Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Branko Vukelic]

Zotonic is a framework with CMS included. It's actually quite powerful
(and large). It also packs lots of next-gen stuff like websockets and
comet. Comes with freeimage-based image processing capability etc.
Very cool stuff. Of course, my poor excuse for Erlang programming
didn't live up to the challenge of actually mastering Zotonic.

On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 4:30 AM, Albert Abril  wrote:
> I've been researching about Erlang because Branko comments.
> There's a few frameworks, and there is a compare chart:
> http://www.chicagoboss.org/compare.html
> I get impressed by zotonic. It appears to be a good cms+framework.
> On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 2:43 PM, mdipierro  wrote:
>>
>> Yes. eventlet failed the test. OSX 10.6.3 and python 2.6
>>
>> On Dec 5, 1:34 am, Phyo Arkar  wrote:
>> > This discussion becomes not about comparison of scalability of  web2py
>> > or scability of web2py vs other framework but web2py vs other
>> > langauges??
>> >
>> > >massimo wrote:
>> > >ab -n 1 -c 100http://127.0.0.1:8081/
>> >
>> > >rocket: 0.629 [ms]
>> > >eventlet:
>> >
>> > Massimo , does eventlet failed in that test?
>> >
>> > On 12/5/10, mdipierro  wrote:
>> >
>> > > This is supposed to be even better
>> >
>> > > #http://code.google.com/p/gevent/source/browse/examples/wsgiserver.py
>> > > from gevent import wsgi
>> >
>> > > but cannot install on snow leopard.
>> >
>> > > Massimo
>> >
>> > > On Dec 4, 9:19 pm, mdipierro  wrote:
>> > >> I tried this:
>> >
>> > >> #http://eventlet.net/doc/examples.html#wsgi-server
>> > >> import eventlet
>> > >> from eventlet import wsgi
>> > >> from rocket import Rocket
>> >
>> > >> def hello_world(env, start_response):
>> > >>     if env['PATH_INFO'] != '/':
>> > >>         start_response('404 Not Found', [('Content-Type', 'text/
>> > >> plain')])
>> > >>         return ['Not Found\r\n']
>> > >>     start_response('200 OK', [('Content-Type', 'text/plain')])
>> > >>     return ['Hello, World!\r\n']
>> >
>> > >> if __name__=='__main__':
>> > >>     if True:
>> > >>        r=Rocket(('127.0.0.1',8081),'wsgi', {'wsgi_app':hello_world})
>> > >>        r.start()
>> > >>     else:
>> > >>        wsgi.server(eventlet.listen(('127.0.0.1', 8081)), hello_world)
>> >
>> > >> with
>> >
>> > >> ab -n 1 -c 10http://127.0.0.1:8081/
>> >
>> > >> rocket: 0.618 [ms]
>> > >> eventlet: 0.443 [ms]
>> >
>> > >> ab -n 1 -c 100http://127.0.0.1:8081/
>> >
>> > >> rocket: 0.629 [ms]
>> > >> eventlet:
>> >
>> > >> Benchmarking 127.0.0.1 (be patient)
>> > >> Completed 1000 requests
>> > >> Test aborted after 10 failures
>> > >> apr_socket_connect(): Connection reset by peer (54)
>> > >> Total of 1998 requests completed
>> >
>> > >> On Dec 4, 7:39 pm, Branko Vukelic  wrote:
>> >
>> > >> > On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 1:59 AM, blackthorne
>> > >> > 
>> > >> > wrote:
>> > >> > > I've read it while ago.
>> > >> > > The "problem" with that test is the number of processors. It
>> > >> > > takes a
>> > >> > > high number of CPUs to bring Erlang benefits.
>> >
>> > >> > Another 'problem' is that it's not about performance when it comes
>> > >> > to
>> > >> > Erlang. It's about overall robustness. For example, Yaws HTTP
>> > >> > server
>> > >> > may not be the fastest around, but you just cannot kill it. Even if
>> > >> > it
>> > >> > drops a request, it will keep on running, and handling whatever
>> > >> > requests you throw at it. I guess I had that in mind when I said
>> > >> > scalability.
>> >
>> > >> > Also, Erlang has software threads, afaik, not hardware CPU threads,
>> > >> > and it manages those internally using a supervisor-worker
>> > >> > architecture. That's something built into the language, and you
>> > >> > mostly
>> > >> > don't have to worry about it.
>> >
>> > >> > --
>> > >> > Branko Vukelić
>> >
>> > >> > bg.bra...@gmail.com
>> > >> > stu...@brankovukelic.com
>> >
>> > >> > Check out my blog:http://www.brankovukelic.com/
>> > >> > Check out my portfolio:http://www.flickr.com/photos/foxbunny/
>> > >> > Registered Linux user #438078 (http://counter.li.org/)
>> > >> > I hang out on identi.ca:http://identi.ca/foxbunny
>> >
>> > >> > Gimp Brushmakers Guildhttp://bit.ly/gbg-group
>> >
>> >
>



-- 
Branko Vukelić

bg.bra...@gmail.com
stu...@brankovukelic.com

Check out my blog: http://www.brankovukelic.com/
Check out my portfolio: http://www.flickr.com/photos/foxbunny/
Registered Linux user #438078 (http://counter.li.org/)
I hang out on identi.ca: http://identi.ca/foxbunny

Gimp Brushmakers Guild
http://bit.ly/gbg-group

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Albert Abril]

I've been researching about Erlang because Branko comments.

There's a few frameworks, and there is a compare chart:
http://www.chicagoboss.org/compare.html

I get impressed by zotonic. It appears to be a good cms+framework.

On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 2:43 PM, mdipierro  wrote:

> Yes. eventlet failed the test. OSX 10.6.3 and python 2.6
>
> On Dec 5, 1:34 am, Phyo Arkar  wrote:
> > This discussion becomes not about comparison of scalability of  web2py
> > or scability of web2py vs other framework but web2py vs other
> > langauges??
> >
> > >massimo wrote:
> > >ab -n 1 -c 100http://127.0.0.1:8081/
> >
> > >rocket: 0.629 [ms]
> > >eventlet:
> >
> > Massimo , does eventlet failed in that test?
> >
> > On 12/5/10, mdipierro  wrote:
> >
> > > This is supposed to be even better
> >
> > > #http://code.google.com/p/gevent/source/browse/examples/wsgiserver.py
> > > from gevent import wsgi
> >
> > > but cannot install on snow leopard.
> >
> > > Massimo
> >
> > > On Dec 4, 9:19 pm, mdipierro  wrote:
> > >> I tried this:
> >
> > >> #http://eventlet.net/doc/examples.html#wsgi-server
> > >> import eventlet
> > >> from eventlet import wsgi
> > >> from rocket import Rocket
> >
> > >> def hello_world(env, start_response):
> > >> if env['PATH_INFO'] != '/':
> > >> start_response('404 Not Found', [('Content-Type', 'text/
> > >> plain')])
> > >> return ['Not Found\r\n']
> > >> start_response('200 OK', [('Content-Type', 'text/plain')])
> > >> return ['Hello, World!\r\n']
> >
> > >> if __name__=='__main__':
> > >> if True:
> > >>r=Rocket(('127.0.0.1',8081),'wsgi', {'wsgi_app':hello_world})
> > >>r.start()
> > >> else:
> > >>wsgi.server(eventlet.listen(('127.0.0.1', 8081)), hello_world)
> >
> > >> with
> >
> > >> ab -n 1 -c 10http://127.0.0.1:8081/
> >
> > >> rocket: 0.618 [ms]
> > >> eventlet: 0.443 [ms]
> >
> > >> ab -n 1 -c 100http://127.0.0.1:8081/
> >
> > >> rocket: 0.629 [ms]
> > >> eventlet:
> >
> > >> Benchmarking 127.0.0.1 (be patient)
> > >> Completed 1000 requests
> > >> Test aborted after 10 failures
> > >> apr_socket_connect(): Connection reset by peer (54)
> > >> Total of 1998 requests completed
> >
> > >> On Dec 4, 7:39 pm, Branko Vukelic  wrote:
> >
> > >> > On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 1:59 AM, blackthorne <
> francisco@gmail.com>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> > > I've read it while ago.
> > >> > > The "problem" with that test is the number of processors. It takes
> a
> > >> > > high number of CPUs to bring Erlang benefits.
> >
> > >> > Another 'problem' is that it's not about performance when it comes
> to
> > >> > Erlang. It's about overall robustness. For example, Yaws HTTP server
> > >> > may not be the fastest around, but you just cannot kill it. Even if
> it
> > >> > drops a request, it will keep on running, and handling whatever
> > >> > requests you throw at it. I guess I had that in mind when I said
> > >> > scalability.
> >
> > >> > Also, Erlang has software threads, afaik, not hardware CPU threads,
> > >> > and it manages those internally using a supervisor-worker
> > >> > architecture. That's something built into the language, and you
> mostly
> > >> > don't have to worry about it.
> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Branko Vukelić
> >
> > >> > bg.bra...@gmail.com
> > >> > stu...@brankovukelic.com
> >
> > >> > Check out my blog:http://www.brankovukelic.com/
> > >> > Check out my portfolio:http://www.flickr.com/photos/foxbunny/
> > >> > Registered Linux user #438078 (http://counter.li.org/)
> > >> > I hang out on identi.ca:http://identi.ca/foxbunny
> >
> > >> > Gimp Brushmakers Guildhttp://bit.ly/gbg-group
> >
> >
>

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Branko Vukelic]

On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 8:38 AM, Phyo Arkar  wrote:
> If this become a langauge war:
>
> Erlang have many scability advantages , yes , but Langauge Looks
> horrible!! almost as readable as C (in my opinion)

Erlang is not just a language. When I say Erlang, I mean Erlang/OTP,
and OTP is a huge general-purpose framework for networked
applications. So effectively you are still comparing frameworks.
Language itself is actually beautiful. I thought it was ugly at first,
but I obviously no longer think so. Once you get used to the syntax,
you get absorbed in how powerful the language is.

