, for decades, was the largest house in the neighborhood.  So, the 
neighborhood naming scheme is best described as "all of the above".


Minh Nguyen  wrote:

> I've driven all over Cincinnati's northeastern suburbs collecting 
> subdivision names, the ones that adorn signs and gates at subdivision 
> entrances. I used to hear school bus drivers use the same names when 
> communicating their progress over the radio. These subdivisions are
> only 
> meaning of "neighborhood" that makes sense in an area with endless
> sprawl.
> 
> Upon returning to my armchair, I trace individual landuse=residential 
> polygons for each of these subdivisions. It's easy to discern the 
> boundaries because most subdivisions aren't connected. Where they are,
> 
> one can easily spot where sidewalks end, one cookie cutter
> architecture 
> gives way to another, or the pavement quality changes -- some cities 
> repave one whole subdivision at a time.
> 

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [Talk-us] Parking rendering

[John F. Eldredge]

Makes sense to me.  Private parking and parking accessible to the public should 
certainly be tagged and rendered differently.  I would not be surprised if some 
people, trying to use an OSM map to find a place to park, and instead being 
directed again and again to parking that turned out to be off-limits, ended up 
giving up on the use of OSM altogether.


Steven Johnson  wrote:
> To amplify what Serge said about Washington, no distinction was made
> for
> the behind-the-house, 1-2 vehicle private space versus large public
> lots.
> So if you were to look at the WashDC map, you'd be misled into
> thinking
> there is parking everywhere! I rather like the suggestion of
> addressing it
> through capacity, public/private, and access. Scale-dependent display
> would
> help, as well.
> 
> -- SEJ
> -- twitter: @geomantic
> -- skype: sejohnson8
> 
> There are two types of people in the world. Those that can extrapolate
> from
> incomplete data.
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:09 AM, Martijn van Exel 
> wrote:
> 
> > I agree this should ideally be addressed at the data level. If all
> parking
> > nodes had some capacity / access information, the renderer could
> prioritize
> > for larger public parking when zooming out, for example. And
> entering every
> > strip of street parking spots as parking in OSM does not make sense
> to me.
> >
> > As it is, it's probably better to have mappers being exposed to this
> > 'over-parking' in some areas, so that we actually have this
> discussion.
> > Whether that exposure should be on the main map or on a separate
> data
> > dashboard is a non-issue until we actually have these data
> dashboards ;)
> >
> > Martijn
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 7:25 AM, Serge Wroclawski
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 4:12 PM, Nathan Mills 
> wrote:
> >> > (I switched to talk-us for this reply because it doesn't touch on
> >> import issues)
> >> >
> >> > I don't think it's so much a bug in the stylesheet as much as a
> bug in
> >> the world we're trying to map. Many cities simply have excessive
> amounts of
> >> parking and that shows up on the map.
> >>
> >> This is partially (though not entirely) a US "problem", and while
> we
> >> can argue the issues around parking in general, the map clutter is
> due
> >> to a combination of rendering issues and other problems.
> >>
> >> For example, in the Washington, DC area, there are many small,
> narrow
> >> parking areas which are in reality just street parking that has
> been
> >> improperly imported.
> >>
> >> I suspect that if we examine many areas where parking is so
> cluttered,
> >> we will find some combination of rendering issues and data issues.
> >>
> >> The data issues will need addressing, then the rendering problems
> are
> >> likely going to be fairly solvable.
> >>
> >> - Serge
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Talk-us mailing list
> >> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Martijn van Exel
> > http://oegeo.wordpress.com/
> > http://openstreetmap.us/
> >
> > ___
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> > Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

[John F. Eldredge]

It might be best to allow neighborhoods to be either polygons or points.  Some 
neighborhoods have a customary boundary line, such as a particular street or 
waterway.  Some are legally defined.  Some just represent an approximate 
location, meaning that a point will work better than a polygon.  In some cases, 
there may be more than one traditional name for an area, with slightly 
different connotations (for example, one term may refer to a very limited area, 
while another covers a broader area, including the small neighborhood mentioned 
above).



Clifford Snow  wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 5:47 PM, william skora
> wrote:
> 
> > Given the subjective, fluid nature of neighborhoods - especially
> > boundaries - where one neighborhood ends and one begins - may change
> from
> > person to person, they are best represented as a single node in the
> area
> > where there is greatest consensus that the neighborhood is located.
> This
> > can be very roughly estimated by OSM mappers who locally live in or
> near
> > the area.
> >
> 
> One reason for including boundaries is querying to determine what
> exists in
> a neighborhood. Another is to see the result from a search using
> nominatim.
> A single node doesn't really tell much of a story, while a boundary
> give a
> better scope of the neighborhood. It might be more compelling for 3rd
> parties to use our information if we included the boundaries. They in
> turn
> give us greater visibility. And while the boundaries may not be exact,
> people can always change them!
> 
> 
> -- 
> Clifford
> 
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______
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Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

[John F. Eldredge]

My house is technically in a subdivision named Murray Heights, but I have only 
seen that name on the deed, and on maps.  In the 21 years I have lived here, I 
have never heard anyone use that name.  The subdivision was built in the late 
1950s, and, unlike some other local subdivisions, there aren't any permanent 
signs in place as you enter the subdivision.

According to the post office, my house is in the Woodbine postal district, 
named after a small town that was subsequently swallowed up by the expansion of 
Nashville.  However, when people refer to the Woodbine area, they usually mean 
the approximate area of the old town, several miles from my house.

I usually refer to my neighborhood as Antioch, the name of another small town 
that has expanded outward, even though the official border of Antioch, 
according to the post office, is about 300 feet from my house.


Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 11/giu/2013, at 21:07, Mike N  wrote:
> >
> > > Often, I can't determine the subdivision boundary from either Bing
> or a
> > survey; I'd need to see an organization map which would be of
> questionable
> > license.
> >
> > or ask the people that live there, would that be feasible?
> 
> 
> Sometimes subdivisions map cleanly to neighborhoods.  But not always.
> 
> In the USA aspirational neighborhoods are common, if not the rule.  As
> a
> neighborhood gets trendy more and more people at the edges (and more
> and
> more Realtors) latch on to that name.
> 
> The Zillow data is a very rigid idea of what a neighborhood is.
> Walk three blocks away from "Noe Valley" and ask what neighborhood you
> are
> in,
> and you're likely to get four answers.  Capturing that diversity would
> produce a far more useful neighborhood guide than just importing
> Zillow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Neighborhoods / Zillow

[John F. Eldredge]

Note that, if not all of the subdivision has been developed as yet, the 
residents may not be entirely sure where the undeveloped subdivision land ends 
and other, adjoining, undeveloped land begins, so you might need to check with 
the company that is developing the subdivision.


Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/giu/2013, at 21:07, Mike N  wrote:
> 
> > Often, I can't determine the subdivision boundary from either Bing
> or a survey; I'd need to see an organization map which would be of
> questionable license.
> 
> 
> or ask the people that live there, would that be feasible?
> 
> cheers,
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] OSM Total Users

[John F. Eldredge]

I think he may also be wanting to know how many people are consuming map data 
without being registered with OSM.  Unfortunately, the only way I can see to 
get this estimate would be to contact all of the manufacturers of applications 
that use this data, whether for mobile apps, desktop apps, websites, etc., and 
then to try to guess how much these user bases overlap.


Rick Marshall  wrote:
> Hi Frederic,
> 
> Here is a link to the database statistics wiki page.  You have
> probably
> already been directed there, but just in case:
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Rick Marshall
> 
> Rick Marshall, PhD, GISP
> President
> Vertical GeoSolutions, Inc (VerticalGeo)
> 130 Sawgrass Ln
> O'Fallon, IL  62269
> (618) 670-4259
> rick.marsh...@verticalgeo.com
> http://www.verticalgeo.com
> http://www.culturescapes.net
> Vertically Thinking Blog: http://verticalgeo.wordpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jun 9, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Frederic Julien
> wrote:
> 
> > I'm looking for the estimated amount of total users of OSM (not just
> > registered users). I think I've seen some numbers before (300MM?).
> >
> > If you have a link to some wiki / post that's be great.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Frederic
> >
> > ___
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> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> >
> >
> 
> 
> --------
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Removing US Bicycle Route tags

[John F. Eldredge]

I agree with you.


Richard Welty  wrote:
>On 6/7/13 8:44 PM, Nathan Mills wrote:
>> If we're going for accuracy, corridor proposals should be mapped as a
>polygon. They are area features which may someday become linear.
>>
>> That said, I don't think that such early proposals belong in the
>database at all.
>>
>i think they can go in when they can be represented as a relation 
>containing
>connected ways, and not before that.
>
>richard
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Google maps source

[John F. Eldredge]

Any source should be double-checked in person, if possible.  Even aerial 
photography may be out of date.  I once did research into the history of the 
neighborhood where my parents were living, and found that for the first twenty 
years or so after the neighborhood was developed, the city street maps showed 
the originally-proposed street layout rather than what was actually built.


Serge Wroclawski  wrote:
>On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 10:35 AM, Richard Welty 
>wrote:
>
>> a road name from TIGER 2012 is a much better choice as it avoids the
>> potential issues sourcing a name from Google presents. a ground
>> survey would always be best, of course.
>
>We should never be sourcing names from Google, ever, but TIGER 2012 is
>also not a choice one should make without checking, because as we
>discussed on the import committee meeting last night, some of the
>names in TIGER are completely wrong.
>
>- Serge
>
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Re: [Talk-us] OSM Data Quality

[John F. Eldredge]

One thing that would help in the editor software would be, once you select a 
tag, and list the preset values available, to have the option to list the wiki 
descriptions of what those values mean.  This should be optional, and should 
come up in a separate window so you don't lose track of what you are editing.


Frederic Julien  wrote:
>Dear all,
>
>I'm working on a presentation and interested to hear your thoughts.
>What are the top 2-3 changes that could improve OSM data quality? That
>could be processes, tools, methods, training, peer review, attributes,
>etc.
>
>If this sort of info is available elsewhere let me know.
>
>Looking forward to your answers.
>
>Many thanks,
>
>Frederic
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Admin boundary level quirk in NYC

[John F. Eldredge]

You might want to take a look at how Virginia is mapped.  Cities in Virginia 
are not considered to be subordinate to counties, even if surrounded on all 
sides by a county.  Towns, on the other hand, are subordinate to, and part of, 
counties.


Greg Troxel  wrote:
> 
>   So I propose a different schema:
> 
>   New York Boroughs: 9
>   Cities (incl. NYC): 8
>   Counties: 6
> 
> and have separate relations for the counties and boroughs (e.g.
> Brooklyn
>   and Kings County), sharing the same ways.
> 
> Your proposal sounds entirely reasonable to me.  The notion that
> cities
> are contained within a county is baked into the hierarchical
> organization, and something has to give when that isn't true.  Letting
> the hierarchy not line up seems better than choosing different levels.
> 
> In the old way, there's the awkward question about how L5 should be
> rendered, and why it should look different than L8, and that's all
> unnnecessary mess.
> 
> Your proposal defers the interesting choice to the renderer, which is
> whether one cares about counties or boroughs, but such deferring is in
> my view a feature.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] misuse of the landuse=forest tag for national forests

[John F. Eldredge]

If you have an area that cannot grow trees, due to altitude, inadequate 
groundwater, or having exposed rock rather than soil (as with many 
mountaintops), then, in what sense is it a managed forest?  I am not talking 
about areas that are temporarily treeless due to the trees having been 
harvested.


