[WSG] Do you still support 4.0 browsers?

[Urbits - Info]

If you go to the Australian Taxation Office's site you will find that 
if you want to download and use E Tax, that you have to use a Version 
5 browser and above.  Does it get worse.my word it does... it has 
to be IE  If you want to use their electronic business access you 
have to use IE as well.  This is to the point that you can't even fill 
in numbers for your ABN (Australian Business Number) if you're using 
Firefox.


No, it's worse than that, you *must* have IE as your *default* browser. 
At least that was the case when I installed about a year ago. The java 
runtime is kind enough to check that IE is default and to bow out if 
not. But once it is installed you can get around the problem and use 
firefox, and it works fine - although I'm sure it'll mean another 
penalty or something :-)


I spoke to a dude at the ATO and he was tremendously sheepish about the 
whole thing. LOL.

Simon

PS. First post - no problems I hope.
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[WSG] Online Store Categories

[Josh Rose]

Ok, I'm creating an online store for a client and they want a browseable list of the store categories, plus a small description of the category underneath each one.     I was planning on using a definition list:   Category  Category Description.   but would a table be more appropriate?     Thanks,  Josh.     And yes, it will be searchable (in fact, I'm putting an "advanced search" box above the category list), it's just they think it's a good idea for the categories to be browseable as well.
		Yahoo! Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo.

Re: [WSG] Online Store Categories

[Darren West]

I would say thats a perfect use for a definition list.

Daz

On 28/02/06, Josh Rose <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ok, I'm creating an online store for a client and they want a browseable
> list of the store categories, plus a small description of the category
> underneath each one.
>
> I was planning on using a definition list:
>
> 
> Category
> Category Description.
> 
>
> but would a table be more appropriate?
>
> Thanks,
> Josh.
>
> And yes, it will be searchable (in fact, I'm putting an "advanced search"
> box above the category list), it's just they think it's a good idea for the
> categories to be browseable as well.
>
>  
> Yahoo! Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a
> photo.
>
>
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Re: Solution! RE: [WSG] form button css

[Martin Heiden]

Ted,

Tuesday, February 28, 2006, 3:13:42 AM, you wrote:

TD> I'm using button with an image per Thierry's suggestion. I didn't want to
TD> use background image on an input because there are some browser
TD> inconsistencies and I didn't want to use an image in the input due to some
TD> accessibility concerns.

Did you test if the button works? AFAIR IE has serious problems with
the button tag. If there are more than one button on a page, it's
impossible to detect which one had been clicked.

I only use the button tag for buttons that trigger JavaScript. For
everything else I use inputs.

regards,

  Martin

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Re: [WSG] Online Store Categories

[Ben Buchanan]

> I was planning on using a definition list:
> 
> Category
> Category Description.
> 
> but would a table be more appropriate?

If that's all the info you need to include, I'd say a DL is perfect.

cheers,

Ben

--
--- 
--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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[WSG] Intrapage-navigation and Jakob Nielsen

[Keryx webb]

Hello again!

A few days ago there were some postings concerning Jakob Nielsens alertbox in 
which he condemned the use of intra-page links. 
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/within_page_links.html


I wrote him the following feedback, slightly condensed:

--- your article on intra-page links or at least it's sidebar perhaps should 
mention that (for browsers that support it) the :target pseudo-class can make 
the result of ones actions clearer, especially when intra-page links are used 
with multi-column layout.


This is not spoken in defense of bad use of such links per se, but in case one 
do use them (skip-links, TOCs, etc) this might be of help. In the case of a 
skip-link one might think this will not be necessary, but if they are hidden 
with display:none many screen readers won't find them. Instead they might be 
hidden by moving them 4000 pixels left or something, which in turn might lead to 
their being included in the page tab-order.


This is actually a good thing, if one likes to include phones, PDAs and other 
devices with small screens. Browsing, using my phone, I like skip links even 
though I'm sighted. They are much more convenient than scrolling myself.



JN:s reply:

Good points, thank you.


I wonder if I will show up as well on his page...


Lars Gunther
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Re: [WSG] Safari stylesheet switcher wierdness!

[Felix Miata]

On 06/02/27 07:35 Adam Morris apparently typed:


http://www.megustalatelevision.com/uwish



I'm trying to provide two versions: fixed and fluid.