-- 
Branko Vukelić

bg.bra...@gmail.com
stu...@brankovukelic.com

Check out my blog: http://www.brankovukelic.com/
Check out my portfolio: http://www.flickr.com/photos/foxbunny/
Registered Linux user #438078 (http://counter.li.org/)
I hang out on identi.ca: http://identi.ca/foxbunny

Gimp Brushmakers Guild
http://bit.ly/gbg-group

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Phyo Arkar]

If this become a langauge war:

Erlang have many scability advantages , yes , but Langauge Looks
horrible!! almost as readable as C (in my opinion)

I will only choose python .It will  not be  Super Scalable as erlang
but still scalable as proven by google.

sorry for my bad english.

On 12/5/10, Phyo Arkar  wrote:
> This discussion becomes not about comparison of scalability of  web2py
> or scability of web2py vs other framework but web2py vs other
> langauges??
>
>>massimo wrote:
>>ab -n 1 -c 100 http://127.0.0.1:8081/
>>
>>rocket: 0.629 [ms]
>>eventlet:
>
>
> Massimo , does eventlet failed in that test?
>
> On 12/5/10, mdipierro  wrote:
>> This is supposed to be even better
>>
>> # http://code.google.com/p/gevent/source/browse/examples/wsgiserver.py
>> from gevent import wsgi
>>
>>
>> but cannot install on snow leopard.
>>
>> Massimo
>>
>> On Dec 4, 9:19 pm, mdipierro  wrote:
>>> I tried this:
>>>
>>> #http://eventlet.net/doc/examples.html#wsgi-server
>>> import eventlet
>>> from eventlet import wsgi
>>> from rocket import Rocket
>>>
>>> def hello_world(env, start_response):
>>>     if env['PATH_INFO'] != '/':
>>>         start_response('404 Not Found', [('Content-Type', 'text/
>>> plain')])
>>>         return ['Not Found\r\n']
>>>     start_response('200 OK', [('Content-Type', 'text/plain')])
>>>     return ['Hello, World!\r\n']
>>>
>>> if __name__=='__main__':
>>>     if True:
>>>        r=Rocket(('127.0.0.1',8081),'wsgi', {'wsgi_app':hello_world})
>>>        r.start()
>>>     else:
>>>        wsgi.server(eventlet.listen(('127.0.0.1', 8081)), hello_world)
>>>
>>> with
>>>
>>> ab -n 1 -c 10http://127.0.0.1:8081/
>>>
>>> rocket: 0.618 [ms]
>>> eventlet: 0.443 [ms]
>>>
>>> ab -n 1 -c 100http://127.0.0.1:8081/
>>>
>>> rocket: 0.629 [ms]
>>> eventlet:
>>>
>>> Benchmarking 127.0.0.1 (be patient)
>>> Completed 1000 requests
>>> Test aborted after 10 failures
>>> apr_socket_connect(): Connection reset by peer (54)
>>> Total of 1998 requests completed
>>>
>>> On Dec 4, 7:39 pm, Branko Vukelic  wrote:
>>>
>>> > On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 1:59 AM, blackthorne 
>>> > wrote:
>>> > > I've read it while ago.
>>> > > The "problem" with that test is the number of processors. It takes a
>>> > > high number of CPUs to bring Erlang benefits.
>>>
>>> > Another 'problem' is that it's not about performance when it comes to
>>> > Erlang. It's about overall robustness. For example, Yaws HTTP server
>>> > may not be the fastest around, but you just cannot kill it. Even if it
>>> > drops a request, it will keep on running, and handling whatever
>>> > requests you throw at it. I guess I had that in mind when I said
>>> > scalability.
>>>
>>> > Also, Erlang has software threads, afaik, not hardware CPU threads,
>>> > and it manages those internally using a supervisor-worker
>>> > architecture. That's something built into the language, and you mostly
>>> > don't have to worry about it.
>>>
>>> > --
>>> > Branko Vukelić
>>>
>>> > bg.bra...@gmail.com
>>> > stu...@brankovukelic.com
>>>
>>> > Check out my blog:http://www.brankovukelic.com/
>>> > Check out my portfolio:http://www.flickr.com/photos/foxbunny/
>>> > Registered Linux user #438078 (http://counter.li.org/)
>>> > I hang out on identi.ca:http://identi.ca/foxbunny
>>>
>>> > Gimp Brushmakers Guildhttp://bit.ly/gbg-group
>>>
>>>
>

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Phyo Arkar]

This discussion becomes not about comparison of scalability of  web2py
or scability of web2py vs other framework but web2py vs other
langauges??

>massimo wrote:
>ab -n 1 -c 100 http://127.0.0.1:8081/
>
>rocket: 0.629 [ms]
>eventlet:


Massimo , does eventlet failed in that test?

On 12/5/10, mdipierro  wrote:
> This is supposed to be even better
>
> # http://code.google.com/p/gevent/source/browse/examples/wsgiserver.py
> from gevent import wsgi
>
>
> but cannot install on snow leopard.
>
> Massimo
>
> On Dec 4, 9:19 pm, mdipierro  wrote:
>> I tried this:
>>
>> #http://eventlet.net/doc/examples.html#wsgi-server
>> import eventlet
>> from eventlet import wsgi
>> from rocket import Rocket
>>
>> def hello_world(env, start_response):
>>     if env['PATH_INFO'] != '/':
>>         start_response('404 Not Found', [('Content-Type', 'text/
>> plain')])
>>         return ['Not Found\r\n']
>>     start_response('200 OK', [('Content-Type', 'text/plain')])
>>     return ['Hello, World!\r\n']
>>
>> if __name__=='__main__':
>>     if True:
>>        r=Rocket(('127.0.0.1',8081),'wsgi', {'wsgi_app':hello_world})
>>        r.start()
>>     else:
>>        wsgi.server(eventlet.listen(('127.0.0.1', 8081)), hello_world)
>>
>> with
>>
>> ab -n 1 -c 10http://127.0.0.1:8081/
>>
>> rocket: 0.618 [ms]
>> eventlet: 0.443 [ms]
>>
>> ab -n 1 -c 100http://127.0.0.1:8081/
>>
>> rocket: 0.629 [ms]
>> eventlet:
>>
>> Benchmarking 127.0.0.1 (be patient)
>> Completed 1000 requests
>> Test aborted after 10 failures
>> apr_socket_connect(): Connection reset by peer (54)
>> Total of 1998 requests completed
>>
>> On Dec 4, 7:39 pm, Branko Vukelic  wrote:
>>
>> > On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 1:59 AM, blackthorne 
>> > wrote:
>> > > I've read it while ago.
>> > > The "problem" with that test is the number of processors. It takes a
>> > > high number of CPUs to bring Erlang benefits.
>>
>> > Another 'problem' is that it's not about performance when it comes to
>> > Erlang. It's about overall robustness. For example, Yaws HTTP server
>> > may not be the fastest around, but you just cannot kill it. Even if it
>> > drops a request, it will keep on running, and handling whatever
>> > requests you throw at it. I guess I had that in mind when I said
>> > scalability.
>>
>> > Also, Erlang has software threads, afaik, not hardware CPU threads,
>> > and it manages those internally using a supervisor-worker
>> > architecture. That's something built into the language, and you mostly
>> > don't have to worry about it.
>>
>> > --
>> > Branko Vukelić
>>
>> > bg.bra...@gmail.com
>> > stu...@brankovukelic.com
>>
>> > Check out my blog:http://www.brankovukelic.com/
>> > Check out my portfolio:http://www.flickr.com/photos/foxbunny/
>> > Registered Linux user #438078 (http://counter.li.org/)
>> > I hang out on identi.ca:http://identi.ca/foxbunny
>>
>> > Gimp Brushmakers Guildhttp://bit.ly/gbg-group
>>
>>

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Branko Vukelic]

On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 1:59 AM, blackthorne  wrote:
> I've read it while ago.
> The "problem" with that test is the number of processors. It takes a
> high number of CPUs to bring Erlang benefits.

Another 'problem' is that it's not about performance when it comes to
Erlang. It's about overall robustness. For example, Yaws HTTP server
may not be the fastest around, but you just cannot kill it. Even if it
drops a request, it will keep on running, and handling whatever
requests you throw at it. I guess I had that in mind when I said
scalability.

