Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

[Brett Patterson]

EBS Admin, from what I read it looked like it was a motto, not some
keywords.

--
Brett P.



On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:29, EBS Admin
wrote:

>  Hi Darren,
>
> Maybe if you read what I wrote properly you would see that the
> H1 surrounding the logo has different key words in it depending on the page.
> I use text Site name – keywords as my logo and style it with CSS
> and therefore each one is unique, semantic and great for SEO
>
>
>  --
>
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Darren Lovelock
> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 16:33
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
>
>
> To have the logo as a H1 on every page will most likely trigger spam
> filters in the search engines as you are duplicating the heading throughout
> the website, they should always be unique. Anyone advising to do this to
> boost your page's keyword relevancy simply doesn't know what they are
> talking about.
>
>
>
> I cant think of a single reason why you would wrap a H1 around a logo as
> there is no advantage to you, search engines or your visitors. Maybe if you
> had a business directory where each listing had its own logo and alt text of
> the company name then it could work there but not if there was already an H1
> on the page.
>
>
>
> The only case that you could possibly use two H1s on a page is if you had a
> page containing two entirely different topics. But then again wouldn't you
> just put this content on two separate pages? If your sites theme is to
> write about lots of different content e.g. a general blog, then it should
> have a main H1 and each topic be summarised using H2's and then include a
> link to their own individual pages.
>
>
>
> Why is the topic starter looking for reasons for why they shouldn't do it,
> when they should be asking themselves what is their reason for using the H1
> this way in the first place?
>
>
>
> Did they see it on some 'SEO's website and think 'they must know what they
> are doing so I'll copy them'? LOL
>
>
>
> Maybe they should listen to the SEO expert they've already spoken to...
>
>
>
> I would have thought it's pretty obvious that you shouldn't do it ;)
>
>
>
> Darren Lovelock
>
> Munky Online Web Design
>
> http://www.munkyonline.co.uk
>
> T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893
>
>
>  --
>
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *EBS Admin
> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 15:52
>
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
> The way to wrap the H1 for the logo is not to wrap it around an image, the
> fist H1 should be text with keywords for the page that is being represented
> in a grammatical format, with clever use of CSS these can be styled up to
> look like graphic logos but degrade for accessibility and provide a tool to
> get the H1 as the first element in a page whilst complementing the
> semantics, accessibility and seo requirements.
>
>
>  --
>
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *ja...@flexewebs.com
> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 15:45
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
> Yes but my argument against putting the H1 around the logo is that the logo
> is present on all pages and typically each site will be optimised for it's
> brand name (e.g. Flexewebs) so no value in highlighting that.
>
> I would potentially agree with you if you were arguing for putting H1
> around other content within the page, but certainly not the logo.
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
>  --
>
> *From: *"EBS Admin" 
>
> *Date: *Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:36:00 +0100
>
> *To: *
>
> *Subject: *RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
>
>
> Okay so the justify, the first H1 is the title of a page which is to be
> shown at the top of a page commonly used as the logo. The next h1 will be
> the subject title i.e. Welcome to... so semantically this would require more
> the 1 H1.
>
>
>
> For accessibility which styles switched off it clearly breaks up the pages,
> and has a similar effect for screen readers.
>
>
>
> Hope this makes it a little clearer.
>
>
>  --
>
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Grant
> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 15:25
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
> EBS Admin - Matt doesn't say to use multiple H1s on the page, but says that
> you will not get penalised for using them (within reason) on a given page.
>
> Every site I ever worked on I had used only one H1 on and it still enjoys
> being on first page of Google.
>
> My formula, hence, does not only say Google or only Accessibility, but all
> of the points I mentioned.
>
> You say it is semantic to use more than one H1, but don't actually

Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?

[Brett Patterson]

Seems to me that Providers of Miniature Clips for Business is more of a tag
line and not really appropriate to put in an h1 heading.

--
Brett P.



On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 11:10, EBS Admin
wrote:

>  No but you can wrap MiniClip - Providers of Miniature Clips for Business.
>
>  --
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Grant
> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 16:00
>
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>
> That's only relevant if your site has a keyword in the logo (e.g. Free
> Online Games), where each of the words is a form of a keyword, while if your
> site is called MiniClip, there is not much point in wrapping H1 around it.
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:52 PM, EBS Admin <
> ad...@essentialebizsolutions.net> wrote:
>
>>  The way to wrap the H1 for the logo is not to wrap it around an image,
>> the fist H1 should be text with keywords for the page that is being
>> represented in a grammatical format, with clever use of CSS these can be
>> styled up to look like graphic logos but degrade for accessibility and
>> provide a tool to get the H1 as the first element in a page whilst
>> complementing the semantics, accessibility and seo requirements.
>>
>>  --
>> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
>> *On Behalf Of *ja...@flexewebs.com
>> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 15:45
>> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>>
>>  Yes but my argument against putting the H1 around the logo is that the
>> logo is present on all pages and typically each site will be optimised for
>> it's brand name (e.g. Flexewebs) so no value in highlighting that.
>>
>> I would potentially agree with you if you were arguing for putting H1
>> around other content within the page, but certainly not the logo.
>>
>> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
>> --
>> *From: *"EBS Admin" 
>> *Date: *Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:36:00 +0100
>> *To: *
>> *Subject: *RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>>
>> Okay so the justify, the first H1 is the title of a page which is to be
>> shown at the top of a page commonly used as the logo. The next h1 will be
>> the subject title i.e. Welcome to... so semantically this would require more
>> the 1 H1.
>>
>> For accessibility which styles switched off it clearly breaks up the
>> pages, and has a similar effect for screen readers.
>>
>> Hope this makes it a little clearer.
>>
>>  --
>> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
>> *On Behalf Of *Jason Grant
>> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 15:25
>> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
>>
>> EBS Admin - Matt doesn't say to use multiple H1s on the page, but says
>> that you will not get penalised for using them (within reason) on a given
>> page.  Every site I ever worked on I had used only one H1 on and it still
>> enjoys being on first page of Google.
>> My formula, hence, does not only say Google or only Accessibility, but all
>> of the points I mentioned.
>> You say it is semantic to use more than one H1, but don't actually justify
>> your reasoning behind it.
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:02 PM, EBS Admin <
>> ad...@essentialebizsolutions.net> wrote:
>>
>>>  Jason,
>>> Thats clearly not the case, if you read the WIA guidlines then is
>>> advocates the use of multiple H1's, from an semantic point of view they make
>>> sense and in terms of SEO the make sense because every site we've built uses
>>> mutiple H1's and they enjoy page 1 results on Google.
>>>
>>> The video that Tim has just sent in is by Google and they say to use
>>> multiple H1's!
>>>
>>>  --
>>> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
>>> *On Behalf Of *Jason Grant
>>> *Sent:* 16 October 2009 14:48
>>> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG
>>> Digest)
>>>
>>> Tim
>>> To keep it really simple:
>>>
>>> Spec + SEO + Good IA + Semantics + Accessibility + Common sense == One H1
>>> per page
>>>
>>> Hope this makes sense?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Tim White wrote:
>>>
 OK, straight from Google Webmaster Central:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VM&feature=channel
  (video
 from March 2009)

 Tim

  On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Jason Grant wrote:

>  Tim,
> Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must.
>
> However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we
> give it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best
> practices as well as general semantics and IA best practices.
>
> So the spec does not tell you to use on

[WSG] What is a Perl, NFA and Java Usenet group?

[Brett Patterson]

Hi all! Does anyone know a good Usenet group that deals with Perl, NFAs and
Java? I need one that deals with all three together, and would like to have
more specific groups that deal with each one in particular, as well.

Please reply off-list, as this is off-topic from the group.

Regards,

--
Brett P.


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Re: [WSG] Re WSG Digest

[Brett Patterson]

Oh, that is a good point! Let's do!!!

--
Brett P.



On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 1:13 PM, Tony McNulty  wrote:

> Just for that I think we should keep him on!
>
> ------
> *From*: Brett Patterson
> *Date*: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 12:35:16 -0400
> *To*: 
> *Subject*: Re: [WSG] Re WSG Digest
> Please remove this user from the group ASAP!
>
> --
> Brett P.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Daniel Rowan <
> danielpaulro...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Stop emailling me you fucktards i unsubscribed leave me alone!
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 3:40 PM, TapirDesigns 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I am currently away until 5th August but will get back to you as soon as
>>> possible on my return.
>>>
>>>
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>>
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Re: [WSG] Re WSG Digest

[Brett Patterson]

Please remove this user from the group ASAP!

--
Brett P.



On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 11:49 AM, Daniel Rowan <
danielpaulro...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Stop emailling me you fucktards i unsubscribed leave me alone!
>
> On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 3:40 PM, TapirDesigns 
> wrote:
>
>> I am currently away until 5th August but will get back to you as soon as
>> possible on my return.
>>
>>
>> ***
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>
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Re: [WSG] [Spam] :changing font sizes from within a page.

[Brett Patterson]

I agree with James. Although, I find the best possible, all-around solution
is to use all of the above! If the user does not have JavaScript/cookies
enabled, then the user will use their browser, else they cannot view the
text in large size. If the user does have JavaScript/cookies enabled, then
the user can use that method to enlarge font size, whether they know or do
not know how to use the browser to enlarge font size.

This gives all opportunities to the user for any circumstance they may be
in, and allows you to do some quick development, without much worry!

--
Brett P.


On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 9:38 AM, James Leslie
wrote:

>  I would be grateful if someone could tell me what is the current best
> practice for letting users change the font-size (e.g., by clicking on three
> 'a's of different sizes to make different css files be used) on the web
> site.  Is it still a good idea, or do we go for the approach of using the
> browser to do it?  Any and all helpful suggestions gratefully appreciated.
>
>  
>
> Comes down to the 'give a man a fish/teach a man to fish' principle for me.
> If you explain to the user how to use their browser settings to change the
> text size then they can use that on any site.  If you use the 3 A's it only
> holds up for your site (and breaks if cookies/JavaScript are turned off)
>
> James
>
>
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Re: [WSG] JavaScript Language Clarifying within HTML

[Brett Patterson]

Thank you!

--
Brett P.


On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 8:48 AM, David Dixon  wrote:

>  The language attribute was deprecated in html 4, so I wouldn't advise
> using it.
>
> see: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.1
>
> Thanks,
>
> David
>
>
> On 14/7/09 13:23, Brett Patterson wrote:
>
> I am not sure about the most recent standards regarding the "language"
> attribute of the SCRIPT tag within an HTML page, so I would like to know if
> it is still recommended to use the "language" attribute within the SCRIPT
> tag?
>
> And what version, if it is recommended to use that attribute, would one
> specify to have the most in both backwards and forwards compatibility?
>
> --
> Brett P.
>
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[WSG] JavaScript Language Clarifying within HTML

[Brett Patterson]

I am not sure about the most recent standards regarding the "language"
attribute of the SCRIPT tag within an HTML page, so I would like to know if
it is still recommended to use the "language" attribute within the SCRIPT
tag?

And what version, if it is recommended to use that attribute, would one
specify to have the most in both backwards and forwards compatibility?

--
Brett P.


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Re: [WSG] Image mapping standards question

[Brett Patterson]

I meant that rather than using image mapping for hyperlinks, you could use
it to (sort of) point out a particular part of an image, as if you wanted to
show someone who can see which person in a picture is you if they hover
their mouse over that image map. And you can use it for someone who is
blind, by showing them sections in a picture, as if there are rapids in one
part of a picture and your canoe in another.

I mean image maps being used to show particular sections in a picture, give
it a title and alt attribute, and allow people to see what is what in the
picture by holding their mouse over parts in a picture.

Some picture sites, like photobucket and others allow users to "tag" certain
parts of a picture to allow users to see who is who in a picture. I was
wondering if it would be okay to do the same thing with using image maps and
not using them as links.

--
Brett P.


On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 5:54 AM,  wrote:

>  Judging by the lack of responses, I am probably not the only one who
> didn't understand your question.
> Particularly, you seem to be using the term 'image mapping' to mean
> something other than using an image-map element, but I'm not aware of a
> standard technique for this.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
>  --
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Brett Patterson
> *Sent:* 01 June 2009 15:35
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* [WSG] Image mapping standards question
>
> It has recently come to my attention the struggles of an end-user when
> viewing images for any user. I have seen sites such as Facebook, MySpace,
> and other sites where pictures are hosted use roll-overs for recognizing
> certain parts of an image. I realize that this can be done using image maps
> as well as when using image mapping, I can add alternative text not only to
> the img tag itself, but the maps as well to show and describe certain
> features I feel are important. Are there recommendations for or against this
> approach?
>
> --
> Brett P.
>
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[WSG] Image mapping standards question

[Brett Patterson]

It has recently come to my attention the struggles of an end-user when
viewing images for any user. I have seen sites such as Facebook, MySpace,
and other sites where pictures are hosted use roll-overs for recognizing
certain parts of an image. I realize that this can be done using image maps
as well as when using image mapping, I can add alternative text not only to
the img tag itself, but the maps as well to show and describe certain
features I feel are important. Are there recommendations for or against this
approach?

--
Brett P.


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Re: [WSG] Background image not visible in ie

[Brett Patterson]

Have you used the CSS: background-position: center center;   ?

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Ben Dodson  wrote:

> It does of course require JavaScript which isn't strictly necessary as you
> can get the same effect with just CSS (especially for the purposes of the
> example given initially).
> With regards to background image positioning, I'm fairly sure there is no
> way to stop it going to position (0,0) as that's how the Microsoft Filter
> works.
>
> Ben
>
> ---
> *e:* b...@bendodson.com
> *w:* http://bendodson.com/
>
> Feeling social?  Connect with me on various social networks at
> http://social.bendodson.com/ - You might also want to follow me on Twitter
> at http://twitter.com/bendodson
>
>
>
>
> On 29 Apr 2009, at 13:46, James Leslie wrote:
>
>
> The guys over at unit interactive also have a help script to help fix the
> issues with transparent PNG images in IE6.
>
> http://labs.unitinteractive.com/unitpngfix.php
>
>
>
>  I highly recommend this script very handy and concise. The one problem
> I have noticed with it is that it doesn't respect background position on
> background images - everything goes to (0,0) . If this is ok, it is a great
> solution and can of course be applied via a conditional comment meaning no
> superfluous code for 'decent' browsers.
>
>
> James
>
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Re: [WSG] Box model in IE7

[Brett Patterson]

Well, good deal then. :)

--
Brett P.


On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 10:08 AM, Rimantas Liubertas wrote:

> > Getting back on subject, I do not think the box model has been fixed in
> IE7,
> > but I do not know for sure. You might try adding margin for separation
> with
> > containing div tags in browsers.
>
> Once again: box model was fixed in IE6, given your page has proper doctype
> (and
> nothing above it).
>
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb250395.aspx#cssenhancements_topic3
>
> Regards,
> Rimantas
> --
> http://rimantas.com/
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Box model in IE7

[Brett Patterson]

Getting back on subject, I do not think the box model has been fixed in IE7,
but I do not know for sure. You might try adding margin for separation with
containing div tags in browsers.

--
Brett P.


Is the box model in IE7 still messed up? I thought they sorted it?
>
> I am floating a div to the right with a width of 50%. The div to the left
> has a right margin of 50%. I've put a 1px solid border on both of them. In
> IE7 there is a gap between them but in Firefox they are right against each
> other.
>
> Go figure?
>


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Re: [WSG] Box model in IE7

[Brett Patterson]

Forgot to mention that you do set specific formatting on text afterwards, as
you mentioned, Janice. And I might add that that is a good point Christian,
it does seem a little silly!

--
Brett P.


