Re: [Talk-us] Mapping for emergency services

[Simon Poole]

Just a general remark: we have active fire fighters contributing and using OSM 
in many places around the globe maybe it's time for a global exchange of ideas 
and a common forum for that?

Simon

PS: unluckily HOT and FOSM are already taken so a acronym will need some work 
:-)

Am 4. Februar 2020 15:57:57 MEZ schrieb Paul Johnson :
>On Mon, Feb 3, 2020 at 8:58 AM Mike Thompson 
>wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> That is a very compelling story.  Thanks to you and the other OSM
>folks
>> involved for making it happen and to you for writing the diary entry.
> I
>> have often thought that OSM would be a great resource emergency
>responders
>> because in some areas it contains data that no one else has, but
>generally
>> the reaction that I have gotten when I have suggested this to such
>> officials was "we have our own data", "we have already invested in
>xyz
>> system" (sunk cost fallacy), or "how can we trust OSM?".  The
>exception was
>> a search and rescue group that used OSM to help locate missing people
>in
>> the back country because OSM contains trails that no other source
>has.
>>
>> Is this being publicised outside of the OSM community?  There are
>probably
>> associations for fire fighters and other emergency response
>professionals
>> and perhaps someone from the FD involved could speak about this
>project at
>> one of their conferences to get agencies in other parts of the
>country (or
>> world) interested.
>>
>
>I've been to a few furry conventions in Oklahoma where firefighters
>have
>attended and cartography has come up.  Oddly enough, for the rural
>firefighters?  Osmand with Microsoft Earth imagery as the background is
>their most popular pick because it works brilliantly offline and we
>have
>better map data than the state itself does.  The E911 system (where
>available) spits 'em a set of coordinates, so punch that in and go. 
>Hit
>the destination distance button to cache in the imagery around where
>they're going in case the exact driveway or building hasn't been mapped
>yet.

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Re: [Talk-us] Website showing the best time to survey with GPS.

[Simon Poole]

The answer the OP was looking for is likely https://www.gnssplanning.com/




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Re: [Talk-us] Mapping rail trails

[Simon Poole]

Am 24. Juni 2019 19:18:26 MESZ schrieb Greg Troxel :

>One wonders how RTC squares this decision with their legal obligation
>to
>act in the public interest.  Not sharing data at all to get "related
>income" to fund their operation is one thing, but sharing with Google
>while not with OSM seems hard to defend.
>
...
That would seem to imply that Google got the data for free, I don't believe 
that is something we actually know.
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Re: [Talk-us] California is too big ;)

[Simon Poole]

Jumping in here slightly unwarranted, but what the heck :-).

I think the question is less where N vs S California is but more if
there is a regional split of California that would make sense from a
processing pov. Is for example somebody likely to do something with a
North-CA extract, or if you would want to do something on a smaller
scale, would that clearly be at a county level. Frederik is likely to
groan at that idea, but some how I suspect that CA county level extracts
would be comparable with states in other countries.

Simon




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Re: [Talk-us] NYC Name Vandalism

[Simon Poole]

OSM changesets or even the diffs only contain the changes to objects,
while in the simple case (somebody vandalising the name tag on NYC) that
may be enough to determine that something is "bad" for example messing
up a motorway exit will require you to actually apply (in one way or the
other) the changes to the existing data, or even the changes from
multiple changesets. Then naturally you will have edits that undo
previous bad edits that need to be handle some way too (this creates a
potential for conflicts, as the fix may be a substantial amount of time
later). 

I suspect some of the above is why Mapbox uses a different granularity
grouping of changes for their review process (see the SotM talk by Lukas).

In any case all of the above potentially lead to your private fork of
the planet getting out of sync real fast with the original, implying
that applying diffs will become more problematic over time.  So you
wouldn't be able to take you fixed and known good planet fork, apply
only good diffs, and expect to be able to continue to do that for a year
or so.

IMHO the only thing that could really work in the OSM model is reverting
real fast in the -original- dataset.

Naturally there is the other aspect that we want our contributors to
gain experience and become better mappers over time. You are only going
to get that if leave the opportunity to make mistakes open and don't
robo-fix everything that goes wrong

Simon


Am 06.09.2018 um 02:56 schrieb Alan Brown:
> Hi,
>
> Perhaps I didn't express it clearly, but my interest was in the idea
> that certain. rather limited changelists could be flagged for
> moderation before they are put into main dataset.  There will always
> be things that seem like they should be blocked, but are actually
> appropriate.   In the interest of having the most accurate data, I'm
> not convinced this form of moderation can't have a role.  As I
> understand it, the virtue of OSM is to allow anyone to contribute
> accurate, detailed local knowledge about the places they know about;
> however, there's no value in having junk in the database for even a
> moment, if it can be avoided.  Place names are usually verifiable
> facts, even disputed place names.  So you don't want the open nature
> of OSM to compromise accuracy, or a quest for accuracy to discourage
> people from contributing accurate information.
>
> I said my peace; I suspect the OSM community is not culturally
> disposed to that form of moderation. So I will ask about a different
> approach.
>
> In my case, I've seen editing errors that affected motorway
> connectivity (not vandalism), that were made and corrected within a
> couple hours.  Pretty good - except our planet file was in that two
> hour window.  I want to avoid these errors, without getting caught in
> the errors of the next two hour window.
>
> I'm not sure if Mapbox or others use a process like this, but this is
> what I can imagine:
>
> PLANETcur is the current planet file
> PLANETprev is the last used planet file
> CHANGEcur-prev is a comprehensive list of changelists between the two
> datasets
>
> A particular consumer of OSM data can automatically scan
> CHANGEcur-prev and/or PLANETcur for potentially troubling content,
> according to their own criteria.  In their local copy, if they detect
> something they do not want to accept - offensive place names,
> incomplete topology - they can attempt to revert - in their local copy
> only! - recent changes that violate their criteria.  They accept
> whatever mistakes their "reversion" algorithm makes.  The identified
> "questionable changelists"  can be submitted back to the OSM community
> to review and revert, but always by a human.
>
> My hope is that I am being completely unoriginal, and I can cobble
> together existing tools quickly. How unoriginal am I?
>
> I am looking over the osmcha.mapbox.com page, and saw reference to a
> utility called "osm-compare":  
> https://github.com/mapbox/osm-compare/blob/master/comparators/README.md
> - which has an obscenity filter.  If I understand this correctly,
> osm-compare flags changelists for review, osmcha.mapbox.com allows
> people to review the flagged datasets and reverse bad edits.  Could
> someone define osm-compare filters that produce results that can be
> automatically pulled into a local copy?
>
> (If a changeset has been reviewed by a second person - can that
> information be provided).
>
> All I want is something that allows me to be a little bit more
> conservative in accepting edits, without requiring complex processes
> or large resource.  A little insight would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, September 5, 2018, 7:52:46 AM PDT, Simon Poole
>  wro

Re: [Talk-us] NYC Name Vandalism

[Simon Poole]

osmcha (osmcha.mapbox.com) already does most of this. While detecting
vandalism in general is difficult, edits like those in question are easy
to detect and small in number.

IMHO it really isn't an issue with openstreetmap in this case, as even
with the delay (somebody reported the user in question instead of
reverting and then reporting) in the specific case the vandalism was
swiftly removed. The reason that this is being discussed at all is
because of the edit resurfacing with a third party and having to be a)
detected, b) reported, and c) fixed again. Yes what we know this was a
glitch in the third parties workflow, but they are bound to happen and
we shouldn't pretend given the large number of edits that any procedures
put in place are going to be 100% effective, be it directly with OSM or
by third parties. 

Simon


Am 05.09.2018 um 16:23 schrieb Greg Troxel:
> I tend to agree that automated systems are going to be not that useful.
>
> I tend to notice some things in my area, but it's hard to keep track.
>
> This makes me wonder about a tool that
>
>   - lets people sign up to watch edits, in some area, or in general,
> sort of like maproulette.   Use some scoring system where new
> mappers edits are more likely to be looked at by somebody, and
> people who claim an area as theirs are more likely to get shown
> edits there, or maybe let people get all edits in some bbox
>
>   - lets people give a rating to a changeset, something like:
>i) high priority for inspection by others
>ii) worthy of being checked by a local
>iii) probably ok
>iv) definitely ok
>
>   - presents things to multiple people
>
>   - somehow uses a rater's own edit history to validate this (perhaps be
> cautious about people with < 500 changesets, and very cautious < 50)
>
>
> This is a slippery slope to a reputation system, but I think in terms of
> culture, the fact that anybody can review is there already, and the
> bright line is needing permission to change things, vs a more efficient
> way of others looking over changes.
>
>
> Unfortunately my editor crashed and I lost the source code :-)
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Talk-us Digest, Vol 127, Issue 11

[Simon Poole]

Just so that there is no confusion wrt Riot and Matrix:

- Riot is the most popular client (for web, android, ios) that speaks
the matrix protocol, but there are others including sdks for many platforms.

- the client connects to a "homeserver" that implement the matrix
protocol and connects to other such servers (see
https://matrix.org/blog/home/).

It is not completely clear, at least to me, if there would be any
advantage to the OSMF or OSM-something running their own homeserver
instead of just using the publicly available ones, but it is something
that could be fairly easily be done.

Simon


Am 13.06.2018 um 17:11 schrieb teslas_moustache:
> In the debate between Slack vs. Riot, I would definitely go Riot. I am
> so tired of Slack for so many reasons.
>
>
> On 06/13/2018 07:00 AM, talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:
>> Send Talk-us mailing list submissions to
>>  talk-us@openstreetmap.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>  talk-us-requ...@openstreetmap.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>  talk-us-ow...@openstreetmap.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Talk-us digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>1. Re: Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import
>>   in Price George...) (Marc Gemis)
>>2. Re: Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import
>>   in Price George...) (Robert Yaklin)
>>3. Re: Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import
>>   in Price George...) (Marc Gemis)
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 05:47:27 +0200
>> From: Marc Gemis 
>> To: Mike Dupont 
>> Cc: Simon Poole , "talk-us@openstreetmap.org"
>>  
>> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning
>>  an import in Price George...)
>> Message-ID:
>>  
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>>
>> The Belgian community lives now mostly on Riot, we do have an IRC
>> bridge and different channels to discuss dev or landuse related stuff.
>>
>> The main drawback is the lack of threads (ever tried to follow 2
>> discussions taking place at the same time, let alone read was said
>> during the day ?). The not so great search  is another problem.
>>
>> But for a quick question (with a photo) it's great.
>>
>> just my .5 cent
>>
>> m
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 3:13 PM, Mike Dupont
>>  wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> I have had good experience with riot.im matrix.org it is open source, mobile
>>> friendly and has an irc gateway.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 3:27 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Am 10.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb Bryan Housel:
>>>>>> I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the
>>>>>> community or should we look elsewhere?
>>>>> Glad you asked!  I think Slack has changed the way I work for the
>>>>> better.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here are some advantages..
>>>>> * lower barrier to entry for less technical folks
>>>>> * great mobile experience
>>>>> * good for sharing files / screenshots
>>>>> * works well for both sync and async chat
>>>>> * emoji reactions, can be used to both cut down on noise comments but
>>>>> also mark things as read (like our welcome users feed)
>>>>> * integration with basically everything (GitHub, Stripe, RSS anything
>>>>> you want really)
>>>>> * easy to start focused public or private channels and pull a few people
>>>>> in to a discussion
>>>>> * ability to mute and set availability times
>>>>> * user profiles
>>>>> * decent search
>>>> You can have all of that with a number of alternatives, matrix for
>>>> completely open and free, mattermost and so on for less ...
>>>> .. and these alternatives actually connect with other stuff (say irc).
>>>>
>>>>> * everyone is on it
>>>> That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy after you've essentially
>>>> force migrated everybody there and then cut the ties with any other
>>>> competing med

Re: [Talk-us] Slack: Do we need an Alternative (was Planning an import in Price George...)

[Simon Poole]

Am 10.06.2018 um 05:21 schrieb Bryan Housel:
>> I'm also interested in how others feel about Slack. Is it good for the 
>> community or should we look elsewhere?
> Glad you asked!  I think Slack has changed the way I work for the better.
>
> Here are some advantages..
> * lower barrier to entry for less technical folks
> * great mobile experience
> * good for sharing files / screenshots
> * works well for both sync and async chat
> * emoji reactions, can be used to both cut down on noise comments but also 
> mark things as read (like our welcome users feed)
> * integration with basically everything (GitHub, Stripe, RSS anything you 
> want really)
> * easy to start focused public or private channels and pull a few people in 
> to a discussion
> * ability to mute and set availability times
> * user profiles
> * decent search

You can have all of that with a number of alternatives, matrix for
completely open and free, mattermost and so on for less ...
.. and these alternatives actually connect with other stuff (say irc).

> * everyone is on it
That's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy after you've essentially
force migrated everybody there and then cut the ties with any other
competing media (in OSM) so that you can have your nice walled garden.

SImon
 
>
> I really can’t imagine going back to something else.  I’d happily pay for it 
> if they asked me to.
>
> Anyway, I felt it important to speak up because I’ve noticed a very common 
> situation when asking for people’s opinion about something, the people who 
> are happy will stay silent, and the few who have a problem will be the ones 
> who respond.
>
> There are currently over 800 people on the OSM-US Slack, and over 3000 on the 
> GIS Spatial Community Slack.  I have no idea how many people are subscribed 
> to the talk-us mailing list.  
>
> I don’t think we should get rid of mailing lists.  We should still copy 
> things to the talk-us mailing that affect the entire US community.
>
> Just my thoughts
> Thanks, Bryan
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Help fight advertising

[Simon Poole]

While I don't think supporting specific, rather questionable business
models, is something we should expend a lot of effort on, improving the
tooling for individual businesses to maintain an entry in OSM is (and a
serious SEO shop could easily use such tools).

