Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Mecki Foerthmann]

jpb-u2ug wrote:


Oh and one of these days you are going to be sitting in the same seat
talking about the good old days too, and someone is going to be telling you
that you're a dinosaur. It's not easy trying to keep up with the technology
and if your company isn't using it you tend to gravitate toward what they do
use.

Jerry Banker
  

Not me Jerry, I usually don't stay long enough for that to happen.
If there's nothing new to learn I move on.
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[jpb-u2ug]

I resemble that remark. Actually what I was trying to get at was the
education and marketing factors. I'm not trying to slam MS or any other
operating system. I think that all technology should be used for what it is
good at. The right technology for the right task. I just think that the
education these new programmers are getting has no depth. They're not being
told that what they are being taught may not be what they will encounter in
the business world.
A case in point is the new thread that just started with the subject:

[U2] Getting a graphical view of my data in UniVerse

Oh and one of these days you are going to be sitting in the same seat
talking about the good old days too, and someone is going to be telling you
that you're a dinosaur. It's not easy trying to keep up with the technology
and if your company isn't using it you tend to gravitate toward what they do
use.

Jerry Banker


-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Mecki Foerthmann
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 2:23 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

I second that.

And don't forget those people who have been in the same company and the 
same office for over 20 years and still reminisce about the 'good old 
mainframe days'.
The first thing a new guy hears is, 'We don't like change here!'
Upgrading? Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
If you get a request, tell the requester that this is very difficult to 
do and could have all sorts of implications for the rest of the system.
Or even better, 'we can't make any changes because then we can't upgrade 
the software later, and therefore only the software vendor can make 
changes to the code.'
And of course at #1000 a day for their consultants it better be important.
If he or she still wants it, ignore it until they ask again.
If they don't, it obviously wasn't important enough anyway.
Users will find a way to solve their problems without IT, and in no time 
the whole business runs on spreadsheets because the stupid 'legacy' 
software is useless anyway.
And who's fault is that?

And then you get stupid software vendors who want to sell only their 
latest web-based, platform independent software product and tell 
management they will stop support for that old product soon and 
therefore they should rather not upgrade and buy their latest toy.

Or of course the old IT-manager retires and they hire a follower of the 
Church of Codd as replacement.

I've been around and seen it all.
It isn't always a PHB.

Symeon Breen wrote:
> There can also be blame at the coalface as well - I know many "pick" guys
> who really are dinosaurs and who bury their head in the sand if xml, web
> services, web access etc are mentioned ...
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Sallis
> Sent: 20 April 2009 14:48
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
>
> It's yet another story that makes people who know and understand the
> multivalue database model cringe. Often one of the reasons for migrating
> seems to be due to decisions being made upstairs by people who have not
> bothered to consult the people with the knowledge to inform of the
> technical realities and work involved in such a major change. 
>
> I have noticed over the years that SAP has been very heavily marketed.
> There is usually a reason for a product needing to be advertised ;-).
> Just because a product has massive marketing muscle behind it doesn't
> mean it's the bee's knees. I'm sure this story won't be the last
> expensive disaster!
>
> Glenn Sallis
> Software Developer
> Flextronics Logistics B.V
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Norman Morgan]

We used to experience what we called MBAM, "Management By Airline
Magazine".  Anytime our former CEO took a long trip, he would come back
fired up about the latest shiny, glitzy, gee-whiz thing featured in some
in-flight or business magazine.  Fortunately, he forgot about most of
them as soon as he heard what they really cost.


Norman Morgan <> nmor...@brake.com <> http://www.brake.com

Why do they sterilize the needles for lethal injection?


 

> -Original Message-
> From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org 
> [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of John Carter
> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:29 AM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
> 
> Amen to that. 
> 
> Too often ERP decisions are based on perceived 'Status' of 
> the software
> product by individuals that NEVER use it. It ends up being 
> about keeping up
> with the 'Jones' when sharing Executive war stories over 
> martinis while
> figuring out how much their Golden Parachute will provide 
> when they are
> finally jettisoned.
> 
> How many of us have dealt with this type of out of touch 
> executive that
> wants to blame the failed, late, overbudget (or all of the above)
> implementation of the GEE WIZ software package on the 
> 'Implementation Team'
> or the 'Unsophisticated Users'?
> 
> John H Carter III
> Impact Business Consulting Corporation
> Office/Fax (858) 676-3406;  Cell (760) 497-5545
> "Unlocking Your Potential"
> 
>  
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
> [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Schasny
> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:51 AM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
> 
> Unfortunately, its not always about the money. In many cases 
> its about a 
> change of  leadership where the new guy on top wants his own personal 
> favorite software. I have been personally involved with at least 2 
> instances where a new CFO has insisted that the ERP solution 
> with which 
> he/she/it is most familiar was instituted without regard for 
> cost, ROI, 
> or the possibility of increased functionality. In another 
> case a new CIO 
> insisted that a relational database (Informix in this case) 
> was the only 
> way to go and after 5 years and 10+ million dollars they had 
> managed to 
> replace the AR & AP modules with no new functionality, more than 
> quadruple the size of the IT department, and completely give 
> up on the 
> idea of replacing the businesses core application (alarm monitoring) 
> because of the propensity for the new systems to crash on a 
> regular basis.
> 
> I think it would be to our advantage if only businesses were 
> in fact led 
> by rational intelligent people all the time but Enron, Global 
> Crossings, 
> Bear Stearns, etc, etc, etc should be sufficient warning that 
> they are not.
> 
> Rex Gozar wrote:
> > It's fun to think of UV as the underdog and how the cards 
> are stacked
> > against us.  It's fun to be in the "I told you so" crowd when the
> > competitor fails.
> >
> > [stuff removed]
> >
> 
> -- 
> --
> --
> Jeff Schasny - Denver, Co, USA
> jschasny at gmail dot com
> --
> --
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> To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Bill Haskett]

   Don't forget Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the U.S. Congress, local school
   boards,  and the list is endless, isn't it.  Monkeys aren't limited in
   location or job (I've been found to act like one on more occasions than I
   care to remember).  :-)
   Bill
   __

 [snipped]

I think it would be to our advantage if only businesses were in fact led
by rational intelligent people all the time but Enron, Global Crossings,
Bear Stearns, etc, etc, etc should be sufficient warning that they are not.

Rex Gozar wrote:

It's fun to think of UV as the underdog and how the cards are stacked
against us.  It's fun to be in the "I told you so" crowd when the
competitor fails.

[stuff removed]
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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Rex Gozar]

But it's always about the money.  If the current UV system is perceived 
to be incomplete, management is FORCED to decide between buy or build -- 
both take money.  And they will automatically lean towards the solution 
they are familiar with (just like we do.)


As UV professionals, we need to address this human dynamic: Mr.NewGuy 
came from a place where he used "Feature X".  Your UV application 
doesn't have "Feature X", so Mr.NewGuy sees the it as "incomplete" or 
"lacking". Mr.NewGuy knows first-hand that this feature benefits the 
business (i.e. makes or saves money).  Have too many of these missing 
features and Mr.NewGuy has no choice but to SPEND MONEY and replace the 
whole system.  Real or not, Mr.NewGuy feels the pressure to do SOMETHING 
because he FEELS the old system is losing money.


So how do we address this?

Strategy 1: Don't fool yourself.  Just because you have a working 
application in production doesn't mean it couldn't be significantly better.


Strategy 2: Anticipate and implement useful features.  Study your 
competitor's systems and stay informed of the latest solutions to 
business problems.  Don't have Excel export capability? Get it.  Don't 
have mobile applications? Get them.


Strategy 3: Always make your managers look good.  Mr.NewGuy has revenue 
and budget goals -- build an application that meets those goals.  If 
Mr.NewGuy is meeting his business goals, there's no reason for him to 
tell the CEO or board to buy a new system.


Strategy 4: Always have a higher ratio of revenue projects vs. 
infrastructure projects.  Face the fact that GUI'izing you legacy 
application is an infrastructure project and will more than likely cost 
the company more than it gains.  Balance infrastructure projects against 
a larger number of revenue projects, or perhaps even rolling 
infrastructure changes into your revenue projects.  Stop doing those 
quick and dirty reports that everyone wants but don't generate any 
revenue or savings.


Strategy 5: Sell your U2 application to management.  YOU need to 
constantly market your "product" to management (but of course you really 
need to believe in it first).  By "product" I mean both your U2 
application and the services you provide to benefit the company.


rex

Jeff Schasny wrote:
> Unfortunately, its not always about the money. In many cases its about a
> change of  leadership where the new guy on top wants his own personal
> favorite software. I have been personally involved with at least 2
> instances where a new CFO has insisted that the ERP solution with which
> he/she/it is most familiar was instituted without regard for cost...
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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Allen Egerton]

Laurie Blain wrote:
> It was buzz at an Ardent Conference back in the 1999?
> I think some of that attitude is why many think they need to move
> off Unidata. But really in college back in 95 I heard that Cobol was a dead 
> language
> you can still find jobs with Cobol.

In 1981 I took a college course in COBOL.  At that time I was told that
it was on its way out.  It's 2009 and I have friends who are currently
employed as COBOL programmers, (and in demand).

-- 
Allen Egerton
aegerton at pobox dot com
PGP Key ID 0x8EA57261
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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Norman Bauer]

"I think it would be to our advantage if only businesses were in fact led
by rational intelligent people all the time but Enron, Global Crossings,
Bear Stearns, etc, etc, etc should be sufficient warning that they are not."

