Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Curtis LaMasters wrote: ...I can't tell you how frustrating it is to have to click on each email in a thread to read its content. This caught my eye, and I wonder if there may be a correlation to user preference. I avoid using the mouse wherever possible, preferring keyboard-typed commands in CLI apps and keyboard shortcuts in GUI apps. I spend most of my online time using text-based news and mail clients, as I'm interested in word content and have optimized use of the keyboard for my particular clients. I can understand how clicking on every message would be tiresome. Maybe those who prefer a forum type of interface tend to prefer use of the mouse? Of the two who have seemed positive toward a forum, Curtis has implied preference for a mouse (e.g., even in MS Outlook I use strictly keyboard commands to read e-mail). I wonder if Peter might also prefer mouse use. -- Theodore (Ted) Heise t...@heise.nu Bloomington, IN, USA
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
Michael Hutchinson schrieb: Gidday Peter, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this 1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA! It's a bit like that when you're using Mailing lists, just another thing to get used to in I.T life! Spamassassin has more than one or two users now and I personally think that it should have a support forum to match the class of software, which is now world class. I know it's free and all that, but even so, if this is the only form of support they provide, I'm thinking that I'll just start an alternative support forum, using standard, full featured forum software (like SMF). Is there any support for this (I already know there will be opposition from those who are 'resident' here. Sorry guys, I just want do something to help those who just dive in when they have an urgent problem. No hard feelings I hope.) FWIW I think you're driving at creating a forum that would be easier to use or understand for the average joe-bloggs user. This is all very well, but Mailing Lists aren't exactly hard to stay on top of. As for using E-Mail to discuss problems with Spamassassin, I can think of nothing more applicable. Anyone being an Admin of a Spamassassin enabled Mail Server server, should be familiar enough with E-Mail to be able to handle Mailing Lists without too much fuss. If this is such a big problem perhaps they shouldn't be Administering a Mail Filtering system at all. Just my 2cents. Michael Hutchinson. I did not subscribe to the mailing list. I am using news.gmane.org and for me this is way the best to read. No forum software needed, no rules needed, I only need a newsreader (Thunderbird does this job qute good for me). Not everything that looks old fashioned is less comfortable than a teletubby webinterface ;-) Just to add my 2cents. Ralph Bornefeld-Ettmann
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
profanity no. Even if you cannot think properly and use your brain
the people here have brains that function.
{^_^}
- Original Message -
From: snowweb pe...@snowweb.co.uk
Sent: Tuesday, 2009/July/28 04:07
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this
1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and
this
list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA!
Spamassassin has more than one or two users now and I personally think
that
it should have a support forum to match the class of software, which is
now
world class.
I know it's free and all that, but even so, if this is the only form of
support they provide, I'm thinking that I'll just start an alternative
support forum, using standard, full featured forum software (like SMF).
Is there any support for this (I already know there will be opposition
from
those who are 'resident' here. Sorry guys, I just want do something to
help
those who just dive in when they have an urgent problem. No hard feelings
I
hope.)
Peter Snow
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Any-one-interested-in-using-a-proper-forum--tp24697144p24697144.html
Sent from the SpamAssassin - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
Actually I think Nabble is great for those of us who can't handle the traffic of the whole mailing list. And I wonder, what has REALLY gotten better since the '80s? Google, cell phones, and Priuses is all I can think of off the top of my head. Powershell seems like Bash finally invented for Windows... -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Any-one-interested-in-using-a-proper-forum--tp24697144p24747242.html Sent from the SpamAssassin - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Thursday, July 30, 2009 2:01 PM -0700 ktn j_engl...@kawasaki-tn.com wrote: Actually I think Nabble is great for those of us who can't handle the traffic of the whole mailing list. Or you could use a news reader pointed at Gmane's news server and subscribe to the SA newsgroups. A web interface is available here: http://news.gmane.org/gmane.mail.spam.spamassassin.general
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 14:01, ktnj_engl...@kawasaki-tn.com wrote: Actually I think Nabble is great for those of us who can't handle the traffic of the whole mailing list. If you're an RSS reader, I'd suggest getting an RSS feed from gmane. You can pick 4 types of feed: 1) full articles, 1 article per email 2) full articles, 1 article per thread 3) summary articles, 1 article per email 4) summary articles, 1 article per thread (I prefer the second one) My only remaining hurdle is ... figuring out how to be subscribed to this list, from any of my 3 email addresses, but not receive ANY email from the list itself. I know how to do that with some email lists, but not with the apache lists. I read the -help output, but it didn't give me the information I want (it told me how to be subscribed from multiple locations, but it sounded like I'd receive the same email at all of them, or at least still remain receiving email at the primary one). I also emailed the list owner, with no response at all. My goal is: read the initial message of a thread via RSS, if I'm interested in more, read the rest via gmane, reply via gmane, and receive submissions to my replies via being CC'ed on the replies. Have to wait and see how possible/plausible that is. I might have to switch to option 3. We'll see.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Jul 30, 2009, at 3:01 PM, ktn wrote: Actually I think Nabble is great for those of us who can't handle the traffic of the whole mailing list. I dunno, I looked at Nabble once when i was away from my computer and wanted to see quickly if there was a reply to a thread. The only word that came to mind was 'cesspit'. It's better than phpBB, but that is what is known as 'damning with faint praise'. But then again, I am naturally inclined against web-boards and the like. And I wonder, what has REALLY gotten better since the '80s? Google, cell phones, and Priuses is all I can think of off the top of my head. Powershell seems like Bash finally invented for Windows... Well, bash has gotten a lot better since the 80's. And OS X is a lot better than System V. FreeBSD is quite nice. I'll take slrn over rn/ trn any day, and just about any mail client over mail/mailx/pine/elm. Also, vim/nvi is a lot nicer than vi and nano is better than either unless you are hardwired for vi like I am. We have procmail now, long- in-the-tooth as it is, and well, OS X over any 80's OS, not even close. In the 80's I was using 300baud modems and 1200 (!!!) baud modems to get online, and that was in the LATE 80's. Today I have ~20Mbit downstream. Yes, a little over 2 Megabytes per SECOND. Cameras are a lot better and don't need film. TV is better (both in image quality and quality and quantity of shows). I have an 80 screen for my projector, that's better. Eyeglasses are a lot better, as are casts for broken bones and pretty much every surgery you can think of. MRIs are better, heck, the entire medical field has gone through a sea change in the 30 years. In fact, not much has gotten worse. Music, especially the music business is a lot worse, but it was already on the downslope by the early 80's. Politics, yeah... big slide there. but in terms of technology? I would never go back. -- Don't ride in anything with a Capissen-38 engine, they fall right out of the sky
RE: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
Gidday Peter, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this 1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA! It's a bit like that when you're using Mailing lists, just another thing to get used to in I.T life! Spamassassin has more than one or two users now and I personally think that it should have a support forum to match the class of software, which is now world class. I know it's free and all that, but even so, if this is the only form of support they provide, I'm thinking that I'll just start an alternative support forum, using standard, full featured forum software (like SMF). Is there any support for this (I already know there will be opposition from those who are 'resident' here. Sorry guys, I just want do something to help those who just dive in when they have an urgent problem. No hard feelings I hope.) FWIW I think you're driving at creating a forum that would be easier to use or understand for the average joe-bloggs user. This is all very well, but Mailing Lists aren't exactly hard to stay on top of. As for using E-Mail to discuss problems with Spamassassin, I can think of nothing more applicable. Anyone being an Admin of a Spamassassin enabled Mail Server server, should be familiar enough with E-Mail to be able to handle Mailing Lists without too much fuss. If this is such a big problem perhaps they shouldn't be Administering a Mail Filtering system at all. Just my 2cents. Michael Hutchinson.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 5:01 PM, ktnj_engl...@kawasaki-tn.com wrote: Actually I think Nabble is great for those of us who can't handle the traffic of the whole mailing list. This list generates less than 50 messages per day on average: http://gmane.org/plot-rate.php/plot.png?group=gmane.mail.spam.spamassassin.generalplot.png I've got to ask, what type of system are you using that can't handle this traffic? And does SA even run on such a thing :)? And I wonder, what has REALLY gotten better since the '80s? Google, cell phones, and Priuses is all I can think of off the top of my head. Powershell seems like Bash finally invented for Windows... -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Any-one-interested-in-using-a-proper-forum--tp24697144p24747242.html Sent from the SpamAssassin - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 17:54, Aaron Wolfeaawo...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 5:01 PM, ktnj_engl...@kawasaki-tn.com wrote: Actually I think Nabble is great for those of us who can't handle the traffic of the whole mailing list. This list generates less than 50 messages per day on average: http://gmane.org/plot-rate.php/plot.png?group=gmane.mail.spam.spamassassin.generalplot.png I've got to ask, what type of system are you using that can't handle this traffic? And does SA even run on such a thing :)? You say that as though this list is all we read. If this list was ALL I read, instead of 100's of emails per day from all of my list, work, personal, etc. correspondence, then that'd be different. Further, this list has one of the lowest signal to noise ratios of any of the lists I'm on (don't get me wrong, when I say noise here, I don't mean totally worthless, I mean not relevant to me). So, the logical choice of reducing the flood of traffic is by cutting back on how many of those 50-100 emails per day hit my inbox.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:07 PM, John Ruddjr...@ucsc.edu wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 17:54, Aaron Wolfeaawo...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 5:01 PM, ktnj_engl...@kawasaki-tn.com wrote: Actually I think Nabble is great for those of us who can't handle the traffic of the whole mailing list. This list generates less than 50 messages per day on average: http://gmane.org/plot-rate.php/plot.png?group=gmane.mail.spam.spamassassin.generalplot.png I've got to ask, what type of system are you using that can't handle this traffic? And does SA even run on such a thing :)? You say that as though this list is all we read. I interpretted the phrase handle the traffic to mean something the mail server was doing, not a human :) If this list was ALL I read, instead of 100's of emails per day from all of my list, work, personal, etc. correspondence, then that'd be different. Further, this list has one of the lowest signal to noise ratios of any of the lists I'm on (don't get me wrong, when I say noise here, I don't mean totally worthless, I mean not relevant to me). So, the logical choice of reducing the flood of traffic is by cutting back on how many of those 50-100 emails per day hit my inbox.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Jul 28, 2009, at 7:13 PM, Chris wrote:
:0
* ^List-Id: users.spamassassin.apache.org
| /usr/bin/formail -IReply-To: users@spamassassin.apache.org
$SATALK
No, you can only have ONE and only ONE action per recipe. You cannot
have 0, you cannot have 2. ONE action per recipe, full stop.
