[Texascavers] NPR.org - South African
Please post this for me. We are traveling and do not have a Real Coputer Dwight Sent from Samsung tablet Original message From David Riskind Date: 09/11/2015 10:07 AM (GMT-05:00) To "'dirt...@comcast.net'" Subject FW: NPR.org - South African Cave Yields Strange Bones Of Early Human-Like Species For further reading They maintained a blog during the initial cave investigations and excavations (funded by National Geographic, and this may well be the last great project ever funded by that group). http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/blog/rising-star-expedition/?order=asc Feel free to read the fully open access, peer-reviewed report by the PI ( a respected paleoanthropologist with decades of experience) and his team (including several other respected paleoanths) here: http://elifesciences.org/content/4/e09560 Here’s the fully open access, peer-reviewed report on the geological and taphonomic setting, which helps to possibly answer some of your questions about cave setting, as well as possibility of rodents and other critters: http://elifesciences.org/content/4/e09561 From what I’ve read in the reports and various blog summaries and interviews, they suggest intentional deposition (as opposed to ritual burial) after having eliminated any other reasonable explanation, based on the geology, taphonomy, analysis of the skeletal remains, etc. Here’s one such summary by a bioarchaeologist and blogger, who approached it critically and skeptically: http://www.forbes.com/sites/kristinakillgrove/2015/09/10/did-homo-naledi-bury-its-dead-mummified-chimp-babies-might-help-us-find-an-answer/ ___ Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/ http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
[Texascavers] T-shirts
I got rid of a whole passel of historical and hysterical (and some just plane odd) ones at the recent NSS convention in Missouri. Texas cavers who shunned the event missed out. Many of the better ones were gone in the first 10 minutes to discerning (or deranged) individuals. Dirt Doc Sent from Samsung tablet Original message From Ron Ralph via Texascavers Date: 09/07/2015 9:39 AM (GMT-05:00) To texascavers@texascavers.com Subject Re: [Texascavers] [TCR][Don's T-Shirt Trading Post] Great idea. I remember Dwight Deal giving out a duffle bag full one year. You might ask him and other old timers not on the list if they would like to donate.] Ron ___ Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/ http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
[Texascavers] Apusini Mountains, Romania Part 2
24 September 2014 Another post to the group The Ghejar Karst Plateau is another part of the Western Apusini Mountains of central Romania. Underlain by slightly metamorphosed limestone and complexity faulted, it is topographically relatively high. Summits over 1,800 meters and close to tree line. To get there we climbed over Vartop pass and discovered a mini-Ruidoso(NM). Two ski lifts and a bunch of winter sports chalets. In the town of Garda de Sus we made contact with Ciubo, the local G. P. at the clinic. A life-long caver and photographer, he had made arrangements for us to stay at the Pensiunea next to the ice cave, 500 meters above the town. Scarisoara Ice Cave contains a thick accumulation of ice that has been cored and recently dated beyond 10,500 BP. The cave is situated in the middle of spectacular karstland with multiple sinking streams and a confusing subterranean drainage. Bogan Onac has played an important role in figuring it out before coming to the USA. Ciubo is a joyful great bear of a man who enthusiasticly explained it all --- The next day we left the karst and went to Turda, where a visit to the salt mine is a must. The salt has been intruded and is a salt dome,so the exposed walls are scenic and interesting. Other than that, It's a bit hard to describe. Google it. Mined for 2000 years, it finally became noncommercial and is now a fascinating underground mine tour crossed with Disney land. They held a big wedding there last weekend. On to Sighisoara, Brasov (and the Real Dracula's Castle), Sibiu, and more eastern European history. I can report seeing NO Vlad-cicles. (Rhymes with popsicles). If that doesn't make sense, read up on Vlad The Impailer. Onward--- Dirt Doc Sent from Samsung tablet___ Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/ http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
[Texascavers] Apusini Karst, Romania #1
20 September 2014 Again, my intention is to post this to the group. We are now in Romania. With the help of some Romanian cavers (both local and living in the USA -Bogdan Onac and Gheorghe Ponta ---THANKS Bogdan and Gheorghe) and lots of sign language, we are having a great time (even though the weather isn't the best). Just north of Rosia we found a cavers camp perched on a hilltop overlooking (and part of) large scale sink hole studded karst. 360 degrees! Friendly local farmers manage the caver-owned complex of small traditional houses and camp sites fed us with local meals. Our particular little House under the Stars sleeps two on the bed (one room house), but four more could spread their bags in the attic. The Western Apusini Mountains (Bihor karst) is a large complex limestone unit that contains more than 7,000 caves. A cavers paradise. Our little house is by the entrance to one of Romanias major caves: Ciur Ponor Ciur Izbuc Cave system. The second day we were there two Romanian cavers showed up to bunk in the main house, which has a self catering kitchen (interesting phrase) with stove, fridge, etc and room for 25-30 cavers without crowding. Add beer and you could fit more. We visited several nearby caves. Farcu Mine which dug into the Cave of the Crystals. Small but gorgeous. Like Caverns of Sonora, but not as extensive. It has about 30 "butterflies" , but none to compare to Sonora's missing one. Clear, transparent helectites and more. Meziad Cave. Huge passage but most of the formations were dry and dusty. A bit of a disappointment, but we were comparing it to the best of the best. Bear Cave. A fantastic paleo site and quite a beautiful cave. On the order of 140 cave bear skulls and a lot more. A must visit if you are in the area. The next day was Monday and developed caves and museums were closed. Besides, it was raining. So we moved on. Dirt Doc Sent from Samsung tablet___ Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/ http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
[Texascavers] Fwd: Hungarian Kast
I'm having trouble posting from Romania. Please post this to the group. Thanks, Dwight Sent from Samsung tablet Original message From DirtDoc Date: 09/24/2014 8:04 AM (GMT-07:00) To Bill Bentley ,via Texascavers Subject Fwd: Hungarian Kast Sent from Samsung tablet Original message Subject Hungarian Kast 18 September 2014 Hi all After spending some time driving across the farmland of the Carpathian Basin we spent two and a half days in the Slovakian Karst (Slovakia) and the Aggtelek Karst of Hungary. Impressive and beautiful country. The underground connection between Domica Cave (Slovakia) and Baradla Cave (Aggtelek - Hungary) is no longer closed by the Cold War gate, but it is a serious water cave expedition with full kit in order to traverse. So we did not try it. Prof. Szabolcs generously spent one morning showing us his special cave and the surrounding karst. Although there have been serious rains recently, it has been so dry the last two years that the aquifer has been drained significantly. All the recent rains have done is to partially replenish the karst. Water levels in the caves are still low and the boats for the underground float are perched on the mud. Aggtelek (Baradla entrance) is certainly a pretty cave and the tour goes through large passages. Highly recommended is the long tour. All day with helmet and headlights through well decorted easy walking passage, and the guides carry and serve you lunch. This goes seven km from the Baradla entrance to the Josuafo entrance (man made). There is another artificial entrance between those two which accesses the Red Lake section, a large, very pretty room. We headed south to Eger and visited the Bukk Mountains, the highest elevations in Hungary at 800 to 900 meters. Lots of caves here, too, as well as hot springs. Szabolcs told us about one outside of Miscolk that had been developed as a spa. Float on your back in hot water inside the cave! Dwight and Mary Sent from Samsung tablet___ Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/ http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
[Texascavers] Fwd: Hungarian Kast
Sent from Samsung tablet Original message From DirtDoc Date: 09/24/2014 8:00 AM (GMT-07:00) To "White, William B." ,"Palmer, Arthur" Cc Jacob Vargish ,Tara Vargish ,Craig Deal Subject Hungarian Kast 18 September 2014 Hi all After spending some time driving across the farmland of the Carpathian Basin we spent two and a half days in the Slovakian Karst (Slovakia) and the Aggtelek Karst of Hungary. Impressive and beautiful country. The underground connection between Domica Cave (Slovakia) and Baradla Cave (Aggtelek - Hungary) is no longer closed by the Cold War gate, but it is a serious water cave expedition with full kit in order to traverse. So we did not try it. Prof. Szabolcs generously spent one morning showing us his special cave and the surrounding karst. Although there have been serious rains recently, it has been so dry the last two years that the aquifer has been drained significantly. All the recent rains have done is to partially replenish the karst. Water levels in the caves are still low and the boats for the underground float are perched on the mud. Aggtelek (Baradla entrance) is certainly a pretty cave and the tour goes through large passages. Highly recommended is the long tour. All day with helmet and headlights through well decorted easy walking passage, and the guides carry and serve you lunch. This goes seven km from the Baradla entrance to the Josuafo entrance (man made). There is another artificial entrance between those two which accesses the Red Lake section, a large, very pretty room. We headed south to Eger and visited the Bukk Mountains, the highest elevations in Hungary at 800 to 900 meters. Lots of caves here, too, as well as hot springs. Szabolcs told us about one outside of Miscolk that had been developed as a spa. Float on your back in hot water inside the cave! Dwight and Mary Sent from Samsung tablet___ Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/ http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
[Texascavers] Word from the katst of Eastern Europe
We are traveling with only a tablet and my intention was to post this to the group. We have been traveling 19 days so far. Visited parts of the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and are now in Budapest. In addition to visiting the Moravian and Bohemian karst and caves (the same regions visited last year by those attending the International Congress in Brno but we have been on our own schedule and generally spending more time actually in the countryside),we have devoted time to appreciate the last 1,000 years plus of Gothic, Renaissance, Baroque, and more recent history of Eastern Europe. There are beautifully restored towns of Chesty Krumlov, Telc, and Holasovice, some really gems hidden out in the countryside. The large cave system of the Moravian Karst that is partly unroofed (hydrologically 33+ km of caves) including Punkva Cave and the Macocha Abyss is truly impressive and on the scale we have seen in the Balkans, China, and SE Asia. We stayed in a small pension in the middle of the karst not far from the main tourist cave. I had rained recently and the waters were up in the karst and the lower levels were flooded. We did get a good feel for the hydrodynamics. We will rent a car and head for the Aggtelek and Slovak Kast on the border of Slovakia and Hungary, and then to the karst of Romania. Presently in Budapest and have enjoyed several nights of fine music, thermal spas, and a complex of caves beneath the Buda side of the city. Some are excavated but some are abandoned feeders to the thermal springs. To be continued Dirtdoc Sent from Samsung tablet___ Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/ http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
