Re: [Texascavers] TCMA Board Members

[Gregg Williams]

If yall need some help running the election itself I'll be glad to do it
again

On Tue, Sep 7, 2021, 8:01 PM Linda Palit  wrote:

> TCMA is looking for a few dedicated cavers that want to give back to the
> caving community. It is time for our board elections, and we need
> candidates.  It has been a hard two years, and normal or not we need to
> take care of TCMA business and need help doing so.  Send nominations to me,
> or contact the potential candidate yourself and let me know they are
> interested.
> Messenger or email is fine for me.
>
> And thanks,
> Linda
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[Texascavers] 2021 Board of Directors Election Results

[Gregg Williams]

Please take a moment to congratulate your latest additions to the TCMA
Board of Directors. There were 6 nominations for 5 positions and with 29%
reporting the results are the following.

Linda Palit - 53 votes
Greg Mosier - 50 votes
Andy Edwards - 43 votes
Jim Kennedy - 42 votes
Ben Dau - 39 votes
Rob Bisset - 32 votes

Please welcome Jim and Ben to the board and thank Linda, Greg,and Andy for
their continued service.

Gregg Williams
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[Texascavers] TCMA Board elections live right now

[Gregg Williams]

Are you a TCMA member? Go look in your email for your chance to vote for
your 2021 TCMA Board of Directors

Did you let your membership dues lapse this year or just want to join so
you can vote? It's not too late. Get over to tcmacaves.org/join
<https://www.tcmacaves.org/join>/ and get renewed or signed up. If you
don't wait until the last minute you should receive a ballot for this year.
If you make sure to click the auto renew or sign up for sustaining donats
at tcmacaves.org/donate/ <https://www.tcmacaves.org/donate/> for at least
$5/ month you will never have to worry about your dues again.

Go vote or sign up and have your voice heard for the benefit of caves and
karst in Texas!

Cheers,
Gregg Williams
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[Texascavers] Ezell's work day this Saturday at 9am!

[Gregg Williams]

Address: 1500 Brown St. San Marcos TX

March 7th @ 9am

It looks like things are shaping up nicely for a day of fun. If you have
already contacted me about coming to the cleanup day, THANKS! If you have
been on the fence or wanting your presence to be a surprise wait no more,
surprise me now.  Let me know you are coming so I can plan to have cold
drinks for enough folks and order enough pizza.

DID I JUST SAY PIZZA?! You bet I did. I am not too good to resort to good
ol' fashioned bribery.

Please bring any kind of tools you have too. Loppers, chainsaw, gloves,
weed whacker, etc will all be needed. A couple shovels and hoes would also
be welcomed.

Give me a call or email me if you are planning to come and haven't let me
know yet. If you have and are not going to be able to make it please also
let me know.

Gregg and Dave
210.601.9649
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[Texascavers] March 7th Ezell's Work Day

[Gregg Williams]

Dave and I are putting together a work day at the Ezell's Cave Preserve in
San Marcos on Saturday March 7th at 9am. This work day will be subject to
cancellation if the weather does not cooperate.

We will need folks to patrol the property for litter, help do some light
yard work, and tree trimming. Please bring any weed whackers, chainsaws,
gloves, shovels, etc you have to help get some stuff done. The big project
of the day will be to remove a couch and other odds and ends left by what
is likely some kids. I will need to have someone that can bring a trailer
to get this done, please let me know if you have one and can bring it to
haul this stuff off.

I will be bringing some cold beverages and will probably plan to order some
pizzas or something like that for whoever comes out. Please contact me
directly to confirm that you are coming.

Thanks,
Gregg Williams
Dave Adamoski
210.601.9649
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Re: [Texascavers] Archival epoxy

[Gregg Williams]

Whats the reasoning behind using archival epoxy for cave restoration? Do
regular epoxies discolor or otherwise damage the rock?

On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 9:55 AM Robert B  wrote:

> Tom,
> is this for cave restoration???
> If yes, maybe a larger search area within our community... such as Cavers
> of Facebook or Cavechat.
>
> On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 9:38 PM tom rogers 
> wrote:
>
>> I'm  looking for recommendations on where to get archival epoxy i.e epon
>> 828 and curing agent.
>> Or if anyone has some they would donate. I don't  need very much.
>> Thanks
>> Tom Rogers
>>
>> Get Outlook for Android 
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[Texascavers] Bounced emails

[Gregg Williams]

We have a few bounced emails for folks that we would like to send a ballot
to. Please contact me off list if you are on the list below or you know a
good email address for someone listed.

Greissel, Sylvia
Hoese, Geoffrey
McAdoo, David
Wessel, Roy

Voting closes October 20th at 5pm, vote soon!

Gregg
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[Texascavers] TCMA election is live

[Gregg Williams]

Please take a look at your inbox for your chance to vote in the 2020 TCMA
Board of Directors election. If you are a current member you should have a
ballot at this time. If you are a member in good standing and do not see
your ballot check your SPAM folder and if it is not there please let me
know.

Vote early, vote often!

Gregg Williams
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[Texascavers] 2018 TCMA Board of Directors election

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

The elections for the 2018 Board of Directors will be taking place starting
at midnight tonight. Check your email for your chance to weigh in.

Since they were delayed a little by some technical difficulties voting will
be available until December 1st. Please see our website for the candidate
bios and everything else important going on in the TCMA

https://www.tcmacaves.org/
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Re: [Texascavers] Midnight Cave -- Lower Entrance

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

This has not happened to my knowledge but has been discussed as an
alternative for at least one cave recently.

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 10:23 AM, Bill Steele via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:

> Has TCMA ever leased a cave?
>
> On Nov 6, 2017, at 10:07 AM, Gregg Williams via Texascavers <
> texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>
> That's a great idea Bill. The TCMA has committed itself to building a
> strong organizational foundation so it can, in the future, partner with
> organizations to purchase large tracts with caves. Midnight cave is located
> on a very large ranch and big purchases like that are not within the scope
> of the TCMA at this time.
>
> Currently the TCMA is actively engaged in the purchase of property with
> the TSS to house the yet unnamed Texas caving headquarters. While there
> isn't a cave on the property and it is a little less exciting the purchase
> will give a permanent home to Texas caving and it's assets and archives.
> This will also mean that the TSS's archives will be more easily accessed by
> cavers so they can find that new big project or get  their new discoveries
> recorded for posterity.
>
>  Also, as far as I know there is no reason to believe the ranch Midnight
> is on is for sale at this time.
>
> Gregg
>
> On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 9:11 AM, Bill Steele via Texascavers <
> texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>
>> How about the TCMA acquiring Midnight Cave and more caves for caving?
>>
>> On Nov 6, 2017, at 9:06 AM, Scott C  wrote:
>>
>> I totally agree with Gregg. This is real caving stuff that is interesting
>> :) Thanks for sharing!
>>
>> Scott Cogburn
>> GHG
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Nov 6, 2017, at 8:41 AM, Gregg Williams via Texascavers <
>> texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>>
>> This sort of stuff is what this email list should have more of.
>>
>> Gregg
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 9:27 AM, James Jasek via Texascavers <
>> texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Great story
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhoneiPhone
>>>
>>> On Nov 5, 2017, at 9:21 AM, Logan McNatt via Texascavers <
>>> texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> In Carl's message about digging open the lower entrance from inside
>>> Midnight Cave, he didn't mention what happened next--one of many stories in
>>> the lore of the Carta Valley cavers.
>>>
>>> Carl's original version is in the chapter on Midnight Cave in his *50
>>> Years of Texas Caving* pp. 458-467.
>>> It is better than my synopsis below.
>>>
>>> LowGun
>>>
>>> The successful dig gave Carl Kunath, Ron Bridgemon, Chuck Pease, and
>>> Nick Lucas a rare opportunity to play a devilish trick on the other two
>>> members of the team. Jan and Orion Knox were at the back of the cave where
>>> they had pushed through the tortuous Corkscrew into a significant
>>> unexplored section of the cave.
>>>
>>> The dig crew exited the new entrance, walked over to the pit entrance,
>>> and pulled up the rope. They reentered through the lower entrance and met
>>> up with Jan and Orion, who were not told of the discovery. Arriving at the
>>> bottom of the pit entrance to find no rope, the conspirators feigned dismay
>>> and consternation, but were disappointed at the calm reaction of Jan and
>>> Orion. A brief quest for another way out surprised them with sunlight
>>> coming through the new entrance.
>>> ___
>>> Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com
>>> Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/te
>>> xascav...@texascavers.com/
>>> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
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>> __

Re: [Texascavers] Midnight Cave -- Lower Entrance

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

That's a great idea Bill. The TCMA has committed itself to building a
strong organizational foundation so it can, in the future, partner with
organizations to purchase large tracts with caves. Midnight cave is located
on a very large ranch and big purchases like that are not within the scope
of the TCMA at this time.

