Re: [ubuntu-uk] efi boot, Windows 8 and Linux
On 22 September 2011 00:06, Alan Bell alan.b...@libertus.co.uk wrote: On 21/09/11 23:29, Bea Groves wrote: Just read the following. Comments? yeah, it is potentially very nasty. To be Windows 8 certified computers will have to be able to do this secure boot thing. Most will include an option to turn it off, exactly like the google chromebooks do, they have a switch to turn off the code signing requirement so you can run unsigned operating systems. The OLPC also has this exact same feature, but you can get a dev key and turn it off. The problem is that some manufacturers might start not bothering to include an off switch. So that would creep in as a set of machines (probably quite mainstream high volume ones) that won't run anything but the pre-installed Windows 8 or above. The big problem is that Windows 9 might *require* secure boot to run. This means it won't run on older machines (driving hardware sales, the industry likes that) and means that more manufacturers will fail to include an off switch for the secure boot. If the market doesn't punish them by people avoiding these pre-bricked computers then they will keep doing it. Microsoft will carefully not require OEMs to fail to include an off switch, because that would be anti-competitive. Virtualbox and VMware and so on can include the public keys and provide a secure boot environment, or run unsigned code for developing drivers and running Linux, but you won't be running Linux on the hardware, only virtualised. It is kind of like the current trend for using up 4 primary partitions and not creating extended partitions to make dual booting harder, but this one you potentially can't get round. I can see a time when you have to get a laptop chipped to run Linux like you would a DVD player to do multi region. There are current factors that may give hope: for the one the major component makers such as Samsung and LG are proving to be less OS bound than previously, certainly in the mobile phone sector: all the Korean companies produce both Android and Windows phones as well as making their own OSes such as Samsung's Bada, so may be less willing to bind themselves to Windows for their PCs, perhaps more so if the X86 Android port is successful, becomes official and remains free. On the other hand, the success of the iPad and other tablets has blurred the distinction between PC and phone and the tablet-type device may supersede the PC more in the coming years, something which Microsoft have seen and responded to by finally porting Windows to ARM, something which Unity is intended also to address. The traditional PC may end up playing a smaller role in the hardware ecosystem than it has previously. As Alan says, in the short term though, Linux will have to adapt to EFI (Macs have had this since the switch to x86 and you can run Linux on them with few problems) but if the time comes that signing becomes necessary, the growth of Linux may be such that it can't be ignored as an alternative desktop and that there will a key pair or pairs available. s/ -- Twitter: @sfgreenwood Is this your sanderling? -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] efi boot, Windows 8 and Linux
On 22/09/11 09:42, Simon Greenwood wrote: On 22 September 2011 00:06, Alan Bell alan.b...@libertus.co.uk mailto:alan.b...@libertus.co.uk wrote: On 21/09/11 23:29, Bea Groves wrote: Just read the following. Comments? yeah, it is potentially very nasty. To be Windows 8 certified computers will have to be able to do this secure boot thing. Most will include an option to turn it off, exactly like the google chromebooks do, they have a switch to turn off the code signing requirement so you can run unsigned operating systems. The OLPC also has this exact same feature, but you can get a dev key and turn it off. The problem is that some manufacturers might start not bothering to include an off switch. So that would creep in as a set of machines (probably quite mainstream high volume ones) that won't run anything but the pre-installed Windows 8 or above. The big problem is that Windows 9 might *require* secure boot to run. This means it won't run on older machines (driving hardware sales, the industry likes that) and means that more manufacturers will fail to include an off switch for the secure boot. If the market doesn't punish them by people avoiding these pre-bricked computers then they will keep doing it. Microsoft will carefully not require OEMs to fail to include an off switch, because that would be anti-competitive. Virtualbox and VMware and so on can include the public keys and provide a secure boot environment, or run unsigned code for developing drivers and running Linux, but you won't be running Linux on the hardware, only virtualised. It is kind of like the current trend for using up 4 primary partitions and not creating extended partitions to make dual booting harder, but this one you potentially can't get round. I can see a time when you have to get a laptop chipped to run Linux like you would a DVD player to do multi region. There are