Re: [SWR] Daughters of Radon
I used to dance "The Ascender" to their beat - sorta like "The Monkey", but slower --- Dirtdoc ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[SWR] Daughters of Radon
Daughters of Radon - following the Natural Trap thread The monitoring in Carlsbad started around 1975 or 1976. The discovery of high levels of radon in Carlsbad Caverns caught all the federal cave management folks off guard. The "Daughters of Radon" concern resulted in the first ever Cave Management Symposium in Albuquerque (October 1975). This was arranged by the Cave Research Foundation and the National Park Service to provide federal managers - Park Service, BLM, and Forest Service with guidance. For the first time on a national level federal resource managers became aware that caves really needed managing, and that cavers were a significant source for useful information. The initial concern was for the federal employees who spent the majority of their time underground. This meeting happened to coincide with the first real Balloon Fiesta in Albuquerque. Sandy and I drove up from Alpine, Texas. Our kids were both small and were tremulously impressed with the "flying dragons" roaring fire in the sky over our heads. So were most of the symposium attendees. I remember Pete and Karen Lindsley, Will White, Jack Hess, and all the CRF leadership present. DirtDoc - Original Message - When I worked there in 1970-71, I don't recall that any radon monitoring had yet been started. During the winter, a draft of cold outside air falls into the lower part of the entrance, moves down along the floor of the Main Corridor and into the lower part of the Big Room, then warms and recirculates back outside along the ceiling. I would expect radon levels to be very low along the tour route while that cold-trap circulation is going on. Did the people doing the monitoring say how significant were the levels they found? --Donald ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[Texascavers] China Caves
China Caves National Geographic has sponsored a series of 3-D laser surveys of some of China's spectacular caves. They have also put up an interesting web site ( China's Super Caves) that includes both text articles and videos of SW China's spectacular karst. This site is a portal to several articles and videos, including The Karsts of China . Take your time and explore this site. Check out the Featured Videos and Related buttons. The central video features British cavers Andy Eavis and Peter Smart, photographer Carstin Peters, and a host of younger sports. Rock climbers have been exploring these areas (in many places before the cavers. There are several sequences around Yangshuo, especially on Moon Hill SW of town. China's Super Caves http://www.nationalgeographic.com/china-caves/supercaves/ or http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/magazine/ngm-china-caves-3d Text (Scroll down to read through the text): http://www.nationalgeographic.com/china-caves/ Hong Meigui (Red Rose) Chamber named by Erin Lynch's Hong Meigui Cave Exploration Society This is in the Leye Karst of western Guangxi Province, close to Dashiwei Tiankeng. Gebhie Cave System - Miao Chamber Ziyun Getu He Chuan Dong National Park Located between Guiyang and Leye, South of Guiyang The Karsts of China This is a climber's video http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/magazine/ngm-china-caves-climbing?source=relatedvideo DirtDoc
The Son Doong Cave in Vietnam is open for business
Although we did not actually get into this biggest section, we were in part of the cave system in October-November 2011 and again in 2012 with our SE Asia Karst Tour. In 2012 we also had an evening with Howard Limbert and listened to him talk about the history or 20 years of cave exploration in this part of Vietnam. News story with great photos: http://tinyurl.com/kar5qwq Son Doong Cave's website: http://tinyurl.com/9mdrl67 Dwight
Re: [Texascavers] Comcast has bounced me off
OK. Thanks. I can probably live without the flood - Dwight - Original Message - From: "Charles Goldsmith" To: "2 - Dwight on COMCAST" Cc: "Charles Goldsmith" , "Lindsley, Pete" Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 3:10:17 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Comcast has bounced me off Yes, you were never un-subscribed, comcast is probably rejecting email coming from my server for texascavers.com I just need a day to work on things and haven't had the time. On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 3:09 PM, wrote: > Thanks Charles, Pete. > > Is there anything more I need to do? > > I did (I think) re-subscribe automatically, but if that last post of mine > actually went through to everybody else then the server must still think I > am a subscriber?? > > Dwight
Re: [Texascavers] Comcast has bounced me off
Thanks Charles, Pete. Is there anything more I need to do? I did (I think) re-subscribe automatically, but if that last post of mine actually went through to everybody else then the server must still think I am a subscriber?? Dwight
Fwd: Comcast has bounced me off
- Forwarded Message - From: "2 - Dwight on COMCAST" To: "Cave Texas" Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 12:04:27 PM Subject: Comcast has bounced me off Comcast has bounced me off. Since I no longer get posts from Texas Cavers, I am posting this in the blind. Could the administrator contact me off list and advise if I have done the correct thing to get restablished? dirt...@comcast.net I am sure others have been caught by this. It also affected the SWR Caver.Net remailer. Steve Ball (SWR) wrote on 6/9/2014: A couple of the big email sites (hotmail, aol, comcast) have begun to get a little more strict on who they accept mail from, and unfortunately today, the server that sends you the caver.net lists found itself whacked by their checks. I've made some updates that should resolve things, and will be monitoring the situation in case it doesn't. So don't panic if you receive an email suggesting your subscription is disabled! Bill Bentley just wrote: I went in and reinstated everyone who had been disabled, I can not however re subscribe anyone who was automatically unsubscribed. I am assuming that I was not yet unsubscribed automatically from SWR, but it appears that I was from Texas Cavers. I will wait to see if I get more posts from SWR and will go back in and try to re-subscribe to Texas cavers. DirtDoc
[Texascavers] Comcast has bounced me off
Comcast has bounced me off. Since I no longer get posts from Texas Cavers, I am posting this in the blind. Could the administrator contact me off list and advise if I have done the correct thing to get restablished? dirt...@comcast.net I am sure others have been caught by this. It also affected the SWR Caver.Net remailer. Steve Ball (SWR) wrote on 6/9/2014: A couple of the big email sites (hotmail, aol, comcast) have begun to get a little more strict on who they accept mail from, and unfortunately today, the server that sends you the caver.net lists found itself whacked by their checks. I've made some updates that should resolve things, and will be monitoring the situation in case it doesn't. So don't panic if you receive an email suggesting your subscription is disabled! Bill Bentley just wrote: I went in and reinstated everyone who had been disabled, I can not however re subscribe anyone who was automatically unsubscribed. I am assuming that I was not yet unsubscribed automatically from SWR, but it appears that I was from Texas Cavers. I will wait to see if I get more posts from SWR and will go back in and try to re-subscribe to Texas cavers. DirtDoc
[SWR] Biological oddity found in cave lice
Biological oddity found in cave lice Here is an article that is definitely cave related and is of biological interest far beyond lice found in some caves. In fact, the strange minds of some cavers (NO ONE THAT I KNOW) might even be fascinated by what the researchers have learned. DirtDoc https://www.sciencenews.org/article/most-extreme-female-penis-found-cave-lice ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[Texascavers] Off topic - the Colorado earth flow.
Off topic - the Colorado earth flow. These events happen on occasion in this type of a geologic setting. This one was pretty spectacular. The rains and snowfall over the past days and likely weeks, even months, set the stage by saturating a large volume of poorly-consolidated material on a fairly steep slope. I don't have any real details, but listening to the reports, it sounds likely that the mass started to slowly move, opening cracks that then allowed additional heavy rains and irrigation water (from a failing canal) to further saturate the ground. That added water not only liquefied and lubricated the poorly consolidated earth but made it much heavier, urging it to move down hill. And it finally did. The attached video shows that at the head of the earth flow there is a large rotational slump block that slid down into the space where the flow originated. The earth flowed down the valley, initially filling it, and at one point more than filled it and flowed over the side of the valley extending down and off to the right in the video. The fluid material in the original valley continued to flow down the valley, lowering the amount of material left behind at that point, which shows the maximum depth of the flow were it extends out of the valley over impressive relief. Here is a good article from the LA Times that also has an embedded video (helicopter footage of the flow as they flew from the toe - bottom of the flow - uphill to where it started). http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-colorado-mudslide-footage-20140526-story.html Colorado mudslide: Astonishing footage shows miles of devastation Los Angeles Times After a day of aerial and ground searches, Colorado officials failed to find three men who vanished after a massive May 26 mudslide wiped out miles of uninhabited land on Grand Mesa, the largest flat-topped mountain in the world. The immense power and scope of the slide — which, according to rough estimates, could be as much as eight times larger than the landslide that killed at least 41 people in Snohomish County, Washington, in March — astonished Colorado officials who surveyed the area by air. DirtDoc
Re: [Texascavers] Re: [SWR] Ringing stones
I was in on the rebuild job. They said it had been a great idea but it didn't work right. - Original Message - From: "JAMES D EVATT" Cc: "2 - Dwight on COMCAST" Sent: Monday, May 26, 2014 5:17:26 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: [SWR] Ringing stones Doc, When I was knee-high to a diamondback, my folks finally relented to my badgering and took me to a commercial cave, my first underground adventure. I was hooked, lined, and sinkered right then and there. The cave was less than 100 miles from home, and mighty well-known even at that time. We lived in Towson Maryland. The year was 1950. I was 7 years old. The cave was Caverns of Luray. We had to park in the triangular parking lot in the farthest row from the concession building, even then. Waited over an hour for the tour. They had, as I remember, only about 6 notes working right on the Stalactapipe Organ. Passed my 50 year point with NSS last month. Haven't got my pin yet but as busy as they are in moving the headquarters, I'm not too worried. Jim
[Texascavers] Re: [SWR] Ringing stones
Interesting comments, Peter. Brings back an unusual memory. In the late 50's, when I was a student at RPI, I found myself touring Luray Caverns. An old guy with a rubber mallet and a tuning fork was thumping around in the cave. I wandered away from the tour and started talking to him. It turned out that his helper had some sort family emergency and I ended up being hired to assist him for most of a week. It was a very trial and error process. He thumped around with his little rubber mallet until he found the exact tone that he wanted. My job was to carefully mark the spot and label it as he instructed me. He had a check-sheet with the list of notes, and a detailed layout of the room so he could locate the right spot again. He was still at it when I left, but was down to a few elusive notes that he was trying to find. Yes, I have been back, and the results ARE impressive. I've always thought of it as the original surround sound. DirtDoc.
