Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Don86326]

Hi Jones,


Some googlin' found Cameron Jones, a fungal expert now in private 
industry...


https://www.drcameronjones.com/pages/academicpublications

Here's a couple of his papers listed on with /plasmon resonance/:

   JONES, C.L. (2004). Exploiting the Surface Plasmon Resonance Effect
   Using Recordable Compact Discs for Gram-Stain Cell Classification.
   ASM 2004 Annual Scientific Meeting. 26 September-1 October, Sydney,
   Australia. Australian Society for Microbiology. (PP31 – Public
   Health: PP31.3)

   JONES, C.L. (2004). Compact Disc Petri Plates and Chaotic
   Encryption. (Computers). ASM 2004 Annual Scientific Meeting. 26
   September-1 October, Sydney, Australia. Australian Society for
   Microbiology. (P22 – Computers: P22.02)

This paper sounds like plasmon resonance is read with the CD ROM laser 
diode, and the plasmon activity is on patterns of dots put directly on 
the CD ROM surface with a disc label printer:


   JONES, C.L. (2004). Keynote Address: Nanotechnology and Molecular
   Scale Music Composition. National Science Week – "Electronic Music
   and Science: A Beautiful Set of Numbers", Experimedia, State Library
   of Victoria. August 19th, 2004. Part I: Remix of Spoken Word Poetry
   (Gordon Taylor) Using The Sierpinski Gasket; Part II: Remix of
   Casionova Using The Casio Disc Title Printer CW-50 Directly Onto The
   CD-R Data Surface; Part III: Remix of Stelarc, Rainer Linz & Digital
   Primate – Prosthetic Head. audio examples

I hope to run across work on plasmon resonance in nano-fibers, to 
develop a few fibers grown on a glass slide to act as an analog of 
fluorescence, but in the magnetic domain.  I want a plasmon plane to act 
as a magnetic pattern enticer in a magnetic bucking design.  The 
enticer-plane nano-fibers needs to establish an inductive coupling with 
the flux patterns of an oscillator.  This is only a developing design so 
far.


I think I've read/seen pictures of platinum nano-fibers grown from 
solution on a surface.  Any info is appreciated.



Cheers,

Don



On 10/21/2020 3:44 PM, Jones Beene wrote:

Don,

Very interesting. Was the work published?

Sounds like a long lost missed opportunity for something...


> Here's FYI of something similar, Jones, et al.

When I was young and dumber I knew of a Dr. Cameron Jones who no 
longer works at Swinburne Uni. where he diluted colloidal gold to the 
proper density to get the correct spacing that entertained a plasmon 
resonance when painted on a surface.


He painted CD ROMs with this gold-dot 'plasmonic surface' and the CD 
diode read laser plasmon information as visual image alterations. The 
Doctor suggested the skew indicated the plasmon resonance had a 
knowledge of the architecture of the image encoded in the CD 
dot-track.  But there /were /echos of other dot-tracks evident in the 
images I saw posted. The technique does make and detect plasmon resonance.


In the 90-s.  Then he retired from academics to run the Blue Velvet 
night club.



-don

On 10/21/2020 12:44 PM, JonesBeene wrote:

The possibility of an energy anomaly based on gold plasmons from 
nanoparticles being  irradiated by lasers –using  beat frequency or 
not - leads to an idea for a simple low cost experiment.


Gold nanoparticle colloids are available at remarkably low prices due 
to growing use as cure-all dietary supplements.


Obviously you don’t get much gold for $20 bucks on Amazon but your 
don’t need much.



  A drop of Pure Nano Colloidal Gold in water - 2oz Bottle 240ppm .999
  Gold nanoparticles (on Amazon) would be interesting when irradiated
  by one or more small lasers.


  Add a little heavy water to the colloid and who knows what will turn
  up? This could happen on a microscope slide for instance – if you
  want a close up view.

Bob Higgins wrote:

> Yes, the beats in the Hagelstein, Letts, and Cravens experiment are 
presumably formed by this process.  A thin gold film was deposited on 
the cathode surface and the effect was not observed without the thin 
gold film.


Has it been ruled out that the energy anomaly is not partly or solely 
due to plasmon formation alone ?


> It is believed that the thin gold went down as tiny islands that were 
responsible for the nonlinearity needed to form the beats.


If the "islands" were in the size range of 2-12 nm,  then the Casimir 
effect could come into play. The so-called "Wood's Anomalies" have 
been known for a century in various forms - and this plasmon anomaly 
of Hagelstein et al could be related to that.


https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Chapter-2-Theory-of-Wood-%E2%80%99-s-Anomalies-Maystre/406d2c8f212c3286d85774815de62a2c75b748b8

IOW there is a possibility of actual energy gain from plasmon 
radiation alone which may or may not also have a nuclear effect as a 
secondary reaction when deuterium is present.



--
Stay hydrated!

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Bob Higgins]

Peter Hagelstein hypothesized that SPPs could form on the surface and that
they may be complicit in the conversion of the 2 laser signals into the
beat frequency.  The SPPs could potentially provide the nonlinearity
required for a beat to form.  In past experiments, the amount of gold
needed for the effect to occur has not been carefully quantified nor has
its surface morphology.  Etched Pd cathodes are not like a sheet of glass
or polished silicon, so the thin gold deposit is bound to be very
complicated.

The possible use of gold nanoparticles has been discussed, but has not been
tried that I know of.  Any metal that is put in an electrolysis cell is
going to deposit to some extent on the cathode by ordinary electroplating.
Electroplating professionals go to a lot of trouble to put a filter bag
around the anode to prevent small "fines" from plating from the anode to
the cathode.  Regarding adding particles, why not begin with adding the
size you want?  Note that even for the red laser SPP resonance, the
particles needed may be quite big compared to the nanoscale.

I doubt that the "Woods anomalies" are an electromagnetic effect in the way
usually thought.  Even interferometry is completely misunderstood.  I
recommend reading the spot-on paper, "Interference and wave-particle
duality of single photons", by Shan-Liang Liu, arXiv [2017].  In it you
will find that what we were taught in university physics about interference
was complete malarkey.

Is there a way to get excess heat from plasmons alone?  I cannot weigh in
on that.

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 9:27 AM Jones Beene  wrote:

> Bob Higgins wrote:
>
> > Yes, the beats in the Hagelstein, Letts, and Cravens experiment are
> presumably formed by this process.  A thin gold film was deposited on the
> cathode surface and the effect was not observed without the thin gold film.
>
> Has it been ruled out that the energy anomaly is not partly or solely due
> to plasmon formation alone ?
>
> > It is believed that the thin gold went down as tiny islands that were
> responsible for the nonlinearity needed to form the beats.
>
> If the "islands" were in the size range of 2-12 nm,  then the Casimir
> effect could come into play. The so-called "Wood's Anomalies" have been
> known for a century in various forms - and this plasmon anomaly of
> Hagelstein et al could be related to that.
>
>
> https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Chapter-2-Theory-of-Wood-%E2%80%99-s-Anomalies-Maystre/406d2c8f212c3286d85774815de62a2c75b748b8
>
> IOW there is a possibility of actual energy gain from plasmon radiation
> alone which may or may not also have a nuclear effect as a secondary
> reaction when deuterium is present.
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Jones Beene]

Don,
Very interesting. Was the work published? 

Sounds like a long lost missed opportunity for something...



> Here's FYI of something similar, Jones, et al.
 
 
When I was young and dumber I knew of a Dr. Cameron Jones who no longer works 
at Swinburne Uni. where he diluted colloidal gold to the proper density to get 
the correct spacing that entertained a plasmon resonance when painted on a 
surface.
 
He painted CD ROMs with this gold-dot 'plasmonic surface' and the CD diode read 
laser plasmon information as visual image alterations. The Doctor suggested the 
skew indicated the plasmon resonance had a knowledge of the architecture of the 
image encoded in the CD dot-track.  But there were echos of other dot-tracks 
evident in the images I saw posted.   The technique does make and detect 
plasmon resonance.
 
 
In the 90-s.  Then he retired from academics to run the Blue Velvet night club.
 

 
 
-don
 
 On 10/21/2020 12:44 PM, JonesBeene wrote:
  
The possibility of an energy anomaly based on gold plasmons from nanoparticles 
being  irradiated by lasers –using  beat frequency or not - leads to an idea 
for a simple low cost experiment.
 
 
 
Gold nanoparticle colloids are available at remarkably low prices due to 
growing use as cure-all dietary supplements. 
 
 
 
Obviously you don’t get much gold for $20 bucks on Amazon but your don’t need 
much.
  
A drop of Pure Nano Colloidal Gold in water - 2oz Bottle 240ppm .999 Gold 
nanoparticles (on Amazon) would be interesting when irradiated by one or more 
small lasers. 
 
Add a little heavy water to the colloid and who knows what will turn up? This 
could happen on a microscope slide for instance – if you want a close up view.
  
 
  
 
  
 

Bob Higgins wrote: 

 
   
> Yes, the beats in the Hagelstein, Letts, and Cravens experiment are 
> presumably formed by this process.  A thin gold film was deposited on the 
> cathode surface and the effect was not observed without the thin gold film. 
   
 
   
Has it been ruled out that the energy anomaly is not partly or solely due to 
plasmon formation alone ?
   
 
   
> It is believed that the thin gold went down as tiny islands that were 
> responsible for the nonlinearity needed to form the beats.
   
 
   
If the "islands" were in the size range of 2-12 nm,  then the Casimir effect 
could come into play. The so-called "Wood's Anomalies" have been known for a 
century in various forms - and this plasmon anomaly of Hagelstein et al could 
be related to that.
   
 
   
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Chapter-2-Theory-of-Wood-%E2%80%99-s-Anomalies-Maystre/406d2c8f212c3286d85774815de62a2c75b748b8
   
 
   
IOW there is a possibility of actual energy gain from plasmon radiation alone 
which may or may not also have a nuclear effect as a secondary reaction when 
deuterium is present.
   
 
   

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Don86326]

Hi Jones,


Here's FYI of something similar, Jones, et al.

When I was young and dumber I knew of a Dr. Cameron Jones who no longer 
works at Swinburne Uni. where he diluted colloidal gold to the proper 
density to get the correct spacing that entertained a plasmon resonance 
when painted on a surface.


