Re: water into wine

[RC Macaulay]

Hmmm.. the link Pliliplaven link that Grimer posted showing the graphs has 
me intrigued.
http://www.philiplaven.com/p20.html 
In my mind's eye, I keep seeing a spiral, perhaps a helix pattern in lieu of 
a seeming random of the imaginary shown in graph 6.
Look carefully at graph 5 again, do I see a part of a spiral?  Or could 
this  be a helix with three events ,one of which being the elusive Frank 
senses. Water and light brings to mind the red throated hummingbirds so busy 
outside this time of year. They can change the throat colors ( by adjusting the 
feathers?) supposedly for mating and macho purposes.. but what if we are getting 
a glimpse of a use of color we are not fully aware of? Watching a 
hummingbird accelerate from scratch can puzzle one trying to understand this 
ability.
Richard
<>

p20.html.url
Description: Binary data

RE: ...water into wine...

[Keith Nagel]

Hi Frank + RC,

Yes, Graph 6 is interesting. The absorption peak at 100nm can
be predicted from the shape of the real component; although
the scale is somewhat compressed due to the log nature of
the graph you can see the peak matches the 50% point of
the dip in the real component. This is common in inductive
materials, look at specs for ferrite where real and imaginary
permeability are plotted and you'll see what I mean.
It happens I was characterizing a ferromagnetic sample this morning
trying to find just that point.

The IR peaks I presume to be some kind of molecular resonances?

K.

-Original Message-
From: Grimer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 1:04 PM
To: vortex-L@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ...water into wine...


I have been following up on the possibility that 
the proximity of c to the integer three times ten 
to an integral power might not be the coincidence 
it logically seems but a manifestation of a subtle 
connection between water and light.

Crazy - possibly  - but certainly fun - 
and a way of painlessly learning a lot more about 
the properties of water and light.  8-)

One thing I remember from schooldays is that the 
refractive index for water is about 4/3. Here 
again we have a suggestive ratio, albeit only 
spot on for orange light at about 600 nm.

There is some very useful stuff on refractive 
indices and the like at the following URL

http://www.philiplaven.com/p20.html

I found the most interesting graph was 
Figure 6 which shows the imaginary part of the 
refractive index, i.e. the measure of absorption. 
The really significant bit it the way it peaks at 
around 100 nm (shades of blacklight, eh!). It is 
not until the wavelength reaches the mm range 
that the imaginary part again comes as close to 
the real part.

There is some intriguing, stuff on other pages of 
the site as well. For instance this rather macabre 
example of a glory:

   
 http://www.philiplaven.com/p2c.html

   Fig. 4 may be the first image of a glory 
   observed from space.  It was recorded on 
   28 January 2003 by the MEIDEX (Mediterranean 
   Israeli Dust Experiment) instrument on board 
   the space shuttle Columbia - which tragically 
   burnt up on re-entry into the Earth's atmosphere 
   on 1 February 2003 resulting in the deaths of 
   all 7 members of the crew.   The MEIDEX Science 
   Team at Tel Aviv University found this fascinating 
   image whilst examining the results of MEIDEX and 
   suggests that the term "Astronaut's glory" should 
   be used "in honor of our friends from the 
   Columbia crew".
   


Frank Grimer

Re: water into wine

[RC Macaulay]

Grimer posted a link to refractive indices. Interesting stuff  but I 
am missing something. Do I notice a conflict with graph 4 and Segelstein's 
values. The parallels on graph 4 seem to be at odds with graph 6. Behavior is 
never parallel unless the graph 4 is derived at best. Graph 6 can give one pause 
in it's insight.
http://www.philiplaven.com/p20.html
Richard
<>

Re: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

I have been following up on the possibility that 
the proximity of c to the integer three times ten 
to an integral power might not be the coincidence 
it logically seems but a manifestation of a subtle 
connection between water and light.

Crazy - possibly  - but certainly fun - 
and a way of painlessly learning a lot more about 
the properties of water and light.  8-)

One thing I remember from schooldays is that the 
refractive index for water is about 4/3. Here 
again we have a suggestive ratio, albeit only 
spot on for orange light at about 600 nm.

There is some very useful stuff on refractive 
indices and the like at the following URL

http://www.philiplaven.com/p20.html

I found the most interesting graph was 
Figure 6 which shows the imaginary part of the 
refractive index, i.e. the measure of absorption. 
The really significant bit it the way it peaks at 
around 100 nm (shades of blacklight, eh!). It is 
not until the wavelength reaches the mm range 
that the imaginary part again comes as close to 
the real part.

There is some intriguing, stuff on other pages of 
the site as well. For instance this rather macabre 
example of a glory:

   
 http://www.philiplaven.com/p2c.html

   Fig. 4 may be the first image of a glory 
   observed from space.  It was recorded on 
   28 January 2003 by the MEIDEX (Mediterranean 
   Israeli Dust Experiment) instrument on board 
   the space shuttle Columbia - which tragically 
   burnt up on re-entry into the Earth's atmosphere 
   on 1 February 2003 resulting in the deaths of 
   all 7 members of the crew.   The MEIDEX Science 
   Team at Tel Aviv University found this fascinating 
   image whilst examining the results of MEIDEX and 
   suggests that the term "Astronaut's glory" should 
   be used "in honor of our friends from the 
   Columbia crew".
   


Frank Grimer

Re: ...water into wine...

[RC Macaulay]

Frank, We believe UV plays a crucial role in the " recharge" process 
but .. some " enhancer"  is working behind the scenes in the great 
Shakesperian drama.. perhaps we are watching part of the third act while the 
first has not yet been played out.

Duke University has the socalled "ultimate" FEL lab and has been at it since 
moving the " gun" and the  scientists over from Russia in the 1990's. Their 
work is funded by DOD with a cloak covering by NSA so the chances of looking 
up their skirt is nil. However, they know much more than is announced which 
is crumbs. Their work in UV only begins to cast a shadow over some of their 
advances in the spectrum sciences portion of particle physics.They have had 
the time, money and the best resources available yet silence is the only 
thing coming out of N.C.
Richard

- Original Message - 
From: "Grimer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: ...water into wine...


In Mike Carrell's "BLP implementation path" post of
Thu, 14 Apr 2005 he writes:
   ===
   "The BLP process uses certain catalytic ions to
   induce atomic hydrogen atoms to collapse to a
   lower state, called hydrinos. A cascade of
   collapses [but not a runaway chain reaction] to
   many lower states is possible, with yields of
   still higher energy at each stage. At even the
   first stage, the energy yield per atom is greater
   than that necessary to isolate a hydrogen atom
   from a water molecule. This opens the door to
   ordinary water as a fuel, which has been
   demonstrated, as O++ is one of the catalysts.
   The energy from the reactions is primarily as
   deep UV radiation, hence the name Black Light
   Power. Further details and tutorials are available
   a the website, www.blacklightpower.com."
   ==
It seems to me that there could be a connection here to
Chaplin's isomeric clusters.
Also, I believe UV is more intense in the upper atmosphere
so it may be there that the water capacitors primarily get
recharged.
If one is seeking to regenerate water to it's original state
after "cold fog" kinetic energy extraction then blacklight
experience suggests that UV is the best place to start.
Frank Grimer

Re: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

In Mike Carrell's "BLP implementation path" post of  
Thu, 14 Apr 2005 he writes:

===
"The BLP process uses certain catalytic ions to 
induce atomic hydrogen atoms to collapse to a 
lower state, called hydrinos. A cascade of 
collapses [but not a runaway chain reaction] to 
many lower states is possible, with yields of 
still higher energy at each stage. At even the 
first stage, the energy yield per atom is greater 
than that necessary to isolate a hydrogen atom 
from a water molecule. This opens the door to 
ordinary water as a fuel, which has been 
demonstrated, as O++ is one of the catalysts. 
The energy from the reactions is primarily as 
deep UV radiation, hence the name Black Light 
Power. Further details and tutorials are available 
a the website, www.blacklightpower.com."
==

It seems to me that there could be a connection here to
Chaplin's isomeric clusters. 

Also, I believe UV is more intense in the upper atmosphere
so it may be there that the water capacitors primarily get 
recharged.

If one is seeking to regenerate water to it's original state 
after "cold fog" kinetic energy extraction then blacklight
experience suggests that UV is the best place to start.

Frank Grimer

Re: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

At 03:26 pm 14-04-05 +, I wrote:




>   .. represents 
>the inverse of a black body, viz a white body or 
>a perfect absorber.


CORRECTION - This was badly expressed to put it 
mildly  8-(.


A black body is of course a perfect emitter and
absorber. By a white body I mean an absorber of
the ultraviolet radiation which would otherwise
lead to a ultraviolet catastrophe


..are also white bodies which absorb 
>radiant energy. I believe that this, not quanta, 
>is the solution to the problem of the violet 
>catastrophe.  


That should of course have read "the ultra-violet
catastrophe." I think I must have been thinking of
certain catholic bishops who are indeed a catastrophe. 8-(

Frank Grimer

Re: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

Having discovered the connection between water 
and the speed of light I felt it might be 
valuable to have another look at the three vapour 
pressure power relations. 

(see http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html#tv )

In the first post  of the ...upon the clouds of 
heaven... thread (Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 10:05:59) 
I pointed out that the three powers, 4, 8 and 12, 
could be dissected into a "common factor and the 
'la difference'", viz.

  VP£[4]^n 
 
where the  GBP sign represents proportionality; 
n represents the dimensionality (i.e. 1, 2 or 3)

Rather than using vapour pressure, the external 
kinetic energy,  as the LHS variable it is more 
revealing to use its reciprocal, E, the internal 
strain energy, which gives us 

  E£[-4]^(-n)

And in view of the connection between light 
speed and water it is not difficult to see the 
E  £  {-4} bit of these three equations represents 
the inverse of a black body, viz a white body or 
a perfect absorber. Think of light as entering 
in the chunks of vapour and being totally 
internally reflected in a kind of three dimensional 
vortex to form the clusters Chaplin illustrates 
on his website. Presumably these are the structures 
that store the strain energy, the inner cores in 
compression and the outer sheaths in tension.

Now I don't suppose that water vapour chunks are 
the only white bodies. I believe that Jones's epos 
(or my materons) are also white bodies which absorb 
radiant energy. I believe that this, not quanta, 
is the solution to the problem of the violet 
catastrophe.  

I almost feel sorry for Quetzalcoatl - but not quite. 
I shall get great pleasure from watching him and his 
diabolical acolytes squirm.  8-)

Cheers

Frank Grimer

Re: water into wine

[RC Macaulay]

Jones suggested trying microwaves at the resonant frequency of water ( 
22Ghz) to aim down the hollow shaft.
 
Hmmm. That would take a calibrated tube diameter. We had thought of 
installing thin wall tubing inside the hollow shaft coming in from the top, but 
surrendered the idea in favor of bringing a tube in from the bottom of the 
containment vessel that we would use for feeding O3 + isotopes and 
exotics into the base of the vortex instead of the top through the hollow shaft. 

 
The task becomes intriguing in that when a vortex is induced by the high 
speed rotating member, the base of the vortex is inverted and the vacuum in the 
zone plays an interesting role in that it permits feeding powders as well as 
gas/liquid chemicals
 
Richard
 
 
<>

Re: water into wine

[Jones Beene]

--- RC Macaulay  wrote:

> BlankAs our applied research continues on an
> inductor that generates higher rotational speed
> vortexes up to 10,000RPM, one of our tasks include
> designing a hollowshaft unit that will permit firing
> a UV laser light directly into the center cone of
> the vortex together with a  sonic gun that can shoot
> sound down the hollow shaft .

Richard,

Since you are going to have a hollow shaft, it makes
since to make the I.D. of the shaft of a particular
size, if possible. That rationale is so that you can
also try using microwaves at the resoant frequency of
the water molecule, which is 22 Ghz. If you make the
ID a quarter wavelength to this - less than a cm. then
you have all the bases covered. Hey, it is probably
possible to figure out a way to overlay all of these
inputs into an active region!