Re: [SWR] Background on the FOIA request to BLM
Again Harvey, well said. Cavers, please try to put yourselves in the boots the GOOD folks have to wear. There is a lot more going on here than Bat Fungus. You should certainly disagree and point out the scientific errors, but outright hostility will hurt your cause, and not help the caves. Try to plan for the long run -. The caves, after all, are being preserved for the next generation of cavers. THAT is good. DirtDoc ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[SWR] Human migration into North America
Human migration into North America I have missed a number of the discussions on SW Cavers and the Texas remailer, but this is largely a response to Donald. Hope I am not stepping on some previous posts that I have missed. Donald, this has been a side interest of mine since my anthro days at UNM, but I don't keep rigorously abreast of the latest confirmed data. There has been lots of conjecture, discussions, and fist-fights over the ideas of how and when the Native Americans got here. The last decade has brought the advent of DNA identification and that, coupled with more accepted dating of archaeological sites and linguistics studies are starting to give us some answers. The bottom line is that most of the major ideas of how humans spread from Asia start to make sense to me. The only major theory that fails is the idea that there was a significant influx from the east, across the Atlantic: the so-called " Solutrean Theory". Any input from that source does not seem to have had an impact on the Native DNA, prior to the coming of Europeans after 1492. Lots of the story remains to be unraveled, but the following seems to be shaking out. The August 12, 2013 issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science (referenced in the Sept 21, 2013 issue of Science News) https://www.sciencenews.org/article/dna-reveals-details-peopling-americas The article stated that mitochondrial DNA combined with more traditional archaeology (especially language studies) pretty conclusively shows that there were three major times of migration of peoples into the Americas from Asia. There were numerous individual groups that came east and south during each of these broad periods of migration. 18,000-15,000 years ago (perhaps even a bit earlier): by sea in small boats down the Pacific Coast line all the way to the tip of South America, spreading inland. This seeded both North and Central America and all of South America with humans. The South American DNA remained distinct from the DNA brought by later migrations into North America. All the Native Americans seem to have DNA that traces back to a child known as the Mal’ta boy, who lived near central Siberia’s Lake Baikal 24,000 years ago. This was reported in November 20, 2013 issue of Nature (summary : https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ancient-siberian-bones-clarify-native-american-origins). 14,000 to 10,000 years ago the opening ice-free corridor in the Canadian Rockies allowed influx of big game hunters and other hunter-gatherers to move south from the Arctic. This appears to have provided the dominant wash of DNA of most North American natives, from the west coast, high plains (including the Clovis peoples), down the Mississippi Valley to the Gulf, as well as east to Nova Scotia, all along the east coast and (by some path) into Florida. This is the dominant DNA stock of North American natives south of the Arctic. This group can also trace their DNA back to Mal’ta boy, but did not make it across Central America to South America. There appear to be distinctive differences in the DNA between North and South America. Starting about 4,000 years ago, modern Inuit spread east across the Arctic (northern Canada) to Greenland. DNA from the only well-documented Clovis burial, a baby who died some 12,600 years ago, strongly indicates that this individual represents the influx from Asia after the opening of the ice-free corridor. The data reported in the Feb. 13, 2014 issue of Nature (summarized in the March 22, 2014 issue of Science News https://www.sciencenews.org/article/clovis-baby%E2%80%99s-genome-unveils-native-american-ancestry ) suggests that the Clovis people and all present-day Native North Americans came from the same genetic stock. The article does not specifically relate the Clovis DNA to the South American populations or to Naia, but I am sure someone is busily doing this. I await the results, but it fits into the general story that is emerging. If confirmed, this study does put to rest the idea of the Solutrean hypothesis, that ancient Europeans crossed the Atlantic and established the Clovis culture in the New World. Naia, the Hoyo Negro girl who inspired the latest round of posts, fits into this somehow. It sounds to me as if they are still trying to fit her DNA into the above story. Ancient Cave Skeleton Sheds Light on Early American Ancestry 5/15/2014 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2014/05/15/ancient-cave-skeleton-sheds-light-on-early-american-ancestry/#.U3d0pyhJikw Hope this helps. Dwight ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[Texascavers] Opinion, based on observations and not facts
If you have not read Harvey's comments, do that first (see below) so mine may make more sense "Opinion, based on observations and not facts" Something very similar was once said about the role of hydrogen sulfide in the origin of some caves. Well-thought out, Harvey. And written well. Add to your comments my own observations that not all managers are especially benevolent. They take actions to benefit their own power base or pathway to advancement within the system. That said, individuals who really care about caves and karst in these Agencies do, indeed, find it difficult (if not impossible) to do the "right thing" for the caves. Cavers, when faced with management obstacles, should keep your comments in mind. Caving on public lands in this country has clearly changed in fundamental ways. This Bat Fungus thing has impinged on cave management decisions in the East as well as western Federal lands. You and I are among those whose lives were fundamentally changed by our exploration of caves. In our lifetime, cavers have successfully brought the importance of this resource to public attention in ways that far transcend simple tourism. That has resulted in management awareness of cave- and karst-related problems and led to sometimes-difficult decisions, not the least of which have to do with Bat Fungus. When they are not sure what to do, managers may be well advised to error on the conservative side and shut things down. I don't like that, but it could be the best thing for the caves and future generations of cavers. Caves are not a very renewable resource. Cavers are. Dwight Deal - Original Message - From: "DuChene, Harvey" Cc: "Cave NM" Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2014 10:51:02 AM Subject: Re: [SWR] Oklahoma removed from list of suspected bat fungus areas The following statements are opinion, based on observations and not facts. I want this understood up-front. The Federal Agencies that manage caves are strapped for money. This has been going on for years – things like required raises for employees, cost of doing business and running an agency, etc. have risen faster than budgets have increased. BLM, NPS and USDA Forest Service have to pare their spending in order to meet the budgets allocated to them by Congress. WNS presents these agencies with a dilemma, and paradoxically, an opportunity. It costs money to manage caves. Essentially, the National Cave Protection Act was initially an unfunded mandate. Now it costs Agencies money to inventory and manage cave resources. It requires people, vehicle use, computers, GPS units, software and a lot of other things I don’t know about. WNS has give managers in these agencies an opportunity to “save” money by closing caves, allegedly to “protect” bats. This could result in reduction everyday management costs. Good people that all of us know in these Agencies have their hands tied by managers who know little about cave resources but a lot about politics and money management. The WNS controversy is as much about Federal Agency Fiscal Policy as it is about controlling the spread of a fungus that infects bats. The Agencies are ultimately limited to the funds Congress gives them to run their business, so they are constantly on the watch for places to save money. Cavers cannot win this argument. However, they can vote, and if you want to see the Federal Agencies receive more funding so they can properly operate, then elect senators and representatives that agree with you. I fear that, for those of us who are older, our days of caving on public lands in this country are essentially over. Unwittingly, this is an unanticipated result of pushing through the National Cave Protection Act 30 or so years ago. The lesson here is “ Be careful what you wish for … .” Purely my opinions, but food for thought. Harvey DuChene
Re: [Texascavers] "No Place On Earth" airing
Louise: NetFlix is another choice. DirtDoc
Re: [Texascavers] "No Place On Earth" airing
The film IS quite good and moving. We highly recommend seeing it, whether you sit next to Mixon or not. It is also available from NetFlix for home viewing DirtDoc
Re: [Texascavers] Looking for contacts in Croatia and neighboring countries
Thomas Sitch [mailto:dreadfl...@yahoo.com] Hi Thomas: Frenc Facija, a caver in Slovenia, operates a speleocamp near Laze with both a bunkhouse and campsites for visiting cavers. He is a very active caver with many contacts through the caving community. franc.fac...@siol.net , i...@speleocamp.com There are some images of Frenc and his facility on page 7 of http://www.focusedtours.com/images/Slovene-Karst%20final%201-30-09.pdf (It may take a moment to download the PDF file) We are currently in Terlingua, but plan to return home to Denver in early May. I think I have an extra copy of Ian Bishop's Cave Guide to Slovenia which I purchased from him in 2006. Ian has passed on and the publication is out of print. Let me know if you would be interested in obtaining that extra copy. DirtDoc
[SWR] thoughts during insomnia
More likely it's the heavy metals from all those cans of Skinner brand spaghetti ----- DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Lee H. Skinner" To: s...@caver.net, "John Corcoran" , "texascavers list" Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 2:59:13 PM Subject: [Texascavers] Re: [SWR] My late night thoughts during insomnia Thanks, John. Yes, it's probably a side effect of my DNA. Regards, Lee Lee, You have a creative, but twisted mind! Regards, John ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[SWR] True cavers
You will recall that I never claimed to be a "true caver". Dwight - Original Message - From: "Harvey DuChene" To: "Jim Evatt" Cc: dirt...@comcast.net Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 10:46:53 AM Subject: RE: [SWR] Big Room Jim, You are easily shocked, I guess. I was young and naïve when I heard the DirtDoc say that “No True Caver Wears Kneepads.” This impressed me greatly, until I found out that some people, who shall remain nameless, sewed kneepads into the INSIDE of their coverall pant legs. You can imagine how devastated I was to learn this truth. Caving was never the same for me after that discovery. I did not choose to comment because the memory of my humiliation is too painful. You brought it up, scraping open the old wound. I may never recover… . Katy contacted me several months ago after seeing the reprint of the elegy I wrote for Tom Meador. She and her husband came to Lake City and visited us. What a surprise and a great treat. I always wore a brain bucket when riding my Red Dragon named Harley and assuming my alter identity as “The Daring but Resourceless Masked Rider of the Plains.” HD From: Jim Evatt [mailto:nmca...@comcast.net] Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 9:10 AM To: Harvey DuChene Subject: Re: [SWR] Big Room Harv, I’m SHOCKED you did not comment on the statement that “No true cavers wear kneepads.” Kind of like Harley etc. riders who refuse to wear headpads (a/k/a brain buckets). Shows you what’s really important to who, eh? ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[SWR] Big Room
Big Room Well, Lee, you DO know that in a number of caves I have found pretty little rooms. In fact, I think you followed my instructions into one in the past, and grunting your way out (having given up trying to turn around in it), did agree that yes, it WAS pretty little. This small reminder from the one who also brought you the admonishment in the 60s that "No True Cavers Wear Kneepads!" (We will leave "suck holes" alone -) DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Lee H. Skinner" To: "SWR Mailing List" , "texascavers list" Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2014 1:59:01 AM Subject: [Texascavers] My late night thoughts during insomnia An observation about Karstbad Cavern: "The cave swallows cave swallows." If blow holes are barometric, why aren't half of them called suck holes? If "The Big Room" is a common name for a passage in caves, why isn't "The Little Room"? Do walking passages ever run or even stop walking? Ever try to thread a gypsum needle? Why aren't there more helicmites? Or cattooth spar? or calcite yachts? Are fried egg stalagmites usually found with bacon? Does any cave have a Gnu Section? Where is Sinkhole de Mayo? Is a filled in sinkhole called a sinkwhole? Group names: herd, flock, pride, school, swarm, covey, murder, bevy, etc. But what would you call a group of cavers? I would suggest: column as cavers generally go single file, and it makes one think of a type of speleothem as well. Lee Skinner ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [Texascavers] Fwd: A Cavers Cookbook
There are Bill's Campfire Beans a la 1991. They can also be wired to the exhaust manifold of an appropriate caving vehicle. DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Mixon Bill" To: "Cavers Texas" Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2014 9:20:06 AM Subject: [Texascavers] Fwd: A Cavers Cookbook I'm pretty much at a loss. My thing for cave-trip cookery is putting a can of chili in the edge of the campfire. But I've seen evidence of creativity in others around here. --Mixon Begin forwarded message: From: BRYANT BETSILL < bryantbets...@comcast.net > Date: March 28, 2014 12:08:24 PM CDT To: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu Subject: A Cavers Cookbook Subject: Cavers Cookbook Dear Mr. Mixon, I have seen your name in the NSS NEWS over the decades and now I have cause to write to you. I am a bit thrilled and honored if you reply. I am A. Bryant Betsill of Fayetteville, GA member 23453, author of a few articles for the NSS NEWS back in the day, author of the Boy Scouts of America "Venture" Caving program circa 1991, author of five books available through Amazon.com, author of an article for the Georgia EMC magazine. Movie critic for the Bent Tree, the campus newspaper for Clayton State University, circa way back. I am interested in composing a cookbook with recipes suitable for either in cave or outside the cave, and include any amusing or instructive dialogue the contributor might have. For example, I have a recipe for Howard's Waterfall Hodag Stew and the story of the inquisition from a property owner before getting access to Mill Cave in Middle Tennessee all while I was wearing cargo shorts, flip flops and the SERA Hot Pink tee shirt. As I said, I will collect, edit, re-write where needed, absorb any publishing cost and make it available to the NSS Bookstore at wholesale cost only. I'll not make a dime on it. I need cavers to send me their stories, recipes, and any black and white drawings that might go along with the contribution. Can you send along a story? Or refer me along to someone that might submit something? Thanks Bryant Betsill Nicht durch Zorn, sondern durch Lachen tötet man. Not by wrath does one kill, but by laughter. Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spoke Zarathustra If you can't say something nice, come and sit by me. You may "reply" to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org