Currently the TCMA is actively engaged in the purchase of property with the
TSS to house the yet unnamed Texas caving headquarters. While there isn't a
cave on the property and it is a little less exciting the purchase will
give a permanent home to Texas caving and it's assets and archives. This
will also mean that the TSS's archives will be more easily accessed by
cavers so they can find that new big project or get  their new discoveries
recorded for posterity.

 Also, as far as I know there is no reason to believe the ranch Midnight is
on is for sale at this time.

Gregg

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 9:11 AM, Bill Steele via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:

> How about the TCMA acquiring Midnight Cave and more caves for caving?
>
> On Nov 6, 2017, at 9:06 AM, Scott C  wrote:
>
> I totally agree with Gregg. This is real caving stuff that is interesting
> :) Thanks for sharing!
>
> Scott Cogburn
> GHG
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Nov 6, 2017, at 8:41 AM, Gregg Williams via Texascavers <
> texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>
> This sort of stuff is what this email list should have more of.
>
> Gregg
>
> On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 9:27 AM, James Jasek via Texascavers <
> texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>
>> Great story
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhoneiPhone
>>
>> On Nov 5, 2017, at 9:21 AM, Logan McNatt via Texascavers <
>> texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>>
>> In Carl's message about digging open the lower entrance from inside
>> Midnight Cave, he didn't mention what happened next--one of many stories in
>> the lore of the Carta Valley cavers.
>>
>> Carl's original version is in the chapter on Midnight Cave in his *50
>> Years of Texas Caving* pp. 458-467.
>> It is better than my synopsis below.
>>
>> LowGun
>>
>> The successful dig gave Carl Kunath, Ron Bridgemon, Chuck Pease, and Nick
>> Lucas a rare opportunity to play a devilish trick on the other two members
>> of the team. Jan and Orion Knox were at the back of the cave where they had
>> pushed through the tortuous Corkscrew into a significant unexplored section
>> of the cave.
>>
>> The dig crew exited the new entrance, walked over to the pit entrance,
>> and pulled up the rope. They reentered through the lower entrance and met
>> up with Jan and Orion, who were not told of the discovery. Arriving at the
>> bottom of the pit entrance to find no rope, the conspirators feigned dismay
>> and consternation, but were disappointed at the calm reaction of Jan and
>> Orion. A brief quest for another way out surprised them with sunlight
>> coming through the new entrance.
>> ___
>> Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com
>> Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/te
>> xascav...@texascavers.com/
>> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
>>
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>> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
>>
>>
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Re: [Texascavers] Midnight Cave -- Lower Entrance

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

This sort of stuff is what this email list should have more of.

Gregg

On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 9:27 AM, James Jasek via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:

> Great story
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhoneiPhone
>
> On Nov 5, 2017, at 9:21 AM, Logan McNatt via Texascavers <
> texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>
> In Carl's message about digging open the lower entrance from inside
> Midnight Cave, he didn't mention what happened next--one of many stories in
> the lore of the Carta Valley cavers.
>
> Carl's original version is in the chapter on Midnight Cave in his *50
> Years of Texas Caving* pp. 458-467.
> It is better than my synopsis below.
>
> LowGun
>
> The successful dig gave Carl Kunath, Ron Bridgemon, Chuck Pease, and Nick
> Lucas a rare opportunity to play a devilish trick on the other two members
> of the team. Jan and Orion Knox were at the back of the cave where they had
> pushed through the tortuous Corkscrew into a significant unexplored section
> of the cave.
>
> The dig crew exited the new entrance, walked over to the pit entrance, and
> pulled up the rope. They reentered through the lower entrance and met up
> with Jan and Orion, who were not told of the discovery. Arriving at the
> bottom of the pit entrance to find no rope, the conspirators feigned dismay
> and consternation, but were disappointed at the calm reaction of Jan and
> Orion. A brief quest for another way out surprised them with sunlight
> coming through the new entrance.
> ___
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> texascavers@texascavers.com/
> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
>
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[Texascavers] TCMA Members Meeting Reminder

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

Just a quick reminder that there will be a TCMA members meeting this coming
*SATURDAY * morning at 9am during TCR. We will meet at the patio to the
left of the main lodge house.

I was going to attempt to get electronic copies of the agenda out, but
there isn't a good way to send this out. I will bring some copies to the
meeting and we can share

Gregg
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[Texascavers] TCMA members meeting at TCR

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

There will be a members meeting at TCR Saturday morning, 9 am . Members
will meet at the patio to the side of the main building, bring a chair. The
TCMA will also have a fundraiser breakfast on Sunday morning, time TBA.

Gregg
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[Texascavers] Link to the donation page

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

Please follow the link below for the Harvey donation page

https://www.tcmacaves.org/fundraising/hurricaneharvey


Thanks,

Gregg
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[Texascavers] Harvey Relief

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

Even though the rains in Houston have taken a brake, there is still a long
way to go to dig out of the mess Harvey has made of the Texas coast. Let's
all come together as the family of cavers we are and lend a helping hand to
the folks who are in need right now.

Please take a few minutes reach deep and give what you can . Remember, you
can ear mark those donations to a specific caver family if you already have
someone in mind to help out.

If you can't give money, consider giving your time. Rockport, Port Aransas,
Houston, and many other communities are in shambles. I've rarely seen a
group of folks work harder than cavers to reach a goal. Getting these
communities back on their feet is a lofty one but it's doable with us all
working together.

Gregg
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[Texascavers] Hurricane Harvey Relief

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

Cavers and friends -

Our Texas Gulf Coast Caver family is being greatly impacted by Hurricane
Harvey.  Despite cavers being a resilient and well prepared bunch, Harvey
is likely to overwhelm many of them through sheer brute force.  Those of us
fortunate enough not to be severely impacted are already looking for ways
we may help.

Many have graciously opened our homes to folks that evacuated.  It's* not
yet safe *to travel east with supplies and tools to aid in the clean up.
In the interim, we should start preparing to help out as each of us is
able.  For many, the most significant impact we can have is through
financial giving.

The *TCMA is raising funds* for impacted cavers through a dedicated on-line
platform.  All money raised will be tracked separately, does not go towards
other TCMA activities and will be disbursed via a committee to impacted
cavers.  Should you know of a caver already in need, you may earmark your
donated funds for them. A few folks have already confirmed their houses are
flooded and several are likely to be out of work during the long recovery
period.



*DONATION LINK *

*If you were impacted by Hurricane Harvey and need assistance, please email
us at donati...@tcmacaves.org .*

Should you wish to donate outside of the caver family or to the broader
recovery efforts, please consider giving to a national disaster response
group.

The costs in property lost won't be known for many weeks.  While we wait
for the storm to clear we can prepare to assist when it is safe to do so.
We will report back on our efforts frequently and disburse all funds raised
as quickly and as prudently as possible.

Cavingly,

TCMA Officers and Board of Directors
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[Texascavers] TCMA happenings at the TSA Convention this weekend

[Gregg Williams]

The TSA convention is fast approaching and it's really looking like it's
going to be a great one!

After dinner Saturday afternoon and following some announcements from the
TSA folks the TCMA big auction will take place. A silent auction will also
be running all day. Make sure you stick around for the entire auction
because there is going to be a very big and exciting announcement and a
couple very special auction items at the close of the evening.

The TCMA will be hosting a delicious breakfast for donation on Sunday
morning at 8 am, huge thanks to Ellie Watson for taking the lead on that.
After everyone is filled up on yummy breakfast there will be a TCMA meeting
for all members to attend and hear what your organization has been up to
for the last year.

I look forward to seeing everyone this weekend!


