Re: It worries me...
Dwight, On 30-06-2005 21:01, you [DAC] wrote in mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: DAC Lots of it is the same few people repeating the same complaints DAC over and over. Exactly. This exaggerates how many people actually have problems. If 2 people complain about the same thing 100 times, it may seem like there are actually 50 people complaining about that thing. Sometimes I am also guilty of this. -- greeting Best regards /greeting author Peter Fjelsten /author thebat version 3.5.35 Pro /thebat version env. ~12 POP3, 4 IMAP (MailMax 5.5) 1 IMAP (Exchange 6.5), 175K msgs. /env. os Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1 /os Current beta is 3.5.35 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[2]: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Hello Mic, Friday, July 1, 2005, 1:40:52 AM, you wrote: If something isn't working properly in your car, do you just ignore it because you're not a qualified mechanic? How would that be comparable? -- Best regards, Alexandermailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Current beta is 3.5.35 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[2]: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Howdy Kevin, Thursday, June 30, 2005, 8:21:51 PM, Kevin wrotened: It's kind of ironic that right now all the complaining is about betas which act like betas, when just a few weeks ago there was all this complaining because there was no aggressive beta cycle going on. There was so much begging that we got an alpha, then there was complaining because the alpha had bugs and AVs. KM I wasn't part of that discussion, but I'd hardly say matters have KM improved much. Just a couple hours ago, we had two betas released KM back to back because the first one was broken. For some. I have not had a broken one yet. Each beta I have tested in this cycle downloads my email and I can read it. I'm not saying that people who have problems should be ignored nor am i saying that there arent improvements to be made. I would say that while I'm not a professional chef, I can judge when food is palatable to me, when it has too much salt etc. Usually when it isn't spicy (piquant) enough, it's way to hot for others to eat, but my tongue still knows. Past that, however, I tend to defer to the experts on lots of the technical matters. KM We can keep going down the analogy road . . . KM Say you order a steak, and it comes back uncooked. You might see some KM grill marks, but it's quite evident it hasn't been cooked. Presuming KM you've actually cooked before, and probably do so on a regular basis, KM you've got a pretty good idea what the problem is. Certainly you know KM what the symptoms are. Would you not then be equipped to pas KM judgement on the chef's process? Or do you really feel that all you KM can say is this steak is too rare? I'd ask for a raw egg and have steak tartare... Btw is there such a thing as undercooking a steak? Personal preference I suppose. Still as they say if life gives you lemons... Anyway what I'm prattling on about is that we all want to use TB! We want it to be the best it can be. Sometime I do feel some people do get overly vitriolic about things but then there are entitled to express there opinions and I have no problem with people feeling committed to TB! (or maybe the money they spent on purchasing it). It will get there of that I have no doubt. -- Have Fun, | | |en is |\ohop [EMAIL PROTECTED] crashing The Bat! v3.5.36 falling out of mid air with Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Intel(R) Pentium(R) M processor 1.70GHz 598 MHz 1.00GB RAM Women need a reason to have sex! Men just need a place. * Billy Crystal Current beta is 3.5.36 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Hello Gleason, TB is a small marvel as it stands. Although I haven't written a line of code in the last 10 years, I was in s/w development for over 27 and I fully agree with your statement. -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v3.5.0.31 on Windows 2000 5.0 Service Pack 4 Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: It worries me...
Hi Alexander, In the message mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] which was apparently written on Thursday, June 30, 2005, 6:00:01 AM. I believe you wrote: ASK And you have maintained projects of similar complexity, I assume? Yes, amongst other apps, I wrote and supported an application which probably did pension transfer process for probably the 8 biggest pensions holders in this country.. so, yes I did do something of similar complexity. Its probably still in use.. Dunno though I left. -- Best regards, Liz (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Website: http://www.xcalibur.co.uk Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[2]: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Hi Gleason, In reply to mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] : ASK Are you a programmer? Yes. And you have maintained projects of similar complexity, I assume? GP Good point. Look around at the other candidates. See how they mostly GP have approximately 10 year development histories. See how they GP all are at one level of disarray or another. What is it about writing GP email clients that is so fiendishly difficult? GP I have written a couple of programs that interact with http servers, GP so I have some idea. Yes, I think forbearance is justified. GP TB is a small marvel as it stands. It's not their lack of programming skill that worries most of us, I think that WE all recognize them good programming skills, it's the quality or lack of testing. Imagine that, instead of doing an email client they were doing Banking application... -- Best regards, Goncalo Farias Call me Ishmael. I won't ANSWER, but... Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
At 19:11 [GMT+0200] on Wednesday June 29 (actual time - 1:11am on Thursday in Perth, Western Australia), you wrote: Clearly the code has exceeded the developers' ability to manage it. Are you a programmer? I'm not an international-level cricketer or footballer or tennis player, but that doesn't stop me passing informed comment on them. -- cheers, mic A good marriage is like a casserole: only those involved actually know what goes into it. Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Hello Gleason Pace everyone else, on 30-Jun-2005 at 07:16 you (Gleason Pace) wrote: Good point. Look around at the other candidates. See how they mostly have approximately 10 year development histories. See how they all are at one level of disarray or another. What is it about writing email clients that is so fiendishly difficult? I don't know. However, I do know that no other email client that I know of is as complex as TB (filtering system, templates, macros, etc. etc.), and we should be careful with comments about the code's complexity and the programmers ability to maintain it; such statements may be made out of frustration, or in a hurry, and thus be short-sighted. -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981) This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us. -- Western Union internal memo, 1876 Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: It worries me...