On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:39 PM, Brett Patterson <
inspiron.patters...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, according to the rules as I have read, Browser font-sizing takes
> precedence in certain circumstances...so, if the user's font-size is 14pt.
> then that means the body text font-size will be 62.5% of that. This goes in
> according to the rules of inheritance...I have never actually seen anyone
> set font-size in html, let alone at 62.5% or 74%. But I have, however, seen
> it at body at 100%.
>
> --
> Brett P.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Jason Grant  wrote:
>
>> We were told in the past by a massive client that for accessibility
>> purposes font sizes needed to be set to 74% as a minimum as the basic
>> reading size below which it's a straign on the eyes.
>>
>> I personally don't mess with browser defaults and don't tend to use
>> resets, but for minimal purposes only.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:12 AM, Brett Patterson <
>> inspiron.patters...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I have always been told to use something along the lines of either body {
>>> font-size: 100%; /* a fix for internet explorer */ } because of the way IE
>>> reads/sizes font. Starting out with html at only 62.5% font-sizing would
>>> completely mess up IE and the font in the browser would it not?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Brett P.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 7:56 PM, CK  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Would you elaborate on why the CSS rule invalidates the article? As it
>>>> appears the authors explanation is sound.
>>>>
>>>>  html {
>>>>>  font-size: 62.5%;
>>>>>}
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CK
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 23, 2009, at 11:28 AM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, Christopher Kennon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  S,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See this article from "Links for light Reading" scrolling down a bit
>>>>>> you'll
>>>>>> find a JS solution that may prove useful:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why Programmers Suck at CSS Design
>>>>>> <http://www.betaversion.org/~stefano/linotype/news/169/<http://www.betaversion.org/%7Estefano/linotype/news/169/>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  That article ceased to be credible as soon as I saw:
>>>>>
>>>>> "My suggestion for you is to do the following: start your CSS
>>>>>  stylesheet with
>>>>>
>>>>>html {
>>>>>  font-size: 62.5%;
>>>>>}
>>>>> "
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  On Apr 22, 2009, at 4:18 PM, Stevio wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Is the box model in IE7 still messed up? I thought they sorted it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>  It is fixed in standards mode, but I think it uses the broken model
>>>>>  in quirks mode.
>>>>>
>>>>>  I am floating a div to the right with a width of 50%. The div to the
>>>>>>> left
>>>>>>> has a right margin of 50%. I've put a 1px solid border on both of
>>>>>>> them. In
>>>>>>> IE7 there is a gap between them but in Firefox they are right against
>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>> other.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Go figure?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>  Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster <http://woodbine-gerrard.com>
>>>>>  ===
>>>>>  Author:
>>>>>  Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ***
>>>>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>&

Re: [WSG] Box model in IE7

[Brett Patterson]

Well, according to the rules as I have read, Browser font-sizing takes
precedence in certain circumstances...so, if the user's font-size is 14pt.
then that means the body text font-size will be 62.5% of that. This goes in
according to the rules of inheritance...I have never actually seen anyone
set font-size in html, let alone at 62.5% or 74%. But I have, however, seen
it at body at 100%.

--
Brett P.


On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Jason Grant  wrote:

> We were told in the past by a massive client that for accessibility
> purposes font sizes needed to be set to 74% as a minimum as the basic
> reading size below which it's a straign on the eyes.
>
> I personally don't mess with browser defaults and don't tend to use resets,
> but for minimal purposes only.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:12 AM, Brett Patterson <
> inspiron.patters...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I have always been told to use something along the lines of either body {
>> font-size: 100%; /* a fix for internet explorer */ } because of the way IE
>> reads/sizes font. Starting out with html at only 62.5% font-sizing would
>> completely mess up IE and the font in the browser would it not?
>>
>> --
>> Brett P.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 7:56 PM, CK  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Would you elaborate on why the CSS rule invalidates the article? As it
>>> appears the authors explanation is sound.
>>>
>>>  html {
>>>>  font-size: 62.5%;
>>>>}
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CK
>>>
>>>
>>> On Apr 23, 2009, at 11:28 AM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>  On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, Christopher Kennon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  S,
>>>>>
>>>>> See this article from "Links for light Reading" scrolling down a bit
>>>>> you'll
>>>>> find a JS solution that may prove useful:
>>>>>
>>>>> Why Programmers Suck at CSS Design
>>>>> <http://www.betaversion.org/~stefano/linotype/news/169/<http://www.betaversion.org/%7Estefano/linotype/news/169/>
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  That article ceased to be credible as soon as I saw:
>>>>
>>>> "My suggestion for you is to do the following: start your CSS
>>>>  stylesheet with
>>>>
>>>>html {
>>>>  font-size: 62.5%;
>>>>}
>>>> "
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On Apr 22, 2009, at 4:18 PM, Stevio wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  Is the box model in IE7 still messed up? I thought they sorted it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>  It is fixed in standards mode, but I think it uses the broken model
>>>>  in quirks mode.
>>>>
>>>>  I am floating a div to the right with a width of 50%. The div to the
>>>>>> left
>>>>>> has a right margin of 50%. I've put a 1px solid border on both of
>>>>>> them. In
>>>>>> IE7 there is a gap between them but in Firefox they are right against
>>>>>> each
>>>>>> other.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Go figure?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>  Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster <http://woodbine-gerrard.com>
>>>>  ===
>>>>  Author:
>>>>  Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ***
>>>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>>>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>>>> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
>>>> ***
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ***
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>>>
>>>
>>
>> ***
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>
>
>
>
> --
> Jason Grant BSc, MSc
> CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
> www.flexewebs.com
> ja...@flexewebs.com
> +44 (0)7748 591 770
> Company no.: 5587469
>
> www.flexewebs.com/semantix
> www.twitter.com/flexewebs
> www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs
>
>
> ***
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Re: [WSG] Box model in IE7

[Brett Patterson]

I have always been told to use something along the lines of either body {
font-size: 100%; /* a fix for internet explorer */ } because of the way IE
reads/sizes font. Starting out with html at only 62.5% font-sizing would
completely mess up IE and the font in the browser would it not?

--
Brett P.


On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 7:56 PM, CK  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Would you elaborate on why the CSS rule invalidates the article? As it
> appears the authors explanation is sound.
>
>  html {
>>  font-size: 62.5%;
>>}
>>
>
>
> CK
>
>
> On Apr 23, 2009, at 11:28 AM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
>
>  On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, Christopher Kennon wrote:
>>
>>  S,
>>>
>>> See this article from "Links for light Reading" scrolling down a bit
>>> you'll
>>> find a JS solution that may prove useful:
>>>
>>> Why Programmers Suck at CSS Design
>>> 
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>  That article ceased to be credible as soon as I saw:
>>
>> "My suggestion for you is to do the following: start your CSS
>>  stylesheet with
>>
>>html {
>>  font-size: 62.5%;
>>}
>> "
>>
>>
>>  On Apr 22, 2009, at 4:18 PM, Stevio wrote:
>>>
>>>  Is the box model in IE7 still messed up? I thought they sorted it?

>>>
>>  It is fixed in standards mode, but I think it uses the broken model
>>  in quirks mode.
>>
>>  I am floating a div to the right with a width of 50%. The div to the left
 has a right margin of 50%. I've put a 1px solid border on both of them.
 In
 IE7 there is a gap between them but in Firefox they are right against
 each
 other.

 Go figure?

>>>
>> --
>>  Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster 
>>  ===
>>  Author:
>>  Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
>>
>>
>> ***
>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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>>
>>
>
>
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[WSG] Possible layout problems with using this CSS code?

[Brett Patterson]

Would using:

* {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
border: 0;
}

before the body to zero out all margins, paddings and borders, cause any
accessibility problems or any problems one should be made aware of before
using it for layout?

--
Brett P.


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Re: [WSG] Re: Browser Backwards Compatibility -- How far back?

[Brett Patterson]

Okay, thank you all. I will use the Yahoo! Graded Browser Support matrix for
information.

--
Brett P.


On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 3:23 AM, Ted Drake  wrote:

>  The Yahoo! Graded Browser Support matrix is a good standard of what
> browsers are appropriately supported.
> http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/articles/gbs/
>
> You can point clients to this page for justifications. It is appropriate
> for general use web sites. If your users are disproportionally stuck behind
> outdated computers this will not work.
>
> Ted
>
>  --
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Sam Sherlock
> *Sent:* Friday, March 20, 2009 4:25 AM
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] Re: Browser Backwards Compatibility -- How far back?
>
> Old Mac Users are stuck I tried to a get a friends mac online and using
> Yahoo Mail (around the time a ymail dropped support of that browser) it had
> ie5 and nothing would work at all, no other options it was a second hand
> (supposedly cost effective machine) phazed into obselence.  I frequently see
> IE6 on win xp in my logs, I have been in net cafes that refuse to update ie
> to 7 on xp (they did not express why).  I am yearning for the day when IE6
> can be removed from the equation, but I find following a few simple
> guidelines much of the trauma can be alleviated (I have just tested a basic
> liquid grid in ie6 and all is seeming well).
>
> I say to clients that I support browsers currently supported by respect
> vendors + IE6 on xp / win2k (but when more advanced features are aimed for
> these may work or not on such horrid browsers - and if so to a lesser
> degree)  ~   Its been a while since I have seen win ie 5.x in a log of any
> of my sites
>
> The web is rapidly evolving, which make treeware pretty bad at keeping up.
>
>
> when at college 10+ years ago   my lecturer advised to avoid books - since
> anything printed will need revision by the time its printed (it was seen as
> an extreme view then ~ still like books myself but I understood his gist)
>
> Going too far back prevents much progress ~ clients usually appreciate that
>
>
> Verify everything you read by seeing what others have to say in
> 'blogsphere'.  There is discussion about the jQuery.com site not displaying
> correctly in IE7 currently the issue has not been identified as yet but the
> cause is thought to be a plugin/addon for the browsers. (thats something to
> be careful of when testing ~ if a client complains about display issues
> check what extensions to the browser are being used)
>
>
> @Sigurd - I am suprised to hear that Silverstripe administration supports
> IE6.  I have been meaning to checkout Silverstripe having heard great things
> about it and what I have seen is very impressive indeed
>
> - S
>
>
> 2009/3/20 MichaelMD 
>
>> On Sun, 2009-03-15 at 21:10 +1300, Sigurd Magnusson wrote:
>> > Most websites we build at SilverStripe have IE 6.0 as a minimum, and
>> > even then, we're unpatiently anticipating the time when we can drop IE
>> > 6.
>>
>> I still see quite a few people using IE5 Mac (probably OS9 users stuck
>> with that) in the server logs here and LOTS of IE6 ... so I think it
>> will be a while somehow...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ***
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>>
>
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[WSG] Browser Backwards Compatibility -- How far back?

[Brett Patterson]

Hi all,

I was just reading from a book that talked about some code that would not
work in Internet Explorer 3.0, but would in Internet Explorer 4.0 and later,
and Netscape Navigator 3.0 and later. This brought up a question that I
could not find direct and consistent answers while searching the
Internet...so, how far back would it be acceptable to design for, when it
comes to backwards browser compatibility? I have been told from some sites,
that Internet Explorer 5.0/later and Netscape Navigator 4.0/later, as well
as Firefox 1.5/later and Opera 6.0/later. Is this correct?

--
Brett P.


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Re: [WSG] Safari 4 and 3.2 Running Simultaneously

[Brett Patterson]

You might could try the custom installation when installing and then
creating and naming a different folder in your Program Files folder...name
it something different than the currently installed Safari browser's
folder...

--
Brett P.


On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Gregorio Espadas wrote:

> Hi folks... I want to install Safari 4 in Microsoft Windows for testing
> pourposes, but I don't want to dismiss Safari 3.2. I've been searching for a
> solution (installing Safari 4 without affect the current installation of
> Safari 3.2), but I didn't find anything.
>
> I find out that the Safari 4 installation updates the Webkit Framework, not
> only the browser itself... so, I guess installing in a different folder
> won't work.
>
> I'm aware that Safari 4 includes a User Agent changer, but I guess this
> tool is not for rendering, only for masquerade in order to use certain
> webapps.
>
> Any one knows how to accomplish this goal? I'll appreciate any suggestion.
>
> Gregorio Espadas
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Classes---Adding multiple classes to an element, is there a downfall???

[Brett Patterson]

Yea, I would never consider allowing it on any project I am working on
either...I was actually asking because I have heard that it could be done,
but never really understood (maybe, come to think of it, heard) what the
downfalls were. I do, now, thanks to you and Russ Weakley.

--
Brett P.


On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 5:17 AM,  wrote:

>  In my own personal opinion, if you get into the situation where you want
> to use a selector like:
>
> .class1.class2  { stuff }
>
> then it is time to do a little re-factoring. The whole point of allowing an
> element to have two or more classes is so that each class remains
> semantically logical. As you pointed out, it is legal to use a selector like
> the above, but I would never allow such code on any project I was working
> on. Worst case is you need to be more specific with your rules. Obviously,
> the cascade determines exactly which rule will win, but I would also be very
> wary of relying on source-order - it would be far too easy for you (or
> someone else) to decide to tidy up the stylesheet at some point and change
> the order of these two rules.
>
> Mike
>
>
> Mike Brockington
> Web Development Specialist
>
> www.calcResult.com
> www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk
> www.edinburgh.gov.uk
>
> This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the
> author alone.
>
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Re: [WSG] Classes---Adding multiple classes to an element, is there a downfall???

[Brett Patterson]

So, where:


what I was wondering (I should have worded better, sorry) was if I took:

.information
 {
 background-color: #FFF;
 color: #000;
 }
/* This below, will apply only to the paragraph with the more-styles class
applied to it */
.more-styles
 {
 color: #333;
 }

and applied to both of those paragraph (through the classes), which is the
last paragraph. The first paragraph has only one class assigned to
it...whereas, the last paragraph has 2 classes assigned: the first class
assigned, i.e. information, contains the formatting (the formatting applied
is the background-color, and the font's color (color)) that will apply to
all the paragraphs with that class assigned to them (it); the last class
assigned, i.e. more-styles, will change only the font's color in that
particular paragraph...

Is what the style you have applied, like if I had done this instead of what
is applied at the top?:::

.information.more-styles
 {
 styles: here;
 }

--
Brett P.


On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 9:57 AM, Matthew Pennell
wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Brett Patterson <
> inspiron.patters...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Note the space in the second paragraph class attribute...from what I have
>> heard this allows multiple classes to be applied to a single element. Is
>> there a downfall to applying multiple classes to an element, like the one
>> above? How does it affect UAs?
>
>
> There are no negative effects to applying multiple classes to a single
> element. The only problem is when you try to style an element that matches
> two (or more) classnames, e.g.:
>
> #content .primary.highlighted {
> background: #ff0;
> }
>
> That will work in Firefox/Safari, and apply the rule to any element with
> both the "primary" and "highlighted" classes; but in IE6 it doesn't work, it
> will just see it as .highlighted.
>
> - Matthew
>
>
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[WSG] Classes---Adding multiple classes to an element, is there a downfall???

[Brett Patterson]

Hey all, a quick question, consider the following code:



Content goes here on line 1


Content goes here on line 2


Note the space in the second paragraph class attribute...from what I have
heard this allows multiple classes to be applied to a single element. Is
there a downfall to applying multiple classes to an element, like the one
above? How does it affect UAs?

--
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Re: [WSG] a Div tag won't pick up the height of a floated image?

[Brett Patterson]

Okay, I have found a viable solution, so thanks to those that helped, your
links were much appreciated.

--
Brett P.


On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 6:03 AM, Luke Hoggett wrote:

> Perhaps google.com might help. Really Brett this list is to discuss web
> standards, not to provide tutorials for lazy people.
>
>
>
> On 17/02/2009, at 5:25, Brett Patterson 
> wrote:
>
>  Will a div tag pick up the height of an image that is floated left? I have
>> an image that is floated to the left and an unordered list that I am trying
>> to get to move to the right side of an image, in a horizontal layout...the
>> unordered list (navigation bar) is also in a horizontal line position. I
>> need the navigation to align to the bottom of the image...the image's height
>> is 100px, and the width is 200px...how would I accomplish this?
>>
>> --
>> Brett P.
>>
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[WSG] a Div tag won't pick up the height of a floated image?

[Brett Patterson]

Will a div tag pick up the height of an image that is floated left? I have
an image that is floated to the left and an unordered list that I am trying
to get to move to the right side of an image, in a horizontal layout...the
unordered list (navigation bar) is also in a horizontal line position. I
need the navigation to align to the bottom of the image...the image's height
is 100px, and the width is 200px...how would I accomplish this?

--
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Re: [WSG] A Semi-Transparent Background Color?

[Brett Patterson]

Okay, so, after doing a little bit of research and asking the company where
the styles will be applied, I have found that it will be placed similarly to
code placed in a MySpace page...I am assuming developed similarly to a
myspace page's basic starting code. I am "applying" or "practicing" the code
on my personal MySpace page to see the results...my MySpace page can be seen
at http://www.myspace.com/irontombraider

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 8:04 PM, Brett Patterson <
inspiron.patters...@gmail.com> wrote:

> To Mike, with what I am currently applying this code to it won't work,
> unfortunately. But, thanks for the link, it will be needed for a project to
> be completed in the near future. ;)
>
> To Luke, thanks for the link on the search, I will delve into it in a bit.
> :)
>
> To Lewis, Matthew, the link you gave me, gives me...somewhat...the desired
> result, however, the code I am forced to apply it to cannot be changed, so
> instead of just the background becoming semi-transparent, the whole thing is
> transparent. :(
>
> The site I am applying this code to, was built completely with tables,
> sub-tables, sub-sub-tables, etc. Few, if any, (I believe only a few main
> tables) have id and class attributes to them. A sample of the css targeting
> for these tables appears below:
>
> table table table td
>  {
>  background-image:url("
> http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv31/learnTheGame/madeown/ohtransparency.png
> ");
>  filter:alpha(opacity=10);
>  -moz-opacity:0.1;
>  opacity: 0.1;
>  -khtml-opacity:10;
>  }
>
> table table table table td
>  {
>  filter:alpha(opacity=100);
>  -moz-opacity:100;
>  opacity:1.0;
>  -khtml-opacity:100;
>  }
>
> table table table table
>  {
>  border:0px;
>  }
>
> I think the site itself was created with some sort of standard table-only
> page creator...but, I cannot honestly say for sure. There is no way for me
> to access any code other than what is located within the CSS style sheet, as
> permissions will not allow me to. That being said, is there a way, using the
> above CSS code, to not force all content within the individual Table (td)
> tags to become transparent as well, only the background of the tables and
> td's?
>
> --
> Brett P.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Lewis, Matthew  wrote:
>
>>
>> There is this article:
>>
>> http://css-tricks.com/css-transparency-settings-for-all-broswers/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/02/2009, at 1:04 PM, Brett Patterson wrote:
>>
>>  Hi all,
>>>
>>> I was wondering why there was no implementation to allow a
>>> semi-transparent background color using CSS? If there is, is there a link
>>> that would point me in the direction to figure out how to go about
>>> implementing it on a Web page?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Brett P.
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
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Re: [WSG] A Semi-Transparent Background Color?

