RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
RD, Here is my delayed reaction to your Jan. 22 post, which is basically no reaction. Not wanting to think too much on the subject, I will stick to my original reasons for being a TSA member. If one is a reasonably social person, the camaraderie is as good a reason as any and TSA membership gives me the opportunity to enjoy this with people that I like. I love being outdoors and camping with my daughters who are of like mind, especially when the weather is nice. As far as being a follower, I never was. In the membership dues debate, I privately recommended that dues be increased, possibly more than many would like. Fortunately, at this stage in life the cost of dues for an organization in which I am interested is not an issue so I will let others make that decision. This, in large part is due to the wife whom I adore being a growth oriented manager of our resources. (She does allow me to consult). While I and others may offer suggestions or ideas on ways to grow the association, it is the officers who must sort through, debate and finally implement them. I doubt that higher dues would keep many who are interested in caving from joining and likewise, lower dues entice any great number to join. These are my feelings on the matter. My thanks to Charles Goldsmith for making this format available for us to communicate (vent). More thanks to Mark Alman for the time consuming and sometimes thankless job he does in compiling and making The Texas Caver available to us. I look forward to reading the interesting articles, information and the great caving pictures. Fritz _ From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:48 PM To: List: OT-TexasCavers; Fritz Holt Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Again Fritz, I am not bashing anyone or any organization, just passing along my own views on the question of the cost/benefits of TSA membership. So, again, the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR and various caving activities is not tied to TSA membership. The Spring Convention is. TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access : I agree that the TCMA and also the TCC enables access to caves, but I don't see how the TSA does, except through organizational contributions to land acquisition activities, in which the TSA acts as a conduit only. At least there are no administrative fees or overhead costs associated. officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues Why would you avoid using your own judgement in estimating appropriate dues for an organization you belong to. I suppose we all are becoming a nation of followers, I just supposed cavers would be on the trailing edge of this trend. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. Agreed, but there are two ways to make the equation of income generation work. The current scheme seems to be few members with high dues per member. One unintended (?) result of this policy is to keep the organization closely held, meaning old-timers tend to dominate, which makes it a conservative group, ie preservation of status quo/slow to change. The alternative approach is to have a large membership base with small dues per member. This approach could generate the same revenue, and involve more cavers, new cavers, young cavers, as icing on top. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts... I have been trying to point out that there is not a causal link between this enjoyment and TSA membership. This list, for instance is not owned by the TSA. It is made possible entirely through the good graces of the list owner, Charles Goldsmith. Now, more unsubstantiated views on the subject from cavers I have talked with recently. One, a qualified candidate for the position of newsletter editor for the UT Grotto, replied, somewhat surprised at my suggestion that the UTG needed a newsletter, replied Why? We have the Texas caver. Another, very involved Texas caver stated in confidence that the only benefit you get from TSA membership is the TC. I know that the TSA members who have stated opposing viewpoints are genuinely proud of their organization and the work they see it as accomplishing. But I see it as necessary to discount that dedication somewhat by the buy-in that members of organizations usually get by belonging to a group, meaning it is slightly more difficuly for them to view the organization objectively as whole from inside. I, and others before me, are suggesting change, but it is going to be hard to accomplish due to the nature of the organization -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 1:13
RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Again Fritz, I am not bashing anyone or any organization, just passing along my own views on the question of the cost/benefits of TSA membership. So, again, the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR and various caving activities is not tied to TSA membership. The Spring Convention is. TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access : I agree that the TCMA and also the TCC enables access to caves, but I don't see how the TSA does, except through organizational contributions to land acquisition activities, in which the TSA acts as a conduit only. At least there are no administrative fees or overhead costs associated. officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues Why would you avoid using your own judgement in estimating appropriate dues for an organization you belong to. I suppose we all are becoming a nation of followers, I just supposed cavers would be on the trailing edge of this trend. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. Agreed, but there are two ways to make the equation of income generation work. The current scheme seems to be few members with high dues per member. One unintended (?) result of this policy is to keep the organization closely held, meaning old-timers tend to dominate, which makes it a conservative group, ie preservation of status quo/slow to change. The alternative approach is to have a large membership base with small dues per member. This approach could generate the same revenue, and involve more cavers, new cavers, young cavers, as icing on top. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts... I have been trying to point out that there is not a causal link between this enjoyment and TSA membership. This list, for instance is not owned by the TSA. It is made possible entirely through the good graces of the list owner, Charles Goldsmith. Now, more unsubstantiated views on the subject from cavers I have talked with recently. One, a qualified candidate for the position of newsletter editor for the UT Grotto, replied, somewhat surprised at my suggestion that the UTG needed a newsletter, replied Why? We have the Texas caver. Another, very involved Texas caver stated in confidence that the only benefit you get from TSA membership is the TC. I know that the TSA members who have stated opposing viewpoints are genuinely proud of their organization and the work they see it as accomplishing. But I see it as necessary to discount that dedication somewhat by the buy-in that members of organizations usually get by belonging to a group, meaning it is slightly more difficuly for them to view the organization objectively as whole from inside. I, and others before me, are suggesting change, but it is going to be hard to accomplish due to the nature of the organization -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 1:13 PM To: RD Milhollin Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver RD, As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime. For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with what the officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of being a Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I liked caves. Fritz -- From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:56 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits
RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
