Re: The Bat! - suggestions

[Steve Lamb]

Thursday, January 06, 2000, 12:29:54 AM, Thomas wrote:
> Instead of Purging & Compressing every time I close The Bat!, I
> would like to have an option to Purge & Compress manually.

You can do that now.

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Re: suggestion- / wish-list

[Steve Lamb]

Thursday, January 06, 2000, 12:17:45 AM, Oleg wrote:
> Why? Just wonder, I can't imagine why there could be needed 3 trailing
> spaces at the end of line.

As you might have noticed I indent the first line of each paragraph 4
lines.  So imagine the following scenario.  I split a quote, drop down the
separator line, indent, then decide I want to do something else.  Move, do it,
come back, have to reindent because the spaces were "lost."  :)

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Re: Send from account (was:Re[2]: Pegasus vs. The Bat!)

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 05, 2000, 10:33:08 PM, Thomas wrote:
> Or enable View/From in the editor window.

IIRC this does not change through which SMTP server the message is sent.
That can cause problems with the anti-relay rules some ISPs have put in place.

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Re: Pegasus vs. The Bat!

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 05, 2000, 8:05:20 PM, tracer wrote:
> I see nothing complicated on the few emails going to the wrong place
> to get an filter added.

Exactly.  I think it is less of a burden than keeping it all separate
through filters.

> More important I think is that the current backup system is lousy and
> inadequate... I am sure you could think of a better system involving a few
> changes in the bat for people with a lot of mail so that the program opens
> snappy but hasnt got all the old data there unless its needed.

Well, for me, TB! does open up snappy both at work and at home.  In a
discussion off list one person said that they counted the initial message
counting in the startup process.  To me that isn't counted because it is in a
separate thread.  I don't care if it takes 2 seconds or 2 hours.  During that
time TB! is retrieving mail, I can respond to mail, life goes on.  By moving
all my archived mail into a separate account (z_archive_z) it is counted last.
I have accurate counts in my main accounts in under 10-30 seconds (depends on
machine).  Again, during that time TB! does other work.

If people want a horrible start time, take a look at Eudora.  Even in 4.x
which is /supposed/ to be multithreaded it takes forever to do even the
simplest tasks.  TB! is quite speedy compared to that pig.

As for archiving proper, I don't think any client really does offer decent
automatic archiving.  Then again, I am of the school of thought that I can
always do it myself.  If I want archives I'm going to do it right with a
proper archiver and do incremental timed backups, off-machine backups, etc.  I
would not and do not want RIT to concern themselves with reimplmenting
something that another author has created.  It would take time away from RIT's
work on TB! and whatever work they did put into an archival system would pale
to the powerful archive tools and a few simple scripts from me.

What RIT has done is made it simple for data to be archived off TB!.  If
you remove message bases and folders, as long as TB! is not running at the
time, it doesn't complain.  The data is well laid out, easy to get at and easy
to manipulate.  That is all they should be required to do.

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Pegasus oddities

[Steve Lamb]

OK, this takes the cake.  Today, because of my discussion with Alex over
Pegasus vs. TB! I downloaded Pegasus, installed it on my work machine, and
tried it out on my home server with both POP and IMAP.  Now, a few hours
later, Thomas is reporting getting OLD messages from me.  He sent me one which
was an internal IMAP storage message from my unix outbox.  Somehow Pegasus
sent my outbox (I'm sure all 300+ messages of it) to Thomas.

I have no clue how it did it.

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Re: Pegasus vs. The Bat!

[Steve Lamb]

On Thu, Jan 06, 2000 at 05:32:08AM +0300, Alexander V. Kiselev wrote:
> First of all, you and I use e-mail for different purposes and besides we've
> got different habits of working with it, hence we're not likely to arrive to
> a common denominator here:-) Anyhow, a couple of comments below:

Exactly my point.  We use email differently.  The way you do it forces the
user to go through added steps whereas mine does not.  It is called a matter
of choice and your solution doesn't offer it.  You don't care because you
don't want to operate outside the very limited set Pegasus offers.  I am
pointing out that from my perspective you can do other things with my
solution.  That is the fundimental difference.

> It's *my* boss, not yours:-) He's got lots of other things to do other then 
> remembering my e-mail addresses:-) He usually just presses "Reply", and *I* 
> use different e-mail addresses at home and at work, hence his replies come 
> (at minimum) to both:-)

Before you stated that he, "seemingly arbitrarily" picks a random address
to send you mail.  Now you are saying that he replies.  That means it is your
fault for him sending different letters to differernt addresses.  IE, you
causing the problem that Pegasus magically solves is not a good argument for
that being a solution.

Here's another one that works.

Mail him from one address.  Oddly enough, when you have separate accounts,
that is pretty much automatic, isn't it?

> Nope, wrong here. Pegasus lets you assign any identity to any folder,
> *including* the attached mailbox folders. This works much like in TB,
> although Pegasus doesn't make use of templates the way TB does. In the case
> discussed, I'd just create the identity with the proper dial-up settings
> (the dial- up settings of the attached mailbox, verbatim) and attach it to
> the "Separate me" mailbox... That would have done the trick. 

And therefore having to do it for every folder?  I have over 30 folders
across my two accounts, I'm not about to define in each which "personality" to
use with which.  Separate accounts takes care of that automatically.

> > > Not the case with Pegasus, look above.
 
> > I did and by your own admission it does not work.
 
> Seems it does:-)

Then why did you say it didn't?

> TB stores filters inefficiently; create 10 filters and you'll in a short
> time forget which is where and what it does. 

Funny, I don't forget what "ML: tbudl@..." means.  "Mailing list, address
follows".  Same with PErsonal, BUsiness and ReMove filters.

> for version 2. OTOH, in Pegasus all the above-mentioned functionality is
> already at your fingertips, therefore it doesn't really matter whether I've
> got 100 or 1000 filters:-)

It does to me.  Each filter means processing time spent doing things other
than what my machine should be doing.  Furthermore it does matter since I have
to create all of those filters in the first place just to do what the client
should have done in the first place, KEEP THE EMAIL STREAMS SEPARATE.
 
> I've got much more:-) Filtering *really* helps, when it's efficient. 

Yes, it is.  Filtering is even better when you don't have to use filters
to mangle the client into do what it should have done in the first place.
I've got enough filters in TB! (and PMMail before it) that spam gets filtered,
I get notified of new mail with unique sounds, that mail gets filed correctly.
I do so with the bare minimum.  I don't need to configure anouther 20-30
folder templates (or "personalities") and add another 3-4 filters per
personality (not to mention more conditions on each "global" filter to sort
the mail properly based on "personality") just to get my mail into a sane
state of affairs.

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Re: Address Auto-view (was: Rogue Gallery)

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 05, 2000, 3:37:50 PM, John wrote:
> It would be real nice if The Bat! supported both techniques!

I'd be happy if TB! would have its tray icon in the tray even if it isn't
minimized.  For people (*cough, cough*) who use virtual desktops there is a
lot of time when the application isn't on the screen but it isn't minimized,
either.

I'd also love to see the ticker have the ability to be docked *and* be a
separate process in the process table so I could dock it to the bottom of my
screen above the task bar and then tell my virtual desktop manager to place
that object on all my desktops.

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Re: Pegasus vs. The Bat!

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 05, 2000, 2:54:57 PM, Alexander wrote:
>> No, there is a lot more to it than that.

> Having read this message of yours, I still don't see other differences...

Forcing the user to filter to gain a sane default is the difference.

> For you, but not for me.

Right.  As I pointed out by starting with the flawed personalities
paradigm you're forcing the end user (you *and* me) to filter things out.
Most people that I know don't think that way.

> This would in turn mean that I'll need even more a complicated filter
> structure (with multi-account filtering) then what I've got in Pegasus right
> now.

Or, what I would do, drag the mail to the right folder, reply, and inform
him not to use the other addresses for an inappropriate use.  If it persists,
create a filter to automatically bounce back to him until he gets a clue.

Yes, I've done that to my boss at one time when I finally separated my
personal from private mail and he insisted on using the wrong one.

> on, whenever I check the mail, Pegasus will check the mail for *both* users,
> and the mail for "Separate me" will NOT be mixed with the rest of the input 
> stream in any way. Note, that since the attached mailboxes in Pegasus are 
> "sticky", the next time I log into the program that "Separate me" mailbox will still 
> be attached;-)

But, as you pointed out, by going into that structure the "personality"
doesn't change.  That is very bad, IMHO.

> Not in the case described above.

> [description of how you work snipped...]

Yes, in the case described above.

> Not the case with Pegasus, look above.

I did and by your own admission it does not work.

> It's not the thing that will work all right when dial-up connection is what
> one uses:-( Forwarding all my mail to one account isn't the thing I want to
> try, as you might guess:-)

Trying to keep track of a tangled mess of filters just to keep a sane
state of mailboxes is not something I want to try.  To get TB! functionality
with Pegasus (or others) I need to manually move a lot of mail when I create
it and have 3-4 separate filters for each account.

> So, as I see it, I've explained how in Pegasus TB's default behaviour can be
> completely mimicked, but the reverse involves forwarding and is hence 
> inappropriate solution:-)

No, as you stated, it cannot be completely mimicked.  The forwarding is
just merging into a single stream and is appropriate since that is all Pegasus
and others *FORCE* you to do in the first place.  If it is inappropriate to
forward than it is equally inappropriate for these programs to do it
internally to themselves.