Jones

Re: water into wine

[RC Macaulay]

As our applied research continues on an inductor that generates higher 
rotational speed vortexes up to 10,000RPM, one of our tasks include designing a 
hollowshaft unit that will permit firing a UV laser light directly into the 
center cone of the vortex together with a  sonic gun that can shoot 
sound down the hollow shaft .
 
As the movie Dirty Harry ..Danny Glover.. says " I gotsta know"
 
Richard
 
<>

Re: water into wine

[RC Macaulay]

The thought of water having properties in the order of a capacitor begs the 
question of HOW or what exactly triggers the discharge. Thinking of the energy 
discharged across the duration of a hurricane or tornado is astounding 
because an actual buildup of energy occurs as  the storm 
intensifies. 
What is the triggering mechanism, and what is the mechanism that " dampens" 
the intensity until the vortex collapses to calm?
A hurricane in its awesome power DOES NOT discharge like a capacitor.. it 
continues to maintain and increase charge as it progresses.
The mechanism may NOT be the obvious.It may be a minor  temperature 
differential but it may be something much more elusive yet staring us in the 
face with a smile as nature often does. 
I have often considered the migrating geese and their ability to remain 
airborne for extended time. The V formation and the 
"honking" could be  more than a subtle clue. The V formation provides 
the trigger to create vortexes the geese use to remain aloft with little energy 
consumption. The Geese may use infrared sensors in their beaks to locate the 
vortexes.
 
BUT!! why the honk? Is there more to the sound than 
we realize beside geese talk for company on a long  vacation?
Do sonics play a role in triggering or sustaining a vortex? In our 
tests of " shapes" that induce water vortexes, it seems the size of the shape is 
not important, it is the configuration ..we use very small parabolic shapes 
yhat can induce the generation of a vortex which in turn can release  a 
great amount of energy. Segments of parabolas have concentrating features as 
demonstrated by a rock group using amplifiers and parabolic speakers. Light 
sources concentrate at the base of a mirrored parabola regardless of the 
direction they enter. 
SL and sonifusion use sound to trigger the SL  energy release.. but.. 
is it sound or light that is the triggering mechanisn?
Could it be the sound acts like a  fuse in a horwitzer and the 
resultant UV light be the gunpowder that produces the SL effect?
The SL effect can  repeatedly cycle as long as a bubble and sound are 
present. A hurricane magnifies over water  and decays over land.( Tornados 
form over land as well as water). but are we sure it is the land mass that 
stalls the winds that actually diminishes the energy release and it collapses 
like a discharged capacitor.
 
We have clues to finding Mr. Nobody (some describe him by his initials 
CENR).. He could be anywhere.. may even be lurking in this group..Only the 
shadow knows.
 
Richard
 
 
<>

Re: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

When I followed up Jones's suggestion that the binding energy 
of the water is 498 calories...

===
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/phase.html#c5

   If the heat of vaporization of water at 100°C is 539 cal., 
   then subtracting the 41 calorie work component suggests that 
   the actual binding energy of the water molecules at 100°C is 
   539 - 41 = 498 calories.
===

 ...it struck me that since this value is so close to 5 
times the number of calories required to raise the temperature 
from 0 to 100 degrees C, someone would have noticed and made 
the necessary connection to the possibility of volume and area 
dimensionality.

I suppose 5 is not a particularly suggestive ratio - unlike 3 
say which immediately suggests Cartesian dimensions - and a 
difference of 0.4 per cent is not that small. And in view of 
the complete failure of anyone to spot the weird water power 
laws given on Chaplin's website suggests that people just 
don't think about such things with sufficient curiosity and 
persistence to arrive at the correct conclusion.

Musing on the dimensionality and binding energy fit I 
remembered a rather better known case of a weird coincidental 
conjunction [an appropriate word because of its astronomical 
other world overtones ;-) ], namely, the proximity of the 
velocity of light to a value of 3.

Google calculator gives  the speed of light as 299 792 458 m/s

which is only 0.07% different from 300 000 000 m/s.

Now some might be thinking. "Grimer has really lost it 
this time. Doesn't he realise that if light was expressed 
in different units, miles per second say, this coincidence 
would completely disappear."

Quite so - which suggests that the key lies in the units 
that the speed of light is expressed - i.e. the key lies 
in the way that the metric system was set up.

But some might reply. "The connection between the metric 
measurement of length and the second is completely  
arbitrary. You have nothing more than a coincidence."

Mmmm. but there *is* a subtle connection between 
the metric measurement of length and the second.

And this connection conjoins light and water - which 
must explain how water is able to store light in the 
form of positive and negative strain energy.

 ===
 The original definition of the gram was the 
 mass of 1 cm³ of water at its maximum density 
 (at 4 °C). This idea was carried over into 
 the SI system so that the kilogram is the mass 
 of 1000 cm³ of water, and this volume is 
 defined as the liter, so that 1 liter of water 
 has a mass of 1 kilogram
 ===

The cubic centimetre deals with the length part -
but what's all this with the gram? What on earth do 
grams have to do with seconds?

Well, mass is a measure of inertia. And both Ing.Saviour 
and I have independently shown that the dimensions of 
mass are the reciprocal of velocity, i.e. time/length. 
Go to his website and look up the back posts if you 
want a blow by blow account. 

It can be concluded therefor that the proximity of c 
to 3.10^n is not simply a coincidence, but a clue to 
an intimate relationship between light and water. 
Graneau has recognised this but has restricted his 
vision to sunlight, i.e. visible light. Vortex's 
resident guru, Horace, has outflanked this suggestion 
by recognising  that other electromagnetic radiations, 
such as microwaves, might be more convenient.

I trust that other Vorts will be able to contribute 
to these developing concepts as constructively as 
Jones, Horace and Richard.

Cheers,

Frank Grimer

 ===
 dixitque Deus fiat lux et facta est lux 
 ===

Re: water into wine

[RC Macaulay]

FW Lew,  interesting gif 's  shown on your link. 
 
You mention reversing the rotation of a vortex. We have a plexiglas test 
tank used for observing the generation of a vortex by a mixer.. see www.gasmastrrr.com for a view of the vortex 
pattern induced by a 3450 RPM rotating member.
 
Using a 3 phase motor permits us to reverse the phase and observe counter 
or clockwise rotation of the vortex . Being in the  northern hemisphere we 
notice a difference in the spiral of the vortex when clockwise rotation is 
inducing the vortex.
The dynamics of the " seething" cauldron of mixing motion produced in the 
glass tank demonstrates the energy released. The vortex produced actually causes 
some of the plexiglas bottom to vanish by electron action.
 
. A visual of the spiral vortices spun off the main vortex column can 
be seen  because the entrained air permits the vortices to be visible. 
We have a large tank with viewing windows for tests of larger HP units ( 5- 100 
HP) that we use for our continued applied research in  testing " shapes" 
of various vacuum induction producing units. Some of the test logs are 
awesome.
For example. Aeration of  wastewater in a  small plant  
bybubbling compressed air into the basin uses  a set of 20HP blowers to produce 
the required air volume to transfer oxygen in sufficent quanities to aerate 
the basin over a 24 hour time frame.
 
 We tested an air induction unit of 5HP and achieved better oxygen 
transfer rate results than with the two 20HP blowers. The air induction feeder 
mixer literally lifted the bottom solids up into the spiral vortex and  
recirculated the entire basin water past the rotating member as it feed air at 
velocity shear of 105 f/p/s. Attempts to calculate  the oxygen transfer 
rate we recorded via a DO analyzer was a waste of time because the empirical 
data developed over time that was used to derive the math formula was in such 
conflict with the DO recordings.
 
These years of data collected by tests of various shapes are beginning to 
mature into some interesting new ideas on ultrahigh speed rotation  for 
inducing vortexes. Our tests to date on these high speed units have been 
hindered by failures of the mechanical drives. Speeding up the rotation past 
3450 RPM up  to max of 10,000 RPM using sheaves and VFD drive control has 
brought us a whole new set of problems with premature failure. 
 
In thr real world of industrial products, a manufacturer like us must first 
demonstrate the device will run without failure for the time it takes to 
amortize the investment. As in the case of stockbrokers, the users want to 
overcome the cost in under two years and in more and more cases they want a max 
of 6 months recovery of costs.
 
All of which makes life most exciting to the designer while  the 
vortex mystery play moves to the next act.
 
Richard
 
<>

Re: water into wine

[FHLew]

r such additions apparently has to do with subtle forces creating 
balance and harmony in the natural world. Practitioners who have the patience to 
follow Steiner's detailed instructions have claimed significant 
results.Medicine For The Earth: Biodynamic 
Preparations   Rudolf Steiner pointed out that a new science 
of cosmic influences would have to replace old, instinctive wisdom and 
superstition. Out of his own insight, he introduced what are known as biodynamic 
preparations.Naturally occurring plant and animal materials are combined in 
specific recipes in certain seasons of the year and then placed in compost 
piles.These preparations bear concentrated forces within them and are used 
to organize the chaotic elements within the compost piles. When the process is 
complete, the resulting preparations are medicines for the Earth which draw new 
life forces from the cosmos.Two of the preparations are used directly in the 
field, one on the earth before planting, to stimulate soil life, and one on the 
leaves of growing plants to enhance their capacity to receive the light. Effects 
of the preparations have been verified scientifically.
 
  Nutritionasl 
Science:    http://lewfh.tripod.com/nutritionalscience/The 
Farm As The Basic Unit Of Agriculture   In his Agriculture 
course, Rudolf Steiner  posed the ideal of the self-contained farm - that 
there should be just the right number of animals to provide manure for 
fertility, and these animals should, in turn, be fed from the farm.We can 
seek the essential gesture of such a farm also under other circumstances. It has 
to do with the preservation and recycling of the life-forces with which we are 
working. Vegetable waste, manure, leaves, foodscraps, all contain precious 
vitality which can be held and put to use for building up the soil if they are 
handled wisely. Thus, composting is a keyactivity in Biodynamic work.The 
farm is also a teacher, and provides the educational opportunity to imitate 
natures wise self-sufficiency within a limited area.Plant Life Is 
Intimately Bound Up With The Life Of The SoilBiodynamics recognizes that 
soil itself can be alive, and this vitality supports and affects the quality and 
health of the plants that grow in it. Therefore, one of Biodynamics fundamental 
efforts is to build up stablehumus in our soil through 
composting.Cosmic RhythmsThe light of the sun, moon, planets and 
stars reaches the plants in regular rhythms. Each contributes to the life, 
growth and form of the plant. By understanding the gesture and effect of each 
rhythm, we can time our ground preparation, sowing, cultivating and harvesting 
to the advantage of the crops we are raising.Reading The Book Of 
NatureEverything in nature reveals something of its essential character 
in its form and gesture. Careful observations of nature - in shade and full sun, 
in wet and dry areas, on different soils, will yield a more fluid grasp of 
theelements. So eventually one learns to read the language of nature. And 
then one can be creative, bringing new emphasis and balance through specific 
actions.Practitioners and experimenters over the last seventy years have 
added tremendously to the body of knowledge known as 
Biodynamics. Comments:  
   My  
dynamised  version of soiless farming , is essentially based on serially 
potentised cell-salts( derived from organic nutrient extracts ) in vortices 
of  structured water created by clock - wise and 
anti-clock-wisewhirlpooling in  a washing machine. Steiner might have 
found there was SOME THICKENING OF THE NUTRIENT SOLUTION by this directional 
alternating centrifuging method.. Together with the coconut husk - highly 
absorbent, rich in Potash and a consistent pH ( in the form of CHIPS or COCO 
FIBRE DUST - coir pith blocks )  and charcoal, the combination will form 
the compost , the process initiated by the vibratory signatures of 
cell-saltsfound in organic nutrients.
   The 
highly sensitive,electromagnetic layers ofstructured water, provide 
efficient  receptors for Cosmic Harmonics of vibratory  Forms and 
Nutrients for Biological Transmutation. The receptacle for the plant is the 
COCONUT itself. Holes are drilled in the receptacle foraeration of 
the root system.   Perhaps you might want 
to know how I dynamise by generating a liquidvortex in a washing 
machine. 
Please click Vortex: Generation of a Liquid Vortexhttp://lewfh.tripod.com/coloursarecodedfrequenciesinphotonicbandgapcrystalstructures/With 
regrads Lew
 
 
 

  - Original Message ----- 
  From: 
  RC Macaulay 
  
  To: vortex-l@eskimo.com 
  Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 11:32 
  AM
  Subject: Re: water into wine
  
  Thanks Frank and Jones, I often use the GSU physics website for 
  reference.
   
