Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
A while a go, I wrote a bit about the problems with IE [1], and asked myself (and anyone reading) some questions about why Microsoft has not done anything to make IE better in several years. Several interesting theories are mentioned in the comments, but what I think is most likely closest to the truth is in comment #26 [2]. A quote: Microsoft is not improving standards support in IE because they want to discourage the use of the browser as a platform for developing applications that are not operating system dependant. Improving support for CSS, PNG, and other standards such as Xforms, etc. would only make the browser a better application platform. It doesnt matter if Microsoft owns the browser market. If developers switch over to creating standards based web applications Microsoft loses control of their customers. Standards based web applications can be easily run in competing browsers and, yes, even on competing operating systems. So, you may want to forward this theory and ask them how close to the truth it is. [1] http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200412/ internet_explorer_is_already_breaking_the_web/ [2] http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200412/ internet_explorer_is_already_breaking_the_web/#comment2433 /Roger -- http://www.456bereastreet.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] PC IE problem
I've produced a simple 3-page website which appears as intended on Safari, Firefox, Camino and even (gasp!) IE 5.2 for Mac, also Firefox and Mozilla for PC, but not IE6 for PC. If you look at www.startwelllearning.co.uk/catalogue.html, you'll see the problem with the right-hand margin. The other 2 pages appear to be OK. The CSS is at www.startwelllearning.co.uk/styles/first.css and both it and the html validate. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks, Mary ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] PC IE problem
From a very brief look I guess it may be a margin problem because of the
wide image. You may have to include this hack to adjust margins for
different browsers.
.item {
margin-left: 10%;
}
htmlbody .item {margin-left: 20%; }
/*** IE doubles the margin on the float. This sets
the margin to the correct width for others
***/
Graham
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mary Wright
Sent: Thursday, 6 January 2005 10:38 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] PC IE problem
I've produced a simple 3-page website which appears as intended on
Safari, Firefox, Camino and even (gasp!) IE 5.2 for Mac, also Firefox
and Mozilla for PC, but not IE6 for PC. If you look at
www.startwelllearning.co.uk/catalogue.html, you'll see the problem with
the right-hand margin. The other 2 pages appear to be OK.
The CSS is at www.startwelllearning.co.uk/styles/first.css and both it
and the html validate. Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Mary
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Re: [WSG] when to post, was - asking a PC user for a page check
Hi folks, Good discussion. I'd only like to add that for some of us, myself included, looking at sites is one way we can 'pay back' the help we've gotten. I can't yet help others with problems, so I don't mind checking (when I have time). But I also don't want more posts than necessary. Best regards, Marilyn Langfeld http://www.langfeldesigns.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [WSG] when to post, was - asking a PC user for a page check
Hi,
I just really have to say: don't ask for PC users if you
really mean Windows users. I always check that kind of
posts just to find out they are talking about IE, which
does not run on my system (which still is PC).
And usually you are interested from software anyway -
doesn't really matter if I run Windows on PC or
emulate it on Macintosh or opposite way around...
regards,
Rene
PS. The page looks fine in Konqueror, except the small font,
but this is always the problem when font size is specified
relatively. The lines can become quite long also (why not
specify max-width at least)
And it looks like there is an error in your CSS-file:
#contents
{
margin-top: 1.2em;;
margin-right: 10em;
margin-left: 12em;
}
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Re: [WSG] PC IE problem
Hope this isn't unrelated, but I would encode the email addy for spam bots. Page looks good to me, ie6 pc Bruce www.bkdesign.ca Mary Wright wrote: I've produced a simple 3-page website ... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Is sending abusive spam doing standards good or harm?
Steven Clark wrote: I think you may have the wrong end of the stick on what the initial post was about. Someone wanted to point out that a site was badly made and another suggested the sending of this document. All I am suggesting is that in that circumstance it is neither professional nor in the best interest of one's cause to be abusive. The posting it was raised in was called: Re: [WSG] What can you say to a site like this? It wasn't a document I wandered across and just thought yuk, obviously. Enough said. Steven Clark Norty Pig Web Development http://www.nortypig.com http://www.blog.nortypig.com _ Click here for the latest chart ringtones: http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** So you are the one in error. In the future if you are going to start a debate type topic make sure to make your point clear. Seeing as you have created it make sure to read through all the responses and consider what people have said. Debates on etiquette are probably not particularly relevant anyway, I would advise against starting such topics. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] PC IE problem
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Graham
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 7:12 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] PC IE problem
From a very brief look I guess it may be a margin problem because of the
wide image. You may have to include this hack to adjust margins for
different browsers.