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Re: copying old messages

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 05, 2000, 2:54:21 PM, Keith wrote:
> A separate ACCOUNT? So did you totally recreate your folder structure
> there? Every time you add a new folder, do you have to add it to both
> accounts? Or did I misunderstand what you're doing?

Yes, a separate account.  You must keep in mind, though, that I move my
mail from home to work and back again 5 days a week.  This means at home I
have my home account, my work account and my home archives.  At work it is
home, work, work archives.  I keep all my sent mail (except for extremely
large attachments) and in case of work mail all work requests that find their
way to my inbox.  I don't want to transport the ~9,000 messages from work and
~15,000 messages from home back and forth each day.  The ~3,000 I lug around
takes a while to archive up as it is.  :)

With that aside the only folder structure I recreate are whatever folders
I have archives for.  I don't archive a lot of incoming mail.  Mainly what is
archived is inbox (single) and sent mail (year folders with month subfolders).

These archives reside outside the mail subdirectory so I can just archive
that directory for transport.

Reallt, though, considering how often I add folders if I were to add one
more into the archive folder isn't all that much.  Maybe once every few
months.

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Re: Pegasus vs. The Bat!

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 05, 2000, 1:48:56 PM, Alexander wrote:
> Seems that the two things that you call "multiple accounts" and "multiple
> instances" differ only when the folder structure is concerned.

No, there is a lot more to it than that.

> At least, in the case of Pegasus. In PMail, two identities may happily have
> absolutely different settings (*all* settings), *but* they always share the
> same Inbox, same Outbox, same Trash and same Sent folders.

This is "personalities" (Eudora/Lookout! term).  It is not a separate
account since the mail does not come in separately.  It is all mixed in and
jumbled together, requiring the user to build filters just to keep it
separate.  This is a very undesirable position to be in.

Different "instances" means that I could get different structures but I'd
have to, again, mangle it in one form or another just to get a sane
configuration.

> Now, if this is correct, I *really* prefer how Pegasus works then! TB forces
> me to have separate Sent folder for each account -- I needn't this at all!

I have two accounts.  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> and
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.  One is work and one is home.  I don't feel like
having to build filters to keep my work mail separate from my home mail on
incoming, outgoing, drafts, sent and trash folders.  I'd much rather not have
to explain to my boss why I have love letters in my "work" account or why
internal confidential memos are in my "personal" account.  I'd like to think
that is how most people would work by default, which is why I called the
"personalities" system flawed.

If I ever get to be a Debian maintainer, I don't want any of that mail
mingled with my work or home mail.

If I ever really seriously start working with my domain I don't want any
of that mail mingled with anything else.

> OTOH, *if* I need to "emulate" the same thing in Pegasus, I can do so in a
> pretty simple manner: via filters:-)

I don't consider it simple compared to creating a new account and having
it done as a matter of the program's policy.

Incidentally that solution is what is presented to me time and time again
on comp.os.linux.misc when I point out that there are no good email clients
for Linux.  I am constantly pointed to the following solution.

1: Use fetchmail to retrieve mail from all the different pop servers.

2: Have fetchmail dump it all into one account on my local machine.

3: Then use filter (procmail or exim's filters) to split the mail back out
into separate folders.

4: Use mutt to read the different folders with each folder being programmed
with a different address and fcc folder for different "sentmail" folders.
Nevermind it all goes back out my local SMTP server which is not desirable.

They consider that "simple."  And notice how Pegasus, Eudora, Lookout! and
virtually every other client out there except for TB! and PMMail do the same
thing.  They retrieve mail from the difference sources, merge it all into a
single stream and then force the user to filter it out from there.

BTW, you are aware that you can have TB! function just like Pegasus in
that regard if you chose?  Forward all your mail to a single account, use TB!
filters to filter it out from there, have different templates and filters to
change "personalities" for you and keep it separate.

Difference is, at least you have that choice.  :)

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Re: (No Subject)

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 05, 2000, 9:20:14 AM, Tim wrote:
> What exactly is the UNIX mailbox format?  I would have thought that
> would be my best bet here, but it doesn't seem to work.

Here is an example...

>From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jul 25 04:43:48 1999
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 04:43:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mail System Internal Data <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: DON'T DELETE THIS MESSAGE -- FOLDER INTERNAL DATA
X-IMAP: 0923471485 39
Status: RO

This text is part of the internal format of your mail folder, and is not
a real message.  It is created automatically by the mail system software.
If deleted, important folder data will be lost, and it will be re-created
with the data reset to initial values.

>From morpheus Tue Mar 16 00:20:55 1999
Content-Length: 755
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 00:20:55 -0800
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.94.12i
Lines: 18
XFMstatus: 
From: Steve Lamb 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Comm traffic - Devious
Status: RO
X-Status: 
X-Keywords:
X-UID: 1

>Upon reaching the comm station, Grey notices a number of other lights
>vying for his attention.  Besides Chudd's comsignal, three other
>transmissions are being beamed at the Devious.

Grey frowns at the comm board and waits for Driggz' to answer.

>"Angel, speaking of which can you get a visual on the excitement
>opposite me in the city?"

"Will do when we get a chance."  Grey taps off and checks the other
incoming messages.


-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | Opinions expressed by me are not my
http://www.calweb.com/~morpheus| employer's.  They hired me for my
 ICQ: 5107343  | skills and labor, not my opinions!
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>From morpheus Tue Mar 16 15:26:30 1999
Content-Length: 1418
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:26:30 -0800
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>



In the Unix mailbox format each message is preceeded by a "From" line.
"From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jul 25 04:43:48 1999" denotes the beginning of the 1st
message, "From morpheus Tue Mar 16 15:26:30 1999" denotes the beginning of
the 2nd message, and so on.

What what I've read of your current program you could export into a large
file, fine the #!rmail like and replace it with a generic From line.  That
should do the trick.  Quick perl script would do it.


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Re: Pegasus vs. The Bat!

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 05, 2000, 12:07:27 PM, Steve wrote:
> Nope, doesn't sound like it then from the rest of your description.  It
> has "Accounts" as in completely separate instances of Pegasus but not
> "accounts" as in different mail accounts in a single instance.

I was correct.  It does not allow for multiple accounts, only multiple
instances.

>> Supported in full starting from version 3.11 (the current one is 3.12b). Some
>> minor quircks have been reported although, related to moving folders as a 
>> whole from one IMAP account to another. 

> Well, at least that sounds like one thing they've done right.  :/

Nor is the IMAP support close to "full" in my opinion.  It is, however, a
far cry better than TB!'s.

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Re: Pegasus vs. The Bat!

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 05, 2000, 11:59:47 AM, Alexander wrote:
> I don't think so, David Harris isn't expected to rewrite *everything*:-) In
> fact, *I* personally have nothing against MDI. As you, I use virtual
> desktops alot, but contrary to you, MDI doesn't prevent me from working
> efficiently. I just always open PMail on the Mail&Inet desktop, and it
> happily stays there:-)

Ah well, too bad.  While TB! happily lives on my "communications" desktop
I need the ability to move individual message windows to different desktops
for easy reference on work items.  Moving the whole application isn't an
option as that takes up too much screen real-estate.

> Yes. Pegasus supports *both* completely separate accounts (although the
> password protection isn't supported currently unless you're on Netware) AND 
> identities *within* each account.

Nope, doesn't sound like it then from the rest of your description.  It
has "Accounts" as in completely separate instances of Pegasus but not
"accounts" as in different mail accounts in a single instance.

> Supported in full starting from version 3.11 (the current one is 3.12b). Some
> minor quircks have been reported although, related to moving folders as a 
> whole from one IMAP account to another. 

Well, at least that sounds like one thing they've done right.  :/

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Re: Pegasus vs. The Bat!

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 05, 2000, 11:04:41 AM, Alexander wrote:
> For version 3.2 (expected to be released in February, this year) alot of visual
> improvements are planned. Besides, what version of PMail were you using? 

I have to ask.  Will they finally drop the MDI interface?  I don't mind
MDI for my web browser (Opera) but for email it is unforgivable.  Also, do
they have completely separate accounts?  How's the IMAP support?

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Re: Pegasus vs. The Bat!

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 05, 2000, 10:38:45 AM, cid wrote:
> 3. Changing "Send from account..." Is there a more visible way to do
> this?

Yes, click on the account before sending.  ;)

Pegasus mail, IIRC, does not have completely separate accounts and,
instead, goes for the flawed "personalities" approach.  TB! has completely
separate accounts.  Simply click on the account you want to send from before
starting a new message.

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Re: copying old messages

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 04, 2000, 2:14:08 PM, Windisch wrote:
> Is it possible make TB move my old messages to another folder?

Automatically?  I don't believe so.

Personally I just created a separate archive account and move messages
from my main account to that account once a month.  Shift-select, drag and
drop.

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Re: upgrade

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 04, 2000, 1:11:46 PM, Windisch wrote:
> Oooops, sorry for these hungarian characters and quotation.
> I've just subscribed to this list and I haven't made It's own
> templates :) Sorry again :)

That's ok, I thought it was Klingon.  :)


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Re: Digest (01/05/2000 12:18) Special Issue (#2000-171)

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, January 05, 2000, 3:48:59 AM, Carsten wrote:
CR>> And here we go (translation mode: quick'n'dirty...)
CR>> "'The Bat! 1.22'
CR>>  The IMAP-implementation is a joke. As for a POP account The Bat!
CR>>  downloads all mails on the hard drive and deletes them from the
CR>>  server. That has nothing to do with server-based administration."

> *grin*  Thanks, saves me having to look it up... And yes, I thought it
> was something equally devastating! ;] I guess it's gotten a lot better
> since then, unfortunately I have no IMAP server to test it on.