Gregg Williams
TCMA President
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[Texascavers] 2017 TCMA board of Directors election

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

Please take a minute and submit your ballot for the 2017 Board of
Directors. Remember voting ends at midnight November 25th. Don't wait until
it's to late to make your choice known. Vote early, vote often!

Gregg Williams
TCMA VP
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Re: [Texascavers] Bats can fly horizontally at 100mph

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

If a Trump can be a president a bird can be whatever it wants to be...

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 1:37 PM, Katherine Arens via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:

> and "dive" ≠ horizontal   ;-)  (just us humanists being literal . . . )
> -katie arens  ar...@austin.utexas.edu
>
> On Nov 10, 2016, at 12:56 PM, Gregg Williams via Texascavers <
> texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>
> John, I don't think you can call them the fastest moving mammal since the
> Peregrine falcon dives at around 200 mph. I guess you could argue that the
> falcon isn't really propelling itself at 200 mph and just really good at
> falling fast.
>
> Gregg
>
> On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Jon Cradit via Texascavers <
> texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>
>> At that speed wouldn’t they also be the fastest moving mammal too.
>>
> [...]
>
> ] *On Behalf Of *Lee H. Skinner via Texascavers
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 10, 2016 11:29 AM
>> *To:* SWR Mailing List ; texascavers list <
>> texascavers@texascavers.com>; Sandia Grotto 
>> *Subject:* [Texascavers] Bats can fly horizontally at 100mph
>> Scientists studying the flight of Brazilian free-tailed bats have clocked
>> the creatures zipping along at 160 km/h (100 mph), making them the fastest
>> horizontal flyers in the entire animal kingdom.
>>
>>
>>
> 
> Katherine Arens Office Phones: (512) 232-6363
> ar...@austin.utexas.edu Dept. Phone:  (512) 471-4123
> Dept. of Germanic Studies FAX (512) 471-4025
> 2505 University Ave, C3300  Bldg.Location:  Burdine 336
> University of Texas at Austin Office:  Burdine 320
> Austin, TX  78712-1802
>
>   -. .-
>  _..-'()`-.._
>  ./'. '||\\.(\_/) .//||` .`\.
>   ./'.|'.'\\|..)O O(..|//`.`|.`\.
> ./'..|'.|| |\`` '`" '` ''''''/| ||.`|..`\.
>   ./'.||'. .  .  .`||.`\.
>  /'|||'.|| {   } ||.`|||`\
> '.|||'.||| {   } |||.`|||.`
> '.||| | |/'   ``\||`` ''||/''   `\| | |||.`
>  |/' \./' `\./\!|\   /|!/\./' `\./ `\|
> V  VV}' `\ /' `{V   VV
>  ``` V ' ' '
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Bats can fly horizontally at 100mph

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

John, I don't think you can call them the fastest moving mammal since the
Peregrine falcon dives at around 200 mph. I guess you could argue that the
falcon isn't really propelling itself at 200 mph and just really good at
falling fast.

Gregg

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 11:52 AM, Jon Cradit via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:

> At that speed wouldn’t they also be the fastest moving mammal too.
>
>
>
>
>
> [image:
> http://www.edwardsaquifer.org/signature/images/eaa_20-years_logo.jpg.gif]
>
> [image:
> http://www.edwardsaquifer.org/signature/images/EAA-Signature_02.gif]
>
> [image:
> http://www.edwardsaquifer.org/signature/images/EAA-Signature_03.gif]
>
>
>
>
>
> *Jon Cradit, P.G., R.S.*
> Geologist – Aquifer Protection
>
>
>
> 900 E. Quincy | San Antonio, TX 78215
> tel: 210-222-2204, ext. 323
>
>
>
> *jcra...@edwardsaquifer.org *
> www.edwardsaquifer.org
>
>
>
> [image: http://www.edwardsaquifer.org/signature/images/eaa_facebook.gif]
> <https://www.facebook.com/edwards.aquifer.education/?sk=wall>
>
> [image: http://www.edwardsaquifer.org/signature/images/eaa_twitter.gif]
> <http://twitter.com/EdwardsAquifer>
>
> [image:
> http://www.edwardsaquifer.org/signature/images/EAA-Signature_07.gif]
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] *On
> Behalf Of *Lee H. Skinner via Texascavers
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 10, 2016 11:29 AM
> *To:* SWR Mailing List ; texascavers list <
> texascavers@texascavers.com>; Sandia Grotto 
> *Subject:* [Texascavers] Bats can fly horizontally at 100mph
>
>
>
> Scientists studying the flight of Brazilian free-tailed bats have clocked
> the creatures zipping along at 160 km/h (100 mph), making them the fastest
> horizontal flyers in the entire animal kingdom.
>
>
>
> http://bit.ly/2eWg5TQ
>
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[Texascavers] 2017 Board of Directors Election ***LIVE NOW***

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

I for got to post the notice below to CaveTex last night, but here it is.
If you have received a ballot you have until the 12:00 am November 25 to
vote. If you have not received a ballot you are either not a paid member or
you are one of the emails below that bounced. If your email is below please
contact me off list with corrections or an alternate email.


donna...@aol.com


texascavesaus...@aol.com


rkeol...@swbell.net


rc...@comcast.net


llh...@student.uintx.edu


kmmando_ke...@yahoo.com


fernando.hernan...@austintexas.com


brewsky...@aol.com



Thanks,


Gregg Williams

gr...@oztotl.com



---


Dear Members,



It is time for the annual Board Election for the TCMA. The Nominations
Committee has nominated three candidates for the upcoming election. These
candidates offer a wide range of caving and professional experiences to
contribute to the Board.



Elections will be held via an electronic voting system. A current TCMA
membership, in good standing, will be necessary to vote in the election.
In the near future; a link to an online ballot will be sent to current
members.



The TCMA invites you to renew your membership if it has expired and to
consider an additional donation to further cave conservation in Texas.



TCMA is actively working to protect caves, karst and to improve our
existing Preserves. In addition, our Acquisition Committee is continually
looking at new caves and property that fits our mission. In the past year,
the TCMA acquired Avery Ranch Cave and is developing a management plan for
this unique resource. Robber Baron Preserve in San Antonio is now open as a
neighborhood park and educational resource with an informational kiosk
about Robber Baron, TCMA, and caves in general.  Likewise, Punkin' Cave and
Deep Cave, Whirlpool Cave are open for recreational caving.



We appreciate your past support and need your support now more than ever as
we look to protect more Texas caves for cavers. For more information on
TCMA’s Preserves and recent activities, including downloadable copies of
our newsletter, the *TCMA Passages*, please visit our website,
*www.tcmacaves.org
<http://www.tcmacaves.org/>*. Please check your membership information in
the red box below and renew your membership and/or donation by going to our
website. If you would prefer not to receive further letters, please notify
us by letter or electronic mail.






*Election Procedures*



You will be able to vote electronically. Elections will open tomorrow
November 5 2016 and will close at 12:00 am November 25. Results will be
announced (published) on or before November 27 unless a tie occurs, in
which case, a tie-breaker procedure will be initiated.



Please contact us at nominati...@tcmacaves.org if you have any questions.



Sincerely,



Galan Falgout,

Nominations Committee Chair
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[Texascavers] **IMPORTANT** - TCMA members meeting Saturday

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

Due to some scheduling conflicts the TCMA will be moving it's traditional
Sunday members meeting time slot to Saturday morning. Be sure to come and
see what YOUR organization is up to

We will be meeting at 9 AM at the concreted patio area at the end of the
main building. If you need more information about the meeting time or have
any questions please contact me off list.

Gregg Williams
TCMA VP
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[Texascavers] Cascade Caverns GM Position

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

Begin Forwarded Message:

A short term Summer position would be considered as well as someone looking
for full time work

General Manager

DESCRIPTION

At Cascade Caverns, the oldest solution cave attraction in Texas, we are
seeking a General

Manager to work at our 103-acre park in Boerne, Texas. Compensation based
on experience.