.item {
margin-left: 10%;
}
htmlbody .item {margin-left: 20%; }
/*** IE doubles the margin on the float. This sets
the margin to the correct width for others ***/
Graham
The banner isn't floated. It is in a table -- tsk, tsk. And the cell for the
catalogue gif contains an id called introduction. Your css contain a class
intro but I don't see an introduction. Does that matter? Depends on what
you thought introduction was supposed to do.
Code validates.
drew
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RE: [WSG] Is sending abusive spam doing standards good or harm?
Hi all, If you have any specific concerns please forward them to info@webboy.net or [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'll just mention that you can't write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] as it's a closed list and you'll be rejected posting to it unless you are subscribed. Sorry Mark :( I am working on another form of communication for list admin or core group contact to take some pressure off info@webboy.net which is also our business address. I'll let you know when I come up with something. P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Negative Margins
Bruce wrote: I have used negative margins at various times, but I have a question I would like to throw out there. I work a lot reconfiguring Movable Type, and there can be a series of articles down a page. On my main page, I have a border around each one, but the positioning I used to have content first in the template after the heading meant that I had to set a top margin of 100px. Problem was, that carried through all the posts making them 100px apart...as the template rewrites each article from the same code, and is way too much space. I set the bottom margin to -80px to remove the space. Looks good in Firefox and Internet explorer6, and I am sure it is fine. It is just that setting margins to -80 seems kinda hacking CSS...maybe not in a good way? What do you think? Site is xhtml1.0 Transitional Bruce Prochnau, www.bkdesign.ca I wouldn't call it hacking, however I try to avoid negative margins as much as possible. That said, do make use of the possibility because sometimes they can do great things in the way of effects that are otherwise difficult and/or messy to achieve. It can even negate the use of hacks in some situations. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] ATO - shame shame shame...
Can I sue the ATO over this - like the SOCOG case. http://pki.ato.gov.au/atocdia/welcome.htm I can't get my digital certificate without installing IE again... It is GONE! I dont want it. I dont want NN either (its good, but I love my firefox)... Can they force me to download IE to complete my business registration? Can they not simply uphold web standards! Ahhh I am mad. I will call them - tell them to print it out or whatever it is. and mail it to me... Deary me... The government has failed again... :) -- Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.neester.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 3/01/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] About iPod css guide
Hi, I'm searching for a link posted by a wsg member some time ago about a css guide for iPod (I don't mean the Westciv one!). Thank you in advance for any help. Nicola Rubeo www.computertime-az.it
Re: [WSG] About iPod css guide
Hi, I think you mean this one: Downloadable from http://deyalexander.com/resources/podguide/ the WebAccessibility podGuide includes: * Authoring Tools Accessibility Guidelines (ATAG 1.0) * User Agent Accessibility Guidelines (UAAG 1.0) * Web Content Accessibility Guidelines (WCAG 1.0) * Section 508 standards for web, software, multimedia and relatedaccessibility.Cheers,Dey greetings johannes - Original Message - From: Nicola Rubeo To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 6:09 PM Subject: [WSG] About iPod css guide Hi, I'm searching for a link posted by a wsg member some time ago about a css guide for iPod (I don't mean the Westciv one!). Thank you in advance for any help. Nicola Rubeo www.computertime-az.it
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
A respondant to Roger's blog wrote: Microsoft is not improving standards support in IE because they want to discourage the use of the browser as a platform for developing applications that are not operating system dependant. Improving support for CSS, PNG, and other standards such as Xforms, etc. would only make the browser a better application platform. It doesnt matter if Microsoft owns the browser market. If developers switch over to creating standards based web applications Microsoft loses control of their customers. Standards based web applications can be easily run in competing browsers and, yes, even on competing operating systems. I disagree... Look at Hotmail... that's an example of Microsoft's vision for web-applications 4 years ago... and Hotmail relies on CSS and DOM JavaScript for many of its functions anyway. Microsoft has been hyping about web-applications more than you'd imagine, the MSDN Library is full of articles on the subject. 3 of the included posters in the 2003 edition are about web-applications. But I'm convinced Microsoft will make IE7 support standards... why? Because VS 2005 supports the entire XHTML1.1 and CSS2.1 spec, even if Internet Explorer 6 doesn't. This would be wasting the VS dev team's time if they weren't going to make these features available commonplace in a short while. See: http://www.asp.net/whidbey/whitepapers/VSWhidbeyOverview.aspx?tabindex=0tabid=1 (scroll down to Better Standards Support (near the bottom... and please, no cynical remarks about leaving the least to the last) There was another page with more information, but I've since lost the URI -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] ATO - shame shame shame...
