Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 22:36:08 +0100 Dean Sas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 What contributions do you wish to make that you can't without having a leader? Funny you should ask this, because I was going to ask what I am about to ask as a new thread: 1. I have expressed on this list a desire to help out with the spreadubuntu web site project, but have no clue how to join that project 2. I have suggested today on this list that the marketing team set up an official project to start a letter-writing campaign to manufacturers or wireless adapters/cards that use proprietary drivers that they work out a way to make those drivers available to FOSS users but do not know what the next step should be to get this going as a project. 3. I posted some information today about Apple's new iPhome mobile Internet device and the fact that Google is planning to release an FOSS version. I feel that this is a very good marketing opportunity for Ubuntu as the people who buy the Google Android will gain exposure to FOSS and be prime prospects for a FOSS desktop. Given that the Android will more than likely be cheaper than the Apple version, we should see a lot of Mac and Windows users buying it. Same problem as #2. A leader would be the person to either set up the project, provide direction on how to set it up, especially for new people like me :-), or determine that the project is inappropriate for the team - if such a thing happens here. A leader would be the person to go ask questions like this. I have tried to find answers on both Launchpad and the wiki but with limited success. So any help you can provide would be much appreciated. - -- Peace! John -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIUEz1sTN+hz1Fu7URAvUQAJ4j57UzfHMYs0bpdyNTsogzGLLD0gCaAwLi cO66ixCLbMzCic0UaJUCzhA= =+0VD -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 John Botscharow wrote: On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 22:36:08 +0100 Dean Sas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What contributions do you wish to make that you can't without having a leader? Funny you should ask this, because I was going to ask what I am about to ask as a new thread: 1. I have expressed on this list a desire to help out with the spreadubuntu web site project, but have no clue how to join that project I think the first step is to write or find some software to run the site. Perhaps the source code to spread firefox is available and is suitably genericised or can be ubuntu-ised. 2. I have suggested today on this list that the marketing team set up an official project to start a letter-writing campaign to manufacturers or wireless adapters/cards that use proprietary drivers that they work out a way to make those drivers available to FOSS users but do not know what the next step should be to get this going as a project. I'd create a wiki page or two with: * Addresses to send the letters to. * A form letter that other people can copy and edit to fit their device and use their own words. Then announce it on the list, ask for feedback and remind people to feel free to edit the wiki page or mail the list with their own form letters (which can be then incorporated or added to the wiki page). It may also be worth dropping a note to UWN or the fridge about the campaign. 3. I posted some information today about Apple's new iPhome mobile Internet device and the fact that Google is planning to release an FOSS version. I feel that this is a very good marketing opportunity for Ubuntu as the people who buy the Google Android will gain exposure to FOSS and be prime prospects for a FOSS desktop. Given that the Android will more than likely be cheaper than the Apple version, we should see a lot of Mac and Windows users buying it. Same problem as #2. You probably did the right thing in mailing the list - perhaps other people will provide some ideas that can be actioned. There's nothing to set up (except possibly a wiki page for brainstorming) until we have some actionable ideas. A leader would be the person to either set up the project, provide direction on how to set it up, especially for new people like me :-), or determine that the project is inappropriate for the team - if such a thing happens here. A leader would be the person to go ask questions like this. I have tried to find answers on both Launchpad and the wiki but with limited success. So any help you can provide would be much appreciated. If you're struggling with something ask the list - someone will usually know. If people think a project is inappropriate, believe me on a mailing list people will soon make their thoughts clear. It's up to you whether you wish to persue the idea after judging peoples responses to see how much help you'll get. Cheers, Dean -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIUFTCeedO8dcp9nYRAllMAJ4sjT9Qt7xMVAiQO93wnjYSFnFAwACfVfiN ATWyRgT6hB5pZYb7qW+QEsI= =Kwqg -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
On 12/06/08 06:08, John Botscharow wrote: A leader would be the person to either set up the project, provide direction on how to set it up, especially for new people like me :-), or determine that the project is inappropriate for the team - if such a thing happens here. A leader would be the person to go ask questions like this. I have tried to find answers on both Launchpad and the wiki but with limited success. So any help you can provide would be much appreciated. I'm finding it more and more troublesome that the notion of a leader doing things for you exists. In the FOSS world which we operate individuals make their contributions and the collective benefits. If you feel a project is warranted and you wish it to come under the banner of the Ubuntu-Marketing Team, then the path to success most likely contains the following steps - which are most likely incomplete but at least a starting point. * Think of an idea. * Write it up. * Send the document to the team list. (Either as an email, or a link to a web-page.) * Ask for comment. * Update the document. * Ask for more comment - until such time as there is general agreement, or no strong opposition - apathy is always a problem. * Ask for assistance on how to implement your idea if the process is new to you. * Implement the proposal. * Profit! Initiative helps, that is, do your homework before asking - people here are not paid to do anything and are giving of their free time - like I am right now in responding to you. You may well think you need a leader, but in responding to you in the way that I am, I'm providing leadership, but I'm not claiming to be a leader - nor do I want to become your leader. You are free to contribute in the same manner. As I have said in the past, you underestimate the value that the team has for your contributions, but I suspect that you are burning bridges quite rapidly at the moment. Onto specifics: In the examples you raise, the FOSS solution is: 1. I have expressed on this list a desire to help out with the spreadubuntu web site project, but have no clue how to join that project Ask the list how you join the project. My Internet connection at the moment is extremely flaky (you just have to love ISP firmware upgrades), otherwise I'd point you at the project page and instructions on how to achieve this. 2. I have suggested today on this list that the marketing team set up an official project to start a letter-writing campaign to manufacturers or wireless adapters/cards that use proprietary drivers that they work out a way to make those drivers available to FOSS users but do not know what the next step should be to get this going as a project. The place to store such a project is Launchpad. You could ask in #launchpad how you might create a project, but I strongly suspect that you can just create one without reference to anything. Personally, if that were the case I'd ask for some feedback on its name and position in LP from the group before I took the initiative to make such a thing. After the project has been created, you could start adding content to it. Another approach is to draft some content and add it to the wiki. If you're unsure on how to do that, ask. 3. I posted some information today about Apple's new iPhome mobile Internet device and the fact that Google is planning to release an FOSS version. I feel that this is a very good marketing opportunity for Ubuntu as the people who buy the Google Android will gain exposure to FOSS and be prime prospects for a FOSS desktop. Given that the Android will more than likely be cheaper than the Apple version, we should see a lot of Mac and Windows users buying it. Same problem as #2. Well, you are free to market to whomever you wish. The team meeting agreed that we should be creating resources to assist the Ubuntu Community rather than the general public. If you wish to create a marketing plan to target the market you are advocating, then you are free to do so. If you contribute drafts to the list there will most likely be suggestions on how to improve the draft. Cheers, -- Onno Benschop Connected via Optus B3 at S31°54'06 - E115°50'39 (Yokine, WA) -- ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno.. |?..EBCDIC for Onno.. --- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno.. ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dean, The marketing part of all these projects I know pretty much what to do. What I do not know is how to 1) officially - the operative word here - join an existing project or 2) officially - again the operative word- start a new one - or do I not have the authority - operative word - to start one? In all my years of experience in the business world, those two options were only open to people in official - operative word - positions of authority. How does this work in the Ubuntu community in general and in the marketing team in particular? On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:42:11 +0100 Dean Sas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 John Botscharow wrote: On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 22:36:08 +0100 Dean Sas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What contributions do you wish to make that you can't without having a leader? Funny you should ask this, because I was going to ask what I am about to ask as a new thread: 1. I have expressed on this list a desire to help out with the spreadubuntu web site project, but have no clue how to join that project I think the first step is to write or find some software to run the site. Perhaps the source code to spread firefox is available and is suitably genericised or can be ubuntu-ised. 2. I have suggested today on this list that the marketing team set up an official project to start a letter-writing campaign to manufacturers or wireless adapters/cards that use proprietary drivers that they work out a way to make those drivers available to FOSS users but do not know what the next step should be to get this going as a project. I'd create a wiki page or two with: * Addresses to send the letters to. * A form letter that other people can copy and edit to fit their device and use their own words. Then announce it on the list, ask for feedback and remind people to feel free to edit the wiki page or mail the list with their own form letters (which can be then incorporated or added to the wiki page). It may also be worth dropping a note to UWN or the fridge about the campaign. 