Hi Liz, on Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:11:26 +0100GMT (30.07.2005, 08:11 +0200GMT here), you wrote: L ... What happened to your calendar? SCNR :-) -- Cheers Peter The Bat! v3.5.33 :beta: on Win2K, SP4, 5, 0, build 2195, AMD Athlon 2200+ at 1794 MHz, 512 MB RAM Excess on occasion is exhilarating. It prevents moderation from acquiring the deadening effect of a habit. W. Somerset Maugham Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[2]: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Hello Alexander, Thursday, June 30, 2005, 8:58:28 AM, you wrote: However, I do know that no other email client that I know of is as complex as TB (filtering system, templates, macros, etc. etc.), and we should be careful with comments about the code's complexity and the programmers ability to maintain it; such statements may be made out of frustration, or in a hurry, and thus be short-sighted. Agreed, and speaking as a programmer who is developing enterprise level applications, writing an application is easy (relatively speaking). It's when you have to go back and add functionality that things get messy. If I had to chose the single largest stumbling block for me as a programmer it would, without a doubt, be scope creep. If you look at it, that's exactly what RITLabs and every developer who is putting out applications is dealing with. Some new functionality is needed and you have to figure out how to incorporate it in without breaking something else. Sometimes it's easy, oftentimes it's not. For the non-programmers, think of it this way. You've just built a house and love it, but the wife decides she wants a sink in the downstairs living room. If you're lucky, maybe where she wants it is just opposite the wall of the downstairs bathroom and you only have to cut a small hole to run a pipe through for the water, and the drainage will tie into the existing sink drain in the bathroom. If you're semi-lucky, she wants it on the exterior wall and you can do most of the new piping on the outside of the house. If you're unlucky, it'll be on an interior wall in which you'll have to rip out a considerable piece of to route piping. I've heard some people say that RITLabs priorities are all screwed up with regard to which bugs get fixed first. Using the previous analogy, let's say in addition to the sink, she says one of the living room pictures is hanging too low. It'll take you two minutes to fix the picture by nailing it up four inches higher, and will make her nice and happy. She still wants her sink (or in the case of a bug, she wants the dripping faucet of that sink fixed), but you're going to need a weekend to do it. I haven't always agreed with RITLabs direction on some things, but it is their product and they'll have to lie in whatever bed they make. You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but never all of the people all of the time. Hey.. Where'd that soapbox come from? grin -- __ TBUDL/BETA/DEV/TECH Lists Moderator / PGP 0x6C0AB16B ( ) ( ___)(_ _)( ___) TBUDP Wiki Site: http://www.PCWize.com/thebat/tbudp )(__ )__) _)(_ )__) Roguemoticons Smileys:http://PCWize.com/thebat ()()()(__)PHP Tutorials and snippets:http://www.DevTek.org Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Hello Leif Gregory everyone else, on 30-Jun-2005 at 17:27 you (Leif Gregory) wrote: If you're unlucky, it'll be on an interior wall in which you'll have to rip out a considerable piece of to route piping. And even then you're still lucky - because you're living in a monogamy, and the men from the neighbourhood will understand what you're going thru and bring you some beer! :-D -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981) Deliplayer2 is playing: Lithium (Oliver Lieb Remix) (7:01) by Paragliders from the album 'Platipus Volume Six (CD 1)' Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: It worries me...
Hi Peter, In the message mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] which was apparently written on Thursday, June 30, 2005, 4:52:46 PM. I believe you wrote: PM on Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:11:26 +0100GMT (30.07.2005, 08:11 +0200GMT here), PM you wrote: PM What happened to your calendar? SCNR :-) I dont understand the question and what is SCNR? -- Best regards, Liz (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Website: http://www.xcalibur.co.uk Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: It worries me...
Hi Cees, on Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:57:31 +0200GMT (30.06.2005, 17:57 +0200GMT here), you wrote: PM What happened to your calendar? SCNR :-) C is that a TV-station?? It looks like one, indeed! LOL Sorry, could not resist (http://www.acronymfinder.com/) -- Cheers Peter The Bat! v3.5.33 :beta: on Win2K, SP4, 5, 0, build 2195, AMD Athlon 2200+ at 1794 MHz, 512 MB RAM 'There are two major products that come out of Berkeley; LSD and BSD Unix. We don't believe this to be a coincidence.' Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: It worries me...