Also, Erlang has software threads, afaik, not hardware CPU threads,
and it manages those internally using a supervisor-worker
architecture. That's something built into the language, and you mostly
don't have to worry about it.

-- 
Branko Vukelić

bg.bra...@gmail.com
stu...@brankovukelic.com

Check out my blog: http://www.brankovukelic.com/
Check out my portfolio: http://www.flickr.com/photos/foxbunny/
Registered Linux user #438078 (http://counter.li.org/)
I hang out on identi.ca: http://identi.ca/foxbunny

Gimp Brushmakers Guild
http://bit.ly/gbg-group

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Branko Vukelic]

I found this:

http://code.google.com/p/stacklessexamples/wiki/StacklessWSGI

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 8:40 PM, mdipierro  wrote:
> What do you people make of this:
>
> http://muharem.wordpress.com/2007/07/31/erlang-vs-stackless-python-a-first-benchmark/
>
> (web2py runs on stackless except that out server does not take
> advantage of its features).
>
> Massimo
>
>
> On Dec 3, 1:32 pm, Branko Vukelic  wrote:
>> I don't know why but Java hasn't been mentioned even once. Java has
>> seen lots of deployment, and I imagine some huge stuff might have been
>> built on it, and it's open-source-ish. :)
>>
>> PHP? It's well capable of handling it's business, you know. Facebook's
>> front-end runs on PHP. And it's open-source. Ugly as hell, too.
>>
>> Ruby on Rails was another option, right? Has all the benefits of an
>> open-source project with all the benefits of the 'proven to scale'
>> argument?
>>
>> And finally, Erlang. Proven to massively scale in right hands, proven
>> ability to deal with hugely concurrent apps... If it's good enough for
>> Ericsson, right? I mean telecomm software: real-time, distributed, and
>> how many people use phones (including cells) around the world?
>> Facebook chat runs on it, Github has some components ported to Erlang,
>> and generally, wherever real-timeness is a priority, it's unbeatable.
>>
>> So, it's not .NET vs web2py. It's proven-to-scale (they gave .NET and
>> Rails as examples, iirc), versus web2py. You have open-source
>> solutions other than Python/web2py. Frankly, I'd always bet on Erlang.
>> But I never learn enough of it to get started. :)
>>
>> --
>> Branko Vukelić
>>
>> bg.bra...@gmail.com
>> stu...@brankovukelic.com
>>
>> Check out my blog:http://www.brankovukelic.com/
>> Check out my portfolio:http://www.flickr.com/photos/foxbunny/
>> Registered Linux user #438078 (http://counter.li.org/)
>> I hang out on identi.ca:http://identi.ca/foxbunny
>>
>> Gimp Brushmakers Guildhttp://bit.ly/gbg-group



-- 
Branko Vukelić

bg.bra...@gmail.com
stu...@brankovukelic.com

Check out my blog: http://www.brankovukelic.com/
Check out my portfolio: http://www.flickr.com/photos/foxbunny/
Registered Linux user #438078 (http://counter.li.org/)
I hang out on identi.ca: http://identi.ca/foxbunny

Gimp Brushmakers Guild
http://bit.ly/gbg-group

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Branko Vukelic]

I don't know why but Java hasn't been mentioned even once. Java has
seen lots of deployment, and I imagine some huge stuff might have been
built on it, and it's open-source-ish. :)

PHP? It's well capable of handling it's business, you know. Facebook's
front-end runs on PHP. And it's open-source. Ugly as hell, too.

Ruby on Rails was another option, right? Has all the benefits of an
open-source project with all the benefits of the 'proven to scale'
argument?

And finally, Erlang. Proven to massively scale in right hands, proven
ability to deal with hugely concurrent apps... If it's good enough for
Ericsson, right? I mean telecomm software: real-time, distributed, and
how many people use phones (including cells) around the world?
Facebook chat runs on it, Github has some components ported to Erlang,
and generally, wherever real-timeness is a priority, it's unbeatable.

So, it's not .NET vs web2py. It's proven-to-scale (they gave .NET and
Rails as examples, iirc), versus web2py. You have open-source
solutions other than Python/web2py. Frankly, I'd always bet on Erlang.
But I never learn enough of it to get started. :)

-- 
Branko Vukelić

bg.bra...@gmail.com
stu...@brankovukelic.com

Check out my blog: http://www.brankovukelic.com/
Check out my portfolio: http://www.flickr.com/photos/foxbunny/
Registered Linux user #438078 (http://counter.li.org/)
I hang out on identi.ca: http://identi.ca/foxbunny

Gimp Brushmakers Guild
http://bit.ly/gbg-group

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Michele Comitini]

The very great thing about web2py is that even if it is full of
features, Massimo
was able and willing to keep it small.  Small in the  sense that it
has little code,
because it leverages on Python language features and patterns.  What
does that mean?  It means that anyone can reach and understand any
part of web2py code
and fix/optimize it, so in the long run web2py will just become better
and better, closed to best.

Aside from that, web2py development speed is very addictive, for me it
is getting harder and harder to switch back to slowness :)

mic

2010/12/3 pbreit :
> I don't think anyone is comparing web2py to .net (thank goodness). A
> better comparison is Ruby on Rails and Massimo is a bit like DHH. I
> get the impression that he is pretty passionate about web2py and his
> position at the university would enable him to continue working on it
> for awhile. And if that doesn't happen, hey, it's open source and
> anyone can pick it up.
>
> What we're missing is something like the 37signals product suite to
> push the framework in real world use. Is anyone here working on a
> public web site that might scale up? I'm about to give it a shot. The
> risk seems manageable. I've never really heard of anyone actually
> being unable to scale a popular service. The problem is usually the
> opposite: premature optimization.

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Branko Vukelic]

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 8:16 AM, pbreit  wrote:
> ...and Massimo is a bit like DHH...

Fortunately you are almost too wrong. ;)

-- 
Branko Vukelić

bg.bra...@gmail.com
stu...@brankovukelic.com

Check out my blog: http://www.brankovukelic.com/
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Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Michele Comitini]

@John

I think the best argument to end this discussion, is that someone,
possibly you, write a simple
and sane example that brings down and locks web2py, so we will come
over it and there will be no excuse to fix.

mic


On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 3:18 PM, mdipierro  wrote:
> I thought experts4solutions.com would help with that.

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Branko Vukelic]

On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 3:18 PM, mdipierro  wrote:
> I thought experts4solutions.com would help with that.

Well, it hasn't proposed any projects yet, no? What I had in mind is
something along the lines of:

"Ok, so Company XXX has a product that does A, B, and C. The goal of
this project is to do A, B and C, and maybe do C a bit differently, by
July next year."

Then you could look for a sponsor that would possibly use the product
later on, and you allow them exclusive access to WIP code, you give
them access to bug tracker, pre-release code, etc, maybe a special
exclusive non-GPL license for the code (the finished product is
released under GPL, but company, say, keeps the right to close-source
its modifications, etc). That way, you get access to money, and people
who have an interest in keeping the project alive on longer term.

It's a bit different than the classic investment.


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Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Tom Atkins]

Very sorry - I missed the link you already posted - will make sure to read
full thread in the future!

On 2 December 2010 12:23, Kuba Kucharski  wrote:

> > requests per second to Django with Apache and mod_wsgi:
> >
> http://nosql.mypopescu.com/post/1409154668/disqus-scaling-the-worlds-largest-django-application
>
> exactly and already mentioned in this thread
>
> >Real WORLD scalable implementations are VERY CUSTOM thing.
>
> >like for example:
> >http://python.mirocommunity.org/video/1886/djangocon-2010-scaling-the-wor
>

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Kuba Kucharski]

> requests per second to Django with Apache and mod_wsgi:
> http://nosql.mypopescu.com/post/1409154668/disqus-scaling-the-worlds-largest-django-application

exactly and already mentioned in this thread

>Real WORLD scalable implementations are VERY CUSTOM thing.

>like for example:
>http://python.mirocommunity.org/video/1886/djangocon-2010-scaling-the-wor

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Tom Atkins]

I should have said "John Heenan's criticisms of web2py *relating to
scalability*..."

On 2 December 2010 11:46, Tom Atkins  wrote:

> I'm assuming John Heenan's criticisms of web2py would apply equally to
> Django?
>
> Please correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> Django can scale pretty well - here's a presentation showing how Disqus
> have scaled their Django app to 250 million visitors a month and a peak of
> 17,000 requests per second to Django with Apache and mod_wsgi:
>
>
> http://nosql.mypopescu.com/post/1409154668/disqus-scaling-the-worlds-largest-django-application
>
> Presumably web2py could do the same?
>

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Tom Atkins]

I'm assuming John Heenan's criticisms of web2py would apply equally to
Django?

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Django can scale pretty well - here's a presentation showing how Disqus have
scaled their Django app to 250 million visitors a month and a peak of 17,000
requests per second to Django with Apache and mod_wsgi:

http://nosql.mypopescu.com/post/1409154668/disqus-scaling-the-worlds-largest-django-application

Presumably web2py could do the same?