On FF everything is fine, IE not too sure about... but Safari..!
On returning to fixed width after choosing the fluid version, all
background images aren't there anymore, and, sometimes, the entire
page is missing except the body background colour!! Refreshing the
page brings things back to normal. I have used the same styleswitcher
script on my personal site and everything's fine... any ideas?


I know my eyes are old and tired, but I just don't see any way to 
trigger any styleswitcher.

--
"Love your neighbor as yourself." Mark 12:31 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/auth
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[WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Michael Yeaney]

Are there any recommendations for screen readers to test with  I'd like to at least 'preview' what our site(s) sound like to such a user.Thanx...Mike

Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Jon Gunderson]

The main screen readers in the United States are:

GW-Micro Windoweyes ($795)
http://www.gwmicro.com/

JAWS for Windows ($1,395)
http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/software_jaws.asp

These have demo versions that run for 40 minutes and then you
need to reboot your computer, if you want to try before you
purchase.

For developer testing in speech there is "IBM Home Page Reader
" is very affordable at $150.
http://www-306.ibm.com/able/


 Original message 
>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 08:52:10 -0500
>From: "Michael Yeaney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
>Subject: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???  
>To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
>
>   Are there any recommendations for screen readers to
>   test with  I'd like to at least 'preview' what
>   our site(s) sound like to such a user.
>
>   Thanx...
>   Mike


Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
Director of IT Accessibility Services
Campus Information Technologies and Educational Services (CITES)
and 
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Disability Resources and Education Services (DRES)

Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248
Cell: (217) 714-6313

E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

WWW: http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/
WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/


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Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Mike at Green-Beast.com]

Hello Michael,

Try the Opera 8.5 browser [1]. Sounds very much like the stand-alone 
products and it's very simple and convenient to use. Great test tool.

 [1] http://www.opera.com/

Sincerely,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/
http://accessites.org/



- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Yeaney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 8:52 AM
Subject: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???


Are there any recommendations for screen readers to test with  I'd like
to at least 'preview' what our site(s) sound like to such a user.

Thanx...
Mike

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Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Ian Anderson]

Michael Yeaney wrote:
Are there any recommendations for screen readers to test with  I'd 
like to at least 'preview' what our site(s) sound like to such a user.


I don't know what country you're in, but in the UK, "HAL" from Dolphin 
is very popular. It's very similar to JAWS but a lot, lot cheaper.

http://www.dolphinuk.co.uk/

JAWS and Window-Eyes are the world leaders, though WE is probably the 
third most-used screen reader in the UK, behind HAL and JAWS.


IBM Home Page Reader is actually the easiest for doing testing in, but 
it isn't a true screen reader and there are sometimes important 
differences in the way things are read. Very few people use this in real 
life compared to the others.


JAWS is by far the most common one - the IE of the screen reader world

HTH

Cheers

Ian



--
_
zStudio - Web development and accessibility
http://zStudio.co.uk

Snippetz.net - Online code library
File, manage and re-use your code snippets & links
http://snippetz.net

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RE: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Berman, Pamela E]

There is also Fire Vox, a free screen reader extension created by
Charles L. Chen for Firefox. It allows you to navigate from the headings
list, links list, etc. which can give you a better understanding for how
some screen readers operate apart from just reading the screen.
https://webspace.utexas.edu/chencl1/clc-4-tts/index.html


Also, Kurzweil 3000 http://www.kurzweiledu.com/products.asp is becoming
popular among users with cognitive and learning disabilities.


Pam Berman

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike at 
> Green-Beast.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 9:19 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???
> 
> Hello Michael,
> 
> Try the Opera 8.5 browser [1]. Sounds very much like the 
> stand-alone products and it's very simple and convenient to 
> use. Great test tool.
> 
>  [1] http://www.opera.com/
> 
> Sincerely,
> Mike Cherim
> http://green-beast.com/
> http://accessites.org/
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Michael Yeaney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 8:52 AM
> Subject: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???
> 
> 
> Are there any recommendations for screen readers to test 
> with  I'd like
> to at least 'preview' what our site(s) sound like to such a user.
> 
> Thanx...
> Mike
> 
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] AIMIA Awards

[Terrence Wood]

On 28 Feb 2006, at 7:04 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


278 errors and 799 warnings on the index page alone.


Provided you have javascript for the redirect into the cms =)

AIMIA site aside, a quick look through some of the entrants is quite 
encouraging compared to some awards sites I've seen in the last few 
years (in the .gov space at least). Well done to those designers.


kind regards
Terrence Wood.