[Texascavers] Dr. Veni Speaks
Dr. George Veni presented a well-attended lecture on the Sul Ross State University campus in Alpine this afternoon : Living With Karst: The Benefits and Challenges of Living in a Cavernous Environment . The Geology Club had plastered the local communities with advertisements in print and on Marfa Public Radio. The audience included Sul Ross students, staff, local environmentalists, Park Service folks, and residents from Alpine, Marfa, Ft. Davis, and Terlingua. Even one of the early Sul Ross Cavers from the 60s, Elbert Bassham, attended. One person did seem disappointed as he misread the subtitle as "Cadevarous" and failed to get the hints expected on the preparation of road kill. A reception followed, as did a dinner honoring the speaker at a local establishment of Great Repute. DirtDoc
[SWR] The Rest of the Story
See below - Original Message - From: "Louise Power" To: "texas cavers" Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 6:26:17 PM Subject: [Texascavers] Favorite crawl My favorite crawl was The Corkscrew in Midnight Cave on one of my early trips to CV. I didn't find it a particularly hard crawl except that I got a little claustrophobic. But what made it stand out in my mind was that someone (don't remember who) had taken their speleopups into the cave. As I was making my down the crawl, I heard some noise behind me and four furry feet planted themselves in the middle of my back and a speleodog went right over me and out of the crawl. Guess he didn't want to wait while I made my way down. --- The Rest Of The Story That was a memorable weekend at Carta Valley, camped inside the long-gone Triangle. Probably in the late 1960s. It was a dark and stormy night, as chronicled by Carl Kunath in his 50 Years of Texas Caving. Trucks and assorted vehicles arrived and found themselves parked nose-in, in a ragged circle. Tarps were strung from truck to truck, cavers sitting on the warm (initially) hoods and speleo-bumpers in the center. Louise arrived in her VW beetle. Jon Everage arrived from Houston with a case of odd-lot bargain wine from the get rid of it quick basket - a buck a chuck. Bottles of various unmemorable vintage were passed about the assembled cavers. Stories grew, songs were sung, and bladders filled as it continued to rain. After Sandy and I turned in, Louise decided she had found a dry spot under Tortuga. (See Kunath for complete description of why she found herself so wet in the morning). The next morning the rain had stopped and we visited with Doc Harding. Then off to Midnight Cave. Both Crooked Thumb and Woola were along, as were students from Sul Ross. Pete Lindsley was there and also stalwart Carta Valley Texicans. Crooked Thumb (the Truffle Hound) was the much more experienced caving and climbing dog. He was used to waiting patiently as I climbed up a distance and then signaled him, whereupon he would scramble up over me, using me for toe and claw-holds, and continue upward. We started up the Corkscrew, and from Louise's post, she must have been ahead of me (although I remember being in the lead). Crooked Thumb suddenly clawed his way up and around me (he failed to wait for my signal) and continued ahead, up the Corkscrew. He disappeared on up into the cave. Woola (the Norwegian Elkhouhd) less adept, followed. Dimnly, In the far distance, I hear voices of someone we did not know was in the cave: "Did you hear that?" "Someone is coming behind us!" "G--- D---IT!" " IT'S A DOG!" "SH---!!! HERE COMES ANOTHER ONE!!" It turned out that there were four young people ahead of us. Doc Harding's son and some friends. DirtDoc ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[SWR] A New Thread: Crawlways
I agree with some other story-tellers. - I have been through so many tight crawls in so many caves that only one stands out. And that was my first one. A young, beginning caver, I had been in perhaps 3 wild caves, when Dick Eggleston and I (RPI Outing Club) went to Knox Cave in New York in 1956. The Gunbarrel is infamous to NE cavers, and we knew it was there. And that we simply HAD to pass through it. But the reality was daunting. It is 47 feet long, the northern half averages around 10 inches by 14 inches, and it has a slot in the floor as you start in, making the beginning almost key-hole shaped in cross section. Whatever way you stick your arms in first, that's the way they will stay until you emerge. Most misleadingly, there is the "extension", a short segment preserved before you start, in an isolated ceiling block. I remember looking at the extension and saying to myself: "I can do that." Misleading because the "extension" is larger than the main portion of the Gunbarrel. Which also has a tight spot about half-way through to separate those who can from those who cannot. My reaction when I saw the thing was "You gottta be kidding!", but neither Dick nor I would admit that out loud. Here are some images: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7j3tjqnuwait54j/m8mkrTK3zx First two are self portraits taken looking through the misleadingly large "extension". Then a B&W of Dick grunting his way back out at the end of our round trip to the "back". Finally, a view of the far end with a caver emerging into the far reaches of the cave. My thanks to Art Palmer for reminding me of the true dimensions of the Gunbarrel, and for providing the final image of a caver emerging successfully from the far end. Now, you realize, you will have to go back through the thing. The good thought is that we did do it once, just to get here! Although I have been very cautious of tight crawlways ever since, none have been as daunting nor filled me with as much horrifying anticipation since. DirtDoc ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [Texascavers] March NSS News cover model
Congratulations Fofo!. I'll bet that David (Bunnell) can get you an image file of the cover. He (Dave Bunnell) is just off to the Galapagos for a month, so you might have to wait a bit. DirtDoc
Re: [Texascavers] hand-warmth powered flashlight
On the way to Terlingua two days ago, I passed through Roswell. It is obvious that if the heat-powered LED light is actually feasible from a heat/watt/LED whatever engineering standpoint, that a heat source for a headlamp is not a problem. The aliens had the no-hands problem solved. A simple cable from your britches to the headlamp should not be difficult to engineer. Dirtdoc.
[Texascavers] Mystery cave
Damn it Pete!! You are getting OLD! (I should talk) I give David kudos for this idea. It does have something vaguely related to caves and karst. Oh --- I won't do Facebook, either. Doctor of Dirt
[Texascavers] Mystery Cave #2
Mystery Cave #2 OK David and you other Texicans. This is also the entrance to a Texas cave. The scenery in the background will give you the clue that it is not very close to Houston. The rancher is the guy with his back toward you on the right - wearing the c'boy hat. It will be interesting to see who comes up with the correct answer, and THEN find out if they actually have been there -. DirtDoc https://www.dropbox.com/s/gcyxfeo87ogpjnj/Mystery%20cave%20%232.jpg
Re: [Texascavers] Food for caving trips
Mud is GOOD. So is charcoal. Gets rid of the carbide. But whatever you do, do not eat beans. Even with hot sauce. Dirtdoc
[Texascavers] climbing for a living
The view IS good. In Wyoming I could see "forever". My observation is that it is a bit different these days. A whole bunch of mandated "safety" guidelines preclude just doing it with your climbing ropes and accustomed hardware and techniques. And yes, Bill, I have outgrown it entirely. DirtDoc
[Texascavers] climbing for a living
FYI - I never made my "living" climbing towers, but I certainly made some excellent and welcomed income using my climbing skills painting microwave and radio towers when I was in college -- ---- DirtDoc
[Texascavers] Texas Memorial Museum demise
Ron: Jerks. Perhaps "College of Unnatural Sciences"?? Send me the petition to sign, if it will still do any good. Your E-mail said January 15, which was two days ago. Send it via e-mail, we are not at the moment in Terlingua. We are on our way to the karst of Cuba - back in Feb. Dwight Dwight Deal dirt...@comcast.net PO Box 10 Terlingua, TX 79852 - Original Message - From: "Ron Ralph" To: jputnam1...@att.net Cc: "Texas Cavers" Sent: Friday, January 17, 2014 12:56:39 PM Subject: [Texascavers] Texas Memorial Museum demise Mary, How did it go giving the petition to Dean Hicke?
Re: [Texascavers] In Quest of the Rim of Hell
That's not it. I have THE THREE BURIALS and have been on the ranch before Tommy Lee bought it. That is also a modern film. "Rim" was filmed back in the late 60s and involved some Sul Ross cavers. Even Mike Cusack (who filmed it and lives today outside of Fredricksburg) does not have a copy. But thanks, Ted. Dwight - Original Message - From: "Ted Samsel" To: dirt...@comcast.net Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 8:29:54 AM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] In Quest of the Rim of Hell Interesting.. What about Tommy Lee Jones' THE THREE BURIALS OF MELQUIADES ESTRADA? Or is that too far west?
Re: [Texascavers] Jacob's Well
Jacob's Well. Ah,yes. To see what is beyond the gate, you should read Jacob's Well by Stephen Harrigan . Those cavers that I hired to work on the Texas Natural Areas Survey (which helped get Devil's Sinkhole, the Lower Canyons, Mt. Livermore, Devil's River, Big Bend Ranch State Park, Enchanted Rock, and other places set aside in the Public Domain) will recognize slightly-disguised cavers and their colleagues from the70s. Not only is Dwight Deal the heroic (although flawed) model for the geologist, you can recognize parts of Ronnie Fieseler, Tom Byrd, and Ron Ralph, Gary Moore, and certainly remember the Lady Archaeologist who did field work in the nude. DirtDoc
[SWR] Jewel Cave
Most of the readers aren't either -- (I wonder if their grammar is as good as mine?) DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Mark Minton" To: s...@caver.net, texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2013 11:03:54 AM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Re: [SWR] Jewel Cave Nice article, but the author isn't very good at math: ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[SWR] Follow-up on the NGS Film: Mystery Caves Of Guangxi
Follow-up on the NGS Film: Mystery Caves Of Guangxi
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiYn-DeQjL8
For additional maps, cross-sections, and photographs of the spectacular Leye
Karst, including Mawangdong Cave, Bandong Tienkeng, and the through-cave
photographed in this movie, see page 3 of the Leye-Fengshan Geopark, Sanmenhai
Karst Tourguide
http://www.naturalarches.org/files/LeyeFengshanGeoparkChina.pdf
Cavers will find this additional data interesting.
Videographers will better appreciate the skill of those manning the camera and
doing the editing. At the time this film was shot, the Leye-Fengshan Geopark
was well-developed for tourism. It must have been a real challenge NOT to show
more of the tourist trails, stairs, guardrails, roads, and other developments
in the finished film. It also appears that the ("mysterious") origin of the
huge collapse dolines featured in the film was well explained in
English-language interpretive signs and brochures to be read by visitors
(including the National Geographic Explorers) at the time they visited the
caves and shot the film.
FYI: The National Geographic Channel (NGC) is jointly owned by Fox Cable
Networks and National Geographic Television & Film. They are acknowledged as
producing documentaries with factual content and "pseudo-scientific
entertainment programming" on NGC (Wikipedia). This film appears to be a
documentary enhanced with exaggerated mystery and danger.
My contacts in China point out that the video is providing lots of publicity
for the Leye-Fengshan Geopark, which is likely to make it easier (but probably
more expensive) for future expeditions to get permission to cave in those
areas.
DirtDoc ___
SWR mailing list
s...@caver.net
http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr
___
This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[SWR] Jewel Cave
Jewel Cave A rather nice article on Jewel Cave today (Sunday 8 Dec 2013) in the Rapid City Journal. http://web.mail.comcast.net/service/home/~/jewel%20cave%20article%20-%20rc%20journal%20dec%208%202013.pdf?auth=co&loc=en_US&id=640314&part=2 DirtDoc ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [Texascavers] Tienkengs
Thanks, Jerry. It is not surprising that more big collapse dolines fitting the size definition of Prof. Zhu will be found on Earth. Remember that the size definition has nothing directly to do with origin and "tiankeng" is not a useful karst term (in my opinion) unless you are selling tourism or ego. But the term, like "spelunker", is going to be with us for quite a while. Your comments about rivers (or lack thereof) underneath the big collapse dolines in Mexico is interesting. There obviously had to be some process in the past to remove the huge volume of limestone to form the feature. Certainly the big ones that I have visited (including the father of them all, Škocjanske jame in Slovenia) all have a serious cave river beneath them to cart the stuff off. I have thought about Golindrinas and wondered about the mechanism there. Perhaps no one has gotten down below the bottom far enough to find the underlying stream passage. Perhaps the process of formation is a bit different and slower, and/or may not be active today. Size itself has nothing to do with how the thing formed. Size is descriptive only. Good science requires that you do not co-mingle description with genesis. That is why geologists separate the terms "gravel:" and "conglomerate" (descriptive) from "stream deposit" (genetic). That gives us something to figure out. Ain't Science Grand! DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Jerry" To: dirt...@comcast.net, s...@caver.net, Texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 2:33:52 AM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Tienkengs Thanks for the information, Dwight. For what it's worth, there are several more "tienkengs', as defined by Xuewen and Waltham (2006), in Mexico. I note that only two were recognized in the following references. I'm not sure it is worth informing anyone of this fact as tiankengs are really just large collapse dolines as you point out. Of interest is the fact that the majority of "tiankeng" features in Mexico do not have river systems at their base. Jerry.
