[U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Charles Barouch]

All,
   The U2UG board has been discussing the 'incubator plan' and we will 
soon be presenting a draft proposal to membership. Here's what we are 
discussing in broad brushstrokes - all feedback appreciated.


   We want an *easy* *legal* way to get PE editions into the hands of 
business people, college students, entrepreneurs, and other market 
expanders. More than that, we need to get people a version of the PE 
software which is chock full of examples, training materials, and useful 
information.


   Here's what we have in mind: We want to build an installer which 
pulls the PE editions from the IBM website (allowing the user to sign 
the IBM agreement), pulls Learner Packs from the U2UG website (allowing 
the user to sign the U2UG agreement - designed to protect the content 
all of you will - hopefully - contribute). Finally, the installer will 
bootstrap the Learner Packs into the PE installation, so the accounts, 
files, and programs, etc. are all in place.
The end result will be a full install, with URLs to get them to the 
U2UG and other key locations. It will allow people to see our technology 
in the best light possible. Opinions? Flames? Offers to Help?


   Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
   P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Brutzman, Bill]

Outstanding... I am 1000% in favor of this initiative.

I have never been able to get PE to work on a PC... always running into
install problems.

Beefing up PE would be the best advertizing that IBM could hope for...

--Bill

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Charles Barouch
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 11:39 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: [U2] Incubator - News from the board


All,
The U2UG board has been discussing the 'incubator plan' and we will 
soon be presenting a draft proposal to membership. Here's what we are 
discussing in broad brushstrokes - all feedback appreciated.

We want an *easy* *legal* way to get PE editions into the hands of 
business people, college students, entrepreneurs, and other market 
expanders. More than that, we need to get people a version of the PE 
software which is chock full of examples, training materials, and useful 
information.

Here's what we have in mind: We want to build an installer which 
pulls the PE editions from the IBM website (allowing the user to sign 
the IBM agreement), pulls Learner Packs from the U2UG website (allowing 
the user to sign the U2UG agreement - designed to protect the content 
all of you will - hopefully - contribute). Finally, the installer will 
bootstrap the Learner Packs into the PE installation, so the accounts, 
files, and programs, etc. are all in place.
 The end result will be a full install, with URLs to get them to the 
U2UG and other key locations. It will allow people to see our technology 
in the best light possible. Opinions? Flames? Offers to Help?

Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[BNeylon]

Is there a possibility of adding a Terminal emulator?  Accuterm for 
instance?

Bruce M Neylon
Health Care Management Group 




Charles Barouch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
05/09/2007 11:39 PM
Please respond to
u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org


To
u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
cc

Subject
[U2] Incubator - News from the board






All,
The U2UG board has been discussing the 'incubator plan' and we will 
soon be presenting a draft proposal to membership. Here's what we are 
discussing in broad brushstrokes - all feedback appreciated.

We want an *easy* *legal* way to get PE editions into the hands of 
business people, college students, entrepreneurs, and other market 
expanders. More than that, we need to get people a version of the PE 
software which is chock full of examples, training materials, and useful 
information.

Here's what we have in mind: We want to build an installer which 
pulls the PE editions from the IBM website (allowing the user to sign 
the IBM agreement), pulls Learner Packs from the U2UG website (allowing 
the user to sign the U2UG agreement - designed to protect the content 
all of you will - hopefully - contribute). Finally, the installer will 
bootstrap the Learner Packs into the PE installation, so the accounts, 
files, and programs, etc. are all in place.
 The end result will be a full install, with URLs to get them to the 
U2UG and other key locations. It will allow people to see our technology 
in the best light possible. Opinions? Flames? Offers to Help?

Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Anthony Youngman]

I'm trying to get a working Gentoo at home. That's a game and a half :-)

When I succeed I'll likely try and create an ebuild to install UVPE. Be
nice to get that officially into portage :-)

(I want to get a WordPerfect 8 ebuild working, too :-)

Cheers,
Wol

-Original Message-
From: Brutzman, Bill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 10 May 2007 15:41
To: 'u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org'
Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

Outstanding... I am 1000% in favor of this initiative.

I have never been able to get PE to work on a PC... always running into
install problems.

Beefing up PE would be the best advertizing that IBM could hope for...

--Bill

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Charles Barouch
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 11:39 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: [U2] Incubator - News from the board


All,
The U2UG board has been discussing the 'incubator plan' and we will 
soon be presenting a draft proposal to membership. Here's what we are 
discussing in broad brushstrokes - all feedback appreciated.

We want an *easy* *legal* way to get PE editions into the hands of 
business people, college students, entrepreneurs, and other market 
expanders. More than that, we need to get people a version of the PE 
software which is chock full of examples, training materials, and useful

information.

Here's what we have in mind: We want to build an installer which 
pulls the PE editions from the IBM website (allowing the user to sign 
the IBM agreement), pulls Learner Packs from the U2UG website (allowing 
the user to sign the U2UG agreement - designed to protect the content 
all of you will - hopefully - contribute). Finally, the installer will 
bootstrap the Learner Packs into the PE installation, so the accounts, 
files, and programs, etc. are all in place.
 The end result will be a full install, with URLs to get them to the

U2UG and other key locations. It will allow people to see our technology

in the best light possible. Opinions? Flames? Offers to Help?

Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[karlp]

Adding an emulator is a great idea, however it should be an IBM product.
Much easier to make a business case expanding the IBM product line than
any third party products.

My 2 bits

Karl


> Is there a possibility of adding a Terminal emulator?  Accuterm for
> instance?
>
> Bruce M Neylon
> Health Care Management Group
>
>
>
>
> Charles Barouch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 05/09/2007 11:39 PM
> Please respond to
> u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
>
>
> To
> u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> cc
>
> Subject
> [U2] Incubator - News from the board
>
>
>
>
>
>
> All,
> The U2UG board has been discussing the 'incubator plan' and we will
> soon be presenting a draft proposal to membership. Here's what we are
> discussing in broad brushstrokes - all feedback appreciated.
>
> We want an *easy* *legal* way to get PE editions into the hands of
> business people, college students, entrepreneurs, and other market
> expanders. More than that, we need to get people a version of the PE
> software which is chock full of examples, training materials, and useful
> information.
>
> Here's what we have in mind: We want to build an installer which
> pulls the PE editions from the IBM website (allowing the user to sign
> the IBM agreement), pulls Learner Packs from the U2UG website (allowing
> the user to sign the U2UG agreement - designed to protect the content
> all of you will - hopefully - contribute). Finally, the installer will
> bootstrap the Learner Packs into the PE installation, so the accounts,
> files, and programs, etc. are all in place.
>  The end result will be a full install, with URLs to get them to the
> U2UG and other key locations. It will allow people to see our technology
> in the best light possible. Opinions? Flames? Offers to Help?
>
> Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
> P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
> ---
> u2-users mailing list
> u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
> ---
> u2-users mailing list
> u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
>


-- 
Karl Pearson
Director of I.T.
ATS Industrial Supply, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.atsindustrial.com
800-789-9300 x29
Local: 801-978-4429
Fax: 801-972-3888

"To mess up your Linux PC, you have to really work at it;
 to mess up a microsoft PC you just have to work on it."
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Gabriel Green]

Can I ask a silly question--why are there no MV books in bookstores in
print?

Anyone want to write one? ;-)

Is the MV market expanding, shrinking, or staying stagnant?  Does IBM plan
to really start promoting U2 or is it just something they acquired to get a
few large customers?  Anybody?

Gabe
On 5/9/07, Charles Barouch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> All,
> The U2UG board has been discussing the 'incubator plan' and we will
> soon be presenting a draft proposal to membership. Here's what we are
> discussing in broad brushstrokes - all feedback appreciated.
>
> We want an *easy* *legal* way to get PE editions into the hands of
> business people, college students, entrepreneurs, and other market
> expanders. More than that, we need to get people a version of the PE
> software which is chock full of examples, training materials, and useful
> information.
>
> Here's what we have in mind: We want to build an installer which
> pulls the PE editions from the IBM website (allowing the user to sign
> the IBM agreement), pulls Learner Packs from the U2UG website (allowing
> the user to sign the U2UG agreement - designed to protect the content
> all of you will - hopefully - contribute). Finally, the installer will
> bootstrap the Learner Packs into the PE installation, so the accounts,
> files, and programs, etc. are all in place.
>  The end result will be a full install, with URLs to get them to the
> U2UG and other key locations. It will allow people to see our technology
> in the best light possible. Opinions? Flames? Offers to Help?
>
> Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
> P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
> ---
> u2-users mailing list
> u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Normandin, Jerry]

What?? I've been an active gentoo user/contributor since 2004.  Have you
ever went to gentoo.org and read or wrote to the forums?   I run gentoo
on the ppc platform and also the AMD platform.  Recently I did an
in-place upgrade on my firewall from 2004.1 to 2006.2... and it went
successfully.
If this is your first install, download the "minimal" install cd, get
the box booted,   ssh to the box from a web connected pc,  go to
www.gentoo.org
And hit the doc section,  follow the docs for your platform.  You gotta
love how well gentoo does in-place upgrades.  It handles this very well.



Jerry Normandin
 


 

|   System Level II 
Intuit Eclipse
Distribution Management Solutions

75 Perseverance Way
Hyannis, MA 02601
T 508.778.9151 Ext. 1245
F 508.778.6443
www.eclipse.intuit.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   


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-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony
Youngman
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:19 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

I'm trying to get a working Gentoo at home. That's a game and a half :-)

When I succeed I'll likely try and create an ebuild to install UVPE. Be
nice to get that officially into portage :-)

(I want to get a WordPerfect 8 ebuild working, too :-)

Cheers,
Wol

-Original Message-
From: Brutzman, Bill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 10 May 2007 15:41
To: 'u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org'
Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

Outstanding... I am 1000% in favor of this initiative.

I have never been able to get PE to work on a PC... always running into
install problems.

Beefing up PE would be the best advertizing that IBM could hope for...

--Bill

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Charles Barouch
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 11:39 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: [U2] Incubator - News from the board


All,
The U2UG board has been discussing the 'incubator plan' and we will 
soon be presenting a draft proposal to membership. Here's what we are 
discussing in broad brushstrokes - all feedback appreciated.

We want an *easy* *legal* way to get PE editions into the hands of 
business people, college students, entrepreneurs, and other market 
expanders. More than that, we need to get people a version of the PE 
software which is chock full of examples, training materials, and useful

information.

Here's what we have in mind: We want to build an installer which 
pulls the PE editions from the IBM website (allowing the user to sign 
the IBM agreement), pulls Learner Packs from the U2UG website (allowing 
the user to sign the U2UG agreement - designed to protect the content 
all of you will - hopefully - contribute). Finally, the installer will 
bootstrap the Learner Packs into the PE installation, so the accounts, 
files, and programs, etc. are all in place.
 The end result will be a full install, with URLs to get them to the

U2UG and other key locations. It will allow people to see our technology

in the best light possible. Opinions? Flames? Offers to Help?

Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Vance E Alspach (J&L - SFD)]

My version of UVPE and UDPE came with Dymanic Connect (a streamlined version
of Wintegrate).  It serves all of my emulation needs.  Actually, we have
deployed it here instead of our proprietary emulation.

Vance 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:25 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

Adding an emulator is a great idea, however it should be an IBM product.
Much easier to make a business case expanding the IBM product line than
any third party products.

My 2 bits

Karl
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Ken Hall]

At 08:39 PM 5/9/2007, you wrote:
   Here's what we have in mind: We want to build an installer which 
pulls the PE editions from the IBM website (allowing the user to 
sign the IBM agreement), pulls Learner Packs from the U2UG website 
(allowing the user to sign the U2UG agreement - designed to protect 
the content all of you will - hopefully - contribute). Finally, the 
installer will bootstrap the Learner Packs into the PE 
installation, so the accounts, files, and programs, etc. are all in place.
The end result will be a full install, with URLs to get them to 
the U2UG and other key locations. It will allow people to see our 
technology in the best light possible. Opinions? Flames? Offers to Help?


Great Idea! I have wondered for years why this kind of package is not 
available for multi-value trials.


We need something that a new user can easily understand and use 
without prior training.


Ken
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Thomas Derwin]

Last I looked, Dynamic Connect was bundled with the PE editions. It was
included in the "clients" zip file, rather than the "pe" zip file.

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/10/07 11:24 AM >>>
Adding an emulator is a great idea, however it should be an IBM product.


Karl


> Is there a possibility of adding a Terminal emulator?  Accuterm for
> instance?
>
> Bruce M Neylon
> Health Care Management Group
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Gabriel Green]

Good luck with that.  All I have to say about Gentoo is be careful with
compiler flags going a little too crazy and ports (or whatever they call
them, I forget) getting out of sync.

Would be nice to get UV on FreeBSD but it seems to work beautifully on
Windows.. no complaints so far =)  Microsoft apparently put enough hard work
into Windows to turn it from the toy that was NT4 into a robust OS suitable
for enterprise use (didn't think I'd ever say that 8 years ago...)

Gabe

On 5/10/07, Anthony Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'm trying to get a working Gentoo at home. That's a game and a half :-)
>
> When I succeed I'll likely try and create an ebuild to install UVPE. Be
> nice to get that officially into portage :-)
>
> (I want to get a WordPerfect 8 ebuild working, too :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Wol
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Brutzman, Bill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 10 May 2007 15:41
> To: 'u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org'
> Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
>
> Outstanding... I am 1000% in favor of this initiative.
>
> I have never been able to get PE to work on a PC... always running into
> install problems.
>
> Beefing up PE would be the best advertizing that IBM could hope for...
>
> --Bill
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Charles Barouch
> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 11:39 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
>
>
> All,
> The U2UG board has been discussing the 'incubator plan' and we will
> soon be presenting a draft proposal to membership. Here's what we are
> discussing in broad brushstrokes - all feedback appreciated.
>
> We want an *easy* *legal* way to get PE editions into the hands of
> business people, college students, entrepreneurs, and other market
> expanders. More than that, we need to get people a version of the PE
> software which is chock full of examples, training materials, and useful
>
> information.
>
> Here's what we have in mind: We want to build an installer which
> pulls the PE editions from the IBM website (allowing the user to sign
> the IBM agreement), pulls Learner Packs from the U2UG website (allowing
> the user to sign the U2UG agreement - designed to protect the content
> all of you will - hopefully - contribute). Finally, the installer will
> bootstrap the Learner Packs into the PE installation, so the accounts,
> files, and programs, etc. are all in place.
>  The end result will be a full install, with URLs to get them to the
>
> U2UG and other key locations. It will allow people to see our technology
>
> in the best light possible. Opinions? Flames? Offers to Help?
>
> Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
> P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
> ---
> u2-users mailing list
> u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
> ---
> u2-users mailing list
> u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[David Murray]

The basic 'Direct Connect' terminal emulator is bundled with the U2 windows
client package.

What would be nice is SBClient to be bundled, so the capabilities of SB+ can
be demonstrated.

Cheers,

David Murray


.learn and do
.excel and share
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:04 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

Is there a possibility of adding a Terminal emulator?  Accuterm for 
instance?

Bruce M Neylon
Health Care Management Group 




Charles Barouch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
05/09/2007 11:39 PM
Please respond to
u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org


To
u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
cc

Subject
[U2] Incubator - News from the board






All,
The U2UG board has been discussing the 'incubator plan' and we will 
soon be presenting a draft proposal to membership. Here's what we are 
discussing in broad brushstrokes - all feedback appreciated.

We want an *easy* *legal* way to get PE editions into the hands of 
business people, college students, entrepreneurs, and other market 
expanders. More than that, we need to get people a version of the PE 
software which is chock full of examples, training materials, and useful 
information.

Here's what we have in mind: We want to build an installer which 
pulls the PE editions from the IBM website (allowing the user to sign 
the IBM agreement), pulls Learner Packs from the U2UG website (allowing 
the user to sign the U2UG agreement - designed to protect the content 
all of you will - hopefully - contribute). Finally, the installer will 
bootstrap the Learner Packs into the PE installation, so the accounts, 
files, and programs, etc. are all in place.
 The end result will be a full install, with URLs to get them to the 
U2UG and other key locations. It will allow people to see our technology 
in the best light possible. Opinions? Flames? Offers to Help?

Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Martin Phillips]

Would be nice to get UV on FreeBSD


Can't resist the plug  OpenQM runs on FreeBSD.


Martin Phillips, Ladybridge Systems Ltd
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[robwills_u2list]

It strikes me that one good way to deliver this would be using VMware or 
some other similar virtualisation technology that can be run in a free 
player (VMware Player) on any Windows or Linux operating system.  This 
would make the install easy and all the databases and documentation etc. 
could be pre-installed.

Regards,

Rob Wills
(rob dot wills at inter hyphen weavers dot com)

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/05/2007 04:39:21:

> All,
> The U2UG board has been discussing the 'incubator plan' and we will 
> soon be presenting a draft proposal to membership. Here's what we are 
> discussing in broad brushstrokes - all feedback appreciated.
> 
> We want an *easy* *legal* way to get PE editions into the hands of 
> business people, college students, entrepreneurs, and other market 
> expanders. More than that, we need to get people a version of the PE 
> software which is chock full of examples, training materials, and useful 

> information.
> 
> Here's what we have in mind: We want to build an installer which 
> pulls the PE editions from the IBM website (allowing the user to sign 
> the IBM agreement), pulls Learner Packs from the U2UG website (allowing 
> the user to sign the U2UG agreement - designed to protect the content 
> all of you will - hopefully - contribute). Finally, the installer will 
> bootstrap the Learner Packs into the PE installation, so the accounts, 
> files, and programs, etc. are all in place.
>  The end result will be a full install, with URLs to get them to the 

> U2UG and other key locations. It will allow people to see our technology 

> in the best light possible. Opinions? Flames? Offers to Help?
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Normandin, Jerry]

As a gentoo user and contributor I can say make sure you are using a
current valid profile for your platform and make sure you properly
configured your /etc/make.conf.   