RD, I thought that this string had died but apparently not. It will take me a few days to find the time to respond to your post, as it did you to mine. Mine will not be as comprehensive or as well thought out as yours but I will give it a shot, whether it is my best or not. I am a little slow and it takes me a while to ponder what I am going to say so therefore I often hesitate (procrastinate) to do anything that requires thinking. Don't expect much beyond my original response below but who knows, I may think of something. Best wishes, Fritz _ From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:48 PM To: List: OT-TexasCavers; Fritz Holt Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Again Fritz, I am not bashing anyone or any organization, just passing along my own views on the question of the cost/benefits of TSA membership. So, again, the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR and various caving activities is not tied to TSA membership. The Spring Convention is. TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access : I agree that the TCMA and also the TCC enables access to caves, but I don't see how the TSA does, except through organizational contributions to land acquisition activities, in which the TSA acts as a conduit only. At least there are no administrative fees or overhead costs associated. officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues Why would you avoid using your own judgement in estimating appropriate dues for an organization you belong to. I suppose we all are becoming a nation of followers, I just supposed cavers would be on the trailing edge of this trend. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. Agreed, but there are two ways to make the equation of income generation work. The current scheme seems to be few members with high dues per member. One unintended (?) result of this policy is to keep the organization closely held, meaning old-timers tend to dominate, which makes it a conservative group, ie preservation of status quo/slow to change. The alternative approach is to have a large membership base with small dues per member. This approach could generate the same revenue, and involve more cavers, new cavers, young cavers, as icing on top. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts... I have been trying to point out that there is not a causal link between this enjoyment and TSA membership. This list, for instance is not owned by the TSA. It is made possible entirely through the good graces of the list owner, Charles Goldsmith. Now, more unsubstantiated views on the subject from cavers I have talked with recently. One, a qualified candidate for the position of newsletter editor for the UT Grotto, replied, somewhat surprised at my suggestion that the UTG needed a newsletter, replied Why? We have the Texas caver. Another, very involved Texas caver stated in confidence that the only benefit you get from TSA membership is the TC. I know that the TSA members who have stated opposing viewpoints are genuinely proud of their organization and the work they see it as accomplishing. But I see it as necessary to discount that dedication somewhat by the buy-in that members of organizations usually get by belonging to a group, meaning it is slightly more difficuly for them to view the organization objectively as whole from inside. I, and others before me, are suggesting change, but it is going to be hard to accomplish due to the nature of the organization -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 1:13 PM To: RD Milhollin Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver RD, As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime. For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger ones, may be on a tight budget
Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Hi everyone- I have been caving since Friday morning. I just logged on and I read all your messages on the topic. Just to be clear, no decisions are being made regarding the Texas Caver. This is just an information gathering exercise on distribution methods and costs. I will follow up. Probably not this week though. Simon PS - I have not been a TSA member for very long, but I think there is some benefit to what they do - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
The TSA does a lot for Texas Caving...but we apparently do not do a good job of bragging about all that we do... Here is one very real benefit that the TSA provides to ALL Texas Cavers whether they are members or not: The TSA is providing funding for improvements to the tower at Honey Creek Cave. All Cavers benefit from this. In addition; the TSA maintains a database of Texas Cavers for the TCR and the TSA. And we publish on an annual basis a Texas Cavers directory that is available to all Texas Cavers whether they are members or not. The TSA is a sponsor of the ICS in Kerrville in 2009. The TSA provides support for TCR registration. And the TSA is funding the acquisition of new directional signs used to direct cavers to caving events. The TSA maintains a website with a consolidated calendar of caving events of all Texas caving organizationsthat is available to all cavers. In addition the TSA website has information useful to new and experienced cavers...such as a liability release that can be used by anyone. The TSA provides organizational support for projects. I could go on as there are numerous other benefits that the TSA provides to all Texas Caverswhether they are members of the TSA or not. What else does the TSA do? Well, we can do whatever it is that our members decide to do and support. That is sometimes projects, it is publishing ³The Texas Caver² or an activities newsletter. We provide cave rescue wallet cards that could be a resource should it ever be needed. The TSA has held vertical training workshops that have been open to ALL Texas Cavers. And the TSA hosts an annual Spring Convention; where interested cavers can see presentations on what is happening with the various caving groups around the state. These presentations range from recent explorations around Texas and Mexico to other topics of concern to cavers such as efforts to protect regional aquifers and cave systems. As with everything else; membership in the TSA is not required to attend or participate in the convention. So...if membership in the TSA is not required for anything we do...why join? Because, by joining and participating, the TSA can do more to support Texas Cavers and Texas Caving.and by joining you get ³The Texas Caver²but the real benefit is knowing that your support for the TSA directly translates to supporting Texas Cavers. On 1/17/08 1:12 PM, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: RD, As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime. For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with what the officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of being a Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I liked caves. Fritz From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:56 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those. -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:29 PM To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, Most associations of this type rarely have the necessary funds to meet obligations and to implement goals. I would resist the idea of any reductions in the cost of membership and would endorse an increase. The annual membership cost is too low for the benefits enjoyed by the members. This is my opinion and I hope that of others. Fritz From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:41 PM To: Fritz Holt; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX
Re: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
John, very nicely put, I was hoping someone that had been in the TSA longer than I had would speak up. Thanks! Charles On 1/19/08, John P. Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: The TSA does a lot for Texas Caving...but we apparently do not do a good job of bragging about all that we do... Here is one very real benefit that the TSA provides to ALL Texas Cavers whether they are members or not: The TSA is providing funding for improvements to the tower at Honey Creek Cave. All Cavers benefit from this. In addition; the TSA maintains a database of Texas Cavers for the TCR and the TSA. And we publish on an annual basis a Texas Cavers directory that is available to all Texas Cavers whether they are members or not. The TSA is a sponsor of the ICS in Kerrville in 2009. The TSA provides support for TCR registration. And the TSA is funding the acquisition of new directional signs used to direct cavers to caving events. The TSA maintains a website with a consolidated calendar of caving events of all Texas caving organizationsthat is available to all cavers. In addition the TSA website has information useful to new and experienced cavers...such as a liability release that can be used by anyone. The TSA provides organizational support for projects. I could go on as there are numerous other benefits that the TSA provides to all Texas Caverswhether they are members of the TSA or not. What else does the TSA do? Well, we can do whatever it is that our members decide to do and support. That is sometimes projects, it is publishing The Texas Caver or an activities newsletter. We provide cave rescue wallet cards that could be a resource should it ever be needed. The TSA has held vertical training workshops that have been open to ALL Texas Cavers. And the TSA hosts an annual Spring Convention; where interested cavers can see presentations on what is happening with the various caving groups around the state. These presentations range from recent explorations around Texas and Mexico to other topics of concern to cavers such as efforts to protect regional aquifers and cave systems. As with everything else; membership in the TSA is not required to attend or participate in the convention. So...if membership in the TSA is not required for anything we do...why join? Because, by joining and participating, the TSA can do more to support Texas Cavers and Texas Caving.and by joining you get The Texas Caverbut the real benefit is knowing that your support for the TSA directly translates to supporting Texas Cavers. On 1/17/08 1:12 PM, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: RD, As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime. For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with what the officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of being a Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I liked caves. Fritz From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:56 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those. -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:29 PM To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, Most associations of this type rarely have the necessary funds to meet obligations and to implement goals. I would resist the idea of any reductions in the cost of membership and would endorse an increase. The annual membership cost is too low
Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Back in 2004, we voted to reduce the TSS dues to $15 from $20 for single memberships as the Texas Caver was not regularly being published. It has since been raised back to $20. Jerry. In a message dated 1/16/2008 2:37:01 P.M. Central Standard Time, mark.al...@l-3com.com writes: That's not a bad idea, Fritz. Going from $20 a year to $25 wouldn't break anyone's household budget. Keeping the family membership at $30 seems reasonable. When was the last time dues were raised? Does anyone here know? Thanks, Mark **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489
RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Yes, $1200 was approved for the Honeycreek Project and this will cover all costs. The work weekend for this is April 12th and they (Bill Steele and Kurt Menking) could use everyone. Bring loppers and saws, as well, as they'll be cutting cedar, too. The CBSP meeting was indeed last weekend and we had an excellent turnout. The TSA also made a sizeable donation towards the ICS 2009 fund and is providing and lining up a lot of volunteers. They (Travis Scott) especially needs trip leaders. Be sure to put he word out to your Grotto members! As you can seem the TSA has been very busy, supportive, and active and, hopefully, once again matters! Mark (TC Editor, TSA Secretary/Cheerleader) P.S. - We're working on the bulk mail thing. I'll post the meeting minutes here and at the TSA website next week. I/We would LOVE to have you back RD! You're a great caver, person, volunteer, and you get things done! We need more like you in the TSA. -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 6:19 PM To: RD Milhollin Cc: o...@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver The TSA does have funds for land/cave purchase, its invested currently. I don't know if it was approved, but I do know a grant was put forth towards the TSA for $1200 to help improve Honey Creek entrance. The next meeting for TSA will be at CBSP I think, that alone will support that project, driving people there. I'm not an active member of TSA, but I have been a member for a couple of years and these are the types of things that I've seen happening and it's why I'm a member. To each his own. On 1/16/08, RD Milhollin rdmilhol...@charter.net wrote: Each grotto has (or should have) a newsletter. The projects are the result of individual initiative and followup, and could be done without the help of any organization. I am not aware of the TSA purchasing land/caves. I know the TCMA and TCC do, and I support both of those organizations. Honey Creek, CBSP: see projects above. TSS is a private corporation, as far as I know. Please correct me if I am mistaken. TCR is a stand-alone affair/organization/happening. The Spring Convention is a worthy endeavor, certainly worthy of support, but not $20-30 per year from people who might not even be able to make it there. I don't see that the TSA actually does a lot. You haven't yet convinced me. FWIW I am not a TSA member, I once was but chose not to renew several years ago. I would consider rejoining and becoming involved if I could convince myself that it served a purpose not covered either by individuals who choose to take on tasks for the loive of it, or by other caving organizations; and if I could feel that the dues justified the returns. It doesn't count but my vote would be to have an electronic newsletter available to those who don't want paper, and for a considerable break in the dues, as was mentioned in a previous post. -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 5:48 PM To: RD Milhollin Cc: o...@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver I'll chime in here, as a TSA member and what I see coming out of this organization. Aside from the obvious, the newsletter, the TSA also has several projects that are on-going. Land purchase, helping with Honey Creek, CBSP, TSS, TCR/Spring Convention and others. I'm sure that I didn't get nearly all of the things, but from what I've seen, the TSA does a lot and could do more with extra funding, saving cash on doing bulk mails. Charles
[Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
RD, As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime. For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with what the officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of being a Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I liked caves. Fritz _ From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:56 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those. -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:29 PM To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, Most associations of this type rarely have the necessary funds to meet obligations and to implement goals. I would resist the idea of any reductions in the cost of membership and would endorse an increase. The annual membership cost is too low for the benefits enjoyed by the members. This is my opinion and I hope that of others. Fritz _ From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:41 PM To: Fritz Holt; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver It would still remain in a paper format, Fritz. You would just have the option of receiving it electronically, instead of in paper, at a reduced price. Thanks, Mark P.S. - Good idea about the membership application. _ From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wed 1/16/2008 12:22 PM To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, As the discussion in question is relevant caving business, I will give my opinion. I doubt whether few if any cavers are members of TSA solely to receive The Caver. So, going electronically should not diminish the membership rolls. Changing the format, making it available to all with its beautiful pictures and most interesting and informative information, may increase membership. It should have a membership application in each issue. I assume that when sent electronically the cost is the same regardless of the number of recipients. This sounds like a money saving idea for the association but I will miss the hard copy in its book configuration. Fritz
Re: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Fritz, you copied this over to texascavers instead of ot, not a big deal on this discussion, but we gotta watch what is cross-posted, many of us have been pretty open about things that are generally not discussed on tc and said a few things that would be hurtful to some thanks Charles On 1/17/08, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: RD, As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime. For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with what the officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of being a Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I liked caves. Fritz From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:56 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those. -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:29 PM To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, Most associations of this type rarely have the necessary funds to meet obligations and to implement goals. I would resist the idea of any reductions in the cost of membership and would endorse an increase. The annual membership cost is too low for the benefits enjoyed by the members. This is my opinion and I hope that of others. Fritz From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:41 PM To: Fritz Holt; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver It would still remain in a paper format, Fritz. You would just have the option of receiving it electronically, instead of in paper, at a reduced price. Thanks, Mark P.S. - Good idea about the membership application. From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wed 1/16/2008 12:22 PM To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, As the discussion in question is relevant caving business, I will give my opinion. I doubt whether few if any cavers are members of TSA solely to receive The Caver. So, going electronically should not diminish the membership rolls. Changing the format, making it available to all with its beautiful pictures and most interesting and informative information, may increase membership. It should have a membership application in each issue. I assume that when sent electronically the cost is the same regardless of the number of recipients. This sounds like a money saving idea for the association but I will miss the hard copy in its book configuration. Fritz
