[WSG] RE: accessible website menu

[Morgan]

Hi,

In my travels on the 'Net to find a compliant pop-up menu I came across the
UDM menu  - see:  http://www.udm4.com/ - which I am using under the
non-commercial license on my personal site but am also reviewing (via my
personal site) for work for use in our software and on client sites.

Anyway, as an advocate of accessible websites and tools, I thought the menu
was pretty good and thought that some of you may be interested in it as well
(I have no association what-so-ever with the developers of the toolbar - I
just found it via the web).   

So far, I have had feedback that there is an issue in some mozilla browsers
in linux, but when I sent a bug report via the contact area on the
brothercake website, I received the following reply - including a link to a
browser support chart:

-Original Message-
From: Brothercake
To: 'Kristen Morgan'
Subject: RE: [udm] Trouble in Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US;
rv:1.2.1) Gecko/20030225

Hi,

The menu script actually doesn't fully support mozilla browsers earlier than
1.3, if you use a relatively-positioned configuration, because of a browser
bug which I couldn't find a workaround for. It was serious enough that I had
to prevent those builds from rendering the menus at all.  The navbar works,
but the menus don't.

This is documented in the browser support chart at
http://www.udm4.com/about/browsers/#note4  I can certainly give you more
specifics about the bug that made this necssary, if you'd be interested, but
as far as I know there is nothing I can do to solve it.  Later builds -
anythihng from 1.3 onwards - have full support.


Thanks for the report, I very much appreciate it.  Let me know if you have
further questions or comments.


James Edwards
--- end original message ---

- Hope some of you find tool useful.




e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
PO Box 268, North Adelaide  SA  5006
mobile +61 0 412 041 008
http://www.grudknows.com/


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Re: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?

[Beau]

Chris Blown said:
> 1. As Beau mentions dynamically generate the style sheet.
> 
>
> Not sure here, but method 1 might have caching issues, I've never tried
> this, so perhaps Beau can comment here.

you might run into some caching issues here, depending on the volume that
you're dealing with. again, using headers, you could work around this. you can
set a header with something like

header('Content-expiry: date here');

or something like that (can't remember the exact header declaration off the
top of my head) and just tell the UA to cache the output for a certain period
of time, so that even tho you're repeatedly calling cssmaker.php, the browser
should cache the output.

another option would be temporary filesystem caching on the server, which can
work quite well, where you write the css file once, then if it exists and is
under a certain age, just give that to the user rather that hitting the
database again. that can help on the server side a little :)

Beau
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RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Taco Fleur]

Yup, I'm in favor if it.

If you want to receive all emails in one folder you can still redirect all
posts from all three emails/lists to one folder, it would be just like it is
now, but those people interested in WSG would benefit by not receiving
anything else but just that.

Can I also suggest at every outgoing email either the footer or the header
you include this info, i.e.

For any .. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For any CSS related blah blah send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For any HTML related blah blah send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Reason being people tend to forget or get lazy, and you might be reading a
post in WSG and come up with this CSS question and in in the spur of the
moment you click reply and post your question to the wrong list, instead you
could easily click the proper link and have it to open up a new email.

Just a thought

Taco Fleur
Blog http://www.tacofleur.com/index/blog/
Methodology http://www.tacofleur.com/index/methodology/

Tell me and I will forget
Show me and I will remember
Teach me and I will learn 


> -Original Message-
> From: David McDonald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 3:39 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if I'm for splitting the mailing list up into 
> several lists. 
> 
> As others have said, it would then make it "sort of" like a 
> forum - I would be checking several folders in my mailing 
> client, and maybe missing out on some important or interesting post...
> 
> Are others in favour of doing this? Or not?
> 
>  Original Message 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:15:35 +1100
> 
> >
> >> I might just point out some of the other WSG bits & pieces 
> that many 
> >> people probably aren't aware of:
> >>  - the resources section
> >>  (which I
> >> believe everyone on the list is able to add to)
> >>  - the WSG CMS list (buggered if I can remember how you join...
> >Pete?)
> >
> >Thanks Lindsay.
> >
> >It's only had 8 posts so far (4 from me).
> >See http://www.mail-archive.com/cms%40webstandardsgroup.org/
> >
> >To join, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
> >"subscribe cms"
> >(no quotes) as the body (not subject).
> >
> >The [WSG] is added at the mail server so Taco's would be an addition
> >to that
> >which I can't see working (I'd forget every time).
> >
> >I'm happy to set up different lists if you like, but maintenance
> >would be a
> >bit weird. We get a couple of hundred bounces every day (and if
> >you've
> >mysteriously been transformed to digest mode it means that you were
> >bouncing
> >for an extended period and I changed your mode so I only had one
> >bounce per
> >day from you to deal with).
> >
> >So far we have:
> >
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] (The primary one)
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] (optional)
> >
> >We could also do other variants:
> >
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >This would mean that people only interested in general standards
> >discussion
> >could just remain on the default list and those that wanted to also
> >get (or
> >give) CSS help could joint the CSS list as well.
> >
> >I would make the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mandatory (your login is
> >based on
> >this one) with the others as options. There should be no increase in
> >traffic, just a split and a possibility of significantly less traffic
> >for
> >the person that doesn't do CSS coding but wants to keep abreast of
> >the other
> >discussions.
> >
> >It would mean that I would bulk subscribe everyone currently on wsg@
> >to each
> >of the new lists (but not cms@) and then allow you to unsub each
> >manually if
> >you want to as I don't want to have to enter specifics for 330ish
> >people.
> >
> >Is this worth pursuing?
> >
> >While we're at it...
> >
> >Please make sure you free email account doesn't go over quota.
> >Please don't ever request read receipts (I get most of them rather
> >than
> >you).
> >
> >P
> >
> >
> >*
> >The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> >* 
> >
> 
> Regards,
> 
> David McDonald
> Web Designer
> http://www.davidmcdonald.org
> 
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> * 
> 

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RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Peter Ottery]

Title: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list





David wrote:
>>  I don't know if I'm for splitting 
>>  the mailing list up into several lists. 
>>  &
>>  Are others in favour of doing this? Or not?


I'll put my hand up for not splitting the list and also for leaving as-is.
I can deal with the volume and think the continual cross-over between standards opinion/theory and practice is pretty valuable for all the reasons mentioned.

the pointers to succinct explanations on Russ' maxdesign site (http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/) or elsewhere on the web seem to work well and keep the repetitive 'how-to' emails (that are always going to come up no matter what you do) to a minimum thread length.

pete


Peter Ottery
Lead Web Designer
f2 network - www.f2.com.au
02 8596 4450

Re: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?

[Leo J. O'Campo]

Seona

You could assignment the stylesheet from a cookie with php variables.

Leo

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RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[David McDonald]

I don't know if I'm for splitting the mailing list up into several
lists. 

As others have said, it would then make it "sort of" like a forum - I
would be checking several folders in my mailing client, and maybe
missing out on some important or interesting post...

Are others in favour of doing this? Or not?

 Original Message 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 16:15:35 +1100

>
>> I might just point out some of the other WSG bits & pieces
>> that many people
>> probably aren't aware of:
>>  - the resources section
>>  (which I
>> believe everyone on the list is able to add to)
>>  - the WSG CMS list (buggered if I can remember how you join...
>Pete?)
>
>Thanks Lindsay.
>
>It's only had 8 posts so far (4 from me).
>See http://www.mail-archive.com/cms%40webstandardsgroup.org/
>
>To join, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
>"subscribe cms"
>(no quotes) as the body (not subject).
>
>The [WSG] is added at the mail server so Taco's would be an addition
>to that
>which I can't see working (I'd forget every time).
>
>I'm happy to set up different lists if you like, but maintenance
>would be a
>bit weird. We get a couple of hundred bounces every day (and if
>you've
>mysteriously been transformed to digest mode it means that you were
>bouncing
>for an extended period and I changed your mode so I only had one
>bounce per
>day from you to deal with).
>
>So far we have:
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (The primary one)
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] (optional)
>
>We could also do other variants:
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>This would mean that people only interested in general standards
>discussion
>could just remain on the default list and those that wanted to also
>get (or
>give) CSS help could joint the CSS list as well.
>
>I would make the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mandatory (your login is
>based on
>this one) with the others as options. There should be no increase in
>traffic, just a split and a possibility of significantly less traffic
>for
>the person that doesn't do CSS coding but wants to keep abreast of
>the other
>discussions.
>
>It would mean that I would bulk subscribe everyone currently on wsg@
>to each
>of the new lists (but not cms@) and then allow you to unsub each
>manually if
>you want to as I don't want to have to enter specifics for 330ish
>people.
>
>Is this worth pursuing?
>
>While we're at it...
>
>Please make sure you free email account doesn't go over quota.
>Please don't ever request read receipts (I get most of them rather
>than
>you).
>
>P
>
>
>*
>The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>* 
>

Regards,

David McDonald
Web Designer
http://www.davidmcdonald.org

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RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list [Virus checkedAU]

[Viktor . Radnai]

This email is to be read subject to the disclaimer below.


Hi all,

"David McDonald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So how about doing something similar to what Simon Willison has done
> for the CSS-Discuss mailing list? He has created a "companion" site
> that basically has a list of FAQs, tecnhiques, how-to's, step by step
> examples etc.
That would be great. Particularly a section listing common browser (IE)
bugs (with screenshots or links to relevant articles perhaps). That way we
could just post the link that's related to the problem and get rid of the
duplicates.

> We have the Resources page on our site,
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/ so maybe we should get in
> there and use it in a similar way. This would be beneficial to
> everyone, both new members and old, as we could point people with
> specifc problems to the resources pages, and maybe keep the list a
> little less heavy in the process.
I have an evil plan... why not ask the persons we help to put together a
page with the problem and the solution and submit it afterwards. They could
consider doing this as sort of thanking the list for solving their problem
and giving back something in return.
Of course this cannot (and perhaps shouldn't) be policed that strictly but
it hey, karma works for Slashdot ;-) And writing documentation gives less
CSS-savvy users an opportunity to contribute. Other people can then edit
the docs or add to them if it's necessary.

Just a thought...

Cheers,
Vik
--
Viktor Radnai
System Administrator / Web Developer
Business Innovation Online
Ernst & Young Australia
http://www.eyware.com/
http://www.eyonline.com/
Direct: +612 9248 4361
Fax: +612 9248 4073
Mobile: +61408 662 546


   

   "David  

   McDonald"   To:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  

   <[EMAIL PROTECTED] cc:  
   
   nald.org>   Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this 
mailing list  [Virus checkedAU]  
   

   10/03/2004  

   03:38 PM

   Please respond  

   to wsg  

   

   





Hi there,

I've also recently been a little concerned by the amount of "how to"
posts, and the repetitive back and forth email that some of these
posts generate.

However, I do realise that people find some of these posts valuable.

When thinking about it a bit more, I realised that it's actually the
solutions to these problems that people find valuable.

So how about doing something similar to what Simon Willison has done
for the CSS-Discuss mailing list? He has created a "companion" site
that basically has a list of FAQs, tecnhiques, how-to's, step by step
examples etc.

We have the Resources page on our site,
http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/ so maybe we should get in
there and use it in a similar way. This would be beneficial to
everyone, both new members and old, as we could point people with
specifc problems to the resources pages, and maybe keep the list a
little less heavy in the process.