There are many advantages to running Gentoo.  1st off it's compiled and
optimized for your architecture, this means it's extremely fast!
Second...
IN PLACE OS upgrades are awesome and work well.  If your are a newbie
then I suggest first download a live cd or dvd for your architecture.
Hit the gentoo website read up on how to install, if you have any
questions someone is always willing to help through the gentoo forums.


Gentoo isn't meant to be an "easy" install.  For those of us who are
tech savy there are many benfits from utilizing this distribution. 

I currently use gentoo on:
AMD
PPC
AMD64bit
PPC 64bit
Efika Embedded Controller


I'd like to see an Open source version of UV.  IBM forgot that Linux
runs on myany platforms.  My Linux servers at home are all PPC.  If I
was going to play with uv at home I'd run it on one of my servers.  My
PPC servers have
Mysql 5.0 (evolving nicely!)

Jerry Normandin
 


 

|   System Level II 
Intuit Eclipse
Distribution Management Solutions

75 Perseverance Way
Hyannis, MA 02601
T 508.778.9151 Ext. 1245
F 508.778.6443
www.eclipse.intuit.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   


*This e-mail message is intended for the named recipient(s) above only,
and may contain information that is confidential and/or privileged. If
you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this e-mail and
any attachment(s) thereto is prohibited. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gabriel Green
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:56 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

Good luck with that.  All I have to say about Gentoo is be careful with
compiler flags going a little too crazy and ports (or whatever they call
them, I forget) getting out of sync.

Would be nice to get UV on FreeBSD but it seems to work beautifully on
Windows.. no complaints so far =)  Microsoft apparently put enough hard
work
into Windows to turn it from the toy that was NT4 into a robust OS
suitable
for enterprise use (didn't think I'd ever say that 8 years ago...)

Gabe

On 5/10/07, Anthony Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'm trying to get a working Gentoo at home. That's a game and a half
:-)
>
> When I succeed I'll likely try and create an ebuild to install UVPE.
Be
> nice to get that officially into portage :-)
>
> (I want to get a WordPerfect 8 ebuild working, too :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Wol
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Brutzman, Bill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 10 May 2007 15:41
> To: 'u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org'
> Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
>
> Outstanding... I am 1000% in favor of this initiative.
>
> I have never been able to get PE to work on a PC... always running
into
> install problems.
>
> Beefing up PE would be the best advertizing that IBM could hope for...
>
> --Bill
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Charles
Barouch
> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 11:39 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
>
>
> All,
> The U2UG board has been discussing the 'incubator plan' and we
will
> soon be presenting a draft proposal to membership. Here's what we are
> discussing in broad brushstrokes - all feedback appreciated.
>
> We want an *easy* *legal* way to get PE editions into the hands of
> business people, college students, entrepreneurs, and other market
> expanders. More than that, we need to get people a version of the PE
> software which is chock full of examples, training materials, and
useful
>
> information.
>
> Here's what we have in mind: We want to build an installer which
> pulls the PE editions from the IBM website (allowing the user to sign
> the IBM agreement), pulls Learner Packs from the U2UG website
(allowing
> the user to sign the U2UG agreement - designed to protect the content
> all of you will - hopefully - contribute). Finally, the installer will
> bootstrap the Learner Packs into the PE installation, so the accounts,
> files, and programs, etc. are all in place.
>  The end result will be a full install, with URLs to get them to
the
>
> U2UG and other key locations. It will allow people to see our
technology
>
> in the best light possible. Opinions? Flames? Offers to Help?
>
> Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
> P. O. Box 540957, Q

Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Dave Taylor]

Chuck,


As I have said before on this subject, "you never get a second chance to
make a good first impression".

I once spoke with a representative of another mv database who bragged that
they got over 2000 downloads of their eval. product per month.

When I asked him, "how many sales did you make", he had no clue.

If I download an eval copy of something and it doesn't work for me, do you
think I'm doing to say "Well, Self, this is really a good product, but
you're too stupid to figure out how to make it work"?

What we really *don't* need is 2000 downloads a month that result in 2000
disgruntled people who experimented with the product and concluded that *the
product* doesn't work!

NOTE TO IBM: this is the *last* place you want to refuse to provide product
technical support - *as you do today*.

This is our *first* chance to make a good first impression, and we're not
going to get another one.

>Stepping down off my soap box>

With this in mind, may I suggest that we consider some of the following
ideas:

1.Adding an invitation to contact the u2ug group for technical support
at any time during or after the installation.

2.Ensuring that there are step-by-step tutorials, borrowed from IBM or
contributed by our members, starting with the Readme document, that attempt
to make it impossible to fail to install, connect and run the product,
including (1) creating a simple application and (2) moving a simple
application to the eval database.

3.Providing a complete listing of authorized U2 Resellers, by name,
address, contact information and areas of specialization, so a person
evaluating a product knows where to go to get pricing and to purchase the
product.

4.Ensuring that the PE release does *not* have a short expiration date,
because individuals often like to keep a 2-user copy on their laptop to play
with, even though they have a much larger-user copy on their production
system.

Since many of the new evaluators will come from the generic Pick sector, and
because neither Universe or Unidata support generic Pick spooler commands,
we will offer to contribute a copy of SpoolerPlus to the u2ug library to be
distributed with these eval copies of the PE.  This will over come the most
difficult issue faced by most generic Pick people evaluating UV/UD.

Also, since UV and UD do not read generic Pick file saves and account saves,
we will also offer to contribute a copy of our File Caddy programs,
TAPE.DUMP and TAPE.LOAD, and our data cleaning programs to remove
unprintable ascii characters that will not load onto UV/UD, to enable them
to easily move an entire account from most generic Pick databases to UV or
UD.

I think that the u2ug needs to come up with a mutually acceptable policy for
licensing these products for use in the PE library.

We will also contribute to a growing documentation of issues faced in
converting to UV/UD as we become aware of them thru out conversion
activities.

I totally support this project and am glad to assist wherever we can.

Rgds,

Dave

Dave Taylor
CEO
Sysmark Information Systems, Inc.
49 Aspen Way
Rolling Hills Estates, CA 90274
800-SYSMARK (800-797-6275)
(O) 310-544-1974
(C) 310-561-5200
(F) 310-377-3550
www.sysmarkinfo.com
Your Source for Integrated EDI Translation, DataSync Integration and
Software Migration
Authorized IBM Business Partner
- Original Message - 
From: "Charles Barouch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 7:39 PM
Subject: [U2] Incubator - News from the board


> All,
> The U2UG board has been discussing the 'incubator plan' and we will
> soon be presenting a draft proposal to membership. Here's what we are
> discussing in broad brushstrokes - all feedback appreciated.
>
> We want an *easy* *legal* way to get PE editions into the hands of
> business people, college students, entrepreneurs, and other market
> expanders. More than that, we need to get people a version of the PE
> software which is chock full of examples, training materials, and useful
> information.
>
> Here's what we have in mind: We want to build an installer which
> pulls the PE editions from the IBM website (allowing the user to sign
> the IBM agreement), pulls Learner Packs from the U2UG website (allowing
> the user to sign the U2UG agreement - designed to protect the content
> all of you will - hopefully - contribute). Finally, the installer will
> bootstrap the Learner Packs into the PE installation, so the accounts,
> files, and programs, etc. are all in place.
>  The end result will be a full install, with URLs to get them to the
> U2UG and other key locations. It will allow people to see our technology
> in the best light possible. Opinions? Flames? Offers to Help?
>
> Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
>  

RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Kevin King]

>From: David Murray
>What would be nice is SBClient to be 
>bundled, so the capabilities of SB+ 
>can be demonstrated.

Not likely going to happen, but DC works fine with SB+ in character
mode.  Well, "fine" following a small patch to SB+.

-Kevin
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.PrecisOnline.com
 
** Check out our FREE support forum at
http://www.PrecisOnline.com/forum/.
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[karlp]

Might I also suggest that all the extras, like the recommended list of
VARs (very good idea), etc. be placed on u2ug.org's website so they are
located in one location, and can be updated once? There's nothing less
maintainable than a software release with all the packages included, but
which is out of date 20 minutes after download...

Karl


> Chuck,
>
> 
> As I have said before on this subject, "you never get a second chance to
> make a good first impression".
>
> I once spoke with a representative of another mv database who bragged that
> they got over 2000 downloads of their eval. product per month.
>
> When I asked him, "how many sales did you make", he had no clue.
>
> If I download an eval copy of something and it doesn't work for me, do you
> think I'm doing to say "Well, Self, this is really a good product, but
> you're too stupid to figure out how to make it work"?
>
> What we really *don't* need is 2000 downloads a month that result in 2000
> disgruntled people who experimented with the product and concluded that
> *the
> product* doesn't work!
>
> NOTE TO IBM: this is the *last* place you want to refuse to provide
> product
> technical support - *as you do today*.
>
> This is our *first* chance to make a good first impression, and we're not
> going to get another one.
>
>>Stepping down off my soap box>
>
> With this in mind, may I suggest that we consider some of the following
> ideas:
>
> 1.Adding an invitation to contact the u2ug group for technical support
> at any time during or after the installation.
>
> 2.Ensuring that there are step-by-step tutorials, borrowed from IBM or
> contributed by our members, starting with the Readme document, that
> attempt
> to make it impossible to fail to install, connect and run the product,
> including (1) creating a simple application and (2) moving a simple
> application to the eval database.
>
> 3.Providing a complete listing of authorized U2 Resellers, by name,
> address, contact information and areas of specialization, so a person
> evaluating a product knows where to go to get pricing and to purchase the
> product.
>
> 4.Ensuring that the PE release does *not* have a short expiration
> date,
> because individuals often like to keep a 2-user copy on their laptop to
> play
> with, even though they have a much larger-user copy on their production
> system.
>
> Since many of the new evaluators will come from the generic Pick sector,
> and
> because neither Universe or Unidata support generic Pick spooler commands,
> we will offer to contribute a copy of SpoolerPlus to the u2ug library to
> be
> distributed with these eval copies of the PE.  This will over come the
> most
> difficult issue faced by most generic Pick people evaluating UV/UD.
>
> Also, since UV and UD do not read generic Pick file saves and account
> saves,
> we will also offer to contribute a copy of our File Caddy programs,
> TAPE.DUMP and TAPE.LOAD, and our data cleaning programs to remove
> unprintable ascii characters that will not load onto UV/UD, to enable them
> to easily move an entire account from most generic Pick databases to UV or
> UD.
>
> I think that the u2ug needs to come up with a mutually acceptable policy
> for
> licensing these products for use in the PE library.
>
> We will also contribute to a growing documentation of issues faced in
> converting to UV/UD as we become aware of them thru out conversion
> activities.
>
> I totally support this project and am glad to assist wherever we can.
>
> Rgds,
>
> Dave
>
> Dave Taylor
> CEO
> Sysmark Information Systems, Inc.
> 49 Aspen Way
> Rolling Hills Estates, CA 90274
> 800-SYSMARK (800-797-6275)
> (O) 310-544-1974
> (C) 310-561-5200
> (F) 310-377-3550
> www.sysmarkinfo.com
> Your Source for Integrated EDI Translation, DataSync Integration and
> Software Migration
> Authorized IBM Business Partner
> - Original Message -
> From: "Charles Barouch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 7:39 PM
> Subject: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
>
>
>> All,
>> The U2UG board has been discussing the 'incubator plan' and we will
>> soon be presenting a draft proposal to membership. Here's what we are
>> discussing in broad brushstrokes - all feedback appreciated.
>>
>> We want an *easy* *legal* way to get PE editions into the hands of
>> business people, college students, entrepreneurs, and other market
>> expanders. More than that, we need to get people a version of the PE
>> software which is chock f

Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Thomas Derwin]

Very well said, Dave. And thanks for your generous offers.

The "incubator" is a great idea and hopefully IBM will be as lenient
with the PE licensing and expiration terms as they are with their free
"DB2 Express-C" database.

The installer is going to be an amazing piece of code, considering all
that's being asked of it.

Have fun,
Tom

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/10/07 3:00 PM >>>
Chuck,


As I have said before on this subject, "you never get a second chance to
make a good first impression".

>Stepping down off my soap box>

we will offer to contribute a copy of SpoolerPlus to the u2ug library
to be
distributed with these eval copies of the PE.  This will over come the
most
difficult issue faced by most generic Pick people evaluating UV/UD.

we will offer to contribute a copy of our File Caddy programs,
TAPE.DUMP and TAPE.LOAD, and our data cleaning programs to remove
unprintable ascii characters that will not load onto UV/UD, to enable
them
to easily move an entire account from most generic Pick databases to UV
or
UD.

We will also contribute to a growing documentation of issues faced in
converting to UV/UD as we become aware of them thru out conversion
activities.

Rgds,
Dave Taylor

- Original Message - 
From: "Charles Barouch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 7:39 PM
Subject: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

> All,
> The U2UG board has been discussing the 'incubator plan' and we
will
> soon be presenting a draft proposal to membership.

- This e-mail and any attachments may 
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Marc Harbeson]

Well, for distribution - this would need to be Linux - as I doubt
Microsoft will grant re-dist rights on Win32.

IBM seems to support Linux...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 1:13 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

It strikes me that one good way to deliver this would be using VMware or

some other similar virtualisation technology that can be run in a free 
player (VMware Player) on any Windows or Linux operating system.  This 
would make the install easy and all the databases and documentation etc.

could be pre-installed.
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Jerry]

Dave,
Very well said. But one thing I might add, and I've been bitten by this 
myself, I think that the reduced file sizes are probably a good enough of a 
deterrent to users trying to use the PE version for regular use and you 
don't need the expiration date. I have downloaded PE versions, installed, 
but didn't have time to use right off, then finding when I did have time it 
had expired. Some may think that not many people would be like that but in 
my world a month is a day.

Jerry

- Original Message - 
From: "Dave Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board



Chuck,


As I have said before on this subject, "you never get a second chance to
make a good first impression".

I once spoke with a representative of another mv database who bragged that
they got over 2000 downloads of their eval. product per month.

When I asked him, "how many sales did you make", he had no clue.

If I download an eval copy of something and it doesn't work for me, do you
think I'm doing to say "Well, Self, this is really a good product, but
you're too stupid to figure out how to make it work"?

What we really *don't* need is 2000 downloads a month that result in 2000
disgruntled people who experimented with the product and concluded that 
*the

product* doesn't work!

NOTE TO IBM: this is the *last* place you want to refuse to provide 
product

technical support - *as you do today*.

This is our *first* chance to make a good first impression, and we're not
going to get another one.


Stepping down off my soap box>


With this in mind, may I suggest that we consider some of the following
ideas:

1.Adding an invitation to contact the u2ug group for technical support
at any time during or after the installation.

2.Ensuring that there are step-by-step tutorials, borrowed from IBM or
contributed by our members, starting with the Readme document, that 
attempt

to make it impossible to fail to install, connect and run the product,
including (1) creating a simple application and (2) moving a simple
application to the eval database.

3.Providing a complete listing of authorized U2 Resellers, by name,
address, contact information and areas of specialization, so a person
evaluating a product knows where to go to get pricing and to purchase the
product.

4.Ensuring that the PE release does *not* have a short expiration 
date,
because individuals often like to keep a 2-user copy on their laptop to 
play

with, even though they have a much larger-user copy on their production
system.

Since many of the new evaluators will come from the generic Pick sector, 
and

because neither Universe or Unidata support generic Pick spooler commands,
we will offer to contribute a copy of SpoolerPlus to the u2ug library to 
be
distributed with these eval copies of the PE.  This will over come the 
most

difficult issue faced by most generic Pick people evaluating UV/UD.

Also, since UV and UD do not read generic Pick file saves and account 
saves,

we will also offer to contribute a copy of our File Caddy programs,
TAPE.DUMP and TAPE.LOAD, and our data cleaning programs to remove
unprintable ascii characters that will not load onto UV/UD, to enable them
to easily move an entire account from most generic Pick databases to UV or
UD.

I think that the u2ug needs to come up with a mutually acceptable policy 
for

licensing these products for use in the PE library.

We will also contribute to a growing documentation of issues faced in
converting to UV/UD as we become aware of them thru out conversion
activities.

I totally support this project and am glad to assist wherever we can.

Rgds,

Dave

Dave Taylor
CEO
Sysmark Information Systems, Inc.
49 Aspen Way
Rolling Hills Estates, CA 90274
800-SYSMARK (800-797-6275)
(O) 310-544-1974
(C) 310-561-5200
(F) 310-377-3550
www.sysmarkinfo.com
Your Source for Integrated EDI Translation, DataSync Integration and
Software Migration
Authorized IBM Business Partner

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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[BNeylon]

Reminds me of the good old days when I was the programmer at TAB books in 
Blue Ridge Summit, PA.   We published "The PICK Library edited by Jonathan 
Sisk".  Still have some of those books somewhere.

Bruce M Neylon
Health Care Management Group 




"Gabriel Green" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
05/10/2007 11:30 AM
Please respond to
u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org


To
u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
cc

Subject
Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board






Can I ask a silly question--why are there no MV books in bookstores in
print?

Anyone want to write one? ;-)

Is the MV market expanding, shrinking, or staying stagnant?  Does IBM plan
to really start promoting U2 or is it just something they acquired to get 
a
few large customers?  Anybody?
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[David Murray]

What about a fully installed, configured and ready to run VMWare image of U2
on linux?

