Re: [Texascavers] Firearms ed. & Caves

[Nico Escamilla]

Amen Jack!

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 12:59 AM, jack witz wrote:

>  *I just read thru all those comments.  Interesting.  Some good, some
> funny, some folks have been offended.  So I’ll just add my dry 2 cents and
> hope it’s constructive.*
>
> * *
>
> *My Firearms Safety Rules*
>
> *1 Treat every weapon as if it is loaded.*
>
> *2 Do not point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot/kill.*
>
> *3 Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to
> fire.*
>
> * *
>
> *I’ve toted a rifle (among other things) thru Iraq twice.  Frankly, it’s a
> b!tch.  However, a Marine is useless and dead w/out his rifle.  Rifles are
> our tools and naturally we may have some affection/superstitions for our
> tools.  Baseball players have lucky jockstraps, and after a firefight
> (trust me) you’ll bond w/ your rifle too.  Warriors use weapons as tools
> and hang them up when not called for.*
>
> * *
>
> *Humans built firearms to kill.  I understand and enjoy marksmanship as a
> fine sport, and so is fencing.  Centuries ago, you learned fencing b/c
> swords dominated.  Naturally, those skills came in handy to kill opponents
> on battlefields.  Call them collector’s items, family heirlooms,
> investments, etc. . Never forget the gun was made to kill.*
>
> * *
>
> *Violence, Force, and Killing are not the same thing.  Violence is
> emotional blind stupid and may lead to unnecessary death.  Force is
> appropriate gradual restrained application of strength.  Rules of
> Engagement operate under the concept of Force, and mine are 1 Verbal
> warning, 2 Warning shot, 3 Two to the body, One to the head.  Unfortunately,
> I think many people kill other people via violence.*
>
> * *
>
> *I own a few weapons.  I may have go get a CCL.  I may start keeping one
> under the car seat w/ a locking mechanism of some sort.  Will I ever use
> it?  Fat chance.  I think pistols in caves are impractical.  The nearest
> flat rock or fat tree branch will suffice.  If I encounter a rattle snake
> in a cave I’ll just turn around and leave it be.  It’ll probably only
> attack to defend its home.  Wouldn’t you?*
>
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

[Texascavers] Update on the rescue in Zongolica, Veracruz, Mexico.

[Fofo]

Howdy!

This is a note from Antonio Aguirre, president of Espeleo Rescate Mexico 
(ERM):


"The patient is a 23 year old male that fell into a 60 meter pit. He is 
alive. This information is from Proteccion Civil of Veracruz, but it has 
not been confirmed by ERM personnel. There are more rescuers moving to 
the zone"



 - Fofo

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[Texascavers] Firearms ed. & Caves

[jack witz]

I just read thru all those comments.  Interesting.  Some good, some funny, some 
folks have been offended.  So I’ll just add my dry 2 cents and hope it’s 
constructive.
 
My Firearms Safety Rules
1 Treat every weapon as if it is loaded.
2 Do not point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot/kill.
3 Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire.
 
I’ve toted a rifle (among other things) thru Iraq twice.  Frankly, it’s a 
b!tch.  However, a Marine is useless and dead w/out his rifle.  Rifles are our 
tools and naturally we may have some affection/superstitions for our tools.  
Baseball players have lucky jockstraps, and after a firefight (trust me) you’ll 
bond w/ your rifle too.  Warriors use weapons as tools and hang them up when 
not called for.
 
Humans built firearms to kill.  I understand and enjoy marksmanship as a fine 
sport, and so is fencing.  Centuries ago, you learned fencing b/c swords 
dominated.  Naturally, those skills came in handy to kill opponents on 
battlefields.  Call them collector’s items, family heirlooms, investments, etc. 
. Never forget the gun was made to kill.
 
Violence, Force, and Killing are not the same thing.  Violence is emotional 
blind stupid and may lead to unnecessary death.  Force is appropriate gradual 
restrained application of strength.  Rules of Engagement operate under the 
concept of Force, and mine are 1 Verbal warning, 2 Warning shot, 3 Two to the 
body, One to the head.  Unfortunately, I think many people kill other people 
via violence.
 
I own a few weapons.  I may have go get a CCL.  I may start keeping one under 
the car seat w/ a locking mechanism of some sort.  Will I ever use it?  Fat 
chance.  I think pistols in caves are impractical.  The nearest flat rock or 
fat tree branch will suffice.  If I encounter a rattle snake in a cave I’ll 
just turn around and leave it be.  It’ll probably only attack to defend its 
home.  Wouldn’t you?

__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[Texascavers] Yes

[Banditskel]

Amen brother I have been on this site for a few months. Just moved back to  
Texas and I thought this would be great. I'm now not so sure. I want to 
learn  from all of u not read all this stuff like yall r kids darn. I really 
don't  want to be uncomfortable about being a new caver. So please teach and 
stop the  preaching and bickering. 
 
Minnow

Re: [Texascavers] Re: Guns in National Parks, caves, and elsewhere:

[Brian Riordan]

"Have they no faith in their imaginary gods?" ... "...and it is up to us to
see to it that god’s work gets done!"

... Really?  Truly?  Are you still having trouble with the concept of not
blatantly insulting comrades around the "virtual campfire" here?  Are you so
angry that you just can't keep those kinds jabs, taunts and insults from
tainting what otherwise would be a fairly entertaining series of short
recollections.  The unabridged versions I'd be highly interested in hearing
at some point, BTW; that is if you could exercise enough civility to not
pause to interject a completely unrelated and unmitigated insult.  I'm weary
of this attitude- and I dislike responding to it, but I'd like to be part of
the caving community and part of this "virtual campfire".  I think there is
a lot of good in it.  This group likes to present itself as a diverse,
accepting group of thinkers, philosophers, scholars and adventurers brought
together by a love of caves and caving.  Your rant might support a theme of
adventure, but none of the rest.  I honestly think it greatly detracts from
this forum.

I realize you somehow take pride in the identity only the portmanteau of
"sleaze" and "weasel" can suggest, and that it really doesn't bode well to
any kind of progress here, but seriously man, I'm tired of it.  I enjoy
reading cavetex in my free time, and I don't want to think "maybe I
shouldn't open this thread today, because it's been a long day already, and
I'm probably gonna get pissed off about how people treat others on here".

Thats all, thanks for reading,

-B

PS.  Charles, I fully expect the burly etiquette enforcers of Cavetex to
issue sleazedick a stern admonition such as "Now Billl" or "C'mon
there guy".

[Texascavers] Cave accident in Mexico

[Antonio AA]

Today, at 1800 hrs, people from Proteccion Civil in Veacruz state, alert us 
about an accident. A child fall in a cave pit in Tepecuitlapa, a small town 
3hrs from Zongolica area. 7 cavers from ERM are in the way to the accident 
zone. We have no more info cuz there is no phone signal.
I´ll update as soon as we get it.

 

  
_
Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/

Re: [Texascavers] Mexican car papers

[Nico Escamilla]

Most places in Mexico dont take AmEx
Nico

On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 9:13 PM, Stefan Creaser wrote:

> Hi Pete,
>
> It >could< be because American Express charges higher fees to process
> transactions than other cards, which is why many other places do not
> take AE either.
>
> Cheers,
> Stefan
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Strickland [mailto:pstrickla...@austin.rr.com]
> Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 8:38 PM
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: [Texascavers] Mexican car papers
>
> For fifteen plus years an international credit card has been
> necessary to get car papers at the Mexican border. I had always heard
> that the accepted cards were Master Card, Visa, American Express, and
> Diner's Club. At the Columbia crossing about ten days ago, I tried my
> new American Express card. The woman behind the glass rejected the
> American Express card without even scanning it. She did take my Visa
> card, as I had called Visa beforehand and had them turn it on in
> Mexico for that time period. So the word is, at least at Columbia,
> "they don't take American Express". Pete
>
>
> --
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the
> information in any medium.  Thank you.
>
>
>
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> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
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>
>

Re: Re: [Texascavers] foremost caver

[Don Cooper]

In a parallel universe where foremost cavers are revered and idolized more
than foootball stars, I can imagine an advertising campaign that bleats:
"Foremost Cavers - such as Dr. Bill Stone, drink Foremost Milk!"

-WaV

On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 5:52 AM,  wrote:

>  And CoolCrest miniature golf was right across from the Foremost Creamery
> on Fred Road in San Antonio.
>
> T
>
>
> Feb 22, 2010 12:21:59 AM, wavyca...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I thought Foremost was pretty good milk.
>
> -WaV
>
> On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Mixon Bill wrote:
>
>> David, I actually followed one of your links. Nobody claimed the person
>> was _the_ state's "foremost caver." The article merely said he was _one of_
>> Alaska's foremost cavers. That could mean anything, especially considering
>> how many cavers there are in Alaska. I could come up with names of dozens of
>> Texas "foremost cavers." -- Mixon
>> 
>> All the world’s a stage, but the play is badly cast.
>>
>

RE: [Texascavers] Mexican car papers

[Stefan Creaser]

Hi Pete,

It >could< be because American Express charges higher fees to process
transactions than other cards, which is why many other places do not
take AE either.

Cheers,
Stefan

-Original Message-
From: Peter Strickland [mailto:pstrickla...@austin.rr.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 8:38 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Mexican car papers

For fifteen plus years an international credit card has been 
necessary to get car papers at the Mexican border. I had always heard 
that the accepted cards were Master Card, Visa, American Express, and 
Diner's Club. At the Columbia crossing about ten days ago, I tried my 
new American Express card. The woman behind the glass rejected the 
American Express card without even scanning it. She did take my Visa 
card, as I had called Visa beforehand and had them turn it on in 
Mexico for that time period. So the word is, at least at Columbia, 
"they don't take American Express". Pete


-- 
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, 
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any 
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any 
medium.  Thank you.



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[Texascavers] TSS work session

[Ron Ralph]

Cavers,

 

There will be a special work session Wednesday night, February 24, at the
usual place. We will be moving all TSS and TSA tables, tents and other
miscellaneous equipment downstairs to transport to the new trailer. We need
to do this in order to build out the trailer to handle our gear. Please come
and help with the move. Try to arrive before 6:00 pm or you might not be
able to get past the gate. Call if you need directions.