3. I posted some information today about Apple's new iPhome mobile Internet device and the fact that Google is planning to release an FOSS version. I feel that this is a very good marketing opportunity for Ubuntu as the people who buy the Google Android will gain exposure to FOSS and be prime prospects for a FOSS desktop. Given that the Android will more than likely be cheaper than the Apple version, we should see a lot of Mac and Windows users buying it. Same problem as #2. You probably did the right thing in mailing the list - perhaps other people will provide some ideas that can be actioned. There's nothing to set up (except possibly a wiki page for brainstorming) until we have some actionable ideas. A leader would be the person to either set up the project, provide direction on how to set it up, especially for new people like me :-), or determine that the project is inappropriate for the team - if such a thing happens here. A leader would be the person to go ask questions like this. I have tried to find answers on both Launchpad and the wiki but with limited success. So any help you can provide would be much appreciated. If you're struggling with something ask the list - someone will usually know. If people think a project is inappropriate, believe me on a mailing list people will soon make their thoughts clear. It's up to you whether you wish to persue the idea after judging peoples responses to see how much help you'll get. Cheers, Dean -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIUFTCeedO8dcp9nYRAllMAJ4sjT9Qt7xMVAiQO93wnjYSFnFAwACfVfiN ATWyRgT6hB5pZYb7qW+QEsI= =Kwqg -END PGP SIGNATURE- - -- Peace! John -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIUFfrsTN+hz1Fu7URAjq4AKCVUiWDUjcMhOscaPNJbUfyU0skTwCgieEc 7/4tBqXCi4qdYuQP/bH5rsw= =etdl -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 John Botscharow wrote: The marketing part of all these projects I know pretty much what to do. What I do not know is how to 1) officially - the operative word here - join an existing project or 2) officially - again the operative word- start a new one - or do I not have the authority - operative word - to start one? In all my years of experience in the business world, those two options were only open to people in official - operative word - positions of authority. How does this work in the Ubuntu community in general and in the marketing team in particular? Basically we're the wild west. You can do what you want, feel free to put projects under the Ubuntu Marketing team umbrella, it's a good idea to see what people think of the idea first and try to ensure no-one has strong objections to it though. In general the only kind of official thing you do to join an existing project is to click the Join this team button on Launchpad. In practice a launchpad team will rarely be needed for marketing stuff - they're mainly used for controlling access to version control repositories. In the OSS sense you generally join a team/project just by interacting with it enough. Cheers, Dean -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIUFrgeedO8dcp9nYRAjQVAJ9L75S3qPc/x8ujeO+ygnJRkHrYbwCcDQLp 0Onh6hxlgw9KEs41StmPupo= =XtgQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 06:38:26 +0800 Onno Benschop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/06/08 06:08, John Botscharow wrote: A leader would be the person to either set up the project, provide direction on how to set it up, especially for new people like me :-), or determine that the project is inappropriate for the team - if such a thing happens here. A leader would be the person to go ask questions like this. I have tried to find answers on both Launchpad and the wiki but with limited success. So any help you can provide would be much appreciated. I'm finding it more and more troublesome that the notion of a leader doing things for you exists. Onno. I have never asked anyone to DO anything for me. If that is how you interpret what I have asked on this list, then you and I have some communication difficulties to work out. Perhaps my questions needed to be worded differently, but what I have been trying to ask is HOW to do something and WHAT can I do - in terms of authority for the lack of a better word. This especially became an issue after the incident with the wiki and my articles. I am still reluctant to do much on the marketing wiki after that incident. but I will try again and see what happens The responses to my requests for help on how to do something have usually been some variation of just do it rather than the more specific instructions that I have finally gotten. I am sorry that I am not as familiar - hardly at all - with all things Ubuntu, but I am trying to learn it all as quickly as I can. It would be most appreciated if you, and everyone else, on this list, would keep in mind that I am a poor newbie who is trying hard to be a productive member of this team. This is where having someone who is a leader - the go-to-guy - would help. Someone who could take the new guy and show him the ropes. Even in a volunteer organization, that is a useful thing. I have been wanting to get this off my chest for a few days now and am glad to finally do so. And if I've burned bridges, to use your phrase, so be it. I'll just work that much harder to rebuild them. - -- Peace! John -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIUGKEsTN+hz1Fu7URAvBrAJ9l2fnrALmw8SAR587uOdsJs5DrCwCfaCvM U3FgvNc2XCxoQbg+yDxRXq8= =xzEZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
Well said John. I'll follow up to your email in more detail once I get to my desk. Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network -Original Message- From: John Botscharow [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 18:40:52 To:ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction, -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 06:38:26 +0800 Onno Benschop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/06/08 06:08, John Botscharow wrote: A leader would be the person to either set up the project, provide direction on how to set it up, especially for new people like me :-), or determine that the project is inappropriate for the team - if such a thing happens here. A leader would be the person to go ask questions like this. I have tried to find answers on both Launchpad and the wiki but with limited success. So any help you can provide would be much appreciated. I'm finding it more and more troublesome that the notion of a leader doing things for you exists. Onno. I have never asked anyone to DO anything for me. If that is how you interpret what I have asked on this list, then you and I have some communication difficulties to work out. Perhaps my questions needed to be worded differently, but what I have been trying to ask is HOW to do something and WHAT can I do - in terms of authority for the lack of a better word. This especially became an issue after the incident with the wiki and my articles. I am still reluctant to do much on the marketing wiki after that incident. but I will try again and see what happens The responses to my requests for help on how to do something have usually been some variation of just do it rather than the more specific instructions that I have finally gotten. I am sorry that I am not as familiar - hardly at all - with all things Ubuntu, but I am trying to learn it all as quickly as I can. It would be most appreciated if you, and everyone else, on this list, would keep in mind that I am a poor newbie who is trying hard to be a productive member of this team. This is where having someone who is a leader - the go-to-guy - would help. Someone who could take the new guy and show him the ropes. Even in a volunteer organization, that is a useful thing. I have been wanting to get this off my chest for a few days now and am glad to finally do so. And if I've burned bridges, to use your phrase, so be it. I'll just work that much harder to rebuild them. - -- Peace! John -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIUGKEsTN+hz1Fu7URAvBrAJ9l2fnrALmw8SAR587uOdsJs5DrCwCfaCvM U3FgvNc2XCxoQbg+yDxRXq8= =xzEZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
John Botscharow wrote: The marketing part of all these projects I know pretty much what to do. What I do not know is how to 1) officially - the operative word here - join an existing project or 2) officially - again the operative word- start a new one - or do I not have the authority - operative word - to start one? In all my years of experience in the business world, those two options were only open to people in official - operative word - positions of authority. How does this work in the Ubuntu community in general and in the marketing team in particular? Joining a Team (like the Marketing Team) is done officially through launchpad, but for most teams, you can still participate without being an official part of the team. This is done by browsing to the LP page, and then asking to join from there. Joining/Creating a Project is (unless we set up some additional red tape) completely unofficial. I went over a reasonable (although not set in stone) method for creating a project in my other email (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-marketing/2008-June/003277.html). To participate (I'm going to use that term instead of 'join') in a project, get familiar with it, contact the people who are currently involved in it (there may, or may not, be any official/unofficial 'lead'), and ask them how you might best help, or how you'd like to help. This varies a lot depending on the project, and in some cases, you could just start participating without any contact at all. Neal Bussett -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Neal, Thanks for both messages and all the good advice. This is going to take a little getting used to. My own experience and preferences are oriented to a more structured environment. This strikes me as quite chaotic, but then, IMHO, the whole universe, and especially us humans, are quite chaotic LOL so I expect I'll get used to it. Thanks again. On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:23:01 -0700 Neal Bussett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Botscharow wrote: The marketing part of all these projects I know pretty much what to do. What I do not know is how to 1) officially - the operative word here - join an existing project or 2) officially - again the operative word- start a new one - or do I not have the authority - operative word - to start one? In all my years of experience in the business world, those two options were only open to people in official - operative word - positions of authority. How does this work in the Ubuntu community in general and in the marketing team in particular? Joining a Team (like the Marketing Team) is done officially through launchpad, but for most teams, you can still participate without being an official part of the team. This is done by browsing to the LP page, and then asking to join from there. Joining/Creating a Project is (unless we set up some additional red tape) completely unofficial. I went over a reasonable (although not set in stone) method for creating a project in my other email (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-marketing/2008-June/003277.html). To participate (I'm going to use that term instead of 'join') in a project, get familiar with it, contact the people who are currently involved in it (there may, or may not, be any official/unofficial 'lead'), and ask them how you might best help, or how you'd like to help. This varies a lot depending on the project, and in some cases, you could just start participating without any contact at all. Neal Bussett - -- Peace! John -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIUJjWsTN+hz1Fu7URAlwTAJ9GLs6ZSLKa9A9f5dqcQNAuJgN+iQCbB1ck kCezW56fWWAhAGTzNOEb8pk= =Ffea -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
On Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 08:22:20PM -0500, John Botscharow wrote: Have you considered or tried speech generation? I have used voice chat on other chat programs, but not in Linux. Not sure how to set it up and it would only work if everyone in the room used it :o) That's probably asking a bit much. There exists software to turn the text that other people are sending into speech. I'm not sure how well it'll keep up with IRC but might help (and it is probably worth slowing meetings down so that it could keep up if it can't). http://live.gnome.org/Orca Robert Robert McWilliam [EMAIL PROTECTED]www.ormiret.com Instructions should be read first, or not at all. Anything else is admitting defeat... -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:25:23 +0100 Robert McWilliam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 08:22:20PM -0500, John Botscharow wrote: Have you considered or tried speech generation? I have used voice chat on other chat programs, but not in Linux. Not sure how to set it up and it would only work if everyone in the room used it :o) That's probably asking a bit much. There exists software to turn the text that other people are sending into speech. I'm not sure how well it'll keep up with IRC but might help (and it is probably worth slowing meetings down so that it could keep up if it can't). http://live.gnome.org/Orca Robert Robert McWilliam [EMAIL PROTECTED]www.ormiret.com Instructions should be read first, or not at all. Anything else is admitting defeat... Robert, TYV M I will install orca and give it try BTW. I like your signature :-) Very true! - -- Peace! John -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFITjsqsTN+hz1Fu7URAhODAKDLlHa301cYqHxDlM36nVln9xY/CQCdGJM4 R6GqPBgh4jKxthoBAKgsZ9k= =4dlw -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction, please]]