He painted CD ROMs with this gold-dot 'plasmonic surface' and the CD 
diode read laser plasmon information as visual image alterations. The 
Doctor suggested the skew indicated the plasmon resonance had a 
knowledge of the architecture of the image encoded in the CD dot-track.  
But there /were /echos of other dot-tracks evident in the images I saw 
posted.   The technique does make and detect plasmon resonance.


In the 90-s.  Then he retired from academics to run the Blue Velvet 
night club.



-don

On 10/21/2020 12:44 PM, JonesBeene wrote:

The possibility of an energy anomaly based on gold plasmons from 
nanoparticles being  irradiated by lasers –using  beat frequency or not 
- leads to an idea for a simple low cost experiment.


Gold nanoparticle colloids are available at remarkably low prices due to 
growing use as cure-all dietary supplements.


Obviously you don’t get much gold for $20 bucks on Amazon but your don’t 
need much.



 A drop of Pure Nano Colloidal Gold in water - 2oz Bottle 240ppm .999
 Gold nanoparticles (on Amazon) would be interesting when irradiated by
 one or more small lasers.


 Add a little heavy water to the colloid and who knows what will turn
 up? This could happen on a microscope slide for instance – if you want
 a close up view.

Bob Higgins wrote:

 Yes, the beats in the Hagelstein, Letts, and Cravens experiment are 
presumably formed by this process.  A thin gold film was deposited on 
the cathode surface and the effect was not observed without the thin 
gold film.


Has it been ruled out that the energy anomaly is not partly or solely 
due to plasmon formation alone ?


 It is believed that the thin gold went down as tiny islands that were 

responsible for the nonlinearity needed to form the beats.

If the "islands" were in the size range of 2-12 nm,  then the Casimir 
effect could come into play. The so-called "Wood's Anomalies" have been 
known for a century in various forms - and this plasmon anomaly of 
Hagelstein et al could be related to that.


https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Chapter-2-Theory-of-Wood-%E2%80%99-s-Anomalies-Maystre/406d2c8f212c3286d85774815de62a2c75b748b8

IOW there is a possibility of actual energy gain from plasmon radiation 
alone which may or may not also have a nuclear effect as a secondary 
reaction when deuterium is present.

RE: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[JonesBeene]

The possibility of an energy anomaly based on gold plasmons from nanoparticles 
being  irradiated by lasers –using  beat frequency or not - leads to an idea 
for a simple low cost experiment.

Gold nanoparticle colloids are available at remarkably low prices due to 
growing use as cure-all dietary supplements. 

Obviously you don’t get much gold for $20 bucks on Amazon but your don’t need 
much.
A drop of Pure Nano Colloidal Gold in water - 2oz Bottle 240ppm .999 Gold 
nanoparticles (on Amazon) would be interesting when irradiated by one or more 
small lasers. 
Add a little heavy water to the colloid and who knows what will turn up? This 
could happen on a microscope slide for instance – if you want a close up view.



Bob Higgins wrote: 

> Yes, the beats in the Hagelstein, Letts, and Cravens experiment are 
> presumably formed by this process.  A thin gold film was deposited on the 
> cathode surface and the effect was not observed without the thin gold film. 

Has it been ruled out that the energy anomaly is not partly or solely due to 
plasmon formation alone ?

> It is believed that the thin gold went down as tiny islands that were 
> responsible for the nonlinearity needed to form the beats.

If the "islands" were in the size range of 2-12 nm,  then the Casimir effect 
could come into play. The so-called "Wood's Anomalies" have been known for a 
century in various forms - and this plasmon anomaly of Hagelstein et al could 
be related to that.

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Chapter-2-Theory-of-Wood-%E2%80%99-s-Anomalies-Maystre/406d2c8f212c3286d85774815de62a2c75b748b8

IOW there is a possibility of actual energy gain from plasmon radiation alone 
which may or may not also have a nuclear effect as a secondary reaction when 
deuterium is present.

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Jones Beene]

 Bob Higgins wrote: 
 > Yes, the beats in the Hagelstein, Letts, and Cravens experiment are 
 > presumably formed by this process.  A thin gold film was deposited on the 
 > cathode surface and the effect was not observed without the thin gold film. 
 
Has it been ruled out that the energy anomaly is not partly or solely due to 
plasmon formation alone ?
> It is believed that the thin gold went down as tiny islands that were 
> responsible for the nonlinearity needed to form the beats.
If the "islands" were in the size range of 2-12 nm,  then the Casimir effect 
could come into play. The so-called "Wood's Anomalies" have been known for a 
century in various forms - and this plasmon anomaly of Hagelstein et al could 
be related to that.

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Chapter-2-Theory-of-Wood-%E2%80%99-s-Anomalies-Maystre/406d2c8f212c3286d85774815de62a2c75b748b8
IOW there is a possibility of actual energy gain from plasmon radiation alone 
which may or may not also have a nuclear effect as a secondary reaction when 
deuterium is present.


  

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[H LV]

Perhaps the goal should be to generate beats in the electrode rather than
apply beats to the electrode. If so then the original single laser
experiments of Letts and Craven may have succeeded in doing that, but not
very reliably.

This paper says THz sound waves are now possible.
https://www.epj-conferences.org/articles/epjconf/pdf/2018/30/epjconf_tera2018_5.pdf


Harry

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:59 PM Bob Higgins 
wrote:

> Yes, the beats in the Hagelstein, Letts, and Cravens experiment are
> presumably formed by this process.  A thin gold film was deposited on the
> cathode surface and the effect was not observed without the thin gold
> film.  It is believed that the thin gold went down as tiny islands that
> were responsible for the nonlinearity needed to form the beats.
>
> This gold film was right on the surface, and thus the THz beat would have
> been delivered right at the surface of the Pd cathode.  Note that this THz
> beat frequency will not propagate through even 1 micron of electrolyte, so
> the THz signal must be generated right at the surface of the Pd.
>
> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 9:39 AM H LV  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Were the laser beats in the Hagelstein, Letts & Cravens experiment of
>> this type?
>>
>> The way the beats are generated could play role in the generation of
>> anomalous heat.
>> Harry
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 2:51 PM Bob Higgins 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> No, not exactly.  Addition is a linear process and produces no
>>> frequencies in the output of the summation which are not present in the
>>> input.  A nonlinear process is commonly applied to the summation to create
>>> beats.  For example putting a summation of sine wave voltages onto a diode
>>> would produce a nonlinear current that would contain the beats.
>>>
>>> Sampling, like multiplication, is also a nonlinear process that can
>>> produce beats.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:19 PM H LV  wrote:
>>>
 So the addition of frequencies requires that the input signal already
 contains a non-linear component.
 and for entirely linear input the frequencies would not be additive.
 Harry

 On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:08 PM Bob Higgins 
 wrote:

> To get frequencies in the output that were not in the input requires a
> nonlinearity.  If you model the nonlinearity using a series such as Y = a 
> +
> bX + cX^2 + dX^3...
> then all of the terms with X^2 and greater are the nonlinear terms.
> Usually the coefficient of the squared term, c, is the largest of the
> nonlinear terms.  When you have an input that is the sum of two
> frequencies, you get a component in Y that is c[sin(w1t) + sin(w2t)]^2  .
> It is the square of the sum of sines that produces the sum and difference
> frequencies.
>
> In the case of the Moire masks, you end up with a multiplication
> taking place, not a sum.  The product of sines will also produce a sum and
> difference.  Multiplication of inputs is a nonlinear operation.
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 9:44 AM H LV  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> When two waves of different frequencies combine the result is a third
>> wave with a beat frequency corresponding to the difference between the 
>> two
>> original frequencies. A wave model  can show how this happens, but I 
>> don't
>> see how it can bring about the addition of frequencies. Can someone model
>> this additive process for me?
>>
>> Harry
>>
>>>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Bob Higgins]

Yes, the beats in the Hagelstein, Letts, and Cravens experiment are
presumably formed by this process.  A thin gold film was deposited on the
cathode surface and the effect was not observed without the thin gold
film.  It is believed that the thin gold went down as tiny islands that
were responsible for the nonlinearity needed to form the beats.

This gold film was right on the surface, and thus the THz beat would have
been delivered right at the surface of the Pd cathode.  Note that this THz
beat frequency will not propagate through even 1 micron of electrolyte, so
the THz signal must be generated right at the surface of the Pd.

On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 9:39 AM H LV  wrote:

>
>
> Were the laser beats in the Hagelstein, Letts & Cravens experiment of
> this type?
>
> The way the beats are generated could play role in the generation of
> anomalous heat.
> Harry
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 2:51 PM Bob Higgins 
> wrote:
>
>> No, not exactly.  Addition is a linear process and produces no
>> frequencies in the output of the summation which are not present in the
>> input.  A nonlinear process is commonly applied to the summation to create
>> beats.  For example putting a summation of sine wave voltages onto a diode
>> would produce a nonlinear current that would contain the beats.
>>
>> Sampling, like multiplication, is also a nonlinear process that can
>> produce beats.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:19 PM H LV  wrote:
>>
>>> So the addition of frequencies requires that the input signal already
>>> contains a non-linear component.
>>> and for entirely linear input the frequencies would not be additive.
>>> Harry
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:08 PM Bob Higgins 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 To get frequencies in the output that were not in the input requires a
 nonlinearity.  If you model the nonlinearity using a series such as Y = a +
 bX + cX^2 + dX^3...
 then all of the terms with X^2 and greater are the nonlinear terms.
 Usually the coefficient of the squared term, c, is the largest of the
 nonlinear terms.  When you have an input that is the sum of two
 frequencies, you get a component in Y that is c[sin(w1t) + sin(w2t)]^2  .
 It is the square of the sum of sines that produces the sum and difference
 frequencies.

 In the case of the Moire masks, you end up with a multiplication taking
 place, not a sum.  The product of sines will also produce a sum and
 difference.  Multiplication of inputs is a nonlinear operation.

 On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 9:44 AM H LV  wrote:

> Hi,
> When two waves of different frequencies combine the result is a third
> wave with a beat frequency corresponding to the difference between the two
> original frequencies. A wave model  can show how this happens, but I don't
> see how it can bring about the addition of frequencies. Can someone model
> this additive process for me?
>
> Harry
>
>>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[H LV]

Were the laser beats in the Hagelstein, Letts & Cravens experiment of this
type?