stevea  wrote:
> >>Please don't confuse "land cover" with the
> >>political/jurisdictional and geographical definition of "inside the
> >>boundaries of a national forest."
> >
> >One more remark. Shouldn't the political/jurisdictional and 
> >geographical definition of "inside the boundaries of a national 
> >forest be defined by the boundary-, protected area-, and 
> >park:type=national_forest- tags? Moreover, how can one tag a 
> >physical forest (areas with trees present) inside the national 
> >forest?
> 
> Boundary, yes.  (As Greg Troxel pointed out as "one of the three 
> things going on here:  boundaries, landuse and land cover"). 
> Protected area, yes.  The park:type tag seems to be a more recent 
> (circa 2009/2010) "invention" by Apo42, a California-based OSM 
> volunteer who also maps in Austria.  (Being somewhat local to one 
> another, he and I have gone on hikes together and discuss OSM more 
> than occasionally).I'll let Apo speak for himself, but I really 
> like the park:type tag, so I use it extensively.  It seems to be 
> something he started with his CASIL-based California State Park 
> uploads, but it is quite extensible to park:type=county_park, 
> city_park, private_park (and more), so I continue to use that sort of 
> syntax when it makes sense to do so.  However, I also believe the 
> park:type tag to not be widely used outside of California, nor is it 
> well-documented on OSM's wiki pages (to the best of my knowledge).
> 
> I do agree with Mike Thompson's statement:  "If neither of the two 
> tags being discussed (landuse=forest, natural=wood) are appropriate 
> for tagging a generic area covered by trees (regardless if it is 
> "virgin", "managed"), it would be really helpful to have a tag that 
> could be used for this (i.e. indicate what the *landcover* is).  This 
> information is useful when navigating the back country."  Yet, I 
> continue to believe that a proper landcover=* tag is the right way to 
> do this.  Simultaneously, I think it proper that national forests 
> have a landuse=forest tag, (in addition to proper boundary= and 
> protected_area= tags) even though they MAY or MAY NOT be "just 
> trees."  My reasoning:  "landuse=forest" means a managed forest land, 
> even if not exactly 100% of it is covered by trees.  Such an area 
> that had 50% of its trees cut down (it IS a managed forest!) would 
> STILL be a managed forest, even though at least half of it is "not 
> now trees."
> 
> What I'm really saying is "I agree we could use better landcover 
> tagging."  I'm not alone here.
> 
> Wilderness areas are WITHIN national forests and are designated with 
> the leisure=nature_reserve tag.  This was discussed with my email 
> interaction with Troy Warburton of the USFS in Talk-us Digest, Vol 
> 64, Issue 1.
> 
> Here are the tags I use for National Forests within the jurisdiction 
> of the US Department of Agriculture's Forest Service:
> landuse=forest
> boundary=national_park
> boundary:type=protected_area
> protect_class=6
> protection_title=National Forest
> ownership=national
> name=Name of Forest
> 
> And here are the tags I use for Wilderness areas WITHIN National
> Forests:
> leisure=nature_reserve
> boundary=national_park
> boundary:type=protected_area
> protect_class=1b
> protection_title=Wilderness
> ownership=national
> name=Name of Wilderness
> 
> Further answering Mike Thompson, I don't think it odd at all that 
> "parts of the U.S. National Forests are not treed, for example, parts 
> that are above treeline."  The parts that are still "in" the forest 
> are still "in" the forest (which is what landuse=forest implies), 
> even if they are above the treeline and don't have trees.  Yes, it 
> seems confusing, but only if you think "landuse=forest" implies "all 
> trees."  It doesn't:  it implies "all managed forest, whether with or 
> without trees."
> 
> SteveA
> California
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Talk-us] Airport Tagging

[John F. Eldredge]

Jeffrey Ollie  wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 23, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Rick Marshall
>  wrote:
> >
> > 2.  Who decides the geographical limits of an aerodrome?
> 
> If you don't have parcel data from a government GIS department, I
> would go with the fence that surrounds most airports if it's visible
> in the Bing imagery.  That usually takes care of the "I'll get into
> trouble if I cross this line" sort of questions.
> 
> --
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> 
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It would probably be prudent to trace the fence location from aerial imagery, 
rather than walk the perimeter with a GPS.  Otherwise, you are likely to find 
yourself under lengthy interrogation by the TSA, under the assumption that the 
mapping was a cover story, and you were really preparing for an attack on the 
airport.

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Re: [Talk-us] Tagging Live indoor music venues

[John F. Eldredge]

JaggedMind  wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 8:37 AM, william skora 
>  wrote:
> 
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I was curious us to hear what others have been using to tag music
> venues.
> > There's numerous places in my city that hold upwards of 1,000 people
> for
> > music concerts (also called 'shows'). In the US, they're indoors,
> serve
> > alcohol, and usually only open when there are shows. There's usually
> > admittance fees to enter. I'm thinking of places like House of Blues
> (yes,
> > there's restaurants adjacent to some of them, but the one i've been
> to is
> > separate from the concert venue), (Cleveland places like Beachland
> > Ballroom, the Grog Shop), and more famous places like Bowery
> Ballroom.
> >
> 
> It seems like these would fall under amenity=theatre <
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Theatre>.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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The amenity=theatre tag would apply to some venues, but not all.  In Nashville, 
TN, USA, where I live, a lot of restaurants and bars have live music on at 
least some evenings during the week.

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Re: [Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute FHP

[John F. Eldredge]

Dave Hansen  wrote:

> On 02/11/2013 08:34 AM, Michael Patrick wrote:
> > FYI, an official ruling from Mouseland. This email stuff is pretty
> cool,
> > one can actually directly ask somebody who is a Subject Matter
> Expert! ;-)
> 
> While I admire the resourcefulness, I do question whether we're doing
> "the right thing" if we are trying to interpret the law in this way.
> We're obviously ill-equipped to do so ourselves.
> 
> I know the current turn restriction relations aren't suited for it.
> But, instead of tagging "left turn restriction from X to Y" shouldn't
> we
> be tagging "the pavement has an arrow that says left turn only"?
> 
> One of those requires interpretation and is subject to the law
> changing
> or being interpreted differently.  The other is only subject to change
> if someone goes out and scrapes the arrow off the pavement.
> 
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Well, you are then placing the burden of interpreting the legal meaning of the 
markings on the person who writes the routing software, and who may not even 
live in the country in question.  I think the combination of a local mapper, 
and, if necessary, checking with the government department regulating such 
matters, as was done in this case, is better than the method you proposed.

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Re: [Talk-us] Turn restriction dispute

[John F. Eldredge]

"Bill R. WASHBURN"  wrote:

> After viewing the satellite imagery for this intersection, it is clear
> to
> me that the turn testifying should be in place. Were the same
> intersection
> in Georgia,  a driver going straight across could be charged with
> "Failure
> to obey a traffic control device" (with the traffic control devices in
> question being the left turn only arrow and the gore markings. Any
> Florida
> traffic law experts on here?
> 
> By reverting this (twice now?), NE2 has committed vandalism, in my
> opinion.
> Could we now get DWG involved and get a ban hammer swinging?
> 
> Bill R. WASHBURN
> 
> 
> 
> 
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I agree with both the comment about the turn restrictions and the comment about 
NE2 having committed vandalism.

