Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
At 08:38 PM 8/10/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Baloney. The courts have ruled that a Natural Born US citizen is one where both parents are US Citizens and born in US soil. And here you are elevating yourself to a position higher than the courts. You can not throw away court decisions you don't like. That is anarchy. Jojo, a little lesson in logic. The proposition that A is B does not negate that C may also be B. Someone with both parents who are U.S. Citizens are natural born U.S. citizens. However, this does not tell us what the situation is with the other cases. You are claiming that the courts have ruled only with respect to the first case. You have not pointed to any case ruling on the relevant other cases. Specifically, here, the most relevant question is whether or not a person born in the United States or U.S. territories, of a U.S. citizen parent and a non-citizen parent, which is the case with Obama, is a natural born citizen. Any case on that, Jojo? My understanding is that there have been cases, and they have not gone as you have claimed, certainly not after the 14th amendment was passed. to quote it: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. This covers natural born with the first category. Naturalized is the excluded category. Naturalized citizens cannot become the President. People born in the United States (i.e., subject to U.S. jurisdiction at birth) are citizens by right of birth, and natural born citizen has never meant, since that amendment, anything but that. You are confidently asserting that there are contrary cases, the courts have ruled. Okay, what cases? Put up, or, more likely, given how you are trending, shut up. You know, I don't even read you verbose essays anymore. I grow tired of the lies, the misinformed opinions, and the blatant propaganda masquerading as informed opinion. You have succeeded in doing one thing. You have succeeded in wearing me down with your useless words. So maybe the time has not been entirely wasted. So, I'll let you have the last word. Anyone who listens to you deserve to have the same cranial enema that you apparently are in serious need of. Someone who believes what you write is in even more serious trouble Make us all happy, perhaps your only good deed here. Go away. I will say that I've learned a lot in the last couple of days. I really had no idea how crazy the birthers were. Jojo's arguments about the odds against random mutations driving speciation were at least, old arguments, not totally wing-nut, just erroneous. But he went totally off the deep end, not only about the birth certificate issue, but with the constant use of contemptuous names, like bambi. All the while pretending to be a Christian. I don't believe it. I work closely with real Christians, they are not responsible for Jojo any more than I'm responsible for Obama bin Laden.
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Hate speech is when people imply birthers are clueless. Hate speech is when people call those who believe in Intelligent Design uninformed. Hate speech is when people make fun of what people believe. Calling bambi a criminal is not hate speech, since it is the truth. Presenting Evidence for Intelligent Design is not hate speech. Asking for evidence from bambi regarding his vault Birth Certificate is not hate speech. Calling Islam a hateful religion is NOT hate speech as it is the truth. You may call anything hate speech but that does not make it true. But I am tired of this. You may have the last word. I will not be posting this forum anymore. You may celebrate. You win. Go ahead and destroy this fine forum with your off-topic posts just to gab with friends. Jojo - Original Message - From: Eric Walker To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: If you want attacks to stop, then call for moderation in this forum from the people who are most guilty. Off-topic posts are destroying this forum; and believe me, I am the last person who wants that to happen. The thread on Barack Obama has bordered on hate speech. You're trying to change this forum into something else in order to make a personal point. You should stop. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:11 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** But I am tired of this. You may have the last word. I will not be posting this forum anymore. You may celebrate. You win. Go ahead and destroy this fine forum with your off-topic posts just to gab with friends. Jojo, the fact that you've succeeded in getting this far is an indication that people like you. But you need to be protected from yourself. Before you started trying to make this point your occasional posts were interesting. Stop being a troll and everything will be good. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
At 08:31 PM 8/10/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: He imprisoned a decorated American Colonel soldier because he did not want to reveal his Vault BC. Okay, here is what Jojo is talking about: http://www.stripes.com/news/birther-sentenced-to-six-months-in-prison-kicked-out-of-army-1.128924 This is truly a sad case, but Obama did not imprison the fellow. A military court did, and the colonel acknowledged that what he did was wrong. Jojo, how about you send this guy the money he lost by standing for what you believe? It was people like you who egged him on. http://www.terrylakinactionfund.com/ There you go, Jojo. Try to make up, at least a bit, for the damage you did. I did find some agreement with Joj's position. In Pravda: http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/15-06-2012/121397-barack_obama_prison-0/ On the other hand, in the matter of legal opinion, the view that Jojo described as just my opinion seems to have been the opinion of every court which has considered the issue, and of academics and lawyers, with hardly any exception. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born-citizen_clause I know that Wikipedia articles might not be complete, but ... It's looking like Jojo has simply been lying.
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy -I will not..
Thank you, thank you, thank you. Ol' Bab On 8/11/2012 2:11 AM, Jojo Jaro wrote: But I am tired of this. You may have the last word. I will not be posting this forum anymore. You may celebrate. You win. Go ahead and destroy this fine forum with your off-topic posts just to gab with friends. Jojo
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy -I will not..
JoJo, I think you add something to this forum for your technical ability. I have no comment on the rest. On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 11:16 AM, David L Babcock ol...@rochester.rr.comwrote: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Ol' Bab On 8/11/2012 2:11 AM, Jojo Jaro wrote: But I am tired of this. You may have the last word. I will not be posting this forum anymore. You may celebrate. You win. Go ahead and destroy this fine forum with your off-topic posts just to gab with friends. Jojo
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
If a large percentage of Politicians, Banker, Financier, etc., etc., either already has engaged in corrption and/or have a 10% chance they *would*,,, then Obama is 110% absolutely the most power/money-hungry bribing scheming corrupt Illegal illegitimateindividual (of the heard mentality kind) to ever serve as President and/or Comandeer Thief of this once proud, but truly gullible naive Country. Brainwash'em and/or say things they desperately want to hear, then take everything they own and/or eliminate them completely is the prime directive of most wannabe Ruling Dictators Now, with your help, we can Fundamentally destroy, err, uhh, I mean Transform America! . Vote for me, or else!!!, er, uhh, I mean, or else you'll just end up with the same old politicians that only continue to get wealthier, while all you poor suckers get poorer.Now, we can share the wealth, and make me the Richest Ruler Ever!!!,,, err, uhh, I mean make this Country More Prosperous Than Ever! Thank you!!! It's about time, because we've all worked so hard over the years to get to this point, and there ain't no going back now,,, well, at least not until after the total collapse of civilization. There are many questions about Obama's past. /HTML
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
At 08:40 PM 8/9/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Weapons-grade Balonium Everyone with half a brain cell knows that what he released was faked. But I guess I can forgive you because you don't have half a brain cell. Attempting to use my quarter-cell, I wasted an entire day researching the birther claims. Let's say that Jojo's position appears to be that anyone who agrees with the strong majority of experts and commentators is stupid. The evidence out there had me going for a short time. I found some stuff by Miss Tickle that seemed to show clear evidence of image alteration. I did suspect it, but, hey, it looked bad! So I checked it out further. Yes. I could see in the originals presented by Miss Tickle that the image was a jpeg and had been through lossy compression. I didn't know the specifics of this to be sure about the effect, but I did somewhat suspect that sections of the image, say the check boxes, were identical to other sections, at the pixel level, as being caused by the compression algorithm. I.e., one image of a box was repeated as being considered by the algorithm, as sufficiently identical to allow the transmission of a single image that is repeated. So the real story: the images released were compressed. Like, that was obvious from a quick glance. If you look at the text on the LFBC, you'll see a halo around the text. That's an artifact of compression. If the image were not compressed, those images would be huge. Compressing images is routine in web presentations. I don't know if an uncompressed scan is available. Ideally, it should be. Lossy compression was used, because it is more effective. It's also possible that the images were enhanced to improve legibility. But the real point is entirely missed. Legally, it's not the image that counts, it is the certification of the public official that the document is a true copy. If someone was taking such a certified document and altering it, presenting it publically, to obtain an advantage, that would probably be a felony, and one very easily established. To obtain a legal right, one would have to present the original signed and sealed document. I've been through this. Copies are completely inadequate, unless themselves certified under oath (and thus penalty of perjury). You can't get a passport, for example, by presenting an uncertified copy of a birth certificate. You need a certified copy, with the state seal and an original official signature. I saw all kinds of crazy reasons given why the LFBC must be a forgery. For example, there is another LFBC out there for the same hospital, a birth the next day or so. It's a standard old-time copy, the kind I've gotten many times when I've requested a copy of my birth certificate (from 1944, Los Angeles). It's a negative, there was a common method of making cheap copies before xerography, quasi-photographic. The recent copy provided by the state to Obama for release is xerographic, probably, or perhaps scanned and printed, on the green security paper. Again, I think I've seen copies like that. In addition, there is an issue of the serial numbers. There seems to be an assumption that births at the same hospital will necessarily be serialized in order of birth. Nope. It depends on exact procedures. I don't know the exact procedure, and even if I did, there would be no guarantee that this procedure was actually followed in 1961 in this particular case. Clerks do all kinds of irregular things, and all they really care about with the serial numbers is that no two birth certificates have the same number. Sequence is legally meaningless, so no major effort is put into it. Once you realize that the number on the certificate is not the sequence of birth, that the numbers are state-assigned and that births are coming in from many hospitals and other sources (not all babies are born in hospitals) and that registration of births can be substantially delayed, both within and without the law, the numbers really don't mean anything. The birthers are able to assert a huge pile of signs that the birth certificate(s) are bogus. These assertions are contradictory to each other. For example, the name of the hospital is claimed to be an anachronism, in one set of birther claims, while others show the twin births at the same hospital and allege the problem with serial number sequence, and still others claim that the twin birth certificates are themselves forgeries, because the mother was allegedly a communist, or something like that. Sane conservatives have long ago abandoned the birther myth. We are, here, not dealing with a sane conservative. We are dealing with a fanatic. You say that the Vault BC can not be obtained easily. You say they do not have procedures for getting the real Long Form Vault BC. You say this are not publicly accessible. That's been noted by the official in charge. However, there are also
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
At 08:42 PM 8/9/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Baloney. This is your opinion proffered as law. Nothing more than a bunch of BS. A Natural Born US citizen is one with both US citizen parents and born on US soil. Period. Stop the lies. That opinion was rejected more than a hundred years ago. There are some interesting legal issues here, but they are utterly of no practical consequence. The position that both parents must be US citizens is utterly without foundation, it's made up. The case of a U.S. Citizen mother and a non-citizen father, with the child born outside the U.S., is a marginal one and it's not clear how a court would decide. Does the law in effect in 1961 apply? If later law essentially defines natural born differently -- as it does --, does this reach back and define as natural born for purposes of the constitutional requirement, according to the current definition? Some statements I've seen of the current law imply that it is not retroactive, so if this is true, then Obama would not be a natural born citizen, since his mother was three months short of her 19th birthday, which is the age required under the old law for the birth to be automatic citizenship. Jojo seems to be requiring that the constitutional provision have some kind of original intepretation, but it's entirely unclear what that was. The original clause, from what I've seen, was inserted at the last minute and without explanation. What I've been asserting is what a U.S. court would be likely to decide, based on precedent. Jojo seems to belong to a fundamentalist school of law, that presumes that there is some constitutional law that exists separately from how the courts interpret it. And anyone who sides with the court's actual interpretation, as confirmed over, say, more than a century, is a liar. It's fanaticism, pure and simple. The marginal case is irrelevant, because Obama will be considered by any court, unless someone pulls a rabbit out of a hat, as being born in the U.S., specifically in Hawaii, in 1961. It's established by the required documentation, and anyone who thinks that the courts will disregard the documentation, absent a clear showing of fraud, is seriously deluded. The U.S. Supreme Court has, to my chagrin, made decisions that were motivated by results rather than the facts and law and precedent in a case, but a decision removing a sitting President based on what has been alleged is far, far worse than anything I've ever seen them do. Even if it were actually shown that Obama were born in Kenya, for example, the Court would be highly likely to refuse the case, citing res judicata, that the matter was decided by Congress in certifying the election results. Congress has the right -- and responsibility -- to consider eligibility. Congress could also impeach, if there was Presidential misbehavior involved, and forging documents would probably be considered misbehavior. That is a reason why the forgery is exrremely unlikely. It's difficult to imagine anything that might be on the document that would be worth risking his presidency over. People have claimed that the father might be different, and that he couldn't stand the heat of that. Highly unlikely, folks, even if it were true. (On the other hand, I'd have thought that a sitting President was constitutionally protected from prosecution, and the Court, not so long ago, allowed a sitting president to be thoroughly harassed over matters that were entirely distracting from the business of the Presidency.) Notice how the birther claims are essentially all over the map. What's consistent about them is that there is something wrong. There usually is, if you look hard enough. That is, you can always find something that *looks wrong.* It just takes persistence. Look at what I found about the long form. All kinds of ridiculous claims, presented as if they established some kind of strong suspicion of wrong. And nothing more there than the kinds of oddities that commonly occur.