VWmare now have a free runtime/player and there are already a number of
linux and such images available under their 'Virtual Appliances Marketplace'
- http://www.vmware.com/vmtn/appliances/

All that has to be installed then is the vmware player on a MS-Windows
platform.

Cheers,

David Murray



.learn and do
.excel and share

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marc Harbeson
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 3:12 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

Well, for distribution - this would need to be Linux - as I doubt
Microsoft will grant re-dist rights on Win32.

IBM seems to support Linux...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 1:13 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

It strikes me that one good way to deliver this would be using VMware or

some other similar virtualisation technology that can be run in a free 
player (VMware Player) on any Windows or Linux operating system.  This 
would make the install easy and all the databases and documentation etc.

could be pre-installed.
---
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Normandin, Jerry]

Sounds like a great Idea!  I'm willing to put together a tuned cookie
cutter vmplayer image.  This will yield a usable demo that can run on
windows and linux.  ... as the guiness commercial goes... "A VM of U2 on
Linux, BRILLIANT!"

Jerry Normandin
 


 

|   System Level II 
Intuit Eclipse
Distribution Management Solutions

75 Perseverance Way
Hyannis, MA 02601
T 508.778.9151 Ext. 1245
F 508.778.6443
www.eclipse.intuit.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   


*This e-mail message is intended for the named recipient(s) above only,
and may contain information that is confidential and/or privileged. If
you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this e-mail and
any attachment(s) thereto is prohibited. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Murray
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 4:22 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

What about a fully installed, configured and ready to run VMWare image
of U2
on linux?

VWmare now have a free runtime/player and there are already a number of
linux and such images available under their 'Virtual Appliances
Marketplace'
- http://www.vmware.com/vmtn/appliances/

All that has to be installed then is the vmware player on a MS-Windows
platform.

Cheers,

David Murray



.learn and do
.excel and share

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marc Harbeson
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 3:12 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

Well, for distribution - this would need to be Linux - as I doubt
Microsoft will grant re-dist rights on Win32.

IBM seems to support Linux...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 1:13 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

It strikes me that one good way to deliver this would be using VMware or

some other similar virtualisation technology that can be run in a free 
player (VMware Player) on any Windows or Linux operating system.  This 
would make the install easy and all the databases and documentation etc.

could be pre-installed.
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Dave]

Anthony Youngman wrote:

I'm trying to get a working Gentoo at home. That's a game and a half :-)

When I succeed I'll likely try and create an ebuild to install UVPE. Be
nice to get that officially into portage :-)

(I want to get a WordPerfect 8 ebuild working, too :-)

Cheers,
Wol
  
I recently (within the past month) wiped my gentoo desktop box so I 
could try (K)ubuntu. (K)ubuntu seems to be a decent enough distribution, 
but for the life of me I still don't understand its popularity. Their 
policy on root accounts alone was enough to put me off. The primary 
reason I prefer Linux to any MS solution is that Linux, for the most 
part, doesn't make judgement calls about what I want to do with MY 
computer. (K)ubuntu threw that right out the window with their sudo 
nonsense.


It was a bad decision. I had my reasons for replacing gentoo, among them 
the lack of a recent install CD. However I just checked www.gentoo.org, 
and imagine my surprise... there's a 2007.0 install finally available. I 
guess I'll spend the weekend reinstalling. Yes, you read that correctly: 
the weekend.


I've been a Linux user since 1994 (I still have an ancient Yggdrasil 
distribution, boot floppy and all).  I've tried most of the major 
players, and landed on gentoo about three years ago. What sold me was 
the amount of control you have with gentoo. Want to try a bleeding edge 
app? Preface 'emerge' with 'ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~x86"' (replace ~x86 with 
your platform of choice).  'USE' keywords offer very fine granularity 
over what libraries get used when you install a package.


And the gentoo wiki offers some of the best documentation I've seen for 
ANY computer platform.


My email archives fail me right now, and my middle-aged memory has been 
all but useless for quite some time now (I blame the '70's, but there ya 
go). Someone in the openqm community had an ebuild going for gentoo.


In short (is it too late for that?), good luck with building your gentoo 
system. If ya got any questions (WordPerfect 8??) feel free to holler at me.


--
Dave Walker
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[David Wolverton]

But you can't do that due to the IBM License on the PE version - the end
user *must* navigate through that license during the installation was my
understanding.  They HAVE to pull the PE from the IBM site directly.

Meaning, no way to build ready-to-run PE Virtual Machines

DW 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> Normandin, Jerry
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 3:43 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
> 
> Sounds like a great Idea!  I'm willing to put together a 
> tuned cookie cutter vmplayer image.  This will yield a usable 
> demo that can run on windows and linux.  ... as the guiness 
> commercial goes... "A VM of U2 on Linux, BRILLIANT!"
> 
> Jerry Normandin
>  
> 
> 
>  
> 
> | System Level II
> Intuit Eclipse
> Distribution Management Solutions
> 
> 75 Perseverance Way
> Hyannis, MA 02601
> T 508.778.9151 Ext. 1245
> F 508.778.6443
> www.eclipse.intuit.com
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> 
> *This e-mail message is intended for the named recipient(s) 
> above only, and may contain information that is confidential 
> and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you 
> are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, 
> distribution or duplication of this e-mail and any 
> attachment(s) thereto is prohibited. 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Murray
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 4:22 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
> 
> What about a fully installed, configured and ready to run 
> VMWare image of U2 on linux?
> 
> VWmare now have a free runtime/player and there are already a 
> number of linux and such images available under their 
> 'Virtual Appliances Marketplace'
> - http://www.vmware.com/vmtn/appliances/
> 
> All that has to be installed then is the vmware player on a 
> MS-Windows platform.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> David Murray
> 
> 
> 
> .learn and do
> .excel and share
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marc Harbeson
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 3:12 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
> 
> Well, for distribution - this would need to be Linux - as I 
> doubt Microsoft will grant re-dist rights on Win32.
> 
> IBM seems to support Linux...
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 1:13 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
> 
> It strikes me that one good way to deliver this would be 
> using VMware or
> 
> some other similar virtualisation technology that can be run 
> in a free player (VMware Player) on any Windows or Linux 
> operating system.  This would make the install easy and all 
> the databases and documentation etc.
> 
> could be pre-installed.
> ---
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> u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Charles Barouch]

All,
  Let me respond to some of these... but first:

MOST IMPORTANT! We need content for the learner packs! Please contact 
U2UG President Brian Leach with specific offers to help. We need code 
examples, well reasoned tutorials, and more. These packs are a big part 
of making the incubator work.


Gabriel,
  I am currently writing an MV book and editing another. The first will 
be distributed free as a PDF and the second will be a college text book. 
We already have one College committed to using it bt I can't say more at 
this time.


Rob, Dave & Jerry,
   VMware was my original proposal and IBM legal found that 
problematic.It may be possible in the future but we won't hold this up 
waiting for it.


Karl,
  The hot links included in the incubator will point to a lot of U2UG 
content so that we can keep things dynamic and current.


--

   Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
   P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[karlp]

Thanks. I've seen broken links so many times using install routines that I
could be rich, if finder's fees were applicable. Well, not rich.

Karl


> All,
>Let me respond to some of these... but first:
>
> MOST IMPORTANT! We need content for the learner packs! Please contact
> U2UG President Brian Leach with specific offers to help. We need code
> examples, well reasoned tutorials, and more. These packs are a big part
> of making the incubator work.
>
> Gabriel,
>I am currently writing an MV book and editing another. The first will
> be distributed free as a PDF and the second will be a college text book.
> We already have one College committed to using it bt I can't say more at
> this time.
>
> Rob, Dave & Jerry,
> VMware was my original proposal and IBM legal found that
> problematic.It may be possible in the future but we won't hold this up
> waiting for it.
>
> Karl,
>The hot links included in the incubator will point to a lot of U2UG
> content so that we can keep things dynamic and current.
>
> --
>
> Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
> P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
> ---
> u2-users mailing list
> u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
>


-- 
Karl Pearson
Director of I.T.
ATS Industrial Supply, Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.atsindustrial.com
800-789-9300 x29
Local: 801-978-4429
Fax: 801-972-3888

"To mess up your Linux PC, you have to really work at it;
 to mess up a microsoft PC you just have to work on it."
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[David Murray]

I was assuming that IBM would do this.

Cheers,

David Murray


.learn and do
.excel and share
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Wolverton
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:49 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

But you can't do that due to the IBM License on the PE version - the end
user *must* navigate through that license during the installation was my
understanding.  They HAVE to pull the PE from the IBM site directly.

Meaning, no way to build ready-to-run PE Virtual Machines

DW 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> Normandin, Jerry
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 3:43 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
> 
> Sounds like a great Idea!  I'm willing to put together a 
> tuned cookie cutter vmplayer image.  This will yield a usable 
> demo that can run on windows and linux.  ... as the guiness 
> commercial goes... "A VM of U2 on Linux, BRILLIANT!"
> 
> Jerry Normandin
>  
> 
> 
>  
> 
> | System Level II
> Intuit Eclipse
> Distribution Management Solutions
> 
> 75 Perseverance Way
> Hyannis, MA 02601
> T 508.778.9151 Ext. 1245
> F 508.778.6443
> www.eclipse.intuit.com
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> 
> *This e-mail message is intended for the named recipient(s) 
> above only, and may contain information that is confidential 
> and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you 
> are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, 
> distribution or duplication of this e-mail and any 
> attachment(s) thereto is prohibited. 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Murray
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 4:22 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
> 
> What about a fully installed, configured and ready to run 
> VMWare image of U2 on linux?
> 
> VWmare now have a free runtime/player and there are already a 
> number of linux and such images available under their 
> 'Virtual Appliances Marketplace'
> - http://www.vmware.com/vmtn/appliances/
> 
> All that has to be installed then is the vmware player on a 
> MS-Windows platform.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> David Murray
> 
> 
> 
> .learn and do
> .excel and share
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marc Harbeson
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 3:12 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
> 
> Well, for distribution - this would need to be Linux - as I 
> doubt Microsoft will grant re-dist rights on Win32.
> 
> IBM seems to support Linux...
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 1:13 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
> 
> It strikes me that one good way to deliver this would be 
> using VMware or
> 
> some other similar virtualisation technology that can be run 
> in a free player (VMware Player) on any Windows or Linux 
> operating system.  This would make the install easy and all 
> the databases and documentation etc.
> 
> could be pre-installed.
> ---
> u2-users mailing list
> u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
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> To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Marc Harbeson]

Why can't the unpacking of the VM have the IBM license agreement in it?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Wolverton
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:49 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

But you can't do that due to the IBM License on the PE version - the end
user *must* navigate through that license during the installation was my
understanding.  They HAVE to pull the PE from the IBM site directly.

Meaning, no way to build ready-to-run PE Virtual Machines

DW 
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Richard Brown]

Yep,  I live on that same clock.

Richard

- Original Message - 
From: "Jerry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board


> Dave,
> Very well said. But one thing I might add, and I've been bitten by this
> myself, I think that the reduced file sizes are probably a good enough of
a
> deterrent to users trying to use the PE version for regular use and you
> don't need the expiration date. I have downloaded PE versions, installed,
> but didn't have time to use right off, then finding when I did have time
it
> had expired. Some may think that not many people would be like that but in
> my world a month is a day.
> Jerry
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Dave Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
>
>
> > Chuck,
> >
> > 
> > As I have said before on this subject, "you never get a second chance to
> > make a good first impression".
> >
> > I once spoke with a representative of another mv database who bragged
that
> > they got over 2000 downloads of their eval. product per month.
> >
> > When I asked him, "how many sales did you make", he had no clue.
> >
> > If I download an eval copy of something and it doesn't work for me, do
you
> > think I'm doing to say "Well, Self, this is really a good product, but
> > you're too stupid to figure out how to make it work"?
> >
> > What we really *don't* need is 2000 downloads a month that result in
2000
> > disgruntled people who experimented with the product and concluded that
> > *the
> > product* doesn't work!
> >
> > NOTE TO IBM: this is the *last* place you want to refuse to provide
> > product
> > technical support - *as you do today*.
> >
> > This is our *first* chance to make a good first impression, and we're
not
> > going to get another one.
> >
> >>Stepping down off my soap box>
> >
> > With this in mind, may I suggest that we consider some of the following
> > ideas:
> >
> > 1.Adding an invitation to contact the u2ug group for technical
support
> > at any time during or after the installation.
> >
> > 2.Ensuring that there are step-by-step tutorials, borrowed from IBM
or
> > contributed by our members, starting with the Readme document, that
> > attempt
> > to make it impossible to fail to install, connect and run the product,
> > including (1) creating a simple application and (2) moving a simple
> > application to the eval database.
> >
> > 3.Providing a complete listing of authorized U2 Resellers, by name,
> > address, contact information and areas of specialization, so a person
> > evaluating a product knows where to go to get pricing and to purchase
the
> > product.
> >
> > 4.Ensuring that the PE release does *not* have a short expiration
> > date,
> > because individuals often like to keep a 2-user copy on their laptop to
> > play
> > with, even though they have a much larger-user copy on their production
> > system.
> >
> > Since many of the new evaluators will come from the generic Pick sector,
> > and
> > because neither Universe or Unidata support generic Pick spooler
commands,
> > we will offer to contribute a copy of SpoolerPlus to the u2ug library to
> > be
> > distributed with these eval copies of the PE.  This will over come the
> > most
> > difficult issue faced by most generic Pick people evaluating UV/UD.
> >
> > Also, since UV and UD do not read generic Pick file saves and account
> > saves,
> > we will also offer to contribute a copy of our File Caddy programs,
> > TAPE.DUMP and TAPE.LOAD, and our data cleaning programs to remove
> > unprintable ascii characters that will not load onto UV/UD, to enable
them
> > to easily move an entire account from most generic Pick databases to UV
or
> > UD.
> >
> > I think that the u2ug needs to come up with a mutually acceptable policy
> > for
> > licensing these products for use in the PE library.
> >
> > We will also contribute to a growing documentation of issues faced in
> > converting to UV/UD as we become aware of them thru out conversion
> > activities.
> >
> > I totally support this project and am glad to assist wherever we can.
> >
> > Rgds,
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > Dave Taylor
> > CEO
> > Sysmark Information Syst

RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Tom Dodds]

Charles (looking for some help) Barouch:

I have some fairly self contained routines for both Sockets interface and
for file Triggers that I would be willing to customize for use with what
ever file structure the U2UG learner pack has designed.  I think these are
two of the really great features of U2.

Tom Dodds 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Barouch
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 4:25 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

All,
   Let me respond to some of these... but first:

MOST IMPORTANT! We need content for the learner packs! Please contact 
U2UG President Brian Leach with specific offers to help. We need code 
examples, well reasoned tutorials, and more. These packs are a big part 
of making the incubator work.

Gabriel,
   I am currently writing an MV book and editing another. The first will 
be distributed free as a PDF and the second will be a college text book. 
We already have one College committed to using it bt I can't say more at 
this time.

Rob, Dave & Jerry,
VMware was my original proposal and IBM legal found that 
problematic.It may be possible in the future but we won't hold this up 
waiting for it.

Karl,
   The hot links included in the incubator will point to a lot of U2UG 
content so that we can keep things dynamic and current.

-- 

Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Dawn Wolthuis]

pooler commands,
we will offer to contribute a copy of SpoolerPlus to the u2ug library to be
distributed with these eval copies of the PE.  This will over come the most
difficult issue faced by most generic Pick people evaluating UV/UD.

Also, since UV and UD do not read generic Pick file saves and account saves,
we will also offer to contribute a copy of our File Caddy programs,
TAPE.DUMP and TAPE.LOAD, and our data cleaning programs to remove
unprintable ascii characters that will not load onto UV/UD, to enable them
to easily move an entire account from most generic Pick databases to UV or
UD.

I think that the u2ug needs to come up with a mutually acceptable policy for
licensing these products for use in the PE library.

We will also contribute to a growing documentation of issues faced in
converting to UV/UD as we become aware of them thru out conversion
activities.

I totally support this project and am glad to assist wherever we can.

Rgds,

Dave

Dave Taylor
CEO
Sysmark Information Systems, Inc.
49 Aspen Way
Rolling Hills Estates, CA 90274
800-SYSMARK (800-797-6275)
(O) 310-544-1974
(C) 310-561-5200
(F) 310-377-3550
www.sysmarkinfo.com
Your Source for Integrated EDI Translation, DataSync Integration and
Software Migration
Authorized IBM Business Partner
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Barouch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 7:39 PM
Subject: [U2] Incubator - News from the board


> All,
> The U2UG board has been discussing the 'incubator plan' and we will
> soon be presenting a draft proposal to membership. Here's what we are
> discussing in broad brushstrokes - all feedback appreciated.
>
> We want an *easy* *legal* way to get PE editions into the hands of
> business people, college students, entrepreneurs, and other market
> expanders. More than that, we need to get people a version of the PE
> software which is chock full of examples, training materials, and useful
> information.
>
> Here's what we have in mind: We want to build an installer which
> pulls the PE editions from the IBM website (allowing the user to sign
> the IBM agreement), pulls Learner Packs from the U2UG website (allowing
> the user to sign the U2UG agreement - designed to protect the content
> all of you will - hopefully - contribute). Finally, the installer will
> bootstrap the Learner Packs into the PE installation, so the accounts,
> files, and programs, etc. are all in place.
>  The end result will be a full install, with URLs to get them to the
> U2UG and other key locations. It will allow people to see our technology
> in the best light possible. Opinions? Flames? Offers to Help?
>
> Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
> P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
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--
Dawn M. Wolthuis
Tincat Group, Inc.  tincat-group.com

Take and give some delight today
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Dawn Wolthuis]

On 5/10/07, Charles Barouch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

All,
  Let me respond to some of these... but first:

MOST IMPORTANT! We need content for the learner packs! Please contact
U2UG President Brian Leach with specific offers to help. We need code
examples, well reasoned tutorials, and more. These packs are a big part
of making the incubator work.