  From the series of posts on this thread I suggest water has the ability 
  to mimic the  energy storage ability like a capacitor has the 
  ability to store an electric charge. From our work u

Re: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

At 10:32 pm 10-04-05 -0500, Richard wrote:

> Thanks Frank and Jones, 

> I often use the GSU physics website for reference.
>
> From the series of posts on this thread I suggest 
> water has the ability to mimic the  energy storage
> ability like a capacitor has the ability to store 
> an electric charge. From our work using vortex 
> mixing some interesting observations have been 
> logged over the years that suggest this ability of 
> water to store energy. The total energy stored 
> seems to arrive  from other than hydrostatic or 
> induced head unless the energy stored has a 
> cumulative property of its own. 


I think you are dead right - and I think I know how it
does it - which will be the subject of a new forthcoming
post on the connection between water and the speed of light. 

Watch this space  8^)


> We often use " shapes" upstream of the regime to induce 
> a vortex ahead of the mixing regime or channel.  In some 
> installations this induced vortex seems to release energy 
> on its own which greatly assists the mixing. The standard 
> formula used in mixing is  by calculating for G  (the 
> mixing velocity gradient)  estimated as the square root 
> of the horsepower of the mixing motor divided by the volume 
> of the mixing regime  times the viscosity of water assumed 
> as  .235

> The superior mixing results using " these vortex inducing 
> shapes can be demonstrated by introducing dye with the 
> chemical and observing the downstream results.
>
> Granted that horsepower is horse hockey and torque is what 
> a mule has in his rear, the formula for input horsepower vs 
> mixing intensity simply doesn't " hold water" pun intended.
>
> Frank's math goes a long way to addressing the mystery


In the words of your great president, Ronald Reagan: 
   "you ain't seen nothing, yet!" 

Cheers,

Frank Grimer


 =
 And let us all renew our commitment. Renew our 
 pledge to day by day, person by person, make 
 our country and the world a better place to live. 
 Then when the nations of the world turn to us and 
 say, "America, you are the model of freedom and 
 prosperity." We can turn to them and say, 
 "you ain't seen nothing, yet!" 
 =

Re: water into wine

[RC Macaulay]

Thanks Frank and Jones, I often use the GSU physics website for 
reference.
 
From the series of posts on this thread I suggest water has the ability to 
mimic the  energy storage ability like a capacitor has the ability to 
store an electric charge. From our work using vortex mixing some interesting 
observations have been logged over the years that suggest this ability of water 
to store energy. The total energy stored seems to arrive 
 from other than hydrostatic or induced head unless the energy stored has a 
cumulative property of its own. 
 
We often use " shapes" upstream of the regime to induce a 
vortex ahead of the mixing regime or channel.  In some 
installations this induced vortex seems to release energy on its own 
which greatly assists the mixing. The standard formula used in mixing is  
by calculating for G  (the mixing velocity gradient)  estimated as the 
square root of the horsepower of the mixing motor divided by the volume of the 
mixing regime  times the viscosity of water assumed as  
.235
The superior mixing results using " these vortex inducing shapes can be 
demonstrated by introducing dye with the chemical and observing the downstream 
results.
 Granted that horsepower is horse hockey and torque is what a mule 
has in his rear, the formula for input horsepower vs mixing intensity simply 
doesn't " hold water" pun intended.
 
Frank's math goes a long way to addressing the mystery
 
Richard
 
 
<>

Re: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

To recap from a few posts previous in this thread, we have the 
quasi-Fluid phase providing 2 dimensions of strain energy, and
us providing one dimension of strain energy to feed the 
voracious quasi-Solid phase with its 3 square meals 
(correction: that should of course be 3 cubic meals) of strain
energy ).

So, in taking water from 0 to 100 we feed it with 100 calories
(not to be confused with the kilo-calories of dieting Vorts)
in order to raise the balance point from 300 calories of fat 
and 200 calories of muscle to 500 calories of fat. 

But to get the water to fly (vapourize) we have to boil off this
fat with 500 more calories (latent heat).

Unfortunately the fat bastard is demanding 540 calories before he
will get out of bed - So what's with the extra 8 percent?

This had me well stumped until Jones Beene yelling "SHAZAM" 
transmogrified into Captain Marvel and came flying to the rescue 
with:

===
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/phase.html#c5

   In the process of vapourization of water, a large amount 
   of energy must be added to overcome the remaining cohesive 
   forces between the molecules and an additional amount of 
   energy goes into PdV work to expand the gas from its very 
   small liquid volume to the volume occupied by the resulting 
   vapour.

PdV work during vapourization at 100 deg C:

(1.013 x 10^5 N/m^2)(22.4 x 373/273 x 10^3 cm^3/mole)
-
 (18 gm/mole)(10^6 cm^3/m^3)

 = 172 J/gm = 41 cal/grm

   If the heat of vaporization of water at 100°C is 539 cal., 
   then subtracting the 41 calorie work component suggests that 
   the actual binding energy of the water molecules at 100°C is 
   539-41=498 calories.
===

I think that even Horace may cast a blind eye to 2 calories 
in 500, eh!  ;-)

Cheers

Frank Grimer

Re: water into wine

[Grimer]

At 09:10 pm 09-04-05 -0500, Richard wrote:

> Frank, 

> I have been studying the posts on this thread 
> with ever increasing interest. 


That's nice.  8^)


> Finally, a simple like me DID grasp your simplified math.


Don't undersell yourself, Richard. You are possibly the only
Vort apart from Jones who has grasped the thread's significance. 

Of course, you have a professional interest in water ...and all 
its works ...and all its pumps (that's a pun which will only be 
appreciated by those familiar with the baptismal ritual  ) 
which means that you are "good ground" for new insights.


> and " shazzam" I saw another side.


Not knowing what  "shazzam" meant I googled.

  =
  Traveling across the country in an RV, teen ager 
  Billy Batson and his adult companion, Mentor, 
  would encounter various situations that would 
  require their help. Whenever their help was needed, 
  a flashing light on the dashboard of the RV would 
  start beeping and blinking (Holy Batphone!) and 
  would summon the elders (Solomon, Hercules, Atlas, 
  Zeus, Achilles, and Mercury), who would give him 
  some cryptic advice needed for the emerging 
  situation. By yelling the word, "SHAZAM" (the word 
  is an acronym for all of the elders' names), 
  Billy would turn into Captain Marvel, an adult hero 
  with the power of flight, super speed, and super 
  strength. As Captain Marvel, he would use his powers 
  to capture criminals, save those in distress, and 
  right any other wrongs that came up. 
  =

Cheers

Frank

 
 alia vero ceciderunt in terram bonam 
 

Re: water into wine

[RC Macaulay]

Frank, I have been studying the posts on this thread with ever increasing 
interest. Finally, a simple like me DID grasp your simplified math and " 
shazzam" I saw another side.
 
Richard
 
<>

Re: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

The following section continues the analysis
started in previous posts.

===
With reference to the volume change versus 
temperature relation shown in the third Figure
on the page at. 

http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/strange.html#tv

..I now realise that Vesica Pisces is a 
bit of a red herring (pun intended) and that 
from a mechanics point of view 
[though not perhaps from a mystical pov ;-) ] 
there is a more revealing way of expressing 
this relation.

The Vesica Pisces (VP) relation on Professor
Chaplin's web-site is,

 V = a constant.(T)^(sq.rt 3)  

where V is the volume increase above 
the volume at 4 degrees Centigrade
T is the temperature degrees above 4 deg C.

Since, for practical purposes the specific 
heat of water is constant between 4 and 
100 deg C we can substitute the variable 
Energy (E) for temperature in the above
equation.

V = a constant.(E)^(sq.rt 3)

But V = L^3, so substituting for V and squaring 
both sides gives,

L^6  =  a constant.(E)^3

Taking the cube root of both sides gives,

L^2  =  a constant.E

But L^2 (more specifically dL^2) is a linear strain 
energy epsilon squared, 

i.e. a one dimensional strain energy.

How does this fit in with what has gone before 
in previous posts in this thread?

I am delighted to say it fits like Cinderella's 
slipper.  8-)

Allowing the volume of water to expand by lowering
the Compreture (increasing the temperature} leads
to a three-dimensional strain-energy requirement 
by the quasi-Solid phase (the molecular cell phase)
in relative compression. But two of these strain-
energy dimensions are provided by the compression 
of the quasi-Fluid two-dimensional phase in 
relative tension. This leaves a one-dimensional 
strain energy to be provided.

To put it in another way. Two thirds of the 
energy needed to expand the water between 
4 deg and 100 deg C is provided internally 
by a shift in the internal energy balances 
between phases and the remaining one third 
is provided externally by us. 

===

The above is the technical bit - but it is worth
while considering the implications of the way it
was found. 

Now nothing is easier than playing around with the
algebra in physics to get different forms. The 
trouble is, one has to have an insight into what the
form means. For example, consider that famous 
expression   

[1 - v^2/c^2]

If we rewrite it as [(c^2 - v^2)/c^2] then any
mathematically unchallenged schoolboy will immediately
want to recast the (c^2 - v^2) as (c - v).(c + v).
But what does that mean physically. Until we can have
some kind of physical model in our minds - something
like a velocity strain, say [whatever that might mean ;-)]
then there is no point is presenting it in that way. 

Now it is possible to go from the maths to the physics 
but it's easier to go from the physics to the mathematics
and when one does the maths generally becomes so simple
that it virtually disappears. Indeed its disappearance 
is a sign that one is looking at the phenomena face to 
face so to speak - and not through a glass, darkly.

In the above case we have

 strain energy  =  a constant. calorific energy.

If we measure strain energy and calorific energy in the 
same unit then the constant becomes 1 and the maths has
completely evapourated.

In the case of the VP relation above, it was an ability
to visualise water as a cellular structure with the water
molecules phase as the three dimensional material analogous 
to clay particles, and the cell interaction phase as the 
two-dimensional skin phase analogous to high pF pore water
that gave insight into the need to recast the VP graph in
simpler dimensional terms.

Cheers

Frank Grimer

Re: water into wine

[Jones Beene]

RC Macaulay writes,

"Interesting to watch a skilled bricklayer use a " certain"
type trowel to remove very old mortar from a used brick.
notice very carefully that he strikes the brick near the old
mortar and " shazzaam!!" the mortar instantly releases from
the brick. Once had an old timer say he had a certain trowel
that " sang" when he struck the brick a certain way so he
could feel the brick resonate in his hand.and the mortar
would release."


Richard,

...and all Vos who are interested in that fine-line between
art, skilled-craftsmanship and science... especially as is
evidenced in the building trades... and matter of fact -
ancient building trades, going back centuries.

I lived for a while in San Miguel de Allende in central
Mexico, and can attest to one of the most amazing and
relatively unknown skills in bricklaying... a skill and a
beautiful end-result that literally has to be seen in order
to be believed.

Unless you have seen these brilliantly constructed dome
roofs which are common everywhere there, from middle income
houses up -- and this is in the middle of very active
earthquake and volcano zones, then you will think that my
description of how they are built is some kind of "fish
story."