[Brett Patterson]

To Mike, with what I am currently applying this code to it won't work,
unfortunately. But, thanks for the link, it will be needed for a project to
be completed in the near future. ;)

To Luke, thanks for the link on the search, I will delve into it in a bit.
:)

To Lewis, Matthew, the link you gave me, gives me...somewhat...the desired
result, however, the code I am forced to apply it to cannot be changed, so
instead of just the background becoming semi-transparent, the whole thing is
transparent. :(

The site I am applying this code to, was built completely with tables,
sub-tables, sub-sub-tables, etc. Few, if any, (I believe only a few main
tables) have id and class attributes to them. A sample of the css targeting
for these tables appears below:

table table table td
 {
 background-image:url("
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv31/learnTheGame/madeown/ohtransparency.png
");
 filter:alpha(opacity=10);
 -moz-opacity:0.1;
 opacity: 0.1;
 -khtml-opacity:10;
 }

table table table table td
 {
 filter:alpha(opacity=100);
 -moz-opacity:100;
 opacity:1.0;
 -khtml-opacity:100;
 }

table table table table
 {
 border:0px;
 }

I think the site itself was created with some sort of standard table-only
page creator...but, I cannot honestly say for sure. There is no way for me
to access any code other than what is located within the CSS style sheet, as
permissions will not allow me to. That being said, is there a way, using the
above CSS code, to not force all content within the individual Table (td)
tags to become transparent as well, only the background of the tables and
td's?

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 7:21 PM, Lewis, Matthew  wrote:

>
> There is this article:
>
> http://css-tricks.com/css-transparency-settings-for-all-broswers/
>
>
>
>
> On 12/02/2009, at 1:04 PM, Brett Patterson wrote:
>
>  Hi all,
>>
>> I was wondering why there was no implementation to allow a
>> semi-transparent background color using CSS? If there is, is there a link
>> that would point me in the direction to figure out how to go about
>> implementing it on a Web page?
>>
>> --
>> Brett P.
>>
>> ***
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[WSG] A Semi-Transparent Background Color?

[Brett Patterson]

Hi all,

I was wondering why there was no implementation to allow a semi-transparent
background color using CSS? If there is, is there a link that would point me
in the direction to figure out how to go about implementing it on a Web
page?

--
Brett P.


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Re: [WSG] Opera Targeting?!

[Brett Patterson]

Okay, one quick question. You say 200% is twice the default size, but in
browsers like Firefox 3, there is only the (shortcut) Ctrl++ to zoom in, and
I cannot find the percentage of that zoom, so is 200% font size increasement
one or two clicks?

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 7:47 AM, Gunlaug Sørtun  wrote:

> tee wrote:
>
>  IS 200% one time font size increasement or two?
>>
>
> 200% is twice the default size, and the number of steps to get there
> varies from browser to browsers.
>
> Again: _default_ isn't whatever size you have declared in/for your
> document, but the browsers' own defaults. This default font size is what
> you see on your screen(s) when you do not declare font-size at all in
> your documents.
> Then, make the letters in the text twice as tall in the browser itself,
> without zooming the page as a whole. That is 200% font resizing - the
> kind that actually works for end-users.
>
>  My practise for a good layout is two times increasement, and I try to
>>  accommodate one decrement, but sometimes with certain design layout,
>>  especially with floated elements that either one or both have background
>> image(s) that the underneath div block has different background color, it's
>> just too much work to take good care and I let
>>  it goes without guilt :)
>>
>
> Guilt would be misplaced no matter what, and shouldn't be an issue. No
> matter what you do you're in good (or "good") company :-)
>
> It is however your creation that gets broken if it can't take a
> reasonable amount of the stress it risks getting exposed to when
> end-users use their browsers as designed, so you can't complain about it
> being broken either.
>
>
> That foreground and background get somewhat "detached" here and there is
> quite normal, and in some cases unavoidable with today's browsers and
> standards when background-images are used. Resizing of background-images
> to go with containers is only implemented on an experimental level in
> one or maybe two browsers - have only seen/tested it in Opera.
>
> We have only the tool-set that is available in browsers at any given
> time to play with, and when that tool-set isn't sufficient we either
> have to scale back our, or our clients', ambitions and use somewhat
> safe solutions, or we have to accept that our designs break.
>
> Minimizing the problems caused by breakage at the user-end is an
> important part of web design IMO, and "trying now" certainly makes it
> easier to pick up and make use of new design tools as they become
> available to us.
>
> regards
>Georg
> --
> http://www.gunlaug.no
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Opera Targeting?!

[Brett Patterson]

Oh! I get it. Finally!!! :) It has always been my understanding, from some
books that I have read (like CIW's books, ciwcertified.com, which go into
some detail just not a lot) and a few others, that a pixel (in relation to
size, meaning if you looked at your screen closely the little squares on
your screen are "natural" pixels but the computer/browser/other settings can
change the default size) was only "enlarged" meaning that 1px would be one
pixel, but take up so many of the screen's "natural" pixels if the user
enlarged the screen.

But what you said makes more sense than that. Now I realize where most of my
problems have stemmed from.

--
Brett P.


On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 6:27 PM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis <
bhawkesle...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On 3/2/09 20:13, Brett Patterson wrote:
>
>> I really don't understand what you mean, when you say:
>>
>>It's a designer-bug. Vertical position of the navigation relies
>> entirely
>>on font size, which means it is all over the place in my browsers on
>>first load.
>>
>>No two browsers calculate font size exactly the same before rendering,
>>so relying on "pixel-perfect" font size across browser-land is not a
>>good idea. Add in font resizing and other regular options in browsers,
>>and it gets a lot worse - for the whole layout.
>>
>>
>> The problem should not rely on font size, but rather the margin from the
>> top of the item that margin-top is being applied to, to the bottom of
>> the item that is directly above the item that margin-top is being
>> applied to, correct?
>>
>
> I think Gunlaug is referring to this (simplified):
>
> 
>
>
>Title here
>
>Tabs here
>
>
> 
>
> #hdr {
>border-bottom: 1px solid #CC9966;
>height: 90px;
> }
>
> #pageheader {
>float: left;
> }
>
> You've floated #pageheader out of the normal flow that determines the
> height of #hdr, and there's nothing in place to force #hdr to contain the
> lowest floated descendant. The logo image is in normal flow but it is 85px
> tall, so what determines the height of #hdr is the "height: 90px;" setting.
>
> Consequently, the alignment of the bottom of #tabs with the bottom border
> #hdr depends on #pageheader actually being 90px tall. Since it's got text
> inside it, and you can suggest but cannot expect a font height (and
> therefore cannot even make a reliable prediction about how many lines a
> given string will need), that dependency is brittle in the extreme. In
> Firefox 3's Zoom submenu (under the View menu) try ticking "Zoom Text Only"
> and then zooming in twice to watch it break horribly, with the title text
> wrapping to the next line forcing the tabs entirely below the border.
>
> For further reading see:
>
> * http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#the-height-property
>
> * http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#Computing_heights_and_margins
>
> * http://www.ejeliot.com/blog/59
>
>  I mean I do know that font size across browsers does not render the
>> same, but if using pixels for a font size, should the pixels (in
>> relation to size) render the same?
>>
>
> I'm not entirely sure I understand the question ("in relation to size" -
> size of what?).
>
> The size of a CSS pixel is intended to be relative to the resolution of the
> viewport, and is ultimately up to the user agent:
>
> "Pixel units are relative to the resolution of the viewing device, i.e.,
> most often a computer display. If the pixel density of the output device is
> very different from that of a typical computer display, the user agent
> should rescale pixel values. It is recommended that the reference pixel be
> the visual angle of one pixel on a device with a pixel density of 96dpi and
> a distance from the reader of an arm's length. For a nominal arm's length of
> 28 inches, the visual angle is therefore about 0.0213 degrees."
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#length-units
>
> Most desktop browsers make a CSS pixel a monitor pixel, however most
> desktop browsers (Opera, IE7, IE8, Firefox 3) also include a zoom function
> that changes the effective pixel size up or down. Note that some zoom
> functions (Opera, IE8) include fit-to-width reflowing capabilities that mean
> that there's no guarantee that a box width in px will remain proportional to
> a font height specified in px.
>
> Most desktop browsers (IE, Firefox, Safari) allow users to adjust the font
> size up or down in steps. In IE's case, these adjustments 

Re: [WSG] Opera Targeting?!

[Brett Patterson]

There are patches for Internet Explorer, though Microsoft calls them several
different things, it could be a Security Update for Internet Explorer, a
Cumulative Security Update for Internet Explorer, or even a Security Update
for Windows (maybe worded differently on the last one). They just update IE
differently then all the other browsers update their own. Microsoft does not
really use v3.0.8 like Firefox would, 9.26 like Opera would, etc.

--
Brett P.


On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 3:13 PM, Brett Patterson <
inspiron.patters...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I really don't understand what you mean, when you say:
>
>> It's a designer-bug. Vertical position of the navigation relies entirely
>> on font size, which means it is all over the place in my browsers on
>> first load.
>>
>> No two browsers calculate font size exactly the same before rendering,
>> so relying on "pixel-perfect" font size across browser-land is not a
>> good idea. Add in font resizing and other regular options in browsers,
>> and it gets a lot worse - for the whole layout.
>>
>
> The problem should not rely on font size, but rather the margin from the
> top of the item that margin-top is being applied to, to the bottom of the
> item that is directly above the item that margin-top is being applied to,
> correct? I mean I do know that font size across browsers does not render the
> same, but if using pixels for a font size, should the pixels (in relation to
> size) render the same? I would think they would, but maybe I am wrong.
>
>
> You should rethink the positioning method, and forget about deviations
>> between browsers until you have stabilized it in one.
>>
>
> I do not understand this either, unless you are talking about using margin
> as the positioning method. I have stabilized it one browser. This is why I
> am worried about the deviations in all the others.
>
>
> FWIW: there are no reliable ways to target Opera anymore. You can't even
>> know for sure if Opera is Opera.
>>
>
> I do understand this. But I was hoping there was a way, like using
> JavaScript. I can understand if there is not one though.
>
>
> Besides: one should only target/hack dead browsers, like IE7 and older.
>> Targeting/hacking live browsers like Opera, Firefox, Safari etc. for
>> real, will only create maintenance-problems as new versions arrive.
>
>
> This is the most confusing part. IE7 is a live browser, if it is not then
> how can Opera, Firefox, Safari, etc., be? Every new version is then a stable
> version (dead version, though dead almost sounds as though you would mean
> like IE3 or Netscape 3). Or, are you saying that there will never be updates
> for IE7, though upon saying that, it would be incorrectly "considered"
> stable?
>
> --
> Brett P.
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Gunlaug Sørtun  wrote:
>
>> David Dixon wrote:
>>
>>> Chomping at the bit to dismiss IE7 a little early aren't we Georg? :)
>>>
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> Look at IE7 from a designer/developer's point of view...
>>
>> IE7 is "dead" - meaning: "stable", so if it acts up and there isn't a
>> suitable solution that all browsers can see, there's no harm whatsoever
>> in hacking its dead body to pieces. IE7 can't come back to haunt us, no
>> matter how many users it has.
>>
>> No other browser/version will ever see what we feed IE7 only - with the
>> right targeting method, apart from maybe IE8 (and probably its
>> successors if it gets any) when it mimics IE7 in "(backwards)
>> compatibility view".
>>
>>  Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:
>>>
>>>> Besides: one should only target/hack dead browsers, like IE7 and older.
>>>> Targeting/hacking live browsers like Opera, Firefox, Safari etc. for real,
>>>> will only create maintenance-problems as new versions arrive.
>>>>
>>>
>> regards
>>Georg
>> --
>> http://www.gunlaug.no
>>
>>
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Re: [WSG] Opera Targeting?!

[Brett Patterson]

I really don't understand what you mean, when you say:

> It's a designer-bug. Vertical position of the navigation relies entirely
> on font size, which means it is all over the place in my browsers on
> first load.
>
> No two browsers calculate font size exactly the same before rendering,
> so relying on "pixel-perfect" font size across browser-land is not a
> good idea. Add in font resizing and other regular options in browsers,
> and it gets a lot worse - for the whole layout.
>

The problem should not rely on font size, but rather the margin from the top
of the item that margin-top is being applied to, to the bottom of the item
that is directly above the item that margin-top is being applied to,
correct? I mean I do know that font size across browsers does not render the
same, but if using pixels for a font size, should the pixels (in relation to
size) render the same? I would think they would, but maybe I am wrong.


You should rethink the positioning method, and forget about deviations
> between browsers until you have stabilized it in one.
>

I do not understand this either, unless you are talking about using margin
as the positioning method. I have stabilized it one browser. This is why I
am worried about the deviations in all the others.


FWIW: there are no reliable ways to target Opera anymore. You can't even
> know for sure if Opera is Opera.
>

I do understand this. But I was hoping there was a way, like using
JavaScript. I can understand if there is not one though.


Besides: one should only target/hack dead browsers, like IE7 and older.
> Targeting/hacking live browsers like Opera, Firefox, Safari etc. for
> real, will only create maintenance-problems as new versions arrive.


This is the most confusing part. IE7 is a live browser, if it is not then
how can Opera, Firefox, Safari, etc., be? Every new version is then a stable
version (dead version, though dead almost sounds as though you would mean
like IE3 or Netscape 3). Or, are you saying that there will never be updates
for IE7, though upon saying that, it would be incorrectly "considered"
stable?

--
Brett P.


On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Gunlaug Sørtun  wrote:

> David Dixon wrote:
>
>> Chomping at the bit to dismiss IE7 a little early aren't we Georg? :)
>>
>
> :-)
>
> Look at IE7 from a designer/developer's point of view...
>
> IE7 is "dead" - meaning: "stable", so if it acts up and there isn't a
> suitable solution that all browsers can see, there's no harm whatsoever
> in hacking its dead body to pieces. IE7 can't come back to haunt us, no
> matter how many users it has.
>
> No other browser/version will ever see what we feed IE7 only - with the
> right targeting method, apart from maybe IE8 (and probably its
> successors if it gets any) when it mimics IE7 in "(backwards)
> compatibility view".
>
>  Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:
>>
>>> Besides: one should only target/hack dead browsers, like IE7 and older.
>>> Targeting/hacking live browsers like Opera, Firefox, Safari etc. for real,
>>> will only create maintenance-problems as new versions arrive.
>>>
>>
> regards
>Georg
> --
> http://www.gunlaug.no
>
>
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[WSG] Opera Targeting?!

[Brett Patterson]

Hello All,

I am in the process of working on my portfolio. It is not complete yet, but
one problem with my navigation menu on the top exists. Although it is a
minor pixel alignment in Opera, I cannot, for the life of me, figure out why
only Opera is aligning my tabs (which are the top part of my navigation) 1px
above the bottom border. If my site is visited in Firefox or Internet
Explorer first, you can see that everything aligns perfectly. Is there a way
to target Opera specifically? I have used conditional comments,
including  to .

My site can be seen at
http://ttcharriman.edu/TTCH07/iftprojects/brettpatterson/index.html

Can anyone help, please?

--
Brett P.


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[WSG] HTML 5 and XHTML 2 combined

[Brett Patterson]

 I would feel everyone in cooperation would be the way to go. Browser
vendors (going to call them vendors, for short) need to understand that just
because they want what they want does not matter as much as what is needed.
If a major change is needed and vendors do not want to follow along, then so
be it. If every vendor's ideas differed in some respect, then every browser
would become an "Internet Explorer -type" browser. One that does not follow
suit with the way things ought to be, in IE's case, is. It should be said to
them that whole "fact," to save everyone the headache of trying to design
for every different browser and what that browser supports/does not support.
Sorry, but it is a bit of a touchy subject, especially considering the
amount of work that one has to put in with others to get *EVERY* browser to
play with one good block of code.

How do you imagine this could be reconciled? If you hijack HTML5 to
> effectively become XHTML2, browser vendors will just again come up with
> something different conforming to *their* goals. (HTML4.5 or whatever.)
>

Their goals are not as important as what the whole idea of the Web is, and
Tim Berners-Lee's/CERN's goals for the Web. Which is, as one major part
(responsibility of advocates/vendors/anyone with any part of the Web),
universal accessibility. When vendors design for their own goal(s), they are
not living up to that responsibility; therefore, their points and concerns
mean *NOTHING*, and can be dismissed without a split-second thought, when it
comes to the working groups and what is deemed necessary to reach that goal
of universal accessibility.

