Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Hey, Maybe we could take all of us out of work Pickies and have them teach college class in pick so at least there would be programmers for Datatel and the college book stores. The we would have the students buying Pick Books for classes and get the volume up in the book sales Dave R. eFax (815)4259364 -- Original Message -- From: Jon Sisk j...@jes.com To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Still, good ideas, but how many would like their Pocket Guide to be the size of a normal book, versus 3-3/4x6? If that's what you want, look for the Desk Reference Edition of the Pick Pocket Guide, which we produced as part of The Pick Library from Tab Books, Inc, a division of McMillan. It has the same content as the Fifth Edition of the spiral bound one. Here's our Pick Pubs Database entry: http://jes.com/mvpubs/ppg4dr.html http://jes.com/mvpubs/ppg4dr.html j. Lloyd Cottrell wrote: I would talk to Brian Leach about how he publishes his. If I'm not mistaken they are printed on demand. I have bought a few from him, and they are very good quality. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - http://jes.com On-demand 1 on 1 private training for all MultiValue platforms and languages. -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Pick-Pocket-Guide-tp27982214p27995951.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Yes, yes - we definitely need some college classes offered in pick! -Dianne On 3/31/2010 2:26 AM, Dave R wrote: Hey, Maybe we could take all of us out of work Pickies and have them teach college class in pick so at least there would be programmers for Datatel and the college book stores. The we would have the students buying Pick Books for classes and get the volume up in the book sales Dave R. eFax (815)4259364 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
I'm not sure we're ever going to see college courses offered for Pick, however I learned about hashing and linked frames in a college course. It wasn't a class in Pick just in Data Structures. We just have to learn how to market pick as a hashed database using continuously resizeable linked structures. Essentially at the upper level the Pick database is just a set of blocks with pointers, that's your real file, the contents are not material to that level of abstraction. Hashing is then a way of overlaying that layer with a deeper layer of meaning. We completely avoid the need for a jump table to the contents, as all the frames are direct access, then you walk the frame in that lower layer of abstraction. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
I'm not sure we're ever going to see college courses offered for Pick, however I learned about hashing and linked frames in a college course. There was a US college teaching with QM. I don't know if they still are. The ability to put the entire system on a USB stick is very attractive in this situation. Martin Phillips, Ladybridge Systems ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide [not-secure]
I have a copy of the Reality Pocket Guide (brown cover) which I think was for 4.2 or some such. Clive ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide [not-secure]
Somewhere in the back of my mind is a little voice saying you can't trademark already existing words That might be wrong, but I'm sure there's a suit about it somewhere. Anyone? Buehler? In a message dated 3/28/2010 3:38:10 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, j...@jes.com writes: Dick, Bill Walsh and I sat around bouncing around some potential names, since Microdata had a lock on English. Wonder how they went about trademarking that one. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide [not-secure]
You do remember correctly - I always thought it was a mistake to let them get away with taking the name! Susan Lynch F. W. Davison Company, Inc, - Original Message - From: MAJ Programming majprogramm...@comcast.net To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: 03/28/2010 1:30 AM Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide [not-secure] Only because you mention lawsuit: I recall Pick Systems calling their query language Access, before Microsoft came out with Access. Do I recall correctly? Mark Johnson - Original Message - From: Hennessey, Mark F. mark.hennes...@ct.gov To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide [not-secure] Heh - name it Genius and you invite a lawsuit from Apple... -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David A. Green Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 4:26 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide I say we name it Genius so we can all feel smarter when we go to work! GeniusDB GeniusQuery GeniusCode (Not GeniusBasic that's an oxymoron) Etc. Hey! We've all just been elevated to Genius Programmers! David A. Green (480) 813-1725 DAG Consulting -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of fft2...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 12:42 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide In a message dated 3/23/2010 4:14:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, br...@brianleach.co.uk writes: So suggestions welcomed. I'm opining that we need a name that is NOT an existing word or acronym of anything else. Something brand new and fresh and unique so no more false positives. Will ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
From: MAJ Programming ...I'm surprised TG hasn't flamed anyone and suggested that it get moved to another thread. I stray one degree off center and he flames me pretty fast. I guess he was going along for this ride as well. Mark, I enjoy productive discussions about technology or about making progress in the community. I enjoy learning and conveying information. This thread helped to put focus onto related topics that are of interest to many of us. But I do get bent when value-add resellers try to solve modern problems with 1980's solutions, because then the clients leave for other platforms and we ALL lose. Related to this thread - note that the systems you work with today have features far beyond what you find in your two-decade old Pick Pocket Guide. Perhaps it's time to start reading current documentation. Is that the kind of flame you were hoping for? ;) T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide [not-secure]
As a matter of fact, the Pick Pocket Guide formalized the names Access and Pick/BASIC. Dick, Bill Walsh and I sat around bouncing around some potential names, since Microdata had a lock on English. Wonder how they went about trademarking that one. j. Susan Lynch wrote: You do remember correctly - I always thought it was a mistake to let them get away with taking the name! Susan Lynch F. W. Davison Company, Inc, - Original Message - From: MAJ Programming majprogramm...@comcast.net To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: 03/28/2010 1:30 AM Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide [not-secure] Only because you mention lawsuit: I recall Pick Systems calling their query language Access, before Microsoft came out with Access. Do I recall correctly? Mark Johnson - Original Message - From: Hennessey, Mark F. mark.hennes...@ct.gov To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide [not-secure] Heh - name it Genius and you invite a lawsuit from Apple... -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David A. Green Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 4:26 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide I say we name it Genius so we can all feel smarter when we go to work! GeniusDB GeniusQuery GeniusCode (Not GeniusBasic that's an oxymoron) Etc. Hey! We've all just been elevated to Genius Programmers! David A. Green (480) 813-1725 DAG Consulting -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of fft2...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 12:42 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide In a message dated 3/23/2010 4:14:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, br...@brianleach.co.uk writes: So suggestions welcomed. I'm opining that we need a name that is NOT an existing word or acronym of anything else. Something brand new and fresh and unique so no more false positives. Will ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - http://jes.com On-demand 1 on 1 private training for all MultiValue platforms and languages. -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Pick-Pocket-Guide-tp27982214p28063150.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide [not-secure]
Only because you mention lawsuit: I recall Pick Systems calling their query language Access, before Microsoft came out with Access. Do I recall correctly? Mark Johnson - Original Message - From: Hennessey, Mark F. mark.hennes...@ct.gov To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide [not-secure] Heh - name it Genius and you invite a lawsuit from Apple... -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David A. Green Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 4:26 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide I say we name it Genius so we can all feel smarter when we go to work! GeniusDB GeniusQuery GeniusCode (Not GeniusBasic that's an oxymoron) Etc. Hey! We've all just been elevated to Genius Programmers! David A. Green (480) 813-1725 DAG Consulting -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of fft2...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 12:42 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide In a message dated 3/23/2010 4:14:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, br...@brianleach.co.uk writes: So suggestions welcomed. I'm opining that we need a name that is NOT an existing word or acronym of anything else. Something brand new and fresh and unique so no more false positives. Will ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Yes, typical Pickie. I had a lot of stuff that I was able to replace. I had some photos that can not be replaced. It has taken me roughly 1 month to get over the anger I had towards those who did this, especially their stupidity in stealing the briefcase thinking it contained a computer. I am not looking for any sympathy or lessons (read: TG). I am just expressing my sadness for my briefcase and hopefully no-one else would have to go through what I have. I had highlighted certain parts of the JES book of it that help me for the more rare commands that aren't typed that often. No-one can memorize all of those options. I have been away from this email for around a week and started to read the replies in reverse date order. I was surprised at how many and how deviated the original thread became. What was a simple request for an extra copy of one of these books became a long winded tired thread regarding what form of MVQL etc should encompass everything etc, etc. This seems to be an annual renaming convention, trying to get all the wagons to circle together. I'm surprised TG hasn't flamed anyone and suggested that it get moved to another thread. I stray one degree off center and he flames me pretty fast. I guess he was going along for this ride as well. Anyway, Gwen has come through (thanks) and I'll be able to get the book back. Mark Johnson - Original Message - From: George Gallen ggal...@wyanokegroup.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide You know, this is a true example of a typical pickie. He gets his briefcase stolen, and all he cares about is his Pick manual!! Should be an example to all of ussniff. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of MAJ Programming Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 12:59 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide My briefcase was stolen and in it was one of these small JES Pick Pocket Guides. While I have access to all of the docs I need via the internet, I still refer to this for some efforts. With no distraction, could anyone donate or offer to sell me one of these. I don't recall the vintage of the one I had but it wasn't Microdata (or another flavor) specific. Probably good old solid R90. Thanks in advance, Mark Johnson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Glad to hear you scored a replacement. If we ever meet in person, I will sign it for you. But you will have to do the highlighting part. The whole reason I wrote it in the first place was that I couldn't remember them either. Cheers, j. http://jes.com jes.com MAJ Programming wrote: ... I am not looking for any sympathy or lessons (read: TG). I am just expressing my sadness for my briefcase and hopefully no-one else would have to go through what I have. I had highlighted certain parts of the JES book of it that help me for the more rare commands that aren't typed that often. No-one can memorize all of those options. ... ... Mark Johnson - Original Message - From: George Gallen ggal...@wyanokegroup.com To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide You know, this is a true example of a typical pickie. He gets his briefcase stolen, and all he cares about is his Pick manual!! Should be an example to all of ussniff. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of MAJ Programming Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 12:59 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide My briefcase was stolen and in it was one of these small JES Pick Pocket Guides. While I have access to all of the docs I need via the internet, I still refer to this for some efforts. With no distraction, could anyone donate or offer to sell me one of these. I don't recall the vintage of the one I had but it wasn't Microdata (or another flavor) specific. Probably good old solid R90. Thanks in advance, Mark Johnson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - http://jes.com On-demand 1 on 1 private training for all MultiValue platforms and languages. -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Pick-Pocket-Guide-tp27982214p28057233.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
My bad on the mid-cap drop; sorry. For TCL/ECL, maybe mvCommand or mvControl? I didn't say it will be easy or even worthwhile for the experts; but, I think it must help in some way to be known as the gurus in this market (better billable rates, makes you more desirable as a consultant, etc.). If there are five authors (for five platforms) and they each write 20% of the book and that book has the potential of selling 5 times more (for five platforms instead of one), essentially, you are producing a book for 1/5 of the cost. I know we can really work these numbers so in the end it will cost nothing to write [like the days we work in a year]. I know it's still a tough sell, but, maybe even include some ad-supported areas within the book (as long as it doesn't compromise objectivity concerning the platforms). I think the major platform vendors should also contribute to get this done as it directly benefits them the most. Recently, I have moved away from the MultiValue market [not by choice]. I must say that I'd have a difficult time in getting any 'buy-in' though on what I still consider an incredibly powerful database due to almost a complete lack of visibility. How do you promote a technology that hasn't had a book based on it in quite a long time? If the platform vendors, tool and integration companies, etc. still believe that they have a good story to tell, it's time to ante up and place your bets already. Regards, Jim -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Clifton Oliver Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 1:19 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide Well, the terminology issue is something we (Spectrum magazine in particular) can promote since we are already committed to promoting the term MultiValue (note the mid-cap casing) and the MultiValue Logo. We just add such terms to our Style and Usage Guide and use them in the magazine. Side note: Is there any interest in us having our Style and Usage Guide available online? I'm interested in hearing what folks would find an acceptable term for TCL/ECL/etc. As to the idea of of a generic book, groups of experts, etc., that sounds like a fame and glory no profit Open Source kind of thing. A lot of the experts you might want to attract are dudes and dudettes trying to make a living. That goes back to some of Tony's comments. How could that be made worthwhile for said experts to forgo revenue producing time to produce a non-profit book? Considering some other Open Source documentation efforts, I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just challenging everyone to present detailed ideas for how it could be made to work. Regards, Clif On Mar 23, 2010, at 6:09 PM, James Canale, Jr. wrote: I think it would be great do something like this. Multivalue Query [mvQuery] Multivalue Basic [mvBasic] Multivalue PROC [mvPROC] I also think it would be great if someone could write a piece of a book that is very generic (keep it at a 20,000 foot view) which covers each major topic area. Once complete, a group of experts-at-large in the various flavors add platform specific details. When complete, one or more of the know-it-alls [like some of the gurus on this list] combine the common parts, while leaving the unique areas in place. Basically, a wiki to book transformation. Many of the books sold today have two, three, and even more authors (especially the technically oriented books). Something like this could reduce the work required (just doing a piece of the whole) and increase the potential market (supports most platforms) for sales. I see a lot of talent on this list that can pull something like this off, it just needs a great leader (and I see many of them here too). Regards, Jim -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Clifton Oliver Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 6:39 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide In Spectrum magazine, we use the term MultiValue Basic to talk about the programming language in articles that are not platform specific. I put it in the style and usage guide for just the reasons being brought up here. I don't see any reason not to add other MultiValue generic terms. MultiValue Query comes to mind. I'm open to suggestions about that and other terms. Post them here, or if you'd rather not, just send them to me at edi...