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
I grow tired of reading your verbose essays of YOUR opinion as if you're an expert. Are you a Software Architect that knows how lousy compression works. Do you know the lousy algortihm intimately enough to say what the artifacts are? I have an MS in Computer Science and I don't even intimately know the algorithm for lousy jpg compression; but I can tell your expert opinion below consists of nothing more than Highly Enriched Weapons Grade Balonium. Over a dozen document experts, software experts and other experts have said the BC presented to us was fake; and here you are thinking you are smarter than everybody. Typical Arrogance. BUT, just answer why Bambi has not allowed his Vault BC to be seen. He can end this Birther movement and nip it at the roots if he did so. Why hasn't he done so? When somebody is going to great lengths that Bambi is going to, somebody is hiding something. Something that is criminal. For me, it's no longer about the BC, it about obstruction of Justice. I remember one former president having to resign due to an offense much more minor than what Bambi is doing now. He imprisoned a decorated American Colonel soldier because he did not want to reveal his Vault BC. Such actions are treasonous. And if you think that is OK, then you are treasonous. You are working for the destruction of America and change it to your way of life. Maybe, both your actions shouldn't surprise me at all as I know both of your backgrounds. Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 5:03 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy At 08:40 PM 8/9/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Weapons-grade Balonium Everyone with half a brain cell knows that what he released was faked. But I guess I can forgive you because you don't have half a brain cell. Attempting to use my quarter-cell, I wasted an entire day researching the birther claims. Let's say that Jojo's position appears to be that anyone who agrees with the strong majority of experts and commentators is stupid. The evidence out there had me going for a short time. I found some stuff by Miss Tickle that seemed to show clear evidence of image alteration. I did suspect it, but, hey, it looked bad! So I checked it out further. Yes. I could see in the originals presented by Miss Tickle that the image was a jpeg and had been through lossy compression. I didn't know the specifics of this to be sure about the effect, but I did somewhat suspect that sections of the image, say the check boxes, were identical to other sections, at the pixel level, as being caused by the compression algorithm. I.e., one image of a box was repeated as being considered by the algorithm, as sufficiently identical to allow the transmission of a single image that is repeated. So the real story: the images released were compressed. Like, that was obvious from a quick glance. If you look at the text on the LFBC, you'll see a halo around the text. That's an artifact of compression. If the image were not compressed, those images would be huge. Compressing images is routine in web presentations. I don't know if an uncompressed scan is available. Ideally, it should be. Lossy compression was used, because it is more effective. It's also possible that the images were enhanced to improve legibility. But the real point is entirely missed. Legally, it's not the image that counts, it is the certification of the public official that the document is a true copy. If someone was taking such a certified document and altering it, presenting it publically, to obtain an advantage, that would probably be a felony, and one very easily established. To obtain a legal right, one would have to present the original signed and sealed document. I've been through this. Copies are completely inadequate, unless themselves certified under oath (and thus penalty of perjury). You can't get a passport, for example, by presenting an uncertified copy of a birth certificate. You need a certified copy, with the state seal and an original official signature. I saw all kinds of crazy reasons given why the LFBC must be a forgery. For example, there is another LFBC out there for the same hospital, a birth the next day or so. It's a standard old-time copy, the kind I've gotten many times when I've requested a copy of my birth certificate (from 1944, Los Angeles). It's a negative, there was a common method of making cheap copies before xerography, quasi-photographic. The recent copy provided by the state to Obama for release is xerographic, probably, or perhaps scanned and printed, on the green security paper. Again, I think I've seen copies like that. In addition, there is an issue of the serial numbers. There seems to be an assumption that births at the same hospital will necessarily be serialized in order of birth. Nope
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Baloney. The courts have ruled that a Natural Born US citizen is one where both parents are US Citizens and born in US soil. And here you are elevating yourself to a position higher than the courts. You can not throw away court decisions you don't like. That is anarchy. You know, I don't even read you verbose essays anymore. I grow tired of the lies, the misinformed opinions, and the blatant propaganda masquerading as informed opinion. You have succeeded in doing one thing. You have succeeded in wearing me down with your useless words. So, I'll let you have the last word. Anyone who listens to you deserve to have the same cranial enema that you apparently are in serious need of. Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 5:23 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy At 08:42 PM 8/9/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Baloney. This is your opinion proffered as law. Nothing more than a bunch of BS. A Natural Born US citizen is one with both US citizen parents and born on US soil. Period. Stop the lies. That opinion was rejected more than a hundred years ago. There are some interesting legal issues here, but they are utterly of no practical consequence. The position that both parents must be US citizens is utterly without foundation, it's made up. The case of a U.S. Citizen mother and a non-citizen father, with the child born outside the U.S., is a marginal one and it's not clear how a court would decide. Does the law in effect in 1961 apply? If later law essentially defines natural born differently -- as it does --, does this reach back and define as natural born for purposes of the constitutional requirement, according to the current definition? Some statements I've seen of the current law imply that it is not retroactive, so if this is true, then Obama would not be a natural born citizen, since his mother was three months short of her 19th birthday, which is the age required under the old law for the birth to be automatic citizenship. Jojo seems to be requiring that the constitutional provision have some kind of original intepretation, but it's entirely unclear what that was. The original clause, from what I've seen, was inserted at the last minute and without explanation. What I've been asserting is what a U.S. court would be likely to decide, based on precedent. Jojo seems to belong to a fundamentalist school of law, that presumes that there is some constitutional law that exists separately from how the courts interpret it. And anyone who sides with the court's actual interpretation, as confirmed over, say, more than a century, is a liar. It's fanaticism, pure and simple. The marginal case is irrelevant, because Obama will be considered by any court, unless someone pulls a rabbit out of a hat, as being born in the U.S., specifically in Hawaii, in 1961. It's established by the required documentation, and anyone who thinks that the courts will disregard the documentation, absent a clear showing of fraud, is seriously deluded. The U.S. Supreme Court has, to my chagrin, made decisions that were motivated by results rather than the facts and law and precedent in a case, but a decision removing a sitting President based on what has been alleged is far, far worse than anything I've ever seen them do. Even if it were actually shown that Obama were born in Kenya, for example, the Court would be highly likely to refuse the case, citing res judicata, that the matter was decided by Congress in certifying the election results. Congress has the right -- and responsibility -- to consider eligibility. Congress could also impeach, if there was Presidential misbehavior involved, and forging documents would probably be considered misbehavior. That is a reason why the forgery is exrremely unlikely. It's difficult to imagine anything that might be on the document that would be worth risking his presidency over. People have claimed that the father might be different, and that he couldn't stand the heat of that. Highly unlikely, folks, even if it were true. (On the other hand, I'd have thought that a sitting President was constitutionally protected from prosecution, and the Court, not so long ago, allowed a sitting president to be thoroughly harassed over matters that were entirely distracting from the business of the Presidency.) Notice how the birther claims are essentially all over the map. What's consistent about them is that there is something wrong. There usually is, if you look hard enough. That is, you can always find something that *looks wrong.* It just takes persistence. Look at what I found about the long form. All kinds of ridiculous claims, presented as if they established some kind of strong suspicion of wrong. And nothing more there than the kinds of oddities
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
At 08:31 PM 8/10/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: I grow tired of reading your verbose essays of YOUR opinion as if you're an expert. Are you a Software Architect that knows how lousy compression works. Well, I've merely worked with compression algorithms for, what, about thirty years. No, I'm not an expert. I'm just someone not snowed by idiots like you. Not that anyone here is being snowed by you. Do you know the lousy algortihm intimately enough to say what the artifacts are? Yes. They are obvious to anyone who has worked with compressed image files. I have an MS in Computer Science and I don't even intimately know the algorithm for lousy jpg compression; There are many different algorithms, but the basic concept involves recognizing repeated patterns. With a non-lossy algorithm, you only allow compression through exact repeats. A zipfile is that. But image files, especially JPEGS, can be highly lossy. You have an MS in Computer Science and don't know this stuff? Oh, intimately. I don't know it intimately, but I know enough to recognize baloney, and many of the birther claims about the PDF files are just that. but I can tell your expert opinion below consists of nothing more than Highly Enriched Weapons Grade Balonium. Weapons grade. Thanks. Over a dozen document experts, software experts and other experts have said the BC presented to us was fake; and here you are thinking you are smarter than everybody. Typical Arrogance. Biased sample, Jojo. You are only selecting the experts you agree with. There are *many* experts who have opined the opposite of your position. Bottom line, Jojo. Prove it. It's all irrelevant if nobody actually takes this to court. Go ahead, put your money together and waste it on this. I'll be happy, because that's just so much less money to be spent on real mischief. I'm not smarter than everybody. As I mentioned, one of the experts had me going for a bit. I did suspect something was off, but wasn't sure. And then what I found, searching for commentary on that expert jogged my memory. Yes. It's obvious. Lossy compression works by recognizing *approximate* patterns and replacing them with a single version, which is then repeated. I pointed to a higher-resolution copy that hasn't been compressed in that way. It was still available as JPEG and you can see some JPEG artifacts in the colors, in particular, but it's much better and the supposed proofs of alteration aren't there. The remaining interesting allegation is the showing of various versions of letters. To me, the letters look as the same font, and I don't see being done what one would sensibly and scientifically do: examine the variation in type patterns of many documents; what has been shown is easily artifact of two things: various levels of impact from the keys, ribbon differences, incomplete ink transfer, and digitisation variations. What is done is not scientific, it's on the level of gee, this looks weird. What is weird? How much variation is *normal*? I could do that work, but, frankly, I consider that the whole topic is a waste of time. I've already wasted far too much time on this. I did look, at everything you pointed to. You struck out, Jojo. You had your chance. BUT, just answer why Bambi has not allowed his Vault BC to be seen. It's been seen. The Vault BC, by the way, is legally unnecessary. The critical information is on the short form that was released, and if Obama has ever applied for a passport -- and he has -- he had to present one of those. Not some copy, a state-certified original. He can end this Birther movement and nip it at the roots if he did so. It's been demonstrated, quite well, that birthers like you will never give up. The release of the long form had long been demanded on the same basis. Note: if the long form document is a forgery, what's important about it. The excuse for the whole flap has been the question of eligibility, and the short form has all that is needed to know about that. The basis now being asserted for a problem is that supposedly Obama had something to hide, something so embarrassing that he'd risk impeachment to hide it. It's all fishing, and has gone way beyond merely silly. It's looney-tune wacko. Why hasn't he done so? When somebody is going to great lengths that Bambi is going to, somebody is hiding something. Something that is criminal. For me, it's no longer about the BC, it about obstruction of Justice. I remember one former president having to resign due to an offense much more minor than what Bambi is doing now. He imprisoned a decorated American Colonel soldier because he did not want to reveal his Vault BC. Such actions are treasonous. And if you think that is OK, then you are treasonous. You are working for the destruction of America and change it to your way of life. Maybe, both your actions shouldn't surprise me at all as I know both of your backgrounds.
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** If you want attacks to stop, then call for moderation in this forum from the people who are most guilty. Off-topic posts are destroying this forum; and believe me, I am the last person who wants that to happen. The thread on Barack Obama has bordered on hate speech. You're trying to change this forum into something else in order to make a personal point. You should stop. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
is a natural-born citizen, unless they are not a citizen at all. Jaro Jaro confuses legal recognition with the underlying fact, as if U.S. citizen were a natural fact instead of a legal intepretation. A child of one US citizen *has the right of citizenship* provided that the situation meets certain requirements, see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States_nationality_lawoldid=505832579#Birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen Jojo Jaro fails to convince with his confident pronouncements of his opinions as fact. Now, I'm an American by birth and affiliation, and, I must say, I'm offended by the reference to the President of the United States as Bambi. It makes it clear that this isn't about fact and law, it's about hatred and contempt. Pretty rich for a Christian. At 07:29 PM 8/8/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: That is incorrect Ron. A child of one US citizen does not automatically become a US citizen. He has to choose which parent's citizenship he wants when he reaches 21. Besides, Stanley Ann Dunham was too young to have conferred US citizenship to Bambi when he was born. And a Dual Citizen is classified automatically as NOT a Natural-Born US Citizen. A child born out of 2 US citizens but born out of US soil, can be a US citizen but not a Natural-Born US Citizen A child born in US soil, but to non-US citizens, may become a US citizen but not a Natural-Born US Citizen. A child born in US soil, but to only 1 US citizen parent, must choose which citizenship he wants when he reaches 21. He may choose both and become a Dual Citizen, but he is certainly NOT a Natural-Born US citizen. But mere US citizenship does not qualify one to be president. He has to be Natural-Born US citizen. Which means a child of 2 US citizens and born on US soil. One theory says that a Natural Born US Citizen is one wherein he does not have to take any special action to get his US citizenship. If Bambi has to choose US Citizenship, then he is automatically not a Natural-Born US citizen. And this would be the case with Bambi, because he was an Indonesian Citizen when he was a child. But since, he was not yet 21 at that time, he did not have to make a specific choice. When he reached 21, he should have made that choice. If he did not, then he is still an Illegal Alien in this country. But none of this can be resolved because criminal-in-chief has a gag order on all agencies and private entities to keep his records secret. Question is, WHY? Jojo - Original Message - From: Ron Wormus prot...@frii.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 2:28 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy As far as I know a child born to a US citizen is automatically also a citizen regardless of location of birth. I have grand daughters born in Switzerland who have dual citizenship. Ron --On Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:31 PM -0700 MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Good debate! This is what freedom of speech is all about His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason. Agreed. His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here), so it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning to the USA *permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be a U.S. Citizen. If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck would I'm sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being POTUS someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the in case he wanted to become President someday argument there is reason enough by just coming here. If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child to be a US citizen? I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments and evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far perhaps after the next election we'll find out? Or not -Mark From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Straw Man argument. First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all births in the newspaper. During that time, anyone can report a birth to Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii. Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth. Funny though cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents. Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president. That's a straw man. His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
It's long overdue that someone with a few brain cells a spine, and is fully supported by *individualism* and/or *Real* people who believe in *not* living elbow to elbow like pack rats,,, make an real earnest effort to *revise* policies and/or * Laws* regarding the influx of people that (don't) think the only way to a successful future is to breed in overwhelming numbers. Plus, the only way we can protect what we have from being completely destroyed and/or devoured will require *us* of whom tend to legally rightfully occupy a Country, to be vigilent in keeping a relatively sharp eye out *before* the enmassing hoard is successful. If we don't, then we can soon look forward to an inevitable collapse of all that we now take for granted I don't think most of you want to find out first-hand what it's like to be eaten alive... but actually, now that I think about it, I've soemtimes wondered what different people thruout the world might taste like, if say, one might taste like chicken and maybe another like beef or pork?. Its just a thought, but maybe we need to start preparing for a change in our diets,,, and at the same time, saving the animals. I mean afterall, they've been treated very poorly, like *things* instead of living creatures in many of the populated areas of various so-called Countries. So, just a reminder... you are measured by how you tr(eat) your animals, otherwise you may just be one yourself. I thought that since his mother was an American citizen then he automatically was. Is this not the way it pans out? Does the location of birth outside of the USA make one a non citizen? Dave /HTML