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Re: [WSG] Safari stylesheet switcher wierdness!

[Adam Morris]

I've given up and simply concerted the whole site to the fluid version!On 28/02/06, Felix Miata <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 06/02/27 07:35 Adam Morris apparently typed:> 
http://www.megustalatelevision.com/uwish> I'm trying to provide two versions: fixed and fluid.> On FF everything is fine, IE not too sure about... but Safari..!> On returning to fixed width after choosing the fluid version, all
> background images aren't there anymore, and, sometimes, the entire> page is missing except the body background colour!! Refreshing the> page brings things back to normal. I have used the same styleswitcher
> script on my personal site and everything's fine... any ideas?I know my eyes are old and tired, but I just don't see any way totrigger any styleswitcher.--"Love your neighbor as yourself."   Mark 12:31 NIV
  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409Felix Miata  ***  http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/auth**The discussion list for  
http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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RE: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Jon Gunderson]

There is also the Mozilla/Firefox accessibility extension that
provides features for testing web resources for functional
accessibility, including headers, links, form labels, frame
labels, and table headers.  Styling features to disable layout
tables, disabling CSS styling and high contrast tyle sheet. 
Accessing the ALT text for images.

http://cita.disability.uiuc.edu/software/mozilla/

Jon


 Original message 
>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 10:05:20 -0500
>From: "Berman, Pamela E" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
>Subject: RE: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???  
>To: 
>
>
>There is also Fire Vox, a free screen reader extension created by
>Charles L. Chen for Firefox. It allows you to navigate from
the headings
>list, links list, etc. which can give you a better
understanding for how
>some screen readers operate apart from just reading the screen.
>https://webspace.utexas.edu/chencl1/clc-4-tts/index.html
>
>
>Also, Kurzweil 3000 http://www.kurzweiledu.com/products.asp
is becoming
>popular among users with cognitive and learning disabilities.
>
>
>Pam Berman
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike at 
>> Green-Beast.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 9:19 AM
>> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
>> Subject: Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???
>> 
>> Hello Michael,
>> 
>> Try the Opera 8.5 browser [1]. Sounds very much like the 
>> stand-alone products and it's very simple and convenient to 
>> use. Great test tool.
>> 
>>  [1] http://www.opera.com/
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> Mike Cherim
>> http://green-beast.com/
>> http://accessites.org/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Michael Yeaney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 8:52 AM
>> Subject: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???
>> 
>> 
>> Are there any recommendations for screen readers to test 
>> with  I'd like
>> to at least 'preview' what our site(s) sound like to such a
user.
>> 
>> Thanx...
>> Mike
>> 
>> **
>> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>> 
>>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
>> **
>> 
>> 
>**
>The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
>**
>


Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
Director of IT Accessibility Services
Campus Information Technologies and Educational Services (CITES)
and 
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Disability Resources and Education Services (DRES)

Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248
Cell: (217) 714-6313

E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

WWW: http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/
WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/


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[WSG] Quick Site Check Please

[Joseph R. B. Taylor]

Greetings my friends,

I'm hoping you Mac and Linux folks would be so kind as to take a look at 
this site on your system's browsers.


It validates and renders correctly on FF 1.5, Opera 8.5 and IE 6.0.  The 
only issue I discovered so far is a layout break when I zoom the text to 
unbelievable sizes in FF.


The URL is: http://cmcaor.sitesbyjoe.com

A screenshot for reference is located at: 
http://cmcaor.sitesbyjoe.com/images/draft08.gif


Thank you so much!
--
Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] Quick Site Check Please

[Joshua Street]

On 3/1/06, Joseph R. B. Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It validates and renders correctly on FF 1.5, Opera 8.5 and IE 6.0.  The
> only issue I discovered so far is a layout break when I zoom the text to
> unbelievable sizes in FF.

"Unbelievable sizes" here being one step DOWN (decreasing font size)
in Firefox1.5/Win, or two steps down in IE. I wouldn't discount any of
the offered sizes in IE as "unbelievable", even IF they're smaller
(and the trend on this list is to advocate larger/unchanged default
font sizes).

That aside, nice design, looks fine in FF/Lin. I'd check Safari for
you but someone stole my Mac's mouse (apparently we have a
pest-deficiency in the office!)...

Josh
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Re: [WSG] Quick Site Check Please

[Joseph R. B. Taylor]

Office rats steal mice...

My god, I never tried REDUCING the font size during testing!