@intl-spectrum.com (or my regular e-mail address). Regards, Clif -- Clifton Oliver, Managing Editor International Spectrum Magazine Spectrum Tel: +1 720 259 1356 Clif's Direct Tel: +1 619 460 5678 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Ahh we could discuss this at length. Firstly i agree Books are not uniquely sourced by product providers, and they shouldn't be - I think the difference is that there is a marketplace for books from these technologies hence why O'Reilly et al are there. When Microsoft first released Silverlight - the first books were from Microsoft themselves, the others quickly followed. I have had a similar experience with the Amazon web services, their own book by their product manager was an excellent overview, but i then had to wait for a bigger book to come out from one of the mainstream publishers. With MV, there is little marketplace, the big publishers are not going to get involved. I say rocket are ideally placed because they have a team of respected consultants, who (i may be wrong here) may not be 100% utilised and could be funded to produce literature as a project maybe in conjunction with some outside resources. How many MV vars, or consultants have teams of consultants ? - if Brian or John were to write a book at 2 days a week for 6 months thats 20% or their fee earning time for the year gone, I doubt they would recoup that. If rocket do the same it's a much smaller percentage, and in the long run may indeed help licence sales. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: 23 March 2010 04:51 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide From: Tony Gravagno ... just like Linux, SQL Server, PHP, Java, C#, Excel, and hundreds of other technical topics From: Symeon Breen If you look at the other technologies you mention- the actual providers of these technologies are leaders in also providing books the providers are the best suited to producing such literature, and in my opinion should be taking the lead in this... My respected colleague, I must disagree. My extemporaneous sampling above mentions three Microsoft products and three non-Microsoft products about which Microsoft Press (I believe) does not have any publications. Many books are indeed published by Microsoft Press but take a look at your local store bookshelves and you'll find dozens of other publishers including Wrox, Apress, Manning, McGraw-Hill, IDG, O'Reilly, SAMS, and Addison-Wesley. Books are not uniquely sourced by product providers, and they shouldn't be. Who is the provider charged with writing books for open source software? We need books specifically because software authors are generally poor writers, and software providers generally don't invest in quality documentation. Put it back in their hands because they are best suited? The world would be a terrible place if software companies figured out that they could provide poor documentation and then make even more money as the unique source of for-fee books that explain their products. I also disagree that the DBMS software providers specifically are the best suited to producing product literature. I want documentation from my software vendors, but then I want them to continue working on the software, not books. The process for creating books is different than for product docs, and you'll get commentary about products from an independent author that you won't get from the software provider. One of the reasons why I said initially that this community is anti-book is that I've heard the same sort of commentary from other MV colleagues, that the DBMS vendors should be providing books, where you rarely get this sort of comment about any other product. Look at your local bookstore shelves and see how many books are written by the software provider - precious few. No, pushing the publication of books onto the DBMS providers simply goes nowhere. Don't bother. It's been tried before. DBMS vendors don't want to write books and they simply don't. They won't even accept help for their docs - both Clif and I have offered to help the DBMS vendors with their docs and after giving the concept some lip service these initiatives never go anywhere. Even if one indignantly maintains that they still should write books, it's a moot point - they won't. So we need to pick up from there and move forward. Best, T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
When Microsoft first released Silverlight - the first books were from Microsoft themselves, the others quickly followed. You have just highlighted the essential difference between books and software.. Software is a single sale: you buy that product from the manufacturer and don't buy a rival product to do the same thing. That's not true with books - to take the Silverlight example, I have half a dozen different books on Silverlight on my shelves, each offering a different perspective and level of detail. Personally I've always found the microsoft press books rushed and full of errors, but I still buy them for the few useful nuggets they will hold, generally before the better written ones come out :) But all these things go hand in hand: We need new blood if we are going to support authors - since the hairy old MV developers won't be the ones buying books even though they can help bring their skills up to date with the new features in the products or up to date techniques. (It's the old 'this technology is easy so I shouldn't have to pay out for what I can work out by myself' argument - even though it's cheaper in the long run to get the advice rather than sacrifice paid time to do it yourself. See also: 'Not invented here syndrome'). But to attract that new blood, we need the publications and educational materials in place to tell them about the technology in the first place. Which is why the incubator project at the U2UG is such an important piece in this discussion. And why I will inevitably keep banging on about it for the next 12 months - you have been warned grin. Brian ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
As much as we can't seem to get away from referring to TCL, how about MVTCL or mvTCL! Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 03:16:06 -0400 From: jcan...@optonline.net To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide My bad on the mid-cap drop; sorry. For TCL/ECL, maybe mvCommand or mvControl? I didn't say it will be easy or even worthwhile for the experts; but, I think it must help in some way to be known as the gurus in this market (better billable rates, makes you more desirable as a consultant, etc.). If there are five authors (for five platforms) and they each write 20% of the book and that book has the potential of selling 5 times more (for five platforms instead of one), essentially, you are producing a book for 1/5 of the cost. I know we can really work these numbers so in the end it will cost nothing to write [like the days we work in a year]. I know it's still a tough sell, but, maybe even include some ad-supported areas within the book (as long as it doesn't compromise objectivity concerning the platforms). I think the major platform vendors should also contribute to get this done as it directly benefits them the most. Recently, I have moved away from the MultiValue market [not by choice]. I must say that I'd have a difficult time in getting any 'buy-in' though on what I still consider an incredibly powerful database due to almost a complete lack of visibility. How do you promote a technology that hasn't had a book based on it in quite a long time? If the platform vendors, tool and integration companies, etc. still believe that they have a good story to tell, it's time to ante up and place your bets already. Regards, Jim -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Clifton Oliver Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 1:19 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide Well, the terminology issue is something we (Spectrum magazine in particular) can promote since we are already committed to promoting the term MultiValue (note the mid-cap casing) and the MultiValue Logo. We just add such terms to our Style and Usage Guide and use them in the magazine. Side note: Is there any interest in us having our Style and Usage Guide available online? I'm interested in hearing what folks would find an acceptable term for TCL/ECL/etc. As to the idea of of a generic book, groups of experts, etc., that sounds like a fame and glory no profit Open Source kind of thing. A lot of the experts you might want to attract are dudes and dudettes trying to make a living. That goes back to some of Tony's comments. How could that be made worthwhile for said experts to forgo revenue producing time to produce a non-profit book? Considering some other Open Source documentation efforts, I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just challenging everyone to present detailed ideas for how it could be made to work. Regards, Clif On Mar 23, 2010, at 6:09 PM, James Canale, Jr. wrote: I think it would be great do something like this. Multivalue Query [mvQuery] Multivalue Basic [mvBasic] Multivalue PROC [mvPROC] I also think it would be great if someone could write a piece of a book that is very generic (keep it at a 20,000 foot view) which covers each major topic area. Once complete, a group of experts-at-large in the various flavors add platform specific details. When complete, one or more of the know-it-alls [like some of the gurus on this list] combine the common parts, while leaving the unique areas in place. Basically, a wiki to book transformation. Many of the books sold today have two, three, and even more authors (especially the technically oriented books). Something like this could reduce the work required (just doing a piece of the whole) and increase the potential market (supports most platforms) for sales. I see a lot of talent on this list that can pull something like this off, it just needs a great leader (and I see many of them here too). Regards, Jim -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Clifton Oliver Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 6:39 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide In Spectrum magazine, we use the term MultiValue Basic to talk about the programming language in articles that are not platform specific. I put it in the style and usage guide for just the reasons being brought up here. I don't see any reason not to add other MultiValue generic terms. MultiValue Query comes to mind. I'm open to suggestions about that and other terms. Post them here, or if you'd rather not, just send them to me at edi...@intl-spectrum.com (or my regular e-mail address). Regards, Clif -- Clifton Oliver, Managing
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
From: Tony Gravagno The world would be a terrible place if software companies figured out that they could provide poor documentation and then make even more money as the unique source of for-fee books that explain their products. Game software companies figured that out a long time ago, I'm afraid. Even before a game hits the stores, you'll find strategy guides, hint guides, walkthroughs, you name it... John M. Horn | Solutions Engineer, Advisor Sr. | HealthLink | 314-925-6050 | jh...@healthlink.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information or otherwise protected by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide [not-secure]
Heh - name it Genius and you invite a lawsuit from Apple... -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of David A. Green Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 4:26 PM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide I say we name it Genius so we can all feel smarter when we go to work! GeniusDB GeniusQuery GeniusCode (Not GeniusBasic that's an oxymoron) Etc. Hey! We've all just been elevated to Genius Programmers! David A. Green (480) 813-1725 DAG Consulting -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of fft2...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 12:42 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide In a message dated 3/23/2010 4:14:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, br...@brianleach.co.uk writes: So suggestions welcomed. I'm opining that we need a name that is NOT an existing word or acronym of anything else. Something brand new and fresh and unique so no more false positives. Will ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
I'd like to also suggest nSQL and mvSQL Why not say SQL ? And then add n for nested or mv for multi-value And we can just say this is our BRAND of SQL it's SQL with added features. In a message dated 3/24/2010 7:30:47 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ron_hutchi...@hotmail.com writes: As much as we can't seem to get away from referring to TCL, how about MVTCL or mvTCL! Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 03:16:06 -0400 From: jcan...@optonline.net To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide My bad on the mid-cap drop; sorry. For TCL/ECL, maybe mvCommand or mvControl? I didn't say it will be easy or even worthwhile for the experts; but, I think it must help in some way to be known as the gurus in this market (better billable rates, makes you more desirable as a consultant, etc.). If there are five authors (for five platforms) and they each write 20% of the book and that book has the potential of selling 5 times more (for five platforms instead of one), essentially, you are producing a book for 1/5 of the cost. I know we can really work these numbers so in the end it will cost nothing to write [like the days we work in a year]. I know it's still a tough sell, but, maybe even include some ad-supported areas within the book (as long as it doesn't compromise objectivity concerning the platforms). I think the major platform vendors should also contribute to get this done as it directly benefits them the most. Recently, I have moved away from the MultiValue market [not by choice]. I must say that I'd have a difficult time in getting any 'buy-in' though on what I still consider an incredibly powerful database due to almost a complete lack of visibility. How do you promote a technology that hasn't had a book based on it in quite a long time? If the platform vendors, tool and integration companies, etc. still believe that they have a good story to tell, it's time to ante up and place your bets already. Regards, Jim -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Clifton Oliver Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 1:19 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide Well, the terminology issue is something we (Spectrum magazine in particular) can promote since we are already committed to promoting the term MultiValue (note the mid-cap casing) and the MultiValue Logo. We just add such terms to our Style and Usage Guide and use them in the magazine. Side note: Is there any interest in us having our Style and Usage Guide available online? I'm interested in hearing what folks would find an acceptable term for TCL/ECL/etc. As to the idea of of a generic book, groups of experts, etc., that sounds like a fame and glory no profit Open Source kind of thing. A lot of the experts you might want to attract are dudes and dudettes trying to make a living. That goes back to some of Tony's comments. How could that be made worthwhile for said experts to forgo revenue producing time to produce a non-profit book? Considering some other Open Source documentation efforts, I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just challenging everyone to present detailed ideas for how it could be made to work. Regards, Clif On Mar 23, 2010, at 6:09 PM, James Canale, Jr. wrote: I think it would be great do something like this. Multivalue Query [mvQuery] Multivalue Basic [mvBasic] Multivalue PROC [mvPROC] I also think it would be great if someone could write a piece of a book that is very generic (keep it at a 20,000 foot view) which covers each major topic area. Once complete, a group of experts-at-large in the various flavors add platform specific details. When complete, one or more of the know-it-alls [like some of the gurus on this list] combine the common parts, while leaving the unique areas in place. Basically, a wiki to book transformation. Many of the books sold today have two, three, and even more authors (especially the technically oriented books). Something like this could reduce the work required (just doing a piece of the whole) and increase the potential market (supports most platforms) for sales. I see a lot of talent on this list that can pull something like this off, it just needs a great leader (and I see many of them here too). Regards, Jim -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Clifton Oliver Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 6:39 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide In Spectrum magazine, we use the term MultiValue Basic to talk about the programming language in articles that are not platform specific. I put it in the style and usage