DUTIES

As the General Manager, you will be primarily responsible for daily cave
tour operations and

also campground and gift shop management. Specific tasks will include but
not be limited to:

- Scheduling tour guide work and vacation days;

- Interviewing, hiring and training tour guides when owner is unavailable;

- Overseeing camper forms and paperwork;

- Overseeing and reconciling daily cash register closeouts;

- Managing gift shop inventory, merchandising and pricing;

- Assigning and assisting employees (tour guides) with light maintenance
projects

(bathroom cleaning, gift shop stocking, mowing/weed eating, trash can
emptying, etc.);

- Monitoring lighting, wastewater and water systems in the cave and the
park;

- Other various duties and tasks.

QUALIFICATIONS

- High School diploma or GED (college coursework or degree a plus);

- Must have bank account, driver’s license and personal transportation;

- Must like to work, be self-organized, mature and motivated;

- Must be able to walk up-and- down long flights of stairs;

- Prior exposure to the leisure, recreation or tourism/travel industry is a
plus;

- Mechanical ability a plus. Military experience a plus.

Please contact us initially by e-mail and include a resume. If we feel
there’s a match, we’ll invite

you out to the Caverns for a tour. We look forward to meeting you. This job
starts ASAP and

has a 90-day trial period. Must be able to pass a background check.

Call (703) 785-7953 or e-mail lbk...@cascadecaverns.com .
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Re: [Texascavers] Dr. Michael Campana will speak on April 8 as the 20th Edwards Aquifer Authority Distinguished Lecturer

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

Sounds like a good talk. I'll take a flyer

On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Geary Schindel via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:

> Folks,
>
> I'm pleased to announce that Dr. Michael Campana, Professor of
> Hydrogeology and Water Resources Manager at Oregon State University will be
> the next Edwards Aquifer Authority Distinguished Lecturer. The title of the
> lecture is "A Water Wonk's World." Some of the topics to be covered include
> Modeling of the Edwards Aquifer in 1975, Mississippi-Memphis Supreme Court
> Battle, Transboundary Water Resources, and Hydrophilanthropy. To receive a
> flyer on the presentation detailing registration information, you can email
> me at gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org
> or you can visit the Edwards Aquifer Authority web page at
> www.edwardsaquifer.org
>
> Remember seating is limited so register early.
>
> Hope to see you there.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Geary Schindel
> Edwards Aquifer Authority
> San Antonio, Texas
> 210.222.2204 office
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Water Filter for Toxic Metals

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

I like the Saywer Mini filter (filter link, click here
<https://sawyer.com/products/sawyer-mini-filter/>). This thing is tiny and
the whole sha-bang fits in a Nalgene bottle. It's filter is rated to 0.1
micron absolute which is enough to filter all your protozoan (giardia and
cryptosporidium) and bacterial bugs(salmonella, cholera and E.coli). For
the heavy metal contamination you would need activated carbon. The amount
that is removed by the carbon is directly proportional to the amount of
time the water is in contact with the carbon. If the water is heavily
contaminated by metals you might want to just find another source if
possible.

Gregg


On Fri, Nov 6, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Robert B via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:

> I just want to do my part to ensure my caver fiends good health.
>
> Question...
> Can anybody recommend a portable - medium capacity (20 gal/day) water
> filter that can remove toxic metals such as lead, arsenic mercury. Those
> metals typically found in mines.
>
> The specifications listed for typical water filters leaves a bit to be
> desired when it comes to metals.
>
> Would using two types of filtration systems work better. A typical
> backpacking filter followed by a run through activated charcoal. ???
>
> Can the water found in the mines at Minas Viejas be filtered adequately
> for drinking by large group of cavers.
>
> Other considerations? Advice?
>
> Thanks
> Rob
>
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[Texascavers] Jewel Cave

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

Jewel Cave is now over 175 miles long and still going, amazing!

http://cavingnews.com/20150221-jewel-cave-surpasses-175-miles-in-length


Seen on http://www.reddit.com/r/caving/
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Re: [Texascavers] Devils River State Natural Area trip anouncement - November 8-9, 2014 :

[Gregg Williams via Texascavers]

Please put me on the list if there is still room

Gregg Williams
Bexar Grotto
210.601.9649

On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 6:38 AM, Nancy Weaver via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:

> I’m interested.  Nancy nan...@prismnet.com
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Re: [Texascavers] Re: black bear remains in Texas caves

[Gregg Williams]

We found a set of scratches was found in the Helictite room on a survey
trip last year. They were quite large and had a span of about 4 feet or so,
but if they were bear scratches I will leave up to the experrts.

Gregg


On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 2:16 PM, Pete Lindsley  wrote:

> The skull collected (with permission of Mr. Loys Newman) from Deep Cave
> was delivered to Bob Slaughter, Schuler Museum at SMU in Dallas. Slaughter
> reported that this particular individual, approximately dated ca.
> 1900-1920, placed very high on the then current Boone & Crocket list of
> large bears killed in the 20th century. The other bones from this
> individual were left in place in the cave. Numerous bear scratches are
> still visible in the upper parts of Deep Cave, including small ones which
> suggests a family of black bears lived in the cave in the early 1900's.
>
>  - Pete
>
> On Jan 4, 2014, at 10:39 AM, Logan McNatt wrote:
>
>  In 1963, cavers including Pete Lindsley and Preston McMichael
> collected a black bear skull and bones from Deep Cave . . .  (photo by Pete
> on p. 284)
>
>

[Texascavers] radioactive

[Gregg]

I wouldn't be surprised if just about everything from the Earth's crust 
has some low but significant amount of radioactivity.  This would be 
less true of soils, since they have had a chance to eradiate into the 
air, which in turn has a chance of bleeding it off into space.  The 
point is that you have a small amount of long half-life radioactives 
like uranium in rocks, but the by-products of decay (electrons, 
neutrons, and alpha particles) have a small chance to make neighboring 
nuclei radioactive, and they have really short mean free paths in solid 
rock.  I imagine short half-life "hot" nuclei like Cesium 137 are good 
absorbers of some product of another decay.  Our helium comes from 
radioactive decay. 

What this all means is that we should expect to see some radioactivity 
in a lot of different minerals.  It is responsible for a significant 
part of the cancer base rate (the rate excluding human-made or augmented 
risk factors like smoking.)  It can be concentrated in the home by 
choosing building materials that contain more radioactive minerals.  If 
you wanted to be very adventurous, you could build your house from 
pitchblende or some other uranium ore.  You can probably reduce risk 
some by lining the inside of your radioactive walls with non-radioactive 
material.  This would block most or all particulate emission, even if 
the buffer were only a millimeter thick.  Decay products like radon 
would still have to go somewhere, but at least you wouldn't be getting 
bombarded by high speed electrons or helium nuclei coming from your 
walls.  Properly constructed, your wall might vent all radioisotope 
gasses outside, but you'd still get some from the ambient air.  If you 
smoke or have other worse risk factors, invest in stopping them instead.


Gregg

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[Texascavers] Honey Creek/Airmen's (was Re: [Texascavers] Breakthrough in Texas Longest Cave)

[Gregg]

I've been to the back of Airmen's twice.  I think most people who do it 
do so because its a challenge.  But I've always figured that a six-hour 
haul with a scuba tank would be harder, and have figured that one day I 
need to go on one of these Honey Creek trips to do something harder (and 
more productive).  But we should also consider this: Airmen's is right 
here in Austin.  It supposedly has going leads.  But no one seems 
willing to go back that far to survey.  So maybe it is harder than 
diving Honey Creek.  I know I was willing for awhile, but could never 
get any "modern" maps to find out where the supposed leads supposedly 
were.  We've talked hypothetically, in any case, of what it would be 
like if a sump dive was needed in Airmen's in the future.  Shit it would 
be hard.  I took a marathon runner to the back once.  It took him all 
trip to determine which was harder, running 28 miles in one shot or 
going to the back of Airmen's.  He decided the marathon was harder.  I 
can't run, so I'd rather go to the back of Airmen's than run three miles 
in one shot, but that's just me.


I don't see why the Wire Wiggle is so hard, really, by the way.  You're 
really tired by the time you get there, but it's wider and smoother than 
the entrance crawl.  I got my bag (which was attached to my foot) stuck 
in the Wire Wiggle, though.  I had to yank my foot around until the bag 
yanked my shoe off, go on, turn around in the crawl beyond, and then get 
the bag through.  It was a big bag.  We were camping back there.  But it 
wasn't anything like a scuba tank. In any case, I'm sure this is all 
based on who you are again.  My understanding is that the Wire Wiggle 
was knocked out by skinny cavers, therefore they widened it enough only 
for skinny cavers.  Tall people hate the one-legged man, too, though 
I've seen two different 6' 4'' cavers do it.