Gabriel,
  I am currently writing an MV book and editing another. The first will
be distributed free as a PDF and the second will be a college text book.
We already have one College committed to using it bt I can't say more at
this time.


Very cool, Chuck. If you need a reader, you know where I live... (and
if it happens to be one that someone else started, then I've already
read some if it)

cheers!  --dawn
--
Dawn M. Wolthuis
Tincat Group, Inc.
tincat-group.com

Take and give some delight today



Rob, Dave & Jerry,
   VMware was my original proposal and IBM legal found that
problematic.It may be possible in the future but we won't hold this up
waiting for it.

Karl,
  The hot links included in the incubator will point to a lot of U2UG
content so that we can keep things dynamic and current.

--

   Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
   P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[brian]

Just so everyone is clear -

Yes having a VM would be excellent (I use VPC all the time).
That's where the whole discussion of the incubator began, and we've been round 
that loop for several months and it's a no-go.

IBM (corporate, not U2 division) have too many legal hurdles to make it 
possible. We would have to be given the legal right to distribute U2: for that 
we would have to incorporate, charge membership (!), have legal counsel, submit 
taxes, and board members would take on a level of liability that's simply not 
appropriate to what is, after all, a volunteer organization.. and if we went 
down that road, it would suck up all our limited resources as a user group for 
the next n years just to get through it. 

And personally I'd rather concentrate on delivering something useful to the 
group - and the Learner packs need not only be for newcomers - than spend my 
year working through IBM legals!

Regards

Brian




But you can't do that due to the IBM License on the PE version - the end
user *must* navigate through that license during the installation was my
understanding.  They HAVE to pull the PE from the IBM site directly.

Meaning, no way to build ready-to-run PE Virtual Machines

DW 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> Normandin, Jerry
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 3:43 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
> 
> Sounds like a great Idea!  I'm willing to put together a 
> tuned cookie cutter vmplayer image.  This will yield a usable 
> demo that can run on windows and linux.  ... as the guiness 
> commercial goes... "A VM of U2 on Linux, BRILLIANT!"
> 
> Jerry Normandin
>  
> 
> 
>  
> 
> | System Level II
> Intuit Eclipse
> Distribution Management Solutions
> 
> 75 Perseverance Way
> Hyannis, MA 02601
> T 508.778.9151 Ext. 1245
> F 508.778.6443
> www.eclipse.intuit.com
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> 
> *This e-mail message is intended for the named recipient(s) 
> above only, and may contain information that is confidential 
> and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you 
> are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, 
> distribution or duplication of this e-mail and any 
> attachment(s) thereto is prohibited. 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Murray
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 4:22 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
> 
> What about a fully installed, configured and ready to run 
> VMWare image of U2 on linux?
> 
> VWmare now have a free runtime/player and there are already a 
> number of linux and such images available under their 
> 'Virtual Appliances Marketplace'
> - http://www.vmware.com/vmtn/appliances/
> 
> All that has to be installed then is the vmware player on a 
> MS-Windows platform.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> David Murray
> 
> 
> 
> .learn and do
> .excel and share
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marc Harbeson
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 3:12 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
> 
> Well, for distribution - this would need to be Linux - as I 
> doubt Microsoft will grant re-dist rights on Win32.
> 
> IBM seems to support Linux...
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 1:13 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
> 
> It strikes me that one good way to deliver this would be 
> using VMware or
> 
> some other similar virtualisation technology that can be run 
> in a free player (VMware Player) on any Windows or Linux 
> operating system.  This would make the install easy and all 
> the databases and documentation etc.
> 
> could be pre-installed.
> ---
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Kurt Neumann]

Hi Dawn

Just a brief response to your posting.

Being based in South Africa, where we sometimes seem to feel like the
lost children of the U2 community, we tend to get the opposite feeling
to what you are putting across.

We recently had Susie Siegesmund out here in South Africa and part of
the reason for her visit was to help promote the growth of the local U2
market. She has in the past been very instrumental in assisting us in
this and still shows a huge commitment to doing so. This has
particularly been in the small user end of the market.

I do feel that where the problem may come in is in the lack of knowledge
by the rest of IBM about the U2 products and that they therefore tend to
push people towards something they know.

I feel the Incubator Program is a very good idea, and although IBM may
have legal issues to work around, I do not see them being
insurmountable, but rather, based on my previous experience with the IBM
U2 team, would expect them to assist as much as possible.

Thanks
Kurt Neumann 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dawn Wolthuis
Sent: 11 May 2007 08:28 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

On 5/10/07, Dave Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Chuck,
>
> 

I suspect I'll end up on mine before this post is done, so I might as
well say so up front too.
I have no reason to believe that IBM is eager to attract end-customers
(non-VARs) to U2 and almost as little reason to believe that they want
to put any effort into attracting new VARs.  Even those converting
from other Pick vendors (D3, jBASE, Revelation, OpenQM, UniVision)
might be of only ho-hum interest unless they are huge (and I think IBM
knows whether they have most of the huge ones already or not).

So, if the U2UG is trying to address any of those audiences, I am not
at all convinced that the support needed to "close the deal" with
anyone downloading the PE edition, however souped up it might be, will
be there.
>
>
There are no magazines I read that have Ads for IBM products,
including DB2, that give me any hint that IBM would like me to use U2
for any new projects (others might be seeing such advertising, but it
isn't in front of me). I made the decision not to beg IBM to market to
me.
>
>
So, if the U2UG is going to do something very cool like what has been
suggested for this Incubator, you might also want to know who it is
that IBM is passionate about bringing into the U2 fold. I suspect,
unless I see evidence to the contrary, that their target group, the
group for which they will spend money, are the prospective customers
of existing VARs, with their investments being in existing VARs,
period (or very close to "period"). Those are not, in general, folks
who need the PE edition as a sales tool--their VAR will get it all
working for them.
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Normandin, Jerry]

We can have an archive of the PE version within the virtual machine.
When the virtual machine boots for the firstime  the user will be guided
through the PE installation and force the user to navigate through the
license and install PE from the archive.

Jerry Normandin
 


 

|   System Level II 
Intuit Eclipse
Distribution Management Solutions

75 Perseverance Way
Hyannis, MA 02601
T 508.778.9151 Ext. 1245
F 508.778.6443
www.eclipse.intuit.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   


*This e-mail message is intended for the named recipient(s) above only,
and may contain information that is confidential and/or privileged. If
you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this e-mail and
any attachment(s) thereto is prohibited. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Murray
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 7:57 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

I was assuming that IBM would do this.

Cheers,

David Murray


.learn and do
.excel and share
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Wolverton
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:49 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

But you can't do that due to the IBM License on the PE version - the end
user *must* navigate through that license during the installation was my
understanding.  They HAVE to pull the PE from the IBM site directly.

Meaning, no way to build ready-to-run PE Virtual Machines

DW 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> Normandin, Jerry
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 3:43 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
> 
> Sounds like a great Idea!  I'm willing to put together a 
> tuned cookie cutter vmplayer image.  This will yield a usable 
> demo that can run on windows and linux.  ... as the guiness 
> commercial goes... "A VM of U2 on Linux, BRILLIANT!"
> 
> Jerry Normandin
>  
> 
> 
>  
> 
> | System Level II
> Intuit Eclipse
> Distribution Management Solutions
> 
> 75 Perseverance Way
> Hyannis, MA 02601
> T 508.778.9151 Ext. 1245
> F 508.778.6443
> www.eclipse.intuit.com
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> 
> 
> *This e-mail message is intended for the named recipient(s) 
> above only, and may contain information that is confidential 
> and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you 
> are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, 
> distribution or duplication of this e-mail and any 
> attachment(s) thereto is prohibited. 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Murray
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 4:22 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
> 
> What about a fully installed, configured and ready to run 
> VMWare image of U2 on linux?
> 
> VWmare now have a free runtime/player and there are already a 
> number of linux and such images available under their 
> 'Virtual Appliances Marketplace'
> - http://www.vmware.com/vmtn/appliances/
> 
> All that has to be installed then is the vmware player on a 
> MS-Windows platform.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> David Murray
> 
> 
> 
> .learn and do
> .excel and share
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marc Harbeson
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 3:12 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
> 
> Well, for distribution - this would need to be Linux - as I 
> doubt Microsoft will grant re-dist rights on Win32.
> 
> IBM seems to support Linux...
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 1:13 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
> 
> It strikes me that one good way to deliver this would be 
> using VMware or
> 
> some other similar virtualisation technology that can be run 
> in a free player (VMware Player) on any Windows or Linux 
> operating system.  This would make the install easy and all 
> the databases and documentation etc.
> 
> could be pre-installed.
> ---
> u2-users mailing list
> u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
> ---
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> u2-users@listserver.u

RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Normandin, Jerry]

Hey Dave! you started on Linux when I did!  In 1994 Yggdrasil was one of
the only distributions on CDROM.  Yggdrasil was what got me started with
Linux.
When Gentoo came along I was hooked.  You compile everything optimized
for your architecture!   

Jerry Normandin
 


 

|   System Level II 
Intuit Eclipse
Distribution Management Solutions

75 Perseverance Way
Hyannis, MA 02601
T 508.778.9151 Ext. 1245
F 508.778.6443
www.eclipse.intuit.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   


*This e-mail message is intended for the named recipient(s) above only,
and may contain information that is confidential and/or privileged. If
you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this e-mail and
any attachment(s) thereto is prohibited. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 5:16 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

Anthony Youngman wrote:
> I'm trying to get a working Gentoo at home. That's a game and a half
:-)
>
> When I succeed I'll likely try and create an ebuild to install UVPE.
Be
> nice to get that officially into portage :-)
>
> (I want to get a WordPerfect 8 ebuild working, too :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Wol
>   
I recently (within the past month) wiped my gentoo desktop box so I 
could try (K)ubuntu. (K)ubuntu seems to be a decent enough distribution,

but for the life of me I still don't understand its popularity. Their 
policy on root accounts alone was enough to put me off. The primary 
reason I prefer Linux to any MS solution is that Linux, for the most 
part, doesn't make judgement calls about what I want to do with MY 
computer. (K)ubuntu threw that right out the window with their sudo 
nonsense.

It was a bad decision. I had my reasons for replacing gentoo, among them

the lack of a recent install CD. However I just checked www.gentoo.org, 
and imagine my surprise... there's a 2007.0 install finally available. I

guess I'll spend the weekend reinstalling. Yes, you read that correctly:

the weekend.

I've been a Linux user since 1994 (I still have an ancient Yggdrasil 
distribution, boot floppy and all).  I've tried most of the major 
players, and landed on gentoo about three years ago. What sold me was 
the amount of control you have with gentoo. Want to try a bleeding edge 
app? Preface 'emerge' with 'ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="~x86"' (replace ~x86 with 
your platform of choice).  'USE' keywords offer very fine granularity 
over what libraries get used when you install a package.

And the gentoo wiki offers some of the best documentation I've seen for 
ANY computer platform.

My email archives fail me right now, and my middle-aged memory has been 
all but useless for quite some time now (I blame the '70's, but there ya

go). Someone in the openqm community had an ebuild going for gentoo.

In short (is it too late for that?), good luck with building your gentoo

system. If ya got any questions (WordPerfect 8??) feel free to holler at
me.

--
Dave Walker
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Marc Harbeson]

Or if IBM legal is the issue - why not provide IBM the image, and let
the users download it from there.

I can't believe IBM is so backward they can't do this.  (well, maybe I
can)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Normandin,
Jerry
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 9:36 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

We can have an archive of the PE version within the virtual machine.
When the virtual machine boots for the firstime  the user will be guided
through the PE installation and force the user to navigate through the
license and install PE from the archive.

Jerry Normandin
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[David Wolverton]

But again, U2UG cannot actually put the installation in the VM. They HAVE to
go to the website and download it.

So - all you could do is a script that to leads them to the download site.
The still have to endure the 60+MB download of stuff they need.  

It's IBM's gift to the fledgling incubator user - learn to suffer!  (I hope
it builds character! )

In reality, this being a legal issue is hooey... Anyone who wanted to make
this work who was high enough up on IBM's side could make it possible if it
were important enough to them.  The whole legal issue could be fixed in a
'legalese wrapper' for the installation.  I suspect the fact is, it's
important to the U2UG and others like us, but as Dawn pointed out - why does
IBM care one way or the other?  That's why the process will end up being
convoluted and leave the 'wow, this is a pain' experience (think like no
SBClient - lots of downloads) - no one high up enough at IBM is greasing the
rails to make it smoother.


DW


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> Normandin, Jerry
> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 8:36 AM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
> 
> We can have an archive of the PE version within the virtual machine.
> When the virtual machine boots for the firstime  the user 
> will be guided through the PE installation and force the user 
> to navigate through the license and install PE from the archive.
> 
> Jerry Normandin
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[brian]

Jerry,

It's a good idea, but we've been there also.

The image would contain stuff not belonging to IBM (ie our learner packs) so 
they won't do it (legal reasons again). 

That's why we've gone for the automated-as-far-as-possible download and install 
route.

Like I said, this discussion has been ongoing for some time..

Brian

Or if IBM legal is the issue - why not provide IBM the image, and let
the users download it from there.

I can't believe IBM is so backward they can't do this.  (well, maybe I
can)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Normandin,
Jerry
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 9:36 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

We can have an archive of the PE version within the virtual machine.
When the virtual machine boots for the firstime  the user will be guided
through the PE installation and force the user to navigate through the
license and install PE from the archive.

Jerry Normandin
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[brian]

Tom

Thanks! That's just the kind of thing we're looking for.

We're not settled on the file system yet, BUT..

My first document - an intro to creating your first application - uses the 
Wychbooks demonstration database that I've also used for some of the knowledge 
base articles, and from my point of view it would make sense to carry on with 
that until someone comes up with something better. 

I've also done a UniVerse import of the freedb.org database - a CD listing with 
about 3 million titles, used by WinAmp and other open source media players. It 
turns into a nice mv database (each CD has multivalued tracks with translates 
to artists, genres etc) so that might also be worth plundering..

You can download a copy of the wychbooks demo from my website 
(www.brianleach.co.uk) if you want to take a quick look in the meantime.

Best Regards
 
Brian

Charles (looking for some help) Barouch:

I have some fairly self contained routines for both Sockets interface and
for file Triggers that I would be willing to customize for use with what
ever file structure the U2UG learner pack has designed.  I think these are
two of the really great features of U2.

Tom Dodds 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Barouch
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 4:25 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

All,
   Let me respond to some of these... but first:

MOST IMPORTANT! We need content for the learner packs! Please contact 
U2UG President Brian Leach with specific offers to help. We need code 
examples, well reasoned tutorials, and more. These packs are a big part 
of making the incubator work.

Gabriel,
   I am currently writing an MV book and editing another. The first will 
be distributed free as a PDF and the second will be a college text book. 
We already have one College committed to using it bt I can't say more at 
this time.

Rob, Dave & Jerry,
VMware was my original proposal and IBM legal found that 
problematic.It may be possible in the future but we won't hold this up 
waiting for it.

Karl,
   The hot links included in the incubator will point to a lot of U2UG 
content so that we can keep things dynamic and current.

-- 

Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Dawn Wolthuis]

Brian -- Good work with everything you have done.  I love the new web
site with UniVerse backing it -- super!  (when will it be the one we
get to at u2ug.org?)

I like your various utilities.  I couldn't find the demo database in
my first pass of late at your web site, but will return again later as
there was more to see.

I have no doubt that you will do good work with the incubator too,
but, again, it might be an opportunity for the board to get a clear
understanding from IBM as to their target audience and with what type
of prospective customer they will be activitly engaged in helping to
close the deal.  Are 30, 60, or 90% of their marketing efforts towards
existing VARs and their prospects? What % of IBM's database marketing
dollars and what % of the U2 marketing dollars are targeted to getting
new VARs who have never used a Pick product before?  What percentage
to trying to woo non-U2, but currently multivalue VARs or application
providers?

If you get people some portion of the way there, is IBM planning to
allocate any dollars to taking those that the U2UG and the incubator
project bring in and try to convert them to customers?  In spite of
not choosing it for my current project, I still hope you are able to
be very successful, which is why I am jumping in with this concern.
I'm not sure that even if it were an "if we build it, they will come"
situation, that the next piece is in place. Having the ability to do
what you are planning might give you some leverage with IBM to get
some more commitment from them to possibly widen their scope. It might
even be helpful to the U2 team if the U2UG asks IBM some questions
along these lines.  Best wishes.  --dawn

On 5/11/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Tom

Thanks! That's just the kind of thing we're looking for.

We're not settled on the file system yet, BUT..

My first document - an intro to creating your first application - uses the 
Wychbooks demonstration database that I've also used for some of the knowledge 
base articles, and from my point of view it would make sense to carry on with 
that until someone comes up with something better.

I've also done a UniVerse import of the freedb.org database - a CD listing with 
about 3 million titles, used by WinAmp and other open source media players. It 
turns into a nice mv database (each CD has multivalued tracks with translates 
to artists, genres etc) so that might also be worth plundering..