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
At the risk of stating the obvious, I think the following is the best 'centrist' approach for the common query commands: MVQL - Multi Value Query Language. As for the database resource - it's almost a non-issue any more who the provider is since most have 'flavors' that mimic the major variants. This generic primer would be the documentation that most interests the potential reader. System internals would come later and that would be something that we all obtain from the vendor. Free code is an excellent way to get others to embrace MV. We frequently borough code from PHP or other code sharing sites and cobble it into our basic routine if we're doing something new. If we could get more of this going, and offer the 'pocket guides' there, we'd garner more respect and affection. I know we have a couple wiki's out there - lets improve these and get a generic MV code foundry up. I must express my debt of gratitude to Jon also. He graciously allowed me to republish parts of his work when I taught a Programmers class for clients of Pick Professionals in St Louis. Fascinating thread. I've only read thru 1/2 of it so forgive me if any of my suggestions are redundant. -Baker This communication, its contents and any file attachments transmitted with it are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential proprietary information. Access by any other party without the express written permission of the sender is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this communication in error you may not copy, distribute or use the contents, attachments or information in any way. Please destroy it and contact the sender. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Brilliant! I have had a terrible time explaining to users why the term TCL exists, at least since the last time I was using an ADDS Viewpoint as my I/O device. Dan McGrath wrote: Hi Clif, I'd be interesting in reading. I write the occasional piece and probably should use more encompassing terms to enhance future search-ability and to promote the database style. Regarding ECL/TCL/etc, since I'm normally in Unix/Linux land, I normally think of them as shells, which brings MultiValue Shell (MVSH) to mind. -- Jeff Schasny - Denver, Co, USA jschasny at gmail dot com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Because its not SQL. To many big differences between the purpose, theory, and operation of the two fft2...@aol.com wrote: I'd like to also suggest nSQL and mvSQL Why not say SQL ? And then add n for nested or mv for multi-value And we can just say this is our BRAND of SQL it's SQL with added features. In a message dated 3/24/2010 7:30:47 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ron_hutchi...@hotmail.com writes: As much as we can't seem to get away from referring to TCL, how about MVTCL or mvTCL! Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 03:16:06 -0400 From: jcan...@optonline.net To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide My bad on the mid-cap drop; sorry. For TCL/ECL, maybe mvCommand or mvControl? I didn't say it will be easy or even worthwhile for the experts; but, I think it must help in some way to be known as the gurus in this market (better billable rates, makes you more desirable as a consultant, etc.). If there are five authors (for five platforms) and they each write 20% of the book and that book has the potential of selling 5 times more (for five platforms instead of one), essentially, you are producing a book for 1/5 of the cost. I know we can really work these numbers so in the end it will cost nothing to write [like the days we work in a year]. I know it's still a tough sell, but, maybe even include some ad-supported areas within the book (as long as it doesn't compromise objectivity concerning the platforms). I think the major platform vendors should also contribute to get this done as it directly benefits them the most. Recently, I have moved away from the MultiValue market [not by choice]. I must say that I'd have a difficult time in getting any 'buy-in' though on what I still consider an incredibly powerful database due to almost a complete lack of visibility. How do you promote a technology that hasn't had a book based on it in quite a long time? If the platform vendors, tool and integration companies, etc. still believe that they have a good story to tell, it's time to ante up and place your bets already. Regards, Jim -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Clifton Oliver Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 1:19 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide Well, the terminology issue is something we (Spectrum magazine in particular) can promote since we are already committed to promoting the term MultiValue (note the mid-cap casing) and the MultiValue Logo. We just add such terms to our Style and Usage Guide and use them in the magazine. Side note: Is there any interest in us having our Style and Usage Guide available online? I'm interested in hearing what folks would find an acceptable term for TCL/ECL/etc. As to the idea of of a generic book, groups of experts, etc., that sounds like a fame and glory no profit Open Source kind of thing. A lot of the experts you might want to attract are dudes and dudettes trying to make a living. That goes back to some of Tony's comments. How could that be made worthwhile for said experts to forgo revenue producing time to produce a non-profit book? Considering some other Open Source documentation efforts, I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just challenging everyone to present detailed ideas for how it could be made to work. Regards, Clif On Mar 23, 2010, at 6:09 PM, James Canale, Jr. wrote: I think it would be great do something like this. Multivalue Query [mvQuery] Multivalue Basic [mvBasic] Multivalue PROC [mvPROC] I also think it would be great if someone could write a piece of a book that is very generic (keep it at a 20,000 foot view) which covers each major topic area. Once complete, a group of experts-at-large in the various flavors add platform specific details. When complete, one or more of the know-it-alls [like some of the gurus on this list] combine the common parts, while leaving the unique areas in place. Basically, a wiki to book transformation. Many of the books sold today have two, three, and even more authors (especially the technically oriented books). Something like this could reduce the work required (just doing a piece of the whole) and increase the potential market (supports most platforms) for sales. I see a lot of talent on this list that can pull something like this off, it just needs a great leader (and I see many of them here too). Regards, Jim -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Clifton Oliver Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 6:39 PM
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Lloyd Thanks! Yes, I use Lulu because the volumes are so small and since they are US based - as is most of the readership - they can dispatch directly to the client rather than my having to dispatch them from here. The downside is the lead time for production. But 'windbag' or not Tony [grin], don't underestimate the amount of work required to create these - they take literally months of effort and if I were looking on a purely commercial basis they would be a non-starter for that reason. I write the books because I enjoy it, and I because I love this technology. The sales are a bonus. BUT it does lead into another soap box of mine: if you were searching for a book on this technology, what do you search under? The fact that there are no generic names for this market space, other than the 'multivalue' name that only participants understand, is one of my pet hates. Everyone understands the name SQL even though different variants are largely incompatible. Yet we can't even agree on one, single, sensible name for our query language: it's even different between the two U2 products! So if, for example, you wanted a book on the query language, are you looking under: Retrieve, UniQuery, AQL, ACCESS, ENGLISH, INFORM, JQL ... Yes it's fine to have all these trademarked variants - just like TSQL and SQL*PLUS - but the fact that after all these years the vendors still cannot bash their heads together to come up with a single, overarching and generic term just frustrates the h*ll of out me. And the other pieces are no better (BASIC, UniBasic, UniVerse Basic, DATABASIC, DATA/BASIC, PROC or PROVERB ...) I've raised this with the various vendors several times over the years, and it has always falled on deaf ears. But until we can start to just refer to our technology sensibly, it is always going to be an uphill struggle reaching beyond our community boundaries. Brian -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Lloyd Cottrell Sent: 23 March 2010 3:01 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide I would talk to Brian Leach about how he publishes his. If I'm not mistaken they are printed on demand. I have bought a few from him, and they are very good quality. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2763 - Release Date: 03/22/10 07:33:00 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Hi, I couldn't agree more. It seems to me like the vendors deaf ears are their own worst enemy - each one clinging onto their own uniqueness, all be it by name. It would probably help if any of them actually appeared to market their products outside of Spectrumhaving said that, I do not read much trade press so I may be missing something. But my general assumption is that most of their business comes from word of mouth. I also find the naming and terminology a nightmare. It is not a problem anymore as I don't have to deal with unknowledgeable agents much, but years ago I remember having to engage in long discussions with agents, explaining to them what the term Pick or Multivalue generally refers to in order to even get them to submit my CV to their client. Maybe they were looking for a pick developer but at the time my CV mentioned Reality or UniVerse - agents question - do you have any Pick experience? Here in Germany, there is no point in even mentioning Pick or Multivalue. You won't get anywhere. The terms Multidimensional, Extended Relational and Nested Relational are the only terms which will take the conversation anywhere useful over here; otherwise they will probably just think you are part of a strange cult (grin). Either we can sit here and moan about the vendors, or we can take action ourselves, as we clearly care about this topic more than the vendors do. Schöne Grüße Glenn -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Brian Leach Sent: Dienstag, 23. März 2010 10:34 To: lbc7...@gmail.com; 'U2 Users List' Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide Lloyd Thanks! Yes, I use Lulu because the volumes are so small and since they are US based - as is most of the readership - they can dispatch directly to the client rather than my having to dispatch them from here. The downside is the lead time for production. But 'windbag' or not Tony [grin], don't underestimate the amount of work required to create these - they take literally months of effort and if I were looking on a purely commercial basis they would be a non-starter for that reason. I write the books because I enjoy it, and I because I love this technology. The sales are a bonus. BUT it does lead into another soap box of mine: if you were searching for a book on this technology, what do you search under? The fact that there are no generic names for this market space, other than the 'multivalue' name that only participants understand, is one of my pet hates. Everyone understands the name SQL even though different variants are largely incompatible. Yet we can't even agree on one, single, sensible name for our query language: it's even different between the two U2 products! So if, for example, you wanted a book on the query language, are you looking under: Retrieve, UniQuery, AQL, ACCESS, ENGLISH, INFORM, JQL ... Yes it's fine to have all these trademarked variants - just like TSQL and SQL*PLUS - but the fact that after all these years the vendors still cannot bash their heads together to come up with a single, overarching and generic term just frustrates the h*ll of out me. And the other pieces are no better (BASIC, UniBasic, UniVerse Basic, DATABASIC, DATA/BASIC, PROC or PROVERB ...) I've raised this with the various vendors several times over the years, and it has always falled on deaf ears. But until we can start to just refer to our technology sensibly, it is always going to be an uphill struggle reaching beyond our community boundaries. Brian -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Lloyd Cottrell Sent: 23 March 2010 3:01 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide I would talk to Brian Leach about how he publishes his. If I'm not mistaken they are printed on demand. I have bought a few from him, and they are very good quality. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2763 - Release Date: 03/22/10 07:33:00 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users Legal Disclaimer: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed or by their designee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are on notice that any distribution of this message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this message ___ U2-Users mailing
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Maybe instead of waiting for the vendors to agree, we, the community should come up with our own name for the environment. IIRC, multivalue was not thought up by a vendor. Wasn't it our past editor of Spectrum who came up with that name? W.J. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