Some may have already had a look at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSMyBiz  which is not quite ready
for prime time yet, but due to be released rsn, There's a test instance
running against the dev sandbox, but I need to check with Stefan if we
at this stage should be pointing to it, or not simply waiting for the
release version.

Simon



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Re: [Talk-us] Looking for GPS with voice annotation?

[Simon Poole]

As has already been suggested you can do this with OSMTracker, however
(and I used it a lot for gathering house numbers) IMHO voice annotations
are really too easy to get wrong in one way or the other and just tend
to turn in to a rather stressful experience.

If you have a reasonably regular numbering system in your area, I would
suggest using Vespucci (but then I would). Once the address prediction
has kicked in the number survey rate is essentially limited by how fast
you can walk. It is not super stealthy but in my experience good enough.
Alas no iOS version though (but will run on nearly any old phone).

Simon


Am 10.02.2018 um 16:05 schrieb Steve Friedl:
> Happy Saturday, all,
>
> I have a Garmin GPSmap 64st unit that does a fine job of recording tracks, 
> but I’m looking to do foot surveys of house numbers in an area, and for that 
> I’m hoping to find something that has both GPS and audio recording.
>
> Proposed use case is walking along a sidewalk and pressing a button to mark a 
> GPS location, then quietly speak the house number.  I’d use some kind of 
> playback in JOSM to enter all this data. 
>
> I've tried using a standalone audio recorder, but it's way too easy to get 
> out of sync with the waypoints. Actually *entering* house numbers (in Go 
> Map!! on my iPhone would take too long and attract way too much attention.
>
> Rafts of google and bingle searches have brought up nothing except how to spy 
> on my spouse with a covert GPS audio recorder: that’s not what I’m looking 
> for 
>
> I can’t be the first to want this: anybody seen such a thing?
>
> Steve
>
> --- 
> Stephen J Friedl  | Security Consultant | UNIX Wizard | 714 345-4571
> st...@unixwiz.net | Southern California | Windows Guy |  unixwiz.net
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Willoughby, Ohio

[Simon Poole]

The street in question is Stevens Boulevard
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/41.64710/-81.42325 it seems that
there is an issue mainly with trucks and speeding, seems like a 
classical rat run.

There seems to be a "no trucks" restriction and potentially lower max
speed on the road itself (none of which is mapped in OSM), but the input
from the concerned people is rather sketchy (I'll be adding what I've
been able to extract in a couple of minutes). Obviously we are under no
obligation to remove the street, nor would that make any sense at all,
but we can still try and help the people living there.

And yes both the DWG and the LWG regularly receive a small number of
complaints of a similar nature, so it is nothing particularly special
outside of the missing data.

Simon


Am 03.12.2017 um 18:22 schrieb Ian Dees:
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Walter Nordmann  > wrote:
>
> to be more concrete: ask the author of the starting post. i don't
> know anything about that area.
>
> regards
> walter
>
> btw: getting every post twice, strange.
>
>
> Got it. I did ask Simon, but you replied so I thought you were
> answering for him. I'll wait for Simon's reply.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
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[Talk-us] Willoughby, Ohio

[Simon Poole]

We've (data & legal) received a request to remove a street in
Willoughby, Ohio for safety reasons. It does seem as if a couple of
things are rather under mapped there (speed limits, access and so on,
not to mention POIs, but that's a different story). Anybody on the list
in the vicinity that could do a survey or a quick mapillary/OSC run
along it? 

Simon





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Re: [Talk-us] Potential vandalism or very misguided edits near Madison

[Simon Poole]

I did a couple of spot checks of the previous changesets and they all
seem good (outside of the silly changeset comments), so maybe it is a
case of a prankster using the account or something along such lines.

Am 09.11.2017 um 21:13 schrieb Harald Kliems:
> I am local, and yes, there is no good reason/explanation for those
> deletions. Looks like a clear case for a revert. I'm not confident
> enough in my revert abilities, though.
>  Harald, Madison (WI)
>
> On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 2:09 PM Simon Poole <si...@poole.ch
> <mailto:si...@poole.ch>> wrote:
>
> See at least the last 5 or so changesets here
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/JuggernautMapper/history
>
> Walter has already commented on one of the changesets but maybe
> somebody
> local should have a look at the edits and potentially revert.
>
> Simon
>
>
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[Talk-us] Potential vandalism or very misguided edits near Madison

[Simon Poole]

See at least the last 5 or so changesets here
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/JuggernautMapper/history

Walter has already commented on one of the changesets but maybe somebody
local should have a look at the edits and potentially revert.

Simon




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Re: [Talk-us] anyone know what software is generating these Q/A Notes?

[Simon Poole]

We've been having issues on and off for a while now (now and then with a lot 
longer delays than 2 hours), as I understand from Tom this is due to a large 
number of bogus spammy subscription requests.

Simon

On 12 August 2017 02:03:03 CEST, Rihards  wrote:
>On 2017.08.12. 00:11, Max Erickson wrote:
>> It's StreetComplete. Newer versions include the app name in the note:
>> 
>> https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/308
>
>a bit of a sidenote - looks like this email sat in shenron for more
>than
>2 hours.
>
>Received: from localhost ([::1]:51926 helo=shenron.openstreetmap.org)
>   by shenron.openstreetmap.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82)
>   (envelope-from )
>   id 1dgJbu-Su-9H; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 23:45:08 +
>Received: from mail-qt0-x22f.google.com
>([2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::22f]:36137)
>by shenron.openstreetmap.org with esmtps
>(TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128)
> (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from )
> id 1dgHIS-00038M-Ez
> for talk-us@openstreetmap.org; Fri, 11 Aug 2017 21:17:02 +
>
>> Max
>-- 
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>
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Sourcing Open Aerial Imagery

[Simon Poole]

Am 27.07.2017 um 16:23 schrieb Bryan Housel:
> TODO:  We don’t have a template letter, or clear guidelines on which
> imagery licenses are compatible with our use, and we should.
>  See https://github.com/osmlab/editor-layer-index/issues/166 .  Like
> you said in your other email, tracing is very different from
> importing, so the existing ODBL advice is not what we need.
>
>

Just as a clarification: OSM does have guidance and suggested waiver
texts
http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Licence/Waiver_and_Permission_Templates
which is sufficient for use as a background layer in your typical OSM
editor. Note there is an ongoing discussion of some of the finer details
of the scope of the editor-layer-index in project:
https://github.com/osmlab/editor-layer-index/pull/344



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Re: [Talk-us] SEO Damage to OSM

[Simon Poole]

Just to put the whole thing into perspective: the current run rate of
SEO fake accounts in the US seems to be reasonably low. I counted 5 for
the last 7 days, that is roughly 2% of new mappers in the US during
those 7 days.




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Re: [Talk-us] SEO Damage to OSM

[Simon Poole]

Am 05.07.2017 um 17:27 schrieb Greg Morgan:
>
>
> Am 01.07.2017 um 08:33 schrieb Simon Poole:
>
> ...given that we have a known US based SEO company that has created
> (literally) 1000s of such accounts (but with slightly less spammy
> edits), and "we" haven't taken any action, why should we in this case?

I suspect you are barking up the wrong tree, "we" includes everybody in
OSM, nobody seemed to be in the slightest upset about that when I
published the diary post and nobody seemed to be inclined to run after
the SEO  company in question.

>
> How do you know this is all coming from a US based Simon?  How does
> targeting US locations make it an US based company?  If it the same
> occurred in Europe, then I am sure you would have more care and
> concern than you are showing here.  Dude I often cringe when I reas
> what you write in email.
>

Because I manually checked a largish number of the companies (the
subjects of the ads) last year and they had a trivial tell tale
attribute that pointed (as in 100% sure) to an US based SEO company.
That doesn't imply that the accounts that triggered this thread (which
were created before we saw the big influx in 2016) are from an US
company and I didn't say anything of the sort. Just that we didn't go
after an identified non-offshore offender at the time, so there is no
point in suddenly getting upset now about others playing the same or
similar games.

The other point is that we haven't seen a similar increase in fake
accounts in Europe, not that we don't have SEO companies here, but they
seem to operate differently, and indeed a number of them have made
contact with the local OSM communities first before adding anything (and
some haven't). 


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Re: [Talk-us] SEO Damage to OSM

[Simon Poole]

Am 01.07.2017 um 12:48 schrieb Walter Nordmann:

> hi simon,
>
>
> Am 01.07.2017 um 08:33 schrieb Simon Poole:
>>
>> I've already touched on this with the sys admins and saved refs to
>> the ones that I fixed. However it is unlikely that we will do any
>> thing with the information as the accounts are extremely unlikely to
>> be reused, and on the other hand, given that *we have a known US
>> based SEO company that has created (literally) 1000s of such
>> accounts* (but with slightly less spammy edits), and "we" haven't
>> taken any action, why should we in this case?
> what's about a captcha to disable automatic registration? and a
> confirmation mail, which is asking a variable question too?
>
n the case I was referring too, see
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SimonPoole/diary/40246 , we are fairly
sure that it is a sweatshop that is/was adding them. Outside of causing
issues for legitimate users, adding a captcha  is likely not to achieve
anything

Simon


> Regards
> walter aka wambacher
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] SEO Damage to OSM

[Simon Poole]

Am 01.07.2017 um 03:54 schrieb Clifford Snow:
> Simon,
> Thanks for looking at them. Fortunately there wasn't too many to fix
> mannually. Some of vandalism goes back 2 or 3 years if I recall
> correctly. I did check Canada thinking that they might have hit them
> as well, but other than some strange addresses on ways, it was clean.
>
> Ian Dees did fixed the remaining of the problems. 
>
> I plan to look at the original changesets to see if there is any clue
> which company was behind it. Do you know if I gave the systems admin
> people a list of user if they could check the email used to create the
> account belongs to one company?

I've already touched on this with the sys admins and saved refs to the
ones that I fixed. However it is unlikely that we will do any thing with
the information as the accounts are extremely unlikely to be reused, and
on the other hand, given that we have a known US based SEO company that
has created (literally) 1000s of such accounts (but with slightly less
spammy edits), and "we" haven't taken any action, why should we in this
case?

Simon

>
> On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 1:26 PM, Simon Poole <si...@poole.ch
> <mailto:si...@poole.ch>> wrote:
>
> I''m in the process of fixing a couple of these. and I couldn't
> help noticing that some of them can't simply be reverted because
> the TeleNav data team has added lane tagging on them 
>
> Simon
>
>
> Am 30.06.2017 um 18:21 schrieb Clifford Snow:
>> Edits, from what appears to be a search engine optimization
>> company (SEO), have damaged a number of ways in the US. Martijn
>> Van Exel pointed out the problem on Slack the other day. What
>> they did was to add their client to a street, often changing the
>> name of the street to the company.  Fortunately they made it easy
>> to find using overpass [1] by adding in the clients address,
>> phone number, source and website. The query looks for addresses
>> and websites on ways. 
>>
>> West of the Mississippi has been fixed. There are some false
>> positives when running the query, they are all park polygons with
>> both leisure=park and highway=pedestrian. The website url is of
>> the park.
>>
>> If someone would like to help clean up the rest of damage they
>> did, just run the overpass query for an area, state, county, etc.
>> to get a list of ways that match the query. From there just
>> select the way which will open OSM in another tab where you can
>> use your favorite editor to fix. Use the history feature or TIGER
>> data to get the correct road name. The addr:street they added may
>> not be anywhere near your way. 
>>
>> [1] http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/q5A
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Clifford
>>
>> -- 
>> @osm_seattle
>> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us <http://osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us>
>> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-us] SEO Damage to OSM

[Simon Poole]

Am 30.06.2017 um 22:59 schrieb Ian Dees:
> First of all, that's Mapbox's data team that made the changes since
> the SEO editor added junk, not Telenav,

Sorry, but making about a dozen edits on a road (including changing the
tagging) -without- raising an eyebrow about its tagging is not better
than spamming on purpose (in the end they jkust want to improve their
life too, why not give them some slack).

But you obviously believe that mindless mechanical editing is a good
thing ... more power to you is the only thing I can say to that.

Simon


>
> Second: please don't spread your negative attitude on the talk-us
> list. If you don't want to fix the map, then move on and leave it for
> someone else to fix. Don't complain about it. Or if you're going to
> point it out, at least try to use a positive, constructive voice
> rather than a hateful one.
>
> Thanks,
> Ian
>
> On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 4:43 PM, Simon Poole <si...@poole.ch
> <mailto:si...@poole.ch>> wrote:
>
> I would suggest that TeleNav fixes the mess they made here
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/402471851#map=18/34.18198/-118.39599
> <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/402471851#map=18/34.18198/-118.39599>
> themselves.
>
>
> Am 30.06.2017 um 22:26 schrieb Simon Poole:
>>
>> I''m in the process of fixing a couple of these. and I couldn't
>> help noticing that some of them can't simply be reverted because
>> the TeleNav data team has added lane tagging on them 
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>> Am 30.06.2017 um 18:21 schrieb Clifford Snow:
>>> Edits, from what appears to be a search engine optimization
>>> company (SEO), have damaged a number of ways in the US. Martijn
>>> Van Exel pointed out the problem on Slack the other day. What
>>> they did was to add their client to a street, often changing the
>>> name of the street to the company.  Fortunately they made it
>>> easy to find using overpass [1] by adding in the clients
>>> address, phone number, source and website. The query looks for
>>> addresses and websites on ways. 
>>>
>>> West of the Mississippi has been fixed. There are some false
>>> positives when running the query, they are all park polygons
>>> with both leisure=park and highway=pedestrian. The website url
>>> is of the park.
>>>
>>> If someone would like to help clean up the rest of damage they
>>> did, just run the overpass query for an area, state, county,
>>> etc. to get a list of ways that match the query. From there just
>>> select the way which will open OSM in another tab where you can
>>> use your favorite editor to fix. Use the history feature or
>>> TIGER data to get the correct road name. The addr:street they
>>> added may not be anywhere near your way. 
>>>
>>> [1] http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/q5A
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Clifford
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> @osm_seattle
>>> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us <http://osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us>
>>> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-us] SEO Damage to OSM

[Simon Poole]

I would suggest that TeleNav fixes the mess they made here
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/402471851#map=18/34.18198/-118.39599
themselves.