I tried adding some items to the #mainCol (the main column) such as 
min-width, width, block display, but it still breaks on the size 
reduction.  Any ideas would be swell!


http://cmcaor.sitesbyjoe.com/

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Joshua Street wrote:

On 3/1/06, Joseph R. B. Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


It validates and renders correctly on FF 1.5, Opera 8.5 and IE 6.0.  The
only issue I discovered so far is a layout break when I zoom the text to
unbelievable sizes in FF.



"Unbelievable sizes" here being one step DOWN (decreasing font size)
in Firefox1.5/Win, or two steps down in IE. I wouldn't discount any of
the offered sizes in IE as "unbelievable", even IF they're smaller
(and the trend on this list is to advocate larger/unchanged default
font sizes).

That aside, nice design, looks fine in FF/Lin. I'd check Safari for
you but someone stole my Mac's mouse (apparently we have a
pest-deficiency in the office!)...

Josh
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[WSG] RE: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

[Hill, Tim]

>  Back to Top

Is there an issue with using this for screenreaders?
Wouldn't they activate this link and nothing would happen?
Does this work effectively across browsers to scroll the page to the top
though? I've found it works on firefox, ie, opera on PC (winXP).

Thanks,



On 27/02/06, Lachlan Hunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Paul Novitski wrote:
> > At 05:35 AM 2/27/2006, Curby wrote:
> >> What is the recommended way for linking back to the top of the
page? I
> >> can't link to the id of my H1 because of my CSS.
> >
> > Whoa.  Stop right there.  How can CSS stop you from linking to an h1
> > that's got an id?
>
> It depends where the H1 is positioned.  If it's not at the top, the
page
> won't be scrolled to the top.
>
> --
> Lachlan Hunt
> http://lachy.id.au/
>
> **
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>
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Tim Hill
CA
Designer
tel: +612 9937 0792
fax: +612 9937 0546
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [WSG] Do you still support 4.0 browsers?

[Tom Worthington]

On 2/27/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

... would you try and support 4.0 browsers?


Yes and No. You can get a long way by using a subset of XHTML 1.0 Strict 
and CSS. This will look pretty on modern browsers and still be usable on 
old browsers .


If a commercial customer complains it doesn't look exactly the same on old 
browsers just tell them this is the wireless version for high net worth 
individuals with PDAs. If a public sector customer complains, tell them it 
is the accessible version required by law for disabled people. If a 
politician complains, tell them it is the version for people in 
disadvantaged rural areas (aka: marginal electorates).  ;-)




Tom Worthington FACS HLM [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ph: 0419 496150
Director, Tomw Communications Pty LtdABN: 17 088 714 309
PO Box 13, Belconnen ACT 2617http://www.tomw.net.au/
Director, ACS Communications Tech Board   http://www.acs.org.au/ctb/
Visiting Fellow, ANU  Blog: http://www.tomw.net.au/blog/atom.xml  


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Re: [WSG] Quick Site Check Please

[Bryan Brake]

Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:

Office rats steal mice...

My god, I never tried REDUCING the font size during testing!

I tried adding some items to the #mainCol (the main column) such as 
min-width, width, block display, but it still breaks on the size 
reduction.  Any ideas would be swell!


http://cmcaor.sitesbyjoe.com/


With FF 1.5.0.1/OpenBSD, the menu is pushed to the 
center of the page, the "This is the Main" is 
between the menu and the headlines section, and 
the "heading that will appear on each page" and 
the content underneath is pushed below your 
whitehouse advert.  It's funny, because my FF 
1.5.0.1 on windows doesn't do that, and it looks fine.


Don't worry about the OpenBSD version, .1% of 
users will visit your page with that config.


Bryan
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Re: [WSG] Quick Site Check Please

[Susanne Jäger]

Joseph R. B. Taylor schrieb, am 01.03.06 00:12:

I tried adding some items to the #mainCol (the main column) such as 
min-width, width, block display, but it still breaks on the size 
reduction.  Any ideas would be swell!


http://cmcaor.sitesbyjoe.com/


adding clear: left; to #leftCol helps. Without this #leftCol respects 
the float of the #logoBox with small font sizes.