Re: [SWR] Tienkengs
Very informative explanation! Even without having been to the Chinese karst, I could smell the hype. Nothing seemed that unusual about these features other than the exceptional size, and the implication that this was just now being discovered seemed improbable, to say the least, when one of the scenes shows a constructed guardrail overlooking the pit, and in others, trails or roads are clearly visible above. Shame on NGS. --Donald x Glad you found that useful, Donald. FYI It appears that Figure 1 of Tiankengs: Definition and Description, 2006, Zhu Xuewen and Tony Waltham http://www.speleogenesis.info/directory/karstbase/pdf/seka_pdf9541.pdf shows EXACTLY the "mystery cave" in the Leye Karst that this film is all about. (Note that "Bandong" and "Baidong" are likely the same when you read the Chinese characters or pronounce then in Mandarin - there are all sorts of problems trying to write Mandrin in English, and then trying to figure out by reading the English translations if the names are really the same in Mandarin). Maoqui Dong is the "incipient tienkeng" that they first rappelled into. What a true mystery it was for their 2013 expedition! DirtDoc ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[SWR] Tienkengs
Tienkengs National Geographic - Mystery Caves Of Guangxi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiYn-DeQjL8 A production of the National Geographic Channel in conjunction with Chinese television CCTV-9 I have been asked to provide some clarification for the US caving community about the use of the term "tiankeng". As many of you know, I have been leading karst-focused tours for geologists and cavers and have first-hand knowledge of Chinese karst since 1993. The cavers staring in the film have clearly had a wonderful time in a spectacular area courtesy of National Geographic. The film does a good job of explaining the area to the general public, and conveying the wonder and excitement of exploring the karst of SW China. This is a spectacular and interesting film. It is also contains some unnecessary (in my opinion) exaggeration and self-promotion from National Geographic. Anyone in the caving community who has been to the spectacular karst areas of China recognizes the hyperbole. National Geographic seems either to have done a poor research job (unlikely) or made a deliberate decision to add additional "mystery" and danger to some of the most spectacular karst on Earth. These are clearly world-class caves. Cave scientists have understood how these huge pits are created for over a hundred years. First described from the Dinaric Karst, known in China since 1992, explored in China by the Cave Research Expedition in 1993 (that was before the Funny Word "tienkeng" had been coined), and explored extensively in China by the Hong Meigui Cave Exploration Society (Erin Lynch) since 2001, the British Cave Research Foundation , and others. These large limestone pits have been found all over the world. Simply, they are unusually large collapse dolines. They become large when there is a good-sized underground river to keep extracting the breakdown blocks that fall underground. In this part of China there is stratigraphically over 7 miles (total thickness) of soluble limestone, high topographic relief, and it rains a whole lot to produce the groundwater that dissolves the limestone. Fracture traces in the limestone likely relate to the specific location of these pits, just as they do for millions of other cave passages around the world. The public perception and misunderstanding about tienkengs has been caused by prominent Chinese geologist who arbitrarily made up the word "tienkeng" (Sky Hole or Heavenly Pit) for exceptionally large collapse dolines. He defined them as collapse dolines that are more than 100 wide and deep. This is a completely arbitrary term. It is just like using the word "skyscraper" for tall buildings and "megabuilding" for the very tallest one. Then you can claim that you city has the only megabuilding in the world. It has allowed the Chinese to make a Big Deal out of the fact that they do, indeed, have a lot (more than 50) impressively gigantic collapse dolines in their country. There are numerous references to these large pits in China that have been written over the last 20 years, some accurate, some with included hyperbole. Here is where to start: Tiankengs: Definition and Description, 2006, Zhu Xuewen and Tony Waltham http://www.speleogenesis.info/directory/karstbase/pdf/seka_pdf9541.pdf This is a summary paper that concludes: The concept of tiankeng karst has been considered within China as a term to describe an extremely mature type of karst landscape that has matured beyond normal fengcong karst with high relief. The term could be used to describe the Leye karst in Guangxi, China, and perhaps the Nakanai karst in New Britain, Papua New Guinea, both of which are distinguished by unusually large numbers of tiankengs. However, some mature karst terrains contain just a few tiankengs, notably just two in each of the karsts of Xingwen, Croatia and Mexico, and these question the applicability of the term. Tiankeng karst may be purely descriptive of the Leye and Nakanai terrains, but the term has not yet been shown to have any geomorphological status with reference to karst evolution. Also: For a list of 33 "tienkengs" known to exist outside China in 2004 (including El Sotano and Golindrinas in Mexico: www.speleogenesis.info/directory/karstbase/pdf/seka_pdf9540.pdf Special Issue: Tiankengs Transactions of the British Cave Research Association: Cave and Karst Science: V. 32, n. 2&3 (in one volume). Descriptions of the giant collapse dolines in China and the Wulong Karst World Heritage site. Intro: http://www.speleogenesis.info/pdf/SG9/SG9_artId3289.pdf The Mother Of All collapse Dolines is Xiaozhai, close to the Yangtzee River, just south of the first of the Three Gorges. Down-cutting by the Yangtze has created the great relief found in the area. Xiaozhai is 662 meters deep (measured by the Chinese to obtain maximum depth) and has a trail (with many steps) to the bottom, where a diversion tun
Re: [SWR] Fwd: icicles and stal
I have described halitetites from underground excavations in rock salt. But they are pure saltcicles from saturated brine. DirtDoc ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[Texascavers] In Quest of the Rim of Hell
I have seemingly exhausted most other possibilities and so I ask the august body of older Texas Cavers if one of you might have either an arcane memory and an actual hard or digital copy of something from the late 60s. This DOES have a tie to Texas caves and cavers, albeit a bit tangential. Less so that other topics that drive folks away from this forum. At least this involves Real Cavers and an almost-real cave (at least it is a collapse into one that once was: Terlingua Sinkhole). The quest: For a copy of a movie titled " Rim Of Hell ". This may have been filmed on 16 mm film, I am not sure. It was written and directed by Frank Dobbs (of later greater fame, including Lonesome Dove and a series of later movies filmed in the Lajitas-Terlingua area); Mike Cusack Producer and Cinematographer (also of Greater Fame). This was filmed sometime around 1966-1968 in Terlingua, and involved at least three cavers: Ring Huggins, Bill Wright, and Fred Meyer, at that time caving with the Sul Ross Cave Club. The story I have from Ring and Fred, told and retold over the years and repeated to me last week in Terlingua (with only slight variations): Ring was the Snake Wrangler who, after innumerable tries finally succeeded in pissing off a reasonably-sized rattled enough to strike at him; Fred and Bill were "technical support" who tried to get the actors to rappel into Terlingua Sink, without success. "You gotta be kidding!", the actors said. The story I hear is that Fred then successfully got the cinematographer down to the bottom of the sink (Mike Cusack), and Bill was recruited on the spot as the stunt double to rappel so he could be photographed from below. Bill rappelled in, zipping down the rope as was his normal fashion, to the horror of the producer and director. They made both Fred and Bill climb out and do it a few more times in a much more hesitant and unsure fashion. "Geeze! You're supposed to be SCARED!" This is not to be confused with the later film Disciples of Death (distributed at least in part under the title "Enter the Devil" in 1972), by the same producer and director. I have a poor copy of that: a VHS which is supposed to have been made from a 16-mm version that I digitized (if anyone is interested) some time ago. That was a Grade Z horror movie filmed at the old Waldron Mine shortly after Glen Pepper started to develop the Villa de la Mina and is fun to watch for those that knew the Villa in the early daze. That's when the "alter" was built in the big room in the mine but before Glen had built much of the outbuildings and guest quarters. Now-historic images of the old steel bridge on the county road, the gas pump (then still functional) at the Lajitas Trading Post, Brewster County Courthouse, and more. Sandy and I actually watched what was claimed to be "the world premier" of Disciples of Death at a drive in movie theater in San Antonio. Backed Tortuga One in, honky chairs and a cooler. A Hoot and a half-!. I have copies of more than 10 films made using some locations in the Terlingua-Lajitas area and would like to add this (supposedly "that first one", but not sure I believe that). Includes Uphill all the Way (great fun with Roy Clark, Mel Tillis, Glen Campbell, Burl Ives), John Sayles' 1996 movie Lone Star; as well as Dead Man’s Walk and Streets of Laredo, which were part of the Lonesome Dove series, part of Kenny Rogers The Gambler series, and a couple of Willie Nelson productions. I have been in contact with both Mike Cusack and Frank Binney on this quest, so far with no luck. I would appreciate it if anyone could point the way to actually obtaining a copy of " Rim of Hell ", or have stories from their involvement or knowledge of the filming (Carl Kunath, Bob Oakley?). Please share with me. Probably best off-line so as not to irritate the serious, cave-tunnel-vision, newbie Texas Cavers. DirtDoc
[SWR] Tom Meador Award
good idea, Harv! DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Harvey DuChene" To: "Bill Bentley" , "Steve Peerman" Cc: s...@caver.net, "jen ." Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 9:07:49 AM Subject: Re: [SWR] PBSS member Kayde Hill wins "Chuck Stuehm Award" at the Texas Cavers Reunion I recommend naming the award for legendary Tom Meador! ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[Texascavers] Poison-ivy and Karst
Poison-ivy and Karst How cave related can you get?? (I'll do everything I can to get this site back on track) I grew up in New York and was terribly allergic to poison ivy as a youngster. Like, someone burned some brush with the vines in the pile, a half-mile away. Good Lord, was I ever in an awful itchy situation after the smoke passed over me -- . Fortunately my lungs did not react. When I started to do karst and geological things in upstate NY, I discovered two things: 1. To see the bedrock I had to crawl on my belly like a snake up stream beds. 2. I could map the limestone without ever seeing it, just by mapping where the lush poison ivy grew. (THAT is the Karst tie-in) After I came West, I could more easily see Rocks and I gradually lost my extreme reaction. But I learned what George cautioned: Immunity is lost by repeated exposure. Then I moved to Texas and discovered Poison Oak. It makes TREES going up the cliffs with trunks as big around as Bob Oakley's thighs around springs in the Big Bend. ESPECIALLY in what is now Big Bend Ranch State Park.