The way the beats are generated could play role in the generation of
anomalous heat.
Harry

On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 2:51 PM Bob Higgins 
wrote:

> No, not exactly.  Addition is a linear process and produces no frequencies
> in the output of the summation which are not present in the input.  A
> nonlinear process is commonly applied to the summation to create beats.
> For example putting a summation of sine wave voltages onto a diode would
> produce a nonlinear current that would contain the beats.
>
> Sampling, like multiplication, is also a nonlinear process that can
> produce beats.
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:19 PM H LV  wrote:
>
>> So the addition of frequencies requires that the input signal already
>> contains a non-linear component.
>> and for entirely linear input the frequencies would not be additive.
>> Harry
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:08 PM Bob Higgins 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> To get frequencies in the output that were not in the input requires a
>>> nonlinearity.  If you model the nonlinearity using a series such as Y = a +
>>> bX + cX^2 + dX^3...
>>> then all of the terms with X^2 and greater are the nonlinear terms.
>>> Usually the coefficient of the squared term, c, is the largest of the
>>> nonlinear terms.  When you have an input that is the sum of two
>>> frequencies, you get a component in Y that is c[sin(w1t) + sin(w2t)]^2  .
>>> It is the square of the sum of sines that produces the sum and difference
>>> frequencies.
>>>
>>> In the case of the Moire masks, you end up with a multiplication taking
>>> place, not a sum.  The product of sines will also produce a sum and
>>> difference.  Multiplication of inputs is a nonlinear operation.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 9:44 AM H LV  wrote:
>>>
 Hi,
 When two waves of different frequencies combine the result is a third
 wave with a beat frequency corresponding to the difference between the two
 original frequencies. A wave model  can show how this happens, but I don't
 see how it can bring about the addition of frequencies. Can someone model
 this additive process for me?

 Harry

>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[H LV]

Swoosh.
...that went right over my head.
Harry


On Sun., Oct. 18, 2020, 2:43 p.m. Terry Blanton,  wrote:

> Heterodyne intermodulation distortion in non-linear combiners.
>
> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4139053
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 11:44 AM H LV  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> When two waves of different frequencies combine the result is a third
>> wave with a beat frequency corresponding to the difference between the two
>> original frequencies. A wave model  can show how this happens, but I don't
>> see how it can bring about the addition of frequencies. Can someone model
>> this additive process for me?
>>
>> Harry
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 3:56 PM Bob Higgins 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The nonlinearity must be attached to the cathode itself because a THz
>>> signal will not go through even 1 micron of electrolyte.  In the
>>> Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein experiment, a tiny amount of gold was added to the
>>> cathode to produce the nonlinearity.  Did it work because it formed a diode
>>> junction?  Was the nonlinearity plasmon related?  That is presently unknown
>>> - but it was produced directly on the cathode, which is the target.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 1:50 PM Sean Logan  wrote:
>>>
 Sounds fascinating.  May I ask:  what are you using as your non-linear
 element, to cause the two laser beams to heterodyne?  Is it the target they
 shine on, itself?

 On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 15:19 Bob Higgins 
 wrote:

> Sean,
>
> What you are describing is entirely possible.  Also, diode lasers can
> be driven into modes that produce sidebands just at the threshold of
> ordinary output - but it is hard to control the sidebands without an
> expensive "loop" receiver and some kind of lock-in control.
>
> Using 2 lasers is pretty easy.  I am presently working on a dual laser
> experiment with 2 tunable diode lasers combined optically onto a single
> fiber. The wavelength separation (determines the beat frequency) is
> continuously monitored in a high resolution fiber spectrometer.  We are
> nearly ready to run experiments with this hardware.
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:10 PM Sean Logan 
> wrote:
>
>> Could you use an Optical Parametric Amplifier to create your desired
>> sidebands?  Using one laser as the "signal input" and the other as the
>> "pump" should give you an output containing sum and difference 
>> frequencies
>> (sidebands, or heterodynes).
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 12:29 H LV  wrote:
>>
>>> In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory
>>> of radiation.  It could still grow and blossom into a well
>>> developed mathematical theory of heat.
>>>
>>> I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended)
>>> with Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since
>>> both involve  _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the
>>> difference of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of
>>> differences are important.The first is that the relative difference in
>>> temperature between two bodies determines which body is producing more 
>>> hot
>>> or more cold radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the
>>> difference between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency
>>> determines whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of 
>>> the
>>> oscillator.
>>>
>>> Harry
>>>
>>>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Bob Higgins]

No, not exactly.  Addition is a linear process and produces no frequencies
in the output of the summation which are not present in the input.  A
nonlinear process is commonly applied to the summation to create beats.
For example putting a summation of sine wave voltages onto a diode would
produce a nonlinear current that would contain the beats.

Sampling, like multiplication, is also a nonlinear process that can produce
beats.

On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:19 PM H LV  wrote:

> So the addition of frequencies requires that the input signal already
> contains a non-linear component.
> and for entirely linear input the frequencies would not be additive.
> Harry
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:08 PM Bob Higgins 
> wrote:
>
>> To get frequencies in the output that were not in the input requires a
>> nonlinearity.  If you model the nonlinearity using a series such as Y = a +
>> bX + cX^2 + dX^3...
>> then all of the terms with X^2 and greater are the nonlinear terms.
>> Usually the coefficient of the squared term, c, is the largest of the
>> nonlinear terms.  When you have an input that is the sum of two
>> frequencies, you get a component in Y that is c[sin(w1t) + sin(w2t)]^2  .
>> It is the square of the sum of sines that produces the sum and difference
>> frequencies.
>>
>> In the case of the Moire masks, you end up with a multiplication taking
>> place, not a sum.  The product of sines will also produce a sum and
>> difference.  Multiplication of inputs is a nonlinear operation.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 9:44 AM H LV  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> When two waves of different frequencies combine the result is a third
>>> wave with a beat frequency corresponding to the difference between the two
>>> original frequencies. A wave model  can show how this happens, but I don't
>>> see how it can bring about the addition of frequencies. Can someone model
>>> this additive process for me?
>>>
>>> Harry
>>>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Terry Blanton]

Heterodyne intermodulation distortion in non-linear combiners.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4139053

On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 11:44 AM H LV  wrote:

> Hi,
> When two waves of different frequencies combine the result is a third wave
> with a beat frequency corresponding to the difference between the two
> original frequencies. A wave model  can show how this happens, but I don't
> see how it can bring about the addition of frequencies. Can someone model
> this additive process for me?
>
> Harry
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 3:56 PM Bob Higgins 
> wrote:
>
>> The nonlinearity must be attached to the cathode itself because a THz
>> signal will not go through even 1 micron of electrolyte.  In the
>> Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein experiment, a tiny amount of gold was added to the
>> cathode to produce the nonlinearity.  Did it work because it formed a diode
>> junction?  Was the nonlinearity plasmon related?  That is presently unknown
>> - but it was produced directly on the cathode, which is the target.
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 1:50 PM Sean Logan  wrote:
>>
>>> Sounds fascinating.  May I ask:  what are you using as your non-linear
>>> element, to cause the two laser beams to heterodyne?  Is it the target they
>>> shine on, itself?
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 15:19 Bob Higgins 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Sean,

 What you are describing is entirely possible.  Also, diode lasers can
 be driven into modes that produce sidebands just at the threshold of
 ordinary output - but it is hard to control the sidebands without an
 expensive "loop" receiver and some kind of lock-in control.

 Using 2 lasers is pretty easy.  I am presently working on a dual laser
 experiment with 2 tunable diode lasers combined optically onto a single
 fiber. The wavelength separation (determines the beat frequency) is
 continuously monitored in a high resolution fiber spectrometer.  We are
 nearly ready to run experiments with this hardware.

 On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:10 PM Sean Logan  wrote:

> Could you use an Optical Parametric Amplifier to create your desired
> sidebands?  Using one laser as the "signal input" and the other as the
> "pump" should give you an output containing sum and difference frequencies
> (sidebands, or heterodynes).
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 12:29 H LV  wrote:
>
>> In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory
>> of radiation.  It could still grow and blossom into a well
>> developed mathematical theory of heat.
>>
>> I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended)
>> with Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since
>> both involve  _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the
>> difference of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of
>> differences are important.The first is that the relative difference in
>> temperature between two bodies determines which body is producing more 
>> hot
>> or more cold radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the
>> difference between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency
>> determines whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the
>> oscillator.
>>
>> Harry
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:21 PM JonesBeene 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The beat frequency they were after  was in the THz range and this
>>> was  in order to fit Hagelstein’s theory of optical phonons –
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> … and yes - small gain was seen.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> However, in the  earlier similar work without beat frequencies –
>>> single laser only - much higher gain (order of magnitude more) has been
>>> reported by Letts/Cravens.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The reproducibility was apparently better in the later experiments -
>>>  but I  do not think the lower  result with the beat frequency is 
>>> leading
>>> anywhere.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *H LV 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Beat frequencies of two lasers irradiating a surface appear in
>>>
>>> _Stimulation of Optical Phonons in Deuterated Palladium_ by Dennis
>>> Letts and Peter Hagelstein
>>>
>>> https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LettsDstimulatio.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Harry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[H LV]

So the addition of frequencies requires that the input signal already
contains a non-linear component.
and for entirely linear input the frequencies would not be additive.
Harry

On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:08 PM Bob Higgins 
wrote:

> To get frequencies in the output that were not in the input requires a
> nonlinearity.  If you model the nonlinearity using a series such as Y = a +
> bX + cX^2 + dX^3...
> then all of the terms with X^2 and greater are the nonlinear terms.
> Usually the coefficient of the squared term, c, is the largest of the
> nonlinear terms.  When you have an input that is the sum of two
> frequencies, you get a component in Y that is c[sin(w1t) + sin(w2t)]^2  .
> It is the square of the sum of sines that produces the sum and difference
> frequencies.
>
> In the case of the Moire masks, you end up with a multiplication taking
> place, not a sum.  The product of sines will also produce a sum and
> difference.  Multiplication of inputs is a nonlinear operation.
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 9:44 AM H LV  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> When two waves of different frequencies combine the result is a third
>> wave with a beat frequency corresponding to the difference between the two
>> original frequencies. A wave model  can show how this happens, but I don't
>> see how it can bring about the addition of frequencies. Can someone model
>> this additive process for me?
>>
>> Harry
>>
>>>

RE: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[bobcook39...@hotmail.com]

I consudert that the phonic parat
Meters of a given system are a function of the size of the qm system the has 
the phonic capability.