Nope, it is still a joke.  IMAP has always been treated as nothing more
than a glorified POP server.  While there is nothing wrong with that if that
is all you're looking for, it is when you're looking for the full remote
capabilities that IMAP has to offer.

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Re: Check This Out

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 04, 2000, 8:22:45 PM, Thomas wrote:
> Steve, who's side are you on? ;-)

The good side.  Just pointing out what an inventive person can do with
that ready supply of unwanted ammunition.  ;)

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Re: Delete Confirmations ?

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 04, 2000, 5:53:01 PM, Nick wrote:
> What I meant to imply, was that one day TB might itself be subject to
> some kind of heinous virus... never say never, right!!  As to rest of
> your post, you can shove it Steve!!

I'm going to repeat this slowly this time.  Read it slowly and think.

Since TB! does not currently run programs in attachment automatically it
is *impossible* for a virus to be written to spread automatically through
that mechanism.

Let me add a few more words in case "impossible" has too many syllables
for you.

It can not happen.

It will not happen.

It will never happen.

See TB! get message.

See message have virus.

See TB! not run virus.

See virus die.

Die, virus, die.

> I'm open to everything... try different Programs... MS and non-MS, and have
> already indicated that I like TB and will purchase it. So, I really don't
> understand your childish tirade. Talk about a fool... take a look in the
> mirror.

MMmm, ok.  Wow, look at that handsome devil there.  Whoa, lady killer.
And hey, who is that dork behind me with the pleading eyes and holding a copy
of Outlook.  Why, it's Nick.  What do you know, he was right, I did see the
fool in the mirror.

My rant is that you're trolling on this list, rather poorly, and have made
sweeping and utterly FALSE statements which are easily disproven.  In short, I
have equated you to a liar.  I don't like liars.

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Re: Text Appearing in Red in Some Replies ?

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 04, 2000, 5:00:13 PM, Nick wrote:
> Technically, Outlook is a PIM, but to say it's not an E-Mail Client is
> not  quite  true.  What  exactly  do you mean by that?

Just that, it isn't an email client.  As you said, it is a PIM.  It does a
lot of things, all of them poorly.

> It's one of the slickest E-Mail Clients I've ever used... and I've used my
> share of them over the years.

That is why it can't keep separate accounts separate, doesn't let people
chose the font they want (Everything *MUST* be proportional!), breaks
standards left and right?

Uhm, no, "slick" is not how I'd term Lookout!  The *ONLY* thing it does
right is IMAP.  Too bad everything else it does wrong makes it unusable.

> 'meat and potatoes' of E-Mail processing, I always find myself going back to
> Outlook 2K.

For 'meat and potatoes' E-Mail processing, Lookout! fails because it
cannot keep separate accounts completely separate.  That is why of all the
Windows clients only TB! and PMMail fit the bill.

> I've used/have Eudora Pro, Agent 1.7, OE, Netscape Messenger, TB
> and a few others I can't remember right off hand...

Eudora, LO!, Netscape *Communicator*, TB!, PMMail98, Pine, PC-Pine, Mutt,
Elm, TKRat, Spruce, XFMail and I've tried nearly the whole list of Unix and
Windows clients there are.  If there is ever someone who has come close to
trying *every* client on www.winfiles.com & www.tucows.com's combined list of
E-mail clients, it is me.

> However, I find Outlook does the best job overall so far.

In your opinion now.  Give it time, that'll change.

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Re: Delete Confirmations ?

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 04, 2000, 4:53:17 PM, Nick wrote:
> Don't think though that TB is immune to those kinds of things... wasn't so
> long ago, that people thought that way of spreading viruses was impossible.

Nick.  In the simplest, easiest terms, let me explain this.  TB! is immune
to those kinds of things because it does *NOT* run anything automatically like
Microsoft products are wont to do.  Up until Microsoft came along it was
impossible and, outside of Microsoft, it still *IS* impossible.

Now, Nick, go back to your Microsoft world, read a *LOT* about the world
outside of it and don't come back until you understand a little more of how
the real world works.  If you don't, surely you'll make another grandiose and
utterly false statement like the one above and further cement your position as
this court's jester for all of time.

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Re: Delete Confirmations ?

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 04, 2000, 4:32:38 PM, Nick wrote:
> I knew I could do that... I was only trying to save myself all those
> mouse clicks. With Outlook, you can delete an entire thread with only
> one click. :o)  Sorry, couldn't hold that one back. Ha ha ha!!

With Outlook you can also have the latest viruses with no mouse clicks at
all.  You know, before Outlook I was correct in telling everyone that you had
to actually open the message *and* run the attachment to get a virus.
Microsoft, making yesterday's computer security paranoia reality today!

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Re: Text Appearing in Red in Some Replies ?

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 04, 2000, 4:28:48 PM, Nick wrote:
> TB. IMHO, Outlook 2K is a super Program in it's own way... one of the
> best I've ever seen, but it has to suit the user, right?

The fact that it isn't an email client kinda kills it right there.  :P


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Re: Stupid question re screenshot & red folders

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 04, 2000, 3:01:46 PM, Nick wrote:
> I  don't think it's a stupid question at all... I myself was wondering
> the same thing, but just haven't had the time to ask it. Sorry I can't
> give  you  an  answer,  rather just wanted you to know that the stupid
> question is one that is never asked. :o)

This is entirely true.  It was actually unsettling when I couldn't think
of the answer nor find out about it in just a few minutes of looking.  It is
rare for me to have that happen for programs that I use extensively on a daily
basis.  I was simply dumbfounded.  Someone, please, do tell!  :)

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Re: Check This Out

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 04, 2000, 11:10:28 AM, Marck wrote:
> He  spammed  us  and, for that sin, is condemned to read our ramblings
> until he rescinds his address.

Oooo, bad, bd idea.  Personally, if I were ever on the end of that I'd
just setup a filter, strip out all headers, recreate random ones and bounce it
back to random members of the list.  ;)

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Re: OT : auto reply

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, January 04, 2000, 2:46:25 AM, NamNH wrote:
> I want to have auto reply for vacation.

No, you don't.  :P

> Anyone know a service that allow me to send auto message
> during days off ?

Yes, just don't do it.  People who are on mailing lists that you're on and
forget to set to vacation will thank you... immensely.  :)

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Re: Message ID header: set by the Bat?

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, December 28, 1999, 6:14:39 PM, Sashka wrote:
> IMHO, Bat doesn't generate them,

TB! does generate them.  From my last message on this topic:

Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> mail server adds them to headers.

This *can* happen if a message doesn't have a MSGID.

> And this only way it will be only one e-mail or article with same number.

This is false.  MSGIDs are generally a mixture of random, incremental and
static data.  If we take the first 4 digits in [EMAIL PROTECTED] as
random here is how it breaks down.

2735 - Random number.  I don't think it is purely random, but there it is.

991228 - Today's date.

rpglink.com - The host "sending" the message.

For a duplicate MSGID to be generated it would have to be from this host,
on this day, with the same first 4 digits.  That, alone, is a virtual
impossibility.

Now, the mail servers do basically the same thing.  They will use a mix of
constant and dynamic data to guarentee that the chance of a duplicate is
virtually impossible to come up with.  Having the server attach a MSGID to a
message does not make it any more or less likely of a duplicate.  In fact, all
it does is prevent you from doing a search on the MSGID of your own messages
since they are not a part of your sent-mail.


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Re: bat creates many bat*.tmp files size 0

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, December 28, 1999, 5:16:29 PM, tracer wrote:
> I use a little program called ZAP to do it as it allows many more
> things one can do at the same time like cleaning all files of certain
> extensions  etc etc.

You mean like...

   rm *.(bat|sys|com)

:)

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Re: Message ID header: set by the Bat?

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, December 28, 1999, 5:35:10 PM, Tony wrote:
> For example:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

> Does the Bat! generate this field? And, most importantly, how are the
> first four digits generated?

Yes.  This is, IMHO, how it should be since it is quite hard to search
your archives for a MSGID that doesn't exist.  As for the first four digits my
guess would be the random or maybe something to do with time.

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Re: bat creates many bat*.tmp files size 0

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, December 28, 1999, 12:25:57 PM, Alexander wrote:
>> > @echo off
>> > pushd %1
>> > del /q *.*
>> > for /f "Tokens=*" %%i in ('dir /b') do rd /s /q "%%i"
>> > popd
>> > :end

>> rm -rf temp/*

> Actually, it's the best comparison of Linux vs. NT I've *ever*
> seen! Thanks, Steve:-)) Linux definitely rulezz!

To be honest, though, they way described above is more of a shell script.
Why a person would do it that way, I have no idea.  But the comparative shell
script in sh, csh or zsh would be about the same.  For me to do it in perl
would be about the same as well.  Python, prolly the same.

All it shows is that people can make the mistake of overlooking the easy
answer when going script happy.  :)

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Re: bat creates many bat*.tmp files size 0

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, December 28, 1999, 12:25:57 PM, Alexander wrote:
> Actually, it's the best comparison of Linux vs. NT I've *ever*
> seen! Thanks, Steve:-)) Linux definitely rulezz!

Eh, just compile the GNU file tools for NT, same difference.  ;)


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Re: bat creates many bat*.tmp files size 0

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, December 28, 1999, 11:55:15 AM, Chuck wrote:
JT>>> deltree /y c:\windows\temp > nul
JT>>> md c:\windows\temp

>> Better way is
>> deltree /y c:\windows\temp\*.*>nul
> If  any  of  you are using NT the following batch file will delete all
> temp files and directories in temp:

> @echo off
> pushd %1
> del /q *.*
> for /f "Tokens=*" %%i in ('dir /b') do rd /s /q "%%i"
> popd
> :end

rm -rf temp/*

:)

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Re: Merry Christmas!