This would take some effort on our behalf - I am happy to dedicate
some time into getting the Resources pages up to speed, and I know
others would as well.

What does everyone think?

Regards.

David McDonald


 Original Message 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:53:38 +1100

>
>Hi Taco
>
>> [CSS]
>> [WSG] Web Standards
>> [OT] Off topic
>> {TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)
>
>If you're in the mood to write a [OT] or [TOT] message - please
>don't. Mail
>volume is an issue and the list mums (Russ & Peter) have made call -
>keep it
>on topic or post else where (like CFAUSSIE where this stuff is ok).
>
>I'm not meaning 

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Lindsay Evans]

Peter Firminger wrote:
> We could also do other variants:
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

> Is this worth pursuing?

Sounds good to me, although I'd be more in favour of something like:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> While we're at it...
>
> Please make sure you free email account doesn't go over quota.
> Please don't ever request read receipts (I get most of them rather
> than you).

Also, please temporarily unsubscribe (or is there a 'nomail' option?) from
the list if you're going to have one of those annoying 'vacation' messages.

--
 Lindsay Evans.
 Developer,
 Red Square Productions.

 [p] 8596.4000
 [f] 8596.4001
 [w] www.redsquare.com.au

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[WSG] RE: [WSG-multiple list "hurrah"] Purpose of this mailing list

[Devlin Peter W]

I bet you get a lot of "Out of the office, if this is an emergency" auto 
responders too!
I'm a fledgling with CSS and also the 'Web Development' package so I find these 
e-mails very educational and often funny.

Regards,
Pete

-Original Message-
From: Peter Firminger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 23:16
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list



> I might just point out some of the other WSG bits & pieces
> that many people
> probably aren't aware of:
>  - the resources section
>  (which I
> believe everyone on the list is able to add to)
>  - the WSG CMS list (buggered if I can remember how you join... Pete?)

Thanks Lindsay.

It's only had 8 posts so far (4 from me).
See http://www.mail-archive.com/cms%40webstandardsgroup.org/

To join, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "subscribe cms"
(no quotes) as the body (not subject).

The [WSG] is added at the mail server so Taco's would be an addition to that
which I can't see working (I'd forget every time).

I'm happy to set up different lists if you like, but maintenance would be a
bit weird. We get a couple of hundred bounces every day (and if you've
mysteriously been transformed to digest mode it means that you were bouncing
for an extended period and I changed your mode so I only had one bounce per
day from you to deal with).

So far we have:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (The primary one)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (optional)

We could also do other variants:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

This would mean that people only interested in general standards discussion
could just remain on the default list and those that wanted to also get (or
give) CSS help could joint the CSS list as well.

I would make the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mandatory (your login is based on
this one) with the others as options. There should be no increase in
traffic, just a split and a possibility of significantly less traffic for
the person that doesn't do CSS coding but wants to keep abreast of the other
discussions.

It would mean that I would bulk subscribe everyone currently on wsg@ to each
of the new lists (but not cms@) and then allow you to unsub each manually if
you want to as I don't want to have to enter specifics for 330ish people.

Is this worth pursuing?

While we're at it...

Please make sure you free email account doesn't go over quota.
Please don't ever request read receipts (I get most of them rather than
you).

P


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RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Martin Baylis]

My thoughts exactly

The volume of email is a minor annoynace, however most email clients
(especially Outlook) are not particularly good at logicall managming
conversation threads.

A forum would be much more efficient for reading.

Only concern is that timely replies may drop off.

Regrads

Martin

-Original Message-
From: Paul Ross [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 4:21 p.m.
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list


The trouble with this list - and the people on it - is that you are all too
helpful and friendly. I am also a member of the Webesign-L.com list and
would never post there because the list-mom and most of the members seem to
be arrogant elitist techno-fascists who sneer and chide those of us further
down the learning curve. 

Learning to build to web standards does require a steep learning curve and
this list is an excellent resource and helping hand when you need it.

Having said that - when we get to 1,000 members I guess something will have
to be done or the success of the list could implode in on itself and the
noise traffic become too much to handle. I would suggest that you think of
switching to a forum based website much like the excellent
http://forums.australianinfront.com.au/Default.aspx

Regards
PAUL ROSS
SkyRocket Design Co
http://www.skyrocket.com.au

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Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Sennan Lagaluga]

> Please don't ever request read receipts (I get most of them rather 
than> you).
 
i have just disabled my read receipts. 

 
sorry about that  *blushes in 
embarassment*
 
 
Sennan
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Peter Firminger 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 3:15 
  PM
  Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this 
  mailing list

RE: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?

[Seona Bellamy]

Thanks Chris. I should be ready to actually tackle this issue in the next
few days (fingers crossed) and I will keep in mind your suggestions, along
with everything else that people have kindly pointed me at. :)

At the moment, I think I am favouring the inline version, which I am taking
to mean putting the stylesheet in the  of the document and pulling the
values out of the database from there. It seems a lot less complicated. I
like less complicated right now... I have enough to do that IS complicated.
*grin*

I suppose for the setting both to black, you could always do a validation
check when they are entering colours into the database, that foreground and
background colours do not match. :)

Cheers,

Seona.

-Original Message-
From: Chris Blown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 4:16 PM
To: WSG
Subject: Re: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?



Seona

You've got a few choices

1. As Beau mentions dynamically generate the style sheet.


2. Adjust inline style dynamically from the database

3. Have a collection of style sheets that are themes, Zen Garden style.
eg.


Not sure here, but method 1 might have caching issues, I've never tried
this, so perhaps Beau can comment here.

Inline styles are fine, only include the one you want members to modify.
The theme style sheet method gives you less database content ( only the
name of the style sheet ) and better control of what the site looks
like, although this can limit the members choice of colours it does stop
members from setting the text and background colours both to black. I've
seen this sort of thing before and it goes something like this

"Why can't I see anything its all black?"

Regards
Chris Blown
http://hinterlands.com.au

On Wed, 2004-03-10 at 15:38, Beau wrote:
> You can do this with something like PHP, just a script that does something
> like this
>
> 
>
>  header('Content-type: text/css');
>
> echo 'H1 { font-family: Arial; }
> // etc!
>
> ?>
>
> obviously, once you have something like that running, you can just change
it
> so that the echo line pulls content from a database, then dumps it out,
> pretending to be a stylesheet :)
>
> HTH
>
> Beau

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RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Peter Firminger]

> I might just point out some of the other WSG bits & pieces
> that many people
> probably aren't aware of:
>  - the resources section
>  (which I
> believe everyone on the list is able to add to)
>  - the WSG CMS list (buggered if I can remember how you join... Pete?)

Thanks Lindsay.

It's only had 8 posts so far (4 from me).
See http://www.mail-archive.com/cms%40webstandardsgroup.org/

To join, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "subscribe cms"
(no quotes) as the body (not subject).

The [WSG] is added at the mail server so Taco's would be an addition to that
which I can't see working (I'd forget every time).

I'm happy to set up different lists if you like, but maintenance would be a
bit weird. We get a couple of hundred bounces every day (and if you've
mysteriously been transformed to digest mode it means that you were bouncing
for an extended period and I changed your mode so I only had one bounce per
day from you to deal with).

So far we have:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (The primary one)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (optional)

We could also do other variants:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

This would mean that people only interested in general standards discussion
could just remain on the default list and those that wanted to also get (or
give) CSS help could joint the CSS list as well.

I would make the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mandatory (your login is based on
this one) with the others as options. There should be no increase in
traffic, just a split and a possibility of significantly less traffic for
the person that doesn't do CSS coding but wants to keep abreast of the other
discussions.

It would mean that I would bulk subscribe everyone currently on wsg@ to each
of the new lists (but not cms@) and then allow you to unsub each manually if
you want to as I don't want to have to enter specifics for 330ish people.

Is this worth pursuing?

While we're at it...

Please make sure you free email account doesn't go over quota.
Please don't ever request read receipts (I get most of them rather than
you).

P


*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

Re: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?

[Chris Blown]

Seona

You've got a few choices 

1. As Beau mentions dynamically generate the style sheet. 
 

2. Adjust inline style dynamically from the database

3. Have a collection of style sheets that are themes, Zen Garden style.
eg.

 
Not sure here, but method 1 might have caching issues, I've never tried
this, so perhaps Beau can comment here.

Inline styles are fine, only include the one you want members to modify.
The theme style sheet method gives you less database content ( only the
name of the style sheet ) and better control of what the site looks
like, although this can limit the members choice of colours it does stop
members from setting the text and background colours both to black. I've
seen this sort of thing before and it goes something like this 

"Why can't I see anything its all black?"

Regards
Chris Blown
http://hinterlands.com.au
 
On Wed, 2004-03-10 at 15:38, Beau wrote:
> You can do this with something like PHP, just a script that does something
> like this
> 
> 
> 
>  header('Content-type: text/css');
> 
> echo 'H1 { font-family: Arial; }
> // etc!
> 
> ?>
> 
> obviously, once you have something like that running, you can just change it
> so that the echo line pulls content from a database, then dumps it out,
> pretending to be a stylesheet :)
> 
> HTH
> 
> Beau

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* 

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Simon Dodson]

Alas finally some sanity for my inbox 


Quoting Sennan Lagaluga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> i like that idea.
> 
> 
> Sennan Lagaluga
> Mock Orange Web Site Development
> U: www.mockorange.com.au
> P: 07 4953 4035
> F: 07 4953 4030
> 
> 1st Floor, 92 Victoria Street
> Mackay   Q   Australia 4740
> 
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: Taco Fleur 
>   To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>   Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 1:51 PM
>   Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
> 
> 
> 
>   PS. for those of you who are tired of to many emails in their email client,
> why not propose a new standard for the Subject of the emails going to the
> list?
> 
>   [CSS] 
>   [WSG] Web Standards
>   [OT] Off topic
>   {TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)
> 
>   That way you can auto delete 
> 
>   [CSS] 
>   [OT]
>   {TOT]
> 
>   And read anything with WSG
> 
>   Taco Fleur
>   07 3535 5072
> 




-
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* 

RE: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?

[Seona Bellamy]

Ah, cool! Thanks.

Cheers,

Seona.

-Original Message-
From: Lindsay Evans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 3:54 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?



Seona Bellamy wrote:
> Just to make sure I understand you, Beau, the php code you show is the
> content of that cssmaker.php that you put in the href?
>
> Not sure if I can duplicate that with CF - it's that "header" bit
> that is the biggest problem I guess. Does anyone know if there's a
> similar function
> in CF?

Sure, use the cfheader tag:



Also, make sure you throw a  so as not to
include all the debugging info.

--
 Lindsay Evans.
 Developer,
 Red Square Productions.

 [p] 8596.4000
 [f] 8596.4001
 [w] www.redsquare.com.au

*
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* 


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RE: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?

[Seona Bellamy]

Interesting article. :) Thanks. I might have to have a go at it later.

And as far as I am aware (unless my hosting provider has changed servers and
not told anyone) it is running on Apache.

Cheers,

Seona.

-Original Message-
From: James Ellis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 3:53 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?



Seona

There are a number of ways to do this - the easiest way to do it is by
populating some 

RE: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?

[Beau]

Yep Seona, that's it.

You *might* get away without that header, but it's there to make it
technically correct, and make sure that your browser doesn't freak out,
because otherwise PHP will make the content appear (according to the header)
as text/html format I think.