Susanne

--
http://sujag.de - Webentwicklung und -beratung
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Lottumstr. 22, 10119 Berlin, Tel: 030 - 440 483 47
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Re: [WSG] RE: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

[Paul Novitski]

At 03:34 PM 2/28/2006, Hill, Tim wrote:

>  Back to Top

Is there an issue with using this for screenreaders?
Wouldn't they activate this link and nothing would happen?
Does this work effectively across browsers to scroll the page to the top
though? I've found it works on firefox, ie, opera on PC (winXP).



Wouldn't activating the link in a screen-reader simply move the 
cursor (reading point) from the link to the beginning of the page?


Curiously,
Paul 


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Re: [WSG] Linking to top of page

[Paul Novitski]

At 03:34 PM 2/28/2006, Hill, Tim wrote:

>  Back to Top

Is there an issue with using this for screenreaders?
Wouldn't they activate this link and nothing would happen?
Does this work effectively across browsers to scroll the page to the top
though? I've found it works on firefox, ie, opera on PC (winXP).



Wouldn't activating the link in a screen-reader simply move the 
cursor (reading point) from the link to the beginning of the page?


Curiously,
Paul 


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Re: [WSG] Quick Site Check Please

[piñon jorge]

Mac designer here... I looked at it with FF 1.5 and Safari, and even  
Camino and they break the same.


On smaller font sizes (14pt) as was mentioned, but I also see a  
problem with larger font sizes when any of the nav elements text  
breaks to a second line (i.e. Realtor® Directory). Your s don't  
seem to expand along with the contained  elements.


I didn't have time to look through the CSS to see why, but maybe  
there's a height property added which shouldn't be?


I'm curious to see if this is happening to anyone on a PC.


Jorge


On Feb 28, 2006, at 5:12 PM, Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:


Office rats steal mice...

My god, I never tried REDUCING the font size during testing!

I tried adding some items to the #mainCol (the main column) such as  
min-width, width, block display, but it still breaks on the size  
reduction.  Any ideas would be swell!


http://cmcaor.sitesbyjoe.com/

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Joshua Street wrote:

On 3/1/06, Joseph R. B. Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It validates and renders correctly on FF 1.5, Opera 8.5 and IE  
6.0.  The
only issue I discovered so far is a layout break when I zoom the  
text to

unbelievable sizes in FF.

"Unbelievable sizes" here being one step DOWN (decreasing font size)
in Firefox1.5/Win, or two steps down in IE. I wouldn't discount  
any of

the offered sizes in IE as "unbelievable", even IF they're smaller
(and the trend on this list is to advocate larger/unchanged default
font sizes).
That aside, nice design, looks fine in FF/Lin. I'd check Safari for
you but someone stole my Mac's mouse (apparently we have a
pest-deficiency in the office!)...
Josh
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Re: [WSG] RE: digest for wsg@webstandardsgroup.org

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Paul Novitski wrote:

Wouldn't activating the link in a screen-reader simply move the cursor 
(reading point) from the link to the beginning of the page?


It's been a while since I've sat down with a screen reader, but from my 
limited experience with JAWS the link would be announced as a "same page 
link" (or similar) and activating it would indeed move the 
cursor/caret/focus to the top, as expected.


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
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[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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Re: [WSG] Quick Site Check Please

[Joseph R. B. Taylor]

Good call Susanne!

Adding the float clear to the left column fixed the text size column 
break issue!


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Susanne Jäger wrote:

Joseph R. B. Taylor schrieb, am 01.03.06 00:12:

I tried adding some items to the #mainCol (the main column) such as 
min-width, width, block display, but it still breaks on the size 
reduction.  Any ideas would be swell!


http://cmcaor.sitesbyjoe.com/



adding clear: left; to #leftCol helps. Without this #leftCol respects 
the float of the #logoBox with small font sizes.


Susanne


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Re: [WSG] Quick Site Check Please

[Joseph R. B. Taylor]

Same thing is happening on the PC.

I have my nav text set to 1.0em.

I have the height of each li set to 1.75em.

I wrongly assumed that the li would expand along with the text since 
they both used ems for sizing...


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

piñon jorge wrote:
Mac designer here... I looked at it with FF 1.5 and Safari, and even  
Camino and they break the same.


On smaller font sizes (14pt) as was mentioned, but I also see a  problem 
with larger font sizes when any of the nav elements text  breaks to a 
second line (i.e. Realtor® Directory). Your s don't  seem to expand 
along with the contained  elements.


I didn't have time to look through the CSS to see why, but maybe  
there's a height property added which shouldn't be?


I'm curious to see if this is happening to anyone on a PC.