 

Sometime in the next two or so weeks, Jim Kennedy will be asking for
volunteers to help with trailer construction. This will be a good time to
become fully involved with supporting both the TSS and the TSA. Those
helping on Wednesday will have first choice on joining construction crews.

 

Ron

280-9648

 

Re: [Texascavers] Re: Guns in National Parks, caves, and elsewhere:

[Chris Vreeland]

I really, really hate being shot at. Thankfully, drunk people tend to  
miss. I also really hate being drawn down on by cops, but they're less  
likely to pull the trigger than drunks.


I survived my youth, and now in my dotage tend to not frequent places  
where shooting while drunk might commence, anymore.



bmorgan...@aol.com wrote:


I’ve been shot at a few times

[Texascavers] Mexican car papers

[Peter Strickland]

For fifteen plus years an international credit card has been 
necessary to get car papers at the Mexican border. I had always heard 
that the accepted cards were Master Card, Visa, American Express, and 
Diner's Club. At the Columbia crossing about ten days ago, I tried my 
new American Express card. The woman behind the glass rejected the 
American Express card without even scanning it. She did take my Visa 
card, as I had called Visa beforehand and had them turn it on in 
Mexico for that time period. So the word is, at least at Columbia, 
"they don't take American Express". Pete



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[PBSS] Fw: [Texascavers] And now for the really bad news

[Bill Bentley]

- Original Message - 
From: Josh Rubinstein 
To: Cavers Texas 
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 6:43 PM
Subject: [Texascavers] And now for the really bad news







(On behalf of Peter Youngbaer)

Update from Hellhole:

On Saturday, a joint West Virginia Department of Natural Resources, U.S. Fish 
and Wildlife, and NSS project did a photographic documentation and bat 
population survey trip into Hellhole Cave, West Virginia. This project came 
together very quickly over the past 3-4 weeks, once flying bats were observed 
outside the cave. While awaiting laboratory confirmation of WNS in a couple of 
Little Brown bats, organization moved forward on several fronts. I was asked to 
organize cave/bat photographers from around the country and get official NSS 
Project status, while logistics were organized in terms of equipment, travel, 
and permits and waivers.

Fifteen people on three different crews went in to document three separate 
areas of the cave. Each crew had guides from the Germany Valley Karst Survey, a 
biologist, and photographic crews. The jobs were to photograph everything, 
count and observe bats, replace temperature and humidity data loggers, and 
remove an appropriate number of bat carcasses, if any. We were able to connect 
with and include a National Geographic photographer and assistant, who are 
working on a WNS story for a future issue. Hellhole is only one of the sites 
they have visited.

For context, Hellhole is West Virginia's largest bat hibernaculum. The last 
survey (2007) showed over 112,000 bats. The majority are Little Browns, but 
some 4-5% of the known Indiana bats live here, and over 6,000 Virginia Big Ears 
- about 45% of the entire known population on the planet. The last two species 
are federally listed as endangered.

The bad news: upon arriving at the sinkhole entrance, plenty of bats were 
readily observed exiting the cave and flying outside. Many flew off into the 
distance to a certain death, given the absence of food supply this time of 
year. Others were seen landing and "wing-walking" on the snow.

In the entrance room (a 160 foot drop into a huge bell chamber), bats were 
everywhere - flying, on the walls, and the floor littered with carcasses. 
Virtually all were Little Browns. From one 15 meter square sample area, a 
gallon-size Ziplock bag was filled with dead bats. The rest of the floor was 
the same. For context, the 2007 survey observed only one bat in the entrance 
room.

At the different Little Brown roosting sites, WNS was in clear evidence, and 
carcasses found along the way. In the deepest recesses of LBB roosts, lesser 
amounts of the fungus were evident, implying that bats had moved to the 
entrance area, consistent with behaviors observed in northern sites.

The Indiana clusters also showed WNS - ranging from a reported 12% to 50%. An 
observer who had NY sites to compare said it looked like what they had seen in 
year one of an infestation. For comparison, the data from the northeastern 
sites affected for several years has shown that the Indiana mortality numbers 
are in the 50% range, as compared with the Little Browns well into the 90% 
range.

The good news: No evidence of WNS was seen in the Virginia Big Ears. This was 
extremely encouraging, as their roosts are located in places along the routes 
where the other infected species pass. Some pre-trip speculation had hoped that 
things might be different with this species. Why? 1. It's a different species; 
2. they roost in very dry areas (70% humidity as confirmed by data loggers); 3. 
they roost in very cold areas - around 32 degrees F, including occasionally 
below (again temperature loggers at the sites have shown this consistently); 4. 
they rouse quickly, which may indicate they don't need to burn the sort of fat 
reserves other species do in order to amount an immune response.

All of these things will need to studied and analyzed, of course, but, for now, 
the news is very good. Let's hope it stays that way. A caution: we've seen WNS 
progress very slowing in other how-humidity sites, but not be stopped, so we'll 
need to see that the VBE's continue to remain untouched over a few years. This 
is just one site, and one observation, but it's clearly a highly significant 
one.

The work of compiling all the thousands of photographs taken, the comparison of 
the traditional clicker and cluster density methods of counting to the new 
photographic methods, and the analysis of the data logger data, will take a 
while, so a more complete report will come later. An NSS News article is 
planned for the future.

A huge thanks to the cavers of the Germany Valley Karst Survey for not only 
safely and efficiently guiding the crews to the sites, but also for use of 
their field house for pre- and post-cave meetings.

One last, but important note: Hellhole is owned by a limestone quarry, which 
electronically monitors the cave for any unauthorized intrusion. As a result, 
we know that no one 

texascavers Digest 23 Feb 2010 00:43:12 -0000 Issue 983

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 23 Feb 2010 00:43:12 - Issue 983

Topics (messages 13813 through 13826):

Re: Lemons Ranch Cave
13813 by: Fritz Holt

Re: caves versus guns
13814 by: Matt Turner
13819 by: Fritz Holt
13820 by: Fritz Holt
13825 by: Rod Goke

Re: caves versus guns versus cavers
13815 by: Andy Gluesenkamp
13818 by: Don Arburn
13821 by: Fritz Holt

Re: cave guns
13816 by: Fritz Holt
13817 by: Fritz Holt

famous last words
13822 by: Eric Flint

arms and Arizona
13823 by: Mixon Bill
13824 by: Ron Ralph

And now for the really bad news
13826 by: Josh Rubinstein

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
I'll remember (maybe) to use that as an excuse.

Fritz


From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org]
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:21 PM
To: Andy Zenker; mark gee
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Lemons Ranch Cave



High CO2 can cause daine bramage and make you forget things.

G

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not sure where my last post went to, but here we go. 

Ignoring the last stupid post here(sleaze)

Here's a question for you. Why are yall caving with people you don't trust to 
have a gun around you? No matter what cave we go into our lives are in each 
other's hands. A stupid mistake in a cave is as serious as a stupid mistake 
with a gun.  I have to say if I don't trust someone to handle a gun then I 
won't go caving with them and neither should anyone else. 

Did I advocate someone putting one in their cave pack? No. But if they left it 
safely near the entrance without a bullet in the chamber how is this some how 
an extra danger?
You're more likely to get hurt by their knife in this case than the gun. 

I can easily bet everyone posting on here has been on a trip where a gun was 
present. I know most of the posters and I know who they've been caving with so 
I can say for a fact actually that most have, even when they weren't caving 
with me. If the gun owner is being responsible then most people there will not 
know you have it unless something comes up and it's suddenly needed. 

Most of the anti-gun posts I see on here so far have been more ideologically 
based than they have been in response to mine or other's responses. Most seemed 
to have read gun and then posted their automated anti-gun response.  Some have 
posted about how it's for snake detection, but that is not what any of the 
pro-gun people said at all. They said they knew Ronny carried one for if he 
found a snake. 

Again if you can't trust you fellow cavers with a gun then you should re-think 
who you go caving with. Having a gun shouldn't be a determinate, for if you 
should have them on a cave trip, anymore than their political views or 
sexuality.  If they don't have a history of making bad mistakes with guns (and 
if they do I wouldn't cave with them anyhow) and you ostracize them just for 
having one, you might as well ostracize a conservative, christian, muslim, or 
homosexual.  
 Matt Turner 


"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without 
accepting it." - Aristotle


"Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can do 
that."- Norman Vincent Peale 



  --- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This makes me want to re-up.


From: Robert B [mailto:robert.c.b1...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 9:47 AM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] caves versus guns

Oh, don't be such wusses, I always cave with my gun

sing along with me

this is my rifle
this is my gun
this one's fer killin'
this one's fer fun

now get up out of your cubicle hellhole and let's just sing it louder cuz its 
so fun

this is my rifle
this is my gun
this one's fer killin'
this one's fer fun


Let us Pray,
This is my rifle. There are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my 
best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without 
me, my rifle is useless. Without my rifle I am useless. I must fire my rifle 
true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy, who is trying to kill me. I must 
shoot him before he shoots me. I will. Before God I swear this creed: my rifle 
and myself are defenders of my country, we are the masters of our enemy, we are 
the saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen. 
"goodnight ladies"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wise-ass remarks aside, I agree with John but I hate to miss an opportunity. 
Sorry, Joe.



From: John P Brooks [mailto:jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 10:32 AM

[Texascavers] And now for the really bad news

[Josh Rubinstein]

(On behalf of Peter Youngbaer)

Update from Hellhole:

On Saturday, a joint West Virginia Department of Natural Resources, U.S.
Fish and Wildlife, and NSS project did a photographic documentation and bat
population survey trip into Hellhole Cave, West Virginia. This project came
together very quickly over the past 3-4 weeks, once flying bats were
observed outside the cave. While awaiting laboratory confirmation of WNS in
a couple of Little Brown bats, organization moved forward on several fronts.
I was asked to organize cave/bat photographers from around the country and
get official NSS Project status, while logistics were organized in terms of
equipment, travel, and permits and waivers.

Fifteen people on three different crews went in to document three separate
areas of the cave. Each crew had guides from the Germany Valley Karst
Survey, a biologist, and photographic crews. The jobs were to photograph
everything, count and observe bats, replace temperature and humidity data
loggers, and remove an appropriate number of bat carcasses, if any. We were
able to connect with and include a National Geographic photographer and
assistant, who are working on a WNS story for a future issue. Hellhole is
only one of the sites they have visited.