:0
* ^List-Id: users.spamassassin.apache.org
{
:0
| /usr/bin/formail -IReply-To: users@spamassassin.apache.org
:0
$SATALK
}
(The LIST-ID recipe's action is do what's in the braces.)
although I much prefer the recipes I posted earlier, but then again,
my mailing list recipes handled dozens of lists and I don't even have
to edit the recipes for new lists unless it is to add reply-to headers.
--
Major Strasser has been shot. Round up the usual suspects.
Re: [OT] Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi folks, I am unable to read in forums 90% of my time and not motivated for the rest as I am traveling a lot reading mail on my mobile devices mostly. Watching non-email discussions is nothing I could afford so I would be pleased if you could stick to the given media. Thanks CIAOii Thomas Mike Cardwell wrote: mouss wrote: Good for you. I've signed up for many mailing lists AND forums. There is nothing inherently better or worse in either of them, No that's wrong, they're quite different and both have advantages and disadvantages. so, it's YES, not NO. Henrik said nothing [snip] better or worse, which is what you said. Why did you snip the single word inherently ? There seems to be a basic logic flaw in what you're saying. He said, Nothing inherently better or worse and I said, yes there is. That doesn't mean I agree with him. For an example of something that is inherently better in mailing lists: The message delivery mechanism. English is my first language, I know what I'm saying when I write it. [snip] If someone set up a proper SA forum, I'd be happy to stop by. But it might be hard to get all the developers and other active participants join there, which is what makes all the difference. Set up the forum. It might work. I'm not anti-forum, I just think mailing lists are generally better. I too prefer mailing lists. but I think it's because I am used to. and firefox eats too much memory... (don't tell me about flash). Use a different web browser? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: ** signed with GnuPG from EnigMAIL/Mozilla Thunderbird ** Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQEVAwUBSnAJ5BogRQP0UDktAQIzugf/ViLT/W62Q6hXUkj1k4mBuXNz1MXP7ISN YGirtlX08ar7S9K3wXx4LesCk9l08S4R3Ey1iGhoXpee9qoZsDQdmX/6lPyHIOYi pGdBYbD7WYVNW4GpmaOY1ZGnE/e4uaxuyUtfBVkW/GQirdIOfAodY1W5vS+d+DJI sDr7773Tsu+N3gQzpe+GyzD8zbYpMe1rvUf3NG+AbH0P7rxVUc/UdVqTPM9taOji S993BROLuJbshGIEAR9T94I/+7l5stC2a2eFZw110AhU5/tM5t2jjaWTAJh/2qsZ O5/NI1G0FobDNIyugnPpeCM1AqynUkIHw+bSDI5iM0GcSCbVvfqbRA== =Pi91 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
Am 2009-07-28 04:07:23, schrieb snowweb: I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this 1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA! Based on the reactions so far, it seems like there is a very clear answer to the original question: NOBODY, except the original poster, has posted anything indicating any interest whatever in using a proper forum. In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra
RE: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
Finally a personal point: PLEASE don't implement smilies/emoticons as part of the forum. The WINE mailing list often contains messages from the linked forum that end like this: . but it still doesn't work [crying/very sad]. +1 from me. Also, you might want to start up a blog / wiki or something similar to get some critical mass in terms of users. People are more likely to come across your site and sign up if there's some content to draw them. And they'll hang around (perhaps) if there are other people there to reply to their posts. Best of luck, anyway. Ralph
Re: [sa] Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tirs, Juli 28, 2009 19:27, Charles Gregory wrote: On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, John Hardin wrote: Yeah, thanks! I'm always forgetting to fix the To line in my replies! Procmail/Formail will do nicely! Post your snippet when it's working, plz. Thanks. :0fw * ^(To|Cc):.*(use...@spamassassin|spamassassin.users) | /usr/bin/formail -IReply-To: users@spamassassin.apache.org Your path to formail may vary... :) This snippet could be further enhanced to replace the 'From' if you never really care who sent the message, and want to see 'SA List' in the 'From' column of your mail client index, for easy ID/sort: :0fw * ^(To|Cc):.*(use...@spamassassin|spamassassin.users) | /usr/bin/formail -IFrom: SA List users@spamassassin.apache.org Enjoy! make a patch to ezmlm now ? :))) there is always geeks out there that ignore List-* -- xpoint
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Ons, Juli 29, 2009 00:05, mouss wrote:
Just going to tell you something: people who know SA are on this list.
you can create whatever ${something} elsewhere, but if you can't get
these guys there, you'll only lose your time.
3660 secs ? (one hour joke)
--
xpoint
Any one interested in using a proper forum?
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this 1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA! Spamassassin has more than one or two users now and I personally think that it should have a support forum to match the class of software, which is now world class. I know it's free and all that, but even so, if this is the only form of support they provide, I'm thinking that I'll just start an alternative support forum, using standard, full featured forum software (like SMF). Is there any support for this (I already know there will be opposition from those who are 'resident' here. Sorry guys, I just want do something to help those who just dive in when they have an urgent problem. No hard feelings I hope.) Peter Snow -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Any-one-interested-in-using-a-proper-forum--tp24697144p24697144.html Sent from the SpamAssassin - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this 1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA! Spamassassin has more than one or two users now and I personally think that it should have a support forum to match the class of software, which is now world class. I know it's free and all that, but even so, if this is the only form of support they provide, I'm thinking that I'll just start an alternative support forum, using standard, full featured forum software (like SMF). Is there any support for this (I already know there will be opposition from those who are 'resident' here. Sorry guys, I just want do something to help those who just dive in when they have an urgent problem. No hard feelings I hope.) Peter Snow SMF is not a standard. Email is a standard, or at least some RFC's. I have no plans for browsing some website for this. A mailing list is free, push type service, which I prefer.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 04:07 -0700, snowweb wrote: I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this 1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA! If you have difficulty with an email list I'm wondering it is probable that you may have some issues setting up email filtering with something like SA. Spamassassin has more than one or two users now and I personally think that it should have a support forum to match the class of software, which is now world class. It is, you'll find it stolen and in appliances like the Barracuda 'Spam Virus' firewall where people pay good money for free software... I know it's free and all that, see last comment but even so, if this is the only form of support they provide, I'm thinking that I'll just start an alternative support forum, using standard, full featured forum software (like SMF). Go ahead, it's a free world. Is there any support for this (I already know there will be opposition from those who are 'resident' here. Sorry guys, I just want do something to help those who just dive in when they have an urgent problem. No hard feelings I hope.) You could offer to pay a consultant for any urgent support you need, or use something like 'experts exchange' if the level and quality of the free software and free support is not good enough for you. Peter Snow
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this 1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA! What kind of a forum do you see? I use this as an email list, straight from my email application. I don't use Nabble or Google Groups (whatever those might be..). Quite convenient. Just subscribe and enjoy.