'twas indeed. It's a timely point, because the new user group board are going to be discussing our projects for the coming year and introductory materials/sample applications and such like are very much in the frame. So nomenclature is something we will need to address if we're not going to confuse people from the very start. From that point of view, it's a pity that mvBase and mvEnterprise exist otherwise we could carry the 'mv' naming further as the standard, but they will be too heavily associated with those products. The Pick name has fallen out of favour, and in any case largely describes the operating system which is viewed very much as a historic platform. So suggestions welcomed. If people want to email me suggestions off-list, then I'll collate them together and put them back to the list for discussion/vote (rather than let it turn into the usual ramblings grin). Regards Brian -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of fft2...@aol.com Sent: 23 March 2010 10:22 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide Maybe instead of waiting for the vendors to agree, we, the community should come up with our own name for the environment. IIRC, multivalue was not thought up by a vendor. Wasn't it our past editor of Spectrum who came up with that name? W.J. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2763 - Release Date: 03/22/10 19:44:00 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Clif: Sounds like a Better and Better submission! :-) Bill Clifton Oliver said the following on 3/22/2010 8:21 PM: Well, when the best known providers can't even get correct documentation in their manuals or examples that actually work, one wonders how suited they are to producing such literature. I'm not arguing against your point that they *should* be the leaders--like Sun, Microsoft, etc.--in literature. But really, when their own manuals have gross errors that have gone uncorrected for 5 to 10 years, who would trust them? Several years ago, I offered one of the major providers that I would re-write their course material for free just to make sure we had something to teach from that was at least correct. No charge. They weren't interested. Go figure. Regards, Clif On Mar 22, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Symeon Breen wrote: There is none of this in the MV world - the providers are the best suited to producing such literature, and in my opinion should be taking the lead in this ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Common thread winding through this post... At the TigerLogic Conference a few months ago, Susie Siegesmund was a key speaker. Many of us joked/suspected/(hoped?) that TL had a Rocket in their pocket. But Susie's excellent presentation really underscored both a desire and a need for collaboration amongst the MV DBMS providers. Susie and Rick Koe (TL CEO and primary stockholder) stood together to talk about such collaboration. I was reminded of the Spectrum Manufacturers' Association of the 80's. We need something like SMA again, but while Susie and Rick openly recognize the problems I'm not convinced they're willing to dedicate resources to fixing the problems. We need an independent agency to coordinate such efforts, driving the DBMS vendors to take action toward their own best interests. As Brian suggests below that U2UG will be taking on various projects, I'm thinking such UG time might be better spent on helping to coordinate the efforts of others - UG's for other DBMS platforms and perhaps a new SMA-ish oversight group. This, as a separate effort from U2-specific endeavors. Similarly, rather than the DBMS vendors themselves coordinating resources for platform marketing, books, etc, I think their best approach would be to foster the creation of a new SMA-ish group, which would in turn drive the DBMS vendors to do more. From: Brian Leach ... the new user group board are going to be discussing our projects for the coming year and introductory materials/sample applications and such like are very much in the frame. It's a shame that U2UG is the only real global MV group around. Efforts as described by Brian should be shared by those who support other MV platforms - share the burden, share the benefits. I don't think U2UG should be driving toward introductory/sample materials that are entirely U2-centric and not more generic and inclusive of the other Pick/Prime platforms. Sure, this is all about U2 here but a user group that focuses only on U2 (for something like this) would be as guilty of self-serving efforts as the DBMS vendors. Yes, of course we need better intro material for U2 but if the rest of the MV market is still suffering from a dearth of information then U2 vendors will continue to face uphill sales battles. So collaboration in the name of mutual expansion (more like self-preservation) is important. With no other central entity or authority I think this is a project that should be undertaken by Spectrum, a neutral, for-profit business, with the same motivations as the rest of us, with co-op funding from DBMS providers and application vendors alike. So nomenclature is something we will need to address if we're not going to confuse people from the very start. I agree that nomenclature is important but I would put less emphasis on it. If anything, let's go back to roots rather than proprietary branding: the platform is derived from Pick and Prime, let's use the terms from those platforms as the common base, acknowledging that all MV platforms have their own names for the same concept, but not trying to coerce users or vendors to conform to some new standard. The commonly accepted name of the platform is now MultiValue. Let's not, yet again, try to come up with something new. It works, go with it. Pick your battles carefully because there will be many of them, and some not worth fighting. From that point of view, it's a pity that mvBase and mvEnterprise exist otherwise we could carry the 'mv' naming further as the standard, but they will be too heavily associated with those products. mvEnterprise is almost a dead product. mvBase is surprisingly not dead but the base is too small to worry about conflicts in nomenclature. The Pick name has fallen out of favour, and in any case largely describes the operating system which is viewed very much as a historic platform. Again, in creating something new there would be a stigma of an unknown. Under a MultiValue banner, the names Pick and Prime are fine as historical references. We can't run away from history and attempting to do so will only elicit suspicion. Proudly acknowledging 40 years of history in a world plagued by techno-ADD and paradigm fads might actually be a good approach. Tony Gravagno, mvWindbag remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Tony As always you make some good points. 1/ It's not the term MultiValue I have a problem with - that we should continue to support since it already has a meaning and a presence, and one worth building on. For one thing, MVDBMS is a nice abbreviation! It's the terminology used within that, that is the problem: for example, I want to put some web pages out giving an introduction to the query language. What do I call it? If I use the word 'RetrieVe' that alienates every other variant: if I mention all of them, it just gets silly. Even writing purely for U2, the fact that there are two names - RetrieVe and UniQuery -from the same manufacturer for two variants that to all intents and purposes do the same thing, is confusing for anyone from outside. That's the level where we need some consensus. 2/ Naming IS important, because people search. And it has been one of the battles in getting people to understand the reach of the technolgy, that with the names being totally fragmented any search gives a disproportionately shrunken view of this data model. 3/ Should the U2UG be doing this type of work? - well, how many years have we waited for the vendors to produce introductory materials aimed at encouraging new users other than those migrating from within the existing multivalue pool, or quality samples that really catch the cutting edge of these products? Let me see - forever. So if they are not going to do it, there is a group of people here who can (though whether we will be decide on the outcome of our board meeting tonight when we will be discussing our focus for this year). 4/ Unfortunately the U2UG has to be seen to be focussed on the U2 product line and not on MultiValue in general - otherwise we simply won't get any support and buy-in from Rocket. Bottom line. 5/ But that doesn't mean we can't have materials that point out how the model works, and that point out the areas of advantage over other database models in more general terms. That's a balance we will need to strike, and carefully. You know my personal views.. Brian ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Looking at it from the point of view of a potential new adopter. The word Pick can refer to many things. Not specific enough. Multivalued is also kind of vague. Lots of things have multiple values. I always use the term nested relational database. It establishes that it is a relational database, which is reassuring. But nested differentiates it and suggests additional functionality. Tools would be UniSql, UniQuery, UniBasic, etc. My 2 cents. Charles Shaffer Senior Analyst NTN-Bower Corporation ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
In a message dated 3/23/2010 4:14:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, br...@brianleach.co.uk writes: So suggestions welcomed. I'm opining that we need a name that is NOT an existing word or acronym of anything else. Something brand new and fresh and unique so no more false positives. Will ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Maybe you could add Ultimate, Reality, Climax, and Evolution to the mix to help in the search efforts. Seriously, looking for Pick books on Ebay is a good way to find guitar picks dropped at concerts. As to SMA, the only thing they ever agreed on was to use my Pick Pocket Guide as a baseline for what defined R-series Pick. Well, that and lunch. It had until that time been used as a check-off list by the Licensees to determine when they had a working platform, even before adopting it as the official standard. I think you have a better chance of unifying the American Political System than the remaining Pick-Nelson and Prime descendant players. With all possible sincerity, j. Tony Gravagno-3 wrote: Common thread winding through this post... At the TigerLogic Conference a few months ago, Susie Siegesmund was a key speaker. Many of us joked/suspected/(hoped?) that TL had a Rocket in their pocket. But Susie's excellent presentation really underscored both a desire and a need for collaboration amongst the MV DBMS providers. Susie and Rick Koe (TL CEO and primary stockholder) stood together to talk about such collaboration. I was reminded of the Spectrum Manufacturers' Association of the 80's. We need something like SMA again, but while Susie and Rick openly recognize the problems I'm not convinced they're willing to dedicate resources to fixing the problems. We need an independent agency to coordinate such efforts, driving the DBMS vendors to take action toward their own best interests. As Brian suggests below that U2UG will be taking on various projects, I'm thinking such UG time might be better spent on helping to coordinate the efforts of others - UG's for other DBMS platforms and perhaps a new SMA-ish oversight group. This, as a separate effort from U2-specific endeavors. Similarly, rather than the DBMS vendors themselves coordinating resources for platform marketing, books, etc, I think their best approach would be to foster the creation of a new SMA-ish group, which would in turn drive the DBMS vendors to do more. From: Brian Leach ... the new user group board are going to be discussing our projects for the coming year and introductory materials/sample applications and such like are very much in the frame. It's a shame that U2UG is the only real global MV group around. Efforts as described by Brian should be shared by those who support other MV platforms - share the burden, share the benefits. I don't think U2UG should be driving toward introductory/sample materials that are entirely U2-centric and not more generic and inclusive of the other Pick/Prime platforms. Sure, this is all about U2 here but a user group that focuses only on U2 (for something like this) would be as guilty of self-serving efforts as the DBMS vendors. Yes, of course we need better intro material for U2 but if the rest of the MV market is still suffering from a dearth of information then U2 vendors will continue to face uphill sales battles. So collaboration in the name of mutual expansion (more like self-preservation) is important. With no other central entity or authority I think this is a project that should be undertaken by Spectrum, a neutral, for-profit business, with the same motivations as the rest of us, with co-op funding from DBMS providers and application vendors alike. So nomenclature is something we will need to address if we're not going to confuse people from the very start. I agree that nomenclature is important but I would put less emphasis on it. If anything, let's go back to roots rather than proprietary branding: the platform is derived from Pick and Prime, let's use the terms from those platforms as the common base, acknowledging that all MV platforms have their own names for the same concept, but not trying to coerce users or vendors to conform to some new standard. The commonly accepted name of the platform is now MultiValue. Let's not, yet again, try to come up with something new. It works, go with it. Pick your battles carefully because there will be many of them, and some not worth fighting. From that point of view, it's a pity that mvBase and mvEnterprise exist otherwise we could carry the 'mv' naming further as the standard, but they will be too heavily associated with those products. mvEnterprise is almost a dead product. mvBase is surprisingly not dead but the base is too small to worry about conflicts in nomenclature. The Pick name has fallen out of favour, and in any case largely describes the operating system which is viewed very much as a historic platform. Again, in creating something new there would be a stigma of an unknown. Under a MultiValue banner, the names Pick and Prime are fine as historical references. We can't run away from history and attempting to do so will only elicit suspicion. Proudly acknowledging 40 years of history in a world plagued by
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
In a message dated 3/23/2010 10:41:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, br...@brianleach.co.uk writes: 1/ It's not the term MultiValue I have a problem with - that we should continue to support since it already has a meaning and a presence, and one worth building on. For one thing, MVDBMS is a nice abbreviation! It's the terminology used within that, that is the problem: for example, I want to put some web pages out giving an introduction to the query language. What do I call it? If I use the word 'RetrieVe' that alienates every other variant: if I mention all of them, it just gets silly. Even writing purely for U2, the fact that there are two names - RetrieVe and UniQuery -from the same manufacturer for two variants that to all intents and purposes do the same thing, is confusing for anyone from outside. That's the level where we need some consensus. Call it what it is MultiValue Query Language MVQL Each vendor has branded the MultiValue Query Language, but the core components have not changed or whatever. W.J. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
In a message dated 3/23/2010 11:18:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time, charles_shaf...@ntn-bower.com writes: I always use the term nested relational database. It establishes that it is a relational database, which is reassuring. But nested differentiates it and suggests additional functionality. Tools would be UniSql, UniQuery, UniBasic, etc. To genericize (is that a word) NRSQL, NRQuery or NRBASIC So we have two competing nomenclatures. NR for nested relational or MV for multivalue and then you attach the Basic, QL, DBMS or whatever to those. That sort of naming *would* make our products unique in search terms and in minds. Will Johnson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
I say we name it Genius so we can all feel smarter when we go to work! GeniusDB GeniusQuery GeniusCode (Not GeniusBasic that's an oxymoron) Etc. Hey! We've all just been elevated to Genius Programmers! David A. Green (480) 813-1725 DAG Consulting -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of fft2...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 12:42 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide In a message dated 3/23/2010 4:14:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, br...@brianleach.co.uk writes: So suggestions welcomed. I'm opining that we need a name that is NOT an existing word or acronym of anything else. Something brand new and fresh and unique so no more false positives. Will ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
I say we name it Genius so we can all feel smarter when we go to work! That's a lot to live up to. Charles Shaffer Senior Analyst NTN-Bower Corporation ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