The best line I have seen on this thread thus far.

Really we are all human (even those PHB's) , are prone to errors and
blinded by our ambitions. Some make small mistakes that never get
noticed. Others make huge mistakes that have disastrous consequences.
It is well told story that plays out each and every day since the dawn
of human civilization. It is true that there is nothing new under the
sun (no pun intended with regards to Sun/IBM/Oracle).

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Jeff Schasny  wrote:
> Unfortunately, its not always about the money. In many cases its about a
> change of  leadership where the new guy on top wants his own personal
> favorite software. I have been personally involved with at least 2
> instances where a new CFO has insisted that the ERP solution with which
> he/she/it is most familiar was instituted without regard for cost, ROI,
> or the possibility of increased functionality. In another case a new CIO
> insisted that a relational database (Informix in this case) was the only
> way to go and after 5 years and 10+ million dollars they had managed to
> replace the AR & AP modules with no new functionality, more than
> quadruple the size of the IT department, and completely give up on the
> idea of replacing the businesses core application (alarm monitoring)
> because of the propensity for the new systems to crash on a regular basis.
>
> I think it would be to our advantage if only businesses were in fact led
> by rational intelligent people all the time but Enron, Global Crossings,
> Bear Stearns, etc, etc, etc should be sufficient warning that they are not.
>
> Rex Gozar wrote:
>> It's fun to think of UV as the underdog and how the cards are stacked
>> against us.  It's fun to be in the "I told you so" crowd when the
>> competitor fails.
>>
>> [stuff removed]
>>
>
> --
> 
> Jeff Schasny - Denver, Co, USA
> jschasny at gmail dot com
> 
> ---
> u2-users mailing list
> u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
>



-- 

Geeky sorcery at
My website http://normanbauer.info
Facebook http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=561250983
Twitter http://twitter.com/simulacra10
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[John Carter]

Amen to that. 

Too often ERP decisions are based on perceived 'Status' of the software
product by individuals that NEVER use it. It ends up being about keeping up
with the 'Jones' when sharing Executive war stories over martinis while
figuring out how much their Golden Parachute will provide when they are
finally jettisoned.

How many of us have dealt with this type of out of touch executive that
wants to blame the failed, late, overbudget (or all of the above)
implementation of the GEE WIZ software package on the 'Implementation Team'
or the 'Unsophisticated Users'?

John H Carter III
Impact Business Consulting Corporation
Office/Fax (858) 676-3406;  Cell (760) 497-5545
"Unlocking Your Potential"

 


-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Schasny
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:51 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

Unfortunately, its not always about the money. In many cases its about a 
change of  leadership where the new guy on top wants his own personal 
favorite software. I have been personally involved with at least 2 
instances where a new CFO has insisted that the ERP solution with which 
he/she/it is most familiar was instituted without regard for cost, ROI, 
or the possibility of increased functionality. In another case a new CIO 
insisted that a relational database (Informix in this case) was the only 
way to go and after 5 years and 10+ million dollars they had managed to 
replace the AR & AP modules with no new functionality, more than 
quadruple the size of the IT department, and completely give up on the 
idea of replacing the businesses core application (alarm monitoring) 
because of the propensity for the new systems to crash on a regular basis.

I think it would be to our advantage if only businesses were in fact led 
by rational intelligent people all the time but Enron, Global Crossings, 
Bear Stearns, etc, etc, etc should be sufficient warning that they are not.

Rex Gozar wrote:
> It's fun to think of UV as the underdog and how the cards are stacked
> against us.  It's fun to be in the "I told you so" crowd when the
> competitor fails.
>
> [stuff removed]
>

-- 

Jeff Schasny - Denver, Co, USA
jschasny at gmail dot com

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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Jeff Schasny]

Unfortunately, its not always about the money. In many cases its about a 
change of  leadership where the new guy on top wants his own personal 
favorite software. I have been personally involved with at least 2 
instances where a new CFO has insisted that the ERP solution with which 
he/she/it is most familiar was instituted without regard for cost, ROI, 
or the possibility of increased functionality. In another case a new CIO 
insisted that a relational database (Informix in this case) was the only 
way to go and after 5 years and 10+ million dollars they had managed to 
replace the AR & AP modules with no new functionality, more than 
quadruple the size of the IT department, and completely give up on the 
idea of replacing the businesses core application (alarm monitoring) 
because of the propensity for the new systems to crash on a regular basis.

I think it would be to our advantage if only businesses were in fact led 
by rational intelligent people all the time but Enron, Global Crossings, 
Bear Stearns, etc, etc, etc should be sufficient warning that they are not.

Rex Gozar wrote:
> It's fun to think of UV as the underdog and how the cards are stacked
> against us.  It's fun to be in the "I told you so" crowd when the
> competitor fails.
>
> [stuff removed]
>

-- 

Jeff Schasny - Denver, Co, USA
jschasny at gmail dot com

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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Laurie Blain]

It was buzz at an Ardent Conference back in the 1999?
I think some of that attitude is why many think they need to move
off Unidata. But really in college back in 95 I heard that Cobol was a dead 
language
you can still find jobs with Cobol.

Laurie Blain


--- On Tue, 4/21/09, Henry Unger  wrote:
From: Henry Unger 
Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Date: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 12:48 AM

Really. From whom did you hear that?

Henry

Henry P. Unger
Hitech Systems, Inc.
http://www.hitech.com

-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Laurie Blain
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:29 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

I heard that IBM bought Unidata and Universe to kill them off.
To their surprise many of us are refusing to let the U2 die.

Laurie
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[David Jordan]

I think it is quite simply, management do not understand technology.  They are 
risk averse and if everyone else uses a product, then it must be good.  It is a 
bit of the old days, you cannot get fired for buying IBM.

I don't think it is cost, or technical advantages that are winning the day, it 
is just simple confidence.  If something goes wrong, management and boards need 
to show due diligence to avoid litigation and to protect their job.  If we can 
get that message to the executive team, then we win the game.

Look at it like going in for major surgery.  If you are not a doctor, how do 
you assess the surgeon.  Your life is on the line and you are dealing with the 
unknown.  You listen to recommendations of friends, look at the large hospital 
for reputation, etc.  It is not so different to what non IT people do in 
looking at technology.

Regards

David Jordan
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Charles_Shaffer]

Sorry.  I made a typo.  It should say they could NOT get access to the 
systems not connected tothe Internet.


Charles Shaffer
Senior Analyst
NTN-Bower Corporation




charles_shaf...@ntn-bower.com
Sent by: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
04/21/2009 09:01 AM
Please respond to u2-users

 
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
cc: 
Subject:RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster


Speak of the devil.  Here's an example from today. 

"The Joint Strike Fighter project in the US, in which Britain's BAE 
Systems is a major partner has been infiltrated by hackers.   The Wall 
Street journal reported that the hackers thought to be from China siphoned 

off several terabytes of data related to the design of the fighter and 
electronics systems."

The problem isn't Windows.  WIndows is what it is.  It's the managers who 
have forgotten how to do their jobs because of the lax attitude in the 
industry now.  And I do blame Microsoft largely for that.

To Lockheed Martin and BAE systems credit, the hackers were not able to 
get everything.

"Sources told the Journal that while spies downloaded a lot of information 

about the Joint Strike Fighter they could _NOT_ get access to the most 
sensitive 
material stored on computers not connected to the Internet."

Charles Shaffer
Senior Analyst
NTN-Bower Corporation
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Charles_Shaffer]

Speak of the devil.  Here's an example from today. 

"The Joint Strike Fighter project in the US, in which Britain's BAE 
Systems is a major partner has been infiltrated by hackers.   The Wall 
Street journal reported that the hackers thought to be from China siphoned 
off several terabytes of data related to the design of the fighter and 
electronics systems."

The problem isn't Windows.  WIndows is what it is.  It's the managers who 
have forgotten how to do their jobs because of the lax attitude in the 
industry now.  And I do blame Microsoft largely for that.

To Lockheed Martin and BAE systems credit, the hackers were not able to 
get everything.

"Sources told the Journal that while spies downloaded a lot of information 
about the Joint Strike Fighter they could get access to the most sensitive 
material stored on computers not connected to the Internet."

Charles Shaffer
Senior Analyst
NTN-Bower Corporation
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Nick Gettino]

Amen!

Nicholas M Gettino | Director of Support & Professional Services |
EnRoute Emergency Systems, an Infor company | office: 813-207-6998 |
fax: 678-393-5389 nick.gett...@infor.com | www.enroute911.com
-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rex Gozar
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 9:18 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

It's fun to think of UV as the underdog and how the cards are stacked
against us.  It's fun to be in the "I told you so" crowd when the
competitor fails.

But it doesn't matter if the competitor wins or loses; the reality is
that another UV site has bit the dust.  WE LOST -- that's my real
concern.

What didn't happen to prevent this conclusion?  While it seems
politically correct to point the finger at incompetent management, or
ineffective vendor marketing, there's possibly another contributing
factor, one that we as a group seem reluctant to talk about... the fact 
that we (U2 professionals) have dropped the ball.  I can't help but 
think that if Shane Co. had a complete, cost-effective U2 application 
that supported all aspects of their business, there would have been no 
reason to move away from it to SAP.

Management doesn't really care about pretty pixels nor usability.  If 
that's what they're telling you, then they probably think they're doing 
you a favor by putting it in terms you can understand.