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Re: [Talk-us] MassGIS building conversion

[John F. Eldredge]

Jason Remillard  wrote:

> Hi Serge,
> 
> I don't see a license related to this data, only a copyright notice on
> > the page. Is there a separate license somewhere that says this data
> is
> > usable?
> >
> 
> Like the federal goverment, maps are considered part of the public
> record
> in Mass, and therefor are in the public domain (no copyright). No
> license
> is needed for the data. OSM has already confirmed this directly with
> the
> MassGIS people.
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/MassGIS
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > > Since it is likely that next year we will be importing this data
> into
> > OSM to
> > > support addresses, I figured it would be useful to convert the
> files to
> > OSM
> > > format and share them.
> >
> > What is the script you're plannng to use for conversion? What is
> your
> > mapping scheme? What is your plan regarding conflation with existing
> > data? What is your plan regarding updates?
> >
> 
> - I will put up my ugly little script shortly.
> - schema, building = yes
> - conflation, don't import a building that overlaps with an existing
> building in OSM.
> 
> I was thinking that this was a precursory step for the import. I don't
> have
> the time right now to lead an import myself. Regardless of who
> actually
> does it, I think getting a lot of eyes on the data is the best
> starting
> point for whatever happens next.
> 
> Thanks
> Jason.
> 
> 
> >
> > - Serge
> >
> 
> 
> --------
> 
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If the maps are considered public domain, then why is there a copyright notice?

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Re: [Talk-us] Scrubbing route relations

[John F. Eldredge]

Paul Johnson  wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Alexander Jones
> wrote:
> 
> > Paul Johnson wrote:
> >
> > > On Oct 22, 2012 9:57 AM, "Alexander Jones"
> > >  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Paul Johnson wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > FM and RM are the same network...seems odd for them to show up
> twice
> > >> > here...
> > >>
> > >> I could've sworn that the general consensus from a previous
> argument was
> > >> "one network per shield type."
> > >
> > > They use the same shield, and even TXDOT signs Farm Road and Ranch
> Road
> > > interchangeably.  They're definitely the same network.
> >
> > Same style of shield, yes. I live in Texas, and I know that although
> they
> > are, in effect, the same network, they are most definitely signed
> > differently.
> 
> 
> Not consistently.  Trailblazer shields (the all-white rectangles)
> almost
> always use "FM," and (at least along route 66), TxDOT regularly uses
> both
> RANCH ROAD and FARM ROAD on the signage for the same route.  Following
> the
> historic route of US 66 will yield dozens of examples of this
> inconsistency.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Did they switch from one term to the other at some point?  If so, the mix of 
signs on the same route might be because some of the signs have been replaced 
as they rusted out and/or got used for target practice.

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Re: [Talk-us] Schizophrenic highway

[John F. Eldredge]

Clay Smalley  wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 6:05 PM, Greg Troxel  wrote:
> >
> >   I would not tag something as
> >   motorway when it's only sometimes motorway unless it's ~10 miles
> long.
> Going off this: I remember a discussion earlier about this sort of
> thing. Someone (I forgot who) said that the "Is this a freeway?"
> question should be asked about every 5-10 miles.
> 
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There is one ring-road route in Nashville, Briley Parkway, that is partly 
limited-access road of motorway quality, and part ordinary street with traffic 
lights, intersecting driveways, and the like.  About half of the 
ordinary-street section is only two lanes wide.

Just to add to the confusion, some of the streets that were joined together to 
complete the ring kept their original names, meaning that the name changes 
every two or three miles.

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Re: [Talk-us] US-Canadian border

[John F. Eldredge]

"Metcalf, Calvin (DOT)"  wrote:

> I was thinking something more along the lines of a flipped way in a
> relation somewhere and thought it would be a simple fix but there
> seems to be the Us boarder, the Canadian boarder and some Canadian
> provincial boarders all as separate ways, I'm not actually sure if the
> US boarder needs to be there at all, this seems like it might be dealt
> with from the other side, is there an active talk-ca or equivalent. 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Richard Weait [mailto:rich...@weait.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 9:54 AM
> To: Metcalf, Calvin
> Cc: talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] US-Canadian border
> 
> On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:50 AM, Metcalf, Calvin (DOT)
>  wrote:
> > I noticed this
> >
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=44.524&lon=-67.101&zoom=10&layers=M 
> > and really can't make heads or tails of it.
> 
> Does that show "both claims" in a border dispute?
> 
> Imports.  Is there anything they can't do?
> 
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Incidentally, the boundary between two political entities is spelled "border".  
A "boarder" is someone who lives in a boarding-house (where meals are included 
along with lodging).

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Re: [Talk-us] Tags for Emergency Interstate

[John F. Eldredge]

What is an "emergency Interstate"?  I don't think I have ever heard that phrase 
before.  Is it a detour to be used while the Interstate highway is under repair?

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Re: [Talk-us] More things that are no longer there: schools.

[John F. Eldredge]

Richard Weait  wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Kevin Kenny 
> wrote:
> > On 07/13/2012 03:00 PM, James Umbanhowar wrote:
> >>
> >> Check out the historic tag
> >> (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Historic).  You could add
> >> historic=school and maybe historic:name="School Name".
> >
> >
> > Is that accepted practice? I had rather presumed that tags not
> > enumerated in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:historic were
> > deprecated, even though there are hundreds of distinct values for
> > the 'historic' tag in the database.
> 
> 
> historic:name isn't widely used, 125 times.  But that doesn't make it
> wrong, I guess.
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=historic%3Aname
> 
> historic is used almost 200k times.
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=historic
> 

In Nashville, Tennessee, many local-government offices are located in a former 
high school.   It has been fifty years or so since it stopped being a school,  
yet the standard name for it is the "Howard School Complex". 