Some of the Colonial buildings, which are all over the
highlands of central Mexico are over 400 years old and have
withstood earthquakes in the mid-8 range - yet they are
shallow domed roofs going up many floors - called "boveda"
ceilings and made from local brick and mortar according to
ancient recipes with no reinforcement whatever. I did a
quick google and found some images at the bottom of this
page.
http://www.vrbo.com/13340

OK that part about shallow unreinforced brick domes is
believable, as domes and arches are inherently strong, even
shallow ones made of brick - especially with thick adobe
walls to carry the downward stress.

But here is the kicker. These domes are built, layer on
layer working from the 4 corners of the room (only works
with 4 corners) to the center in thin layered stacked arches
(large rooms, some over 1000 sq ft) and get this... NO FORM
whatever is used !! The bricklayers (bovedistas who start
doing this when they are pre-teens) work fast in teams of
8-10, standing on flimsy scaffolds, using no wood or other
form under the dome to hold the advancing brickwork, but
have developed from ancient times this very tacky glue-like
mortar which has to be mixed in small batches continuously a
few kilos at a time and then used within 5 minutes or
less... it is all natural, not very strong except in
compression and dries instantly. The mortar has a special
name I can't recall but is mostly composed of "cal" (their
name for the local lime   which BTW gives California its
name- i.e. lime-kiln) and this tacky mortar will hold an
advancing row of unsupported brick against gravity on a very
slight angle long enough for the whole-layered-arc row to be
put in place over ten minutes or so - after which it holds
on its own, as an nearly flat arch... but prior to that you
have all these bricks pretty much suspended in space held by
the gluey cal - it has to be seen to be believed.

OK that's my building-trade-tale for this date but it's no
April-fools joke either... the scientific 'angle' in this is
that there must be something in the local limestone which
provides this amazing gluey property  quien sabe?

Jones

Re: water into wine

[RC Macaulay]

Tensile strength of concrete.
 
Interesting to watch a skilled bricklayer use a " certain" type trowel to 
remove very old mortar from a used brick.
notice very carefully that he strikes the brick near the old mortar and " 
shazzaam!!" the mortar instantly releases from the brick.
Once had an old timer say he had a certain trowel that " sang" when he 
struck the brick a certain way so he could feel the brick resonate in his 
hand.and the morter would release. 
 
Richard
 
<>

Re: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

Consider the following mechanical arrangement.

Set B (3 rods)
   Set A (2 rods)
 I==I 
 I===I  I
 --->I   I==I<---
 I===I  I
 I==I

A set of two rods (Set A) is forced against a set of three 
rods (Set B)

If the strain of A is 3.dL then the strain of B is 2.dL

The strain energy of Set A is 2.[(3.dL)^2] = 18.dL

The strain energy of Set B is 3.[(2.dL)^2] = 12.dL

So set A contains 1.5 times more strain energy than Set B.

Now the forces on the interface plate represented by the 
five I's in a vertical line are equal and opposite.

Consider a small displacement (d2L) of this interface to 

the left.

Set B will expand and take up 3.[(2.d2L)^2] = 12.d2L 
units of strain energy from the environment.

Set A will contract and give out 2.[(3.d2L)^2] = 18.d2L 
units of strain energy to the environment.

So the net strain energy given out to the environment
by the movement to the left is 6.d2L and a movement
to the left is exothermic.

Conversely the net strain energy taken in from the 
environment by a similar movement to the right is 
6.d2L and a movement to the right is endothermic.

Most importantly, the ratio of the tensile strain 
energy to the compression strain energy is 18/12 = 1.5

-

Now the above analysis is the first half of 
understanding the Graneau effect. The second half is the 
recognition that, from a Systems viewpoint water, is in 
the same state as very dry clay - but at a low hierarchy 
in the Diphase Hierarchical system (references 1, 2, 
and 3)*

As clay dries the Fluid Phase goes into relative tension, 
the Solid Phase into relative compression. The focus point 
for the pore water tension is pF6+ which is an enormous 
tension of the order of 15000 psi.

At some point in the drying out of clays pore water in 
relatively lower pF regions within the clay evaporates 
and leaves a thin skin of very high pF pore water 
enveloping the grains like a thin continuous coat of 
streched rubber. In effect the three dimensional clay 
mineral grains are being squeezed together by a two 
dimensional skin resembling a very convoluted rubber 
bubble.

Eventually the skin-like moisture layer ruptures, and 
the compression in the clay mineral grains is 
explosively released as described in a previous 
posting.

Graneau's experimental results have provided the 
quqntitative experimental evidence which opens one's 
eyes to the fact that liquid water has the same structure. 
However obvious it may be now, without the experimental 
results it is very unlikely that one would make one of 
necessary James Burke's Connections.

For liquid water the within molecular phase (groupings 
1 to N molecules) are in compression by the between 
group phase skin which is in tension. The fact that 
liquid water reaches its maximum density at 4 degrees 
Centigrade which then starts to decrease, is the 
clearest evidence that the intermolecular skin phase 
is at the point of collapse. 

In bulk water negative feedback from surrounding 
regions means that the collapse of liquid water to 
the much larger volume of ice is gradual and contained. 
In the Graneau effect it sudden and uncontrolled. 

Now the intermolecular quasi-Fluid skin phase or 
internal surface is in two dimensional tension. The 
infra-molecular quasi-Solid Phase on the other hand 
is in three dimensional compression. 

But this is the case considered in the example at 
the top of the page, each dimension being represented 
by a rod.

It is worth repasting Graneau's experimental results 
from a previous post.


http://users.erols.com/iri/FutureEnergyTech.html

 Cold Fog Discovery

Many other systems exist today, in a research, 
development, or theoretical stage, which also 
convert potential energy into useful work. The 
first example is the "Cold Fog" invention of 
Dr. Peter Graneau from Northeastern University 
that converts chemical bond energy into kinetic 
energy. Intermolecular bond energy in water is 
an available amount of energy estimated at 2.3 
kJ/g. When injected with a high voltage capacitor 
discharge of 39.8 Joules, normal rainwater is 
accelerated into a cold fog that loses about 
31.2 Joules of low-grade heat and a comparable 
amount (29.2 Joules) in fog kinetic energy output. 
As reported in the Journal of Plasma Physics,[3] 
the output energy thus exceeds the input energy 
by about 100% creating a 2-to-1 overunity 
condition favorable for reduction to a motorized 
conversion system.
 
 Capacitor Input
   Energy: 39.8 joules
 !
 V
Fog Kinet

RE: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

At 12:28 pm 30-03-05 -0500, Keith wrote:

>Horace writes:
>>It would be very useful if someone who has access to the paper would
>>summarize "Arc-liberated chemical energy  exceeds electrical input energy",
>>Journal of Plasma Physics, Vol.63, part 2, p.115 (2000).
>
>Here's an online source
>
>http://journals.cambridge.org/bin/bladerunner?
REQUNIQ=1112200824&REQSESS=512365&117000REQEVENT=&REQINT1=18654&REQAUTH=0
>
>if for some reason the above link doesn't work, search around


It works.


> Maybe Frank can buy a copy, it's 18USD but only 12GBP, 
> a substantial savings for >the unit impaired (grin).


I've done better than that. On the basis that an engineer
is someone who can do for tuppence what any fool can
do for sixpence I've posted off a request to Harrow library
for the article. They ain't quick - but they're VERY cheap.  ;-)

When it arrives I'll scan it in and put it on my Yahoo Groups 
site so that anyone who's interested can access it. 

Frank

Re: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

At 05:28 am 30-03-05 -0900, you wrote:
>Conjecture: microwaving degassed deionized water is just as effective as
>exposing it to sunlight for the purposes of increasing energy yield when
>exploding it in a Graneau style gun.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner  


Sounds plausible to me. It even suggests that one might
regenerate the water fuel on board. Now that would be 
impressive. It might also be necessary if it was found
that the water had to have the kind of purity requirement
typical of nano-technology.

Frank Grimer

Re: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

At 05:02 am 30-03-05 -0900, Horace wrote:



>Scientific research should not be biased by belief systems, though of
>course it is.  It is a search for truth, whatever the answers might be.   I
>certainly do agree that engineering and invention on the other hand require
>extreme faith that what is attempted might be possible.  Also, it takes a
>big ego to tackle a big job, and I do appreciate that it is really tough to
>maintain such an ego and such faith when continually attempting the nearly
>impossible.
>
>Regards,
>
>Horace Heffner  


You believe there is such a thing as truth - that's a 
good enough recommendation for me - so let's end this 
vigourous discussion positively on that point of mutual 
agreement. I can see that, like the apostle, Thomas, you 
are not someone to persuaded of any truth easily. 
Never mind. Thomas became a saint for all that.   ;-)

Cheers

Frank

RE: ...water into wine...

[Keith Nagel]

Horace writes:
>It would be very useful if someone who has access to the paper would
>summarize "Arc-liberated chemical energy  exceeds electrical input energy",
>Journal of Plasma Physics, Vol.63, part 2, p.115 (2000).

Here's an online source

http://journals.cambridge.org/bin/bladerunner?REQUNIQ=1112200824&REQSESS=512365&117000REQEVENT=&REQINT1=18654&REQAUTH=0

if for some reason the above link doesn't work, search around

http://journals.cambridge.org

for the "chapter and verse" ( another gratuitous biblical reference for the 
zealots ).

Maybe Frank can buy a copy, it's 18USD but only 12GBP, a substantial savings for
the unit impaired (grin).

The device described on Rich Hull's site is also described in detail in P. 
Graneau's book
Electrodynamics of Metals. I hope Dick has improved the circuit, Graneau was 
using
air core rogowski coils for the current measurements which IMHO can be a 
misleading
way of looking at the currents. Also I am a little surprised he could get away 
with
copper electrodes, when I did this sort of work I was melting tungsten spark
gaps like they were butter.

The circuit is a basic LC circuit with the spark/arc gap being the cannon barrel
you describe. Cap values ranged from 1/4 to 2 microfarads, charge voltages from 
2
to 8 KV. Induction was about 900 microhenries. 

He correctly points out that the currently believed explaination of what
causes the explosion is incorrect ( steam from the arc ), but then goes
on to attempt to shoehorn the Ampere Neuman longitudinal force to fit the
results. Better explainations exist.

K. 

RE: ...water into wine...

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Frank- Water injection was used for the afterburnners.-Ges

RE: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

Further googling on Graneau "cold fog" has turned up this 
interesting paragraph

==
http://www.df.lth.se/~snorkelf/Longitudinal/node3.html

The production of fog and mist has made Peter and Neal 
Graneau suggest that the chemical bonding energy may be 
altered. Recent measurements also indicate that the energy 
released substantially exceeds the energy supplied by the 
arc [28, 29]. Their theory is that the bonding energy of 
very small droplets may be less (i.e. more negative) than 
that of liquid water. The difference in energy would then 
be released during the conversion into fog. Investigations 
indicate that only the smallest droplets explode, a fact 
supporting the theory. 
==

Years ago I carried out a lot of research on glass fibre 
used as a reinforcement. As most Vorts will know, glass 
can't be used as a reinforcement on the macro-scale 
because it is full of surface cracks which weaken it 
disastrously. By drawing it out into a fibre the 
probability of a crack in a given length is reduced to 
negligible proportions. Indeed, one might view the 
development of glass fibre having micro-metre diameters a 
precursor to the science of nano-technology.  8-)

This suggests that the importance of droplet size is in 
its relevance to the presence or absence of internal 
defects - cf. manufacture of chips (silicon not 
potato(e)). 

Interestingly enough, the requirement for explosion of a 
"water bomb" is the inverse of the requirement for the 
explosion of a fission bomb.

Now bulk water might be considered the dynamic equivalent 
of bulk glass. With a material containing multiple cracks 
failure consists of multiple internal crack propagation 
and the and the kinetic energy is contained and rapidly 
degraded to heat. 

Gravel concrete exhibits just such behaviour. Internal 
cracking propagation is very great all that way up to the 
point of maximum stress. Given a stiff enough testing 
machine the cracking continues in a controlled fashion all 
the way now the negative stress strain slope. In short, 
the concrete exhibits quasi-ductile behaviour. Such 
concretes are heterogeneous in their stress strain 
properties. At the macro level of structure they may be 
described as a hard aggregate in a soft matrix. These 
concretes are characterized by relatively high power 
stress strain curves, between 2.5 and 3.1 say, with the 
power being measured from the point of maximum stress as 
origin.