Give it a go with CF if you like, just leave out the header and see what
happens - just make sure you have the type="text/css" in the LINK - that might
be enough to force the content type.

You'll want to check that in all browsers to make sure they all eat it tho :)

Beau

-- 
Beau Lebens
Information Architect
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dented Reality - www.dentedreality.com.au
Information Architecture, Usability, Web Development

Seona Bellamy said:
>
> Just to make sure I understand you, Beau, the php code you show is the
> content of that cssmaker.php that you put in the href?
>
> Not sure if I can duplicate that with CF - it's that "header" bit that is
> the biggest problem I guess. Does anyone know if there's a similar function
> in CF?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Seona.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Beau [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 3:38 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?
>
>
>
> You can do this with something like PHP, just a script that does something
> like this
>
> 
>
>  header('Content-type: text/css');
>
> echo 'H1 { font-family: Arial; }
> // etc!
>
> ?>
>
> obviously, once you have something like that running, you can just change it
> so that the echo line pulls content from a database, then dumps it out,
> pretending to be a stylesheet :)
>
> HTH
>
> Beau
>
> --
> Beau Lebens
> Information Architect
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dented Reality - www.dentedreality.com.au
> Information Architecture, Usability, Web Development
>
> Seona Bellamy said:
>>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> Is this even possible? What I have is a site that gives people a chance to
>> set up their own information sections where they can record their own
>> content. I would like that an account holder can state which colours, font
>> sizes, font styles, etc they want for their section and have this
>> information gets recorded in a database. That's the easy bit, and I can do
>> that no problem. What I need then if that when a user navigates to a
>> particular section, the system pulls these values from the database and
>> populates the stylesheet with them so that the section displays in the
>> requested colours and styles.
>>
>> If it makes any difference, I'm working in ColdFusion.
>>
>> Of course, if this is just a pipe dream then I'll just have to sit down
> and
>> figure out another way around the problem. Id really prefer not to have to
>> use the selection form as a way for account holders to email me their
>> preferences so I can make them a new stylesheet if I can help it... :)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Seona.
>> ---
>> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>> Version: 6.0.605 / Virus Database: 385 - Release Date: 1/03/2004
>>
>> *
>> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>> *
>>
>>
>
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> *
>
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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>
> ---
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>
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> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> *
>
>

*
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* 

RE: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?

[Lindsay Evans]

Seona Bellamy wrote:
> Just to make sure I understand you, Beau, the php code you show is the
> content of that cssmaker.php that you put in the href?
>
> Not sure if I can duplicate that with CF - it's that "header" bit
> that is the biggest problem I guess. Does anyone know if there's a
> similar function
> in CF?

Sure, use the cfheader tag:



Also, make sure you throw a  so as not to
include all the debugging info.

--
 Lindsay Evans.
 Developer,
 Red Square Productions.

 [p] 8596.4000
 [f] 8596.4001
 [w] www.redsquare.com.au

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

RE: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?

[Seona Bellamy]

Hmm... 
that's a definite possibility. Might have to think a bit about that one. Thanks. 
:)
 
If the 
"stylesheet" were to be included in the head of the document, rather than an 
external file, this should work
 
Cheers,
 
Seona.

  -Original Message-From: Sennan Lagaluga 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 
  3:47 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] 
  Dynamically populating stylesheets?
  you could use inline styles to pull the required 
  value(s) from the database. eg: (background-color: <% your.recordset.value 
  %>;)
   
  dynamically generating a css document from a 
  dbase is beyond my feeble skills.
   
   
  Sennan LagalugaMock Orange Web Site 
  DevelopmentU: www.mockorange.com.auP: 07 4953 
  4035F: 07 4953 40301st 
  Floor, 92 Victoria StreetMackay   Q   Australia 
  4740
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Seona 
Bellamy 
To: WSG List 
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 2:31 
PM
Subject: [WSG] Dynamically populating 
stylesheets?
Hi guys,Is this even possible? What I have is a 
site that gives people a chance toset up their own information sections 
where they can record their owncontent. I would like that an account 
holder can state which colours, fontsizes, font styles, etc they want 
for their section and have thisinformation gets recorded in a database. 
That's the easy bit, and I can dothat no problem. What I need then if 
that when a user navigates to aparticular section, the system pulls 
these values from the database andpopulates the stylesheet with them so 
that the section displays in therequested colours and styles.If 
it makes any difference, I'm working in ColdFusion.Of course, if 
this is just a pipe dream then I'll just have to sit down andfigure out 
another way around the problem. Id really prefer not to have touse the 
selection form as a way for account holders to email me theirpreferences 
so I can make them a new stylesheet if I can help it... 
:)Cheers,Seona.---Outgoing mail is certified Virus 
Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 
6.0.605 / Virus Database: 385 - Release Date: 
1/03/2004*The 
discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/* 

Re: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?

[James Ellis]

Seona

There are a number of ways to do this - the easiest way to do it is by 
populating some 

RE: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?

[Seona Bellamy]

Just to make sure I understand you, Beau, the php code you show is the
content of that cssmaker.php that you put in the href?

Not sure if I can duplicate that with CF - it's that "header" bit that is
the biggest problem I guess. Does anyone know if there's a similar function
in CF?

Thanks,

Seona.

-Original Message-
From: Beau [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 3:38 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?



You can do this with something like PHP, just a script that does something
like this





obviously, once you have something like that running, you can just change it
so that the echo line pulls content from a database, then dumps it out,
pretending to be a stylesheet :)

HTH

Beau

--
Beau Lebens
Information Architect
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dented Reality - www.dentedreality.com.au
Information Architecture, Usability, Web Development

Seona Bellamy said:
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Is this even possible? What I have is a site that gives people a chance to
> set up their own information sections where they can record their own
> content. I would like that an account holder can state which colours, font
> sizes, font styles, etc they want for their section and have this
> information gets recorded in a database. That's the easy bit, and I can do
> that no problem. What I need then if that when a user navigates to a
> particular section, the system pulls these values from the database and
> populates the stylesheet with them so that the section displays in the
> requested colours and styles.
>
> If it makes any difference, I'm working in ColdFusion.
>
> Of course, if this is just a pipe dream then I'll just have to sit down
and
> figure out another way around the problem. Id really prefer not to have to
> use the selection form as a way for account holders to email me their
> preferences so I can make them a new stylesheet if I can help it... :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Seona.
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.605 / Virus Database: 385 - Release Date: 1/03/2004
>
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> *
>
>

*
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*


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Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Chris Blown]

Leo, that is indeed a good point.

As much as I enjoy [EMAIL PROTECTED], I find that the WSG list provides
good information on real world implementation, which is not really
discussed on these other lists.

I agree that volume here should be kept to a minimum, but I wouldn't
call its current activity high volume by a long shot, if you want volume
join something like [EMAIL PROTECTED] :|

Pushing the idea of reading and searching the WSG mail archive before
posting is a good way to reduce lots of repeat questions.

Overall I think the list is great.

Regards
Chris Blown
http://hinterlands.com.au

> As such we need to discuss the evolving nature of web standards.  But 
> in the real world web standards are not an isolated topic. The debate 
> cannot be conducted at the academic level without the experiences of 
> what works and what doesn't.  I believe and sense that the dedicated 
> people here realize that for web standards to work in the field they 
> must be experienced and explored in the field.
> 


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* 

Re: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?

[Sennan Lagaluga]

you could use inline styles to pull the required 
value(s) from the database. eg: (background-color: <% your.recordset.value 
%>;)
 
dynamically generating a css document from a 
dbase is beyond my feeble skills.
 
 
Sennan LagalugaMock Orange Web Site 
DevelopmentU: www.mockorange.com.auP: 07 4953 
4035F: 07 4953 40301st 
Floor, 92 Victoria StreetMackay   Q   Australia 
4740

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Seona 
  Bellamy 
  To: WSG List 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 2:31 
  PM
  Subject: [WSG] Dynamically populating 
  stylesheets?
  Hi guys,Is this even possible? What I have is a 
  site that gives people a chance toset up their own information sections 
  where they can record their owncontent. I would like that an account 
  holder can state which colours, fontsizes, font styles, etc they want for 
  their section and have thisinformation gets recorded in a database. That's 
  the easy bit, and I can dothat no problem. What I need then if that when a 
  user navigates to aparticular section, the system pulls these values from 
  the database andpopulates the stylesheet with them so that the section 
  displays in therequested colours and styles.If it makes any 
  difference, I'm working in ColdFusion.Of course, if this is just a 
  pipe dream then I'll just have to sit down andfigure out another way 
  around the problem. Id really prefer not to have touse the selection form 
  as a way for account holders to email me theirpreferences so I can make 
  them a new stylesheet if I can help it... 
  :)Cheers,Seona.---Outgoing mail is certified Virus 
  Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.605 
  / Virus Database: 385 - Release Date: 
  1/03/2004*The 
  discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/* 
  

Re: [WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?

[Beau]

You can do this with something like PHP, just a script that does something
like this





obviously, once you have something like that running, you can just change it
so that the echo line pulls content from a database, then dumps it out,
pretending to be a stylesheet :)

HTH

Beau

-- 
Beau Lebens
Information Architect
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dented Reality - www.dentedreality.com.au
Information Architecture, Usability, Web Development

Seona Bellamy said:
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Is this even possible? What I have is a site that gives people a chance to
> set up their own information sections where they can record their own
> content. I would like that an account holder can state which colours, font
> sizes, font styles, etc they want for their section and have this
> information gets recorded in a database. That's the easy bit, and I can do
> that no problem. What I need then if that when a user navigates to a
> particular section, the system pulls these values from the database and
> populates the stylesheet with them so that the section displays in the
> requested colours and styles.
>
> If it makes any difference, I'm working in ColdFusion.
>
> Of course, if this is just a pipe dream then I'll just have to sit down and
> figure out another way around the problem. Id really prefer not to have to
> use the selection form as a way for account holders to email me their
> preferences so I can make them a new stylesheet if I can help it... :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Seona.
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.605 / Virus Database: 385 - Release Date: 1/03/2004
>
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> *
>
>

*
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* 

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[David McDonald]

Hi there,

I've also recently been a little concerned by the amount of "how to"
posts, and the repetitive back and forth email that some of these
posts generate.

However, I do realise that people find some of these posts valuable.

When thinking about it a bit more, I realised that it's actually the
solutions to these problems that people find valuable. 

So how about doing something similar to what Simon Willison has done
for the CSS-Discuss mailing list? He has created a "companion" site 
that basically has a list of FAQs, tecnhiques, how-to's, step by step
examples etc.

We have the Resources page on our site,
http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/ so maybe we should get in
there and use it in a similar way. This would be beneficial to 
everyone, both new members and old, as we could point people with
specifc problems to the resources pages, and maybe keep the list a
little less heavy in the process.

This would take some effort on our behalf - I am happy to dedicate
some time into getting the Resources pages up to speed, and I know
others would as well.

What does everyone think?

Regards.