current factors that may give hope: for the one the major component makers such as Samsung and LG are proving to be less OS bound than previously, certainly in the mobile phone sector: all the Korean companies produce both Android and Windows phones as well as making their own OSes such as Samsung's Bada, so may be less willing to bind themselves to Windows for their PCs, perhaps more so if the X86 Android port is successful, becomes official and remains free. On the other hand, the success of the iPad and other tablets has blurred the distinction between PC and phone and the tablet-type device may supersede the PC more in the coming years, something which Microsoft have seen and responded to by finally porting Windows to ARM, something which Unity is intended also to address. The traditional PC may end up playing a smaller role in the hardware ecosystem than it has previously. As Alan says, in the short term though, Linux will have to adapt to EFI (Macs have had this since the switch to x86 and you can run Linux on them with few problems) but if the time comes that signing becomes necessary, the growth of Linux may be such that it can't be ignored as an alternative desktop and that there will a key pair or pairs available. s/ -- Twitter: @sfgreenwood Is this your sanderling? We would have to do a lot of awareness raising and support things like install days to get round things like this. as the borg say we will adapt paul -- Paul Sutton Cert SLPS (Open) http://www.zleap.net 17th September 2011 - Software freedom day -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] efi boot, Windows 8 and Linux
On 22/09/11 09:47, Paul Sutton wrote: We would have to do a lot of awareness raising and support things like install days to get round things like this. as the borg say we will adapt The FLOSS world's lack of competence, or even appetite, for publicity or marketing is the elephant in the room. 1) FLOSS, GNU/Linux etc, 'marketing' is pretty well non existent compared to non free products. 'I advertise, therefore I exist' (apologies to Descartes). 2) Of all things, marketing is -very- unsuited to the free libre, distributed model. -- alan cocks Ubuntu user -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] efi boot, Windows 8 and Linux
On 22 September 2011 10:50, alan c aecl...@candt.waitrose.com wrote: On 22/09/11 09:47, Paul Sutton wrote: We would have to do a lot of awareness raising and support things like install days to get round things like this. as the borg say we will adapt The FLOSS world's lack of competence, or even appetite, for publicity or marketing is the elephant in the room. 1) FLOSS, GNU/Linux etc, 'marketing' is pretty well non existent compared to non free products. 'I advertise, therefore I exist' (apologies to Descartes). 2) Of all things, marketing is -very- unsuited to the free libre, distributed model. Marketing, maybe, promotion not. I would argue that that is pretty much why Ubuntu exists, to create a user-friendly Linux and to encourage its use. s/ -- Twitter: @sfgreenwood Is this your sanderling? -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] efi boot, Windows 8 and Linux
On 22/09/11 11:14, Simon Greenwood wrote: On 22 September 2011 10:50, alan c aecl...@candt.waitrose.com wrote: On 22/09/11 09:47, Paul Sutton wrote: We would have to do a lot of awareness raising and support things like install days to get round things like this. as the borg say we will adapt The FLOSS world's lack of competence, or even appetite, for publicity or marketing is the elephant in the room. 1) FLOSS, GNU/Linux etc, 'marketing' is pretty well non existent compared to non free products. 'I advertise, therefore I exist' (apologies to Descartes). 2) Of all things, marketing is -very- unsuited to the free libre, distributed model. Marketing, maybe, promotion not. I would argue that that is pretty much why Ubuntu exists, to create a user-friendly Linux and to encourage its use. Community was the single most important reason why I personally started to use Ubuntu. This is almost a word of mouth thing. Person direct to person. I am not saying we cannot do anything at all, just that evidence suggests that we are not going to win with ONLY existing strategies. Promotion: how is marketing different from promotion? Do microsoft have a marketing department and a promotion department? Our lack of experience in these matters is painful. -- alan cocks Ubuntu user -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] [marketing] A lesson in marketing - Congo condoms - Ted5 minute video