With lightweight concretes where aggregate and matrix have 
the same stiffness, stress-strain curve power is only just 
above one. Hardly any internal cracking occurs up to the 
point of failure which cannot be controlled even by an 
infinitely stiff testing machine. This is because the 
specimen is its own testing machine, so to speak and one 
region of the specimen which is slightly stronger will 
offload its strain into a neigbouring section which is 
slightly weaker. 

Given the above analysis it is clear that the requirements 
for maximising the kinetic energy of cold fog explosions 
are similar to the maximization of the yield of defect 
free silicon chips, i.e. purity and homogeneity of the 
water so that the droplet structures are as identical in 
size and as homogeneous in structure as possible.

I would be surprised if the same kind of considerations 
don't apply to the achievement of successful cold fusion 
as well (cf. Mizuno's use of sintered specimens.

Ideally one needs to prepare droplets just above the 
critical size and then explode them by a change in the 
environment. One can imagine this as being carried out on 
a continuous basis in as jet engine say. Come to think of 
it I seem to have read somewhere that they found injecting 
water into jet engines improved the performance - a case 
of harnessing the Beta-atmosphere without even realising 
it perhaps. Can anyone remember the reference?

Cheers.

Frank Grimer

Re: ...water into wine...

[Horace Heffner]

Conjecture: microwaving degassed deionized water is just as effective as
exposing it to sunlight for the purposes of increasing energy yield when
exploding it in a Graneau style gun.

Regards,

Horace Heffner  

Re: ...water into wine...

[Horace Heffner]

At 1:31 PM 3/29/5, Grimer wrote:
>At 06:45 am 29-03-05 -0900, Horace wrote:
>
>> At 12:40 AM 3/29/5, Grimer wrote:
>
>--
>>> You of all people, Horace, should be well aware of that
>>> since I took the trouble to mail the relevant research
>>> publications to your northern eerie.
>
>
>> The stuff you mailed me did not appear to provide
>> any more information than what you already posted.
>
>
>That's not true. I mailed you the original published
>papers which obviously provided far more information
>than any post I sent to Vortex.
>--
>
>> Most importantly, it did not provide the numerical
>> data to which you say a power-law fit is implied.
>
>Of course it didn't. No publication would have accepted
>the reams of numerical data set out it the International
>Critical Tables.
>
>But the Southampton paper gave a reference to the
>International Critical tables and anyone who doubted the
>experimental fit had only to look them up and check for
>themselves. The whole strength of the power curve evidence
>was the fact it was based on completely independent and
>extremely detailed data of unquestioned authenticity which
>was available to anybody and everybody, and had been for
>yonks.
>
>
>> Unfortunately Chaplin does not provide the numerical
>> data either.
>
>
>For exactly the same reason as I didn't.
>You disappoint me, Horace. 8-(

The feeling is mutual.  8^)

You propose a theory that depends on a curve fit, yet you do not provide
the data, nor correlation inormation, nor a fit comparison to any other
theory.  Your confirmation appears to merely be based upon "eyeballing"  a
log-log graph, which is notorious for data distortion.  The plots I recall
were not straight line, so a pure power law is possibly not the best fit.
A polynomial fit would probably be better.

I take it you want me to do all the leg work and go to the expense to dig
up the data?  Not likely any time soon.  I have a full agenda.


>--
>
>
>--
>>> Let me explain with a simple example which everybody
>>> can follow.
>>>
>>> Consider a tank of water with the following items in
>>> suspension half way up the column. A thin spherical
>>> glass christmas decoration strung to a lead weight.
>>> Cut the string and the lead weight falls to the bottom
>>> of the tank - your "deeper energy well". But what
>>> happens to the glass ball. That doesn't fall to the
>>> bottom of the tank, does it! It rises to the top of
>>> the hill, the surface of the water in the tank.
>
>
>> Where is the free energy cycle in this? How is this
>> analogous?  The > analogy falls down in that here
>> it takes energy to form the bond and energy
>> is released when the bond is broken.
>
>
>Clearly, you haven't even begun to grasp the concept of
>positive and negative strain energy, so unsurprisingly,
>the analogy is no help.

Clearly then your example is not as simple as you claimed.  Again, I ask,
where is the free energy cycle in this?  How is this analogous?



>--
>
>--
>>> The Graneaus are spot on in their contention that
>>> energy is stored in inter-molecular bonds.
>
>> But, the Graneaus do not contend that energy is stored
>> in all chemical bonds, not even in all H2O bonds.  Energy
>> is only stored in *selected* H2O bonds after exposure to
>> sunlight.
>
>I don't think there is any point in pursuing that one
>any further since you have failed to address the question
>of a hierarchy of negative and positive strain energy and
>until you do - you are not going to understand my views.


Not my job.  I have no obligation to address any of your issues, to
understand your views, nor to conform my world view to yours.  8^)  It is
you who trolled for the discourse.  It is your theory.  If you still think
you can provide a simple analogy then let's see it.


>--
>
>
>
>--
>>>Anyway, I don't believe re-energising has anything to do
>>>with the sun or any other more exotic explanation.
>>
>>
>>Citing Graneau doesn't make this case though.
>
>
>Obviously, since I am claiming that Graneau is
>mistaken on this point.

Actually, I now think Graneau may have shifted from his free energy from
condensation-evaporation cycle explanation to a plasma
condensation-ionization cycle explanation.  At least that avoids having the
unpleasant job of reconciling theory with existing steam tables, etc.


>--
>
>--
>> Since using the Graneau approach there is no repeatable
>> closed cycle, the >COP is small, and the input is in the
>> form of e

RE: ...water into wine...

[Horace Heffner]

At 7:21 PM 3/29/5, Keith Nagel wrote:


>Just what the hell _is_ a cold
>fog accelerator anyway??? The mind boggles at such an
>exotic piece of kit (wink).

Maybe not so exotic.  Check out:

   

Regards,

Horace Heffner  

Re: ...water into wine...

[Horace Heffner]

At 6:34 PM 3/29/5, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Horace- Could the water over unity phenomina be the the power of
>Hurricanes? ges-


I don't understand why this is addressed to me as opposed to vortex in
general.  I don't in fact know there does or does not exist a true
overunity phenomenon associated with water, other than nuclear fusion, if
you consider that over unity.

However, on the subject of possible overunity hurricane behavior, there
were a number of very interesting posts on vortex some years back by
Lawrence E Wharton:

   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

which you might be able to find at www.escribe.com/science/vortex.

Regards,

Horace Heffner  

RE: ...water into wine...

[Horace Heffner]

At 7:21 PM 3/29/5, Keith Nagel wrote:

>We're all talking about this, but have any of
>you found and read the actual paper? Just what the hell _is_ a cold
>fog accelerator anyway??? The mind boggles at such an
>exotic piece of kit (wink).

I apparently was under the false impression I had read this article. I
think I have confused it with the material published by Graneau in IE, Vol
2, No 10, p. 59.

I think the statements I have made recently and the 1997 vortex material I
posted was based on an older version of Peter Graneau's theory.   I have
the impression he has since decided the energy comes elimination of the
electron shielding between the nuclei that is represented by the molecular
bond.  He thus implies that ionization of the molecule releases energy in
the form of the repulsion that occurs when like charged nuclei repel, and
thus that the energy to remove the electron sheilding from the bond is less
than that released when the bond is formed.  In other words, ionization of
a molecule's constituants requires less energy than that released when the
molecule is formed from a plasma.

It would be very useful if someone who has access to the paper would
summarize "Arc-liberated chemical energy  exceeds electrical input energy",
Journal of Plasma Physics, Vol.63, part 2, p.115 (2000).

Regards,

Horace Heffner  

Re: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

At 02:06 pm 29-03-05 -0800, Jones wrote:

... 

>If Graneau is listening here is a suggestion  - try using
>superchilled water at about 30,000 psi and around 126 degree
>K in order to get into the water through the ice-3 or ice-9
>regime, after which there should be an enormous phase change
>and double-boost on a discharge of current !  IMHO you
>should get far more than the doubling of energy which you
>now see - perhaps an order of magnitude more. There is a
>possibility that some mixture of cryogenic water with or
>without liquid air, when injected into a diesel engine, can
>substitute for fossil fuel, in whole or in part.
>
>OK. It may be a small possibility... even minuscule, but it
>deserves to be tested experimentally. To me this is the
>future of nanotechnology - fuel nanotechnology which
>capitalizes on the Casimir effect using cheap materials
>(water and air).
>
>Jones
  

Absolutely - and if the promise of the new Toshiba battery 
pans out successfully, it highlights the potential of the 
fledgling field of nano-technology.

Frank

RE: ...water into wine...

[John Steck]

If the poor chap didn't already go on to meet his maker (a gratuitous
reference for the zealots) I would expect a spontaneous discussion of "whirl
power" to emerge right about now.  8^)

-j

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 9:35 PM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: ...water into wine...



Horace- Could the water over unity phenomina be the the power of
Hurricanes? ges-


--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.5 - Release Date: 05/03/29

Re: ...water into wine...

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Horace- Could the water over unity phenomina be the the power of 
Hurricanes? ges-

RE: ...water into wine...

[Keith Nagel]

Hey Fred,

Sounds an easy hypothesis to test. Graneau and company could
just dope the water with a little carbonic acid, and see
if the excess energy increases or returns from spent water.

We're all talking about this, but have any of
you found and read the actual paper? Just what the hell _is_ a cold
fog accelerator anyway??? The mind boggles at such an
exotic piece of kit (wink). 

K. 


-Original Message-
From: Frederick Sparber [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2005 6:22 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: ...water into wine...


Hi Keith, you wrote

> 
> > Hi Horace, you write:
> > However, Graneau and Graneau do
> > indeed suggest there exists some mechanism whereby energy can be stored in
> >  molecular bonds, and that the source of the energy so stored is solar.
>
> Calling Fred Sparber, come in Fred Sparber, here's the
> first experiment that seems to show the effect of
> solar Sparberinos. 
> 
I'm here, Keith.  Older and Wiser on my 72nd Birthday. Happy Birthday to Horace 
Heffner, Vince Cockeram, 
and Martin Fleischmann, too.

I think the proper term for the molecular (solar stored) energy effect is 
called Fluorescence, Keith. :-)

Although it might require the presence of CO2 as a "catalyst": 

CO2 + H2O  <---> H2CO3   (in atmospheric water clusters or liquid water in a 
pan) exposed
to  the solar spectrum.
Photography has been using this "metastable" energy storage effect for almost 
two centuries.

Frederick

 

Re: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

At 06:45 am 29-03-05 -0900, Horace wrote:

> At 12:40 AM 3/29/5, Grimer wrote:

--
>> You of all people, Horace, should be well aware of that
>> since I took the trouble to mail the relevant research
>> publications to your northern eerie.


> The stuff you mailed me did not appear to provide 
> any more information than what you already posted.  


That's not true. I mailed you the original published 
papers which obviously provided far more information 
than any post I sent to Vortex.
--

> Most importantly, it did not provide the numerical 
> data to which you say a power-law fit is implied.

Of course it didn't. No publication would have accepted 
the reams of numerical data set out it the International 
Critical Tables.

But the Southampton paper gave a reference to the 
International Critical tables and anyone who doubted the 
experimental fit had only to look them up and check for 
themselves. The whole strength of the power curve evidence 
was the fact it was based on completely independent and 
extremely detailed data of unquestioned authenticity which 
was available to anybody and everybody, and had been for 
yonks.


> Unfortunately Chaplin does not provide the numerical 
> data either.