RE: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Charles, Although you signed me up for the OT site I'm not sure that I understand how to differentiate between the two and then post to the correct one. I added texas cavers to my reply to RD, not knowing that I was cross posting. I presume that I can tell which site the post is coming from and reply to the individual on that post. I would assume that the question asked of me and my response concerning TSA membership and dues was on topic. Sorry if I goofed and I certainly didn't realize that I said anything that would be hurtful or offensive to anyone. I will pay attention and learn how to do this correctly. Fritz -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 2:26 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, you copied this over to texascavers instead of ot, not a big deal on this discussion, but we gotta watch what is cross-posted, many of us have been pretty open about things that are generally not discussed on tc and said a few things that would be hurtful to some thanks Charles On 1/17/08, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: RD, As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime. For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with what the officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of being a Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I liked caves. Fritz From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:56 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those. -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:29 PM To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, Most associations of this type rarely have the necessary funds to meet obligations and to implement goals. I would resist the idea of any reductions in the cost of membership and would endorse an increase. The annual membership cost is too low for the benefits enjoyed by the members. This is my opinion and I hope that of others. Fritz From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:41 PM To: Fritz Holt; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver It would still remain in a paper format, Fritz. You would just have the option of receiving it electronically, instead of in paper, at a reduced price. Thanks, Mark P.S. - Good idea about the membership application. From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wed 1/16/2008 12:22 PM To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, As the discussion in question is relevant caving business, I will give my opinion. I doubt whether few if any cavers are members of TSA solely to receive The Caver. So, going electronically should not diminish the membership rolls. Changing the format, making it available to all with its beautiful pictures and most interesting and informative information, may increase membership. It should have a membership application in each issue. I assume that when sent electronically the cost is the same regardless
Re: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
It's pretty easy :) Most mail clients with this list will play nice if you hit reply to all, it will list all email addresses properly, you can then delete any that don't need to be sent to. If you just hit reply, it will just reply to the poster in a private message. You didn't say anything out of the ordinary, and thankfully someone had trimmed the original emails on that thread, somethings I said shouldn't be copied over to that main list. No harm done, but I want to prevent any more problems on that main list by someone accidently cross-posting. Thanks Fritz On 1/17/08, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: Charles, Although you signed me up for the OT site I'm not sure that I understand how to differentiate between the two and then post to the correct one. I added texas cavers to my reply to RD, not knowing that I was cross posting. I presume that I can tell which site the post is coming from and reply to the individual on that post. I would assume that the question asked of me and my response concerning TSA membership and dues was on topic. Sorry if I goofed and I certainly didn't realize that I said anything that would be hurtful or offensive to anyone. I will pay attention and learn how to do this correctly. Fritz -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 2:26 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, you copied this over to texascavers instead of ot, not a big deal on this discussion, but we gotta watch what is cross-posted, many of us have been pretty open about things that are generally not discussed on tc and said a few things that would be hurtful to some thanks Charles On 1/17/08, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: RD, As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime. For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with what the officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of being a Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I liked caves. Fritz From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:56 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those. -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:29 PM To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, Most associations of this type rarely have the necessary funds to meet obligations and to implement goals. I would resist the idea of any reductions in the cost of membership and would endorse an increase. The annual membership cost is too low for the benefits enjoyed by the members. This is my opinion and I hope that of others. Fritz From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:41 PM To: Fritz Holt; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver It would still remain in a paper format, Fritz. You would just have the option of receiving it electronically, instead of in paper, at a reduced price. Thanks, Mark P.S. - Good idea about the membership application
RE: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Thanks for your help Charles and I will endeavor to post correctly. I try to remember to delete unnecessary parts of a string for readers as I did on this one. Fritz -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 3:06 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver It's pretty easy :) Most mail clients with this list will play nice if you hit reply to all, it will list all email addresses properly, you can then delete any that don't need to be sent to. If you just hit reply, it will just reply to the poster in a private message. You didn't say anything out of the ordinary, and thankfully someone had trimmed the original emails on that thread, somethings I said shouldn't be copied over to that main list. No harm done, but I want to prevent any more problems on that main list by someone accidently cross-posting. Thanks Fritz On 1/17/08, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: Charles, Although you signed me up for the OT site I'm not sure that I understand how to differentiate between the two and then post to the correct one. I added texas cavers to my reply to RD, not knowing that I was cross posting. I presume that I can tell which site the post is coming from and reply to the individual on that post. I would assume that the question asked of me and my response concerning TSA membership and dues was on topic. Sorry if I goofed and I certainly didn't realize that I said anything that would be hurtful or offensive to anyone. I will pay attention and learn how to do this correctly. Fritz -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2008 2:26 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, you copied this over to texascavers instead of ot, not a big deal on this discussion, but we gotta watch what is cross-posted, many of us have been pretty open about things that are generally not discussed on tc and said a few things that would be hurtful to some thanks Charles On 1/17/08, Fritz Holt fh...