Hi Liz, on Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:28:16 +0100GMT (30.07.2005, 18:28 +0200GMT here), ^^ you wrote: L In the message L mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] which was L apparently written on Thursday, June 30, 2005, 4:52:46 PM. I believe you wrote: PM on Sat, 30 Jul 2005 07:11:26 +0100GMT (30.07.2005, 08:11 +0200GMT here), PM you wrote: PM What happened to your calendar? SCNR :-) L I dont understand the question and what is SCNR? For the latter see my reply to Cees. For the first: your messages appear here as dated on July 30 instead of June. So somehow your system setting must have been moved a month ahead. Nothing of serious importance. I just stumbled over it... :-) -- Cheers Peter The Bat! v3.5.33 :beta: on Win2K, SP4, 5, 0, build 2195, AMD Athlon 2200+ at 1794 MHz, 512 MB RAM Sex is like air. It's not important unless you aren't getting any. Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Hello Leif, If you're unlucky, it'll be on an interior wall in which you'll have to rip out a considerable piece of to route piping. And you forgot something. After your are done, she realises that it would be better to have a sink on each wall so a sink is always just one click away ;-) -- Best regards, Miguel A. Urech (El Escorial - Spain) Using The Bat! v3.5.0.31 on Windows 2000 5.0 Service Pack 4 Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: It worries me...
Hi Peter, In the message mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] which was apparently written on Thursday, June 30, 2005, 5:40:28 PM. I believe you wrote: PM on Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:28:16 +0100GMT (30.07.2005, 18:28 +0200GMT here), PM^^ PM you wrote: I bought new PC at weekend.. must have mis clicked the month.. -- Best regards, Liz (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Website: http://www.xcalibur.co.uk Current beta is 3.5.34 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
On 6/30/05, Alexander S. Kunz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you a programmer? I'm not an international-level cricketer or footballer or tennis player, but that doesn't stop me passing informed comment on them. Or that what you think informed is. This whole discussion is just weird. I think Mic hit the nail on the head. You don't need to be a domain expert in everything to pass good judgement on it. I don't have to be a programmer (although I am) to understand that there's something wrong. It's pretty easy to look at the net result and conclude that something is flawed in the process. After all, if the process was working well, so should the end product. This isn't to trivialize the amount of working that goes into writing an app, but c'mon, we paid for it. We wouldn't expect this quality from anyone else. If my accountant consistently messed up my taxes, I wouldn't expect it to excused because the documents are hard to interpret. If my lawyer consistently wrote contracts for me that simply don't hold up in court, I wouldn't say, don't worry about it pal, it's hard, complex work. My point is, we can certainly empathize, but we shouldn't excuse. -- Kevin Current beta is 3.5.34 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Alexander S. Kunz wrote: ASK Hello George Mitchell everyone else, ASK on 30-Jun-2005 at 05:41 you (George Mitchell) wrote: ASK Are you a programmer? Yes. ASK And you have maintained projects of similar complexity, I assume? As part of a team I was involved in the development/maintenance of a much more complicated project. Obviously, I'm not privy to Ritlabs' internal processes and TB!'s architecture. But, from my observations of TB! releases, I'm certain their processes are flawed and I fear the program's architecture is as well. -- George Using The Bat! 3.0.2.8 on Windows XP Pro, Service Pack 2. Current beta is 3.5.34 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[3]: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Hello Leif, Thursday, June 30, 2005, 4:27:50 PM, you wrote: If you look at it, that's exactly what RITLabs and every developer who is putting out applications is dealing with. Some new functionality is needed and you have to figure out how to incorporate it in without breaking something else. Sometimes it's easy, oftentimes it's not. Leif, I am no programmer but I work in an industry that has to have very resilient products and the thing that is worrying me about TB development is the apparent effort being extended to add new features/functions when there are issues with the existing ones. RL would do themselves a lot of favours if they implemented a feature/function freeze at the present time and picked off all the existing bugs. Get the code base stable before implementing anything else... Once stable implement one feature at a time into the betas so you know what is breaking what... I would dearly love TB to continue and get back on track but I have already started evaluating other options (none of which appear to be as complete as TB) as a fallback position. Come on guys, we *are* behind you on this (we wouldn't be testing otherwise!) we just want some stability to the product before more changes are made... Thanks for reading -- Tony Brookes [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.tonybro.com Using The Bat! v3.5.28 on Windows XP Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.5.35 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
On Thursday, June 30, 2005, 12:05:37 PM, Kevin Menard wrote: After all, if the process was working well, so should the end product. There is at least part of the rub. The product works pretty damn well. -- Dwight A. Corrin 928 S Broadway Wichita KS 67211 316.303.1411 fax 316.265.7568 dcorrin at fastmail.fm Using The Bat! 3.5.34 on Windows XP version 5,1 Current beta is 3.5.35 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