[Steve Lamb]

Monday, December 27, 1999, 12:40:59 PM, Rob wrote:
>> *We* do not feel the need to celebrate or believe in anything,

> not even the coming of Spring ?!   ;-)   i can't wait ...

Feh, I'm in SoCal where on a bad day it still gets up to 70 degrees.
Worst part is everyone around me doesn't see anything wrong with that.

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Re: I`m getting annoyed...

[Steve Lamb]

Monday, December 27, 1999, 9:56:45 AM, tracer wrote:
> Same with having that silly onboard video using system ram.

Funny thing is take a look at what AGP boards use for their frame buffer.
;)


> In my own case the main reason I had a lot of ram was internet, to
> make use of the lousy and expensive capcity I had, I went for enough
> ram to be able to run double/tripple ftps up and down, have a news
> reader running and my mail and if required a mpeg movie for my son.

Gah, all of that is what, 16Mb?  Oh, wait, sorry, thinking Linux again.

SLRN, newsreader, ~2Mb.
lftp, ftp client, ~1.5Mb (can do multiple connections)
MP3 in X, 12Mb.

> Mainly price as it was very difficult to sell extra ram at prices it
> was a few years ago. Enough ram could double the pc price.

Yeah, years ago.  I was still in that mindset until I got my C400a so I
could keep up with the games.  64Mb of RAM w/tax and S&H cost me a whopping
$89.  That is when RAM prices were (are?) supposed to be "high".

> 98 needs about 64 MINIMUM to run and from what I heard about windows
> 2000 it needs at least 256. Also in my experience, the faster the machine
> the more ram you need to get rid of that hard disk bottle neck Steve
> mentoned.

If that is the case it is completely unacceptable.  Jeez, I can get Linux
to boot and run doing much more work than Windows in under 2Mb w/o touching
swap.

Hell, the most useful computing device I bought recently for real *work*
was my Palm IIIe with a whopping 2Mb.

What is MS' problem?

> I had a small scsi drive (one of those fast ones) just for swapping...

 total   used   free sharedbuffers cached
Mem: 63348  60396   2952  19828  21664  18840
-/+ buffers/cache:  19892  43456
Swap:   132072   3100 128972

I just avoid the problem.  I think the 3.1Mb of swap is from the PMMail
list I host hammering my system.  If I limited exim to 25 copies instead of 50
I'd not touch swap at all.

> you couldnt get the proper ram?? (g)

That was the proper RAM.  The AWE32 had two SIMM slots for an expanded
memory buffer for synth sound files.

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Re: I`m getting annoyed...

[Steve Lamb]

Monday, December 27, 1999, 8:45:59 AM, Syafril wrote:
> Question  :  Mail Client is Compute Bound or I/O bound from your point
> of view ?

Neither.  Mind you I ran a Fido BBS when I was 16 on a 386sx-16, 2Mb RAM
and a 40MBb IDE drive.  Nothing like tossing a few thousand messages a day
from Fido, a few thousand a day from usenet and handling the email for a few
hundred users.  I seriously doubt anyone in here can top the requirements of a
BBS in the high time of BBSing.  That machine wasn't eithe IO or CPU bound so
neither is anyone's machine when it comes to email.

CPU/IO bound is someone trying to keep up a full newsfeed with
cross-propagation the end result of which is a single machine processing news
that fills a full T1 24/7.  Only then (or more extreme cases) will I consider
something bound by CPU/IO or other such factors.

-- Steve, smacking his gums and wishing the whipper-snappers would all go
away.

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Re: I`m getting annoyed...

[Steve Lamb]

Monday, December 27, 1999, 4:38:35 AM, Ali wrote:
> stable than before and this is most likely because the machines today
> come with at least 32MB of memory. In fact 64MB seems to be the
> standard. On top of that win98 is inherently more stable than it's
> predecessors.

Ever wonder why the prebuilts put so little RAM in their computers?
Because when the computers hit swap, they slow down.  The normal end consumer
sees the machine slow and pulls out the tired car analogy.  "Well, if the CPU
is the engine, if I want to go faster I need to get a faster engine.  I need a
faster CPU!"  At which time they dutifully trade in their PII-300 w/24Mb RAM
(I've seen it!) for a spiffy new PIII-600 with. 32Mb RAM!  In about a year
they repeat the process.

Personally my work and home workstations both have 128Mb of RAM.  Swap?
What's that?  One is NT, one is 98.  My Linux server has 64Mb in it and it
only touches swap every once and a while.

Want to know a secret?

My Linux box could take up to 128Mb and its MB is years old.  It has a
P5-100 in it that I bought before the PIIs came out.  My workstation, a
Celeron-400a, has a MB that can accommodate 768Mb.

The single cheapest and easiest way to speed up a machine is to put more
RAM into it.  MBs these days can take up .7-1Gb of RAM.  So why is 32Mb-64Mb
"standard"?  ;)

> To minimize fragmenting in the system partition, in my last win98 days, I
> had moved all temp files and confined V Swapping to one partition and then
> defragged that partition regularly. This and 64MB of RAM at the time reduced
> crashes to a bearable minimum. :)

Try 128Mb and no swapping.  I have crashed from other areas, but that is
most likely from my sound card being an original AWE-32 with two 256kb SIMMs
that I bought new just for that card.  ;)

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Re: I`m getting annoyed...

[Steve Lamb]

Sunday, December 26, 1999, 11:48:42 PM, Syafril wrote:
>>From the fact above, you can see

You forgot #4.

#4: Since HD speeds are measured in ms and RAM in ns HDs are a magnitude
slower than RAM.  Therefore hitting swap is *bad*.  With RAM hovering around
$1.25/Meg it is better to get more RAM and stay within it than to "tweak" HD
and live with swap.

> Can you see the relation now ?

Nope.

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Re: Regarding the RFCs

[Steve Lamb]

Saturday, December 25, 1999, 5:41:15 PM, Frank wrote:
> FYI, here's what long lines look line when you respond to them in another
> mailer.

Yup, wrong.  When quoting it should not automatically rewrap.

> It's really the *display* issue in The Bat. No one is forced to re-wrap ...
> only users of The Bat need to re-wrap.

TB! users, mutt users, pine users, PMMail users, etc, etc, etc..

NOW CUT IT OUT, DAMMIT!!

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Re: Merry Christmas!

[Steve Lamb]

Saturday, December 25, 1999, 4:39:56 PM, Mark wrote:
>  in  the  spirit of your Christian/Pagan/Moslem celebrations I will go
>  away and dance around the nearest tree:-)

T'hell with that.

GIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGIMMEGIMME

*Cough*  :)

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Re: Regarding the RFCs

[Steve Lamb]

Saturday, December 25, 1999, 3:49:26 PM, Frank wrote:
> Wrapping lines is *one* convention and not the only one.  I used to do that, but I 
>found that many messages got messed up when people copied and pasted my words.  
>Really, for almost 20 years I did
> what you describe.  I've come around to thinking that the paragraph separator is 
>good for *text* (and people seem to have fewer copy/paste problems, too, ... 
>something to think about with these
> long lines).  Natually, if I'm sending a snippet of code to some one I'll send it as 
>is (usually, margins are less then 80 columns).  The only time the very-long-lines 
>convention is a problem is
> during *display* ... which is why one of my original points claimed this was a 
>*display* issue for The Bat, not an RFC issue.  Alexander is the one who started the 
>claim that this was all an RFC
> issue ... I just think it's a display preference ... and I hope The Bat will include 
>this type of preference in future releases.

> Both conventions are useful.  I happen to use very-long-lines for text, and properly 
>wrapped lines for code.

No, they are not since, as this message should show, long lines are quoted
as is, not wrapped, as they should be.  It means by using long lines in text
you are forcing the people to rewrap everything every time.  That is
considered rude.

DO
NOT
DO
IT!


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Re: Regarding the RFCs

[Steve Lamb]

Saturday, December 25, 1999, 3:17:58 PM, Frank wrote:
> So RFC 822 makes no restrictions on the lengths of text lines in the *body*
> of an E-mail message. RFC 822 *does* make restrictions on the length of
> lines in E-mail *headers*, but that is not the issue we're discussing.

Gah, wrap your lines, just don't argue about it.  Geez.  I can't believe
you're trying to defend Eudora, breaker of RFCs extraordinaire.

> RFC 822 makes no restrictions like you describe above. Lines of a *message
> body* can be arbitrarily long according to RFC 822. Can you point me to such
> restrictions in RFC 822?

> Over to you ...

Fine, RFC821, Page 43, section 4.5.3.


text line

   The maximum total length of a text line including the
is 1000 characters (but not counting the leading
   dot duplicated for transparency).


Common convention is to wrap your lines, just do it.  Jeez.

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Re: Replies Showing as Numbers ?

[Steve Lamb]

On Sat, Dec 25, 1999 at 09:06:33PM +0300, Andrew K. Lovetski wrote:
> I have a question: is this a part of Netiqette? Are there any reasons
> for disabling this (wonderful, IMVHO :) feature except for that you
> don't like it (I don't know why?!)?
   
Because TB! is the only client that I know of that does it.  Besides, what
real use does it have?  Who cares how many replies there are in a thread
especially since threads will most likely have multiple branches?