You can download a copy of the wychbooks demo from my website 
(www.brianleach.co.uk) if you want to take a quick look in the meantime.

Best Regards

Brian

Charles (looking for some help) Barouch:

I have some fairly self contained routines for both Sockets interface and
for file Triggers that I would be willing to customize for use with what
ever file structure the U2UG learner pack has designed.  I think these are
two of the really great features of U2.

Tom Dodds

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Barouch
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 4:25 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

All,
  Let me respond to some of these... but first:

MOST IMPORTANT! We need content for the learner packs! Please contact
U2UG President Brian Leach with specific offers to help. We need code
examples, well reasoned tutorials, and more. These packs are a big part
of making the incubator work.

Gabriel,
  I am currently writing an MV book and editing another. The first will
be distributed free as a PDF and the second will be a college text book.
We already have one College committed to using it bt I can't say more at
this time.

Rob, Dave & Jerry,
   VMware was my original proposal and IBM legal found that
problematic.It may be possible in the future but we won't hold this up
waiting for it.

Karl,
  The hot links included in the incubator will point to a lot of U2UG
content so that we can keep things dynamic and current.

--

   Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
   P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
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--
Dawn M. Wolthuis
Tincat Group, Inc.  tincat-group.com

Take and give some delight today
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[brian]

Sorry I didn't mean that to go to the whole list.. should have looked before I 
hit the reply.

Brian

| Tom
| Thanks! That's just the kind of thing we're looking for.
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[brian]

Dawn

Thanks!

The u2ug address is 'in progress' - Chuck's doing a test run with u2ug.net to 
get to the new site. Once we know that's all working, we'll repeat the process 
with u2ug.org.

Yes, my own web site is always bottom of the list  and really needs 
reorganizing and some new content. Isn't that always the way? I've got a whole 
bunch more free utilities I just need to package up to go on there - starting 
with a nice and easy Windows editor that I use every day now but just never got 
round to polishing.

As for IBM - I'm actually not hugely concerned, which may seem a strange 
attitude. Let me explain: we've all spent years saying "why doesn't the vendor 
do (marketing, promotion, whatever it might be)...". It's become such an 
ingrained response that it is almost a mantra. Yes, we want them to do these 
things, but the problem is, whilst the vendor doesn't, we don't either. The 
same charges were levelled against everyone from VMARK to Microdata and nothing 
has changed.

I really believe the only way to resurrect the model is from within the 
community and the people who use it. It would, of course, be good to get 
marketing information from IBM but I'm not going to sit back and wait for it. 
That's better handled by those who are more market-aware than I.

What I really hope is to try to motivate the user group members to start 
promoting in small ways. The cumulative effect could be very powerful. Look at 
how PHP started life..

Am I being too hopeful/cynical?


Best Regards

Brian

Brian -- Good work with everything you have done.  I love the new web
site with UniVerse backing it -- super!  (when will it be the one we
get to at u2ug.org?)

I like your various utilities.  I couldn't find the demo database in
my first pass of late at your web site, but will return again later as
there was more to see.

I have no doubt that you will do good work with the incubator too,
but, again, it might be an opportunity for the board to get a clear
understanding from IBM as to their target audience and with what type
of prospective customer they will be activitly engaged in helping to
close the deal.  Are 30, 60, or 90% of their marketing efforts towards
existing VARs and their prospects? What % of IBM's database marketing
dollars and what % of the U2 marketing dollars are targeted to getting
new VARs who have never used a Pick product before?  What percentage
to trying to woo non-U2, but currently multivalue VARs or application
providers?

If you get people some portion of the way there, is IBM planning to
allocate any dollars to taking those that the U2UG and the incubator
project bring in and try to convert them to customers?  In spite of
not choosing it for my current project, I still hope you are able to
be very successful, which is why I am jumping in with this concern.
I'm not sure that even if it were an "if we build it, they will come"
situation, that the next piece is in place. Having the ability to do
what you are planning might give you some leverage with IBM to get
some more commitment from them to possibly widen their scope. It might
even be helpful to the U2 team if the U2UG asks IBM some questions
along these lines.  Best wishes.  --dawn
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Ross Ferris]

Of course, I assume that there is nothing wrong with having a
pre-configured OS image for the player that will ensure success. With
Linux could then be as simple as "Click the 'Install Universe' Icon on
the desktop", which scripts file transfer, downloads etc ... IBM have
the technology & skills to do this, just a matter of seeing if they have
the will & dedication (good call/comparison of earlier poster with
DB-Express reference)

Ross Ferris
Stamina Software
Visage > Better by Design!

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-u2-
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Barouch
>Sent: Friday, 11 May 2007 9:25 AM
>To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
>Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
>
>All,
>   Let me respond to some of these... but first:
>
>MOST IMPORTANT! We need content for the learner packs! Please contact
>U2UG President Brian Leach with specific offers to help. We need code
>examples, well reasoned tutorials, and more. These packs are a big part
>of making the incubator work.
>
>Gabriel,
>   I am currently writing an MV book and editing another. The first
will
>be distributed free as a PDF and the second will be a college text
book.
>We already have one College committed to using it bt I can't say more
at
>this time.
>
>Rob, Dave & Jerry,
>VMware was my original proposal and IBM legal found that
>problematic.It may be possible in the future but we won't hold this up
>waiting for it.
>
>Karl,
>   The hot links included in the incubator will point to a lot of U2UG
>content so that we can keep things dynamic and current.
>
>--
>
>Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
>www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
>P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
>---
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>u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
>To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
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RE: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Ross Ferris]

I have to agree 1000% with this idea - though it is likely to blow the
size of the install image out quite a bit, and probably takes it beyond
the scope of a simple/quick download.

HOWEVER, the benefits of then having an environment with everything
setup CORRECTLY are obvious. Of course, not sure what would be involved
on the Microsoft side of the camp to have a Windows image in place -
probably even problematic with something like RedHat (looking at
SUPPORTED platforms here, rather than platforms that you may be able to
get PE to run on with sufficient knowledge/tweaking

Ross Ferris
Stamina Software
Visage > Better by Design!

>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-u2-
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Friday, 11 May 2007 3:13 AM
>To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
>Subject: Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board
>
>It strikes me that one good way to deliver this would be using VMware
or
>some other similar virtualisation technology that can be run in a free
>player (VMware Player) on any Windows or Linux operating system.  This
>would make the install easy and all the databases and documentation
etc.
>could be pre-installed.
>
>Regards,
>
>Rob Wills
>(rob dot wills at inter hyphen weavers dot com)
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/05/2007 04:39:21:
>
>> All,
>> The U2UG board has been discussing the 'incubator plan' and we
>will
>> soon be presenting a draft proposal to membership. Here's what we are
>> discussing in broad brushstrokes - all feedback appreciated.
>>
>> We want an *easy* *legal* way to get PE editions into the hands
of
>> business people, college students, entrepreneurs, and other market
>> expanders. More than that, we need to get people a version of the PE
>> software which is chock full of examples, training materials, and
>useful
>
>> information.
>>
>> Here's what we have in mind: We want to build an installer which
>> pulls the PE editions from the IBM website (allowing the user to sign
>> the IBM agreement), pulls Learner Packs from the U2UG website
>(allowing
>> the user to sign the U2UG agreement - designed to protect the content
>> all of you will - hopefully - contribute). Finally, the installer
will
>> bootstrap the Learner Packs into the PE installation, so the
accounts,
>> files, and programs, etc. are all in place.
>>  The end result will be a full install, with URLs to get them to
>the
>
>> U2UG and other key locations. It will allow people to see our
>technology
>
>> in the best light possible. Opinions? Flames? Offers to Help?
>---
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Anthony W. Youngman]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Charles Barouch 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

Gabriel,
 I am currently writing an MV book and editing another. The first will 
be distributed free as a PDF and the second will be a college text 
book. We already have one College committed to using it bt I can't say 
more at this time.


I ought to rewrite my stuff about MV. What I'll try and do is write a 
"Why MV" article. I've found a nice little Einstein quote - "As far as 
the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as 
far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." And there's 
always Knuth - "Beware of bugs, I have only proved this program correct, 
not tested it".


You know my complaint about Relational is maths not science ... :-) I 
need to word that in simple words that a novice can understand, and then 
we might break the relational death-grip :-)


I've got a new analogy to replace Newton :-) You know that map problem? 
How many colours it takes to guarantee no two adjacent regions share a 
colour? Well, it's easy to prove that seven colours are both necessary 
and sufficient ...


Hang on!!! EASY? And SEVEN? Well, it is. Provided you choose a 
convenient reality to do it in. Just don't choose a two-dimensional 
reality to do it in. Bit like database analysis, really. It's easy, if 
you don't choose a two-dimensional reality to do it in :-)


Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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Re: [U2] Incubator - News from the board

[Dawn Wolthuis]

It sounds like there is enough material among us all to perhaps pull
it together in a single book. If anyone would like to work on pulling
something like that together...

BTW, Is the four-color theorem still one that has only been proven "by
computer" or is there now an elegant mathematical proof too?   --dawn

On 5/11/07, Anthony W. Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Charles Barouch
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>Gabriel,
>  I am currently writing an MV book and editing another. The first will
>be distributed free as a PDF and the second will be a college text
>book. We already have one College committed to using it bt I can't say
>more at this time.

I ought to rewrite my stuff about MV. What I'll try and do is write a
"Why MV" article. I've found a nice little Einstein quote - "As far as
the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as
far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." And there's
always Knuth - "Beware of bugs, I have only proved this program correct,
not tested it".

You know my complaint about Relational is maths not science ... :-) I
need to word that in simple words that a novice can understand, and then
we might break the relational death-grip :-)

I've got a new analogy to replace Newton :-) You know that map problem?
How many colours it takes to guarantee no two adjacent regions share a
colour? Well, it's easy to prove that seven colours are both necessary
and sufficient ...

Hang on!!! EASY? And SEVEN? Well, it is. Provided you choose a
convenient reality to do it in. Just don't choose a two-dimensional
reality to do it in. Bit like database analysis, really. It's easy, if
you don't choose a two-dimensional reality to do it in :-)

Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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--
Dawn M. Wolthuis
Tincat Group, Inc.  tincat-group.com

Take and give some delight today
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MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Charles Barouch]

Dawn,
What I really need is your plenty potent Professorial powers to get 
more colleges willing to teach the course once we have the textbook read.

- Chuck

Dawn Wolthuis wrote:

Very cool, Chuck. If you need a reader, you know where I live... (and
if it happens to be one that someone else started, then I've already
read some if it)

cheers!  --dawn



--

   Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
   www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
   P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[MAJ Programming]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any college courses for MV.

I have 2 kids, aged 20 & 17. When the 20 yr old was in 7th grade (7 years
ago) they were exposed to Microsoft Office items like Word, Excel,
PowerPoint, Publisher and even Access. Likewise for the 17 yr old more
recently.

>From that point forward, the kids are incredibly immersed in everything
GUI/windows/internet. The endless hours of IMing, downloading, surfing and
everything else GUI seems to point forward in the right direction.

Thus, imagine a college student considering such courses as Cisco
Certification, MCSE and other highly visible entities also considering an MV
course if it were offered. Upon the first day they would quickly drop the
course as MV offers neither an entertainable/WYSIWYG environment, a familiar
data structure (to those weened on everything MS), a practical purpose for
the individual nor any seemingly useful employment opportunities.

Sorry for the dark cloud but I can't imagine even the most purposeful young
adult considering MV. I teach the Computer merit badge in the Boy Scouts and
even that course outline is heavily MS. I even took the brightest kid in my
class, a senior at a local High-Tech (Gifted & Talented) high school and
fired up one of my D3 systems to show him how I make a living.

I spent way too much time trying to make analogies in MV to what I know he
knows about MS Access. This kid is Cisco Certified from his school and
capable of understanding the MV model. But since it was different, it was an
uphill battle to illustrate some of its superior features.

I saw the look in his eyes that he was being polite in letting me speak but
he was clearly not interested in something that looks like DOS. While I know
that there are many 4GL's and GUI overlays for MV, it still is a huge amount
of command-line stuff.

We are the best kept secret in the computer business. Virtually zero people
have heard of Pick, MV or any of the old or present flavors. Yes, everyone's
heard of IBM but that's about it. Honeywell makes air conditioners, Mcdonnel
Douglass makes airplanes and Sanyo makes consumer electronics.

I believe there is a delicate balance between proficient MV programmers and
MV environments. The newer MV programmers may have gotten thrust into
supporting a MV environment when their employers added that slight
responsibility to their otherwise IT (network/Ms/unix) list.

I'm sure actual mileage may differ but not by much. I'm glad I'm an
independent programmer as a few of my full-time MV programmer
acquaintenances are now looking at their MV jobs disappearing with each MV
system being replaced. Hopefully they are professionally versed in other
environments as I am endeavouring as well.

My 3 cents
Mark Johnson


- Original Message -
From: "Charles Barouch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 11:24 AM
Subject: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)


> Dawn,
>  What I really need is your plenty potent Professorial powers to get
> more colleges willing to teach the course once we have the textbook read.
>  - Chuck
>
> Dawn Wolthuis wrote:
> > Very cool, Chuck. If you need a reader, you know where I live... (and
> > if it happens to be one that someone else started, then I've already
> > read some if it)
> >
> > cheers!  --dawn
>
>
> --
>
> Charles Barouch ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> www.KeyAlly.com (718) 762-3884 x 1
> P. O. Box 540957, Queens, NY 11354
> ---
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Charles Barouch]

Mark,
  Not a class on MV, a class on introduction to programatic thought, 
using MV as a clean, graspable BAISC.


  - Chuck "Stealth" Barouch

MAJ Programming wrote:

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any college courses for MV.
I have 2 kids, aged 20 & 17. When the 20 yr old was in 7th grade (7 years
ago) they were exposed to Microsoft Office items like Word, Excel,
PowerPoint, Publisher and even Access. Likewise for the 17 yr old more
recently.
>From that point forward, the kids are incredibly immersed in everything
GUI/windows/internet. The endless hours of IMing, downloading, surfing and
everything else GUI seems to point forward in the right direction.
Thus, imagine a college student considering such courses as Cisco
Certification, MCSE and other highly visible entities also considering an MV
course if it were offered. Upon the first day they would quickly drop the
course as MV offers neither an entertainable/WYSIWYG environment, a familiar
data structure (to those weened on everything MS), a practical purpose for
the individual nor any seemingly useful employment opportunities.

Sorry for the dark cloud but I can't imagine even the most purposeful young
adult considering MV. I teach the Computer merit badge in the Boy Scouts and
even that course outline is heavily MS. I even took the brightest kid in my
class, a senior at a local High-Tech (Gifted & Talented) high school and
fired up one of my D3 systems to show him how I make a living.

I spent way too much time trying to make analogies in MV to what I know he
knows about MS Access. This kid is Cisco Certified from his school and
capable of understanding the MV model. But since it was different, it was an
uphill battle to illustrate some of its superior features.

I saw the look in his eyes that he was being polite in letting me speak but
he was clearly not interested in something that looks like DOS. While I know
that there are many 4GL's and GUI overlays for MV, it still is a huge amount
of command-line stuff.

We are the best kept secret in the computer business. Virtually zero people
have heard of Pick, MV or any of the old or present flavors. Yes, everyone's
heard of IBM but that's about it. Honeywell makes air conditioners, Mcdonnel
Douglass makes airplanes and Sanyo makes consumer electronics.

I believe there is a delicate balance between proficient MV programmers and
MV environments. The newer MV programmers may have gotten thrust into
supporting a MV environment when their employers added that slight
responsibility to their otherwise IT (network/Ms/unix) list.

I'm sure actual mileage may differ but not by much. I'm glad I'm an
independent programmer as a few of my full-time MV programmer
acquaintenances are now looking at their MV jobs disappearing with each MV
system being replaced. Hopefully they are professionally versed in other
environments as I am endeavouring as well.

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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Dawn Wolthuis]

I can imagine two possible curriculae in which a textbook could work.
The area I have been researching might lend itself to a supplemental
text (far easier to get approved for a course than an actual text
book) within a Computer Science, Information Systems, Database-y
curriculum specifically for the purpose of showing that not all
databases are SQL-DBMS's (or deriving from the RDBMS wave). Simply
showing the video I mentioned is helpful to giving students who have
spent half a semester normalizing data a broader perspective. If your
book would fit into that curriculum, I have already given some thought
on how to pursue that, enough to decide it was not worth it to me, but
it might be to you and your publisher. Some of this has to do with
what the current reach and goals of your publisher are.

The second area would be an introduction to programming, to give
non-CS majors more of a clue about the profession of software
development than they would get by coding Excel macros.  Sam Anderson
and others worked with Martin at Ladybridge to get an OO
implementation in OpenQM, making it a good candidate for such a
course. Students can then learn both procedural and OO programming.

I have less knowledge of what the business curriculae are like across
the US, recognizig they vary greatly, to have a clue how to market to
this crowd. They are more likely to listen to what industry is telling
them they need in student skillsets and also perhaps more swayed by
magazines on what the trends are in computing, so I'm not sure how
easy it would be to break in with BASIC at this point, but if it is
positioned well and your pilot site has good success, I can imagine
some others possibly being interested.

You likely know this, but the requirements for textbooks these days
include such things as integration with BlackBoard and Moodle, with an
adjustable syllabus, powerpoints for each day of class sometimes and
even online quizes and tests, as well as possibly both an instructor
and student web site with working examples and such. If your publisher
is not set up for textbook sales, it could be difficult for
instructors to find your offering.