[OT] Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
Jari Fredriksson wrote: I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this 1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA! Spamassassin has more than one or two users now and I personally think that it should have a support forum to match the class of software, which is now world class. I know it's free and all that, but even so, if this is the only form of support they provide, I'm thinking that I'll just start an alternative support forum, using standard, full featured forum software (like SMF). Is there any support for this (I already know there will be opposition from those who are 'resident' here. Sorry guys, I just want do something to help those who just dive in when they have an urgent problem. No hard feelings I hope.) Peter Snow SMF is not a standard. Email is a standard, or at least some RFC's. I have no plans for browsing some website for this. A mailing list is free, push type service, which I prefer. Mailing lists are much better. I'm signed up for a couple of dozen mailing lists and they pretty much all work exactly the same. I don't want to learn a couple of dozen different types of web based forum software. When I send a message to a mailing list, it gets pushed out to the mailboxes of everyone who is a member, and when they respond I get an almost immediate response in my mailbox. Far more efficient than forum software. -- Mike Cardwell - IT Consultant and LAMP developer Cardwell IT Ltd. (UK Reg'd Company #06920226) http://cardwellit.com/
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
- snowweb pe...@snowweb.co.uk wrote: I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this 1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA! Spamassassin has more than one or two users now and I personally think that it should have a support forum to match the class of software, which is now world class. I know it's free and all that, but even so, if this is the only form of support they provide, I'm thinking that I'll just start an alternative support forum, using standard, full featured forum software (like SMF). Is there any support for this (I already know there will be opposition from those who are 'resident' here. Sorry guys, I just want do something to help those who just dive in when they have an urgent problem. No hard feelings I hope.) Peter Snow As a moderator for a very large forum I hope you have lined up a good group of mods to handle all the SPAM you will get ;) Best Regards, -- SplatNIX IT Services :: Innovation through collaboration
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Jul 28, 2009, at 5:07 AM, snowweb wrote: I know it's free and all that, but even so, if this is the only form of support they provide, I'm thinking that I'll just start an alternative support forum, using standard, full featured forum software (like SMF). Good luck with that. HTML/WWW is great for many things, but web- boards are an abomination. -- Nothing gold can stay -- Robert Frost Stay gold -- Johnny Cade
Re: [OT] Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 12:29 +0100, Mike Cardwell wrote: Jari Fredriksson wrote: Snoweb wrote: I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this 1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA! Spamassassin has more than one or two users now and I personally think that it should have a support forum to match the class of software, which is now world class. I know it's free and all that, but even so, if this is the only form of support they provide, I'm thinking that I'll just start an alternative support forum, using standard, full featured forum software (like SMF). Is there any support for this (I already know there will be opposition from those who are 'resident' here. Sorry guys, I just want do something to help those who just dive in when they have an urgent problem. No hard feelings I hope.) Peter Snow SMF is not a standard. Email is a standard, or at least some RFC's. I have no plans for browsing some website for this. A mailing list is free, push type service, which I prefer. Mailing lists are much better. I'm signed up for a couple of dozen mailing lists and they pretty much all work exactly the same. I don't want to learn a couple of dozen different types of web based forum software. When I send a message to a mailing list, it gets pushed out to the mailboxes of everyone who is a member, and when they respond I get an almost immediate response in my mailbox. Far more efficient than forum software. I have to agree... As long as you register as a member of the mailing list and (optionally) filter the mail into specific folders/directories for each mailing list and (importantly) use a decent email client such as Mutt or Thunderbird or Evolution which enables proper threading, then mailing lists are extremely efficient and effective. I am a member of several technical mailing lists of which this is one. All work in the same way, all are very effective. Some have more helpful people than others - but this one I would say has some of the most helpful (if not always the most tolerant) folks of any of them. Set up your mail delivery system, set up your mail client, subscribe and enjoy... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
snowweb wrote: I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this 1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA! Spamassassin has more than one or two users now and I personally think that it should have a support forum to match the class of software, which is now world class. I know it's free and all that, but even so, if this is the only form of support they provide, I'm thinking that I'll just start an alternative support forum, using standard, full featured forum software (like SMF). Is there any support for this (I already know there will be opposition from those who are 'resident' here. Sorry guys, I just want do something to help those who just dive in when they have an urgent problem. No hard feelings I hope.) Peter Snow I am not particularly interested in having to go a shop for information when I can have it sent to me. List mail also has the advantage of being fully compatible with plain text viewing, at my leisure. Feel free though to start a forum if you wish. DAve -- Posterity, you will know how much it cost the present generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that ever I took half the pains to preserve it. John Quincy Adams http://appleseedinfo.org
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
Jari Fredriksson wrote: What kind of a forum do you see? I use this as an email list, straight from my email application. I don't use Nabble or Google Groups (whatever those might be..). Quite convenient. Just subscribe and enjoy. I'm trying to view these threads online, it's obvious that this is more orientated to mailing list users, buy the two minutes effort that they spent building the online 'forum' type interface. I notice that when you compare the install base of SpamAssassin which must be in the hundreds of thousands or more, with the number of support requests being added to this mailing list, it is clear that most requiring support are intimidated by this alien way of providing it. Out of all those people only eight needed support so far today! That's unbelievable. Somethings wrong here; Very wrong. Most of the internet community is used to obtaining support from forums, not mailing lists. Take my control panel provider DirectAdmin. They have a far smaller install base, supplying software which is significantly more intuitive than SA, but they have 413 users currently online on their support forum and have therefore probably had thousands of support requests today alone. Can you see what I'm driving at? I understand that you guys like to work this way and you enjoy what you are doing, but unfortunately your great skills are being underexposed because of the lack of a proper forum. If the forum is done right, it should be able to provide you and the others with the same features you currently enjoy (ie. the ability to receive requests and respond by email) while at the same time, catering for the needs of those (who seem to be the majority), who prefer to work via http. I wouldn't have interrupted you nice community with this issue, but unfortunately, when I search for spamassassin support forums online, this is about the best I can come up with (which I don't think is serving the majority of the SpamAssassin users... the numbers just don't add up). -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Any-one-interested-in-using-a-proper-forum--tp24697144p24697808.html Sent from the SpamAssassin - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [OT] Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:29:53PM +0100, Mike Cardwell wrote: Jari Fredriksson wrote: I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this 1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA! Spamassassin has more than one or two users now and I personally think that it should have a support forum to match the class of software, which is now world class. I know it's free and all that, but even so, if this is the only form of support they provide, I'm thinking that I'll just start an alternative support forum, using standard, full featured forum software (like SMF). Is there any support for this (I already know there will be opposition from those who are 'resident' here. Sorry guys, I just want do something to help those who just dive in when they have an urgent problem. No hard feelings I hope.) Peter Snow SMF is not a standard. Email is a standard, or at least some RFC's. I have no plans for browsing some website for this. A mailing list is free, push type service, which I prefer. Mailing lists are much better. I'm signed up for a couple of dozen mailing lists and they pretty much all work exactly the same. I don't want to learn a couple of dozen different types of web based forum software. When I send a message to a mailing list, it gets pushed out to the mailboxes of everyone who is a member, and when they respond I get an almost immediate response in my mailbox. Far more efficient than forum software. Good for you. I've signed up for many mailing lists AND forums. There is nothing inherently better or worse in either of them, it's all up to your tastes. But it's not like there are dozen different types of forums (I don't really count the crappy sourceforge etc ones). When properly setup, forums offer excellent categorization and search possibilities etc. Makes no difference to me whether I open up my list-inbox or browser+bookmark. If someone set up a proper SA forum, I'd be happy to stop by. But it might be hard to get all the developers and other active participants join there, which is what makes all the difference.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 04:07:23 -0700 (PDT) snowweb pe...@snowweb.co.uk wrote: I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this 1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA! Spamassassin has more than one or two users now and I personally think that it should have a support forum to match the class of software, which is now world class. I know it's free and all that, but even so, if this is the only form of support they provide, I'm thinking that I'll just start an alternative support forum, using standard, full featured forum software (like SMF). What exactly do you want that a mailing list can't provide? Avatars, pretty colours, banner adverts? Most forum software doesn't even support decent threading. And if you think email is obsolete, what are you doing here in the first place?
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 12:54 +0100, RW wrote: I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this 1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA! [...] And if you think email is obsolete, what are you doing here in the first place? Correct me if I'm wrong but I suspect that the creator of this whole thread didn't mean the mailing list but he browsed the archives on some site. Maybe he meant this: There is also a forum-style user interface for the list at Nabble.com, where you can post questions and get answers without subscribing by mail. The interface od that site is really not state of the art. Anyone however is free to subscribe to the list and set up his own forum-like archives, so there's not much point in criticizing. -- \.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\ UNDERWEAR SHOULD BE WORN ON THE INSIDE(Bart .\.k...@epsilon.eu.org.\.\. Simpson on chalkboard in episode 8F08) \.http://epsilon.eu.org/\.\ .\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.\.