For context, Hellhole is West Virginia's largest bat hibernaculum. The last
survey (2007) showed over 112,000 bats. The majority are Little Browns, but
some 4-5% of the known Indiana bats live here, and over 6,000 Virginia Big
Ears - about 45% of the entire known population on the planet. The last two
species are federally listed as endangered.

The bad news: upon arriving at the sinkhole entrance, plenty of bats were
readily observed exiting the cave and flying outside. Many flew off into the
distance to a certain death, given the absence of food supply this time of
year. Others were seen landing and "wing-walking" on the snow.

In the entrance room (a 160 foot drop into a huge bell chamber), bats were
everywhere - flying, on the walls, and the floor littered with carcasses.
Virtually all were Little Browns. From one 15 meter square sample area, a
gallon-size Ziplock bag was filled with dead bats. The rest of the floor was
the same. For context, the 2007 survey observed only one bat in the entrance
room.

At the different Little Brown roosting sites, WNS was in clear evidence, and
carcasses found along the way. In the deepest recesses of LBB roosts, lesser
amounts of the fungus were evident, implying that bats had moved to the
entrance area, consistent with behaviors observed in northern sites.

The Indiana clusters also showed WNS - ranging from a reported 12% to 50%.
An observer who had NY sites to compare said it looked like what they had
seen in year one of an infestation. For comparison, the data from the
northeastern sites affected for several years has shown that the Indiana
mortality numbers are in the 50% range, as compared with the Little Browns
well into the 90% range.

The good news: No evidence of WNS was seen in the Virginia Big Ears. This
was extremely encouraging, as their roosts are located in places along the
routes where the other infected species pass. Some pre-trip speculation had
hoped that things might be different with this species. Why? 1. It's a
different species; 2. they roost in very dry areas (70% humidity as
confirmed by data loggers); 3. they roost in very cold areas - around 32
degrees F, including occasionally below (again temperature loggers at the
sites have shown this consistently); 4. they rouse quickly, which may
indicate they don't need to burn the sort of fat reserves other species do
in order to amount an immune response.

All of these things will need to studied and analyzed, of course, but, for
now, the news is very good. Let's hope it stays that way. A caution: we've
seen WNS progress very slowing in other how-humidity sites, but not be
stopped, so we'll need to see that the VBE's continue to remain untouched
over a few years. This is just one site, and one observation, but it's
clearly a highly significant one.

The work of compiling all the thousands of photographs taken, the comparison
of the traditional clicker and cluster density methods of counting to the
new photographic methods, and the analysis of the data logger data, will
take a while, so a more complete report will come later. An NSS News article
is planned for the future.

A huge thanks to the cavers of the Germany Valley Karst Survey for not only
safely and efficiently guiding the crews to the sites, but also for use of
their field house for pre- and post-cave meetings.

One last, but important note: Hellhole is owned by a limestone quarry, which
electronically monitors the cave for any unauthorized intrusion. As a
result, we know that no one has been in the cave since February, 2007. Thus,
we know that WNS arrived here by bat to bat transmission, not via humans.

Peter Youngbaer
NSS 16161
WNS Liaison

Re: [Texascavers] caves versus guns

[Rod Goke]

Thanks, Matt, for maintaining a voice of respectful reason amid the recent storm of mockery, name calling, and childish attempts to ridicule anyone who disagrees with some people's opinions on a controversial issue. When it comes to trusting people with any important safety related activity, whether its carrying a gun, leading a caving trip, or driving an automobile, I'm more inclined to have confidence in those with the emotional stability to make rational, respectful arguments in a serious discussion (even if I don't agree with everything they say) than I am those who lose their cool and resort to mockery and insults. Rod-Original Message-
From: Matt Turner 
Sent: Feb 22, 2010 1:10 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] caves versus guns


I'm not sure where my last post went to, but here we go. 
 
Ignoring the last stupid post here(sleaze)
 
Here's a question for you. Why are yall caving with people you don't trust to have a gun around you? No matter what cave we go into our lives are in each other's hands. A stupid mistake in a cave is as serious as a stupid mistake with a gun.  I have to say if I don't trust someone to handle a gun then I won't go caving with them and neither should anyone else. 
 
Did I advocate someone putting one in their cave pack? No. But if they left it safely near the entrance without a bullet in the chamber how is this some how an extra danger?
You're more likely to get hurt by their knife in this case than the gun. 
 
I can easily bet everyone posting on here has been on a trip where a gun was present. I know most of the posters and I know who they've been caving with so I can say for a fact actually that most have, even when they weren't caving with me. If the gun owner is being responsible then most people there will not know you have it unless something comes up and it's suddenly needed. 
 
Most of the anti-gun posts I see on here so far have been more ideologically based than they have been in response to mine or other's responses. Most seemed to have read gun and then posted their automated anti-gun response.  Some have posted about how it's for snake detection, but that is not what any of the pro-gun people said at all. They said they knew Ronny carried one for if he found a snake. 
 
Again if you can't trust you fellow cavers with a gun then you should re-think who you go caving with. Having a gun shouldn't be a determinate, for if you should have them on a cave trip, anymore than their political views or sexuality.  If they don't have a history of making bad mistakes with guns (and if they do I wouldn't cave with them anyhow) and you ostracize them just for having one, you might as well ostracize a conservative, christian, muslim, or homosexual.   Matt Turner 

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
"Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can do that."- Norman Vincent Peale 


  

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RE: [Texascavers] arms and Arizona

[Ron Ralph]

Well Bill, I don't know how dangerous he was, although the posting on your
website sure make him out to be tough. When Raines, Rune, Bill Bell and I
walked across the Grand Canyon with him many days ago, he was caring and
sharing. He showed us (including Laidlaw and McLane) Roaring Springs Cave
and got us permission to sleep in the electrical power house. He later
showed me the water supply (cave) for Tempe just north of where he lived
(just down from Goldwater's house), so he was not one of the "nothing to
speak of" Arizona cavers.

Another time we came off the North Rim and dropped into Vasey's Paradise
with only a small amount of violence at the end when Rick Remington proved
his .22 prowess by throwing Peter's hard hat into the air and shooting a
hole through the center. Peter though, never ruffled, simply picked up
Rick's caving hard hat, walked to the back of his truck, placed it on the
tail-gate and calmly smashed it with a 2-bound sledge. Come to think about
it, I guess we should outlaw sledge hammers on caving trips, just to be
safe.

Peter was made honorary chaplain of the UT Grotto back when UT meant the
University of Texas and, I think, still holds that position today, having
never been replaced. He would probably still be caving except for that
little rock fall at Black Abyss. But that is another story.

Ron



-Original Message-
From: Mixon Bill [mailto:bmixon...@austin.rr.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 1:47 PM
To: Cavers Texas
Subject: [Texascavers] arms and Arizona

One of the more fanatical Arizona cavers as far as secrecy, hiding  
caves, etc., was Peter Kokalis, if I recall correctly. And he was an  
editor at Soldier of Fortune, specializing in automatic weapons.  
Althogether a dangerous-sounding character. Found comments about him at
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-157568.html. -- Mixon

All the world's a stage, but the play is badly cast.

You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


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[Texascavers] arms and Arizona

[Mixon Bill]

One of the more fanatical Arizona cavers as far as secrecy, hiding  
caves, etc., was Peter Kokalis, if I recall correctly. And he was an  
editor at Soldier of Fortune, specializing in automatic weapons.  
Althogether a dangerous-sounding character. Found comments about him at

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-157568.html. -- Mixon

All the world’s a stage, but the play is badly cast.

You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


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[Texascavers] famous last words

[Eric Flint]

I disagree with you Andy it's usually "hey y'all hold my beer now watch
this"

RE: [Texascavers] caves versus guns versus cavers

[Fritz Holt]

People with a CHL are good law abiding citizens and nice to have in crowded 
public places, where permitted.
The only time I carry is when  recreational shooting is part of the trip.

Fritz


From: Don Arburn [mailto:donarb...@mac.com]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 12:56 PM
To: Texas Cavers List
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] caves versus guns versus cavers


On Feb 22, 2010, at 12:33 PM, Andy Gluesenkamp 
<andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com>
 wrote:
Matt, a responsible caver would mention the gun in his pocket before joining a 
cave trip.  CCW is not the same as one's sexual orientation or religious 
belief.  CCW could alter the lifespan of everyone around you.

Andy

Actually, according to the law, the name of the game is "concealment". A CCL 
wouldn't tell you he has a gun in his/her pocket. You don't need to ever know.


Don

RE: [Texascavers] caves versus guns

[Fritz Holt]

Wise-ass remarks aside, I agree with John but I hate to miss an opportunity. 
Sorry, Joe.



From: John P Brooks [mailto:jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 10:32 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] caves versus guns

I would agree with AndyI am not one of the states foremost 
snake-i-tologists, picnic-i-tologists or gun-i-toligists...nor do I own a gun. 
But in over 30 years of caving in Texas and in the rattlesnake invested 
Arbuckle Mountains; I have never seen the need to carry a gun, or shoot a snake 
in or out of a cave.
In fact; I might add, a foremost observant, competent caver can typically 
detect the presence of a rattlesnake by simply checking the entrance of a cave 
before entering it, by simply tossing a couple of rocks or making some noise 
with a stick.the tell tale signs of rattlesnakes are pretty easy to pick 
up...even if one doesn't have a fire armfor one thing; they usually will 
rattle...and for another; rattlesnakes typically smell really bad.
Guns maybe useful as a prosthetic penis...but guns are not necessary for caving 
or snake detection.


---

RE: [Texascavers] caves versus guns

[Fritz Holt]

This makes me want to re-up.