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Branko Vukelic]

How about we do something similar to what Blender foundation is doing
for Blender? Build an interesting web app every year as a community
project, and deploy it somewhere, get some publicity, have people try
it... While doing that, we could focus our efforts on improving web2py
etc.

The project will focus on a subset of features. Like "Let's do an app
that focuses on session handling." or "Let's do an app that focuses on
real-time communication", or "Let's do an app that deals with nodes.",
or "Let's do an app that runs on a mobile platform."

We could ask for sponsorship, and develop an app that a sponsor will
have vested interest in, etc.

On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 7:17 AM, pbreit  wrote:
> This is a good discussion as it is apparent that web2py is an
> incredible framework for rapidly building well-designed applications
> but it's not totally clear what happens in a high volume situation.
> But let's not forget that pretty much every framework experiences this
> exactly. While Massimo is with us and we hope he will be for a long
> time, let's really push web2py. That's the best way to identify and
> resolve issues.
>
> Many projects like this begin with one visionary and it is
> understandable to be concerned about the future of the project. But
> with valuable projects such as web2py, they figure out a way to
> endure. That's the beauty of open source.
>
> One thing that would help (me, at least) is spec'ing out a solid
> server configuration. It's so easy and inexpensive now to pick an
> environment on Amazon or Rackspace ($0-8/month)(for US people, at
> least). There are already some great docs and scripts to get web2py
> running on Ubuntu and Apache. It would be great to see some
> information on Nginx and Cherokee (on Ubuntu 10.04).



-- 
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Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Marcello Parra]

Massimo,

Any doc/reference about this?

Thanks

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 11:20 PM, mdipierro  wrote:

> web2py introduces a penalty when you have lots of tables and there are
> some optimizations that need to be done in that case.
>
>

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Michele Comitini]

better yet: http://pypi.python.org/pypi/Spawning/

2010/12/1 Michele Comitini :
> did anyone try to run web2py on this?
>
> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pastegevent/0.1
>
>
> 2010/12/1 Jorge Restrepo :
>> Yes.
>> I second you on that, Kuba.
>>
>>
>> I also want to procede with a large scale app, but I am waiting...
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Kuba Kucharski 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Web2py is waiting for the first brave ONE to (be able to) GO and try
>>> to SCALE. I believe this person will get a lot of attention and
>>> resources from community and Massimo himself.
>>>
>>> Real WORLD scalable implementations are VERY CUSTOM thing.
>>>
>>> like for example:
>>> http://python.mirocommunity.org/video/1886/djangocon-2010-scaling-the-wor
>>>
>>> btw, they use apache.
>>>
>>> My point is: let's focus on our killer products that will create good
>>> enough tracking and attention to.. scale.
>>
>>
>

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Michele Comitini]

did anyone try to run web2py on this?

http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pastegevent/0.1


2010/12/1 Jorge Restrepo :
> Yes.
> I second you on that, Kuba.
>
>
> I also want to procede with a large scale app, but I am waiting...
>
> On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Kuba Kucharski 
> wrote:
>>
>> Web2py is waiting for the first brave ONE to (be able to) GO and try
>> to SCALE. I believe this person will get a lot of attention and
>> resources from community and Massimo himself.
>>
>> Real WORLD scalable implementations are VERY CUSTOM thing.
>>
>> like for example:
>> http://python.mirocommunity.org/video/1886/djangocon-2010-scaling-the-wor
>>
>> btw, they use apache.
>>
>> My point is: let's focus on our killer products that will create good
>> enough tracking and attention to.. scale.
>
>

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Marcello Parra]

What is the largest application running web2py today?




On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 5:28 PM, Kuba Kucharski wrote:

> Web2py is waiting for the first brave ONE to (be able to) GO and try
> to SCALE. I believe this person will get a lot of attention and
> resources from community and Massimo himself.
>
> Real WORLD scalable implementations are VERY CUSTOM thing.
>
> like for example:
> http://python.mirocommunity.org/video/1886/djangocon-2010-scaling-the-wor
>
> btw, they use apache.
>
> My point is: let's focus on our killer products that will create good
> enough tracking and attention to.. scale.
>

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Jorge Restrepo]

Yes.
I second you on that, Kuba.


I also want to procede with a large scale app, but I am waiting...

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Kuba Kucharski wrote:

> Web2py is waiting for the first brave ONE to (be able to) GO and try
> to SCALE. I believe this person will get a lot of attention and
> resources from community and Massimo himself.
>
> Real WORLD scalable implementations are VERY CUSTOM thing.
>
> like for example:
> http://python.mirocommunity.org/video/1886/djangocon-2010-scaling-the-wor
>
> btw, they use apache.
>
> My point is: let's focus on our killer products that will create good
> enough tracking and attention to.. scale.
>

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Kuba Kucharski]

Web2py is waiting for the first brave ONE to (be able to) GO and try
to SCALE. I believe this person will get a lot of attention and
resources from community and Massimo himself.

Real WORLD scalable implementations are VERY CUSTOM thing.

like for example:
http://python.mirocommunity.org/video/1886/djangocon-2010-scaling-the-wor

btw, they use apache.

My point is: let's focus on our killer products that will create good
enough tracking and attention to.. scale.

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Branko Vukelic]

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 8:10 PM, Thadeus Burgess  wrote:
> Would that be the decision of the webserver? gevent uses a event-per-request
> and it is written completely in python.

Anyway, they didn't say ASP.NET. They just said .NET.

http://ironpython.net/

Run web2py on that, and wahoo!

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Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Thadeus Burgess]

Would that be the decision of the webserver? gevent uses a event-per-request
and it is written completely in python.

--
Thadeus




On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 11:45 AM, John Heenan  wrote:

> The elephant in the room has not gone away Massimo.
>
> Web2py is great for small projects.
>
> DotNet is great for small and large projects.
>
> The elephant in the room is not only the untested scalibility of
> web2py but also the amount of resources that neeeds to be thrown at
> web2py compared to DotNet and other frameworks as scale increases.
>
> One of the glaring defciences in web frameworks that use Python is the
> glaring engineering weakness of using thread per request web serving
> instead of using event per request web serving. I think I have pointed
> this out a number of times on this fourm, but it just does not sink
> in. I even pointed out how Linux loast a PR war over this issue.
>
> There is no need for Python based web frameworks to use thread per
> request web serving.
>
> John Heenan
>
> On Nov 30, 4:05 am, mdipierro  wrote:
> > You achieve scalability by replicating the web server behind a load
> > balancer. This is documented in the book, chapter 11, using HAProxy.
> > All frameworks work the same way in this respect. web2py has no
> > intrinsic limitations. The bottle neck is the database connection. All
> > frameworks have the same problem. You can replicate the database too
> > and web2py supports multiple database clients with Round-Robin.
> >
> > On a small VPS, web2py in average, should execute one page in 20ms.
> > Depending on how many requests/second you need you can determine how
> > many servers you need.
> >
> > web2py apps run on Google App Engine and that means arbitrary
> > scalability as long as you can live with the constraints imposed by
> > the Google datastore (these limitations will go away as soon as Google
> > releases MySQL in the cloud, which they announced some time ago).
> >
> > Please ask the consultant: which .NET feature makes it scale any
> > better than web2py or Rails? If he explains we can address it more
> > specifically.
> >
> > Massimo
> >
> > On Nov 29, 11:56 am, Lorin Rivers  wrote:
> >
> > > The project I'm working on has hired a consultant who is now
> recommending .Net in place of web2py or even rails.
> >
> > > What's the 'largest' scale web2py is known to perform well on?
> >
> > > --
> > > Lorin Rivers
> > > Mosasaur: Killer Technical Marketing 
> > > 
> > > 512/203.3198 (m)
> >
> >
>

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Branko Vukelic]

Erlang is for humongous, real-time, distributed, and highly-available apps.

Here's an example (maybe quoted one time too often):

http://www.sics.se/~joe/apachevsyaws.html

On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 6:45 PM, John Heenan  wrote:
> The elephant in the room has not gone away Massimo.
>
> Web2py is great for small projects.
>
> DotNet is great for small and large projects.
>
> The elephant in the room is not only the untested scalibility of
> web2py but also the amount of resources that neeeds to be thrown at
> web2py compared to DotNet and other frameworks as scale increases.
>
> One of the glaring defciences in web frameworks that use Python is the
> glaring engineering weakness of using thread per request web serving
> instead of using event per request web serving. I think I have pointed
> this out a number of times on this fourm, but it just does not sink
> in. I even pointed out how Linux loast a PR war over this issue.
>
> There is no need for Python based web frameworks to use thread per
> request web serving.
>
> John Heenan
>
> On Nov 30, 4:05 am, mdipierro  wrote:
>> You achieve scalability by replicating the web server behind a load
>> balancer. This is documented in the book, chapter 11, using HAProxy.
>> All frameworks work the same way in this respect. web2py has no
>> intrinsic limitations. The bottle neck is the database connection. All
>> frameworks have the same problem. You can replicate the database too
>> and web2py supports multiple database clients with Round-Robin.
>>
>> On a small VPS, web2py in average, should execute one page in 20ms.
>> Depending on how many requests/second you need you can determine how
>> many servers you need.
>>
>> web2py apps run on Google App Engine and that means arbitrary
>> scalability as long as you can live with the constraints imposed by
>> the Google datastore (these limitations will go away as soon as Google
>> releases MySQL in the cloud, which they announced some time ago).
>>
>> Please ask the consultant: which .NET feature makes it scale any
>> better than web2py or Rails? If he explains we can address it more
>> specifically.
>>
>> Massimo
>>
>> On Nov 29, 11:56 am, Lorin Rivers  wrote:
>>
>> > The project I'm working on has hired a consultant who is now recommending 
>> > .Net in place of web2py or even rails.
>>
>> > What's the 'largest' scale web2py is known to perform well on?
>>
>> > --
>> > Lorin Rivers
>> > Mosasaur: Killer Technical Marketing 
>> > 
>> > 512/203.3198 (m)
>>
>>



-- 
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Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Thadeus Burgess]

All of the problems I had with web2py were because of the sessions. Even
storing the sessions in db caused web2py to crash.