Hi, I share your view Bruno. The meeting was definitely a success in those points, and it was getting very long indeed, I was starting to get fed up to the end, as a couple of others I believe. But I must admit that, having thought about it a lot, John is perfectly right also, concerning the need of a core marketing group, the kernel as he nicely put it during the meeting ;-). Was it a mistake, a big loss, not to have defined it two days ago? I think not. It is not good to precipitate these things, maybe John was ready and had his ideas clear about this need, but visibly it was not the case for all of us. Now, I can say that I am not only half agreeing, but fully behind the suggestion of a framing (I feel this expression better than leading...) core group for the team. Yes, the people that discussed on IRC that day are absolutely necessary if we want things to move on. (I would like to make it clear that I am not talking of _one_ leader, but a group, indeed similar to the people that were on IRC.) Furthermore, I also believe that we _can_ touch the world with our marketing. Also, you are right in saying that we do not only have to set up this infrastructure, but also have a strong *creating* role, we have to, as you said; develop the marketing tools for the LoCos to use. Everything from release party guides to how to talk to a Windows user to how to market in general.. But there we have a question of priorities we are setting ourselves! In my opinion, as I made it clear with Hubuntu during the meeting, it is most important and necessary to set up the said infrastructure, in order to centralize all existing resources (more than you'd think!). But I cannot deny the other mission we have, and that some of us will feel much more committed to it, and will be more effective in this role. To solve our dilemma, if we don't agree on our primary objective, I feel that (until SU is set up and running!) we are to create two distinct work groups in the team, which will raise our efficiency at its highest. This is what I study, at HEC Management school in Liège (similar to the one in Paris), and this is one thing I can assure you: It is more effective and productive to have two motivated work groups rather than pulling the whole team into a direction, that not all feel to be the priority. This does not, at all, interfere with the organisation and structure of the core marketing group, that should imperatively keep the one-team structure as its reality. If we have to nominate two work group contacts, fine, I think that this might be necessary for the same reasons we need a core team. Before I finish, I would like to point out that my views on group dynamics and email (as Onno said) are not the same either, I find the current way of functioning very effective for the moment. If I can give you some advice... I also had it very hard with XChat (don't know which client you are using) and I instantly *loved* IRC when I discovered Konversation, it is the only KDE program I run... I felt it much more gentle with my eyes. But this is a very personal opinion, and not an invitation to debate, just saying how I solved my IRC-hurts-my-eyes problem. Wishing you all a nice day, Pierre Vorhagen, pep. Bruno Barrera Yever a écrit : I have to disagree. Even though the meeting did not decide a leader, or any kind of leadership role, the marketing team can still survive and progress. The use of SU was decided, and to post the future content of SU in the wiki was also decided. Improvements for the wiki were also decided. The marketing team itself was defined to some extent, which imho is a great improvement. Also, the meeting was getting way too long, and the team structure is something that has to be extensively discussed. I would, rather then get frustrated, be satisfied, that the meeting actually served a purpose and was not just 3 hours of talking for nothing. On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 10:15 PM, John Botscharow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 It seems I sent the email I just apologized for from the wrong address, Not my day, I guess. Here us my reply to Onno as I originally intended it to look.bers. Onno Benschop wrote: My responses are interspersed below with relevant quotes from Onno's message This message is being sent to the list because I believe in open communication - even though some of the content is specifically for you. That is the reason I posted the article to the list, and I was really hoping you would reply. Your article is a very interesting take on your participation with Ubuntu and the Ubuntu-Marketing team and for it's thorough and thought out content I thank you. To complete the social amenities, you are most welcome and I appreciate the effort you put into your reply You raise some interesting points about perceptions and reality. Yes, I believe
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction, please]]
On 09/06/08 11:15, John Botscharow wrote: People like yourself who have little or no experience with Windows have very different perceptions of how virtually reality works. You've probably never had to spend hundreds of dollars having your hard drive cleaned of trojans and viruses or had to completely replace the hard drive or even your computer because of them. Well, I've been in this industry since the early 1980's and it would be wrong to think that I've not had Windows experience - to be fair, I suspect I've seen more of the beast than you might have - I came into computers when there was no such thing as an IBM, my first computer was a Commodore Vic 20 and by the time I purchased it I had already spent a year programming Apple ][ computers in 6502 assembly. I've owned Macintoshes, Windows NT4 PCs and a Sun Sparc Station, and used, supported and fixed many others. I continue to provide support to my end users who have gone through all of your pain as well. So it would be wrong to suggest that I have little or no experience with Windows - far from it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not insulted in any way by your comment, just that when I make a point about something, it's with a long background in this industry with the experience of being a both a radio broadcaster and producer, an IT help-desk operator and team leader, a software developer, an IT trainer and a web-developer. I started playing with databases in the dBase II era and wrote sales management systems back in the days of the Summer Edition of Clipper (for those with a sense of nostalgia :) (That was a tad longer than I intended, but being concise has never been a strong point - I'm working on it.) The other point I'd like to make is that I have to disagree with your perception of progress. I've seen many meetings that descend into rabble without any decisions being made, no common ground being reached and little or no progress having been made - our 2 and a half hour marathon session achieved lots more than I dared hope for. It was a concious decision on my part to leave the Team Structure to the end (following in the order that the Agenda dictated, I might add) and my proposal during the meeting would have been not to elect anyone if an election were called because I do not think there is enough information available to determine what backgrounds people are coming from. The single thing I would like to achieve is that the marketing team does not stagnate as it appears to have done in the past. From my perception (that word again :) the team has gone through several resurrections and I would love to understand what caused each of those to happen - so we have a chance of avoiding those pitfalls. I have about six years experience in the FOSS world and I must say that the most wonderful working environments I've stumbled upon are those where there is a group consensus about what needs to be done. Individuals are honoured for their hard work and contributions, but progress is made through discussion and agreement. That way everyone is pulling in the same direction. Leadership is all good and well, but as soon as the leader falls by the wayside, everything has a good chance of stopping, however with a group approach, discussions might well take a little longer, but everyone owns the progress and belongs to the implementation. So, again, I applaud your ongoing contributions, its through those that we will eventually come to a common understanding. Remember, Ubuntu has one Benevolent Dictator For Life - BDFL - and really only as I see it to make arbitration decisions - mind you, I've no evidence to backup that statement, but it's one of perception. Finally, you could think of leadership in another way, that is, the Ubuntu-Marketing is providing marketing leadership by using best practice and central resources which it makes available to the Ubuntu Community. Go forth and market :) -- Onno Benschop Connected via Optus B3 at S31°54'06 - E115°50'39 (Yokine, WA) -- ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno.. |?..EBCDIC for Onno.. --- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno.. ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction, please]]
Pierre Vorhagen wrote: [...] Before I finish, I would like to point out that my views on group dynamics and email (as Onno said) are not the same either, I find the current way of functioning very effective for the moment. I too, think it is very useful If I can give you some advice... I also had it very hard with XChat (don't know which client you are using) and I instantly *loved* IRC when I discovered Konversation, it is the only KDE program I run... I felt it much more gentle with my eyes. But this is a very personal opinion, and not an invitation to debate, just saying how I solved my IRC-hurts-my-eyes problem. I would have liked to use konversation but I could not get it configured, and I tried a day or so previously too. I also tried pidgin, again I did not know enough to configure it to work. However, I found that xchat configured almost automatically (relief) and was easy to use. However, but was horrible to read, very unpleasant visually, so I will be continuing to try to find out how to configure konversation, or alt least something else -- alan cocks Kubuntu user#10391 -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction, please]]
(sorry for double mail alan, forgot to send the list) I know this is not the exact topic, but since we started, it might help others from the list and thus better internal communication... alan c wrote : I would have liked to use konversation but I could not get it configured, and I tried a day or so previously too. I also tried pidgin, again I did not know enough to configure it to work. However, I found that xchat configured almost automatically (relief) and was easy to use. However, but was horrible to read, very unpleasant visually, so I will be continuing to try to find out how to configure konversation, or alt least something else You might want to modify XChat appearance, the font, color and style can be modified in the preferences, and here is a list of themes you can try: http://www.xchat.org/themes.html (there are probably others on the web). If you want to give another try to configuring Konversation: /query pep on freenode and I'll be glad to help. Pierre -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction, please]]