And to Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis, to answer your earlier questions

When you speak of browser vendors mixing "old languages with the new", I'm
> not sure what you mean, or why it is a problem.
>
The below also explains the above quote of your question. The problem is,
that we need to drop what really is heavy and unnecessary luggage, (this
luggage being what is not supported in XHTML 1.0 Transitional, at least by
my view points).

"Rift-raft," as Philip said is, "the baggage of earlier, arguably poorly
thought out, standards."

You mentioned creating Transitional and Strict document types, but it's
> unclear what user problems this would solve or how exactly it would help
> merge HTML5 and XHTML2.


I meant this in the sense of the current X/HTML transitional and strict
approaches, as in the reason they were developed rather than just a Strict
or Transitional approach (not implementing both, in HTML and XHTML). It
could help merge them and solve problems by identifying any conflicting
parts of the Standards, any conflicts that you can see that might take
place. Focus on the Code that goes into a web page first, you have a small
portion of differences that can be resolved by dropping the "luggage of
earlier, poorly thought out standards."

Why would combining HTML5 and XHTML2 would prevent browser developers
> inventing their own language features?


This is best answered by reading the 3 previous posts from this one.

What "headache" are you talking about?


The headache stems from the different code necessary to force IE to play
nicely and the different codes each browser has made especially for itself
(understand the question above about inventing their own language features,
where we completely ignore them).


But, anyway, like I said, I read your links and can now agree with you. I
was just trying to answer your previous questions, not stir up another
argument.

--
Brett P.



On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 11:45 AM, Molte  wrote:

> Indeed they should.
>
> The problem just might be, that if the browser vendors do not like the
> language they can simply just avoid supporting it (just like going on a
> strike). And then what idea is there of a standard that is not supported or
> used?
>
> It's just a question about who has the power to decide the future of the
> Web. The browser vendors? the coders/developers? "us"? or just everyone in
> cooperation?
>
> 2009/1/20 Brett Patterson 
>
> Okay, long time posted in this subject. I see where Benjamin is heading
>> with his discussions, and I agree with him. Took me awhile to read and
>> understand his links. But, Olaf, why are browser vendors allowed to choose
>> what is right and wrong with HTML and XHTML, and coders are to play along,
>> and the working groups that build upon HTML and XHTML (work with it, fix it,
>> whatever) suppose to conform to browser vendor's goals? They should not be
>> allowed to tell working groups what should and should not be allowed! It is
>> not up to them. If it is, what is the purpose of the working groups? Are the
>> working groups composed only of browser vendors, or both designers/coders
>> and 

Re: [WSG] Image with borders due to Anchor tag

[Brett Patterson]

Okay, I understand. Thanks.

--
Brett P.


On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 4:46 AM, Simon Moss  wrote:

> Isn't it because the img tag when within an anchor tag will by default show
> a blue border around it - behaviour from the days before css? Separate
> behaviour from the anchor tag itself - a special instance of the img tag
> itself.
>
> So if you're wondering why - well - because of history? (I never thought
> working with the web would make me feel old... ;-)  )
>
> Simon M
>
>> The question, better explained is, using the above code, why do you have
>> to apply the CSS attribute, border: none;, to the image tag within the
>> anchor tag? Rather than using text-decoration: none;, to the anchor tag,
>> like you would use it to apply to an anchor tag with text in it to remove
>> the underline.
>>
>> Observe...
>>
>> text is now not
>> underlined
>> text is now underlined
>>
>> As the anchor tag automatically applies the blue, underlined part of the
>> text, when surrounding an image tag it puts the underline on the image, but
>> in a blue border form around the image. Why use border: none; to the image
>> rather than text-decoration: none; to the anchor tag?
>>
>> If you have a page that needs all the links to have no underline or
>> "border" (if an image is a link as well), why would want to have to have to
>> declarations for that, rather than one? You could have:
>>
>> a
>>  {
>>  text-decoration: none;
>>  }
>>
>> a img
>>  {
>>  border: none;
>>  }
>>
>> but that takes a little more coding. Not that much more but still... you
>> could have just used the a { text-decoration: none; }.
>>
>> --
>> Brett P.
>>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Image with borders due to Anchor tag

[Brett Patterson]

The question, better explained is, using the above code, why do you have to
apply the CSS attribute, border: none;, to the image tag within the anchor
tag? Rather than using text-decoration: none;, to the anchor tag, like you
would use it to apply to an anchor tag with text in it to remove the
underline.

Observe...

text is now not
underlined
text is now underlined

As the anchor tag automatically applies the blue, underlined part of the
text, when surrounding an image tag it puts the underline on the image, but
in a blue border form around the image. Why use border: none; to the image
rather than text-decoration: none; to the anchor tag?

If you have a page that needs all the links to have no underline or "border"
(if an image is a link as well), why would want to have to have to
declarations for that, rather than one? You could have:

a
 {
 text-decoration: none;
 }

a img
 {
 border: none;
 }

but that takes a little more coding. Not that much more but still... you
could have just used the a { text-decoration: none; }.

--
Brett P.


On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Johan Douma  wrote:

> I'm not sure if I understand the question...
> But it's actually easy to remove the borders from an image in an anchor tag
> using css, not inline.
>
> a img{
>   border:none;
> }
>
> When that's done, you can do whatever you want with the link or with the
> image.
>
>
> Johan Douma
> johando...@gmail.com
>
> 2009/1/16 Brett Patterson 
>
>> Okay. That makes sense.
>>
>> --
>> Brett P.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 3:52 PM, David Dorward wrote:
>>
>>> Brett Patterson wrote:
>>> > So, my question is this. Why does the image tag have to have the border
>>> > placed on it, instead of placing the border or text-decoration styles
>>> on
>>> > the anchor tag?
>>>
>>> Consider the case:
>>>
>>>   Ipsum Ipsum 
>>>
>>> A border around the entire thing would give a very different effect to a
>>> border around just the image.
>>>
>>> There's no selector in CSS to select an element based on its descendants
>>> either.
>>>
>>> --
>>> David Dorward   <http://dorward.me.uk/>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [WSG] Image with borders due to Anchor tag

[Brett Patterson]

Okay. That makes sense.

--
Brett P.


On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 3:52 PM, David Dorward  wrote:

> Brett Patterson wrote:
> > So, my question is this. Why does the image tag have to have the border
> > placed on it, instead of placing the border or text-decoration styles on
> > the anchor tag?
>
> Consider the case:
>
>   Ipsum Ipsum 
>
> A border around the entire thing would give a very different effect to a
> border around just the image.
>
> There's no selector in CSS to select an element based on its descendants
> either.
>
> --
> David Dorward   <http://dorward.me.uk/>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] embedding quicktime .mov cross-platform

[Brett Patterson]

I agree with Steve and Nancy. Have you tried to convert .mov into .mpeg, or
similar?

Try using sourceforge.net to locate some file format converters.

And as far as embedding a movie or similar, have you searched alistapart.com
?

And might I suggest http://www.delicious.com/irontombraider?

I have a bunch of different links on there.

--
Brett P.


On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Steve Green wrote:

> I don't allow QuickTime to be installed on any of our machines either. Is
> there a reason why you can't use a file format that has a larger installed
> user base? Most non-Mac users won't have QuickTime.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
> Behalf Of Nancy Johnson
> Sent: 15 January 2009 18:58
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] embedding quicktime .mov cross-platform
>
> Firefox 2 asked for quicktime plugins.  My company won't allow you to
> install quicktime on their pcs.
>
> Nancy
>
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Ron Zisman  wrote:
> > anybody know of a solid way to embed quicktime movies
> > cross-platform--in a standards sort of way.
> >
> > i've googled around and haven't found what i need. i'm told my current
> > method hates IE. surprise.
> >
> > test page here:
> > http://www.ricochet.org/test_flippin/georg_tampered.html
> >
> > thanks in advance
> >
> > --ron
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [WSG] SEO and Flash

[Brett Patterson]

I concur with Benjamin.

"Try to use Flash only where it is needed. Many rich media sites such
> as Google's YouTube use Flash for rich media but rely on HTML for
> content and navigation. You can too, by limiting Flash to on-page
> accents and rich media, not content and navigation. In addition to
> making your site Googlebot-friendly, this makes you site accessible to
> a larger audience, including, for example, blind people using screen
> readers, users of old or non-standard browsers, and those on limited
> low-bandwidth connections such as on a cell phone or PDA. As a bonus,
> your visitors can use bookmarks effectively, and can email links to
> your pages to their friends."
>

I agree, but as I have stated, the idea of accessible Flash is a good
concept. Why are we arguing this point?

To those that say Screen Readers cannot read Flash in anyway, have you
actually used screen readers? Not just one or two, but 10 or more? I have;
and I have found out that a good bit allow some Flash accessibility, such as
videos and any accessible text. And yes, screen readers and SE
spiders/crawlers read/index Flash differently, but screen readers can and
some do allow an accessible Flash flv file to play.

--
Brett P.


On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:58 AM, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis <
bhawkesle...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On 15/1/09 06:59, Stuart Foulstone wrote:
>
>> If the text in Flash is accessible SEs will index it.
>>
>> Search robots are in effect blind readers.
>>
>> If text in Flash is accessible, screen readers can read it.
>>
>
> The mechanisms provided for search engines and screen readers to read Flash
> content are very different, not least because screen readers need to
> interact with Flash functionality not just read Flash content.
>
>  However, sensible screen-reader users disable Flash.
>>
>
> Not when they want to listen to videos and audio on the web, they don't.
>
> --
> Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
>
>
>
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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

[Brett Patterson]

And we do agree. But again, NOT THE POINT, although it may be wrong, it may
need to be designed accessible in the first place, it hasn't, so don't argue
the point. End it at the fact that something needs to be done and people are
ignorant. BCAT is doing what people should be doing, fixing things that are
inaccessible, NO MATTER WHAT!

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:22 PM, Christie Mason wrote:

>  Well there goes that theory.  My thoughts were something like graphically
> oriented people are attracted to using Macs and Flash.  BCAT's attempting to
> make Flash accessible is good but if the content hadn't been made
> inaccessible in the first place, then it wouldn't be needed.
>
> Yes, Flash can be used appropriately to give rich depth to a concept,  but
> it's still primarily used in the eLearning world (including both corporate
> trainers and educators) to port PPT to Flash and that's just wrong.
>
> Christie Mason
>
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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

[Brett Patterson]

Forgot to mention several other things, Christie.


   1. "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail", I am
   still laughing at that.

CM - Interaction is more than clicking on a link or moving things around on
> a screen.  Those "links" are easier to develop and manage with HTML, plus
> there's still the additional cost of developing/maintaining Flash plus
> addt'l costs to make it as accessible as text/graphics.  Yes, Flash can be
> used but it should never be the only tool that's used.   If a concept can
> ONLY be understood if the learner HAS to SEE it in action then even adding
> all the accessibility add ons to Flash won't help.  In addition,  I've found
> that need to be rare and certainly no reason to justify putting all content
> into Flash.
>

Sorry I wasn't as clear as I should have been. Those links are not like
using the  tag. They are like lines drawn on a map. Linking (drawing a
line) from one side to the other (one word to its definition), a line, if
you have ever done it, like connect-the-dots.

To the question about this conversation being done in Flash, it very well
could have. With some minor changes, we could have talked with video
conferencing. Kinda hard to do, but it can be done.

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Brett Patterson <
inspiron.patters...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Pardon the language, but Hell no. For a number of different reasons. Among
> that being, I can't work with the code as good as I can with Microsoft's and
> the fact that it costs too much money. Although it is proprietary, I can
> recode most of what I need to do (Microsoft's code). To say I disagree with
> you, or anyone else for that matter, about Flash not being used by people
> properly, would be a lie. Even being used on the Web itself, I would say
> that is a lie if I disagree. But, I must at least agree with the people who
> are trying to make it accessible. It doesn't matter what we think about it,
> it's going to be there regardless, so instead we need to work on
> accessibility of ALL things that go on the Web. Having looked at the
> solution by BCAT, or whatever it's called, I have noticed some major
> improvements, and most importantly, that it cannot only be applied to
> eLearning, but other ways of Flash uses as well. This is why I promote it,
> now.
>
> And I must say that all teachers/educators, whatever word you wish to use,
> do recognize different ways to show content off. Even I know different ways.
> Everyone that does use Flash for eLearning, offers different ways to learn
> it. But again, like I said, not my opinion about using it that matters, nor
> anyone else's. What does matter though, is this, (again to reiterate) it
> will be there no matter what, whether we like it or not, so let's work on
> the making it accessible together, get it done and be done with it.
>
> True to anyone that says it should be Adobe's problem to fix. I agree. But
> they are lazy, so it is up to other people to fix their problem. Okay, so I
> really don't want to have to fix it, you don't want to fix it, we don't want
> to fix it, but BCAT is stepping up and taking charge and fixing it. Let's
> support them, and hope it works. As long as they don't charge. Then it
> becomes a-whole-nother story. But beyond that, more power to them.
>
> Christie, we are both Constructionists in the term you defined. But I am
> also a Visionary. Plus, I try to help make Tim Berners-Lee's goals possible.
> Those that argue the point it should not be made accessible and not put on
> the web are saying they don't care about his vision of the WWW. Why do I say
> they don't care? Because it's one of either two things, with no other
> possibility. These two choices are either: 1) You don't care about Mr.
> Berners-Lee's vision or the WWW, for that matter. or 2) Your ignorant,
> because you have accepted or don't know that Flash is here to stay.
>
> --
> Brett P.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Christie Mason 
> wrote:
>
>>  Brett you are correct, This is a personal theory based on some personal
>> observations.  Do you use a Mac as your primary development computer?
>>
>> Christie Mason
>>
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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

[Brett Patterson]

Pardon the language, but Hell no. For a number of different reasons. Among
that being, I can't work with the code as good as I can with Microsoft's and
the fact that it costs too much money. Although it is proprietary, I can
recode most of what I need to do (Microsoft's code). To say I disagree with
you, or anyone else for that matter, about Flash not being used by people
properly, would be a lie. Even being used on the Web itself, I would say
that is a lie if I disagree. But, I must at least agree with the people who
are trying to make it accessible. It doesn't matter what we think about it,
it's going to be there regardless, so instead we need to work on
accessibility of ALL things that go on the Web. Having looked at the
solution by BCAT, or whatever it's called, I have noticed some major
improvements, and most importantly, that it cannot only be applied to
eLearning, but other ways of Flash uses as well. This is why I promote it,
now.

And I must say that all teachers/educators, whatever word you wish to use,
do recognize different ways to show content off. Even I know different ways.
Everyone that does use Flash for eLearning, offers different ways to learn
it. But again, like I said, not my opinion about using it that matters, nor
anyone else's. What does matter though, is this, (again to reiterate) it
will be there no matter what, whether we like it or not, so let's work on
the making it accessible together, get it done and be done with it.

True to anyone that says it should be Adobe's problem to fix. I agree. But
they are lazy, so it is up to other people to fix their problem. Okay, so I
really don't want to have to fix it, you don't want to fix it, we don't want
to fix it, but BCAT is stepping up and taking charge and fixing it. Let's
support them, and hope it works. As long as they don't charge. Then it
becomes a-whole-nother story. But beyond that, more power to them.

Christie, we are both Constructionists in the term you defined. But I am
also a Visionary. Plus, I try to help make Tim Berners-Lee's goals possible.
Those that argue the point it should not be made accessible and not put on
the web are saying they don't care about his vision of the WWW. Why do I say
they don't care? Because it's one of either two things, with no other
possibility. These two choices are either: 1) You don't care about Mr.
Berners-Lee's vision or the WWW, for that matter. or 2) Your ignorant,
because you have accepted or don't know that Flash is here to stay.

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Christie Mason wrote:

>  Brett you are correct, This is a personal theory based on some personal
> observations.  Do you use a Mac as your primary development computer?
>
> Christie Mason
>
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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

[Brett Patterson]

The below was to James Ducker.