So, one of us will write Genius for Dummies? Bruce M Neylon Health Care Management Group From: David A. Green dgr...@dagconsulting.com To: 'U2 Users List' u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Date: 03/23/2010 04:27 PM Subject:Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide Sent by:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org I say we name it Genius so we can all feel smarter when we go to work! GeniusDB GeniusQuery GeniusCode (Not GeniusBasic that's an oxymoron) Etc. Hey! We've all just been elevated to Genius Programmers! David A. Green (480) 813-1725 DAG Consulting -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of fft2...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 12:42 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide In a message dated 3/23/2010 4:14:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, br...@brianleach.co.uk writes: So suggestions welcomed. I'm opining that we need a name that is NOT an existing word or acronym of anything else. Something brand new and fresh and unique so no more false positives. Will ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Genius for Dummies. You're killing me. You know what would be nice. A UniBasic back-end with a corresponding JavaScript Toolkit, or library for the client-side that would create a dynamic, seamless, powerful, yet simple to use environment for displaying tables, lookups, autocomplete lists, forms, and calling validation routines, and update routines with minimal setup and minimal coding. At an affordable price. U2 back-ends are a really good fit for web apps, but right now it is either too complex or expensive. Charles Shaffer Senior Analyst NTN-Bower Corporation ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
When I was still working at U2, we met with Mike Ruane of Revelation Software to discuss projects of common interest to both companies. At the time I had hoped there was a chance of greater collaboration then what transpired after I left. It's a shame that more wasn't possible then, but I suppose Big Blue had something to do with that... LeRoy Sent from my iPhone 3Gs On 23 Mar 2010, at 6:46 PM, Tony Gravagno 3xk547...@sneakemail.com wrote: Common thread winding through this post... At the TigerLogic Conference a few months ago, Susie Siegesmund was a key speaker. Many of us joked/suspected/(hoped?) that TL had a Rocket in their pocket. But Susie's excellent presentation really underscored both a desire and a need for collaboration amongst the MV DBMS providers. Susie and Rick Koe (TL CEO and primary stockholder) stood together to talk about such collaboration. I was reminded of the Spectrum Manufacturers' Association of the 80's. We need something like SMA again, but while Susie and Rick openly recognize the problems I'm not convinced they're willing to dedicate resources to fixing the problems. We need an independent agency to coordinate such efforts, driving the DBMS vendors to take action toward their own best interests. As Brian suggests below that U2UG will be taking on various projects, I'm thinking such UG time might be better spent on helping to coordinate the efforts of others - UG's for other DBMS platforms and perhaps a new SMA-ish oversight group. This, as a separate effort from U2-specific endeavors. Similarly, rather than the DBMS vendors themselves coordinating resources for platform marketing, books, etc, I think their best approach would be to foster the creation of a new SMA-ish group, which would in turn drive the DBMS vendors to do more. From: Brian Leach ... the new user group board are going to be discussing our projects for the coming year and introductory materials/sample applications and such like are very much in the frame. It's a shame that U2UG is the only real global MV group around. Efforts as described by Brian should be shared by those who support other MV platforms - share the burden, share the benefits. I don't think U2UG should be driving toward introductory/sample materials that are entirely U2-centric and not more generic and inclusive of the other Pick/Prime platforms. Sure, this is all about U2 here but a user group that focuses only on U2 (for something like this) would be as guilty of self-serving efforts as the DBMS vendors. Yes, of course we need better intro material for U2 but if the rest of the MV market is still suffering from a dearth of information then U2 vendors will continue to face uphill sales battles. So collaboration in the name of mutual expansion (more like self-preservation) is important. With no other central entity or authority I think this is a project that should be undertaken by Spectrum, a neutral, for-profit business, with the same motivations as the rest of us, with co-op funding from DBMS providers and application vendors alike. So nomenclature is something we will need to address if we're not going to confuse people from the very start. I agree that nomenclature is important but I would put less emphasis on it. If anything, let's go back to roots rather than proprietary branding: the platform is derived from Pick and Prime, let's use the terms from those platforms as the common base, acknowledging that all MV platforms have their own names for the same concept, but not trying to coerce users or vendors to conform to some new standard. The commonly accepted name of the platform is now MultiValue. Let's not, yet again, try to come up with something new. It works, go with it. Pick your battles carefully because there will be many of them, and some not worth fighting. From that point of view, it's a pity that mvBase and mvEnterprise exist otherwise we could carry the 'mv' naming further as the standard, but they will be too heavily associated with those products. mvEnterprise is almost a dead product. mvBase is surprisingly not dead but the base is too small to worry about conflicts in nomenclature. The Pick name has fallen out of favour, and in any case largely describes the operating system which is viewed very much as a historic platform. Again, in creating something new there would be a stigma of an unknown. Under a MultiValue banner, the names Pick and Prime are fine as historical references. We can't run away from history and attempting to do so will only elicit suspicion. Proudly acknowledging 40 years of history in a world plagued by techno-ADD and paradigm fads might actually be a good approach. Tony Gravagno, mvWindbag remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
In Spectrum magazine, we use the term MultiValue Basic to talk about the programming language in articles that are not platform specific. I put it in the style and usage guide for just the reasons being brought up here. I don't see any reason not to add other MultiValue generic terms. MultiValue Query comes to mind. I'm open to suggestions about that and other terms. Post them here, or if you'd rather not, just send them to me at edi...@intl-spectrum.com (or my regular e-mail address). Regards, Clif -- Clifton Oliver, Managing Editor International Spectrum Magazine Spectrum Tel: +1 720 259 1356 Clif's Direct Tel: +1 619 460 5678 On Mar 23, 2010, at 10:40 AM, Brian Leach wrote: Tony As always you make some good points. 1/ It's not the term MultiValue I have a problem with - that we should continue to support since it already has a meaning and a presence, and one worth building on. For one thing, MVDBMS is a nice abbreviation! It's the terminology used within that, that is the problem: for example, I want to put some web pages out giving an introduction to the query language. What do I call it? If I use the word 'RetrieVe' that alienates every other ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
I think it would be great do something like this. Multivalue Query [mvQuery] Multivalue Basic [mvBasic] Multivalue PROC [mvPROC] I also think it would be great if someone could write a piece of a book that is very generic (keep it at a 20,000 foot view) which covers each major topic area. Once complete, a group of experts-at-large in the various flavors add platform specific details. When complete, one or more of the know-it-alls [like some of the gurus on this list] combine the common parts, while leaving the unique areas in place. Basically, a wiki to book transformation. Many of the books sold today have two, three, and even more authors (especially the technically oriented books). Something like this could reduce the work required (just doing a piece of the whole) and increase the potential market (supports most platforms) for sales. I see a lot of talent on this list that can pull something like this off, it just needs a great leader (and I see many of them here too). Regards, Jim -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Clifton Oliver Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 6:39 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide In Spectrum magazine, we use the term MultiValue Basic to talk about the programming language in articles that are not platform specific. I put it in the style and usage guide for just the reasons being brought up here. I don't see any reason not to add other MultiValue generic terms. MultiValue Query comes to mind. I'm open to suggestions about that and other terms. Post them here, or if you'd rather not, just send them to me at edi...@intl-spectrum.com (or my regular e-mail address). Regards, Clif -- Clifton Oliver, Managing Editor International Spectrum Magazine Spectrum Tel: +1 720 259 1356 Clif's Direct Tel: +1 619 460 5678 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Well, the terminology issue is something we (Spectrum magazine in particular) can promote since we are already committed to promoting the term MultiValue (note the mid-cap casing) and the MultiValue Logo. We just add such terms to our Style and Usage Guide and use them in the magazine. Side note: Is there any interest in us having our Style and Usage Guide available online? I'm interested in hearing what folks would find an acceptable term for TCL/ECL/etc. As to the idea of of a generic book, groups of experts, etc., that sounds like a fame and glory no profit Open Source kind of thing. A lot of the experts you might want to attract are dudes and dudettes trying to make a living. That goes back to some of Tony's comments. How could that be made worthwhile for said experts to forgo revenue producing time to produce a non-profit book? Considering some other Open Source documentation efforts, I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just challenging everyone to present detailed ideas for how it could be made to work. Regards, Clif On Mar 23, 2010, at 6:09 PM, James Canale, Jr. wrote: I think it would be great do something like this. Multivalue Query [mvQuery] Multivalue Basic [mvBasic] Multivalue PROC [mvPROC] I also think it would be great if someone could write a piece of a book that is very generic (keep it at a 20,000 foot view) which covers each major topic area. Once complete, a group of experts-at-large in the various flavors add platform specific details. When complete, one or more of the know-it-alls [like some of the gurus on this list] combine the common parts, while leaving the unique areas in place. Basically, a wiki to book transformation. Many of the books sold today have two, three, and even more authors (especially the technically oriented books). Something like this could reduce the work required (just doing a piece of the whole) and increase the potential market (supports most platforms) for sales. I see a lot of talent on this list that can pull something like this off, it just needs a great leader (and I see many of them here too). Regards, Jim -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Clifton Oliver Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 6:39 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide In Spectrum magazine, we use the term MultiValue Basic to talk about the programming language in articles that are not platform specific. I put it in the style and usage guide for just the reasons being brought up here. I don't see any reason not to add other MultiValue generic terms. MultiValue Query comes to mind. I'm open to suggestions about that and other terms. Post them here, or if you'd rather not, just send them to me at edi...@intl-spectrum.com (or my regular e-mail address). Regards, Clif -- Clifton Oliver, Managing Editor International Spectrum Magazine Spectrum Tel: +1 720 259 1356 Clif's Direct Tel: +1 619 460 5678 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Hi Clif, I'd be interesting in reading. I write the occasional piece and probably should use more encompassing terms to enhance future search-ability and to promote the database style. Regarding ECL/TCL/etc, since I'm normally in Unix/Linux land, I normally think of them as shells, which brings MultiValue Shell (MVSH) to mind. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Clifton Oliver Sent: Wednesday, 24 March 2010 4:19 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide Well, the terminology issue is something we (Spectrum magazine in particular) can promote since we are already committed to promoting the term MultiValue (note the mid-cap casing) and the MultiValue Logo. We just add such terms to our Style and Usage Guide and use them in the magazine. Side note: Is there any interest in us having our Style and Usage Guide available online? I'm interested in hearing what folks would find an acceptable term for TCL/ECL/etc. As to the idea of of a generic book, groups of experts, etc., that sounds like a fame and glory no profit Open Source kind of thing. A lot of the experts you might want to attract are dudes and dudettes trying to make a living. That goes back to some of Tony's comments. How could that be made worthwhile for said experts to forgo revenue producing time to produce a non-profit book? Considering some other Open Source documentation efforts, I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just challenging everyone to present detailed ideas for how it could be made to work. Regards, Clif On Mar 23, 2010, at 6:09 PM, James Canale, Jr. wrote: I think it would be great do something like this. Multivalue Query [mvQuery] Multivalue Basic [mvBasic] Multivalue PROC [mvPROC] I also think it would be great if someone could write a piece of a book that is very generic (keep it at a 20,000 foot view) which covers each major topic area. Once complete, a group of experts-at-large in the various flavors add platform specific details. When complete, one or more of the know-it-alls [like some of the gurus on this list] combine the common parts, while leaving the unique areas in place. Basically, a wiki to book transformation. Many of the books sold today have two, three, and even more authors (especially the technically oriented books). Something like this could reduce the work required (just doing a piece of the whole) and increase the potential market (supports most platforms) for sales. I see a lot of talent on this list that can pull something like this off, it just needs a great leader (and I see many of them here too). Regards, Jim -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Clifton Oliver Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 6:39 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide In Spectrum magazine, we use the term MultiValue Basic to talk about the programming language in articles that are not platform specific. I put it in the style and usage guide for just the reasons being brought up here. I don't see any reason not to add other MultiValue generic terms. MultiValue Query comes to mind. I'm open to suggestions about that and other terms. Post them here, or if you'd rather not, just send them to me at edi...@intl-spectrum.com (or my regular e-mail address). Regards, Clif -- Clifton Oliver, Managing Editor International Spectrum Magazine Spectrum Tel: +1 720 259 1356 Clif's Direct Tel: +1 619 460 5678 ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ ### The information transmitted in this message and attachments (if any) is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed. The message may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. The intended recipient of this e-mail may only use, reproduce, disclose or distribute the information contained in this e-mail and any attached files with the permission of IMB