Chris Stratford wrote: Can I sue the ATO over this - like the SOCOG case. Deary me... The government has failed again... :) Depends on what laws the austrailian government has in place for web accessability for government sites. If this was a US or UK government site, then yes... I'm guessing austrailian legal stature is very similar. But I'd definatly raise it with them. I can't stand web'masters' who create javascript popups telling me I have a downlevel browser. Since when was IE ever superior to Firefox, Konqueror, or Safari? -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
On 6 jan 2005, at 19.14, David R wrote: But I'm convinced Microsoft will make IE7 support standards... why? Because VS 2005 supports the entire XHTML1.1 and CSS2.1 spec, even if Internet Explorer 6 doesn't. This would be wasting the VS dev team's time if they weren't going to make these features available commonplace in a short while. I hope you're right. I've heard about the next version of Visual Studio being much better, so it does look promising. Still, it would be interesting to hear the IE dev team's response to the quote I sent. I'd understand if they aren't able to respond to that (either because they aren't allowed to, or because they just don't know). /Roger -- http://www.456bereastreet.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] ATO - shame shame shame...
http://www.w3.org/WAI/Policy/#Australia WAI country guide Bruce David R wrote: Chris Stratford wrote: Can I sue the ATO over this - like the SOCOG case. Deary me... The government has failed again... :) Depends on what laws the austrailian government has in place for web accessability for government sites. If this was a US or UK government site, then yes... I'm guessing austrailian legal stature is very similar. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
Microsoft has been hyping about web-applications more than you'd imagine, the MSDN Library is full of articles on the subject. 3 of the included posters in the 2003 edition are about web-applications. They don't think about W3C-standards based applications. They are just using a buzzrword to push .NET apps. But I'm convinced Microsoft will make IE7 support standards... why? Because VS 2005 supports the entire XHTML1.1 and CSS2.1 spec They have to support some HTML, XML and CSS anyway, so that's not a problem to add few extra tags. Page you mentioned promotes layout table creator and shows some non-standard code... Microsoft knows that there are web standards. They used W3C to get help on creating technologies they needed, but Microsoft doesn't *gain* anything from supporting other W3C standards. They will support standards when they see cash coming from it, or when someone forces them to do it. How *Microsoft* would benefit from supporting XHTML and CSS2? ... it just doesn't sell. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
Kornel Lesinski wrote: How *Microsoft* would benefit from supporting XHTML and CSS2? To play the counter act here... How does microsoft benefit by offering IE at all? It's free. Updates are free. It costs them bandwidth for downloads and updates. It costs them staff time to code, fix, patch, etc. and they don't get a dime off it. So why not support some standards :p ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
I think you have to also understand there are many 'Microsoft's' depending on which department / product you are referring to. The global company name might be the same, but departments are segmented and don't necessarily talk to each other. I've been to a Microsoft presentation where the VB.NET product manager (one of them) was discussing the design decisions they made and the design decisions that the C# group made. Point being even groups as similar as a programming language were not at all on the same page. In fact he discussed battling with the office group about supporting certain .NET features in their API. Each group is responsible for what makes THEM money and is best for THEM, and it doesn't necessarily matter what another group is trying to promote. Hence one 'Microsoft' supported WC3 standards... Another 'Microsoft' doesn't even consider web standards when writing what .NET will put out. When it comes to the next IE7, the process will be the same. That group will make thousands of design decisions from the same basis, time and money. It will probably be very standard compliant because the market is very different right now from what it was then, but it will not be what we may want it to be. Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kornel Lesinski Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 10:59 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team Microsoft has been hyping about web-applications more than you'd imagine, the MSDN Library is full of articles on the subject. 3 of the included posters in the 2003 edition are about web-applications. They don't think about W3C-standards based applications. They are just using a buzzrword to push .NET apps. But I'm convinced Microsoft will make IE7 support standards... why? Because VS 2005 supports the entire XHTML1.1 and CSS2.1 spec They have to support some HTML, XML and CSS anyway, so that's not a problem to add few extra tags. Page you mentioned promotes layout table creator and shows some non-standard code... Microsoft knows that there are web standards. They used W3C to get help on creating technologies they needed, but Microsoft doesn't *gain* anything from supporting other W3C standards. They will support standards when they see cash coming from it, or when someone forces them to do it. How *Microsoft* would benefit from supporting XHTML and CSS2? ... it just doesn't sell. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] ATO - shame shame shame...
Terrence Wood wrote: Chris, you probably can sue them, but it may well be better to contact them directly, point out the error of their ways and offer to fix it for them. Hmmm What would result in the bigger monetary gain though? Suing them, or them paying you to fix it? Or do both and collect twice! :p ...Kidding :) -- -David R ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Conditional comments
What I wondering is, could a comment be used to feed a GIF variant of a logo to IE to replace a PNG (with alpha) that IE doesn't support? Don't double your code. Using apache mod_rewrite and PHP you can make all PNG 'files' to actually contain GIF, if requested by explorer. See: http://osiolki.net/i/ossredni -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Conditional comments
What I wondering is, could a comment be used to feed a GIF
variant of a
logo to IE to replace a PNG (with alpha) that IE doesn't support?