David McDonald


 Original Message 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 14:53:38 +1100

>
>Hi Taco
>
>> [CSS]
>> [WSG] Web Standards
>> [OT] Off topic
>> {TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)
>
>If you're in the mood to write a [OT] or [TOT] message - please
>don't. Mail
>volume is an issue and the list mums (Russ & Peter) have made call -
>keep it
>on topic or post else where (like CFAUSSIE where this stuff is ok).
>
>I'm not meaning to be harsh but we need to be considerate of those
>that are
>concerned about mail volume.
>
>
>Cheers
>
>Mark
>
>
>--
>Mark Stanton 
>Technical Director 
>Gruden Pty Ltd 
>Tel: 9956 6388
>Mob: 0410 458 201 
>Fax: 9956 8433 
>http://www.gruden.com  
>
>*
>The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>* 
>

Regards,

David McDonald
Web Designer
http://www.davidmcdonald.org

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
*

[WSG] Dynamically populating stylesheets?

[Seona Bellamy]

Hi guys,

Is this even possible? What I have is a site that gives people a chance to
set up their own information sections where they can record their own
content. I would like that an account holder can state which colours, font
sizes, font styles, etc they want for their section and have this
information gets recorded in a database. That's the easy bit, and I can do
that no problem. What I need then if that when a user navigates to a
particular section, the system pulls these values from the database and
populates the stylesheet with them so that the section displays in the
requested colours and styles.

If it makes any difference, I'm working in ColdFusion.

Of course, if this is just a pipe dream then I'll just have to sit down and
figure out another way around the problem. Id really prefer not to have to
use the selection form as a way for account holders to email me their
preferences so I can make them a new stylesheet if I can help it... :)

Cheers,

Seona.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.605 / Virus Database: 385 - Release Date: 1/03/2004

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Antony Sideropoulos]

At risk of adding to the number of messages in response to a message concerned about the number of messages on this list, may I suggest a 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] for OT and TOT and SOT messages?
 
Seems to work quite well for cf-talk (cf-community and cf_ot) at houseoffusion.com, and that way those who don't want xOT messages won't have to subscribe?
 
Antony
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/03/2004 2:53:38 pm >>>Hi Taco> [CSS]> [WSG] Web Standards> [OT] Off topic> {TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)If you're in the mood to write a [OT] or [TOT] message - please don't. Mailvolume is an issue and the list mums (Russ & Peter) have made call - keep iton topic or post else where (like CFAUSSIE where this stuff is ok).I'm not meaning to be harsh but we need to be considerate of those that areconcerned about mail volume.CheersMark--Mark Stanton Technical Director Gruden Pty Ltd Tel: 9956 6388Mob: 0410 458 201 Fax: 9956 8433 http://www.gruden.com *The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ * 

--
Maddocks
Melbourne - Tel: (61 3) 9288 0555  Fax: (61 3) 9288 0666   
Sydney - Tel: (61 2) 8223 4100  Fax: (61 2) 9221 0872
Web: http://www.maddocks.com.au 
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and confidential, intended only for use of the individual
or entity named.  If you are not the intended recipient,
any dissemination, copying or use of the information is
strictly prohibited.  If you have received this transmission
in error please delete it immediately from your system
and inform us by email on [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Taco Fleur]

Hi Mark,

I did not *mean* that people should start writing OT's, my point was that some people 
do not like to read about CSS hack and solution and whatever, so .. a never 
mind, forget it...



-Original Message-
From: Mark Stanton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 1:54 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list



Hi Taco

> [CSS]
> [WSG] Web Standards
> [OT] Off topic
> {TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)

If you're in the mood to write a [OT] or [TOT] message - please don't. Mail
volume is an issue and the list mums (Russ & Peter) have made call - keep it
on topic or post else where (like CFAUSSIE where this stuff is ok).

I'm not meaning to be harsh but we need to be considerate of those that are
concerned about mail volume.


Cheers

Mark


--
Mark Stanton 
Technical Director 
Gruden Pty Ltd 
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201 
Fax: 9956 8433 
http://www.gruden.com  

*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
* 

*
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*

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Lindsay Evans]

Taco Fleur wrote:
> PS. for those of you who are tired of to many emails in their
> email client, why not propose a new standard for the Subject of
> the emails going to the list?
>
> [CSS]
> [WSG] Web Standards
> [OT] Off topic
> {TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)

I might just point out some of the other WSG bits & pieces that many people
probably aren't aware of:
 - the resources section  (which I
believe everyone on the list is able to add to)
 - the WSG CMS list (buggered if I can remember how you join... Pete?)
 - the IRC channel  (OT stuff is
quite okay here, infact most of the time it's just me raving on about buying
bananas from Ebay or something :p)

--
 Lindsay Evans.
 Developer,
 Red Square Productions.

 [p] 8596.4000
 [f] 8596.4001
 [w] www.redsquare.com.au

*
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* 

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Sennan Lagaluga]

i like that idea.
 
 
Sennan LagalugaMock Orange Web Site 
DevelopmentU: www.mockorange.com.auP: 07 4953 
4035F: 07 4953 40301st 
Floor, 92 Victoria StreetMackay   Q   Australia 
4740

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Taco 
  Fleur 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 1:51 
  PM
  Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this 
  mailing list
  PS. for those of you who are tired of to many emails in 
  their email client, why not propose a new standard for the Subject of the 
  emails going to the list?[CSS] [WSG] Web Standards[OT] Off 
  topic{TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)That way you can auto delete 
  [CSS] [OT]{TOT]And read anything with WSGTaco 
  Fleur07 3535 5072

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Mark Stanton]

Hi Taco

> [CSS]
> [WSG] Web Standards
> [OT] Off topic
> {TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)

If you're in the mood to write a [OT] or [TOT] message - please don't. Mail
volume is an issue and the list mums (Russ & Peter) have made call - keep it
on topic or post else where (like CFAUSSIE where this stuff is ok).

I'm not meaning to be harsh but we need to be considerate of those that are
concerned about mail volume.


Cheers

Mark


--
Mark Stanton 
Technical Director 
Gruden Pty Ltd 
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201 
Fax: 9956 8433 
http://www.gruden.com  

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RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Taco Fleur]

PS. for those of you who are tired of to many emails in their email client, why not 
propose a new standard for the Subject of the emails going to the list?

[CSS] 
[WSG] Web Standards
[OT] Off topic
{TOT] Totally Of Topic ;-)

That way you can auto delete 

[CSS] 
[OT]
{TOT]

And read anything with WSG

Taco Fleur
07 3535 5072

Tell me and I will forget
Show me and I will remember
Teach me and I will learn


-Original Message-
From: Mike Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 11:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list



ok, so at the risk of getting flamed :) 

I'm writing about what the purpose of this list is. I've found it to
be a very good resource and fully support the idea of promoting the
understanding and use of web standards.

What I've been struggling with over the past 2/3 months though is the
increasing volume of posts concerned with what I'd call "how-to"
matters. Questions about getting something to work with CSS, or about
needing help with a web-related problem. These, and answers to them,
have far and away made up the bulk of posts to the list.

If the purpose of this list is to answer these questions, then that's
fine. But personally I'd probably unsubscribe as the volume is just
too much. There are excellent lists already out there:
css-discuss 
webdesign-L 

that are set up for this type of help.

I don't think we should try and duplicate what they do. Rather, I
think this list is much more valuable discussing web standards,
promoting them, commenting on them, sharing resources, educating each
other etc etc

What do others think about this?

I have emailed Russ about this, and he was of the view that the list
members of the list community should set the rules for posting, topics
of discussion etc, and also that he was happy for me to post to the
list about this and get feedback etc.

I guess that my main concern is drowning under weight of emails! I'm
on the two lists mentioned above and really don't want to be on
another duplicating what they do. But I do want to be on a list
discussing web standards.


Regards

Mike Brown


SIGNIFY :: the logic behind

ph: +64 4 803-3211  |  fax: +64 4 803-3241
mob: +64 0274 885-992 | http://www.signify.co.nz
P.O. Box 24-068, Manners St, Wellington
Level 8, CMC Building, 89 Courtenay Pl, Wellington



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Re[2]: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Mike Brown]

Mark> I realise that there are other CSS Q&A lists out there, but this list is
Mark> different in the sense that it is really the extension of a group and the
Mark> group's meetings. I would say that at the moment the membership of the list
Mark> these days far exceeds the attendance of our meetings, but the list has
Mark> evolved out of the group & group meetings.

That's probably what I didn't realise - that the list is an extension
of the group. Although I knew it orginated in Australia, I thought it
was more of a stand-alone list.

Mark> What would you think about a blog & RSS feed for news stuff (or would this
Mark> just be "another CSS blog")? Or two lists, one for news and one for
Mark> implementation issues? 

Personally I like lists in that I like the "push" of lists (things
come to me) rather than the "pull" of blogs/forums etc (I need to go
to them).

=
Just as a general comment about learning all the "hands-on" stuff,
please don't anyone get the impression that I'm against that. We all
need to learn and be shown, and I'm continually impressed by the
willingness of people on mailing lists to give their time and
expertise up for this. It's just that personally, I've learnt most
from the other two lists I've mentioned and don't, for me, see the
point of belonging to another list that replicates that. And please,
don't anyone be put off by Paul's comment on webdesign-L:

"the list-mom and most of the members seem to be arrogant elitist
techno-fascists who sneer and chide those of us further down the
learning curve"

It ain't so :)

Finally, if the concensus is that mostly people are happy with posting
about these sorts of issues (the "how-to" questions), then that's all
cool and how a list should develop. But it's good to ask questions
like mine from time to time!

Mike


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RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Taco Fleur]

I am a convert to using CSS for layout and tables for tabular data, only since I 
joined this list, and only due to the help Russ and all others have provided. If I 
never had gotten that help from this list I would have still been using tables for 
layout, and we would all be further away from a Standardized web!

Since I joined I also seen many people complain about the traffic on this mailing 
list, which compared to other mailing lists is nothing! If you would have any content 
related to CSS I wonder how many people would leave this list? If you want Standards 
you need to reach people, a lot of people, and not only those people who already know 
about standards and what not.

I'd say, if you go back to original idea behind this list you'd be closing yourself of 
to the world who needs to hear you guys!



Taco Fleur
07 3535 5072

Tell me and I will forget
Show me and I will remember
Teach me and I will learn


-Original Message-
From: Mike Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 11:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list



ok, so at the risk of getting flamed :) 

I'm writing about what the purpose of this list is. I've found it to
be a very good resource and fully support the idea of promoting the
understanding and use of web standards.

What I've been struggling with over the past 2/3 months though is the
increasing volume of posts concerned with what I'd call "how-to"
matters. Questions about getting something to work with CSS, or about
needing help with a web-related problem. These, and answers to them,
have far and away made up the bulk of posts to the list.

If the purpose of this list is to answer these questions, then that's
fine. But personally I'd probably unsubscribe as the volume is just
too much. There are excellent lists already out there:
css-discuss 
webdesign-L 

that are set up for this type of help.

I don't think we should try and duplicate what they do. Rather, I
think this list is much more valuable discussing web standards,
promoting them, commenting on them, sharing resources, educating each
other etc etc

What do others think about this?

I have emailed Russ about this, and he was of the view that the list
members of the list community should set the rules for posting, topics
of discussion etc, and also that he was happy for me to post to the
list about this and get feedback etc.

I guess that my main concern is drowning under weight of emails! I'm
on the two lists mentioned above and really don't want to be on
another duplicating what they do. But I do want to be on a list
discussing web standards.