Gregg

speleoste...@tx.rr.com wrote:

Well, maybe so.  I happen to have been to all three places.  But I've only been 
on a tank haul to the upstream sump in Honey Creek.  I don't know that I could 
haul a tank to the back of Airman's.  I'd at least have to switch legs along 
the way used to drag the tank behind me.
  



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Re: [Texascavers] way off topic - Evil Knievel

[Gregg]

I remember the Snake River Canyon jump.  EK wanted to jump a side canyon 
of the Grand Canyon but the NPS wouldn't have him risking his life in 
the Park, so he went somewhere else.  They gave enough information 
during the jump that you could tell that the rocket performed exactly as 
expected.  But they never checked the wind direction.  The rocket 
crossed all the way over the canyon, then the wind blew it back in.  It 
was one of my early examples of why people need to pay attention to 
science.  Anyway, I loved EK!  I thought he was crazy, not a hero so 
much, but I SO wanted him to make that jump.  By the way, the loss of 
the Challenger in 1986 was caused essentially by the same error as 
Knievel's failed jump: failure to appreciate the implications of KNOWN 
weather effects on the shuttle.  I call this "failed eighth grade 
review", because an average eighth grader could probably spot the error 
in reasoning if they were told just a few facts about the system in 
question.  (Though I was in seventh grade when Snake River happened.)


Greggg


David Locklear wrote:

In the mid-70's, I was in elementary school, and nearly every boy
I knew wanted Evil Knievel toys.There was a wind-up motorcycle
and we all couldn't wait to see what the next toy would be.I am
pretty sure I had the EK Rocket or played with one owned by a friend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEUVm-Ja6lY&feature=related

He was a hero to us, in a time when there were no heroes.

We all waited in anticipation for over a year, as rumors spread that
he was going to jump "The Grand Canyon," on a motorcycle.

We were all disappointed when the jump was relocated to some
canyon in Idaho that none of us had ever heard of.

And then we waited, patiently to watch the launch. We were
all very upset to see that he wasn't on a motorcycle, but was on
some kind of corny rocket.

When the parachute opened, we were all pissed. We shouted
that it was a rigged event.

I never cared for Evil after that, but did watch the movie and thought
it was stupid.

Fortunately, KISS came along, so we had some heroes again.

Evil is gone now.

All I can do now, is cherish the pleasant memories that his toys
brought to my childhood.

David Locklear

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Re: [Texascavers] OT: First Annual Conference of Creation Geologists

[Gregg]

The size of Noah's Ark:

So, does it strike anyone else as funny that these people would stand 
against the tide and insist the Bible tells them exactly how old the 
Earth is, but then not pay attention to the dimensions of the Ark given 
in Genesis?  Or are they going on and on about the length of Noah's 
Wife's arm?  (I'm actually kind of serious.  The root problem of 
Creationism is not bad science, it's bad interpretation of Scripture and 
bad knowledge of their own religion.)


I suppose caves were all made in the flood too, right?  Isn't that how 
it goes?  Think of all those poor prehistoric bats that were buried when 
the flood filled (oops, we don't have caves yet. . . anyway. . . ) with 
water because the sons o' God just had to come down and do the nasty 
with some girls and make some giants. . .  Seems a little wasteful, 
doesn't it. . .


But right, these are the same folks that usually side with parties and 
systems that rape the environment all the time anyway.  So it's all in 
kind. . .


Creationism is not as much off-topic as we all would like it to be.

(End of rant.)


Gregg


John P Brooks wrote:
I was wondering if anyone else saw the article on the first annual 
gathering of Creation Geologists in last weeks New York Times 
Magazine? Great reading. An interesting and dramatic account of the 
first conference of creation geologists as they struggle through the 
perplexing geologic questions of the daysuch as "how did the Grand 
Canyon form?", "how did fossils get layered so consistently?" ( It had 
to do with thier distance from the sea shore when Noahs flood hit) and 
my favorite topic; "how big was Noahs Ark?".
Particularly poignant was an account of the geologists on a field trip 
picking up fossils and pocketing them in a state park ( what about 
thou shall not steal? )and the young son of one of the leaders of 
the group asked "how did all these fossils get here?"to which his 
dad answered "the flood brought them here". Someone should tell that 
kid that parents always lie; Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the tooth 
Fairy, and now a big world encompassing flood that leave deposits of 
fossils in an Ohio State Park. Amazing. God help us all.
 



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Re: [Texascavers] Digital (cave) Photography

[Gregg]

A lot of the fun/pain of digital photography for many people is 
interface dominated.  The same is true for film cameras with 
computerized controls.  If the interface of that really nice camera 
doesn't jive with the way you think, or controls you use all the time 
are buried in layers of menues to it takes 45 seconds to take a picture 
all the time, you'll get mad.  Make sure you actually use the camera as 
much as you can, or at least cameras in the same series made by the same 
manufacturer, so you can get some idea of how it really works for you.


If you take a lot of pictures, you'll need a big hard drive.

There's some kind of WYSIWYG (What you see is what you get) problem with 
Nikon that some caused some rather serious photographers I know to each 
abandon several thousand dollars of Nikon lenses and start over 
completely with Canon when they went digital.  I don't remember exactly 
what it was but it involved using a CCD in the camera that was the wrong 
size (or something like that) so that although the pre-digital lenses 
and digital cameras were mechanically compatible and billed as such, 
that the images were not produced correctly in the image plane, or the 
image in the viewfinder was not the same in the screen or photo, or 
there was distortion because the chip picked up the non-rectified part 
of the image from the lens, or something like that.  A friend of mine 
just bought a rather expensive "digital" version of a Nikon lens for his 
non-Nikon camera that uses Nikon lenses.  I don't know what this is 
really all about but if you have Nikon lenses you want to use with the 
D200, look before you leap.


The speed of throughput from digital camera to posted image on the 
Internet or printed image (via photo retailer or your own printer) is 
staggeringly fast compared to film.


All of my TCR images were taken with a $450 Canon SD850 that fits in my 
pocket.  I can't imagine what I could do if I had the money to spend on 
a digital camera that actually had parts.



Gregg


Scott Nicholson wrote:

Since the current topic is (Cave) Photography
 
I'm finally upgrading/updating my camera setup from film to digital. 
I've used Canon/Pentax/Nikon 35mm SLR gear for many years...and I'm in 
the middle of the learning curve about Digital SLR cameras.
 
I've /almost/ decided on the Nikon D200.
 
Does anyone out there have any feedback/suggestions as I make the leap 
into the digital photography world??
 
*Scott Nicholson*

*Broker/Waterboy*
*The Discovery Team*
*(512) 94-SCOTT {947-2688}*
*Keller Williams Realty*



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Re: [Texascavers] Good cave photos

[Gregg]

Hi,

It's always been about lighting.  Partly that's what you can afford.  
Partly its how much time it takes to set things up.  If you think about 
it, most indoor flash pictures of people are crap, and that's despite 
the fact that most of a person is usually at one distance from the 
camera where illumination is approximately constant.  "Good" flash 
pictures taken by professional photographers involve multiple sources of 
light, continuous bright lights, diffuse light sources, and time to make 
all this work. It's not a situation intrinsically unique to cave 
photography.  The reason we think its different is that we get around it 
all the time above ground because daylight photography has light coming 
from everywhere.


That doesn't mean that you can't get good cave photography with a 
camera-mounted flash.  It happens all the time - but usually only for 
close-up objects.  To get good photos, you need shadows, which moves the 
flash off the camera.  Then you don't the shadows to be completely 
black, which gets you the second flash.  They you need tripods or 
assistants to hold these things. . .


If you give a mouse a cookie. . .

Digital photography helps because you can see the results of a 
time-consuming shot straight up, while with film you take several 
variations on the same shot with different lighting etc. and hope you 
got it right.  Now that I have a cheap digital camera that still has a 
lot of pixels and good control features, I'm thinking of getting some 
slave flashes and trying nighttime and cave photography "on the cheap".  
The wimpy flash on the camera isn't good enough for cave photography, 
but it can set off the slaves.