Ladies and gentlemen, it's always about money.  Being a group of 
experienced U2 business analysts, you'd think we'd know by now that it's

always about (a) increasing revenue, (b) reducing expense, (c) bringing 
in more customers, (d) getting more business from the customers we have,

and (e) reducing risk.  Every discussion with management must be framed 
exclusively in these terms.  Only then will management give you the 
right to contribute your opinion to a decision.  As a side benefit, they

will be wary of competitor salesmen that cannot articulate specific 
revenue and expense advantages.  Hard dollar figures, i.e. money, 
speaks louder than marketing.

You want to put a new GUI on that old application?  Management won't 
stop you if you can prove it will make money or reduce support cost. 
But don't be fooled; some bulls**t cost analysis won't buy you any 
credibility with management.  Don't expect management will do this 
analysis for you; if they could, they'd already be doing it.

Back to prevention -- it takes a very deliberate and thoughtful 
cost-justification strategy to build up your existing U2 application. 
You need to progressively add the features it needs to ward off attacks 
from SAP or other enterprise products.


rex
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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Rex Gozar]

It's fun to think of UV as the underdog and how the cards are stacked
against us.  It's fun to be in the "I told you so" crowd when the
competitor fails.

But it doesn't matter if the competitor wins or loses; the reality is
that another UV site has bit the dust.  WE LOST -- that's my real concern.

What didn't happen to prevent this conclusion?  While it seems
politically correct to point the finger at incompetent management, or
ineffective vendor marketing, there's possibly another contributing
factor, one that we as a group seem reluctant to talk about... the fact 
that we (U2 professionals) have dropped the ball.  I can't help but 
think that if Shane Co. had a complete, cost-effective U2 application 
that supported all aspects of their business, there would have been no 
reason to move away from it to SAP.


Management doesn't really care about pretty pixels nor usability.  If 
that's what they're telling you, then they probably think they're doing 
you a favor by putting it in terms you can understand.


Ladies and gentlemen, it's always about money.  Being a group of 
experienced U2 business analysts, you'd think we'd know by now that it's 
always about (a) increasing revenue, (b) reducing expense, (c) bringing 
in more customers, (d) getting more business from the customers we have, 
and (e) reducing risk.  Every discussion with management must be framed 
exclusively in these terms.  Only then will management give you the 
right to contribute your opinion to a decision.  As a side benefit, they 
will be wary of competitor salesmen that cannot articulate specific 
revenue and expense advantages.  Hard dollar figures, i.e. money, 
speaks louder than marketing.


You want to put a new GUI on that old application?  Management won't 
stop you if you can prove it will make money or reduce support cost. 
But don't be fooled; some bulls**t cost analysis won't buy you any 
credibility with management.  Don't expect management will do this 
analysis for you; if they could, they'd already be doing it.


Back to prevention -- it takes a very deliberate and thoughtful 
cost-justification strategy to build up your existing U2 application. 
You need to progressively add the features it needs to ward off attacks 
from SAP or other enterprise products.



rex
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Marc Harbeson]

ROTFL.

U2 is like a virus.  hehehehe

-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Anthony W.
Youngman
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 5:59 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

In message <461165.65382...@web58106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, Laurie Blain 
 writes
>I heard that IBM bought Unidata and Universe to kill them off.
>To their surprise many of us are refusing to let the U2 die.

I think the problem WAS (apparently the people involved have moved on) 
that the top people in the DB2 group (of which U2 is a part) were very 
heavily emotionally involved in DB2 itself.

They've now been replaced with people who are a bit more 
business-minded, and who realise that the U2 databases are valuable.

Maybe U2 will do an Informix on IBM (remember when Informix took over 
Ardent it turned into a reverse-takeover, and it was Informix that came 
off worse :-)
>
>Laurie
>
Cheers,
Wol
-- 
Anthony W. Youngman 
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The
man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site - <http://www.maverick-dbms.org> Open Source
Pick
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Marc Harbeson]

No, IBM purchased the U2 sisters to MAKE MONEY.  

U2 is a cash cow for IBM.

-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Laurie Blain
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 12:29 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

I heard that IBM bought Unidata and Universe to kill them off.
To their surprise many of us are refusing to let the U2 die.

Laurie


--- On Mon, 4/20/09, Colin Alfke  wrote:
From: Colin Alfke 
Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 7:35 PM

We have a Thomson Reuters logo on Mike Weir's cap - does that count??


Of course, I remember a story my old boss told me about a CEO he met at
a golf
tournament. Apparently he was crowing about the new $25 million SAP
system he
had just purchased. He had no idea what it would do for them, but it
could do
lots of cool things (of which he understood none).



Colin



> From: wphaskett

>
> Maybe a "U2 from IBM" logo on Tiger Woods' golf cap would be
helpful. :-)
> Bill
> __
>
> From: Glenn Sallis

>
> It's yet another story ...
>
> I have noticed over the years that SAP has been very heavily marketed.
>
> There is ...
>
> Glenn Sallis


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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Charles_Shaffer]

>> I'm seeing these anti-Microsoft arguments and it seems to me some
>> of you folks are missing the point.

I think you are skipping over my point.  If the control systems for the 
power grid are connected to the Internet through Windows based systems, 
then there is a serious security issue that could effect the national 
security of the US.  There is a place for Windows as a desktop personal 
productivity tool and none critical servers, but not in security critical 
systems.  It is made for ease of use and it is a hacker's paradise.  I 
would prefer to see a little known OS like VMS or even a proprietary OS 
designed exclusively for the power systems control used for these systems.

I would have hoped that the decision makers at the power companies would 
have thought of this, but it looks like maybe they didn't.  My opinions is 
that the influence of the lossy-goosy MS approach is negatively effecting 
the IT industry.

Charles Shaffer
Senior Analyst
NTN-Bower Corporation
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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Brian Leach]

All

I think we all neeed to recognize that IBM *could* have just sat on the 
products milking the revenue without adding any enhancements, trusting that 
sufficient users would never move off to keep a meaningful revenue stream alive.

To their credit, they have not.

We have seen new features, improved platform support, the creation of the U2 
Universities, podcasts and other moves in the right direction. Of course I 
would always like to see more (grin) but having the IBM name on the products 
has been a big plus and I'm very grateful that they have shown faith in the 
products - whatever the stories around how they acquired them.

Brian
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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Anthony W. Youngman]

In message <461165.65382...@web58106.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, Laurie Blain 
 writes

I heard that IBM bought Unidata and Universe to kill them off.
To their surprise many of us are refusing to let the U2 die.


I think the problem WAS (apparently the people involved have moved on) 
that the top people in the DB2 group (of which U2 is a part) were very 
heavily emotionally involved in DB2 itself.


They've now been replaced with people who are a bit more 
business-minded, and who realise that the U2 databases are valuable.


Maybe U2 will do an Informix on IBM (remember when Informix took over 
Ardent it turned into a reverse-takeover, and it was Informix that came 
off worse :-)


Laurie


Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman 
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Anthony W. Youngman]

In message <214234.57230...@web51710.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, Don Robinson 
 writes
Perhaps a bigger push into the open source space would help. I recently 
read that MySQL has a long history of bugs, like losing all your data, 
and some of them will not be fixed. Yet it remains the most popular 
free database.


For those who haven't been following the news, it's just been announced 
that Oracle are buying Sun. Sun bought MySQL a year or so ago. So what 
will happen to MySQL is debateable ...


Oh - and as for "bugs, and some of them will not be fixed", I doubt 
that's true any more. It *WAS* a deliberate design decision that MySQL 
was optimised to give a very fast read-only backend for things like web 
databases. It's now turning into a full-blown industrial-strength 
database.


We have a better mouse trap, why doesn't the world know it?


Because they've been conned by the "relational, it's maths so it must be 
right" mantra, without realising that the 12 rules underneath it are 
rubbish.


Just, my 2 cents worth.

BTW, I'm looking for programming work!
Universe, Unidata, jBASE, etc.
Linux, Aix, Windows, Mac.


So am I, unfortunately ... :-(

Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman 
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Henry Unger]

Really. From whom did you hear that?

Henry

Henry P. Unger
Hitech Systems, Inc.
http://www.hitech.com

-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Laurie Blain
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:29 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

I heard that IBM bought Unidata and Universe to kill them off.
To their surprise many of us are refusing to let the U2 die.

Laurie
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Laurie Blain]

I heard that IBM bought Unidata and Universe to kill them off.
To their surprise many of us are refusing to let the U2 die.

Laurie


--- On Mon, 4/20/09, Colin Alfke  wrote:
From: Colin Alfke 
Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 7:35 PM

We have a Thomson Reuters logo on Mike Weir's cap - does that count??


Of course, I remember a story my old boss told me about a CEO he met at a golf
tournament. Apparently he was crowing about the new $25 million SAP system he
had just purchased. He had no idea what it would do for them, but it could do
lots of cool things (of which he understood none).



Colin



> From: wphaskett

>
> Maybe a "U2 from IBM" logo on Tiger Woods' golf cap would be
helpful. :-)
> Bill
> __
>
> From: Glenn Sallis

>
> It's yet another story ...
>
> I have noticed over the years that SAP has been very heavily marketed.
>
> There is ...
>
> Glenn Sallis


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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Colin Alfke]

We have a Thomson Reuters logo on Mike Weir's cap - does that count??


Of course, I remember a story my old boss told me about a CEO he met at a golf
tournament. Apparently he was crowing about the new $25 million SAP system he
had just purchased. He had no idea what it would do for them, but it could do
lots of cool things (of which he understood none).