From: Robert B [mailto:robert.c.b1...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 9:47 AM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] caves versus guns

Oh, don't be such wusses, I always cave with my gun

sing along with me

this is my rifle
this is my gun
this one's fer killin'
this one's fer fun

now get up out of your cubicle hellhole and let's just sing it louder cuz its 
so fun

this is my rifle
this is my gun
this one's fer killin'
this one's fer fun


Let us Pray,
This is my rifle. There are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my 
best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without 
me, my rifle is useless. Without my rifle I am useless. I must fire my rifle 
true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy, who is trying to kill me. I must 
shoot him before he shoots me. I will. Before God I swear this creed: my rifle 
and myself are defenders of my country, we are the masters of our enemy, we are 
the saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen. 
"goodnight ladies"

Re: [Texascavers] caves versus guns versus cavers

[Don Arburn]

On Feb 22, 2010, at 12:33 PM, Andy Gluesenkamp > wrote:
Matt, a responsible caver would mention the gun in his pocket before  
joining a cave trip.  CCW is not the same as one's sexual  
orientation or religious belief.  CCW could alter the lifespan of  
everyone around you.


Andy

Actually, according to the law, the name of the game is  
"concealment". A CCL wouldn't tell you he has a gun in his/her  
pocket. You don't need to ever know.


Don

RE: [Texascavers] cave guns

[Fritz Holt]

A bazooka has more range than a Grenade.


From: wesley s [mailto:mudmal...@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 9:32 AM
To: kat...@yahoo.com; texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] cave guns

I always cave with a few flash bangs and a concussion grenade. Those snakes 
don't know what hit em! Makes quick work or constrictions too.

Wes~

RE: [Texascavers] cave guns

[Fritz Holt]

Matt,

As an NRA life member since 1953 with a CHL I agree with you but likewise, I 
rarely carry. Of course, a gun could be handy when in the company of cavers who 
make bad air.

Fritz


From: Matt Turner [mailto:kat...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 21, 2010 7:45 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] cave guns

Though not a surprise to anyone who knows me. I definitely would not have a 
problem with someone carrying a gun with them to a cave. Would I?  Probably not 
mainly from a logistical problem.

I don't think as many cavers as you think have problems with guns. I mean just 
this weekend at See my shovel I brought out a small arsenal of weapons( of 
course with the land owners blessing) and most of the cavers there had a 
blast(pun intended) with them. It was a nice after caving, pre-campfire, 
activity.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people using guns, knives, cars, and 
airplanes.

Matt Turner

"

Re: [Texascavers] caves versus guns versus cavers

[Andy Gluesenkamp]

Uhm, examples of stupid things cavers have done while on caving trips:
 
-took a pic of a rattler from too close (ouch, long hike out!)
-zippped on a steel cable across Devil's Sinkhole using an aluminum 'biner
-dove into a spring headfirst (that was me)
 
All reasonably cautious and experienced cavers involved.  Now let's add guns?  
 
Cavers do enough stupid things and make enough bad decisions without adding one 
more potentially lethal ingredient to the mix.  
 
Matt, a responsible caver would mention the gun in his pocket before joining a 
cave trip.  CCW is not the same as one's sexual orientation or religious 
belief.  CCW could alter the lifespan of everyone around you.    
 
Andy




 
 
Again if you can't trust you fellow cavers with a gun then you should re-think 
who you go caving with. Having a gun shouldn't be a determinate, for if you 
should have them on a cave trip, anymore than their political views or 
sexuality.  If they don't have a history of making bad mistakes with guns (and 
if they do I wouldn't cave with them anyhow) and you ostracize them just for 
having one, you might as well ostracize a conservative, christian, muslim, or 
homosexual.  
 Matt Turner 

Re: [Texascavers] caves versus guns

[Matt Turner]

I'm not sure where my last post went to, but here we go. 

Ignoring the last stupid post here(sleaze)

Here's a question for you. Why are yall caving with people you don't trust to 
have a gun around you? No matter what cave we go into our lives are in each 
other's hands. A stupid mistake in a cave is as serious as a stupid mistake 
with a gun.  I have to say if I don't trust someone to handle a gun then I 
won't go caving with them and neither should anyone else. 

Did I advocate someone putting one in their cave pack? No. But if they left it 
safely near the entrance without a bullet in the chamber how is this some how 
an extra danger?
You're more likely to get hurt by their knife in this case than the gun. 

I can easily bet everyone posting on here has been on a trip where a gun was 
present. I know most of the posters and I know who they've been caving with so 
I can say for a fact actually that most have, even when they weren't caving 
with me. If the gun owner is being responsible then most people there will not 
know you have it unless something comes up and it's suddenly needed. 

Most of the anti-gun posts I see on here so far have been more ideologically 
based than they have been in response to mine or other's responses. Most seemed 
to have read gun and then posted their automated anti-gun response.  Some have 
posted about how it's for snake detection, but that is not what any of the 
pro-gun people said at all. They said they knew Ronny carried one for if he 
found a snake. 

Again if you can't trust you fellow cavers with a gun then you should re-think 
who you go caving with. Having a gun shouldn't be a determinate, for if you 
should have them on a cave trip, anymore than their political views or 
sexuality.  If they don't have a history of making bad mistakes with guns (and 
if they do I wouldn't cave with them anyhow) and you ostracize them just for 
having one, you might as well ostracize a conservative, christian, muslim, or 
homosexual.  
 Matt Turner 


"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without 
accepting it." - Aristotle


"Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can do 
that."- Norman Vincent Peale 



  

RE: [Texascavers] Lemons Ranch Cave

[Fritz Holt]

I'll remember (maybe) to use that as an excuse.

Fritz


From: Geary Schindel [mailto:gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org]
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 1:21 PM
To: Andy Zenker; mark gee
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Lemons Ranch Cave



High CO2 can cause daine bramage and make you forget things.

G

texascavers Digest 22 Feb 2010 17:54:48 -0000 Issue 982

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 22 Feb 2010 17:54:48 - Issue 982

Topics (messages 13807 through 13812):

Re: Guns in National Parks, caves, and elsewhere:
13807 by: BMorgan994.aol.com
13808 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
13812 by: Fritz Holt

cave guns versus snakes
13809 by: Andy Gluesenkamp
13810 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com

Re: guns and booze
13811 by: Jim Kennedy

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for giving me yet another opportunity to offend the god, guns, and  
guts crowd, or as I prefer to put it, the dickless cowardly twits that feel  
compelled to "carry" so as to protect themselves from their imaginary 
enemies.  Have they no faith in their imaginary gods? 
 
Don’t get me wrong, the world is a dangerous place and I have nothing  
against guns, in fact I think every woman should own one. When guns are 
outlawed 
 only soldiers, cops, criminals, rednecks, and men will have them, more 
than  enough reason to buy one today! Nor do I have anything against violence, 
it is  so much fun that I have to restrain myself. 
 
The main reason I don’t feel the need to carry a gun is that I am  
comfortable with the capabilities of my penis (let’s not discuss the caliber,  
barrel length, or how many rounds it holds). I carry it with me everywhere I 
go.  
I reach into my pocket and there it is, always at the ready. I can even 
find it  in the dark. It makes a man feel mighty big to know that he’s packing 
heat  and ready for whatever comes. Aside from that there is the weight of 
the  bullets, so many worthy targets, so little time. 
 
Nevertheless, there are some good reasons to carry a gun. 
 
I try to avoid National Parks, but sometimes it is hard to find anyplace  
else to camp. I’ll admit that a gun would come in mighty handy in the event 
that  a family in a Winnebago pulls up next to my tent then runs the 
generator all  night. 
 
Shooting hibernating snakes from five feet away is good practice for  
shooting hibernating bats since neither species moves much. Those filthy little 
 
flying rats carry all kinds of hideous diseases, and if we don’t “manage” 
the  population then they are gonna get out of control. We were given 
dominion  dammit, and it is up to us to see to it that god’s work gets done!
 
Americans know that guns keep us free. That must be true because the  
Afghanis all carry guns and they are whipping our asses. Wouldn’t it just be  
great to live there? No need to go so far though, Texas is a very similar place 
 to Afghanistan, a dried up cow eaten scrubland full of ignorant godfearing 
gun  toting fanatics who will shoot you just because you crossed a fence, 
or looked  at someone’s sister, or walked past his goat herd, or “ain’t from 
around here”  or simply just because. 
 
The only part I don’t understand is how I’ve managed not to get shot thus  
far. I’ve spent my entire life traveling to dangerous places all over the 
world  doing things like tracking jaguars and catching snakes, have joined 
outlaw  bands, have entered various war zones, have pushed aside the barrels 
of  soldier’s rifles, grabbed guns out of the hands of headhunters, 
participated in  numerous drug deals, gotten drunk in hundreds of redneck 
honkytonks, 
and have  trespassed countless thousands of times on my way to caves and 
other venues. 
 
I’ve been shot at a few times. The closest call was due to skinny dipping  
in the Pacific in Humboldt county CA. I had confronted a fellow who was 
shooting  sea lions for “stealing fish” (this after he had left about eighty 
pound of  grunions rotting in a sack since he was too lazy to carry them up 
the cliff).  Soon bullets were peppering the sand all around me, so I grabbed 
my boots and a  club then ran naked up the ravine intending to head him off 
then club the  bastard to death when he stopped at the gate on the cliff 
high above. Imagine my  chagrin to discover I was one ravine off, so when the 
station wagon came around  the turn his wife began to yell, “Look! There’s 
another one of them damned naked  hippies. Shoot him! Shoot him!” Whereupon I 
did a double gainer off the cliff.  If only I had thought to bring a high 
powered rifle to the beach we could have  evened things up! 
 
It’s true, I’ve been lucky, but if I don’t need a gun howcum you do? 
(Refer  to paragraph one above.)
 
Sleazeweazel
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great post, Sleaze!

 

I may not always agree, but, I am always entertained!

 

 

Keep up the good work!

 

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: bmorgan...@aol.com [mailto:bmorgan...@aol.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 11:33 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Guns in National Parks, caves, and elsewhere: 

 

Thanks for giving me yet another op

RE: [Texascavers] Re: Guns in National Parks, caves, and elsewhere:

[Fritz Holt]

BRAGGART!  (Where can I buy your auto-biography)?

Fritz


From: bmorgan...@aol.com [mailto:bmorgan...@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 11:33 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Guns in National Parks, caves, and elsewhere:

Thanks for giving me yet another opportunity to offend the god, guns, and guts 
crowd, or as I prefer to put it, the dickless cowardly twits that feel 
compelled to "carry" so as to protect themselves from their imaginary enemies. 
Have they no faith in their imaginary gods?