A nice analogy, if not a bit dirty-minded, but we won't judge ;). The problem with Linux is that we always take it, take the patent infringements, take the lies, the barrage that Microsoft put upon us. Microsoft said that Linux infringes on its patents and tells that around, when in fact - it didn't. It used that as a marketing tool to stop it from getting share. I'm pretty sure they attempted to sue, but it was declared non-copyrightable code. Linus Torvalds should sue the living hell off of Microsoft for all they've done. That is, if my information is all correct, and that they would lose in court, as I am not a lawyer/solicitor etc, so I do not know. Please feel free to correct me and tell me any legal standings between them :). Nick. -- -Original Message- From: alan c aecl...@candt.waitrose.com Sender: ubuntu-uk-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 12:01:41 To: British Ubuntu Talkubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com Reply-To: UK Ubuntu Talk ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: [ubuntu-uk] [marketing] A lesson in marketing - Congo condoms - Ted 5 minute video When something (sex) is a must have, then even the valuable life saving benefits of condoms need a real world marketing strategy. I found it fascinating to translate some of this situation towards FLOSS marketing. One nice difference of course, is that condoms actually are available there, in the shops, unlike Ubuntu PCs! Amy Lockwood: Selling condoms in the Congo http://bit.ly/qxTHCP -- alan cocks Ubuntu user -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] [marketing] A lesson in marketing - Congo condoms - Ted5 minute video
A nice analogy, if not a bit dirty-minded, but we won't judge ;). The problem with Linux is that we always take it, take the patent infringements, take the lies, the barrage that Microsoft put upon us. Microsoft said that Linux infringes on its patents and tells that around, when in fact - it didn't. It used that as a marketing tool to stop it from getting share. I'm pretty sure they attempted to sue, but it was declared non-copyrightable code. Linus Torvalds should sue the living hell off of Microsoft for all they've done. That is, if my information is all correct, and that they would lose in court, as I am not a lawyer/solicitor etc, so I do not know. Please feel free to correct me and tell me any legal standings between them :). Nick. -- -Original Message- From: alan c aecl...@candt.waitrose.com Sender: ubuntu-uk-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2011 12:01:41 To: British Ubuntu Talkubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com Reply-To: UK Ubuntu Talk ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: [ubuntu-uk] [marketing] A lesson in marketing - Congo condoms - Ted 5 minute video When something (sex) is a must have, then even the valuable life saving benefits of condoms need a real world marketing strategy. I found it fascinating to translate some of this situation towards FLOSS marketing. One nice difference of course, is that condoms actually are available there, in the shops, unlike Ubuntu PCs! Amy Lockwood: Selling condoms in the Congo http://bit.ly/qxTHCP -- alan cocks Ubuntu user -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] efi boot, Windows 8 and Linux
On 22 September 2011 11:53, alan c aecl...@candt.waitrose.com wrote: On 22/09/11 11:14, Simon Greenwood wrote: On 22 September 2011 10:50, alan c aecl...@candt.waitrose.com wrote: On 22/09/11 09:47, Paul Sutton wrote: We would have to do a lot of awareness raising and support things like install days to get round things like this. as the borg say we will adapt The FLOSS world's lack of competence, or even appetite, for publicity or marketing is the elephant in the room. 1) FLOSS, GNU/Linux etc, 'marketing' is pretty well non existent compared to non free products. 'I advertise, therefore I exist' (apologies to Descartes). 2) Of all things, marketing is -very- unsuited to the free libre, distributed model. Marketing, maybe, promotion not. I would argue that that is pretty much why Ubuntu exists, to create a user-friendly Linux and to encourage its use. Community was the single most important reason why I personally started to use Ubuntu. This is almost a word of mouth thing. Person direct to person. I am not saying we cannot do anything at all, just that evidence suggests that we are not going to win with ONLY existing strategies. Promotion: how is marketing different from promotion? Do microsoft have a marketing department and a promotion department? Our lack of experience in these matters is painful. -- That's a good philosophical question. Microsoft has marketing and Linux has advocacy. I wouldn't say there's a lack of experience, just not a single monolithic business that pushed Linux on the desktop, which where Windows is concerned, has been Microsoft's policy for a good 20 years. There's no shortage of companies marketing the benefits of Linux on the server side: HP, Oracle and IBM to name the biggest, but the argument is always the cost benefit of migration. The biggest barrier to get over on the desktop is that Windows is just there, that people think of IE as 'The Internet' and that Word is the only way to do word processing. People still want it to Just Work, which is where Apple gets it right with a Unix based operating system, albeit with a increasingly proprietary desktop on a very limited subset of hardware. When there's a Linux-based desktop that does that, a decent part of the battle will be won. s/ -- Twitter: @sfgreenwood Is this your sanderling? -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] efi boot, Windows 8 and Linux