Yes it could be done. For instance, if your general CSS code were something
like:
#wrapper { background-image: url(../images/fall_bk_right.png);}
and you wanted to serve IE6 a GIF version, then you would put the following
within your head tag:
!--[if IE 6]
style
#wrapper { background-image: url(../images/fall_bk_right.gif);}
/style
![endif]--
Make sure the above sits BELOW your CSS declarations, so that it is read in
after and supercedes the rule in the regular CSS.
Regards,
Ron
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Re: [WSG] Conditional comments
Don't double your code. Using apache mod_rewrite and PHP you can make all PNG 'files' to actually contain GIF, if requested by explorer. See: http://osiolki.net/i/ossredni Kornel: Ok, I'm not great with PHP, but if there are some instructions somewhere, I'm sure I could figure it...I think!! Patrick: I'm going to go see what you have up your sleeve and I'll get back to you later...I always like weird! Thanks, Wayne -- Wayne Godfrey President, Creative Director Outgate Media, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Conditional comments
I would do something along the line of the below perhaps, recently did,
but am wondering if it is a good idea?:
!--[if IE]
style
h1.one(or something)
{visibility:visible}
h1.two(or something else)
{visibility:invisible}
/style
![endif]--
Bruce Prochnau
www.bkdesign.ca
Kornel Lesinski wrote:
What I wondering is, could a comment be used to feed a GIF variant of
a logo to IE to replace a PNG (with alpha) that IE doesn't support?
Don't double your code.
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[WSG] Advice on updating a site
Hi all, Sometime in the near future, I will be embarking on the ambitious project to convert this site: http://www.essentialbaby.com.au/CFForum/ To a CSS based layout. Be warned, viewing the source of that may cause blindness and/or temporary insanity... suffice to say it was handed to us by a previous developer... When you look at that home page, and maybe 1 or 2 of the forum index pages, does that say 'table' based layout to you? Or would it make more sense to find a way to represent the main pages without using tables. To me that looks like a table, but I haven't been doing this for that long and you guys might have a different perspective on it. thanks, bye! --- Ryan Sabir Newgency Pty Ltd 2a Broughton St Paddington 2021 Sydney, Australia Ph (02) 9331 2133 Fax (02) 9331 5199 Mobile: 0411 512 454 http://www.newgency.com/index.cfm?referer=rysig ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] XHTML complient in-browser Rich Text Editor.
Hi Everyone, I am looking for a lean browser based text editor which creates valid XHTML output. Basically I would use a normal text area, but the site I am developing requires the ability to add hyper links, paragraphs, and change the text style. I want something that will automatically run (i.e. I want to avoid having the user manually install something)... I have looked at xstandard (http://www.xstandard.com) and I'm pretty impressed, but I found it to be really slow to load as it might be a bit too rich on functionality for my needs... Just wondered if anyone has any other recommendations for a nice simple RTE??? Cheers, Matt ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Conditional comments
On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 16:39:46 -0500, Bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I would do something along the line of the below perhaps, recently did,
but am wondering if it is a good idea?:
!--[if IE]
style
h1.one(or something)
{visibility:visible}
h1.two(or something else)
{visibility:invisible}
/style
![endif]--
I'd use:
!--[if lt IE 7]link rel=stylesheet href=hacks.css type=text/css
/![endif]--
--
regards, Kornel Lesiski
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Re: [WSG] ATO - shame shame shame...
Chris Their minimum system requirements http://pki.ato.gov.au/atocdia/MinSysReq.htm suggest that Netscape 7.1 is supported. Given that this browser is basically Mozilla 1.4 it's probable that they have a faulty browser sniffer* Threatening to sue them because of a faulty browser sniffer is probably not a good idea. Maybe you can assist them by providing them with your Firefox/Mozilla user agent Its always good to look before leaping. HTH James *Using the User Agent extension and altering to Netscape 7.1 and IE 6 allows you to install their certificate. On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 03:16:34 +1100, Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can I sue the ATO over this - like the SOCOG case. http://pki.ato.gov.au/atocdia/welcome.htm I can't get my digital certificate without installing IE again... It is GONE! I dont want it. I dont want NN either (its good, but I love my firefox)... Can they force me to download IE to complete my business registration? Can they not simply uphold web standards! Ahhh I am mad. I will call them - tell them to print it out or whatever it is. and mail it to me... Deary me... The government has failed again... :) -- Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.neester.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 3/01/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Conditional comments
Kornel Lesinski wrote: Using apache mod_rewrite and PHP you can make all PNG 'files' to actually contain GIF, if requested by explorer. Actually, with the help of filters, IE can render PNGs properly. With that in mind, you can use JavaScript in the header to set a cookie and then have the server check for that cookie. Then if IE caught with out the cookie, give them what they deserve. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] XHTML complient in-browser Rich Text Editor.