Re: [OT] Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
Henrik K wrote: Mailing lists are much better. I'm signed up for a couple of dozen mailing lists and they pretty much all work exactly the same. I don't want to learn a couple of dozen different types of web based forum software. When I send a message to a mailing list, it gets pushed out to the mailboxes of everyone who is a member, and when they respond I get an almost immediate response in my mailbox. Far more efficient than forum software. Good for you. I've signed up for many mailing lists AND forums. There is nothing inherently better or worse in either of them, No that's wrong, they're quite different and both have advantages and disadvantages. it's all up to your tastes. But it's not like there are dozen different types of forums (I don't really count the crappy sourceforge etc ones). There are dozens. Whether or not you choose to count some of them in your own personal list isn't really relevant. When properly setup, forums offer excellent categorization and search possibilities etc. Makes no difference to me whether I open up my list-inbox or browser+bookmark. List archives. There is a list of different places at http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/MailingLists which archive the list messages and each have different search capabilities. If someone set up a proper SA forum, I'd be happy to stop by. But it might be hard to get all the developers and other active participants join there, which is what makes all the difference. Set up the forum. It might work. I'm not anti-forum, I just think mailing lists are generally better. -- Mike Cardwell - IT Consultant and LAMP developer Cardwell IT Ltd. (UK Reg'd Company #06920226) http://cardwellit.com/
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 04:50 -0700, snowweb wrote: Jari Fredriksson wrote: What kind of a forum do you see? I use this as an email list, straight from my email application. I don't use Nabble or Google Groups (whatever those might be..). Quite convenient. Just subscribe and enjoy. ACK. I'm trying to view these threads online, it's obvious that this is more Completely wrong approach. Find a decent MUA, subscribe the ML as such and enjoy it. If you don't know a MUA yet, start with thunderbird. orientated to mailing list users, buy the two minutes effort that they spent building the online 'forum' type interface. I notice that when you compare So you probably get the worst of both worlds - completely unreadable web pages and an awful user interface for answers. BTW I don't think that some PHP/CGI-scripts (with or without JavaScript) can solve the inherent problems of web pages. See above under Find a the install base of SpamAssassin which must be in the hundreds of thousands or more, with the number of support requests being added to this mailing list, it is clear that most requiring support are intimidated by this alien way of providing it. Or they just read documentation, try something out, read the source and generally get some understanding of the *problem* before trying to make the own problem the problem of others. Out of all those people only eight needed support so far today! That's unbelievable. Somethings wrong here; Very wrong. Or something is very very right and correct[0] (as opposed to most of the commercial and proprietary world as you just implicitly confirmed). BTW you are also completely ignoring the target audience of SpamAssassin as such - it is IMHO probably *not* the Joe Plumbers out there (but more the admin-like types - and they tend to have a significantly different approach and way of solving problems). And you ignore completely the motivation of people giving support - see further down for more. Most of the internet community is used to obtaining support from forums, not Only the Joe Plumbers which - obviously - do not learn to use a MUA. I saw lots of forums referenced by Google and none was even remotely readable as the average MUA with (sane) threading support. Let alone that most people throw there problems out and never got an answer. mailing lists. Take my control panel provider DirectAdmin. They have a far smaller install base, supplying software which is significantly more intuitive than SA, but they have 413 users currently online on their support forum and have therefore probably had thousands of support requests today alone. Can you see what I'm driving at? Feel free to start and run such a beast if you feel like it. I understand that you guys like to work this way and you enjoy what you are doing, but unfortunately your great skills are being underexposed because of Is it? Why exactly? the lack of a proper forum. Please proof that the missing proper forum - whatever that might be in detail - is the reason for underexposition. If the forum is done right, it should be able to provide you and the others with the same features you currently enjoy (ie. the ability to receive requests and respond by email) while at the same time, catering for the needs of those (who seem to be the majority), who prefer to work via http. Then proof us (or at least /me who happens to read/glance dozens of MLs[1] - and some *are* quite high volume) wrong and feel free to start such a beast and run it for at least a year or so if you feel like it. I wouldn't have interrupted you nice community with this issue, but unfortunately, when I search for spamassassin support forums online, this is about the best I can come up with (which I don't think is serving the majority of the SpamAssassin users... the numbers just don't add up). Please proof that. Thank you. And since people are here not paid (TTBOMK), it is up to these people to decide who to help and how to help. Bernd [0]: Think about it: If I have an *intuitive* user interface, why do I need documentation at all? So IMHO a large bookshelf of books about (so-called) user-friendly software is just a sign of bad user interface design. [1]: And no, replacing *one* tool - the MUA - for dozens of MLs with dozens of different forums - each software with a different user interface, design[1], bugs, quirks and other inconveniences - is really not an option. [2]: text/plain is the optimal MIME-tyoe. HTML-Mails are in my experience also unreadable in almost all cases. -- Firmix Software GmbH http://www.firmix.at/ mobil: +43 664 4416156 fax: +43 1 7890849-55 Embedded Linux Development and Services
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 04:50 -0700, snowweb wrote: Jari Fredriksson wrote: What kind of a forum do you see? I use this as an email list, straight from my email application. I don't use Nabble or Google Groups (whatever those might be..). Quite convenient. Just subscribe and enjoy. I'm trying to view these threads online, it's obvious that this is more orientated to mailing list users, buy the two minutes effort that they spent building the online 'forum' type interface. There is no official forum type interface, so whatever you are looking at was hacked up by others. I notice that when you compare the install base of SpamAssassin which must be in the hundreds of thousands or more, with the number of support requests being added to this mailing list, it is clear that most requiring support are intimidated by this alien way of providing it. Who said this was a support forum? This is a users list, where users get together and commiserate about our tool, think of ways to improve it, bounce ideas off each other about our own implementations, and generally work as a team towards our end goal - the Final Ultimate Solution to the Spam Problem [1]. Yes, some of the developers lurk here and occasionally contribute. But they have busy lives and prefer to be working, spending time with their families, or coding. Not necessarily in that order. And some of the users here occasionally develop, but that's what bugzilla and the devel list are for. As for this format... well, I've been using mailing lists and usenet since about 1990, so this is the most comfortable way for me to communicate. SpamAssassin deals with raw mail, so it is expected that users will be comfortable using mail. [1]http://www.rhyolite.com/anti-spam/you-might-be.html -- Daniel J McDonald, CCIE # 2495, CISSP # 78281, CNX www.austinenergy.com
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, snowweb wrote: I'm trying to view these threads online, it's obvious that this is more orientated to mailing list users, buy the two minutes effort that they spent building the online 'forum' type interface. I notice that when you compare the install base of SpamAssassin which must be in the hundreds of thousands or more, with the number of support requests being added to this mailing list, it is clear that most requiring support are intimidated by this alien way of providing it. Out of all those people only eight needed support so far today! That's unbelievable. Somethings wrong here; Very wrong. Perhaps the software works fine? Or perhaps the people asking questions decided to do a google search first and found their answer that way. Most of the internet community is used to obtaining support from forums, not mailing lists. Take my control panel provider DirectAdmin. They have a far smaller install base, supplying software which is significantly more intuitive than SA, but they have 413 users currently online on their support forum and have therefore probably had thousands of support requests today alone. Can you see what I'm driving at? That means 413 people logged in to read the forum recently. Since they have to poll for new information it is hardly surprising there are a significant number marked as online. I understand that you guys like to work this way and you enjoy what you are doing, but unfortunately your great skills are being underexposed because of the lack of a proper forum. The people on this list are not getting paid for it so I imagine they don't really care that their skills are underexposed (although I don't really concede that is the case anyway). If the forum is done right, it should be able to provide you and the others with the same features you currently enjoy (ie. the ability to receive requests and respond by email) while at the same time, catering for the needs of those (who seem to be the majority), who prefer to work via http. For forums to work the same way they would need to be bridged to a mailing list so that existing users could just keep using their old setup. I have in the past looked for stuff that bridges between forums and mailing lists (or news groups) but it doesn't seem to exist :( I wouldn't have interrupted you nice community with this issue, but unfortunately, when I search for spamassassin support forums online, this is about the best I can come up with (which I don't think is serving the majority of the SpamAssassin users... the numbers just don't add up). How about the nabble version of the list? http://www.nabble.com/SpamAssassin-f191.html It might be more to your liking.. -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from. -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Any-one-interested-in-using-a-proper-forum--tp24697144p24697144.html Sent from the SpamAssassin - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. He's clearly using Nabble, and thinks that's the primary interface for the list ... So, Peter, if you think Nabble sucks, provide an alternative. But don't mistake Nabble as being the primary interface for the list. The primary interface for the list is: the list itself (ie. delivery to your email address). As for the side debate about lists vs forums ... each has its place. Forums can be better, IMO, for lighter involvement in the overall flood of messages, for focusing on a given topic area, or for casual browsing. But they're lousy for trying to be involved in the ENTIRE presence of the message flow. They're also lousy in terms of choice -- email lets you pick your client, forums don't. Personally, when I'm so lightly involved in a message stream that I don't want to be subscribed to the entire list, I prefer to use the RSS interface to a forum (or, an RSS feed into a forum). Especially if the RSS feed only posts 1 message per topic (the lead in message of the topic). Then I can skim the topics, pick which ones to dive in to or not. Then I can subscribe to updates of a given topic that I like (and read them in the forum, or maybe in my email if they send you 1 message per update, instead of 1 message per day), or not. If I don't, then I _never_ see that topic again. And either way, I don't store a flood of messages in my account (not before I read them, not after I read them). I would agree with Peter on the front that I've never seen a good combination mailing list and forum. Forums tend to have lousy email interfaces, and mailing lists tend to have lousy forum clones. My brief exposure to Nabble doesn't alter my impression of that. But that's probably because forums and lists have VERY different organizations. They both have topics (subject threads on a mailing list), but aside from that, lists tend to have no higher level of organization than that ... and forums tend to have multiple topic streams. But that doesn't mean that the SA community is lacking just because Nabble sucks. It means Peter is being lazy about his involvement in the community, avoiding using it directly by using it via a filtered interface (Nabble), and then complaining about it. Though ... it'd be nice if there was a direct RSS feed for the users list. Hopefully Nabble isn't my only choice for an RSS feed :-} (esp. since it posts 1 RSS message per email message, and only appears to do periodic RSS updates, not more live/continuous ones) Any help/suggestions on better RSS feeds for this list would be appreciated :-)
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
John Rudd wrote: View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Any-one-interested-in-using-a-proper-forum--tp24697144p24697144.html Sent from the SpamAssassin - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. SNIP Any help/suggestions on better RSS feeds for this list would be appreciated :-) Perhaps: http://www.mailbucket.org The only criticism i have with the SA list is that the Reply-To header isn't set, meaning most mail clients will reply directly to the person - rather than the list. Perhaps I should add some procmail foo, but ho hum. Kind Regards, Dave Walker
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 06:16 -0700, John Rudd wrote: Though ... it'd be nice if there was a direct RSS feed for the users list. Hopefully Nabble isn't my only choice for an RSS feed :-} (esp. since it posts 1 RSS message per email message, and only appears to do periodic RSS updates, not more live/continuous ones) gmane.org isn't terrible. I use it to track the devel list, but prefer to monitor the user list in e-mail. -- Daniel J McDonald, CCIE # 2495, CISSP # 78281, CNX www.austinenergy.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
Dave Walker wrote: View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Any-one-interested-in-using-a-proper-forum--tp24697144p24697144.html Sent from the SpamAssassin - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. SNIP Any help/suggestions on better RSS feeds for this list would be appreciated :-) Perhaps: http://www.mailbucket.org The only criticism i have with the SA list is that the Reply-To header isn't set, meaning most mail clients will reply directly to the person - rather than the list. Perhaps I should add some procmail foo, but ho hum. For those using Thunderbird, I have an addon installed named Reply to mailing list which adds a button Reply list inbetween Reply and Reply All which has been very useful. -- Mike Cardwell - IT Consultant and LAMP developer Cardwell IT Ltd. (UK Reg'd Company #06920226) http://cardwellit.com/
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
Le 28/07/2009 15:31, Mike Cardwell a écrit : For those using Thunderbird, I have an addon installed named Reply to mailing list which adds a button Reply list inbetween Reply and Reply All which has been very useful. For that matter, for those using Thunderbird 3.0b3, this feature is built in at last! John. -- -- Over 4000 webcams from ski resorts around the world - www.snoweye.com -- Translate your technical documents and web pages- www.tradoc.fr
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 06:29, McDonald, Dandan.mcdon...@austinenergy.com wrote: On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 06:16 -0700, John Rudd wrote: Though ... it'd be nice if there was a direct RSS feed for the users list. Hopefully Nabble isn't my only choice for an RSS feed :-} (esp. since it posts 1 RSS message per email message, and only appears to do periodic RSS updates, not more live/continuous ones) gmane.org isn't terrible. I use it to track the devel list, but prefer to monitor the user list in e-mail. I tried out gossamer right after I sent that, and it seems to be better as well. Now I just have to figure out how to reply via gossamer (I'll give gmane a look as well). Thanks :-)
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 06:29, McDonald, Dandan.mcdon...@austinenergy.com wrote: On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 06:16 -0700, John Rudd wrote: Though ... it'd be nice if there was a direct RSS feed for the users list. Hopefully Nabble isn't my only choice for an RSS feed :-} (esp. since it posts 1 RSS message per email message, and only appears to do periodic RSS updates, not more live/continuous ones) gmane.org isn't terrible. I use it to track the devel list, but prefer to monitor the user list in e-mail. Hm. I don't see RSS via gmane.org ... am I missing something?
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 06:16:38 -0700 John Rudd jr...@ucsc.edu wrote: Personally, when I'm so lightly involved in a message stream that I don't want to be subscribed to the entire list, I prefer to use the RSS interface to a forum (or, an RSS feed into a forum). Especially if the RSS feed only posts 1 message per topic (the lead in message of the topic). Then I can skim the topics, pick which ones to dive in to or not. Then I can subscribe to updates of a given topic that I like (and read them in the forum, or maybe in my email if they send you 1 message per update, instead of 1 message per day), or not. If I don't, then I _never_ see that topic again. And either way, I don't store a flood of messages in my account (not before I read them, not after I read them). I don't see any advantage in doing it that way over using the gmane news server, and most lists will accept posts from gmane.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
One does already exist though it isn't just Spamassassin. http://www.freespamfilter.org/ I'm with snowweb here; mailing list support seems very outdated IMO. I could understand if you saved every email from the start of the mailing list as an archive but I would say many of us are new to the list and need support. Therefore we have to rely on search engines to deliver the content we need. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to have to click on each email in a thread to read its content. In a forum, you have a very simple structure and if followed insures that relevant information is presented in an intuitive manner. On a side note, if the forum were to have a (SOLUTION) for each topic, that would be a huge bonus. Curtis LaMasters http://www.curtis-lamasters.com http://www.builtnetworks.com
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
OK! Thanks guys for all your inputs, regardless off which side of the discussion you're leaning towards. I read and considered all your pro's and con's carefully. I'm not trying to pry anyone away from your list (and I'm sure I won't). I'm just trying to reach out to those who don't want to be a part of an email list. My personal calculation mixed with intuition, indicate to me that this is huge number of spamassassin users. I think my biggest problem will be to provide the hardware resources to maintain the performance of a dedicated forum for a piece of software as popular as Spamassassin. I have now registered http://www.spamassassin-forum.com spamassassin-forum.com and I will make sure that the first sticky thread on the forum to be, contains a link to your list, so that our users are free to choose. I'm not doing this to compete but to complement. I hope you understand. Thank you all for your input. You're all class guys here :) Peter Snow -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Any-one-interested-in-using-a-proper-forum--tp24697144p24698988.html Sent from the SpamAssassin - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On 28.07.09 09:19, Curtis LaMasters wrote: One does already exist though it isn't just Spamassassin. http://www.freespamfilter.org/ I'm with snowweb here; mailing list support seems very outdated IMO. No, it is not. It's still perfectly usable. I could understand if you saved every email from the start of the mailing list as an archive but I would say many of us are new to the list and need support. Therefore we have to rely on search engines to deliver the content we need. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to have to click on each email in a thread to read its content. In a forum, you have a very simple structure and if followed insures that relevant information is presented in an intuitive manner. On a side note, if the forum were to have a (SOLUTION) for each topic, that would be a huge bonus. You can build forum-like access to mailing list archive if you want. IF you want, you can have everything on one page. The fact that nobody has built it does not mean that mailing lists are bad or forums are good. It only means that you or snowweb are incapable of getting how do things work. -- Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uh...@fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/ Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address. Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu. Emacs is a complicated operating system without good text editor.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