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Brett Patterson <
inspiron.patters...@gmail.com> wrote:

> THANK YOU!!! I could not agree with you more. And in the same since, I
> think we agree with each other.
>
> Congratulations on an argument "well-played." And well-thought!!!
>
> --
> Brett P.
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:05 AM, James Ducker wrote:
>
>> Hi WSG,
>>
>> This entire argument is getting a bit much. Nothing on the web is in and
>> of itself particularly accessible. Accessibility in HTML is a joke unless
>> you have been taught the right practices. Flash was, is, and will continue
>> to be, primarily, a tool for delivery of rich, interactive media. To that
>> end accessibility in flash is almost a moot point, as you're never going to
>> be able to enable a blind person to watch a video. If the issue is text, you
>> shouldn't be using Flash, and if you are you should be implementing it in a
>> manner that allows for graceful degradation. I know I'm glossing the issue,
>> but bear with me.
>>
>> > Plenty of teachers, trainers, training providers, universities, TAFEs,
>> schools, HR areas, etc are essentially lazy and can't be bothered to
>> actually understand learning theory. This is why they 'continue to be
>> committed to linear, push methodologies', it's easy to understand and cheep
>> to develop. Vendor just give the market what they want.
>>
>> TAFEs and other para-tertiary institutions do this because that is what
>> they are there to do. Their purpose is to give students the skills necessary
>> to get a job and then self-perpetuate their skills. My experience of
>> universities is that they don't do this at all. Even the less technical I.T.
>> degrees will throw a smorgasbord of programming languages (no one goes to
>> university to write HTML) and development methodologies at you and let you
>> figure out which one works best for you. The result of being a good
>> programmer is that it becomes easy to pick up ActionScript and use it well.
>> Virtually no one writes good ActionScript.
>>
>> I've never taught flash to a class, so I won't speculate on its
>> usefulness. It is in my opinion something that should be taught to I.T.
>> students because of the ubiquity of Flash on the web.
>>
>> I think the argument against Flash in eLearning is flawed. It sounds more
>> like an argument of how Flash is being used in eLearning. The issue doesn't
>> lie with Flash itself, but with how eLearning software producers are using
>> it.
>>
>> > Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love the web, possibly because
>> they
>> > can't control it.
>>
>> This is mostly untrue, teachers do love the web. Occasionally you will
>> find a teacher whose methods are out of date, but most commonly the issues
>> lie with course curricula.
>>
>> I have hope that the tide is turning.  Teachers/trainers have experienced
>>> the difficulties in creating and maintaining their content in Flash (just
>>> try changing one image used in multiple Flash files and the difficulties
>>> become clear)
>>
>>
>> Again, this boils down to being a bad Flash developer. It took me a few
>> seconds to think of a way to modify an image in multiple Flash files at once
>> (without interrupting their availability to users either).
>>
>>
>>> the web generation is beginning to pierce/influence decision
>>> making levels, students/employees that love the web push to learn from
>>> formal resources the way they informally learn from the web, plus content
>>> changes in ever decreasing time cycles which leaves little time to build
>>> and
>>> rebuild Flash delivered content.
>>
>>
>> I am a student. Formal resources are about the best damn thing that
>> university has provided me. Unfortunately it's (arguably) not fun or cool to
>> read a programming book cover to cover, so I can see why people complain.
>> Stop using the term 'love the web'. Lots of people love the web, I'm sure,
>> but it doesn't mean they have the first clue what's good for it.
>>
>>
>> The few times I have seen Flash used well and written well it's beautiful.
>> It's amazing. It's like having sunshine flowing through your vains. So, do
>> you blame HTML for every poorly coded website? Do you blame Flash for every
>> bad use of Flash?
>>
>> Anyway, it seems like this entire 

Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

[Brett Patterson]

Christie, your argument is about the most ridiculous argument there is.
Everything you have stated is SOLELY about you and your personal
preferences. Observe:

I'm not a highly visual person, I even prefer reading data to being given a
> graph.
>

So what? *NONE OF THIS IS ABOUT YOU!!!* Your personal preference is
irrelevant, as well as mine. Other people may not like reading. They may be
more visual. Focus on everyone, not yourself, and you CANNOT design a web
page if you only focus on yourself and how you may view and read it. It
can't happen. Unless you want people to view only how you viewed it when
designing.

You also state:

> Hassan, I also have a theory that I'd like to test with you.  Do you use
>> Macs as your primary computer or PC?  I think the very visual are drawn
>> towards using Macs and Flash.
>>
>
> I don't think it's about me :-)
>

True, Hassan, it's not about you. Christie, do you think Macs are not PC's?
Because they are. And PC's (Personal Computers, that is what a PC stands
for) is too broad a subject. Clarify!!!

Since you like to read, here is this,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_computer
it shows the definition and what is included in the "subject". Such as Macs
and Windows and Linux-based OS are PC's.

Again using the quote above, you are also Stereotyping. Not all people are
drawn towards Macs and Flash. Some maybe drawn to Linux, Ubuntu, Windows,
etc.

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Hassan Schroeder wrote:

> Christie Mason wrote:
>
>  CM - I wasn't talking about Flex.  I was referring to Flash.  I can see
>> that
>> I wasn't clear when I changed thoughts.
>>
>
> And again, missing the point: Flash is a *platform* with which you
> can do a variety of things. It's not 1998 any more, and Flash is
> only about Dancing Hampsters(sic) if *you* want it to be.
>
>  CM -  Instead of humphing at me, educate me and by extension everyone
>> else.
>> What does Flex do better, faster, cheaper than a text based database with
>> links to graphics, video/Flash, etc
>>
>
> It's *integrated* with the video, graphics, sound. Let's say you're
> teaching bicycle mechanics, and you have a video that demonstrates
> replacing a cog in a cassette. As the component is disassembled, you
> want to show the name and details of each piece as text to one side,
> and maybe warnings/cautions on the other, with a static exploded
> view of the assembly above where each component is highlighted as
> it's being removed in the video.
>
> You might be able to do that with the JavaScript-ActionScript bridge
> and plain HTML but I guarantee it would be a /lot/ clumsier. :-)
>
>  Plus, I'd be curious as to availability of the Flex server in
>> remote hosts. I haven't seen any offer it, is it still so pricey(?)
>>
>
> No idea, check with Adobe. My last Flex project was a couple years
> ago, and I'm pretty sure they've changed the licensing since then.
>
> And there's also OpenLaszlo, of course.
>
>  Hassan, I also have a theory that I'd like to test with you.  Do you use
>> Macs as your primary computer or PC?  I think the very visual are drawn
>> towards using Macs and Flash.
>>
>
> I don't think it's about me :-)
>
> The point is using the proper tool for the job, and any application
> with multimedia aspects is a candidate for a Flash-based solution.
>
>  I'm not a highly visual person, I even prefer reading data to being given
>> a
>> graph.
>>
>
> I spend most of my time in a text editor or bash, regardless of
> what platform I'm using. But that's probably not germane to this
> discussion, either.
>
>  I don't see the value of most rich interface methods because it's
>> been my experience than when people start focusing on making the
>> interface/content flash around
>>
>
> How about focusing on using multimedia to add value, to create a more
> effective learning experience, as I hopefully demonstrated above?
>
>
> FWIW,
> --
> Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com
> Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com
>
>  dream.  code.
>
>
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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

[Brett Patterson]

THANK YOU!!! I could not agree with you more. And in the same since, I think
we agree with each other.

Congratulations on an argument "well-played." And well-thought!!!

--
Brett P.


On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:05 AM, James Ducker wrote:

> Hi WSG,
>
> This entire argument is getting a bit much. Nothing on the web is in and of
> itself particularly accessible. Accessibility in HTML is a joke unless you
> have been taught the right practices. Flash was, is, and will continue to
> be, primarily, a tool for delivery of rich, interactive media. To that end
> accessibility in flash is almost a moot point, as you're never going to be
> able to enable a blind person to watch a video. If the issue is text, you
> shouldn't be using Flash, and if you are you should be implementing it in a
> manner that allows for graceful degradation. I know I'm glossing the issue,
> but bear with me.
>
> > Plenty of teachers, trainers, training providers, universities, TAFEs,
> schools, HR areas, etc are essentially lazy and can't be bothered to
> actually understand learning theory. This is why they 'continue to be
> committed to linear, push methodologies', it's easy to understand and cheep
> to develop. Vendor just give the market what they want.
>
> TAFEs and other para-tertiary institutions do this because that is what
> they are there to do. Their purpose is to give students the skills necessary
> to get a job and then self-perpetuate their skills. My experience of
> universities is that they don't do this at all. Even the less technical I.T.
> degrees will throw a smorgasbord of programming languages (no one goes to
> university to write HTML) and development methodologies at you and let you
> figure out which one works best for you. The result of being a good
> programmer is that it becomes easy to pick up ActionScript and use it well.
> Virtually no one writes good ActionScript.
>
> I've never taught flash to a class, so I won't speculate on its usefulness.
> It is in my opinion something that should be taught to I.T. students because
> of the ubiquity of Flash on the web.
>
> I think the argument against Flash in eLearning is flawed. It sounds more
> like an argument of how Flash is being used in eLearning. The issue doesn't
> lie with Flash itself, but with how eLearning software producers are using
> it.
>
> > Teacher/trainer decision makers don't love the web, possibly because they
> > can't control it.
>
> This is mostly untrue, teachers do love the web. Occasionally you will find
> a teacher whose methods are out of date, but most commonly the issues lie
> with course curricula.
>
> I have hope that the tide is turning.  Teachers/trainers have experienced
>> the difficulties in creating and maintaining their content in Flash (just
>> try changing one image used in multiple Flash files and the difficulties
>> become clear)
>
>
> Again, this boils down to being a bad Flash developer. It took me a few
> seconds to think of a way to modify an image in multiple Flash files at once
> (without interrupting their availability to users either).
>
>
>> the web generation is beginning to pierce/influence decision
>> making levels, students/employees that love the web push to learn from
>> formal resources the way they informally learn from the web, plus content
>> changes in ever decreasing time cycles which leaves little time to build
>> and
>> rebuild Flash delivered content.
>
>
> I am a student. Formal resources are about the best damn thing that
> university has provided me. Unfortunately it's (arguably) not fun or cool to
> read a programming book cover to cover, so I can see why people complain.
> Stop using the term 'love the web'. Lots of people love the web, I'm sure,
> but it doesn't mean they have the first clue what's good for it.
>
>
> The few times I have seen Flash used well and written well it's beautiful.
> It's amazing. It's like having sunshine flowing through your vains. So, do
> you blame HTML for every poorly coded website? Do you blame Flash for every
> bad use of Flash?
>
> Anyway, it seems like this entire argument would be better stated as
> "People who hate Flash because it doesn't behave in a manner identical to
> HTML, and also because it isn't HTML".
>
> - James
>
>
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Re: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT

[Brett Patterson]

I hope I can throw my 2 cents in. Not trying to argue, but to TRY and answer
some questions.

> A question was asked early in this thread about what are the benefits of
> using Flash? There's been no answer to that question.  I was hoping to
> learn
> some answers because I've been confused about why it's become so widely
> used
> in eLearning.


Okay, first this part of the answer. There are different types of ways that
people learn. I suggest reading:

http://www.worldwidelearn.com/education-articles/how-do-you-learn.htm

or

http://www.google.com/search?q=types+of+learning&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS301US303

the above is a quick search.

But in other ways, there have been found different ways besides the three
listed in the first link. Interaction. Here is an interaction information
link, it is in pdf:

http://www.sloan-c.org/publications/books/interactions.pdf

and to search:

http://www.google.com/search?q=interaction+learning&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS301US303

there are a lot of other different, informative links on that search.

Interaction is one the greatest styles of learning there is, in my opinion
(don't jump at that, because it is just my opinion, although I must stress
that my opinion mainly depends on the subject being taught). Flash can help
tremendously with interaction, although that is not the only way. An
excellently developed Flash eLearning solution will add a lot of different
types of learning solutions to it. Most do. In an excellently developed
site, you will have "links" to different portions of the file, where one may
be to read what needs to be read, one may have one spoken to you, and
another may ask for questions and answers. Others, may things where you need
to drag objects to stage or link one side (which may contain a list of
words) to the other (the definitions of those words) (you click the word,
then click the definition to check answer). And yet, even more others, will
contain videos that someone can watch to see something being done, if they
are a visual learner. In these regards, Flash can offer many different
advantages to ALL different styles of learning. But, like the arguments
posted, there is the question of Accessibility. There is no reason that
flash cannot be used on a site. Some have stated that a little can add depth
to a site. Well, my question to those statements, how are you saying your
site is "accessible" if you do not have an accessible Flash file on it? You
cannot, unless you say it is accessible on only the main parts of the site.
But, that would leave a large part of the disabled out if they cannot see
what is happening.

Flash is a way to do learning online, just like the combination of
HTML/CSS/JS/AJAX, etc. And if instructors do want to use Flash for whatever
reason, then by all means, make accessible Flash. You cannot change all the
teachers in the world, it is impossible, and Flash is here to stay.

Um, I hope that explains it, I noticed when rereading it might not fully
explain, if it doesn't let me know.

BCAT's developers have a serious nerve asking the WSG community to
> provide feedback on a site they've built, but then require that
> a) people compromise their freedom by signing an NDA to even view the
> site, and then add insult to injury by
> b) making the terms of the NDA available only in a non-standard,
> proprietary MS Word DOC format.
>

On the first part I disagree, they do not. But on the last part, I would
have to agree (the b) part). But, again but, people do not compromise
freedom by being asked to sign an NDA. That is an argument either way
understandably. I can agree that you shouldn't be asked to sign an NDA, but
on the other hand, I can agree that you should. I can agree in the since
that they are protecting their site from being "compromised", meaning they
do not want word to slip out on what is being developed yet, since it may or
may not be completed. On the other hand, I cannot agree with that NDA,
because of the b) part, and the fact that you are being asked to look at it,
and it is a waste of time having to read it, agree to it, and then get to
the point of the matter. Both arguments listed.

Simon said, (not trying to get hateful) and I quote:

> Ultimately teachers should aim to teach the skills that are required of
> students entering the industry. It's not uncommon that many secondary and
> tertiary IT and web media courses are grossly outdated. From my experience
> this is mostly attributed to the teacher's education in the field which they
> received when they did their tertiary education in order to teach, and have
> since not remained up to date with new developments and sadly even
> standards. Money and a requirement to regularly attend courses to keep
> educators up to date help in this regard but nothing beats personal
> interest—the high school IT teacher that in their own time is actively
> involved in his or her field will be more likely to teach his students a

[WSG] Image with borders due to Anchor tag

[Brett Patterson]

Hi all,

I do not know if this has been asked before, and if it has I apologize for
asking again, but consider the following code:

http://www.mozilla.org"; class="small-names">

Inside the  tag there is an inline style that declares that the image
have no border. I used the inline style here, in this case, to show the
example. It was my understanding that the anchor tag added the border to the
image, mostly due to the underline added by using the anchor tag.

So, my question is this. Why does the image tag have to have the border
placed on it, instead of placing the border or text-decoration styles on the
anchor tag?

--
Brett P.


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Re: [WSG] JavaScript as External File vs. Internal Code and linking to images

[Brett Patterson]

:) I like the disclaimer. Thanks to both of you, that does explain it. By
the way, I am not a JS nut. :) I am "new".

--
Brett P.


On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Tatham Oddie  wrote:

>  Brett,
>
>
>
> CSS is defining the image links, so the paths are relative to the CSS file
> itself.
>
>
>
> JavaScript is a bit different. It is basically just setting properties on
> the HTML elements and this is no different to setting those properties
> yourself. As such, any image references are relative to the HTML page and
> *not* the JS file.
>
>
>
> Does that help?
>
>
>
>
>
> (Disclaimer: I know this isn't the 100% perfect explanation of DHTML but it
> serves the purpose of answering this question. If you're a JS nut, please
> don't pounce.)
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Tatham Oddie
>
> call:+61414275989 , 
> call:+61280113982,
> skype:tathamoddie, msn:tat...@oddie.com.au, tatham.oddie.com.au
>
>
>
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Brett Patterson
> *Sent:* Wednesday, 7 January 2009 12:08 AM
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* [WSG] JavaScript as External File vs. Internal Code and linking
> to images
>
>
>
> Recently, I experimented with changing check boxes with JavaScript. If the
> user clicked on the words next to the check box, then the box would be
> checked, once checked if the user clicked again, then the box would be
> unchecked. I wound up having to apply the same code to the check box itself
> in order to get it to work. In addition, I added code that would change the
> background image of the page to either a solid color, if checked, or back to
> the original image, if unchecked. It did not work. So after changing it some
> more and still getting no results (I think I even asked here), I did some
> research and found another way to link images directly in JavaScript.
> I should make note that all the code was in an external file at the time.
> The following is the structure of the site:
>
> -container (the name of the containing folder for all files)
> ||
> --index.html (home page where the code will be used)
> --scripts (the scripts folder, contains all the scripts)
> |
> ---scripts.js (the scripts file itself)
> ^^
> --styles (stylesheets folder located directly within the container
> folder)
> ||
> ---styles.css (contains style declarations)
> ^^
> --images  (located directly within the container folder)
> |
> ---linkedimage.png (the image to be changed in page background)
>
> I hope the structure above makes sense. Anyway, while linking the image in
> the scripts.js file, I found it never switched back, yet the code never
> showed any problems. When I found the other way to link images directly in
> JavaScript, I changed the image link code to what would amount to being
> directly in the HTML file itself: The first is the original way I linked it
> the second is the new way.
>
>- (../images/linkedimage.png);
>- from above, changed to
>- (images/linkedimage.png);
>
> After the change above, the code worked. I went back to reading about the
> JavaScript standard, I thought that JavaScript was read like an external CSS
> file was read, where you would have to use the (../) part to link to the
> image if it was in a different folder one level above the current folder.
> (as the first line of code above is.) Is that not how JavaScript works? When
> it comes to linked images?
>
> --
> Brett P.
>
>
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[WSG] JavaScript as External File vs. Internal Code and linking to images

[Brett Patterson]

Recently, I experimented with changing check boxes with JavaScript. If the
user clicked on the words next to the check box, then the box would be
checked, once checked if the user clicked again, then the box would be
unchecked. I wound up having to apply the same code to the check box itself
in order to get it to work. In addition, I added code that would change the
background image of the page to either a solid color, if checked, or back to
the original image, if unchecked. It did not work. So after changing it some
more and still getting no results (I think I even asked here), I did some
research and found another way to link images directly in JavaScript.
I should make note that all the code was in an external file at the time.
The following is the structure of the site:

-container (the name of the containing folder for all files)
||
--index.html (home page where the code will be used)
--scripts (the scripts folder, contains all the scripts)
|
---scripts.js (the scripts file itself)
^^
--styles (stylesheets folder located directly within the container
folder)
||
---styles.css (contains style declarations)
^^
--images  (located directly within the container folder)
|
---linkedimage.png (the image to be changed in page background)

I hope the structure above makes sense. Anyway, while linking the image in
the scripts.js file, I found it never switched back, yet the code never
showed any problems. When I found the other way to link images directly in
JavaScript, I changed the image link code to what would amount to being
directly in the HTML file itself: The first is the original way I linked it
the second is the new way.