For exactly the same reason as I didn't. 
You disappoint me, Horace. 8-(
--


--
>> Let me explain with a simple example which everybody
>> can follow.
>>
>> Consider a tank of water with the following items in
>> suspension half way up the column. A thin spherical
>> glass christmas decoration strung to a lead weight.
>> Cut the string and the lead weight falls to the bottom
>> of the tank - your "deeper energy well". But what
>> happens to the glass ball. That doesn't fall to the
>> bottom of the tank, does it! It rises to the top of
>> the hill, the surface of the water in the tank.


> Where is the free energy cycle in this? How is this 
> analogous?  The > analogy falls down in that here 
> it takes energy to form the bond and energy
> is released when the bond is broken.


Clearly, you haven't even begun to grasp the concept of 
positive and negative strain energy, so unsurprisingly, 
the analogy is no help. 
--

--
>> The Graneaus are spot on in their contention that
>> energy is stored in inter-molecular bonds.

> But, the Graneaus do not contend that energy is stored 
> in all chemical bonds, not even in all H2O bonds.  Energy 
> is only stored in *selected* H2O bonds after exposure to 
> sunlight.

I don't think there is any point in pursuing that one 
any further since you have failed to address the question 
of a hierarchy of negative and positive strain energy and 
until you do - you are not going to understand my views.
--



--
>>Anyway, I don't believe re-energising has anything to do
>>with the sun or any other more exotic explanation.
>
>
>Citing Graneau doesn't make this case though.


Obviously, since I am claiming that Graneau is 
mistaken on this point.
--

--
> Since using the Graneau approach there is no repeatable 
> closed cycle, the >COP is small, and the input is in the 
> form of expensive electrical energy, >there are some serious 
> hurdles remaining to jump to obtain a practical
> device.


Absolutely. But let's not be party poopers. Let's try to 
look on the bright side and believe that the difficulties 
can be overcome. I do.  8-)
--

--
>> In other words, if we can recognise that water is a
>> fuel just like petrol - only a bit different - then
>> as far as I am concerned we have achieved
>> "...water into wine..."  8-)


> Unfortunately, it is not only recognition or belief 
> that is required.  A practical device is required.


I couldn't agree more. A practical device is indeed 
required. You can't turn water into wine without stone 
jars to put it in. But you are never going to develop a 
practical device without belief. Forty years of scientific 
research has taught me that the stronger that belief, 
the more likely you are to succeed.
-

Cheers

Frank Grimer

=
amen quippe dico vobis si habueritis fidem sicut 
granum sinapis dicetis monti huic transi hinc et 
  transibit et nihil inpossibile erit vobis 
=

Re: ...water into wine...

[Jones Beene]

Frederick Sparber writes,

> > Hi Horace, you write:  Graneau does indeed suggest there
exists some mechanism whereby energy can be stored in
molecular bonds, and that the source of the energy so stored
is solar.

> I think the proper term for the molecular (solar stored)
energy effect is called Fluorescence, Keith ...   :-)

Well, there is a fluorescence connection to the Graneau
("big water") experiment, but it is not obvious, nor
necessarily derived from solar exposure.

Graneau may have found excess energy, but that does not mean
that he got the explanation exactly correct. I submit that
the real source of the excess energy in Graneau's work is
ultimately ZPE. Both the energy derived from breaking of
hydrogen bonds in a 260 atom **water cluster** and any
excess mass derived from exposure to cryogenic temperature
would be derived ultimately from ZPE. It matters not that
the bond energy content is calculated as negative or
positive at the outset.

The Casimir force can be restated to be the mechanical
effects of a "particular spatial strata" which can be
repulsive or attractive within a particular "hierarchical
aether spectrum"- which Frank Grimer is calling beta-aether.
The Casimir is also a "vacuum fluctuation," since that
strata is not physically located in our 3-space but instead
is located in the "active vacuum" (reciprocal space) - as
distinguished from the literal meaning of that word,
"vacuum."

The Casimir is also a secondary (or derivative) "field," but
with field-effects which are dictated by its local geometry
in which spatial effects are operating and focusing or
shielding electromagnetic fields and to a lesser extent, the
omnipresent neutron flux. That is why the Casimir force can
be called a derivative form of ZPE - it only dictates how
other primary fields operate at close spacing - in the case
of the beta-aether, we have what seems to be a spacing of
about 2-20 nanometers.

BTW there are some arguments which try to deny the
self-sameness of the Casimir and ZPE - which are often
political (science-agenda ploys), rather than purely
scientific. For present purposes, the Casimir will be
(re)defined to be a subset of ZPE - which, yes, is an agenda
statement, but an accurate one.

It is my contention that the "local geometry" where the
Casimir force is working is related directly to Dirac's epo
field which is the basis of the ZPF (and is basically a
"negative energy" field). According to the expert on Dirac
theory, Don Hotson, the epo acts as if were a BEC. That is
to say, we move through the Dirac epo field "as if it wasn't
there, without any resistance normally, because it acts
uniformly from another impinging dimension, but with
"super-fluidity."

Super-fluidity is a characteristic of a BEC. When in Quantum
Mechanics, we hear of the "froth of virtual positronium" -
we are referring to the interface between normal matter and
this epo-BEC, which interfacial contact causes some
disruption at time scales that are too short to be noticed
normally. The initial geometric problem with this
interpretation of the Casimir being a subset of ZPE ot the
epo-field, is that the epo is based on a particulate-size of
less than one angstrom, while the Casimir is strongest at
about 8 times this linear dimension- or a spherical volume
increase of about 400 hydrogen atoms.

Coincidentally, this is the exact size of the
water-particulate of Graneau's 'active water' --- which is
water which is maximized in these clusters due to exposure
to high altitude cold - and/or solar. The result is more
clusters per unit of water. This is the *Icosahedral Water
Cluster* of 280 atoms, which can be seen on Chaplin' s fine
site:
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/clusters.html

When this structure is violently fractured we have a
mini-Bridgman effect and energy release. As Horace
says -"Bond energy" in a traditional sense is an energy
well, and may be a *lack* of potential energy, not a source
of potential energy, BUT as Frank suggests, it does not
matter if (initially) that bond energy is positive or
negative, because it is thereafter shifted by Casimir power
law acceleration to higher order where the eventual kinetic
effects of our 3-space are always calculated as positive.

If Graneau is listening here is a suggestion  - try using
superchilled water at about 30,000 psi and around 126 degree
K in order to get into the water through the ice-3 or ice-9
regime, after which there should be an enormous phase change
and double-boost on a discharge of current !  IMHO you
should get far more than the doubling of energy which you
now see - perhaps an order of magnitude more. There is a
possibility that some mixture of cryogenic water with or
without liquid air, when injected into a diesel engine, can
substitute for fossil fuel, in whole or in part.

OK. It may be a small possibility... even miniscule, but it
deserves to be tested experimentally. To me this is the
future of nanotechnology - fuel nanotechnology which
capitalizes on the Casimir

Re: ...water into wine...

[FHLew]

Greeting to all members
At 08:47 am 28-03-05 -0900, Horace wrote:
< However, Graneau and Graneau do indeed suggest there exists some 
mechanism whereby energy can be stored in molecular bonds, and that the 
source of the energy so stored is solar.>

 Man is dependant on plants for  stored up energy in the 
form of food. Food is herbal at some stage of its production in Mother 
Nature 's alchemical  laboratory. Cow's meat and milk are formed from 
the grass and fodder the cow fed on.  Plant food is manufactured by the 
vibratory resonance of two solar rays,the Red and the Blue,.with the 
help of chloroplasts during photosynthesis in green leaves.  . Hence, 
energy food derived from plants is the photosynthetic equivalence of a 
musical chord. Botanically or  physiologically, life is a melody.

Light is liquified gas.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn2497
With regards
 Lew

Horace Heffner wrote:
At 12:40 AM 3/29/5, Grimer wrote:
 

At 08:47 am 28-03-05 -0900, Horace wrote:
   

"Bond energy" in a traditional sense is an energy well, a *lack* of
potential energy, not a source of potential energy, unless the bond
constituents are free of the bond or able to bond to other substances and
thereby create a deeper energy well.  However, Graneau and Graneau do
indeed suggest there exists some mechanism whereby energy can be stored in
molecular bonds, and that the source of the energy so stored is solar.
 

The trouble is that "traditional sense" doesn't understand
what's going on. I suppose one can't blame chemists for not
being engineers. One can't expect them to recognise that
there are two types of energy, positive and negative.
Having first been introduced to energy in the form kinetic
energy it's quite uderstandable they don't realise v^2 has a
positive and a negative root. I mean to say, what possible
sense could be made of a negative velocity, eh! (sense can
be made of it but it will take a very perceptive Vortexian
to twig).
It is because chemists aren't engineers that they never
discovered the trinity of power laws for water vapour,
the pressure density law and the vesica pisces law.
These laws were not discovered by accident. They were not
discovered by playing around with data and a calculating
machine. These power laws were discovered from logical
extension of the original research on the stress-strain
properties of concrete presented at an international
symposium at Southampton University - curiously enough,
the same university that gave rise to the research on
Cold Fusion.
You of all people, Horace, should be well aware of that
since I took the trouble to mail the relevant research
publications to your northern eerie.
   


The stuff you mailed me did not appear to provide any more information than
what you already posted.  Most importantly, it did not provide the
numerical data to which you say a power-law fit is implied.
 

You were not the
first person to try and dismiss our striking and
obviously significant power relationships as mere curve
fitting exercises and I don't suppose you will be the
last. All credit to Professor Chaplin, chemist though
he may be, for not only recognising the importance of
the power laws but updating them with more modern data
and presenting them in the clearest way possible on his
excellent web-site.
   


Unfortunately Chaplin does not provide the numerical data either.
 

If chemists thought like engineers - more specifically
engineers who are familiar with the design and
manufacture of prestressed concrete, then they would
analyse their nano structures in terms strain energy,
i.e. epsilon squared. Even though chemists might not
be heaven's gift to mathematics, it would no doubt
occur to those less mathematically challenged that
eps^2 has two roots, -eps and +eps, and they would
realise that "bond energy" can be positive (tensile
say) or negative (compressive, say).
It would occur to them that they are dealing with a
structure which is the analogue of clay, with the
infra-molecular bonds in a state of compressive strain
(clay mineral particles) and the inter-molecular bonds
(pore water) in a state of balancing tensile strain.
Now I worked for six years in the Soil Mechanics
Division of the Road Research Laboratory and am
completely familiar with the pioneering research into
soil moisture pF by work of Croney, Coleman and Black
much of which remains unpublished, not untypical of
government research.
As clay samples are dried out on suction plates and
brought to a high state of pore water tension and
balancing state of clay particle compression a state
is reached (analogous to the failure of concrete in
a "soft" testing machine) where the strain energy is
suddenly released and the specimen explodes in a puff
of clay mineral smoke. This is a macro scale model of
what is happening to Graneau's water.
You talk of a "deeper energy well". Clearly, you
haven't understood the concept of negative energy
I have been plugging in these posts or you would

RE: ...water into wine...

[Horace Heffner]

At 5:21 AM 3/29/5, Frederick Sparber wrote:
> Older and Wiser on my 72nd Birthday. Happy Birthday to Horace Heffner,
>Vince Cockeram,
>and Martin Fleischmann, too.

Happy Birthday to you too Fred!


Regards,

Horace Heffner  

Re: ...water into wine...

[Horace Heffner]

At 12:40 AM 3/29/5, Grimer wrote:
>At 08:47 am 28-03-05 -0900, Horace wrote:
>
>> "Bond energy" in a traditional sense is an energy well, a *lack* of
>> potential energy, not a source of potential energy, unless the bond
>> constituents are free of the bond or able to bond to other substances and
>> thereby create a deeper energy well.  However, Graneau and Graneau do
>> indeed suggest there exists some mechanism whereby energy can be stored in
>> molecular bonds, and that the source of the energy so stored is solar.
>
>
>The trouble is that "traditional sense" doesn't understand
>what's going on. I suppose one can't blame chemists for not
>being engineers. One can't expect them to recognise that
>there are two types of energy, positive and negative.
>Having first been introduced to energy in the form kinetic
>energy it's quite uderstandable they don't realise v^2 has a
>positive and a negative root. I mean to say, what possible
>sense could be made of a negative velocity, eh! (sense can
>be made of it but it will take a very perceptive Vortexian
>to twig).
>
>It is because chemists aren't engineers that they never
>discovered the trinity of power laws for water vapour,
>the pressure density law and the vesica pisces law.
>
>These laws were not discovered by accident. They were not
>discovered by playing around with data and a calculating
>machine. These power laws were discovered from logical
>extension of the original research on the stress-strain
>properties of concrete presented at an international
>symposium at Southampton University - curiously enough,
>the same university that gave rise to the research on
>Cold Fusion.
>
>You of all people, Horace, should be well aware of that
>since I took the trouble to mail the relevant research
>publications to your northern eerie.