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Re: [Talk-us] Fixing TIGER street name abbreviations

[John F. Eldredge]

David Litke  wrote:

> I just did a few manual TIGER reviews in JOSM and got a validation
> warning that words like Street and Avenue were abbreviated as St and
> Ave. So I wonder if this is considered something that needs to be
> fixed? If so, shouldn't it be easy to somehow do a batch global
> update?
>

This has been discussed, and tried, before.  Unfortunately, some abbreviations 
can stand for more than one thing, and it takes local knowledge to be sure what 
is the right choice.

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Re: [Talk-us] Parks, etc. Points or outlines

[John F. Eldredge]

Nathan Edgars II  wrote:

> On 4/24/2012 2:38 PM, Josh Doe wrote:
> > Yes, there should be only one feature for each real world object,
> and
> > the way/multipolygon has more spatial information, however the nodes
> > might have other useful information like the GNIS feature ID.
> 
> For this matter, why are there county nodes all over the U.S.? They 
> don't seem to have come from GNIS: 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/316947053/history
> 


One possibility is that they come from mappers using programs that can create 
POIs, but lack the ability to create ways.  Many cell phone mapping apps have 
this limitation.

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Re: [Talk-us] Excellent progress, u.s.

[John F. Eldredge]

andrzej zaborowski  wrote:

> On 14 April 2012 03:30, John F. Eldredge  wrote:
> > One drawback to this new-coordinate technique is that, in some
> cases, the tainted nodes will have been in the proper locations to
> match the real world.  So, in order to make the cleanup bot not
> consider the nodes to be tainted, we have to knowingly make the map
> data less accurate than it had formerly been.
> >
> 
> It also will remain tainted, only the bot will not know about it and
> consider it untainted.  So it's a way to trick the bot and potentially
> put the OSM Foundation under legal risk.
> 
> This is why the remapping effort before the bot run is finished, is a
> Really Bad Idea.  It is both more time costly and it is provoking
> users to cause incompatible IP to be preserved over the license
> change, often unconsciously.  See all the ideas of using the
> incompatible IP to create the new "compatible IP", such as using the
> tainted coastlines data to remap small islands.  (RichardF said he
> does not agree it's a bad idea, but he wouldn't explain which point he
> disagrees with or why)
> 
> Cheers

I was assuming that there was an additional data source, such as aerial photos 
and/or GPS traces, which could be used to judge the accuracy of the tainted 
node.  As I understand the way the bot judges taintedness, if you delete a 
tainted node, then insert a replacement node in the same location, the new node 
is also considered tainted even though it was added by someone who agreed to 
the new license terms, and even though that might be the correct location to 
mark the corner of a polygon.

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Re: [Talk-us] Excellent progress, u.s.

[John F. Eldredge]

James Mast  wrote:

> 
> Well guys, as far as I know, as long as the non-CT user didn't add any
> tags to the node, all you have to do is move said node to a new
> coordinate and it should then be considered un-tainted.  That's what I
> was told and that's what happens on the OSM Inspector.  Plus, if
> you're using the License Change plugin in JOSM, you can see with that
> what nodes are considered "tainted" when you're cleaning a way. At
> least I don't have to worry about I-81 in TN getting axed.  I rebuild
> it from the ground up, and the only parts that could be considered
> tainted in any way are the ramps from I-40 or I-26 as I just retraced
> them and kept the nodes, but the nodes were all moved from their
> original locations. --James
>
One drawback to this new-coordinate technique is that, in some cases, the 
tainted nodes will have been in the proper locations to match the real world.  
So, in order to make the cleanup bot not consider the nodes to be tainted, we 
have to knowingly make the map data less accurate than it had formerly been.

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Re: [Talk-us] Network tag Re: Highway Shield Rendering

[John F. Eldredge]

Nathan Edgars II  wrote:

> On 4/4/2012 12:14 PM, Craig Hinners wrote:
> > Nathan Edgars II:
> >> It seems that many people see the network tag as not representing a
> >> network but a shield design. Does this sound accurate?
> >
> > No, because, where shield designs differ by agency for the same
> logical
> > network classification, the network tag does not change, despite the
> > differing shields.
> >
> > One of many examples: Maryland uses a unique green-on-white shield
> for
> > US Business routes, but those roads still get tagged as
> > "network=US:US:Business", not "network=US:US:Business:MD" or
> somesuch.
> > The renderer would have to detect which agency the road is "in", and
> > render the agency-specific shield accordingly.
> 
> So your belief is that there is such a thing as a "U.S. Highway 
> Business" network, despite AASHTO considering business routes to be
> part 
> of the main U.S. Highway network?
> 
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You just answered your own question.  The business routes are part of the main 
U.S. highway network, rather than making up a separate "U.S. Highway Business" 
network.

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Re: [Talk-us] Parabens - Voce foi sortedo(a) com 10.000 pontos fidelidade - Clique aqui e resgate.

[John F. Eldredge]

Dave Hansen  wrote:

> On 03/09/2012 01:38 PM, Paul Norman wrote:
> > Is turning on moderation for non-members an option?
> 
> That's what I meant by "require folks to be members before posting"
> pretty much.  It's an option, but that dumps all of the overhead on to
> the poor list administrator.  :)  The spam bothers me a lot less than
> all of those admin requests would.
> 

Another option would be to maintain a blacklist of known spammers, as opposed 
to a whitelist of members.  That would produce less overhead for the list 
administrator, but there would need to be provision for taking a name back off 
of the blacklist, if the person in question can persuade the administrator that 
the actual spammer was forging an innocent person's email address.

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Re: [Talk-us] name expansion bot (Re: Imports information on the wiki)

[John F. Eldredge]

Nathan Edgars II  wrote:

> On 2/17/2012 4:41 PM, TC Haddad wrote:
> > For example: in Portland all the expanded quadrant names (NE,NW, SE,
> SW)
> > really detract from the experience of using osm extracts on handheld
> > GPS. All the streets in an area of interest end up looking like they
> > have the same name because all that fits on the street segments is
> the
> > first word of the expanded quadrant label and not the "real" part of
> the
> > name. So "NE Tillamook" and "NE Hancock" both just label as
> > "Northeast"... and that is separate from the issue that people don't
> > actually write addresses here as "Northeast Tillamook".
> 
> If the directional prefixes are not generally used as part of the
> name, 
> they should probably not be in the name tag, but instead as an address
> 
> tag (I've used addr:direction e.g. 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/140789671).
> 

Does he mean that people don't use the prefix at all when referring to the 
street, or does he mean that people use the abbreviated form of the prefix, 
rather than the spelled-out prefix?  The statement could be interpreted either 
way.