   - (../images/linkedimage.png);
   - from above, changed to
   - (images/linkedimage.png);

After the change above, the code worked. I went back to reading about the
JavaScript standard, I thought that JavaScript was read like an external CSS
file was read, where you would have to use the (../) part to link to the
image if it was in a different folder one level above the current folder.
(as the first line of code above is.) Is that not how JavaScript works? When
it comes to linked images?

--
Brett P.


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Re: [WSG] Acceptable JavaScript Coding Practice?

[Brett Patterson]

Thank you all!! After playing around with it some more, and practicing some
suggestions, I forgot how I got it to work in the first place =( !!! But, I
do understand now, what was said. Too many things can go wrong. So, thanks.
And thanks for the links Chris.

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 11:45 AM, Christian Montoya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Brett Patterson
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > To All,
> >
> > I was playing around with a page where I found out that just about
> > everything that I wanted to do I had to use:
> >
> > function namedFunction(layer)
> >  {
> >  var whatever = document.getElementById(layer);
> >  // other code here.
> >  }
> >
> > And I got really annoyed at having to either copy and paste or retype the
> > getElementById(layer) part. So I thought about a way to not have to
> retype
> > it (and make it cross-browser compatible) and to assign it a variable
> that I
> > could use over and over again.
>
> Just about ever Javascript framework does something similar to:
>
> function $(id) {
>  return document.getElementById(id);
> }
>
> So then you can just do:
>
> $('header');
>
> But if you really want cross-browser compatibility and also
> ease-of-use, I would suggest combining unobtrusive practices with a
> decent JS framework. There's a lot of gotchas out there.
>
>
> --
> --
> Christian Montoya
> christianmontoya.net
>
>
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-- 
Brett P.


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Re: [WSG] Acceptable JavaScript Coding Practice?

[Brett Patterson]

Hi Steve,

How could another method change the element the identifier variable is
pointing at? I thought that that could only occur if I changed the id
attribute or the variable itself, or the argument (here
namedFunction('timer')) where timer is the argument?

Hi Chris,

Is not acceptable to put event handlers like onhover and onclick in an HTML
page? Sorry, but I am still learning JavaScript.

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Chris Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Hi Brett,
>
> The problem isn't this:
>
> > var whatever = document.getElementById(layer);
>
> I's this:
>
> > onhover="namedFunction('timer')
>
> What you're doing is mixing JavaScript in the HTML of the page. What you
> should do is use a "listener" on your link to see when it is hovered over.
> This code uses the prototype library [1] but you can do the same thing with
> other libraries such as jQuery and mootools. I recommend you take a look at
> one of those libraries to help you with this stuff. (Warning: I've not
> tested this code!)
>
> In the  of your page:
>
> 
>
> // listen for the page being loaded completely
> Event.observe(window, 'load', HoverListener, false);
>
> function HoverListener()
> {
>// for each link with the class 'hover'
>$$('a.hover').each(function(element)
>{
>// listen for the 'mouseover' event on this link and execute
> the 'RunCode' function when it happens
>Event.observe(element, 'mouseover', RunCode, false);
>// also listen for the 'focus' event on this link for
> keyboard-compatibility
>Event.observe(element, 'focus', RunCode, false);
>});
> }
>
> function RunCode(e)
> {
>// get the element which triggered the event
>var el = Event.findElement(e, 'A');
>
>// now do your code! In this example I'm just alert()ing the text in
> the link
>alert(el.innerHTML);
> }
>
> 
>
> You can apply the class "hover" to any link, it will execute the RunCode
> function above when that link is hovered over (or receives focus from a
> keyboard action):
>
> Hover over this link...
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Chris
>
> [1] http://prototypejs.org
>
>
> This message has been scanned for malware by SurfControl plc.
> www.surfcontrol.com
>
>
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-- 
Brett P.


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[WSG] Acceptable JavaScript Coding Practice?

[Brett Patterson]

To All,

I was playing around with a page where I found out that just about
everything that I wanted to do I had to use:

function namedFunction(layer)
 {
 var whatever = document.getElementById(layer);
* // other code here.*
 }

And I got really annoyed at having to either copy and paste or retype the
getElementById(layer) part. So I thought about a way to not have to retype
it (and make it cross-browser compatible) and to assign it a variable that I
could use over and over again. I used the below:

var identifier = document.getElementById(layer);

function namedFunction()
 {
 var whatever = identifier;
 *// other code here.*
 }

In the html part:



where when you hovered over the image it dropped down a menu. Would this be
acceptable and cross-browser compatible code?

-- 
Brett P.


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Re: [WSG] inline-block effect

[Brett Patterson]

As well as from mine. Did any of the above solve your problem? And what does
OP mean?

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 8:05 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I suspect that the OP miss-stated the problem. From my understanding, he
> wants the BGcolor to extend for _only_ the width of the TEXT, not for the
> entire width of the element.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Stuart Foulstone
> Sent: Tue 12/2/2008 6:59 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] inline-block effect
>
> Am I confused? I thought  was a block-level element.
>
>
>
> On Mon, December 1, 2008 6:32 pm, Andrew famiano wrote:
> > I'm trying to set a background color on a . I want the background to
> > be
> > the same width as the header. Since inline-block isn't supported by all
> > browsers, is there another trick in doing this?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> > ***
> > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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-- 
Brett P.


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[WSG] Streamline a video question

[Brett Patterson]

I am trying to put a video on the Web, but I cannot get it to play
automatically. I want to have them stream so that they will play immediately
instead of lagging a minute or so when clicked on. Is there a
standard/recommended way to do this? Links for reading about it would be
greatly appreciated.

-- 
Brett P.


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Re: [WSG] inline-block effect

[Brett Patterson]

It is. At least as far as I knew it to be. This is why I said to use the
span tag.

On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 1:59 AM, Stuart Foulstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Am I confused? I thought  was a block-level element.
>
>
>
> On Mon, December 1, 2008 6:32 pm, Andrew famiano wrote:
> > I'm trying to set a background color on a . I want the background to
> > be
> > the same width as the header. Since inline-block isn't supported by all
> > browsers, is there another trick in doing this?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> > ***
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-- 
Brett P.


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Re: [WSG] inline-block effect

[Brett Patterson]

or you could just do Your Header Text
Here.
And in your CSS, .hello {background-color: color;}

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Сергей Кириченко <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> 1. float:left
> 2. position:absolute
> 3.insert span with bg into H2
> and non standart trick
> inline-block for all and {display:inline; zoom:1}for < lte IE 7 >
>
> Andrew famiano пишет:
>
>  I'm trying to set a background color on a . I want the background to
>> be the same width as the header. Since inline-block isn't supported by all
>> browsers, is there another trick in doing this?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Brett Patterson]

What Dave?

On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 6:04 AM, Dave Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thu, 2008-11-27 at 10:18 +, David Dorward wrote:
> > Brett Patterson wrote:
> > > Where could I find a good information site about the
> > > document.images.imageId script line, please?
> >
> >
> http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001/level-one-html.html#ID-26809268
> >
> > > And if you are trying to code using codes such as
> > > http://www.kirupa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217502
> > >
> > > Just an example. A quick search to find.
> >
> > A quick search can also find out how to use blink tags and tables for
> > layout. That is a good example of worst practises.
>
> Yes we all know that you should always use
> 
> 
> 
>/* ... */
>.blink{
>text-decoration: blink;
>}
>/* ... */
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> my blinking test
> 
> 
>
> instead of
> 
> my blinking test
> 
>
> Cheers
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Brett Patterson]

Where could I find a good information site about the document.images.imageId
script line, please? And if you are trying to code using codes such as
http://www.kirupa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=217502
Just an example. A quick search to find.

On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:52 PM, David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Brett Patterson wrote:
> > So I thought. But why, when using JavaScript can you not target the ID
> > of an element such as an image?
>
> You can.
>
> > You can target the name, but not the ID,
>
> Incorrect.
>
> > not without document.getElementById
>
> Why would you want to do it without document.getElementById?
>
> Even if you did, document.images.imageId works fine (at least in the
> quick test I performed).
>
>
> --
> David Dorward   <http://dorward.me.uk/>
>
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Re: [WSG] Fw: The Great Firewall of Australia

[Brett Patterson]

1) That, I do believe is a crock of shit!2) If he does anything like that,
he will be dead!!!

--and--

3) Anyone who believes in those ideas are fucked up, stupid, and this I can
promise, will NOT make it in this world, dead or alive!
4) Like I said, I think this a crock of shit, and possibly spam.

On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 9:56 PM, IceKat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Usually I'm suspicious of this stuff but I happen to know that Get Up is
> legit and thought the Aussie members of this list might like to know about
> this.
>
> IceKat.
>
>
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>  Thought you might be interested
>
> Love Mum
>
>
> - Original Message - *From:* GetUp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> *To:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 26, 2008 4:17 PM
> *Subject:* The Great Firewall of Australia
>
>  
> Dear Helen,
>
> Imagine a government proposing an internet censorship system that went
> further than any other democracy - one that made the internet up to 87%
> slower, more expensive, accidentally blocked up to one in 12 legitimate
> sites, and missed the vast majority of inappropriate content.
>
> This is not China, Saudi Arabia or Iran - this is the vision of Senator
> Stephen Conroy for Australia. *Testing has already begun.* The community
> must now move to stop this plan. *Click here to save the net:*
>
> *www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet*
>
> The system that Senator Conroy wants is *a mandatory filter of all
> internet traffic*, with the government of the day able to add any unwanted
> site to a secret blacklist. Already, the wrangling has begun for the
> inclusion of material relating to anorexia, euthanasia and gambling. It
> isn't difficult to see *the scheme is open to abuse*.
>
> Even when it comes to preventing child p-rnography, the filter will not
> prevent peer-to-peer sharing and is very simple to sidestep. *The
> protection of our children is vitally important* - that's why we can't
> afford to waste funds on this deeply flawed system. We should be
> concentrating on solutions that are more effective and won't undermine our
> digital economy or our democratic freedoms.
>
> This must rank as one of the most ill-thought decisions of the Rudd
> Government's first year in power. We need to act now to *tell big brother
> the mandatory internet filter is incompatible with the principles of a
> modern democracy and modern economy*:
>
> *www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet*
>
> Our government should be doing all in its power to take Australia into the
> 21st century economy, and to protect our children. *This proposed internet
> censorship does neither.* Take action to save the net today.
>
> Thanks for being a part of the solution,
> The GetUp team
>
> PS - The proposed scheme will pass all internet traffic through a
> government filter - it's like asking Australia Post to filter every letter
> sent in Australia. *Click here to save the 
> net.*
>
> __
>
> GetUp is an independent, not-for-profit community campaigning group. We use
> new technology to empower Australians to have their say on important
> national issues. We receive no political party or government funding, and
> every campaign we run is entirely supported by voluntary donations. If you'd
> like to contribute to *help fund GetUp's work*, please *donate 
> now!
> * If you have trouble with any links in this email, please go directly to
> www.getup.org.au . To unsubscribe
> from GetUp, please click 
> here
> .
>
> Authorised by Simon Sheikh, Level 2, 294 Pitt St, Sydney NSW 2000[image:
> tracking]
>
> --
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.10/1812 - Release Date: 11/25/2008
> 7:53 PM
>
>
>


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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Brett Patterson]

So I thought. But why, when using JavaScript can you not target the ID of an
element such as an image? You can target the name, but not the ID, not
without document.getElementById-blah blah blah, so how can it duplicate
it? It seems then, that is does not.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 1:32 PM, David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Brett Patterson wrote:
> > I don't why, but XHTML (I am using Strict 1.0 in the below examples),
> > has deprecated the use of the name attribute. That being said, my
> > question is, "Why was the name attribute deprecated?".
>
> Because (on the elements upon which it was deprecated) it did nothing
> except duplicate the functionality of the id attribute.
>
>
> --
> David Dorward   <http://dorward.me.uk/>
>
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Re: [WSG] HTML/XHTML/XML - Question about the future of.

[Brett Patterson]

Sorry, forgot to add, that the purpose of XHTML, from what some of the top
designers and working group members have stated, I may have misinterpreted,
but XHTML was built to help designers/developers transition from HTML to
XML.

On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Brett Patterson <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> From what I have read so far, you are pretty much agreeing with me. Hence,
> David, you said and I quote, "HTML 5 is "Everything you need to know to
> build a browser" with some definition of HTML, XHTML, DOM, SQL and HTTP in
> it.", therefore, HTML5 (not to be confused with xHTML or XHTML), is being
> phased out. It would have to be, especially considering the previous
> statement. If they are including some definition of HTML with XHTML, then
> they are trying to get HTML designers used to using the simplistical form of
> XHTML in XML syntax/serialisation/yada yada yada whatever, correct? SQL is a
> database manipulation language is it not? Like XML? So, all in all, HTML
> developers will move more into what the "purpose" of XHTML is, correct? And
> it would have to unify the schism if it is to include all of the above
> stated, is that not right? Because everything that has been said seems to
> agree with I originally stated and questioned. How does it not?
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 8:12 AM, David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> > Perhaps I have missed something important: are we saying that HTML5 is
>> > essentially two different languages?
>>
>> HTML5 is "Everything you need to know to build a browser" with some
>> definition of HTML, XHTML, DOM, SQL and HTTP in it.
>>
>> > I thought that it was supposed to unify the schism between HTML and
>> XHTML.
>>
>> It certainly doesn't do that.
>>
>> --
>> David Dorward   <http://dorward.me.uk/>
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Brett P.
>



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Re: [WSG] HTML/XHTML/XML - Question about the future of.

[Brett Patterson]

>From what I have read so far, you are pretty much agreeing with me. Hence,
David, you said and I quote, "HTML 5 is "Everything you need to know to
build a browser" with some definition of HTML, XHTML, DOM, SQL and HTTP in
it.", therefore, HTML5 (not to be confused with xHTML or XHTML), is being
phased out. It would have to be, especially considering the previous
statement. If they are including some definition of HTML with XHTML, then
they are trying to get HTML designers used to using the simplistical form of
XHTML in XML syntax/serialisation/yada yada yada whatever, correct? SQL is a
database manipulation language is it not? Like XML? So, all in all, HTML
developers will move more into what the "purpose" of XHTML is, correct? And
it would have to unify the schism if it is to include all of the above
stated, is that not right? Because everything that has been said seems to
agree with I originally stated and questioned. How does it not?

On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 8:12 AM, David Dorward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Perhaps I have missed something important: are we saying that HTML5 is
> > essentially two different languages?
>
> HTML5 is "Everything you need to know to build a browser" with some
> definition of HTML, XHTML, DOM, SQL and HTTP in it.
>
> > I thought that it was supposed to unify the schism between HTML and
> XHTML.
>
> It certainly doesn't do that.
>
> --
> David Dorward   
>
>
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Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Brett Patterson]

That is strange, the examples didn't show. Any idea as to why?

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:56 PM, Brett Patterson <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I don't why, but XHTML (I am using Strict 1.0 in the below examples), has
> deprecated the use of the name attribute. That being said, my question is,
> "Why was the name attribute deprecated?".
>
> --
> Brett P.
>
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[WSG] the Name attribute

[Brett Patterson]

I don't why, but XHTML (I am using Strict 1.0 in the below examples), has
deprecated the use of the name attribute. That being said, my question is,
"Why was the name attribute deprecated?".

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Re: [WSG] HTML/XHTML/XML - Question about the future of.

[Brett Patterson]

>From the few recent posts, I have become so far confused, as anyone would as
to why, Gunlaug, you keep stating xHTML5 or as above you say XHTML5? HTML
and xHTML/XHTML are different. xHTML is XHTML, albeit 1.0 or 1.1 or 2.0 etc.
So, is it a typo?