Don't get me wrong, the world is a dangerous place and I have nothing against 
guns, in fact I think every woman should own one. When guns are outlawed only 
soldiers, cops, criminals, rednecks, and men will have them, more than enough 
reason to buy one today! Nor do I have anything against violence, it is so much 
fun that I have to restrain myself.

The main reason I don't feel the need to carry a gun is that I am comfortable 
with the capabilities of my penis (let's not discuss the caliber, barrel 
length, or how many rounds it holds). I carry it with me everywhere I go. I 
reach into my pocket and there it is, always at the ready. I can even find it 
in the dark. It makes a man feel mighty big to know that he's packing heat and 
ready for whatever comes. Aside from that there is the weight of the bullets, 
so many worthy targets, so little time.

Nevertheless, there are some good reasons to carry a gun.

I try to avoid National Parks, but sometimes it is hard to find anyplace else 
to camp. I'll admit that a gun would come in mighty handy in the event that a 
family in a Winnebago pulls up next to my tent then runs the generator all 
night.

Shooting hibernating snakes from five feet away is good practice for shooting 
hibernating bats since neither species moves much. Those filthy little flying 
rats carry all kinds of hideous diseases, and if we don't "manage" the 
population then they are gonna get out of control. We were given dominion 
dammit, and it is up to us to see to it that god's work gets done!

Americans know that guns keep us free. That must be true because the Afghanis 
all carry guns and they are whipping our asses. Wouldn't it just be great to 
live there? No need to go so far though, Texas is a very similar place to 
Afghanistan, a dried up cow eaten scrubland full of ignorant godfearing gun 
toting fanatics who will shoot you just because you crossed a fence, or looked 
at someone's sister, or walked past his goat herd, or "ain't from around here" 
or simply just because.

The only part I don't understand is how I've managed not to get shot thus far. 
I've spent my entire life traveling to dangerous places all over the world 
doing things like tracking jaguars and catching snakes, have joined outlaw 
bands, have entered various war zones, have pushed aside the barrels of 
soldier's rifles, grabbed guns out of the hands of headhunters, participated in 
numerous drug deals, gotten drunk in hundreds of redneck honkytonks, and have 
trespassed countless thousands of times on my way to caves and other venues.

I've been shot at a few times. The closest call was due to skinny dipping in 
the Pacific in Humboldt county CA. I had confronted a fellow who was shooting 
sea lions for "stealing fish" (this after he had left about eighty pound of 
grunions rotting in a sack since he was too lazy to carry them up the cliff). 
Soon bullets were peppering the sand all around me, so I grabbed my boots and a 
club then ran naked up the ravine intending to head him off then club the 
bastard to death when he stopped at the gate on the cliff high above. Imagine 
my chagrin to discover I was one ravine off, so when the station wagon came 
around the turn his wife began to yell, "Look! There's another one of them 
damned naked hippies. Shoot him! Shoot him!" Whereupon I did a double gainer 
off the cliff. If only I had thought to bring a high powered rifle to the beach 
we could have evened things up!

It's true, I've been lucky, but if I don't need a gun howcum you do? (Refer to 
paragraph one above.)

Sleazeweazel

[Texascavers] RE: guns and booze

[Jim Kennedy]

About 18-20 years ago when I was living in L.A. (Lower Alabama), one of
the most popular small businesses in a nearby little town was the
drive-through liquor and gun store.  Someone must have thought it was a
good idea.  Oh wait --- I was assuming thought entered into the
equation.

 

-- Crash

 

From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 11:40 AM
To: kat...@yahoo.com; texascavers@texascavers.com; wesley s
Subject: [Texascavers] cave guns versus snakes

 

 

"Recent statistics show that most bite victims are men between the ages
of twenty and forty, and that most bites are on hands and feet. Alcohol
is typically involved in behavior leading to a bite and the victim is
commonly attempting to impress friends when the bite occurs." 

 

Now, add a gun to the mix and you have some REAL fun!

 

RE: [Texascavers] cave guns versus snakes

[Mark . Alman]

A Redneck's last words:

 

 

"Hey, y'all! Watch this!"

 

 

 

Mark

 

 

From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 11:40 AM
To: kat...@yahoo.com; texascavers@texascavers.com; wesley s
Subject: [Texascavers] cave guns versus snakes

 

 

"Recent statistics show that most bite victims are men between the ages
of twenty and forty, and that most bites are on hands and feet. Alcohol
is typically involved in behavior leading to a bite and the victim is
commonly attempting to impress friends when the bite occurs." 

 

Now, add a gun to the mix and you have some REAL fun!

 

AGG

Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com

 

[Texascavers] cave guns versus snakes

[Andy Gluesenkamp]

 
"Recent statistics show that most bite victims are men between the ages of 
twenty and forty, and that most bites are on hands and feet. Alcohol is 
typically involved in behavior leading to a bite and the victim is commonly 
attempting to impress friends when the bite occurs." 
 
Now, add a gun to the mix and you have some REAL fun!
 
AGG

Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com

--- On Mon, 2/22/10, wesley s  wrote:


From: wesley s 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] cave guns
To: kat...@yahoo.com, texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Monday, February 22, 2010, 9:32 AM




I always cave with a few flash bangs and a concussion grenade. Those snakes 
don't know what hit em! Makes quick work or constrictions too.

Wes~



List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:45:12 -0800
From: kat...@yahoo.com
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] cave guns



#yiv537612973 .ExternalClass DIV
{}





Though not a surprise to anyone who knows me. I definitely would not have a 
problem with someone carrying a gun with them to a cave. Would I?  Probably not 
mainly from a logistical problem. 
 
I don't think as many cavers as you think have problems with guns. I mean just 
this weekend at See my shovel I brought out a small arsenal of weapons( of 
course with the land owners blessing) and most of the cavers there had a 
blast(pun intended) with them. It was a nice after caving, pre-campfire, 
activity.
 
Guns don't kill people, people kill people using guns, knives, cars, and 
airplanes. 
 Matt Turner 



"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without 
accepting it." - Aristotle


"Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can do 
that."- Norman Vincent Peale 






From: David 
To: Cavers Texas 
Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 12:14:17 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] cave guns

Starting Monday, you will be able to take your caving guns inside
almost all federally
owned caves.  The exceptions are the tour caves.

You will need to have a concealed permit and make sure that the state
you are caving in
accepts your state's permit, or you will have to apply for a permit in
that state.

So what size gun do you pack?

A 60 caliber hand-gun would be too big for most caving packs.

A 50 caliber ought to do the trick:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9nu4csc5kbA/0.jpg


I hope you can sense that I am mocking this new regulation.


So let's say you in a caving group hiking to Madonna Cave and you are
all packing heat.
You get to the cave, suit up, and then what?    Do you all leave your
guns in the entrance?
What if you come out of the cave to find some shady characters holding
your guns at you?
So I guess you take the guns in far enough so that that does not happen.

Can anybody think of a reason other than snakes to carry a gun on a
hike to a federally owned cave?  A bear ?  A mountain lion ?  A
wolf or coyote?  A fugitive hiding in a cave?

I think the ammunition should be carried in a separate compartment of
the back-pack, and the gun should be in a Pelican case.

I think the chances are more likely that more people are going to be
accidentally shot ( and probably kids ), than the guns being used to
defend in a situation.

I don't think cavers should carry guns on their hike to a
"federally-owned" cave.

But if some caver chose to do so, would he or she be, disrespected?

I would encourage any caver with me that wanted to carry a gun on the
hike, to leave it at the car and locked up.    ( This is all
theoretical, as I would have to be going caving! )

If he said no, then I would tell him I am not going caving.    If that
failed,  then I would want to make sure the gun was hidden beyond the
twilight zone, under a rock, and covered with dirt.

I see no reason to take a gun on a short hike, like Cottonwood Cave,
or Hidden Cave?    Those are BLM caves though, and all National Forest
lands have had an "open carry," policy for some time.    Right?
Has that policy ever produced a gun related issue with a cave trip?

David Locklear

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RE: [Texascavers] Re: Guns in National Parks, caves, and elsewhere:

[Mark . Alman]

Great post, Sleaze!

 

I may not always agree, but, I am always entertained!

 

 

Keep up the good work!

 

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: bmorgan...@aol.com [mailto:bmorgan...@aol.com] 
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010 11:33 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Re: Guns in National Parks, caves, and elsewhere: 

 

Thanks for giving me yet another opportunity to offend the god, guns, and guts 
crowd, or as I prefer to put it, the dickless cowardly twits that feel 
compelled to "carry" so as to protect themselves from their imaginary enemies. 
Have they no faith in their imaginary gods? 

 

[Texascavers] Re: Guns in National Parks, caves, and elsewhere:

[BMorgan994]

Thanks for giving me yet another opportunity to offend the god, guns, and  
guts crowd, or as I prefer to put it, the dickless cowardly twits that feel  
compelled to "carry" so as to protect themselves from their imaginary 
enemies.  Have they no faith in their imaginary gods? 
 
Don’t get me wrong, the world is a dangerous place and I have nothing  
against guns, in fact I think every woman should own one. When guns are 
outlawed 
 only soldiers, cops, criminals, rednecks, and men will have them, more 
than  enough reason to buy one today! Nor do I have anything against violence, 
it is  so much fun that I have to restrain myself. 
 
The main reason I don’t feel the need to carry a gun is that I am  
comfortable with the capabilities of my penis (let’s not discuss the caliber,  
barrel length, or how many rounds it holds). I carry it with me everywhere I 
go.  
I reach into my pocket and there it is, always at the ready. I can even 
find it  in the dark. It makes a man feel mighty big to know that he’s packing 
heat  and ready for whatever comes. Aside from that there is the weight of 
the  bullets, so many worthy targets, so little time. 
 
Nevertheless, there are some good reasons to carry a gun. 
 
I try to avoid National Parks, but sometimes it is hard to find anyplace  
else to camp. I’ll admit that a gun would come in mighty handy in the event 
that  a family in a Winnebago pulls up next to my tent then runs the 
generator all  night. 
 
Shooting hibernating snakes from five feet away is good practice for  
shooting hibernating bats since neither species moves much. Those filthy little 
 
flying rats carry all kinds of hideous diseases, and if we don’t “manage” 
the  population then they are gonna get out of control. We were given 
dominion  dammit, and it is up to us to see to it that god’s work gets done!
 