The stuff you mailed me did not appear to provide any more information than
what you already posted.  Most importantly, it did not provide the
numerical data to which you say a power-law fit is implied.


>You were not the
>first person to try and dismiss our striking and
>obviously significant power relationships as mere curve
>fitting exercises and I don't suppose you will be the
>last. All credit to Professor Chaplin, chemist though
>he may be, for not only recognising the importance of
>the power laws but updating them with more modern data
>and presenting them in the clearest way possible on his
>excellent web-site.


Unfortunately Chaplin does not provide the numerical data either.


>
>If chemists thought like engineers - more specifically
>engineers who are familiar with the design and
>manufacture of prestressed concrete, then they would
>analyse their nano structures in terms strain energy,
>i.e. epsilon squared. Even though chemists might not
>be heaven's gift to mathematics, it would no doubt
>occur to those less mathematically challenged that
>eps^2 has two roots, -eps and +eps, and they would
>realise that "bond energy" can be positive (tensile
>say) or negative (compressive, say).
>
>It would occur to them that they are dealing with a
>structure which is the analogue of clay, with the
>infra-molecular bonds in a state of compressive strain
>(clay mineral particles) and the inter-molecular bonds
>(pore water) in a state of balancing tensile strain.
>
>Now I worked for six years in the Soil Mechanics
>Division of the Road Research Laboratory and am
>completely familiar with the pioneering research into
>soil moisture pF by work of Croney, Coleman and Black
>much of which remains unpublished, not untypical of
>government research.
>
>As clay samples are dried out on suction plates and
>brought to a high state of pore water tension and
>balancing state of clay particle compression a state
>is reached (analogous to the failure of concrete in
>a "soft" testing machine) where the strain energy is
>suddenly released and the specimen explodes in a puff
>of clay mineral smoke. This is a macro scale model of
>what is happening to Graneau's water.
>
>You talk of a "deeper energy well". Clearly, you
>haven't understood the concept of negative energy
>I have been plugging in these posts or you would
>have seen that the corollary of an energy well is
>an energy hill.
>
>Let me explain with a simple example which everybody
>can follow.
>
>Consider a tank of water with the following items in
>suspension half way up the column. A thin spherical
>glass christmas decoration strung to a lead weight.
>Cut the string and the lead weight falls to the bottom
>of the tank - your "deeper energy well". But what
>happens to the glass ball. That doesn't fall to the
>bottom of the tank, does it! It rises to the top of
>the hill, the surface of the water in the tank.


Where is the free energy cycle in this?   How is this analogous?  The
analogy falls down in that here it takes energy to form the bond and energy
is released when the bond is broken.


>
>The Graneaus are spot on in their contention that
>energy is stored in inter-molecular bonds.


B

RE: ...water into wine...

[Frederick Sparber]

Hi Keith, you wrote
 
> 
> > Hi Horace, you write:> > However, Graneau and Graneau do> > indeed suggest there exists some mechanism whereby energy can be stored in> >  molecular bonds, and that the source of the energy so stored is solar.>
> Calling Fred Sparber, come in Fred Sparber, here's the> first experiment that seems to show the effect of> solar Sparberinos. 
> 
I'm here, Keith.  Older and Wiser on my 72nd Birthday. Happy Birthday to Horace Heffner, Vince Cockeram, 
and Martin Fleischmann, too.
 
I think the proper term for the molecular (solar stored) energy effect is called Fluorescence, Keith. :-)
 
Although it might require the presence of CO2 as a "catalyst": 
 
CO2 + H2O  <---> H2CO3   (in atmospheric water clusters or liquid water in a pan) exposed
to  the solar spectrum.
Photography has been using this "metastable" energy storage effect for almost two centuries.
 
Frederick
 

Re: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

At 08:47 am 28-03-05 -0900, Horace wrote:

> "Bond energy" in a traditional sense is an energy well, a *lack* of
> potential energy, not a source of potential energy, unless the bond
> constituents are free of the bond or able to bond to other substances and
> thereby create a deeper energy well.  However, Graneau and Graneau do
> indeed suggest there exists some mechanism whereby energy can be stored in
> molecular bonds, and that the source of the energy so stored is solar.


The trouble is that "traditional sense" doesn't understand 
what's going on. I suppose one can't blame chemists for not 
being engineers. One can't expect them to recognise that 
there are two types of energy, positive and negative. 
Having first been introduced to energy in the form kinetic 
energy it's quite uderstandable they don't realise v^2 has a 
positive and a negative root. I mean to say, what possible 
sense could be made of a negative velocity, eh! (sense can 
be made of it but it will take a very perceptive Vortexian 
to twig).

It is because chemists aren't engineers that they never 
discovered the trinity of power laws for water vapour, 
the pressure density law and the vesica pisces law. 

These laws were not discovered by accident. They were not 
discovered by playing around with data and a calculating 
machine. These power laws were discovered from logical 
extension of the original research on the stress-strain 
properties of concrete presented at an international 
symposium at Southampton University - curiously enough, 
the same university that gave rise to the research on 
Cold Fusion.

You of all people, Horace, should be well aware of that 
since I took the trouble to mail the relevant research 
publications to your northern eerie. You were not the 
first person to try and dismiss our striking and 
obviously significant power relationships as mere curve 
fitting exercises and I don't suppose you will be the 
last. All credit to Professor Chaplin, chemist though 
he may be, for not only recognising the importance of 
the power laws but updating them with more modern data 
and presenting them in the clearest way possible on his 
excellent web-site.

If chemists thought like engineers - more specifically 
engineers who are familiar with the design and 
manufacture of prestressed concrete, then they would 
analyse their nano structures in terms strain energy, 
i.e. epsilon squared. Even though chemists might not 
be heaven's gift to mathematics, it would no doubt 
occur to those less mathematically challenged that 
eps^2 has two roots, -eps and +eps, and they would 
realise that "bond energy" can be positive (tensile 
say) or negative (compressive, say). 

It would occur to them that they are dealing with a 
structure which is the analogue of clay, with the 
infra-molecular bonds in a state of compressive strain 
(clay mineral particles) and the inter-molecular bonds 
(pore water) in a state of balancing tensile strain. 

Now I worked for six years in the Soil Mechanics 
Division of the Road Research Laboratory and am 
completely familiar with the pioneering research into 
soil moisture pF by work of Croney, Coleman and Black 
much of which remains unpublished, not untypical of 
government research.

As clay samples are dried out on suction plates and 
brought to a high state of pore water tension and 
balancing state of clay particle compression a state 
is reached (analogous to the failure of concrete in 
a "soft" testing machine) where the strain energy is 
suddenly released and the specimen explodes in a puff 
of clay mineral smoke. This is a macro scale model of 
what is happening to Graneau's water.

You talk of a "deeper energy well". Clearly, you 
haven't understood the concept of negative energy 
I have been plugging in these posts or you would 
have seen that the corollary of an energy well is 
an energy hill.

Let me explain with a simple example which everybody 
can follow.

Consider a tank of water with the following items in 
suspension half way up the column. A thin spherical 
glass christmas decoration strung to a lead weight. 
Cut the string and the lead weight falls to the bottom 
of the tank - your "deeper energy well". But what 
happens to the glass ball. That doesn't fall to the 
bottom of the tank, does it! It rises to the top of 
the hill, the surface of the water in the tank.

The Graneaus are spot on in their contention that 
energy is stored in inter-molecular bonds. 


>> Furthermore, it is clearly over unity 
>> and unequivocally recognised to
>> be so.


>"Unequivocally recognised" seems a bit strong.


I'll grant you that one, Horace. 8-)
I was being deliberately provocative in order 
to provoke a discursive exchange of ideas.


> Graneau and Graneau certainly have been 
> subject to plenty of criticism in the 
> usenet sci.groups regarding their research.  


That was only to be expected if they were saying something 
new and important. And what they have to say is of the 
utmost impo

RE: ...water into wine...

[Keith Nagel]

Hi Horace,

you write:
>However, Graneau and Graneau do
>indeed suggest there exists some mechanism whereby energy can be stored in
>molecular bonds, and that the source of the energy so stored is solar.

Calling Fred Sparber, come in Fred Sparber, here's the
first experiment that seems to show the effect of
solar Sparberinos. 

Perhaps someone with a little free time ( Frank... )
can look up the reference and describe the actual
experiment. I've had _plenty_ of experience with
this technology, and have substantial improved the
art as described by Graneau in his book "Ampere
Newman electrodynamics of metals". For example,
I can build circuits that dump all the impulse
energy into the water arc without causing a shock
wave. Conversely, I can also build circuits that
take a small energy impulse and generate hugh
shock waves.

I'm a little skeptical of the results described,
but I'd love to hear more about them.

K.

Re: ...water into wine...

[Horace Heffner]

At 12:49 AM 3/28/5, Grimer wrote:
>Whilst researching the work of the Graneau's I
>came across the following.
>
>
>
>http://users.erols.com/iri/FutureEnergyTech.html
>
> Cold Fog Discovery
>
>Many other systems exist today, in a research,
>development, or theoretical stage, which also
>convert potential energy into useful work. The
>first example is the "Cold Fog" invention of
>Dr. Peter Graneau from Northeastern University
>that converts chemical bond energy into kinetic
>energy. Intermolecular bond energy in water is
>an available amount of energy estimated at 2.3
>kJ/g.


"Bond energy" in a traditional sense is an energy well, a *lack* of
potential energy, not a source of potential energy, unless the bond
constituants are free of the bond or able to bond to other substances and
thereby create a deeper energy well.  However, Graneau and Graneau do
indeed suggest there exists some mechanism whereby energy can be stored in
molecular bonds, and that the source of the energy so stored is solar.



>When injected with a high voltage capacitor
>discharge of 39.8 Joules, normal rainwater is
>accelerated into a cold fog that loses about
>31.2 Joules of low-grade heat and a comparable
>amount (29.2 Joules) in fog kinetic energy output.
>As reported in the Journal of Plasma Physics,[3]
>the output energy thus exceeds the input energy
>by about 100% creating a 2-to-1 overunity
>condition favorable for reduction to a motorized
>conversion system.
>
> Capacitor Input
>   Energy: 39.8 joules
> !
> V
>Fog Kinetic En.  <-  Cold Fog   ->  Low Grade Heat
>  29.2 Joules   Accelerator   31.2 Joules
>
>
>Now this is not a million miles from the type of thing
>that Jones and I have been suggesting. Furthermore, it
>is clearly over unity and unequivocally recognised to
>be so.
[snip]

"Unequivocally recognised" seems a bit strong.

Graneau and Graneau certainly have been subject to plenty of criticism in
the usenet sci groups regarding their research.  It is not exactly
considered mainstream.  I am not saying here that their experimental
results are not right though.  It should be noted however, that, AFAIK,
even the Graneau's do not suggest the source of energy is "free".  Their
experiments showed that the same experiments repeated with the same water
do not produce the same excess energy. It has to be re-energized by
exposure to the sun.  Unless there has been some development of which I am
unaware, there is no repeatable closed box mechanism suggested to
repeatably create "over unity" energy.