Colin



> From: wphaskett

>
> Maybe a "U2 from IBM" logo on Tiger Woods' golf cap would be helpful. :-)
> Bill
> __
>
> From: Glenn Sallis

>
> It's yet another story ...
>
> I have noticed over the years that SAP has been very heavily marketed.
>
> There is ...
>
> Glenn Sallis


_
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Tony G]

I wrote: 
> > Anyone who insists on doing everything with Microsoft 
> > tools is just as bad as someone who continually 
> > insists on getting their MV DBMS to do things that a 
> > DBMS was never meant to do

Glen responded:
> Whoah there.. Aren't you mixing up the fruit basket a 
> bit? MV is not just a data store (like MySQL) and it 
> makes sense in a lot of cases to integrate external 
> technology directly into MV.

I meant:
Anyone who insists on doing everything with Microsoft tools is
just as bad as someone who continually insists on doing
_everything_ inside their MV DBMS.

As you and most others well know, I have no problem getting MV to
do neat tricks from the inside or by integrating with the outside
world - that's what I do for a living.  However, I'm adverse to
making MV do everything just because it can (with enough bullying
and endless hours of effort) or because people are unaware of
external tools that are already well qualified to do specific
functions.  This is the "right tools for the job" mantra...

The ultimate point wasn't about what MV can or can't do but about
holistic statements intended to make people look stupid.
Posturing like that doesn't solve problems.  To get more out of
this discussion it would help (where possible) to take a closer
look at specific things people do or don't do in failed
migrations.

What we're seeing is that it's not "idiots who like Microsoft"
that are getting into trouble, there are just as many failed GUI
projects with Java and FOSS tools.  The problem is with people
making decisions without knowing where they're coming from or
where they're going to.  We find people aren't aware of the
capabilities of their MV application or of the extensibility of
the MV platform.  We find people are unaware of the feature-set
of new packages that simply look pretty.  We find people are
unaware of what it takes to put a GUI on an application (or in
many cases about what that really means).  We find people would
rather look for new business software than to put a new UI on
their existing app - and since it's the software and not the UI
that runs the business, the sheer stupidity of that notion seems
to require more discussion.  We find that upper management has
authority to make decisions about spending money when there is no
process for including feedback from the IT department in those
major decisions.  Is it any wonder that our economy is in the
tank due to an endless series of bad decisions?

When people say a project failed because someone likes one
technology or another, it completely misses other key points like
a requirement for due dilligence and accountability.  If there
were requirements for proper internal analyses and investigation
of alternatives, and true accountability for failure, then it
wouldn't matter what technologies people preferred or who plays
with whom on the golf course - better decisions would be made
because all evidence would (generally) point to the better
options.

This discussion is too deep for a forum, but the blame for failed
migrations goes to the very top levels of management and company
owners, not because they make bad decisions but because there are
no policies in place that stop people from making really stupid
decisions.  The issue is with process, not preference.

Tony Gravagno
Nebula Research and Development
TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Glenn Batson]

OMG.  That is hilarious.  Thanks for sharing.

-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Jacques G.
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:24 PM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

An IBM vendor went to a company I used to work for to try to get them to
dump their current Unidata database and switch to DB2, how much new and
better it was.  One of the advantages he listed was "IBM support".

So one guy in our IT department told him:  "You really don't know
anything about Unidata do you ?"
So the vendor asked him what he meant by that.

So he told him: "Unidata's an IBM product currently supported by IBM.
You didn't even know that.  What kind of credibility can you expect to
have in listing DB2's advantages Unidata if you didn't even know that ?
"   


It's not a good thing when a guy in a company bashes his own company's
product.   At least the guy had the sense to look embarassed.
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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Jacques G.]

An IBM vendor went to a company I used to work for to try to get them to dump 
their current Unidata database and switch to DB2, how much new and better it 
was.  One of the advantages he listed was "IBM support".

So one guy in our IT department told him:  "You really don't know anything 
about Unidata do you ?"
So the vendor asked him what he meant by that.

So he told him: "Unidata's an IBM product currently supported by IBM.  You 
didn't even know that.  What kind of credibility can you expect to have in 
listing DB2's advantages Unidata if you didn't even know that ? "   


It's not a good thing when a guy in a company bashes his own company's product. 
  At least the guy had the sense to look embarassed.
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Glen Batchelor]

> -Original Message-
> From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-
> us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony G
> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 4:14 PM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
> 

[chop]

> A "Microsoft-centric metality" is no better or worse than a
> "Linux-only" or "Mac-only" or even "MV-only" mentality.  Anyone
> who categorically closes their mind to all solutions based on the
> source is killing the messenger and not listening to the
> messages, whether they're good or bad.  Anyone who insists on
> doing everything with Microsoft tools is just as bad as someone
> who continually insists on getting their MV DBMS to do things
> that a DBMS was never meant to do (like building in an FTP
> server, HTTP client, or SOAP parser...).


 Whoah there.. Aren't you mixing up the fruit basket a bit? MV is not just a
data store (like MySQL) and it makes sense in a lot of cases to integrate
external technology directly into MV. I guess it's pointless, in the sense
of your statement, to even consider generating HTML from MV since it's not a
web scripting language? Heck, for that matter, what's the point of MV.NET
then? Why shouldn't we all just dump our data into flat files and use
"standard" tools with it?

[chop]

> 
> Tony Gravagno
> Nebula Research and Development
> TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com
> 
> Visit PickWiki.com!  Contribute!
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Glen Batchelor
IT Director
All-Spec Industries
 phone: (910) 332-0424
   fax: (910) 763-5664
E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com
   Web: http://www.all-spec.com
  Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com

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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[John Jenkins]

A common disconnect is to think of UniData and UniVerse as databases - they
are not.  MV databases are Application Servers with an integrated database. 

At least ONE major U2 consumer was headed off this route when they found out
a migration would have left them with a database - but no application.
Someone had (sort of) assumed that the application was separate from the
database.

I am sure others have headed down this route and carried forward as to admit
a misconception after committing . spending $100's would have been too
embarrassing - in both corporate and personal terms.

Post 'em - we love 'em.

Regards

JayJay



-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bob Utech
Sent: 20 April 2009 18:12
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

Rex's point that PHB's would do an ROI first is absolutely the correct
thing to do before jumping into a major conversion ... the fact is they
don't always ... and it doesn't matter what platform.

Keep in mind this was another large software/hardware migration ... just
not Universe.

A few years ago I worked as a senior programmer/analyst for a large
manufacturing company  where we needed to do a major upgrade OR migrate
to something different. We did do a software search & had 3 different
vendors in the running, including just upgrading to a later version of
the current vendor's product.

The decision was made to migrate to another vendor ... almost solely
based on the visual 'desktop/applicaton appearance' ... being a newer
Windows gui type look. 

Those of us in IT tried to give them an ROI,  but no one listened.
Upgrading the current software with both green screen and gui
applications that would have given them virtualy the same look & Windows
feel and would have cost $250k, and the conversion time would have been
a couple months at the most. Instead they opted for a different product.
The conversion took 9mos involving or whole IT staff, every other
project put on hold, and vendor consultants working hand in hand with us
... a huge effort, but we made it work successfully. The bottom line was
a price tag of 2.5mil, which prompted an independent outside audit of
the project. The audit revealed that IT managers, programmers, &
consultants were viewed as doing exactly what we were supposed to & we
hit the deadline timeframe.

The criticism from the audit pointed directly at the most top level
management CEO, CFO, & COO, making a bad decision by NOT listening to
their IT people at all during the review and decision process ... and by
the way, they still got their bonuses !! 

 


Bob Utech, Senior I.T. Coordinator
Information Technology Department
(218) 879-3321 ext. 2254
Visit RAM on the Web at www.rammutual.com 


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-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rex Gozar
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:21 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

I guess the basic premise of your argument is that the PHB's are
listening to 90-day-wonder windows programmers, and they encouraged said
PHB's that they needed to replace the UV database.

I don't buy it.

Even PHB's don't go spending millions of dollars on SAP just because
their 25 year old windows programmers don't think UV is productive.

In the case of Shane Co. the PHB's decided to spend millions of dollars
-- and no one bothered to do an ROI study?  Or it was fabricated by a
bunch of idiots without any concept of reality?

At some point, Shane Co. must have been doing good.  They were
expanding.  It seems a short time ago I heard they opened a new store
here in Orlando, FL.  (Or maybe they weren't doing that good after all
and the expansion was a feeble attempt at opening new markets to
generate revenue.)

During this expansion, one of the PHB's must have said "we AREN'T
getting what we need from IT; let's look into other solutions".  Or
maybe they said, "we CAN'T get wh

RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Tony G]

> From: Charles_Shaffer
> Hear hear.  And now that this Microsoft-centric 
> mentality has spread to management, I am concerned 
> that there will be serious consequences down the road. ...
> 2.  It was Windows-based. (Bad idea #2)...
 
> Charles Shaffer
> Senior Analyst
> NTN-Bower Corporation

I'm seeing these anti-Microsoft arguments and it seems to me some
of you folks are missing the point.

If someone migrates away from MV to SAP, it could be due to a
lack of understanding of MV and perhaps a blind bias toward SAP.
And that's a bad thing, right?  The anti-Microsoft sentiment here
shows a categorical bias, as though "all things Microsoft" are
bad.  Isn't that the same thing?