Thank God being a good photographer was never a prerequisite for being a 
real caver.



Gregg




David Locklear wrote:

If those photos are today's standard for "good cave photos," I would
like to see what the "very good" or the "excellent" look like.

Will the average caver be able to take "good cave photos?"

Is it now just a matter of how good of a digital camera and lighting
you can afford?

Or can you get photos like that with cheap digital gear?

Will mastering Photoshop become a pre-requisite for being a real caver?

David Locklear

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Re: [Texascavers] Comet Warning

[Gregg]

At 8:00 pm (new time) it's about 40 degrees east of north and 20 degrees 
in elevation.  At midnight (even more guessing) it would be about 30 
east and 50 elevation.  The following links to a moderate resolution 
star chart that can be printed.

  http://www.cometchasing.skyhound.com/comets/17P.gif
At 8:00 pm, things are situated in the sky so the right end of the chart 
is up, and the constellation Auriga (mid left) is near the horizon about 
40 degrees east of north.  At midnight, Auriga will be the most obvious 
of the constellations on the map, about 40 degrees high in the NE, 
Casseopeia will be an obvious M shape high in the north, and Perseus 
will be between them.


*When using a star chart, look at things in the sky first and try to 
identify them on the map second*  Looking at the chart first and then 
trying to find things in the sky is very hard for most people.



Don Cooper wrote:

Could anyone post what direction and elevation to look for it around midnight?
I'm not familiar with Perseus.
-WV
  



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[Texascavers] Comet Warning

[Gregg]

There's definitely a comet.  It's about magnitude 3 or so just north of 
the main bright stars in Perseus.  I mistook it for one of them for a 
minute or so before I actually got the binoculars out.  It looks like a 
giant globular cluster.  It is visible all night long, though I'm up 
bloody early.



Gregg wrote:
Comet Holmes disintegrated on October 24 and is now supposedly visible 
to the naked eye in Perseus.  It can't be terribly obvious in-town 
since I've been looking at the Demon Star lately and haven't seen any 
comet, but after January. . .


http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2007/02nov_nov5.htm?list58968


Gregg

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[Texascavers] Preliminary Comet Warning

[Gregg]

Comet Holmes disintegrated on October 24 and is now supposedly visible 
to the naked eye in Perseus.  It can't be terribly obvious in-town since 
I've been looking at the Demon Star lately and haven't seen any comet, 
but after January. . .


http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2007/02nov_nov5.htm?list58968


Gregg

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Re: [Texascavers] RE: Dangers of caving

[Gregg]

We always hear the base rates for these things.  For example, the CDC ( 
http://wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/PrevGuid/m0052833/m0052833.asp ) says an 
average of 82 people died from lightning in the US between 1980-1995.  
But we don't know how many man hours outside was required for this.  If 
during the same time the US average of 250 million people or so spent an 
average of 10 minutes outdoors in thunderstorms per year (low estimate), 
this would be 25 million thunderstorm man hours per 82 deaths and the 
risk of death would be 1 death per 300,000 thunderstorm man hours.  This 
would be the important statistic governing the dangerosity of lightning 
because it estimates how much risky behavior (exposing oneself to 
lightning) results in each death.  I'm guessing these data just to show 
how the calculation is done.  To estimate the dangerosity of caving, 
we'd need to know how many man hours were spent underground for several 
years and the corresponding number of fatal accidents.  To be useful, 
we'd also want to separate out horizontal vs vertical caving, cave 
diving, and caving by non-cavers.  As in ALL cases involving injury, it 
is also obligatory to separate out factors like drinking, though in my 
experience this is not as common as, say, drinking and driving, which 
produces something like a 20-fold modifier in the number of deaths per 
driving hour or driving mile.


You need to do the same thing to assess the danger of driving vs flying 
(also do per mile), comparing traveling abroad vs in the US or comparing 
the risks of living in certain cities, and other things that people talk 
about a lot.  I know I once tried to work out flying vs driving.  Per 
hour, it seems that flying is more dangerous.  Per distance, cars are.  
For something like smoking that causes an accumulated risk of early 
death, it may be more useful to compare time smoked to time lost. (It's 
4:1.)


Speaking of flying and caving, I once was going to go on a flying trip 
in a single-engine plane, but my pilot was on the cave-rescue call list 
in Bloomington, Indiana and was called out on a search.  They found the 
lost boys drunk in the back of a cave, burning their shirts for light.  
It was Y2K morning.  They'd gone out to celebrate the millennium.  SO, 
obviously, drinking and Y2K can (via caving) cause not flying.  I'm sure 
the base rate and the per flight rate of this is very small.



Gregg



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Re: [Texascavers] RE: Austin Cave Fest promotes safe caving

[Gregg]

Dangerosity os a great word.

Chris Vreeland wrote:
I'd heard somewhere (Now that's authoritative!) that when the overall 
stats of caver injury and death are added up vs. hours spent caving, 
it falls somewhere between Soccer and Golf on the scale of 
dangerosity. This doesn't include cave diving, which would skew the 
numbers, as diving appears to be quite a bit more dangerous. I have no 
authoritative statistics to back up that last statement, though -- 
just a hunch.


CV



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[Texascavers] TCR Pictures

[Gregg]

Hi,

I have posted pictures of TCR at Flickr.  They are mostly of the mud 
wrestling and stuff near the water, since that's where I hung out.


The URL is http://www.flickr.com/gp/16017351@N08/i9k07Q

It's a lot easier to see the pictures if you click on the "detail" link 
under "TCR 2007" after the page opens. E-mail me if you want me to 
remove or alter any pics, or want more information.




Gregg

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Re: [Texascavers] OT - a geologic question

[Gregg]

They are the evaporated souls of the damned, recondensed in higher 
layers of hell, which are cooler.  They then drip and produce what 
appears to be flowstone.  They are probably more like snotites, 
however.  This may be the origin of the gooey slimey stuff sometimes 
seen on devils, or people who though living in the mortal plane 
obviously originated in Hell.


David Locklear wrote:

Disclaimer:

This e-mail was written under the influence of 2 table-spoons of
NyQuil, and one benzocaine throat lozenge )   No other mind enhancement
drugs, except maybe caffeine contributed to this.


Occasionally I see cartoon drawings of Hell showing stalagmites and
stalactites. I would like to analyze this phenomenon from the perspective
of someone who loves speleothems.


Are these limestone formations?or are they melted igneous rock?

The people in these cartoons are usually sweating, but they are still
alive, so the temperature must me around 140 degrees. Can limestone
form stalactites under these conditions? There is no water in Hell, right?

What purpose would having speleothems serve in Hell?   Are they for
decoration?Does any environment full of speleothems make your
visitation there more miserable?

I would deduce there is no limestone in Hell, therefore there are no
calcium-carbonate spelethems.

Certainly this description of Hell, is not a lava tube. It is a big room
full of speleothems.

Is there such a void near the mantle, where speleothems grow and
lava bubbles up?

Do cavers support the idea of having artwork describing Hell as a cave?
This would tend to associate cavers with demonic people. I sometimes
feel that non-cavers think cavers have some sort of connection to the
dark underworld.

I think most of the people that believe in a speleo-version of Hell, take
the side that Hell is very deep in the crust of the earth, so that would
rule out any limestone caves.

I assume the devil has no control of the the growth of speleothems in
his chambers.But he seems to be taking good care of them.   So
he can't be all bad, right?

I hope I will never learn the answer to this question.

David Locklear


Ref:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan_in_literature

The Comics Go to Hell: A Visual History of the Devil in Comics (by
Fredrik Stromberg, 360 pages, Fantagraphics Books, 2005, ISBN
1560976160)

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Re: [Texascavers] RE: More black holes spotted on Mars

[Gregg]

George Nincehelser wrote:

From the article:
"The holes may be openings, called skylights, in the ceilings of 
underground caves".
 
I think this may have been discussed before, but is there such a thing 
as an "aboveground" cave?
Yes.  Since all of Mars is above ground, and these are caves on Mars, 
there are at least some aboveground caves.  One should also not forget 
that from the Martian POV, all Earth caves are above ground.


Gregg

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Re: [Texascavers] More black holes spotted on Mars :

[Gregg]

These seem to be the same skylights that were reported in the article 
several months ago.  I imagine a different news agency at NASA just got 
the old or an updated version of the old news.