Jorge


On Feb 28, 2006, at 5:12 PM, Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:


Office rats steal mice...

My god, I never tried REDUCING the font size during testing!

I tried adding some items to the #mainCol (the main column) such as  
min-width, width, block display, but it still breaks on the size  
reduction.  Any ideas would be swell!


http://cmcaor.sitesbyjoe.com/

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Joshua Street wrote:


On 3/1/06, Joseph R. B. Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

It validates and renders correctly on FF 1.5, Opera 8.5 and IE  
6.0.  The
only issue I discovered so far is a layout break when I zoom the  
text to

unbelievable sizes in FF.


"Unbelievable sizes" here being one step DOWN (decreasing font size)
in Firefox1.5/Win, or two steps down in IE. I wouldn't discount  any of
the offered sizes in IE as "unbelievable", even IF they're smaller
(and the trend on this list is to advocate larger/unchanged default
font sizes).
That aside, nice design, looks fine in FF/Lin. I'd check Safari for
you but someone stole my Mac's mouse (apparently we have a
pest-deficiency in the office!)...
Josh
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Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Michael Yeaney wrote:
Are there any recommendations for screen readers to test with  I'd 
like to at least 'preview' what our site(s) sound like to such a user.


It's probably worth mentioning that unless you invest a considerable 
amount of time becoming familiar with a screen reader, and use it just 
as a *real* screen reader user uses it, any testing may lead you to the 
wrong type of conclusion, or worse tempt you to "optimise" your pages to 
please a specific reader (akin to coding to a specific browser).


An amusing anecdote I usually recount: a well intentioned, but rather 
clueless colleague of mine once sat down to test her site with JAWS. A 
few days later she suggested to me that it may be worth splitting up all 
her pages into really short, bite-size pages with "next" links, as she 
was appalled at the fact that, once she loaded a page, JAWS would take 
almost a minute to read the whole page top to bottom. I had to point out 
that, under normal circumstances, users of screen readers will not just 
load a page, sit back, and listen to the entire thing in one go...that 
the use of screen readers is an interactive process and that they'd 
employ various techniques like getting an overview of structure 
(headings list etc), jump between paragraphs, backtrack, 
increase/decrease reading speed, and so forth. Moral of the story: had I 
not explained this to her, she would have (with the best intentions, of 
course) completely ripped her site apart in an effort to make it "more 
accessible". An extreme example, but worth keeping in mind...


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
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Re: [WSG] Quick Site Check Please

[piñon jorge]

Remove the height property altogether. There's no need for it. Just  
pad the  element and the  will expand.
Also, there's extra, unnecessary CSS declarations in all the   
pseudo-elements. Styling the  element by itself applies to all the  
pseudos as well so there's no need to repeat the same declarations.  
Make sense?



On Feb 28, 2006, at 6:59 PM, Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:


Same thing is happening on the PC.

I have my nav text set to 1.0em.

I have the height of each li set to 1.75em.

I wrongly assumed that the li would expand along with the text  
since they both used ems for sizing...


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

piñon jorge wrote:
Mac designer here... I looked at it with FF 1.5 and Safari, and  
even  Camino and they break the same.
On smaller font sizes (14pt) as was mentioned, but I also see a   
problem with larger font sizes when any of the nav elements text   
breaks to a second line (i.e. Realtor® Directory). Your s  
don't  seem to expand along with the contained  elements.
I didn't have time to look through the CSS to see why, but maybe   
there's a height property added which shouldn't be?

I'm curious to see if this is happening to anyone on a PC.
Jorge
On Feb 28, 2006, at 5:12 PM, Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:

Office rats steal mice...

My god, I never tried REDUCING the font size during testing!

I tried adding some items to the #mainCol (the main column) such  
as  min-width, width, block display, but it still breaks on the  
size  reduction.  Any ideas would be swell!


http://cmcaor.sitesbyjoe.com/

Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Joshua Street wrote:


On 3/1/06, Joseph R. B. Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

It validates and renders correctly on FF 1.5, Opera 8.5 and IE   
6.0.  The
only issue I discovered so far is a layout break when I zoom  
the  text to

unbelievable sizes in FF.