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Despite your long long long essay; as usual, you failed to understand the issue correctly. The opinion you proffered below appeared to me to be from Wikipedia, and so I checked, and low and behold, you simply regurgitated the fine fine fine scholarship of wikipedia. No wonder you're confused. First, Congress is not tasked to intrepret the Constitution. It is not in their power to do so, and not their duty and obligation to do so. When Congress does make a pronouncement regarding any matter of interpretation of law, their pronouncement is simply an opinion and does not carry the weight as precedent. Unlike with the Judicial branch, whose decisions become precedent and law. We need to go to the Courts to determine the proper meaning and interpretation of the law. You can bitch all you want and show all you want that Congress has made that determination and your opinion means squat. In Shanks v. Dupont, Minor vs. Happersett, United States v. Wong Kim Ark, just to name a few cases; the Courts (including the Supreme Court) ruled that a Natural Born US Citizen is one born out of 2 US citizen parents and born in the land of their Parent's citizenship; that is, US soil. If one parent were a non-citizen, it is clear that the child has to take action at his 21st birthday to gain US Citizenship. His citizenship status before turning 21 is in Limbo. Hence, he is not considered to be a Natural Born US Citizen. You can obfuscate all you want; it is clear bambi is a usurper of Power that he is not qualified to assume. As for your other nonsensical opinions, it is clear that actions were taken to contest bambi's status even before the elections. Justice was denied and bambi assumed power. Even now, all court cases are denied on mere technicality. If peaceful resolution is not allowed by the Shadow Government Kabbal, a 2nd American Revolution is needed to throw off this corrupt and oppressive kabbal. Mark my words, Americans are a peace loving people, but they will not put up with this trampling of the Constitution for long. 70% of Americans believe that Bambi should come clean and present his real Vault Birth Certificate. It puzzles me why he is unwilling to do so. And all your BS arguments will not overcome this fact. Jojo PS. And by the way, Snoopes and Factcheck are not the entities tasked to authenticate official documents. LOL And I did not even know bambi was a muslim until after the election. I opposed him because he is unqualified. Period. Any pathetic attempt on your part to make this about race or religion is frankly idiotic. - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:34 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy The current Wikipedia article, which has been stable for at least a few weeks, seems quite good. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Natural-born-citizen_clauseoldid=503057261 Jojo is stating his personal or collective opinion as if it were established fact. From the article, from the Congressional Research Service: The weight of legal and historical authority indicates that the term natural born citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship by birth or at birth, either by being born in the United States and under its jurisdiction, even those born to alien parents; by being born abroad to U.S. citizen-parents; or by being born in other situations meeting legal requirements for U.S. citizenship at birth. Such term, however, would not include a person who was not a U.S. citizen by birth or at birth, and who was thus born an alien required to go through the legal process of naturalization to become a U.S. citizen.[1] There is no contrary legal authority of any weight. Attempting to challenge the Presidency through this means is almost certainly doomed. To accomplish it with Obama, a whole series of hurdles must be cleared. 1. Establish that the Hawaii Birth Certificate is fraudulent. A series of speculative how comes won't cut it. Mere mystery won't cut it. That birth certificate establishes the legal situation, until and unless it is *proven* to be fraudulent. Tough road to hoe. But people who generate lots of hot air can sometimes convince others, especially those looking for a reason to dump Obama, who makes some people uncomfortable. Maybe it's the cologne he uses. Nah, they haven't gotten that close to him (fortunately). Must be something about the way he looks. Or it's that he's a SOCIALIST COMMUNIST PINKO MUSLIM. Yeah, Muslim. That's it. Wants to force decent American women to wear those tents, even if it's hot. He just pretended to have Bin Laden taken out, Bin Laden has been taken to a Safe Place. Probably Area 51. Yeah, that's it. Desert. Bin Laden would love it there. 2. Show, in a binding legal process, that Obama
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Bambi's mother was a US citizen, although by the laws during that time, she was too young to confer US citizenship to bambi. But even if she could, that would only make Bambi a mere US citizen; not a Natural Born US Citizen. Many people are unaware of this salient requirement. To them a US citizen is qualified automatically to be POTUS. That is not what the Constitution says: In order for one to be qualifed, one needs to be a Natural Born US Citizen. Natural Born US Citizenship has a specific technical definition under our laws. You just can't make up your own rules and declare bambi to be Natural Born US citizen based on your opinion. The Shadow Government Kabbal is counting on the fact that Americans are either dumb or apathetic. They just don't know or they just don't care. Well, they just underestimated Americans, cause 70% are demanding that bambi comes clean and present his real Vault Birth Certificate. Jojo - Original Message - From: lorenhe...@aol.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:14 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy I thought that since his mother was an American citizen then he automatically was. Is this not the way it pans out? Does the location of birth outside of the USA make one a non citizen? Dave /HTML
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
There are many questions about Obama's past. It is an indisputable fact that the Long Form Birth Certificate posted on the whitehouse.gov web site manipulated in photoshop. The moron who created the PDF forgot to flatten all of the layers, so that anyone could go in an move important parts of the document around, including the registrar's stamp. What parts of the document are accurate, and why was it altered at all? The state of HI uses a number of weasel words to say he was born here without backing it up with an actual document. A number of explanations are possible-- when Obama was adopted by his Indonesian father, the birth certificate may have been modified or altered, as is often the case with adoptions. The actual BC may have been lost or destroyed. I personally doubt Obama was born in Kenya, but Obama is hiding something, or playing a strange game with millions of taxpayer and campaign dollars. There have been dozens of lawsuits claiming he may be ineligible that could be resolved (perhaps) with the presentation of a birth certificate. All fail due to lack of standing but still require hundreds of hours of court work. A US military doctor had questions and tried to assure himself that Obama was constitutionally eligible to hold office and ended up in Leavenworth... Poor judgement on his part, but again, easily solved had Obama not played hide-and-seek with his records. Of course, Jojo makes a good point that having dual citizenship at birth would make someone ineligible as Natural Born Citizen, which might explain O's reluctance to enter evidence into a court. The constitution was written so that the president could not be a commander from an invading country or have divided loyalties. As this author points out, the biggest question is Obama's story of attending Occidental where he was a self-admitted pot-smoking bad student.. how did he get in? Why does nobody remember him? Who paid for his college? Was he enrolled as a foreigner? What were his grades? http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/obama%E2%80%99s-college-classmate-the-obama-scandal-is-at-columbia/ Jed is not the only one who thinks that anyone who doesn't fawn over Obama is a racist. Let me remind everyone about how most conservatives also didn't like Carter, Clinton, and many were not fond of GW. We are equal opportunity bashers of inept leadership and are quick to eat our own. But Obama does have a long and sordid past with communists (Bill Ayres, Frank Marshal Davis) and was ranked the most liberal Senator. He is aligned with the Democratic Socialists of America and their offshoot, the New Party. This video is interesting, even if only some of the facts presented are true.. (The title is bogus, the tone silly, and it was created by an individual, rather than the media, who failed to vet him...) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-HqHSkYG-Y And a related one about the influential father figures in Obama's life. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOmzTLdr_m4 According to the odds makers, Obama will win the election easily. According to most polls, Obama is trailing slightly in the swing states. Trying to determine truth from fiction in Obama's narrative should be the job of the press and anyone who is interested in presidential history. But when valid concerns and uncomfortable facts are raised, the press is the first to scream dog whistle racism.. May we live in interesting times... - Brad
RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
At 01:28 PM 8/8/2012, Ron Wormus wrote: As far as I know a child born to a US citizen is automatically also a citizen regardless of location of birth. I have grand daughters born in Switzerland who have dual citizenship. As with anything, it depends on what you mean by citizen. Further, it is not clear that the Constitutional Rule is subject to modification by statute, but it's also obvious that the definition of U.S. has shifted because of later events. The rules for *being recognized* as a U.S. citizen by virtue of birth are a bit complicated, but they are only designed to rule out situations where it's not clear what would be equitable. I.e., a single citizen parent, with a non-citizen other parent, can create a marginal situation, and the rules are designed to require a showing that the single parent was not only a U.S. citizen, but had a real relationship with the U.S., by living here a certain minimum time, after 14 years of age. The number of years required changed. Presently, it is five years of residence in the U.S. by the citizen-parent before the birth, two of which must be after 14. Obama's mother would have satisfied that, she was 18. However, the law at the time of Obama's birth required 10 years total and five years after 14. Given that Obama's mother was 18 at his birth, if Obama was born outside the U.S., then he'd not have had citizenship by right of birth at that time. I'm sure this makes the birthers all hot and bothered. I don't know about the retroactive applicability of the new law. The Wikipedia article implies that it was not retroactive, which is a tad weird. But sometimes laws are weird. It's claimed that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii, but in Kenya. This creates a problem. I've bought foreign-born children into the U.S. You can't just saunter through customs with the kid. You have to show documents. In particular, you generally have to show a passport. To get a passport, you generally need a birth certificate. So if the birth certificate was forged, it would have to have been forged way back then, when this was a poor mother, not socially connected. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birther The Indonesian connection is completely irrelevant. Obama could have had some right to be an Indonesian citizen, but I very much doubt that his U.S. passport was surrendered or that any act took place that would revoke U.S. citizenship. It's been raised that anyone can get a birth certificate. Sure. I've done it, quite a few times. I delivered four of my first five children, at home. I filed the papers. They are generally to be filed by the one who attends the birth. The law generally requires that it be filed within so many days of the birth. I also worked with the Arizona Publich Health Department, because we were generally assisting parents to give birth at home, and their critical interest was that the births be registered, so we agreed to encourage the parents to register the births (and to inform the Health Department of births). For legal reasons, at that time, our trope was that the father, generally, actually delivered the baby. Sometimes so, sometimes not. You do what you have to do. Later, we were licensed and registration became a binding legal requirement. The point is that it's filed timely, generally. If that fails, it can be registered late, but it must still be signed by the persons affirming the facts. The long form Obama birth certificate was signed by a physician, presumably the attending physician, I can't read the signature, but this could easily be determined who it was. The certification shows filing on August 8, 1961, 4 days after the certified birth, August 4. That's normal. The information on the certificate about parents was certified by the mother's signature on August 7. This is all totally normal. There is other evidence of the birth at that time. See the Wikipedia article. The denial of that certificate is totally nuts, wishful thinking or smoke-screen. By the way, birth announcements in newspapers are also often based on information provided, usually from the parents, but grandparents could do it. What information like that shows is that the claim of Hawaiian birth existed immediately. Not later. In this case, though, it appears that the listings of births came from the Health Department. This is what happens when people believe that something is wrong and then go searching for it. They find facts to question or assert, creating a new story that satisfies their itch. As to the alleged goal of the grandparents to make Obama a citizen, sure. However, consider their position at the time. This would have required felonies, forging birth certificates is a serious crime. Most people couldn't pull it off. This theory requires that the pregnant mother travel to Kenya. And then come back with the baby, and a birth certificate would be needed for a passport to come back in. You also
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
All your eloquent words are futile until such time as you can answer one simple question. Why is bambi still hiding his real Vault Birth Certificate? It makes no sense to do so, unless one is hiding something. This controversy will end 1 second after bambi releases his vault BC. There is no need to spend millions of taxpayer money for this. There is no need for all your eloquent speculations and explanations. Just do it and be done with it. Why continue the hiding? Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 1:17 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy At 01:28 PM 8/8/2012, Ron Wormus wrote: As far as I know a child born to a US citizen is automatically also a citizen regardless of location of birth. I have grand daughters born in Switzerland who have dual citizenship. As with anything, it depends on what you mean by citizen. Further, it is not clear that the Constitutional Rule is subject to modification by statute, but it's also obvious that the definition of U.S. has shifted because of later events. The rules for *being recognized* as a U.S. citizen by virtue of birth are a bit complicated, but they are only designed to rule out situations where it's not clear what would be equitable. I.e., a single citizen parent, with a non-citizen other parent, can create a marginal situation, and the rules are designed to require a showing that the single parent was not only a U.S. citizen, but had a real relationship with the U.S., by living here a certain minimum time, after 14 years of age. The number of years required changed. Presently, it is five years of residence in the U.S. by the citizen-parent before the birth, two of which must be after 14. Obama's mother would have satisfied that, she was 18. However, the law at the time of Obama's birth required 10 years total and five years after 14. Given that Obama's mother was 18 at his birth, if Obama was born outside the U.S., then he'd not have had citizenship by right of birth at that time. I'm sure this makes the birthers all hot and bothered. I don't know about the retroactive applicability of the new law. The Wikipedia article implies that it was not retroactive, which is a tad weird. But sometimes laws are weird. It's claimed that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii, but in Kenya. This creates a problem. I've bought foreign-born children into the U.S. You can't just saunter through customs with the kid. You have to show documents. In particular, you generally have to show a passport. To get a passport, you generally need a birth certificate. So if the birth certificate was forged, it would have to have been forged way back then, when this was a poor mother, not socially connected. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birther The Indonesian connection is completely irrelevant. Obama could have had some right to be an Indonesian citizen, but I very much doubt that his U.S. passport was surrendered or that any act took place that would revoke U.S. citizenship. It's been raised that anyone can get a birth certificate. Sure. I've done it, quite a few times. I delivered four of my first five children, at home. I filed the papers. They are generally to be filed by the one who attends the birth. The law generally requires that it be filed within so many days of the birth. I also worked with the Arizona Publich Health Department, because we were generally assisting parents to give birth at home, and their critical interest was that the births be registered, so we agreed to encourage the parents to register the births (and to inform the Health Department of births). For legal reasons, at that time, our trope was that the father, generally, actually delivered the baby. Sometimes so, sometimes not. You do what you have to do. Later, we were licensed and registration became a binding legal requirement. The point is that it's filed timely, generally. If that fails, it can be registered late, but it must still be signed by the persons affirming the facts. The long form Obama birth certificate was signed by a physician, presumably the attending physician, I can't read the signature, but this could easily be determined who it was. The certification shows filing on August 8, 1961, 4 days after the certified birth, August 4. That's normal. The information on the certificate about parents was certified by the mother's signature on August 7. This is all totally normal. There is other evidence of the birth at that time. See the Wikipedia article. The denial of that certificate is totally nuts, wishful thinking or smoke-screen. By the way, birth announcements in newspapers are also often based on information provided, usually from the parents, but grandparents could do it. What information like that shows is that the claim of Hawaiian birth
RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Let's drop the political BS. We do not need it here. There are great things happening in Austin - this crap belittles it all.
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
At 11:39 AM 8/9/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: All your eloquent words are futile until such time as you can answer one simple question. Why is bambi still hiding his real Vault Birth Certificate? It makes no sense to do so, unless one is hiding something. This controversy will end 1 second after bambi releases his vault BC. There is no need to spend millions of taxpayer money for this. There is no need for all your eloquent speculations and explanations. Just do it and be done with it. Why continue the hiding? Uh, Obama long ago released the Long Form Birth Certificate. That's the original document signed by the mother and attending physician. There is no other vault certificate. The Hawaii Long Forms from then are kept in a bound volume. They are not publicly accessible. That, in fact, is why it took so long for Obama to release the Long Form. It took a special request and a special decision by the Health Department. You can't just request the Long Form, there is no procedure for it. You are asking a loaded question, Jojo, that assumes something is being hidden. What makes you so certain of that, such that you can ask such a question and not simply be a liar, liar, pants on fire? Do you imagine that Jesus loves liars and deceivers? All in a good cause? One test of the sincerity of faith is dedication to truth and honesty, regardless of implications, of reputation or face. The only other documents that would exist would be doctor's notes or notes taken by nurses. These are not birth certificates and they don't have legal force. They are used temporarily until the attending physicician -- or midwife or parent or other person, under unusual circumstances -- gets around to signing the thing. They are almost certainly long ago discarded. But they might exist, in old charts, if those are in an archive somewhere. Obama would not have access to them, not directly. But I suppose he could ask. Why should he? The signed, attested documents, executed under laws that would penalize false statements, are legally the strongest documents that exist. Old notes would not supersede them, because notes can be wrong and nobody has signed them as being true. I'm starting to doubt that Jojo is serious. This could merely be trolling.