Regards,

Horace Heffner  

Re: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

Whilst researching the work of the Graneau's I 
came across the following.



http://users.erols.com/iri/FutureEnergyTech.html

 Cold Fog Discovery

Many other systems exist today, in a research, 
development, or theoretical stage, which also 
convert potential energy into useful work. The 
first example is the "Cold Fog" invention of 
Dr. Peter Graneau from Northeastern University 
that converts chemical bond energy into kinetic 
energy. Intermolecular bond energy in water is 
an available amount of energy estimated at 2.3 
kJ/g. When injected with a high voltage capacitor 
discharge of 39.8 Joules, normal rainwater is 
accelerated into a cold fog that loses about 
31.2 Joules of low-grade heat and a comparable 
amount (29.2 Joules) in fog kinetic energy output. 
As reported in the Journal of Plasma Physics,[3] 
the output energy thus exceeds the input energy 
by about 100% creating a 2-to-1 overunity 
condition favorable for reduction to a motorized 
conversion system.
 
 Capacitor Input
   Energy: 39.8 joules
 !
 V
Fog Kinetic En.  <-  Cold Fog   ->  Low Grade Heat
  29.2 Joules   Accelerator   31.2 Joules


Now this is not a million miles from the type of thing 
that Jones and I have been suggesting. Furthermore, it 
is clearly over unity and unequivocally recognised to 
be so. In other words energy is being drawn from the 
environment, more specifically the combination of the 
inter-molecular compressive strain energy brought about 
by the Beta-atmosphere Compreture stress on the water 
molecules (between batches variation in terms of Analysis 
of Variance) and the balancing infra-molecular tensile 
strain energy (within batches variation).

Now it is clear that this system is no way optimized. In 
particular, the low grade heat of 31.2 Joules is not some 
unchangeable law of the Medes and Persians, though no 
doubt skeptics would like to think so. The low grade heat 
represents the sub-optimization of the explosive process, 
the failure of the cold fog accelerator to prevent the Beta 
atmosphere compression from grabbing back some proportion 
of the individual water molecules.

The maximum theoretical yield of Kinetic Energy to Capacitor 
Input energy is 60.4/39.8 = 1.52

And what is the significance of this ratio, 1.52. Not rocket 
science is it. Not unreasonable to suppose that within the 
limits of experimental error this is 3/2, i.e. the relation 
between volume and area which is what you might expect.

I remember once discussing our power law work with my colleague, 
Nigel Clayton. He said that he reckoned ultimately it all 
came down to the relation between surface and volume, area and 
volume in other words. I must admit, that was a bridge too far 
for me at the time but I have always remembered his insight 
and kept a lookout for good examples.

Cheers

Frank Grimer

..and for those who like names that fit their occupations
how about Graneau standing for granulated water.   8-)

Re: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

In his post of 22 February 2005 (attached below) Jones 
outlined a farsighted procedure for harnessing the 
Beta-atmosphere/ZPE using "extremely energetic mechanical 
failure, which can be due to brittle failure, or to phase-
shift (allotrope) failure."

Jones points out the large energy available by using Ice 9.

Recently studying Professor Chaplin's phase diagrams on 
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/phase.html
I have realised that there is a relatively simple way to 
harness the huge strain energy inherent in liquid water 
which is partially released when water turns to normal 
hexagonal  ice, Ice Ih.

With reference to the lower of the two phase diagram at the 
above URL, consider the box bounded by 0 and 200 MPa 
(30,000 psi) and -20 and 0 degrees C. 

Interestingly enough, 30,000 psi, the maximum pressure at 
which water remains a liquid,  is also "at the high-end 
injection pressure for a HEUI diesel (30,000 psi)"
http://www.dieselpage.com/art1110ds.htm (see Beene's post 
below) so the necessary equipment is available for injection 
of supercooled water into a cylinder.

If the pressure on the supercooled high pressure water is 
released fast enough one could expect the equivalent of 
brittle failure since the Beta-atmosphere pressure
responsible for the tensile strain energy component of  
ice Ih will not have time to organise the water fragments.

If you think about it, the essential difference between 
isothermal volume change and adiabatic volume change is 
the value of dv/dt. If a volume is expanded very rapidly 
then there is no time for heat to enter or leave the space, 
no time for equilibrium to be reached with the external 
environment. At the other extreme, if a volume is expanded 
very slowly then, irrespective of any insulation, temperature 
equilibrium will be reached with the external environment. 

There is a rather amusing passage I came across whilst 
researching the Carnot cycle that illustrates the importance 
of the rate of heat transfer to cylinders.

=
The conceptual value of the Carnot cycle is that 
it establishes the maximum possible efficiency 
for an engine cycle operating between TH and TC. 
It is not a practical engine cycle because the 
heat transfer into the engine in the isothermal 
process is too slow to be of practical value. 
As Schroeder puts it "So don't bother installing 
a Carnot engine in your car; while it would 
increase your gas mileage, you would be passed 
on the highway by pedestrians." 8-)
=

Now, evidently, there is a wide range of regimes that one 
might adopt for the amount of pressure drop to be used in 
exploding the supercooled high pressure water and the 
amount to be used for driving pistons or turbine.

The optimum conditions can only be established by 
experimentation, or less likely in the short term, by an 
adequate theoretical analysis. The trouble is, existing 
theory is nowhere near being able to achieve the later 
aim because the existing concepts of temperature, energy, 
spectrum of hierarchical aether pressure, just ain't up 
to it (IMNSHO).  ;-) 

This is why, for instance, the three equations of state for 
water vapour remained undiscovered for so long. The concept 
of temperature was so wedded to the Kelvin straightjacket 
that the recognition one was really dealing with inverse 
environmental pressures simply didn't arise. As for the 
idea that there was nothing absolute about "absolute zero 
temperature", anyone suggesting such a thing would 
doubtless be branded anathema.

That various terms that have been used to express the energy 
available in the aether Beta-atmosphere- Casimir - Zero-Point_
Energy, is really a case of Big Enders and Little Enders, to 
use a Lilliputian analogy. I have approached aether pressure 
from the big end specifically tests on concrete - and you can't 
get much bigger eggs than 12 inch cylinders, whereas ZPE 
approaches the egg from the little end. The advantage of the 
big end is you can get the spoon in and see what you are doing. 
It may also involve one dimensional scalar waves rather than 
two dimensional transverse waves.

I imagine the waste product of a water engine would be ice 
crystals though whether this would lead to attenuation of 
global warming or not is difficult to say.  8-)

I believe that if anyone takes up this experimental challenge 
seriously then progress will be much faster than mining the 
aether on a finer scale, such as cold fusion. The only trouble 
is, once someone demonstrates a working model, oil shares
are likely to take such a hammering that a horrendous stock 
market instability might result.

Frank Grimer

===
Re: ZPE-Pumped Cryogenic Mass Increase & Explosive Antimony

From: Jones Beene (view other messages by this author) 
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:18:03 

Re: ...water into wine...

[Grimer]

Developing the ...water into wine... theme, I had recourse to one 
of Beene's old posts and was impressed by how prescient it was.

Bits like, for instance.

  =
  Now, consider the implications of "Dry Ice Blasting." 
  Dry ice blasting is similar to sand blasting, but 
  solid carbon dioxide (CO2) is accelerated in a 
  pressurized air stream to impact a surface. One 
  unique aspect of using dry ice particles is that 
  the particles sublimate (vaporize) upon impact with 
  the surface. The gas expands to eight hundred times 
  the volume of the solid in a few milliseconds in what 
  is effectively a "micro-explosion" at the point of 
  impact. This is not evidence of OU or ZPE coherence.  
  It is mentioned only because 
  it points towards the proven methodology of 
  converting small amounts of heat into larger amounts 
  of usable energy - even at extremely low overall 
  temperatures. And when you substitute *water-ice* 
  micro-spheres for dry ice, you get an expansion 
  ratio that is 25% greater (i.e. 1000:1 rather than 
  800:1, PLUS a much higher critical pressure - over 
  3 times higher)
  =

I think the problem is probably easier than it looks once one
has changed the concepts one is using.

I believe that in years to come people will be amazed that it 
took so long to use the power of ice. I suppose is an analogous
situation to the use of steam as a motive power. All very 
obvious to us know because we have the appropriate concepts to
understand what is going on - but in the early days the whole 
thing must have been very mysterious, even to the inventors.

The power of ice is so obvious and so universal - it splits rocks
heaves roads, breaks plumbing, sinks Titanics, heaps up glacial
moraines, carries erratic blocks [not to be confused with erotic
blacks as our geology lecturer would remind us ;-) ] far across
the countryside. And yet, no one has yet put it to good use, with
the commendable exception of that farmer (I must try and re find 
the URL).

The conceptual changes needed are:-

[1].  The inversion of the concept of temperature and the 
  recognition that we are dealing with a external pressure.

[2].  The recognition that (as the McGraw Hill Encyclopedia 
  of Physics first showed me) two different gasses at 
  temperature T, say, are not at the same temperature, 
  but at equilibrium temperatures.

[3].  The corollary of [2] that the gasses are not at the 
  same Beta-atmosphere pressure but at equilibrium 
  pressures (stresses).

[4].  That we are dealing with strain energies under the 
  alias of "pressure" and that, most importantly, we 
  are dealing with balancing 
  TENSION & COMPRESSION STRAIN ENERGIES.

Because I am an engineer I am very conscious of the fact 
the epsilon^2 has both a positive and a negative root, 
i.e. it can be tensile strain energy or compressive 
strain energy.

Now this doesn't, as far as I know, arise in the case of 
Kinetic Energy say. Nobody ever suggested to me that one 
could have negative velocity.

You can see how this lacuna has come about.

When the idea of moving bodies first arose, the bodies 
were presumed to move in empty space. The idea of a 
negative velocity in such a space doesn't arise. For a 
negative velocity to make sense (or a negative anything 
else for that matter) there has to be an ambient 
velocity for the objects velocity to fall below.

Now with water, the two B-A pressures must be something 
like the ionic H-O bond pressure, which I imagine might 
be the compressive strain, and the hydrogen bond the 
tensile strain as the first approximation. However, as 
Chaplin's site shows us, we have a lot more to play 
with. For example, consider these juicy facts:-

 
 The equilibrium ratio is all para at zero 
 Kelvin shifting to 3:1 ortho:para at less 
 cold temperatures (>50 K);c the equilibrium 
 taking months to establish itself in ice and 
 nearly an hour in ambient water [410]. Many 
 materials preferentially adsorb para-H2O due 
 to its non-rotation ground state [410]. 
 

Also, if we think of the bond as being a strut or tie, 
then quite apart from the axial strain energy we have 
the differential strain energy arising from the fact 
that the strut/tie is bent out of its "free" position 
by Compreture loading.

I think the key will turn out to be the rate at which 
manipulation of the water/ice system takes place - 
very fast one way - very slow the other - something 
like that.

We can think of 4 degree water as analogous to a 
prestressed concrete beam just prior to the point of
collapse. 

Now anybody who has had any connection with dismantling 
pre-stressed concrete structures will know its not a job
you can leave in the hands of Paddy Murphy.  ;-)

There is

Re: ...water into wine...

[thomas malloy]

It' funny when you think about it (peculiar not Ha-Ha)
that water and carbon - the two most important
constituents of the human body - have a lot in common.
Carbon has two main allotropes, Diamond and Graphite.
carbon black makes three, and fullerine makes four.
Water also has two main allotropes, Water and Ice.
steam or water vapor makes three, this is the first time I've heard 
about the macro clusters of water. As I mentioned to Richard M there 
is a book, Water, The Hexagonal Key, which talks about structuring 
water. The man who operates the ewater.com website says that the 
technology can be used to tap the ZPE. I'm very interested in what 
the author of the book says, I wish I had the resources to pursue it.

There have been many reports of  the addition
of water to I.C. engines improving their
performance. I would think it's quite likely 
there's some truth in these reports and that
quite by accident people have stumbled upon a
way of  tapping the energy of the Beta-atmosphere
/ Casimir pressure / ZPE - call it what you will.
I wish you the best of luck with this line of investigation, BTW, I prefer 
ZPE