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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Finding untagged dead-ends

[John F. Eldredge]

p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote:

> I am struggling to understand why this is seen as an error that needs
> fixing.
> 
> I can think of plenty of roads that end in eithsr a dead end or become
> a footpath, bridleway. Many are single track where the only way out is
> a very long reverse. These are a feature of the landscape, and often a
> result of the enclosure acts. They should be left well alone.
> 
> Phil
> 
> 
> On 15/02/2012 11:14 Josh Doe wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 12:41 AM, Nathan Edgars II
>  wrote:
> > Is there a way (in JOSM or otherwise) to find all dead-ends (nodes
> contained
> > in only one highway way) without highway=turning_circle or
> noexit=yes in an
> > area?
> 
> There's a ticket that would help accomplish this [0]. You could then
> do a search like "-(highway=mini_roundabout OR highway=turning_circle
> OR noexit=yes) child:0,-1 highway=* type:way". At the moment I can't
> think of a way to select nodes with only one parent way. If I'm not
> missing something and this functionality isn't implemented yet, it
> wouldn't be hard, just need to create a ticket and choose an
> appopriate keyword: "nparents" "nchildren"?
> 
> -Josh
> 
> [0]: http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/7262
> 

Dead-end streets are common in residential neighborhoods here in Nashville, TN, 
USA.  Older parts of the city, pre-World-War-II, are mostly laid out in grid 
patterns, but the majority of post-World-War-II Nashville (which is to say 
about 80% of the city) was built one subdivision at a time.  Each subdivision 
is laid out in a tree pattern, with many dead-end streets off of a few major 
roads.  The radial roads generally date back to when this was farmland.  As a 
result, you sometimes have to drive a couple of miles in order to reach a 
destination only a few hundred feet from your starting point.  Some of these 
dead-end roads have turning circles at their end, some don't.  As far as I 
know, most don't have a noexit=yes tag.

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Re: [Talk-us] Remapping tips

[John F. Eldredge]

Nathan Edgars II  wrote:

> On 2/6/2012 6:06 PM, Nick Hocking wrote:
> > Firstly - don't listen to those who see blobs of red on OSMI and say
> > "we're all doomed"  - This is a very overly pessimistic view.
> 
> Prove me wrong. Those of you who support the license change, get every
> 
> street in LA cleaned by April Fools without losing any correct
> information.
> 

So, you are implying that nothing further can be done after April 1st?  If the 
remapping can't be completed by then, OSM is doomed?  I agree that you are 
being overly pessimistic.

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Re: [Talk-us] Remapping is good

[John F. Eldredge]

Nathan Edgars II  wrote:

> On 1/31/2012 4:07 PM, Nick Hocking wrote:
> > Blimey - two streets up from Arvia, Asbury Street was incorrectly
> > named in OSM as Ashbury.
> > Just how many typos are there in L.A.
> > Hey - now there's a good idead for a competition!!!
> 
> What you mean is that imports are better than surveying (since mappers
> 
> make typos). The correctness of this is left to the reader.
> 

All mappers make some errors, whether you are talking about the mappers who 
originally created the data found in TIGER, OSM mappers, or even Google Maps.  
I found a case in Google Maps the other day where, if you searched for a 
certain street address, it would point you to a location that was on the 
correct street, but a couple of miles from the correct location.

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Re: [Talk-us] LA and other license changeover challenged areas.

[John F. Eldredge]

Martijn van Exel  wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Nick Hocking
>  wrote:
> > Nathan wrote
> >
> >>On 1/30/2012 7:05 AM, Nick Hocking wrote:
> >
> >>> Be carefull with intersecting road Cypress Avenue, we can't
> recover the
> >>> cycleway tag unless you yourself have personal knowledge of this.
> >
> >>The bike lane markings can (barely) be seen on Bing aerials.
> >
> >
> > Thanks for that Nathan,
> >
> > Google street view clearly shows these markings as "Bike Lane" with
> an
> > arrow pointing ahead.  In all honesty I can't absolutely read this
> with
> > Bing aerials but knowing what these markings look like and their
> > position at the intersection, the Bing marking couldn't really be
> > anything else, (or could they?) Corner of Alice Street is about the
> > clearest one I can find.
> >
> > So what is the consensus, is the Bing imagery adequete for an
> armchair
> > mapper to claim the cycle lane or could Google claim that I cheated.
> 
> I'd say knowing what they look like + Bing is sufficient if the road
> markings are actually there (not only the lane separator linear
> markings - that's too ambiguous). What I'm not sure of is whether bike
> lane road markings are the same across the US (ie a stylized bicycle +
> rider with an arrow point in the direction of bike traffic flow on
> top).
> 

I can't say whether they are the same all over the USA, but what you described 
matches what is used here in Tennessee.

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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Splitting a way may completely hide a taint

[John F. Eldredge]

Nathan Edgars II  wrote:

> On 12/21/2011 8:01 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> > Sounds like a policy decision to me - you can either be too cautious
> or
> > too careful but probably never do it exactly right.
> And we really need to know how the OSMF is treating these common cases
> 
> before we start the process of minimizing damage.
> 
>  > Policies should be discussed on legal-talk.
> Why? They have nothing to do with legal considerations.
> 

Legal cosiderations may be part of why a policy is chosen, although there may 
well be other considerations as well.
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Re: [Talk-us] Medians and reverts

[John F. Eldredge]

Nathan Edgars II  wrote:

> On 12/21/2011 12:45 PM, Paul Johnson wrote:
> > In California, carpool lanes are seperated by a painted median.
> This is what's in dispute. Is the following a median or simply a lane 
> separator? http://www.scvresources.com/highways/118_hov_lane.jpg
> 


Are the HOV restrictions in effect at all times, or only for part of the day?  
The HOV restrictions on inbound highways in Nashville, TN are only in effect 
for certain morning hours on weekdays (inbound rush hour), and those on 
outbound highways are only in effect for certain late-afternoon hours on 
weekdays (evening rush hour).  The rest of the time, the HOV lanes are treated 
as normal lanes.  If the HOV lane restrictions are not 24/7, I would class 
those as lane separators, not medians.   Also, if a vehicle with enough 
passengers is allowed to move into/out of the HOV lanes at any point, I would 
not classify the markings as a median, but only as a lane separator.