Biggotry is wrong no matter what side of town you live on, no
matter what church you go to, and no matter what technology you
prefer.

A "Microsoft-centric metality" is no better or worse than a
"Linux-only" or "Mac-only" or even "MV-only" mentality.  Anyone
who categorically closes their mind to all solutions based on the
source is killing the messenger and not listening to the
messages, whether they're good or bad.  Anyone who insists on
doing everything with Microsoft tools is just as bad as someone
who continually insists on getting their MV DBMS to do things
that a DBMS was never meant to do (like building in an FTP
server, HTTP client, or SOAP parser...).

If you want people to keep listening to you when you utter the
word Pick in a sales presentation (or to your own Management)
then perhaps you should reconsider your own bias when you hear
the word Microsoft or any other word at which you scoff without
further consideration.

And before people go and say "there goes that Microsoft weenie
again...", listen to the message here, don't categorically
dismiss the source - or once again you'll be completely missing
the point.  I use and sell Microsoft tools where they seem to
fit.  I've been through all of the others too and still use other
tools occasionally including Java and PHP.

Tony Gravagno
Nebula Research and Development
TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com

Visit PickWiki.com!  Contribute!
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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[doug chanco]

I worked for a company that bought another company to replace an 
existing product strictly because it has a "pretty interface"  by 
management.  The amazing thing was that they got several developers and 
support personall together to go over the system and see how it compares 
to ours (which was good) but that consisted of talking to the sales 
lmanager ady and hearing her tell us


"oh yes it does that ..."

amazingly we were not allocated time to actually see the system in 
action but rather to ask question if it could do "x"


after purchasing the system, we had a meeting with the president of the 
company and I asked how come we did not just put a GUI on our current 
system and was told


" we know you'll can do it BUT we cannot wait the 2 years it will take 
to develop"


well we rolled out the system to our first customer and a week later 
they rolled back to the old system because while it had a pretty 
interface it lacked over 70% of the functionality that the old green 
screen system had and 3 years later when I left the company we were 
still fixing it to make it as functional as the old system it was replacing.


The sales manager lady left a few months after we acquired the company 
laughing all the way to the bank I bet ..


dougc
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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Mecki Foerthmann]

I second that.

And don't forget those people who have been in the same company and the 
same office for over 20 years and still reminisce about the 'good old 
mainframe days'.

The first thing a new guy hears is, 'We don't like change here!'
Upgrading? Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
If you get a request, tell the requester that this is very difficult to 
do and could have all sorts of implications for the rest of the system.
Or even better, 'we can't make any changes because then we can't upgrade 
the software later, and therefore only the software vendor can make 
changes to the code.'

And of course at #1000 a day for their consultants it better be important.
If he or she still wants it, ignore it until they ask again.
If they don't, it obviously wasn't important enough anyway.
Users will find a way to solve their problems without IT, and in no time 
the whole business runs on spreadsheets because the stupid 'legacy' 
software is useless anyway.

And who's fault is that?

And then you get stupid software vendors who want to sell only their 
latest web-based, platform independent software product and tell 
management they will stop support for that old product soon and 
therefore they should rather not upgrade and buy their latest toy.


Or of course the old IT-manager retires and they hire a follower of the 
Church of Codd as replacement.


I've been around and seen it all.
It isn't always a PHB.

Symeon Breen wrote:

There can also be blame at the coalface as well - I know many "pick" guys
who really are dinosaurs and who bury their head in the sand if xml, web
services, web access etc are mentioned ...




-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Sallis
Sent: 20 April 2009 14:48
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

It's yet another story that makes people who know and understand the
multivalue database model cringe. Often one of the reasons for migrating
seems to be due to decisions being made upstairs by people who have not
bothered to consult the people with the knowledge to inform of the
technical realities and work involved in such a major change. 


I have noticed over the years that SAP has been very heavily marketed.
There is usually a reason for a product needing to be advertised ;-).
Just because a product has massive marketing muscle behind it doesn't
mean it's the bee's knees. I'm sure this story won't be the last
expensive disaster!

Glenn Sallis
Software Developer
Flextronics Logistics B.V
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[jpb-u2ug]

In our particular case the IS Manager, who was a Pick programmer retired.

Jerry Banker


-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rex Gozar
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:21 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

I guess the basic premise of your argument is that the PHB's are 
listening to 90-day-wonder windows programmers, and they encouraged said 
PHB's that they needed to replace the UV database.

I don't buy it.

Even PHB's don't go spending millions of dollars on SAP just because 
their 25 year old windows programmers don't think UV is productive.

In the case of Shane Co. the PHB's decided to spend millions of dollars 
-- and no one bothered to do an ROI study?  Or it was fabricated by a 
bunch of idiots without any concept of reality?

At some point, Shane Co. must have been doing good.  They were 
expanding.  It seems a short time ago I heard they opened a new store 
here in Orlando, FL.  (Or maybe they weren't doing that good after all 
and the expansion was a feeble attempt at opening new markets to 
generate revenue.)

During this expansion, one of the PHB's must have said "we AREN'T 
getting what we need from IT; let's look into other solutions".  Or 
maybe they said, "we CAN'T get what we need".  (The former speaking to 
an unwillingness to address needs; the latter, lacking capability to do so.)

And this brings me back to my original question: what was Shane Co.'s 
REAL reason for deciding to migrate away from UV?  If Universe is 
supposed to be a superior environment for building and deploying 
business solutions, why couldn't their existing IT staff deliver?  Why?

It's too easy to characterize management decisions like this as 
"frivolous" or "political".  But it's irresponsible to ignore the true 
business reasons behind these decisions, dooming ourselves to repeat 
history's mistakes.

rex

JPB-U2UG wrote:
> I can't speak for everyone but if it's anything like at our place, it's 
> due to lack of education. UniVerse is contains all of our business logic 
> and Microsoft is used for our presentation layer, desktop and web. We 
> have 3 programmers working on UniVerse with an average age of 55. In our 
> windows area we have 10 programmers with an average age of 25. Most of 
> the people coming out of the colleges and universities only know one 
> platform Microsoft. They are taught nothing...
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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Charles_Shaffer]

>> Even PHB's don't go spending millions of dollars on SAP just because 
>> their 25 year old windows programmers don't think UV is productive.

Rex,

Based on the results, I have to wonder if the PHB selected SAP before any 
kind of analysis was done and without the knowledge of how difficult 
implementations like this are, and in particular how demanding an SAP 
implementation is.  Then the ROI was done to justify the selection.  I've 
seen it before and based on the results, I have to wonder.

Charles Shaffer
Senior Analyst
NTN-Bower Corporation
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Bob Utech]

Rex's point that PHB's would do an ROI first is absolutely the correct
thing to do before jumping into a major conversion ... the fact is they
don't always ... and it doesn't matter what platform.

Keep in mind this was another large software/hardware migration ... just
not Universe.

A few years ago I worked as a senior programmer/analyst for a large
manufacturing company  where we needed to do a major upgrade OR migrate
to something different. We did do a software search & had 3 different
vendors in the running, including just upgrading to a later version of
the current vendor's product.

The decision was made to migrate to another vendor ... almost solely
based on the visual 'desktop/applicaton appearance' ... being a newer
Windows gui type look. 

Those of us in IT tried to give them an ROI,  but no one listened.
Upgrading the current software with both green screen and gui
applications that would have given them virtualy the same look & Windows
feel and would have cost $250k, and the conversion time would have been
a couple months at the most. Instead they opted for a different product.
The conversion took 9mos involving or whole IT staff, every other
project put on hold, and vendor consultants working hand in hand with us
... a huge effort, but we made it work successfully. The bottom line was
a price tag of 2.5mil, which prompted an independent outside audit of
the project. The audit revealed that IT managers, programmers, &
consultants were viewed as doing exactly what we were supposed to & we
hit the deadline timeframe.

The criticism from the audit pointed directly at the most top level
management CEO, CFO, & COO, making a bad decision by NOT listening to
their IT people at all during the review and decision process ... and by
the way, they still got their bonuses !! 

 


Bob Utech, Senior I.T. Coordinator
Information Technology Department
(218) 879-3321 ext. 2254
Visit RAM on the Web at www.rammutual.com 


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-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rex Gozar
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:21 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

I guess the basic premise of your argument is that the PHB's are
listening to 90-day-wonder windows programmers, and they encouraged said
PHB's that they needed to replace the UV database.

I don't buy it.

Even PHB's don't go spending millions of dollars on SAP just because
their 25 year old windows programmers don't think UV is productive.

In the case of Shane Co. the PHB's decided to spend millions of dollars
-- and no one bothered to do an ROI study?  Or it was fabricated by a
bunch of idiots without any concept of reality?

At some point, Shane Co. must have been doing good.  They were
expanding.  It seems a short time ago I heard they opened a new store
here in Orlando, FL.  (Or maybe they weren't doing that good after all
and the expansion was a feeble attempt at opening new markets to
generate revenue.)

During this expansion, one of the PHB's must have said "we AREN'T
getting what we need from IT; let's look into other solutions".  Or
maybe they said, "we CAN'T get what we need".  (The former speaking to
an unwillingness to address needs; the latter, lacking capability to do
so.)

And this brings me back to my original question: what was Shane Co.'s
REAL reason for deciding to migrate away from UV?  If Universe is
supposed to be a superior environment for building and deploying
business solutions, why couldn't their existing IT staff deliver?  Why?