Gregg



jerryat...@aol.com wrote:

http://asunews.asu.edu/node/1102

Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail 
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?ncid=AOLAOF0002000970>!



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Re: [Texascavers] WOW! More detail from the crater holes on Mars!!!

[Gregg]

Well, the gig is up!

You can now tell that the walls are overhanging.

I downloaded the uncompressed file of the original photo a few weeks ago 
and did my own processing.  I could see both the illuminated wall and 
the shadowed wall in reflected light, both of them far too thin for that 
to be anything other than overhanging or the very dark submartian lake 
that some people have speculated about.


Now I get to go download the next zillion MB file and try to hack it 
with my tiny amount of RAM



Gregg



Don Cooper wrote:
This is copied from a post Lee Skinner placed on the Yahoo 
Cave-Diggers group:



NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter's HiRISE camera has a new photo of
 
one of the pits on Mars:


Dark pits on some of the Martian volcanoes have been speculated to be 
entrances into caves. A previous HiRISE image, 


<
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_003647_1745> looking essentially 
straight down, saw only darkness in this pit.


This time the pit was imaged from the west. Since the picture was taken
 
at about 2:30 
p.m. local (Mars) time, the sun was also shining from the
 
west. We can now see the eastern wall 
<
http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/images/2007/details/cut/PSP_004847_1745_cut_b.jpg> 
of the pit catching the sunlight.


This confirms that this pit is essentially a vertical shaft cut through
 
the lava flows on the flank of the volcano. Such pits form on similar 


volcanoes in Hawaii and are called "pit craters." They generally do not
 
connect to long open caverns but are the result of deep underground 
collapse. From the shadow of the rim cast onto the wall of the pit we 

can calculate that the pit is at least 78 meters (255 feet) deep. The 
pit is 150 x 157 meters (492 x 515 feet) across.





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RE: [Texascavers] RE: [How to cook bats]

[Gregg Geist]

I thought they always did.

After all, they're already calling them "hamburgers" while saying they're
beef burgers.  Hey, maybe its all a scam and all hamburgers are
ratburgers.  And what do you call prepared rat, anyway?  We have pork for
pig and beef for cow.  What about rat?  What's the French word for rat? 
That's where those other cuisine words came from.

Gregg



Stefan wrote:

>   It's been a while (20yrs?) since I ate in McDonalds; do they
> sell rat burgers now-a-days?
>
>   Stefan


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Re: [Texascavers] Beware eating squirrel brains

[Gregg Geist]

I guess it's just getting bad all around to eat brains.  "Mad Human
Disease" is called Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease or Human Spongiform
Encephalitis and has some of the symptoms of Alzheimer's.  It is caused by
a toxic version of a normal human protein I have now forgotten the name
of.  The protein is folded incorrectly and can induce its deformation in
healthy copies of the protein.  Such a protein is called a prion, though
"prion" should properly refer only to the transmittable folding
information.  All of the mammal versions of this protein are similar
enough to effect each other.  I don't knoow why it is more concentrated in
the brain.  The protein is one of the general operators in the waste
disposal system of cells.  It may be that once eaten it can only enter
cells in the brain, so it concentrates in brains.  It must be a tough
little bastard because it can survive in cooked meals.  It's transmitted
in New Guinea by ceremonial cannibalism where the brains are not cooked,
and the transmission rate there is really high, probably due to maximal
similarity (human brains) and no cooking.  I don't know if there is a
critical amount of cooking that will finally denature the thing beyond
toxicity, but I imagine that if you've got sesos from a place with mad
cows, (or want to eat that squirrel or rat brain) you shoould try cooking
the hell out of it to increase your chances.  In fact, you should well
cook all of your exotics.  They don't have that additional barrier of meat
inspections, and they may have some exotic but still transmittable stuff.

Gregg



Bill wrote:

> I've heard that there's an ailment similiar to mad cow disease that rural
> people in Arkansas have gotten from eating squirrel brians.  Does anyone
> know anything about it?  I cave in Arkansas a couple of times a year and
> so far I've managed to not eat any of that particular delicacy.
>
> Bill
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Yummy for your Tummy!

[Gregg Geist]

This is one of the better posts I've read in this forum.



BMorgan994 wrote:

> I believe that I can speak with some authority in regard to eating rats and
> bats. I've already posed concerning eating bats in Borneo.

etc.


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Re: [Texascavers] OT - the future of cave listserves

[Gregg]

Blimey, we could all hear David talk about lights in the voice of 
Stephen Hawking!


Or can we get different voices?  I can just hear Mixon speaking with a 
British accent!  Or Ediger talking in a sweet female voice.  The 
possibilities are. . . really damn funny.



Gregg




David Locklear wrote:

There is a new software that will let you listen to your e-mail
as an MP3 file on your iPod.

Theoretically, you could have all your caving related e-mail on
your iPod. You could go jogging or caving and listen to
caver e-mail from all over the world.

I don't believe this is going to be a success.But I do believe
there is a great potential for portable audio devices to have educational
programming.I would like to try learning more Spanish on
an iPod.

http://www.spanish.bz/ipod.htm

Is anybody out there using their iPod, for something other than music?

David Locklear

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Re: [Texascavers] Aboveground & more

[Gregg]

Light humor?

As opposed to melancholic?

Stefan Creaser wrote:


It�s light made up of heavier particles (think: wave/particle duality 
theorems).


Stefan.



*From:* John P. Brooks [mailto:jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net]
*Sent:* Tuesday, June 05, 2007 11:05 PM
*To:* gi...@att.net; texascavers@texascavers.com
*Subject:* Re: [Texascavers] Aboveground & more

Is there a specific type of light called LED light? Or is light just 
light? Please enlighten us.



On 6/5/07 9:43 AM, "gi...@att.net"  wrote:

>> Brian Vauter wrote:
>
> It should also be pointed out that the devices (electric or carbide or
> whatever) that produce light are correctly named "lamps," not "lights."
> "Light" is the esoteric stuff that the lamps produce which enable us 
to see in

> the otherwise darkness of caves.* LED headlamps produce LED light.
*>
> There are a good many other such caving terms of which discussion 
would offer
> some degree of entertainment and enlightenment. But as most cavers 
are not
> much interested in gramatical correctness I don't envision a great 
deal of

> literary improvement resulting from it.
>
> --Ediger
>

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Re: [Texascavers] Aboveground Caves

[Gregg]

I've been in buildings that made me think I was in an aboveground cave. 

Of particular note are the "bathroom mazes" in Britain.  Sometimes you 
have to go through 100 feet of winding tunnel to reach a WC.  There was 
one bathroom I used that had 3 turns and a junction (to a tiny shower) 
all within a 6 foot by 10 foot space.



Gregg

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Re: [Texascavers] Candidate Cavern Entrance Northeast of Arsia Mons

[Gregg]

I think F in this collection of images is the Arsia Mons cave from the 
HiRISE image.


Gregg



William Tucker wrote:

Need some more evidence that mars is hollow?

http://www.planetary.org/image/caves.jpg

And you thought I was joking. :)

William 



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Re: [Texascavers] Candidate Cavern Entrance Northeast of Arsia Mons

[Gregg]

>Any idea how big this thing is?
>
>The cutout view shows the edges real good. Looks like it was done with 
a paper punch.


I've been watching the space program and have seen literally tens of 
thousands of NASA images, and this looks really bizarre.  If the image 
scale is really 25 cm per pixel as it is for the whole image described 
at the bottom of the page, the hole, being about 300 pixels across, is 
about 75 meters in diameter.  I don't know the viewing geometry.  
Judging from the way these HiRise images are usually taken and the way 
the shadow looks on the walls, the image is from directly above the pit, 
it is very deep, and the illuminated edge we see on the right (east) 
side of the hole is solar illumination reaching about 50 meters down 
that side. 

This would have to be a sinkhole into a VERY large lava tube or empty 
lava chamber in the side of the volcano.  I know that at least on very 
small scales, lava can build up and expelled gases can make circular 
domes in underground chambers.  It may be that this was just that sort 
of thing on a large scale, and the top has been eroded off to leave such 
a round hole.  I thought for a moment that a meteor might do it, but a 
meteor actually makes its hole by an explosion, and I don't see how an 
explosion forcing its way through a thin roof could make such a neat 
round hole like that the way it can if it's exploding from underground 
like usual for an impact.  It could though.