Matt wrote: Hi Everyone, I am looking for a lean browser based text editor which creates valid XHTML output. Basically I would use a normal text area, but the site I am developing requires the ability to add hyper links, paragraphs, and change the text style. I want something that will automatically run (i.e. I want to avoid having the user manually install something)... I have looked at xstandard (http://www.xstandard.com) and I'm pretty impressed, but I found it to be really slow to load as it might be a bit too rich on functionality for my needs... TinyMCE is what I use and recommend: http://tinymce.moxiecode.com/ It usually outputs valid code. Lawrence Meckan Absalom Media Mob: (04) 1047 9633 ABN: 49 286 495 792 http://www.absalom.biz ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
Agreed, Ryan, it will be a strategic decision. As much as we may wish to influence the outcome, MS will take the better course for their business. It's a question of a thousand words or none. Influence will be market dominated, as simple as that. They're a brilliant company when it comes to offering perceived solutions to client requirements. Provided the (corporate and private) public remain naive to solutions, MS will dictate resolutions. It's a case of percolation. Standards and accessibility will coalesce upon advent of clear market threat to those outside the envelope. It's balancing an equation with many factors culminating in projected customer expectation. These are simple business economics. But that does not mean to say we cannot shape the future. Education. Teach by fiscal example. Illustrate by factual example: Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer () www.seowebsitepromotion.com www.gawds.org GAWDS Admin [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.gawds.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ryan Nichols Sent: 06 January 2005 19:59 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team I think you have to also understand there are many 'Microsoft's' depending on which department / product you are referring to. The global company name might be the same, but departments are segmented and don't necessarily talk to each other. I've been to a Microsoft presentation where the VB.NET product manager (one of them) was discussing the design decisions they made and the design decisions that the C# group made. Point being even groups as similar as a programming language were not at all on the same page. In fact he discussed battling with the office group about supporting certain .NET features in their API. Each group is responsible for what makes THEM money and is best for THEM, and it doesn't necessarily matter what another group is trying to promote. Hence one 'Microsoft' supported WC3 standards... Another 'Microsoft' doesn't even consider web standards when writing what .NET will put out. When it comes to the next IE7, the process will be the same. That group will make thousands of design decisions from the same basis, time and money. It will probably be very standard compliant because the market is very different right now from what it was then, but it will not be what we may want it to be. Ryan Nichols Graphic Design / Web Development Matrixwebs.com 1.800.711.2829 18330 Sutter Blvd. Morgan Hill, CA 95037 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kornel Lesinski Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 10:59 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team Microsoft has been hyping about web-applications more than you'd imagine, the MSDN Library is full of articles on the subject. 3 of the included posters in the 2003 edition are about web-applications. They don't think about W3C-standards based applications. They are just using a buzzrword to push .NET apps. But I'm convinced Microsoft will make IE7 support standards... why? Because VS 2005 supports the entire XHTML1.1 and CSS2.1 spec They have to support some HTML, XML and CSS anyway, so that's not a problem to add few extra tags. Page you mentioned promotes layout table creator and shows some non-standard code... Microsoft knows that there are web standards. They used W3C to get help on creating technologies they needed, but Microsoft doesn't *gain* anything from supporting other W3C standards. They will support standards when they see cash coming from it, or when someone forces them to do it. How *Microsoft* would benefit from supporting XHTML and CSS2? ... it just doesn't sell. -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03/01/05 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03/01/05 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Font suggestions
Tricia Fitzgerald wrote: Does anyone know of a whimsical font that works in all browsers? I've tried Kidprint but that does not work on any of the Mac browsers nor AOL on the pc. It's not about browsers not supporting a font...it's the fonts themselves which need to be installed on the user's machine to be viewable. -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Marking up a song chart
Hi, What do you people reckon should be the semantic markup for a song chart ala Billboard Top 40? Sample here: http://www.i-bands.net/charts.php (no, I don't own this site so I can't add a doctype etc etc) It's a list of songs, so ol is the gut reaction. But what about the information within each song listing? table within a li? Keen to find out what you guys think... Thanks Wong Call me old fashioned, but a simple table seems like the way to go here because that's what a table does: present data. You can make complex relations between data much clearer and accessible by using a properly marked-up table. 456 Berea Street had a good post on it recently: http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200410/bring_on_the_tables/ Although I must admit Mr. Brown's markup http://www.tbrown.org/ideas/tabularlist/ adventure was pretty interesting to check out! Cheers all, Erwin Heiser ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Is sending abusive spam doing standards good or harm?