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
qualified to be present. Bambi is a deer, and has no birth certificate. The Shadow Government Kabbal Kabal or Cabal. Spell it correcly. is counting on the fact that Americans are either dumb or apathetic. yeah. Both. They just don't know or they just don't care. Well, they just underestimated Americans, cause 70% are demanding that bambi comes clean and present his real Vault Birth Certificate. Now, Dave was not exactly correct. Substantially, if one has an American citizen mother, one is a natural born citizen (by right of birth), but there are exceptions. They have changed over the years. According to the law at the time of Obama's birth, his mother would have had to have resided in the U.S. for five years at some point after turning 14. Since she was three months shy of 19 at the time of the birth, Obama would not have been qualified as natural born under that law. The law was changed, it's now two years. Easily qualified. It's not clear that legislation that establishes citizenship rights can alter the meaning of the Constitutional provision. But a contrary opinion leads to even worse problems. Which law applies? I don't know and don't care, because Obama was born in Hawaii, that is legally certain at this point. Prove the documents are forgeries, with evidence that would stand up in court, or shut up. You just make yourself look like an idiot. If the documents are forgeries, apparently they are very old forgeries, accompanied by birth announcements in newspapers. Come on, Jojo, how long will you keep up this charade? Until the Day of Judgment? - Original Message - From: lorenhe...@aol.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:14 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy I thought that since his mother was an American citizen then he automatically was. Is this not the way it pans out? Does the location of birth outside of the USA make one a non citizen? Dave /HTML
RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
they added the requirement of being 'natural born' and for very specific reasons which have been explained already. That is the central issue at hand, and I will not go into it any further here, as I feel in this case one must decide for him/herself. Most have already decided and nothing will change their minds, however, for those who want to research this further, and feel that they understand the history and legal foundations as best as possible, I will suggest the following website: http://people.mags.net/tonchen/birthers.htm It is one of the most thoroughly researched websites which explanations the history, the court cases, and legal thinking on the issue... why do I not simply refer to a US SupCt case here? Because the SCOTUS has NOT ruled on the legal definition of 'natural born citizen'! Not yet anyway... read and decide for yourself. As an interesting side-story, I remember looking at an early draft of the Massachusetts Constitution, and it *specifically forbid attorneys from running for any elected office*. That clause never made it past a few drafts! I don't know what percentage of Congressmen and Senators are lawyers, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was well above 50%. If all the states had adopted that rule in their own Constitutions, I don't think we'd be in the mess we're in now... -Mark PS: Sorry Jones, but I felt compelled to respond. ;-) -Original Message- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 10:02 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Let's drop the political BS. We do not need it here. There are great things happening in Austin - this crap belittles it all.
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
At 11:08 AM 8/9/2012, ecat builder wrote: There are many questions about Obama's past. It is an indisputable fact that the Long Form Birth Certificate posted on the http://whitehouse.govwhitehouse.gov web site manipulated in photoshop. The moron who created the PDF forgot to flatten all of the layers, so that anyone could go in an move important parts of the document around, including the registrar's stamp. What parts of the document are accurate, and why was it altered at all? The state of HI uses a number of weasel words to say he was born here without backing it up with an actual document. No, the actual document was shown to the press. Printed on that special paper. The clumsiness with the PDF actually shows naivete, not sophisticated forgery, for sure. You don't think that the President could access some sophisticated forgery skills if needed. Look, anybody could have done better. People alter stuff to publish it. Happens all the time. I don't know the provenance of the images people are looking at, what they went through. But a visible change between that document and what is in the Hawaii book would be easily discoverable, a really stupid forgery, when the original exists and can be accessed with a court order. A number of explanations are possible-- when Obama was adopted by his Indonesian father, the birth certificate may have been modified or altered, as is often the case with adoptions. The actual BC may have been lost or destroyed. Modified in a PDF file? As is often the case with adoptions? No, this is ignorant. Birth certificates are not altered for adoptions. There are additional certificates that can be obtained, for various purposes, but they do not contain false information. They might merely conceal some information. The certificate that has been published is the long form, which is a signed and attested document, attested by, in this case, the mother and the attending physician. I personally doubt Obama was born in Kenya, but Obama is hiding something, or playing a strange game with millions of taxpayer and campaign dollars. There have been dozens of lawsuits claiming he may be ineligible that could be resolved (perhaps) with the presentation of a birth certificate. All fail due to lack of standing but still require hundreds of hours of court work. Sure. And who is responsible for that. Ecat builder, Obama released the long form. He had to go to special trouble to get that, the state did not want to issue it. (They don't want to have to dig through those archives.) It looks to me like the birthers have had some success in confusing people about this. A US military doctor had questions and tried to assure himself that Obama was constitutionally eligible to hold office and ended up in Leavenworth... Poor judgement on his part, but again, easily solved had Obama not played hide-and-seek with his records. The state certified the birth. That people doubted that is not the fault of the state, nor of Obama. The doctor, I'm quite sure, did not end up in Leavenworth merely because he tried to assure himself. Of course, Jojo makes a good point that having dual citizenship at birth would make someone ineligible as Natural Born Citizen, which might explain O's reluctance to enter evidence into a court. The constitution was written so that the president could not be a commander from an invading country or have divided loyalties. It's unclear why it was written the way it was. It was apparently a last-minute change. Dual citizenship does not disqualify one from being President. There is no precedent for that. It's something that voters can consider. As this author points out, the biggest question is Obama's story of attending Occidental where he was a self-admitted pot-smoking bad student.. how did he get in? Why does nobody remember him? Who paid for his college? Was he enrolled as a foreigner? What were his grades? http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/obama%E2%80%99s-college-classmate-the-obama-scandal-is-at-columbia/http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/obama%E2%80%99s-college-classmate-the-obama-scandal-is-at-columbia/ OMG. He admitted smoking pot? Now I really need to go out and campaign for him. He was a bad student? What a success story, then! Jed is not the only one who thinks that anyone who doesn't fawn over Obama is a racist. I haven't seen evidence for racism here. Just stupidity, which apparently can exist among racists and non-racists. Though most people are racist to one degree or other. That's quite another discussion. The older, highly permicious racism is mostly dead, afraid to show its face. But a more insidious racism still exists. If you don't understand it, it's because you'e white. That's a joke, though under the joke might be some truth. Let me remind everyone about how most conservatives also didn't like Carter, Clinton, and many were not fond of GW. We are equal opportunity
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Weapons-grade Balonium Everyone with half a brain cell knows that what he released was faked. But I guess I can forgive you because you don't have half a brain cell. You say that the Vault BC can not be obtained easily. You say they do not have procedures for getting the real Long Form Vault BC. You say this are not publicly accessible. You say there are no other Vault certificate Well, tell that to the Nordyke twins who were born within days of Bambi and they can show us their long form BC, which they obtained publicly, which they obtained easily within days of their request. Why doesn't bambi have something like the BC of the Nordyke twins. I suppose the Nordyke twins faked their long form BC to show to us; while bambi being a consumate muslim would not lie and hence his BC he posted was real. OK, whatever Jojo PS. I know for a fact that Jesus Christ does not like lying so I am not lying. What I do know is that allah (aka Satan) is a liar and the father of lies. That is why, you as an allah slave have no compunction at all about your blatant lies. That is why Bin Laden has no compunction in lying to kill people. (Remember, you started this religious attack. This is your third post with religious attacks. I never initiate a personal attack but I will give as good as I take.) - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 2:39 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy At 11:39 AM 8/9/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: All your eloquent words are futile until such time as you can answer one simple question. Why is bambi still hiding his real Vault Birth Certificate? It makes no sense to do so, unless one is hiding something. This controversy will end 1 second after bambi releases his vault BC. There is no need to spend millions of taxpayer money for this. There is no need for all your eloquent speculations and explanations. Just do it and be done with it. Why continue the hiding? Uh, Obama long ago released the Long Form Birth Certificate. That's the original document signed by the mother and attending physician. There is no other vault certificate. The Hawaii Long Forms from then are kept in a bound volume. They are not publicly accessible. That, in fact, is why it took so long for Obama to release the Long Form. It took a special request and a special decision by the Health Department. You can't just request the Long Form, there is no procedure for it. You are asking a loaded question, Jojo, that assumes something is being hidden. What makes you so certain of that, such that you can ask such a question and not simply be a liar, liar, pants on fire? Do you imagine that Jesus loves liars and deceivers? All in a good cause? One test of the sincerity of faith is dedication to truth and honesty, regardless of implications, of reputation or face. The only other documents that would exist would be doctor's notes or notes taken by nurses. These are not birth certificates and they don't have legal force. They are used temporarily until the attending physicician -- or midwife or parent or other person, under unusual circumstances -- gets around to signing the thing. They are almost certainly long ago discarded. But they might exist, in old charts, if those are in an archive somewhere. Obama would not have access to them, not directly. But I suppose he could ask. Why should he? The signed, attested documents, executed under laws that would penalize false statements, are legally the strongest documents that exist. Old notes would not supersede them, because notes can be wrong and nobody has signed them as being true. I'm starting to doubt that Jojo is serious. This could merely be trolling.
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Baloney. This is your opinion proffered as law. Nothing more than a bunch of BS. A Natural Born US citizen is one with both US citizen parents and born on US soil. Period. Stop the lies. Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:07 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy At 10:38 AM 8/9/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Bambi's mother was a US citizen, although by the laws during that time, she was too young to confer US citizenship to bambi. But even if she could, that would only make Bambi a mere US citizen; not a Natural Born US Citizen. This is made up. The bulk of interpretation of natural born US citizen is citizenship by right of birth, as distinct from later actions. That is, if the person can, merely by showing the circumstances of birth, establish citizenship, they are natural born. The provision, as interpreted, distinguishes between natural birth citizenship and naturalized or adopted citizenship. My two youngest daughters are U.S. citizens, but not by right of birth, it was through later adoption and legal admission into the U.S. That's not by right of birth. It is correct that if Obama had been born elsewhere, to his mother married to a British citizen, as he was at the time, he'd not have been a natural born citizen by the laws regarding citizenship at that time. He was born about three months too early, his mother was only 18, and had not lived in the U.S. for five years after age 14. Three months later, she had. This, however, is a complexity not contemplated in the Constitution and I would not consider the matter determined until it was litigated. It could be argued, indeed, that the Constitutional provision refers only to a very narrow definition of natural born, though this, itself, leads to some severe interpretive problems. I doubt a court would adopt that. So far, it hasn't, and natural born citizen has clearly meant anyone born in the U.S., citizenship by right of birth location, but also those whose parents are citizens, both parents, and it is only when it is only one parent that the rules get complicated. It's all moot. Obama was born in Hawaii, as a legal fact. Overturning that legal fact would be extremely difficult, and, so far, it looks like attempts to do it have been based on forged documents and pure innuendo and speculation. I got an email, for example, that claimed the hospital on the long form birth certificate didn't exist at the time of the birth. That demonstrates just how wrong one can be by doing a little internet searching and jumping to conclusions. Aha! Look at this! It says right here: Name of the Hospital Obama was supposedly born at should have been Kauikeolani Children's Hospital until 1978. Then they merged with the Kapi'olani Maternity Home in 1978 and became Kapi'olani Medical Center for Women Children. Of course, none of those are the name of the hospital on the birth certificate. It says Kapiolani Maternal and Gynecological Hospital. In fact reading the alleged fact, I don't know which institution Obama was born in. Could have been the Children's Hospital or the Maternity Home. And either one could use the name Kapiolani Maternal and Gynecological Hospital for the maternity unit. Someone jumped to conclusions. The obvious way to test this: look for other birth certificates from the same period with the same name. It's been done. http://nicedeb.wordpress.com/2011/04/28/yes-there-was-a-kapiolani-maternity-gynecological-hospital-in-1961/ I really want to point to the strong belief behind these posts. It's like the pseudoskepticism that has afflicted cold fusion. No matter what evidence is shown, there is always an objection. The goal posts move. It's obvious that the belief is fixed. It's the same with other issues. Once one buys that the Bible is not only the True Word of God, but also that one is correctly interpreting it (that's ego and attachment), everything that appears to be different -- such as evolution -- *must* be false. So one searches for reasons why it's false, so as to appear rational. As to real faith, it doesn't look like that. One would have no certainty, with real faith, that others are wrong. One would be unmoved by disagreement, one would have no problem considering what others mean, and faith is a condition of the heart, not a set of texts. Many people are unaware of this salient requirement. To them a US citizen is qualified automatically to be POTUS. That is not what the Constitution says: In order for one to be qualifed, one needs to be a Natural Born US Citizen. Strav man argument. People who seriously write about this know the requirment. Right or wrong, it is a requirement. My youngest two daughters are not eligible to be President. But the rule might be changed
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
The actual BC was shown to the press Baloney. What was shown to the press was a printout of the BC they posted on the web site, which we know was a fake. Show me a BC like the ones the Nordyke twins have. Why should bambi BC be different from the long form BC the Nordyke twins got from Hawaii authorites? Jojo - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 3:24 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy At 11:08 AM 8/9/2012, ecat builder wrote: There are many questions about Obama's past. It is an indisputable fact that the Long Form Birth Certificate posted on the http://whitehouse.govwhitehouse.gov web site manipulated in photoshop. The moron who created the PDF forgot to flatten all of the layers, so that anyone could go in an move important parts of the document around, including the registrar's stamp. What parts of the document are accurate, and why was it altered at all? The state of HI uses a number of weasel words to say he was born here without backing it up with an actual document. No, the actual document was shown to the press. Printed on that special paper. The clumsiness with the PDF actually shows naivete, not sophisticated forgery, for sure. You don't think that the President could access some sophisticated forgery skills if needed. Look, anybody could have done better. People alter stuff to publish it. Happens all the time. I don't know the provenance of the images people are looking at, what they went through. But a visible change between that document and what is in the Hawaii book would be easily discoverable, a really stupid forgery, when the original exists and can be accessed with a court order. A number of explanations are possible-- when Obama was adopted by his Indonesian father, the birth certificate may have been modified or altered, as is often the case with adoptions. The actual BC may have been lost or destroyed. Modified in a PDF file? As is often the case with adoptions? No, this is ignorant. Birth certificates are not altered for adoptions. There are additional certificates that can be obtained, for various purposes, but they do not contain false information. They might merely conceal some information. The certificate that has been published is the long form, which is a signed and attested document, attested by, in this case, the mother and the attending physician. I personally doubt Obama was born in Kenya, but Obama is hiding something, or playing a strange game with millions of taxpayer and campaign dollars. There have been dozens of lawsuits claiming he may be ineligible that could be resolved (perhaps) with the presentation of a birth certificate. All fail due to lack of standing but still require hundreds of hours of court work. Sure. And who is responsible for that. Ecat builder, Obama released the long form. He had to go to special trouble to get that, the state did not want to issue it. (They don't want to have to dig through those archives.) It looks to me like the birthers have had some success in confusing people about this. A US military doctor had questions and tried to assure himself that Obama was constitutionally eligible to hold office and ended up in Leavenworth... Poor judgement on his part, but again, easily solved had Obama not played hide-and-seek with his records. The state certified the birth. That people doubted that is not the fault of the state, nor of Obama. The doctor, I'm quite sure, did not end up in Leavenworth merely because he tried to assure himself. Of course, Jojo makes a good point that having dual citizenship at birth would make someone ineligible as Natural Born Citizen, which might explain O's reluctance to enter evidence into a court. The constitution was written so that the president could not be a commander from an invading country or have divided loyalties. It's unclear why it was written the way it was. It was apparently a last-minute change. Dual citizenship does not disqualify one from being President. There is no precedent for that. It's something that voters can consider. As this author points out, the biggest question is Obama's story of attending Occidental where he was a self-admitted pot-smoking bad student.. how did he get in? Why does nobody remember him? Who paid for his college? Was he enrolled as a foreigner? What were his grades? http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/obama%E2%80%99s-college-classmate-the-obama-scandal-is-at-columbia/http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/obama%E2%80%99s-college-classmate-the-obama-scandal-is-at-columbia/ OMG. He admitted smoking pot? Now I really need to go out and campaign for him. He was a bad student? What a success story, then! Jed is not the only one who thinks that anyone who doesn't fawn over Obama is a racist. I haven't seen