Am 30.06.2017 um 22:26 schrieb Simon Poole:
>
> I''m in the process of fixing a couple of these. and I couldn't help
> noticing that some of them can't simply be reverted because the
> TeleNav data team has added lane tagging on them 
>
> Simon
>
>
> Am 30.06.2017 um 18:21 schrieb Clifford Snow:
>> Edits, from what appears to be a search engine optimization company
>> (SEO), have damaged a number of ways in the US. Martijn Van Exel
>> pointed out the problem on Slack the other day. What they did was to
>> add their client to a street, often changing the name of the street
>> to the company.  Fortunately they made it easy to find using overpass
>> [1] by adding in the clients address, phone number, source and
>> website. The query looks for addresses and websites on ways. 
>>
>> West of the Mississippi has been fixed. There are some false
>> positives when running the query, they are all park polygons with
>> both leisure=park and highway=pedestrian. The website url is of the park.
>>
>> If someone would like to help clean up the rest of damage they did,
>> just run the overpass query for an area, state, county, etc. to get a
>> list of ways that match the query. From there just select the way
>> which will open OSM in another tab where you can use your favorite
>> editor to fix. Use the history feature or TIGER data to get the
>> correct road name. The addr:street they added may not be anywhere
>> near your way. 
>>
>> [1] http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/q5A
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Clifford
>>
>> -- 
>> @osm_seattle
>> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us <http://osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us>
>> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>>
>>
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>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] SEO Damage to OSM

[Simon Poole]

A good example is "Box-n-Go Self Storage North" road in North Hollywood
(I believe it should really be Laurel Canyon Boulevard) I would suggest
TeleNav cleaning that up themselves.


Am 30.06.2017 um 22:26 schrieb Simon Poole:
>
> I''m in the process of fixing a couple of these. and I couldn't help
> noticing that some of them can't simply be reverted because the
> TeleNav data team has added lane tagging on them 
>
> Simon
>
>
> Am 30.06.2017 um 18:21 schrieb Clifford Snow:
>> Edits, from what appears to be a search engine optimization company
>> (SEO), have damaged a number of ways in the US. Martijn Van Exel
>> pointed out the problem on Slack the other day. What they did was to
>> add their client to a street, often changing the name of the street
>> to the company.  Fortunately they made it easy to find using overpass
>> [1] by adding in the clients address, phone number, source and
>> website. The query looks for addresses and websites on ways. 
>>
>> West of the Mississippi has been fixed. There are some false
>> positives when running the query, they are all park polygons with
>> both leisure=park and highway=pedestrian. The website url is of the park.
>>
>> If someone would like to help clean up the rest of damage they did,
>> just run the overpass query for an area, state, county, etc. to get a
>> list of ways that match the query. From there just select the way
>> which will open OSM in another tab where you can use your favorite
>> editor to fix. Use the history feature or TIGER data to get the
>> correct road name. The addr:street they added may not be anywhere
>> near your way. 
>>
>> [1] http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/q5A
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Clifford
>>
>> -- 
>> @osm_seattle
>> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us <http://osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us>
>> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-us] SEO Damage to OSM

[Simon Poole]

I''m in the process of fixing a couple of these. and I couldn't help
noticing that some of them can't simply be reverted because the TeleNav
data team has added lane tagging on them 

Simon


Am 30.06.2017 um 18:21 schrieb Clifford Snow:
> Edits, from what appears to be a search engine optimization company
> (SEO), have damaged a number of ways in the US. Martijn Van Exel
> pointed out the problem on Slack the other day. What they did was to
> add their client to a street, often changing the name of the street to
> the company.  Fortunately they made it easy to find using overpass [1]
> by adding in the clients address, phone number, source and website.
> The query looks for addresses and websites on ways. 
>
> West of the Mississippi has been fixed. There are some false positives
> when running the query, they are all park polygons with both
> leisure=park and highway=pedestrian. The website url is of the park.
>
> If someone would like to help clean up the rest of damage they did,
> just run the overpass query for an area, state, county, etc. to get a
> list of ways that match the query. From there just select the way
> which will open OSM in another tab where you can use your favorite
> editor to fix. Use the history feature or TIGER data to get the
> correct road name. The addr:street they added may not be anywhere near
> your way. 
>
> [1] http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/q5A
>
> Thanks,
> Clifford
>
> -- 
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us 
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Data team mapping buildings in Fort Worth and Dallas

[Simon Poole]

Andrew, could you perhaps weigh in on
https://github.com/osmlab/editor-layer-index/issues/281 ? It seems to be
rather silly to not be showing the best imagery as default in the
editors (as I suspect we are doing for Texas).

Thanks

Simon


On 25.05.2017 18:10, Andrew Matheny wrote:
> Jinal-
>
> I would recommend using the Texas Orthophoto imagery for this area.
>
> Back when I was importing the Building footprints for Dallas, I
> noticed the Bing imagery in the Dallas-Fort Worth area is at least 5
> years old.
>
> The Texas Orthophoto imagery is flown every year and I believe what
> shows now is from January 2017.
>
> Also, for what its worth, I believe the City of Fort Worth has
> building footprints that could be imported, but we just need to get
> the explicit permission.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Andrew Matheny
>
> On Thursday, May 25, 2017, Jinal Foflia  > wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> > This is Jinal Foflia and I work with the Mapbox's Data team [0]. Our
> > team is planning to work on improving the building footprints in
> Fort Worth and Dallas [1] on OpenStreetMap. You can track the progress
> in our /mapping ticket [2]. Let us know if you have any feedback,
> please post in this thread or in the ticket. 
> >
> > [0] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mapbox#Mapbox_Data_Team
> > [1] http://tasks.openstreetmap.us/project/95
> > [2] https://github.com/mapbox/mapping/issues/297
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jinal Foflia
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Choptank River

[Simon Poole]

Am 16.01.2017 um 15:08 schrieb Christoph Hormann:

> On Sunday 15 January 2017, Simon Poole wrote:
>> Given that Washington is supposedly the global centre of mapping
>> goodness, I hope we might be able to find somebody there that perhaps
>> is interested in fixing the, I must say with 120km really far away,
>> area a bit.
> Note the phenomenon that we have well mapped urban centres immediately 
> next to extremely poorly mapped areas is something not specific to the 
> US at all.
>
> My favorite example for this is usually Singapore where you can find 
> some extremely badly mapped areas less than 50km to the south:
I wasn't aware that there were organisations in Singapore that are are
suggesting mapping everywhere except on your own doorstep, but thanks
for clarifying that.

Simon




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[Talk-us] Choptank River

[Simon Poole]

While investigating a complaint to legal today in the vicinity of Denton
Maryland, I couldn't help noticing that while Choptank River has a
horribly broken, imported river bank, it seems to be missing the river.
See for example  http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=14/38.9018/-75.8339

Given that Washington is supposedly the global centre of mapping
goodness, I hope we might be able to find somebody there that perhaps is
interested in fixing the, I must say with 120km really far away, area a bit.

Simon




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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Simon Poole]

The ODbL is very clear on what "Publicly" is:

“Publicly” – means to Persons other than You or under Your control by
either more than 50% ownership or by the power to direct their
activities (such as contracting with an independent consultant).

No need to speculate on that point.

On the other hand, if they were using OSM data to trigger to spawning in
a specific locations it would still be rather open if that is actually a
use that is substantial. Up to now I haven't seen any evidence that
couldn't be explained in numerous other ways that they are really using
OSM data.

Simon


Am 30.12.2016 um 22:08 schrieb Bill Ricker:
>
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 3:43 PM, Clifford Snow
> > wrote:
>
>
> Can you help me understand what part of the ODbL [1] they are
> violating? As far I can tell, they don't modify the data nor do
> they display OSM tiles or make any of the data available
>
>
> (​It was not my assertion, I was hypothetically answering a HOW question.)
>
> OTOH & IANAL
>
> Hypothetically speaking,
> Not making available tiles or data extracts based on OSM data 
> relieves a hypothetical potential infringer from having to make data
> available (Share Alike & Keep Open clauses).
> Any published use* requires Attribution.
> * (Which i interpret as non-intramural use, not contained within a
> household or corporate entity, although that is the sort of think
> lawyers could argue. It's safest to attribute even intramural use
> cases, but not required by license.)
>
> If indeed they are reaping OSM nodes and ways to populate PoGo
> rookeries [an unproven assertion], that would make the whole game a
> "use ... or work[s] produced from the database" and if PoGo doesn't
> count as "public", I don't know what is.  (The players are not
> employees, contractors, or family members of Niantic Labs.)
>
> Hiding the _use_ of OSM data doesn't make the derived work private;
> only hiding the derived work (game, web map, whatever) does; and i
> doubt having to register to play the game would be accepted as making
> all Niantic properties "private" not "public".
> (IANAL but I would wonder if hiding the use could be construed as
> willful and malicious infringement.)
> (If Niantic claims any copyright in their work, it is by definition of
> "copyright" a "published" work. In theory Trade Secret, Patent, and
> Copyright are incompatible IP protections. Only TradeMark plays nicely
> with others.)
>
> #IANAL
>
>
>
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> bill.n1...@gmail.com 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux 
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Re: [Talk-us] API Behavior

[Simon Poole]

Am 26.02.2016 um 18:09 schrieb Richard Welty:
>
> the problem is that detecting the condition is pretty expensive.
> consider long, straight boundaries that pass through your
> bounding box. the search to find these segments of ways
> might have to range out pretty far.
>
>
Pretty far == the whole dataset/the world

Naturally that is simply the extreme case.

 I always recommend to add a node even in completely straight lines
every couple of dozens of meters/yards to be on the safe side and to
keep everything editable.

Forgetting the extreme case, maybe we should have some kind of bounding
box based index for ways and relations (note we don't use PostGIS and it
wouldn't actually help in this case, so this would have to be home grown
in some form), naturally calculating the bounding box would make many
operations that are now very cheap rather expensive.

Simon



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Re: [Talk-us] QA tool to find duplicate addresses?

[Simon Poole]

I believe "Street numbers" is what you need to select.

On 7. Dezember 2015 01:12:11 MEZ, Tod Fitch <t...@fitchdesign.com> wrote:
>Figured out the link to the English version where the filter says
>“duplicate object”. I don’t see any other check boxes that look like
>the will find this type of error.
>
>
>> On Dec 6, 2015, at 5:09 PM, Tod Fitch <t...@fitchdesign.com> wrote:
>> 
>> My German is really bad. I assume that the check I want is "doppeltes
>Objekt”. But that does not do what I want as the objects are not
>actually duplicated. Rather I have multiple nodes that happen to have
>the same addr:street and addr:housenumber combinations.
>> 
>> For example, looking at:
>>
>http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/de/map/#zoom=15=33.21048=-117.23788=Mapnik=T=4080=1==
>> or
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/33.21048/-117.23788
>> 
>> In this case my check script shows the following possible duplicate
>addresses (setup so I can copy and paste them into a JOSM search) so I
>can examine them and see if I can remove the incorrect one(s). None of
>these possible errors are shown by OSMOSE with the options I have,
>possibly erroneously, set.
>> 
>> Duplicate addresses:
>>"addr:street"="Alta Mesa Drive" ("addr:housenumber"="222")
>>"addr:street"="Calle Jules" ("addr:housenumber"="1370")
>>"addr:street"="Camino Ciego Court" ("addr:housenumber"="1093")
>>"addr:street"="Camino Patricia" ("addr:housenumber"="115")
>>"addr:street"="Cortez Avenue" ("addr:housenumber"="636")
>>"addr:street"="East Drive" ("addr:housenumber"="321")
>>"addr:street"="East Indian Rock Road" ("addr:housenumber"="415")
>>"addr:street"="East Indian Rock Road" ("addr:housenumber"="436")
>>"addr:street"="East Vista Way" ("addr:housenumber"="651")
>>"addr:street"="Escondido Avenue" ("addr:housenumber"="510")
>>"addr:street"="Eucalyptus Avenue" ("addr:housenumber"="663")
>>"addr:street"="Girard Court" ("addr:housenumber"="1259")
>>"addr:street"="Goetting Way" ("addr:housenumber"="235")
>>"addr:street"="Hillside Terrace" ("addr:housenumber"="332")
>>"addr:street"="North Citrus Avenue" ("addr:housenumber"="1280")
>>"addr:street"="North Citrus Avenue" ("addr:housenumber"="900")
>>"addr:street"="North Melrose Drive" ("addr:housenumber"="1130")
>>"addr:street"="North Melrose Drive" ("addr:housenumber"="1132")
>>"addr:street"="North Melrose Drive" ("addr:housenumber"="1146")
>>"addr:street"="North Santa Fe Avenue" ("addr:housenumber"="1305")
>>"addr:street"="North Santa Fe Avenue" ("addr:housenumber"="1502")
>>"addr:street"="North Santa Fe Avenue" ("addr:housenumber"="428")
>>"addr:street"="Olive Avenue" ("addr:housenumber"="536")
>>"addr:street"="Palm Drive" ("addr:housenumber"="438")
>>"addr:street"="Plymouth Drive" ("addr:housenumber"="121")
>>"addr:street"="Plymouth Drive" ("addr:housenumber"="415")
>>"addr:street"="Rudd Road" ("addr:housenumber"="219")
>>"addr:street"="Shadow Mountain Terrace"
>("addr:housenumber"="1144")
>>"addr:street"="South Santa Fe Avenue" ("addr:housenumber"="102")
>>"addr:street"="South Santa Fe Avenue" ("addr:housenumber"="315")
>>"addr:street"="Sunrise Drive" ("addr:housenumber"="1857")
>>"addr:street"="Townsite Drive" ("addr:housenumber"="225")
>>"addr:street"="Truly Terrace

Re: [Talk-us] QA tool to find duplicate addresses?