Java is currently the language that incoming Freshman need to know in
order to get college credit for any programming efforts from their
high school years.  It is not an easy language to get into, however.
So, I can imagine getting students started with something else, such
as BASIC (although Python or even Ruby come to mind, but are not as
easy for data processing)

Now, I just talked to you on the phone the other day, Chuck, and we
chatted about a lot of your various jobs, but this one didn't even
come up. You sure are keepin' busy!  --dawn

On 5/11/07, Charles Barouch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Mark,
  Not a class on MV, a class on introduction to programatic thought,
using MV as a clean, graspable BAISC.

  - Chuck "Stealth" Barouch

MAJ Programming wrote:
> I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any college courses for MV.
> I have 2 kids, aged 20 & 17. When the 20 yr old was in 7th grade (7 years
> ago) they were exposed to Microsoft Office items like Word, Excel,
> PowerPoint, Publisher and even Access. Likewise for the 17 yr old more
> recently.
> >From that point forward, the kids are incredibly immersed in everything
> GUI/windows/internet. The endless hours of IMing, downloading, surfing and
> everything else GUI seems to point forward in the right direction.
> Thus, imagine a college student considering such courses as Cisco
> Certification, MCSE and other highly visible entities also considering an MV
> course if it were offered. Upon the first day they would quickly drop the
> course as MV offers neither an entertainable/WYSIWYG environment, a familiar
> data structure (to those weened on everything MS), a practical purpose for
> the individual nor any seemingly useful employment opportunities.
>
> Sorry for the dark cloud but I can't imagine even the most purposeful young
> adult considering MV. I teach the Computer merit badge in the Boy Scouts and
> even that course outline is heavily MS. I even took the brightest kid in my
> class, a senior at a local High-Tech (Gifted & Talented) high school and
> fired up one of my D3 systems to show him how I make a living.
>
> I spent way too much time trying to make analogies in MV to what I know he
> knows about MS Access. This kid is Cisco Certified from his school and
> capable of understanding the MV model. But since it was different, it was an
> uphill battle to illustrate some of its superior features.
>
> I saw the look in his eyes that he was being polite in letting me speak but
> he was clearly not interested in something that looks like DOS. While I know
> that there are many 4GL's and GUI overlays for MV, it still is a huge amount
> of command-line stuff.
>
> We are the best kept secret in the computer business. Virtually zero people
> have heard of Pick, MV or any of the old or present flavors. Yes, everyone's
> heard of

Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[MAJ Programming]

I just completed an interesting project in VB6 that I'm planning to market.

It doesn't use any external database but beaucoups of existing folders and
files.

While being in 'Basic', there are clearly some shortcomings in MS Basic (VB,
QB, GWB or Dartmouth) that an experienced MV programmer will come across.

Probably one of the most advanced features of MV Basic that doesn't exist
directly in the others is the dynamic array. Sure, they have dimensioned
arrays. But dynamic arrays are very powerful.

I sorely miss the INSERT and DELETE functions. When parsing complete MS
filenames, I miss the FIELD function for breaking out folders vs filenames.

Many other functions show up in both but the number one function pair is
OCONV and ICONV. How incredibly powerful these are. I actually wrote two
functions called OCONV and ICONV and manually manage some MTHS and MD2
stuff.

Teaching a newbie MV Basic as an entre' to 'Basic' is like giving a new
teenage driver a Lexus as their first car. They'll never get the real
appreciation for the advanced features of the Lexus until first endured a
much lessor car.

Sure VB has tons of object-oriented entities as well as many system-level
stuff based on the environment. But it lacks some of the more obvious
functions that I've had to create by myself.

My 1 cent
Mark Johnson
- Original Message -
From: "Charles Barouch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)


> Mark,
>Not a class on MV, a class on introduction to programatic thought,
> using MV as a clean, graspable BAISC.
>
>- Chuck "Stealth" Barouch
>
> MAJ Programming wrote:
> > I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any college courses for MV.
> > I have 2 kids, aged 20 & 17. When the 20 yr old was in 7th grade (7
years
> > ago) they were exposed to Microsoft Office items like Word, Excel,
> > PowerPoint, Publisher and even Access. Likewise for the 17 yr old more
> > recently.
> > >From that point forward, the kids are incredibly immersed in everything
> > GUI/windows/internet. The endless hours of IMing, downloading, surfing
and
> > everything else GUI seems to point forward in the right direction.
> > Thus, imagine a college student considering such courses as Cisco
> > Certification, MCSE and other highly visible entities also considering
an MV
> > course if it were offered. Upon the first day they would quickly drop
the
> > course as MV offers neither an entertainable/WYSIWYG environment, a
familiar
> > data structure (to those weened on everything MS), a practical purpose
for
> > the individual nor any seemingly useful employment opportunities.
> >
> > Sorry for the dark cloud but I can't imagine even the most purposeful
young
> > adult considering MV. I teach the Computer merit badge in the Boy Scouts
and
> > even that course outline is heavily MS. I even took the brightest kid in
my
> > class, a senior at a local High-Tech (Gifted & Talented) high school and
> > fired up one of my D3 systems to show him how I make a living.
> >
> > I spent way too much time trying to make analogies in MV to what I know
he
> > knows about MS Access. This kid is Cisco Certified from his school and
> > capable of understanding the MV model. But since it was different, it
was an
> > uphill battle to illustrate some of its superior features.
> >
> > I saw the look in his eyes that he was being polite in letting me speak
but
> > he was clearly not interested in something that looks like DOS. While I
know
> > that there are many 4GL's and GUI overlays for MV, it still is a huge
amount
> > of command-line stuff.
> >
> > We are the best kept secret in the computer business. Virtually zero
people
> > have heard of Pick, MV or any of the old or present flavors. Yes,
everyone's
> > heard of IBM but that's about it. Honeywell makes air conditioners,
Mcdonnel
> > Douglass makes airplanes and Sanyo makes consumer electronics.
> >
> > I believe there is a delicate balance between proficient MV programmers
and
> > MV environments. The newer MV programmers may have gotten thrust into
> > supporting a MV environment when their employers added that slight
> > responsibility to their otherwise IT (network/Ms/unix) list.
> >
> > I'm sure actual mileage may differ but not by much. I'm glad I'm an
> > independent programmer as a few of my full-time MV programmer
> > acquaintenances are now looking at their MV jobs disappearing with each
MV
> > system being replaced. Hopefully they are professionally versed in other
> > environments as I am endeavouring as well.
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RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Tony Gravagno]

Mark wrote:
> ... Upon the first day they
> would quickly drop the course as MV offers neither

> an entertainable/WYSIWYG environment

For reference, MSDE has/had no UI either but it's used in many
environments.  MySQL has a command line, plus third-parties offer GUI
administration tools.  The problem here is that people insist on the MV
vendors providing all of the tools, and then we get brain dead utilities
that people don't like, and the DBMS vendors don't have the bandwidth to
maintain them.  If we follow the lead of the mainstream market and leave
more to the aftermarket we might make some headway.

>, a familiar data structure (to those weened on everything MS)

The problem of being second in line is that you need to overcome
pre-conceived notions.  You either need to be first in line to put a data
model into someone's head, thus forcing everyone else to overcome the
hurdle.  Or just deal with it.  Most people are smart enough to understand
more than one structure simultanously, like *nix and Win32, and kids
especially are quite good at absorbing diverse paradigms.

>, a practical purpose for the individual

Relational data models aren't taught with any more or less purpose than one
might use with MV.  I think this is a matter of style.  (This point isn't
worth discussing.)

> nor any seemingly useful employment opportunities. 

This is a chicken and egg scenario - low user count means low demand for
developers, and since people generally measure the success of a product by
the volume of job ads, if the job market is down they won't buy the system
to employ new people.  I personally believe the whole premise is wrong.
The MV market doesn't need DBA's so we don't advertise for them.  That
doesn't mean the job market is down it means our TCO is down.
Unfortunately we can't make that point with employers in the classifieds.

> I even took the brightest kid in my class...
> ... he was clearly not interested in something that looks like
> DOS. While I know that there are many 4GL's and GUI overlays for MV,
> it still is a huge amount of command-line stuff.

I'm sorry but I think this had more to do with approach and implementation
than a deficiency in the tools.  I think MV people are way too quick to
play the DOS card, and in some ways enjoy being the under-appreciated
underdog with the best kept secret.  Giving the impression that we need the
DOS-like shell because nothing else is available is self-destructive in a
demo.  By citing the command shell as a fast and efficient option, the
whole impression is changed.  Call it marketing spin - but that's what
everyone else is using to sell ideas to your kids and it works.

Linux is successful in part because it is driven from the command line.
The Linux GUI desktop has yet to enjoy similar success.  Being GUI isn't
enough, there are a ton of X desktops - it's applications that are missing.
Many MV environments have a GUI but people are reticent to use the tools.
Let's not ignore tools that are available and then blame the environment.
If we can't compete without a GUI for system administration then why
preytell don't we see more third-parties writing GUI administration tools?
Seems like a hungry market to me.

> a few of my full-time MV programmer
> acquaintenances are now looking at their MV jobs disappearing with
> each MV system being replaced. Hopefully they are professionally
> versed in other environments as I am endeavouring as well.

IT people wear a lot of hats these days, and having multiple skills is
required in many environments.  Unemployment is likely for anyone who does
not continue their education in directions that will (hopefully) benefit
their employer.  The ability to adapt is a principle of evolution - and
those species (people) that don't adapt go extinct (unemployed).

TG@ opinions.a.plentyNebula-RnD.com
Specializing in GUI and advanced development tools and services for MV.
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RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[David Jordan]

Hi Mark

This is a common misconception that you have identified.  Just because mv
has capability to do character based applications, it does not mean that mv
is limited to character base application.

With todays environment of web services, GUI, browser based applications,
development is split into multiple tiers, ie a user interface and business
logic.  Whilst Microsoft may have a hold on the market related to the client
interface, it is not the case with the business logic.  Many Multivalue
Developers have split their applications into client interfaces and business
logic, using .Net or java on the client side and multivalue on the business
backend.

If you consider the business logic side, which is not sexy, but is an
essential component of the business, now multivalue is highly competitive
with Microsoft.   The reality is that if you compared programming languages
withing databases, Basic is far better than the bastardised SQL that the
other databases use.  Considering the business logic side, it is not wonder,
that where mv is taught in collages, it tends to be in the business course
not the computer science course.

Regards

David Jordan
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RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Brian Leach]

Mark

I'm sorry I have take issue with you here.

MV does not 'look like DOS'. Only MV apps used by companies too lazy to
migrate to modern front ends or people so immersed in the past 40 years of
PICK that they've never kept their skills aligned with the modern world.

Frankly I haven't written a green screen MV application in the last 15
years. There has been no reason to. Ever since UO came on the market, it
gave us a way to write client/server and distributed software based on
functionality and using an RPC architecture (ie. External Basic subroutine
calls) instead of the dumb datasets needed by other databases.

The real benefits of the MV model are the benefits of having a
function-based business tier that works superbly - via UniObjects - with
current presentation tiers like .NET and needs no artificially divorced data
access layer. 

Look at what is happening in the rest of the market. Ever more
buzzword-centric attempts to solve a problem that the mainstream database
world has never solved: how to organize a data driven recordset-based model
into a streamlined and functionally rich business tier. Recordsets are just
by their nature inefficient, the locking/merge mechanisms difficult and the
wrappers - however good a job .NET may make of automating them - convoluted
and burdensome.

In .NET2 the presentation layer binds objects, not just data. A real life
business tier should be object and functionality based, not data driven. And
that is always where U2 has been strongest. 

Once again, U2 was way ahead and nobody noticed. 


Brian

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MAJ 
> Programming
> Sent: 12 May 2007 01:06
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)
> 
> I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any college courses for MV.
> 
> I have 2 kids, aged 20 & 17. When the 20 yr old was in 7th 
> grade (7 years
> ago) they were exposed to Microsoft Office items like Word, 
> Excel, PowerPoint, Publisher and even Access. Likewise for 
> the 17 yr old more recently.
> 
> From that point forward, the kids are incredibly immersed in 
> everything GUI/windows/internet. The endless hours of IMing, 
> downloading, surfing and everything else GUI seems to point 
> forward in the right direction.
> 
> Thus, imagine a college student considering such courses as 
> Cisco Certification, MCSE and other highly visible entities 
> also considering an MV course if it were offered. Upon the 
> first day they would quickly drop the course as MV offers 
> neither an entertainable/WYSIWYG environment, a familiar data 
> structure (to those weened on everything MS), a practical 
> purpose for the individual nor any seemingly useful 
> employment opportunities.
> 
> Sorry for the dark cloud but I can't imagine even the most 
> purposeful young adult considering MV. I teach the Computer 
> merit badge in the Boy Scouts and even that course outline is 
> heavily MS. I even took the brightest kid in my class, a 
> senior at a local High-Tech (Gifted & Talented) high school 
> and fired up one of my D3 systems to show him how I make a living.
> 
> I spent way too much time trying to make analogies in MV to 
> what I know he knows about MS Access. This kid is Cisco 
> Certified from his school and capable of understanding the MV 
> model. But since it was different, it was an uphill battle to 
> illustrate some of its superior features.
> 
> I saw the look in his eyes that he was being polite in 
> letting me speak but he was clearly not interested in 
> something that looks like DOS. While I know that there are 
> many 4GL's and GUI overlays for MV, it still is a huge amount 
> of command-line stuff.
> 
> We are the best kept secret in the computer business. 
> Virtually zero people have heard of Pick, MV or any of the 
> old or present flavors. Yes, everyone's heard of IBM but 
> that's about it. Honeywell makes air conditioners, Mcdonnel 
> Douglass makes airplanes and Sanyo makes consumer electronics.
> 
> I believe there is a delicate balance between proficient MV 
> programmers and MV environments. The newer MV programmers may 
> have gotten thrust into supporting a MV environment when 
> their employers added that slight responsibility to their 
> otherwise IT (network/Ms/unix) list.
> 
> I'm sure actual mileage may differ but not by much. I'm glad 
> I'm an independent programmer as a few of my full-time MV 
> programmer acquaintenances are now looking at their MV jobs 
> disappearing with each MV system being replaced. Hopefully 
> they are professionally versed in other environments as I am 
> endeavouring as well.
> 

RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[dave]

- Original Message - 
> Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 19:50:13 -0700
> From: "Tony Gravagno" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)
>
> Mark wrote:
> > ... Upon the first day they
> > would quickly drop the course as MV offers neither
>
> > an entertainable/WYSIWYG environment
>
> For reference, MSDE has/had no UI either but it's used in many
> environments.

I think you will find that MSDE is outdated. Its replacement, SQL/Express
has a very nice GUI interface for connection/database management, and ad-hoc
query development. Also the 2GB database limit has changed to 4GB. Then
again, to compare even MSDE to MV, you would probably need a cut-down
version of MV made up of just the file system and the query language.
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[MAJ Programming]

All:

I'm no stranger to voicing my observed professional opinion regarding MV (or
other topics) to see where my opinions lie with everyone else.

Perhaps I'm fortunate in that my 15 or so clients are pretty content with
their current MV systems, despite how far out of the 'norm' they may be.
While I speak for myself, I'm sure that the accumulated opinion of my
clients still bodes well for their green screens.

None are in technical businesses. A few are in manufacturing, publishing,
distribution and other tangible businesses.

Theirs is a gradual evolution in that new ideas may take a while before they
can be applied to their companies. As many will offer flames, I cannot
pepper every conversation with my clients on the latest and greatest
technologies. I've been down that road and it ain't as easy as many of the
others on this forum may expect.

This may throw down the gauntlet as many may feel that I'm dropping the ball
and not being the best for my clients. How can I be doing such a bad thing
for my clients when my average tenure with them is 10 years and I pretty
much remain until they get acquired or go out of business. Only 2 exist that
have retired their MV systems for something else.

I don't feel that I'm inhibiting my own growth as I truly wonder what
direction to invest my vocations in. I don't want to endeavor into the new
languages, especially java or net as I don't want to compete with every
22 year old fresh college graduate for those jobs.

I'm already making money with my VB project and if all goes well, I could
feasibly ramp up to this project generating 50% of my current income. While
VB may not be the latest and greatest, it is an example of the client
(customer) not really caring what's under the hood. They like my car.

Thanks
Mark Johnson
- Original Message -
From: "dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 4:07 PM
Subject: RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)


> - Original Message -
> > Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 19:50:13 -0700
> > From: "Tony Gravagno" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)
> >
> > Mark wrote:
> > > ... Upon the first day they
> > > would quickly drop the course as MV offers neither
> >
> > > an entertainable/WYSIWYG environment
> >
> > For reference, MSDE has/had no UI either but it's used in many
> > environments.
>
> I think you will find that MSDE is outdated. Its replacement, SQL/Express
> has a very nice GUI interface for connection/database management, and
ad-hoc
> query development. Also the 2GB database limit has changed to 4GB. Then
> again, to compare even MSDE to MV, you would probably need a cut-down
> version of MV made up of just the file system and the query language.
> ---
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RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Brian Leach]

Mark

Please don't feel my reply to your 'DOS-like' post was an attack. It
absolutely wasn't.

I just get frustrated that we - as a community - don't seem willing to
spread the word that this IS a vibrant and modern technology, but seem to
glory (and sometims wallow) in its past. Sometimes it seems we are
embarrassed to proclaim how good and up-to-date it really is, and take
refuge in our history when we should be trying to reach out. 

If this was a new technology, we'd all be blogging or telling our friends
about it.

Perhaps that's the problem. Maybe we just need to pretend it's something new
and radical. 