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
He didn`t say anything bad about Jesus, he just questioned if you were following His principles properly. I am sure Abd has Jesus in high regard. But, now, it seems you are really begging for being banned. 2012/8/9 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com PS. I know for a fact that Jesus Christ does not like lying so I am not lying. What I do know is that allah (aka Satan) is a liar and the father of lies. That is why, you as an allah slave have no compunction at all about your blatant lies. That is why Bin Laden has no compunction in lying to kill people. (Remember, you started this religious attack. This is your third post with religious attacks. I never initiate a personal attack but I will give as good as I take.) - Original Message - From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com; vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 2:39 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy At 11:39 AM 8/9/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: All your eloquent words are futile until such time as you can answer one simple question. Why is bambi still hiding his real Vault Birth Certificate? It makes no sense to do so, unless one is hiding something. This controversy will end 1 second after bambi releases his vault BC. There is no need to spend millions of taxpayer money for this. There is no need for all your eloquent speculations and explanations. Just do it and be done with it. Why continue the hiding? Uh, Obama long ago released the Long Form Birth Certificate. That's the original document signed by the mother and attending physician. There is no other vault certificate. The Hawaii Long Forms from then are kept in a bound volume. They are not publicly accessible. That, in fact, is why it took so long for Obama to release the Long Form. It took a special request and a special decision by the Health Department. You can't just request the Long Form, there is no procedure for it. You are asking a loaded question, Jojo, that assumes something is being hidden. What makes you so certain of that, such that you can ask such a question and not simply be a liar, liar, pants on fire? Do you imagine that Jesus loves liars and deceivers? All in a good cause? One test of the sincerity of faith is dedication to truth and honesty, regardless of implications, of reputation or face. The only other documents that would exist would be doctor's notes or notes taken by nurses. These are not birth certificates and they don't have legal force. They are used temporarily until the attending physicician -- or midwife or parent or other person, under unusual circumstances -- gets around to signing the thing. They are almost certainly long ago discarded. But they might exist, in old charts, if those are in an archive somewhere. Obama would not have access to them, not directly. But I suppose he could ask. Why should he? The signed, attested documents, executed under laws that would penalize false statements, are legally the strongest documents that exist. Old notes would not supersede them, because notes can be wrong and nobody has signed them as being true. I'm starting to doubt that Jojo is serious. This could merely be trolling. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Straw Man argument. First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all births in the newspaper. During that time, anyone can report a birth to Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii. Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth. Funny though cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents. Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president. That's a straw man. His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason. But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still secret. He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone call to release his vault BC. Why hasn't he done it? All your eloquent reasons will not overcome this simple fact. Jojo - Original Message - From: Patrick Ellul To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 1:36 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy http://factcheck.org/2008/08/born-in-the-usa/ In fact, the conspiracy would need to be even deeper than our colleagues realized. In late July, a researcher looking to dig up dirt on Obama instead found a birth announcement that had been published in the Honolulu Advertiser on Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961: Of course, it’s distantly possible that Obama’s grandparents may have planted the announcement just in case their grandson needed to prove his U.S. citizenship in order to run for president someday. On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Of course I know his real name. He was naturalized as an Indonesian citizen as Barry Soetero. The Indonesian government knows this as a fact but they are holding this over Criminal-in-chief's head to win concession from the American Government. This is the danger of divided loyalties for a president. The founding fathers wisely included the Natural Born provision exactly to prevent situations like this. Jojo - Original Message - From: Daniel Rocha To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 12:29 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy So, his name is no Barak Obama or similar? And you know the real name? 2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com I can't very well use his real name cause the secret service will be all over me and do their intimidation routine. - Original Message - From: Daniel Rocha To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Don't you think hat Donkey Kong, which is the name of a videogame ape, is a bit racist? 2012/8/7 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com LOL, if these were the only faults of Donkeykong, it wouldn't be such a big deal. Fact is, Donkeykong is a usurper-in-chief. He violated and trampled on the most basic law of our country. Donkeykong is a criminal and should be removed, by force if necessary. Jojo -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever! image.jpeg
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
fair enough. On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Straw Man argument. First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all births in the newspaper. During that time, anyone can report a birth to Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii. Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth. Funny though cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents. Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president. That's a straw man. His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason. But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still secret. He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone call to release his vault BC. Why hasn't he done it? All your eloquent reasons will not overcome this simple fact. Jojo - Original Message - *From:* Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2012 1:36 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy http://factcheck.org/2008/08/born-in-the-usa/ In fact, the conspiracy would need to be even deeper than our colleagues realized. In late July, a researcher looking to dig up dirt on Obama instead found a birth announcement that had been published in the Honolulu Advertiser on Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961: [image: Inline image 1] Of course, it’s distantly possible that Obama’s grandparents may have planted the announcement just in case their grandson needed to prove his U.S. citizenship in order to run for president someday. On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Of course I know his real name. He was naturalized as an Indonesian citizen as Barry Soetero. The Indonesian government knows this as a fact but they are holding this over Criminal-in-chief's head to win concession from the American Government. This is the danger of divided loyalties for a president. The founding fathers wisely included the Natural Born provision exactly to prevent situations like this. Jojo - Original Message - *From:* Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2012 12:29 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy So, his name is no Barak Obama or similar? And you know the real name? 2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com ** I can't very well use his real name cause the secret service will be all over me and do their intimidation routine. - Original Message - *From:* Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:57 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Don't you think hat Donkey Kong, which is the name of a videogame ape, is a bit racist? 2012/8/7 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com LOL, if these were the only faults of Donkeykong, it wouldn't be such a big deal. Fact is, Donkeykong is a usurper-in-chief. He violated and trampled on the most basic law of our country. Donkeykong is a criminal and should be removed, by force if necessary. Jojo -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever! -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever! image.jpeg
RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Good debate! This is what freedom of speech is all about. His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason. Agreed. His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here), so it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning to the USA *permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be a U.S. Citizen. If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck would. I'm sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being POTUS someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the in case he wanted to become President someday argument. there is reason enough by just coming here. If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child to be a US citizen? I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments and evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far. perhaps after the next election we'll find out? Or not. -Mark From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Straw Man argument. First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all births in the newspaper. During that time, anyone can report a birth to Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii. Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth. Funny though cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents. Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president. That's a straw man. His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason. But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still secret. He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone call to release his vault BC. Why hasn't he done it? All your eloquent reasons will not overcome this simple fact. Jojo
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen 2012/8/8 MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net: Good debate! This is what freedom of speech is all about… “His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.” Agreed. His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here), so it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning to the USA *permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be a U.S. Citizen. If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck would… I’m sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being POTUS someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the “in case he wanted to become President someday” argument… there is reason enough by just coming here. If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child to be a US citizen? I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments and evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far… perhaps after the next election we’ll find out? Or not… -Mark From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Straw Man argument. First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all births in the newspaper. During that time, anyone can report a birth to Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii. Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth. Funny though cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents. Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president. That's a straw man. His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason. But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still secret. He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone call to release his vault BC. Why hasn't he done it? All your eloquent reasons will not overcome this simple fact. Jojo
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Michele, two things: First, the Immigration laws were a bit different in 1963. Stanley Ann Dunham was too young to have conferred to Bambi U.S. Citizenship at that time. Second, Mere U.S. Citizenship does not qualify one to be President. The founding fathers specifically included Natural Born U.S. citizenship as a qualification for being POTUS. I trust you know the difference between a U.S. Citizen and a Natural Born U.S. Citizen. Even if bambi was a U.S. citizen (that fact alone is in doubt); he would still not be qualified unless he was Natural Born U.S. Citizen. Jojo - Original Message - From: Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen 2012/8/8 MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net: Good debate! This is what freedom of speech is all about… “His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.” Agreed. His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here), so it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning to the USA *permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be a U.S. Citizen. If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck would… I’m sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being POTUS someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the “in case he wanted to become President someday” argument… there is reason enough by just coming here. If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child to be a US citizen? I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments and evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far… perhaps after the next election we’ll find out? Or not… -Mark From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Straw Man argument. First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all births in the newspaper. During that time, anyone can report a birth to Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii. Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth. Funny though cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents. Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president. That's a straw man. His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason. But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still secret. He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone call to release his vault BC. Why hasn't he done it? All your eloquent reasons will not overcome this simple fact. Jojo
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Jojo, I know US president must be born on US soil. I do not know enough about Citizenship law to know if the mother was eligible to confer Citizenship to her son, she was 18 at the time. Reading wikipedia seems to say she was eligible in 1961, but as we know wikipedia is far from complete. mic 2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com: Michele, two things: First, the Immigration laws were a bit different in 1963. Stanley Ann Dunham was too young to have conferred to Bambi U.S. Citizenship at that time. Second, Mere U.S. Citizenship does not qualify one to be President. The founding fathers specifically included Natural Born U.S. citizenship as a qualification for being POTUS. I trust you know the difference between a U.S. Citizen and a Natural Born U.S. Citizen. Even if bambi was a U.S. citizen (that fact alone is in doubt); he would still not be qualified unless he was Natural Born U.S. Citizen. Jojo - Original Message - From: Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen 2012/8/8 MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net: Good debate! This is what freedom of speech is all about… “His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.” Agreed. His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here), so it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning to the USA *permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be a U.S. Citizen. If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck would… I’m sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being POTUS someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the “in case he wanted to become President someday” argument… there is reason enough by just coming here. If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child to be a US citizen? I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments and evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far… perhaps after the next election we’ll find out? Or not… -Mark From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Straw Man argument. First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all births in the newspaper. During that time, anyone can report a birth to Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii. Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth. Funny though cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents. Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president. That's a straw man. His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason. But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still secret. He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone call to release his vault BC. Why hasn't he done it? All your eloquent reasons will not overcome this simple fact. Jojo
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Michele, a Natural Born US citizen must fulfill 2 things: 1. Must be born to two US citizen parents. 2. Must be born in US soil. Surely bambi does not qualify for number 1. His alleged father was not a US citizen Second, there is significant question as to where he was actually born. He refuses to release his original vault BC. All we have is a poorly photoshopped copy of his BC, which is surely a fake. Jojo - Original Message - From: Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Jojo, I know US president must be born on US soil. I do not know enough about Citizenship law to know if the mother was eligible to confer Citizenship to her son, she was 18 at the time. Reading wikipedia seems to say she was eligible in 1961, but as we know wikipedia is far from complete. mic 2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com: Michele, two things: First, the Immigration laws were a bit different in 1963. Stanley Ann Dunham was too young to have conferred to Bambi U.S. Citizenship at that time. Second, Mere U.S. Citizenship does not qualify one to be President. The founding fathers specifically included Natural Born U.S. citizenship as a qualification for being POTUS. I trust you know the difference between a U.S. Citizen and a Natural Born U.S. Citizen. Even if bambi was a U.S. citizen (that fact alone is in doubt); he would still not be qualified unless he was Natural Born U.S. Citizen. Jojo - Original Message - From: Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen 2012/8/8 MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net: Good debate! This is what freedom of speech is all about… “His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.” Agreed. His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here), so it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning to the USA *permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be a U.S. Citizen. If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck would… I’m sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being POTUS someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the “in case he wanted to become President someday” argument… there is reason enough by just coming here. If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child to be a US citizen? I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments and evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far… perhaps after the next election we’ll find out? Or not… -Mark From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Straw Man argument. First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all births in the newspaper. During that time, anyone can report a birth to Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii. Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth. Funny though cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents. Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president. That's a straw man. His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason. But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still secret. He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone call to release his vault BC. Why hasn't he done it? All your eloquent reasons will not overcome this simple fact. Jojo
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote: I know US president must be born on US soil. That is incorrect. Several recent candidates such as John McCain were not born on U.S. soil. That makes no difference at all. As long as one parent is a U.S. citizen the child is a natural born U.S. citizen. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Does that exclude also people who are already president of another country? It would be fun to be president of 2 countries! 2012/8/8 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com That is incorrect. Several recent candidates such as John McCain were not born on U.S. soil. That makes no difference at all. As long as one parent is a U.S. citizen the child is a natural born U.S. citizen. - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