2009/7/28 Matus UHLAR - fantomas uh...@fantomas.sk: On 28.07.09 09:19, Curtis LaMasters wrote: One does already exist though it isn't just Spamassassin. http://www.freespamfilter.org/ I'm with snowweb here; mailing list support seems very outdated IMO. No, it is not. It's still perfectly usable. I could understand if you saved every email from the start of the mailing list as an archive but I would say many of us are new to the list and need support. Therefore we have to rely on search engines to deliver the content we need. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to have to click on each email in a thread to read its content. In a forum, you have a very simple structure and if followed insures that relevant information is presented in an intuitive manner. On a side note, if the forum were to have a (SOLUTION) for each topic, that would be a huge bonus. You can build forum-like access to mailing list archive if you want. IF you want, you can have everything on one page. The fact that nobody has built it does not mean that mailing lists are bad or forums are good. I use a google mail account. That threads messages well and I manage 'folders' on it via labels. I am subscribed to a lot of lists - this, exim-users and some debian ones many of which are quite busy. I am happy to use google's storage facilities for most of this traffic so I don't have to pay the bandwidth elsewhere. Other than this list, I'd probably prefer a wiki with lots of how-tos and the FAQ(s) rather than a forum. Regards L.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 07:31 -0700, snowweb wrote: spamassassin-forum One way to get that included in web filter block lists. Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. Then I noted; Administrative Contact: Snow, Peter pe...@snowweb.co.uk 20 Neville Gardens Emsworth, Hampshire PO10 7XZ United Kingdom (632) 724-1138 Fax -- That's a non UK phone number, buy possible that it is VoIP based, but there seems to be a discrepancy; Domain name: snowweb.co.uk Registrant: Mr Peter R Snow Registrant type: Unknown Registrant's address: 12-20 Gardens of Maia Alta, Dalig, Antipolo City Rizal 1870 Philippines Just which one of these is correct ? I like to know who is who, I'm nosey.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, snowweb wrote: Jari Fredriksson wrote: What kind of a forum do you see? I use this as an email list, straight from my email application. I don't use Nabble or Google Groups (whatever those might be..). Quite convenient. Just subscribe and enjoy. I wouldn't have interrupted you nice community with this issue, but unfortunately, when I search for spamassassin support forums online, this is about the best I can come up with (which I don't think is serving the majority of the SpamAssassin users... the numbers just don't add up). FWIW, I have been running SA for at least 5 years, through multiple versions, countless rules, updates and never, (key word here) never have I not found a solution to a problem either asking it here on this list or searching the archives. If it were not for open source, the support of the other users and the occasional developer, there is not way I would be able to afford the solutino that I have in place right now. The system really does work for millions of people using countless pieces of open source software. But only if one chooses to learn how to use it... Just my .02. Randomly generated quote: And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. -Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche, philosopher (1844-1900)
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 07:09, RWrwmailli...@googlemail.com wrote: On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 06:16:38 -0700 John Rudd jr...@ucsc.edu wrote: Personally, when I'm so lightly involved in a message stream that I don't want to be subscribed to the entire list, I prefer to use the RSS interface to a forum (or, an RSS feed into a forum). Especially if the RSS feed only posts 1 message per topic (the lead in message of the topic). Then I can skim the topics, pick which ones to dive in to or not. Then I can subscribe to updates of a given topic that I like (and read them in the forum, or maybe in my email if they send you 1 message per update, instead of 1 message per day), or not. If I don't, then I _never_ see that topic again. And either way, I don't store a flood of messages in my account (not before I read them, not after I read them). I don't see any advantage in doing it that way over using the gmane news server, and most lists will accept posts from gmane. If I still used Thunderbird, sure. I could just click over to News from Mail, and read it that way. But that's not how I read my email these days, nor how I get my news (generalized to mean conventional news, nntp, forums, blogs, etc.). I get almost all of my news these days via RSS. And I don't use a desktop client for that, I use Google Reader. Besides, usenet/nntp is getting to be a vanishing backwater of the net these days ... and the only _decent_ nntp reader was nn, which never really made its way to the GUI era, much less the web era. In fact, if you know much about nn, you can probably see that reflected in what I said I prefer in RSS feeds. I only want to see the lead in, and then I have to actively choose to participate in anything more for that stream -- if I pass it by with disinterest, then I never see it again. Just like nn.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On 28.07.09 09:19, Curtis LaMasters wrote: I could understand if you saved every email from the start of the mailing list as an archive but I would say many of us are new to the list and need support. Therefore we have to rely on search engines to deliver the content we need. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to have to click on each email in a thread to read its content. In a forum, you have a very simple structure and if followed insures that relevant information is presented in an intuitive manner. On a side note, if the forum were to have a (SOLUTION) for each topic, that would be a huge bonus. 2009/7/28 Matus UHLAR - fantomas uh...@fantomas.sk: You can build forum-like access to mailing list archive if you want. IF you want, you can have everything on one page. The fact that nobody has built it does not mean that mailing lists are bad or forums are good. On 28.07.09 16:01, Lesley Binks wrote: I use a google mail account. That threads messages well and I manage 'folders' on it via labels. I am subscribed to a lot of lists - this, exim-users and some debian ones many of which are quite busy. I am happy to use google's storage facilities for most of this traffic so I don't have to pay the bandwidth elsewhere. Other than this list, I'd probably prefer a wiki with lots of how-tos and the FAQ(s) rather than a forum. and this is how SA works. We have mailing list for discussing problems and helping each other with them. Then there's wiki where we (can) put the results... -- Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uh...@fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/ Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address. Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu. Two words: Windows survives. - Craig Mundie, Microsoft senior strategist So does syphillis. Good thing we have penicillin. - Matthew Alton
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
2009/7/28 rich...@buzzhost.co.uk rich...@buzzhost.co.uk: On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 07:31 -0700, snowweb wrote: spamassassin-forum One way to get that included in web filter block lists. Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. Then I noted; Administrative Contact: Snow, Peter pe...@snowweb.co.uk 20 Neville Gardens Emsworth, Hampshire PO10 7XZ United Kingdom (632) 724-1138 Fax -- That's a non UK phone number, buy possible that it is VoIP based, but there seems to be a discrepancy; Domain name: snowweb.co.uk Registrant: Mr Peter R Snow Registrant type: Unknown Registrant's address: 12-20 Gardens of Maia Alta, Dalig, Antipolo City Rizal 1870 Philippines Just which one of these is correct ? I like to know who is who, I'm nosey. the website for snowweb.co.uk uses scripts from snowweb.info which is also Philippines based at the same address in Antipolo City, Rizal. 63 is the International Dialing code for the Phillipines. Regards L.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
I have now registered http://www.spamassassin-forum.com spamassassin-forum.com and I will make sure that the first sticky thread on the forum to be, contains a link to your list, so that our users are free to choose. I'm not doing this to compete but to complement. I hope you understand. Please make sure that you have a secure login procedure for the forum and that its impossible for anybody to post without being logged in. The following is probably the minimum necessary: - enforce the use of non-trivial passwords. - require e-mail address confirmation before accepting a new user. - lock an account after 'n' successive login failures and require an e-mail dialogue to unlock it. 'n' should probably be around 3. My reason for saying that is because spammers *will* try to use it as a spam gateway. The above suggestions will make it harder for spammers to sign up for the forum or to break into an existing login. SourceForge mailing lists and the WINE mailing list are both regularly used as spam conduits: neither are exactly hard to get signed up to. You may wish to prevent users from editing an existing forum post - the WINE list has done this to preserve some degree of context in messages sent to the associated mailing list. Finally a personal point: PLEASE don't implement smilies/emoticons as part of the forum. The WINE mailing list often contains messages from the linked forum that end like this: . but it still doesn't work [crying/very sad]. I find the bit in square brackets, which is an e-mail representation of an emoticon, extremely irritating. IMO it adds nothing to what should be a technical discussion. Martin
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
Let me see if I follow you correctly there . . . you are administrator of an email server, but you do not like to read and write email? Also, I am not a lawyer, but I think I read something somewhere a while ago that there is some intellectual property rights ownership associated with 'spamassassin' in some context somewhere, did you inquire about that before choosing your new domain name? I could be wrong, and I have no idea who the owner of such rights might be. snowweb pe...@snowweb.co.uk 07/28/09 10:31 AM OK! Thanks guys for all your inputs, regardless off which side of the discussion you're leaning towards. I read and considered all your pro's and con's carefully. I'm not trying to pry anyone away from your list (and I'm sure I won't). I'm just trying to reach out to those who don't want to be a part of an email list. My personal calculation mixed with intuition, indicate to me that this is huge number of spamassassin users. I think my biggest problem will be to provide the hardware resources to maintain the performance of a dedicated forum for a piece of software as popular as Spamassassin. I have now registered http://www.spamassassin-forum.com spamassassin-forum.com and I will make sure that the first sticky thread on the forum to be, contains a link to your list, so that our users are free to choose. I'm not doing this to compete but to complement. I hope you understand. Thank you all for your input. You're all class guys here :) Peter Snow
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Martin Gregorie wrote: Finally a personal point: PLEASE don't implement smilies/emoticons as part of the forum. The WINE mailing list often contains messages from the linked forum that end like this: I find the bit in square brackets, which is an e-mail representation of an emoticon, extremely irritating. IMO it adds nothing to what should be a technical discussion. ...not to mention what the emoticon parser does to code samples... -- John Hardin KA7OHZhttp://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/ jhar...@impsec.orgFALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhar...@impsec.org key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79 --- Politicians never accuse you of greed for wanting other people's money, only for wanting to keep your own money.-- Joseph Sobran --- 8 days until the 274th anniversary of John Peter Zenger's acquittal
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 09:01 -0700, John Hardin wrote: On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Martin Gregorie wrote: Finally a personal point: PLEASE don't implement smilies/emoticons as part of the forum. The WINE mailing list often contains messages from the linked forum that end like this: I find the bit in square brackets, which is an e-mail representation of an emoticon, extremely irritating. IMO it adds nothing to what should be a technical discussion. ...not to mention what the emoticon parser does to code samples... I certainly see what you mean about typed smileys, but I strongly suspect the WINE forum uses a row of clickable icons at the end of the message entry area that appends a [smiley] to the message. I should also have added that it may be a good idea to convert input into a pseudo message by making headers from the user's account details and subject line and to pass the result through SA before posting it to the forum and this mail list. If nothing else, it should reduce the moderator's workload. I wish unmoderated lists, such as SourceForge and WINE Users appear to be, would do this too. It would not appear all that difficult to do. Martin