On 22/09/11 12:50, Simon Greenwood wrote: On 22 September 2011 11:53, alan c aecl...@candt.waitrose.com wrote: On 22/09/11 11:14, Simon Greenwood wrote: On 22 September 2011 10:50, alan c aecl...@candt.waitrose.com wrote: On 22/09/11 09:47, Paul Sutton wrote: We would have to do a lot of awareness raising and support things like install days to get round things like this. as the borg say we will adapt The FLOSS world's lack of competence, or even appetite, for publicity or marketing is the elephant in the room. 1) FLOSS, GNU/Linux etc, 'marketing' is pretty well non existent compared to non free products. 'I advertise, therefore I exist' (apologies to Descartes). 2) Of all things, marketing is -very- unsuited to the free libre, distributed model. Marketing, maybe, promotion not. I would argue that that is pretty much why Ubuntu exists, to create a user-friendly Linux and to encourage its use. Community was the single most important reason why I personally started to use Ubuntu. This is almost a word of mouth thing. Person direct to person. I am not saying we cannot do anything at all, just that evidence suggests that we are not going to win with ONLY existing strategies. Promotion: how is marketing different from promotion? Do microsoft have a marketing department and a promotion department? Our lack of experience in these matters is painful. -- That's a good philosophical question. Microsoft has marketing and Linux has advocacy. I wouldn't say there's a lack of experience, just not a single monolithic business that pushed Linux on the desktop, which where Windows is concerned, has been Microsoft's policy for a good 20 years. There's no shortage of companies marketing the benefits of Linux on the server side: HP, Oracle and IBM to name the biggest, but the argument is always the cost benefit of migration. The biggest barrier to get over on the desktop is that Windows is just there, that people think of IE as 'The Internet' and that Word is the only way to do word processing. People still want it to Just Work, which is where Apple gets it right with a Unix based operating system, albeit with a increasingly proprietary desktop on a very limited subset of hardware. When there's a Linux-based desktop that does that, a decent part of the battle will be won. So, on the grounds that if we 'continue to do what we have always done', we 'get what we always got', what then? -- alan cocks Ubuntu user -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] efi boot, Windows 8 and Linux
On 22/09/2011 00:06, Alan Bell wrote: On 21/09/11 23:29, Bea Groves wrote: Just read the following. Comments? yeah, it is potentially very nasty. Even more so when the next step could be to require signed keys to run applications - then MS could control the hardware and the OS AND what people actually run on it. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] efi boot, Windows 8 and Linux
On Thu, 2011-09-22 at 13:06 +0100, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On 22/09/2011 00:06, Alan Bell wrote: On 21/09/11 23:29, Bea Groves wrote: Just read the following. Comments? yeah, it is potentially very nasty. Even more so when the next step could be to require signed keys to run applications - then MS could control the hardware and the OS AND what people actually run on it. Don't you think laws regulating anti-competitive conduct will prevent that to happen? Actually any judge can argue that dual boot it's a reasonable thing you can do with your computer, because you get different functionalities with different operative systems. I think Microsoft would have a problem them. Regards, Juanjo -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] efi boot, Windows 8 and Linux
On 22/09/2011 13:01, alan c wrote: On 22/09/11 12:50, Simon Greenwood wrote: On 22 September 2011 11:53, alan caecl...@candt.waitrose.com wrote: On 22/09/11 11:14, Simon Greenwood wrote: On 22 September 2011 10:50, alan caecl...@candt.waitrose.com wrote: On 22/09/11 09:47, Paul Sutton wrote: We would have to do a lot of awareness raising and support things like install days to get round things like this. as the borg say we will adapt The FLOSS world's lack of competence, or even appetite, for publicity or marketing is the elephant in the room. 1) FLOSS, GNU/Linux etc, 'marketing' is pretty well non existent compared to non free products. 'I advertise, therefore I exist' (apologies to Descartes). 