But then, people love MySQL, because it is simple and works (yes, it's also
free but so are PostgreSQL, Firebird and a dozen others that don't attract
anything like the following). People love PHP becaust it is simple and works
(and has easy-to-use database constructs, no data typing to worry about, is
fully cross platform, has no GUI - sound familiar ?). 

These are not sexy and 'new' technologies like Silverlight(1). They don't
have vendors and huge marketing dollars behind them. But they have strong
communities who feel passionately about them and who have spent years
telling everyone about them. I love PHP, and if I have to choose a SQL
database, yes I like MySQL. I recognize that they do their jobs well. The
same is true for what we have to offer, and it would be nice to feel that we
could all be a little bit more proud - and less apologetic - about it.


Brian

(1) Actually, what IS new about Silverlight? Apart from the name and the M$
gloss?

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MAJ 
> Programming
> Sent: 13 May 2007 00:22
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)
> 
> All:
> 
> I'm no stranger to voicing my observed professional opinion 
> regarding MV (or other topics) to see where my opinions lie 
> with everyone else.
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[MAJ Programming]

Brian/All:

As a seasoned MV professional, borne from the original implementations
through the multiple native expressions and now supporting clients on most
of the current versions, I have a wide perspective. One of my flamable
downsides is that I'm not exposed (via my clients) to that much of the
cutting edge technologies.

I've been around the block to know where I stand. TG and others have often
flamed me by providing a disservice to my clients by not telling them each
and every new entity that comes out. My problem is that so much of it seems
to be the flavor of the month.

Dawn's recent reply to this thread suggested a few new technologies that
I've never heard of. Silverlite and Firebird sound like car names. IMHO,
I've heard of PHP as a flavor of the month, just like I heard of Perl and C#
a few years ago.

Some may argue that I should not take my clients lead and 'follow' them but
rather take my own initiative and invest in a new alphabetic language and
promote it to my clients. Fair enough. But if I ask this forum for
suggestions, 10 people will give me 8 differing languaged suggestions. All
valid but based on objectives.

I may be the odd man out in a bunch of this. In another completely different
industry where I am a published writer, give seminars and have an ounce of
national recognition, I am labeled as a curmudgeon with my rather pragmatic
opinions and many times I tend to rock the boat of accepted perspectives.
Oddly enough, my monthly column is called "Reality Check" and often inspires
other readers to start their replies with "Mark Johnson is full of sh*t".

I'm not tring to stir the embers with any of this. I'm just offering my
perspectives on a topic that may not go with the more-popular flavor. I make
beaucoups of $ in MV and this other industry so I must be doing something
correct with my opinions and methods. Am I leaving $ on the table? Probably.
Are my missing skills easily identified for a direct financial gain once
acquired? Probably not. It's anyone's guess.

Thanks
Mark Johnson
- Original Message -
From: "Brian Leach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 7:37 AM
Subject: RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)


> Mark
>
> Please don't feel my reply to your 'DOS-like' post was an attack. It
> absolutely wasn't.
>
> I just get frustrated that we - as a community - don't seem willing to
> spread the word that this IS a vibrant and modern technology, but seem to
> glory (and sometims wallow) in its past. Sometimes it seems we are
> embarrassed to proclaim how good and up-to-date it really is, and take
> refuge in our history when we should be trying to reach out.
>
> If this was a new technology, we'd all be blogging or telling our friends
> about it.
>
> Perhaps that's the problem. Maybe we just need to pretend it's something
new
> and radical.
>
> But then, people love MySQL, because it is simple and works (yes, it's
also
> free but so are PostgreSQL, Firebird and a dozen others that don't attract
> anything like the following). People love PHP becaust it is simple and
works
> (and has easy-to-use database constructs, no data typing to worry about,
is
> fully cross platform, has no GUI - sound familiar ?).
>
> These are not sexy and 'new' technologies like Silverlight(1). They don't
> have vendors and huge marketing dollars behind them. But they have strong
> communities who feel passionately about them and who have spent years
> telling everyone about them. I love PHP, and if I have to choose a SQL
> database, yes I like MySQL. I recognize that they do their jobs well. The
> same is true for what we have to offer, and it would be nice to feel that
we
> could all be a little bit more proud - and less apologetic - about it.
>
>
> Brian
>
> (1) Actually, what IS new about Silverlight? Apart from the name and the
M$
> gloss?
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MAJ
> > Programming
> > Sent: 13 May 2007 00:22
> > To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> > Subject: Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)
> >
> > All:
> >
> > I'm no stranger to voicing my observed professional opinion
> > regarding MV (or other topics) to see where my opinions lie
> > with everyone else.
> ---
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> u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Dawn Wolthuis]

On 5/13/07, MAJ Programming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Brian/All:



Dawn's recent reply to this thread suggested a few new technologies that
I've never heard of. Silverlite and Firebird sound like car names. IMHO,


I don't think I mentioned those, so likely that was someone else, but
apologies if I mentioned anything not in common vocabulary, especially
anything hard to google.



I may be the odd man out in a bunch of this. In another completely different
industry where I am a published writer, give seminars and have an ounce of
national recognition, I am labeled as a curmudgeon with my rather pragmatic
opinions and many times I tend to rock the boat of accepted perspectives.
Oddly enough, my monthly column is called "Reality Check" and often inspires
other readers to start their replies with "Mark Johnson is full of sh*t".


Your name is just too common so that I get 2,500 hits googling for

mark-johnson reality-check

It might be staring me in the face, but if you could provide a URL,
that would be great, even if OT.  Thanks.  --dawn
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Anthony W. Youngman]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 
Dawn Wolthuis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

I can imagine two possible curriculae in which a textbook could work.
The area I have been researching might lend itself to a supplemental
text (far easier to get approved for a course than an actual text
book) within a Computer Science, Information Systems, Database-y
curriculum specifically for the purpose of showing that not all
databases are SQL-DBMS's (or deriving from the RDBMS wave). Simply
showing the video I mentioned is helpful to giving students who have
spent half a semester normalizing data a broader perspective. If your
book would fit into that curriculum, I have already given some thought
on how to pursue that, enough to decide it was not worth it to me, but
it might be to you and your publisher. Some of this has to do with
what the current reach and goals of your publisher are.


How do you gui-ize a database ENGINE. SQL isn't GUI, is it?

I'll probably try to write my "Why MV" on the train tomorrow. Celko 
wrote (ages ago) about several features he expected would be missing 
from MS Access. They weren't visualisable, so they wouldn't exist in a 
visual product. Seems he was correct!


The trouble is, programming etc is being dumbed down for the common man. 
The ?majority? of people are incapable of abstract thought. So any 
product that requires such thought (such as MV) is going to suffer :-(


Relational is easy to visualise - it's two-dimensional. But because it's 
so shallow :-) it makes it hard to model real problems. MV is much more 
flexible, powerful, and HARD TO VISUALISE. So the average "guy in the 
street" doesn't - CAN'T - get it :-(


As soon as you can get people to THINK and DESIGN, you should be able to 
get them to appreciate the power of MV. Trouble is, most people never 
get that far :-( and then you end up with horror databases :-)


Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Anthony W. Youngman]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, MAJ 
Programming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes

Dawn's recent reply to this thread suggested a few new technologies that
I've never heard of. Silverlite and Firebird sound like car names. IMHO,
I've heard of PHP as a flavor of the month, just like I heard of Perl and C#
a few years ago.


You know Thunderbird - the companion mail-client to the Firefox browser? 
It was originally supposed to be called Firebird - until the Firebird 
Database people complained.


Firebird might actually be the renamed dBase! I don't think it is, but 
iirc Borland had a dBase-type database, and when they no longer had any 
use for it, released it as Open Source, and that's Firebird. So if I'm 
right, it's a dBase-stable database, and actually very well known under 
another name.


Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Dawn Wolthuis]

On 5/13/07, Anthony W. Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, MAJ
Programming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>Dawn's recent reply to this thread suggested a few new technologies that
>I've never heard of. Silverlite and Firebird sound like car names. IMHO,
>I've heard of PHP as a flavor of the month, just like I heard of Perl and C#
>a few years ago.

You know Thunderbird - the companion mail-client to the Firefox browser?
It was originally supposed to be called Firebird - until the Firebird
Database people complained.

Firebird might actually be the renamed dBase!


Nope, it is Interbase.  Since I'm bootstraping a startup, which is how
interbase  (and many other products) started, I recently landed on
this page 
http://www.ibphoenix.com/main.nfs?a=ibphoenix&s=1179094845:1336476&page=ibp_ann_history1

Firebird is Interbase, although with major rewrites IIRC.  --dawn


I don't think it is, but
iirc Borland had a dBase-type database, and when they no longer had any
use for it, released it as Open Source, and that's Firebird. So if I'm
right, it's a dBase-stable database, and actually very well known under
another name.

Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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--
Dawn M. Wolthuis
Tincat Group, Inc.  tincat-group.com

Take and give some delight today
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RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Mike Randall]

Reading some of posts on this one, I had to throw my 2 cents in here.   I
agree with Brian's concept that MV *IS* a vibrant, modern technology capable
of doing all the things the other environments do.   For the past 3 years
now,  I have been exclusively doing .Net development with Oracle and SQL
backends.  This after 20 years as a MV developer.  

The real problem as I see it lies in marketing, tool sets and the skills of
those of us left still carrying the mantle.   After becoming quite well
versed in PL-SQL and Oracle,  I can say from experience that it is fairly
similar, probably more cumbersome, AND NOT GUI.   Avoiding the arguments of
the pros and cons of SQL databases vs MV(there are many and I've come to
appreciate the integrity levels of the SQL databases over MV),  the big
difference is how SQL Server/Oracle/Sybase etc. are marketed,  the
integration with modern tools and the lack of skill of many MV experts to
integrate the modern tools with MV.   

I think the days of developing MV with character interfaces are a complete
dead end.   Anyone doing any new development that way is providing a
disservice to their target audience.   It's building new obsolescence.
They are deemed old from the start and the 1st targets for replacement no
matter how functional they are.   The key today is n-tier design where your
options are where is your data, business logic and presentation.MV is
*DEAD* on the presentation side.  It can  however, be an excellent
repository for data and your business logic.   That's what the SQL guys do.
Data repositories and some business logic.   The real business stuff is in
Java or some .Net language and likely the same for the presentation layer.
MV and especially U2 can follow that exact model as the hooks have been
there for quite a while.  The fact that we don't as a community has
contributed to the continued attrition of our market.  

Mike Randall,  MCP

 
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Leach
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 7:38 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

Mark

Please don't feel my reply to your 'DOS-like' post was an attack. It
absolutely wasn't.

I just get frustrated that we - as a community - don't seem willing to
spread the word that this IS a vibrant and modern technology, but seem to
glory (and sometims wallow) in its past. Sometimes it seems we are
embarrassed to proclaim how good and up-to-date it really is, and take
refuge in our history when we should be trying to reach out. 
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RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Mike Randall]

Mark,

My comments to your post would be one of what is your real business?  I
think maximizing billable hours from a consulting standpoint is very
different than building viable software solutions for today's market.   I
have a couple of green screen guys myself that love their 10+ year old app
and are reluctant/too price sensitive to rush into changing it.  

What I get from each of them is increased need to do more 'modern' things
based on competitors or new business requirement where integration to other
things is a requirement (web and MS Office are the most common).   As the
new request come in,  I use the opportunity to modernize the environment
wherever possible.

I would think one way if my goal was generating hours and quite another if
my goal was developing software.  I would think that every MV software
company out there has dumped or is trying to dump their green screen.  If
they don't,  they flat out won't be able to sell it.



Mike Randall,  MCP


 
 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MAJ Programming
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 7:22 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

All:

I'm no stranger to voicing my observed professional opinion regarding MV (or
other topics) to see where my opinions lie with everyone else.

Perhaps I'm fortunate in that my 15 or so clients are pretty content with
their current MV systems, despite how far out of the 'norm' they may be.
While I speak for myself, I'm sure that the accumulated opinion of my
clients still bodes well for their green screens.

None are in technical businesses. A few are in manufacturing, publishing,
distribution and other tangible businesses.

Theirs is a gradual evolution in that new ideas may take a while before they
can be applied to their companies. As many will offer flames, I cannot
pepper every conversation with my clients on the latest and greatest
technologies. I've been down that road and it ain't as easy as many of the
others on this forum may expect.

This may throw down the gauntlet as many may feel that I'm dropping the ball
and not being the best for my clients. How can I be doing such a bad thing
for my clients when my average tenure with them is 10 years and I pretty
much remain until they get acquired or go out of business. Only 2 exist that
have retired their MV systems for something else.

I don't feel that I'm inhibiting my own growth as I truly wonder what
direction to invest my vocations in. I don't want to endeavor into the new
languages, especially java or net as I don't want to compete with every
22 year old fresh college graduate for those jobs.

I'm already making money with my VB project and if all goes well, I could
feasibly ramp up to this project generating 50% of my current income. While
VB may not be the latest and greatest, it is an example of the client
(customer) not really caring what's under the hood. They like my car.

Thanks
Mark Johnson
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[MAJ Programming]

I should have been a little clearer.

Dawn mentioned some other technologies that I didn't hear of. Then Brian
brought up Silverlite & Firebird.

Point still intended. There seems to be an endless stream of new 'languages'
that somehow cause one to feel left out.

Mark Johnson
- Original Message -
From: "Dawn Wolthuis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)


> On 5/13/07, MAJ Programming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Brian/All:
> 
> > Dawn's recent reply to this thread suggested a few new technologies that
> > I've never heard of. Silverlite and Firebird sound like car names. IMHO,
>
> I don't think I mentioned those, so likely that was someone else, but
> apologies if I mentioned anything not in common vocabulary, especially
> anything hard to google.
>
> 
> > I may be the odd man out in a bunch of this. In another completely
different
> > industry where I am a published writer, give seminars and have an ounce
of
> > national recognition, I am labeled as a curmudgeon with my rather
pragmatic
> > opinions and many times I tend to rock the boat of accepted
perspectives.
> > Oddly enough, my monthly column is called "Reality Check" and often
inspires
> > other readers to start their replies with "Mark Johnson is full of
sh*t".
>
> Your name is just too common so that I get 2,500 hits googling for
>
> mark-johnson reality-check
>
> It might be staring me in the face, but if you could provide a URL,
> that would be great, even if OT.  Thanks.  --dawn
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RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[David Jordan]

Hi Mark

I think you are misunderstanding the issue.  We all accept the character
based applications are efficient and effective, and why replace it with GUI
if there is no benefit.  

The issue comes down to whether the Glass is half empty or half full.  The
facts are the same it is just how we look at it.  We can look at mv as
historic or we can put a different spin on it and look at it as leading
technology.  

The concern is that with young people, the look at character base
applications as antiquated and this causes them to have a perspective that
the mv environment is old Hat.  You are only looking at mv as a character
based applicaton, yet this is only a small component of the MV environment.
MultiValue can do everything that these kids are doing with SQL Server and
other RDBMS and more, so why would young people not want to learn about
MultiValue.  They may not want to learn about developing character based
applications, but they will love all the other features of MultiValue.

To put a different perspective on multivalue, we are saying separate the
User Interface from the business rules engine.
1. User Interface  - Character or GUI or Web (Uv Basic, .Net,
Java,...
2. Business Rules Engine - Database, Stored Procedures/Subroutines.

When you look at the Business Rules Engine
Oracle, SQL Server, DB2 they all have a character based Interface
Ie the SQL COMMAND line  "SELECT col1, Col2 FROM Table ..

So why is mv antiqauted because it has tcl, it is not different to any other
databases.

In summary.
  
1. There is nothing wrong with having character based applications.
2. Young people will want to learn mv because it offers more than the other
database environments for BUSINESS RULES DEVELOPMENT. (The backend of the
application)
3. Functionality Offered
1.Microsoft offers 2 facilities
1. A database SQL SERVER
2. A client interface development Product
2. Multivalue is better it offers 3 Facilities
1. A database  
2. A Character Based Application Development Tool
3. Interface to other Client Tools .Net, Java, ...
4. Query Languages
1. RDBMS provide SQL
2. Multivalue Provides SQL and an ENGLISH Query Language.

All that everyone is asking is to look at MultiValue in a different light,
not change what you are doing.


Regards
David Jordan
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Gabriel Green]

I'm 25 and was raised on the Mac/Amiga, then got into UNIXand used
Windows (reluctantly, until Win2k came out) since version 3.0 and various
other platforms...

When I first encountered our MV application I thought "this looks like an
ancient piece of crap".  I changed positions to IT manager shortly after
being hired and quickly learned the power and flexibility for quickly
writing and customizing powerful business software--things which would take
much much longer in other environments--and the bland ADDS viewpoint
interface no longer bothered me.  Too many business applications are filled
with bloat, fancy graphics, and hard coded feature sets rather than real
functionality or flexibility.  We have our brilliant software engineers to
thank for the app we use but they chose MV for a reason.

To badly re-phrase a cliche, it's the data, stupid. (Not referring to you of
course).  Some applications simply do not need a GUI, even in this day and
age.  Particularly business applications.  I was a student at UC Berkeley, I
personally would much rather take a MV class than the awful CS 61 series

It is my understanding with AccuTerm and other tools the end user can see a
GUI anyway; I believe there is one available or in development for the
product we use but since we still have dumb terminals in the field we can't
use it just yet.

I must be the exception rather than the rule but as I become more learned in
actual MV programming I would be happy to write articles outlining why it
captured my interest and how to best raise awareness of this well-kept
secret and get other geeks from my generation interested in carrying the
torch.