Americans know that guns keep us free. That must be true because the  
Afghanis all carry guns and they are whipping our asses. Wouldn’t it just be  
great to live there? No need to go so far though, Texas is a very similar place 
 to Afghanistan, a dried up cow eaten scrubland full of ignorant godfearing 
gun  toting fanatics who will shoot you just because you crossed a fence, 
or looked  at someone’s sister, or walked past his goat herd, or “ain’t from 
around here”  or simply just because. 
 
The only part I don’t understand is how I’ve managed not to get shot thus  
far. I’ve spent my entire life traveling to dangerous places all over the 
world  doing things like tracking jaguars and catching snakes, have joined 
outlaw  bands, have entered various war zones, have pushed aside the barrels 
of  soldier’s rifles, grabbed guns out of the hands of headhunters, 
participated in  numerous drug deals, gotten drunk in hundreds of redneck 
honkytonks, 
and have  trespassed countless thousands of times on my way to caves and 
other venues. 
 
I’ve been shot at a few times. The closest call was due to skinny dipping  
in the Pacific in Humboldt county CA. I had confronted a fellow who was 
shooting  sea lions for “stealing fish” (this after he had left about eighty 
pound of  grunions rotting in a sack since he was too lazy to carry them up 
the cliff).  Soon bullets were peppering the sand all around me, so I grabbed 
my boots and a  club then ran naked up the ravine intending to head him off 
then club the  bastard to death when he stopped at the gate on the cliff 
high above. Imagine my  chagrin to discover I was one ravine off, so when the 
station wagon came around  the turn his wife began to yell, “Look! There’s 
another one of them damned naked  hippies. Shoot him! Shoot him!” Whereupon I 
did a double gainer off the cliff.  If only I had thought to bring a high 
powered rifle to the beach we could have  evened things up! 
 
It’s true, I’ve been lucky, but if I don’t need a gun howcum you do? 
(Refer  to paragraph one above.)
 
Sleazeweazel

Re: [Texascavers] caves versus guns

[Matt Turner]

First off I don't see the need for a gun for rattlesnake in a cave. Plus i 
don't see the reason to carry a gun deep into a cave either. Again like I said 
logistics are stupid. The gun with bullets would be heavy and two if you fired 
it while you where in the cave you'd probably come out bleeding from your ears. 
 That said Andy I would bet I know a few cavers who you've been on caving trips 
who have had a pistol in their vehicle when they showed up for a caving trip. 

As I said on a private email about this. If you can't trust someone with a gun, 
why are you going caving with them? 

 Matt Turner 


"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without 
accepting it." - Aristotle


"Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can do 
that."- Norman Vincent Peale 





From: Andy Gluesenkamp 
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Sent: Mon, February 22, 2010 9:09:53 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] caves versus guns


Guns and caves don't mix.  I recall a cenTex caver who was coming out of a cave 
when the landowner started shooting at a rattlesnake sitting on a ledge in the 
same sinkhole.  They guy was blasting away at it with a 30/30 from a yard away, 
apparently oblivious to the ricochets.  
Some folks behave responsibly when they play with guns, many do not.  Gun play 
is the polar opposite of the type of attention and consideration of cause and 
effect often required in caving.  If you showed up for a caving trip with a 
gun, I would consider you a reckless dumbass.

Andy

Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
andy@gluesenkamp. 


  

texascavers Digest 22 Feb 2010 16:44:33 -0000 Issue 981

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 22 Feb 2010 16:44:33 - Issue 981

Topics (messages 13798 through 13806):

Re: caves versus guns
13798 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
13799 by: Joe Ranzau
13802 by: Robert B
13803 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com
13805 by: John P Brooks
13806 by: Matt Turner

Re: failure notice
13800 by: Andy Gluesenkamp

Re: cave guns
13801 by: wesley s

Re: caves versus guns - Correction
13804 by: Mark.Alman.l-3com.com

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
Uh-oh, look out!
 
 
Here we go and I'm running for cover.   
 
 
 
(A hunkered down) Mark
 
 



From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Mon 2/22/2010 9:09 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] caves versus guns


Guns and caves don't mix.  I recall a cenTex caver who was coming out of a cave 
when the landowner started shooting at a rattlesnake sitting on a ledge in the 
same sinkhole.  They guy was blasting away at it with a 30/30 from a yard away, 
apparently oblivious to the ricochets.  
Some folks behave responsibly when they play with guns, many do not.  Gun play 
is the polar opposite of the type of attention and consideration of cause and 
effect often required in caving.  If you showed up for a caving trip with a 
gun, I would consider you a reckless dumbass.
 
Andy
 
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
andy@gluesenkamp.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Agreed, this is a no win discussion. Move along folks...  Nothing to  
see here...




Joe

On Feb 22, 2010, at 9:09 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:


Uh-oh, look out!


Here we go and I'm running for cover.



(A hunkered down) Mark



From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Mon 2/22/2010 9:09 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] caves versus guns

Guns and caves don't mix.  I recall a cenTex caver who was coming  
out of a cave when the landowner started shooting at a rattlesnake  
sitting on a ledge in the same sinkhole.  They guy was blasting away  
at it with a 30/30 from a yard away, apparently oblivious to the  
ricochets.
Some folks behave responsibly when they play with guns, many do  
not.  Gun play is the polar opposite of the type of attention and  
consideration of cause and effect often required in caving.  If you  
showed up for a caving trip with a gun, I would consider you a  
reckless dumbass.


Andy

Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
andy@gluesenkamp.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh, don't be such wusses, I always cave with my gun

sing along with me

this is my rifle
this is my gun
this one's fer killin'
this one's fer fun

now get up out of your cubicle hellhole and let's just sing it louder cuz
its so fun

this is my rifle
this is my gun
this one's fer killin'
this one's fer fun


Let us Pray,
This is my rifle. There are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is
my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
Without me, my rifle is useless. Without my rifle I am useless. I must fire
my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy, who is trying to kill
me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will. Before God I swear this
creed: my rifle and myself are defenders of my country, we are the masters
of our enemy, we are the saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no
enemy, but peace. Amen. "goodnight ladies"
On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Joe Ranzau  wrote:

>  Agreed, this is a no win discussion. Move along folks...  Nothing to see
> here...
>
>
>
> Joe
>
> On Feb 22, 2010, at 9:09 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
>
>   Uh-oh, look out!
>
>
> Here we go and I'm running for cover.
>
>
>
> (A hunkered down) Mark
>
>
>
> --
> *From:* Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com]
> *Sent:* Mon 2/22/2010 9:09 AM
> *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com
> *Subject:* [Texascavers] caves versus guns
>
>Guns and caves don't mix.  I recall a cenTex caver who was coming out
> of a cave when the landowner started shooting at a rattlesnake sitting on a
> ledge in the same sinkhole.  They guy was blasting away at it with a 30/30
> from a yard away, apparently oblivious to the ricochets.
> Some folks behave responsibly when they play with guns, many do not.  Gun
> play is the polar opposite of the type of attention and consideration of
> cause and effect often required in caving.  If you showed up for a *caving
> * trip with a gun, I would consider you a reckless dumbass.
>
> Andy
>
> Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
> 700 Billie Brooks Drive
> Driftwood, Texas 78619
> (512) 799-1095
> 

Re: [Texascavers] caves versus guns

[John P Brooks]

I would agree with AndyI am not one of the states foremost 
snake-i-tologists, picnic-i-tologists or gun-i-toligists...nor do I own a gun. 
But in over 30 years of caving in Texas and in the rattlesnake invested 
Arbuckle Mountains; I have never seen the need to carry a gun, or shoot a snake 
in or out of a cave. 
In fact; I might add, a foremost observant, competent caver can typically 
detect the presence of a rattlesnake by simply checking the entrance of a cave 
before entering it, by simply tossing a couple of rocks or making some noise 
with a stick.the tell tale signs of rattlesnakes are pretty easy to pick 
up...even if one doesn't have a fire armfor one thing; they usually will 
rattle...and for another; rattlesnakes typically smell really bad. 
Guns maybe useful as a prosthetic penis...but guns are not necessary for caving 
or snake detection.
 

--- On Mon, 2/22/10, Andy Gluesenkamp  wrote:


From: Andy Gluesenkamp 
Subject: [Texascavers] caves versus guns
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Monday, February 22, 2010, 9:09 AM







Guns and caves don't mix.  I recall a cenTex caver who was coming out of a cave 
when the landowner started shooting at a rattlesnake sitting on a ledge in the 
same sinkhole.  They guy was blasting away at it with a 30/30 from a yard away, 
apparently oblivious to the ricochets.  
Some folks behave responsibly when they play with guns, many do not.  Gun play 
is the polar opposite of the type of attention and consideration of cause and 
effect often required in caving.  If you showed up for a caving trip with a 
gun, I would consider you a reckless dumbass.
 
Andy
 
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
andy@gluesenkamp.

RE: [Texascavers] caves versus guns - Correction

[Mark . Alman]

 
That should read "R. Lee Ermey" and the quote actually goes:
 
 
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Where in the hell are you from anyway, private?

Private: Sir, Texas, sir!

Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Holy dog shit, Texas! Only steers and qs come 
from Texas, private Cowboy! And you don't much look like a steer to me so that 
kinda narrows it down!

 
I'll drop and give me 20.
 
 
Mark
 
 
 



From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com]
Sent: Mon 2/22/2010 9:55 AM
To: Robert B; Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] caves versus guns


Love Full Metal Jacket, especially, R. Lee Armey as the drill sergeant!
 
 
"They only have two things in Texas..."
 
 
As you were.
 
 
Mark
 
 
 
 



From: Robert B [mailto:robert.c.b1...@gmail.com]
Sent: Mon 2/22/2010 9:46 AM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] caves versus guns


Oh, don't be such wusses, I always cave with my gun 
 
sing along with me
 
this is my rifle
this is my gun
this one's fer killin'
this one's fer fun  
 
now get up out of your cubicle hellhole and let's just sing it louder cuz its 
so fun
 
this is my rifle
this is my gun
this one's fer killin'
this one's fer fun  
 
 
Let us Pray,
This is my rifle. There are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my 
best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without 
me, my rifle is useless. Without my rifle I am useless. I must fire my rifle 
true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy, who is trying to kill me. I must 
shoot him before he shoots me. I will. Before God I swear this creed: my rifle 
and myself are defenders of my country, we are the masters of our enemy, we are 
the saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen. 
"goodnight ladies"

RE: [Texascavers] caves versus guns

[Mark . Alman]

Love Full Metal Jacket, especially, R. Lee Armey as the drill sergeant!
 