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Re: [Talk-us] Editing Party In Chattanooga December 4th 2011

[John F. Eldredge]

Nathan Edgars II  wrote:

> On 11/29/2011 1:45 PM, Randal Hale wrote:
> >   * We're (OC) also trying to verify if roads need sidewalks for
> > pedestrian traffic.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by this. As far as I know, it's legal to
> walk 
> (against vehicle traffic) on the majority of roads without improved 
> sidewalks in every U.S. state. Or if you're talking about routing 
> software, I doubt there's enough sidewalk tagging that any of them
> have 
> decided to prefer roads with sidewalks.
> 

I suspect they mean "is it safe to walk in the street" more than "is it legal 
to walk in the street".  I know that there are a number of places in Nashville, 
TN where there isn't much of an alternative to walking in the street, due to 
terrain or other obstacles, yet walking in the street is dangerous because 
narrow traffic lanes and a lack of shoulders puts you very close to traffic.

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Re: [Talk-us] Address improvement through imports?

[John F. Eldredge]

Steven Johnson  wrote:

> Up to now, we've been talking largely about addresses as point
> features.
> However, one thing I think would be good to have is block ranges on
> streets. What I mean is a tag that indicates this is the 1000 block,
> the
> 1100 block, the 1200 block, etc. Rather than being a point feature
> attached
> to buildings, it would be a tag associated with the way. It would be
> much
> easier to implement, make the map renderings much more presentable at
> small
> scales, and provide better address utility than presently exists.
> 

This idea, of tagging address ranges within blocks, sounds like a good idea to 
me.  Some cities, such as Louisville, KY, put address ranges on street signs, 
which would make gathering such information easy in those cities.

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Re: [Talk-us] One of the strangest TIGER screwups I've seen

[John F. Eldredge]

Anthony  wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Richard Welty
>  wrote:
> > On 10/23/11 3:02 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
> >>
> >> On 10/23/2011 2:59 PM, Richard Welty wrote:
> >>>
> >>> from Mike's comment, the name appears to likely be correct local
> usage.
> >>
> >> Mike's link is from Wisconsin; the way is in Connecticut.
> >
> > ok, fine, but you're still making an assumption that may turn out to
> be
> > wrong.
> 
> In this case it seems to be a safe assumption, though.  Can someone
> check TIGER 2010 to see what it currently says?
> 

Someone should check whether the local name for it may be Alte Eisenbahn, used 
untranslated as a proper name.  This might well be a case where 
English-speakers adopted a non-English term rather than translating it, as with 
the Paseo del Rio (river-walk) in San Antonio, Texas.  The eastern US had a lot 
of German immigration in the 18th and 19th centuries, and some groups, such as 
the so-called Pennsylvania Dutch, still speak German among themselves.  The 
TIGER code for other transportation, rather than abandoned railway, might 
reflect the roadbed having already been put to other uses at the time the TIGER 
data was collated.
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Re: [Talk-us] Interstate Crossovers

[John F. Eldredge]

Anthony  wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 9:40 AM, John F. Eldredge 
> wrote:
> > The access=emergency tag is documented in the wiki as meaning that
> access is permitted for emergency vehicles, and would seem to ideally
> fit this situation.
> 
> Where is it in the wiki?  I did a search for "emergency", and all I
> found is http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:emergency which is
> about emergency=*, not access=emergency.
> 

The first bullet point in the above page describes the use of emergency in 
regards to access.  Did you try reading the page?

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Re: [Talk-us] FYI - user Justinb in western GA

[John F. Eldredge]

Nathan Edgars II  wrote:

> On 10/8/2011 9:49 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:
> > It sounds like the proposed causeway tag would be the best way to
> mark this section of road.
> 
> What's wrong with embankment=yes?
> 

That would also work, although causeway implies that the roadway is raised 
higher than the terrain to either side of the roadway, whereas embankment=yes 
might imply that only one side had an embankment (as in a road built along a 
cross-slope).  Perhaps we should have embankment=left, embankment=right, and 
embankment=both?

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Re: [Talk-us] FYI - user Justinb in western GA

[John F. Eldredge]

Randal Hale  wrote:

> Since I'm in Chattanooga and next to the super bridge at the TN/GA 
> border I'll send him a message today offering help. That stretch that
> he 
> has called a bridge is elevated out of the flood plain.. The road bed
> is 
> has been built up about 10 to 15 feet in most places to get it out of 
> flooding...and it floods regularly. If you traveled along this section
> 
> during a flood event I can completely see someone calling it a bridge.
> 
> There's water along the east side and in the median. In the worst
> events 
> (and we've had quite a few in the last 4 months) the northbound lane
> is 
> out of the water by a foot or less..but then if you're even
> slightly 
> familiar with imagery/photography you can see it's not.
> 

It sounds like the proposed causeway tag would be the best way to mark this 
section of road.
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Re: [Talk-us] Interstate Crossovers

[John F. Eldredge]

Anthony  wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Phil! Gold  wrote:
> > * Anthony  [2011-10-07 16:36 -0400]:
> >> access=private is wrong if it is not private property.
> >
> > I understand access=private to mean, "You cannot go here without
> express
> > permission from the property owner."  The land is owned by whatever
> > government owns it, and the sign says you can't go there unless you
> have
> > their permission.
> 
> By that rationale, all government owned land is access=private.
> 

The access=emergency tag is documented in the wiki as meaning that access is 
permitted for emergency vehicles, and would seem to ideally fit this situation. 
 Admittedly, it is documented only if you search for the word "emergency", 
rather than on the page for the access tag.