It's too easy to characterize management decisions like this as
"frivolous" or "political".  But it's irresponsible to ignore the true
business reasons behind these decisions, dooming ourselves to repeat
history's mistakes.

rex

JPB-U2UG wrote:
> I can't speak for everyone but if it's anything like at our place, 
> it's due to lack of education. UniVerse is contains all of our 
> business logic and Microsoft is used 

Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Anthony W. Youngman]

In message 
<367f3b3911959c4da9991c00166f620c01b90...@euducex2.europe.ad.flextronics.

com>, Glenn Sallis  writes

It's yet another story that makes people who know and understand the
multivalue database model cringe. Often one of the reasons for migrating
seems to be due to decisions being made upstairs by people who have not
bothered to consult the people with the knowledge to inform of the
technical realities and work involved in such a major change.


Quite often because the existing system has been starved of resources...

The in-house UV system I worked on a few years back wasn't upgraded 
because management wouldn't let us, then they decided to outsource 
building its replacement. We could easily have done what the contractors 
did, we just weren't allowed to try.


Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman 
'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the
thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man
lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998
Visit the MaVerick web-site -  Open Source Pick
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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Scott Ballinger]

Dude, giyf.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointy-Haired_Boss

/Scott Ballinger
Pareto Corporation
Edmonds WA USA
206 713 6006
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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Charlie Rubeor]

"Pointy Haired Boss" from Dilbert.

- Original Message - 
From: "Brutzman, Bill" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 12:04 PM
Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster


> What does the acronym "PHB" stand for?
> 
> --B 
> ---
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[demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had 
a name of PGP.sig]
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Norman Morgan]

> What does the acronym "PHB" stand for?

Ask any Dilbert fan!  PHB is pointy-haired boss.


Norman Morgan <> nmor...@brake.com <> http://www.brake.com

Lottery: a tax on people who are bad at math.

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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Bill Haskett]

   Maybe a "U2 from IBM" logo on Tiger Woods' golf cap would be helpful.  :-)
   Bill
   __

   From: Glenn Sallis 
   Sent: 4/20/2009 6:47 AM
   To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
   Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

It's yet another story ...

I have noticed over the years that SAP has been very heavily marketed.

There is ...

Glenn Sallis
Software Developer
Flextronics Logistics B.V

-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of
charles_shaf...@ntn-bower.com
Sent: Montag, 20. April 2009 14:44
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

Hear hear.  And now that this Microsoft-centric mentality has
spread to management, ...   Can an easy to access system be
secure?  Isn't that an oxymoron?

Charles Shaffer
Senior Analyst
NTN-Bower Corporation

"JPB-U2UG" 
Sent by: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
04/18/2009 05:53 PM
Please respond to u2-users

To:     
cc:
Subject:    Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

... We have 3 programmers working on UniVerse with an average age
of 55.  In our windows area we have 10 programmers with an average
age of 25.

...

--
From: "Rex Gozar" 
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 4:38 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

I've been wondering why the Shane Co. felt the need ...
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Brutzman, Bill]

What does the acronym "PHB" stand for?

--B 
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Glenn Sallis]

It's yet another story that makes people who know and understand the
multivalue database model cringe. Often one of the reasons for migrating
seems to be due to decisions being made upstairs by people who have not
bothered to consult the people with the knowledge to inform of the
technical realities and work involved in such a major change. 

I have noticed over the years that SAP has been very heavily marketed.
There is usually a reason for a product needing to be advertised ;-).
Just because a product has massive marketing muscle behind it doesn't
mean it's the bee's knees. I'm sure this story won't be the last
expensive disaster!

Glenn Sallis
Software Developer
Flextronics Logistics B.V




-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of
charles_shaf...@ntn-bower.com
Sent: Montag, 20. April 2009 14:44
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

Hear hear.  And now that this Microsoft-centric mentality has spread to 
management, I am concerned that there will be serious consequences down 
the road.  I just heard that the US power grid control systems have been

hacked.  Imagine if the US were invaded and the power grid was taken
down 
at the same time.  I am only guessing but the fact that the system was 
compromised makes me think two things. 
1.  It is physically contected to the Internet.  (Bad idea #1).
2.  It was Windows-based. (Bad idea #2)   Can an easy to access system
be 
secure?  Isn't that an oxymoron? 

Charles Shaffer
Senior Analyst
NTN-Bower Corporation




"JPB-U2UG" 
Sent by: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
04/18/2009 05:53 PM
Please respond to u2-users

 
To:     
        cc: 
    Subject:Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster


I can't speak for everyone but if it's anything like at our place, it's 
due 
to lack of education. UniVerse is contains all of our business logic and

Microsoft is used for our presentation layer, desktop and web. We have 3

programmers working on UniVerse with an average age of 55. In our
windows 
area we have 10 programmers with an average age of 25. Most of the
people 
coming out of the colleges and universities only know one platform 
Microsoft. They are taught nothing about processing data, database 
structure, proper logic, or problem solving. They are not even being 
taught 
Unix anymore. I think the colleges are doing their students a disservice

because most businesses are still running other platforms for their 
business 
logic and only have windows as the presentation layer. This causes a 
problem 
because when the business wants to hire someone they don't have anything

except these 90 day wonders to choose from. The candidate has problems 
because they have never been taught how to use anything other than the 
windows tools. This isn't exclusive to U2, it's a problem with any of
the 
proprietary operating systems/products and anything on Unix/Linux. This 
gives the PHB's the mistaken impression that anything not windows is 
obsolete and they should scrap what they have and go towards all MS or 
anything else that looks pretty. The new programmers are more than happy

to 
get on board with the idea because most of them want to be working in
what 

they are taught. They don't know what business logic is and they think
it 
would be a walk in the park to switch. After all they were able to build

that web page, right? They, of course, forget that the data had to be 
there 
before they could present it. The PHB's find that there is a bigger pool

of 
willing low cost employees to choose from and force all of their people 
that 
actually know the business logic off the payroll. Then the nail is in
the 
coffin. The new programmers all of a sudden discover that there is 
something 
happening in the background that they were not aware of, they try to 
reproduce it but nothing seems to work the same as it use to. Pride
takes 
over and nobody wants to admit that they may have made a mistake. They 
don't 
notify the PHB's that there is a problem, they start panicking, they
don't 

want to rehire the employees they got rid of, so they hire some 
consultants 
that don't know the business logic any more than the people that are 
there. 
It's not the consultants fault they were expecting that someone at the 
company knew something about how the company operates. By the time all
of 
the problems come to light the company is on the brink of bankruptcy. 
Where 
does the blame go, the people that left were at fault for not giving the

youngsters all of the information they needed.

--------------------------
From: "Rex Gozar" 
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 4:38 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

> I've been wondering why the Shane Co. felt the need to migrat

RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Brenda Price]

In Jerry's case, you have IT director that has spent 10-20 years in
windows world, he doesn't like UniVerse and is not open to learning its
capabilities and the good tools that are in the market for it.  He went
to a IBM conference once and that was before I joined the company over 7
years ago. Add a young 20-30 something network administrator that knows
little about Unix/Linux and even less about UniVerse that is totally
against anything not Windows and a 20 something Windows programmer who
has said repeatedly that UniVerse is old technology and they bombard the
owner of the company, well you get the picture.  Add the fact that only
the IT director has a clue as to the business logic and what he knows
relates more to the product the company sells and supports which is
window's based then the business logic the drives the internals of the
business and the other 2 know very little.  It is a train wreck waiting
to happen and it did factor in on my decision to leave the company for
greener pastures.  Course better schools, warmer weather were the main
attraction and after 6 months I can honestly say, new company is great
to work for.

Brenda L Price
UniVerse Programmer
Rapid Response Team
Market America, Inc.
Greensboro, NC


> -Original Message-
> From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-
> us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rex Gozar
> Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 10:21 AM
> To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
> Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
> 
> I guess the basic premise of your argument is that the PHB's are
> listening to 90-day-wonder windows programmers, and they encouraged
> said
> PHB's that they needed to replace the UV database.
> 
> I don't buy it.
> 
> Even PHB's don't go spending millions of dollars on SAP just because
> their 25 year old windows programmers don't think UV is productive.
> 
> In the case of Shane Co. the PHB's decided to spend millions of
dollars
> -- and no one bothered to do an ROI study?  Or it was fabricated by a
> bunch of idiots without any concept of reality?
> 
> At some point, Shane Co. must have been doing good.  They were
> expanding.  It seems a short time ago I heard they opened a new store
> here in Orlando, FL.  (Or maybe they weren't doing that good after all
> and the expansion was a feeble attempt at opening new markets to
> generate revenue.)
> 
> During this expansion, one of the PHB's must have said "we AREN'T
> getting what we need from IT; let's look into other solutions".  Or
> maybe they said, "we CAN'T get what we need".  (The former speaking to
> an unwillingness to address needs; the latter, lacking capability to
do
> so.)
> 
> And this brings me back to my original question: what was Shane Co.'s
> REAL reason for deciding to migrate away from UV?  If Universe is
> supposed to be a superior environment for building and deploying
> business solutions, why couldn't their existing IT staff deliver?
Why?
> 
> It's too easy to characterize management decisions like this as
> "frivolous" or "political".  But it's irresponsible to ignore the true
> business reasons behind these decisions, dooming ourselves to repeat
> history's mistakes.
> 
> rex
> 
> JPB-U2UG wrote:
> > I can't speak for everyone but if it's anything like at our place,
> it's
> > due to lack of education. UniVerse is contains all of our business
> logic
> > and Microsoft is used for our presentation layer, desktop and web.
We
> > have 3 programmers working on UniVerse with an average age of 55. In
> our
> > windows area we have 10 programmers with an average age of 25. Most
> of
> > the people coming out of the colleges and universities only know one
> > platform Microsoft. They are taught nothing...
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Nick Gettino]

For the past twenty years we have been trying to get the multivalue
Vendors to advertise and market their products.  They never have had the
inclination to do that for a variety of reasons.