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The Bat! - suggestions

[Steve Lamb]

Hello The Bat! developers,

  There are some features I would like to see in your program:

There is a global purge and delete.  Would be nice to have a global purge
duplicates as well for those of us (ahem) who have to merge an older message
base with a newer one.

Regards,
  Steve Lamb

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Opera Beta for Linux released...

[Steve Lamb]

Slashdot article:
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/12/24/0111239&mode=thread

Don't know how many Linux people we have on these lists but I think it is
something for both BWS and Ritlabs to follow closely.  Opera, to me,
represents the first time that a smaller ISV has ported their product over to
Linux.  Opera shares a lot of common denominators with both PMMail and TB!
which make it an ideal test of the Linux' community reaction to a quality,
small commercial venture.

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Re: Merry Christmas!

[Steve Lamb]

>> CJT>>> I'd  like to wish you all, a very merry Christmas and a happy New
>> CJT>>> Year 2000 -- the last year in this century. :-)

Wow...  Someone got it right.

-- Steve, still dismayed at the array of people who are calling this new year
the end of the millennium and the end of the century when it is the *next*
one that ends it.  *sigh*


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Re: Multiple problems with "the bat"

[Steve Lamb]

Thursday, December 23, 1999, 12:28:35 PM, Nick wrote:
> Since we've come to know you're very opinionated in your preferences (I'm
> saying that in a nice way :-))

Awww, just admit it, I'm a crusty ol' email curmudgeon.  :)

> I was wondering what exactly you have against a preview pane? For the way I
> read email (hunt and peck) it's works perfectly. Is it something you never
> use, or just find TB!'s implementation of lacking?

I don't use them in general.  I find that the space that it takes up on
the display causes problems with me elsewhere as everything doesn't line up
quite right.  Currently with TB! I have the folder view to the left go all the
way down the length of the window.  The right has the message index which also
goes all the way down the window.  If I have the preview pane enabled it
either shortens the folder view, forcing me to scroll much more than I already
have to (2 accounts, 300+ email a day in each means lots and lots of filters
and folders to keep it all legible).  If I have it only fit in the message
index area it isn't wide enough to read proper (ahem, aka fixed width <78
character) messages.  It also cuts down on the view of the message index and,
again, forces a lot of scrolling.

Also, it means that messages are automatically opened.  I don't like the
program doing something unless I explicitly ask it to.  TB! is quite bad that
when I delete up/delete down at the beginning/end of a folder it will auto
open the next message that comes into view instead of close.  This can be a
pain when you have a message that you want to keep unread so looking at the
index will alert you to something in that folder that needs attention, or you
have message in your folder that have large (2Mb+) attachments.  I don't want
to have to open that message (and take the 1-2 minute hit) just to delete it.

I feel that the interface is inconsistent when the reading is in a
"preview pane" format and editing is in a separate window.

Finally, I work on multiple desktops.  At home and work I have Powerbar
(great utility, BTW) providing me with 6 virtual desktops.  At any time I
might want to compose or read a particular message on another desktop in
conjunction with another task.  For example, desktop 3 is always where my
"floating" remote terminals reside.  When I am doing service requests at work
I will open my SR folder, move it to desktop 3, switch to desktop 3, and work
on the SR with the read window on one side and the SSH terminal on the other.
Since I am doing work like that an MDI interface in an email client
automatically disqualifies that client.  Pegasus, Eudora, Outlook, Netscape,
all are out of the running because of it.  The preview pane is something like
that MDI interface, it just doesn't work how I work.

> As I'm always open for useful suggestions I was thinking perhaps your method
> of reading and responding to email might be more efficient or easier than
> how I currently do mine.

Actually, how email is read is a matter of personal preference.  I feel
comfortable with a text client.  In fact, if you watch my headers there will
be times I post from mutt on my Linux box.  I normally do that from home
accessing my Linux box through a WYSE VT100 serial terminal running at
19200bps.  80x25, B&W display and I do feel that mutt is a very good client
that is only poor in some areas even with that small of a display.  Maybe that
is the best explanation on why I don't like the preview pane.  Wait, I already
said it, I'm a crusty ol' email curmudgeon.  ;)

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Re: privacy

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, December 22, 1999, 2:11:53 PM, Oliver wrote:
SL>> He uses an outgoing filter to call an external script which modifies the
SL>> headers.

> Now that's what I call a mailer feature :-)

*shrug*  PMMail2000 & PMMail/2 have been doing it for years with Rexx
calls.  I prefer using Perl myself, never having really gotten into Rexx but
learning Perl, for me, has been like falling off a log.  I just let it come
naturally.  ;)

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Re: privacy

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, December 22, 1999, 1:22:46 PM, Ali wrote:
> Would you be so kind as to expand on your knowledge on this?

He uses an outgoing filter to call an external script which modifies the
headers.


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Re: privacy

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, December 22, 1999, 9:15:27 AM, Thomas wrote:
> I did visit www.m-w.com for "echelon", but still don't get your
> meaning. You want to go left and right of the other guys? Or of
> yourself? -- ?

From another message I sent out on another list, pardon the tone, it was
in a heated and quite idiotic debate...

"You want to get worked up, go read up on Echelon sometime. For those who
don't know what it is Echelon is a multi-national system to spy on each other
citizenry. It tracks satellite as well as land communications. The Australians
have confirmed that it exists and the US Congress has gotten refusals to
divulge information from, IIRC, the CIA which means it is confirmed that the
US was involved as well."

> Yes. But I don't see your point. You don't want your identity known
> *across* mailing lists? Am I naive?

I can speak here about one topic and also speak on another list about
another highly volatile topic.  Maybe I want my identity on that list to
remain semi-anonymous so it isn't obvious to people who is sending it for
whatever reason.  The serial defeats that.

The point isn't what one wants to do with it, the point is it should be
possible so people can do what they want with it.

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Re: privacy

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, December 22, 1999, 8:41:07 AM, Thomas wrote:
> If you send emails to people from different accounts, yes. How likely
> is that? And if you send to someone from two of your accounts, don't
> you want them to know that you are the same one-and-only?

This isn't a matter of sending mail to the same user, it is a matter of
traces left that can identify a user easily.  Echelon, my man, Echelon.

> Another thing is the serial number of the Pentium-III. This can be
> checked while you're web browsing (I was told), and that *is* an
> invasion of privacy. Actually a reason for me not to stick with Intel.

Exactly.  This is about on par with that since anywhere your mail may be
archived, from any address, will have that same number.  You *are* aware that
most mailing lists have web searchable archives, right?  ;)

> I see it this way: when I send an email to someone, I want him to know
> who I am anyway.

[snippa]

> I don't have a scenario in my way of life that would require me to hide my
> identity when sending a mail to someone. To the contrary.

That is *you*.  *You* are not the totality of humanity.  How about a
political person in China, for example?


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Re: privacy

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, December 22, 1999, 8:12:54 AM, Thomas wrote:
> The serial number of your email client is? What about your email
> address? Should that be suppressed too? ;-)

Ah, but we can have multiple accounts on TB!.  Just because my personal
account is [EMAIL PROTECTED], and I don't mind people knowing that and my
corporate account is [EMAIL PROTECTED], which again I don't mind
people knowing, doesn't mean that I want traces in, say,
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
etc, etc, etc...

Are those addresses real or fictional?  Are they me or not?  The serial
removes all doubt of at least which machine it came from, doesn't it?

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Re: Fonts Available with Editor ??

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, December 22, 1999, 7:40:25 AM, Oliver wrote:
> When using variable-width fonts in The Bat! becomes possible, half the
> messages on this list will be unreadable, IMHO.

The other half, of course, will be coming from me.  As we all know, they
are practically unreadable as it is.  At least then it will be a clean sweep.
 ;)

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Re: Multiple problems with "the bat"

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, December 22, 1999, 4:49:47 AM, tracer wrote:
> He said he took all of one hour to try and use the bat...

That doesn't describe how long he took looking for any particular item
before giving up.  Personally nearly everything on his list I found and
configured to my liking (or at least remembered where it was) in about 5
minutes.  Of course I've made it a habit of going through the configuration
items of new software one by one to familiarize myself with the product as the
very first thing I do.  I mean, literally reading each menu, entering each
submenu, hitting each tab at least once, expanding all trees, etc.

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Re: Multiple problems with "the bat"

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, December 21, 1999, 10:20:10 PM, Frank wrote:
> -MM-DD HH:MM:SS

> Why don't they appear that way in the received/created columns?

Because TB! doesn't use the Windows settings.

> For today's messages, why don't they have today's date?

Because it is a given that if a message doesn't have a date stamp it was
received today.

> How do I edit the "new message template"? ... there isn't any information in
> the Help file. Try searching for "edit".

There are several different levels.  I believe Thomas explained it nicely.

> How do I turn of the feature that marks my messages as "read" if I leave the
> cursor on the message list for more than one second? (I actually didn't read
> the message, I was just scrolling for incoming messages.)

Either turn off the preview pain(-in-the-ass) or Account Properties /
Options / Time of reading to mark message as read

> The "received" time is wrong, it should be the time my POP server receives
> the E-mail, not the time of the download from POP.

Uh, no.  You haven't received it yet, have you.  It is when your machine
receives the message.  Until then it isn't received, but pending.

> How do I look at all the headers? There is no way to do this, according to
> the Help.

CNTL-SHIFT-K

> How do I turn off the animation of the bat in the task bar?