To quote Jixor: So you are the one in error. In the future if you are going to start a debate type topic make sure to make your point clear. Seeing as you have created it make sure to read through all the responses and consider what people have said. Debates on etiquette are probably not particularly relevant anyway, I would advise against starting such topics. Ummm I really don't understand what you are on about I simply asked a question regarding the aggressive approach. No I wasn't wrong. Yes I did read all responses. Yes in future I will be a lot smarter than to post to the list. In future like others I will sit back and read instead of thinking I have anything to contribute. Thankyou (politely) for your input. Now I have to get some work done here as xmas is over. Enough said again. Steven Clark Norty Pig Web Development http://www.nortypig.com http://www.blog.nortypig.com _ Need a credit card fast? Apply online now! Must be over 18 and AU only: http://ad.au.doubleclick.net/clk;11046970;10638934;f?http://www.anz.com/aus/promo/first1004ninemsn/default.asp ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Font suggestions
Tricia Fitzgerald wrote: Does anyone know of a whimsical font that works in all browsers? I've tried Kidprint but that does not work on any of the Mac browsers nor AOL on the pc. font-family: fantasy; --- guaranteed to be 'whimsical' on any browser... ...and also very nasty (think 'Comic Sans', 'Curlz MT' et all) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Redesigning an eyesore
Hello all, I just finished my redesign of the website of a local dance school. It¹s a site that has been an eyesore for years so I jumped on the opportunity for a standards-based redesign when it presented itself a few months ago. The URL: http://www.terpsichore.be Big deal I can hear you think but compare this to the previous site: http://www.terpsichore.be/oldsite/index.html Yes, it¹s all there: no doctype, framesets, applets for navigation, animated gifs and lots of lovely Frontpage generated tag soup (I¹m not even going to mention the layout or design). On some pages the weight was reduced from 54kb to 10 or 11kb (you do the math). In fact the largest page on the current site is 20kb, that¹s the gallery holding all the teachers resumes (docenten for all you non-dutch speaking people ;-) ). I used the drop-down menu from http://www.gazingus.org/html/Using_Lists_for_DHTML_Menus.html which degrades nicely in the absence of css and degrades well in older browsers. I've tested it on Mac: Safari, Firefox, Netscape, Omniweb and PC: IE6, Netscape and Firefox. Only Opera shifts the dropdown list-items some 35px to the right for some reason. The only thing that still needs some work are the tables holding the class schedule to make them more accessible. I¹m not going to change anything on the design (for now) but it just seemed like a good showcase for web standards since you can easily compare the new version with the old one. Any and all comments appreciated and sorry for the long post! Erwin Heiser. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Redesigning an eyesore
Looks good, a big improvement on the old site, especially because you removed the Java navigation elements. I have just one query, the menus at the top only appear when clicked, is this the intended behaviour? I expected that they would appear when the mouse was over them. I was viewing the site in Firefox 1.0 on WinXP SP2. Ryan S ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Redesigning an eyesore
Wow, you've really made a HUGE improvement there! It looks great now, even without comparing it to the old site. In fact the old site made firefox crash for me! Good job! Erwin Heiser wrote: Hello all, I just finished my redesign of the website of a local dance school. It¹s a site that has been an eyesore for years so I jumped on the opportunity for a standards-based redesign when it presented itself a few months ago. The URL: http://www.terpsichore.be Big deal I can hear you think but compare this to the previous site: http://www.terpsichore.be/oldsite/index.html Yes, it¹s all there: no doctype, framesets, applets for navigation, animated gifs and lots of lovely Frontpage generated tag soup (I¹m not even going to mention the layout or design). On some pages the weight was reduced from 54kb to 10 or 11kb (you do the math). In fact the largest page on the current site is 20kb, that¹s the gallery holding all the teachers resumes (docenten for all you non-dutch speaking people ;-) ). I used the drop-down menu from http://www.gazingus.org/html/Using_Lists_for_DHTML_Menus.html which degrades nicely in the absence of css and degrades well in older browsers. I've tested it on Mac: Safari, Firefox, Netscape, Omniweb and PC: IE6, Netscape and Firefox. Only Opera shifts the dropdown list-items some 35px to the right for some reason. The only thing that still needs some work are the tables holding the class schedule to make them more accessible. I¹m not going to change anything on the design (for now) but it just seemed like a good showcase for web standards since you can easily compare the new version with the old one. Any and all comments appreciated and sorry for the long post! Erwin Heiser. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03/01/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Redesigning an eyesore