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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

[Brett Patterson]

OK. So, lets agree that (Start here quoting you:::If you're not using a
decent compressor then png's are 15% - 20% oversized.:::end quoting you
here.) we are both right. I am simply stating as such without using a
compressor (Start quoting you:::If you're not using a decent compressor then
png's are 15% - 20% oversized.:::), there for gif file-size IS smaller. In
which case I am right, especially here if you are required to use GIFs
either way, for backwards compatibility. Note, the linked site talks about
IE 5.5 and 6 --- http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bobosola/

To Andrew, one of the smartest things I have read to date. Agreed!!!

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 12:19 PM, Foskett, Mike
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> "There is an issue where a PNG will not look exactly the same in IE vrs
> FF"
>
> Never come across that, have you a reference or example?
> I have come across something similar with Safari and Photoshop images
> not blending.
> But it wasn't png related it was a gamma setting in Photoshop.
>
>
> Brett:
> PNGgauntlet is freeware: http://brh.numbera.com/software/pnggauntlet/
> As is PNGcrush: http://pmt.sourceforge.net/pngcrush/
> If you're not using a decent compressor then png's are 15% - 20%
> oversized.
>
> I'll have to agree to disagree with you on gif file-size being smaller.
>
>
> Mike Foskett
> http://websemantics.co.uk/
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: 25 November 2008 15:59
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that
> have no height declared
>
> There is an issue where a PNG will not look exactly the same in IE vrs
> FF
>
> So if you try to match a background with the PNG you may have issues
> between the browsers
>
>
> having said that I love PNGs myself
>
> > On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Foskett, Mike
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Sorry Brett, you're wrong.
> >>
> >> The png format will handle three levels of bit-depth including 8-bit
> >> which
> >> is the same as the gif format.
> >>
> >> The references you state are somewhat outdated and don't consider the
> >> different methods of compression that a png will handle natively.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I suggest you try a few comparisons out yourself.
> >>
> >> They don't always work out smaller but most often they do.
> >
> > Seconded. You can make 8 bit PNGs with as little as 8 colors or as
> > many as 256. Just try "Save for Web & Devices" in Photoshop CS3. I
> > don't even bother with GIFs anymore, the 8-bit PNGs come out smaller
> > almost every time.
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Christian Montoya
> > christianmontoya.net
> >
> >
> > ***
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> life is certain
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> ~furry lewis
>
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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

[Brett Patterson]

First of all, No I am not! Second I have tried out differences. Notice the
difference in file sizes. Thirdly, I did not say that png did not support
8-bit, nowhere does it say that, it does however say that GIF only supports
a maximum of 256 colors. Fourthly, Todd your argument is off subject,
because neither MIke nor me ever mentioned it looking best, although I would
have to agree, PNG most certainly does look best, depending on the image.
And fifthly, Mike, sorry, but no, without using a PNGGauntlet or whatever, I
am not. All I simply stated is that gif files have to be smaller, (probably
should have said before) without using pnggauntlet. And I say without,
because anyone else may not have, or know where to get it. Well...and
sixthly, I use PNGs just as much you, but there are a lot of times when PNGs
will not cut the job, and GIFs are, again, majority of the time smaller and
better.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:37 AM, Christian Montoya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Foskett, Mike
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Sorry Brett, you're wrong.
> >
> > The png format will handle three levels of bit-depth including 8-bit
> which
> > is the same as the gif format.
> >
> > The references you state are somewhat outdated and don't consider the
> > different methods of compression that a png will handle natively.
> >
> >
> >
> > I suggest you try a few comparisons out yourself.
> >
> > They don't always work out smaller but most often they do.
>
> Seconded. You can make 8 bit PNGs with as little as 8 colors or as
> many as 256. Just try "Save for Web & Devices" in Photoshop CS3. I
> don't even bother with GIFs anymore, the 8-bit PNGs come out smaller
> almost every time.
>
> --
> --
> Christian Montoya
> christianmontoya.net
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Which is read first? Scripts or Styles?

[Brett Patterson]

Ooh! Thanks for the link. Valuable reading. I do not, however, understand
the ETags. So, I guess I must do a lot more research. Thanks.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 7:14 AM, Foskett, Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I'd add a furtherance to Steve Sounders / Yahoo's recommendations and
> use the @import method for style sheets and not link.
>
> Mike Foskett
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Dave Hall
> Sent: 24 November 2008 21:07
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Which is read first? Scripts or Styles?
>
> On Mon, 2008-11-24 at 10:24 -0500, Brett Patterson wrote:
> > I have no idea why, but for some reason I cannot remember which is
> > read first! Are scripts or styles read first?
>
> As others have mentioned, they are read in the order they occur in the
> document.
>
> >  And which is the recommended order to list them? Styles or Scripts
> > first?
>
> Yahoo's performance best practice guide recommends styles in the head
> and scripts as the last thing before the  in a document. See
> http://developer.yahoo.com/performance/rules.html#css_top for more info.
>
> Cheers
>
> Dave
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

[Brett Patterson]

No, I may have to disagree. GIF files are (a majority of them, if not all,
are) smaller. They have to be. Considering GIF only supports up to a maximum
of 256 colors. (it is 8-bit). Try

http://www.sitepoint.com/article/gif-jpg-png-whats-difference/
---or---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_Interchange_Format

You should never have to use a pngGauntlet-type compressor.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 7:10 AM, Foskett, Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> While I cannot help with the spacing issue I do strongly suggest using
> png rather than gif.
> File size is smaller especially when run through pngGauntlet.
>
> Mike Foskett
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of tee
> Sent: 25 November 2008 10:48
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that
> have no height declared
>
>
> On Nov 24, 2008, at 3:24 AM, Robert O'Rourke wrote:
> >
> > If I remember rightly if you are able to save the image with a
> > transparent background it keeps the file size lower because a
> > transparent pixel takes less space than a pixel with colour
> > information. You can put a coloured outline around the sprites
> > themselves to avoid jagged edges in IE.
>
>
> Thanks all for the tips. The htacces ones is especially useful :-)
>
> tee
>
>
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>
> ---Warning
>
> This e-mail is from outside Tesco - check that it is genuine. Tesco may
> monitor and record all e-mails.
>
>
>
>  Disclaimer 
> This is a confidential email.  Tesco may monitor and record all emails.
>  The views expressed in this email are those of the sender and not Tesco.
>
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Re: [WSG] First Attempt

[Brett Patterson]

As someone who has read the post, in Dreamweaver 8, to follow along with
Todd's statement, choose (File --> New) and under the General tab choose
Starter Pages. You may choose from the list DW8 has. The rest I agree with.
Try learning some of the code from the pre-existing sites, modify one
section of code in Code/Design view, hit the refresh button in the
properties menu at the bottom, and see/study the results.

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 9:19 AM, Todd Budnikas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> As someone who hasn't opened dreamweaver in years and codes css and xhtml
> by hand, but learned to build websites in Dreamweaver, I would say Rachel's
> approach might be difficult for some. This being your first website Kate, I
> would say to use some of the better tools Dreamweaver offers and learn from
> them. For instance in Dreamweaver CS3 you can create a new html page (File >
> New), choose New HTML page type and then you can select from some css based
> "Layouts". I think that's a great place to start. From there you should read
> up on some articles, pay attention to what happens as you experiment and
> modify things, etc.
>
> Design-based approach in Dreamweaver can be detrimental if you never learn
> what's behind it, but I think it's a great way to get started as long as you
> learn from what it offers. I'll probably get some backlash on this. I'm not
> saying Dreamweaver even does a really good job of writing markup or css when
> you are working in design-view, but it gives a good place to start. Also,
> I'd recommend using "Split" view so you can start to see the code changes
> and get comfortable with it as you interact with the design.
>
> On Nov 24, 2008, at 7:22 AM, Rachel Radford wrote:
>
>  Hi Kate,
>>
>> For a first webpage you're doing pretty well - you have some images
>> there and have changed the background colour and text colour on the
>> page.
>>
>> However, using the Dreamweaver design view approach will not give you
>> the best end results, or teach you the best practices.  Peter's link
>> gives you some really good tips on moving beyond the elementary use of
>> Dreamweaver's design view, and point 5 - validate your page to find
>> basic errors is a definite step you don't want to miss.
>>
>> Other than that, you may want to look at following online tutorials.
>> For example, your menus can be enhanced by following some easy steps
>> (for example,
>> http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listutorial/horizontal_introduction.htm)
>> which you can then edit as you like.  You will be able to find many
>> tutorials for page layout, table styling, menus etc. by searching Google
>> and people here will also be able to give you pointers on good
>> tutorials.
>>
>> Then moving forward when you feel more confident with editing the html &
>> css from these tutorials, you will be able to build your own menus and
>> eventually the entire website from scratch based on your custom design
>> :)
>>
>> All the best,
>> Rachel
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> I followed with another messge for the link but here it is:
>> http://www.jungaling.com/katalinadesigns/index.html
>> Sorry.!
>> Kate
>>
>>

 My first attempt at Web design but only first step to any design and

>>>
>>  wondered what you think so far as to:
 Top menu/color/images/table/..gently *grin

 In IE the page color is white so need to find how to get the correct

>>>
>>  color. This color works in FF ok - #172228
 I am working in DW8 on WinXP

 I have yet to get to grips with CSS yet but learning as I go along.
 Thanks
 Kate.

>>>
>
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Re: [WSG] your best practise for CSS sprites for elements that have no height declared

[Brett Patterson]

Yes, and colors in a row or horizontal line, so to speak, compress better
depending on the compression mechanism. Just say that jpeg files
read/compress horizontal, and gif files read/compress vertical, not sure if
that is exactly correct, just an example. But iii (if the size is 1
pixel wide for each i and 2 long for each dot and 6 long for each line, with
3 pixels spacing between each one) would be smaller as a gif file. While
iii would be larger as a jpeg file due to the stops in the color
changes. The less the compression mechanism has to stop storing a particular
color (i.e. #000, or black), the smaller the file size will be.

On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 10:01 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > If I remember rightly if you are able to save the image with a
> > transparent background it keeps the file size lower because a
> > transparent pixel takes less space than a pixel with colour
> > information.
>
>
> It may be possible to get better compression on a file that contains
> lots of pixels of the same colour, but all pixels require the same basic
> storage, regardless of whether they are transparent or not!
>
> Mike
>
>
> Mike Brockington
> Web Development Specialist
>
> www.calcResult.com
> www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk
> www.edinburgh.gov.uk
>
> This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the
> author alone.
>
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[WSG] Which is read first? Scripts or Styles?

[Brett Patterson]

I have no idea why, but for some reason I cannot remember which is read
first! Are scripts or styles read first? And which is the recommended order
to list them? Styles or Scripts first?

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Re: [WSG] XHTML Standard question

[Brett Patterson]

OK. For the last almost 24 hours, I have been trying to get the link to the
results posted on the server to work, but have failed miserably. The results
were made public to subscribers of the newsletters they mail out every
month. They have not yet decided to use the Internet to mail out the
newsletters. Just post and allow pay-per-one-time-view. I had to request
permission to have a free link up this time. Now the server will not
cooperate. Still working on it.

To Luke, I did make a mistake in the way I read what was said. They have it
turned on by default but would PREFER not to.

And to Ben, I read what you posted and the links as well, thanks. I guess I
just didn't pay enough attention when searching.

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Ben Buchanan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
>
> So exactly what behavior is mandated for UAs implementing HTML5 if
>> a form is submitted with a 'required' element unsatisfied?
>
> If I'm reading
> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#required0 correctly,
> the form just won't submit if a "required" field is empty. Not sure about
> the UI feedback and so on, although looking at
> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-forms/current-work/#form-submission I
> think the onus will be on the developer to handle error feedback (ie. same
> as now).
>
> cheers,
>
> Ben
>
> --
> --- 
> --- The future has arrived; it's just not
> --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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[WSG] HTML/XHTML/XML - Question about the future of.

[Brett Patterson]

I have, rather unfortunately, entered into an argument with a couple
colleagues about the future of HTML/XHTML/XML. So, I was wondering, based on
everyone's expertise level here who is right.

I say that in the years coming, maybe 20 years from now, who knows, but
eventually HTML and XHTML will be replaced by XML.

The other two say differently, more along the lines that they will never do
away with HTML or XHTML.

So...that being said who is right?

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Re: [WSG] XHTML Standard question

[Brett Patterson]

OK. I had forgotten you could use server-side validation. Thanks.

On Wed, Nov 19, 2008 at 6:52 PM, Anthony Ziebell <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Remember to use server side validation and you don't need to worry about
> rewriting standards :)
>
>
> Brett Patterson wrote:
>
> I know that most, if not possible to say all, Web page designers use
> JavaScript for form validation. During a recent poll done by a few local
> colleges, 41.2% of the people who responded stated that they would rather
> not have to enable JavaScript, but on rare occasion they do for certain
> sites that require JS for use of their forms to buy or sign up for
> something. After reading this, I did some research, and could not find any
> tag attributes for form elements that would not require the use JS for form
> validation.
>
> Therefore, I was wondering if it would be feasible to include a standard
> that would use a syntax similar (does not actually *have* to be this way)
> to selected="selected"? In which case, the syntax would be
> required="required". Or, if it is an email input (i.e. Your e-mail
> address:).
>
> --
> Brett P.
>
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[WSG] XHTML Standard question

[Brett Patterson]

I know that most, if not possible to say all, Web page designers use
JavaScript for form validation. During a recent poll done by a few local
colleges, 41.2% of the people who responded stated that they would rather
not have to enable JavaScript, but on rare occasion they do for certain
sites that require JS for use of their forms to buy or sign up for
something. After reading this, I did some research, and could not find any
tag attributes for form elements that would not require the use JS for form
validation.

Therefore, I was wondering if it would be feasible to include a standard
that would use a syntax similar (does not actually *have* to be this way) to
selected="selected"? In which case, the syntax would be required="required".
Or, if it is an email input (i.e. Your e-mail address:).

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[WSG] Another Question about JavaScript.

[Brett Patterson]

I hate to ask another question about JavaScript, but I need help with ONE
more thing, please?

*Using the following JS code in XHTML Transitional:*
function proc()
 {
 var num = document.heartSearch.hsQty.value*8.95;
 document.hSearchoutput.hsTotal.value = r2(num);
 }

function prc2()
 {
 var num = document.youKnow.cutSandHours.value*12.17;
 document.outme.soter.value = r2(num);
 }

function r2(n)
 {
 ans = n * 1000;
 ans = Math.round(ans /10) + "";
 while (ans.length < 3) {ans = "0" + ans;}
 len = ans.length;
 ans = ans.substring(0,len-2) + "." + ans.substring(len-2,len);
 return ans;
 }

*and the following HTML code in XHTML Transitional:*



0
3











1
5
6













How would I get the last form to show the SUM of both the id="hsTotal" and
the id="soter" text fields?

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Re: [WSG] Reset form fields to default values when user clicks the refresh/reload button in there Browser, not on the page.

[Brett Patterson]

Ah, ok, I got it figured out thanks.

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 1:53 PM, Andrew Maben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> On Nov 13, 2008, at 1:32 PM, Brett Patterson wrote:
>
> Sorry, but no. If you look in FF3 it keeps the text entered in the form
> field when page is refreshed the same. It does not remove it.
>
> There are no code examples, and I have exhausted the library and internet
> resources.
>
>
> Well, forgive me if I go into grumpy old fart mode here, but your problem
> is only tangentially related to Web Standards at best. And while I can be
> grudgingly appreciative of your initiative in submitting your school
> assignment here for an answer I think:
> A) You have actually already received in previous answers quite enough
> clues to work out your own answer
> B) If your teacher isn't utterly incompetent, he won't have set a task that
> he hasn't already either provided an answer to, or at least pointers to
> where to look for an answer.
>
> That said, I'm sure anyone here would be happy to review your eventual
> solution for standards compliance.
>
> Please take this in good part, and good luck,
>
>
> Andrew
>
> 352.870.6661
> www.andrewmaben.net
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> *"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need
> instructions."*
>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Reset form fields to default values when user clicks the refresh/reload button in there Browser, not on the page.

[Brett Patterson]

Ok, thanks. I'll try that.