Re: [Texascavers] Concrete Arrows mark Transcontinental Air Mail Route
Woops, sorry about that. I did not mean for that to go out to the whole list. Dirtdoc. - Original Message - From: dirt...@comcast.net To: "Cave Texas" Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 5:17:37 PM Subject: [Texascavers] Concrete Arrows mark Transcontinental Air Mail Route
[Texascavers] Concrete Arrows mark Transcontinental Air Mail Route
Geez, Ronnie!!! That was 54 years ago. I'm thinking it was south of Highway 30. We were all over the place, but mostly some distance north (where they were not) in the Red Desert. As I recall the airport is south of the highway at Rock Springs, and I think one may have been west of the town but south of the highway, toward the Unintas (on the flight path to Salt Lake City). What airport were they flying into at Slat Lake City? There may have been another one between Rawlins and Rock Springs, possibly just north of Hwy 30. But I am not at all sure. If there was one between Rawlins and Rock Springs, it would have been fairly close to the highway - either north or south. Most likely gone by now. I checked with my buddy Al Zimer, and he reminded me that my memory is so good that it could have been somewhere NE of Laramie to the west of the mountains. There is a caver-pilot living in Saratoga who flys all along that route, so you might contact him. David Worthington. . David is a good friend who has traveled with us to the Balkans and China, and helped build the addition to our squat in Terlingua. He's been down there (South Brewster) numerous times. You can tell him you chopped up my best, brand new, and barely afforded, Illiad Paddle killing a gar on one of our Lower Canyons trips in my C-2. Send him the original e-mail with the images and try to recruit him to assist your brother. I think he could be game. Have your brother talk to the County Surveyor. That's the best bet I can think of. Let me know the results of your effort. Dwight - Forwarded Message - From: "Ronald G Fieseler" To: dirt...@comcast.net Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 9:08:54 AM Subject: RE: Concrete Arrows mark Transcontinental Air Mail Route Hi Dwight, Do you remember if they were north of I-80 and/or the railroad? Any other road names, etc. that you might recall? Wamsutter, Table Rock, Red Desert, etc? I am trying to use Google Earth to locate one or more. My brother lives in Rock Springs and I will also try to sic him on this search. Any clues or other old rusty memories will be helpful. Thanks! Fieseler From: dirt...@comcast.net [mailto:dirt...@comcast.net] Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 10:43 PM To: lmcn...@austin.rr.com Cc: Denis Breining; Ron Fieseler; Ron Miller; Katherine McClure; Bill Elliott Subject: Re: Concrete Arrows mark Transcontinental Air Mail Route I saw two of them back in 1959 in the Red Desert when I was working on a seismograph crew out of Rawlins and Rock Springs, Wyo. None of us knew what they were at first, but our landman figured it out. DirtDoc - Forwarded Message - From: "Logan McNatt" < lmcn...@austin.rr.com > To: "Dwight Deal" < dirt...@comcast.net >, "Denis Breining" < dg...@att.net >, "Ron Fieseler" < mana...@blancocountygroundwater.org >, "Ron Miller" < rons...@yahoo.com >, "Katherine McClure" < katmccl...@me.com >, "Bill Elliott" < myo...@embarqmail.com > Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 9:16:28 PM Subject: Concrete Arrows mark Transcontinental Air Mail Route So who among you already knew about this? Logan
Re: [Texascavers] Recent accidents
So Ediger wins, right? - Original Message - > On Sep 30, 2013, at 1:28 PM, Logan McNatt < lmcn...@austin.rr.com > wrote: > >> A thorough analysis reveals that all of these recent accidents had one thing >> in common: gender. >> >> Alex Sproul, Sept 2013: falls off ladder >> >> Gill Ediger, Aug 2013: falls into pit >> >> Dwight Deal, June 2013: falls off ladder >> >> Pete Strickland, Sept 2012: falls in bathroom
Re: [Texascavers] Solo Caving
I think, James, that it is time to wind this down. Your justifications are approaching "encouraging others". >>>>>> It really goes without say (ing) anyone doing a solo trip make the >>>>>> necessary surface precautions<<<< Some folks who go caving alone do not want anyone to know what they are doing , where they are going, or where they have been. Some do not want to be found. >>>>>>> I never take the slightest risk<<<<< That is simply NOT true and you are dangerously fooling yourself if you actually believe it. Nothing we do is free of risk. You have made the personal decision that the risk you are taking is acceptable to you. DirtDoc
[Texascavers] Solo
Solo I have found this to be a rather interesting thread. James' question, which started all this, was " What is the general feeling regarding solo caving?" That seems to have morphed into "Why would anyone go caving alone?" And finally into folks actually describing some of their solo experiences. "Why would you cave alone?" has as many answers as there are cavers who have been caving by themselves. Usually, when I have been asked that question, it has been from someone who cannot comprehend (and usually appalled by) someone who would go off by themselves, especially in or into a cave. To those of you who have seriously asked why someone would cave alone, this is a sincere effort to reply. Not really to explain. Certainly not to justify. Hold this thought: What is unknown and therefore fearful for one person may be rather commonplace for another. Cavers, in particular, should understand this. Is there anyone reading this who has not been asked "Why do you DO that?" Caves are DARK. Caves are DANGEROUS. In the mud and the cold? There is no light in there! Those of us comfortable at being alone in a cave often do not talk about it, even when asked. There is that stigma attached by those who do not understand. There is a huge difference between attempting to answer the question and to encourage or invite someone to go off alone in a cave or to glorify caving by themselves. I feel that to encourage or glorify is unethical, dangerous, and perhaps even criminal. We are correct to advise others to cave in a group. There is also a big difference between the kind of experience beyond the Turtle Hurdles that Pete and I described and the kind of time spent by the Collins and Boons of the world. And by Jack Lehrberger or Bill Austin (the manager of Floyd Collins Crystal Cave in the 50s and 60s) and other "secret" cavers seeking discoveries that are "theirs", and theirs alone. The solo experiences described on this thread, more in line with what James was inquiring about, are of shorter duration and less technically demanding than really serious solo exploration of a major cave system. They are usually fun, at least when they start out. Sometimes there is a commercial interest. For some, it is the personal challenge: "I can do that!" (A little chest-pounding?) A few cavers are just uncomfortable around other people. Some have sought comfort from other pressures in life by hiding out somewhere comfortable for them - a few have found that spot in a cave. I can best speak from my own experiences. As a young geologist-mountaineer I became comfortable being alone in remote mountain and desert wilderness. I did not think I was driven by the desire to be alone. I wanted to go somewhere and see something particular and there was no one around with a similar interest. And I liked to explore. It was fun to be somewhere new and to see sights from an unusual perspective. I had learned the skills, possessed the equipment, and used forethought and planning. It became commonplace for me to be alone in the wilderness. I had a great time. I felt that I was at less risk there than I was when riding my bicycle down the streets of Laramie - or any town or city. Lew Bicking and I had a discussion about that, just the two of us (not quite alone), in the Guadalupe Mountains of New Mexico, shortly before he was killed on an eastern roadway. I remember standing, very alone, high in the Rocky Mountains, looking down into a bergschrund that seemed to drop downward forever, a blue-black slot into an icy Hell. "If the snow I am standing on gives way, no one will know what happened. No one has any idea where I am. I will simply disappear from the face of the Earth." I cautiously stepped back, for I have never been suicidal. At that time I was a very good climber, an experienced leader but a cut below the best. A climbing companion who was one of the best told me "You will never really be a REALLY fine climber unless you put your life on the line." I have never knowingly done so. I have enjoyed my climbing, caving, and other experiences. I now look back on a full and interesting life. I was not simply "lucky". I have spent days alone in the wilderness, the mountains, the desert, and many hours alone in caves. Quite often I started out above ground with no idea where, exactly, I was going to be, although I had a goal. Somebody usually knew, sort of. That would have narrowed it down, but the area might be 10 or 20 square miles. I remember finding a remote cave, and well back into it thinking that if I became injured or trapped there would not even be buzzards circling above to help others (or predators) locate me. An interestin
[Texascavers] Solo Caving
>>>>>>So, how is solo caving different from solo trail running, solo hiking, or >>>>>>solo driving on rural roads?<<<<<<< And THERE is the key question, Geary. Thank you. How about solo walking to the mail box? Or solo cave diving? Personally, I don't have the needed experience or knowledge for the latter and therefore cave diving - solo or not - scares the hell out of me and keeps me from attempting it. NOTHING we do is free of risk. Some individuals are just dumber than others and do not comprehend the risks that they are taking at any given moment. But those that do not comprehend the experience and understanding that other individuals have of the world around them, well -- they just might be the most foolish of all. What is unknown and therefore fearful for one person may be rather commonplace for another. Experienced and knowledgeable individuals also know that shit sometimes happens and have included that awareness into their assessment of the real risk that they are taking - at any given moment. DirtDoc
Re: [Texascavers] Solo caving
Yes, Pete, I certainly do remember the Turtle Hurdles! I figured Max must have come down out of a crack in the ceiling somewhere, and finally gave up searching. I was doubting that even if I found a traveled route, I still would not know how to get to a main tourist trail and onto the Snowball Dining Room. I hoped you would be able to do so if I found a traveled way. That was not really fun "solo caving". It became Endurance Zen. But that is a different kind of caving than started this thread. I do think that I was out for more than an hour (and I have been out for much, much, longer - some were quite wonderful and rewarding hours and hours), it certainly makes a better story that way. Passages became upstream and low, slow going, and a different kind of tiring caving from the exhausting Turtle Hurdles. I really did not want to go back the way we came and remember the effort it took to do so. At the end we popped out pooped. I ALSO remember well that we knew that Sweet and Sour Pork was on the menu - (Hold That Thought) Dwight
Re: [Texascavers] Solo caving in Castleguard: Mike Boon's epic trip
Thanks, Frank. I remember that article well! A classic story in a classic publication. (And Jewel Cave had finally reached 50 miles to become the World's fifth longest cave --) By the way - - in cleaning up the basement in the aftermath of too much flooding, I ran across a "mint" copy of IE #1. Unharmed! DirtDoc - Original Message - You can read Mike’s captivating account of his solo trip in Inside Earth #3, available for free download via the link below. (Thank you Bill Mixon for scanning all the long out-of-print Inside Earth issues!) https://www.hightail.com/download/OGhmZXQ1TlF3TGhqQThUQw Frank Binney
Re: [Texascavers] Solo caving
There is a certain peacefulness. And quiet satisfaction. DirtDoc
[Texascavers] News Releases from Phong Nha - Ke Bang National Park, Vietnam
News Releases from Phong Nha - Ke Bang National Park, Vietnam First foreign tourist group explores Son Doong Cave Thursday, 29 August 2013 06:02 This is the first foreign tourist group to have fully explored the world's largest cave. The group comprised of six members from USA, Russia, Australia and Norway. After spending seven days and six nights inside the cave, the foreign tourist group returned to Son Trach Commune. On behalf of leaders of Quang Binh Province, Tran Tien Dung awarded certificates to the six member group. Vietnamese woman spends US$3,000 to see Son Doong Cave Thursday, 29 August 2013 05:58 To mark her thirtieth birthday, a Vietnamese woman spent US$3,000 on a tour of Son Doong Cave--the world largest cave. Nguyen M.H, a freelance advertising executive working in Ho Chi Minh City, was determined to do something extraordinary to mark her thirtieth birthday.She decided to spend US$3,000 on an adventure tour of Son Doong Cave in Phong Nha-Ke Bang National Park with other Japanese and Canadian holidaymaker and US photographer Ryan Deboodt to see the inside of the world’s largest cave. Earlier, a foreign tourist group had been the first to explore the Son Doong Cave. QUANG BINH (VNS)-- Sunday, 16 June 2013 09:11 The People's Committee of the central province of Quang Binh has approved an experimental adventure tour to Son Doong Cave suggested by Howard Limbert, expert of the British Cave Research Association. Limbert recommended that due to unexplored nature of cave, the trial tours, to be held twice a month should consist of a group of only seven or eight visitors. Son Doong Cave, found in 1991 in Phong Nha-Ke Bang National Park, is considered the largest cave in the world. It contains a large fast-flowing underground river inside its walls. A group of British scientists from the British Cave Research Association, led by Limbert, conducted a survey in 2009. Limbert also stated in addition to ensuring the safety of the tourists, authorities and travel companies should protect the primary site and the surrounding ecological environment. Exploration of the cave is preferential in dry season, between February and August. The trial tours will be launched next year before operating officially.
[SWR] Hang Son Doong, Vietnam
Here is an edited and updated link to my comments about the entertaining Huffington Post (we don't have a clue) report on the developing adventure tourism trips into Hang Son Doong, Vietnam, proclaimed to be "The World's Biggest Cave" by National Geographic. http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=15581 DirtDoc___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [Texascavers] Caving question & tip
It's pretty clear that he was a Spee-dunker and not a caver. DirtDoc
[Texascavers] Son Doong - Prepping fo Tours
World's Largest Cave, Son Doong, Prepping For First Public Tours http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/07/son-doong_n_3873341.html x Yes, that IS interesting. Some of you know that we have been over there the last two years, although we did not actually get into "The Big One". It was not permitted at the time as political and practical realities were shaking out. We do know the country and many of the people. It will be interesting to see how many takers they have at that price, especially after the first rush of adventurers. It is a unique resource, after all. Yes, the advertised price is $3000 per person for a minimum group of 6. Included is all training, supplies, transportation, guides, and equipment for 6 days. You do have to pass some rigorous physical tests in order to go in. The Park officials have limited visitation to 220 permits for 2014. You can do the math --. For a couple of years, in the dryer season (April), they have been offering three day treks to Son Doong. It's about 15 km trek through the jungle to another big cave (Hang En), where you sleep . Next day hike over to the entrance of Son Doong and look in, but do not enter. Then walk back to Hang En for a second night. Hike out the third day. The planning to open the cave to "all comers" on a week-long trip has raised considerable concerns, not only about operating inside a World Heritage Site and protecting the cave, but to assure the safety of the visitors. The last few years has seen the training of competent Vietnamese guides under the tutelage of Howard Limbert, the Brit who has been exploring there for the last 20 years. (Howard met with our group of cavers last November and reviewed the history of his explorations - we also met some of the guides.) See http://www.oxalis.com.vn/ Oxalis also offers other cave and karst tours at lesser cost. It IS phenomenal country. The comment about a 100 meter rappel is also in the National Geographic video that aired a couple of years ago (and available in three parts on U-tube). Yes, you CAN enter the cave that way. However, a careful reading of Howard Limbert's description of their taking the National Geographic crew into the cave reveals that they were able to rig the entrance as a 60 meter down-climb without actually using SRT. The behind the scenes discussion of caving and making the National Geographic video and article of Son Doong from a caver's perspective has recently been posted: http://www.vietnamcaves.com/report-2010 If you want to review what we were doing poking around the karst of SE Asia, you might review the Cave Chat Blog: http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=13148 DirtDoc
[Texascavers] Re: [SWR] Dilation theory.