Regards

Mike Brown


SIGNIFY :: the logic behind

ph: +64 4 803-3211  |  fax: +64 4 803-3241
mob: +64 0274 885-992 | http://www.signify.co.nz
P.O. Box 24-068, Manners St, Wellington
Level 8, CMC Building, 89 Courtenay Pl, Wellington



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Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Leo J. O'Campo]

Mike et. al.,

I'm very new to the WSG list. I have been feeling my way around to see 
what is appropriate for this list.  I'm not in AU. I'm in New York so I 
won't be attending meetings anytime soon. I joined this list because I 
truly believe that web design should follow strict but accessible 
standards based design.

As such we need to discuss the evolving nature of web standards.  But 
in the real world web standards are not an isolated topic. The debate 
cannot be conducted at the academic level without the experiences of 
what works and what doesn't.  I believe and sense that the dedicated 
people here realize that for web standards to work in the field they 
must be experienced and explored in the field.

Therefore, IMHO, I would like to see this list retain the how to and 
how not to implement a particular area of the standard.  However, human 
interface design is designed and developed by humans so I expect some 
humorous off topic post to break the ice. I think we all know why we're 
here.

Well that's what I think

Leo

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Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Justin French]

On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 02:21  PM, Paul Ross wrote:

Having said that - when we get to 1,000 members I guess something will 
have to
be done or the success of the list could implode in on itself and the 
noise
traffic become too much to handle. I would suggest that you think of 
switching
to a forum based website much like the excellent
http://forums.australianinfront.com.au/Default.aspx
As soon as lists move to forums, I stop posting, stop reading, and stop 
helping, as do many others.  Web browser-based discussion lists are 
difficult, slow and tedious at the best of times, which is the complete 
opposite of mail and news groups, which were *designed especially* for 
threading, replies and message based discussion.

Everything related to discussion happens faster and easier with a mail 
client than it does with a browser.

Browser-based discussion has one positive; that being the fact that new 
subscribers can read old posts and search for topics before posting.  
This of course can easily be overcome with web-based archives of email 
lists (which is common anyway).

---
Justin French
http://indent.com.au
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Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Jackie Reid]

In my struggles to come to terms with css, this 
list has been an absolute godsend as far as i am concerned, stranded as I am in 
sunny nq. Somehow it seems very much like a bunch of mates helping one 
another out. (That sounds a bit mushy but there you have it)
 
I haven't posted that often, however have read all 
emails avidly over a coffee and a cig during my down time. Russ's advice is 
always brilliant, along with many, many others, and lately the amount of 
moral support and help offered to members has given me a nice warm fuzzy 
feeling!!! Let's face it people unassociated with the industry just don't 
understand what we are going through here when things turn 
pearshaped.
 
I dont know what the answer is but I do know I 
would like this list to continue on more or less as it is but do understand the 
need for standards stuff too... but at present this is my best resource for 
guiding me through the maze that is css. I think I have come ahead in leaps and 
bounds as a direct result of this list. So thanks to all.
 
Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site Development1st Floor92 Victoria 
StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 4035
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Universal 
  Head 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 12:36 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [WSG] Purpose of this 
  mailing list
  It's tricky, because now that I'm getting up to speed with CSS 
  I tend to skim and skip the 'how-tos'. But then, I never would have got up to 
  speed in the first place without the 'how-to' help from this 
  list.POn 10/03/2004, at 12:55 PM, Mark Stanton 
  wrote:
  I've got a graphic artist in here who has similar complaints to 
yours - hefinds Russ's emails with lists of links very interesting 
because they givehim a good idea of issues that he has to design around 
and techniques thatwe can be employing. But he doesn't code CSS all day 
so he doesn't reallyget much from the "how do I get this float working" 
posts.Universal 
  Head Design 
  That Works.7/43 Bridge Rd StanmoreNSW 2048 AustraliaT (+612) 
  9517 1466F (+612) 9565 4747E [EMAIL PROTECTED]W 
  www.universalhead.com

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Hugh Todd]

When I joined this list I already knew that I wanted to pursue the web 
standards approach. But I was at the hair-pulling stage and needing 
help. I've seen many people join since who are as I was then (not so 
long ago either, and am sure to be again).

Two principles have been on my mind.

1) I did not want to bother the list until I had made an exhaustive 
search of the websites detailing difficulties with various browsers and 
how to solve them. In other words, I did not think it fair that I 
should ask others to solve issues without my having worked very hard to 
solve them myself.

2) I did not want simply to be a 'taker', so if I had learnt anything, 
and had the time to do it, I wanted to be able to give back to others 
who may be encountering the same problems.

I have to confess I have found the first principle easier to observe 
than the second, and I am full of admiration for members of the list 
who continue to help fellow list members with their code. I think this 
is what keeps the list 'grounded', and makes us a feel welcome to be 
here.

I once heard a psychologist describe relationships in terms of fleas 
and dogs. Some people are fleas who suck on their 'dog' partners. In 
some relationships, both partners are fleas.

To all the 'dogs' on this list, a big 'thank you'!

-Hugh Todd

And I think this needs to be a place where we both learn to understand 
the big picture and wrestle with the nitty gritty.

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RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Paul Ross]

The trouble with this list - and the people on it - is that you are all too
helpful and friendly. I am also a member of the Webesign-L.com list and would
never post there because the list-mom and most of the members seem to be
arrogant elitist techno-fascists who sneer and chide those of us further down
the learning curve. 

Learning to build to web standards does require a steep learning curve and this
list is an excellent resource and helping hand when you need it.

Having said that - when we get to 1,000 members I guess something will have to
be done or the success of the list could implode in on itself and the noise
traffic become too much to handle. I would suggest that you think of switching
to a forum based website much like the excellent
http://forums.australianinfront.com.au/Default.aspx

Regards
PAUL ROSS
SkyRocket Design Co
http://www.skyrocket.com.au

-
This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/
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FW: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[ByteDreams]

I recently joined, about uh,... Yesterday.
Couldn't have picked a better time to bring up this subject. I'm neither a
beginner, nor an expert, and I did join it to learn about web standards,
and appreciate it when I can learn something else, something more.  So I
guess I'll be one of those people that contribute little, while I catch up
to the rest of you.

..from the new kid on the block,
ByteDreams

-Original Message-
From: Mark Stanton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 8:55 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list



Hi Mike

The purpose of this list is two fold: Q&A stuff and general web standards
discussion/news updates. We have tried to create a culture on this list
that is very topic based rather than creating a really chatty community
with lots of OT posts about what people got up to on the weekend.

So basically we want this list to contain anything and everything as long
as its on topic.

I realise that there are other CSS Q&A lists out there, but this list is
different in the sense that it is really the extension of a group and the
group's meetings. I would say that at the moment the membership of the
list these days far exceeds the attendance of our meetings, but the list
has evolved out of the group & group meetings.

People who can't make it to meetings are always welcomed & encouraged to
organise meetings in their areas.

We are very aware of list volume issues and understand that this is a
touchy subject for some, but at the same time getting too restrictive will
alienate other list members.

I've got a graphic artist in here who has similar complaints to yours - he
finds Russ's emails with lists of links very interesting because they give
him a good idea of issues that he has to design around and techniques that
we can be employing. But he doesn't code CSS all day so he doesn't really
get much from the "how do I get this float working" posts.

What would you think about a blog & RSS feed for news stuff (or would this
just be "another CSS blog")? Or two lists, one for news and one for
implementation issues?

Anyway its an open issue at the moment - we're still trying to find the
right mix.


Cheers

Mark


--
Mark Stanton
Technical Director
Gruden Pty Ltd
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201
Fax: 9956 8433
http://www.gruden.com

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RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[James Gollan]

I find that whilst there would appear to be a clear separation between a
discussion of web standards and how-to's, quite often a look at
someone's source code sparks off an interesting and valuable debate
about the web standards issues involved. The overlap would seem to add
richness to the list, rather than just volume.

There also seems to be a tendency to email off-list when offering
specific or extensive one-on-one help (which could perhaps be
encouraged)?

One of the downsides of a good list is that it becomes a popular list!!!

Having said this I am not necessarily against the idea of two lists -
I'd join both!

James
-Original Message-
From: Mark Stanton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 12:55 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list


Hi Mike

The purpose of this list is two fold: Q&A stuff and general web
standards
discussion/news updates. We have tried to create a culture on this list
that
is very topic based rather than creating a really chatty community with
lots
of OT posts about what people got up to on the weekend.

So basically we want this list to contain anything and everything as
long as
its on topic.

I realise that there are other CSS Q&A lists out there, but this list is
different in the sense that it is really the extension of a group and
the
group's meetings. I would say that at the moment the membership of the
list
these days far exceeds the attendance of our meetings, but the list has
evolved out of the group & group meetings. 

People who can't make it to meetings are always welcomed & encouraged to
organise meetings in their areas.

We are very aware of list volume issues and understand that this is a
touchy
subject for some, but at the same time getting too restrictive will
alienate
other list members. 

I've got a graphic artist in here who has similar complaints to yours -
he
finds Russ's emails with lists of links very interesting because they
give
him a good idea of issues that he has to design around and techniques
that
we can be employing. But he doesn't code CSS all day so he doesn't
really
get much from the "how do I get this float working" posts.

What would you think about a blog & RSS feed for news stuff (or would
this
just be "another CSS blog")? Or two lists, one for news and one for
implementation issues? 

Anyway its an open issue at the moment - we're still trying to find the
right mix.


Cheers

Mark


--
Mark Stanton 
Technical Director 
Gruden Pty Ltd 
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201 
Fax: 9956 8433 
http://www.gruden.com  

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Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Universal Head]

It's tricky, because now that I'm getting up to speed with CSS I tend to skim and skip the 'how-tos'. But then, I never would have got up to speed in the first place without the 'how-to' help from this list.

P


On 10/03/2004, at 12:55 PM, Mark Stanton wrote:

I've got a graphic artist in here who has similar complaints to yours - he
finds Russ's emails with lists of links very interesting because they give
him a good idea of issues that he has to design around and techniques that
we can be employing. But he doesn't code CSS all day so he doesn't really
get much from the "how do I get this float working" posts.


Universal Head 
Design That Works.

7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore
NSW 2048 Australia
T	(+612) 9517 1466
F	(+612) 9565 4747
E	[EMAIL PROTECTED]
W	www.universalhead.com

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Nick Lo]

Hi Mike,

I understand what you're getting at however I think you need to invert 
the way you're looking at it and see the increasing volume of quality 
posts as well.

Personally, I think this is a great list and yes there are times when I 
think this or that post could have held off posting. However, I've 
equally enjoyed seeing the struggles others are going through and the 
help they are given. In the end IMPLEMENTATION is what this is all 
about, I've no interest in joining a list for the academic discussion 
of standards such as I'd expect say a W3C list to be. I'm on this list 
for the "gimme something I can use" basis and on that score there is 
almost too much. I think the phrase "can't make an omelette without 
cracking eggs" applies here, realistically there has to be some less on 
topic posts as part of any community.

If as you say your real concern is email volume then I think you need 
to ask if that's the right motivation. I don't see any issue with 
simply filtering WSG mail into a mailbox and scanning it picking out 
anything interesting. Besides I don't see this list as high volume, for 
example, I found the flashcoders list overwhelming even in digest form!