Onno Benschop wrote: [...] wonderful working environments I've stumbled upon are those where there is a group consensus about what needs to be done. Individuals are honoured for their hard work and contributions, but progress is made through discussion and agreement. That way everyone is pulling in the same direction. Leadership is all good and well, but as soon as the leader falls by the wayside, everything has a good chance of stopping, however with a group approach, discussions might well take a little longer, but everyone owns the progress and belongs to the implementation. Yes indeed. If leading ideas and actions emerge, great, I will follow them. The same with inspiration too. I do not need an 'elected' leader for this, it might even reduce something. [...] Finally, you could think of leadership in another way, that is, the Ubuntu-Marketing is providing marketing leadership exactly Go forth and market :) I like it! -- alan cocks Kubuntu user#10391 Linux user #360648 -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 RE: IRC Chat issues For me, the problem is not one of configuration, but rather the speed of the conversation I used to be a speed reader, but now I have to read quite slowly because of my vision problems - macular degeneration to be specific. I literally have a hole in my vision and need to read everything slowly to be sure I do not miss anything. IRC works well for me for one-on-one conversations but anything more than that, I cannot read fast enough to keep up. And the fact that I am not a speed typist only compounds the issue The color scheme on XChat is usable, not perfect, but I think I can fix that with a little playing around in the preferences, but that will still not fix the real issue. At the meeting there were numerous instances where I would have liked to contributed my comments but the conversation went by so fast, that by the time I got something typed we had already gone on to the next topic. I don't think there is a software fix for my problem, but not being an expert in software, I could be wrong. If anyone has any suggestions I am open to them. Just for the record, I am using Xubuntu 8.04 on a small HP Pavilion Slimline with 512 Megs of RAM, a 1.75 MHz Pentium III O think. I use the Xfce4 dusk theme because that gives me, pretty much, the color scheme I need to see things well. I have tried using KDE apps, even a full-blown Kubuntu desktop, but have never gotten the color scheme even close to what I need. IMHO, IRC does not work for large group dynamics. We need some sort of meeting room software like my son;s former online school uses for their study halls and club meetings. I can't recall the name of the script off the top of my head, but people had to raise their hands in order to speak and the room was somewhat moderated in order to give everyone a fair chance to talk. It was web based and involved a small Java applet download. The pace was much slower, and more organized - less of a free for all. - - Peace! John -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFITQSj3oYFui6B2koRAhIYAKCVpjyaIg9bLj/Y2OyPK/+AporeVQCdE1V0 RGQx6VeHQoIBQN4+zgpnGLs= =hHnU -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Onno Benschop wrote: So it would be wrong to suggest that I have little or no experience with Windows - far from it. Well, I was basing my comments on what you said. Obviously that interpretation was wrong and I apologize. Don't get me wrong, I'm not insulted in any way by your comment, just that when I make a point about something, it's with a long background in this industry with the experience of being a both a radio broadcaster and producer, an IT help-desk operator and team leader, a software developer, an IT trainer and a web-developer. I started playing with databases in the dBase II era and wrote sales management systems back in the days of the Summer Edition of Clipper (for those with a sense of nostalgia :) My own experience goes back to 1983 when I went to work for a large civic organization in Chicago as the administrative assistant for a program that coordinated corporate volunteers and material donations to small grass roots organizations. I have used computers ever since. The point that I was trying to make is that my experience and yours are very different and that gives us a very different perspective on things. And I think my experience is closer to that of the people we need to target than yours or many others in the Ubuntu community. A very small percentage of Windows users have the level of technical expertise that you do. And that is something that, IMHO, is something that the discussions on this list seem to not take into account in any substantive manner. (That was a tad longer than I intended, but being concise has never been a strong point - I'm working on it.) I got you beat by a mile on that LOL The other point I'd like to make is that I have to disagree with your perception of progress. I've seen many meetings that descend into rabble without any decisions being made, no common ground being reached and little or no progress having been made - our 2 and a half hour marathon session achieved lots more than I dared hope for. It did achieve a lot, no argument there, but, IMHO, it did not achieve enough. I am beginning to think that our basic difference is that I feel a sense of urgency about this team that you do not. I want us to go forth and market - as you so neatly put it - but we cannot until this team has both direction and structure. - heart and brain. We now have the heart, but we need our brain. The single thing I would like to achieve is that the marketing team does not stagnate as it appears to have done in the past. Yes, and that is why we need both a heart and brain. We will stagnate until we have both. And, my sense of urgency says that postponing things is going to hurt us big time. From my perception (that word again :) the team has gone through several resurrections and I would love to understand what caused each of those to happen - so we have a chance of avoiding those pitfalls. I have a theory, but you may not like it:-) A lack of a formal leadership structure. Specific offices that are filled as they become vacant. Consensus requires what Max Weber, the great German sociologist, called charismatic authority - like, to use my favorite example. Jesus during his lifetime. But once that charismatic leader is gone, the community stagnates. until a new charismatic leader comes along, St. Paul for instance. It was not until the appointment of the original group of presbyters (bishops) that the early Church had anything resembling a sense of permanence. Finally, you could think of leadership in another way, that is, the Ubuntu-Marketing is providing marketing leadership by using best practice and central resources which it makes available to the Ubuntu Community. That is EXACTLY how I see the leadership role of the team. What concerns me is the leadership within the team. We cannot lead Ubuntu marketing until we have some leadership of our own to keep us on track and moving forward. To use the analogy of the early Church again, Christianity did not become a force, and ultimately the guiding force, in the Roman Empire until it established its own leadership structure that existed outside of the people who held those roles. Then look what it accomplished. And for those on this team who are not Christians, every major religion has similar history. - -- Peace! John -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFITQ2N3oYFui6B2koRAv4lAJ9jlEJgvmJBp8ezKtPnkEufaYWg9QCg7gWU 36ItXhwV1gShcEAnW/wCisQ= =R5oU -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 VidA wrote: On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 12:01 PM, John Botscharow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: erm... without meaning to digress, mine[1] does not. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanatana_Dharma Actually, if I remember correctly, and it has been awhile since I read Weber on Hinduism, he did apply that particular theoretical construct to explain certain phenomena and beliefs particular to Hinduism Charisma/bureaucracy is an explanaory tool and it does help explain certain religious social phenomena quite well I have found it quite useful in talking about the history of heresy in Christianity as well as my discussions of politics. I have not had cause to use it on Hinduism yet, but I can think of several areas related to Hindu social dynamics where it would work quite well, but that is not appropriate for this list, so, I won't go into details here. - -- Peace! John -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFITS2T3oYFui6B2koRAmFrAJ0d0755/RgSkgxp01ZQlCkBDqCwNwCg6UMm n1llPJF5HdzK0GvFWpwjpe8= =Qbi0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
True, keep religion out of the analogy equation. FLOSS and specially the ubuntu community is far from being a totalitarian, Top-down movement. In this community we have outlined a specific code of conduct for person with responsabilities within the group. Summarized: * lead by example * do the dirty job * include everyone * be considerate * the CoC applies to you møre Our progress is as much and only as much as the activity level we generate ourselves. The more activity the more new (and old) people participates. Let's get working! R On 6/9/08, Pierre Vorhagen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I would like to add some important details to my previously explained point. We now have the heart but we need our brain? Since when do community projects need to determine a specific brain? The brain is all the brains, that come to consensus on the mailing list. When I talk about the necessity of a core group, I have the feeling that we do not exactly talk of the same thing... If I get this right, you want to elect and name specific people? Open Source projects do not work that way, it sets itself naturally... This makes me think about a Google TechTalk I watched some time ago... In healthy projects, certain members will naturally fall into the role of watching that we keep on walking in the same direction, and that things move on... Furthermore, I am rather surprised when I read your lack of trust in this way of functioning... In open source communities, direction is set by all the people, following their degree of involvement, the time they already participate and the respect the community has for the person. It is not a chosen elite, even if it is usually the same people that end up writing the general will down on paper... With all due respect, I find the questioning of the fundamental way that thousands of FOSS projects function not necessary. Yes, there _needs_ to be a strong central group, but surely not an elected one... we discussed a lot on IRC, we are waiting for Onno to report it on the Wiki (no stress of course, didn't want to say that at all ;-) and let members that were not on IRC comment it, to see how we go along. Then we will move on. That is also why we are using email. IRC is good, all direct talk systems are good and sometimes necessary, but only the mailing list lets us set up a real communitary project in my opinion. And as far as I'm concerned, I don't think that the Church functions like FOSS projects at all... Greetings, Pierre Vorhagen, pep. John Botscharow a écrit : -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Onno Benschop wrote: So it would be wrong to suggest that I have little or no experience with Windows - far from it. Well, I was basing my comments on what you said. Obviously that interpretation was wrong and I apologize. Don't get me wrong, I'm not insulted in any way by your comment, just that when I make a point about something, it's with a long background in this industry with the experience of being a both a radio broadcaster and producer, an IT help-desk operator and team leader, a software developer, an IT trainer and a web-developer. I started playing with databases in the dBase II era and wrote sales management systems back in the days of the Summer Edition of Clipper (for those with a sense of nostalgia :) My own experience goes back to 1983 when I went to work for a large civic organization in Chicago as the administrative assistant for a program that coordinated corporate volunteers and material donations to small grass roots organizations. I have used computers ever since. The point that I was trying to make is that my experience and yours are very different and that gives us a very different perspective on things. And I think my experience is closer to that of the people we need to target than yours or many others in the Ubuntu community. A very small percentage of Windows users have the level of technical expertise that you do. And that is something that, IMHO, is something that the discussions on this list seem to not take into account in any substantive manner. (That was a tad longer than I intended, but being concise has never been a strong point - I'm working on it.) I got you beat by a mile on that LOL The other point I'd like to make is that I have to disagree with your perception of progress. I've seen many meetings that descend into rabble without any decisions being made, no common ground being reached and little or no progress having been made - our 2 and a half hour marathon session achieved lots more than I dared hope for. It did achieve a lot, no argument there, but, IMHO, it did not achieve enough. I am beginning to think that our basic difference is that I feel a sense of urgency about this team that you do not. I want us to go forth and market - as you so neatly put it - but we cannot until this team has both direction and structure. - heart