On 6/30/05, Dwight A Corrin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is at least part of the rub. The product works pretty damn well. I'd urge you to look at the amount of list traffic. It may work well for you, but it does not appear to work well as a general purpose mail client. It's to the point where I can't even use it for my every day work. It's also one of the very few programs I've touched in the past 3 years or so that gives me AVs. -- Kevin Current beta is 3.5.35 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[4]: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Hello Tony, Thursday, June 30, 2005, 12:07:23 PM, you wrote: I am no programmer but I work in an industry that has to have very resilient products and the thing that is worrying me about TB development is the apparent effort being extended to add new features/functions when there are issues with the existing ones. RL would do themselves a lot of favours if they implemented a feature/function freeze at the present time and picked off all the existing bugs. Get the code base stable before implementing anything else... I can't necessarily disagree with you, but in 100% honesty, adding new features is thousands of times more fun (for a coder) than tracking down bugs. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, I'm just speaking from my own experience as a coder. It's human nature and the RITLabs guys are human too (well, I've never seen them in person but I think it's a safe assumption! grin). During a project management / software development lifecycle, I really hate the bug fixing phase. It's a necessary evil, but it's exceptionally boring and frustrating most times. Again, it doesn't make it right, it just speaks to the issue at hand in terms of human nature. I too would like to see the existing bugs fixed before adding any new functionality, but I also deeply empathize with them. I'll just continue to sit on this fence! grin -- __ TBUDL/BETA/DEV/TECH Lists Moderator / PGP 0x6C0AB16B ( ) ( ___)(_ _)( ___) TBUDP Wiki Site: http://www.PCWize.com/thebat/tbudp )(__ )__) _)(_ )__) Roguemoticons Smileys:http://PCWize.com/thebat ()()()(__)PHP Tutorials and snippets:http://www.DevTek.org Current beta is 3.5.35 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
On Thursday, June 30, 2005, 1:23:46 PM, Kevin Menard wrote: I'd urge you to look at the amount of list traffic. I see the list traffic. Lots of it is the same few people repeating the same complaints over and over. And threads like this with miles of handwringing and telling about how if they were in charge, things would sure be different around here. Since I switched to IMAP on 6/6, and started new batch of folders, I see 2,347 messages on this list, and 694 on TBUDL. Since I joined the Mulberry list on 6/10, they have 190 posts. There was more flaming there, people here are more polite, Cyrus Daboo posts a lot so one knows he is paying attention, and that probably helps there. But I'm rocking along here reading all that mail on TB! without many problems, filtering and searching work well, my pre IMAP database of about 150,000 messages is still where I can access it, and I can search both groups separately or together, and every time that I go to use Mulberry for comparison, I am glad that TB! works so well and that it is here to use. it does not appear to work well as a general purpose mail client You must live in a different world. Or you have never had to rely on Outlook, or OE, or Pegasus, or Eudora. It's also one of the very few programs I've touched in the past 3 years or so that gives me AVs. There have certainly been some bad decision making in making the betas also be the currently released product, and if all this complaining was among users on TBUDL they would have more room to complain, but this is a beta list, and this is beta testing. It's kind of ironic that right now all the complaining is about betas which act like betas, when just a few weeks ago there was all this complaining because there was no aggressive beta cycle going on. There was so much begging that we got an alpha, then there was complaining because the alpha had bugs and AVs. Now we have a large contingent who want to redesign the whole process because the people in Moldavia obviously don't have a clue about anything. Out of all the areas of expertise mentioned or unmentioned in this thread, I'd have to say that professionals in the areas discussed often know more and can judge better than all the volunteer experts. I would say that while I'm not a professional chef, I can judge when food is palatable to me, when it has too much salt etc. Usually when it isn't spicy (piquant) enough, it's way to hot for others to eat, but my tongue still knows. Past that, however, I tend to defer to the experts on lots of the technical matters. I don't do my own taxes, and when people ask me for tax advice I decline. If you pulled up in front of my house in an older car, pre fuel injection pre electronic ignition, maybe a 1978 VW, I could probably get it to run better, but I'm not sure where the spark plugs are on the car I'm driving now. I'm often faced to explain to a client that the legal advice s/he's getting from his/her father-in-law or from over the fence really isn't right and doesn't apply to their situation. Here in the states, you can always turn on a radio and find out lots of better ways to run any team in any team sport, (except hockey since they self-destructed :( ), who to trade, who to bench, etc. I'm sure lots of those people would be able to straighten out TB! as well. -- Dwight A. Corrin 928 S Broadway Wichita KS 67211 316.303.1411 fax 316.265.7568 dcorrin at fastmail.fm Using The Bat! 3.5.35 on Windows XP version 5,1 Current beta is 3.5.35 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: It worries me...