Gabe

On 5/11/07, MAJ Programming <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any college courses for MV.
>
> I have 2 kids, aged 20 & 17. When the 20 yr old was in 7th grade (7 years
> ago) they were exposed to Microsoft Office items like Word, Excel,
> PowerPoint, Publisher and even Access. Likewise for the 17 yr old more
> recently.
>
> From that point forward, the kids are incredibly immersed in everything
> GUI/windows/internet. The endless hours of IMing, downloading, surfing and
> everything else GUI seems to point forward in the right direction.
>
> Thus, imagine a college student considering such courses as Cisco
> Certification, MCSE and other highly visible entities also considering an
> MV
> course if it were offered. Upon the first day they would quickly drop the
> course as MV offers neither an entertainable/WYSIWYG environment, a
> familiar
> data structure (to those weened on everything MS), a practical purpose for
> the individual nor any seemingly useful employment opportunities.
>
> Sorry for the dark cloud but I can't imagine even the most purposeful
> young
> adult considering MV. I teach the Computer merit badge in the Boy Scouts
> and
> even that course outline is heavily MS. I even took the brightest kid in
> my
> class, a senior at a local High-Tech (Gifted & Talented) high school and
> fired up one of my D3 systems to show him how I make a living.
>
> I spent way too much time trying to make analogies in MV to what I know he
> knows about MS Access. This kid is Cisco Certified from his school and
> capable of understanding the MV model. But since it was different, it was
> an
> uphill battle to illustrate some of its superior features.
>
> I saw the look in his eyes that he was being polite in letting me speak
> but
> he was clearly not interested in something that looks like DOS. While I
> know
> that there are many 4GL's and GUI overlays for MV, it still is a huge
> amount
> of command-line stuff.
>
> We are the best kept secret in the computer business. Virtually zero
> people
> have heard of Pick, MV or any of the old or present flavors. Yes,
> everyone's
> heard of IBM but that's about it. Honeywell makes air conditioners,
> Mcdonnel
> Douglass makes airplanes and Sanyo makes consumer electronics.
>
> I believe there is a delicate balance between proficient MV programmers
> and
> MV environments. The newer MV programmers may have gotten thrust into
> supporting a MV environment when their employers added that slight
> responsibility to their otherwise IT (network/Ms/unix) list.
>
> I'm sure actual mileage may differ but not by much. I'm glad I'm an
> independent programmer as a few of my full-time MV programmer
> acquaintenances are now looking at their MV jobs disappearing with each MV
> system being replaced. Hopefully they are professionally versed in other
> environments as I am endeavouring as well.
>
> My 3 cents
> Mark Johnson
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Charles Barouch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 

Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Eugene Perry]

I can certainly understand that if his client does not want gui etc then he 
should do as his client wants.


Since he is not developing a software package for market he has no need to 
do otherwise.


I have worked with 2 companies in the last year that are doing gui front end 
and pick based back ends. One

is using java for the front end and the other is using coldfusion.

I also found it interesting that the CTO for IBM came out recently and said 
that client-server is dead and that
we should be moving to server side software.  That does sound to me like 
what Pick has done for years.


Eugene
- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Randall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 11:12 PM
Subject: RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)



Reading some of posts on this one, I had to throw my 2 cents in here.   I
agree with Brian's concept that MV *IS* a vibrant, modern technology 
capable

of doing all the things the other environments do.   For the past 3 years
now,  I have been exclusively doing .Net development with Oracle and SQL
backends.  This after 20 years as a MV developer.

The real problem as I see it lies in marketing, tool sets and the skills 
of

those of us left still carrying the mantle.   After becoming quite well
versed in PL-SQL and Oracle,  I can say from experience that it is fairly
similar, probably more cumbersome, AND NOT GUI.   Avoiding the arguments 
of

the pros and cons of SQL databases vs MV(there are many and I've come to
appreciate the integrity levels of the SQL databases over MV),  the big
difference is how SQL Server/Oracle/Sybase etc. are marketed,  the
integration with modern tools and the lack of skill of many MV experts to
integrate the modern tools with MV.

I think the days of developing MV with character interfaces are a complete
dead end.   Anyone doing any new development that way is providing a
disservice to their target audience.   It's building new obsolescence.
They are deemed old from the start and the 1st targets for replacement no
matter how functional they are.   The key today is n-tier design where 
your

options are where is your data, business logic and presentation.MV is
*DEAD* on the presentation side.  It can  however, be an excellent
repository for data and your business logic.   That's what the SQL guys 
do.

Data repositories and some business logic.   The real business stuff is in
Java or some .Net language and likely the same for the presentation layer.
MV and especially U2 can follow that exact model as the hooks have been
there for quite a while.  The fact that we don't as a community has
contributed to the continued attrition of our market.

Mike Randall,  MCP




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Leach
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 7:38 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

Mark

Please don't feel my reply to your 'DOS-like' post was an attack. It
absolutely wasn't.

I just get frustrated that we - as a community - don't seem willing to
spread the word that this IS a vibrant and modern technology, but seem to
glory (and sometims wallow) in its past. Sometimes it seems we are
embarrassed to proclaim how good and up-to-date it really is, and take
refuge in our history when we should be trying to reach out.
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[MAJ Programming]

I'll show my cards:

I maintain existing MV environments. I have roughly 15 active clients with
another 30 that have come and gone.

The average length of these relationships is 8-10 years.

Except for one, I did not create nor write their original application. I
inherited an existing application set and am the "Current Cook in the
Kitchen", keeping the ball rolling.

All but 2 of my clients are orphaned from their original VAR. For those with
current VAR relationships, I merely provide supplemental output programming
that doesn't alter the VAR items.

The majority of my clients are private businesses, under 100M US. Their
flavors range from Microdata, Mentor, AP-Pro, D3-NT, D3-AIX, UD-AIX,
UD-Solaris, UV-AIX, UV-Sco and one is an MS-Access app.

Their industries range from manu, dist, publications, security, theater
management, HVAC, Public Housing and memberships. Their user counts range
from single to 60 users, with the median being around 30.

None are technology companies. The publication ones do integrate MV output
for desktop publishing (Quark) for eventual publication.

I am not a programmer working for a single end user (been there, done that).
I am not anyone's IT guy as most have network managers or outside IT
consultants. I can't even spell TCP/IP.

I am not a programmer working for a vertical market VAR with software to
sell. I don't sell software.I sell solutions. Just me and
(look at your hands) my 10 employees.

None of my client's non-VAR software is capable of being marketted to
another company. It's either too old or too customized for that individual
client.

2 of my D3 clients had dictated that all new programs are done in Accuterm's
GUI environment. Most others don't see the need and widely accept green
screens.

I do hundreds of custom CSV/HTML downloads/uploads, data conversions, ftp
automations, EDI processing, web up/down loads and other external data
sharing.

Virtually all of my clients non-IT people think java means coffee, a perl is
what you get from a clam and ASP means do it now.

Let the flames begin
Mark Johnson

- Original Message -
From: "Mike Randall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 11:37 PM
Subject: RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)


> Mark,
>
> My comments to your post would be one of what is your real business?  I
> think maximizing billable hours from a consulting standpoint is very
> different than building viable software solutions for today's market.   I
> have a couple of green screen guys myself that love their 10+ year old app
> and are reluctant/too price sensitive to rush into changing it.
>
> What I get from each of them is increased need to do more 'modern' things
> based on competitors or new business requirement where integration to
other
> things is a requirement (web and MS Office are the most common).   As the
> new request come in,  I use the opportunity to modernize the environment
> wherever possible.
>
> I would think one way if my goal was generating hours and quite another if
> my goal was developing software.  I would think that every MV software
> company out there has dumped or is trying to dump their green screen.  If
> they don't,  they flat out won't be able to sell it.
>
>
>
> Mike Randall,  MCP
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MAJ Programming
> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 7:22 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)
>
> All:
>
> I'm no stranger to voicing my observed professional opinion regarding MV
(or
> other topics) to see where my opinions lie with everyone else.
>
> Perhaps I'm fortunate in that my 15 or so clients are pretty content with
> their current MV systems, despite how far out of the 'norm' they may be.
> While I speak for myself, I'm sure that the accumulated opinion of my
> clients still bodes well for their green screens.
>
> None are in technical businesses. A few are in manufacturing, publishing,
> distribution and other tangible businesses.
>
> Theirs is a gradual evolution in that new ideas may take a while before
they
> can be applied to their companies. As many will offer flames, I cannot
> pepper every conversation with my clients on the latest and greatest
> technologies. I've been down that road and it ain't as easy as many of the
> others on this forum may expect.
>
> This may throw down the gauntlet as many may feel that I'm dropping the
ball
> and not being the best for my clients. How can I be doing such a bad thing
> for my clients when my average tenure with them is 10 years and I pretty
> much remai

Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Moderator]

All,
  I have the surreal experience of having to punt a thread which I 
started. Please continue this topic and it's parent on U2-Community. If 
you are not registered for U2-Community, follow this link and all will 
be made clear: http://listserver.u2ug.org/.

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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[will]

Thanks for the stats. Are most of those clients in CA?

Will

MAJ Programming wrote:

I'll show my cards:

I maintain existing MV environments. I have roughly 15 active clients with
another 30 that have come and gone.

The average length of these relationships is 8-10 years.

Except for one, I did not create nor write their original application. I
inherited an existing application set and am the "Current Cook in the
Kitchen", keeping the ball rolling.

All but 2 of my clients are orphaned from their original VAR. For those with
current VAR relationships, I merely provide supplemental output programming
that doesn't alter the VAR items.

The majority of my clients are private businesses, under 100M US. Their
flavors range from Microdata, Mentor, AP-Pro, D3-NT, D3-AIX, UD-AIX,
UD-Solaris, UV-AIX, UV-Sco and one is an MS-Access app.

Their industries range from manu, dist, publications, security, theater
management, HVAC, Public Housing and memberships. Their user counts range
from single to 60 users, with the median being around 30.

None are technology companies. The publication ones do integrate MV output
for desktop publishing (Quark) for eventual publication.

I am not a programmer working for a single end user (been there, done that).
I am not anyone's IT guy as most have network managers or outside IT
consultants. I can't even spell TCP/IP.

I am not a programmer working for a vertical market VAR with software to
sell. I don't sell software.I sell solutions. Just me and
(look at your hands) my 10 employees.

None of my client's non-VAR software is capable of being marketted to
another company. It's either too old or too customized for that individual
client.

2 of my D3 clients had dictated that all new programs are done in Accuterm's
GUI environment. Most others don't see the need and widely accept green
screens.

I do hundreds of custom CSV/HTML downloads/uploads, data conversions, ftp
automations, EDI processing, web up/down loads and other external data
sharing.

Virtually all of my clients non-IT people think java means coffee, a perl is
what you get from a clam and ASP means do it now.

Let the flames begin
Mark Johnson

- Original Message -
From: "Mike Randall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 11:37 PM
Subject: RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)


  

Mark,

My comments to your post would be one of what is your real business?  I
think maximizing billable hours from a consulting standpoint is very
different than building viable software solutions for today's market.   I
have a couple of green screen guys myself that love their 10+ year old app
and are reluctant/too price sensitive to rush into changing it.

What I get from each of them is increased need to do more 'modern' things
based on competitors or new business requirement where integration to


other
  

things is a requirement (web and MS Office are the most common).   As the
new request come in,  I use the opportunity to modernize the environment
wherever possible.

I would think one way if my goal was generating hours and quite another if
my goal was developing software.  I would think that every MV software
company out there has dumped or is trying to dump their green screen.  If
they don't,  they flat out won't be able to sell it.



Mike Randall,  MCP






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MAJ Programming
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 7:22 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

All:

I'm no stranger to voicing my observed professional opinion regarding MV


(or
  

other topics) to see where my opinions lie with everyone else.

Perhaps I'm fortunate in that my 15 or so clients are pretty content with
their current MV systems, despite how far out of the 'norm' they may be.
While I speak for myself, I'm sure that the accumulated opinion of my
clients still bodes well for their green screens.

None are in technical businesses. A few are in manufacturing, publishing,
distribution and other tangible businesses.

Theirs is a gradual evolution in that new ideas may take a while before


they
  

can be applied to their companies. As many will offer flames, I cannot
pepper every conversation with my clients on the latest and greatest
technologies. I've been down that road and it ain't as easy as many of the
others on this forum may expect.

This may throw down the gauntlet as many may feel that I'm dropping the


ball
  

and not being the best for my clients. How can I be doing such a bad thing
for my clients when my average tenure with them is 10 years and I pretty
much remain until they get acquired or go out of business. Only 2 exist


that
  

have retired their MV systems for something else.

I don&#x

Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[MAJ Programming]

None in CA. East Coast.
- Original Message -
From: "will" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 12:10 PM
Subject: Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)


> Thanks for the stats. Are most of those clients in CA?
>
> Will
>
> MAJ Programming wrote:
> > I'll show my cards:
> >
> > I maintain existing MV environments. I have roughly 15 active clients
with
> > another 30 that have come and gone.
> >
> > The average length of these relationships is 8-10 years.
> >
> > Except for one, I did not create nor write their original application. I
> > inherited an existing application set and am the "Current Cook in the
> > Kitchen", keeping the ball rolling.
> >
> > All but 2 of my clients are orphaned from their original VAR. For those
with
> > current VAR relationships, I merely provide supplemental output
programming
> > that doesn't alter the VAR items.
> >
> > The majority of my clients are private businesses, under 100M US. Their
> > flavors range from Microdata, Mentor, AP-Pro, D3-NT, D3-AIX, UD-AIX,
> > UD-Solaris, UV-AIX, UV-Sco and one is an MS-Access app.
> >
> > Their industries range from manu, dist, publications, security, theater
> > management, HVAC, Public Housing and memberships. Their user counts
range
> > from single to 60 users, with the median being around 30.
> >
> > None are technology companies. The publication ones do integrate MV
output
> > for desktop publishing (Quark) for eventual publication.
> >
> > I am not a programmer working for a single end user (been there, done
that).
> > I am not anyone's IT guy as most have network managers or outside IT
> > consultants. I can't even spell TCP/IP.
> >
> > I am not a programmer working for a vertical market VAR with software to
> > sell. I don't sell software.I sell solutions. Just me
and
> > (look at your hands) my 10 employees.
> >
> > None of my client's non-VAR software is capable of being marketted to
> > another company. It's either too old or too customized for that
individual
> > client.
> >
> > 2 of my D3 clients had dictated that all new programs are done in
Accuterm's
> > GUI environment. Most others don't see the need and widely accept green
> > screens.
> >
> > I do hundreds of custom CSV/HTML downloads/uploads, data conversions,
ftp
> > automations, EDI processing, web up/down loads and other external data
> > sharing.
> >
> > Virtually all of my clients non-IT people think java means coffee, a
perl is
> > what you get from a clam and ASP means do it now.
> >
> > Let the flames begin
> > Mark Johnson
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Mike Randall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: 
> > Sent: Sunday, May 13, 2007 11:37 PM
> > Subject: RE: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)
> >
> >
> >
> >> Mark,
> >>
> >> My comments to your post would be one of what is your real business?  I
> >> think maximizing billable hours from a consulting standpoint is very
> >> different than building viable software solutions for today's market.
I
> >> have a couple of green screen guys myself that love their 10+ year old
app
> >> and are reluctant/too price sensitive to rush into changing it.
> >>
> >> What I get from each of them is increased need to do more 'modern'
things
> >> based on competitors or new business requirement where integration to
> >>
> > other
> >
> >> things is a requirement (web and MS Office are the most common).   As
the
> >> new request come in,  I use the opportunity to modernize the
environment
> >> wherever possible.
> >>
> >> I would think one way if my goal was generating hours and quite another
if
> >> my goal was developing software.  I would think that every MV software
> >> company out there has dumped or is trying to dump their green screen.
If
> >> they don't,  they flat out won't be able to sell it.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Mike Randall,  MCP
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MAJ
Programming
> >> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 7:22 PM
> >> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> >> Subject: Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)
> 

Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[brian]

All

With this thread in mind, I thought this link was apposite:

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6653119.stm


Brian
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Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[Moderator]

END OF THREAD ON U2-USERS
Please continue on U2-Community.

- Charles Barouch, Moderator
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RE: Articles (MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board))

[David Jordan]

Hi Gabe

The U2UG are very interested to get articles about why people use multivalue
in there environment.  Particularly you being a fresh face and a convert,
your insight would be welcome.  Managers need information like this to
justify to their boards and management why they should keep with U2 and from
a practical and business case rather that an emotive position.

Anyone else with ideas are also welcome to send me articles
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

It does not have to be a pultzer prize, we are a user group, not selling
magazines.  We want News, Ideas, Success Stories, Technical tips, you name
we have a place for it. (Well most of it)

Regards 



David Jordan
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[OT] Re: MV Books (Formerly: [U2] Incubator - News from the board)

[brian]

Mark

That reminds me:

Completely aside from this conversation thread, I wouldn't steer clear of VB6 
for your new project. It's no longer supported, the companies who produce 
components for it have moved on to .Net and are becoming more difficult to 
find, and from what we've seen at the site I'm working at today, it doesn't 
work reliably under Vista.

Sorry.

If you want something that works, and has stayed working for 10+ years without 
a rewrite, take a serious look at Delphi. It's faster, better and more stable, 
and not subject to this months' whims or the latest marketing fad. You might 
even like it!

If only I had a pound for everyone who said to me 'We liked Delphi but chose VB 
because it will always be there'. Wrong. VB is dead, replaced with .Net which 
is very heavily based on Delphi. And Delphi is (still) alive and kicking. Oh, 
and there is also FreePascal - a very good open source Delphi clone - that is a 
cross platform alternative.

Brian
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