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Got it. grin I'll get it updated with our latest revisions and get an html version up shortly. (Read: It's my part-time job. I'll get to it--promise) Regards, Clif I'll post here and elsewhere when it available. On Mar 23, 2010, at 10:34 PM, Dan McGrath wrote: My apologises, I'd be interesting in reading should have been I'd be interested in reading the Style and Usage Guide -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Dan McGrath Sent: Wednesday, 24 March 2010 4:31 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide Hi Clif, I'd be interesting in reading. I write the occasional piece and probably should use more encompassing terms to enhance future search-ability and to promote the database style. Regarding ECL/TCL/etc, since I'm normally in Unix/Linux land, I normally think of them as shells, which brings MultiValue Shell (MVSH) to mind. ### The information transmitted in this message and attachments (if any) is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed. The message may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. The intended recipient of this e-mail may only use, reproduce, disclose or distribute the information contained in this e-mail and any attached files with the permission of IMB. ### ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Wow. You held on to that a long time. Sorry about losing your briefcase to some lowlife. As a point of reference, the last official PPG covered R81, which was renamed without many changes to R83. R90 was only used by Ian Sandler for his GA version. I did a CIE Pocket Guide which was closer to R90. By 1990, the Pick code had forked into Advanced Pick. And it was that release that I folded all of the previous Pocket Guides and Pick manuals into EPick. The good news is that I see notices from Google alerts when my books pop up on sites like Amazon and Abe Books. The bad news is that I have seen them listed for upwards of 300 bucks, but I suspect they can be found for less. I hope you are able to find a replacement. Best regards, Jon Sisk http://jes.com jes.com MAJ Programming wrote: My briefcase was stolen and in it was one of these small JES Pick Pocket Guides. While I have access to all of the docs I need via the internet, I still refer to this for some efforts. With no distraction, could anyone donate or offer to sell me one of these. I don't recall the vintage of the one I had but it wasn't Microdata (or another flavor) specific. Probably good old solid R90. Thanks in advance, Mark Johnson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - http://jes.com On-demand 1 on 1 private training for all MultiValue platforms and languages. -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Pick-Pocket-Guide-tp27982214p27983190.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
I will NEVER give mine up, even though it is held together with rubber bands now! :) -Dianne MAJ Programming wrote: My briefcase was stolen and in it was one of these small JES Pick Pocket Guides. While I have access to all of the docs I need via the internet, I still refer to this for some efforts. With no distraction, could anyone donate or offer to sell me one of these. I don't recall the vintage of the one I had but it wasn't Microdata (or another flavor) specific. Probably good old solid R90. Thanks in advance, Mark Johnson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Hi Folks There were two available via Amazon.de. I have snapped one of them up, the other one is available for 21.33 Euros. Liaise with me directly if you want it and need help getting it, as it doesn't appear to be available via .com or .co.uk. Kind regards Glenn Sallis -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Dianne Ackerman Sent: Montag, 22. März 2010 13:59 To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide I will NEVER give mine up, even though it is held together with rubber bands now! :) -Dianne MAJ Programming wrote: My briefcase was stolen and in it was one of these small JES Pick Pocket Guides. While I have access to all of the docs I need via the internet, I still refer to this for some efforts. With no distraction, could anyone donate or offer to sell me one of these. I don't recall the vintage of the one I had but it wasn't Microdata (or another flavor) specific. Probably good old solid R90. Thanks in advance, Mark Johnson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users Legal Disclaimer: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity to whom it is addressed or by their designee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are on notice that any distribution of this message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this message ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
I have had mine since 1988 it is version IV and I am also sorry that I can't depart from it. Laura -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Dianne Ackerman Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 8:59 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide I will NEVER give mine up, even though it is held together with rubber bands now! :) -Dianne MAJ Programming wrote: My briefcase was stolen and in it was one of these small JES Pick Pocket Guides. While I have access to all of the docs I need via the internet, I still refer to this for some efforts. With no distraction, could anyone donate or offer to sell me one of these. I don't recall the vintage of the one I had but it wasn't Microdata (or another flavor) specific. Probably good old solid R90. Thanks in advance, Mark Johnson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by SecureMail, and is believed to be clean. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Mine is also from '88. Maybe karma will be on your side, and the person who stole it, if caught will also be charged with possession of instruments of crime, after all a book that teaches one how to pick pockets, I'm guessing is illegal! :) (coming from experience as my wife's family of police officers just could not understand why I would have such a book openly displayed on my desk) -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Laura Wright Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 9:19 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide I have had mine since 1988 it is version IV and I am also sorry that I can't depart from it. Laura -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Dianne Ackerman Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 8:59 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide I will NEVER give mine up, even though it is held together with rubber bands now! :) -Dianne MAJ Programming wrote: My briefcase was stolen and in it was one of these small JES Pick Pocket Guides. While I have access to all of the docs I need via the internet, I still refer to this for some efforts. With no distraction, could anyone donate or offer to sell me one of these. I don't recall the vintage of the one I had but it wasn't Microdata (or another flavor) specific. Probably good old solid R90. Thanks in advance, Mark Johnson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by SecureMail, and is believed to be clean. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Copyright questions notwithstanding, someone who has one of these could maybe submit to google and they might put it up on google books for the whole world to enjoy. Brad U.S. BANCORP made the following annotations - Electronic Privacy Notice. This e-mail, and any attachments, contains information that is, or may be, covered by electronic communications privacy laws, and is also confidential and proprietary in nature. If you are not the intended recipient, please be advised that you are legally prohibited from retaining, using, copying, distributing, or otherwise disclosing this information in any manner. Instead, please reply to the sender that you have received this communication in error, and then immediately delete it. Thank you in advance for your cooperation. - ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
My copy went the way of the dinosaurs years ago. Who knew it would become such a collectors' item? PS: I use the SYS.HELP BASIC.HELP files if I need them. Karen Bessel Software Developer Tyler Technologies, Inc. 972.713.3770 ext: 6227 www.tylertech.com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
This is a great suggestion!!! Karen Bessel Software Developer Tyler Technologies, Inc. 972.713.3770 ext: 6227 www.tylertech.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of bradley.sch...@usbank.com Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 8:30 AM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide Copyright questions notwithstanding, someone who has one of these could maybe submit to google and they might put it up on google books for the whole world to enjoy. Brad U.S. BANCORP made the following annotations - Electronic Privacy Notice. This e-mail, and any attachments, contains information that is, or may be, covered by electronic communications privacy laws, and is also confidential and proprietary in nature. If you are not the intended recipient, please be advised that you are legally prohibited from retaining, using, copying, distributing, or otherwise disclosing this information in any manner. Instead, please reply to the sender that you have received this communication in error, and then immediately delete it. Thank you in advance for your cooperation. - ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
You know, this is a true example of a typical pickie. He gets his briefcase stolen, and all he cares about is his Pick manual!! Should be an example to all of ussniff. -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of MAJ Programming Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 12:59 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide My briefcase was stolen and in it was one of these small JES Pick Pocket Guides. While I have access to all of the docs I need via the internet, I still refer to this for some efforts. With no distraction, could anyone donate or offer to sell me one of these. I don't recall the vintage of the one I had but it wasn't Microdata (or another flavor) specific. Probably good old solid R90. Thanks in advance, Mark Johnson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Okay... I mean't to say off-list. It's the Fifth Edition, if that matters. Gwen -Original Message- From: Gwen Buck Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 9:17 AM To: 'U2 Users List' Subject: RE: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide Mark, I have an extra. Contact me off-line at gb...@gaska.com Regards, Gwen Buck Gaska Tape Inc. __ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4964 (20100322) __ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
I don't know where to put this note in this thread so I'll reply to my friend Jon... What amazes me is that the Pick/MV community seems to be so anti-book and pro-everything-should-be-free, and this is why we haven't seen any new books in this industry for so many years. And yet the fondness and passion for Jon's works seems to be timeless. If people in this community expressed serious interest in new books and other education material for MV, we'd have them. Heck, a windbag like me can cough up a few hundred pages in a weekend. And with a windbag like Jon, well, we could crank out a book over a session at Starbuck's. ;) I've blogged and written forum postings about the lack of books in this market: remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2007/05/mvbooks1.html All we really need is some sense of visible community commitment and I'm sure we would see new/modern books for Pick/MultiValue just like Linux, SQL Server, PHP, Java, C#, Excel, and hundreds of other technical topics - not just from me or maybe Jon but from many other qualified authors in this community. Look at it this way, a lack of MV books can cost you your job, so it may be worth it to support efforts like this. If your company is acquired and/or you get a new CTO, you may hear: What is this? I can't find a single book on this. We need to replace this with something mainstream. Help foster the creation of a wealth of material and that battle of this war will no longer need to be fought. Thoughts? Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
I haven't bought an old pick book by Jonathan Sisk for weeks. If Jon printed, or released existing books, however old to Kindle, I'd buy. This goes for you too, Tony. You write well. From: 3xk547...@sneakemail.com To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:39:18 -0700 Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide I don't know where to put this note in this thread so I'll reply to my friend Jon... What amazes me is that the Pick/MV community seems to be so anti-book and pro-everything-should-be-free, and this is why we haven't seen any new books in this industry for so many years. And yet the fondness and passion for Jon's works seems to be timeless. If people in this community expressed serious interest in new books and other education material for MV, we'd have them. Heck, a windbag like me can cough up a few hundred pages in a weekend. And with a windbag like Jon, well, we could crank out a book over a session at Starbuck's. ;) I've blogged and written forum postings about the lack of books in this market: remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2007/05/mvbooks1.html All we really need is some sense of visible community commitment and I'm sure we would see new/modern books for Pick/MultiValue just like Linux, SQL Server, PHP, Java, C#, Excel, and hundreds of other technical topics - not just from me or maybe Jon but from many other qualified authors in this community. Look at it this way, a lack of MV books can cost you your job, so it may be worth it to support efforts like this. If your company is acquired and/or you get a new CTO, you may hear: What is this? I can't find a single book on this. We need to replace this with something mainstream. Help foster the creation of a wealth of material and that battle of this war will no longer need to be fought. Thoughts? Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users _ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/210850552/direct/01/ ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
I would be especially interested in a good book about web development with a U2 back end. Connectivity issues, etc. There's lots of work going on in the area, but no books that I am aware of. Also, an updated Pick Pocket Guide. I keep getting caught with my hand in their pocket and then I get arrested. Charles Shaffer Senior Analyst NTN-Bower Corporation ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Check out Brian Leach's offerings. http://www.brianleach.co.uk/pages/books.htm Cheers John Rodgers MasterPack Project Team Masonite International Tel: (813) 2612396 ext 3036 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of charles_shaf...@ntn-bower.com Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 1:51 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide I would be especially interested in a good book about web development with a U2 back end. Connectivity issues, etc. There's lots of work going on in the area, but no books that I am aware of. Also, an updated Pick Pocket Guide. I keep getting caught with my hand in their pocket and then I get arrested. Charles Shaffer Senior Analyst NTN-Bower Corporation ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
I found a copy of Pick Basic, A programmers Guide ('87) in my local non-chain
bookstore, back in the late 80's, which I keep around to help non-MV
programmers try to get a handle on Pick basic and MV technique. Now if I tried
to find a Universe book at any store, I'd be in the Space and Astronomy section.
I don't think we are anti-book, everything should be free at all. It's just
there's nothing out there to buy.
I think a Wintergate for Dummies or a new Universe Admistrator's Guide
(including *nix and win)
would go over fairly well, within our community. But that's about it, I
don't think there would be much profit it in.
and without profit, getting something published without paying outright for
the job doesn't happen often, or the cost
of the book would make one think twice about buying it, unless their company
purchased it for them.
-Original Message-
From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-
boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 1:39 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
I don't know where to put this note in this thread so I'll reply
to my friend Jon...
What amazes me is that the Pick/MV community seems to be so
anti-book and pro-everything-should-be-free, and this is why
we haven't seen any new books in this industry for so many years.