The ambient magnetic field controles the direction of the angu7lar momentum of 
the elecvtronic structure.  \
\
To allow a transfer of angular momentum iit is necessary to have the phonic 
magnetic moment near the directiuon of the nuclear entity giving up angular 
momentum and energy rto to the accepting phonic structure of the coupled 
system,.

A laser magmetic  field may supply the required direction in the instant the 
“phase change” happens/,.  Angular momemtum m and energy must be conserved

A strong ambient magnetic field math a coridnated laser beam may make the 
reaction easier to contril/.

Bob Cook

Y spelling i9s poor because of pour eye sight.

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Jürg Wyttenbach<mailto:ju...@datamart.ch>
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2020 3:18 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com<mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats


Unluckily Hagelstein has no clue of LENR!

Phonons energy up-scaling is not what enables LENR. The LENR reaction needs no 
energy input to induce it. It's the other way round. LENR happens if you can 
extract the excess energy. But the end of all energy is always phonons=heat and 
thus a LENR reaction needs an optimal phonon target energy for maximal 
efficient coupling. The more phonons are ready to synchronize the faster a 
reaction runs.

Gamma radiation only occurs when the phonon resonance stops/ is broken.

J.W.




On 16.10.2020 18:29, Bob Higgins wrote:
We are talking about THz stimulation of a cathode in a Pd-D electrolysis LENR 
cell.  Certain frequencies of THz excitation stimulate LENR to occur, the 
frequencies being around 8, 15, 21 THz.  These are believed to be phonon 
frequencies in the loaded Pd-D lattice.  Thus, the Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein 
experiment of the tuned dual laser illumination seems to implicate phonons in, 
at least, the stimulation of LENR.  It is a very interesting probe into the 
underlying mechanism of LENR.

Here is the curve:
[cid:image002.png@01D6A53C.D9C92FF0]
It is from:

Hagelstein, P. L., D. Letts, and D. Cravens. "Terahertz difference frequency 
response of Pd-D in two-lader experiments." J. Condensed Matter Nucl. Sci. 3 
(2010) 59-76


On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 8:32 PM Robert Lee 
mailto:mrrobert...@yahoo.com>> wrote:
I must've missed a few classes; are you talking about creating or removing heat 
in a general sense, starting an atomic nuclear reaction, or simply producing 
energy? I joined the group last night and, obviously, missed a few emails, too. 
Just curious.
Bob Lee

[https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.png]<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Virus-free. 
www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>

--

Jürg Wyttenbach

Bifangstr. 22

8910 Affoltern am Albis



+41 44 760 14 18

+41 79 246 36 06

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Bob Higgins]

To get frequencies in the output that were not in the input requires a
nonlinearity.  If you model the nonlinearity using a series such as Y = a +
bX + cX^2 + dX^3...
then all of the terms with X^2 and greater are the nonlinear terms.
Usually the coefficient of the squared term, c, is the largest of the
nonlinear terms.  When you have an input that is the sum of two
frequencies, you get a component in Y that is c[sin(w1t) + sin(w2t)]^2  .
It is the square of the sum of sines that produces the sum and difference
frequencies.

In the case of the Moire masks, you end up with a multiplication taking
place, not a sum.  The product of sines will also produce a sum and
difference.  Multiplication of inputs is a nonlinear operation.

On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 9:44 AM H LV  wrote:

> Hi,
> When two waves of different frequencies combine the result is a third wave
> with a beat frequency corresponding to the difference between the two
> original frequencies. A wave model  can show how this happens, but I don't
> see how it can bring about the addition of frequencies. Can someone model
> this additive process for me?
>
> Harry
>
>>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[H LV]

If cold is a thing, then perhaps the laser is a cold pump and what is being
extracted are longer (cooler) wavelength vibrations  from the electrode,
thereby increasing the electrode's capacity to absorb shorter (hotter)
wavelengths from the laboratory surroundings. These hotter wavelengths then
enable nuclear activity.

Notice this explanation does not violate the phenomenological or classical
second law of thermodynamics since the excess energy is absorbed from the
surroundings.

Anyway nature is coaxed into doing the hard work, but the coaxing does
require little prep work.

Harry


On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 6:18 AM Jürg Wyttenbach  wrote:

> Unluckily Hagelstein has no clue of LENR!
>
> Phonons energy up-scaling is not what enables LENR. The LENR reaction
> needs no energy input to induce it. It's the other way round. LENR happens
> if you can extract the excess energy. But the end of all energy is always
> phonons=heat and thus a LENR reaction needs an optimal phonon target energy
> for maximal efficient coupling. The more phonons are ready to synchronize
> the faster a reaction runs.
>
> Gamma radiation only occurs when the phonon resonance stops/ is broken.
>
> J.W.
>
>
>
> On 16.10.2020 18:29, Bob Higgins wrote:
>
> We are talking about THz stimulation of a cathode in a Pd-D electrolysis
> LENR cell.  Certain frequencies of THz excitation stimulate LENR to occur,
> the frequencies being around 8, 15, 21 THz.  These are believed to be
> phonon frequencies in the loaded Pd-D lattice.  Thus, the
> Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein experiment of the tuned dual laser illumination
> seems to implicate phonons in, at least, the stimulation of LENR.  It is a
> very interesting probe into the underlying mechanism of LENR.
>
> Here is the curve:
> [image: XPvsLaserBeatFrequency_Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein.png]
> It is from:
>
> Hagelstein, P. L., D. Letts, and D. Cravens. "Terahertz difference
> frequency response of Pd-D in two-lader experiments." J. Condensed Matter
> Nucl. Sci. 3 (2010) 59-76
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 8:32 PM Robert Lee  wrote:
>
>> I must've missed a few classes; are you talking about creating or
>> removing heat in a general sense, starting an atomic nuclear reaction, or
>> simply producing energy? I joined the group last night and, obviously,
>> missed a few emails, too. Just curious.
>> Bob Lee
>>
>
>
> 
>  Virus-free.
> www.avg.com
> 
>
> --
> Jürg Wyttenbach
> Bifangstr. 22
> 8910 Affoltern am Albis
>
> +41 44 760 14 18
> +41 79 246 36 06
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[H LV]

Hi,
When two waves of different frequencies combine the result is a third wave
with a beat frequency corresponding to the difference between the two
original frequencies. A wave model  can show how this happens, but I don't
see how it can bring about the addition of frequencies. Can someone model
this additive process for me?

Harry

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 3:56 PM Bob Higgins 
wrote:

> The nonlinearity must be attached to the cathode itself because a THz
> signal will not go through even 1 micron of electrolyte.  In the
> Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein experiment, a tiny amount of gold was added to the
> cathode to produce the nonlinearity.  Did it work because it formed a diode
> junction?  Was the nonlinearity plasmon related?  That is presently unknown
> - but it was produced directly on the cathode, which is the target.
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 1:50 PM Sean Logan  wrote:
>
>> Sounds fascinating.  May I ask:  what are you using as your non-linear
>> element, to cause the two laser beams to heterodyne?  Is it the target they
>> shine on, itself?
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 15:19 Bob Higgins  wrote:
>>
>>> Sean,
>>>
>>> What you are describing is entirely possible.  Also, diode lasers can be
>>> driven into modes that produce sidebands just at the threshold of ordinary
>>> output - but it is hard to control the sidebands without an expensive
>>> "loop" receiver and some kind of lock-in control.
>>>
>>> Using 2 lasers is pretty easy.  I am presently working on a dual laser
>>> experiment with 2 tunable diode lasers combined optically onto a single
>>> fiber. The wavelength separation (determines the beat frequency) is
>>> continuously monitored in a high resolution fiber spectrometer.  We are
>>> nearly ready to run experiments with this hardware.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:10 PM Sean Logan  wrote:
>>>
 Could you use an Optical Parametric Amplifier to create your desired
 sidebands?  Using one laser as the "signal input" and the other as the
 "pump" should give you an output containing sum and difference frequencies
 (sidebands, or heterodynes).


 On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 12:29 H LV  wrote:

> In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory
> of radiation.  It could still grow and blossom into a well
> developed mathematical theory of heat.
>
> I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended)
> with Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since
> both involve  _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the
> difference of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of
> differences are important.The first is that the relative difference in
> temperature between two bodies determines which body is producing more hot
> or more cold radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the
> difference between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency
> determines whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the
> oscillator.
>
> Harry
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:21 PM JonesBeene 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> The beat frequency they were after  was in the THz range and this was
>>  in order to fit Hagelstein’s theory of optical phonons –
>>
>>
>>
>> … and yes - small gain was seen.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, in the  earlier similar work without beat frequencies –
>> single laser only - much higher gain (order of magnitude more) has been
>> reported by Letts/Cravens.
>>
>>
>>
>> The reproducibility was apparently better in the later experiments -
>>  but I  do not think the lower  result with the beat frequency is leading
>> anywhere.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *H LV 
>>
>>
>>
>> Beat frequencies of two lasers irradiating a surface appear in
>>
>> _Stimulation of Optical Phonons in Deuterated Palladium_ by Dennis
>> Letts and Peter Hagelstein
>>
>> https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LettsDstimulatio.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>> Harry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Jürg Wyttenbach]

Unluckily Hagelstein has no clue of LENR!

Phonons energy up-scaling is not what enables LENR. The LENR reaction 
needs no energy input to induce it. It's the other way round. LENR 
happens if you can extract the excess energy. But the end of all energy 
is always phonons=heat and thus a LENR reaction needs an optimal phonon 
target energy for maximal efficient coupling. The more phonons are ready 
to synchronize the faster a reaction runs.


Gamma radiation only occurs when the phonon resonance stops/ is broken.

J.W.