I think it's good you pointed out those alternative lists and I do 
agree that if all someone is doing is posting on the list once a month 
to ask how to position this or that then that's not really discussing 
web standards. On the other hand if we can watch them solve this then 
that issue and the discussions/decisions surrounding that, then we see 
the final result then that is relevant. I just think realistically you 
cannot expect that from all posts.

If it were a list on house building standards how off topic would a 
discussion about bricklaying be? In the end there are guidelines in 
place and it's a simple matter of re-routing when necessary. So 
possibly what you're really asking for is a firmer enforcement of the 
list guidelines.

Anyway, no flames here, just my thoughts,

Nick


ok, so at the risk of getting flamed :) 



I'm writing about what the purpose of this list is. I've found it to
be a very good resource and fully support the idea of promoting the
understanding and use of web standards.
What I've been struggling with over the past 2/3 months though is the
increasing volume of posts concerned with what I'd call "how-to"
matters. Questions about getting something to work with CSS, or about
needing help with a web-related problem. These, and answers to them,
have far and away made up the bulk of posts to the list.
If the purpose of this list is to answer these questions, then that's
fine. But personally I'd probably unsubscribe as the volume is just
too much. There are excellent lists already out there:
css-discuss 
webdesign-L 
that are set up for this type of help.

I don't think we should try and duplicate what they do. Rather, I
think this list is much more valuable discussing web standards,
promoting them, commenting on them, sharing resources, educating each
other etc etc
What do others think about this?

I have emailed Russ about this, and he was of the view that the list
members of the list community should set the rules for posting, topics
of discussion etc, and also that he was happy for me to post to the
list about this and get feedback etc.
I guess that my main concern is drowning under weight of emails! I'm
on the two lists mentioned above and really don't want to be on
another duplicating what they do. But I do want to be on a list
discussing web standards.
*
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* 

RE: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Mark Stanton]

Hi Mike

The purpose of this list is two fold: Q&A stuff and general web standards
discussion/news updates. We have tried to create a culture on this list that
is very topic based rather than creating a really chatty community with lots
of OT posts about what people got up to on the weekend.

So basically we want this list to contain anything and everything as long as
its on topic.

I realise that there are other CSS Q&A lists out there, but this list is
different in the sense that it is really the extension of a group and the
group's meetings. I would say that at the moment the membership of the list
these days far exceeds the attendance of our meetings, but the list has
evolved out of the group & group meetings. 

People who can't make it to meetings are always welcomed & encouraged to
organise meetings in their areas.

We are very aware of list volume issues and understand that this is a touchy
subject for some, but at the same time getting too restrictive will alienate
other list members. 

I've got a graphic artist in here who has similar complaints to yours - he
finds Russ's emails with lists of links very interesting because they give
him a good idea of issues that he has to design around and techniques that
we can be employing. But he doesn't code CSS all day so he doesn't really
get much from the "how do I get this float working" posts.

What would you think about a blog & RSS feed for news stuff (or would this
just be "another CSS blog")? Or two lists, one for news and one for
implementation issues? 

Anyway its an open issue at the moment - we're still trying to find the
right mix.


Cheers

Mark


--
Mark Stanton 
Technical Director 
Gruden Pty Ltd 
Tel: 9956 6388
Mob: 0410 458 201 
Fax: 9956 8433 
http://www.gruden.com  

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* 

Re: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Neerav]

I would lean towards mikes assertion that:

> "Rather, I think this list is much more valuable discussing web
> standards, promoting them, commenting on them, sharing resources,
> educating each other etc etc"
discussing "generic" problems like how to deal with CSS implementation 
in browser X on OS Y would be OK as well, but site/page specific stuff 
should be forwarded to lists like:

> css-discuss 
> webdesign-L 
--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
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[WSG] Purpose of this mailing list

[Mike Brown]

ok, so at the risk of getting flamed :) 

I'm writing about what the purpose of this list is. I've found it to
be a very good resource and fully support the idea of promoting the
understanding and use of web standards.

What I've been struggling with over the past 2/3 months though is the
increasing volume of posts concerned with what I'd call "how-to"
matters. Questions about getting something to work with CSS, or about
needing help with a web-related problem. These, and answers to them,
have far and away made up the bulk of posts to the list.

If the purpose of this list is to answer these questions, then that's
fine. But personally I'd probably unsubscribe as the volume is just
too much. There are excellent lists already out there:
css-discuss 
webdesign-L 

that are set up for this type of help.

I don't think we should try and duplicate what they do. Rather, I
think this list is much more valuable discussing web standards,
promoting them, commenting on them, sharing resources, educating each
other etc etc

What do others think about this?

I have emailed Russ about this, and he was of the view that the list
members of the list community should set the rules for posting, topics
of discussion etc, and also that he was happy for me to post to the
list about this and get feedback etc.

I guess that my main concern is drowning under weight of emails! I'm
on the two lists mentioned above and really don't want to be on
another duplicating what they do. But I do want to be on a list
discussing web standards.


Regards

Mike Brown


SIGNIFY :: the logic behind

ph: +64 4 803-3211  |  fax: +64 4 803-3241
mob: +64 0274 885-992 | http://www.signify.co.nz
P.O. Box 24-068, Manners St, Wellington
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[WSG] Cascading background colors

[Universal Head]

Damn, just answered my own question.

I had this:

table td {
background-color: #fff;	
}

table.title {
background-color: #81a1d6;
}


But it needed to be this:

table td {
background-color: #fff;	
}

table.title td {
background-color: #81a1d6;
}

Doh!
Peter

Universal Head 
Design That Works.

7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore
NSW 2048 Australia
T	(+612) 9517 1466
F	(+612) 9565 4747
E	[EMAIL PROTECTED]
W	www.universalhead.com

[WSG] Cascading background colors

[Universal Head]

Hi
I seem to have problems with background colours replacing earlier background colours. For example styling a td white and then later on a td.classname blue. The subsequent colour is ignored.

Is this a problem anyone else has come across?
Thanks
Peter

Universal Head 
Design That Works.

7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore
NSW 2048 Australia
T	(+612) 9517 1466
F	(+612) 9565 4747
E	[EMAIL PROTECTED]
W	www.universalhead.com

Re: [WSG] best ways to "sell" web standards

[Neerav]

thanks that presentation is perfect! After being on the list for only a 
few weeks Russ strikes me as being the resident WSG guru, as his 
presentations and tips are often referred to.

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Amit Karmakar wrote:

Try this link Neerav. This is from Russ' recent presentation.
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/benefits/
Regards,
Amit Karmakar
www.karmakars.com
-Original Message-
From: Neerav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 10:19 AM
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] best ways to "sell" web standards

When preparing a proposal for a potential client or trying to convince your
management, what are the tried and true methods used by WSG members to
convince them that coding to web standards is a plus for their organisation?
I can think of a few to start with:

* Lower data transfer volumes as pages coded with DIV and SPAN tags + CSS
for presentation are usually smaller in size and the CSS will be cached
* Coding to standards lowers testing time in the umpteen available browsers
(in my experience) as pages coded to standards tend to work more out "out of
the box" than older style table layout and font tag coded pages
--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
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Re: [WSG] best ways to "sell" web standards

[Nate Cook]

I'd say a big piece for me is future-compatibility -- when I've had 
clients that have been concerned about backward-compatibility, this is 
a strong argument to help them see that coding nine ways to Tuesday to 
support old, broken browsers will probably cost them more in the long 
run because their nonstandard site & code will need to be fixed up to 
cater to every special new browser that comes out.

The alternative to standards is hacking it together and crossing your 
fingers whenever you download a new release.

Nate

.: Nate Cook : 773 405 4073 : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : www.natecook.com :.

On Mar 9, 2004, at 5:33 PM, Amit Karmakar wrote:

Try this link Neerav. This is from Russ' recent presentation.
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/benefits/
Regards,
Amit Karmakar
www.karmakars.com
-Original Message-
From: Neerav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 10:19 AM
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] best ways to "sell" web standards
When preparing a proposal for a potential client or trying to convince 
your
management, what are the tried and true methods used by WSG members to
convince them that coding to web standards is a plus for their 
organisation?

I can think of a few to start with:

* Lower data transfer volumes as pages coded with DIV and SPAN tags + 
CSS
for presentation are usually smaller in size and the CSS will be cached

* Coding to standards lowers testing time in the umpteen available 
browsers
(in my experience) as pages coded to standards tend to work more out 
"out of
the box" than older style table layout and font tag coded pages

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
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Re: [WSG] best ways to "sell" web standards

[russ weakley]

There are heaps of articles on this, as well as answers on this list.
Try this:
http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg%40webstandardsgroup.org/msg01324.html

Thanks
Russ

> 
> When preparing a proposal for a potential client or trying to convince
> your management, what are the tried and true methods used by WSG members
> to convince them that coding to web standards is a plus for their
> organisation?
> 
> I can think of a few to start with:
> 
> * Lower data transfer volumes as pages coded with DIV and SPAN tags +
> CSS for presentation are usually smaller in size and the CSS will be cached
> 
> * Coding to standards lowers testing time in the umpteen available
> browsers (in my experience) as pages coded to standards tend to work
> more out "out of the box" than older style table layout and font tag
> coded pages

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RE: [WSG] best ways to "sell" web standards

[Amit Karmakar]

Try this link Neerav. This is from Russ' recent presentation.
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/benefits/


Regards,
Amit Karmakar
www.karmakars.com

-Original Message-
From: Neerav [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, 10 March 2004 10:19 AM
To: WSG
Subject: [WSG] best ways to "sell" web standards


When preparing a proposal for a potential client or trying to convince your
management, what are the tried and true methods used by WSG members to
convince them that coding to web standards is a plus for their organisation?

I can think of a few to start with:

* Lower data transfer volumes as pages coded with DIV and SPAN tags + CSS
for presentation are usually smaller in size and the CSS will be cached

* Coding to standards lowers testing time in the umpteen available browsers
(in my experience) as pages coded to standards tend to work more out "out of
the box" than older style table layout and font tag coded pages

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
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Re: [WSG] best ways to "sell" web standards

[Tim Lucas]

Have a look at the thread posted last month by the f2network team.

-- tim

Neerav spoke the following wise words on 10/03/2004 10:19 AM EST:
When preparing a proposal for a potential client or trying to convince 
your management, what are the tried and true methods used by WSG members 
to convince them that coding to web standards is a plus for their 
organisation?

I can think of a few to start with:

* Lower data transfer volumes as pages coded with DIV and SPAN tags + 
CSS for presentation are usually smaller in size and the CSS will be cached

* Coding to standards lowers testing time in the umpteen available 
browsers (in my experience) as pages coded to standards tend to work 
more out "out of the box" than older style table layout and font tag 
coded pages
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* 

[WSG] best ways to "sell" web standards

[Neerav]

When preparing a proposal for a potential client or trying to convince 
your management, what are the tried and true methods used by WSG members 
to convince them that coding to web standards is a plus for their 
organisation?