Options / Icon Animation

> When I move the cursor in down a line:

>V
> line 1: xxx sssPssxxx
> @  !
> line 3: xxx sssQssxxx
>^

> The cursor is at P and I hit down-arrow to line 2 (which has no characters,
> just a newline) and the cursor should be at "@", but is actually at "!". In
> other words, the cursor motion doesn't work like all other text fields in
> Windows products.

That is a good thing since you can do things  this
  funlike  easily.

> Attachments of duplicate names get created as "abcdef.ext" ==>
> "abcdef.ext.1". This causes Win9x *not* to recognize the file type and I
> have to manually rename my attachments.

Tell the people sending them to think up new names for their end.

> I can't turn off sending my initials in replies, i.e., "FF> " should be "> "
> ... I've set "none" in the Reply dialog, but this doesn't work.

Works fine here.

> When I copy an past text from another document, say a paragraph from
> MS-Word, I want to have the text automatically wrapped *for display* (not
> actually wrapped with embedded newlines) ... how do I set this? Autowrapping
> doesn't work ... and I don't want to manually wrap the lines because I want
> to E-mail receiver to have the same paragraph breaks.

No, you want to wrap for 73-78 characters.  That is the common practice of
the internet and email for well over a decade now.  Having only paragraph
breaks causes no end of problems.  It renders your message unreadable to
people on text terminals (I initially read this message on a WYSE VT100
terminal, 80x25 display), quoting is all screwed up (I've had to reflow each
paragraph of yours so far to make it compliant), there are length limits in
the various RFCs which can prevent your message from being delivered if they
are ignored, etc, etc, etc...

Short answer, DO NOT USE LONG LINES!!!

> Why doesn't CTRL-R reply for messages, like Eudora? How do I customize this?

Because Eudora isn't the end all, be all of clients.  Personally, why
isn't it *r* like mutt, pine, elm, etc. :P

> Wrapping is according to the "right margin value", but where is this set? It
> is not in the help?

Options / Editor preferences.

> Overall, there is only one feature of "the bat" that is significantly better
> than Eudora light: automatic recognition of embedded UUENCODED files.

*chuckle*  You forgot to mention real separation of multiple accounts,
IMAP support, no lousy MDI interface, actual compliance with standards instead
of a flippant disregard for them, templates, quick templates, etc.

> Otherwise, there are too many problems (unless you all have fixes to the
> above list ... all discovered in an hour's worth of use ... what other bugs
> are waiting?).

To be honest, all of the items you listed are easily found with some quick
exploring of the program or aren't "problems" at all but a misunderstanding on
your part on how things are done.  I dunno about you, but about the only thing
I didn't discover on your list in 5 *minutes* of playing around was how to
turn off the Re(x): display.  I'd suggest doing the right thing and looking
through all the configuration dialogs one at a time.  It really is the best
way to learn what a program can do and where all the configuration is.

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Re: Multiple problems with "the bat"

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, December 21, 1999, 10:43:47 PM, Thomas wrote:
> Two possiblities:
> 1.) On an account level: Account/Properties.../Templates/New Message.
> 2.) On a folder level: Folder/Properties/Template.

Three.  Recipient level at Addressbook / Recipient / Properties.

FF>> How do I turn off the animation of the bat in the task bar?

> You can't. It means you have unread mail.

Options / Icon Animation.

> I don't understand "wrap for display" as opposed to "wrap".

He means the damnedable long lines.  :/

FF>> Why doesn't CTRL-R reply for messages, like Eudora? How do I
FF>> customize this?

> Try F5. You cannot customize this in this version.

CNTL-F5.

FF>> Wrapping is according to the "right margin value", but where is
FF>> this set? It is not in the help?

> - I saw this somewhere, but cannot find it at the moment.

Options / Editor Preferences

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Re: SOT: Windows language versions (was: Re[2]: RegExp)

[Steve Lamb]

Monday, December 20, 1999, 2:59:17 AM, Thomas wrote:
> If you have a programme that will partition my hard disk without
> reformat, please let me know. I would even make an extra partition for
> Linux. :-)

Partition Magic.

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The Bat! - bug report

[Steve Lamb]

Hello The Bat! developers,

  I'm using The Bat! Version 1.38
  under Windows NT 4.0 Build 1381 Service Pack 5
  and would like to report a bug

  The bug description:
PGP with multiple accounts is lacking

  Steps to reproduce the bug:
Create two accounts with two separate keys.  Send mail from one account
and sign it.  After signing, send mail from the other account and sign it.
TB! will use the first account's key without question.

Each account should have its own PGP key settings for people who have both
a personal and professional key as well as the many other multiple roles
people can have accounts for (postmaster, for example).


Regards,
  Steve Lamb

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Re: OT: Curses

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, December 15, 1999, 9:43:34 AM, Nick wrote:
> Oooh, word games!!! He has sh*t for brains!

> Can I take the trip to Cancun??

Sure.  Nick wins a no express trip to Cancun!  He'll enjoy whatever class
of flight he books for himself and accommodations in whatever hotel he
decides to cough up the cash to.  He'll enjoy as many nights and days he can
afford.  Congratulations Nick!


Hope this completes the point that context, not words, are profane.


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Re: OT: Curses

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, December 14, 1999, 3:19:28 PM, Leif wrote:
> 
> Because the subscriber base of TBUDL and TBBETA is so diverse
> demographically, I made it a rule when I started these two UDLs that
> profanity is not allowed.

[snippage]

> 


There is no such thing as profane speech, only profane context.  I
guarantee that any unacceptable "word" that people come up with I pretty much
can say in a context where it isn't profane.  Conversely, I can take words
which are, in and of themselves, "completely innocent" and throw insults out
that are worse than anything that anyone could do with "bad" words.

Please, don't perpetuate this fallacy that words, in and of themselves,
somehow are "good" or "bad".

ObExample: There never has existed such a cesspool as the one that exists
between his ears.

Anyone care to translate that into what I'm saying?  It is a sentence of 5
words.




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Re: OT Was Re[3]: Deleting threads with Trash button

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, December 14, 1999, 2:46:22 AM, Oleg wrote:
C>> assignable finctions to all (FIVE!!!). I have assigned DEL to one of
C>> them. What a breeze. Hardly touch the keyboard any longer.

> This tendency will end up with a keyboard on a ball.

Might as well get one of those keyboards with a trackball built in and
turn it upside down.  ;)

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Re: SOT Linux port?

[Steve Lamb]

Saturday, December 11, 1999, 1:15:26 PM, Douglas wrote:
> As Linux becomes more of a finished product, the costs associated with it
> seem to be rising commensurately.

My costs for my Linux server have remained the same for the past 2-3
years.  Power.  I have to pay for the power it consumes.  Now, if that cost is
rising, well, that is a fact of basic inflation.

> And while windows was garbage from the start (I began with OS/2, myself), by
> throwing enough money at it I'm told that NT at least has improved a lot.

No, NT has *NOT* "improved" a lot at all.  It is more of the same.  The
improvement is only in the mind of Redmond spin doctors.

> Will Linux get beyond being a server OS and compete with Windoze at the user
> level? (The Linux camp itself is split) and,

Maybe it will, maybe it won't.  The Linux camp, however, is not split.
They are doing what they have always done, worked on the OS to what they like.

> 2).- If Languages like MetaWare High C/C++/ EC++ PwrPC Toolset Linux
> and various versions of Fortran, as well as Cross Assemblers/Compilers
> like METROWERKS CodeWarrior for Red Hat Linux GNU Edition and Graphics
> Motif for Linux and all available, will the Delphi compiler make that
> much of a difference? Or is the statement founded in TB's have been
> programmed in Delphi?

Delphi is the language a LOT of applications on Windows are developed on.
If I had to place things like "speed of development" and "power" into a scale
VB has the least power but it appears to be able to allow people to make
applications fast.  Delphi has a lot more power but doesn't sacrifice the
speed (and no VBRUN.DLLs, dammit!).  The different C implementations give the
programmer a lot of power, but the speed of development drops off a bit.

Up there I see you mention about 4-5 different C compilers.  Delphi will
be entering the field against two Open Source Pascal projects.  I think that
will make a mark since it will give a familiar interface to the many Delphi
programmers out there.

Two programs I use extensively that I know are programmed in Delphi: The
Bat! and LeechFTP.

> One more thing, on a totally different track. Are there any good
> directories on the internet that provide data regarding the people
> behind the email address? Meaning, can you obtain more detailed data
> regarding the person using the email address, when that's all you
> have? Thanks in advance for the answers.

Geez, I hope not.  Personal privacy is being invaded left and right in
record numbers.  We don't need a central database for anyone to get into on
the 'net to make it even lower!

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Re: SOT Linux port?

[Steve Lamb]

Saturday, December 11, 1999, 12:54:50 PM, Paula wrote:
> But, are any of these Linux users willing to pay for an application?

There are three types of Linux users.  Which group are you referring to?

Group 1: Die hard free (speech) and free (beer) software advocates.

Most likely not.  They see supporting anything commercial in the slightest
as the work of Satan himself.


Group 2: Those that prefer Open Source software but will also pay for
commercial offerings if it fits their needs?

Chances are, yes.  I mean, I'm all for Open Source software, I think it
actually makes a lot of fiscal sense.  However, if there is a niche that Open
Source doesn't fit that commercial does, I have no problems paying for
software.  My list includes:

Games (Windows is on my main machine for games)
Quicken98 (Soon to be Quicken2000 with PocketQuicken on the Palm)
The Bat!
Opera

Of course, my list of open source or freeware applications is much larger.
That is because the quality on the free side is there and I am more than
willing to use it since it keeps me legal.


Group 3: Those who buy Red Hat or Corel Linux, then buy other applications,
then buy support, then buy...