-Original Message- From: Erwin Heiser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 7 January 2005 12:07 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Redesigning an eyesore Hello all, I just finished my redesign of the website of a local dance school. The URL: http://www.terpsichore.be Any and all comments appreciated and sorry for the long post! I definitely like the new look of your page. No question. I am not a big fan of those dropdowns, though. Why do I have to click on the primary item to get the dropdown? It forces the user to make an additional click that is not really necessary. The good old mouseOver would do the job much better, I think. In particular as there is no choice: if I want to navigate your site I need the navigation items that are currently hidden. One other thing I noticed lately: most standards-based websites suddenly start to look the same. They've got this A-List-Apart look on them: centered, 800px wide, horizontal navigation at the top. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but the second you see that design style you know it was done by a fan of web standards. I wonder where this comes from? Sorry, this sounds like I am only complaining about your site. These were just two things that came to my mind. But in general I really like the new design. HTH. Andreas Boehmer User Experience Consultant Phone: (03) 9417 0468 Mobile: (0411) 097 038 http://www.addictiveMedia.com.au Consulting | Accessibility | Usability | Development ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Please Check Menu / PC user
Hi, I create two menus, one using px and one using pt. I would like to know if there is a difference in IE 5.5 , IE 6 and Opera7 between the two menus and if the two menus appear correctly. http://www3.sympatico.ca/berryf/Template2.htm http://www3.sympatico.ca/berryf/Template.htm Thanks in advance for the information. Regards Berry ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] ATO - shame shame shame...
I just fired that page up in NN7, but rejected their applet/certificate. I got this priceless error message: You have chosen not to trust the ATO. Please close all browser windows and start again. You know, I never did trust the ATO ;) Can I sue the ATO over this - like the SOCOG case. I can't get my digital certificate without installing IE again... I dont want NN either (its good, but I love my firefox)... Can they force me to download IE to complete my business registration? This is actually a good question, particularly if you view IE as a security risk (which many experts clearly do). I wonder perhaps if being forced to install software would constitute undue hardship? You could probably get the ATO into HREOC arbitration. -h -- --- http://cheshrkat.blogspot.com/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Please Check Menu / PC user
On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:43:51 -0500, berry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I create two menus, one using px and one using pt. I would like to know if there is a difference in IE 5.5 , IE 6 and Opera7 between the two menus and if the two menus appear correctly. http://www3.sympatico.ca/berryf/Template2.htm http://www3.sympatico.ca/berryf/Template.htm Thanks in advance for the information. Regards Berry XP_SP2 All browsers: Fonts are way too small, and they do not scale in IE. Only the pixel version checked-- points are for print media, not the Web. And IE can't scale pixels. Consider using % or % and em's to set the fonts. CSS HTML error list at bottom. Renders as intended, I guess, in Opera7.54.u1 IE6.0 IE555SP2_NT li's not styled. Errors URI : http://www3.sympatico.ca/berryf/Template2.htm * Line: 24 Context : ul Property paddign doesn't exist : 0 * Line: 38 Context : dl Property paddign doesn't exist : 0 This page is not Valid HTML 4.01 Strict! Below are the results of attempting to parse this document with an SGML parser. 1. Line 89, column 4: end tag for element DD which is not open /dd Best, David -- http://www.dlaakso.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Please Check Menu / PC user
Thank You for Your advice. The HTML correction was done but for the font size, what I would like to know is how it appear on a 800 * 600. If you can send me a print screen it would be appreciate. The problem using em and % is when use box with fix size. The font appear sometimes out of the edge of the box. What I am trying to do is finding the correct size in px or pt for 800*600 Pc and manage font and design using Javascript depending on the size of the screen That way I am sure that the font and the design will be always be the same with different resolution. That way user don't have to enlarge windows. The design will be always a the good size. Regards Berry On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:43:51 -0500, berry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I create two menus, one using px and one using pt. I would like to know if there is a difference in IE 5.5 , IE 6 and Opera7 between the two menus and if the two menus appear correctly. http://www3.sympatico.ca/berryf/Template2.htm http://www3.sympatico.ca/berryf/Template.htm Thanks in advance for the information. Regards Berry XP_SP2 All browsers: Fonts are way too small, and they do not scale in IE. Only the pixel version checked-- points are for print media, not the Web. And IE can't scale pixels. Consider using % or % and em's to set the fonts. CSS HTML error list at bottom. Renders as intended, I guess, in Opera7.54.u1 IE6.0 IE555SP2_NT li's not styled. Errors URI : http://www3.sympatico.ca/berryf/Template2.htm * Line: 24 Context : ul Property paddign doesn't exist : 0 * Line: 38 Context : dl Property paddign doesn't exist : 0 This page is not Valid HTML 4.01 Strict! Below are the results of attempting to parse this document with an SGML parser. 1. Line 89, column 4: end tag for element DD which is not open /dd Best, David -- http://www.dlaakso.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] ATO - shame shame shame...