On 16.10.2020 18:29, Bob Higgins wrote:
We are talking about THz stimulation of a cathode in a Pd-D 
electrolysis LENR cell.  Certain frequencies of THz excitation 
stimulate LENR to occur, the frequencies being around 8, 15, 21 THz.  
These are believed to be phonon frequencies in the loaded Pd-D 
lattice.  Thus, the Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein experiment of the tuned 
dual laser illumination seems to implicate phonons in, at least, the 
stimulation of LENR.  It is a very interesting probe into the 
underlying mechanism of LENR.


Here is the curve:
XPvsLaserBeatFrequency_Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein.png
It is from:

Hagelstein, P. L., D. Letts, and D. Cravens. "Terahertz difference
frequency response of Pd-D in two-lader experiments." J. Condensed
Matter Nucl. Sci. 3 (2010) 59-76



On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 8:32 PM Robert Lee > wrote:


I must've missed a few classes; are you talking about creating or
removing heat in a general sense, starting an atomic nuclear
reaction, or simply producing energy? I joined the group last
night and, obviously, missed a few emails, too. Just curious.
Bob Lee


 
	Virus-free. www.avg.com 
 




--
Jürg Wyttenbach
Bifangstr. 22
8910 Affoltern am Albis

+41 44 760 14 18
+41 79 246 36 06

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[H LV]

On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 9:22 AM JonesBeene  wrote:

> *From: *Robert Lee 
>
>
>
>- I must've missed a few classes; are you talking about creating or
>removing heat in a general sense, starting an atomic nuclear reaction, or
>simply producing energy? I joined the group last night and, obviously,
>missed a few emails, too. Just curious.
>
>
>
> The thread started out as vaguely related to “alternative” thermodynamics…
> which is probably a subset of “alternative facts.” But like so many threads
> here it generally revolved back around to the implications of finding a
> free lunch.
>
>
>
>
>


Since you are alluding to something I said earlier,  what actually I said
was an "alternative theory of radiation".

Unlike statistical thermodynamics, the classical laws of thermodynamics are
silent about the precise nature of heat and radiation. Therefore it is
possible to pose alternative theories of heat and radiation which do not
violate the classical laws. However, such alternative theories might lead
to new explanations and discoveries that don't make sense within the
confines of statistical thermodynamics.

Harry

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Bob Higgins]

We are talking about THz stimulation of a cathode in a Pd-D electrolysis
LENR cell.  Certain frequencies of THz excitation stimulate LENR to occur,
the frequencies being around 8, 15, 21 THz.  These are believed to be
phonon frequencies in the loaded Pd-D lattice.  Thus, the
Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein experiment of the tuned dual laser illumination
seems to implicate phonons in, at least, the stimulation of LENR.  It is a
very interesting probe into the underlying mechanism of LENR.

Here is the curve:
[image: XPvsLaserBeatFrequency_Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein.png]
It is from:

Hagelstein, P. L., D. Letts, and D. Cravens. "Terahertz difference
frequency response of Pd-D in two-lader experiments." J. Condensed Matter
Nucl. Sci. 3 (2010) 59-76



On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 8:32 PM Robert Lee  wrote:

> I must've missed a few classes; are you talking about creating or removing
> heat in a general sense, starting an atomic nuclear reaction, or simply
> producing energy? I joined the group last night and, obviously, missed a
> few emails, too. Just curious.
> Bob Lee
>


Virus-free.
www.avg.com

<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

RE: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[JonesBeene]

From: Robert Lee

➢ I must've missed a few classes; are you talking about creating or removing 
heat in a general sense, starting an atomic nuclear reaction, or simply 
producing energy? I joined the group last night and, obviously, missed a few 
emails, too. Just curious.

The thread started out as vaguely related to “alternative” thermodynamics… 
which is probably a subset of “alternative facts.” But like so many threads 
here it generally revolved back around to the implications of finding a free 
lunch.  
 

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Robert Lee]

I must've missed a few classes; are you talking about creating or removing heat 
in a general sense, starting an atomic nuclear reaction, or simply producing 
energy? I joined the group last night and, obviously, missed a few emails, too. 
Just curious.Bob Lee

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 12:56 PM, Bob Higgins 
wrote:   The nonlinearity must be attached to the cathode itself because a THz 
signal will not go through even 1 micron of electrolyte.  In the 
Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein experiment, a tiny amount of gold was added to the 
cathode to produce the nonlinearity.  Did it work because it formed a diode 
junction?  Was the nonlinearity plasmon related?  That is presently unknown - 
but it was produced directly on the cathode, which is the target.
On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 1:50 PM Sean Logan  wrote:

Sounds fascinating.  May I ask:  what are you using as your non-linear element, 
to cause the two laser beams to heterodyne?  Is it the target they shine on, 
itself?
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 15:19 Bob Higgins  wrote:

Sean, 
What you are describing is entirely possible.  Also, diode lasers can be driven 
into modes that produce sidebands just at the threshold of ordinary output - 
but it is hard to control the sidebands without an expensive "loop" receiver 
and some kind of lock-in control.  
Using 2 lasers is pretty easy.  I am presently working on a dual laser 
experiment with 2 tunable diode lasers combined optically onto a single fiber. 
The wavelength separation (determines the beat frequency) is continuously 
monitored in a high resolution fiber spectrometer.  We are nearly ready to run 
experiments with this hardware.
On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:10 PM Sean Logan  wrote:

Could you use an Optical Parametric Amplifier to create your desired sidebands? 
 Using one laser as the "signal input" and the other as the "pump" should give 
you an output containing sum and difference frequencies (sidebands, or 
heterodynes).

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 12:29 H LV  wrote:

In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory of 
radiation.  It could still grow and blossom into a well developed mathematical 
theory of heat.

I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended) with 
Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, sinceboth involve  _differences_. A 
beat frequency is given by the difference of two frequencies and in Rumford`s 
theory two types of differences are important.The first is that the relative 
difference in temperature between two bodies determines which body is producing 
more hot or more cold radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of 
the difference between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency 
determines whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the 
oscillator. 
Harry
On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:21 PM JonesBeene  wrote:


 

The beat frequency they were after  was in the THz range and this was  in order 
to fit Hagelstein’s theory of optical phonons – 

 

… and yes - small gain was seen.

 

However, in the  earlier similar work without beat frequencies – single laser 
only - much higher gain (order of magnitude more) has been reported by 
Letts/Cravens.

 

The reproducibility was apparently better in the later experiments -  but I  do 
not think the lower  result with the beat frequency is leading anywhere.

 

 

 

From: H LV

 

Beat frequencies of two lasers irradiating a surface appear in   

_Stimulation of Optical Phonons in Deuterated Palladium_ by Dennis Letts and 
Peter Hagelstein 

https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LettsDstimulatio.pdf

 

Harry

 

 





  

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Bob Higgins]

The nonlinearity must be attached to the cathode itself because a THz
signal will not go through even 1 micron of electrolyte.  In the
Letts-Cravens-Hagelstein experiment, a tiny amount of gold was added to the
cathode to produce the nonlinearity.  Did it work because it formed a diode
junction?  Was the nonlinearity plasmon related?  That is presently unknown
- but it was produced directly on the cathode, which is the target.

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 1:50 PM Sean Logan  wrote:

> Sounds fascinating.  May I ask:  what are you using as your non-linear
> element, to cause the two laser beams to heterodyne?  Is it the target they
> shine on, itself?
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 15:19 Bob Higgins  wrote:
>
>> Sean,
>>
>> What you are describing is entirely possible.  Also, diode lasers can be
>> driven into modes that produce sidebands just at the threshold of ordinary
>> output - but it is hard to control the sidebands without an expensive
>> "loop" receiver and some kind of lock-in control.
>>
>> Using 2 lasers is pretty easy.  I am presently working on a dual laser
>> experiment with 2 tunable diode lasers combined optically onto a single
>> fiber. The wavelength separation (determines the beat frequency) is
>> continuously monitored in a high resolution fiber spectrometer.  We are
>> nearly ready to run experiments with this hardware.
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:10 PM Sean Logan  wrote:
>>
>>> Could you use an Optical Parametric Amplifier to create your desired
>>> sidebands?  Using one laser as the "signal input" and the other as the
>>> "pump" should give you an output containing sum and difference frequencies
>>> (sidebands, or heterodynes).
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 12:29 H LV  wrote:
>>>
 In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory of
 radiation.  It could still grow and blossom into a well
 developed mathematical theory of heat.

 I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended) with
 Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since
 both involve  _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the
 difference of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of
 differences are important.The first is that the relative difference in
 temperature between two bodies determines which body is producing more hot
 or more cold radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the
 difference between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency
 determines whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the
 oscillator.

 Harry

 On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:21 PM JonesBeene  wrote:

>
>
> The beat frequency they were after  was in the THz range and this was
>  in order to fit Hagelstein’s theory of optical phonons –
>
>
>
> … and yes - small gain was seen.
>
>
>
> However, in the  earlier similar work without beat frequencies –
> single laser only - much higher gain (order of magnitude more) has been
> reported by Letts/Cravens.
>
>
>
> The reproducibility was apparently better in the later experiments -
>  but I  do not think the lower  result with the beat frequency is leading
> anywhere.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *H LV 
>
>
>
> Beat frequencies of two lasers irradiating a surface appear in
>
> _Stimulation of Optical Phonons in Deuterated Palladium_ by Dennis
> Letts and Peter Hagelstein
>
> https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LettsDstimulatio.pdf
>
>
>
> Harry
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Sean Logan]

Sounds fascinating.  May I ask:  what are you using as your non-linear
element, to cause the two laser beams to heterodyne?  Is it the target they
shine on, itself?