I can think of a few to start with:

* Lower data transfer volumes as pages coded with DIV and SPAN tags + 
CSS for presentation are usually smaller in size and the CSS will be cached

* Coding to standards lowers testing time in the umpteen available 
browsers (in my experience) as pages coded to standards tend to work 
more out "out of the box" than older style table layout and font tag 
coded pages

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
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* 

[WSG] Opera 7 & clearing floats

[James Ellis]

Hi all

Have a minor problem with Opera 7 clearing floated items. The CSS2 
recommendation states that "clear" indicates which side of the element's 
box may *not* be adjacent to an earlier floating box (9.5.2).
Opera, it seems is taking this to an extreme and clearing content below 
floats that have occurred much earlier in the document flow.  Both Moz 
and IE don't do this  - they clear only floated items that are 
immediately before the cleared box. Is Opera doing the right thing or 
the wrong thing, as the rec seems open to interpretation.

A classic example of this is a floated left #nav with adjacent (non 
floated) #content. In this adjacent #content is another left floated 
#box above a clearing box (#nonfloatedcontent). With Opera 7, 
#nonfloatedcontent clears #nav instead of just clearing #box.  This 
makes some problems when #nav is very long and #nonfloatedcontent 
disappears down the page, under and just to the right of #nav.

Does this make sense? :D

Cheers
James
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RE: [WSG] Lists & weird requirement

[P.H.Lauke]

Frank,
 
your main problem from what I can see is that, as you're floating everything,
you need to use a lot of "clear", but as you're still removing things from the
normal flow, you're getting issues with having the container elements, which have
the background colours applied, to show through properly...as there's nothing
in them anymore, with all that floating.
 
Assuming you want to go with the definition list idea, here's something I cooked
up in a few minutes. It might not be perfect, but seems to work ok.
 

 
and the styles at
 

 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk   
 

-Original Message- 
From: Frank [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tue 09/03/2004 15:55 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Cc: 
Subject: [WSG] Lists & weird  requirement




Hey all,

I've been running into a few weird problems with a layout I'm working on.
I'm retrieving results from a database, and displaying each record in a
, with each item in that record, displayed in an unordered-list.

The problem I'm having is when trying to alternate row-colours.  For some
reason, I can't seem to get the row colours working.  It just won't work.
I'm not sure if there's an issue with the way my style sheet is being laid
out, or if I'm just not doing something properly.

I've also noticed that in order to get all the items in the record to
display properly in the DIV, I have to add  just before
closing the DIV, otherwise, the content overlaps the bottom border of the
DIV.

Here are the screenshots of the problem I'm having:

a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/with_br.JPG (Alternating rows should
be visible, but they're not)

b) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/without_br.JPG

Here's a link to the stylesheet:
a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/styles.css


Any help would be greatly appreciated... Thank you!


Frank Manno
Design Interactive Group
www.di-group.net
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…çb±Ë²*'–+-~Šá¶Úÿ›²ÖuªÝ
è+ƒ

Re: [WSG] Lists & weird requirement

[Leo J. O'Campo]

Frank

Try setting a height attribute so the background won't shrink for lack 
of content

Leo

On Tuesday, March 9, 2004, at 10:55  AM, Frank wrote:

Hey all,

I've been running into a few weird problems with a layout I'm working 
on.
I'm retrieving results from a database, and displaying each record in a
, with each item in that record, displayed in an unordered-list.

The problem I'm having is when trying to alternate row-colours.  For 
some
reason, I can't seem to get the row colours working.  It just won't 
work.
I'm not sure if there's an issue with the way my style sheet is being 
laid
out, or if I'm just not doing something properly.

I've also noticed that in order to get all the items in the record to
display properly in the DIV, I have to add  just 
before
closing the DIV, otherwise, the content overlaps the bottom border of 
the
DIV.

Here are the screenshots of the problem I'm having:

a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/with_br.JPG (Alternating rows 
should
be visible, but they're not)

b) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/without_br.JPG

Here's a link to the stylesheet:
a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/styles.css
Any help would be greatly appreciated... Thank you!

Frank Manno
Design Interactive Group
www.di-group.net
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Re: [WSG] Lists & weird requirement

[russ weakley]

Frank,

I completely agree with Tonico.

Many people getting into web standards assume that it is based on removing
tables. This is incorrect. There are times and places for tables. However,
one of the main aims of web standards is to make your content more
accessible to devices and users. This means choosing the most appropriate
html elements for your content - not just for modern browsers but for all
devices.

In pure terms, using tables for positioning content on the page, or layout
is semantically incorrect as it is using the table element for something it
was not intended.

However, tables are designed for displaying tabular data. Even more
important, tables have a range of accessibility features that allow you to
make this tabular data accessible to a wide range of users. The most common
ones are:
"summary"
"caption"
"thead" and "tbody"
"id" and "headers"

There is also scope="col" and scope="row", but these are as well supported
by modern browsers (my opinion only).
 
The article I wrote on definition lists (linked to a few posts back)
includes an example of a definition list styled to look like a table. This
was simply to show how a simple definition list could be styled to look
radically different to the default list style. It was NOT trying to
encourage people to replace tabular data with definition lists.

So, how do you choose when to use a list, a definition list or a table?
Experience helps, but it also comes down to thinking through the purpose of
your content before you mark it up.

You should ask yourself questions like: "If I mark up this content, how will
this work in browsers without style sheets, text-based browsers, screen
readers? How will it look to Google? What is the best way I can display this
particular section of content so blind users can access it?"

If the content involves simple couplets of information, then a definition
list may be appropriate. If the content requires a series of columns related
to headings or is obviously tabular data, then tables are much more
appropriate.

A final note on the article that Tonico mentions:
(http://www.ferg.org/section508/accessible_tables.html#contents_item_5) is

It is an excellent read, but I would skip the section on "Visible
formatting". Some of the methods mentioned are semantically incorrect (use
additional table cells for visually indenting content) and the styling
examples could be written in much simpler and more powerful ways using
descendant selectors.

Russ


> 
> Frank wrote:
>> Re: tables... I wasn't sure if it was wise to use them here... But as you
>> said, tables were meant for tabular data.  Although I would still prefer
>> to use a table-less layout (if it's still considered a wise choice).
> 
> You would greatly improve accessibilty if you use appropriate table
> markup for tabular data.
> 
> See  for details.
> 
> Tonico

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Re: [WSG] Lists & weird requirement

[Tonico Strasser]

Frank wrote:
Re: tables... I wasn't sure if it was wise to use them here... But as you
said, tables were meant for tabular data.  Although I would still prefer
to use a table-less layout (if it's still considered a wise choice).
You would greatly improve accessibilty if you use appropriate table 
markup for tabular data.

See  for details.

Tonico

--
Tonico Strasser ?:-)
http://Tonico.FreeZope.org
Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de
Check out http://www.WebProducer.at
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Re: [WSG] Lists & weird requirement

[Anders Ebdrup]

Hey Frank

I'm not quite sure what you want, but I think these changes will help you:

 .item ul li.odd span{
  background-color: red;
 }
 
 .item ul li.even span{
  background-color: blue;
 }

instead of 

 .item ul li.odd{
  background-color: red;
 }
 
 .item ul li.even{
  background-color: blue;
 }

With regards
Anders Ebdrup

SmartPage Webdesign
www.smartpage.dk


- Original Message - 
From: "Frank" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2004 6:09 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] Lists & weird  requirement


> 
> Hey Patrick,
> 
> My fault... I completely forgot to point to it... Sorry about that.
> 
> http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/admin/notify.php
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> 
> 
> Frank Manno
> Design Interactive Group
> www.di-group.net
> >
> > It would actually be quite helpful if you could point us
> > to the html...
> >
> > P
> > 
> > Patrick H. Lauke
> > Webmaster / University of Salford
> > http://www.salford.ac.uk
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Frank [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Sent: 09 March 2004 15:55
> >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Subject: [WSG] Lists & weird  requirement
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Hey all,
> >>
> >> I've been running into a few weird problems with a layout I'm
> >> working on.
> >> I'm retrieving results from a database, and displaying each
> >> record in a
> >> , with each item in that record, displayed in an unordered-list.
> >>
> >> The problem I'm having is when trying to alternate
> >> row-colours.  For some
> >> reason, I can't seem to get the row colours working.  It just
> >> won't work.
> >> I'm not sure if there's an issue with the way my style sheet
> >> is being laid
> >> out, or if I'm just not doing something properly.
> >>
> >> I've also noticed that in order to get all the items in the record to
> >> display properly in the DIV, I have to add 
> >> just before
> >> closing the DIV, otherwise, the content overlaps the bottom
> >> border of the
> >> DIV.
> >>
> >> Here are the screenshots of the problem I'm having:
> >>
> >> a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/with_br.JPG (Alternating
> >> rows should
> >> be visible, but they're not)
> >>
> >> b) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/without_br.JPG
> >>
> >> Here's a link to the stylesheet:
> >> a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/styles.css
> >>
> >>
> >> Any help would be greatly appreciated... Thank you!
> >> 
> >>
> >> Frank Manno
> >> Design Interactive Group
> >> www.di-group.net
> >> *
> >> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> >> *
> >>
> >>
> > *
> > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> > *
> >
> >
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> * 
> 

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Re: [WSG] Lists & weird requirement

[George S. Williams]

On Tue, 2004-03-09 at 12:12, Frank wrote:
> 

> As for using a defition list... I'll look into that.  Do you have any
> resources off hand that would give me a better idea of how to go about
> using that method?
> 
http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/definition/index.cfm

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Re: [WSG] Lists & weird requirement

[Frank]

Hi Michael,

> give the last item in the div a "clear: both;" - or add a div instead of
> the break tag (avoiding presentational markup)

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by giving the last item in the
div the "clear:both" property... Does that mean, I'd have to create a
class just for the last element in the div?

As for using a defition list... I'll look into that.  Do you have any
resources off hand that would give me a better idea of how to go about
using that method?

> and you should actually use tables or definition lists here, because
> thats what these things were made for.

Re: tables... I wasn't sure if it was wise to use them here... But as you
said, tables were meant for tabular data.  Although I would still prefer
to use a table-less layout (if it's still considered a wise choice).


Thanks,



Frank Manno
Design Interactive Group
www.di-group.net
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RE: [WSG] Lists & weird requirement

[Frank]

Hey Patrick,

My fault... I completely forgot to point to it... Sorry about that.

http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/admin/notify.php


Thanks,



Frank Manno
Design Interactive Group
www.di-group.net
>
> It would actually be quite helpful if you could point us
> to the html...
>
> P
> 
> Patrick H. Lauke
> Webmaster / University of Salford
> http://www.salford.ac.uk
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Frank [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Sent: 09 March 2004 15:55
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject: [WSG] Lists & weird  requirement
>>
>>
>>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> I've been running into a few weird problems with a layout I'm
>> working on.
>> I'm retrieving results from a database, and displaying each
>> record in a
>> , with each item in that record, displayed in an unordered-list.
>>
>> The problem I'm having is when trying to alternate
>> row-colours.  For some
>> reason, I can't seem to get the row colours working.  It just
>> won't work.
>> I'm not sure if there's an issue with the way my style sheet
>> is being laid
>> out, or if I'm just not doing something properly.
>>
>> I've also noticed that in order to get all the items in the record to
>> display properly in the DIV, I have to add 
>> just before
>> closing the DIV, otherwise, the content overlaps the bottom
>> border of the
>> DIV.
>>
>> Here are the screenshots of the problem I'm having:
>>
>> a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/with_br.JPG (Alternating
>> rows should
>> be visible, but they're not)
>>
>> b) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/without_br.JPG
>>
>> Here's a link to the stylesheet:
>> a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/styles.css
>>
>>
>> Any help would be greatly appreciated... Thank you!
>> 
>>
>> Frank Manno
>> Design Interactive Group
>> www.di-group.net
>> *
>> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>> *
>>
>>
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> *
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Lists & weird requirement

[Michael Zeltner]

Frank wrote:
I've also noticed that in order to get all the items in the record to
display properly in the DIV, I have to add  just before
closing the DIV, otherwise, the content overlaps the bottom border of the
DIV.
give the last item in the div a "clear: both;" - or add a div instead of 
the break tag (avoiding presentational markup)

and you should actually use tables or definition lists here, because 
thats what these things were made for.

regards, michael
--
 jiin
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RE: [WSG] Lists & weird requirement

[P.H.Lauke]

It would actually be quite helpful if you could point us
to the html...