Never really found a solution, there is something to the fact of having to
pickle/unpickle the session that can't handle major loads.

--
Thadeus




On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 10:57 AM, mdipierro  wrote:

> We should have a mechanism for storing sessions clientside but this is
> a speed issue not a scalability issues. Storing sessions in encrypted
> cookies makes a each request 1-2ms faster by trading bandhwidth
> (required to communicate the session in cookie) with file IO (required
> to locate and access the session in a file).
>
> Scalability-wise sessions in files do not present a problem as long as
> one uses a load balancer with support with sticky sessions.
>
> On common problem arises when there are too many session files in the
> same folder (the os becomes slow accessing the folder). This problem
> has been solved in trunk last week by creating a sub-folder tree
> structure for the session folder.
>
> Session in files some advantages of sessions in cookies: they can
> contain more data. They can be controller server-side (checked,
> deleted, modified). They can be locked to force per-user serialization
> of form processing(default in web2py).
>
> Bottom line: current sessions are not a scalability issue but it would
> be nice to have the option of sessions in signed cookies. It is not
> difficult to do and we have it by the end of the year.
>
> This will be a major speed up for system that do not have a filesystem
> and currently require storing sessions on datastore, like on GAE.
>
> Massimo
>
> On Dec 1, 10:31 am, VP  wrote:
> > This is an example -- I think -- where web2py still needs to be proven
> > in terms of scalability.
> >
> > Yes, sessions can be stored in database, turned off in specific
> > functions, and regularly deleted.   But I still think that there
> > should be a better systematic way of handling sessions in heavy
> > applications.  I think the current set up is not effective when you
> > have large volume of users, which suddenly builds up many sessions.
> >
> > Small things like this don't matter much until things get large
> > scaled.
> >
> > ===
> >
> > To take web2py to the next level, I think Massimo might need to lay
> > out milestones or visions to be achieved in future releases of
> > web2py.
> >
> > On Nov 30, 6:07 pm, Stef Mientki  wrote:
> >
> > > On 30-11-2010 21:08, VP wrote:> I think .NET and web2py are not
> competitors.  They are different ball
> > > > games.   When things scale large, everything is important.  A small
> > > > design issue might be magnified.   I don't think web2py is proven
> yet,
> > > > in terms of scalability.  What web2py needs is at least one real
> > > > example to show that it is scalable and what are the limits at the
> > > > extreme.
> >
> > > I'm not sure were session files are used for,
> > > but isn't file access much slower than database access ?
> >
> > > Can session files be turned of ?
> >
> > > cheers,
> > > Stef
> >
> >
>

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Kuba Kucharski]

> Can session files be turned of ?

you can turn off sessions by

session.forget()

and also store sessions in the database
that is how it works on GAE. In every default db.py you have:

if request.env.web2py_runtime_gae:
  db = DAL('gae')
  session.connect(request, response, db=db)

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Stef Mientki]

On 30-11-2010 21:08, VP wrote:
> I think .NET and web2py are not competitors.  They are different ball
> games.   When things scale large, everything is important.  A small
> design issue might be magnified.   I don't think web2py is proven yet,
> in terms of scalability.  What web2py needs is at least one real
> example to show that it is scalable and what are the limits at the
> extreme.
I'm not sure were session files are used for,
but isn't file access much slower than database access ?

Can session files be turned of ?

cheers,
Stef

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Branko Vukelic]

On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 1:09 AM, Lorin Rivers  wrote:
> The number of people that can write code better than I can is close to the 
> number of people who CAN write code…

Let me share an anecdote from where I work. One of the IT staff here
fiddles with VB from time to time. He does consider himself an
intermediate programmer. So he comes to me from time to time to ask
for advice on how to do this or that. And each time, my first response
is: "Try to google out a library that does that." It almost always
turns out that there is (a) no such library shared on the net, or (b)
you have to pay for it. That's the kind of eco system he's in. We all
know how beautifully different that is with open-source software.

So, it's not just writing code. It's about "I'm not the brightest kid
on the block, and there might be others, who are smarter, and have
maybe shared their smarts with the rest of us." And you download that
lib, and you learn the API, read the source, and learn a thing or two.
So you don't always have to write better code than others.

Having said all of above... I've tried Ruby, Erlang, VB, Python, a
little bit of C. You always learn a few things by just trying to get
something working in any environment, and you can use that knowledge
to advance your understanding of the tool you chose. In other words, a
little experimenting with .NET won't hurt you a bit. If I'm not
mistaken, there's "express" version of whatever tool Microsoft offers,
and you can use that to educate yourself. See how it works and define
your arguments against it with something to back it up. And MSDN is a
fine piece of knowledge base, too, just to be fair. I've learned a lot
from it alone back when I didn't know how to google for stuff.

-- 
Branko Vukelić

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Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Michele Comitini]

We, people used to free software, keep forgetting some goodies of
things like web2py, since we give those for granted.

- full version, no demo or limited in time bull
- see how it is coded and know the *real* quality
- code written to solve problems and not sell licences
- support from the ones that designed the software

mic


2010/11/30 mdipierro :
> I second!
>
> On Nov 29, 10:31 pm, Jason Brower  wrote:
>> You may be suprised how good you are.  Especially in such short time you
>> can improve.  I went from barely scraping up web-pages to some pretty
>> impressive intra-net sites in just a few months.
>> .Net will eventually teach you how not to code.  It makes you truly
>> appriciate web2py.
>> It's tough to have persuade people that have a big bully behind them.  I
>> know the feeling, but if you can develop the prototype and you do it
>> right, you win.  Besides, I wonder if this consultant is coding at all.
>> His skills to code is directly relative to the statements he makes, at
>> least to me.
>> BR,
>> Jason
>>
>> On Mon, 2010-11-29 at 18:09 -0600, Lorin Rivers wrote:
>> > The number of people that can write code better than I can is close to the 
>> > number of people who CAN write code…
>>
>> > On Nov 29, 2010, at 17:08 , Branko Vukelic wrote:
>>
>> > > We know .NET will scale to thousands of nodes IF you write the .NET
>> > > code right. If you write crappy code (and that's inevitable if you
>> > > don't like .NET or you don't know .NET), it will not only NOT run on
>> > > thousands of nodes, but will probably crash all of them.
>>
>> > > Having said that... if they can help you write better code on .NET
>> > > than you currently write in web2py, the above argument turns on you.
>>
>> > > On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 7:49 PM, Lorin Rivers  
>> > > wrote:
>> > >> Unfortunately, the killing argument is "we know .NET will scale to 
>> > >> thousands of nodes, blah, blah, blah".
>>
>> > >> This from (a guy who's smart and I respect, honestly) who uses his 
>> > >> brand-new top-of-the-line 17" MBP to run Windows VMs in Parallels.
>>
>> > >> On Nov 29, 2010, at 12:20 , Julio Schwarzbeck wrote:
>>
>> > >>> And this without considering "vendor lock-in". web2py can run on a
>> > >>> variety of platforms such as windows, macs. Linux and others, same
>> > >>> goes for the selection of the back-end database. Much more flexibility
>> > >>> under web2py in my opinion and prototyping is much faster in python.
>>
>> > >>> On Nov 29, 10:05 am, mdipierro  wrote:
>> >  You achieve scalability by replicating the web server behind a load
>> >  balancer. This is documented in the book, chapter 11, using HAProxy.
>> >  All frameworks work the same way in this respect. web2py has no
>> >  intrinsic limitations. The bottle neck is the database connection. All
>> >  frameworks have the same problem. You can replicate the database too
>> >  and web2py supports multiple database clients with Round-Robin.
>>
>> >  On a small VPS, web2py in average, should execute one page in 20ms.
>> >  Depending on how many requests/second you need you can determine how
>> >  many servers you need.
>>
>> >  web2py apps run on Google App Engine and that means arbitrary
>> >  scalability as long as you can live with the constraints imposed by
>> >  the Google datastore (these limitations will go away as soon as Google
>> >  releases MySQL in the cloud, which they announced some time ago).
>>
>> >  Please ask the consultant: which .NET feature makes it scale any
>> >  better than web2py or Rails? If he explains we can address it more
>> >  specifically.
>>
>> >  Massimo
>>
>> >  On Nov 29, 11:56 am, Lorin Rivers  wrote:
>>
>> > > The project I'm working on has hired a consultant who is now 
>> > > recommending .Net in place of web2py or even rails.
>>
>> > > What's the 'largest' scale web2py is known to perform well on?
>>
>> > > --
>> > > Lorin Rivers
>> > > Mosasaur: Killer Technical Marketing 
>> > > 
>> > > 512/203.3198 (m)
>>
>> > >> --
>> > >> Lorin Rivers
>> > >> Mosasaur: Killer Technical Marketing 
>> > >> 
>> > >> 512/203.3198 (m)
>>
>> > > --
>> > > Branko Vukelić
>>
>> > > bg.bra...@gmail.com
>> > > stu...@brankovukelic.com
>>
>> > > Check out my blog:http://www.brankovukelic.com/
>> > > Check out my portfolio:http://www.flickr.com/photos/foxbunny/
>> > > Registered Linux user #438078 (http://counter.li.org/)
>> > > I hang out on identi.ca:http://identi.ca/foxbunny
>>
>> > > Gimp Brushmakers Guild
>> > >http://bit.ly/gbg-group
>>
>>