2) Of all things, marketing is -very- unsuited to the free libre, distributed model. Marketing, maybe, promotion not. I would argue that that is pretty much why Ubuntu exists, to create a user-friendly Linux and to encourage its use. Community was the single most important reason why I personally started to use Ubuntu. This is almost a word of mouth thing. Person direct to person. I am not saying we cannot do anything at all, just that evidence suggests that we are not going to win with ONLY existing strategies. Promotion: how is marketing different from promotion? Do microsoft have a marketing department and a promotion department? Our lack of experience in these matters is painful. -- That's a good philosophical question. Microsoft has marketing and Linux has advocacy. I wouldn't say there's a lack of experience, just not a single monolithic business that pushed Linux on the desktop, which where Windows is concerned, has been Microsoft's policy for a good 20 years. There's no shortage of companies marketing the benefits of Linux on the server side: HP, Oracle and IBM to name the biggest, but the argument is always the cost benefit of migration. The biggest barrier to get over on the desktop is that Windows is just there, that people think of IE as 'The Internet' and that Word is the only way to do word processing. People still want it to Just Work, which is where Apple gets it right with a Unix based operating system, albeit with a increasingly proprietary desktop on a very limited subset of hardware. When there's a Linux-based desktop that does that, a decent part of the battle will be won. So, on the grounds that if we 'continue to do what we have always done', we 'get what we always got', what then? I think that the major problem is this: MS and Windows is SO ingrained into the public consciousness (fuelled by what certainly in the past were undoubted very rapacious and dubious business practices) that's it's going to be a VERY hard job to change public perception. The general public ARE swayed by what they see advertised, whether on TV or in magazines. All the people who go for designer label clothing etc. THEY are the sort of people who drift along to PC World and get sold - a Windows machine, a) because there is no choice and b) because they don't know and don't care whether Linux exists or not. I think that there does have to be some sort of advertising campaign - I would suggest on the security and no viruses angle - but until that happens them I'm afraid that Linux is going to be the preserve of server applications and the already converted... -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] efi boot, Windows 8 and Linux
On 22/09/2011 13:13, Juan J. Martínez wrote: On Thu, 2011-09-22 at 13:06 +0100, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On 22/09/2011 00:06, Alan Bell wrote: On 21/09/11 23:29, Bea Groves wrote: Just read the following. Comments? yeah, it is potentially very nasty. Even more so when the next step could be to require signed keys to run applications - then MS could control the hardware and the OS AND what people actually run on it. Don't you think laws regulating anti-competitive conduct will prevent that to happen? Actually any judge can argue that dual boot it's a reasonable thing you can do with your computer, because you get different functionalities with different operative systems. I think Microsoft would have a problem them. I certainly hope that will be the case, but the legal system hasn't exactly curbed a lot of MS's dubious practices in the past, has it? -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
[ubuntu-uk] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn
LinkedIn Dave Hanson requested to add you as a connection on LinkedIn: -- Liam, I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - Dave Accept invitation from Dave Hanson http://www.linkedin.com/e/uotj7b-gsvpptgm-2v/5NnxSC07JVySvt_0ERMKPS583KtivL_1Krx4o4Nj/blk/I190978568_11/1BpC5vrmRLoRZcjkkZt5YCpnlOt3RApnhMpmdzgmhxrSNBszYNclYUdzkUdPAMej59bSlopCRQjRxTbP0QcjcPcj8NcPgLrCBxbOYWrSlI/EML_comm_afe/?hs=falsetok=0m_Vj8POh6SAU1 View invitation from Dave Hanson http://www.linkedin.com/e/uotj7b-gsvpptgm-2v/5NnxSC07JVySvt_0ERMKPS583KtivL_1Krx4o4Nj/blk/I190978568_11/34NnPwSdjwTej0VckALqnpPbOYWrSlI/svi/?hs=falsetok=2KWE0IVlt6SAU1 -- Why might connecting with Dave Hanson be a good idea? Have a question? Dave Hanson's network will probably have an answer: You can use LinkedIn Answers to distribute your professional questions to Dave Hanson and your extended network. You can get high-quality answers from experienced professionals. http://www.linkedin.com/e/uotj7b-gsvpptgm-2v/ash/inv19_ayn/?hs=falsetok=0WdTm9Rs96SAU1 -- (c) 2011, LinkedIn Corporation-- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn
On 22 September 2011 13:22, Dave Hanson via LinkedIn mem...@linkedin.com wrote: Dave Hanson requested to add you as a connection on LinkedIn: I'm sure Dave feels a bit silly for this mail, so lets not start a massive thread about this. I've blocked mails from mem...@linkedin.com to the list so this shouldn't happen again. Thanks, Al. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Invitation to connect on LinkedIn
I really am sorry. The worst thing for me is that I checked it twice to make sure! Apologies everyone Dave On Sep 22, 2011 2:04 PM, Alan Pope a...@popey.com wrote: On 22 September 2011 13:22, Dave Hanson via LinkedIn mem...@linkedin.com wrote: Dave Hanson requested to add you as a connection on LinkedIn: I'm sure Dave feels a bit silly for this mail, so lets not start a massive thread about this. I've blocked mails from mem...@linkedin.com to the list so this shouldn't happen again. Thanks, Al. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