I had forgotten that Donald pointed out that having sex in a cave increased the risk of de-dilation. DirtDoc NSS Members can also view this article directly on our website: http://www.caves.org Login into the member's area (yellow bat sticker in the center of the page). Enter your NSS number as your username, your zip code as your password. The second section down has a direct link to al back issues of the News as well as our other periodicals. The December 1983 issue contains this article.
Re: [SWR] LNF sinkhole accident link
Cotton rope?? That true? ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [SWR] LNF sinkhole accident link
Cotton rope?? That true? ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [Texascavers] FW: Non Cave related--Concrete arrows - interesting.....
I ran across a couple of them when I was working on a seismograph crew in southern Wyoming the winter of 1959-60. None of us knew what they were, but our landman figured it out. DirtDoc
Re: [Texascavers] FW: Non Cave related--Concrete arrows - interesting.....
I ran across a couple of them when I was working on a seismograph crew in southern Wyoming the winter of 1959-60. None of us knew what they were, but our landman figured it out. DirtDoc
[Texascavers] Re: [Texas Cavers Reunion 36]
You shoulda bought the Moby Dick I had for sale when you had the chance !! DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Jim Kennedy" To: "Fritz Holt" Cc: "Oztotl" , "June Levy" , "Mandy holt" , "Jenny Holt" , "Cavers Texas" Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 9:30:49 AM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [Texas Cavers Reunion 36] I'll volunteer to go out and help split one day, but I have no means to haul. Jim
[Texascavers] Re: [Texas Cavers Reunion 36]
You shoulda bought the Moby Dick I had for sale when you had the chance !! DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Jim Kennedy" To: "Fritz Holt" Cc: "Oztotl" , "June Levy" , "Mandy holt" , "Jenny Holt" , "Cavers Texas" Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 9:30:49 AM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] [Texas Cavers Reunion 36] I'll volunteer to go out and help split one day, but I have no means to haul. Jim
[Texascavers] Re:Carapace failure
Carapace failure materials - for bugs that need a leak. FYI - I have used Boric Acid crystals (needle-like things) for that purpose since I returned to Alpine in 1972 with a refrigerator from Austin, that also brought along a seed population of German Cockroaches. I hauled them in Terry Raines' old stock trailer (overloaded, of course), whose axle fell off shortly after we got to the hill country -- but that is yet another story. Boric Acid crystals work even better than diatomaceous earth . I still have a pint canister. Bought 25 pounds at some rediculuous low price in Austin. I think from a chemical supply house - that was the smallest quantity they would sell to me. I claimed some sort of University research, if I remember correctly. It used to be sold at 500x the price as "Roach Prufe", which I think you can still buy for about $5 a pound. I think I saw it at Ace Hdwr. That should be cheap enough even for cavers. DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Louise Power" in your home you can use diatomaceous earth to kill ants among other insects. It's not toxic to humans or pets, but it is to things like ants, weevils (they use it in grain silos), fleas, silverfish, etc. It abrades the carapace and they "bleed" to death. I use it at my doors and window sills along with ground cinnamon. I also stir up ant hills and cover them with DE. Ants won't cross cinnamon and they just flip over in DE turn their legs up to the sky and get little Xs in their eyes." If anyone else is interested, I can recommend a website. Louise
[Texascavers] Re:Carapace failure
Carapace failure materials - for bugs that need a leak. FYI - I have used Boric Acid crystals (needle-like things) for that purpose since I returned to Alpine in 1972 with a refrigerator from Austin, that also brought along a seed population of German Cockroaches. I hauled them in Terry Raines' old stock trailer (overloaded, of course), whose axle fell off shortly after we got to the hill country -- but that is yet another story. Boric Acid crystals work even better than diatomaceous earth . I still have a pint canister. Bought 25 pounds at some rediculuous low price in Austin. I think from a chemical supply house - that was the smallest quantity they would sell to me. I claimed some sort of University research, if I remember correctly. It used to be sold at 500x the price as "Roach Prufe", which I think you can still buy for about $5 a pound. I think I saw it at Ace Hdwr. That should be cheap enough even for cavers. DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Louise Power" in your home you can use diatomaceous earth to kill ants among other insects. It's not toxic to humans or pets, but it is to things like ants, weevils (they use it in grain silos), fleas, silverfish, etc. It abrades the carapace and they "bleed" to death. I use it at my doors and window sills along with ground cinnamon. I also stir up ant hills and cover them with DE. Ants won't cross cinnamon and they just flip over in DE turn their legs up to the sky and get little Xs in their eyes." If anyone else is interested, I can recommend a website. Louise
[Texascavers] No Place on Earth
FYI - it is now available from Netflix. My copy just came. DirtDoc
[Texascavers] No Place on Earth
FYI - it is now available from Netflix. My copy just came. DirtDoc
[Texascavers] No Place On Earth
No Place On Earth The DVD is now scheduled for release on NetFlix in August. DirtDoc
[Texascavers] No Place On Earth
No Place On Earth The DVD is now scheduled for release on NetFlix in August. DirtDoc
[Texascavers] No Place On Earth
No Place On Earth The DVD is now scheduled for release on NetFlix in August. DirtDoc
Re: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
Thanks, Logan. I thought that was the case, but was not sure. In Colorado the testing requirements are quite variable from one municipality/area to another . The Front Range is especially strict. Denver has been under the EPA gun due to our setting against the Rocky Mountains and our sometimes miserable air . It is estimated to cost $900+ to put the original, rather worthless, smog stuff back on to Moby Dick and it would not clean up the emissions that much. 1988 technology was just not that good. DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Logan McNatt" To: dirt...@comcast.net Cc: "Jim Kennedy" , "Cave Texas" , "Don Arburn" Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 10:20:21 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving If it's 25 years or older, it doesn't have to pass emissions testing. Logan (owner of 1988 Toyota) On 6/18/2013 10:27 PM, dirt...@comcast.net wrote: I depends on how they require it, Jim. This is a 25 year old vehicle. a 1988. What are your local emission testing requirements for something that age? DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Jim Kennedy" To: "Don Arburn" , dirt...@comcast.net Cc: "Cave Texas" Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:44:25 PM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving Austin has emissions testing also, so I’m out as a buyer. -- Jim
Re: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
Thanks, Logan. I thought that was the case, but was not sure. In Colorado the testing requirements are quite variable from one municipality/area to another . The Front Range is especially strict. Denver has been under the EPA gun due to our setting against the Rocky Mountains and our sometimes miserable air . It is estimated to cost $900+ to put the original, rather worthless, smog stuff back on to Moby Dick and it would not clean up the emissions that much. 1988 technology was just not that good. DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Logan McNatt" To: dirt...@comcast.net Cc: "Jim Kennedy" , "Cave Texas" , "Don Arburn" Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 10:20:21 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving If it's 25 years or older, it doesn't have to pass emissions testing. Logan (owner of 1988 Toyota) On 6/18/2013 10:27 PM, dirt...@comcast.net wrote: I depends on how they require it, Jim. This is a 25 year old vehicle. a 1988. What are your local emission testing requirements for something that age? DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Jim Kennedy" To: "Don Arburn" , dirt...@comcast.net Cc: "Cave Texas" Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:44:25 PM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving Austin has emissions testing also, so I’m out as a buyer. -- Jim
Re: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
Thanks, Logan. I thought that was the case, but was not sure. In Colorado the testing requirements are quite variable from one municipality/area to another . The Front Range is especially strict. Denver has been under the EPA gun due to our setting against the Rocky Mountains and our sometimes miserable air . It is estimated to cost $900+ to put the original, rather worthless, smog stuff back on to Moby Dick and it would not clean up the emissions that much. 1988 technology was just not that good. DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Logan McNatt" To: dirt...@comcast.net Cc: "Jim Kennedy" , "Cave Texas" , "Don Arburn" Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 10:20:21 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving If it's 25 years or older, it doesn't have to pass emissions testing. Logan (owner of 1988 Toyota) On 6/18/2013 10:27 PM, dirt...@comcast.net wrote: I depends on how they require it, Jim. This is a 25 year old vehicle. a 1988. What are your local emission testing requirements for something that age? DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Jim Kennedy" To: "Don Arburn" , dirt...@comcast.net Cc: "Cave Texas" Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:44:25 PM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving Austin has emissions testing also, so I’m out as a buyer. -- Jim
Re: [Texascavers] Suburbans
Like Bill, I have been driving two Tortugas that many of you know. The first was a 59 1/2 ton I bought in 1961 , the second the 3/4 ton with a one-ton front axel that Ken Laidlaw bought new. When he got tired of his Big Toy, I bought it and put it to Real Work . I ended up after 30 years with over 480K on that one (with four hart transplants) . In 2003 I gave it to my son in Albuquerque. I was trying to get it to an NSS convention and put it in the auction, but it did not quite happen. Pity! The 3/4 ton 1988's were about at the peak of Suburban toughness and durability, although there wa s a sight degrading compared to my 69, but only an expert would see it. A far cry from the truck-on-a-passenger -car-chassis that have been produced since. I really would not want one of the new ones - there are better vehicles out there for my - and most cavers - purposes. The really smart upgrade (along with a bunch of other things) t hat Dan added to this one is the 25% Gear Vendors overdrive. I think he is probably quite honest when he says he got 16-17 MPG in overdrive driving 75MPH on the interstate from Seattle to Estes Park ( 1500 miles). That truck is about 6000 pounds, empty. You should read all the upgrades he has done to the thing - on the DropBox link. DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Mixon Bill" To: "Cavers Texas" Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 8:51:00 PM Subject: [Texascavers] Suburbans I owned serial Suburbans back in the day, starting back when they were actually trucks and not all tricked out like rolling whorehouses with headliners and the like. There was actually metal on the interior that you could screw stuff to. My first one had only three doors, two on the curb side and one for the driver--not counting the tailgate, of course. The second seat was optional back then, and had to be unbolted to be removed. My experience with them has made me swear to never buy anything from GM again, and I haven't. Mostly nuisances like broken door handles, failed light switches, snapped speedometer cables, leaky driveline seals, etc. etc. etc. An engine-mount bolt fell out up in the Purificación cave area in Mexico. When a fuel pump failed on one of them, a dealer fixed it but returned the truck to me with the sparkplug wires mixed up. (Not clear why they were even removed.) The last straw was when my last one had a total ignition failure on the way home from a Sunday swim two days before I had to leave for an NSS convention somewhere in the NW. Then on the way home the fuel pump on that one went out, too. I suppose some people think things like that just add spice to a trip. I kept none of them beyond ~ 130K miles. "Your mileage may vary." -- Mixon Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more. You may "reply" to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Suburbans