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 VidA wrote: On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 12:01 PM, John Botscharow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a theory, but you may not like it:-) A lack of a formal leadership structure. Specific offices that are filled as they become vacant. Frankly speaking, its not entirely true that we lack leaders in Ubuntu. In the past too we have had good projects (SU?) but as we all know a project does not go forward with just chiefs/heads...it needs folks willing to pick up the spade and dig. Maybe that is where things fizzed out. In my experience with the libre software community one leads by example instead of waiting for stuff to get done (read, paid employees in the outside world). I agree with the others, lets not hurry to elect a group of leaders until such time as the relationship, tasks, role, etc... with Canonical marketing team is mutually established. It would be nicer to have a synergy with them, if nothing else. And for those on this team who are not Christians, every major religion has similar history. erm... without meaning to digress, mine[1] does not. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanatana_Dharma Frankly speaking, its not entirely true that we lack leaders in Ubuntu. In the past too we have had good projects (SU?) but as we all know a project does not go forward with just chiefs/heads...it needs folks willing to pick up the spade and dig. Maybe that is where things fizzed out. In my experience with the libre software community one leads by example instead of waiting for stuff to get done (read, paid employees in the outside world).? We were not discussing the entire Ubuntu community, but rather the marketing team specifically, and, from what I've been able to glean from the discussion here as well as what research I've been able to do, the marketing team has done very little in recent months. I may not know much about technical issues, but I believe I understand marketing quite well, since I have been doing it since I was 12 and have been writing about it and researching it for nearly 20 years. Marketing is not a one person job for something like Ubuntu, and certainly not if you want to take on Microsoft, which is what Bug #1 is all about. Marketing Ubuntu requires a great deal of coordination of effort - everything from designing graphics to writing press releases to giving presentations. An effective marketing campaign requires the efforts of a number of people with different skills. But those efforts have to be coordinated so that everything required for a campaign is ready at the same time. I am sure that the developers team has leadership that coordinates the efforts of all the developers working on the latest release of Ubuntu as well as coordinating with other relevant teams like Documentation to make sure everything is ready when it is supposed to be ready. This team has none of that. And, since we are speaking frankly, the attitude that it will get done without leadership is quite naive. I agree with the others, lets not hurry to elect a group of leaders until such time as the relationship, tasks, role, etc... with Cano:nical marketing team is mutually established. It would be nicer to have a synergy with them, if nothing else. And who is going to do that? Who has the authority to speak for this team in any discussions with Canonical This is putting the cart before the horse. No one here can discuss things with Canonical until they have some sort of authority to speak for the team. We cannot each go off doing our own thing. If I believed that, I would not be spending my time writing messages on this list, I'd be talking to Canonical myself. I'd be talking to LoCos like the UK LoCo about what needs to be done to get Ubuntu onto Becta's list of recommended software for schools in the UK. I'd be writing articles for various educational trade joutnals in the US touting the benefits of Edubuntu. I'd be on the phone to several very large online home schooling communities here in the US that provide curricula to home schoolers about Edubuntu. And talking to the LoCos that are located near those communities about putting together a demo for those homeschool sites. But I do not have that authority, No one person on this team does. And no one person on this team can do that kind of marketing campaign alone. It takes a team. A team with leadership. A team wjere everyone has a role and understands that role. Any team, whether it is a team of volunteers or a team of athletes, cannot function effectively without leadership. To think that we can do effective marketing without leadership and structure is. to repeat myself, quite naive and will result in this team accomplishing nothing but lots of conversation. I apologize if this offends anyone, but like I said, this situation is very frustrating. The potential of what we could do as a team - an organized team - is staggering. And, personally, I am itching to get it going.
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
Hi John, and everyone in the list... Answering between the lines. On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 3:52 PM, John Botscharow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd be talking to LoCos like the UK LoCo about what needs to be done to get Ubuntu onto Becta's list of recommended software for schools in the UK. I'd be writing articles for various educational trade joutnals in the US touting the benefits of Edubuntu. I'd be on the phone to several very large online home schooling communities here in the US that provide curricula to home schoolers about Edubuntu. And talking to the LoCos that are located near those communities about putting together a demo for those homeschool sites. There is nothing stopping anyone from starting or doing whatever they believe is important. Around here things work that way: Get down to the wiki, e-mail other people doing the same. Organize the available resources in a per-mini-project basis. Get your work done! But I do not have that authority, No one person on this team does. And no one person on this team can do that kind of marketing campaign alone. It takes a team. A team with leadership. A team wjere everyone has a role and understands that role. Any team, whether it is a team of volunteers or a team of athletes, cannot function effectively without leadership. To think that we can do effective marketing without leadership and structure is. to repeat myself, quite naive and will result in this team accomplishing nothing but lots of conversation. True, to a certain extend. I believe people with a leading role in this community understand the need of action and dialogue combined. This, as I mentioned earlier, is best described in the: Leadership Code of Conduct: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/leadership-conduct I apologize if this offends anyone, but like I said, this situation is very frustrating. The potential of what we could do as a team - an organized team - is staggering. And, personally, I am itching to get it going. We can literally rock the world with this! :=) John, I truly believe you are a wonderful resource to this community and your insight, experience and depth in marketing generally combined with other peoples experiences as well is undoubtly part of what we need as a team, but not everything. Bare with us, please. We are all used to a methodology and workflow and try equally to adapt to everyone else's. But in the end we all scratch the itch that matters most to ourselves, the idea of this team is to see which of those itches are common and can be syncronized. That's all, we just need management... But management must be understood within the boundaries of the community and its members. I feel inspiration rather than frustration in this ubuntu-marketing evolution cycle. I believe we should stay focused and rather be positive in every single way we can, and point out constructively tyhings that are not progressing. But again... I have read this list for a long time and never saw the need to act, as I never saw real traction in the project (no offence anyone). I believe that this cycle in the projects history is going to change that. Let's make that become a reality and work out the technicalities one by one. - -- Peace! John Cheers! Rubén - Hubuntu https://launchpad.net/~huayra -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 09:56:02 -0500 John Vilsack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The different extremes being voiced seem to be, Ubuntu Community Marketing will fail without leadership as it has before and Leadership in FLOSS will kill individual initiative. Why can't we think in terms of grey versus black or white? I disagree here, John. The difference here is do it now ot let it happen on its own/ Yes, leadership naturally separates itself from the pack to assume roles of responsibility and with that comes the personal feeling of success or accomplishment. But how many open source projects fork at the first lack of consensus? If open source directives are truly free, then you are always going to have opinions that disagree regardless of how loud they might be. Leadership rose, like cream, to the top at the meeting - the people that showed up - but then do it later set in. Ubuntu allows for anyone to contribute and that holds true for us as well as it does for every other aspect of the project. Like the core-developers team, a proposed core-marketing team would help determine our priorities, oversee tools and repositories to ensure that new contributions are added regularly to our distribution and be there to report back to the group instead of expecting everyone to listen to a cacophony of minutiae concerning each task. I agree and it should have happened at the meeting - the core marketing team was there. See above comment. I still firmly believe that each change in direction, each major undertaking should seek consensus from the group. Each new person joining our team should always have the freedom to do as much (or as little) as they want in whatever areas that they want. All leaders should be responsible for making the things that we need the most help with more visible to those new users, so they can come in and make an immediate impact because they have direction and know what needs to be done. As I have said earlier, consensus is a nice idea. but sometimes, and the meeting was one, you have to take the bull by the horns. We didn't and I fear we will pay for that omission before all is said and done. PS: I think it would be remiss for us to begin listing off C.V.s and historic accomplishments as a means to justify our opinions. Some of the smartest people I have met in my life, and some of the ones who have made grand contributions throughout history have done so by taking their first steps. We should judge based on initiative and talent, not bullet points. If it is done for self-aggrandizement, I agree. But in the context of what Onno and I were discussing - the fact that our different backgrounds make for different perceptional frameworks, I think it was not only appropriate, but necessary. - -- Peace! John -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFITW8ysTN+hz1Fu7URAillAJ932vFQKWQGq6dPZqlGgnhG/lRdogCgp/tz bl6xkLJlfIBGtWSHnLPuCOo= =Ut0M -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