[ubuntu-uk] Marketing [Was Re: efi boot, Windows 8 and Linux]
On 22/09/11 10:50, alan c wrote: The FLOSS world's lack of competence, or even appetite, for publicity or marketing is the elephant in the room. 1) FLOSS, GNU/Linux etc, 'marketing' is pretty well non existent compared to non free products. 'I advertise, therefore I exist' (apologies to Descartes). 2) Of all things, marketing is -very- unsuited to the free libre, distributed model. It isn't marketing per se that's the issue. It is, plain and simply money. I read an article somewhere several years ago about how much money is spent on advertising/marketing by commercial software vendors. It was something extremely high, like 50% (I think it may have been more) of their entire REVENUE was spent telling people why they should buy their products, and 10% or so was spent on actually making the product... To market something successfully costs a great deal of money. Free Software, because of how it is produced and delivered, will never have the kind of budgets that MS/Oracle/INSERT VENDOR_OF_CHOICE_HERE have to spend. -- The Open Learning Centre http://www.theopenlearningcentre.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] efi boot, Windows 8 and Linux
On 22/09/11 13:13, Juan J. Martínez wrote: On Thu, 2011-09-22 at 13:06 +0100, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: On 22/09/2011 00:06, Alan Bell wrote: On 21/09/11 23:29, Bea Groves wrote: Just read the following. Comments? yeah, it is potentially very nasty. Even more so when the next step could be to require signed keys to run applications - then MS could control the hardware and the OS AND what people actually run on it. Don't you think laws regulating anti-competitive conduct will prevent that to happen? Actually any judge can argue that dual boot it's a reasonable thing you can do with your computer, because you get different functionalities with different operative systems. I think Microsoft would have a problem them. by which time the system will be set in and those who think that IE is the internet will simply not care as long as it works, until they want to actually do something different by which time it will be too late. Regards, Juanjo Who said judges were reasonable, we Paul -- Paul Sutton Cert SLPS (Open) http://www.zleap.net 17th September 2011 - Software freedom day -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
[ubuntu-uk] marketing
Hi I think to highlight the situation https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing#Posters there is a poster here, for 5.04, now that seems to be years and I mean years out of date its like trying to put up a poster to promote windows XP ) Surely there should be a policy of the lifecycle of posters or other materials is the same for that of the actual version so 8.04 and 10.04 being long term releases which i think have support cycles of 5 years, after 5 years the materials promoting these should be deleted, or as for normal releases its 3 years (i think) then purge after that. Just an idea Paul -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] efi boot, Windows 8 and Linux
On the other hand, the success of the iPad and other tablets has blurred the distinction between PC and phone and the tablet-type device may supersede the PC more in the coming years, something which Microsoft have seen and responded to by finally porting Windows to ARM, something which Unity is intended also to address. The traditional PC may end up playing a smaller role in the hardware ecosystem than it has previously. As Alan says, in the short term though, Linux will have to adapt to EFI what does EFI mean,? Paul -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] marketing
On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 5:06 PM, paul sutton zl...@zleap.net wrote: Hi I think to highlight the situation https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing#Posters there is a poster here, for 5.04, now that seems to be years and I mean years out of date its like trying to put up a poster to promote windows XP ) Surely there should be a policy of the lifecycle of posters or other materials is the same for that of the actual version so 8.04 and 10.04 being long term releases which i think have support cycles of 5 years, after 5 years the materials promoting these should be deleted, or as for normal releases its 3 years (i think) then purge after that. Just an idea Paul Archive old material, never delete. I love a bit of nostalgia every now and then, and it would be sad if we lost the poster forever. Becky -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] efi boot, Windows 8 and Linux
On Thu, 2011-09-22 at 17:12 +0100, paul sutton wrote: [...] As Alan says, in the short term though, Linux will have to adapt to EFI what does EFI mean,? Extensible Firmware Interface (was developed by Intel, now it's UEFI and it's supposed to be more open... but I think most of the time people uses EFI term instead of UEFI). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface It's a replacement for the BIOS. Regards, Juan -- jjm's home: http://www.usebox.net/jjm/ blackshell: http://blackshell.usebox.net/ en_GB@blog: http://engbblog.wordpress.com/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] marketing