Like Bill, I have been driving two Tortugas that many of you know. The first was a 59 1/2 ton I bought in 1961 , the second the 3/4 ton with a one-ton front axel that Ken Laidlaw bought new. When he got tired of his Big Toy, I bought it and put it to Real Work . I ended up after 30 years with over 480K on that one (with four hart transplants) . In 2003 I gave it to my son in Albuquerque. I was trying to get it to an NSS convention and put it in the auction, but it did not quite happen. Pity! The 3/4 ton 1988's were about at the peak of Suburban toughness and durability, although there wa s a sight degrading compared to my 69, but only an expert would see it. A far cry from the truck-on-a-passenger -car-chassis that have been produced since. I really would not want one of the new ones - there are better vehicles out there for my - and most cavers - purposes. The really smart upgrade (along with a bunch of other things) t hat Dan added to this one is the 25% Gear Vendors overdrive. I think he is probably quite honest when he says he got 16-17 MPG in overdrive driving 75MPH on the interstate from Seattle to Estes Park ( 1500 miles). That truck is about 6000 pounds, empty. You should read all the upgrades he has done to the thing - on the DropBox link. DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Mixon Bill" To: "Cavers Texas" Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 8:51:00 PM Subject: [Texascavers] Suburbans I owned serial Suburbans back in the day, starting back when they were actually trucks and not all tricked out like rolling whorehouses with headliners and the like. There was actually metal on the interior that you could screw stuff to. My first one had only three doors, two on the curb side and one for the driver--not counting the tailgate, of course. The second seat was optional back then, and had to be unbolted to be removed. My experience with them has made me swear to never buy anything from GM again, and I haven't. Mostly nuisances like broken door handles, failed light switches, snapped speedometer cables, leaky driveline seals, etc. etc. etc. An engine-mount bolt fell out up in the Purificación cave area in Mexico. When a fuel pump failed on one of them, a dealer fixed it but returned the truck to me with the sparkplug wires mixed up. (Not clear why they were even removed.) The last straw was when my last one had a total ignition failure on the way home from a Sunday swim two days before I had to leave for an NSS convention somewhere in the NW. Then on the way home the fuel pump on that one went out, too. I suppose some people think things like that just add spice to a trip. I kept none of them beyond ~ 130K miles. "Your mileage may vary." -- Mixon Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more. You may "reply" to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Suburbans
Like Bill, I have been driving two Tortugas that many of you know. The first was a 59 1/2 ton I bought in 1961 , the second the 3/4 ton with a one-ton front axel that Ken Laidlaw bought new. When he got tired of his Big Toy, I bought it and put it to Real Work . I ended up after 30 years with over 480K on that one (with four hart transplants) . In 2003 I gave it to my son in Albuquerque. I was trying to get it to an NSS convention and put it in the auction, but it did not quite happen. Pity! The 3/4 ton 1988's were about at the peak of Suburban toughness and durability, although there wa s a sight degrading compared to my 69, but only an expert would see it. A far cry from the truck-on-a-passenger -car-chassis that have been produced since. I really would not want one of the new ones - there are better vehicles out there for my - and most cavers - purposes. The really smart upgrade (along with a bunch of other things) t hat Dan added to this one is the 25% Gear Vendors overdrive. I think he is probably quite honest when he says he got 16-17 MPG in overdrive driving 75MPH on the interstate from Seattle to Estes Park ( 1500 miles). That truck is about 6000 pounds, empty. You should read all the upgrades he has done to the thing - on the DropBox link. DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Mixon Bill" To: "Cavers Texas" Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 8:51:00 PM Subject: [Texascavers] Suburbans I owned serial Suburbans back in the day, starting back when they were actually trucks and not all tricked out like rolling whorehouses with headliners and the like. There was actually metal on the interior that you could screw stuff to. My first one had only three doors, two on the curb side and one for the driver--not counting the tailgate, of course. The second seat was optional back then, and had to be unbolted to be removed. My experience with them has made me swear to never buy anything from GM again, and I haven't. Mostly nuisances like broken door handles, failed light switches, snapped speedometer cables, leaky driveline seals, etc. etc. etc. An engine-mount bolt fell out up in the Purificación cave area in Mexico. When a fuel pump failed on one of them, a dealer fixed it but returned the truck to me with the sparkplug wires mixed up. (Not clear why they were even removed.) The last straw was when my last one had a total ignition failure on the way home from a Sunday swim two days before I had to leave for an NSS convention somewhere in the NW. Then on the way home the fuel pump on that one went out, too. I suppose some people think things like that just add spice to a trip. I kept none of them beyond ~ 130K miles. "Your mileage may vary." -- Mixon Always forgive your enemies. Nothing annoys them more. You may "reply" to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: a...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
I depends on how they require it, Jim. This is a 25 year old vehicle. a 1988. What are your local emission testing requirements for something that age? DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Jim Kennedy" To: "Don Arburn" , dirt...@comcast.net Cc: "Cave Texas" Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:44:25 PM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving Austin has emissions testing also, so I’m out as a buyer. -- Jim
Re: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
I depends on how they require it, Jim. This is a 25 year old vehicle. a 1988. What are your local emission testing requirements for something that age? DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Jim Kennedy" To: "Don Arburn" , dirt...@comcast.net Cc: "Cave Texas" Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:44:25 PM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving Austin has emissions testing also, so I’m out as a buyer. -- Jim
Re: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
I depends on how they require it, Jim. This is a 25 year old vehicle. a 1988. What are your local emission testing requirements for something that age? DirtDoc - Original Message - From: "Jim Kennedy" To: "Don Arburn" , dirt...@comcast.net Cc: "Cave Texas" Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:44:25 PM Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving Austin has emissions testing also, so I’m out as a buyer. -- Jim
Re: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
I've been too far out of the Texican loop for too long, Don. Sounds as if you are correct as far as any pul l-off contest is concerned. I should have come over and admired Moby when we were together in Brackettville a couple of April Fools ago I must also admit that this is not quite as stout as the 1969 green 3/4 ton that I drove over 480,000. GMC has slowly cheapened their light trucks. DirtDoc
Re: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
I've been too far out of the Texican loop for too long, Don. Sounds as if you are correct as far as any pul l-off contest is concerned. I should have come over and admired Moby when we were together in Brackettville a couple of April Fools ago I must also admit that this is not quite as stout as the 1969 green 3/4 ton that I drove over 480,000. GMC has slowly cheapened their light trucks. DirtDoc
Re: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
I've been too far out of the Texican loop for too long, Don. Sounds as if you are correct as far as any pul l-off contest is concerned. I should have come over and admired Moby when we were together in Brackettville a couple of April Fools ago I must also admit that this is not quite as stout as the 1969 green 3/4 ton that I drove over 480,000. GMC has slowly cheapened their light trucks. DirtDoc
[Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
How about the Dick part, Don? I found this thing in my driveway when I came back from Terlingua. Dan had left it there, and all the keys and paperwork with a neighbor. Whatever it is, it is certainly a Great White Whale!! I have put i t up on Craig's List - and I have had calls from New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, and Wyoming, as well as Colorado. So far, no one with has materialized at my door. It probably cannot pass the emission test in the Denver-Front Range area as Dan has ripped off all the stupid 1988 smog stuff, which never did much anyway except strangle the thing. I had two guys that wanted it, but only if I got it passed the emissions test. I not even abut to try. Most of the Colorado interest has floundered on the emissions issue. I actually had two guys drive up from Oklahoma on Saturday, but The Wife put the kibosh on it. She wanted something to take 6-7 people around the New Mexico mountains and had several excuses, like she wanted another back seat. Geez!! Ever heard of the junk yard? She just did not warm up to it. Her husband, however, was working his way up to a wet dream. Biggest problem seemed to be that she damn near fell on her head trying to get in and out of it. License from Washington State is good through the end of the month. DirtDoc - Forwarded Message - From: "Don Arburn" Cc: "Cave Texas" Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 5:35:05 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving The name Moby is taken. And Moby ain't fer sale.
[Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
How about the Dick part, Don? I found this thing in my driveway when I came back from Terlingua. Dan had left it there, and all the keys and paperwork with a neighbor. Whatever it is, it is certainly a Great White Whale!! I have put i t up on Craig's List - and I have had calls from New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, and Wyoming, as well as Colorado. So far, no one with has materialized at my door. It probably cannot pass the emission test in the Denver-Front Range area as Dan has ripped off all the stupid 1988 smog stuff, which never did much anyway except strangle the thing. I had two guys that wanted it, but only if I got it passed the emissions test. I not even abut to try. Most of the Colorado interest has floundered on the emissions issue. I actually had two guys drive up from Oklahoma on Saturday, but The Wife put the kibosh on it. She wanted something to take 6-7 people around the New Mexico mountains and had several excuses, like she wanted another back seat. Geez!! Ever heard of the junk yard? She just did not warm up to it. Her husband, however, was working his way up to a wet dream. Biggest problem seemed to be that she damn near fell on her head trying to get in and out of it. License from Washington State is good through the end of the month. DirtDoc - Forwarded Message - From: "Don Arburn" Cc: "Cave Texas" Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 5:35:05 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving The name Moby is taken. And Moby ain't fer sale.
[Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
How about the Dick part, Don? I found this thing in my driveway when I came back from Terlingua. Dan had left it there, and all the keys and paperwork with a neighbor. Whatever it is, it is certainly a Great White Whale!! I have put i t up on Craig's List - and I have had calls from New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, and Wyoming, as well as Colorado. So far, no one with has materialized at my door. It probably cannot pass the emission test in the Denver-Front Range area as Dan has ripped off all the stupid 1988 smog stuff, which never did much anyway except strangle the thing. I had two guys that wanted it, but only if I got it passed the emissions test. I not even abut to try. Most of the Colorado interest has floundered on the emissions issue. I actually had two guys drive up from Oklahoma on Saturday, but The Wife put the kibosh on it. She wanted something to take 6-7 people around the New Mexico mountains and had several excuses, like she wanted another back seat. Geez!! Ever heard of the junk yard? She just did not warm up to it. Her husband, however, was working his way up to a wet dream. Biggest problem seemed to be that she damn near fell on her head trying to get in and out of it. License from Washington State is good through the end of the month. DirtDoc - Forwarded Message - From: "Don Arburn" Cc: "Cave Texas" Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 5:35:05 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving The name Moby is taken. And Moby ain't fer sale.
[SWR] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
Know of anyone out there that might be interested? This is definitely a great bargain and One Big Tough Truck. I have been driving it and I think Dan has honestly advertised it. . Go to the Drop Box Link. https://www.dropbox.com/s/ee5388v3338m6u7/1988%20Suburban.docx?m Dwight___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[SWR] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
Know of anyone out there that might be interested? This is definitely a great bargain and One Big Tough Truck. I have been driving it and I think Dan has honestly advertised it. . Go to the Drop Box Link. https://www.dropbox.com/s/ee5388v3338m6u7/1988%20Suburban.docx?m Dwight___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
[SWR] Moby Dick: Supper truck for tough caving
Know of anyone out there that might be interested? This is definitely a great bargain and One Big Tough Truck. I have been driving it and I think Dan has honestly advertised it. . Go to the Drop Box Link. https://www.dropbox.com/s/ee5388v3338m6u7/1988%20Suburban.docx?m Dwight___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://lists.caver.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/swr ___ This list is provided free as a courtesy of CAVERNET
Re: [Texascavers] Gin pole truck in action at Kiwi Sink
Thanks. Very appreciated images. I see The Ladder, but not The Train -- DirtDoc
Re: [Texascavers] Gin pole truck in action at Kiwi Sink
Thanks. Very appreciated images. I see The Ladder, but not The Train -- DirtDoc
Re: [Texascavers] Gin pole truck in action at Kiwi Sink
Thanks. Very appreciated images. I see The Ladder, but not The Train -- DirtDoc