[Simon Poole]

OSMOSE does that http://osmose.openstreetmap.fr/de/map/

Am 07.12.2015 um 00:06 schrieb Tod Fitch:
> I’ve come across data from an old address import that seems to have numerous 
> duplicate addresses. It would be nice to point JOSM to the places with the 
> most problems rather than to just randomly choose a place for editing.
>
> It looks like there is a tool that identifies places with duplicate addresses 
> at http://gulp21.bplaced.net/osm/housenumbervalidator/ but it seems to be 
> specific to Germany. Is there any that cover the US?
>
> Thanks!
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Re: [Talk-us] Gosh ... something about mapping ...

[Simon Poole]

Well ... the definitions are very fuzzy  (this is just so that you are
aware that there is potential for conflict): mopeds* are in general just
low displacement motorcycles, historically with pedals , but that is
typically no longer a legal requirement. For example there are scooters
that fall in this class. Mofas on the other hand, where the class
exists, typically have a requirement for pedals (adding pedelecs in to
the mix just makes things more complicated so leaving that away for now).

Obviously a moped without pedals is fairly dead when the motor isn't
running :-)

Simon

* just to confuse things in Germany it is colloquially quite common to
refer to any motorcycle as "moped" (even my 1300cc beemer)

Am 02.12.2015 um 10:13 schrieb Paul Johnson:
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:30 AM, Simon Poole <si...@poole.ch
> <mailto:si...@poole.ch>> wrote:
>
>
> I've changed the relevant tags to moped=no. Any opinion on if
> mopeds would be included in "motor vehicles"? I don't think I've
> ever seen a mofa in the states (I find people on Vespas in the
> states already fairly brave) but what about pedelecs and similar?
>
>
> A moped would qualify as both a motor vehicle and a bicycle, which it
> is (and whether or not it can use bicycle lanes and cycleways) is
> determined by whether or not the motor is running. 
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Gosh ... something about mapping ...

[Simon Poole]

Ben

See http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/

Your point is exactly why I'm asking for feedback. Particularly vehicle
classifications tend to differ quite a bit between countries, even in
those that are signatories to the Vienna convention (which the US is not).

Simon

Am 01.12.2015 um 15:22 schrieb Ben Miller:
> I'm not familiar with the MUTCD, and a little Googling didn't get me
> any clarification, but I'm guessing that "motor-driven cycles" refers
> to mopeds and such, not to motorcycles.
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 8:21 AM Simon Poole <si...@poole.ch
> <mailto:si...@poole.ch>> wrote:
>
> To give us all a break from the usual political machinations at this
> time of year I've drawn up the following table
>
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/US_MUTCD_exclusionary_signs_to_OSM_access
>
> The context is the work I've been doing on
> https://github.com/simonpoole/beautified-JOSM-preset which is the
> default preset for Vespucci http://vespucci.io/ (obviously on mobile
> devices being able to touch an icon is preferable to typing).
>
> Any opinions on the mappings, and what would you consider signs
> that you
> frequently map?
>
> Feedback and patches welcome!
>
> Simon
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Gosh ... something about mapping ...

[Simon Poole]

I've changed the relevant tags to moped=no. Any opinion on if mopeds
would be included in "motor vehicles"? I don't think I've ever seen a
mofa in the states (I find people on Vespas in the states already fairly
brave) but what about pedelecs and similar?

Simon

Am 01.12.2015 um 15:36 schrieb Elliott Plack:
> Ben,
>
> I believe you're right, nice catch! "Motor bicycles and scooters:
> Mopeds should be included with motor-driven cycles (motor bicycles) in
> the States"
> (http://mrf.org/library2/index.php/legislation-language/definitions/definition-motorcycle/fhwa-reclassification-of-motorcycles/)
>
> Additionally the one about "Non-Motorized" vehicles is somewhat
> confusing and I don't think that I've ever seen it used. A bicycle is
> non-motorized, but so is the trailer on a truck. What does it mean?
>
> Elliott
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:23 AM Ben Miller <bborkmil...@gmail.com
> <mailto:bborkmil...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I'm not familiar with the MUTCD, and a little Googling didn't get
> me any clarification, but I'm guessing that "motor-driven cycles"
> refers to mopeds and such, not to motorcycles.
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 8:21 AM Simon Poole <si...@poole.ch
> <mailto:si...@poole.ch>> wrote:
>
> To give us all a break from the usual political machinations
> at this
> time of year I've drawn up the following table
>
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/US_MUTCD_exclusionary_signs_to_OSM_access
>
> The context is the work I've been doing on
> https://github.com/simonpoole/beautified-JOSM-preset which is the
> default preset for Vespucci http://vespucci.io/ (obviously on
> mobile
> devices being able to touch an icon is preferable to typing).
>
> Any opinions on the mappings, and what would you consider
> signs that you
> frequently map?
>
> Feedback and patches welcome!
>
> Simon
>
>
> ___
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> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org <mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org>
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
> -- 
> Elliott Plack
> http://elliottplack.me 



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[Talk-us] Gosh ... something about mapping ...

[Simon Poole]

To give us all a break from the usual political machinations at this
time of year I've drawn up the following table

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/US_MUTCD_exclusionary_signs_to_OSM_access

The context is the work I've been doing on 
https://github.com/simonpoole/beautified-JOSM-preset which is the
default preset for Vespucci http://vespucci.io/ (obviously on mobile
devices being able to touch an icon is preferable to typing).

Any opinions on the mappings, and what would you consider signs that you
frequently map?

Feedback and patches welcome!

Simon




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Re: [Talk-us] GeoBadges 1.0 for OpenStreetMap

[Simon Poole]

It was very late this morning when I wrote that and I think I need to
clarify a bit further after a bit of sleep.

Yesterday OSM had edits in 165 countries, now while that doesn't
directly give us information on how many countries we actually have
contributors in, I think it is safe to assume that we have dozens of
different legislations to deal with. The OSMF, at least in the past, has
not made prescriptive statements or even just given guidance as to who
can sign up, who can map, where they can map and so on. For example
there are no statements on participation from countries where mapping
might be illegal. In general we simply assume that the locals know what
they are doing.

So not having anything formal from the OSMF on COPPA is not a surprise,
it should be expected. The topic itself however has had a relative high
visibility due to the US connection and the resulting fear of
enforcement if OSM was to specifically target youths in the US, as
already pointed out this was mostly before the 2013 COPPA revision.

That said, it is by far not the only issue that we are ignoring wrt
participation from minors for example they typically can't actually
enter in to contracts (at least not without lots of caveats and specific
further age limits) which would effect the validity of our sign up
process as it currently is.

If the board considers it worthwhile, the LWG could take this on and see
if there is a way to handle this (likely by some form of parental
consent) during the sign up process without creating a cascade of
further problems.

Simon

PS: given that this is slowly getting very off topic , I would suggest
carrying on the discussion on the legal-talk list.

Am 18.11.2015 um 02:26 schrieb Simon Poole:
>
>
> Am 18.11.2015 um 01:26 schrieb Kate Chapman:
>> Hi Simon,
>>
>> The groups releasing Geobadges "TeachOSM with support from
>> Mapstory.org and American Geographical Society" are not large
>> multi-million dollar US organizations. None of them have highly paid
>> in-house lawyers. Thank you for pointing out the legislation, do you
>> hangout on all of the other country specific lists to point
>> out legislation to people?
>>
>> I was an active member of the community in 2009 and I'm unaware of
>> any specific discussions of this nature. There have been efforts to
>> perform outreach to high schools and scouts at least since that time.
>> If something was too sensitive to minute, then how is anyone supposed
>> to know that is the case?
>>
>>
> The 2009 public discussions were, well, public, and mainly in the
> context of the contributor terms and other T (see the legal-talk
> archives), further there is at least one draft of a OSM privacy policy
> with relevant text (which likely started to bitrot immediately) see
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Privacy_Policy_-_Discussion_Draft#Children
> .
>
> As to other records, there are two problems: a) the OSMF wiki site
> isn't searchable so finding something is near impossible, and b) there
> is no guarantee that something was minuted in the first place,
> particularly if it was advice received from counsel (former boards
> have been very concerned about that) As a result I can just relate
> hearsay that the board or at least the subset that made up the LWG at
> the time, was informed and aware of the issue.
>
> Simon
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] GeoBadges 1.0 for OpenStreetMap

[Simon Poole]

I assume that you have got legal advice on the COPPA related
consequences of your activities and are willing to share this with the OSMF?

Simon

Am 17.11.2015 um 02:45 schrieb Steven Johnson:
> Hello list,
>
> Just in time for #OSMGeoweek, TeachOSM with support from Mapstory.org
> and American Geographical Society, has released the first
> OpenStreetMap Surveyor I badge.[1] 
>
> The badge is aimed at the newest open mappers of any age and is
> awarded for successful acquisition of basic editing skills on
> OpenStreetMap. We envision this badge to be the first in a
> constellation of more specialized badges based on skill sets, domains,
> area knowledge, and so forth. For more info on the mechanics of
> GeoBadges, see the AGS blog post[2].
>
> We have a special deal during OSMGeoweek: Anyone who maps in any of
> the #100Mapathons, #MissingMaps, #PeaceCorps, or #HOT events during
> OSMGeoweek will be eligible to claim the badge. Just make sure to
> comment your changeset with one of the 2015 OSMGeoweek hashtags so we
> can find it. 
>
> Happy Mapping, everyone...
>
> [1] http://bit.ly/1NAhybF
> [2] http://bit.ly/1Pwsi0G  
> -- SEJ
> -- twitter: @geomantic
> -- skype: sejohnson8
>
> "Wretches, utter wretches, keep your hands off beans!" - v.141, /On
> Nature, /Empedocles
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] GeoBadges 1.0 for OpenStreetMap

[Simon Poole]

Hi Kate

The changes on Geobadges are naturally OK (in a way, more see below)  it
just isn't backed up by measures on the OSMF side. Aka we don't do any
age checking at all and I'm slightly concerned that addressing US youths
and only having (whatever) enforcement for half of the equation is not
such a good idea. I'm further slightly concerned that multi-million
budget US based organisations, likely with dozens of highly paid
in-house lawyers, need me to point out their local legislation to them.

The more general, relevant for OSM, issue is that we should fix the
problem properly where we can, given that sooner or later we wont be
able to ignore it. And it seems that it is now "sooner".  Either arrange
things that we are either exempt from getting consent from the parents,
having a procedure in place for this to be documented or at least some
measures in place that outline what the potential dangers are (doodling
"my home" on the map has a different quality if a 60 year does it than a
10 year old) . 

To be clear: "I" don't want to exclude a 12 year old US resident that is
interested in collecting  data in their neighbourhood from making
surveying for OSM their hobby*, as a result I'm slightly unhappy with
the above, but short term it is likely the only thing we can do.

As to "people all over the world are encouraging teenagers": there are
likely numerous other countries where their is similar legislation. it
is simply that the US is a  well known case. The oldest discussions of
this go back to at least 2009 (before I was an active member of the
community). From the LWG side, if I'm not totally mistaken, the policy
has always been to not specifically target children and youths. This may
have been considered so sensitive that it was never minuted,, but the
current and past board members that were involved are well aware of this.

Simon


* personal opinion as a parent is that I don't see a value in trying to
get kids to spend even more time in from of a screen simply arm
chairing, but going outside collecting stuff, great.