And yet the fondness and passion for Jon's works seems to be
timeless.
___
U2-Users mailing list
U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org
http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
I still have mine :-) Close to 20 years now... Sent from my iPhone 3Gs On 22 Mar 2010, at 10:00 AM, Jon Sisk j...@jes.com wrote: Wow. You held on to that a long time. Sorry about losing your briefcase to some lowlife. As a point of reference, the last official PPG covered R81, which was renamed without many changes to R83. R90 was only used by Ian Sandler for his GA version. I did a CIE Pocket Guide which was closer to R90. By 1990, the Pick code had forked into Advanced Pick. And it was that release that I folded all of the previous Pocket Guides and Pick manuals into EPick. The good news is that I see notices from Google alerts when my books pop up on sites like Amazon and Abe Books. The bad news is that I have seen them listed for upwards of 300 bucks, but I suspect they can be found for less. I hope you are able to find a replacement. Best regards, Jon Sisk http://jes.com jes.com MAJ Programming wrote: My briefcase was stolen and in it was one of these small JES Pick Pocket Guides. While I have access to all of the docs I need via the internet, I still refer to this for some efforts. With no distraction, could anyone donate or offer to sell me one of these. I don't recall the vintage of the one I had but it wasn't Microdata (or another flavor) specific. Probably good old solid R90. Thanks in advance, Mark Johnson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - http://jes.com On-demand 1 on 1 private training for all MultiValue platforms and languages. -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Pick-Pocket-Guide-tp27982214p27983190.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users To read FRSTIA's disclaimer for the e-mail go to http://www.frstia.co.za/ ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
In a message dated 3/22/2010 10:41:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 3xk547...@sneakemail.com writes: If people in this community expressed serious interest in new books and other education material for MV, we'd have them. Heck, a windbag like me can cough up a few hundred pages in a weekend. And with a windbag like Jon, well, we could crank out a book over a session at Starbuck's. ;) Tony don't you think part of this is that, were I to write a How to program Pick BASIC or whatever type book, that I'd sell... 100 copies? It doesn't really seem worth it to make all that effort and not get filthy rich. I would be MORE than happy to collaborate with some other *devotees* to write up such a tutorial online. Or even some other Pick tutorial (although I'm a expert in programming). I've written a few online Pick resources and no one has ever made a comment :) I guess they're perfect. Will Perfect Johnson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
-Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 12:39 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide I don't know where to put this note in this thread so I'll reply to my friend Jon... What amazes me is that the Pick/MV community seems to be so anti-book and pro-everything-should-be-free, and this is why we haven't seen any new books in this industry for so many years. And yet the fondness and passion for Jon's works seems to be timeless. If people in this community expressed serious interest in new books and other education material for MV, we'd have them. Heck, a windbag like me can cough up a few hundred pages in a weekend. And with a windbag like Jon, well, we could crank out a book over a session at Starbuck's. ;) Why would there be interest in books when there are VARs and consultants that will just do the work? How many developers out there would really take interest in core design and integration tomes? That's when a magazine article or forum thread can't expose the details properly. I'd love to write a book, but books written about design and integration tend to have short shelf lives. There are plenty of application design books already out there that can be applied to code of any language. The integration aspect is constantly changing and there are so many methods to cover. It's difficult to write something useable by everyone. Remember the communication RFC I tried to get backing on? No one wants to make things easy, because then it'll become mundane and standard. Mundane and standard don't bring in revenue. We(MV in general) are fish still fighting for the same food in a dwindling tank. I've blogged and written forum postings about the lack of books in this market: remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2007/05/mvbooks1.html All we really need is some sense of visible community commitment and I'm sure we would see new/modern books for Pick/MultiValue just like Linux, SQL Server, PHP, Java, C#, Excel, and hundreds of other technical topics - not just from me or maybe Jon but from many other qualified authors in this community. A commitment is one tough thing. Finding a topic you can fulfill in a single book, without drowning the reader, is another. Look at it this way, a lack of MV books can cost you your job, so it may be worth it to support efforts like this. If your company is acquired and/or you get a new CTO, you may hear: What is this? I can't find a single book on this. We need to replace this with something mainstream. Help foster the creation of a wealth of material and that battle of this war will no longer need to be fought. Thoughts? Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno At this point, a couple of randomly published and unnoticed books will not prevent a seat from being overturned or an application from being overhauled. However, it wouldn't hurt to have a few e-books on Kindle. Glen Batchelor IT Director All-Spec Industries phone: (910) 332-0424 fax: (910) 763-5664 E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com Web: http://www.all-spec.com Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Really A lack of MV books may cost me my job??? I don't want to throw flames here, but I don't think I've ever heard anything quite so ridiculous. Karen Bessel Software Developer Tyler Technologies, Inc. 972.713.3770 ext: 6227 www.tylertech.com -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 12:39 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide I don't know where to put this note in this thread so I'll reply to my friend Jon... What amazes me is that the Pick/MV community seems to be so anti-book and pro-everything-should-be-free, and this is why we haven't seen any new books in this industry for so many years. And yet the fondness and passion for Jon's works seems to be timeless. If people in this community expressed serious interest in new books and other education material for MV, we'd have them. Heck, a windbag like me can cough up a few hundred pages in a weekend. And with a windbag like Jon, well, we could crank out a book over a session at Starbuck's. ;) I've blogged and written forum postings about the lack of books in this market: remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2007/05/mvbooks1.html All we really need is some sense of visible community commitment and I'm sure we would see new/modern books for Pick/MultiValue just like Linux, SQL Server, PHP, Java, C#, Excel, and hundreds of other technical topics - not just from me or maybe Jon but from many other qualified authors in this community. Look at it this way, a lack of MV books can cost you your job, so it may be worth it to support efforts like this. If your company is acquired and/or you get a new CTO, you may hear: What is this? I can't find a single book on this. We need to replace this with something mainstream. Help foster the creation of a wealth of material and that battle of this war will no longer need to be fought. Thoughts? Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
In a message dated 3/22/2010 11:09:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ggal...@wyanokegroup.com writes: think a Wintergate for Dummies Accuterm Scripting for Dummies The integrated help is helpful, but not really for someone trying to learn it for the first time. Will ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
I will pick that up for my library. The environmnet I am working in is Unix. Unidata runs on Unix. All of our web servers run LAMP. Our clients are a mixture of WIndows and Linux. Recently we have been moving toward Linux clients for plant floor systems. We do some .NET development, but not for web apps. SInce the reference guides are pretty much available for U2, I guess I would be interested in seeing a good cookbook for client to database setups, configurations, connections, and applications. Charles Shaffer Senior Analyst NTN-Bower Corporation John Rodgers jrodg...@masonite.com Sent by: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org 03/22/2010 12:54 PM Please respond to U2 Users List To: U2 Users List u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org cc: Subject:Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide Check out Brian Leach's offerings. http://www.brianleach.co.uk/pages/books.htm Cheers John Rodgers MasterPack Project Team Masonite International Tel: (813) 2612396 ext 3036 -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of charles_shaf...@ntn-bower.com Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 1:51 PM To: U2 Users List Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide I would be especially interested in a good book about web development with a U2 back end. Connectivity issues, etc. There's lots of work going on in the area, but no books that I am aware of. Also, an updated Pick Pocket Guide. I keep getting caught with my hand in their pocket and then I get arrested. Charles Shaffer Senior Analyst NTN-Bower Corporation ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
From: Bessel, Karen Really A lack of MV books may cost me my job??? I don't want to throw flames here, but I don't think I've ever heard anything quite so ridiculous. The concept is truly worthy of ridicule but voicing the belief that this has happened and will continue to happen should not itself be ridiculous. I'm sure a number of people here can attest to an exchange with a decision maker where lack of information about MV has caused some concern about whether the company's IT assets sould be based on the platform. We need to get past the stigmas of Pick and Prime, the legacy flavor of it, and stop sounding like grass-roots fans and start sounding more like supporters of mainstream solutions. U2 users lost the crutch of it's OK, it's IBM. Now you need something else to lend credibility to the platform and your own business/technical decisions. The more information that people can easily find out there the better. Quick note to anyone who says they'd like to publish HowTos and other helpful info free to the community: that's what PickWiki and the U2UG wiki are for. Write your material there, solicit contributions and commentary, get people to collaborate, tell people the material is there! Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com Nebula RD sells Pick/MultiValue products worldwide, and provides related development services remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
In a message dated 3/22/2010 11:42:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 3xk547...@sneakemail.com writes: Quick note to anyone who says they'd like to publish HowTos and other helpful info free to the community: that's what PickWiki and the U2UG wiki are for. Write your material there, solicit contributions and commentary, get people to collaborate, tell people the material is there! Root Toot! And get no credit for your work! That model is probably dead. It works for universal encyclopedias, it doesn't work so much for niche markets. Wrote an article about it W.J. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Late last year I had a project torpedoed almost entirely because no one could find any literature about the U2 environment. The it's OK, it's IBM saw didn't work either. They liked the concept of a multi-valued database, liked the design, were blown away by the proof of concept and were thrilled by the price. But since I was dealing with a group of intellectuals, not having published books was a death knell. They didn't want to be 'beholden' to a product that was so cultish (their words by the way). So, it does happen and I suspect more often that we are honestly aware of. Dave Graham -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 2:38 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide From: Bessel, Karen Really A lack of MV books may cost me my job??? I don't want to throw flames here, but I don't think I've ever heard anything quite so ridiculous. The concept is truly worthy of ridicule but voicing the belief that this has happened and will continue to happen should not itself be ridiculous. I'm sure a number of people here can attest to an exchange with a decision maker where lack of information about MV has caused some concern about whether the company's IT assets sould be based on the platform. We need to get past the stigmas of Pick and Prime, the legacy flavor of it, and stop sounding like grass-roots fans and start sounding more like supporters of mainstream solutions. U2 users lost the crutch of it's OK, it's IBM. Now you need something else to lend credibility to the platform and your own business/technical decisions. The more information that people can easily find out there the better. Quick note to anyone who says they'd like to publish HowTos and other helpful info free to the community: that's what PickWiki and the U2UG wiki are for. Write your material there, solicit contributions and commentary, get people to collaborate, tell people the material is there! Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com Nebula RD sells Pick/MultiValue products worldwide, and provides related development services remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
If you look at the other technologies you mention- the actual providers of these technologies are leaders in also providing books. Microsoft press issue many books every year on sql server, .net, asp.net with ajax - allsorts. It is a similar story with oracle, Sun etc. There is none of this in the MV world - the providers are the best suited to producing such literature, and in my opinion should be taking the lead in this - they have consultants who are well respected and whose books i think would go down well. Within microsft you get well respected people like Scott Guthrie, john sharp etc - An idea here for Rocket perhaps ??? -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony Gravagno Sent: 22 March 2010 17:39 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide I don't know where to put this note in this thread so I'll reply to my friend Jon... What amazes me is that the Pick/MV community seems to be so anti-book and pro-everything-should-be-free, and this is why we haven't seen any new books in this industry for so many years. And yet the fondness and passion for Jon's works seems to be timeless. If people in this community expressed serious interest in new books and other education material for MV, we'd have them. Heck, a windbag like me can cough up a few hundred pages in a weekend. And with a windbag like Jon, well, we could crank out a book over a session at Starbuck's. ;) I've blogged and written forum postings about the lack of books in this market: remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com/blog/tech/mv/2007/05/mvbooks1.html All we really need is some sense of visible community commitment and I'm sure we would see new/modern books for Pick/MultiValue just like Linux, SQL Server, PHP, Java, C#, Excel, and hundreds of other technical topics - not just from me or maybe Jon but from many other qualified authors in this community. Look at it this way, a lack of MV books can cost you your job, so it may be worth it to support efforts like this. If your company is acquired and/or you get a new CTO, you may hear: What is this? I can't find a single book on this. We need to replace this with something mainstream. Help foster the creation of a wealth of material and that battle of this war will no longer need to be fought. Thoughts? Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! http://Twitter.com/TonyGravagno ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide {unclassified}