 
"They only have two things in Texas..."
 
 
As you were.
 
 
Mark
 
 
 
 



From: Robert B [mailto:robert.c.b1...@gmail.com]
Sent: Mon 2/22/2010 9:46 AM
To: Texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] caves versus guns


Oh, don't be such wusses, I always cave with my gun 
 
sing along with me
 
this is my rifle
this is my gun
this one's fer killin'
this one's fer fun  
 
now get up out of your cubicle hellhole and let's just sing it louder cuz its 
so fun
 
this is my rifle
this is my gun
this one's fer killin'
this one's fer fun  
 
 
Let us Pray,
This is my rifle. There are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my 
best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. Without 
me, my rifle is useless. Without my rifle I am useless. I must fire my rifle 
true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy, who is trying to kill me. I must 
shoot him before he shoots me. I will. Before God I swear this creed: my rifle 
and myself are defenders of my country, we are the masters of our enemy, we are 
the saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen. 
"goodnight ladies"

On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Joe Ranzau  wrote:


Agreed, this is a no win discussion. Move along folks...  Nothing to 
see here...




Joe

On Feb 22, 2010, at 9:09 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:



Uh-oh, look out!
 
 
Here we go and I'm running for cover.   
 
 
 
(A hunkered down) Mark
 
 



From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Mon 2/22/2010 9:09 AM
To:  
texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] caves versus guns


Guns and caves don't mix.  I recall a cenTex caver who was coming out of a cave 
when the landowner started shooting at a rattlesnake sitting on a ledge in the 
same sinkhole.  They guy was blasting away at it with a 30/30 from a yard away, 
apparently oblivious to the ricochets.  
Some folks behave responsibly when they play with guns, many do not.  Gun play 
is the polar opposite of the type of attention and consideration of cause and 
effect often required in caving.  If you showed up for a caving trip with a 
gun, I would consider you a reckless dumbass.
 
Andy
 
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
andy@gluesenkamp.

Re: [Texascavers] caves versus guns

[Robert B]

Oh, don't be such wusses, I always cave with my gun

sing along with me

this is my rifle
this is my gun
this one's fer killin'
this one's fer fun

now get up out of your cubicle hellhole and let's just sing it louder cuz
its so fun

this is my rifle
this is my gun
this one's fer killin'
this one's fer fun


Let us Pray,
This is my rifle. There are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is
my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.
Without me, my rifle is useless. Without my rifle I am useless. I must fire
my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy, who is trying to kill
me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will. Before God I swear this
creed: my rifle and myself are defenders of my country, we are the masters
of our enemy, we are the saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no
enemy, but peace. Amen. "goodnight ladies"
On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Joe Ranzau  wrote:

>  Agreed, this is a no win discussion. Move along folks...  Nothing to see
> here...
>
>
>
> Joe
>
> On Feb 22, 2010, at 9:09 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:
>
>   Uh-oh, look out!
>
>
> Here we go and I'm running for cover.
>
>
>
> (A hunkered down) Mark
>
>
>
> --
> *From:* Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com]
> *Sent:* Mon 2/22/2010 9:09 AM
> *To:* texascavers@texascavers.com
> *Subject:* [Texascavers] caves versus guns
>
>Guns and caves don't mix.  I recall a cenTex caver who was coming out
> of a cave when the landowner started shooting at a rattlesnake sitting on a
> ledge in the same sinkhole.  They guy was blasting away at it with a 30/30
> from a yard away, apparently oblivious to the ricochets.
> Some folks behave responsibly when they play with guns, many do not.  Gun
> play is the polar opposite of the type of attention and consideration of
> cause and effect often required in caving.  If you showed up for a *caving
> * trip with a gun, I would consider you a reckless dumbass.
>
> Andy
>
> Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
> 700 Billie Brooks Drive
> Driftwood, Texas 78619
> (512) 799-1095
> andy@gluesenkamp.
>
>

RE: [Texascavers] cave guns

[wesley s]

I always cave with a few flash bangs and a concussion grenade. Those snakes 
don't know what hit em! Makes quick work or constrictions too.

Wes~

List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:45:12 -0800
From: kat...@yahoo.com
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] cave guns





Though not a surprise to anyone who knows me. I definitely would not have a 
problem with someone carrying a gun with them to a cave. Would I?  Probably not 
mainly from a logistical problem. 
 
I don't think as many cavers as you think have problems with guns. I mean just 
this weekend at See my shovel I brought out a small arsenal of weapons( of 
course with the land owners blessing) and most of the cavers there had a 
blast(pun intended) with them. It was a nice after caving, pre-campfire, 
activity.
 
Guns don't kill people, people kill people using guns, knives, cars, and 
airplanes. 
 Matt Turner 



"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without 
accepting it." - Aristotle


"Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can do 
that."- Norman Vincent Peale 






From: David 
To: Cavers Texas 
Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 12:14:17 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] cave guns

Starting Monday, you will be able to take your caving guns inside
almost all federally
owned caves.  The exceptions are the tour caves.

You will need to have a concealed permit and make sure that the state
you are caving in
accepts your state's permit, or you will have to apply for a permit in
that state.

So what size gun do you pack?

A 60 caliber hand-gun would be too big for most caving packs.

A 50 caliber ought to do the trick:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9nu4csc5kbA/0.jpg


I hope you can sense that I am mocking this new
 regulation.


So let's say you in a caving group hiking to Madonna Cave and you are
all packing heat.
You get to the cave, suit up, and then what?Do you all leave your
guns in the entrance?
What if you come out of the cave to find some shady characters holding
your guns at you?
So I guess you take the guns in far enough so that that does not happen.

Can anybody think of a reason other than snakes to carry a gun on a
hike to a federally owned cave?  A bear ?  A mountain lion ?  A
wolf or coyote?  A fugitive hiding in a cave?

I think the ammunition should be carried in a separate compartment of
the back-pack, and the gun should be in a Pelican case.

I think the chances are more likely that more people are going to be
accidentally shot ( and probably kids ), than the guns being used to
defend in a situation.

I don't think cavers should carry guns on
 their hike to a
"federally-owned" cave.

But if some caver chose to do so, would he or she be, disrespected?

I would encourage any caver with me that wanted to carry a gun on the
hike, to leave it at the car and locked up.( This is all
theoretical, as I would have to be going caving! )

If he said no, then I would tell him I am not going caving.If that
failed,  then I would want to make sure the gun was hidden beyond the
twilight zone, under a rock, and covered with dirt.

I see no reason to take a gun on a short hike, like Cottonwood Cave,
or Hidden Cave?Those are BLM caves though, and all National Forest
lands have had an "open carry," policy for some time.Right?
Has that policy ever produced a gun related issue with a cave trip?

David Locklear

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[Texascavers] Fw: failure notice

[Andy Gluesenkamp]

Hey, don't get me wrong.  I like guns.  I also like drinking.  However, you 
won't catch me drinking while caving (or shooting).

Andy

Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
a...@gluesenkamp.com

--- On Mon, 2/22/10, Joe Ranzau  wrote:


From: Joe Ranzau 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] caves versus guns
To: "mark.al...@l-3com.com" 
Cc: "" , "" 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Monday, February 22, 2010, 9:22 AM



Agreed, this is a no win discussion. Move along folks... =A0Nothing to see =
here...





Joe

On Feb 22, 2010, at 9:09 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:






Uh-oh, look out!
=A0
=A0
Here we go and I'm running for cover.=A0=A0=20
=A0
=A0
=A0
(A hunkered down) Mark
=A0
=A0



From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Mon 2/22/2010 9:09 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] caves versus guns







Guns and caves don't mix.=A0 I recall a cenTex caver who was coming out of =
a cave when the landowner started shooting at a rattlesnake sitting on a le=
dge in the same sinkhole.=A0 They guy was blasting away at it with a 30/30 =
from a yard away, apparently oblivious to the ricochets.=A0=20
Some folks behave responsibly when they play with guns, many do not.=A0 Gun=
play is the polar opposite of the type of attention and consideration of c=
ause and effect often required in caving.=A0 If you showed up for a caving =
trip with a gun, I would consider you a reckless dumbass.
=A0
Andy
=A0
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
andy@gluesenkamp.
--0-808974941-1266852581=:76084
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable







Hey, don't get me wrong.  I like guns.  I also like drinking=
.  However, you won't catch me drinking while caving (or shooting).&nb=
sp; 
 
AndyAndrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.700 Billie Brooks DriveDriftwood, Texas 78619(512) 799-1095a...@gluesenkamp.com--=
- On Mon, 2/22/10, Joe Ranzau  wrote=
:
From: Joe Ranzau Sub=
ject: Re: [Texascavers] caves versus gunsTo: "mark.al...@l-3com.com" &l=
t;mark.al...@l-3com.com>Cc: "" , "" Date: Monday, February 22, 2010, 9:22 AM

Agreed, this is a no win discussion. Move along folks...  Nothing=
to see here...

Joe
On Feb 22, 2010, at 9:09 AM, http://us.mc1117.mail.yaho=
o.com/mc/compose?to=3dmark.al...@l-3com.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow=
>mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:




Uh-oh, look out!=

 
 
Here we go and I'm running for c=
over.   
 
 
 
(A hunkered down) Mark
 
 


From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_g=
luesenk...@yahoo.com]Sent: Mon 2/22/2010 9:09 AMTo: <=
A href=3D"http://us.mc1117.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dtexascavers@texas=
cavers.com" target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://us.mc1117.mail=
.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3dtexascav...@texascavers.com" target=3D_blank rel=
=3Dnofollow>texascavers@texascavers.comSubject: [Texasca=
vers] caves versus guns





Guns and caves don't mix.  I recall a cenTex caver who was coming=
out of a cave when the landowner started shooting at a rattlesnake sitting=
on a ledge in the same sinkhole.  They guy was blasting away at it wi=
th a 30/30 from a yard away, apparently oblivious to the ricochets.  <=
/DIV>
Some folks behave responsibly when they play with guns, many do not.&n=
bsp; Gun play is the polar opposite of the type of attention and considerat=
ion of cause and effect often required in caving.  If you showed up fo=
r a caving trip with a gun, I would consider you a reckless dumbas=
s.
 