Microsoft on the other hand has spent literally 100's of millions if not
billions on advertising.  They have beat it into everyone for the past
20 years.  It is now a 'standard' to use Microsoft products in any RFP
we see in our business.  All the under 30's only know Microsoft (and  a
little Linux) so they don't want to support Unidata or Universe. (fear
of the unknown).

The biggest argument I have heard time and time again is that you need a
programmer to get the data out of Unidata or Universe.  Unfortunately in
many cases the database design was not made for reporting, so extracting
multivalue against multivalues is difficult and forget trying to use
subvalues.  So we as designers have done it to ourselves in many cases.
We all know that our databases are fast, reliable, more efficient and
more flexible than any other database.  

The other thing management says is that it is old.  (flat databases are
older but no one ever counters with that argument).

The ROI is almost never done properly either.  To add the staff
necessary to support Oracle or SQL is never put as part of the cost as
they already have people that are maintaining all their DNS and Exchange
servers, so they say they can handle the new system and they rarely if
ever are able to maintain it.

The bottom line is that SQL has become the 'standard' through out almost
every industry.  It doesn't matter that you can loose an entire database
and have to take days to rebuild it.  It doesn't matter that it can and
does get infected with viruses all the time.  It doesn't matter that the
cost of anti-virus software, firewalls, routers, encryption are all
add-ons to SQL, because if 'management' believes that they NEED
something new they will get it.

I could go on and on.   

Nicholas M Gettino | Director of Support & Professional Services |
EnRoute Emergency Systems, an Infor company | office: 813-207-6998 |
fax: 678-393-5389 nick.gett...@infor.com | www.enroute911.com
-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 10:25 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

There can also be blame at the coalface as well - I know many "pick"
guys
who really are dinosaurs and who bury their head in the sand if xml, web
services, web access etc are mentioned ...




-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Sallis
Sent: 20 April 2009 14:48
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

It's yet another story that makes people who know and understand the
multivalue database model cringe. Often one of the reasons for migrating
seems to be due to decisions being made upstairs by people who have not
bothered to consult the people with the knowledge to inform of the
technical realities and work involved in such a major change. 

I have noticed over the years that SAP has been very heavily marketed.
There is usually a reason for a product needing to be advertised ;-).
Just because a product has massive marketing muscle behind it doesn't
mean it's the bee's knees. I'm sure this story won't be the last
expensive disaster!

Glenn Sallis
Software Developer
Flextronics Logistics B.V
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Symeon Breen]

There can also be blame at the coalface as well - I know many "pick" guys
who really are dinosaurs and who bury their head in the sand if xml, web
services, web access etc are mentioned ...




-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Sallis
Sent: 20 April 2009 14:48
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

It's yet another story that makes people who know and understand the
multivalue database model cringe. Often one of the reasons for migrating
seems to be due to decisions being made upstairs by people who have not
bothered to consult the people with the knowledge to inform of the
technical realities and work involved in such a major change. 

I have noticed over the years that SAP has been very heavily marketed.
There is usually a reason for a product needing to be advertised ;-).
Just because a product has massive marketing muscle behind it doesn't
mean it's the bee's knees. I'm sure this story won't be the last
expensive disaster!

Glenn Sallis
Software Developer
Flextronics Logistics B.V
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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Rex Gozar]

I guess the basic premise of your argument is that the PHB's are 
listening to 90-day-wonder windows programmers, and they encouraged said 
PHB's that they needed to replace the UV database.


I don't buy it.

Even PHB's don't go spending millions of dollars on SAP just because 
their 25 year old windows programmers don't think UV is productive.


In the case of Shane Co. the PHB's decided to spend millions of dollars 
-- and no one bothered to do an ROI study?  Or it was fabricated by a 
bunch of idiots without any concept of reality?


At some point, Shane Co. must have been doing good.  They were 
expanding.  It seems a short time ago I heard they opened a new store 
here in Orlando, FL.  (Or maybe they weren't doing that good after all 
and the expansion was a feeble attempt at opening new markets to 
generate revenue.)


During this expansion, one of the PHB's must have said "we AREN'T 
getting what we need from IT; let's look into other solutions".  Or 
maybe they said, "we CAN'T get what we need".  (The former speaking to 
an unwillingness to address needs; the latter, lacking capability to do so.)


And this brings me back to my original question: what was Shane Co.'s 
REAL reason for deciding to migrate away from UV?  If Universe is 
supposed to be a superior environment for building and deploying 
business solutions, why couldn't their existing IT staff deliver?  Why?


It's too easy to characterize management decisions like this as 
"frivolous" or "political".  But it's irresponsible to ignore the true 
business reasons behind these decisions, dooming ourselves to repeat 
history's mistakes.


rex

JPB-U2UG wrote:
I can't speak for everyone but if it's anything like at our place, it's 
due to lack of education. UniVerse is contains all of our business logic 
and Microsoft is used for our presentation layer, desktop and web. We 
have 3 programmers working on UniVerse with an average age of 55. In our 
windows area we have 10 programmers with an average age of 25. Most of 
the people coming out of the colleges and universities only know one 
platform Microsoft. They are taught nothing...

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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Charles_Shaffer]

Hear hear.  And now that this Microsoft-centric mentality has spread to 
management, I am concerned that there will be serious consequences down 
the road.  I just heard that the US power grid control systems have been 
hacked.  Imagine if the US were invaded and the power grid was taken down 
at the same time.  I am only guessing but the fact that the system was 
compromised makes me think two things. 
1.  It is physically contected to the Internet.  (Bad idea #1).
2.  It was Windows-based. (Bad idea #2)   Can an easy to access system be 
secure?  Isn't that an oxymoron? 

Charles Shaffer
Senior Analyst
NTN-Bower Corporation




"JPB-U2UG" 
Sent by: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
04/18/2009 05:53 PM
Please respond to u2-users

 
To: 
cc: 
Subject:        Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster


I can't speak for everyone but if it's anything like at our place, it's 
due 
to lack of education. UniVerse is contains all of our business logic and 
Microsoft is used for our presentation layer, desktop and web. We have 3 
programmers working on UniVerse with an average age of 55. In our windows 
area we have 10 programmers with an average age of 25. Most of the people 
coming out of the colleges and universities only know one platform 
Microsoft. They are taught nothing about processing data, database 
structure, proper logic, or problem solving. They are not even being 
taught 
Unix anymore. I think the colleges are doing their students a disservice 
because most businesses are still running other platforms for their 
business 
logic and only have windows as the presentation layer. This causes a 
problem 
because when the business wants to hire someone they don't have anything 
except these 90 day wonders to choose from. The candidate has problems 
because they have never been taught how to use anything other than the 
windows tools. This isn't exclusive to U2, it's a problem with any of the 
proprietary operating systems/products and anything on Unix/Linux. This 
gives the PHB's the mistaken impression that anything not windows is 
obsolete and they should scrap what they have and go towards all MS or 
anything else that looks pretty. The new programmers are more than happy 
to 
get on board with the idea because most of them want to be working in what 

they are taught. They don't know what business logic is and they think it 
would be a walk in the park to switch. After all they were able to build 
that web page, right? They, of course, forget that the data had to be 
there 
before they could present it. The PHB's find that there is a bigger pool 
of 
willing low cost employees to choose from and force all of their people 
that 
actually know the business logic off the payroll. Then the nail is in the 
coffin. The new programmers all of a sudden discover that there is 
something 
happening in the background that they were not aware of, they try to 
reproduce it but nothing seems to work the same as it use to. Pride takes 
over and nobody wants to admit that they may have made a mistake. They 
don't 
notify the PHB's that there is a problem, they start panicking, they don't 

want to rehire the employees they got rid of, so they hire some 
consultants 
that don't know the business logic any more than the people that are 
there. 
It's not the consultants fault they were expecting that someone at the 
company knew something about how the company operates. By the time all of 
the problems come to light the company is on the brink of bankruptcy. 
Where 
does the blame go, the people that left were at fault for not giving the 
youngsters all of the information they needed.

--------------
From: "Rex Gozar" 
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 4:38 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

> I've been wondering why the Shane Co. felt the need to migrate away from 

> UV.
>
> * Was their IT staff unable to meet business requirements due to the 
> limitations of UV?
>
> * Was their IT staff to blame, rather than the UV database environment? 
> (i.e. understaffed, lack of skills, etc.)
>
> At any rate, it appears that either (or both) caused Shane Co. 
management 
> to look for a different solution.  Under the assumption "if it ain't 
> broke, don't fix it" I would think that management thought something was 

> broken, and they needed to spend money to fix it.
>
> Does anyone have any first-hand knowledge of the specifics?  Anyone care 

> to share their insights?
>
> rex
>
> John Hester wrote:
>> There were a few posts back in January about Denver jewelry retailer
>> Shane Co. and their disastrous migration from UV to SAP.  Today they're
>> starring in an eWeek slideshow about I.T. disasters:
> ---
> u2-users mailing list
> 

Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Brian Leach]

I think there are two other factors that come into play: technology and 
marketing.