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 15:19 Bob Higgins  wrote:

> Sean,
>
> What you are describing is entirely possible.  Also, diode lasers can be
> driven into modes that produce sidebands just at the threshold of ordinary
> output - but it is hard to control the sidebands without an expensive
> "loop" receiver and some kind of lock-in control.
>
> Using 2 lasers is pretty easy.  I am presently working on a dual laser
> experiment with 2 tunable diode lasers combined optically onto a single
> fiber. The wavelength separation (determines the beat frequency) is
> continuously monitored in a high resolution fiber spectrometer.  We are
> nearly ready to run experiments with this hardware.
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:10 PM Sean Logan  wrote:
>
>> Could you use an Optical Parametric Amplifier to create your desired
>> sidebands?  Using one laser as the "signal input" and the other as the
>> "pump" should give you an output containing sum and difference frequencies
>> (sidebands, or heterodynes).
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 12:29 H LV  wrote:
>>
>>> In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory of
>>> radiation.  It could still grow and blossom into a well
>>> developed mathematical theory of heat.
>>>
>>> I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended) with
>>> Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since
>>> both involve  _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the difference
>>> of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of differences are
>>> important.The first is that the relative difference in temperature between
>>> two bodies determines which body is producing more hot or more cold
>>> radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the difference
>>> between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency determines
>>> whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the oscillator.
>>>
>>> Harry
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:21 PM JonesBeene  wrote:
>>>


 The beat frequency they were after  was in the THz range and this was
  in order to fit Hagelstein’s theory of optical phonons –



 … and yes - small gain was seen.



 However, in the  earlier similar work without beat frequencies – single
 laser only - much higher gain (order of magnitude more) has been reported
 by Letts/Cravens.



 The reproducibility was apparently better in the later experiments -
  but I  do not think the lower  result with the beat frequency is leading
 anywhere.







 *From: *H LV 



 Beat frequencies of two lasers irradiating a surface appear in

 _Stimulation of Optical Phonons in Deuterated Palladium_ by Dennis
 Letts and Peter Hagelstein

 https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LettsDstimulatio.pdf



 Harry





>>>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[H LV]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 9:16 AM JonesBeene  wrote:

> If you haven’t seen it- this entry below addresses the semantics issue,
> which is the bulk of the problem of cold radiation.
>
>
>
>
> https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/193054/thermodynamics-possibility-of-cold-radiation
>
>
>

Before the current understanding of radiation and heat mostly
solidified into a consensus in the second half of the 19th century, there
were deep disagreements about the nature of heat and radiation which could
not be resolved semantically.
BTW It is important to keep in mind that there is a distinction between the
laws of thermodynamics and theories of heat and radiation, because it is
possible that the latter could change again without violating the former.

One commenter at the link reasoned:
<>

I have thought about this too, but I think this is a strawman argument. The
commenter presumes that if cold radiation is real, then it must necessarily
be the mirror image of hot radiation.

Harry






> A related and possibly more interesting problem is that of  “cold
> electricity” which supposedly is a concept which goes back to Tesla (the
> guy not the car).
>
>
>
> Indeed “cold electricity” can be identified with hole carriers instead of
> electrons … but this is not the same as cold radiation (unless you want to
> define it that way)/
>
>
>
> But if it is real, then  maybe cold electricity  should be called
> “holicity”
>
>
>
> 😊
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Bob Higgins 
>
>
>
> Could the "cold radiation" be considered something like hole carriers in a
> semiconductor?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:29 PM H LV  wrote:
>
> In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory of
> radiation.  It could still grow and blossom into a well
> developed mathematical theory of heat.
>
> I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended) with
> Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since
>
> both involve  _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the difference
> of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of differences are
> important.The first is that the relative difference in temperature between
> two bodies determines which body is producing more hot or more cold
> radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the difference
> between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency determines
> whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the oscillator.
>
>
>
> Harry
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[H LV]

Rumford's used an acoustic model of hot and cold radiation to give equal
existence to hot and cold radiation but the acoustic model has serious
limitations.   I think a hole model would still treat hot radiation as
fundamental and cold radiation as only a secondary phenomena.

Moire patterns might be a better way to model hot and cold radiation. Two
underlying patterns would interfere to produce spots of light and dark, i.e
hot and cold.

Moiré Matrix and Penrose Pattern & Figure-ground at ILLUSION
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5Gd5FWvEP8

Harry




Harry

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 6:20 PM Bob Higgins 
wrote:

> Could the "cold radiation" be considered something like hole carriers in a
> semiconductor?
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:29 PM H LV  wrote:
>
>> In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory of
>> radiation.  It could still grow and blossom into a well
>> developed mathematical theory of heat.
>>
>> I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended) with
>> Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since
>> both involve  _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the difference
>> of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of differences are
>> important.The first is that the relative difference in temperature between
>> two bodies determines which body is producing more hot or more cold
>> radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the difference
>> between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency determines
>> whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the oscillator.
>>
>> Harry
>>
>

RE: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[JonesBeene]

If you haven’t seen it- this entry below addresses the semantics issue, which 
is the bulk of the problem of cold radiation.

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/193054/thermodynamics-possibility-of-cold-radiation

A related and possibly more interesting problem is that of  “cold electricity” 
which supposedly is a concept which goes back to Tesla (the guy not the car).

Indeed “cold electricity” can be identified with hole carriers instead of 
electrons … but this is not the same as cold radiation (unless you want to 
define it that way)/

But if it is real, then  maybe cold electricity  should be called “holicity”

😊



From: Bob Higgins

Could the "cold radiation" be considered something like hole carriers in a 
semiconductor?

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:29 PM H LV  wrote:
In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory of 
radiation.  It could still grow and blossom into a well developed mathematical 
theory of heat.
I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended) with 
Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since
both involve  _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the difference of two 
frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of differences are important.The 
first is that the relative difference in temperature between two bodies 
determines which body is producing more hot or more cold radiation. The second 
is that the sign and magnitude of the difference between the received frequency 
and the oscillator's frequency determines whether the radiation increases or 
decreases the energy of the oscillator. 

Harry

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Bob Higgins]

Could the "cold radiation" be considered something like hole carriers in a
semiconductor?

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 1:29 PM H LV  wrote:

> In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory of
> radiation.  It could still grow and blossom into a well
> developed mathematical theory of heat.
>
> I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended) with
> Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since
> both involve  _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the difference
> of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of differences are
> important.The first is that the relative difference in temperature between
> two bodies determines which body is producing more hot or more cold
> radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the difference
> between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency determines
> whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the oscillator.
>
> Harry
>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Bob Higgins]

Sean,

What you are describing is entirely possible.  Also, diode lasers can be
driven into modes that produce sidebands just at the threshold of ordinary
output - but it is hard to control the sidebands without an expensive
"loop" receiver and some kind of lock-in control.

Using 2 lasers is pretty easy.  I am presently working on a dual laser
experiment with 2 tunable diode lasers combined optically onto a single
fiber. The wavelength separation (determines the beat frequency) is
continuously monitored in a high resolution fiber spectrometer.  We are
nearly ready to run experiments with this hardware.

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:10 PM Sean Logan  wrote:

> Could you use an Optical Parametric Amplifier to create your desired
> sidebands?  Using one laser as the "signal input" and the other as the
> "pump" should give you an output containing sum and difference frequencies
> (sidebands, or heterodynes).
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 12:29 H LV  wrote:
>
>> In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory of
>> radiation.  It could still grow and blossom into a well
>> developed mathematical theory of heat.
>>
>> I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended) with
>> Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since
>> both involve  _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the difference
>> of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of differences are
>> important.The first is that the relative difference in temperature between
>> two bodies determines which body is producing more hot or more cold
>> radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the difference
>> between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency determines
>> whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the oscillator.
>>
>> Harry
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:21 PM JonesBeene  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The beat frequency they were after  was in the THz range and this was
>>>  in order to fit Hagelstein’s theory of optical phonons –
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> … and yes - small gain was seen.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> However, in the  earlier similar work without beat frequencies – single
>>> laser only - much higher gain (order of magnitude more) has been reported
>>> by Letts/Cravens.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The reproducibility was apparently better in the later experiments -
>>>  but I  do not think the lower  result with the beat frequency is leading
>>> anywhere.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *H LV 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Beat frequencies of two lasers irradiating a surface appear in
>>>
>>> _Stimulation of Optical Phonons in Deuterated Palladium_ by Dennis Letts
>>> and Peter Hagelstein
>>>
>>> https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LettsDstimulatio.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Harry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Sean Logan]

Could you use an Optical Parametric Amplifier to create your desired
sidebands?  Using one laser as the "signal input" and the other as the
"pump" should give you an output containing sum and difference frequencies
(sidebands, or heterodynes).


On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 12:29 H LV  wrote:

> In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory of
> radiation.  It could still grow and blossom into a well
> developed mathematical theory of heat.
>
> I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended) with
> Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since
> both involve  _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the difference
> of two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of differences are
> important.The first is that the relative difference in temperature between
> two bodies determines which body is producing more hot or more cold
> radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the difference
> between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency determines
> whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the oscillator.
>
> Harry
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:21 PM JonesBeene  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> The beat frequency they were after  was in the THz range and this was  in
>> order to fit Hagelstein’s theory of optical phonons –
>>
>>
>>
>> … and yes - small gain was seen.
>>
>>
>>
>> However, in the  earlier similar work without beat frequencies – single
>> laser only - much higher gain (order of magnitude more) has been reported
>> by Letts/Cravens.
>>
>>
>>
>> The reproducibility was apparently better in the later experiments -  but
>> I  do not think the lower  result with the beat frequency is leading
>> anywhere.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *H LV 
>>
>>
>>
>> Beat frequencies of two lasers irradiating a surface appear in
>>
>> _Stimulation of Optical Phonons in Deuterated Palladium_ by Dennis Letts
>> and Peter Hagelstein
>>
>> https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LettsDstimulatio.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>> Harry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[H LV]

In my estimation Rumford's theory is the seed of an alternate theory of
radiation.  It could still grow and blossom into a well
developed mathematical theory of heat.

I am interested in beat theory because it resonants (pun intended) with
Rumford`s theory of hot and cold radiation, since
both involve  _differences_. A beat frequency is given by the difference of
two frequencies and in Rumford`s theory two types of differences are
important.The first is that the relative difference in temperature between
two bodies determines which body is producing more hot or more cold
radiation. The second is that the sign and magnitude of the difference
between the received frequency and the oscillator's frequency determines
whether the radiation increases or decreases the energy of the oscillator.