IE, the typical Windows user who has been brainwashed into thinking
everything worthwhile on a computer has to be paid for.  I think that speaks
for itself.


Group 1 and Group 2 are about an equal size and there is potential there
for profit.  Especially when you consider the fact that there is no decent
email client on Unix at present.  I won't say they are powerful, since they
kick the crap out of TB! in that department.  However, TB! (and PMMail) pack a
lot of power into the interface, which is something the unix programmers have,
thus far, ignored.

Group 3...  Well, Group 3 is the one powering the Red Hat IPO and the
VALinux IPO.  Group 3, if Linux really takes hold, is the one that will grow
quite large.

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Re: Hi

[Steve Lamb]

Thursday, December 09, 1999, 2:17:16 PM, Alexander wrote:
> Sometimes.:-)) Hey, Steve, are you still here?

No.

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Re: SOT: E-mailaholics - was Re: Check out the Christmas Bat!

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, December 08, 1999, 7:34:51 PM, Leif wrote:
> Stay tuned.. We are working out the EM questionnaire and rating scale
> (to determine the severity of your case) as well as the EM creed.

I already know I am an emailaholic.  My signs...

1: Other people can't operate before their morning coffee.  I can't operate
before my morning email.

2: When getting up in the middle of the night to go pee I check email...

3: ...sometimes before doing the business I got up to do.

4: I've read RFC821...

5: ...and 822...

6: ...and have them partially memorized...

7: ...but want them completely memorized...

8: ...before moving on to the other email specs.

9: I sometimes call myself an email slut...

10: ...and I don't mean it in a bad way.  ;)

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Re: TBUDL@THEBAT.DUTAINT.COM is a private mailing list

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, December 08, 1999, 2:05:40 AM, DOLIST wrote:
> Choose a better mailing list server ! :)
> See my sign  !!!

Dolist: Windows only, commercial
Listar: Linux/Windows, free.

From the quick overview I've seen of dolist, Listar does it all, most
likely does it better.

http://www.listar.org

Nope, not affiliated with Listar development, just happen to run my lists
on it.  ;)


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Re: what's on the TB wishlist?

[Steve Lamb]

Sunday, December 05, 1999, 8:30:44 PM, tracer wrote:
Steve>> Yes, filtering calling an external scripting language.  :)
> Steve, I know we may end up breeding another horse (g) but could you
> please indicate in some more detail what you use and whats proven to
> work??
> With maybe an example??

I cannot give examples since none of my questions to RIT regarding what
path is used to call the script interpreter have been answered.  Since I use
TB! on two machines and need to call everything from a relative path I cannot
play with that feature until they do answer.

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TB! and Palm

[Steve Lamb]

Idle curiosity, anyone know if a conduit has been made between the Palm
and TB!?

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Re: what's on the TB wishlist?

[Steve Lamb]

Sunday, December 05, 1999, 3:04:32 AM, Jason wrote:
> Well yes, the filtering is like a simple scripting system. I'm thinking
> of something a little more controllable than that. Is there something
> else I'm not aware of?

Yes, filtering calling an external scripting language.  :)

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Re: what's on the TB wishlist?

[Steve Lamb]

Saturday, December 04, 1999, 9:13:20 PM, Jason wrote:
> One thing I'd specifically like to know is, will TB ever support any
> kind of simple scripting?

It already does.

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Re: Regular Expressions Tutorial

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, December 01, 1999, 10:09:22 PM, Paula wrote:
> Here's a little tutorial on regular expressions that a fellow did for
> Gravity users, if anyone is interested.

> http://www.naplesfl.net/~tbates/gravity/reg-100.html

Just wanted to point out that it is good for the general concepts but
since regexp syntax can vary from one implementation to the next other than
explaining the basic concept of regexp I doubt it would be of much use.

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Re: signature

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, December 01, 1999, 10:13:26 AM, Michal wrote:
> AFAIK, there should NOT be any space characters after "--"

Nope.  Technically speaking the sig delimiter is define as "dash dash
space newline" or "-- \n" in C/Perl notation.

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Re: signature

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, December 01, 1999, 9:01:56 AM, Martin wrote:
>   I read somewhere you could put '--' in front of your signature so
>   that if ppl would reply to your mail, the signature would not be
>   included in the message.

'-- ' Note the space.

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Re: Two questions

[Steve Lamb]

Here is my reply that bounced.  You'll see why...

- Snip -

Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:20:07 -0800
From: Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
X-Mailer: The Bat! (v1.36) S/N 3290604 / Personal
Reply-To: Steve Lamb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Organization: Earthlink Network
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Jason Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Two questions
In-reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Wednesday, December 01, 1999, 7:11:11 AM, Jason wrote:
> Yes, yes - before you say it, I know that whichever account I happen
> to be in (have highlighted) when I click the new message button is the
> account from which that message originates. But what I'm talking about
> is changing the from entry on replies and forwards.

I can do that here with 1.36.  See, this one should, in theory, be sent
from my corp account.  ;)

> You see, sometimes I have e-mail coming into an address, but it's not
> appropriate to respond to that e-mail from the address it came into.

Personally I just move it to the other account and reply from there.
*shrug*.  I really dislike the whole concept of personalities since it is a
cop-out by the programmers to get away from doing the right thing.  Besides,
as I said, I can change the from.

> So my options are to either cut-and-paste the e-mail into a new message to
> reply to it (which is a pain), or change the "from" user on the replied
> message, which should be able to be done but I can't figure out how.

Or drag-and-drop to the other account and reply from there.

> Can anyone help with this? If TB doesn't allow you to change the from
> on an e-mail message then that is a major design flaw (IMHO).

Minor, at best.  The only downside if this does come from my corp account
is that my sig didn't change.

 --
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
 ICQ: 5107343  | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-

- Snip -

 And the reply from TBUDL...

- Snip -

Received: from thebat.dutaint.com (ns2.dutaint.com [202.134.1.243]) by
peacock.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16475 for
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:23:37 -0800 (PST)
Received: from corp.earthlink.net by corp.earthlink.net with RAW (MDaemon.v3.0.0.0e.R)
for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Wed, 01 Dec 1999 22:20:19 +0700
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 22:20:19 +0700
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-MDSend-Notifications-To: [trash]
Subject: [EMAIL PROTECTED] is a private mailing list
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Actual-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
X-UIDL: 316dae2a0fa47be5823d34fe2b589c5d

[EMAIL PROTECTED] is not a moderator or member of this list. Only a moderator
or member may post to this list.

- Snip -

Yup, changes the From line just fine.  :)

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Re: imap folders

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, November 30, 1999, 3:25:55 PM, Jast wrote:
>   Looking around a little: Mulberry, a client that supports
>   exclusively IMAP and is supposed to be good at it. (Windows/Mac,
>   Shareware, ca. $40)

OK, after playing for a few minutes with it here are my thoughts.

Strikes against:

o MDI application

I cannot stand MDI applications except for Opera and Xircon.  If they
weren't MDI applications I'd be much happier.  However, mail is one of those
that MDI is a complete hindrance.  This is why the only clients I have used on
Windows is PMMail and TB!.


o Does not keep mail separated

It doesn't seem to keep separate accounts separated and, instead, decides
to go the cheap "identities" route.  Again, this is not acceptable and one of
the deciding reasons why TB! and PMMail have been the only mail applications
on Windows that I have used.  It seems to be such a simple concept but nearly
everyone gets it wrong.


o Crashed on configuration

Need I say more?  I got it to crash on just basic configuration.



Points for:

o IMAP implementation appears "correct"

Correct to me is not insisting on anything being local.  IMAP allows for
remote access of folders.  This means that such "local" folders as "drafts"
and "sent-mail" and the like should be allowed to be on the remote server.
This, of course, makes the assumption that we're connected to the server at
all times but then that is why it is an option, not a requirement.



I'd say that its IMAP implementation is about on par with Lookout!'s.  I'd
love to see something like that in TB! except with the separated accounts and
non-MDI application which TB! already has.

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Re: Two questions

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, November 30, 1999, 1:32:01 PM, Martin wrote:
> have remarked that it is quite unwise to discuss beta-stuff here.

I don't think it is unwise, just that when people ask "is this possible"
don't just say, "Yeah sure" when talking about the beta version.  ;)

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Re: imap folders

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, November 30, 1999, 1:23:00 PM, Alexander wrote:
> Not possible with the current version of the program. Is
> expected to be implemented in the next major release, though.
> Currently you're limited to using Mozilla, Outlook or Pegasus --- 
> AFAIK these are the only mailers currently available that fully 
> support IMAP4 rev.1.

And Eudora.  Not that the implementation of any of them is worth anything.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the implementation of TB!'s IMAP may be just
as bad considering noone has really gotten it right, yet.

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Re: Two questions

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, November 30, 1999, 1:24:43 PM, Ali wrote:
> Whenever you wish to send a recipient this special message then, in
> the editor window, you may insert the template at any point in your
> message by going to Utilities | Insert quick template | (then choose
> the appropriate template).

Or you just type the name of the quick template and then CNTL-Space.

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Re: Two questions

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, November 30, 1999, 12:55:40 PM, Jason wrote:
> Can this be done without using a template, though. I'd like to be able
> to do it on a per-e-mail basis without having to use a template. I
> wouldn't want the "special messages" going to everyone - just to those
> I specifically want to receive them.

Quick templates.

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Re: Two questions

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, November 30, 1999, 12:21:06 PM, Rob wrote:
> yep !! on account level and/or folder level in the message templates ...

Please be careful on what you say...