I thought that since his mother was an American citizen then he automatically was. Is this not the way it pans out? Does the location of birth outside of the USA make one a non citizen? Dave -Original Message- From: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wed, Aug 8, 2012 2:31 am Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Good debate! This is what freedom of speech is all about… “His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.” Agreed. His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here), so it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning to the USA *permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be a U.S. Citizen. If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck would… I’m sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being POTUS someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the “in case he wanted to become President someday” argument… there is reason enough by just coming here. If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child to be a US citizen? I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments and evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far… perhaps after the next election we’ll find out? Or not… -Mark From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Straw Man argument. First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all births in the newspaper. During that time, anyone can report a birth to Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii. Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth. Funny though cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents. Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president. That's a straw man. His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason. But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still secret. He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone call to release his vault BC. Why hasn't he done it? All your eloquent reasons will not overcome this simple fact. Jojo
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
When is US soil US soil? Would a person be ineligible if the soil he was born on only became US soil after the person's birth? And what if the soil ceased being US soil after he was born? Instead of a simplistic rule, there should be some meaningful criteria for deciding eligibility. Harry On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 5:45 AM, Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote: Jojo, I know US president must be born on US soil. I do not know enough about Citizenship law to know if the mother was eligible to confer Citizenship to her son, she was 18 at the time. Reading wikipedia seems to say she was eligible in 1961, but as we know wikipedia is far from complete. mic 2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com: Michele, two things: First, the Immigration laws were a bit different in 1963. Stanley Ann Dunham was too young to have conferred to Bambi U.S. Citizenship at that time. Second, Mere U.S. Citizenship does not qualify one to be President. The founding fathers specifically included Natural Born U.S. citizenship as a qualification for being POTUS. I trust you know the difference between a U.S. Citizen and a Natural Born U.S. Citizen. Even if bambi was a U.S. citizen (that fact alone is in doubt); he would still not be qualified unless he was Natural Born U.S. Citizen. Jojo - Original Message - From: Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen 2012/8/8 MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net: Good debate! This is what freedom of speech is all about… “His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.” Agreed. His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here), so it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning to the USA *permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be a U.S. Citizen. If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck would… I’m sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being POTUS someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the “in case he wanted to become President someday” argument… there is reason enough by just coming here. If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child to be a US citizen? I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments and evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far… perhaps after the next election we’ll find out? Or not… -Mark From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Straw Man argument. First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all births in the newspaper. During that time, anyone can report a birth to Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii. Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth. Funny though cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents. Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president. That's a straw man. His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason. But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still secret. He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone call to release his vault BC. Why hasn't he done it? All your eloquent reasons will not overcome this simple fact. Jojo
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
and money. ;-) harry On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: why not a vote 2012/8/8 Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com When is US soil US soil? Would a person be ineligible if the soil he was born on only became US soil after the person's birth? And what if the soil ceased being US soil after he was born? Instead of a simplistic rule, there should be some meaningful criteria for deciding eligibility. Harry On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 5:45 AM, Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com wrote: Jojo, I know US president must be born on US soil. I do not know enough about Citizenship law to know if the mother was eligible to confer Citizenship to her son, she was 18 at the time. Reading wikipedia seems to say she was eligible in 1961, but as we know wikipedia is far from complete. mic 2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com: Michele, two things: First, the Immigration laws were a bit different in 1963. Stanley Ann Dunham was too young to have conferred to Bambi U.S. Citizenship at that time. Second, Mere U.S. Citizenship does not qualify one to be President. The founding fathers specifically included Natural Born U.S. citizenship as a qualification for being POTUS. I trust you know the difference between a U.S. Citizen and a Natural Born U.S. Citizen. Even if bambi was a U.S. citizen (that fact alone is in doubt); he would still not be qualified unless he was Natural Born U.S. Citizen. Jojo - Original Message - From: Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen 2012/8/8 MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net: Good debate! This is what freedom of speech is all about… “His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.” Agreed. His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here), so it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning to the USA *permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be a U.S. Citizen. If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck would… I’m sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being POTUS someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the “in case he wanted to become President someday” argument… there is reason enough by just coming here. If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child to be a US citizen? I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments and evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far… perhaps after the next election we’ll find out? Or not… -Mark From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Straw Man argument. First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all births in the newspaper. During that time, anyone can report a birth to Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii. Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth. Funny though cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents. Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president. That's a straw man. His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason. But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still secret. He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone call to release his vault BC. Why hasn't he done it? All your eloquent reasons will not overcome this simple fact. Jojo
RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
As far as I know a child born to a US citizen is automatically also a citizen regardless of location of birth. I have grand daughters born in Switzerland who have dual citizenship. Ron --On Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:31 PM -0700 MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Good debate! This is what freedom of speech is all about… His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason. Agreed. His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here), so it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning to the USA *permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be a U.S. Citizen. If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck would… I'm sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being POTUS someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the in case he wanted to become President someday argument… there is reason enough by just coming here. If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child to be a US citizen? I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments and evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far… perhaps after the next election we'll find out? Or not… -Mark From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Straw Man argument. First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all births in the newspaper. During that time, anyone can report a birth to Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii. Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth. Funny though cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents. Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president. That's a straw man. His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason. But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still secret. He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone call to release his vault BC. Why hasn't he done it? All your eloquent reasons will not overcome this simple fact. Jojo
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Jojo: I never thought I'd see 0bama's birth certificate debated here on Vortex. You've made it a fascinating place to visit for more than one reason. Regarding #2, who can blame 0bama for holding back his birth certificate when he hasn't been forced to do so? This begs the question of who forces him to do so... Regarding #1, it seems so simple. It was the responsibility of the Supreme Court of the US to determine his eligibility, per the 20th amendment: Section 3. If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified. Notice that the order of events is spelled out: if the President elect shall have failed to qualify. That means the qualification takes place AFTER the General Public votes, and even AFTER the Electoral College. It also shows explicitly that the ELECTION RESULTS ARE SUBORDINATE TO QUALIFICATION. Further resources and copies of the constitution: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twentieth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html It is the US Supreme Court who threw our republic into this constitutional tailspin. 0bama did what any selfish politician would do. But Supreme Court members are given lifetime appointments so they can be free from the political ramifications of their decisions. Their JOB is to uphold the constitution. Period. They didn't do it. They threw this republic down the drain so that they could enjoy warm smiles at Washington DC cocktail parties. You may enjoy this birth certificate thread I started on Intrade. It is the most-read thread in Intrade's history. In particular, I wonder how you would answer the hypotheticals I asked about Caesar crossing the Rubicon? https://bb.intrade.com/intradeForum/posts/list/570/2279.page#37978 Kevmo --- On Wed, 8/8/12, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Date: Wednesday, August 8, 2012, 3:15 AM Michele, a Natural Born US citizen must fulfill 2 things: 1. Must be born to two US citizen parents. 2. Must be born in US soil. Surely bambi does not qualify for number 1. His alleged father was not a US citizen Second, there is significant question as to where he was actually born. He refuses to release his original vault BC. All we have is a poorly photoshopped copy of his BC, which is surely a fake. Jojo - Original Message - From: Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Jojo, I know US president must be born on US soil. I do not know enough about Citizenship law to know if the mother was eligible to confer Citizenship to her son, she was 18 at the time. Reading wikipedia seems to say she was eligible in 1961, but as we know wikipedia is far from complete. mic 2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com: Michele, two things: First, the Immigration laws were a bit different in 1963. Stanley Ann Dunham was too young to have conferred to Bambi U.S. Citizenship at that time. Second, Mere U.S. Citizenship does not qualify one to be President. The founding fathers specifically included Natural Born U.S. citizenship as a qualification for being POTUS. I trust you know the difference between a U.S. Citizen and a Natural Born U.S. Citizen. Even if bambi was a U.S. citizen (that fact alone is in doubt); he would still not be qualified unless he was Natural Born U.S. Citizen. Jojo - Original Message - From: Michele Comitini michele.comit...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 4:14 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen 2012/8/8 MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net: Good debate! This is what freedom of speech is all about… “His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason.” Agreed. His
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
That is incorrect Ron. A child of one US citizen does not automatically become a US citizen. He has to choose which parent's citizenship he wants when he reaches 21. Besides, Stanley Ann Dunham was too young to have conferred US citizenship to Bambi when he was born. And a Dual Citizen is classified automatically as NOT a Natural-Born US Citizen. A child born out of 2 US citizens but born out of US soil, can be a US citizen but not a Natural-Born US Citizen A child born in US soil, but to non-US citizens, may become a US citizen but not a Natural-Born US Citizen. A child born in US soil, but to only 1 US citizen parent, must choose which citizenship he wants when he reaches 21. He may choose both and become a Dual Citizen, but he is certainly NOT a Natural-Born US citizen. But mere US citizenship does not qualify one to be president. He has to be Natural-Born US citizen. Which means a child of 2 US citizens and born on US soil. One theory says that a Natural Born US Citizen is one wherein he does not have to take any special action to get his US citizenship. If Bambi has to choose US Citizenship, then he is automatically not a Natural-Born US citizen. And this would be the case with Bambi, because he was an Indonesian Citizen when he was a child. But since, he was not yet 21 at that time, he did not have to make a specific choice. When he reached 21, he should have made that choice. If he did not, then he is still an Illegal Alien in this country. But none of this can be resolved because criminal-in-chief has a gag order on all agencies and private entities to keep his records secret. Question is, WHY? Jojo - Original Message - From: Ron Wormus prot...@frii.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 2:28 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy As far as I know a child born to a US citizen is automatically also a citizen regardless of location of birth. I have grand daughters born in Switzerland who have dual citizenship. Ron --On Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:31 PM -0700 MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Good debate! This is what freedom of speech is all about… His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason. Agreed. His mother was Caucasian and from the US (she was born here), so it certainly is likely that *if* she was returning to the USA *permanently*, and with baby Barack, she would have wanted for him to be a U.S. Citizen. If I was a parent in that situation, I sure as heck would… I'm sure his parents were NOT thinking anything about their son being POTUS someday, obviously, but as explained, there is NO need to bring up the in case he wanted to become President someday argument… there is reason enough by just coming here. If that was you bringing in your newborn, would you not want your child to be a US citizen? I must confess, I have only looked at a limited amount of the arguments and evidence about the whole issue, so am on the fence so far… perhaps after the next election we'll find out? Or not… -Mark From: Jojo Jaro [mailto:jth...@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 11:02 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Straw Man argument. First, the Hawaii authorities are the ones which automatically post all births in the newspaper. During that time, anyone can report a birth to Hawaii authorities even if the birth did not physically occur in Hawaii. Hawaii authorities did not have to verify the reported birth. Funny though cause that address belongs to the grandparents, not bambi's parents. Second, there is no need to argue that his grandparents secretly conspired to make him a citizen because they knew he was going to be president. That's a straw man. His grandparents were not dumb and knew the benefits of US citizenship. No conspiracy to be POTUS has to be invoked, only that they want their grandchild to be a US citizen is good enough a reason. But just give me a simple explanation why his Hawaii Vault BC is still secret. He can end this Birther conspiracy movement with a single phone call to release his vault BC. Why hasn't he done it? All your eloquent reasons will not overcome this simple fact. Jojo
RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
From Jojo Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii. If he was, why the fake Birth Certificate? Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long? Once again, I find myself having to correct your misinformation. You like taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with, using these one liners. No birth certificate ever made a man or woman what they are today. It's what they do with their life after they are born that matters. Would birther's be so much in a tizzy if Obama had been white? Would any of these birthers have really cared that much about the status of Obama's birth certificate? Pardon the foul language that is about to come out of my mouth, but I wish birthers would just be honest with themselves and call a spade a spade. It is draining to incessantly have to listen to individuals who call themselves god fearing Americans who don't even know they are still in the closet on this matter. The history book will have a lot to say about this unfortunate incident, and it will not be good: A group of so-called god-fearing Americans hid their bigotry behind a constitutional premise that Obama's birth certificate was faked. On the same vein, I think individuals like Arnold Schwarzenegger ought to have the constitutional right to run for president. For better or worse, he had been elected to run the most powerful state in the United States. Many think he didn't to a half-assed job of it. Granted, if given the chance many would probably not vote for Arnold, but I suspect many would. I think he ought to have the chance. At least he isn't black. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Ah, playing the race card again. I despise Donkeykong not because he's black but because he is a liberal communist who wants to destroy America. For your information, my favorite candidate was Alan Keyes not because he is black, but because of his strong conservative Christian Values. Only liberals like you would be so naive to think that people vote based on the color of their skin. You liberals are the most racists people ever. Birthers are tizzy about Donkeykong's birth certificate because there is such a thing as the Constitution in this country. The Constitution may not matter to you liberal commies, but it matters to Americans who love their democratic and free country and those who believe in the rule of law. I am being honest with myself. I do not despise Donkeykong because he is black. God is my witness. Put Alan Keyes on the ballot and I will show you how I vote with my ballot as well as with my money. Mike Huckabee was the only candidate I ever gave money to, and Alan Keyes will receive from me the maximum amount of contribution. When liberal commies like you have nothing else to defend the criminal actions of Donkeykong, you resort to this race card. No, I do not think Arnold Swartzenegger should have the right to run for president. He is not qualified, in the same way the Donkeykong is NOT qualified. So you think Donkeykong should not have to prove his Natural Born Citizenship status? why let's just use that Constitution as toilet paper, shall we? Sometimes, it just puzzles me how liberals think, and you've exemplified this quintessential liberal philosophy with this post. Jojo PS. I do hope you get what you deserve up there in Wisconsin with the new Republican governor. I hope he gets you off your lazy, liberal, labor union, welfare mentality. I just might move up to Wisconsin to help ensure he wins re-election. - Original Message - From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:00 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy From Jojo Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii. If he was, why the fake Birth Certificate? Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long? Once again, I find myself having to correct your misinformation. You like taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with, using these one liners. No birth certificate ever made a man or woman what they are today. It's what they do with their life after they are born that matters. Would birther's be so much in a tizzy if Obama had been white? Would any of these birthers have really cared that much about the status of Obama's birth certificate? Pardon the foul language that is about to come out of my mouth, but I wish birthers would just be honest with themselves and call a spade a spade. It is draining to incessantly have to listen to individuals who call themselves god fearing Americans who don't even know they are still in the closet on this matter. The history book will have a lot to say about this unfortunate incident, and it will not be good: A group of so-called god-fearing Americans hid their bigotry behind a constitutional premise that Obama's birth certificate was faked. On the same vein, I think individuals like Arnold Schwarzenegger ought to have the constitutional right to run for president. For better or worse, he had been elected to run the most powerful state in the United States. Many think he didn't to a half-assed job of it. Granted, if given the chance many would probably not vote for Arnold, but I suspect many would. I think he ought to have the chance. At least he isn't black. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Jojo, are you serious? . . . 2012/8/6 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com ** Jed, Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii. If he was, why the fake Birth Certificate? Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long? Yikes. I missed that. I am glad I relegated Jaro to the kill file. Daniel: maybe you should too, to preserve your peace of mind. Life is too short to deal with such people. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: PS. I do hope you get what you deserve up there in Wisconsin with the new Republican governor. I hope he gets you off your lazy, liberal, labor union, welfare mentality. I just might move up to Wisconsin to help ensure he wins re-election. That kind of personal attack will get you ejected from the list. I say you just invalidated the bet. T