Am 17.11.2015 um 22:11 schrieb Kate Chapman:
> Hi Simon,
>
> What do you mean by address the OSM side of things? People all over
> the world are encouraging teenagers to contribute to OSM, this has
> been on going for years. Steven removed the part which encouraged
> people under the age of 13. What is the issue?
>
> -Kate
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Simon Poole <si...@poole.ch
> <mailto:si...@poole.ch>> wrote:
>
> Thais good, but doesn't address the OSM side of things.
>
> Historically, aka pre 2013 revision of COPPA, we couldn't touch
> sub 13teeners with a long pole. That may have improved a bit,
> theoretically, with the 2013 revision of COPPA, but nobody has
> actually done the foot- and paperwork involved to find out and
> address any issues.
>
> I don't want to dig too deep in to the things that might be
> considered problematic given general US paranoia on such topics,
> but I would consider completely ignoring this a bit risky.
>
> Simon
>
>
> Am 17.11.2015 um 19:03 schrieb Steven Johnson:
>> Hi Simon,
>> The developers selected the Credly platform specifically so that
>> the OSM community is not in the business of collecting and
>> managing personally identifiable information (PII). Also, we're
>> doing two things to insure GeoBadges users understand terms and
>> conditions of the badging process:
>>
>> 1. We're adding language to the 'About' section of the site to
>> clarify the relationship: /"//For GeoBadge earning and issuing,
>> we work with the Credly.com platform. Credly manages all
>> earner-level data and security. By partnering with Credly, we can
>> help earners increase the impact of their achievements by sharing
>> it on social media platforms and connecting to other digital
>> badging projects that also use Credly. To learn more about
>> Credly, visit credly.com <http://credly.com/>./
>> /
>> /
>> /GeoBadges complies with the COPPA and DCMA laws of the United
>> States. Only individuals age 13+ are eligible to earn GeoBadges.
>> If any content on the site seems inappropriate or out of
>> compliance, please contact us immediately
>> at geobad...@americangeo.org <mailto:geobad...@americangeo.org>."/
>> /
>> /
>> 2. We're removing the Grade 3-5 option, since clearly that would
>> be marketed to under 13.
>>
>> Thanks for your concern. Hope I've addressed your question. Best
>> regards,
>>
>>
>> -- SEJ
>> -- twitter: @geomantic
>>

Re: [Talk-us] GeoBadges 1.0 for OpenStreetMap

[Simon Poole]

Am 18.11.2015 um 01:26 schrieb Kate Chapman:
> Hi Simon,
>
> The groups releasing Geobadges "TeachOSM with support from
> Mapstory.org and American Geographical Society" are not large
> multi-million dollar US organizations. None of them have highly paid
> in-house lawyers. Thank you for pointing out the legislation, do you
> hangout on all of the other country specific lists to point
> out legislation to people?
>
> I was an active member of the community in 2009 and I'm unaware of any
> specific discussions of this nature. There have been efforts to
> perform outreach to high schools and scouts at least since that time.
> If something was too sensitive to minute, then how is anyone supposed
> to know that is the case?
>
>
The 2009 public discussions were, well, public, and mainly in the
context of the contributor terms and other T (see the legal-talk
archives), further there is at least one draft of a OSM privacy policy
with relevant text (which likely started to bitrot immediately) see
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Privacy_Policy_-_Discussion_Draft#Children
.

As to other records, there are two problems: a) the OSMF wiki site isn't
searchable so finding something is near impossible, and b) there is no
guarantee that something was minuted in the first place, particularly if
it was advice received from counsel (former boards have been very
concerned about that) As a result I can just relate hearsay that the
board or at least the subset that made up the LWG at the time, was
informed and aware of the issue.

Simon



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Re: [Talk-us] GeoBadges 1.0 for OpenStreetMap

[Simon Poole]

Thais good, but doesn't address the OSM side of things.

Historically, aka pre 2013 revision of COPPA, we couldn't touch sub
13teeners with a long pole. That may have improved a bit, theoretically,
with the 2013 revision of COPPA, but nobody has actually done the foot-
and paperwork involved to find out and address any issues.

I don't want to dig too deep in to the things that might be considered
problematic given general US paranoia on such topics, but I would
consider completely ignoring this a bit risky.

Simon

Am 17.11.2015 um 19:03 schrieb Steven Johnson:
> Hi Simon,
> The developers selected the Credly platform specifically so that the
> OSM community is not in the business of collecting and managing
> personally identifiable information (PII). Also, we're doing two
> things to insure GeoBadges users understand terms and conditions of
> the badging process:
>
> 1. We're adding language to the 'About' section of the site to clarify
> the relationship: /"//For GeoBadge earning and issuing, we work with
> the Credly.com platform. Credly manages all earner-level data and
> security. By partnering with Credly, we can help earners increase the
> impact of their achievements by sharing it on social media platforms
> and connecting to other digital badging projects that also use Credly.
> To learn more about Credly, visit credly.com <http://credly.com/>./
> /
> /
> /GeoBadges complies with the COPPA and DCMA laws of the United States.
> Only individuals age 13+ are eligible to earn GeoBadges. If any
> content on the site seems inappropriate or out of compliance, please
> contact us immediately at geobad...@americangeo.org
> <mailto:geobad...@americangeo.org>."/
> /
> /
> 2. We're removing the Grade 3-5 option, since clearly that would be
> marketed to under 13.
>
> Thanks for your concern. Hope I've addressed your question. Best regards,
>
>
> -- SEJ
> -- twitter: @geomantic
> -- skype: sejohnson8
>
> "Wretches, utter wretches, keep your hands off beans!" - v.141, /On
> Nature, /Empedocles
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 6:59 AM, Simon Poole <si...@poole.ch
> <mailto:si...@poole.ch>> wrote:
>
>
> I assume that you have got legal advice on the COPPA related
> consequences of your activities and are willing to share this with
> the OSMF?
>
> Simon
>
>
> Am 17.11.2015 um 02:45 schrieb Steven Johnson:
>> Hello list,
>>
>> Just in time for #OSMGeoweek, TeachOSM with support from
>> Mapstory.org and American Geographical Society, has released the
>> first OpenStreetMap Surveyor I badge.[1] 
>>
>> The badge is aimed at the newest open mappers of any age and is
>> awarded for successful acquisition of basic editing skills on
>> OpenStreetMap. We envision this badge to be the first in a
>> constellation of more specialized badges based on skill sets,
>> domains, area knowledge, and so forth. For more info on the
>> mechanics of GeoBadges, see the AGS blog post[2].
>>
>> We have a special deal during OSMGeoweek: Anyone who maps in any
>> of the #100Mapathons, #MissingMaps, #PeaceCorps, or #HOT events
>> during OSMGeoweek will be eligible to claim the badge. Just make
>> sure to comment your changeset with one of the 2015 OSMGeoweek
>> hashtags so we can find it. 
>>
>> Happy Mapping, everyone...
>>
>> [1] http://bit.ly/1NAhybF
>> [2] http://bit.ly/1Pwsi0G <https://t.co/nfsoqNYFvW> 
>> -- SEJ
>> -- twitter: @geomantic
>> -- skype: sejohnson8
>>
>> "Wretches, utter wretches, keep your hands off beans!" -
>> v.141, /On Nature, /Empedocles
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>



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Re: [Talk-us] Increasing the number of US Mappers

[Simon Poole]

A quick reality check: forget scraping stuff from FB or any other
commercial operator of similar services (for legal/ToS reasons).

And second: there is already the OSM forums which, depending on region,
are quite popular.

Further: none-of the above are really a replacement for a  integrated
group facility which can support very fine grained and self-organized
grouping of contributors with common interests (or whatever).

Simon

Am 16.10.2015 um 04:59 schrieb stevea:




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Re: [Talk-us] OpenStreetMap US elections: October 12 townhall with candidates

[Simon Poole]

No, I'm not going to tell you who to vote for in the elections :-).

However I believe there is some substantial misunderstanding of the
numbers involved.

Martijn noted in his manifesto that the daily editors numbers was flat
for the US and Michael used that as one of the corner points in his
diary post. However the daily editor number is the slowest growing
metric for OSM in general increasing from roughly 2000/day to 3000/day
since 2012, compared to that the growth in the US since 2012 is from
roughly 100 to 250 and there is no indication that it is stagnating at
all. In comparison the same metric has been flat in D-A-CH over the same
period. IMHO I don't see any indications that this is a real issue, it
is likely more a result of partial exhaustion of some of the well mapped
areas.

Now Martijn is correct in focusing on contributor growth in that the US
community is relatively speaking substantially smaller that say D-A-CH
and is still falling behind (new mappers last 7 days  D-A-CH 266, US
229, population D-A-CH roughly 1/3 of the US). Note: community still
growing substantially in D-A-CH despite the stagnating daily editor metric.

But the thing to take away from the above is that the US is nowhere near
saturation and there's plenty of room for improvement and if anything,
the numbers indicate that you are slowly digging yourself out of the
TIGER hole.

Now as how to facilitate growth, I don't have a recipe. Matter of fact I
tend to be a bit fatalistic about it, in that I don't believe the
underlying trend can be directly influenced at all, it is trivial to
create blips but over time they vanish in the noise.

I would however side with Andy in that what does seem to have some
lasting effect is constant news coverage. Vastly overrated in that
respect are mapping parties which are great as a fun focal point for the
community, but are hopeless at any measurable increase in new mappers.

Simon

PS: I do admit that I had to chuckle at the realisation in some of the
manifestos that SOTM-US size was/is a self-inflicted rat race.







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Re: [Talk-us] Best iOS app for GPS wander, GPX to laptop into OSM?

[Simon Poole]

Am 06.10.2015 um 08:55 schrieb Peter Dobratz:
...
a lot of stuff I was  just going to write :-)
...


In any case, I believe it is important not to get trapped in the "old"
way of doing things. For the majority* of edits the "modern" (excluding
on device editing which actually works fine) way is

- collecting geo-referenced information with the camera in your phone
(including the cardinal direction you are pointing it in)

- adding/improving geometry from aerial imagery

Alas iD currently only supports the former via mapillary, which doesn't
really work in a mapping party scenario and introduces additional
unnecessary complications for newbies (not to mention that there is lots
of stuff people photograph that they don't actually want to upload to a
public service), so you are really stuck with JOSM for an integrated
work flow.

Getting the photographs on to your laptop/desktop need not be more
complicated that having any one of the "webserver on the mobile" apps
installed.


* naturally there are plenty of special cases, special regions etc.
where this doesn't apply

Simon

PS: the iD issue is not new https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/1502



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Re: [Talk-us] Best iOS app for GPS wander, GPX to laptop into OSM?

[Simon Poole]

Besides having all the issues Keypadmapper has squared, how do you
prevent IP leakage from google to OSM? For example do you know if it
employs any "lock on road" or similar technology?

Simon

Am 06.10.2015 um 17:47 schrieb Adam Franco:
> For trail surveys and other GPS recording on Android I've been very
> happy with Google's "My Tracks" app:
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.maps.mytracks=en
>
> It's pretty easy to use just hit "record", then allows the addition of
> markers & photos while recording -- though I have only used markers
> myself.
> After one is done recording, the track can be exported as a GPX file
> and then sent to a computer via USB/Bluetooth/Dropbox or any other
> transfer method enabled on your phone.
>
> I've also tried doing surveys with OsmAnd, but found that the
> recording was much less stable and would often get interrupted and
> need to be restarted -- quite frustrating.
>
> Adam
>
> On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Greg Troxel  > wrote:
>
>
> Marc Gemis >
> writes:
>
> > Keypadmapper can send the recorded data via email.
>
> Keep in mind that keypadmapper is spyware :-) In all seriousness, it
> uploads locations and cell ids to a public database whenever it's
> running.  If you're out explicitly doing mapping, that might be
> fine at
> times, but it's bad behavior in general and I must therefore recommend
> against recommending it.
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Simon Poole]

Randy,

I just want to point out that there is an existing and well established
OSM-based service that already supplies worldwide boundaries in a number
of formats https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/boundaries/ .

Further the operator runs daily quality checks on changes in the boundaries.

Simon


Am 11.06.2015 um 14:54 schrieb Randy Meech:
 On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Randy Meech randy.me...@gmail.com
 mailto:randy.me...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 11:00 PM, Clifford Snow
 cliff...@snowandsnow.us mailto:cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote:
 
 
 Seattle has very defined neighborhoods and even
 sub-neighborhoods. The prior discussions kept us from adding the
 boundaries. Maybe it is time to reconsider. The Mapzen effort to
 produce a boundaries overlay is a promising solution to the
 problem, but I haven't heard anything from Mapzen for a while.
 
 
 We've changed course to publish existing OSM boundaries in different
 formats, similar to the metro extracts [2], although this is not
 live yet. The theory is that if we make the data more accessible to
 people for visualization, they'll improve it.
 
 
 Just an update on this, last weekend we launched Borders, which is
 similar to Metro Extracts, but just publishes GeoJSON files of all the
 admin levels for every country from OSM.
 
 We hope that making this data more visible  accessible will lead to its
 improvement.
 
 Data: https://mapzen.com/data/borders/
 Blog: https://mapzen.com/blog/total-perspective-vortex
 Code:
 - https://github.com/pelias/fences-slicer
 - https://github.com/pelias/fences-cli
 - https://github.com/pelias/fences-builder
 
 Additionally, Nathaniel Kelso of Natural Earth and Quattroshapes will be
 starting at Mapzen on Monday (yay). Among many other things, we want to
 focus on this area both within OSM and in other data projects. If anyone
 is interested in helping, drop us a line.
 
 -Randy
 
 
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US

[Simon Poole]

It supports at least down to level 11, simply click on the entries and
it will display sub-boundaries and so on.

Not that there isn't room for further parallel services, but this wasn't
actually a vacuum :-). In particular anything helping improving
boundaries in the US is a good thing.

Simon

Am 11.06.2015 um 17:20 schrieb Randy Meech:
 On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch
 mailto:si...@poole.ch wrote:
 
 I just want to point out that there is an existing and well established
 OSM-based service that already supplies worldwide boundaries in a number
 of formats https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/boundaries/ .
 
 
 Yes -- unless I'm mistaken, this only supports admin_level=2, meaning
 country borders?
 
 This new project exposes all the other admin levels as well, in order to
 display cities, neighborhoods, etc. We saw demand for this in feedback
 on Metro Extracts and elsewhere.
 
 -Randy 



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Re: [Talk-us] Am I doing this right? Houses w/ addresses

[Simon Poole]

Long press. press, press ... typically less than 5 seconds (depending on
the situation I might not even stop walking).