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Jason Brower]

I did prototype in 2.5 weeks that would have taken months on Apache
Tomcat (what they were currently using).
And the company was massive, KONE.  The content had to handle thousands
of requests, work with 2 database times and lots of XML, and be easy to
use and expand.  I am not there now, but to this day they have always
been impress with how fast I was able to code. (I am still buddies with
the guys.)
BR,
Jason

On Mon, 2010-11-29 at 14:46 -0800, Christopher Steel wrote:

> +1
> 
> I agree, Web2py is excellent for low cost prototyping, much less
> than .NET and you will actually have something that works...
> 
> I hear that these guys can kick one out in under a month ->
> http://experts4solutions.com/
> 
> ; )
> 
> Chris
> 
> On Nov 29, 2:51 pm, mdipierro  wrote:
> > Some political considerations (which may be wrong and off topic and
> > improper)...
> >
> > Here is a problem with external consultants. They make more per hours
> > than the average employees. They get hired because of their specific
> > expertise to tell you what the boss wants to say but he prefers
> > somebody else to say (so he does not take the responsibility for
> > saying it).
> >
> > You cannot win this argument on technical merits. I would dismiss this
> > argument and point to Google as a scalability example and it is not
> > written in .net. I would address the real concern... you push web2py
> > therefore you are a single point of failure. If you leave who takes
> > care of this software? Not a problem with .net, they can always hire a
> > consultant.
> >
> > I would stress that using web2py is good for rapid prototyping and it
> > will allow the company to have a test product much sooner than
> > with .net and at much lower cost. Once the prototype is built you will
> > be in a better situation to assess whether web2py or .net is the best
> > tool for the job. If you start developing in .net you will have higher
> > startup costs and limited flexibility to change the specs. web2py code
> > is much more compact and readable than .net code and it will be easier
> > to train other people to work with it and learn how it works than
> > with .net. Tell them experts4solutions.com can sell them long term
> > support contracts and code review.
> >
> > The scalability bottle neck is the database. Offer something to the
> > consultant. .net uses mssql. If he claims mssql scales well for your
> > case, web2py will use mssql.
> >
> > If mssql does not scale well with web2py you have other options and do
> > not need to rewrite code.
> >
> > You can always reuse most of the design (html, js, css, images).
> >
> > Management costs. I am sure you can make the case it costs less to run
> > linux vps than windows ones (although I have no experience with the
> > latter).
> >
> > Massimo
> >
> > On Nov 29, 12:49 pm, Lorin Rivers  wrote:> 
> > Unfortunately, the killing argument is "we know .NET will scale to 
> > thousands of nodes, blah, blah, blah".
> >
> > > This from (a guy who's smart and I respect, honestly) who uses his 
> > > brand-new top-of-the-line 17" MBP to run Windows VMs in Parallels.
> >
> > > On Nov 29, 2010, at 12:20 , Julio Schwarzbeck wrote:
> >
> > > > And this without considering "vendor lock-in". web2py can run on a
> > > > variety of platforms such as windows, macs. Linux and others, same
> > > > goes for the selection of the back-end database. Much more flexibility
> > > > under web2py in my opinion and prototyping is much faster in python.
> >
> > > > On Nov 29, 10:05 am, mdipierro  wrote:
> > > >> You achieve scalability by replicating the web server behind a load
> > > >> balancer. This is documented in the book, chapter 11, using HAProxy.
> > > >> All frameworks work the same way in this respect. web2py has no
> > > >> intrinsic limitations. The bottle neck is the database connection. All
> > > >> frameworks have the same problem. You can replicate the database too
> > > >> and web2py supports multiple database clients with Round-Robin.
> >
> > > >> On a small VPS, web2py in average, should execute one page in 20ms.
> > > >> Depending on how many requests/second you need you can determine how
> > > >> many servers you need.
> >
> > > >> web2py apps run on Google App Engine and that means arbitrary
> > > >> scalability as long as you can live with the constraints imposed by
> > > >> the Google datastore (these limitations will go away as soon as Google
> > > >> releases MySQL in the cloud, which they announced some time ago).
> >
> > > >> Please ask the consultant: which .NET feature makes it scale any
> > > >> better than web2py or Rails? If he explains we can address it more
> > > >> specifically.
> >
> > > >> Massimo
> >
> > > >> On Nov 29, 11:56 am, Lorin Rivers  wrote:
> >
> > > >>> The project I'm working on has hired a consultant who is now 
> > > >>> recommending .Net in place of web2py or even rails.
> >
> > > >>> What's the 'largest' scale web2py is known to perform well on?
> >
> > > >>> --
> > > >>> Lorin 

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Jason Brower]

You may be suprised how good you are.  Especially in such short time you
can improve.  I went from barely scraping up web-pages to some pretty
impressive intra-net sites in just a few months.
.Net will eventually teach you how not to code.  It makes you truly
appriciate web2py.
It's tough to have persuade people that have a big bully behind them.  I
know the feeling, but if you can develop the prototype and you do it
right, you win.  Besides, I wonder if this consultant is coding at all.
His skills to code is directly relative to the statements he makes, at
least to me.
BR,
Jason

On Mon, 2010-11-29 at 18:09 -0600, Lorin Rivers wrote:

> The number of people that can write code better than I can is close to the 
> number of people who CAN write code…
> 
> On Nov 29, 2010, at 17:08 , Branko Vukelic wrote:
> 
> > We know .NET will scale to thousands of nodes IF you write the .NET
> > code right. If you write crappy code (and that's inevitable if you
> > don't like .NET or you don't know .NET), it will not only NOT run on
> > thousands of nodes, but will probably crash all of them.
> > 
> > Having said that... if they can help you write better code on .NET
> > than you currently write in web2py, the above argument turns on you.
> > 
> > On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 7:49 PM, Lorin Rivers  wrote:
> >> Unfortunately, the killing argument is "we know .NET will scale to 
> >> thousands of nodes, blah, blah, blah".
> >> 
> >> This from (a guy who's smart and I respect, honestly) who uses his 
> >> brand-new top-of-the-line 17" MBP to run Windows VMs in Parallels.
> >> 
> >> On Nov 29, 2010, at 12:20 , Julio Schwarzbeck wrote:
> >> 
> >>> And this without considering "vendor lock-in". web2py can run on a
> >>> variety of platforms such as windows, macs. Linux and others, same
> >>> goes for the selection of the back-end database. Much more flexibility
> >>> under web2py in my opinion and prototyping is much faster in python.
> >>> 
> >>> On Nov 29, 10:05 am, mdipierro  wrote:
>  You achieve scalability by replicating the web server behind a load
>  balancer. This is documented in the book, chapter 11, using HAProxy.
>  All frameworks work the same way in this respect. web2py has no
>  intrinsic limitations. The bottle neck is the database connection. All
>  frameworks have the same problem. You can replicate the database too
>  and web2py supports multiple database clients with Round-Robin.
>  
>  On a small VPS, web2py in average, should execute one page in 20ms.
>  Depending on how many requests/second you need you can determine how
>  many servers you need.
>  
>  web2py apps run on Google App Engine and that means arbitrary
>  scalability as long as you can live with the constraints imposed by
>  the Google datastore (these limitations will go away as soon as Google
>  releases MySQL in the cloud, which they announced some time ago).
>  
>  Please ask the consultant: which .NET feature makes it scale any
>  better than web2py or Rails? If he explains we can address it more
>  specifically.
>  
>  Massimo
>  
>  On Nov 29, 11:56 am, Lorin Rivers  wrote:
>  
>  
>  
> > The project I'm working on has hired a consultant who is now 
> > recommending .Net in place of web2py or even rails.
>  
> > What's the 'largest' scale web2py is known to perform well on?
>  
> > --
> > Lorin Rivers
> > Mosasaur: Killer Technical Marketing 
> > 
> > 512/203.3198 (m)
> >> 
> >> --
> >> Lorin Rivers
> >> Mosasaur: Killer Technical Marketing 
> >> 
> >> 512/203.3198 (m)
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Branko Vukelić
> > 
> > bg.bra...@gmail.com
> > stu...@brankovukelic.com
> > 
> > Check out my blog: http://www.brankovukelic.com/
> > Check out my portfolio: http://www.flickr.com/photos/foxbunny/
> > Registered Linux user #438078 (http://counter.li.org/)
> > I hang out on identi.ca: http://identi.ca/foxbunny
> > 
> > Gimp Brushmakers Guild
> > http://bit.ly/gbg-group
> 