Harry

On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 3:21 PM JonesBeene  wrote:

>
>
> The beat frequency they were after  was in the THz range and this was  in
> order to fit Hagelstein’s theory of optical phonons –
>
>
>
> … and yes - small gain was seen.
>
>
>
> However, in the  earlier similar work without beat frequencies – single
> laser only - much higher gain (order of magnitude more) has been reported
> by Letts/Cravens.
>
>
>
> The reproducibility was apparently better in the later experiments -  but
> I  do not think the lower  result with the beat frequency is leading
> anywhere.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *H LV 
>
>
>
> Beat frequencies of two lasers irradiating a surface appear in
>
> _Stimulation of Optical Phonons in Deuterated Palladium_ by Dennis Letts
> and Peter Hagelstein
>
> https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LettsDstimulatio.pdf
>
>
>
> Harry
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[AlanG]

On 10/13/2020 6:03 PM, Jones Beene wrote:

Have you been able to buy one?

As you suggested, there's a gap in the wavelength of commercially 
available systems. Semiconductor diode lasers seem to be currently 
available down to 3.5 um (83 THz)

https://www.toptica.com/products/tunable-diode-lasers/ecdl-dfb-lasers/dfb-pro/

Optically pumped secondary lasers are available up to 7.5 THz / 100 mW, 
typically used in security scanners.

https://www.edinst.com/products/firl-100-pumped-fir-system/

There appears to be a lot of current research to fill the gap, so 
hopefully available soon but not quite yet.

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Bob Higgins]

Unfortunately, at least for electrochemical LENR, the THz radiation will
not penetrate the electrolyte (not even a micron).  The dual laser approach
worked because the two red lasers would pass through the electrolyte and
the beat frequency was produced directly on the cathode surface without the
THz beat having to propagate through the electrolyte.  However, for that
THz beat to form, a nonlinearity must be present at the surface of the
cathode.  If it were linear, then the only frequencies in the output are
those at the input.  It is believed that the addition of the thin film of
gold provided the prescribed nonlinearity.  When gold goes down at a low
rate, it is possible for it to form micro- or nano-scale islands rather
than a uniform epitaxy of thin gold.  These islands could form plasmon or
other resonant effects that could enhance the local nonlinearity - they
could even form metal-oxide semiconductor junctions for the nonlinear
mixing.

OTOH, if you had a gas phase system (perhaps Mizuno-like), a tunable THz
laser would be an excellent stimulation.  I am not sure how well direct THz
stimulation would work through a plasma - it may just reflect or be
absorbed in the plasma.

I would love to have a tunable THz laser to try it.

Bob

On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 8:39 AM JonesBeene  wrote:

>
>
> Good post, Bob
>
>
>
> Because of this effect (Letts/Cravens) and the optical phonon addition of
> Hagelstein and the  Holmlid work also – it seems clear that laser
> irradiation of a metal matrix  is perhaps the most promising open avenue
> for optimizing LENR gain.
>
>
>
> It would be great if THz lasers were available now at reasonable cost, and
> maybe they will be soon but it seems like this is the stumbling point in
> progress.
>
>
>
> I would like to see what happens if sequential THz pulsing is followed
> closely in time by a UV laser pulse on the exact same area of loaded matrix.
>
>
>
> IOW the Terahertz pulse primes the target for the much more intense
> radiation which follows.
>
>
>
> This could be a shortcut to Holmlid’s claimed proton annihilation instead
> of “mere fusion. “
>
>
>
> proton annihilation… Ha ! what a concept, almost a LOL…
>
>
>
> … and to think it could be generally ignored by the institutionalized
> Fizzix establishment …
>
>
>
> That would be the Science Story of the century. I was hoping to hear from
> Norront this year.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Bob Higgins 
>
>
>
> Laser stimulation of LENR cells is an interesting subject.  These
> experiments can probe the underlying mechanisms of LENR itself.  One of the
> things that has not been characterized in the laser stimulation studies is
> the sideband noise of the lasers.  All oscillators exhibit sideband noise.
> Oscillators are nonlinear electronic/electro-optical circuits.  Because of
> the internal high Q cavity, the intensity of the oscillation is Q times
> higher than the output of the oscillator/laser.  This oscillator
> nonlinearity causes the noise at baseband to beat up to form sidebands
> around the oscillator primary output.  Also, any noise or modulation of the
> cavity beats to baseband.  This means that for a 400 THz red laser, there
> could easily be 8-15 THz sideband energy that will mix with the laser's
> main component producing 8-15 THz baseband excitation.
>
>
>
> So, a single laser excitation is not necessarily a pure 400 THz excitation
> - it could directly excite 8-15 THz phonons with its sidebands.
>
>
>
> The dual laser experiment is important because it provides a controlled
> frequency of THz beat excitation.  The LENR output was found to be
> triggered only by specific frequencies of the beat signal that happened to
> correspond to phonon excitation.
>
>
>
> I don't think the phonon correspondence is air-tight because no one
> apparently calculates true phonon solutions for the material.  If you look
> at the acoustic propagation formulation, they begin by expanding the
> nonlinear Young's modulus in a series.  Then they throw away the nonlinear
> terms of the series and use a linear representation of the Young's
> modulus.  Because of this, true phonon solutions will not emerge from the
> equations because phonons are soliton solutions.  Soliton solutions
> *require* a nonlinear medium which the present formulations of the
> acoustics do not represent (by choice because they cannot solve the
> nonlinear formulated equation).  Yes, you can find singularities in the
> solutions of the linear formulations and say that's where the phonons must
> lie - but it is only an approximate guess ("thar be dragons").
>
>
>
> JonesBeene wrote:
>
> The beat frequency they were after  was in the THz range and this was  in
> order to fit Hagelstein’s theory of optical phonons … and yes - small gain
> was seen.
>
> However, in the  earlier similar work without beat frequencies – single
> laser only - much higher gain (order of magnitude more) has been reported
> by Letts/Cravens.
>
> The reproducibility was apparently better in 

RE: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[JonesBeene]

Good post, Bob

Because of this effect (Letts/Cravens) and the optical phonon addition of 
Hagelstein and the  Holmlid work also – it seems clear that laser irradiation 
of a metal matrix  is perhaps the most promising open avenue for optimizing 
LENR gain.

It would be great if THz lasers were available now at reasonable cost, and 
maybe they will be soon but it seems like this is the stumbling point in 
progress.

I would like to see what happens if sequential THz pulsing is followed closely 
in time by a UV laser pulse on the exact same area of loaded matrix.

 IOW the Terahertz pulse primes the target for the much more intense radiation 
which follows.

This could be a shortcut to Holmlid’s claimed proton annihilation instead of 
“mere fusion. “ 
 
proton annihilation… Ha ! what a concept, almost a LOL…

… and to think it could be generally ignored by the institutionalized Fizzix 
establishment …

 That would be the Science Story of the century. I was hoping to hear from 
Norront this year.


From: Bob Higgins

Laser stimulation of LENR cells is an interesting subject.  These experiments 
can probe the underlying mechanisms of LENR itself.  One of the things that has 
not been characterized in the laser stimulation studies is the sideband noise 
of the lasers.  All oscillators exhibit sideband noise.  Oscillators are 
nonlinear electronic/electro-optical circuits.  Because of the internal high Q 
cavity, the intensity of the oscillation is Q times higher than the output of 
the oscillator/laser.  This oscillator nonlinearity causes the noise at 
baseband to beat up to form sidebands around the oscillator primary output.  
Also, any noise or modulation of the cavity beats to baseband.  This means that 
for a 400 THz red laser, there could easily be 8-15 THz sideband energy that 
will mix with the laser's main component producing 8-15 THz baseband excitation.

So, a single laser excitation is not necessarily a pure 400 THz excitation - it 
could directly excite 8-15 THz phonons with its sidebands.

The dual laser experiment is important because it provides a controlled 
frequency of THz beat excitation.  The LENR output was found to be triggered 
only by specific frequencies of the beat signal that happened to correspond to 
phonon excitation.  

I don't think the phonon correspondence is air-tight because no one apparently 
calculates true phonon solutions for the material.  If you look at the acoustic 
propagation formulation, they begin by expanding the nonlinear Young's modulus 
in a series.  Then they throw away the nonlinear terms of the series and use a 
linear representation of the Young's modulus.  Because of this, true phonon 
solutions will not emerge from the equations because phonons are soliton 
solutions.  Soliton solutions require a nonlinear medium which the present 
formulations of the acoustics do not represent (by choice because they cannot 
solve the nonlinear formulated equation).  Yes, you can find singularities in 
the solutions of the linear formulations and say that's where the phonons must 
lie - but it is only an approximate guess ("thar be dragons").

JonesBeene wrote: 
The beat frequency they were after  was in the THz range and this was  in order 
to fit Hagelstein’s theory of optical phonons … and yes - small gain was seen. 
However, in the  earlier similar work without beat frequencies – single laser 
only - much higher gain (order of magnitude more) has been reported by 
Letts/Cravens.
The reproducibility was apparently better in the later experiments -  but I  do 
not think the lower  result with the beat frequency is leading anywhere.
From: H LV 
Beat frequencies of two lasers irradiating a surface appear in   
_Stimulation of Optical Phonons in Deuterated Palladium_ by Dennis Letts and 
Peter Hagelstein 
https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LettsDstimulatio.pdf
 
 

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Bob Higgins]

Laser stimulation of LENR cells is an interesting subject.  These
experiments can probe the underlying mechanisms of LENR itself.  One of the
things that has not been characterized in the laser stimulation studies is
the sideband noise of the lasers.  All oscillators exhibit sideband noise.
Oscillators are nonlinear electronic/electro-optical circuits.  Because of
the internal high Q cavity, the intensity of the oscillation is Q times
higher than the output of the oscillator/laser.  This oscillator
nonlinearity causes the noise at baseband to beat up to form sidebands
around the oscillator primary output.  Also, any noise or modulation of the
cavity beats to baseband.  This means that for a 400 THz red laser, there
could easily be 8-15 THz sideband energy that will mix with the laser's
main component producing 8-15 THz baseband excitation.

So, a single laser excitation is not necessarily a pure 400 THz excitation
- it could directly excite 8-15 THz phonons with its sidebands.

The dual laser experiment is important because it provides a controlled
frequency of THz beat excitation.  The LENR output was found to be
triggered only by specific frequencies of the beat signal that happened to
correspond to phonon excitation.