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
rich...@buzzhost.co.uk wrote: On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 07:31 -0700, snowweb wrote: spamassassin-forum One way to get that included in web filter block lists. Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. Then I noted; Administrative Contact: Snow, Peter pe...@snowweb.co.uk 20 Neville Gardens Emsworth, Hampshire PO10 7XZ United Kingdom (632) 724-1138 Fax -- That's a non UK phone number, buy possible that it is VoIP based, but there seems to be a discrepancy; Domain name: snowweb.co.uk Registrant: Mr Peter R Snow Registrant type: Unknown Registrant's address: 12-20 Gardens of Maia Alta, Dalig, Antipolo City Rizal 1870 Philippines Just which one of these is correct ? I like to know who is who, I'm nosey. The answer is that they're both correct. I'm British but living in the Philippines. I split my time between the two addresses. -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Any-one-interested-in-using-a-proper-forum--tp24697144p24703650.html Sent from the SpamAssassin - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [sa] Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Dave Walker wrote: The only criticism i have with the SA list is that the Reply-To header isn't set, meaning most mail clients will reply directly to the person - rather than the list. Perhaps I should add some procmail foo, but ho hum. Oh! (smack forehead) Yeah, thanks! I'm always forgetting to fix the To line in my replies! Procmail/Formail will do nicely! = C
Re: [sa] Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Charles Gregory wrote: On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Dave Walker wrote: The only criticism i have with the SA list is that the Reply-To header isn't set, meaning most mail clients will reply directly to the person - rather than the list. Perhaps I should add some procmail foo, but ho hum. Oh! (smack forehead) Yeah, thanks! I'm always forgetting to fix the To line in my replies! Procmail/Formail will do nicely! Post your snippet when it's working, plz. Thanks. -- John Hardin KA7OHZhttp://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/ jhar...@impsec.orgFALaholic #11174 pgpk -a jhar...@impsec.org key: 0xB8732E79 -- 2D8C 34F4 6411 F507 136C AF76 D822 E6E6 B873 2E79 --- USMC Rules of Gunfighting #2: Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Your life is expensive. --- 8 days until the 274th anniversary of John Peter Zenger's acquittal
Re: [sa] Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, John Hardin wrote: Yeah, thanks! I'm always forgetting to fix the To line in my replies! Procmail/Formail will do nicely! Post your snippet when it's working, plz. Thanks. :0fw * ^(To|Cc):.*(use...@spamassassin|spamassassin.users) | /usr/bin/formail -IReply-To: users@spamassassin.apache.org Your path to formail may vary... :) This snippet could be further enhanced to replace the 'From' if you never really care who sent the message, and want to see 'SA List' in the 'From' column of your mail client index, for easy ID/sort: :0fw * ^(To|Cc):.*(use...@spamassassin|spamassassin.users) | /usr/bin/formail -IFrom: SA List users@spamassassin.apache.org Enjoy! - C
Setting a Reply-To header for this mailing list (was: [sa] Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?)
At 10:27 28-07-2009, Charles Gregory wrote: :0fw * ^(To|Cc):.*(use...@spamassassin|spamassassin.users) | /usr/bin/formail -IReply-To: users@spamassassin.apache.org Match on the List-Id: header instead of the To: or Cc:. Regards, -sm
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Jul 28, 2009, at 6:31 AM, Daniel O'Connor wrote: I have in the past looked for stuff that bridges between forums and mailing lists (or news groups) but it doesn't seem to exist :( Mailman has a news-gateway module. No idea how/if it works. -- If there's a bustle in your hedgerow don't be alarmed now.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Jul 28, 2009, at 7:25 AM, Dave Walker wrote:
John Rudd wrote:
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Any-one-interested-in-using-a-proper-forum--tp24697144p24697144.html
Sent from the SpamAssassin - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com
.
SNIP
Any help/suggestions on better RSS feeds for this list would be
appreciated :-)
Perhaps:
http://www.mailbucket.org
The only criticism i have with the SA list is that the Reply-To
header
isn't set, meaning most mail clients will reply directly to the
person -
rather than the list. Perhaps I should add some procmail foo, but
ho hum.
# Apache lists don't report names correctly, so manage all
# the 'user' lists here
:0
* LISTNAME ?? ^^users^^
{
:0
* ^List-id:.*users.spamassassin
{
LISTNAME=spamassassin-users
:0 fw
| formail -iReply-To: users@spamassassin.apache.org
}
:0
*^List-id:.*users.httpd
etc...
--
Love is like oxygen / You get too much / you get too high
/ Not enough and you're gonna die
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Jul 28, 2009, at 9:01 AM, Lesley Binks wrote: I use a google mail account. That threads messages well Actually, gmail threads messages very poorly. Threading is a lot more than 'put all the messages with one topic into a time-ordered list'. That said, some thread support is much better than none, but if you think gmail threads well then... well, you haven't seen threading. -- You and me Sunday driving Not arriving
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Jul 28, 2009, at 9:20 AM, John Rudd wrote: Besides, usenet/nntp is getting to be a vanishing backwater of the net these days ... and the only _decent_ nntp reader was nn, which never really made its way to the GUI era, much less the web era. In fact, if you know much about nn, you can probably see that reflected in what I said I prefer in RSS feeds. I only want to see the lead in, and then I have to actively choose to participate in anything more for that stream -- if I pass it by with disinterest, then I never see it again. Just like nn. I have no complaints about slrn, but I don't use it with a GUI. And I don't see USENET as a vanishing backwater either. A small part of the Internet most don't know about? OK. But not vanishing. -- I've always had a flair for stage directions.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
LuKreme wrote: I have in the past looked for stuff that bridges between forums and mailing lists (or news groups) but it doesn't seem to exist :( Mailman has a news-gateway module. No idea how/if it works. I have used it myself. It works very well. Does exactly what it says on the tin, bidirectional mailing list-newsgroup gating. -- Mike Cardwell - IT Consultant and LAMP developer Cardwell IT Ltd. (UK Reg'd Company #06920226) http://cardwellit.com/
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
LuKreme wrote: On Jul 28, 2009, at 9:20 AM, John Rudd wrote: Besides, usenet/nntp is getting to be a vanishing backwater of the net these days ... and the only _decent_ nntp reader was nn, which never really made its way to the GUI era, much less the web era. In fact, if you know much about nn, you can probably see that reflected in what I said I prefer in RSS feeds. I only want to see the lead in, and then I have to actively choose to participate in anything more for that stream -- if I pass it by with disinterest, then I never see it again. Just like nn. I have no complaints about slrn, but I don't use it with a GUI. And I don't see USENET as a vanishing backwater either. A small part of the Internet most don't know about? OK. But not vanishing. And NNTP is still one of the coolest mechanisms for replicating information ever designed! Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 04:07, snowwebpe...@snowweb.co.uk wrote: I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this 1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA! Spamassassin has more than one or two users now and I personally think that it should have a support forum to match the class of software, which is now world class. I know it's free and all that, but even so, if this is the only form of support they provide, I'm thinking that I'll just start an alternative support forum, using standard, full featured forum software (like SMF). Is there any support for this (I already know there will be opposition from those who are 'resident' here. Sorry guys, I just want do something to help those who just dive in when they have an urgent problem. No hard feelings I hope.) Peter Snow I've subscribed to the email list. This is, for my purposes, and IMHO, much superior to any forum. Why? Because I am subscribed to somewhere over 20 technical and security lists (I stopped counting long ago - it could be more than 50 by now), and they all come to my inbox, and that's far superior to going to separate fora for every little thing I need to look at. Fora are far too limiting. Kurt
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
At 01:23 PM 7/28/2009, you wrote: I've subscribed to the email list. This is, for my purposes, and IMHO, much superior to any forum. Why? Because I am subscribed to somewhere over 20 technical and security lists (I stopped counting long ago - it could be more than 50 by now), and they all come to my inbox, and that's far superior to going to separate fora for every little thing I need to look at. Fora are far too limiting. Isn't the person who posted the suggestion that SA be put on a 'proper forum' posting from Nabble? Oh... the irony. I hate Nabble. they're like Google Groups.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
2009/7/28 LuKreme krem...@kreme.com: On Jul 28, 2009, at 9:01 AM, Lesley Binks wrote: I use a google mail account. That threads messages well Actually, gmail threads messages very poorly. Threading is a lot more than 'put all the messages with one topic into a time-ordered list'. That said, some thread support is much better than none, but if you think gmail threads well then... well, you haven't seen threading. I've used mutt and, not so recently, Thunderbird. L.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
I haven't read all the posts here yet, but I'll give you my experience with boards. I've been using message boards since the dial up days in the 80's, and it should be noted I don't speak for SA or its developers.. The advantage of a mailing list is that the messages are delivered to your inbox direct. This is great because it means you won't forget to visit a website. A mailing list has a higher bar for entry, usually unintentionally. Bottomfeeders just find them too hard and don't bother subscribing at all. Forums attract bottomfeeders -- the lowest common denominator of netizens. They attract people who see number of posts as a competition, and who post endlessly incessant crap just to increase their post count. You'll see endless me too and lol posts. You'll see giant, colourful, often flashing banners in sigs, and sometimes animated avatars if the forum software allows it. The signal to noise ratio changes in favour of the noise. On a mailing list, it favours the signal. People think harder before posting to a mailing list. They don't waste time with the me toos and the lols. I like forums, and I use many and run my own, but I think in the case of technical support, a forum is less useful and less productive than a mailing list. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
snowweb a écrit :
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this
1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this
list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA!