Hi Mark, Check out www.abebooks.com. It's a grouping of new and second-hand booksellers from all over the world. Search for the title Pick Pocket Guide and there is a second-hand copy available for US$18.73 from Trinity City Books, Garland Texas. Cheers, Andy Mack -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of MAJ Programming Sent: Monday, 22 March 2010 5:59 p.m. To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide My briefcase was stolen and in it was one of these small JES Pick Pocket Guides. While I have access to all of the docs I need via the internet, I still refer to this for some efforts. With no distraction, could anyone donate or offer to sell me one of these. I don't recall the vintage of the one I had but it wasn't Microdata (or another flavor) specific. Probably good old solid R90. Thanks in advance, Mark Johnson ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users The information contained in this Internet Email message is intended for the addressee only and may contain privileged information, but not necessarily the official views or opinions of the New Zealand Defence Force. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. If you have received this message in error, please Email or telephone the sender immediately. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
In message col107-w66ce4bea66ba98420166ce2...@phx.gbl, Jo Lester jp.les...@hotmail.com writes I haven't bought an old pick book by Jonathan Sisk for weeks. If Jon printed, or released existing books, however old to Kindle, I'd buy. This goes for you too, Tony. You write well. I don't know if Jonathan still owns his own copyrights. However, I would have thought, if he does, publishing them via a print on demand publisher like Baen might be a good idea. Dunno if O'Reilly would do something like that. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman pi...@thewolery.demon.co.uk 'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998 Visit the MaVerick web-site - http://www.maverick-dbms.org Open Source Pick ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
I have not given up any of my copyrights. These are all interesting ideas, but the issue really is scale. Back in the day, I could print and sell thousands of Pocket Guides, and my publishers all printed a minimum of 5000 on any run, most of which I sold directly. So while there was a chance of not even covering the tangible production costs, I guessed correctly and sold them all out. Today, we could sell what, a few hundred? While I still love the community, that doesn't sound like a great return on investment. My hope, which started in 1995 when I put my Pick/BASIC book up for free on my site, was that an effective micropayment system would emerge, allowing me to sell work in small bits for amounts both fair and below what I envisioned as the blink factor. But this didn't happen, so neither did new writings. For a while, I had a Donate via Paypal button on my Pick/BASIC download page. Even now that book accounts for half of my site traffic and is downloaded hundreds of times a month. (Who are those guys?) Take a WAG how many people donated in the year the button was displayed? In any case, thanks for the good vibes generated by this thread. I had no idea people were still lugging around my antique books. Best regards, jes http://jes.com jes.com Anthony W. Youngman-3 wrote: In message col107-w66ce4bea66ba98420166ce2...@phx.gbl, Jo Lester jp.les...@hotmail.com writes I haven't bought an old pick book by Jonathan Sisk for weeks. If Jon printed, or released existing books, however old to Kindle, I'd buy. This goes for you too, Tony. You write well. I don't know if Jonathan still owns his own copyrights. However, I would have thought, if he does, publishing them via a print on demand publisher like Baen might be a good idea. Dunno if O'Reilly would do something like that. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman pi...@thewolery.demon.co.uk 'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998 Visit the MaVerick web-site - http://www.maverick-dbms.org Open Source Pick ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - http://jes.com On-demand 1 on 1 private training for all MultiValue platforms and languages. -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Pick-Pocket-Guide-tp27982214p27995283.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Look at LuLu.com print on demand --- You upload your book as a PDF -- your cost is zero - you get a royalty on 'demand print' and don't have to handle ANY aspect of it... Just a thought!! DW -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Jon Sisk Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 8:38 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide I have not given up any of my copyrights. These are all interesting ideas, but the issue really is scale. Back in the day, I could print and sell thousands of Pocket Guides, and my publishers all printed a minimum of 5000 on any run, most of which I sold directly. So while there was a chance of not even covering the tangible production costs, I guessed correctly and sold them all out. Today, we could sell what, a few hundred? While I still love the community, that doesn't sound like a great return on investment. My hope, which started in 1995 when I put my Pick/BASIC book up for free on my site, was that an effective micropayment system would emerge, allowing me to sell work in small bits for amounts both fair and below what I envisioned as the blink factor. But this didn't happen, so neither did new writings. For a while, I had a Donate via Paypal button on my Pick/BASIC download page. Even now that book accounts for half of my site traffic and is downloaded hundreds of times a month. (Who are those guys?) Take a WAG how many people donated in the year the button was displayed? In any case, thanks for the good vibes generated by this thread. I had no idea people were still lugging around my antique books. Best regards, jes http://jes.com jes.com Anthony W. Youngman-3 wrote: In message col107-w66ce4bea66ba98420166ce2...@phx.gbl, Jo Lester jp.les...@hotmail.com writes I haven't bought an old pick book by Jonathan Sisk for weeks. If Jon printed, or released existing books, however old to Kindle, I'd buy. This goes for you too, Tony. You write well. I don't know if Jonathan still owns his own copyrights. However, I would have thought, if he does, publishing them via a print on demand publisher like Baen might be a good idea. Dunno if O'Reilly would do something like that. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman pi...@thewolery.demon.co.uk 'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998 Visit the MaVerick web-site - http://www.maverick-dbms.org Open Source Pick ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - http://jes.com On-demand 1 on 1 private training for all MultiValue platforms and languages. -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Pick-Pocket-Guide-tp27982214p27995283.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
I would talk to Brian Leach about how he publishes his. If I'm not mistaken they are printed on demand. I have bought a few from him, and they are very good quality. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Still, good ideas, but how many would like their Pocket Guide to be the size of a normal book, versus 3-3/4x6? If that's what you want, look for the Desk Reference Edition of the Pick Pocket Guide, which we produced as part of The Pick Library from Tab Books, Inc, a division of McMillan. It has the same content as the Fifth Edition of the spiral bound one. Here's our Pick Pubs Database entry: http://jes.com/mvpubs/ppg4dr.html http://jes.com/mvpubs/ppg4dr.html j. Lloyd Cottrell wrote: I would talk to Brian Leach about how he publishes his. If I'm not mistaken they are printed on demand. I have bought a few from him, and they are very good quality. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - http://jes.com On-demand 1 on 1 private training for all MultiValue platforms and languages. -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Pick-Pocket-Guide-tp27982214p27995951.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Well, when the best known providers can't even get correct documentation in their manuals or examples that actually work, one wonders how suited they are to producing such literature. I'm not arguing against your point that they *should* be the leaders--like Sun, Microsoft, etc.--in literature. But really, when their own manuals have gross errors that have gone uncorrected for 5 to 10 years, who would trust them? Several years ago, I offered one of the major providers that I would re-write their course material for free just to make sure we had something to teach from that was at least correct. No charge. They weren't interested. Go figure. Regards, Clif On Mar 22, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Symeon Breen wrote: There is none of this in the MV world - the providers are the best suited to producing such literature, and in my opinion should be taking the lead in this ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
Donate to help support this doesn't work. I tried it as well, and got one donation in several years. However when I put up something unique, and only posted half of it, and then said Okay for the last half you have to click here to pay Then they payed. Will Johnson -Original Message- From: Jon Sisk j...@jes.com To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Mon, Mar 22, 2010 6:38 pm Subject: Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide I have not given up any of my copyrights. These are all interesting ideas, but the issue really is scale. Back in the day, I could print and sell thousands of Pocket Guides, and my publishers all printed a minimum of 5000 on any run, most of which I sold directly. So while there was a chance of not even covering the tangible production costs, I guessed correctly and sold them all out. Today, we could sell what, a few hundred? While I still love the community, that doesn't sound like a great return on investment. My hope, which started in 1995 when I put my Pick/BASIC book up for free on my site, was that an effective micropayment system would emerge, allowing me to sell work in small bits for amounts both fair and below what I envisioned as the blink factor. But this didn't happen, so neither did new writings. For a while, I had a Donate via Paypal button on my Pick/BASIC download page. Even now that book accounts for half of my site traffic and is downloaded hundreds of times a month. (Who are those guys?) Take a WAG how many people donated in the year the button was displayed? In any case, thanks for the good vibes generated by this thread. I had no idea people were still lugging around my antique books. Best regards, jes http://jes.com jes.com ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick Pocket Guide
From: Tony Gravagno ... just like Linux, SQL Server, PHP, Java, C#, Excel, and hundreds of other technical topics From: Symeon Breen If you look at the other technologies you mention- the actual providers of these technologies are leaders in also providing books the providers are the best suited to producing such literature, and in my opinion should be taking the lead in this... My respected colleague, I must disagree. My extemporaneous sampling above mentions three Microsoft products and three non-Microsoft products about which Microsoft Press (I believe) does not have any publications. Many books are indeed published by Microsoft Press but take a look at your local store bookshelves and you'll find dozens of other publishers including Wrox, Apress, Manning, McGraw-Hill, IDG, O'Reilly, SAMS, and Addison-Wesley. Books are not uniquely sourced by product providers, and they shouldn't be. Who is the provider charged with writing books for open source software? We need books specifically because software authors are generally poor writers, and software providers generally don't invest in quality documentation. Put it back in their hands because they are best suited? The world would be a terrible place if software companies figured out that they could provide poor documentation and then make even more money as the unique source of for-fee books that explain their products. I also disagree that the DBMS software providers specifically are the best suited to producing product literature. I want documentation from my software vendors, but then I want them to continue working on the software, not books. The process for creating books is different than for product docs, and you'll get commentary about products from an independent author that you won't get from the software provider. One of the reasons why I said initially that this community is anti-book is that I've heard the same sort of commentary from other MV colleagues, that the DBMS vendors should be providing books, where you rarely get this sort of comment about any other product. Look at your local bookstore shelves and see how many books are written by the software provider - precious few. No, pushing the publication of books onto the DBMS providers simply goes nowhere. Don't bother. It's been tried before. DBMS vendors don't want to write books and they simply don't. They won't even accept help for their docs - both Clif and I have offered to help the DBMS vendors with their docs and after giving the concept some lip service these initiatives never go anywhere. Even if one indignantly maintains that they still should write books, it's a moot point - they won't. So we need to pick up from there and move forward. Best, T ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick pocket guide
That one was easier to explain to my parents than my previous book, The REALITY Pocket Guide. They thought I was mixed up in some crazy California religious computer cult. And they were more or less correct. j. George Gallen-2 wrote: I recently stumbled across this link http://www.jes.com/mvpubs/ppg4.html I love the comment at the bottom, about them being held up or confiscated at customs. I remember when I moved from one apartment to another, my wife's two uncles both police officers, were gravely concerned, took me into another room and demanded an explaination as why I had a pick pocket guide. It didn't help at the time when I started laughing! saying, it's not a pick pocket guide, but rather it's a pick, pocket guide. I still wonder to this day, if they really believed it was programming reference book. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - http://jes.com On-demand 1 on 1 private training for all MultiValue platforms and languages. -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Pick-pocket-guide-tp23967575p23984833.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
Re: [U2] Pick pocket guide
We changed the CHOO-CHOO command on our microdata to say REALITY, What a concept (stolen from Robin Williams) There was always a few good jokes you could make to people when they asked what you did. Manipulating Reality was my favorite. George -Original Message- From: u2-users-boun...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:u2-users- boun...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Jon Sisk Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:39 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] Pick pocket guide That one was easier to explain to my parents than my previous book, The REALITY Pocket Guide. They thought I was mixed up in some crazy California religious computer cult. And they were more or less correct. j. George Gallen-2 wrote: I recently stumbled across this link http://www.jes.com/mvpubs/ppg4.html I love the comment at the bottom, about them being held up or confiscated at customs. I remember when I moved from one apartment to another, my wife's two uncles both police officers, were gravely concerned, took me into another room and demanded an explaination as why I had a pick pocket guide. It didn't help at the time when I started laughing! saying, it's not a pick pocket guide, but rather it's a pick, pocket guide. I still wonder to this day, if they really believed it was programming reference book. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users - http://jes.com On-demand 1 on 1 private training for all MultiValue platforms and languages. -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Pick-pocket-guide- tp23967575p23984833.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users ___ U2-Users mailing list U2-Users@listserver.u2ug.org http://listserver.u2ug.org/mailman/listinfo/u2-users