I don't think the phonon correspondence is air-tight because no one
apparently calculates true phonon solutions for the material.  If you look
at the acoustic propagation formulation, they begin by expanding the
nonlinear Young's modulus in a series.  Then they throw away the nonlinear
terms of the series and use a linear representation of the Young's
modulus.  Because of this, true phonon solutions will not emerge from the
equations because phonons are soliton solutions.  Soliton solutions
*require* a nonlinear medium which the present formulations of the
acoustics do not represent (by choice because they cannot solve the
nonlinear formulated equation).  Yes, you can find singularities in the
solutions of the linear formulations and say that's where the phonons must
lie - but it is only an approximate guess ("thar be dragons").

On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 1:21 PM JonesBeene  wrote:

>
>
> The beat frequency they were after  was in the THz range and this was  in
> order to fit Hagelstein’s theory of optical phonons –
>
>
>
> … and yes - small gain was seen.
>
>
>
> However, in the  earlier similar work without beat frequencies – single
> laser only - much higher gain (order of magnitude more) has been reported
> by Letts/Cravens.
>
>
>
> The reproducibility was apparently better in the later experiments -  but
> I  do not think the lower  result with the beat frequency is leading
> anywhere.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *H LV 
>
>
>
> Beat frequencies of two lasers irradiating a surface appear in
>
> _Stimulation of Optical Phonons in Deuterated Palladium_ by Dennis Letts
> and Peter Hagelstein
>
> https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LettsDstimulatio.pdf
>
>
>
> Harry
>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Jones Beene]

   AlanG wrote:  
 
  > Recent progress in THz lasers has made the heterodyne laser technique moot:
 
 https://phys.org/news/2020-06-breakthrough-multi-watt-terahertz-lasers.html
 
 
 
Have you been able to buy one?

  

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[AlanG]

Recent progress in THz lasers has made the heterodyne laser technique moot:

https://phys.org/news/2020-06-breakthrough-multi-watt-terahertz-lasers.html


On 10/13/2020 12:21 PM, JonesBeene wrote:


The beat frequency they were after  was in the THz range and this was 
 in order to fit Hagelstein’s theory of optical phonons –


… and yes - small gain was seen.

However, in the  earlier similar work without beat frequencies – 
single laser only - much higher gain (order of magnitude more) has 
been reported by Letts/Cravens.


The reproducibility was apparently better in the later experiments - 
 but I  do not think the lower  result with the beat frequency is 
leading anywhere.


*From: *H LV 

Beat frequencies of two lasers irradiating a surface appear in

_Stimulation of Optical Phonons in Deuterated Palladium_ by Dennis 
Letts and Peter Hagelstein


https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LettsDstimulatio.pdf

Harry

RE: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[JonesBeene]

The beat frequency they were after  was in the THz range and this was  in order 
to fit Hagelstein’s theory of optical phonons – 

… and yes - small gain was seen.

However, in the  earlier similar work without beat frequencies – single laser 
only - much higher gain (order of magnitude more) has been reported by 
Letts/Cravens.

The reproducibility was apparently better in the later experiments -  but I  do 
not think the lower  result with the beat frequency is leading anywhere.



From: H LV

Beat frequencies of two lasers irradiating a surface appear in   
_Stimulation of Optical Phonons in Deuterated Palladium_ by Dennis Letts and 
Peter Hagelstein 
https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LettsDstimulatio.pdf

Harry

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[H LV]

Beat frequencies of two lasers irradiating a surface appear in
_Stimulation of Optical Phonons in Deuterated Palladium_ by Dennis Letts
and Peter Hagelstein
https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LettsDstimulatio.pdf

Harry

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 11:20 PM H LV  wrote:

> I wonder if quanta are made from beat frequencies:
>
> hf  = h|f1- f2|
>
> where  |f1- f2|  is the absolute value of the difference between the
> frequencies of two interfering *classical* vibrations.
>
> Perhaps ordinarily the existence of the other frequencies produce no
> observable effects but under special circumstances
> they do.
>
> What I am proposing is related to the phenomena of quantum beats but
> quantum beats involve the interference of two quanta or photons rather than
> trying to explain why quanta exist.
>
> This article gives a history of the subject and interestingly the
> existence of quantum beats has often been denied because semi-classical
> quantum theory says they are impossible but quantum electrodynamics does
> predict them.
> https://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/articles/quantum.beats.pdf
>
> BTW the beat concept also played a role in thought of Louis de Broglie.
>
> Harry
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 3:16 PM JonesBeene  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Yes. For instance, if your expectation is based on emission from  a
>> stationary emitter – then  “ rotational superradiance” can alter and
>>  concentrate radiation from around the equator of the rapidly spinning
>> emitter while the polar emission will be subradiant. No gain – simply a
>> shift.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The appearance of higher amplitude sound waves could seem, at first, like
>> a path to net gain.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dicke "superradiance is involved as well as Fermi-Pasta-Ulam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi%E2%80%93Pasta%E2%80%93Ulam%E2%80%93Tsingou_problem
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Could this mean that under the right conditions a body could
>> unexpectedly radiate more of its energy in the infrared region?
>>
>>
>>
>> Harry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> H LV wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Acoustic demonstration of beats
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYeV2Wq82fw
>>
>>
>>
>> This is not mentioned in the video but beats also arise and persist in a
>> driven oscillator when no damping force is present. This happens because
>> the driver`s frequency does not match the natural frequency of the
>> oscillator. Beats will also initially appear in a driven oscillator when a
>> damping force is present but they will fade away quickly.
>>
>>
>>
>> Harry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[H LV]

I wonder if quanta are made from beat frequencies:

hf  = h|f1- f2|

where  |f1- f2|  is the absolute value of the difference between the
frequencies of two interfering *classical* vibrations.

Perhaps ordinarily the existence of the other frequencies produce no
observable effects but under special circumstances
they do.

What I am proposing is related to the phenomena of quantum beats but
quantum beats involve the interference of two quanta or photons rather than
trying to explain why quanta exist.

This article gives a history of the subject and interestingly the existence
of quantum beats has often been denied because semi-classical quantum
theory says they are impossible but quantum electrodynamics does predict
them.
https://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/articles/quantum.beats.pdf

BTW the beat concept also played a role in thought of Louis de Broglie.

Harry

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 3:16 PM JonesBeene  wrote:

>
>
> Yes. For instance, if your expectation is based on emission from  a
> stationary emitter – then  “ rotational superradiance” can alter and
>  concentrate radiation from around the equator of the rapidly spinning
> emitter while the polar emission will be subradiant. No gain – simply a
> shift.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The appearance of higher amplitude sound waves could seem, at first, like
> a path to net gain.
>
>
>
> Dicke "superradiance is involved as well as Fermi-Pasta-Ulam
>
>
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi%E2%80%93Pasta%E2%80%93Ulam%E2%80%93Tsingou_problem
>
>
>
>
>
> Could this mean that under the right conditions a body could
> unexpectedly radiate more of its energy in the infrared region?
>
>
>
> Harry
>
>
>
>
>
> H LV wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Acoustic demonstration of beats
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYeV2Wq82fw
>
>
>
> This is not mentioned in the video but beats also arise and persist in a
> driven oscillator when no damping force is present. This happens because
> the driver`s frequency does not match the natural frequency of the
> oscillator. Beats will also initially appear in a driven oscillator when a
> damping force is present but they will fade away quickly.
>
>
>
> Harry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

RE: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[JonesBeene]

Yes. For instance, if your expectation is based on emission from  a stationary 
emitter – then  “ rotational superradiance” can alter and  concentrate 
radiation from around the equator of the rapidly spinning emitter while the 
polar emission will be subradiant. No gain – simply a shift.



The appearance of higher amplitude sound waves could seem, at first, like a 
path to net gain.

Dicke "superradiance is involved as well as Fermi-Pasta-Ulam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi%E2%80%93Pasta%E2%80%93Ulam%E2%80%93Tsingou_problem


Could this mean that under the right conditions a body could unexpectedly 
radiate more of its energy in the infrared region?

Harry 


H LV wrote: 


Acoustic demonstration of beats
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYeV2Wq82fw

This is not mentioned in the video but beats also arise and persist in a driven 
oscillator when no damping force is present. This happens because the driver`s 
frequency does not match the natural frequency of the oscillator. Beats will 
also initially appear in a driven oscillator when a damping force is present 
but they will fade away quickly.

Harry

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[H LV]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 11:12 AM Jones Beene  wrote:

>
>
> The appearance of higher amplitude sound waves could seem, at first, like
> a path to net gain.
>
> Dicke "superradiance is involved as well as Fermi-Pasta-Ulam
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi%E2%80%93Pasta%E2%80%93Ulam%E2%80%93Tsingou_problem
>
>
Could this mean that under the right conditions a body could
unexpectedly radiate more of its energy in the infrared region?

Harry




>
> H LV wrote:
>
>
> Acoustic demonstration of beats
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYeV2Wq82fw
>
> This is not mentioned in the video but beats also arise and persist in a
> driven oscillator when no damping force is present. This happens because
> the driver`s frequency does not match the natural frequency of the
> oscillator. Beats will also initially appear in a driven oscillator when a
> damping force is present but they will fade away quickly.
>
> Harry
>
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[Jones Beene]

 

The appearance of higher amplitude sound waves could seem, at first, like a 
path to net gain.
Dicke "superradiance is involved as well as Fermi-Pasta-Ulam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi%E2%80%93Pasta%E2%80%93Ulam%E2%80%93Tsingou_problem

H LV wrote:  
 
Acoustic demonstration of beats
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYeV2Wq82fw

This is not mentioned in the video but beats also arise and persist in a driven 
oscillator when no damping force is present. This happens because the driver`s 
frequency does not match the natural frequency of the oscillator. Beats will 
also initially appear in a driven oscillator when a damping force is present 
but they will fade away quickly.
Harry


  

[Vo]:Acoustic demonstration of beats

[H LV]

Acoustic demonstration of beats
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYeV2Wq82fw

This is not mentioned in the video but beats also arise and persist in a
driven oscillator when no damping force is present. This happens because
the driver`s frequency does not match the natural frequency of the
oscillator. Beats will also initially appear in a driven oscillator when a
damping force is present but they will fade away quickly.

Harry