Spamassassin has more than one or two users now and I personally think that
it should have a support forum to match the class of software, which is now
world class.
I know it's free and all that, but even so, if this is the only form of
support they provide, I'm thinking that I'll just start an alternative
support forum, using standard, full featured forum software (like SMF).
If you can code a forum that gives people the ability to
- set their preferences the way they now do on their mailers,
- reply as easily as they can now do on their mailers,
then I would applaud. I am even ready to send you money.
Is there any support for this (I already know there will be opposition from
those who are 'resident' here. Sorry guys, I just want do something to help
those who just dive in when they have an urgent problem. No hard feelings I
hope.)
I am not going to debate ML vs news vs forum vs wiki vs blog
vs drupal vs wordpress vs joomal vs php vs ajax vs java vs
vs iphone vs blackberry vs nokia ... etc
Just going to tell you something: people who know SA are on this list.
you can create whatever ${something} elsewhere, but if you can't get
these guys there, you'll only lose your time.
for what matters, many of us prefer the old news. but life is life.
lala la la la...
Re: [OT] Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
Mike Cardwell a écrit : Henrik K wrote: Good for you. I've signed up for many mailing lists AND forums. There is nothing inherently better or worse in either of them, No that's wrong, they're quite different and both have advantages and disadvantages. so, it's YES, not NO. Henrik said nothing [snip] better or worse, which is what you said. [snip] If someone set up a proper SA forum, I'd be happy to stop by. But it might be hard to get all the developers and other active participants join there, which is what makes all the difference. Set up the forum. It might work. I'm not anti-forum, I just think mailing lists are generally better. I too prefer mailing lists. but I think it's because I am used to. and firefox eats too much memory... (don't tell me about flash).
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 7:07 AM, snowwebpe...@snowweb.co.uk wrote: I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this 1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA! Spamassassin has more than one or two users now and I personally think that it should have a support forum to match the class of software, which is now world class. I know it's free and all that, but even so, if this is the only form of support they provide, I'm thinking that I'll just start an alternative support forum, using standard, full featured forum software (like SMF). Is there any support for this (I already know there will be opposition from those who are 'resident' here. Sorry guys, I just want do something to help those who just dive in when they have an urgent problem. No hard feelings I hope.) Peter Snow From your posts to the list (both this thread and others recently), it seems you would like a place where you can easily just ask questions any time things on your system don't work. This fits in with what a typical forum provides, but this is *not* what the spamassassin user list has been in the past, and I for one hope it never becomes such a thing. When you post to this mailing list, you are putting your thoughts or question in front of many experts (at least for a few seconds :). This means you have a great responsibility to not waste everyone's time. It means you are expected to spend your own time learning before you take time from others. For the most part, posters understand this (or are informed/reminded when needed) and the list works well to serve it's intended purpose. When you post to this list, you will get a response, and it will generally be excellent information. However, using this list for support should be a last resort. It should not be convenient, and we should not seek to gain exposure. The list can be found where you would expect to find it, that is enough. Compare this to a forum, where it is typical to post questions rather than do any self study. There is no barrier to entry, the forum seeks to generate as many posts as possible so it can sell banner ads. Now you have lots of the same questions (most of which can be answered with the slightest bit of learning), these questions often either go unanswered or are incorrectly/incompletely answered, there is no peer review (if there are any experts on the forum, they certainly don't always see each other's work as they do on a mailing list). Top it all off with a helping of forum spam and you have something that is *less* useful to all but the most beginner users (and even that might be questionable). Sure, a forum for SA would get more questions than the list does. It would not get better answers. Funny that a request for forums would come from nabble... If nabble users are any indication of what a forum would be like, I think it's pretty obvious that posting quality would be crap. Just my $0.02. -Aaron -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Any-one-interested-in-using-a-proper-forum--tp24697144p24697144.html Sent from the SpamAssassin - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
At 03:17 PM 7/28/2009, you wrote: Funny that a request for forums would come from nabble... If nabble users are any indication of what a forum would be like, I think it's pretty obvious that posting quality would be crap. Agreed 100%. I've told Nabble they have no permission to archve my posts. I mean how often do we see a post of My spamassassin isn't working. Why? or 3-4 identical posts, and then Oh, nabble gave me an error, so I posted again. And again. And again. If enough people told Nabble not to archive their posts, Nabble would be out of business.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, July 28, 2009 13:07, snowweb wrote: I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this 1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA! if email/sa gives you so much problems what do you then expect from smf ? nothing stopping you from starting a smf forum, just give the link here :) -- xpoint
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Tue, July 28, 2009 13:54, RW wrote: What exactly do you want that a mailing list can't provide? Avatars, pretty colours, banner adverts? Most forum software doesn't even support decent threading. smf does And if you think email is obsolete, what are you doing here in the first place? tell me how the egg got created by the unborn chicken ? :))) -- xpoint
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 09:15:05AM +1200, Spiro Harvey wrote: You'll see giant, colourful, often flashing banners in sigs, and sometimes animated avatars if the forum software allows it. It's not like the administrator has anything to do with it. A more technical forum most likely would have all this crap stripped. The signal to noise ratio changes in favour of the noise. On a mailing list, it favours the signal. People think harder before posting to a mailing list. They don't waste time with the me toos and the lols. None of the forums I visit have that much difference in signal. Honestly, MLs too are filled with all sorts of crap. Even if might be disguised more as something else than blatant metoolol, doesn't mean that the information is useful.
Re: Any one interested in using a proper forum?
Am 2009-07-28 04:07:23, schrieb snowweb: I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting a bit hacked of with this 1980's style forum. I'm trying to get to the bottom of an SA issue and this list/forum thing is giving me a bigger headache than SA! It is NOT a forum but a Mailinglist which is for technical discussions while forums are for whimps and having plenty of bandwidth loading 50 kB HTML pages for a message of 5 kByte including its headers. It is NOT possibel to read FORUMS on my Nokia 6120 classic while my IMAP client is fast and reliabel. Also FORUMS produce traffic I am not willing to pay. I know it's free and all that, but even so, if this is the only form of support they provide, I'm thinking that I'll just start an alternative support forum, using standard, full featured forum software (like SMF). ...the last crap! Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # http://www.tamay-dogan.net/ Michelle Konzack http://www.can4linux.org/ c/o Vertriebsp. KabelBW http://www.flexray4linux.org/ Blumenstrasse 2 Jabber linux4miche...@jabber.ccc.de 77694 Kehl/Germany IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) Tel. DE: +49 177 9351947 ICQ #328449886Tel. FR: +33 6 61925193 signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