Hi Leif, In the message mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] which was apparently written on Thursday, June 30, 2005, 7:52:05 PM. I believe you wrote: LG I can't necessarily disagree with you, but in 100% honesty, adding new LG features is thousands of times more fun (for a coder) than tracking LG down bugs. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, I'm just LG speaking from my own experience as a coder. It's human nature and the LG RITLabs guys are human too (well, I've never seen them in person but I LG think it's a safe assumption! grin). no one can disagree new things are more fun, however, when you're being paid for it, you need to do whats best, this often isnt whats fun. -- Best regards, Liz (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Website: http://www.xcalibur.co.uk Current beta is 3.5.35 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[5]: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Hello Leif, Thursday, June 30, 2005, 7:52:05 PM, you wrote: adding new features is thousands of times more fun (for a coder) No doubt! We all have to have some fun sometimes ;-) It's a necessary evil, but it's exceptionally boring and frustrating most times. True but that's something we all have to live with in our professional and personal lives. To be successful sometimes you have to just get on with it - the secret is knowing when that time is :-) I'll just continue to sit on this fence! grin Watch someone doesn't sneak up and give you a push one way or the other then I think we are all just frustrated as we can see the potential and most things DO work MOST of the time -- Tony Brookes [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.tonybro.com Using The Bat! v3.5.28 on Windows XP Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.5.35 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
On 6/30/05, Dwight A Corrin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, June 30, 2005, 1:23:46 PM, Kevin Menard wrote: I'd urge you to look at the amount of list traffic. I see the list traffic. Lots of it is the same few people repeating the same complaints over and over. And threads like this with miles of handwringing and telling about how if they were in charge, things would sure be different around here. There's a difference between making a suggestion and saying if I was in charge, I would do this. The former is constructive, the latter is not. Perhaps we're repeating the same complaints over and over because the same bugs keep resurfacing (which good regression testing would address) and because overly broad goals are stated that are never achieved. it does not appear to work well as a general purpose mail client You must live in a different world. Or you have never had to rely on Outlook, or OE, or Pegasus, or Eudora. Making relative comparisons is a logical flaw. Something can suck, and just not suck as bad as the alternatives. That doesn't mean that it works well, it just means it works better than others. With that said, waiting minutes for it to refresh IMAP folders is ridiculous. Bring on OE or Pegasus or Eudora. If it can retrieve my mail in a timely manner and show the correct message (which TB! has a history of not doing), then I'd be tolerant of the mess that is TB! nowadays. There have certainly been some bad decision making in making the betas also be the currently released product, and if all this complaining was among users on TBUDL they would have more room to complain, but this is a beta list, and this is beta testing. Beta testing implies other testing has occurred. It is quite evident that is not the case. It's kind of ironic that right now all the complaining is about betas which act like betas, when just a few weeks ago there was all this complaining because there was no aggressive beta cycle going on. There was so much begging that we got an alpha, then there was complaining because the alpha had bugs and AVs. I wasn't part of that discussion, but I'd hardly say matters have improved much. Just a couple hours ago, we had two betas released back to back because the first one was broken. Now we have a large contingent who want to redesign the whole process because the people in Moldavia obviously don't have a clue about anything. Out of all the areas of expertise mentioned or unmentioned in this thread, I'd have to say that professionals in the areas discussed often know more and can judge better than all the volunteer experts. Who judges what makes a person an expert? Just because they produce the software doesn't make them experts. There are certainly plenty of software companies out there composed of junior programmers. Sure, it's a learning process, but operate in a closed world and you won't learn very much. RL needs to learn something from the current mess. I also wish you wouldn't put words into people's mouths. Where did anyone say that RL obviously don't have a clue about anything? I would honestly like to see such a quote, since I don't think inflammatory comments like that should be permitted on the list. I would say that while I'm not a professional chef, I can judge when food is palatable to me, when it has too much salt etc. Usually when it isn't spicy (piquant) enough, it's way to hot for others to eat, but my tongue still knows. Past that, however, I tend to defer to the experts on lots of the technical matters. We can keep going down the analogy road . . . Say you order a steak, and it comes back uncooked. You might see some grill marks, but it's quite evident it hasn't been cooked. Presuming you've actually cooked before, and probably do so on a regular basis, you've got a pretty good idea what the problem is. Certainly you know what the symptoms are. Would you not then be equipped to pass judgement on the chef's process? Or do you really feel that all you can say is this steak is too rare? Here in the states, you can always turn on a radio and find out lots of better ways to run any team in any team sport, (except hockey since they self-destructed :( ), who to trade, who to bench, etc. I'm sure lots of those people would be able to straighten out TB! as well. Ahh, good old sarcasm. The best way to hold a civil discussion. -- Kevin Current beta is 3.5.35 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[6]: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Hello Tony, Thursday, June 30, 2005, 1:12:59 PM, you wrote: Watch someone doesn't sneak up and give you a push one way or the other then talking to trout On Guard!!! Watch my six good buddy! /talking to trout grin I think we are all just frustrated as we can see the potential and most things DO work MOST of the time That I completely understand. Dwight hit the nail on the head in: mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] though. Part of the problem is that collectively as beta-testers, we've historically been pretty wishy-washy in terms of how we think RITLabs should be operating. Granted there are baselines for operation, but you gotta give credit where credit is due in that RITLabs has tried various methods to please us. We're just finicky! grin -- __ TBUDL/BETA/DEV/TECH Lists Moderator / PGP 0x6C0AB16B ( ) ( ___)(_ _)( ___) TBUDP Wiki Site: http://www.PCWize.com/thebat/tbudp )(__ )__) _)(_ )__) Roguemoticons Smileys:http://PCWize.com/thebat ()()()(__)PHP Tutorials and snippets:http://www.DevTek.org Current beta is 3.5.35 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: It worries me...