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Lorin Rivers]

The number of people that can write code better than I can is close to the 
number of people who CAN write code…

On Nov 29, 2010, at 17:08 , Branko Vukelic wrote:

> We know .NET will scale to thousands of nodes IF you write the .NET
> code right. If you write crappy code (and that's inevitable if you
> don't like .NET or you don't know .NET), it will not only NOT run on
> thousands of nodes, but will probably crash all of them.
> 
> Having said that... if they can help you write better code on .NET
> than you currently write in web2py, the above argument turns on you.
> 
> On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 7:49 PM, Lorin Rivers  wrote:
>> Unfortunately, the killing argument is "we know .NET will scale to thousands 
>> of nodes, blah, blah, blah".
>> 
>> This from (a guy who's smart and I respect, honestly) who uses his brand-new 
>> top-of-the-line 17" MBP to run Windows VMs in Parallels.
>> 
>> On Nov 29, 2010, at 12:20 , Julio Schwarzbeck wrote:
>> 
>>> And this without considering "vendor lock-in". web2py can run on a
>>> variety of platforms such as windows, macs. Linux and others, same
>>> goes for the selection of the back-end database. Much more flexibility
>>> under web2py in my opinion and prototyping is much faster in python.
>>> 
>>> On Nov 29, 10:05 am, mdipierro  wrote:
 You achieve scalability by replicating the web server behind a load
 balancer. This is documented in the book, chapter 11, using HAProxy.
 All frameworks work the same way in this respect. web2py has no
 intrinsic limitations. The bottle neck is the database connection. All
 frameworks have the same problem. You can replicate the database too
 and web2py supports multiple database clients with Round-Robin.
 
 On a small VPS, web2py in average, should execute one page in 20ms.
 Depending on how many requests/second you need you can determine how
 many servers you need.
 
 web2py apps run on Google App Engine and that means arbitrary
 scalability as long as you can live with the constraints imposed by
 the Google datastore (these limitations will go away as soon as Google
 releases MySQL in the cloud, which they announced some time ago).
 
 Please ask the consultant: which .NET feature makes it scale any
 better than web2py or Rails? If he explains we can address it more
 specifically.
 
 Massimo
 
 On Nov 29, 11:56 am, Lorin Rivers  wrote:
 
 
 
> The project I'm working on has hired a consultant who is now recommending 
> .Net in place of web2py or even rails.
 
> What's the 'largest' scale web2py is known to perform well on?
 
> --
> Lorin Rivers
> Mosasaur: Killer Technical Marketing 
> 
> 512/203.3198 (m)
>> 
>> --
>> Lorin Rivers
>> Mosasaur: Killer Technical Marketing 
>> 
>> 512/203.3198 (m)
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Branko Vukelić
> 
> bg.bra...@gmail.com
> stu...@brankovukelic.com
> 
> Check out my blog: http://www.brankovukelic.com/
> Check out my portfolio: http://www.flickr.com/photos/foxbunny/
> Registered Linux user #438078 (http://counter.li.org/)
> I hang out on identi.ca: http://identi.ca/foxbunny
> 
> Gimp Brushmakers Guild
> http://bit.ly/gbg-group

-- 
Lorin Rivers
Mosasaur: Killer Technical Marketing 

512/203.3198 (m)

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Branko Vukelic]

We know .NET will scale to thousands of nodes IF you write the .NET
code right. If you write crappy code (and that's inevitable if you
don't like .NET or you don't know .NET), it will not only NOT run on
thousands of nodes, but will probably crash all of them.

Having said that... if they can help you write better code on .NET
than you currently write in web2py, the above argument turns on you.

On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 7:49 PM, Lorin Rivers  wrote:
> Unfortunately, the killing argument is "we know .NET will scale to thousands 
> of nodes, blah, blah, blah".
>
> This from (a guy who's smart and I respect, honestly) who uses his brand-new 
> top-of-the-line 17" MBP to run Windows VMs in Parallels.
>
> On Nov 29, 2010, at 12:20 , Julio Schwarzbeck wrote:
>
>> And this without considering "vendor lock-in". web2py can run on a
>> variety of platforms such as windows, macs. Linux and others, same
>> goes for the selection of the back-end database. Much more flexibility
>> under web2py in my opinion and prototyping is much faster in python.
>>
>> On Nov 29, 10:05 am, mdipierro  wrote:
>>> You achieve scalability by replicating the web server behind a load
>>> balancer. This is documented in the book, chapter 11, using HAProxy.
>>> All frameworks work the same way in this respect. web2py has no
>>> intrinsic limitations. The bottle neck is the database connection. All
>>> frameworks have the same problem. You can replicate the database too
>>> and web2py supports multiple database clients with Round-Robin.
>>>
>>> On a small VPS, web2py in average, should execute one page in 20ms.
>>> Depending on how many requests/second you need you can determine how
>>> many servers you need.
>>>
>>> web2py apps run on Google App Engine and that means arbitrary
>>> scalability as long as you can live with the constraints imposed by
>>> the Google datastore (these limitations will go away as soon as Google
>>> releases MySQL in the cloud, which they announced some time ago).
>>>
>>> Please ask the consultant: which .NET feature makes it scale any
>>> better than web2py or Rails? If he explains we can address it more
>>> specifically.
>>>
>>> Massimo
>>>
>>> On Nov 29, 11:56 am, Lorin Rivers  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
 The project I'm working on has hired a consultant who is now recommending 
 .Net in place of web2py or even rails.
>>>
 What's the 'largest' scale web2py is known to perform well on?
>>>
 --
 Lorin Rivers
 Mosasaur: Killer Technical Marketing 
 
 512/203.3198 (m)
>
> --
> Lorin Rivers
> Mosasaur: Killer Technical Marketing 
> 
> 512/203.3198 (m)
>
>
>



-- 
Branko Vukelić

bg.bra...@gmail.com
stu...@brankovukelic.com

Check out my blog: http://www.brankovukelic.com/
Check out my portfolio: http://www.flickr.com/photos/foxbunny/
Registered Linux user #438078 (http://counter.li.org/)
I hang out on identi.ca: http://identi.ca/foxbunny

Gimp Brushmakers Guild
http://bit.ly/gbg-group

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Michele Comitini]

great!

2010/11/29 Lorin Rivers :
> The good news is that the guy who hired ME picked web2py in the first place…
>
> On Nov 29, 2010, at 13:51 , mdipierro wrote:
>
>> Some political considerations (which may be wrong and off topic and
>> improper)...
>>
>> Here is a problem with external consultants. They make more per hours
>> than the average employees. They get hired because of their specific
>> expertise to tell you what the boss wants to say but he prefers
>> somebody else to say (so he does not take the responsibility for
>> saying it).
>>
>> You cannot win this argument on technical merits. I would dismiss this
>> argument and point to Google as a scalability example and it is not
>> written in .net. I would address the real concern... you push web2py
>> therefore you are a single point of failure. If you leave who takes
>> care of this software? Not a problem with .net, they can always hire a
>> consultant.
>>
>> I would stress that using web2py is good for rapid prototyping and it
>> will allow the company to have a test product much sooner than
>> with .net and at much lower cost. Once the prototype is built you will
>> be in a better situation to assess whether web2py or .net is the best
>> tool for the job. If you start developing in .net you will have higher
>> startup costs and limited flexibility to change the specs. web2py code
>> is much more compact and readable than .net code and it will be easier
>> to train other people to work with it and learn how it works than
>> with .net. Tell them experts4solutions.com can sell them long term
>> support contracts and code review.
>>
>> The scalability bottle neck is the database. Offer something to the
>> consultant. .net uses mssql. If he claims mssql scales well for your
>> case, web2py will use mssql.
>>
>> If mssql does not scale well with web2py you have other options and do
>> not need to rewrite code.
>>
>> You can always reuse most of the design (html, js, css, images).
>>
>> Management costs. I am sure you can make the case it costs less to run
>> linux vps than windows ones (although I have no experience with the
>> latter).
>>
>> Massimo
>
> --
> Lorin Rivers
> Mosasaur: Killer Technical Marketing 
> 
> 512/203.3198 (m)
>
>
>

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Lorin Rivers]

The good news is that the guy who hired ME picked web2py in the first place…

On Nov 29, 2010, at 13:51 , mdipierro wrote:

> Some political considerations (which may be wrong and off topic and
> improper)...
> 
> Here is a problem with external consultants. They make more per hours
> than the average employees. They get hired because of their specific
> expertise to tell you what the boss wants to say but he prefers
> somebody else to say (so he does not take the responsibility for
> saying it).
> 
> You cannot win this argument on technical merits. I would dismiss this
> argument and point to Google as a scalability example and it is not
> written in .net. I would address the real concern... you push web2py
> therefore you are a single point of failure. If you leave who takes
> care of this software? Not a problem with .net, they can always hire a
> consultant.
> 
> I would stress that using web2py is good for rapid prototyping and it
> will allow the company to have a test product much sooner than
> with .net and at much lower cost. Once the prototype is built you will
> be in a better situation to assess whether web2py or .net is the best
> tool for the job. If you start developing in .net you will have higher
> startup costs and limited flexibility to change the specs. web2py code
> is much more compact and readable than .net code and it will be easier
> to train other people to work with it and learn how it works than
> with .net. Tell them experts4solutions.com can sell them long term
> support contracts and code review.
> 
> The scalability bottle neck is the database. Offer something to the
> consultant. .net uses mssql. If he claims mssql scales well for your
> case, web2py will use mssql.
> 
> If mssql does not scale well with web2py you have other options and do
> not need to rewrite code.
> 
> You can always reuse most of the design (html, js, css, images).
> 
> Management costs. I am sure you can make the case it costs less to run
> linux vps than windows ones (although I have no experience with the
> latter).
> 
> Massimo

-- 
Lorin Rivers
Mosasaur: Killer Technical Marketing 

512/203.3198 (m)

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Michele Comitini]

@Lorin

Ask the consultant which architectures and languages he knows and let
him make a table of advantages and pitfalls of each.
You will be able to take your decisions then

A solution that fits for any problems does not exist, but theorical
scalability is a non issue on many frameworks.
Indeed programmers can make such errors that can make run slow even
the most powerful system :)

To scale .NET well you must run on OS' that scale well, so you better
run .NET on Mono and choose a proper OS.
Scalability is not only a matter of application framework, systems
like Linux allows you to put new nodes fast with no
licensing fights, you can make 1000s VMs in seconds, you cannot do
that on commercial OS'.
Also if database is involved that is another critical point for
scalability, commercial DBs scale at high cost.

mic


2010/11/29 ron_m :
> Beware the consultant that only recommends what they know about. :-)
>
> Sounds like early optimisation attempts by the consultant if you ask
> me. You have to do a traffic analysis on the network - sounds like
> these are scales at remote locations - how often do they report in,
> how much information per transaction, how much database activity per
> transaction? My belief is either the network or the database will be
> the real limiting factor. Worrying about whether or not the code is
> compiled at this point is blowing smoke IMHO with 2GHz+ 4 core Nehalem
> Xeons running $300 or $400 at most. CPU hardware is ridiculously
> cheap. On the busiest system I am looking after I have trouble pushing
> one core to 20% and I am moving 8 frames/sec of 704x480 pixel JPEG
> camera video from 24 cameras to disk, each camera generates about 1
> GByte of data per hour to put it in perspective. This is all done in
> Python layered over the C/C++ library gstreamer which is admittedly
> nothing to do with web2py but worth mentioning because of the
> languages used. The reason Python can be so fast is all the heavy
> lifting is done in C with the excellent integration to C libraries
> Python provides. Same thing goes for when you hit the database. I come
> from a Java background prior to Python and know what a pain JNI can be
> which is why Java types try to do it all in Java. With .Net you are in
> a similar environment to Java and have to do all the programming
> boilerplate other than what they can generate for you. Expect
> somewhere around 10x lines of code comparing .Net or Java to Python.
>
> A far more important consideration is what does the  programming team
> know and is efficient working in. Having worked in both Java and
> Python I can say with a certainty Python is like the walls have been
> knocked down dealing with collections for example. Not meaning to
> start any religious wars about languages but at age 59 I think I am
> officially an old fart, I have been in the industry since 1977 and
> have kept up to date with the technology else I would still be looking
> for Fortran jobs. :-)
>
> Ron
>
> On Nov 29, 10:20 am, Julio Schwarzbeck  wrote:
>> And this without considering "vendor lock-in". web2py can run on a
>> variety of platforms such as windows, macs. Linux and others, same
>> goes for the selection of the back-end database. Much more flexibility
>> under web2py in my opinion and prototyping is much faster in python.
>>
>> On Nov 29, 10:05 am, mdipierro  wrote:
>>
>> > You achieve scalability by replicating the web server behind a load
>> > balancer. This is documented in the book, chapter 11, using HAProxy.
>> > All frameworks work the same way in this respect. web2py has no
>> > intrinsic limitations. The bottle neck is the database connection. All
>> > frameworks have the same problem. You can replicate the database too
>> > and web2py supports multiple database clients with Round-Robin.
>>
>> > On a small VPS, web2py in average, should execute one page in 20ms.
>> > Depending on how many requests/second you need you can determine how
>> > many servers you need.
>>
>> > web2py apps run on Google App Engine and that means arbitrary
>> > scalability as long as you can live with the constraints imposed by
>> > the Google datastore (these limitations will go away as soon as Google
>> > releases MySQL in the cloud, which they announced some time ago).
>>
>> > Please ask the consultant: which .NET feature makes it scale any
>> > better than web2py or Rails? If he explains we can address it more
>> > specifically.
>>
>> > Massimo
>>
>> > On Nov 29, 11:56 am, Lorin Rivers  wrote:
>>
>> > > The project I'm working on has hired a consultant who is now 
>> > > recommending .Net in place of web2py or even rails.
>>
>> > > What's the 'largest' scale web2py is known to perform well on?
>>
>> > > --
>> > > Lorin Rivers
>> > > Mosasaur: Killer Technical Marketing 
>> > > 
>> > > 512/203.3198 (m)
>>
>>

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Lorin Rivers]

Unfortunately, the killing argument is "we know .NET will scale to thousands of 
nodes, blah, blah, blah".

This from (a guy who's smart and I respect, honestly) who uses his brand-new 
top-of-the-line 17" MBP to run Windows VMs in Parallels.

On Nov 29, 2010, at 12:20 , Julio Schwarzbeck wrote:

> And this without considering "vendor lock-in". web2py can run on a
> variety of platforms such as windows, macs. Linux and others, same
> goes for the selection of the back-end database. Much more flexibility
> under web2py in my opinion and prototyping is much faster in python.
> 
> On Nov 29, 10:05 am, mdipierro  wrote:
>> You achieve scalability by replicating the web server behind a load
>> balancer. This is documented in the book, chapter 11, using HAProxy.
>> All frameworks work the same way in this respect. web2py has no
>> intrinsic limitations. The bottle neck is the database connection. All
>> frameworks have the same problem. You can replicate the database too
>> and web2py supports multiple database clients with Round-Robin.
>> 
>> On a small VPS, web2py in average, should execute one page in 20ms.
>> Depending on how many requests/second you need you can determine how
>> many servers you need.
>> 
>> web2py apps run on Google App Engine and that means arbitrary
>> scalability as long as you can live with the constraints imposed by
>> the Google datastore (these limitations will go away as soon as Google
>> releases MySQL in the cloud, which they announced some time ago).
>> 
>> Please ask the consultant: which .NET feature makes it scale any
>> better than web2py or Rails? If he explains we can address it more
>> specifically.
>> 
>> Massimo
>> 
>> On Nov 29, 11:56 am, Lorin Rivers  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> The project I'm working on has hired a consultant who is now recommending 
>>> .Net in place of web2py or even rails.
>> 
>>> What's the 'largest' scale web2py is known to perform well on?
>> 
>>> --
>>> Lorin Rivers
>>> Mosasaur: Killer Technical Marketing 
>>> 
>>> 512/203.3198 (m)

-- 
Lorin Rivers
Mosasaur: Killer Technical Marketing 

512/203.3198 (m)

Re: [web2py] Re: Scalability of web2py?

[Lorin Rivers]

We're looking at utility scale deployments with thousands of nodes reporting 
data back to the server. That and the ability to compile .NET.

On Nov 29, 2010, at 12:05 , mdipierro wrote:

> You achieve scalability by replicating the web server behind a load
> balancer. This is documented in the book, chapter 11, using HAProxy.
> All frameworks work the same way in this respect. web2py has no
> intrinsic limitations. The bottle neck is the database connection. All
> frameworks have the same problem. You can replicate the database too
> and web2py supports multiple database clients with Round-Robin.
> 
> On a small VPS, web2py in average, should execute one page in 20ms.
> Depending on how many requests/second you need you can determine how
> many servers you need.
> 
> web2py apps run on Google App Engine and that means arbitrary
> scalability as long as you can live with the constraints imposed by
> the Google datastore (these limitations will go away as soon as Google
> releases MySQL in the cloud, which they announced some time ago).
> 
> Please ask the consultant: which .NET feature makes it scale any
> better than web2py or Rails? If he explains we can address it more
> specifically.
> 
> Massimo
> 
> On Nov 29, 11:56 am, Lorin Rivers  wrote:
>> The project I'm working on has hired a consultant who is now recommending 
>> .Net in place of web2py or even rails.
>> 
>> What's the 'largest' scale web2py is known to perform well on?
>> 
>> --
>> Lorin Rivers
>> Mosasaur: Killer Technical Marketing 
>> 
>> 512/203.3198 (m)

-- 
Lorin Rivers
Mosasaur: Killer Technical Marketing 

512/203.3198 (m)