Simon

Am 14.04.2015 um 01:32 schrieb John F. Eldredge:
 That depends, in part, on how long you want to stand there pecking away
 at your device, and how suspicious folks are likely to become if you
 stand in front of each building for up to several minutes before moving on.
 
 
 On April 13, 2015 4:02:24 AM CDT, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:
 
 
 IMHO if you are actually entering stuff in to a mobile device, you may
 as well use vespucci and just do it properly the first time. But hten
 I'm biased.
 
 Simon
 
 Am 12.04.2015 um 18:50 schrieb Greg Morgan:
 
 
 
 On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Harald Kliems kli...@gmail.com
 mailto:kli...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 In areas with detached houses, the Android app Keypadmapper has
 worked pretty well for me. Once house numbers get too dense (worst
 case: Montreal, where each apartment in a duplex or triplex will
 have it's own house number) it starts getting tricky assigning the
 number to the correct building. And yeah, Mapillary imagery can
 definitely be useful for address data.
 
 
 Keypad mapper is wonderful because you are not as conspicuous
 when using
 pen and paper. I've tried using ranges were I drop the leading two
 digits while entering five digit numbers. There's a bunch of post
 processing when you actually enter the data. With any technique
 that I
 use, I always feel like Billy in the family circus. It is
 amazing where
 people put addresses. Commercial buildings can be the worst case
 to try
 and find the number.
 
 http://familycircus.com/comics/april-5-2015/
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Talk-us mailing list
 Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
 
 
 
 
 Talk-us mailing list
 Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
 
 
 -- 
 John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
 Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot
 drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Am I doing this right? Houses w/ addresses

[Simon Poole]

Am 14.04.2015 um 20:42 schrieb John F. Eldredge:
 If all you are doing on the spot is recording the house number, then
 what is the advantage to using Vespucci instead of a simpler tool?

No further processing step, upload and you are finished.

Other stuff, POIs and so one will tend to take longer since you
typically will want to at least type in a name, however that is likely
to be an universal issue. The alternative: taking a geo-referenced
photograph (after many 1000's of voice notes I've given up on them)
tends to not be very inconspicuous either.



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Re: [Talk-us] Am I doing this right? Houses w/ addresses

[Simon Poole]

IMHO if you are actually entering stuff in to a mobile device, you may
as well use vespucci and just do it properly the first time. But hten
I'm biased.

Simon

Am 12.04.2015 um 18:50 schrieb Greg Morgan:
 
 
 On Sat, Apr 11, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Harald Kliems kli...@gmail.com
 mailto:kli...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 In areas with detached houses, the Android app Keypadmapper has
 worked pretty well for me. Once house numbers get too dense (worst
 case: Montreal, where each apartment in a duplex or triplex will
 have it's own house number) it starts getting tricky assigning the
 number to the correct building. And yeah, Mapillary imagery can
 definitely be useful for address data.
 
 
 Keypad mapper is wonderful because you are not as conspicuous when using
 pen and paper.  I've tried using ranges were I drop the leading two
 digits while entering five digit numbers.  There's a bunch of post
 processing when you actually enter the data.  With any technique that I
 use, I always feel like Billy in the family circus.  It is amazing where
 people put addresses.  Commercial buildings can be the worst case to try
 and find the number.
 
 http://familycircus.com/comics/april-5-2015/
  
 
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

[Simon Poole]

Am 07.04.2015 um 16:51 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
...
 
 is this something the OSMF lawyers have had a look into? Is the issue
 really copyright or is this about trademark (regarding the names
 GR PR etc.)? Currently it seems we are accepting what the Fédération
 Francaise de la Randonnée Pédestre claims, without questioning whether
 their claims hold up.
...

The wiki already explains: they hold a trademark for GR which makes
using the official names of the routes essentially impossible in and
for material they hold protection for and further they seem to claim
copyright on the routes themselves, which is not particularly far
fetched and can't be dismissed out of hand.

AFAIK the OSM FR has never asked for formal support in the matter, and I
very much doubt the OSMF would become active in the matter of its own
accord, except if directly approached by a rights holder and even then
the likely response is to delete questionable material. This doesn't
mean that the OSMF is completely inactive wrt such matters, for example
the LWG has been in contact and discussion with the WMF on freedom of
panorama issues.

 
 E.g. why can't you do a survey and publicly say: 

You are requesting somebody to argue the case of Fédération
Francaise de la Randonnée Pédestre, which I would do, if they paid me :-).


 .. Also, we are mapping roads and buildings, but the projects
 leading to these constructions are normally protected by copyright, and
 also a building can be protected (architectural work). None of these do
 stop us to map them in other fields, what is the particularity why GR
 cannot be mapped?

Because us mapping them has never been challenged? Particularly in the
case of 3d building models there is obviously potential for conflict,
which however has AFAIK never actually happened up to now.

Simon




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Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

[Simon Poole]

Am 08.04.2015 um 15:23 schrieb Russ Nelson:
 Simon Poole writes:
   The wiki already explains: they hold a trademark for GR which makes
   using the official names of the routes essentially impossible in and
 
 Perhaps French trademark law is different than US trademark law, but
 in the US, you can *always* use a trademark truthfully. Thus, you can
 call Coke-a-Cola Coke-a-Cola all day long and they can't stop you.
 
Yes, but we are using their trademark on a competing product, aka Pespi
labelling their bottles with Coke-a-Cola (made by Pepsi).



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Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

[Simon Poole]

Am 04.04.2015 um 14:57 schrieb Kate Chapman:
...

Small reality check (not saying that this is anybodies fault, just how
it is):

- the US community shapes how the project is perceived by the media globally
- US based companies control the majority of funds spent on OSM
development and have a major influence in OSM related formal bodies
- the US community has a large (far far larger than the relative and
absolute size of the community would indicate) presence in essentially
every policy discussion in an OSM context.

I don't think pretending that the US is an unimportant, negligible
player, best left on its own, is going to work particularly well and
just as a lot of other people follow closely what is going on in the US
and feel entitled to voice my opinion when necessary.  Its the price you
have to pay for global dominance.

And the other part of the puzzle is, while we don't and likely can't
have unified quality standards for OSM, there is a certain expectation
of usefulness, at least for 1st world countries. That might not be a
concern for everybody in the US community, it is a concern for people
outside of the US wanting to use OSM based data for the US (revisit
Richard Fairhurst numerous posts on the topic) and I don't think you can
negate that such an interest is quite valid.

Simon




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Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

[Simon Poole]

Am 03.04.2015 um 02:41 schrieb stevea:
 Facts about the world
 Simon Poole writes:
 Up to now OSM has drawn the line in such a way that stuff that is
 signposted and is observable on the ground is fair game (with some
 exceptions, I believe the GR issue is still unsolved).

 Yes, all of that is fair game.  Though I don't know what the GR
 issue is, and ask you to please clarify.

Sorry for the late answer, been on the road for two days and now are on
a rather flaky network connection.  See
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Walking_Routes#France for a very
short synopsis of the GR issue.

 ..  As facts about the world, these data belong to us, and when
 true, we can put them into OSM.  (Sometimes such data, like airline
 routes, are inappropriate to put into OSM -- but that's another topic).

I think where we differ is that I see OSM (not only) as a project that
demonstrates (in practical use) what citizens can do with today's
technology, in an area that just a couple of years back was completely
controlled by government and industry.  If by doing so, more government
data becomes freely available then that is a nice side effect, but not a
primary goal.

I don't see it as a vehicle to promote any specific agenda outside of
the relatively narrow goals of the project itself. In particular I don't
see potentially impacting the primary goal of providing free (as in free
of legal restrictions by third parties) geo data to everyone by becoming
embrolied in legal fights just to prove a point.

It is my subjective impression is that we are just on the brink of the
project being unworkable because our contributors are too bold in using
third party sources -not- the other way around (and yes when I get back
home I have to deal with removing months of work by a mapper together
with the DWG because they were too bold).

Simon


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Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

[Simon Poole]

Am 04.04.2015 um 18:40 schrieb stevea:
 Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world
 I respectfully and strenuously disagree.  We still (and likely will)
 continue to have some predictable and manageable problems with import
 of data from third party sources, but we have procedures in place to
 make imports and third party data sources (two different things, but
 they do often overlap) better.
Just as a a clarification the case in question is not an import, but
actually exactly a they are only facts so I can extract them from the
original source(s) and use them in OSM situation.



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Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

[Simon Poole]

Am 04.04.2015 um 17:03 schrieb Alex Barth:
 I just don't want to be called a couch potato in the course of it ;-)
Couch carrot? :-P

Seriously, I believe Frederik was more referring to how OSM is viewed by
third parties and the impression outsiders could get from the image we
tend to market. And however at odds with reality such an impression is,
it probably can't be ignored and needs a conscious effort to correct.

Aka no more rooms of people staring at computer screens, more people on
bicycles or whatever :-)

Simon
 



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Re: [Talk-us] USA Rail: Calling all OSM railfans! (especially in California)

[Simon Poole]

Am 02.04.2015 um 05:20 schrieb Russ Nelson:
 ...
 April Fools! Yes, you can. There are many kinds of public domain maps
 whose republication needs no license. For example, in the US all maps
 published before the magic date, whatever year it is we're up to
 now. Maps copyrighted but not renewed. Maps published without a
 copyright before 1988. 
Very true.

 Maps with insufficient creative content to be
 copyrightable.

They may exist, but are you seriously saying that we (as in individual
mappers and the OSM community as a whole) should make that determination?

 There are maps which are canonical sources of facts about the world,
 such as a BNSF map naming subdivisions. No one can own a fact about
 the world, because it's a fact. Just like you can't patent math. Same
 idea. You can copyright a collection of facts. You can copyright the
 arrangement of facts. You can copy the presentation of facts. But you
 can't copyright the individual facts.

While is true that you can't own a fact in isolation, the problem is
they are rarely presented in that form.

Up to now OSM has drawn the line in such a way that stuff that is
signposted and is observable on the ground is fair game (with some
exceptions, I believe the GR issue is still unsolved). If you are using
a collection of facts, be it a list, a map, a file on a computer or
whatever, we have to now always taken the, fairly high ground, position
that you either need explicit permission (by agreement, licence or
similar) or that the use of the source is clearly not subject to
copyright any longer. Forgetting about other rights, regulations etc
that may exist for the purpose of this discussion.

What you seem to be saying in your above statement, followed by stevea's
battle call to actually do so,  that wholesale extraction of facts from
any source is unproblematic and is something that can be done without
further consideration and the net result can be used in OSM globally
with no expectation of problems. BTW you live in the country of software
patents which -is- essentially patenting math.

Alas I suspect you are kidding yourself in a big way.

Simon




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Re: [Talk-us] Best practices for outdoor mapping party

[Simon Poole]

Now days there is quite a lot of on-device help for the not so obvious
parts (not that there are many). I admit that that needs to be dumped on
a website (is one of the things fairly high on the TODO list).

Back on topic: naturally one of the interesting things about a mapping
party -is- to see how other mappers work, even for contributors very
much ingrained in how they do it.

Simon

Am 09.03.2015 um 20:23 schrieb Clifford Snow:
 
 On Mon, Mar 9, 2015 at 12:19 PM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch
 mailto:si...@poole.ch wrote:
 
 (obviously for nearly every thing except large scale
 geometry changes vespucci is the only reasonable solution :-)).
 
 
 Simon,
 Your are going to have to come to Seattle and teach us how to use
 Vespucci. We really struggle trying to use it. Maybe it has something to
 do with all the legal pot we have available :-)
 
 
 -- 
 @osm_seattle
 osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us http://osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
 OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
 
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Best practices for outdoor mapping party

[Simon Poole]

The real core question is: will you have newbies or not?

Old hands will have their favourite method of mapping anyway and are
unlikely to change (obviously for nearly every thing except large scale
geometry changes vespucci is the only reasonable solution :-)). For them
you simply need a reasonable way of splitting up the area in question,
essentially any print out of OSM will do OK, field papers working
particularly well.

If you have newbies you need to think about if you want to pair them up
with old hands or have them go out and learn the ropes on their own
(I've tried both and there are likely an even number of pros and cons
for both).

Simon



Am 09.03.2015 um 17:09 schrieb Harald Kliems:
 With help from the wonderful folks at Maptime Madison, we're planning on
 hosting the first Madison (Wisc.) mapping party on the Spring Mapathon
 weekend. Nobody involved has ever organized or even attended a mapping
 party, so we wouldn't mind some advice. From reading on the wiki and
 various user diaries, I've come up with the following rough plan:
 
 - Meet at coffee shop, distribute Field Papers maps of the area to be
 surveyed, GPSrs , cameras, calibrate camera clocks. Mention non-obvious
 things that can be mapped, e.g. diet, payment method, collection times,
 opening hours, backrests on benches.
 - Depending on the number of participants, start surveying all together
 or in groups of three to four people. Plan on about one hour of surveying. 
 - Group works it way toward the final meeting point at the local public
 library. Have a least two hours to process data and get it into OSM.
 Laptops are available at the library.
 
 Does this sound reasonable? Anything else I should be thinking of? 
 
  Harald.
 
 
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Re: [Talk-us] GNIS POI populations

[Simon Poole]

Am 13.01.2015 um 21:29 schrieb Wolfgang Zenker:
...
 In Montana I have removed rather than changed these POIs, as they definitely
 no longer existed before the GNIS import. Removing these for all of the US
 would be a good thing, especially for hospitals. We definitely don't want
 people in an emergency to end up in the middle of an empty field because
 they followed their navigation device to Podunk Hospital (historical).
...