Hello Leif! On Thursday, June 30, 2005, 2:40 PM, you wrote: Some bugs are just greasier and nastier to get hold of. I need a bug smiley grin Some bug larvae are worms? :worm2: -- Best regards, Mary The Bat 3.5.35 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.5.35 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
At 16:38 [GMT+0200] on Thursday June 30 (actual time - 10:38pm on Thursday in Perth, Western Australia), you wrote: Are you a programmer? I'm not an international-level cricketer or footballer or tennis player, but that doesn't stop me passing informed comment on them. Or that what you think informed is. Sure, but my boss clearly agrees, as he keeps employing me to write my informed comments, and people continue to read my stuff. Works for me. If something isn't working properly in your car, do you just ignore it because you're not a qualified mechanic? -- cheers, mic The hearts of fools are in their mouths, but the mouths of the wise are in their hearts. - Jewish Proverb Current beta is 3.5.35 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
[OT] Re: It worries me...
Hi Francis MS I worries me that it seems that TheBat came to a stage where it is MS difficult to find bugs and hard to fix them. Old and very old bugs are MS still present and any new version which claims to fix some bugs has new MS ones - things which worked before are suddenly broken... FS 't might become difficult to browse through so many code lines... FS In order to repair one bug introduced in 3.5.32, Ritlab came today with FS 3.5.33... with a 500 Kb bigger exe-file!!! thebat.exe is now weighting FS almost 12 Mb. Compare with a three month old version... Not wishing to put words into any RL (or any other) keyboards here. This is just a general observation. Many new features are being added at the moment. Often at this stage in a program's development cycle things can get a little complicated. But those growing pains tend to be followed by good consolidation and a stronger, sleeker program at the end of the process. It's a little like a bird emerging from its egg for the first time. When it was an egg, all it had to concern itself with was keeping its yoke together and whether the speckles on its shell were lookin' good today. But then, as it grows, it gets a whole set of new stuff it needs to worry about: What should I do with these enormous feet things?; Won't all this beak business just get in the way?; What if I'm alergic to feathers?. The list, believe me, is endless! And in the end, of course, the beak does get in the way and the cool-lookin' shell gets broken and the feathers don't even work properly at first. And then the bird trips over those enormous feet things and quite possibly falls right out of its comfort zone - I mean nest. Now, what kinda smart design is that? Well, I guess that'd be the kinda smart design where those feet things grow and develop and become strong enough to power that swan across the largest lake it can find and where the feathers turn out to be really snug in winter, cool in summer and even more cool when you get bored with swimming and fancy a spot of flying - not to mention, of course, prettier than a very pretty thing. And the beak? Well, I think the beak speaks for itself. :) -- Groetjes Natasha The Bat! 3.5.33 on Windows XP Professional 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Natasha V Pearce wrote: NVP It's a little like a bird emerging from its egg for the first NVP time. More like a house of cards that keeps getting taller and taller... Clearly the code has exceeded the developers' ability to manage it. -- George Using The Bat! 3.0.2.8 on Windows XP Pro, Service Pack 2. Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Bonjour Natasha, NVP It's a little like a bird emerging from its egg for the first NVP time. [...] ... even more cool when you get bored with swimming and fancy a spot of NVP flying - not to mention, of course, prettier than a very pretty thing. I like the cute metaphor (well a long periphrasis actually) :-) ... But I hope that the nice little bird won't become an ugly ostrich or a Windows-like vulture... The point is that the continuous addition of fancy features appears actually to prevent Ritlabs from eradicating prehistorical bugs or brand new ones like the source viewer display problem (https://www.ritlabs.com/bt/view.php?id=4813), which obliges me to use the 3.5.25 version instead of the actual 3.5.33. Best regards -- FRANCIS J. SEGOND Webpage: http://faustroll.net, http://butsu.org PGP-Key: http://www.segond.de/pubkey/segond.asc Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
--On Thursday, June 30, 2005 1:55 am +1200 Natasha V Pearce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's a little like a bird emerging from its egg for the first time. Yes, completely scrambled! -- Tony iMac Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