John Botscharow wrote: [...] That is EXACTLY how I see the leadership role of the team. What concerns me is the leadership within the team. We cannot lead Ubuntu marketing until we have some leadership of our own to keep us on track and moving forward. I believe we can. I do not need someone to tell me how to move forward or where to, although other may want that for themselves. It is useful if minds and motives and directions are alike. A leader is hardly going to change that. The meeting was arranged, and took place without an elected leader. People attended because they wanted to, not because someone told them to. Someone had to arrange it, that is not necessarily a job of a leader. It is the job of whoever is good at doing the organising and communicating about it. If this group has a number of active participants, then they form a de facto 'steering' or if you like 'leadership' group. This has its own leadership, and it is the sort that is self powering. Is an elected leader going to ask (you) to stop doing something you are keen to do? Are they going to urge you to do more of something you are already keen to do? Exactly how would an elected leader operate, and for what benefit? I have doubts about the real value of an elected leader in such a group as this. However I have no doubts at all about the value of leadership itself, and leadership activities. When these appear, and I like them, I will react positively, election or not. -- alan cocks Kubuntu user#10391 Linux user #360648 -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
John Botscharow wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 19:03:25 +0100 alan c [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alan, You, I guess, are what we in the colonies like to call a lone wolf. You are, and this is not a criticism but merely a statement of fact, not a team player, and that is fine. It is an incorrect statement. I can be a teamplayer - see how long I have been here. I can be a leader I can be a follower. I can also do whatever is necessary - without an elected leader. My point is that such a thing is not essential. [...] The meeting was arranged, and took place without an elected leader. People attended because they wanted to, not because someone told them to. Someone had to arrange it, that is not necessarily a job of a leader. It is the job of whoever is good at doing the organising and communicating about it. Yes, no one was elected, but without Onno's leadership at the meeting, we would not have gotten anything done. I do agree we do not necessarily need elected leaders. But if the leadership is self-selected, as cream rising to the top - which I feel it did at the meeting - that leadership has to publicly accept that responsibility, which is what should have happened at the meeting, but did not. Had that happened - had we all agreed to serve as the core marketing group - - until we get killed or the team finds someone better to paraphrase one of my favorite movie lines, we'd not be having this discussion. Do we need a leader to suggest this line of discussion is not very fruitful? Instead we'd be discussing concrete actionable projects that need to be done to help people like you and the LoCos do a better job of marketing Ubuntu0 Such projects can be named without further discussion, surely? Lobby educators, media, Congress, etc, etc -- alan cocks Kubuntu user#10391 Linux user #360648 -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
John Botscharow wrote: [...] To think that we can do effective marketing without leadership and structure is. to repeat myself, quite naive and will result in this team accomplishing nothing but lots of conversation. I have been doing effective marketing without an elected leader in this team, so you see I do not have the same view. I note there is a difference between acts of leadership and an elected leader. Do you have in mind that part of the future structure here would include an elected leader? Without an elected leader here I have been in touch with canonical on occasions and used resources lent by them at my request. If I can do such things, then so can you John or anyone else, it does not 'need' an elected leader, and I will not stop doing what I want to do until we have one, and I find it hard to imagine what advantage I would see from an elected leader. There may even be disadvantages. Suppose John that you were the elected leader? What advantage would there be? Why could you not state your views now without being elected, and If I am inspired by them I would follow. You do not need to be elected unless you want to use a level of coercion to be invoked. I apologize if this offends anyone, but like I said, this situation is very frustrating. It does not offend me, I understand your frustration. I urge you to consider that you have a great deal of power at your disposal as an active member of this list, whether or not you see an elected leader emerge. I put a question - how far would you follow a leader if there was a directive with which you disagreed? I would follow a little way, but not very far. I believe, I know, that aspects of leadership can emerge, without a situation of formal election. I am in favour of the marketing team getting organised, starting with objectives, then moving to achieve the objectives. I do not find the idea of an elected leader in this type of group a compelling one. -- alan cocks Kubuntu user#10391 Linux user #360648 -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Alan, Whether the leadership is done through natural selection or election is not really the point. The point is that there is no leadership AT ALL. None that is recognized as such by the team or the greater Ubuntu community. And as for your marketing efforts, they may have been effective for you at the very narrow level that you choose to market at. but would they be effective at a more global level Say with getting on Becta's list Also, effective is a matter of perspective. I do not know exactly who you marketed to or what you accomplished, so I reserve commenting on the effectiveness of what you did. But, unless you were able to convert a large number of Windows users to Ubuntu, from the global perspective of Bug #1, your efforts were very limited in their effectiveness. The purpose of marketing is to make the sale. and for Ubuntu marketing, our effectiveness needs to be measured in the number of converts we make. Making converts is our sale! We are not making enough sales And don't say that is not something that the marketing team should be involved in. because it is. We need to be involved in EVERY level of Ubuntu marketing. This is directly related to my comments about a shift to a more global perspective on this team. I'm curious about something. Why did you not register any of your marketing efforts as a team project? No one who is part of this team should have to go it alone. But we cannot work as a team if no one communicates what they are doing with the rest of the team or the rest of the Ubuntu community. That is, IMHO, what being part of a team is all about. - -- Peace! John -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFITZ1UsTN+hz1Fu7URAmAGAJwInM1jN/BLCg8C7Fe46SfcdfXW4QCgufWi rr9kqqzmxHCvXw/uKSNjZho= =Se2h -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
On 10/06/08 01:58, John Botscharow wrote: Leadership rose, like cream, to the top at the meeting - the people that showed up - but then do it later set in. I think you do yourself and the team a great disservice with the second part of this comment. I think that the flurry of emails generated on this topic of leadership is evidence that this is not a simple issue and that great philosophical gaps exist in methodology. I think that you misunderstand and under appreciate the respect the team has for your contributions, though personally, I think religion is not helping your argument and it puts me off. I think that you have a fundamental obstacle to overcome, one where you understand that If you do unto others as you would like done to you. and you build contributions built on that, you will be listened to, evaluated, commented upon and respected. Your initial FCM submission was a great example of this. I strongly urge you to take into account the feedback you received and publish a new draft. I personally will commit to reading it and commenting upon it, but you should realise that there is no requirement for me, or any other team member to do so. It was with the foreknowledge that the discussion we are having today, or rather, since the meeting, that I wrote during the meeting these words: [TOPIC] Team Structure Onto the Team Structure. This item is quite large and I've left it until now because we needed to understand a little about who we are and what we do. In order to determine the structure, we have several proposals that include a number of roles and titles. While for some that provides a handy reference, others feel that such things impose too much of a Chiefs and Indians division. Comments? I confess that I underestimated the level of passion the various proponents brought to the discussion. -- Onno Benschop Connected via Optus B3 at S31°54'06 - E115°50'39 (Yokine, WA) -- ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno.. |?..EBCDIC for Onno.. --- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno.. ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
On 09/06/08 20:50, Pierre Vorhagen wrote: [..] we discussed a lot on IRC, we are waiting for Onno to report it on the Wiki (no stress of course, didn't want to say that at all ;-) and let members that were not on IRC comment it, to see how we go along. Then we will move on. Bruno and I are working on it. It's a big job that comprises two and a half hours of transcript that needs to be summarised in a fair and balanced way. The logs are available now if you wish to read the raw transcript: * http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/06/07/%23ubuntu-meeting.html * http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/06/08/%23ubuntu-meeting.html Or if you prefer raw text: * http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/06/07/%23ubuntu-meeting.txt * http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/06/08/%23ubuntu-meeting.txt -- Onno Benschop Connected via Optus B3 at S31°54'06 - E115°50'39 (Yokine, WA) -- ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno.. |?..EBCDIC for Onno.. --- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno.. ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:03:33 +0800 Onno Benschop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 09/06/08 18:23, John Botscharow wrote: RE: IRC Chat issues John Have you considered or tried speech generation? I have used voice chat on other chat programs, but not in Linux. Not sure how to set it up and it would only work if everyone in the room used it :o) That's probably asking a bit much. As for large group dynamics, I disagree. #ubuntu is a huge room with 1200 people where people are being helped all the time. Not all questions are answered, but if you help before you ask and ask appropriate questions, you have a great chance of being assisted. There are meeting methods where all speakers in IRC are muted and only the chair can allow people to talk, but it completely stifles the flow of discussion. The great thing about IRC is that each voice is as loud as every other voice, that means that you can all sit around a large round table and hear all the things being said, rather than only hear the few people near to you or loud enough. 1200 people all typing at the same time!? That's scares the daylights out of me. LOL I think I'll stick to lists for technical help LOL - -- Peace! John 12 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFITddSsTN+hz1Fu7URAmKrAKDkXVpXD5IfEPGUB2UxK36k+gzPVgCggbRC 3aysPLbmyyM/MN8DN2ufYtM= =2lEZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction,