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Jojo, please hold down the attacks upon others in the vortex. You make many good points within your discussion, but this type of name calling and attacks tend to turn off some of us. Steven is a well respected member of the group that has a right to his opinions just as you. I must admit that the suggestion that race is a major factor effecting your position is unwarranted and I hope will not be brought up again. I think that both of you are breaking at least one of the rules with this unfortunate behavior. Dave -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Aug 7, 2012 9:56 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Ah, playing the race card again. I despise Donkeykong not because he's black but because he is a liberal communist who wants to destroy America. For your information, my favorite candidate was Alan Keyes not because he is black, but because of his strong conservative Christian Values. Only liberals like you would be so naive to think that people vote based on the color of their skin. You liberals are the most racists people ever. Birthers are tizzy about Donkeykong's birth certificate because there is such a thing as the Constitution in this country. The Constitution may not matter to you liberal commies, but it matters to Americans who love their democratic and free country and those who believe in the rule of law. I am being honest with myself. I do not despise Donkeykong because he is black. God is my witness. Put Alan Keyes on the ballot and I will show you how I vote with my ballot as well as with my money. Mike Huckabee was the only candidate I ever gave money to, and Alan Keyes will receive from me the maximum amount of contribution. When liberal commies like you have nothing else to defend the criminal actions of Donkeykong, you resort to this race card. No, I do not think Arnold Swartzenegger should have the right to run for president. He is not qualified, in the same way the Donkeykong is NOT qualified. So you think Donkeykong should not have to prove his Natural Born Citizenship status? why let's just use that Constitution as toilet paper, shall we? Sometimes, it just puzzles me how liberals think, and you've exemplified this quintessential liberal philosophy with this post. Jojo PS. I do hope you get what you deserve up there in Wisconsin with the new Republican governor. I hope he gets you off your lazy, liberal, labor union, welfare mentality. I just might move up to Wisconsin to help ensure he wins re-election. - Original Message - From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:00 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy From Jojo Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii. If he was, why the fake Birth Certificate? Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long? Once again, I find myself having to correct your misinformation. You like taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with, using these one liners. No birth certificate ever made a man or woman what they are today. It's what they do with their life after they are born that matters. Would birther's be so much in a tizzy if Obama had been white? Would any of these birthers have really cared that much about the status of Obama's birth certificate? Pardon the foul language that is about to come out of my mouth, but I wish birthers would just be honest with themselves and call a spade a spade. It is draining to incessantly have to listen to individuals who call themselves god fearing Americans who don't even know they are still in the closet on this matter. The history book will have a lot to say about this unfortunate incident, and it will not be good: A group of so-called god-fearing Americans hid their bigotry behind a constitutional premise that Obama's birth certificate was faked. On the same vein, I think individuals like Arnold Schwarzenegger ought to have the constitutional right to run for president. For better or worse, he had been elected to run the most powerful state in the United States. Many think he didn't to a half-assed job of it. Granted, if given the chance many would probably not vote for Arnold, but I suspect many would. I think he ought to have the chance. At least he isn't black. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Are you still joking? Unless in the utopic sense, no coherent communist is a liberal. And communists despise people that traditionally self call themsleves as liberals and conservatives equally because they aren't both anti capitalist as they should be. 2012/8/7 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com ** he is a liberal communist who wants to destroy America. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
In fact, I am amused! 2012/8/7 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Baloney, I said I would only reciprocate when attacked first; and that is exactly what I am doing. If you want attacks to stop, then call for moderation in this forum from the people who are most guilty. Off-topic posts are destroying this forum; and believe me, I am the last person who wants that to happen. Jojo - Original Message - From: David Roberson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 10:40 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Jojo, please hold down the attacks upon others in the vortex. You make many good points within your discussion, but this type of name calling and attacks tend to turn off some of us. Steven is a well respected member of the group that has a right to his opinions just as you. I must admit that the suggestion that race is a major factor effecting your position is unwarranted and I hope will not be brought up again. I think that both of you are breaking at least one of the rules with this unfortunate behavior. Dave -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Aug 7, 2012 9:56 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Ah, playing the race card again. I despise Donkeykong not because he's black but because he is a liberal communist who wants to destroy America. For your information, my favorite candidate was Alan Keyes not because he is black, but because of his strong conservative Christian Values. Only liberals like you would be so naive to think that people vote based on the color of their skin. You liberals are the most racists people ever. Birthers are tizzy about Donkeykong's birth certificate because there is such a thing as the Constitution in this country. The Constitution may not matter to you liberal commies, but it matters to Americans who love their democratic and free country and those who believe in the rule of law. I am being honest with myself. I do not despise Donkeykong because he is black. God is my witness. Put Alan Keyes on the ballot and I will show you how I vote with my ballot as well as with my money. Mike Huckabee was the only candidate I ever gave money to, and Alan Keyes will receive from me the maximum amount of contribution. When liberal commies like you have nothing else to defend the criminal actions of Donkeykong, you resort to this race card. No, I do not think Arnold Swartzenegger should have the right to run for president. He is not qualified, in the same way the Donkeykong is NOT qualified. So you think Donkeykong should not have to prove his Natural Born Citizenship status? why let's just use that Constitution as toilet paper, shall we? Sometimes, it just puzzles me how liberals think, and you've exemplified this quintessential liberal philosophy with this post. Jojo PS. I do hope you get what you deserve up there in Wisconsin with the new Republican governor. I hope he gets you off your lazy, liberal, labor union, welfare mentality. I just might move up to Wisconsin to help ensure he wins re-election. - Original Message - From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:00 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy From Jojo Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii. If he was, why the fake Birth Certificate? Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long? Once again, I find myself having to correct your misinformation. You like taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with, using these one liners. No birth certificate ever made a man or woman what they are today. It's what they do with their life after they are born that matters. Would birther's be so much in a tizzy if Obama had been white? Would any of these birthers have really cared that much about the status of Obama's birth certificate? Pardon the foul language that is about to come out of my mouth, but I wish birthers would just be honest with themselves and call a spade a spade. It is draining to incessantly have to listen to individuals who call themselves god fearing Americans who don't even know they are still in the closet on this matter. The history book will have a lot to say about this unfortunate incident, and it will not be good: A group of so-called god-fearing Americans hid their bigotry behind a constitutional premise that Obama's birth certificate was faked. On the same vein, I think individuals like Arnold Schwarzenegger ought to have the constitutional right to run for president. For better or worse, he had been elected to run the most powerful state in the United States. Many think he didn't to a half-assed job of it. Granted, if given the chance many would probably
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
The bet is only invalidated with my banning for this reason. And since I have not been banned, I have not invalidated our bet. And of course, Bill will use this opportunity to ban me now; although this is clearly not a personal attack. It is an attack but not personal; and only in proportion to the attack I received. Don't you consider SVJ calling me a bigot and racist an attack? If you are a fair person, you would criticize him also. And if you don't, that only serves to prove what I have been saying all along. And I would have won the spirit of our bet. Besides, I don't care if I am banned. If people here have a double standard, then I really don't want to be part of this forum. Jojo - Original Message - From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 9:56 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: PS. I do hope you get what you deserve up there in Wisconsin with the new Republican governor. I hope he gets you off your lazy, liberal, labor union, welfare mentality. I just might move up to Wisconsin to help ensure he wins re-election. That kind of personal attack will get you ejected from the list. I say you just invalidated the bet. T
RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
The absurdity that any black ancestor makes one black is a residue of the American Civil war where any descendents of white slaveholders and black slaves would continue to be defined as black and segregated. To any but the most prejudiced eye Obama can be equally regarded as white. My own bloodlines are all Irish, descended from an indentured servant who arrived before the 1776 revolution. Mike Carrell From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionwo...@charter.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:01 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy From Jojo Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii. If he was, why the fake Birth Certificate? Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long? Once again, I find myself having to correct your misinformation. You like taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with, using these one liners. No birth certificate ever made a man or woman what they are today. It's what they do with their life after they are born that matters. Would birther's be so much in a tizzy if Obama had been white? Would any of these birthers have really cared that much about the status of Obama's birth certificate? Pardon the foul language that is about to come out of my mouth, but I wish birthers would just be honest with themselves and call a spade a spade. It is draining to incessantly have to listen to individuals who call themselves god fearing Americans who don't even know they are still in the closet on this matter. The history book will have a lot to say about this unfortunate incident, and it will not be good: A group of so-called god-fearing Americans hid their bigotry behind a constitutional premise that Obama's birth certificate was faked. On the same vein, I think individuals like Arnold Schwarzenegger ought to have the constitutional right to run for president. For better or worse, he had been elected to run the most powerful state in the United States. Many think he didn't to a half-assed job of it. Granted, if given the chance many would probably not vote for Arnold, but I suspect many would. I think he ought to have the chance. At least he isn't black. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. Department.
RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
All, It was Steven that provoked this situation with his comments, albeit, apologetically delivered. He has made similar derogatory comments before and I tend to just ignore them, however, his repeated instances of calling people of politically conservative viewpoint as racist is offensive, and typical of the far left. Political Correctness is being used to squelch political debate, and the fact that liberals are the ones who constantly invoke PC shows me that they want to squelch opposing viewpoints. The fact that they can't see the hypocrisy in that is quite telling indeed. The liberal media, and many of the outspoken liberal celebrities are some of the most hateful, hypocritical people I've seen. And I agree with DaveR, that, I think that both of you are breaking at least one of the rules with this unfortunate behavior -Mark From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 7:41 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Jojo, please hold down the attacks upon others in the vortex. You make many good points within your discussion, but this type of name calling and attacks tend to turn off some of us. Steven is a well respected member of the group that has a right to his opinions just as you. I must admit that the suggestion that race is a major factor effecting your position is unwarranted and I hope will not be brought up again. I think that both of you are breaking at least one of the rules with this unfortunate behavior. Dave -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro mailto:jth...@hotmail.com jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Aug 7, 2012 9:56 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Ah, playing the race card again. I despise Donkeykong not because he's black but because he is a liberal communist who wants to destroy America. For your information, my favorite candidate was Alan Keyes not because he is black, but because of his strong conservative Christian Values. Only liberals like you would be so naive to think that people vote based on the color of their skin. You liberals are the most racists people ever. Birthers are tizzy about Donkeykong's birth certificate because there is such a thing as the Constitution in this country. The Constitution may not matter to you liberal commies, but it matters to Americans who love their democratic and free country and those who believe in the rule of law. I am being honest with myself. I do not despise Donkeykong because he is black. God is my witness. Put Alan Keyes on the ballot and I will show you how I vote with my ballot as well as with my money. Mike Huckabee was the only candidate I ever gave money to, and Alan Keyes will receive from me the maximum amount of contribution. When liberal commies like you have nothing else to defend the criminal actions of Donkeykong, you resort to this race card. No, I do not think Arnold Swartzenegger should have the right to run for president. He is not qualified, in the same way the Donkeykong is NOT qualified. So you think Donkeykong should not have to prove his Natural Born Citizenship status? why let's just use that Constitution as toilet paper, shall we? Sometimes, it just puzzles me how liberals think, and you've exemplified this quintessential liberal philosophy with this post. Jojo PS. I do hope you get what you deserve up there in Wisconsin with the new Republican governor. I hope he gets you off your lazy, liberal, labor union, welfare mentality. I just might move up to Wisconsin to help ensure he wins re-election. - Original Message - From: mailto:orionwo...@charter.net OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson To: mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:00 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy From Jojo Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii. If he was, why the fake Birth Certificate? Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long? Once again, I find myself having to correct your misinformation. You like taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with, using these one liners. No birth certificate ever made a man or woman what they are today. It's what they do with their life after they are born that matters. Would birther's be so much in a tizzy if Obama had been white? Would any of these birthers have really cared that much about the status of Obama's birth certificate? Pardon the foul language that is about to come out of my mouth, but I wish birthers would just be honest with themselves and call a spade a spade. It is draining to incessantly have to listen to individuals who call themselves god fearing Americans who don't even know they are still in the closet on this matter