--On Wednesday, June 29, 2005 7:32 am -0700 George Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Clearly the code has exceeded the developers' ability to manage it. I fully agree. The true purpose of what it is supposed to be capable of has been forgotten in favour of smileys, rogue faces, pretty little icons, Birthday reminders, notepads, themes, html, etc. The list of non essential bloat is getting longer. The fact it's supposed to be able to send and receive email seems to have been totally forgotten. And what really P's me off is, if you send a bug report about it's inability to collect and display email you get totally ignored. Send in a spelling mistake or missing icon and either Max or 9val reply straight away the very next post with We'll fix that right now... Which fully corroborates your statement above. All I want is a decent client that handles email *properly* and has good filters. TB has good filters but it's now a really crap unusable email client, at least for IMAP users it is. -- Tony iMac Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Hello George Mitchell everyone else, on 29-Jun-2005 at 16:32 you (George Mitchell) wrote: Clearly the code has exceeded the developers' ability to manage it. Are you a programmer? -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981) Deliplayer2 is playing: Clusterbend (9:17) by Modula Green from the 1995 album 'Shellground' Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
More like a house of cards that keeps getting taller and taller... Clearly the code has exceeded the developers' ability to manage it. I don't think that follows. They said they were adding unicode support, and that it involves some changes in program architecture. It is to be expected that the program would become unstable until it all gets integrated again, and it has. TB has started disappearing from my screen without warning, getting tangled up and sending the same message over and over. I sure hope they get it back to where it was in a few weeks. Unicode support is necessary for languages like Chinese that have more than 255 possible characters. Gleason Using The Bat! v3.5.33 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Primarily using the Fastmail IMAP server which uses Cyrus. Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re[2]: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Wednesday, June 29, 2005, 12:11:29 PM, (Internet Time - ) you wrote: Hello Alexander, ASK Hello George Mitchell everyone else, ^ ASK on 29-Jun-2005 at 16:32 you (George Mitchell) wrote: Clearly the code has exceeded the developers' ability to manage it. ASK Are you a programmer? No I am not a programer...:) -- Best regards, Michael mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Using The Bat! Version 3.5.33 On Windows XP SP2 Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Mod: Cut mark (was: [OT] Re: It worries me...)
Hallo Gleason, On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 10:14:27 -0700GMT (29-6-2005, 19:14 +0200, where I live), you wrote: GP Gleason GP Using The Bat! v3.5.33 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 GP Service Pack 2 Primarily using the Fastmail GP IMAP server which uses Cyrus. moderator Note: This moderator's interjection is a note to all readers and not just to the person being replied to, even if their post may have instigated this reply. Please don't feel singled out Gleason. ' Please include a signature delimiter in your messages. This consists of a dashdashspacereturn, i.e., a '-- ' by itself on a line. This allows your readers, when replying, to quote your text without the signature and list footers since everything below and including the sig delimiter is excluded when quoting. You can easily automate this process by including the sig delimiter in your templates. Even if you barely have a signature to speak of, that doesn't make any difference to whether or not you need a cut mark. You are being courteous to other readers since at least three lines of text is added to your signature by the list server. To find out why these MOD messages are posted to the list instead of private mail, please read the welcome message you received when you subscribed. Thank you. /moderator -- Groetjes, Roelof Second star to the right, and straight on 'til morning. - Kirk The Bat! 3.5.33 Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 1 pop3 account, server on LAN OTFE enabled P4 3GHz 2 GB RAM pgpVe85eOUHTm.pgp Description: PGP signature Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: It worries me...
Hi Michael, In the message mid:[EMAIL PROTECTED] which was apparently written on Wednesday, June 29, 2005, 6:35:09 PM. I believe you wrote: Clearly the code has exceeded the developers' ability to manage it. ASK Are you a programmer? MA No I am not a programer...:) He may not be, but I know a few lurkers on this group are, me included. We've seen a lot of releases where strange odd things are broken, and it seems that a lot of unit tests usually done by the developer are either skipped or somehow successful where for so many of us it fails. Im losing faith in TB, when my friend who lurks here told me of it, I was awstruck, it was good in so many ways, now for what it did when I first arrived Ive needed nothing new, but, I upgraded, I regret upgrading as things I used, no longer do, and more things Im not after yet, have arrived. As a developer I do know how hard it is to write something to suit everyone, however, if you broke something that used to work, rather than add new stuff, its much better for the confidence of your userbase to fix the broke stuff, before adding new. We all understand breakages, stuff happens, but when it remains broken, and ignored.. quite often people report bugs because they used that feature, and now their usage is hampered. -- Best regards, Liz (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) Website: http://www.xcalibur.co.uk Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: It worries me...