The "sotano" is probably over 200 meters deep, or has an unusually dark 
floor.  This would be a fabulous place to look for ice, interesting 
geology, and life trying to hide from harsh sunlight.  It's also the 
perfect place to put that habitation module without fear of unshielded 
solar radiation.  It's one of the most important features on that planet.


Gregg

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Re: [Texascavers] RE: Six months or 180 days?

[Gregg]

Nancy Weaver wrote:
Is part of  the confusion perhaps that there is an Insurance Policy 
that allows one to use only the days actually spent in Mexico? 
I imagine this is like the old thing about whether you could get into 
Mexico using a drivers license as an ID.  Some people definitely did get 
in with only a drivers license, but that wasn't legal.  You just had to 
get border personnel who didn't give a damn, and there were a lot of 
those.  But some people would go down there and get a border agent who 
cared, and would be turned back.  So you'd have one group of people who 
swore up and down based on their own personal experience that it only 
took a drivers license, and another that said you needed a voter 
registration card (or whatever it was.)


I suppose we have some people who have gone back into Mexico well after 
six months had passes since they got their temporary registration and 
were let in, and others who did so but were asked to get a new 
registration.  I know there were still others who got in trouble of some 
kind because they did not turn in their registration paperwork before 
180 consecutive days was up.  The wording said something like "return to 
an [authorized station] before 180 days [etc.]" and some border 
officials took that to mean "return and turn in your form before your 
permit expires", not "get out of Mexico before your permit expires".  I 
imagine the present confusion over what six months means arises from 
confusing wording plus inconsistent training of personnel.  (As well as 
not paying them enough so that they care in the first place.)  Knowing 
that this is partly a money-making venture on the part of the Government 
of Mexico, I would imagine that the intent is that you have to do all 
your trips within 180 consecutive days, and that's how I remember it 
being written.  I last read the paperwork in the early 90's, though, so 
who knows how it has changed.  And the translation was by computer - and 
badly - so the English was one of the most hilarious things I have read.


There isn't a single math issue in here, by the way.  It's all language, 
definitions, rules, and luck.


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Re: [Texascavers] gas prices

[Gregg]

Bill Bentley wrote:
Looks like the countries that have oil and lots of it have cheap gas, 
but that doesn't apply to the US in areas where there are lots of oil...
We have better minimum wage laws that they don't have in those 
countries.  As soon as you start extracting, refining, and transporting 
oil without "slave labor", it gets expensive.  If we required Arab 
nations to pay all involved in the oil industry the wages they are paid 
in the US, they would have a different attitude about us.  The price of 
oil would go up to $7.00 per gallon. but we would solve a lot of the 
Middle East problem.


This, by the way, IS, the Middle East problem.  Irrational people on 
streets in the Middle East is one of the prices we pay for cheap gas.  
It's not all about Israel.



Gregg

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Re: [Texascavers] Glasses vs. Contact Lenses

[Gregg Geist]

Dive mask stuff is usually some kind of Uberspit that you spray or drip on 
and then wash off.  I.e. it won't work without the water.  There may be 
semi-permanent anti-fog procedures, though.  I know they make fog resistant 
goggles and stuff.  I'd still contact the dive shop.  Just call one up and 
see if they have something that doesn't need to be washed off.

Gregg



At 06:26 PM 12/3/2005, texasmounta...@aol.com wrote:
>The stuff you can put in your glasses is made by EK products and is oddly 
>named "cat crap" (it may be kat krap).  You should be able to find it at 
>any of the Whole Earth Provision Co.'s, REI, or, as a last-ditch effort, 
>Good Sports in San Antonio.  I hope this helps y'all out there...
>
>Best,
>
>Ryan
>
>PS:  My email is changing to 
><mailto:texasmounta...@yahoo.com>texasmounta...@yahoo.com - please write 
>there.  Thanks.
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Re: CaveTex: RE: Batboy, the musical

[Gregg Geist]

At 11:22 AM 6/15/2005, Jim Kennedy wrote:
Austin's Arts on Real Theatre has kindly offered to donate BCI � of its 
Total Ticket Sales from its Wednesday, June 22 performance of Batboy: The 
Musical.


I probably waited too long to do this, but I checked the theater site and 
there are shows on the 23rd, 24th, and 25th.  Which is the benefit performance?


Gregg 



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Re: CaveTex: Highest Speed Limit

[Gregg Geist]

Back in 1991 or so, I served on a jury in a speeding case.  It was one of 
the most exotic juries I've heard of.  Of the six of us, three were 
attornies and the other two college grads in different fields.  In any 
case, we were given the "safe and reasonable speed" criterion as the 
standard to judge by.  The guy was driving someone to the hospital and said 
going above the speed limit was OK for this reason.  As it turned out, the 
defense attorney gave us all the information we needed to determine the guy 
was driving too fast.  He conceded that the emergency was not so important, 
then went on and on about the radar gun, then showed us a detailed map of 
the neighborhoods to try to argue that the posted speed limit was 
anomalously low, but there was so much detail on the map that we all 
realized that in our experience, those speed limits were too high.  So we 
decided that even if the guy was going the speed limit, it still wasn't 
reasonable.


As far as I know, it's still the law, and any cop that wanted to get 
someone for driving 65 in a 65 zone during a blinding rainstorm could 
probably make it stick in court.  It's also the reason, as I understand it, 
that cops cannot be sued for dereliction of duty when they fail to stop 
EVERYONE in that pack of 100 cars who are all going 75 in the 70 zone.  If 
that's the speed of the pack, it becomes reasonable because all going the 
same speed is better than not for safety reasons.



Gregg


At 07:45 PM 8/26/2005, Gill Ediger wrote:

When I took drivers ed way back in the previous century, they told me 
there was no real speed limit anyway--that there was a clause in the law 
that said you must drive a "reasonable and prudent" speed. During a 
blinding rain storm that might be only 15 mph, but during a cool, clear 
day with minimal traffic it might be 150--if your car was built for it. 
Yeah, they'd give you a ticket, but if you could convince the judge that 
it was a reasonable and prudent speed given the road and traffic and 
weather conditions--and maybe that you weren't all that drunk--then the 
law allowed you to drive that fast on the way to the cave. Now that we've 
made it into the '80s, my question is: Is that still the way the law is 
written, enforced, and interpreted?


Punch it!
--Ediger



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Re: CaveTex: Volunteers, Katrina

[Gregg Geist]

I've been wondering how to help.  No monetary donations can possibly be 
converted in time to prevent the major catastrophe, though it will be 
necessary to contribute to insure the continued existence of aid agencies 
after this hit.  I have thought about trying to get there, but to be useful 
(i.e. to get food and water where it is needed within 48 hours) will 
require a boat or helicopter.  There are one or two roads left and I bet 
the DHS won't let anyone in.  I would suggest that the only way one can 
help if one were not (un)lucky enough to be in the city with extra water 
and food (or a boat) before Katrina hit would be to provide direct 
assistance to evacuees.  I don't mean monetary contributions necessarily, 
but going to wherever refugees are, or calling such places by phone, and 
finding out exactly what they need.



Gregg


At 09:39 AM 9/1/2005, will wrote:

OK CAVERS
   I KNOW ALOT OFF YOU WILL BE VOLUNTEERING OR BE
 VOLUNTEERD TO HELP IN THE AFTERMATH OF KATRINA.
  SO LETS GET TOGETHER COORDINATING RESOURCES. YOU
 MAY EMAIL ME IF YOUR GO, AND I'LL START A LIST.
WILL RUPLEY
wills...@flash.net



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Re: CaveTex: further apology

[Gregg Geist]

I suppose if we jump up and down hard enough on the word thing, we'll make 
enough noise that we won't hear the real racists sneak past us.  I know 
words can hurt, and I'd never call someone one of those things, but words 
are a minor hurt.  Attitudes keep people down, not words.  I'm sure white 
supremecists, armchair plutocrats, and other barely human bastards like 
them LOVE "political correctness".  It's a big bloody distraction that 
takes the heat off THEM.



Gregg


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