> using The Bat! 1.38 Beta/4 (reg)

As you're not using the latest release things are subject to change and a
lot of people may not be using the beta software preferring to wait for an
official release.

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Re: Two questions

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, November 30, 1999, 11:53:58 AM, Martin wrote:
>   1) Is it possible in The Bat! to use multiple line cookies?

Yes, \n in the cookie will split the line.

>   2) Is it possible to set a different language (for the spell
>   checker) for each address or folder?

Not at present.

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Re: Moved The Bat!

[Steve Lamb]

Friday, November 26, 1999, 7:56:58 PM, Andreas wrote:
> Problem is, that all the attachments I have ever received are related to the old
> attachment path D:\Dfue\The Bat!\Attaches. This path information is stored
> in the mails. How can I change them to the new directory??

Just as aside, but another good example of why absolute paths are bad and
relative paths are good.  :)

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Re: Surprise...

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, November 24, 1999, 5:11:44 PM, Alexander wrote:
> BTW, what does this "curmudgeon" mean after all?:-)) I'm
> afraid it's not in my PC-based dictionary, and being as lazy as 
> you I don't want to search for it on the bookshelves:-))

From .

Main Entry: cur·mud·geon
Pronunciation: (")k&r-'m&-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1577
1 archaic : MISER
2 : a crusty, ill-tempered, and usually old man
- cur·mud·geon·li·ness /-lE-n&s/ noun
- cur·mud·geon·ly /-lE/ adjective

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Re: Surprise...

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, November 24, 1999, 3:19:43 PM, Ali wrote:
>   Those hilarious responses to Thomas, Paula and now this???

Hey, just because I'm a self-proclaimed curmudgeon doesn't mean I don't
have a sense of humor.  :P

> I dislike autocompletion. My experience with it has been uniformly
> poor. It's a nightmare of assumptions!! I'm amazed that you actually
> use it. :) IE is horrible with it as well. It just gets in my way.
> Anyway, I use Opera mostly now so

Well, not entirely.  I am lazy, all power users of computers are.  What
makes the CLI bearable is the tab-completion.  Autocompletion is basically the
same thing, it just does it real time.  Annoying, yeah, but not as much as it
is useful when the data it is drawing from is good.  Having names matched with
the wrong address and completing strings which represent several addresses,
however, represents bad data.

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Re: Surprise...

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, November 24, 1999, 3:02:32 AM, Ali wrote:
>   That's a good one Steve. If I was one who liked using autocomplete,
>   I would've picked it up already. :)

*bow*

Actually, TB!'s autocompletion needs some work.  For example, when I send
certain mail out to different lists.  One such is "websystems@corp;
websupport@corp".  Two separate addresses.Yet TB! will complete the whole
string if I start with websystems.  *BAD*  Completing two or more addresses
from the contents of one causes problems.


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Re: (No Subject)

[Steve Lamb]

Wednesday, November 24, 1999, 12:45:18 AM, Paula wrote:
> Hello All,

TBUDL says in unison, hundreds of voices ringing out, "Hi!"  Paula shifts
nervously behind the podium, glancing to the moderator to her left, smiling
nervously before continuing.  "Uhm, uh, my name is Paula Ford, and I'm an
emailaholic."  TBUDL gives her a round of applause at her admission.

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Re: Surprise...

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, November 23, 1999, 11:58:28 PM, Thomas wrote:
IG>> I've been bitten by that one too! On the other hand I like
IG>> autocompletion. Any suggestions (other than "be more careful")?

> How about: "check before you hit 'send'"? :-P

Well, that would constitute "be more careful", now wouldn't it?

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Re: Surprise...

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, November 23, 1999, 11:50:14 PM, Ian wrote:
> I've been bitten by that one too! On the other hand I like
> autocompletion. Any suggestions (other than "be more careful")?

Not have TB! combine the user name with the address of the list.  It is
the only client I have ever seen do that, is completely non-standard, does
break the intent of the TO field and introduces bad data into the
autocompletion database.  In short, there are several valid technical reasons
to have it changed.


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Re: Shortcuts (was: Re: Threading)

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, November 23, 1999, 7:25:10 PM, Thomas wrote:
> I'd like to try "idiot mode". However, before I do that, kindly let me
> know how to disable "idiot mode" again. ;-)

Come now, figuring out how to exit it is the test to prove you're worthy
of disabling it in the first place.  ;)

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Surprise...

[Steve Lamb]

And the three letters were... ali.

Since TB! has autocompletion based on name it is, IMHO, very dangerously
and very incorrectly introducing false and misleading data into its own
database.  Clearly Ali Martin's address is not [EMAIL PROTECTED] yet
that is what my TB! completes to.

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Re: The TBUDL

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, November 23, 1999, 4:09:12 PM, Ali wrote:
> Again it's all a matter of consistency. Those who complain are used to
> the name and the address truly corresponding. They get confused when
> they see a name with a discussion list address which is not the true
> e-mail address of the person. I prefer the way TB does it also but yes
> indeed it's a toggle-able option at present. I remember the hot debate
> it caused some time ago but the fruit of it was that it became
> toggle-able.

Actually, there is a technical reason to abolish it.  After I send out
this message I will send another message by typing three letters and letting
TB! complete the address.  Let's see where it goes to.  ;)

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Re: question on line styles sening E-mail (Eureka!)

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, November 23, 1999, 2:59:46 PM, Ali wrote:
> it is more difficult than it should be, and one can't really do
> anything about bad formatting in that situation.

Sure.  Bitch to the person who sent it.

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Re: %cursor was: Re[2]: (No Subject)

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, November 23, 1999, 2:03:17 PM, Jast wrote:
>  I prefer template macros. They are more versatile (in regard to
>  usability - you never know what functionality you could add to a
>  macro) and don't take up window space if you don't use it. Really, I
>  don't like long option lists. Of course, macros should be well
>  documented...

Toggle macros are just like checkboxes.  On, off.  OTOH, they do take up
space[*] unless you tack them onto the end of a line somewhere and then you
can't see them.

[*] Put %singlere at the top with a CR to make it look decent, you'll note
that your messages use the CR.  ;)

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Re: Can't send mail - but receiving OK

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, November 23, 1999, 1:59:47 PM, Mogens wrote:
> The smptserver is spelled correctly, and I actually copied/pasted it to
> Becky from The Bat!

Did you completely delete it?  I mean total paranoia delete where you try
to delete spaces and stuff of that ilk.

Also check your TB! network settings since they are, uhm, unique to TB!.


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Re: Can't send mail - but receiving OK

[Steve Lamb]

Tuesday, November 23, 1999, 11:46:02 AM, Mogens wrote:
> My ISP's supreme tech supporter finally suggested to download Becky
> (buh!) and surprise, surprise - no problems.

> Any ideas?

Reenter the name of the SMTP server.

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Re: %cursor was: Re[2]: (No Subject)

[Steve Lamb]

Monday, November 22, 1999, 7:26:01 PM, Paula wrote:
> I would say that if the user has put a %SkipHeader macro in the
> template, then TB shouldn't worry about whether or not there is anything
> entered in the header, unless the intent is to allow the %SkipHeader
> only if the TO is filled in. I don't see the need for having to ensure
> that the TO is filled in.

Neither do I since the TO field doesn't need to be filled in for a valid
message.  ;)

> It would be nice to be able to start in the body.

That it would.  I like the idea of a template definition, just not sure if
I want to fully endorse another template macro which is nothing more than a
toggle that is better served, IMHO, by checkboxes on the templates.

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Re: %cursor was: Re[2]: (No Subject)

[Steve Lamb]

Monday, November 22, 1999, 6:47:19 PM, Thomas wrote:
> OK, so by default the cursor should always go into the header, even if
> there is data (TO/Subject/...) already. Unless there is a %SkipHeader
> macro. This defines the default as opposite to what I was thinking of,
> but I get your point.

Just want to reiterate for the general readership, not just for you.  The
point is that the behavior of the program should be consistent.  If in certain
cases it places the cursor somewhere it should place the cursor there in other
cases, even if the circumstances are slightly different, unless told to do
otherwise.  This is because even though data is in there it is not readily
apparent why the header entry was skipped this time, but not another.

> However, what if there is no To recipient but a %SkipHeader macro, should the 
>%SkipHeader
> macro be ignored? Or how to you suggest to deal with that situation?

No, if %skipheader is present, skip the header.  Consistency.

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Re: question on line styles sening E-mail (Eureka!)

[Steve Lamb]

Monday, November 22, 1999, 4:42:14 PM, Paula wrote:
> On Monday, November 22, 1999, Ali Martin wrote:

>> All, that I said earlier stands, in that, a badly formatted message will be
>> badly formatted when you get it and you can't really make it look any
>> better.

> Yes, no matter what, some messages always have stumps.

That is what the justification commands are for.  It can reformat quotes.
I use it quite liberally.

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Re: Threading

[Steve Lamb]

Monday, November 22, 1999, 12:11:31 PM, Ali wrote:
> *** BTW, the numeric pad numbers will not work with these shortcuts,
> (ie, Alt+1/2/3/4).

Of course not.  To enter high ASCII from the DOS days one would press alt
and use the numeric keypad to enter the ASCII number.  :)

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Re: Threading

[Steve Lamb]

Monday, November 22, 1999, 10:55:00 AM, Deryk wrote:
> Additionally, "control -" will collapse a single thread.
> Any idea what will collapse all threads?  It wasn't the obvious
> "control /" :-)

There isn't one listed in the keyboard shortcuts that Ali sent out
recently.

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