On 7/29/05, Liz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We've seen a lot of releases where strange odd things are broken, and it seems that a lot of unit tests usually done by the developer are either skipped or somehow successful where for so many of us it fails. With that said, I'm quite certain that regression testing in non-existent. Well, precluding this list ;-) As a developer I do know how hard it is to write something to suit everyone, however, if you broke something that used to work, rather than add new stuff, its much better for the confidence of your userbase to fix the broke stuff, before adding new. We all understand breakages, stuff happens, but when it remains broken, and ignored.. quite often people report bugs because they used that feature, and now their usage is hampered. Another concern of mine is the actual development strategy. Now, I know agile and XP methods are the new fad in development and are not suitable for everything, but it would benefit RL to adopt some of these practices. For example, saying the next beta series is going to address IMAP is unreasonable. IMAP is a big component and it's currently broken in a lot of ways. If instead RL broke things down into user stories, e.g., The user clicks the delete button and the message is removed immediately and worked on getting some of those accomplished in short, iterative cycles, they'd probably see much better results. As it is, when we see things such as IMAP fixes, the fixes are so disjoint from one another that it's not even clear what the focus was. Now, feel free to replace IMAP with any particular feature you'd like to see working. -- Kevin Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: It worries me...
On Wednesday, June 29, 2005, 1:54:02 PM, Kevin Menard wrote: Now, I know agile and XP methods are the new fad in development and are not suitable for everything, but it would benefit RL to adopt some of these practices. For example, saying the next beta series is going to address IMAP is unreasonable. IMAP is a big component and it's currently broken in a lot of ways. If instead RL broke things down into user stories, e.g., The user clicks the delete button and the message is removed immediately and worked on getting some of those accomplished in short, iterative cycles, they'd probably see much better results. It seems to me that the role of beta testers is to test, and the role of the programmers is to program and debug. I haven't written any code as a professional for a long time, and mostly in languages you can't even study any more. I understand there was some demand for people with my skills during the now forgotten Y2K era, but none now. I don't feel like it is my place to formulate the path and since I don't have a copy of the road map or of the code, I think I'll just keep testing, and try to help when I things seem broken. -- Dwight A. Corrin 928 S Broadway Wichita KS 67211 316.303.1411 fax 316.265.7568 dcorrin at fastmail.fm Using The Bat! 3.5.32 on Windows XP version 5,1 Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: It worries me...
On 6/29/05, Dwight A Corrin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't feel like it is my place to formulate the path and since I don't have a copy of the road map or of the code, I think I'll just keep testing, and try to help when I things seem broken. That's unfortunate. The customer should always formulate the path. Engineers operate in a closed world. I've run into it many times myself, so this isn't an RL-specific thing. Engineers will spend loads of time developing features that users don't want and never will use, while ignoring things that users actually want. There should be constant communication between the customer and the developer. The customer should say this is what we want and the developer should say okay, this is how long it will take to get there by taking such and such steps. As for beta testing, it's getting a bit old without any real regression testing going on. Every other beta, old fixed bugs creep back in, so we just end up reporting the same thing over and over again. -- Kevin Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Alexander S. Kunz wrote: ASK Hello George Mitchell everyone else, ASK Are you a programmer? Yes. -- George Using The Bat! 3.0.2.8 on Windows XP Pro, Service Pack 2. Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
Hello George Mitchell everyone else, on 30-Jun-2005 at 05:41 you (George Mitchell) wrote: ASK Are you a programmer? Yes. And you have maintained projects of similar complexity, I assume? -- Best regards, Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de - ICQ 238153981) Which would you rather have, a bursting planet or an earthquake here and there? -- John Joseph Lynch Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
Re: [OT] Re: It worries me...
ASK Are you a programmer? Yes. And you have maintained projects of similar complexity, I assume? Good point. Look around at the other candidates. See how they mostly have approximately 10 year development histories. See how they all are at one level of disarray or another. What is it about writing email clients that is so fiendishly difficult? I have written a couple of programs that interact with http servers, so I have some idea. Yes, I think forbearance is justified. TB is a small marvel as it stands. Gleason Using The Bat! v3.5.33 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 2 Primarily using the Fastmail IMAP server which uses Cyrus. Current beta is 3.5.33 | 'Using TBBETA' information: http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html IMPORTANT: To register as a Beta tester, use this link first - http://www.ritlabs.com/en/partners/testers/