According to overpass turbo there is the small number of 394 such nodes
(historical hospitals) remaining in the US (excluding Alaska and
Hawaii). Given that this is bad data that actually might have disastrous
consequences, I would suggest that fixing these (and other GNIS junk
that might be misleading) has a slightly higher priority than updating
population numbers.

Simon



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Re: [Talk-us] Dirt Roads (formerly: Abandoned railway)

[Simon Poole]

Am 06.09.2014 15:19, schrieb Tod Fitch:

 It is way too late now, but I think tagging of traveled ways would
 have been better off it a simple highway=yes tag had been agreed to
 with everything else in other tags like width=*, surface=*,
 maxspeed=*, access=*, etc.


IMHO you should simply think of highway=xxx

as a shorthand for

highway=yes
classification-for-routing-purposes=xxx

Simon



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Re: [Talk-us] More road name expansion thoughts

[Simon Poole]

Just a quick remark: there is already a tag short_name that is
supported for example by nominatim that can be used for storing a
contracted version of name for rendering and other purposes if necessary.

Simon

PS: these discussions are not unique to the states, even though the use
of contractions is likely to be highest there.




Am 22.07.2014 01:55, schrieb Dale Puch:
 I see the reason for all this work is to make the data un-ambigious.  To
 that end expanding all the contractions.  This is needed for text to
 speech, consistent searches, and probably a few other issues.  From the
 expanded data names can be contracted a lot easier without mistakes.
 
 Raw data: northwest 15th drive
 spoken data: northwest fifteenth drive
 Map data: NW 15th Dr.
 
 I don't think we need to store 2 or 3 copies for 99.9% of the names, but
 some will break the rules the rest follow and need some kind of don't
 expand flag or alt name(s) stored because of that.
 
 
 Dale Puch
 
 
 On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com
 mailto:emac...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Mikel Maron mikel.ma...@gmail.com
 mailto:mikel.ma...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Here in Washington DC, the street names are all suffixed with the
 quadrant
  (NW, SE, SW, NE) the road lies in. The official names of the
 streets kept by
  the DC city government all use the contraction. Historically, I
 could find
  no maps that used the expansion.
 
 The city maps may use the same contractions as TIGER, etc. but we know
 they're contractions, which is distinct from being words, so I don't
 the city maps as being a reason for changing the way the entire OSM
 project handles contractions.
 
 BTW, for anyone who isn't aware, I lived in DC from 1996-2012, which
 is both a long time, and also a recent time. I consider myself
 essentially a local in this matter.
 
  For spoken navigation systems, this is probably the easiest
 situation to
  identify and handle, without ambiguity.
 
 The real issue is trying to standardize the OSM data for data
 consumers, which text-to-speech systems will benefit from, but they're
 not the only ones.
 
  OSM maps of DC now just look a bit bizarre.
 
 The MapBox folks seemed to have figued this out US-wide and
 re-contract the road names and the directional identifiers. This is a
 rendering problem- one which I agree with you 100% that it should be
 fixed, not just for directions but also for road identifiers, because
 we in the US are used to seeing contractions.
 
 Another proposal I've seen which seemed interesting (though not free
 of problems) is the idea of a new tag that was basically the name of
 the road exactly as it appears on a road sign.
 
 I agree with you 100% that we should strive for a map that looks
 American for US map users. The MapBox folks seem to have done it, so
 really this is a problem with osm.org http://osm.org's map. Their
 map is really
 British-Euro centric in many ways, and it would really be nice if we
 had a good, solid alternative, much like osm.fr http://osm.fr.
 Maybe MapBox can
 share some of their style with us, or if not, we have our work cut out
 for us, but I'm sure we can do it.
 
  So I don't recommend we apply this expansion without consideration of
  regional variation. Before any expansion scripts are run, in DC or
 anywhere,
  the local community needs to be consulted sufficiently.
 
 Can you elaborate on this?
 
 - Serge
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Tags used for routing

[Simon Poole]

Martijn

Wouldn't it be better to have this discussion on dev or tagging or at
least some where with a slightly larger audience than talk-us? In any
case the -really- important page is
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions
which is essentially the only documentation we have on default/implicit
access on ways.

Simon

Am 18.07.2014 22:57, schrieb Martijn van Exel:
 Hi all,

 I am not sure if this list is monitored by the maintainers of routing
 engines that use OSM? I wanted to draw attention to
 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing. This page
 seemed to have very little bearing on what is actually used. It came
 up recently on either IRC or another mailing list, and Richard
 Fairhurst added the warning that is now heading section 1.2 of the
 page.

 I just edited this page some more to add the 1.1 section on 'actual
 usage'. For now it contains a section on Telenav with a link to a
 child page I just created with some information on tag usage for the
 Scout apps. My hope is that this page, or some template we can agree
 on, will be used by other routing engine owners to supply a similar
 set of information. I realize that many engines allow the end user to
 tweak how routing results are calculated, but there should be some
 minimal set of information on tag usage based on defaults?

 The OSM tags for routing page could use much more cleanup, I think.
 I'd rather have it only reflect actual usage by well established
 routing engines only. Thoughts?
 --
 Martijn van Exel
 OSM data specialist
 Telenav
 http://www.osm.org/user/mvexel
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Mvexel
 http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?mvexel

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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: USBRS WikiProject seeks volunteer mappers

[Simon Poole]

Am 03.06.2014 10:42, schrieb Minh Nguyen:
 On 2014-06-02 13:24, Simon Poole wrote:
 @stevea you would substantially help your cause if the route data was
 available for inspection, best a public source from where it could be
 obtained.
 
 Here are the special committee minutes approving the routes (along with
 various U.S. route modifications):
 
 http://route.transportation.org/Documents/USRN%20Report%20May%2029%202014.docx
 
 
 Each USBR approval links to an application by a state DOT containing a
 full route log, to wit:
 
 USBR 1 (MA):
 http://ballot.transportation.org/FileDownload.aspx?attachmentType=ItemID=1167
 
 
 USBR 10 (WA):
 http://ballot.transportation.org/FileDownload.aspx?attachmentType=ItemID=1184
 

Thanks.

Route USBR 10 nicely illustrates my point about GIGO. It starts of in
untouched TIGER country and continues. Implying that nothing has been
surveyed along the route, clearly requiring large amounts of clean up
before even thinking about adding the roads to a route relation (well at
least if you don't want the relation to break n-times when somebody
actually does the clean up).

Further the area not being surveyed implies that all the value add that
we can offer a cyclist is not there (surface, lanes, shoulders etc).

Simon


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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: USBRS WikiProject seeks volunteer mappers

[Simon Poole]

Am 02.06.2014 06:28, schrieb Russ Nelson:
 . Let's say that I follow this
 route on my bicycle using a cue sheet and keep a GPS track. Then I load
 my GPS track into JOSM and create a relation and call it USBRS #47 (or
 whatever). How is this an import??

While not quite what you intended, I believe you do illustrate a major
sore point with building the routes simply from whatever documentation
will/is supplied. It skips actually verifying the individual segments on
the ground which is part of providing a high quality route (signed or
not) in OSM.  It is something that I would be very wary of doing in
areas where we have a consistent road network and definitely will lead
to GIGO in the states.

To put it differently: if the import was combined with systematic
surveying of the routes by OSM contributors instead of them just sitting
at their desk then it would be a lot more palatable.

SImon


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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: USBRS WikiProject seeks volunteer mappers

[Simon Poole]

@stevea you would substantially help your cause if the route data was
available for inspection, best a public source from where it could be
obtained.


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Re: [Talk-us] Named beaches, too?

[Simon Poole]

It has been pointed out in numerous places before, but just in case you
missed it: there is an ongoing effort (since months) to remove all
catch alls from the standard style.

This implies that stuff you thought was rendered might vanish, but in
fact it was just accidental that it was shown in the first place. If
there is a feature that you feel strongly should be displayed with the
standard style, then you should submit a feature request.

Simon


Am 24.05.2014 05:56, schrieb stevea:
 As long as I'm whinging about mapnik getting different (simpler, with
 omissions) it seems named beaches are not rendering, either.
 
 Whinge, whine.  Why bother?  Oh, yeah:  the tagging captures.  Yet
 without definitive (Standard) rendering, why bother?  (Can't say when
 named beaches ducked out, but NR/leisure=nature_reserve was recent).
 
 Wow, I'm in a mood:  don't mess with (our) mapnik?!  Again, I'm all for
 improvements.  But dumbing down?
 
 Can't we just talk?
 
 SteveA
 California
 
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Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths

[Simon Poole]

This is not the OSMF becoming involved in tagging :-) I'm guilty of
quite a bit of sidewalk mapping, even though I have some sympathy for a
generalized approach (adding a tag to the main road way). In reality, at
least here, this tends not to model the actual topology particularly
well. I do a fair bit off inline skating route mapping and sidewalks
tend to be even more important than for pedestrians.

Paths that really have the character of sidewalks I tag with
highway=footway footway=sidewalk this allows renderers and routers to
ignore them if they so please. The only tricky part is to remember to
connect paths that cross the sidewalk not just to it, but to the road
itself too,  and add extra connections where appropriate (roads
branching off or crossing the main road).

Simon.


Am 30.04.2014 17:59, schrieb Toby Murray:
 Wait, what is the consensus method for tagging sidewalks? I haven't
 done a lot of them but I know I've added a few as footways myself.

 Toby


 On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Steven Johnson sejohns...@gmail.com
 mailto:sejohns...@gmail.com wrote:

 Certainly your first move should be to contact the user, gently
 point her/him to the consensus method for tagging sidewalks, and
 ask the mapper to correct their work. Hopefully, an appeal to
 enlightened self-interest as well as the quality of the map, will
 prevail.


 -- SEJ
 -- twitter: @geomantic
 -- skype: sejohnson8

 There are two types of people in the world. Those that can
 extrapolate from incomplete data.


 On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 11:38 AM, William Morris
 wboyk...@geosprocket.com mailto:wboyk...@geosprocket.com wrote:

 Is there a general OSM policy on marking sidewalks as
 highway=footway?
 User dolphinling appears to have gone crazy in downtown
 Burlington,VT
 tracing the sidewalks and calling them footways. Which
 wouldn't be a
 problem if footways weren't so cartographically distinct in
 everyone's
 stylesheets:

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/44.47772/-73.21112

 Should I:

 1. Revert
 2. Get in touch with the editor
 3. Get over it

 Thanks!

 -Bill Morris
 @vtcraghead


 --
 William Morris | Cartographer
 (802)-870-0880 tel:%28802%29-870-0880 | geosprocket.io
 http://geosprocket.io | GeoSprocket LLC, Burlington VT

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Re: [Talk-us] OpenStreetMap Isn't All That Open, Let's Change That and Drop Share-Alike

[Simon Poole]

Yes, I believe that is fairly clear. We do however seem to have a clear
continuing increase in the average rate of new contributors too.

Simon


Am 14.03.2014 22:39, schrieb Richard Weait:
 On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:

 And while I haven't updated my charts yet this year, I have already produced
 numbers for January and February 2014. January showed the largest increase
 in contributors in a month to date in the history of OSM and the second
 largest total number of monthly active contributors. Not exactly indicating
 that we have an issue.
 I'm sure that we will find that the big jump in contributions in
 January is due to the wonderful article(s)[1] that Serge Wroclawski
 wrote.  Serge spoke of the importance of contributing data to
 OpenStreetMap.  Serge is to be congratulated on very well executed
 advocacy for the benefit of the OpenStreetMap project.

 [1] http://blog.emacsen.net/blog/2014/01/04/why-the-world-needs-openstreetmap/

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Re: [Talk-us] OpenStreetMap Isn't All That Open, Let's Change That and Drop Share-Alike

[Simon Poole]

Am 14.03.2014 21:47, schrieb Carol Kraemer:
 ..

 Let's say that there are 1,500,000 registered users
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osmdbstats1_users.png as is
 stated by the first graph. I will also look at the last year of % of
 total users contributing where the highest percentage is no more than
 2%. This is a conservative guess, at best, but that means that
 internationally, there have only been about 30,000 active users
 contributing of the 1,500,000 registered users.
 ..
Unluckily you are being misled by the numbers, which are not wrong, but
you do have to understand how they were produced.

See https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SimonPoole/diary/20524 or similar
numbers from Pascal Neis for indications of what is really going on.

And while I haven't updated my charts yet this year, I have already
produced numbers for January and February 2014. January showed the
largest increase in contributors in a month to date in the history of
OSM and the second largest total number of monthly active contributors.
Not exactly indicating that we have an issue.

The contributors/accounts ratio has gone up and down a bit over time,
but that is more likely mainly due to external effects, the contributor
numbers show a steady, slightly increasing over time, growth.

Simon



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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Isn't All That Open, Let's Change That and Drop Share-Alike

[Simon Poole]

I wrote an unpublished blog article a week ago (obviously not in 
response to post of Alex) that I've put online now 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SimonPoole/diary/21225


It might be of interest where IMHO Alex didn't get it quite right.

Simon

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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: [OSM-talk] Using 'Kort' outside of Switzerland

[Simon Poole]

Hi Peter

The underlying errors that are used for the challenges in Kort are
generated by keepright
http://keepright.ipax.at/report_map.php?zoom=12lat=39.95356lon=-75.12364
and while the Kort authors select suitable errors for the game itself,
they don't influence what keepright considers an error directly (see
https://github.com/kort/kort/wiki). That said, perhaps a pointer to one
of the roads in question would be helpful, IMHO keepright doesn't
actually complain about missing language on street names (it does about
the same for other objects).