@townandcountryins.com wrote: RD, As an old timer and spelunker in years past, I can only speak for myself as to the perceived benefits of TSA membership. I echo the thoughts of Charles Goldsmith and Jerry Atkinson and I like your thoughts of wanting to belong to a group of like-minded people with a common interest. Many of us march to a different drummer which makes for some interesting commentary. This is good. From kids to geezers, our common interests are somewhat out of the norm but are a fun and satisfying pastime. For me, whatever the cost of TSA membership may be, it is worth it for the enjoyment of camaraderie with others at TCR, the spring convention and at various caving activities. In addition, TSA as well as TCMA allows me to visit beautiful sites and caving areas that I would not otherwise know of or be able to access. I certainly realize that many cavers, especially younger ones, may be on a tight budget and therefore I will go along with what the officers of the organizations deem is an appropriate amount for dues. I feel that the more income the associations generate, the more involved they can become with education, acquisition and conservation of our caves and their inhabitants. I justify membership costs by the degree of enjoyment derived, including some of these dumb posts. My wife accused me of being a Neanderthal and dumb as a post and this was before she knew that I liked caves. Fritz From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:56 PM To: Fritz Holt Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those. -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:29 PM To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, Most associations of this type rarely have the necessary funds to meet obligations and to implement goals. I would resist the idea of any reductions in the cost of membership and would endorse an increase. The annual membership cost is too low for the benefits enjoyed by the members. This is my opinion and I hope that of others. Fritz From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:41 PM To: Fritz Holt; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com
[ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Thanks, Charles. Actually, I have received more compliments than complaints on the TC, so I shouldn't bitch. The issue of electronic format versus paper has reared its head more times than I can count and it is usually the more chronologically-challenged curmudgeons that shoot it down. At this past TSA business meeting, it was decided that me and two other volunteers would look in to a two-tiered membership program that would have reduced fees for those getting the TC electronically. We just would have to make sure that with these reduced fees, the TC would still pay for itself and that the TSA would remain viable. The other concern, mine included, would be that this file would be sent all over the place, and even to cavers that weren't members. heck, if they can get it for free, why join the TSA? This is probably the main reason a lot of folks are against this. I know when I was doing the DFWG newsletter, it was the reasoning against going electronic. We'll have something by the spring convention and business meeting. The other hurdle, if the above was passed, is actually emailing the TC. Even in compressed PDF format, the TC is quite huge. (I like a lot of pictures!). A boycott wouldn't be the answer, IMHO. Having a LOT of like-minded members at the next meeting where we can vote this thru would be the best. So far, democracy is keeping this from going forward. Gotta love it! Later, Mark From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Tue 1/15/2008 1:18 PM To: Alman, Mark @ IRP Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: TexasCaver Thank you Mark, the outpouring of thanks I've received today was very nice. Speaking of the TexasCaver and a thankless job of the editor, great job on the newsletters, I enjoy them immensely and need to renew my membership. I'll ask on here, because I know its been a touchy subject on the main list before, but why in hell do we not go to an electronic format? That would save you a lot of time, printing and mailing them, and we would get full color magazines. This is after all 2008 and printed material only costs more money and time. Would a boycott be in order to get some older, hard-headed people to embrace the technology of today? Charles, grandmaster of soap-boxing today
Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
All good points Mark, but emailing a large PDF isn't good, instead, have a members section on the webpage where it could be downloaded. Maverick grotto has a great setup, for 3 months, a newsletter is on the private section, after that, it goes to the public one. I've never attended a TSA meeting, location is usually wrong for me :) Does the TSA allow voting by proxy? I hope the new approach will work, we need to get into the modern age. Charles On 1/16/08, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: Thanks, Charles. Actually, I have received more compliments than complaints on the TC, so I shouldn't bitch. The issue of electronic format versus paper has reared its head more times than I can count and it is usually the more chronologically-challenged curmudgeons that shoot it down. At this past TSA business meeting, it was decided that me and two other volunteers would look in to a two-tiered membership program that would have reduced fees for those getting the TC electronically. We just would have to make sure that with these reduced fees, the TC would still pay for itself and that the TSA would remain viable. The other concern, mine included, would be that this file would be sent all over the place, and even to cavers that weren't members. heck, if they can get it for free, why join the TSA? This is probably the main reason a lot of folks are against this. I know when I was doing the DFWG newsletter, it was the reasoning against going electronic. We'll have something by the spring convention and business meeting. The other hurdle, if the above was passed, is actually emailing the TC. Even in compressed PDF format, the TC is quite huge. (I like a lot of pictures!). A boycott wouldn't be the answer, IMHO. Having a LOT of like-minded members at the next meeting where we can vote this thru would be the best. So far, democracy is keeping this from going forward. Gotta love it! Later, Mark -- *From:* Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] *Sent:* Tue 1/15/2008 1:18 PM *To:* Alman, Mark @ IRP *Cc:* Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com *Subject:* TexasCaver Thank you Mark, the outpouring of thanks I've received today was very nice. Speaking of the TexasCaver and a thankless job of the editor, great job on the newsletters, I enjoy them immensely and need to renew my membership. I'll ask on here, because I know its been a touchy subject on the main list before, but why in hell do we not go to an electronic format? That would save you a lot of time, printing and mailing them, and we would get full color magazines. This is after all 2008 and printed material only costs more money and time. Would a boycott be in order to get some older, hard-headed people to embrace the technology of today? Charles, grandmaster of soap-boxing today
RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Mark, As the discussion in question is relevant caving business, I will give my opinion. I doubt whether few if any cavers are members of TSA solely to receive The Caver. So, going electronically should not diminish the membership rolls. Changing the format, making it available to all with its beautiful pictures and most interesting and informative information, may increase membership. It should have a membership application in each issue. I assume that when sent electronically the cost is the same regardless of the number of recipients. This sounds like a money saving idea for the association but I will miss the hard copy in its book configuration. Fritz _ From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 11:41 AM To: Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Thanks, Charles. Actually, I have received more compliments than complaints on the TC, so I shouldn't bitch. The issue of electronic format versus paper has reared its head more times than I can count and it is usually the more chronologically-challenged curmudgeons that shoot it down. At this past TSA business meeting, it was decided that me and two other volunteers would look in to a two-tiered membership program that would have reduced fees for those getting the TC electronically. We just would have to make sure that with these reduced fees, the TC would still pay for itself and that the TSA would remain viable. The other concern, mine included, would be that this file would be sent all over the place, and even to cavers that weren't members. heck, if they can get it for free, why join the TSA? This is probably the main reason a lot of folks are against this. I know when I was doing the DFWG newsletter, it was the reasoning against going electronic. We'll have something by the spring convention and business meeting. The other hurdle, if the above was passed, is actually emailing the TC. Even in compressed PDF format, the TC is quite huge. (I like a lot of pictures!). A boycott wouldn't be the answer, IMHO. Having a LOT of like-minded members at the next meeting where we can vote this thru would be the best. So far, democracy is keeping this from going forward. Gotta love it! Later, Mark _ From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Tue 1/15/2008 1:18 PM To: Alman, Mark @ IRP Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: TexasCaver Thank you Mark, the outpouring of thanks I've received today was very nice. Speaking of the TexasCaver and a thankless job of the editor, great job on the newsletters, I enjoy them immensely and need to renew my membership. I'll ask on here, because I know its been a touchy subject on the main list before, but why in hell do we not go to an electronic format? That would save you a lot of time, printing and mailing them, and we would get full color magazines. This is after all 2008 and printed material only costs more money and time. Would a boycott be in order to get some older, hard-headed people to embrace the technology of today? Charles, grandmaster of soap-boxing today
[ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Somehow I ended up on the TSA format war committee along with George-Paul of the Houston Grotto. I'm not sure what our strategy will be. You should hear back from us at some point on this. There were a few ideas tossed around at the meeting last Saturday, so we have some stuff to chew on already. Simon On 16 Jan 2008 17:40:22 -, ot-digest-h...@texascavers.com wrote: -- Forwarded message -- From: mark.al...@l-3com.com To: Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 11:40:44 -0600 Subject: RE: TexasCaver Thanks, Charles. Actually, I have received more compliments than complaints on the TC, so I shouldn't bitch. The issue of electronic format versus paper has reared its head more times than I can count and it is usually the more chronologically-challenged curmudgeons that shoot it down. At this past TSA business meeting, it was decided that me and two other volunteers would look in to a two-tiered membership program that would have reduced fees for those getting the TC electronically. We just would have to make sure that with these reduced fees, the TC would still pay for itself and that the TSA would remain viable. The other concern, mine included, would be that this file would be sent all over the place, and even to cavers that weren't members. heck, if they can get it for free, why join the TSA? This is probably the main reason a lot of folks are against this. I know when I was doing the DFWG newsletter, it was the reasoning against going electronic. We'll have something by the spring convention and business meeting. The other hurdle, if the above was passed, is actually emailing the TC. Even in compressed PDF format, the TC is quite huge. (I like a lot of pictures!). A boycott wouldn't be the answer, IMHO. Having a LOT of like-minded members at the next meeting where we can vote this thru would be the best. So far, democracy is keeping this from going forward. Gotta love it! Later, Mark - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
It would still remain in a paper format, Fritz. You would just have the option of receiving it electronically, instead of in paper, at a reduced price. Thanks, Mark P.S. - Good idea about the membership application. From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wed 1/16/2008 12:22 PM To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, As the discussion in question is relevant caving business, I will give my opinion. I doubt whether few if any cavers are members of TSA solely to receive The Caver. So, going electronically should not diminish the membership rolls. Changing the format, making it available to all with its beautiful pictures and most interesting and informative information, may increase membership. It should have a membership application in each issue. I assume that when sent electronically the cost is the same regardless of the number of recipients. This sounds like a money saving idea for the association but I will miss the hard copy in its book configuration. Fritz
RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Mark, Most associations of this type rarely have the necessary funds to meet obligations and to implement goals. I would resist the idea of any reductions in the cost of membership and would endorse an increase. The annual membership cost is too low for the benefits enjoyed by the members. This is my opinion and I hope that of others. Fritz _ From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:41 PM To: Fritz Holt; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver It would still remain in a paper format, Fritz. You would just have the option of receiving it electronically, instead of in paper, at a reduced price. Thanks, Mark P.S. - Good idea about the membership application. _ From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wed 1/16/2008 12:22 PM To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, As the discussion in question is relevant caving business, I will give my opinion. I doubt whether few if any cavers are members of TSA solely to receive The Caver. So, going electronically should not diminish the membership rolls. Changing the format, making it available to all with its beautiful pictures and most interesting and informative information, may increase membership. It should have a membership application in each issue. I assume that when sent electronically the cost is the same regardless of the number of recipients. This sounds like a money saving idea for the association but I will miss the hard copy in its book configuration. Fritz
RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
That's not a bad idea, Fritz. Going from $20 a year to $25 wouldn't break anyone's household budget. Keeping the family membership at $30 seems reasonable. When was the last time dues were raised? Does anyone here know? Thanks, Mark From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:29 PM To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, Most associations of this type rarely have the necessary funds to meet obligations and to implement goals. I would resist the idea of any reductions in the cost of membership and would endorse an increase. The annual membership cost is too low for the benefits enjoyed by the members. This is my opinion and I hope that of others. Fritz From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:41 PM To: Fritz Holt; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver It would still remain in a paper format, Fritz. You would just have the option of receiving it electronically, instead of in paper, at a reduced price. Thanks, Mark P.S. - Good idea about the membership application. From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wed 1/16/2008 12:22 PM To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, As the discussion in question is relevant caving business, I will give my opinion. I doubt whether few if any cavers are members of TSA solely to receive The Caver. So, going electronically should not diminish the membership rolls. Changing the format, making it available to all with its beautiful pictures and most interesting and informative information, may increase membership. It should have a membership application in each issue. I assume that when sent electronically the cost is the same regardless of the number of recipients. This sounds like a money saving idea for the association but I will miss the hard copy in its book configuration. Fritz
Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
I know this wouldn't go over, but I would think $25 a year for electronic and a bit more for a paper newsletter would be best. This would give the organization more money (dunno if they need more) and also help cover the rising costs of printing/mailing the newsletter. On 1/16/08, mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: That's not a bad idea, Fritz. Going from $20 a year to $25 wouldn't break anyone's household budget. Keeping the family membership at $30 seems reasonable. When was the last time dues were raised? Does anyone here know? Thanks, Mark From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:29 PM To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, Most associations of this type rarely have the necessary funds to meet obligations and to implement goals. I would resist the idea of any reductions in the cost of membership and would endorse an increase. The annual membership cost is too low for the benefits enjoyed by the members. This is my opinion and I hope that of others. Fritz From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:41 PM To: Fritz Holt; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver It would still remain in a paper format, Fritz. You would just have the option of receiving it electronically, instead of in paper, at a reduced price. Thanks, Mark P.S. - Good idea about the membership application. From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wed 1/16/2008 12:22 PM To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, As the discussion in question is relevant caving business, I will give my opinion. I doubt whether few if any cavers are members of TSA solely to receive The Caver. So, going electronically should not diminish the membership rolls. Changing the format, making it available to all with its beautiful pictures and most interesting and informative information, may increase membership. It should have a membership application in each issue. I assume that when sent electronically the cost is the same regardless of the number of recipients. This sounds like a money saving idea for the association but I will miss the hard copy in its book configuration. Fritz
RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
-Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:29 PM To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, Most associations of this type rarely have the necessary funds to meet obligations and to implement goals. I would resist the idea of any reductions in the cost of membership and would endorse an increase. The annual membership cost is too low for the benefits enjoyed by the members. This is my opinion and I hope that of others. Fritz -- From: mark.al...@l-3com.com [mailto:mark.al...@l-3com.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 1:41 PM To: Fritz Holt; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver It would still remain in a paper format, Fritz. You would just have the option of receiving it electronically, instead of in paper, at a reduced price. Thanks, Mark P.S. - Good idea about the membership application. -- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wed 1/16/2008 12:22 PM To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, As the discussion in question is relevant caving business, I will give my opinion. I doubt whether few if any cavers are members of TSA solely to receive The Caver. So, going electronically should not diminish the membership rolls. Changing the format, making it available to all with its beautiful pictures and most interesting and informative information, may increase membership. It should have a membership application in each issue. I assume that when sent electronically the cost is the same regardless of the number of recipients. This sounds like a money saving idea for the association but I will miss the hard copy in its book configuration. Fritz
Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
So this topic just went on topic - is there a protocol to handle this? :-) I think the idea was that a few of us would make some back of the envelope calculations for a few different ideas and present it back to the higher authorities. I'm sure the ideas will be posted here at some point. I need to ping G-P and a few others to get some background from the longtime members. FWIW, I believe more people opposed the idea than supported it at the TSA meeting last Saturday. That is why we ended up with this committee to look into the nitty gritty. This is going to take some time... Simon On 16 Jan 2008 22:01:16 -, ot-digest-h...@texascavers.com wrote: -- Forwarded message -- From: Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org To: mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:39:25 -0600 Subject: Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver I know this wouldn't go over, but I would think $25 a year for electronic and a bit more for a paper newsletter would be best. This would give the organization more money (dunno if they need more) and also help cover the rising costs of printing/mailing the newsletter. - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
I know there are just a handful of people that are making that decsion, and another handful that attend the meetings, most members don't do they? A request from someone that can't attend meetings easily, can we get some type of vote from the entire membership on this? Does the TSA support this type of thing aside from the yearly elections? Charles On 1/16/08, Simon Newton csnew...@gmail.com wrote: So this topic just went on topic - is there a protocol to handle this? :-) I think the idea was that a few of us would make some back of the envelope calculations for a few different ideas and present it back to the higher authorities. I'm sure the ideas will be posted here at some point. I need to ping G-P and a few others to get some background from the longtime members. FWIW, I believe more people opposed the idea than supported it at the TSA meeting last Saturday. That is why we ended up with this committee to look into the nitty gritty. This is going to take some time... Simon On 16 Jan 2008 22:01:16 -, ot-digest-h...@texascavers.com wrote: -- Forwarded message -- From: Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org To: mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:39:25 -0600 Subject: Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver I know this wouldn't go over, but I would think $25 a year for electronic and a bit more for a paper newsletter would be best. This would give the organization more money (dunno if they need more) and also help cover the rising costs of printing/mailing the newsletter. - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Hmm, I can't seem to get this to post righ... let me try this message for the third time: Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those. -Original Message- From: RD Milhollin [mailto:rdmilhol...@charter.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 4:01 PM To: o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver -Original Message- From: Fritz Holt [mailto:fh...@townandcountryins.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 2:29 PM To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Charles Goldsmith Cc: Kara Savvas; Johnson, Russ (ATX); imoca...@comcast.net; Scott Nicholson; o...@texascavers.com Subject: RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver Mark, Most associations of this type rarely have the necessary funds to meet obligations and to implement goals. I would resist the idea of any reductions in the cost of membership and would endorse an increase. The annual membership cost is too low for the benefits enjoyed by the members. This is my opinion and I hope that of others. Fritz
Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
I'll chime in here, as a TSA member and what I see coming out of this organization. Aside from the obvious, the newsletter, the TSA also has several projects that are on-going. Land purchase, helping with Honey Creek, CBSP, TSS, TCR/Spring Convention and others. I'm sure that I didn't get nearly all of the things, but from what I've seen, the TSA does a lot and could do more with extra funding, saving cash on doing bulk mails. Charles On 1/16/08, RD Milhollin rdmilhol...@charter.net wrote: Hmm, I can't seem to get this to post righ... let me try this message for the third time: Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those.
RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Each grotto has (or should have) a newsletter. The projects are the result of individual initiative and followup, and could be done without the help of any organization. I am not aware of the TSA purchasing land/caves. I know the TCMA and TCC do, and I support both of those organizations. Honey Creek, CBSP: see projects above. TSS is a private corporation, as far as I know. Please correct me if I am mistaken. TCR is a stand-alone affair/organization/happening. The Spring Convention is a worthy endeavor, certainly worthy of support, but not $20-30 per year from people who might not even be able to make it there. I don't see that the TSA actually does a lot. You haven't yet convinced me. FWIW I am not a TSA member, I once was but chose not to renew several years ago. I would consider rejoining and becoming involved if I could convince myself that it served a purpose not covered either by individuals who choose to take on tasks for the loive of it, or by other caving organizations; and if I could feel that the dues justified the returns. It doesn't count but my vote would be to have an electronic newsletter available to those who don't want paper, and for a considerable break in the dues, as was mentioned in a previous post. -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 5:48 PM To: RD Milhollin Cc: o...@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver I'll chime in here, as a TSA member and what I see coming out of this organization. Aside from the obvious, the newsletter, the TSA also has several projects that are on-going. Land purchase, helping with Honey Creek, CBSP, TSS, TCR/Spring Convention and others. I'm sure that I didn't get nearly all of the things, but from what I've seen, the TSA does a lot and could do more with extra funding, saving cash on doing bulk mails. Charles On 1/16/08, RD Milhollin rdmilhol...@charter.net wrote: Hmm, I can't seem to get this to post righ... let me try this message for the third time: Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those. - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