Andy
 
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.700 Billie Brooks DriveDriftwood, Texas 78619(512) 799-1095andy@gluesenkamp.<=
/TR><=
/TBODY>
--0-808974941-1266852581=:76084--

Re: [Texascavers] caves versus guns

[Joe Ranzau]

Agreed, this is a no win discussion. Move along folks...  Nothing to  
see here...




Joe

On Feb 22, 2010, at 9:09 AM, mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote:


Uh-oh, look out!


Here we go and I'm running for cover.



(A hunkered down) Mark



From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Mon 2/22/2010 9:09 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] caves versus guns

Guns and caves don't mix.  I recall a cenTex caver who was coming  
out of a cave when the landowner started shooting at a rattlesnake  
sitting on a ledge in the same sinkhole.  They guy was blasting away  
at it with a 30/30 from a yard away, apparently oblivious to the  
ricochets.
Some folks behave responsibly when they play with guns, many do  
not.  Gun play is the polar opposite of the type of attention and  
consideration of cause and effect often required in caving.  If you  
showed up for a caving trip with a gun, I would consider you a  
reckless dumbass.


Andy

Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
andy@gluesenkamp.

RE: [Texascavers] caves versus guns

[Mark . Alman]

Uh-oh, look out!
 
 
Here we go and I'm running for cover.   
 
 
 
(A hunkered down) Mark
 
 



From: Andy Gluesenkamp [mailto:andrew_gluesenk...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Mon 2/22/2010 9:09 AM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] caves versus guns


Guns and caves don't mix.  I recall a cenTex caver who was coming out of a cave 
when the landowner started shooting at a rattlesnake sitting on a ledge in the 
same sinkhole.  They guy was blasting away at it with a 30/30 from a yard away, 
apparently oblivious to the ricochets.  
Some folks behave responsibly when they play with guns, many do not.  Gun play 
is the polar opposite of the type of attention and consideration of cause and 
effect often required in caving.  If you showed up for a caving trip with a 
gun, I would consider you a reckless dumbass.
 
Andy
 
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
andy@gluesenkamp.

texascavers Digest 22 Feb 2010 15:09:55 -0000 Issue 980

[texascavers-digest-help]

texascavers Digest 22 Feb 2010 15:09:55 - Issue 980

Topics (messages 13784 through 13797):

foremost caver
13784 by: Mixon Bill
13793 by: Don Cooper

Re: cave guns
13785 by: Matt Turner
13786 by: Mark Minton
13787 by: Linda Palit
13788 by: Fofo
13789 by: Don Arburn
13790 by: JerryAtkin.aol.com
13791 by: Allan Cobb
13792 by: Pete Lindsley
13794 by: Rod Goke
13795 by: tbsamsel.verizon.net

Thanks, Pete
13796 by: speleosteele.tx.rr.com

caves versus guns
13797 by: Andy Gluesenkamp

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
David, I actually followed one of your links. Nobody claimed the  
person was _the_ state's "foremost caver." The article merely said he  
was _one of_ Alaska's foremost cavers. That could mean anything,  
especially considering how many cavers there are in Alaska. I could  
come up with names of dozens of Texas "foremost cavers." -- Mixon


All the world’s a stage, but the play is badly cast.

You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought Foremost was pretty good milk.

-WaV

On Sun, Feb 21, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Mixon Bill  wrote:

> David, I actually followed one of your links. Nobody claimed the person was
> _the_ state's "foremost caver." The article merely said he was _one of_
> Alaska's foremost cavers. That could mean anything, especially considering
> how many cavers there are in Alaska. I could come up with names of dozens of
> Texas "foremost cavers." -- Mixon
> 
> All the world’s a stage, but the play is badly cast.
> 
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
>
>
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Though not a surprise to anyone who knows me. I definitely would not have a 
problem with someone carrying a gun with them to a cave. Would I?  Probably not 
mainly from a logistical problem. 

I don't think as many cavers as you think have problems with guns. I mean just 
this weekend at See my shovel I brought out a small arsenal of weapons( of 
course with the land owners blessing) and most of the cavers there had a 
blast(pun intended) with them. It was a nice after caving, pre-campfire, 
activity.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people using guns, knives, cars, and 
airplanes. 
 Matt Turner 


"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without 
accepting it." - Aristotle


"Empty pockets never held anyone back.Only empty heads and empty hearts can do 
that."- Norman Vincent Peale 





From: David 
To: Cavers Texas 
Sent: Sun, February 21, 2010 12:14:17 AM
Subject: [Texascavers] cave guns

Starting Monday, you will be able to take your caving guns inside
almost all federally
owned caves.  The exceptions are the tour caves.

You will need to have a concealed permit and make sure that the state
you are caving in
accepts your state's permit, or you will have to apply for a permit in
that state.

So what size gun do you pack?

A 60 caliber hand-gun would be too big for most caving packs.

A 50 caliber ought to do the trick:

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9nu4csc5kbA/0.jpg


I hope you can sense that I am mocking this new regulation.


So let's say you in a caving group hiking to Madonna Cave and you are
all packing heat.
You get to the cave, suit up, and then what?    Do you all leave your
guns in the entrance?
What if you come out of the cave to find some shady characters holding
your guns at you?
So I guess you take the guns in far enough so that that does not happen.

Can anybody think of a reason other than snakes to carry a gun on a
hike to a federally owned cave?  A bear ?  A mountain lion ?  A
wolf or coyote?  A fugitive hiding in a cave?

I think the ammunition should be carried in a separate compartment of
the back-pack, and the gun should be in a Pelican case.

I think the chances are more likely that more people are going to be
accidentally shot ( and probably kids ), than the guns being used to
defend in a situation.

I don't think cavers should carry guns on their hike to a
"federally

[Texascavers] caves versus guns

[Andy Gluesenkamp]

Guns and caves don't mix.  I recall a cenTex caver who was coming out of a cave 
when the landowner started shooting at a rattlesnake sitting on a ledge in the 
same sinkhole.  They guy was blasting away at it with a 30/30 from a yard away, 
apparently oblivious to the ricochets.  
Some folks behave responsibly when they play with guns, many do not.  Gun play 
is the polar opposite of the type of attention and consideration of cause and 
effect often required in caving.  If you showed up for a caving trip with a 
gun, I would consider you a reckless dumbass.
 
Andy
 
Andrew G. Gluesenkamp, Ph.D.
700 Billie Brooks Drive
Driftwood, Texas 78619
(512) 799-1095
andy@gluesenkamp.

[Texascavers] Thanks, Pete

[speleosteele]

Thanks, Pete, for one of the most interesting postings in a while.

And it makes me shudder to think of the small places in Powell's Cave I've
squeezed into head first. But of course I was always listening for that 
familiar rattling sound.

A snake that doesn't rattle, and is extremely poisonous, is the fer-de-lance
(Bothrops asper) of Mexico. I've had some close calls with it in cave 
entrances. 

Bill


 Pete Lindsley  wrote: 
> Well, actually I have seen a few rattlers in caves and they  
> occasionally rattled me a bit. Reloaders know that you can substitute  
> #9 shot for the single big bullet and make your own loads like  
> Ronnie's wax bullets. (Commercial "Rat shot" in a .22 rimfire doesn't  
> do much and only makes them mad.) I recall one large rattler (~6 feet 
> +) that the rancher shot with his shotgun, not far from a tight crawl  
> way crack we were digging one day in central TX. Another time "well  
> back" into Powell's I crawled up a breakdown slope and backed off from  
> a sleeping, coiled rattler. That snake was about 3" in diameter and we  
> detoured our upstream exploration of the water passage through a  
> nearby bypass where we had to belly through a low dig in the flowing  
> water. Some caves are just snake dens and I can recall at least two  
> that we never checked out because they were just too full of rattlers.  
> We returned to one of those in the dead of winter and pitched in some  
> stones to the tune of many rattles; we let the snakes keep their den.
> 
> Alan mentioned the AZ folks like to "carry". Four of us from TX  
> observed that as well when camping at a location not to speak of when  
> several cans were "plugged" by the locals.
> 
> Several times when we took scout groups to River Styx we were always  
> very careful to scope out the upper entrance because more than once we  
> found snakes just inside. One time when half the group was just inside  
> the entrance and the other half was outside, a curious rattler (small,  
> ~ 2 feet) crawled out to see if he heard dinner in his cave. We  
> carefully boarded him up with sticks and small rocks while the rest of  
> the scouts and leaders quietly crawled past the viper. We always  
> enjoyed telling each group to watch for "Bubba", a six footer Butch  
> Fralia had reported seeing numerous times not far from the entrance we  
> were using.
> 
>   - Pete
> 
> On Feb 21, 2010, at 8:08 PM, Mark Minton wrote:
> 
> While it might conceivably be useful to carry a gun _to_ a cave  
> entrance (although not in my personal 40+ years experience), I cannot  
> see any reason at all to carry a gun _into_ a cave. Firing a gun in a  
> cave would risk serious personal injury due to the dangers of  
> ricochet, not to mention that there is very likely nothing in a cave  
> that would be threatening enough to warrant having a gun. Anything  
> worthy of a gun would be obvious almost immediately, like a bear or a  
> lion, and there would likely be plenty of advance warning (like scat  
> or remains of prey) so that one could get away before needing to fire.  
> Except for some possibly extreme situations, this is a ridiculous  
> concept.
> 
> Mark Minton
> 
> 
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Re: Re: [Texascavers] Re: cave guns

[tbsamsel]

The Ruritanian Müsli-Kreppendorfer in 16.5 mm is preferred in some speleo circles.
 
R RassendyllFeb 21, 2010 09:51:08 PM, a...@oztotl.com wrote:
 
I have been caving in Arizona with cavers who carried guns while caving.  It seems that other cavers are not too friendly to cavers they find in those caves that no one speaks of.  Hopefully Texas won't get that way.  
 
Um, actually, I have never been caving in Arizona because they have no caves!  ;-)
 
Allan

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