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:24:13 +0800 Onno Benschop [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that the flurry of emails generated on this topic of leadership is evidence that this is not a simple issue and that great philosophical gaps exist in methodology. OR had we taken the bull by the horns, the activity would never have happened. I think that you misunderstand and under appreciate the respect the team has for your contributions, though personally, I think religion is not helping your argument and it puts me off. Not at all and I do appreciate that, but to me, it is a contribution I wish I did not need to make. :-) I would rather make my contributions in other areas, which will have to wait until after we get this issue resolved. I think that you have a fundamental obstacle to overcome, one where you understand that If you do unto others as you would like done to you. and you build contributions built on that, you will be listened to, evaluated, commented upon and respected. Your initial FCM submission was a great example of this. I strongly urge you to take into account the feedback you received and publish a new draft. I personally will commit to reading it and commenting upon it, but you should realise that there is no requirement for me, or any other team member to do so. I am aware of all that, and in the same vein, there is no requirement for me to even post it here. I did that because of my respect for the people in this group. What I wrote was my opinion, and that has not changed substantially. I will take your suggestion into consideration, but I am not promising anything. I am a firm believer in the right of free speech, yours, mine and everyone else's and in our right to agree to disagree. So let's agree to disagree and leave it there for now. As for making contributions to this team that are commensurate with my abilities, well, I am a writer, and have written a lot - several hundred - articles on marketing theory and how-tos which I am adding to my personal wiki. I had hoped to put them in the team wiki as resources, but given the feedback I got - most of it negative - I decided to put it on my personal wiki. Anyone who wants to come read them is most welcome and I will gladly answer any questions or comments about them. Feel free to contact me personally - just use a pgp signature or I might think your message is spam, if I do not recognize your name. I am going back to not talking on here on this subject any more. I've said my piece and feel no further need to repeat myself. I confess that I underestimated the level of passion the various proponents brought to the discussion. Passion is an important element of marketing, as the early Mac evangelists proved. It was their passion that drove the Mac marketing campaign. And if we are to even begin to complete with Windows and their hired guns, we will need a whole lot more passion than you've seen on this list. A whole lot more. - -- Peace! John -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFITdzOsTN+hz1Fu7URAmhlAKCjXTPt9ol+/VSRpOHhZt4YXf0qCwCdHlTr 0kvMI/M512iV3Mujw/3SuqA= =AVM7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction, please]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 John Botscharow wrote: Sorry, I sent this from the wrong address. Original Message Subject: FCN submission - your reaction, please Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:49:18 -0500 From: John Botscharow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: ubuntu-marketing ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com What follows is an article - rough draft which I just wrote as a possible submission to FCM as a My Opinion piece. Since it was inspired by the marketing team meeting earlier this evening my time), I'd appreciate your opinion and comments before I submit it. Excuse any typos as I have not yet proofed it. My eyes are too tired. Time for my drops and an hour or two in a dark room. I'll cgeck back later to see if anyone comments and to see what else is going on here. What is FCM? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIS6L9eedO8dcp9nYRApuqAJ49uUtMHA5/BtqV2kMHw2kkIDdo/gCfb1Vy 6e038qcWfBPG0NwodZozbus= =VURk -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction, please]
John, This message is being sent to the list because I believe in open communication - even though some of the content is specifically for you. Your article is a very interesting take on your participation with Ubuntu and the Ubuntu-Marketing team and for it's thorough and thought out content I thank you. You raise some interesting points about perceptions and reality. I am mindful of your visual impairment, but I recall a fellow list member, in another list I moderate, who has to hunt for each character, one-at-a-time, to produce his contributions. I had been reading his emails for years before he told me of his circumstance - only as way of apology for sending an email to the wrong address. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I understand what you're writing, but not how it would stop you from contributing. If you have specific issues that need software support that you are not able to overcome, then please let me know and I'll attempt to assist you where I can. Your comments about group dynamics and email are interesting because my view is not even close to yours. I've been using email as my primary communications medium since I came on-line in 1990. That's 18 years of email. I never stopped using it, nor did the people who build and maintain Ubuntu. I'm sorry that the Windows experience has caused you to steer away from email, but then, the rest of the world just continued to use it. I realise that this may sound factious, since there are more Windows users than Linux users today, but for me the reality is that Windows didn't provide me with the user experience I expected, so I changed, and kept using email. Another way to look at this highlights just how far we are apart in our experiences. Over the weekend I was having dinner with a doctor and her husband. Her computing experience is one of disaster and confusion. She hates the things, is required by her medical centre to use them and describes how she cannot access information within her system and she speaks fondly of paper files and reports. She is about a decade away from retirement and she resents that she cannot provide the health care that she wants to give to her patients. I spent an hour explaining that her problem was solvable with open standards and government regulation that mandated those standards. I told her of how I manage many Gigabytes of data each month - that is find, organise and store widely diverse information - as part of my day-to-day work life. I understand that she has a training issue, and that there is an aspect that relates to her profession, but fundamentally her computing experience is poor. Should this team market to her? Probably. Does this team have the resources to market to her? Sure. To her colleagues in Perth, Western Australia? Probably. To the world? Probably not. To all the professions across the world? Absolutely not. So, yes, Ubuntu needs to be marketed to the world, but there is absolutely no way that we can do it ourselves, here, within this team. Do I share your frustration that we cannot just get up and market this thing to everyone? Not any more. The reason I'm not frustrated about it, is because I look at this from a system perspective. We are building a system that makes it possible, using volunteers and community members to harness their energy to do the marketing that they want to. Personally I market Ubuntu most days. Not actively go out and do letterbox drops, or advertising, or seminars, but just in talking to people about Ubuntu, about OpenSource, standards and other things that cause people to have a frustrating Windows experience. So, yes, to actively participate in this community you need some skills. We welcome you with open arms, we try to introduce new skills to you as we go and we try to support you as time goes by. Is it hard - sure. Is it frustrating - sure. Is it rewarding? Answer me this. If you were a Windows user, where is your community that helps you, fixes software for you, gives you free advice and a place to share your concerns and ideas, central resources to manage your machine and community representation across many countries of the world, where you can talk to people in Mexico, Denmark and Australia, just by hitting the send button on your email client? So, please do not feel disheartened, rather feel encouraged that we take note of your contributions and consider them together with the contributions from other team members. -- Onno Benschop Connected via Optus B3 at S31°54'06 - E115°50'39 (Yokine, WA) -- ()/)/)()..ASCII for Onno.. |?..EBCDIC for Onno.. --- -. -. --- ..Morse for Onno.. ITmaze - ABN: 56 178 057 063 - ph: 04 1219 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ubuntu-marketing mailing list ubuntu-marketing@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-marketing
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction, please]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Onno Benschop wrote: John, This message is being sent to the list because I believe in open communication - even though some of the content is specifically for you. Your article is a very interesting take on your participation with Ubuntu and the Ubuntu-Marketing team and for it's thorough and thought out content I thank you. You raise some interesting points about perceptions and reality. I am mindful of your visual impairment, but I recall a fellow list member, in another list I moderate, who has to hunt for each character, one-at-a-time, to produce his contributions. I had been reading his emails for years before he told me of his circumstance - only as way of apology for sending an email to the wrong address. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I understand what you're writing, but not how it would stop you from contributing. If you have specific issues that need software support that you are not able to overcome, then please let me know and I'll attempt to assist you where I can. Your comments about group dynamics and email are interesting because my view is not even close to yours. I've been using email as my primary communications medium since I came on-line in 1990. That's 18 years of email. I never stopped using it, nor did the people who build and maintain Ubuntu. I'm sorry that the Windows experience has caused you to steer away from email, but then, the rest of the world just continued to use it. I realise that this may sound factious, since there are more Windows users than Linux users today, but for me the reality is that Windows didn't provide me with the user experience I expected, so I changed, and kept using email. Another way to look at this highlights just how far we are apart in our experiences. Over the weekend I was having dinner with a doctor and her husband. Her computing experience is one of disaster and confusion. She hates the things, is required by her medical centre to use them and describes how she cannot access information within her system and she speaks fondly of paper files and reports. She is about a decade away from retirement and she resents that she cannot provide the health care that she wants to give to her patients. I spent an hour explaining that her problem was solvable with open standards and government regulation that mandated those standards. I told her of how I manage many Gigabytes of data each month - that is find, organise and store widely diverse information - as part of my day-to-day work life. I understand that she has a training issue, and that there is an aspect