The TSA does have funds for land/cave purchase, its invested currently. I don't know if it was approved, but I do know a grant was put forth towards the TSA for $1200 to help improve Honey Creek entrance. The next meeting for TSA will be at CBSP I think, that alone will support that project, driving people there. I'm not an active member of TSA, but I have been a member for a couple of years and these are the types of things that I've seen happening and it's why I'm a member. To each his own. On 1/16/08, RD Milhollin rdmilhol...@charter.net wrote: Each grotto has (or should have) a newsletter. The projects are the result of individual initiative and followup, and could be done without the help of any organization. I am not aware of the TSA purchasing land/caves. I know the TCMA and TCC do, and I support both of those organizations. Honey Creek, CBSP: see projects above. TSS is a private corporation, as far as I know. Please correct me if I am mistaken. TCR is a stand-alone affair/organization/happening. The Spring Convention is a worthy endeavor, certainly worthy of support, but not $20-30 per year from people who might not even be able to make it there. I don't see that the TSA actually does a lot. You haven't yet convinced me. FWIW I am not a TSA member, I once was but chose not to renew several years ago. I would consider rejoining and becoming involved if I could convince myself that it served a purpose not covered either by individuals who choose to take on tasks for the loive of it, or by other caving organizations; and if I could feel that the dues justified the returns. It doesn't count but my vote would be to have an electronic newsletter available to those who don't want paper, and for a considerable break in the dues, as was mentioned in a previous post. -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 5:48 PM To: RD Milhollin Cc: o...@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver I'll chime in here, as a TSA member and what I see coming out of this organization. Aside from the obvious, the newsletter, the TSA also has several projects that are on-going. Land purchase, helping with Honey Creek, CBSP, TSS, TCR/Spring Convention and others. I'm sure that I didn't get nearly all of the things, but from what I've seen, the TSA does a lot and could do more with extra funding, saving cash on doing bulk mails. Charles On 1/16/08, RD Milhollin rdmilhol...@charter.net wrote: Hmm, I can't seem to get this to post righ... let me try this message for the third time: Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those. - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
RD, I'm not trying to be argumentative with all of this, I see a value and maybe the TSA doesn't properly educate potential members about what they do. Could they do better, sure! I have never made a meeting, but I do try to read the meetings notes and such, that's where I knew all of this information from: http://www.cavetexas.org/TSA/meetingminutes.html The TSA is sitting on a nice tidy sum of cash, they also spend a lot, mainly postage on the newsletter. talk to ya later Charles On 1/16/08, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: The TSA does have funds for land/cave purchase, its invested currently. I don't know if it was approved, but I do know a grant was put forth towards the TSA for $1200 to help improve Honey Creek entrance. The next meeting for TSA will be at CBSP I think, that alone will support that project, driving people there. I'm not an active member of TSA, but I have been a member for a couple of years and these are the types of things that I've seen happening and it's why I'm a member. To each his own. On 1/16/08, RD Milhollin rdmilhol...@charter.net wrote: Each grotto has (or should have) a newsletter. The projects are the result of individual initiative and followup, and could be done without the help of any organization. I am not aware of the TSA purchasing land/caves. I know the TCMA and TCC do, and I support both of those organizations. Honey Creek, CBSP: see projects above. TSS is a private corporation, as far as I know. Please correct me if I am mistaken. TCR is a stand-alone affair/organization/happening. The Spring Convention is a worthy endeavor, certainly worthy of support, but not $20-30 per year from people who might not even be able to make it there. I don't see that the TSA actually does a lot. You haven't yet convinced me. FWIW I am not a TSA member, I once was but chose not to renew several years ago. I would consider rejoining and becoming involved if I could convince myself that it served a purpose not covered either by individuals who choose to take on tasks for the loive of it, or by other caving organizations; and if I could feel that the dues justified the returns. It doesn't count but my vote would be to have an electronic newsletter available to those who don't want paper, and for a considerable break in the dues, as was mentioned in a previous post. -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 5:48 PM To: RD Milhollin Cc: o...@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver I'll chime in here, as a TSA member and what I see coming out of this organization. Aside from the obvious, the newsletter, the TSA also has several projects that are on-going. Land purchase, helping with Honey Creek, CBSP, TSS, TCR/Spring Convention and others. I'm sure that I didn't get nearly all of the things, but from what I've seen, the TSA does a lot and could do more with extra funding, saving cash on doing bulk mails. Charles On 1/16/08, RD Milhollin rdmilhol...@charter.net wrote: Hmm, I can't seem to get this to post righ... let me try this message for the third time: Fritz, for the sake of good natured argument, please enumerate said benefits and the value you place on those. - Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
Charles, Thanks for engaging in discussion. I asked for a civil discussion, and I hope I participated thusly. I appreciate you sticking your head up and offering a comeback to my questions, I know your feeling is genuine but I do feel it strengthed my argument, since your examples are those most Texas cavers would have offered up as well. I started this thread in hope of getting discussion going that could turn up some new ideas, or even old ideas never adopted that could turn the TSA into a viable, purposeful organization, and show a real, tangible benefit to members, for a reasonable price. Nah... JUST KIDDING! Cheers, RD
Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver
The subject of having an electronic version of the Texas Caver has been brought up several times over the last 6 years. We even had a mailout ballot to the membership requesting their preference. It came back about 50:50 at the time indicating that a hardcopy would still be needed to satisfy much of the membership. Also, libraries, of which we had about 4 subscriptions at the time, did not have the ability to receive and archive digital versions of the TxCvr. It certainly has not been a decision that has been pushed through by a minority of officers and delegates. Times change and the membership will most likely prefer an electronic version eventually. It's certainly a topic that needs to be brought up again on a yearly basis. Jerry. In a message dated 1/16/2008 4:32:43 P.M. Central Standard Time, wo...@justfamily.org writes: I know there are just a handful of people that are making that decsion, and another handful that attend the meetings, most members don't do they? A request from someone that can't attend meetings easily, can we get some type of vote from the entire membership on this? Does the TSA support this type of thing aside from the yearly elections? Charles On 1/16/08, Simon Newton csnew...@gmail.com wrote: So this topic just went on topic - is there a protocol to handle this? :-) I think the idea was that a few of us would make some back of the envelope calculations for a few different ideas and present it back to the higher authorities. I'm sure the ideas will be posted here at some point. I need to ping G-P and a few others to get some background from the longtime members. FWIW, I believe more people opposed the idea than supported it at the TSA meeting last Saturday. That is why we ended up with this committee to look into the nitty gritty. This is going to take some time... Simon On 16 Jan 2008 22:01:16 -, ot-digest-h...@texascavers.com wrote: -- Forwarded message -- From: Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org To: mark.al...@l-3com.com mark.al...@l-3com.com Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 14:39:25 -0600 Subject: Re: [ot_caving] RE: TexasCaver I know this wouldn't go over, but I would think $25 a year for electronic and a bit more for a paper newsletter would be best.This would give the organization more money (dunno if they need more) and also help cover the rising costs of printing/mailing the newsletter. **Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp0030002489