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Re: [Talk-us] Interstate Crossovers

[John F. Eldredge]

Peter Dobratz  wrote:

> I had been tagging them highway=service, but with access=private.
> 
> It sounds like access=official is used in places like Germany to
> denote access to a bicycle path where bicycles and only bicycles can
> travel on it.  Typically in this situation, there is a parallel path
> that pedestrians and only pedestrians can travel on.
> 
> Peter
> 
> On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 4:12 AM, James Mast 
> wrote:
> > Hey guys, I'm curious, but how have you guys been tagging them when
> you add
> > them?
> >
> > I've been tagging them as "highway=service ; access=official".
> >
> > I was wondering if I was using the correct "access" tag so that
> routers
> > wouldn't route you onto them by accident.
> >
> > -- James

Now I understand what is being referred to.  I would use highway=service and 
access=official, since their usage is restricted to official vehicles.

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Re: [Talk-us] Interstate Crossovers

[John F. Eldredge]

James Mast  wrote:

> 
> Hey guys, I'm curious, but how have you guys been tagging them when
> you add them? I've been tagging them as "highway=service ;
> access=official". I was wondering if I was using the correct "access"
> tag so that routers wouldn't route you onto them by accident. -- James
>

Define what you mean by an Interstate crossover.  If you simply mean a point 
where an ordinary road passes

 over the Interstate on a bridge, or the Interstate passes over the ordinary 
road, there are no special restrictions on either way other than those applying 
to adjacent sections of roadway, and thus no reason to for a router to avoid 
the crossover.  Use the layer tag on both ways to indicate that it isn't a 
grade-level intersection.

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Re: [Talk-us] access=destination vs access=private

[John F. Eldredge]

Paul Johnson  wrote:

> On Sun, 2011-09-11 at 04:34 -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
> > On 9/11/2011 4:25 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
> > > Beaverton, Oregon, in all their wisdom, likes to post roads as
> "DEAD
> > > END" or "NO OUTLET" when it clearly does have an outlet, just not
> for
> > > motor vehicles.
> > 
> > I'm not sure what this has to do with access tags, since these are 
> > advisory (yellow) signs. Only a regulatory (white) "no thru traffic"
> 
> > would be access=destination.
> 
> It's an example of a situation where if you're on a bicycle it might
> be
> better to pay attention to the GPS or the directions given than to
> take
> a sign that indicates there's no physical way out except the way you
> came as being accurate.

Sometimes the "Dead End" sign is out of date.  In one case I know of, here in 
Nashville, TN, a pair of formerly dead-end streets were connected together to 
make a through street.  The city promptly took down one of the "Dead End" 
signs, but left the other one in place for over a decade before finally 
removing it.

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Re: [Talk-us] Women trust GPS, drive SUV into Lake

[John F. Eldredge]

Kristian M Zoerhoff  wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 06:15:01AM -0400, Mike N wrote:
> > 
> >
> http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/f225/women-trust-gps-drive-suv-into-lake-81264/
> > 
> >   I did check the OSM map to be sure there were no non-existing
> > roads shown crossing the lake.
> 
> The *claim* the GPS directed them into the lake, but I've yet to see
> any 
> indication of what GPS or what maps they had, or why they couldn't be 
> bothered to notice the large body of water through the windshield.
> 
> But yeah, making sure OSM is clean is always a good idea :-)

I would put the blame on the driver.  What is physically present trumps what a 
map or GPS shows, every time.


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"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [Talk-us] US highway classification

[John F. Eldredge]

Nathan Edgars II  wrote:

>There are many types of roads that it's not possible to describe. How
>do 
>you tag an unpaved classified road so the map shows that it's unpaved 
>(this is very common in the third world, but also occurs in extremely 
>rural areas of the US)? You don't.

Use the surface tag.  Using multiple tags to describe a way, instead of simply 
the highway tag, lets you describe more details.  In turn, renderers should 
look at more than just the highway tag.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [Talk-us] US highway classification

[John F. Eldredge]

athan Mills  wrote:

> On Fri, 27 May 2011 12:17:53 -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
>
>>> The 'major intercity' road ought to be tagged as primary unless
>>> there's
>>> a specific reason to upgrade, IMO. That leaves the data more useful
>>> to
>>> end users.
>>
>> Actually that leaves it less useful for users in cities, as then
>> there are only two classifications for non-intercity highways,
>> secondary and tertiary.
>
> Uh, what are you on about? Motorway itself doesn't necessarily imply
>intercity or intracity, and neither do any of the other
>classifications.
>I can think of several intercity county roads that ought not qualify
>for
>anything beyond unclassified (they're old routes with several bypasses)
>
>and several intracity routes that definitely ought to be classified as
> trunk or motorway. It comes down to how the highway is built and what
> the highway is.
>
>>> Also, I don't know how major a road between Dumas, TX and Texline,
>>> TX
>>> really is. If it weren't a US highway, I'd probably demote it all
>>> the
>>> way to secondary.
>>
>> It's on the National Highway System, meaning the FHWA considers it to
>> be a major road. It's probably the best route between Kansas City and
>> Albuquerque.
>
> I'm going to assume you mean 'best non-Interstate route'. Most of it
> isn't even four laned yet, although Texas has some of it under
> construction. Same goes for the segment between Clayton, NM and I-25,
>although there New Mexico is upgrading the road to four lane divided in
>
> one whack. Which, as an aside, makes for one incredibly long
> construction zone.
>
> Talking solely about relatively rural areas, it seems to me that by
> default the best non-motorway route between two regionally important
>cities should be tagged primary unless there's a reason to upgrade it
>to
> trunk based on the physical characteristics of the road. To me, trunk
>implies a divided 4 lane at worst, or arguably including a true super
>2,
> of which I've seen a couple in Kansas (I think one of Oklahoma's
> turnpikes might also be a true super 2, but I haven't driven it
> personally). It just makes sense to me based on the way we build our
> roads here in the US.

I have driven on quite a few highways here in the USA that vary, mile by mile, 
in the number of lanes, how well they are graded, whether or not driveways 
connect directly to the highway, etc.  This usually reflects their having been 
upgraded one piece at a time.  Sections that pass through difficult terrain are 
often the last to be upgraded.  Of course, whether or not a local politician 
has friends or relatives in the road-construction business makes a difference 
as well.

If you classify these highways according to their importance to the 
transportation grid, then long sections, with variable physical 
characteristics, will be classified the same.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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