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk

> -Original Message-
> From: Frank [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 09 March 2004 15:55
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [WSG] Lists & weird  requirement
> 
> 
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> I've been running into a few weird problems with a layout I'm 
> working on. 
> I'm retrieving results from a database, and displaying each 
> record in a
> , with each item in that record, displayed in an unordered-list.
> 
> The problem I'm having is when trying to alternate 
> row-colours.  For some
> reason, I can't seem to get the row colours working.  It just 
> won't work. 
> I'm not sure if there's an issue with the way my style sheet 
> is being laid
> out, or if I'm just not doing something properly.
> 
> I've also noticed that in order to get all the items in the record to
> display properly in the DIV, I have to add  
> just before
> closing the DIV, otherwise, the content overlaps the bottom 
> border of the
> DIV.
> 
> Here are the screenshots of the problem I'm having:
> 
> a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/with_br.JPG (Alternating 
> rows should
> be visible, but they're not)
> 
> b) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/without_br.JPG
> 
> Here's a link to the stylesheet:
> a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/styles.css
> 
> 
> Any help would be greatly appreciated... Thank you!
> 
> 
> Frank Manno
> Design Interactive Group
> www.di-group.net
> *
> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> * 
> 
> 
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[WSG] Lists & weird requirement

[Frank]

Hey all,

I've been running into a few weird problems with a layout I'm working on. 
I'm retrieving results from a database, and displaying each record in a
, with each item in that record, displayed in an unordered-list.

The problem I'm having is when trying to alternate row-colours.  For some
reason, I can't seem to get the row colours working.  It just won't work. 
I'm not sure if there's an issue with the way my style sheet is being laid
out, or if I'm just not doing something properly.

I've also noticed that in order to get all the items in the record to
display properly in the DIV, I have to add  just before
closing the DIV, otherwise, the content overlaps the bottom border of the
DIV.

Here are the screenshots of the problem I'm having:

a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/with_br.JPG (Alternating rows should
be visible, but they're not)

b) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/without_br.JPG

Here's a link to the stylesheet:
a) http://c9.homelinux.com/iiiglobal/styles.css


Any help would be greatly appreciated... Thank you!


Frank Manno
Design Interactive Group
www.di-group.net
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Re: [WSG] turning back to the dark side...

[Robert Moser]

Paul Ross wrote:
If anyone wants to see the finished version check out:
http://www.books24x7.net.au - just don't view source on the New Releases page
Why is there a 

Re: [WSG] Accessibility checkers for Mac (OS X)

[Pete Prodoehl]

Paul Ross wrote:
Hello Ian,

You can download the free web developers toolbar extension for Mozilla and
Firefox browsers which has a handy quick link to the Bobby WCAG 1.0 and Bobby
508 accessibility checker. You can get it here:
http://www.chrispederick.com/work/firefox/webdeveloper/ 

The PC version is better still as it also includes a link to Cynthia Says.

And Checky is better still:

  http://checky.mozdev.org/

  ;)

Pete

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Re: [WSG] Accessibility checkers for Mac (OS X)

[Pete Prodoehl]

Paul Ross wrote:
Hello Ian,

You can download the free web developers toolbar extension for Mozilla and
Firefox browsers which has a handy quick link to the Bobby WCAG 1.0 and Bobby
508 accessibility checker. You can get it here:
http://www.chrispederick.com/work/firefox/webdeveloper/ 

The PC version is better still as it also includes a link to Cynthia Says.

Regards
PAUL ROSS
SkyRocket Design Co
http://www.skyrocket.com.au
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[WSG] Nested list tab navigation (was: Semantic vs Accessibile markup)

[Tonico Strasser]

> Last night I've coded such a menu:
>   
>
> It works fine, except in IE/Mac. I have posted the issue to css-d but
> haven't received any reply so far.
>
> I need to support IE/Mac, so what would you recommend me to do?
I have fixed it with an extra floated  around the .
  
Should work in this browsers now:
  * IE/Win 5+
  * IE/Mac 5.17+
  * Safari 1+
  * Konqueror 3.1+
  * Mozilla 0.9.6+ and derivates
  * Opera 6+
Some articles about accessibility, markup and navigation:

Overused Lists?
  
Semantic structure
  
Building Accessible Websites: 08. Navigation
  
Tonico

--
Tonico Strasser ?:-)
http://Tonico.FreeZope.org
Contact_Tonico at Yahoo dot de
Check out http://www.WebProducer.at
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Re: [WSG] Alexa - Bot

[Chris Stratford]

Sorry People!

Just a follow up!

Since i realised this tool would be useful for a number of things, I
made a nice UI.

If you want to get the raw data, simply goto:

http://www.neester.com/alexa/alexa.php?site=neester.com&display=1

otherwise:

http://www.neester.com/alexa/alexa.php?site=neester.com

willl display a nice formatted readable webpage...



Let me know what you all think!

(Note: Some websites dont work, like YAHOO.COM - I think its because
its in the top #1 site)
Anything ranked really high wont load properly...
But if your site is that high up - you dont need this little service...
:)

So yeah - enjoy!
Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Http://www.neester.com


Chris Stratford wrote:

  
  
Hey WSG,
  
A little OT.
But since we are all web devs i thought this would interest a lot of
you.
  
I have made a script up, where you can log your Alexa ranking, speed,
up/down, rank change
  
I have done all the major parsing, and it outputs a nicely formatted
page for you to parse with your own script...
  
  http://www.neester.com/alexa/alexa.php?site=neester.com
  
Just change neester.com to whatever website you want!
  
---
  
It outputs the data in this format: (seperated by a new line)
  







  
It looks like this in your webbrowser:
  neester.com 1,516,224 1 115,276 10 Not available 1078831110
  
But thats because new lines dont display in HTML...
  
So you can setup your own parsing - You can log it to a database if you
parse my script & save to dbase...
Please use it in moderation, its on my personal server...
I recommend using crontab and setting it up to run once a week or once
a fortnight...
  
Hope you enjoy it!
:)
  
Cheers!
  
BTW Any suggestions for it?
  
[Sorry for the OT post]
  
  -- 
Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Http://www.neester.com
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[WSG] Alexa - Bot

[Chris Stratford]

Hey WSG,

A little OT.
But since we are all web devs i thought this would interest a lot of
you.

I have made a script up, where you can log your Alexa ranking, speed,
up/down, rank change

I have done all the major parsing, and it outputs a nicely formatted
page for you to parse with your own script...

http://www.neester.com/alexa/alexa.php?site=neester.com

Just change neester.com to whatever website you want!

---

It outputs the data in this format: (seperated by a new line)









It looks like this in your webbrowser:
neester.com 1,516,224 1 115,276 10 Not available 1078831110

But thats because new lines dont display in HTML...

So you can setup your own parsing - You can log it to a database if you
parse my script & save to dbase...
Please use it in moderation, its on my personal server...
I recommend using crontab and setting it up to run once a week or once
a fortnight...

Hope you enjoy it!
:)

Cheers!

BTW Any suggestions for it?

[Sorry for the OT post]

-- 
Chris Stratford
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Http://www.neester.com


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RE: [WSG] Whats going on

[P.H.Lauke]

Stab 
in the dark time: could it be that for some reason today the content of that 
site was not valid xhtml, and some browsers started behaving funny because of 
that and not applying styles the way they should ? Or are you calling multiple 
stylesheets, and the sheet with all the positioning was not being served quickly 
enough by the server (did it work again on refresh at the time 
?)
 
We may 
need some more info to make a correct diagnosis...otherwise, put it down to sh*t 
happens..."the inter-web was having a bad day" type thing...
 
Patrick

Patrick H. 
LaukeWebmaster / University of Salfordhttp://www.salford.ac.uk 


  -Original Message-From: Jackie Reid 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 09 March 2004 
  11:07To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [WSG] Whats 
  going on
  Hi you lot
   
  Can someone please explain this to 
  me...
   
  I have had a site up and running for a couple of 
  months and doing its thing just fine. Now today out of nowhere it suddenly 
  decides that absolute positioning is out and all those sections of the site 
  simply disappeared from view.
   
  After much tooing and frowing I decided to 
  try  floating them instead and Voila there are all the bits i couldnt see 
  before. WHY WHY WHY...Why would this have 
  happened. Got me totally beat.
   
  Anyone had any problems like this before and if 
  so what the heck was it.
   
  (must admit that im pretty proud of myself for 
  sorting it but thats not the point really)
   
   
  Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site 
  Development1st Floor92 Victoria StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 
  4035
   
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

[WSG] Whats going on

[Jackie Reid]

Hi you lot
 
Can someone please explain this to 
me...
 
I have had a site up and running for a couple of 
months and doing its thing just fine. Now today out of nowhere it suddenly 
decides that absolute positioning is out and all those sections of the site 
simply disappeared from view.
 
After much tooing and frowing I decided to 
try  floating them instead and Voila there are all the bits i couldnt see 
before. WHY WHY WHY...Why would this have 
happened. Got me totally beat.
 
Anyone had any problems like this before and if so 
what the heck was it.
 
(must admit that im pretty proud of myself for 
sorting it but thats not the point really)
 
 
Jackie ReidMock Orange Web Site 
Development1st Floor92 Victoria StreetMACKAY Q 4740Ph: 07 4953 
4035
 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [WSG] Accessibility checkers for Mac (OS X)

[Jonathan Baldwin]

If you're using Dreamweaver, then Lift is an option: 
http://www.usablenet.com/products_services/lift_dw/lift_dw.html

On 9 Mar 2004, at 02:10, Ian Lloyd wrote:

downloadable tool for Mac OS X to check accessibility in any way?
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Re: [WSG] turning back to the dark side...

[Leo J. O'Campo]

Brendan

And let the float be with you...

Leo

On Tuesday, March 9, 2004, at 12:19  AM, Brendan Smith wrote:

"And by the way ... I'm your father. "

Am I to take it then that CSS is essentially a bunch of Jedi mind 
tricks?

Brendan



From: Universal Head [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tue 09/03/04 4:12 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] turning back to the dark side...
Good one Ross! Nice site ... though maybe a bit more leading in the 
body copy would make it easy to read (sorry for being picky).

And by the way ... I'm your father.

Peter ;)

On 09/03/2004, at 4:00 PM, Paul Ross wrote:

	As a footnote to this thread I want to add that I did in fact stick 
to the light
	and the way and the website was launched as XHTML/CSS.



Universal Head
Design That Works.
7/43 Bridge Rd Stanmore
NSW 2048 Australia
T (+612) 9517 1466
F (+612) 9565 4747
E [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W www.universalhead.com

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