"Unbelievable sizes" here being one step DOWN (decreasing font  
size)
in Firefox1.5/Win, or two steps down in IE. I wouldn't discount   
any of

the offered sizes in IE as "unbelievable", even IF they're smaller
(and the trend on this list is to advocate larger/unchanged default
font sizes).
That aside, nice design, looks fine in FF/Lin. I'd check Safari for
you but someone stole my Mac's mouse (apparently we have a
pest-deficiency in the office!)...
Josh
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Re: [WSG] Quick Site Check Please

[nic stage]

On 2/28/06, Joseph R. B. Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Same thing is happening on the PC.I have my nav text set to 1.0em.I have the height of each li set to 1.75em.I wrongly assumed that the li would expand along with the text sincethey both used ems for sizing...
i'm a bit of a newb here, but possibly using min-height on the s would fix the problem?  in  FF1.5 on windows, when the text size is increased by 3 or more notches, the "logoBox" and "flash" divs are getting pushed down  and not aligning with the light blue stripe in the background (the background color shows through).  
really nice visual design overall.  maybe someday i'll be that good.  :)

Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Mark Harris]

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

It's probably worth mentioning that unless you invest a considerable 
amount of time becoming familiar with a screen reader, and use it just 
as a *real* screen reader user uses it, any testing may lead you to the 
wrong type of conclusion, or worse tempt you to "optimise" your pages to 
please a specific reader (akin to coding to a specific browser).




Exactly. That's why I recommend to clients that they farm out this sort 
of testing to specialist houses who employ blind, deaf, palsied and 
otherwise 'not ordinary' users who are familiar with their assistive 
technologies. To be fair, I usually have a look with Fangs first to spot 
any egregious errors, but quality testing can only come from one 
familiar with the tools.


At a Web Standards Group meeting in Wellington last year, Jonathan Mosen 
used his screen reader to show developers what blind users were 'seeing' 
on their pages. It ripped through the pages almost too fast for most of 
the audience to hear but they were stunned when Jonathan said he'd 
slowed it down to about 1/3 normal speed for the demonstration!


cheers

Mark
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[WSG] IE Patent stupidity meets... us.

[Joshua Street]

http://news.com.com/2100-1032_3-6044418.html?part=rss&tag=6044418&subj=news
just popped up in my feed reader. At first glance I wasn't too
concerned, but took a look at the linked MSDN page (
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/activating_activex.asp
) for next time I need to use Flash, or whatever.

Then I read this:

When a control is inactive, the following effects occur.

* Dynamic HTML (DHTML) events related to user interaction, such as
onblur and onclick, are blocked. Appendix A lists the DHTML events
that are blocked when a control is inactive.


The page seems REALLY unclear to me personally in terms of what
exactly it means for event handlers ASIDE from object/applet/embed
content if those exist on a page and aren't "active", whatever the
hell that's meant to mean.

Slightly peeved that Microsoft's patent violation ages ago means that
we [may] now have to make changes en-mass to keep websites
functioning, and extend browser discrepancies in implementations of
certain features even further than at present... but maybe I've just
completely misunderstood this. Anyone?
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Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Ben Buchanan]

> At a Web Standards Group meeting in Wellington last year, Jonathan Mosen
> used his screen reader to show developers what blind users were 'seeing'
> on their pages. It ripped through the pages almost too fast for most of
> the audience to hear but they were stunned when Jonathan said he'd
> slowed it down to about 1/3 normal speed for the demonstration!

The high speed is a bit surprising, isn't it :) I was also amazed to
watch a screen zoom user blasting through pages - I'm a sloth in
comparison.

He would rocket through navigation and make decisions on the next
click almost before I'd been able to read what he was up to, then on
to the next page... admittedly he was familiar with the overall site,
but even so it was kind of impressive.

I think people have a mental image of assistive tech users dragging
through sites at a painfully slow pace, but that hasn't been the
reality that I've seen (not that I have observed a huge number of
assistive tech users or anything, though).

Ben

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--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Mark Harris wrote:

 but quality testing can only come from one
familiar with the tools.


If you allow me to coin a phrase: "quality testing can only come from 
quality testers" (where, in case it doesn't translate too well from UK 
parlance, the second "quality" there is used as an adjective, as in 
"very good testers")


Right, definitely need some sleep now.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
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Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Mark Harris]

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

Mark Harris wrote:

 but quality testing can only come from one
familiar with the tools.


If you allow me to coin a phrase: "quality testing can only come from 
quality testers" (where, in case it doesn't translate too well from UK 
parlance, the second "quality" there is used as an adjective, as in 
"very good testers")


Good phrase, and it's okay - I'm from NZ where we do still speak English ;-)

mark
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