I know of at least one site here in the UK who are committed to moving to SAP 
because they believed for a long time that UV was a dead platform. Why? Because 
for years they heard nothing to the contrary. They now know that is not the 
case, but it's too late: they've spent the dollars and they are committed to 
move. There are some great VADs and ISVs out there, but equally it's inevitable 
that there will be some channels that are uncommunicative and unresponsive - 
you'll get that in any industry. But since IBM's policy (outside the US at 
least) is to sell via VAD or ISV, if you're stuck with one of them that's bound 
to colour your view of the technology. Organizations like U2UG are there to try 
to counter these impressions, but sometimes it feels like swimming against the 
tide.

The second issue is the growth of technology that fools people into thinking 
that it can solve business problems for them, and thereby lowers the 
appreciation of the need to develop proper skill sets. Take Visual Studio for 
example: you can build applications at rapid pace using drag and drop to data 
bind to SQL data sources. Job done. Of course, anyone with any experience of 
writing real SQL based applications would freak at the lousy job the wizards do 
in automatically generating update statements, would despair at the lack of 
proper concurrency control, will steer away from the ugly datasets that scatter 
validation all over the shop.. but developers raised on these technologies are 
given the impression that the technology will do it all for them and so simply 
don't know any better.

(And don't even start me on BizTalk..)

Now, don't get me wrong. I like Visual Studio, I like C# and I use it on a 
daily basis. But like most on this list I've been around long enough to 
recognize at least some of its limitations, and the no-go areas for real world 
applications. I'll also admit the first client/sever applications I wrote were 
awful: luckily I have been fortunate enough to be able to learn from them. With 
the speed of new technology emerging, new markets offering cheap labour and the 
latest solve-all-your-problems wizardry always jumping at you, I wonder whether 
these new developers are getting that chance. However much I hate it, having 
been raised on ugly green screens and long winded hand coding at least gives a 
sense of the real work involved. Now we are coming towards the time when 'real' 
programmers - the people who taught many of us - are retired and it's that kind 
of perspective that is in danger of being lost. 

Brian
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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Bill Haskett]

   This is called the monkey syndrome.  It happens from the lowest lever in IT
   to the highest level in U.S. business.  Just take a look at the monkeys
   running Bear Sterns, Bank of America, General Motors, and the list just
   keeps on going.  So, we're doing nothing but breeding monkeys, trying to
   make every job a monkey job, then wondering why there are few good jobs
   around.
   This only ensures that jobs are held by monkeys or they go overseas, where
   monkeys  are in plentiful supply.  Have you ever wondered what that TV
   commercial is all about when it talks about CA software is designed to
   improve customer service.  What?!  Try calling Bank of America or any other
   bank or large company.  We get on the phone system from hell, where getting
   off is our only rational alternative.  Customer service is nothing more than
   an expendable expense.  :-)
   PHB's are only half the monkey equation.  Twenty-five year old monkeys are
   the other problem.
   God help us!  :-o
   Bill
   __

   From: JPB-U2UG 
   Sent: 4/18/2009 3:53 PM
   To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
   Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

 I can't speak for everyone but if it's anything like at our place, it's
 due to lack of education. UniVerse is contains all of our business logic
 and Microsoft is used for our presentation layer, desktop and web. We have
 3 programmers working on UniVerse with an average age of 55. In our
 windows area we have 10 programmers with an average age of 25. Most of the
 people coming out of the colleges and universities only know one platform
 Microsoft.
 They are taught nothing about processing data, database structure, proper
 logic, or problem solving. They are not even being taught Unix anymore. I
 think the colleges are doing their students a disservice because most
 businesses are still running other platforms for their business logic and
 only have windows as the presentation layer. This causes a problem because
 when the business wants to hire someone they don't have anything except
 these 90 day wonders to choose from. The candidate has problems because
 they have never been taught how to use anything other than the windows
 tools.  This  isn't exclusive to U2, it's a problem with any of the
 proprietary operating systems/products and anything on Unix/Linux.
 This gives the PHB's the mistaken impression that anything not windows is
 obsolete and they should scrap what they have and go towards all MS or
 anything else that looks pretty. The new programmers are more than happy
 to get on board with the idea because most of them want to be working in
 what they are taught. They don't know what business logic is and they
 think it would be a walk in the park to switch. After all they were able
 to build that web page, right? They, of course, forget that the data had
 to be there before they could present it.
 The PHB's find that there is a bigger pool of willing low cost employees
 to choose from and force all of their people that actually know the
 business logic off the payroll. Then the nail is in the coffin. The new
 programmers all of a sudden discover that there is something happening in
 the background that they were not aware of, they try to reproduce it but
 nothing seems to work the same as it use to. Pride takes over and nobody
 wants to admit that they may have made a mistake. They don't notify the
 PHB's that there is a problem, they start panicking, they don't want to
 rehire the employees they got rid of, so they hire some consultants that
 don't know the business logic any more than the people that are there.
 It's not the consultants fault they were expecting that someone at the
 company knew something about how the company operates.
 By the time all of the problems come to light the company is on the brink
 of bankruptcy. Where does the blame go, the people that left were at fault
 for not giving the youngsters all of the information they needed.
 --
 From: "Rex Gozar" 
 Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 4:38 PM
 To: 
 Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

 I've been wondering why the Shane Co. felt the need to migrate away from
 UV.
 * Was their IT staff unable to meet business requirements due to the
 limitations of UV?
 * Was their IT staff to blame, rather than the UV database environment?
 (i.e. understaffed, lack of skills, etc.)
 At any rate, it appears that either (or both) caused Shane Co. management
 to look for a different solution.  Under the assumption "if it ain't
 broke, don't fix it" I would 

Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[JPB-U2UG]

I can't speak for everyone but if it's anything like at our place, it's due 
to lack of education. UniVerse is contains all of our business logic and 
Microsoft is used for our presentation layer, desktop and web. We have 3 
programmers working on UniVerse with an average age of 55. In our windows 
area we have 10 programmers with an average age of 25. Most of the people 
coming out of the colleges and universities only know one platform 
Microsoft. They are taught nothing about processing data, database 
structure, proper logic, or problem solving. They are not even being taught 
Unix anymore. I think the colleges are doing their students a disservice 
because most businesses are still running other platforms for their business 
logic and only have windows as the presentation layer. This causes a problem 
because when the business wants to hire someone they don't have anything 
except these 90 day wonders to choose from. The candidate has problems 
because they have never been taught how to use anything other than the 
windows tools. This isn't exclusive to U2, it's a problem with any of the 
proprietary operating systems/products and anything on Unix/Linux. This 
gives the PHB's the mistaken impression that anything not windows is 
obsolete and they should scrap what they have and go towards all MS or 
anything else that looks pretty. The new programmers are more than happy to 
get on board with the idea because most of them want to be working in what 
they are taught. They don't know what business logic is and they think it 
would be a walk in the park to switch. After all they were able to build 
that web page, right? They, of course, forget that the data had to be there 
before they could present it. The PHB's find that there is a bigger pool of 
willing low cost employees to choose from and force all of their people that 
actually know the business logic off the payroll. Then the nail is in the 
coffin. The new programmers all of a sudden discover that there is something 
happening in the background that they were not aware of, they try to 
reproduce it but nothing seems to work the same as it use to. Pride takes 
over and nobody wants to admit that they may have made a mistake. They don't 
notify the PHB's that there is a problem, they start panicking, they don't 
want to rehire the employees they got rid of, so they hire some consultants 
that don't know the business logic any more than the people that are there. 
It's not the consultants fault they were expecting that someone at the 
company knew something about how the company operates. By the time all of 
the problems come to light the company is on the brink of bankruptcy. Where 
does the blame go, the people that left were at fault for not giving the 
youngsters all of the information they needed.


--
From: "Rex Gozar" 
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 4:38 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

I've been wondering why the Shane Co. felt the need to migrate away from 
UV.


* Was their IT staff unable to meet business requirements due to the 
limitations of UV?


* Was their IT staff to blame, rather than the UV database environment? 
(i.e. understaffed, lack of skills, etc.)


At any rate, it appears that either (or both) caused Shane Co. management 
to look for a different solution.  Under the assumption "if it ain't 
broke, don't fix it" I would think that management thought something was 
broken, and they needed to spend money to fix it.


Does anyone have any first-hand knowledge of the specifics?  Anyone care 
to share their insights?


rex

John Hester wrote:

There were a few posts back in January about Denver jewelry retailer
Shane Co. and their disastrous migration from UV to SAP.  Today they're
starring in an eWeek slideshow about I.T. disasters:

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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster

[Rex Gozar]

I've been wondering why the Shane Co. felt the need to migrate away from UV.

* Was their IT staff unable to meet business requirements due to the 
limitations of UV?


* Was their IT staff to blame, rather than the UV database environment? 
(i.e. understaffed, lack of skills, etc.)


At any rate, it appears that either (or both) caused Shane Co. 
management to look for a different solution.  Under the assumption "if 
it ain't broke, don't fix it" I would think that management thought 
something was broken, and they needed to spend money to fix it.


Does anyone have any first-hand knowledge of the specifics?  Anyone care 
to share their insights?


rex

John Hester wrote:

There were a few posts back in January about Denver jewelry retailer
Shane Co. and their disastrous migration from UV to SAP.  Today they're
starring in an eWeek slideshow about I.T. disasters:

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