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Mark, by demonstrating a keen sense of fairness and objectivity in assessing the situation, you have just increased my respect for you. And because of this, I will take your suggestion to heart. Jojo - Original Message - From: MarkI-ZeroPoint To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 12:30 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy All, It was Steven that provoked this situation with his comments, albeit, apologetically delivered. He has made similar derogatory comments before and I tend to just ignore them, however, his repeated instances of calling people of politically conservative viewpoint as racist is offensive, and typical of the far left. Political Correctness is being used to squelch political debate, and the fact that liberals are the ones who constantly invoke PC shows me that they want to squelch opposing viewpoints. The fact that they can't see the hypocrisy in that is quite telling indeed. The liberal media, and many of the outspoken liberal celebrities are some of the most hateful, hypocritical people I've seen. And I agree with DaveR, that, I think that both of you are breaking at least one of the rules with this unfortunate behavior -Mark From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 7:41 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Jojo, please hold down the attacks upon others in the vortex. You make many good points within your discussion, but this type of name calling and attacks tend to turn off some of us. Steven is a well respected member of the group that has a right to his opinions just as you. I must admit that the suggestion that race is a major factor effecting your position is unwarranted and I hope will not be brought up again. I think that both of you are breaking at least one of the rules with this unfortunate behavior. Dave -Original Message- From: Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Aug 7, 2012 9:56 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Ah, playing the race card again. I despise Donkeykong not because he's black but because he is a liberal communist who wants to destroy America. For your information, my favorite candidate was Alan Keyes not because he is black, but because of his strong conservative Christian Values. Only liberals like you would be so naive to think that people vote based on the color of their skin. You liberals are the most racists people ever. Birthers are tizzy about Donkeykong's birth certificate because there is such a thing as the Constitution in this country. The Constitution may not matter to you liberal commies, but it matters to Americans who love their democratic and free country and those who believe in the rule of law. I am being honest with myself. I do not despise Donkeykong because he is black. God is my witness. Put Alan Keyes on the ballot and I will show you how I vote with my ballot as well as with my money. Mike Huckabee was the only candidate I ever gave money to, and Alan Keyes will receive from me the maximum amount of contribution. When liberal commies like you have nothing else to defend the criminal actions of Donkeykong, you resort to this race card. No, I do not think Arnold Swartzenegger should have the right to run for president. He is not qualified, in the same way the Donkeykong is NOT qualified. So you think Donkeykong should not have to prove his Natural Born Citizenship status? why let's just use that Constitution as toilet paper, shall we? Sometimes, it just puzzles me how liberals think, and you've exemplified this quintessential liberal philosophy with this post. Jojo PS. I do hope you get what you deserve up there in Wisconsin with the new Republican governor. I hope he gets you off your lazy, liberal, labor union, welfare mentality. I just might move up to Wisconsin to help ensure he wins re-election. - Original Message - From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 9:00 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy From Jojo Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii. If he was, why the fake Birth Certificate? Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long? Once again, I find myself having to correct your misinformation. You like taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with, using these one liners. No birth certificate ever made a man or woman what they are today. It's what they do with their life after
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Don't you consider SVJ calling me a bigot and racist an attack? If you are a fair person, you would criticize him also. I wasn't criticizing you. I was merely pointing out that attacking him personally is a violation of rules which can get you kicked out. The bet was that you would get kicked out for posting on anti-Dawinian views. Because you have now violated a rule, you have fouled the bet because being kicked out now could be 30% because you called someone names. I did not speak of Steven because I do not have a bet with him. T
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
At 07:39 PM 8/6/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Jed, Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii. If he was, why the fake Birth Certificate? Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long? Once again, I find myself having to correct your misinformation. You like taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with, using these one liners. Jojo http://thefogbow.com/forum/index.php
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Baloney, I said I would only reciprocate when attacked first; and that is exactly what I am doing. If you want attacks to stop, then call for moderation in this forum from the people who are most guilty. Off-topic posts are destroying this forum; and believe me, I am the last person who wants that to happen. Jojo The idea of evolution is very important and far reaching. It could transform the conceptual foundations of ALL physics. harry
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
How many years until america elects a low income transgender muslim president? harry
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Well, if I do not get banned for this for say a week, that would necessarily imply that this would not have been the reason for the banning. If I was going to be banned for this, it should happen pretty soon. Anyways my friend, I am prepared for us to have lunch on me whether I win or not. The bet was just an excuse. Jojo - Original Message - From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 3:24 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Don't you consider SVJ calling me a bigot and racist an attack? If you are a fair person, you would criticize him also. I wasn't criticizing you. I was merely pointing out that attacking him personally is a violation of rules which can get you kicked out. The bet was that you would get kicked out for posting on anti-Dawinian views. Because you have now violated a rule, you have fouled the bet because being kicked out now could be 30% because you called someone names. I did not speak of Steven because I do not have a bet with him. T
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Alan, the link is interesting and if you are suggesting that I should take this Obama Ineligibility discussion there, I am not the one you should be concerned about. Jed started this mess with a insult to Birthers. My responses on this stops the minute no one else throws another insult or ridicule. Jojo - Original Message - From: Alan J Fletcher To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 3:50 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy At 07:39 PM 8/6/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: Jed, Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii. If he was, why the fake Birth Certificate? Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long? Once again, I find myself having to correct your misinformation. You like taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with, using these one liners. Jojo http://thefogbow.com/forum/index.php
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Anyways my friend, I am prepared for us to have lunch on me whether I win or not. The bet was just an excuse. I went to the 57th Fighter today. Had not been in weeks. I enjoyed an excellent spinach salad with pears, walnuts and shrimp. If you ever make it to Atlanta, you will have expended enough and lunch is my treat. Regards, Terry
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
I am aware of the hidden meaning of what you are saying here so don't think it went pass me. Yes, you are right. Darwinian Evolution has very little to do with actual physics for which this forum is dedicated to. But a Darwinian world view nonetheless has huge influences on how physicists interpret data. To illustrate, let me bring up an example. The interpretation of the meaning of the Red shift. Red shift has always been taken to mean that far objects are receding from us. This interpretation is a result of a Darwinian world view of a naturalistic process; for a universe that just came into being without a creator, (ie Big Bang, inflation, dark matter and dark energy). This interpretation is in fact not the only one. Another explanation is that of a change in the inherenct atomic processes that causes these red shifts. Many have speculated that these same process are ZPE-based and is responsible for a whole range of anomalous observations like the apparent slowing down of the speed of light, the experimental divergence of the measured constants influencing the Planck length and the phenomena of Quantized Red Shifts. A ZPE-based interpretation connotes a possibility of a creator upholding all things and manifesting itself as ZPE. A mere change of world view is enough to influence a physicist on which explanation he might favor. So, in fact, Darwinian paradigm has more influence in many fields of science than you presuppose. Jojo - Original Message - From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 5:52 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: Baloney, I said I would only reciprocate when attacked first; and that is exactly what I am doing. If you want attacks to stop, then call for moderation in this forum from the people who are most guilty. Off-topic posts are destroying this forum; and believe me, I am the last person who wants that to happen. Jojo The idea of evolution is very important and far reaching. It could transform the conceptual foundations of ALL physics. harry
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
LOL, if these were the only faults of Donkeykong, it wouldn't be such a big deal. Fact is, Donkeykong is a usurper-in-chief. He violated and trampled on the most basic law of our country. Donkeykong is a criminal and should be removed, by force if necessary. Jojo - Original Message - From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 6:47 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy How many years until america elects a low income transgender muslim president? harry
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 9:34 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: LOL, if these were the only faults of Donkeykong, it wouldn't be such a big deal. No faults. Fact is, Donkeykong is a usurper-in-chief. He violated and trampled on the most basic law of our country. Donkeykong is a criminal and should be removed, by force if necessary. If I were American I would considered it nothing more than an indiscretion. However, I bet almost every president has trampled on the constitution while in office. harry - Original Message - From: Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 6:47 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy How many years until america elects a low income transgender muslim president? harry
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Don't you think hat Donkey Kong, which is the name of a videogame ape, is a bit racist? 2012/8/7 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com LOL, if these were the only faults of Donkeykong, it wouldn't be such a big deal. Fact is, Donkeykong is a usurper-in-chief. He violated and trampled on the most basic law of our country. Donkeykong is a criminal and should be removed, by force if necessary. Jojo -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
I can't very well use his real name cause the secret service will be all over me and do their intimidation routine. Donkey Kong is an ape. I am calling him an ape, not a black person. How can that be racist when ape is not a race. Jojo PS. But based on the suggestion of one who I have growing respect for, I will not use Donkey Kong anymore. From now on, I will refer to him as criminal-in-chief. How's that? Is that racist to criminals now? - Original Message - From: Daniel Rocha To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Don't you think hat Donkey Kong, which is the name of a videogame ape, is a bit racist? 2012/8/7 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com LOL, if these were the only faults of Donkeykong, it wouldn't be such a big deal. Fact is, Donkeykong is a usurper-in-chief. He violated and trampled on the most basic law of our country. Donkeykong is a criminal and should be removed, by force if necessary. Jojo -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
So, his name is no Barak Obama or similar? And you know the real name? 2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com ** I can't very well use his real name cause the secret service will be all over me and do their intimidation routine. - Original Message - *From:* Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:57 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Don't you think hat Donkey Kong, which is the name of a videogame ape, is a bit racist? 2012/8/7 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com LOL, if these were the only faults of Donkeykong, it wouldn't be such a big deal. Fact is, Donkeykong is a usurper-in-chief. He violated and trampled on the most basic law of our country. Donkeykong is a criminal and should be removed, by force if necessary. Jojo -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Of course I know his real name. He was naturalized as an Indonesian citizen as Barry Soetero. The Indonesian government knows this as a fact but they are holding this over Criminal-in-chief's head to win concession from the American Government. This is the danger of divided loyalties for a president. The founding fathers wisely included the Natural Born provision exactly to prevent situations like this. Jojo - Original Message - From: Daniel Rocha To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 12:29 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy So, his name is no Barak Obama or similar? And you know the real name? 2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com I can't very well use his real name cause the secret service will be all over me and do their intimidation routine. - Original Message - From: Daniel Rocha To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Don't you think hat Donkey Kong, which is the name of a videogame ape, is a bit racist? 2012/8/7 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com LOL, if these were the only faults of Donkeykong, it wouldn't be such a big deal. Fact is, Donkeykong is a usurper-in-chief. He violated and trampled on the most basic law of our country. Donkeykong is a criminal and should be removed, by force if necessary. Jojo -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
http://factcheck.org/2008/08/born-in-the-usa/ In fact, the conspiracy would need to be even deeper than our colleagues realized. In late July, a researcher looking to dig up dirt on Obama instead found a birth announcement that had been published in the Honolulu Advertiser on Sunday, Aug. 13, 1961: [image: Inline image 1] Of course, it’s distantly possible that Obama’s grandparents may have planted the announcement just in case their grandson needed to prove his U.S. citizenship in order to run for president someday. On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com wrote: ** Of course I know his real name. He was naturalized as an Indonesian citizen as Barry Soetero. The Indonesian government knows this as a fact but they are holding this over Criminal-in-chief's head to win concession from the American Government. This is the danger of divided loyalties for a president. The founding fathers wisely included the Natural Born provision exactly to prevent situations like this. Jojo - Original Message - *From:* Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2012 12:29 PM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy So, his name is no Barak Obama or similar? And you know the real name? 2012/8/8 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com ** I can't very well use his real name cause the secret service will be all over me and do their intimidation routine. - Original Message - *From:* Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com *Sent:* Wednesday, August 08, 2012 9:57 AM *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Don't you think hat Donkey Kong, which is the name of a videogame ape, is a bit racist? 2012/8/7 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com LOL, if these were the only faults of Donkeykong, it wouldn't be such a big deal. Fact is, Donkeykong is a usurper-in-chief. He violated and trampled on the most basic law of our country. Donkeykong is a criminal and should be removed, by force if necessary. Jojo -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com -- Patrick www.tRacePerfect.com The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect! The quickest puzzle ever! image.jpeg
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Jed, Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii. If he was, why the fake Birth Certificate? Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long? Once again, I find myself having to correct your misinformation. You like taking pot shots and insult those you disagree with, using these one liners. Jojo - Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 10:23 AM Subject: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Trying to kill these things off is like trying to quell birther rumors that Obama was not born in Hawaii. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
Jojo, are you serious? You seem to adopt only views of the American conspiratorial right. You seem to play with the stereotyped red-neck, those we see in films and cartoons. 2012/8/6 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com ** Jed, Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii. If he was, why the fake Birth Certificate? Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long? -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
It's no longer a conspiracy from the right when 70% of Americans feel he should present it, andobama himself refuses to release his birth certificate. I talking about the real one, not the photoshoped version he's been parotting to gullible people like you and Jed. Goodness, every American is required to present his real Birth Certificate for something as mundane as a Driver's License and yet Bambi thinks he is above the law and hides his, and you people think that is normal and give him a pass. Looks like you and Jed are more gullible and uninformed than I give you credit for. Jojo - Original Message - From: Daniel Rocha To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy Jojo, are you serious? You seem to adopt only views of the American conspiratorial right. You seem to play with the stereotyped red-neck, those we see in films and cartoons. 2012/8/6 Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com Jed, Obama was indeed NOT born in Hawaii. If he was, why the fake Birth Certificate? Why hide his Birth Certificate for so long? -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy
The solution to your frustrations is easy. In six months when the papp engine is for sale on the market, we all here will contribute a nominal amount to motivate the purchase of a Papp engine together with its installation in your car by an auto customizer. You are rich by your own admission and such things are possible for you. You can then take Gibbs for a ride and let him make sure there is no gas tank to be found in your new ride. After his long drive with you, a time of bonding and joking and good comradeship, if he still maintains his current position, then you will certainly know his ulterior motives for who could possibly ignore such a strong proof of concept. Be patient, the time of reckoning for Gibbs grows short together with your ultimate vindication. Gibbs will then be forced to eat his words along with the many others who will ride with you, so they all best stay hungry. Cheers: Axil On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 10:23 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: I do not mean to beat a dead horse, but mass media blather causes more harm than you might realize. It destroys the credibility of researchers. The problem is, professionals often read the mass media account and assume it is an accurate report of what the researchers said. Take this latest example: . . . from the thousands of experiments performed over the last few decades it seems that there are various reactions that output more energy than is put into them . . . Imagine you are a scientist or an engineer. You know nothing about cold fusion. You have not read any papers. You read Gibbs, and you think to yourself: Those cold fusion 'researchers' must be a gang of idiots. They think that getting more energy out than in proves the effect is nuclear?!? What amateurs. They must be tin-foil helmeted high-school dropouts. Mass media articles about technology sometimes have mix-ups such as confusing power and energy (watts and watt-hours). An educated reader can usually sort this out. She can recreate in her mind what the reporter actually heard from the researcher. In this case, we know that Gibbs did not hear anything. He made it up! No cold fusion researcher would say: we are getting more out than we are putting in, so we know this is real. Every article by Gibbs has mistakes like that, as do the ones in the Scientific American. Anyone who believes Sci. Am. would surely dismiss cold fusion: http://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/?p=294 Needless to say, Wikipedia is a compendium of chaos, confusion, and lies. When I last checked a few years ago, every substantive assertion in it was incorrect. Most of them are about things like recombination that have been circulating endlessly since 1989. Trying to kill these things off is like trying to quell birther rumors that Obama was not born in Hawaii. The mass media and Wikipedia is where people go first, these days. People who go to these sources to learn about cold fusion will get the impression that cold fusion scientists are lunatics. I know I would. That is why mass media reports written by ignorant people are worse than no reports at all. - Jed