On 22/09/11 17:30, Rebecca Newborough wrote: On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 5:06 PM, paul sutton zl...@zleap.net wrote: Hi I think to highlight the situation https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing#Posters there is a poster here, for 5.04, now that seems to be years and I mean years out of date its like trying to put up a poster to promote windows XP ) Surely there should be a policy of the lifecycle of posters or other materials is the same for that of the actual version so 8.04 and 10.04 being long term releases which i think have support cycles of 5 years, after 5 years the materials promoting these should be deleted, or as for normal releases its 3 years (i think) then purge after that. Just an idea Paul Archive old material, never delete. I love a bit of nostalgia every now and then, and it would be sad if we lost the poster forever. Becky Ok that sounds fine, archive in such a way that it does not come up in standard searches, a search will come up with material in the current release / support cycle and have a link to archived material on that page. that way newer material is easier to find. is this possible, technically viable, its about ensuring people can easily find new and up to date material, if most of us are volunteers we may have an hour or so free to find, process and print something the easier you make it, the more chance people will be able to help. even better a .deb package and put the materials in that and place this in the repositories. installed to a local but everyone can read / write directory unwanted items can be easily deleted leaving the ones the end user wants to use on the hard disk. Paul -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] [marketing] A lesson in marketing - Congo condoms - Ted5 minute video
On 22/09/11 12:31, thegeeksquad...@ymail.com wrote: A nice analogy, if not a bit dirty-minded, but we won't judge ;). The problem with Linux is that we always take it, take the patent infringements, take the lies, the barrage that Microsoft put upon us. Microsoft said that Linux infringes on its patents and tells that around, when in fact - it didn't. It used that as a marketing tool to stop it from getting share. I'm pretty sure they attempted to sue, but it was declared non-copyrightable code. Linus Torvalds should sue the living hell off of Microsoft for all they've done. While that may sound a good solution, I am sure Linus would think his time would be better spent at the computer making Linux better, court cases may be a solution but they are expensive and time consuming, the cost of a lawyer can buy new hardware and other bits and pieces to help with the development process which will make Linux work on more hardware and systems. The best thing we can do as a community is to ignore the FUD and use what money we do have to create something that is world class and then market this in the best way we can, word of mouth really helps. If a friend complains their computer has a virus, ask what is a virus?,and say you use Ubuntu and never have that issue, offer to dual boot their computer or at least boot a live cd and recover that essential file, they a) leave happy, b) get a good impression of how ubuntu (or any linux) is a good thing, and c) hopefully ask for it to be installed. Paul -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] efi boot, Windows 8 and Linux
On 22/09/11 10:50, alan c wrote: On 22/09/11 09:47, Paul Sutton wrote: We would have to do a lot of awareness raising and support things like install days to get round things like this. as the borg say we will adapt The FLOSS world's lack of competence, or even appetite, for publicity or marketing is the elephant in the room. 1) FLOSS, GNU/Linux etc, 'marketing' is pretty well non existent compared to non free products. 'I advertise, therefore I exist' (apologies to Descartes). 2) Of all things, marketing is -very- unsuited to the free libre, distributed model. To me, the upshot of this decision (if it is allowed to go through)* , is that it will simply make it much harder for the non-technical user who might decide to try Linux, to do so. I started using Ubuntu, personally, after my Windows XP exploded (a bit), and so I googled Linux, and found Ubuntu. I do not think that any non-technical user of a computer is likely to want to even go into the BIOS, let alone possibly remove a cover and looking for small switches. It does act, in my view, as something that won't prevent non-technical users from installing, but make it seem too hard for them to continue bothering. * I do, however, believe that the move by Microsoft will see fierce competition, and possibly even legal contest, from groups such as the FSF or the European Competition Commission, or the EFF. Additionally, many OEM's, especially on server systems, do support Linux, or variants thereupon, and will possibly disagree. It does make me wonder if big OEM's will start pulling out of things like the Windows Logo Program, but I'm not sure if it's likely, as the lack of that little sticker could indeed make prospective buyers worried, or uncertain.** ** This makes me think of this as another method of spreading FUD, but perhaps that's only me. Regards, John Oliver -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] efi boot, Windows 8 and Linux