Thanks for all the replies! I wasn't serious about threatening to sue. It was just an expression of rage ;) Thanks for the pointers! I will definatly let them know! Cheers! James Ellis wrote: Chris Their minimum system requirements http://pki.ato.gov.au/atocdia/MinSysReq.htm suggest that Netscape 7.1 is supported. Given that this browser is basically Mozilla 1.4 it's probable that they have a faulty browser sniffer* Threatening to sue them because of a faulty browser sniffer is probably not a good idea. Maybe you can assist them by providing them with your Firefox/Mozilla user agent Its always good to look before leaping. HTH James *Using the User Agent extension and altering to Netscape 7.1 and IE 6 allows you to install their certificate. On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 03:16:34 +1100, Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can I sue the ATO over this - like the SOCOG case. http://pki.ato.gov.au/atocdia/welcome.htm I can't get my digital certificate without installing IE again... It is GONE! I dont want it. I dont want NN either (its good, but I love my firefox)... Can they force me to download IE to complete my business registration? Can they not simply uphold web standards! Ahhh I am mad. I will call them - tell them to print it out or whatever it is. and mail it to me... Deary me... The government has failed again... :) -- Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.neester.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 3/01/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.neester.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 6/01/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Please Check Menu / PC user
berry wrote: That way I am sure that the font and the design will be always be the same with different resolution. That way user don't have to enlarge windows. The design will be always a the good size. http://www3.sympatico.ca/berryf/Template2.htm I'm sorry, but you cannot rely on something like that. a: My minimum font size is set in advance - and the page breaks. b: If I use IE/win and the font size is too small, then I use IE/win's own font size. It's only two clicks away in all versions of IE/win. You will do better with some retesting and changes to your methods and font sizes. The visitor is in control... regards Georg ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Please Check Menu / PC user
Try browser cam for a capture: http://browsercam.com/ On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:55:17 -0500, berry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thank You for Your advice. The HTML correction was done but for the font size, what I would like to know is how it appear on a 800 * 600. If you can send me a print screen it would be appreciate. The problem using em and % is when use box with fix size. The font appear sometimes out of the edge of the box. What I am trying to do is finding the correct size in px or pt for 800*600 Pc and manage font and design using Javascript depending on the size of the screen That way I am sure that the font and the design will be always be the same with different resolution. That way user don't have to enlarge windows. The design will be always a the good size. Regards Berry On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:43:51 -0500, berry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip XP_SP2 All browsers: Fonts are way too small, and they do not scale in IE. Only the pixel version checked-- points are for print media, not the Web. And IE can't scale pixels. Consider using % or % and em's to set the fonts. CSS HTML error list at bottom. Renders as intended, I guess, in Opera7.54.u1 IE6.0 IE555SP2_NT li's not styled. Errors URI : http://www3.sympatico.ca/berryf/Template2.htm * Line: 24 Context : ul Property paddign doesn't exist : 0 * Line: 38 Context : dl Property paddign doesn't exist : 0 This page is not Valid HTML 4.01 Strict! Below are the results of attempting to parse this document with an SGML parser. 1. Line 89, column 4: end tag for element DD which is not open /dd Best, David -- http://www.dlaakso.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- http://www.dlaakso.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Slightly OT... Interview with IE Dev team
How does microsoft benefit by offering IE at all? It's free. Updates are free. It costs them bandwidth for downloads and updates. It costs them staff time to code, fix, patch, etc. and they don't get a dime off it. Rhetorical I guess but it's a good point. MS benefits from ubiquity. MS Office has become almost universal because everyone has it, so everyone just keeps buying it. They don't want people to break that lack of thought by using some other company's product to browse the web. -- --- http://cheshrkat.blogspot.com/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] PC IE problem
Huh, don't know why, but this quick'n'dirty hack worked:
* html #banner {width: 101.9%;}
--
Jan Brasna :: alphanumeric.cz | webcore.cz | designlab.cz | janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] XHTML complient in-browser Rich Text Editor.
HTMLArea3RC, FCKEditor... -- Jan Brasna :: alphanumeric.cz | webcore.cz | designlab.cz | janbrasna.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Negative Margins
Bruce, Using negative margin is quite mouthful, it may display fine in latest browsers which supports web standards but if you consider to target some of those primitive browsers, I think you should be carefeul using it. :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