that relates to her profession, but fundamentally her computing experience is poor. Should this team market to her? Probably. Does this team have the resources to market to her? Sure. To her colleagues in Perth, Western Australia? Probably. To the world? Probably not. To all the professions across the world? Absolutely not. So, yes, Ubuntu needs to be marketed to the world, but there is absolutely no way that we can do it ourselves, here, within this team. Do I share your frustration that we cannot just get up and market this thing to everyone? Not any more. The reason I'm not frustrated about it, is because I look at this from a system perspective. We are building a system that makes it possible, using volunteers and community members to harness their energy to do the marketing that they want to. Personally I market Ubuntu most days. Not actively go out and do letterbox drops, or advertising, or seminars, but just in talking to people about Ubuntu, about OpenSource, standards and other things that cause people to have a frustrating Windows experience. So, yes, to actively participate in this community you need some skills. We welcome you with open arms, we try to introduce new skills to you as we go and we try to support you as time goes by. Is it hard - sure. Is it frustrating - sure. Is it rewarding? Answer me this. If you were a Windows user, where is your community that helps you, fixes software for you, gives you free advice and a place to share your concerns and ideas, central resources to manage your machine and community representation across many countries of the world, where you can talk to people in Mexico, Denmark and Australia, just by hitting the send button on your email client? So, please do not feel disheartened, rather feel encouraged that we take note of your contributions and consider them together with the contributions from other team members. Onno Benschop wrote: My responses are interspersed below with relevant quotes from Onno's message This message is being sent to the list because I believe in open communication - even though some of the content is specifically for you. That is the reason I posted the article to the list, and I was really hoping you would reply. Your article is a very
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction, please]]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 It seems I sent the email I just apologized for from the wrong address, Not my day, I guess. Here us my reply to Onno as I originally intended it to look.bers. Onno Benschop wrote: My responses are interspersed below with relevant quotes from Onno's message This message is being sent to the list because I believe in open communication - even though some of the content is specifically for you. That is the reason I posted the article to the list, and I was really hoping you would reply. Your article is a very interesting take on your participation with Ubuntu and the Ubuntu-Marketing team and for it's thorough and thought out content I thank you. To complete the social amenities, you are most welcome and I appreciate the effort you put into your reply You raise some interesting points about perceptions and reality. Yes, I believe that the main issue with this team is one of perception, or to be more exact, the group's self-perception. IMHO. it needs to change its perception about what marketing is, which will then change how it perceives itself, which, in turn, will change its reality. For the sake of brevity, I will not get into the changes in perception that need to be made in detail here. Rather I will write a separate message and post it here in a day or two. I am still working out my ideas in my head before committing them to paper. I am mindful of your visual.. If you have specific issues that need software support that you are not able to overcome, then please let me know and I'll attempt to assist you where I can. My main problem, visually, is not email but the IRC chat. I really had a very hard time keeping up with the conversation because the screen changed faster than I could read it. That is the advantage of email and forums; they allow you to control the pace of the conversation :-) If you can offer some technical solutions that might help me with the IRC sessions, I would be most grateful. Your comments about group dynamics and email are interesting because my view is not even close to yours. You are not alone in that, I suspect! I've been using email as my primary communications medium since I came on-line in 1990. ... Another way to look at this highlights just how far we are apart in our experiences. My point exactly. People like yourself who have little or no experience with Windows have very different perceptions of how virtually reality works. You've probably never had to spend hundreds of dollars having your hard drive cleaned of trojans and viruses or had to completely replace the hard drive or even your computer because of them. I've been there and done that as have many of the people I know who use their computers to make a living marketing online. It is the attempts to escape these email issues that led to the popularity of RSS. I know, because I was an early and vociferous advocate of direct-to-desktop marketing. So, yes, Ubuntu needs to be marketed to the world, but there is absolutely no way that we can do it ourselves, here, within this team. I agree that it is not the responsibility of the marketing team to do the actual marketing to the world. That should be the job of the LoCos. They should have the tools and the authority to market Ubuntu to anyone and everyone in their region. We market Uvubtu to the world, but divide the world up among the LoCos. The responsibility of the marketing team, as I see it, is to develop the marketing tools for the LoCos to use. Everything from release party guides to how to talk to a Windows user to how to market in general. And, again, this requires a change in perception. We need to look beyond the limited marketing venues being used now and design tools and training materials to teach the LoCos to broaden their efforts. to go after organizations like Becta or a regional school district. or your doctor and her colleagues. We need to discuss our ideas. once they are a bit more developed with Canonicals marketing team to see how we can coordinate our efforts. And we need to encourage LoCos to seriously consider some form of incorporation so they can seriously market to entities like Becta. But that means that the core leadership of the marketing team, at least. needs to move out from what seems to be a somewhat provincial perspective to a more global perspective. If this is not clear to all, please let me know and I will develop it further. Do I share your frustration that we cannot just get up and market this thing to everyone? Not any more. Interjecting a little humor here, with a kernel of wisdom: frustration will kill anyone's dreams. Been there, Done that. The reason I'm not frustrated about it, is because I look at this from a system perspective. We are building a system that makes it possible, using volunteers and community members to harness their energy to do the marketing that they want to. Personally I market Ubuntu most days. Not
Re: [ubuntu-marketing] [Fwd: FCN submission - your reaction, please]]
I have to disagree. Even though the meeting did not decide a leader, or any kind of leadership role, the marketing team can still survive and progress. The use of SU was decided, and to post the future content of SU in the wiki was also decided. Improvements for the wiki were also decided. The marketing team itself was defined to some extent, which imho is a great improvement. Also, the meeting was getting way too long, and the team structure is something that has to be extensively discussed. I would, rather then get frustrated, be satisfied, that the meeting actually served a purpose and was not just 3 hours of talking for nothing. On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 10:15 PM, John Botscharow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 It seems I sent the email I just apologized for from the wrong address, Not my day, I guess. Here us my reply to Onno as I originally intended it to look.bers. Onno Benschop wrote: My responses are interspersed below with relevant quotes from Onno's message This message is being sent to the list because I believe in open communication - even though some of the content is specifically for you. That is the reason I posted the article to the list, and I was really hoping you would reply. Your article is a very interesting take on your participation with Ubuntu and the Ubuntu-Marketing team and for it's thorough and thought out content I thank you. To complete the social amenities, you are most welcome and I appreciate the effort you put into your reply You raise some interesting points about perceptions and reality. Yes, I believe that the main issue with this team is one of perception, or to be more exact, the group's self-perception. IMHO. it needs to change its perception about what marketing is, which will then change how it perceives itself, which, in turn, will change its reality. For the sake of brevity, I will not get into the changes in perception that need to be made in detail here. Rather I will write a separate message and post it here in a day or two. I am still working out my ideas in my head before committing them to paper. I am mindful of your visual.. If you have specific issues that need software support that you are not able to overcome, then please let me know and I'll attempt to assist you where I can. My main problem, visually, is not email but the IRC chat. I really had a very hard time keeping up with the conversation because the screen changed faster than I could read it. That is the advantage of email and forums; they allow you to control the pace of the conversation :-) If you can offer some technical solutions that might help me with the IRC sessions, I would be most grateful. Your comments about group dynamics and email are interesting because my view is not even close to yours. You are not alone in that, I suspect! I've been using email as my primary communications medium since I came on-line in 1990. ... Another way to look at this highlights just how far we are apart in our experiences. My point exactly. People like yourself who have little or no experience with Windows have very different perceptions of how virtually reality works. You've probably never had to spend hundreds of dollars having your hard drive cleaned of trojans and viruses or had to completely replace the hard drive or even your computer because of them. I've been there and done that as have many of the people I know who use their computers to make a living marketing online. It is the attempts to escape these email issues that led to the popularity of RSS. I know, because I was an early and vociferous advocate of direct-to-desktop marketing. So, yes, Ubuntu needs to be marketed to the world, but there is absolutely no way that we can do it ourselves, here, within this team. I agree that it is not the responsibility of the marketing team to do the actual marketing to the world. That should be the job of the LoCos. They should have the tools and the authority to market Ubuntu to anyone and everyone in their region. We market Uvubtu to the world, but divide the world up among the LoCos. The responsibility of the marketing team, as I see it, is to develop the marketing tools for the LoCos to use. Everything from release party guides to how to talk to a Windows user to how to market in general. And, again, this requires a change in perception. We need to look beyond the limited marketing venues being used now and design tools and training materials to teach the LoCos to broaden their efforts. to go after organizations like Becta or a regional school district. or your doctor and her colleagues. We need to discuss our ideas. once they are a bit more developed with Canonicals marketing team to see how we can coordinate our efforts. And we need to encourage LoCos to seriously consider some form of incorporation so they can seriously market to entities like Becta. But that