Simon

PS: while Switzerland has numerous places that are truly bi-lingual,
most aren't and current practice is not to add and extra name:de,
name:fr, name:it or name:rm if there is only one name (which, if you
think of it might lead to issues in exactly such bi-lingual places).
Anyway I definitely don't have a couple of 100 Kort challenges around
where I live (mono-lingual German speaking region), so likely you are
seeing something different.


Am 17.01.2014 00:24, schrieb Peter Davies:
 Simon,

 I tried Kort here in Portland, Oregon. It gave me some interesting
 things to think about. I'd hoped to send them to talk-ch, but it seems
 I can't without subscribing in the longer term.  Maybe you can relay
 this to your local colleagues?

 Kort gave me three types of mission. One was to enter the language of
 some street names here in Portland. The second was to enter some speed
 limits, and the third was to name a pub.

 As feedback, and as a suggestion on how the game might need to be
 modified for countries outside Switzerland, I don't think that
 specifying the language of a street sign is useful in essentially
 monolingual countries. In the USA, street signs should always be
 considered to be in English. There is no reason to tag them with any
 language in OpenStreetMap.  English is the default.

 There are interesting questions, of course: El Camino Real is a common
 street name in California, and is obviously Spanish, so what is the
 correct English name?  Is it The Royal Road? No, I don't think so;
 we would not want to translate this to create an American English
 name.  The correct name in English is  El Camino Real.  The Spanish
 name has been adopted into English usage.  Local English speakers
 would all say El Camino Real.

 These thoughts lead me to the Avenue des Champs-Élysées. Should we
 write Elysian Fields Avenue in English? No, of course not.  Almost
 everyone has heard of the Champs-Élysées, and no-one would dream of
 writing the Elysian Fields. So should we be translating street names
 at all?  My conclusion is that only countries with separate, major
 linguistic communities actually do this. Personally I'd like my map to
 say Hauptbahnhofstrasse and not Central Station Street, so I could
 find it on other maps and signs, or try to ask for it correctly
 in Solothurn.

 On the other two questions, I knew that the urban speed limits were
 all 25 mph, because this is the blanket limit in Oregon's urban areas,
 but when I tried to enter this it was rejected. I was allowed to enter
 25, but I worried that Kort might think this was in km/h.  Would it
 enter 25 km/h into OpenStreetMap if someone confirmed my response?
  Meanwhile I found all of central Portland's residential roads without
 speed tags in JOSM and set them to 25 mph.  

 Finally the pub: I didn't know it!  It still remains to be answered.

 Thank you for this interesting game,

 Peter


 On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 4:38 AM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch
 mailto:si...@poole.ch wrote:


 From the talk mailing list (mandatory disclosure: yes I know the
 authors).


  Original-Nachricht 

 Hi there,

 I'm very proud to announce that finally Kort[1] (the OSM game)
 writes back it's collected solutions to OSM! All changes are made
 by the OSM user kort-to-osm[2], so it's easy to track them.

 Our actions were coordinated with the local (Swiss) community and
 the Data Working Group (DWG). According to the Mechanical Edit
 Policy[3] all changesets have the tag mechanical=yes and the
 users profile page contains all relevant information about the
 project. With all the extra information in the changeset comment,
 we are able to trace back an edit through Kort and even further to
 its source. By the way, for most missions KeepRight[4] is the source.

 Until now we made over 280 changes. All changes were validated by
 at least 3 users. There are still lots of solved missions that are
 just waiting to be validated, so that we are able to finally
 provides them to OSM.

 The source code for kort-to-osm is available on GitHub[5], you are
 very welcome to open issues or provide pull requests. The
 underlying python library to access the OpenStreetMap API is
 osmapi[6].

 ***Apart from this big step, Kort itself has some new features:***
 - Upgrade to Sencha Touch 2.3 - now all major browsers

Re: [Talk-us] Local user groups

[Simon Poole]

Just a couple of observations from the other side of the Atlantic:
- please make it easy to contact your group without having to go through a sign 
up procedure with yet another service. Not everybody is interested in joining 
permamently and making a meetup account mandatory just means you wont get 
casual visitors that might be interesting.
- while by far not the oldest OSM local group the Zurich group just had its 
49th meeting on Monday and up to now we're not outstripped the capabilities of 
the wiki, mailing list and now and then a doodle for special events.

Simon

Ps: background: l was in San Diego for 2 weeks in September and naturally would 
have liked to meet up with a couple of local mappers and /or the Southern 
California group, but see above.

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[Talk-us] Fwd: [OSM-talk] The game 'Kort' finally updates OpenStreetMap

[Simon Poole]

From the talk mailing list (mandatory disclosure: yes I know the authors).


 Original-Nachricht 

Hi there,

I'm very proud to announce that finally Kort[1] (the OSM game) writes
back it's collected solutions to OSM! All changes are made by the OSM
user kort-to-osm[2], so it's easy to track them.

Our actions were coordinated with the local (Swiss) community and the
Data Working Group (DWG). According to the Mechanical Edit Policy[3]
all changesets have the tag mechanical=yes and the users profile page
contains all relevant information about the project. With all the extra
information in the changeset comment, we are able to trace back an edit
through Kort and even further to its source. By the way, for most
missions KeepRight[4] is the source.

Until now we made over 280 changes. All changes were validated by at
least 3 users. There are still lots of solved missions that are just
waiting to be validated, so that we are able to finally provides them to
OSM.

The source code for kort-to-osm is available on GitHub[5], you are very
welcome to open issues or provide pull requests. The underlying python
library to access the OpenStreetMap API is osmapi[6].

***Apart from this big step, Kort itself has some new features:***
- Upgrade to Sencha Touch 2.3 - now all major browsers are supported
(IE, Firefox, Chrome, Safari)
- Thanks to our new database server, we can provide missions in the USA
as well (no more limits!)
- Our homepage kort.ch http://kort.ch is available in English, too :)


Any remarks, comments, issues etc. are very welcome!

Best regards Stefan

[1] http://www.kort.ch/index_en.html resp. http://play.kort.ch
http://play.kort.ch/
[2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/kort-to-osm
[3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edit_Policy
[4] http://keepright.at http://keepright.at/
[5] https://github.com/kort/kort-to-osm
[6] https://pypi.python.org/pypi/osmapi


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Re: [Talk-us] Admin borders in the US

[Simon Poole]

Am 07.11.2013 06:20, schrieb Bryce Cogswell:
 I have to agree with Jason on this as well. Admin borders are some of
 the most important cartographic information on the planet, to the
 extent that wars are fought over them, and are easily verified through
 dozens of independent sources. To exclude them from OSM on the basis
 of a ground verifiable ideology seems silly.

I will just note that nobody advocated excluding borders from OSM, in
fact just the other way around. The discussion is about how they
technically should be included in OSM, not about soapboxes.
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Re: [Talk-us] Admin borders in the US

[Simon Poole]

IMHO we shouldn't and I don't believe it is necessary to, give up the
principle of everybody can edit anything, even in the case of admin borders.

On the one hand we have cases where the borders are estimates generated
by mappers because there are no available and free sources, on the other
hand we can react faster to changes than your typical government GIS
agency (example: we have a largish number of municipality mergers each
year here, 2012 around 40, we had merged boarder polygons available
months before the official ones were available). As a consequence I
think it would be best to have borders (and other similar objects) in a
separate DB/layer/whatever (makes live simpler for nearly everybody and
stops the typical accident from happening), but the data should still be
edited by our standard tools (in other words the API should stay the
same) and by anybody with a OSM account.

Simon


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Re: [Talk-us] Spammy-sounding survey sent to my OSM inbox today.

[Simon Poole]

Am 28.07.2013 17:51, schrieb stevea:
...
 Re: [Talk-us] Spammy-sounding survey sent to my OSM inbox

 I might be the nicest person you have ever met, I hope I am a good OSM
 mapper, and I am kind to children and animals.  However, I vehemently
 oppose OSM collecting any additional personally-identifiable data.  My
 birth year, employment status, gender and other such data are nobody's
 business but mine.  And you might call me a privacy nut if you know
 me, but I have given more (and more personally-identifiable
 information) about myself to OSM than I have to any other volunteer
 project in my life.

Be assured that you are by no reasonable standard a privacy nut if you
want to reassure yourself, take a look at the now 100 messages long
thread (not counting at least one spin off thread) on talk-de on the
privacy issues related to associating user id, display name and edits.

   I have done so knowing what OSM's existing privacy policies are: 
 nothing specific except those specified and implied by the License
 Terms, and I like it that way.  So, I continue to contribute.  Asking
 me for demographics directly threatens my willingness to contribute in
 the future.

Not only do we have a privacy policy (see
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Privacy_Policy)  that is linked to
the first step of account creation, we (and that means everybody on the
community that has access to data that we don't consider / isn't public)
are bound by law to abide by certain procedures and practices (in
particular UK data protection legislation).

 There are privacy issues, for those accounts who provide demographics
 only to researchers.
 If demographics are included with editing stats, it becomes probable
 someone could work the data in reverse to reveal the member ID.

 You are darn right there are privacy issues.  As OSM has absolutely no
 Privacy Policy (that I am aware of) that isn't already included in the
 License Terms I (and thousands of others) have agreed to, the privacy
 issues are what is out there is out there and what is not out there
 is not available.  Any attempt to change this/ex post facto/ is going
 to inflame the same sort of ugly backlash that changing the License
 Terms from CC-BY-SA to ODBL did:  a nasty feeling of betrayal by OSM
 contributors (which still has not completely gone away, even for many
 who have agreed to the new terms).  Who wants to go first with THAT?!

See above.
 Beyond that I think it reasonable to ask more of mappers.  Wikipedia
 has a good argument for anonymous editing.  OpenStreetMap?  I think
 not so much.

 No, it is not reasonable to ask more of mappers.  OpenStreetMap
 absolutely has the same good arguments for the sort of semi-anonymous
 mapping it enjoys right now.  Do you want to chill new mappers as well
 as dyed-in-the-wool contributors to what is a great project?  OK, then
 start talking about asking more of us in the direction of
 privacy-invading demographic information.

 This knowing everything about everybody has gone too far.  You don't
 know about padeshahekhoban?  Neither do I.  And I really don't care
 to:  I'm busy mapping.

I can assure you, that even if now and then it would be nice to have
better ways of contacting mappers (aka knowing their real name and
address), there is definitely no intention of expanding the information
we require for an account  (a working e-mail address) and very very
clearly no intent to collect any kind of information that could be
considered sensitive personal information (gender, age etc). As said
above just the legal requirements we would then have to fulfil make it
clear that this will not happen (not to mention the community outrage
that it would cause).

Simon
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Re: [Talk-us] Steady increase in the number of mappers in the US

[Simon Poole]

Am 19.07.2013 12:06, schrieb Kathleen Danielson:
 Hi Clifford,

 Wow--thanks for sharing those stats! They are really interesting! 

 I just took a look at the link you shared and it looks like we're
 seeing the number of mappers contributing on any given day. Do you
 know if it's possible to find the number of mappers contributing in a
 week or even month? That might give us a better sense of the real
 number of mappers in the US. (They would all still be relative to
 other countries, but it might give us a better indication of how we're
 doing. For example, when I first saw that 202 number, I was surprised
 at how low it was compared to SOTMUS attendance (380+), but knowing
 it's a daily tally makes far more sense. 

Well yes it is possible, however is essentially boils down to analysing
a full history extract of the US, the changeset bounding boxes are just
too unreliable to be useful (further: such an analysis just counts
people who mapped in the US which is naturally a larger number than bona
fida US mappers). Anyway pre-licence change there were contributions
from roughly 24'000 mappers in the US extract.

To compare that with a random (:-)) other country: number of mappers
with contributions at the same point in time as above: 6500, daily
editors typically 50-60 (pop 8 million) so the ratio total mappers to
daily mappers is roughly the same.

Simon 


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Re: [Talk-us] NYC neighborhood data

[Simon Poole]

Kushal

welcome to OSM. Please feel free to improve our data, while adding the
neighbourhoods as a first project is going to result in a fairly steep
learning curve for you, it is certainly doable.

Unluckily the map used in Wikipedia is unlikely to be usable directly in
OSM for licence reasons,  however you could either refer to the PD maps
that were used in creating it or simply ask the original author for
permission to include the information in OSM.

Simon

Am 05.04.2013 21:36, schrieb Kushal Khan:

 Hi,

 I really love your site, but wanted to help with some updates. Some of
 the neighborhood data for NYC is  inaccurate. For example,
 http://nominatim. openstreetmap.org/reverse
 http://openstreetmap.org/reverse? osm_type=Nosm_id=2184804432 is
 not in the Diamond District nor Chelsea - it's in Midtown East. Also
 http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/reverse?
 osm_type=Nosm_id=2184803604 is not in Chatham Towers nor Greenwich
 Village - it's in Soho.

 If you want a benchmark source for creating admin boundaries, I feel
 this wikipedia link is very accurate with determining borders of
 neighborhood: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_
 Manhattan_neighborhoods (the image displayed in 'Full resolution' is
 useful), but the wiki provides excessive sub-neighborhood detail
 impractical to the way most New Yorkers think. I feel this site has a
 good concept of practical neighborhood breakdowns: http://www.
 nyctourist.com/map1.htm http://nyctourist.com/map1.htm, maybe this
 with the borders defined on wikipedia can serve as a reference guide.

 I know neighborhood distinctions can be a very subjective issue, but
 the current info on openstreetmaps is materially inaccurate. I love
 the concept of your site and want to contribute.

 Please let me know if I can assist any further.

 Regards,
 Kushal



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