another possibility is that more places may offer computers with linux installed or without OS (and cripple gadget) because there will then be a market for them to people like us, if we can't just buy any old pc and put our favourite distro on it. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] [marketing] A lesson in marketing - Congo condoms - Ted5 minute video
On 22/09/11 18:06, paul sutton wrote: If a friend complains their computer has a virus, ask what is a virus?,and say you use Ubuntu and never have that issue, offer to dual boot their computer or at least boot a live cd and recover that essential file, they a) leave happy, b) get a good impression of how ubuntu (or any linux) is a good thing, and c) hopefully ask for it to be installed. The timescales in such a situation can be quite long. I am in contact with a lot of Windows users at perpetual novice level, and if they know me they seem to regard my knowledge with some awe (which is touching because as Ubuntu users go I am on the novice side of experienced). However, people -simply- -do- -not- -believe- what I say and what others say, about, say Ubuntu. I have a friend who I worked with before we both retired some years ago. He was/is a mathematician and engineer. He was senior to me in technical matters. It took literally *several* years, until his XP laptop ground to a halt, before he was prepared to accept my help to make a dual boot machine. He now uses only the Ubuntu os. The turning point was a conversation, when I (again) (tactfully) mentioned the Ubuntu alternative. He suddenly said 'I HATE' Windows! He said he had another friend who was saying the *opposite* to what I was saying. That if he could not do Windows, then Linux was NOT for him (the 'L' word again) He trusted us both. And had a conflict of direction. His existing XP at least was familiar. So, we live in a situation where only complete desperation will prompt users to risk change. Then they need a lot of hand holding because at every turn they are faced with a Windows user prompting them to stay in the club. This is more than a monopoly of retail supply, there is a long term effect, fed I guess from Microsoft and their very skillful marketing people. There is psychology and emotional issues. Part of the effect arises from users being and feeling unable to understand or control what happens. They get to feel helpless. Things go wrong as they try to go through hoops, and they get frightened. And stay frightened. They get so un confident that it really takes an exceptional friend and exceptional situation to prompt a change. -- alan cocks Ubuntu user -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] efi boot, Windows 8 and Linux
On 22/09/11 21:14, richard wrote: another possibility is that more places may offer computers with linux installed or without OS (and cripple gadget) because there will then be a market for them to people like us, if we can't just buy any old pc and put our favourite distro on it. Well there seems to be a market for PC's minus an OS now, problem is there a lot of real hard core techies probably build their own systems, I can well sort of, but chose to buy a new system from ebuyer (emachines 1401) which works really well. How do you educate people about this new technology built in to BIOS's without boring people,.confusing people with what they see as compex jargon or worse coming across as paranoid. All of which is counter productive, unless it makes their life harder as a windows user, will people care or will they just accept it, and carry on. Do people care about how facebook operates as long as they can use facebook. if it helps, my new ubuntu poster gives the web addy of the Uk ubuntu list, so people can join and ask for help, from there people can direct to their local LInux user group. Paul -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
[ubuntu-uk] printer problem
After running update manager two days ago, and rebooting as instructed, my printer (Epson RX620) is no longer recognized. The system claims it is not connected (which the printer is, via an USB port, which I have changed twice). I have also tried rebooting with the printer disconnected and then switching it on, as well as rebooting with the printer connected and already switched on. It is not out of ink and it carries out its independent functions correctly. It seems to be a hell of a coincidence if the printer has gone faulty at this reboot. Has anyone any ideas or suggestions - gratefully received - ? Regards Allen Altrincham -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