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 1:40 PM, Todd Budnikas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> i realize that. I'm saying use this behavior to notice the page has been
> refreshed and call a function that resets the fields you wish to have this
> action. I'm not claiming that script solves your problem, but would be a
> gateway for you to write something that does.
>
> On Nov 13, 2008, at 1:32 PM, Brett Patterson wrote:
>
> Sorry, but no. If you look in FF3 it keeps the text entered in the form
> field when page is refreshed the same. It does not remove it.
>
> There are no code examples, and I have exhausted the library and internet
> resources.
>
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Todd Budnikas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
>> sorry all, does this not solve it?
>>
>> I guess use onbeforeunload to trigger an event?
>> http://www.4guysfromrolla.com/demos/OnBeforeUnloadDemo1.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 13, 2008, at 1:11 PM, Tom ('Mas) Pickering wrote:
>>
>> Brett -
>>
>> Here's the problem:  Different browsers handle that differently.  Firefox
>> 2+ won't reset the fields on Reload, only on Shift-Reload.  IE 6.0+ resets
>> on a simple Refresh.  What is the teacher using?
>>
>> At 11:34 AM 11/13/2008, you wrote:
>>
>> To Andrew:
>>
>> What I am trying to do is get a form field to reset a value back to the
>> default selected when a user clicks on the refresh or reload button in the
>> browser, not the page (meaning I am not using  to
>> reset the fields). So, for example, lets say this code is:
>>
>> 
>> 
>> 0
>> 1
>> 2
>> 3
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>
>> As you see the code above displayed in the browser, 0 will automatically
>> be shown in the dropdown box (let's call it the default#). But, if the user
>> changes the default# to let's say 2, and then decides to reset the page for
>> whatever reason using the browser's default refresh or reload button, the
>> user-selected 2, will change back to default# (or 0).
>>
>> The reason is because for some reason, unknown to me, it is a major part
>> of my grade.
>>
>>
>
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Re: [WSG] Reset form fields to default values when user clicks the refresh/reload button in there Browser, not on the page.

[Brett Patterson]

Sorry, but no. If you look in FF3 it keeps the text entered in the form
field when page is refreshed the same. It does not remove it.

There are no code examples, and I have exhausted the library and internet
resources.

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Todd Budnikas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> sorry all, does this not solve it?
>
> I guess use onbeforeunload to trigger an event?
> http://www.4guysfromrolla.com/demos/OnBeforeUnloadDemo1.htm
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 13, 2008, at 1:11 PM, Tom ('Mas) Pickering wrote:
>
> Brett -
>
> Here's the problem:  Different browsers handle that differently.  Firefox
> 2+ won't reset the fields on Reload, only on Shift-Reload.  IE 6.0+ resets
> on a simple Refresh.  What is the teacher using?
>
> At 11:34 AM 11/13/2008, you wrote:
>
> To Andrew:
>
> What I am trying to do is get a form field to reset a value back to the
> default selected when a user clicks on the refresh or reload button in the
> browser, not the page (meaning I am not using  to
> reset the fields). So, for example, lets say this code is:
>
> 
> 
> 0
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 
> 
> 
>
> As you see the code above displayed in the browser, 0 will automatically be
> shown in the dropdown box (let's call it the default#). But, if the user
> changes the default# to let's say 2, and then decides to reset the page for
> whatever reason using the browser's default refresh or reload button, the
> user-selected 2, will change back to default# (or 0).
>
> The reason is because for some reason, unknown to me, it is a major part of
> my grade.
>
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Todd Budnikas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>  I guess use onbeforeunload to trigger an event?
>  http://www.4guysfromrolla.com/demos/OnBeforeUnloadDemo1.htm
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Reset form fields to default values when user clicks the refresh/reload button in there Browser, not on the page.

[Brett Patterson]

To Andrew:

What I am trying to do is get a form field to reset a value back to the
default selected when a user clicks on the refresh or reload button in the
browser, not the page (meaning I am not using  to
reset the fields). So, for example, lets say this code is:



0
1
2
3




As you see the code above displayed in the browser, 0 will automatically be
shown in the dropdown box (let's call it the default#). But, if the user
changes the default# to let's say 2, and then decides to reset the page for
whatever reason using the browser's default refresh or reload button, the
user-selected 2, will change back to default# (or 0).

The reason is because for some reason, unknown to me, it is a major part of
my grade.

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 12:00 PM, Todd Budnikas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I guess use onbeforeunload to trigger an event?
> http://www.4guysfromrolla.com/demos/OnBeforeUnloadDemo1.htm
>
>
> On Nov 13, 2008, at 11:40 AM, Brett Patterson wrote:
>
> The Reload Current Page button in Firefox, and I think the Refresh Page
> button in IE, and whatever those buttons are called in other browsers. NOT
> with an input button to reset. Thanks.
>
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 11:31 AM, Todd Budnikas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
>> Do you just mean a form reset input button? > value="Reset!">? You lost me on the "but instead using the browser's
>> button.. what button?
>>
>>
>> How do I get a form field to reset itself back to its default value if the
>> user has changed it?
>>
>> Without clicking on a refresh/reload button on the page but instead using
>> the browser's button.
>>
>> *The XHTML Transitional code I have is*:
>>
>> 
>>   
>>   
>> 
>> 0
>> 1
>> 2
>> 3
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [WSG] Reset form fields to default values when user clicks the refresh/reload button in there Browser, not on the page.

[Brett Patterson]

The Reload Current Page button in Firefox, and I think the Refresh Page
button in IE, and whatever those buttons are called in other browsers. NOT
with an input button to reset. Thanks.

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 11:31 AM, Todd Budnikas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Do you just mean a form reset input button?  value="Reset!">? You lost me on the "but instead using the browser's
> button.. what button?
> On Nov 13, 2008, at 11:00 AM, Brett Patterson wrote:
>
> How do I get a form field to reset itself back to its default value if the
> user has changed it?
>
> Without clicking on a refresh/reload button on the page but instead using
> the browser's button.
>
> *The XHTML Transitional code I have is*:
>
> 
>   
>   
> 
> 0
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Reset form fields to default values when user clicks the refresh/reload button in there Browser, not on the page.

[Brett Patterson]

The Reload Current Page button in Firefox, and I think the Refresh Page
button in IE, and whatever those buttons are called in other browsers. NOT
with an input button to reset. Thanks.

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 11:31 AM, Todd Budnikas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Do you just mean a form reset input button?  value="Reset!">? You lost me on the "but instead using the browser's
> button.. what button?
> On Nov 13, 2008, at 11:00 AM, Brett Patterson wrote:
>
> How do I get a form field to reset itself back to its default value if the
> user has changed it?
>
> Without clicking on a refresh/reload button on the page but instead using
> the browser's button.
>
> *The XHTML Transitional code I have is*:
>
> 
>   
>   
> 
> 0
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
>
> ***
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Re: [WSG] Reset form fields to default values when user clicks the refresh/reload button in there Browser, not on the page.

[Brett Patterson]

The Reload Current Page button in Firefox, and I think the Refresh Page
button in IE, and whatever those buttons are called in other browsers. NOT
with an input button to reset. Thanks.

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 11:31 AM, Todd Budnikas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Do you just mean a form reset input button?  value="Reset!">? You lost me on the "but instead using the browser's
> button.. what button?
> On Nov 13, 2008, at 11:00 AM, Brett Patterson wrote:
>
> How do I get a form field to reset itself back to its default value if the
> user has changed it?
>
> Without clicking on a refresh/reload button on the page but instead using
> the browser's button.
>
> *The XHTML Transitional code I have is*:
>
> 
>   
>   
> 
> 0
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
>
> ***
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[WSG] Reset form fields to default values when user clicks the refresh/reload button in there Browser, not on the page.

[Brett Patterson]

How do I get a form field to reset itself back to its default value if the
user has changed it?

Without clicking on a refresh/reload button on the page but instead using
the browser's button.

*The XHTML Transitional code I have is*:


  
  

0
1
2
3










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Re: [WSG] Question on servers and Email campaign

[Brett Patterson]

I agree with everyone!!! NEVER EVER give out your information like that.
Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_engineering_(computer_security)because
it sounds like a Social-Engineering attack!!

You are right.

On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 10:33 PM, Andrew Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> >> I Was called and asked for my server's root access information so that
> they
> >> can download their Software onto my server for my clients email
> campaign.
>
> that would be their software that sets up a mail relay for the
> purposes of illegal spamming?
> ...no, that would just be me being paranoid.
>
> You did right!
>
> --
> Andrew Harris
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.woowoowoo.com
>
> ~~~ <*>< ~~~
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Who are the "Away on leave" Notices from? THREAD CLOSED, THREAD CLOSED, THREAD CLOSED!

[Brett Patterson]

And I'll bring the empty belly.

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 5:29 PM, Andrew Boyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> And I'll bring the beer! :)
>
> Sent from my iPhone.
>
>
>
>
> On 06/11/2008, at 8:53 PM, 8bits Media <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>  Russ,
>>
>> Will you be bringing a cake?
>>
>> Nick.
>>
>> On 6 Nov 2008, at 21:44, russ - maxdesign wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If there are any more posts to this thread I will have to come to your
>>> houses, one at a time...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [WSG] Question about change color of numbers in OL list

[Brett Patterson]

Change the OL tag color:red, and then use the span color:blue for your span.

On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 2:44 PM, Антон Грахов <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi to all,
>
> how to change color of numbers in items OL list, but do not change
> color of text in items?
>
> My idea with inner :
>
> CSS code:
> li { color: red; }
> li span { color: blue; }
>
> HTML code:
> 
>  Item1
>  Item2
> 
>
> Any idea, but without ?
>
> --
> Thanks and regards,
> Anton Grakhov
> Russia
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Who are the "Away on leave" Notices from?

[Brett Patterson]

Return Receipt

  Your   RE: [WSG] Who are the "Away on leave" Notices from?
  document:

  wasChristie Mason
  received
  by:

  at:11/05/2008 13:41:14
_

Sorry, could not resist. ;)

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Christie Mason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Yep, but they're just a little less annoying than read receipts.
>
> Christie Mason
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Dennis Lapcewich
> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 3:41 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: RE: [WSG] Who are the "Away on leave" Notices from?
>
>
> Return Receipt
>
>   Your   RE: [WSG] Who are the "Away on leave" Notices from?
>   document:
>
>   wasDennis Lapcewich/R6/USDAFS
>   received
>   by:
>
>   at:11/05/2008 13:41:14
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] Who are the "Away on leave" Notices from?

[Brett Patterson]

Oh. I have always just set mine up to not send out for specific e-mail
addresses. Sorry, did not mean to exasperate the issue. I did not know it
was one.

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Just auto replies from list members away on leave (who have set their 'out
> of office' setting to 'on')
>
> It is annoying, but in saying that I'm probably guilty of it at times ;)
>
>
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[WSG] Who are the "Away on leave" Notices from?

[Brett Patterson]

Are these away on leave notices from people who manage the
webstandardsgroup.org site? Or individual people? It is kinda getting
annoying?
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Re: [WSG] URL length best practices [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]

[Brett Patterson]

What?

On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 11:39 PM, Ashley Butler <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Please stop emailing me!
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Joe Ortenzi
> Sent: Wednesday, 5 November 2008 3:30 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] URL length best practices [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
>
> Sorry for being a bit off topic but.
>
> I think you missed a point about friendly URLs
> For each of these examples you state, you really don't want to burden
> your marketing team with urls like your example:
>
> www.chrisandhispetstore.com/what_i_keep_in_stock/supplies_for_birds/cages_an
> d_ornaments/full_product_list.htm
>
> when any sensible marketer will tell you:
> www.chrisandhispetstore.com/products
>
> is where you should point them, and then let them find "cages" in one
> click on that page., maybe even at
> www.chrisandhispetstore.com/products/cages
>
> the long and friendly URL is really for the final page, which should
> not bury a full product list so deeply and should be titled /
> product_list.html anyway.
>
> BAD IA IMHO
>
> Joe
>
>
> OK, in marketing terms you can easily create your own TinyURL by
> redirecting vimportant traffic through a rewrite.
>
>
> On 05/11/2008, at 12:40 PM, Chris Vickery wrote:
>
> > More reasons to keep 'em short:
> > 1. Makes it easy to quote URL (maybe over the phone)
> > 2. I've seen a few email or publication programs break URLs where
> > there's a line return, so breaks the hyperlink
> > 3. Makes layout difficult for desktop publishers and marketing ie.
>
> www.chrisandhispetstore.com/what_i_keep_in_stock/supplies_for_birds/cages_an
> d_ornaments/full_product_list.htm
> > 4. If it's longer than the width of the address bar then the whole
> > URL is not visible.
> >
> > Accessibility isn't just about clean code and text to speech
> > readers. It's about good IA and making everything generally better
> > to get at.
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of silky
> > Sent: Wednesday, 5 November 2008 11:28 AM
> > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> > Subject: Re: [WSG] URL length best practices
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:21 AM, Joe Ortenzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> other than making sense and having a strong  connection with the
> >> page the
> >> content is on, there is no direct reason, other than being a bit
> >> sensible
> >> about it, I wouldn't advise testing out the 2048 characters.
> >
> > of course there is a good reason: so it's typable. not every url
> > should required to be clicked to be gotten to.
> >
> > --
> > noon silky
> > http://skillsforvilla.tumblr.com/
> > http://www.themonkeynet.com/armada/
> >
> >
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>
> 
> Joseph Ortenzi
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> +61 (0)434 047 804
> http://www.typingthevoid.com
> http://twitter.com/wheelyweb
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/jortenzi
> Skype:wheelyweb
>
> http://au.movember.com/mospace/1714401
>
>
>
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>
>

Re: [WSG] URL length best practices

[Brett Patterson]

I don't think it matters. Not as long as readable characters are used, like
& in place of &.

On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Todd Budnikas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Wondering if people have insights into the length of a url for an article,
> and whether or not it is recommended to complete the name of an article in
> the url. For instance:
>
> http://egovau.blogspot.com/2008/10/do-collaborative-online-groups-need-to.html
>
> The name of this article is "Do collaborative online groups need to be
> successful". The url above strips out "be-successful". This may be the part
> of Blogger, or the author, but I've seen it in other instances with
> different Content Management systems as well. I personally would have added
> the additional words. Thoughts?
>
>
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Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please - let blocks

[Brett Patterson]

OK. Thanks

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 11:00 AM, Keryx Web <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Brett Patterson skrev:
>
>> I like that explanation. I get it now. Thanks. One more quick question
>> though, what is a let-block, in general? Thanks. That really does make it a
>> lot easier to understand.
>>
>> Brett
>>
>
> Normally JavaScript does not have block scope.
>
> var foo = 1;
> {
>foo = 2;
> }
> alert(foo); // will give you 2
>
> Let-blocks will provide block-scope on an opt in basis:
>
> var foo = 1;
> {
>let foo = 2;
>alert(foo); // 2
>let bar = 3;
> }
> alert(foo); // 1
> alert(bar); // undefined
>
> Block scope is one feature that makes it easy to write interoperable code.
> My variables won't mess with your variables. Today we use function scope to
> accomplish the same thing:
>
> var foo = 1;
> (function() {
>var foo = 2;
>alert(foo); // 2
> })() // last parenthesis invokes anonymous function
> alert(foo); // 1
>
>
> Let blocks are really handy in for loops:
>
> var i = "Hi there";
> for ( let i = 0; i < 10; i++) {
>alert(i); // 0 - 9
> }
> alert(i); // "Hi there"
>
> Self executing functions have another kind of power through closures and
> possible return values, so the two do not completely overlap.
>
> More info on the "New in JavaScript 1.7" article on MDC.
>
>
> Lars Gunther
>
>
>
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Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please - versions

[Brett Patterson]

I like that explanation. I get it now. Thanks. One more quick question
though, what is a let-block, in general? Thanks. That really does make it a
lot easier to understand.

Brett

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 6:04 AM, Keryx Web <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Brett Patterson skrev:
>
>> I am sorry, but I must ask. Are you saying that the term JavaScript is
>> owned by Sun? Or just the Java part? And, yes, JavaScript is implemented in
>> Internet Explorer.
>>
>>
> I see that your question has already been answered. I will give some
> additional points.
>
> Mocha was Brendan Eich's internal name during initial development at
> Netscape. It was renamed LiveScript by him and his fellow enginers, but
> changed to JavaScript by the *marketing* department.
>
> JScript in MSIE 6 and 7 is *roughly* comparable to JavaScript 1.2 and to
> ECMAScript 3.0.
>
> There is a document, produced by MS, that in very high detail outlines how
> JScript, and other browsers JS engines, differs from the spec. It is
> available at https://developer.mozilla.org/en/JavaScript
>
> The JavaScript support in Safari, Google Chrome and Opera is *roughly*
> comparable to JavaScript 1.5, and some parts of JavaScript 1.6.
>
> (Note: 99 % of the time when one curses the differences between browsers,
> it is not because of their deviations from each other in Java/J/EcmaScript,
> but how they differ from each other on the DOM.)
>
> Mozilla is allowed by the ECMAScript spec to develop JavaScript as a
> superset to ECMAScript, and indeed they have. JavaScript 1.8 contains quite
> a few features that (probably) will not even make it into ECMAScript 3.1
> (generators, iterators, let-blocks - personally I really like let blocks!).
>
> A few years ago Netscape proposed a JavaScript 2.0 version. Many features
> from that proposal has made it into ActionScript and into JScript.NET (used
> on the server). ECMAScript 4.0 that was being worked upon altered from the
> original JS 2.0 proposal in some ways. That work has however been halted.
> One group, led by Mozilla and Adobe, wanted to *add* to ECMAScript in
> radical ways. One group, led by MS and Yahoo (Doug Crockford), wanted
> primarily a *subset*, getting rid of "the bad parts". They soon added
> features, though, and the language was in essence forked.
>
> A compromise has been reached. "ECMAScript Harmony" will most probably be
> released as version 4, but not for a couple of years. And it will differ
> from the ES 4 proposal as stood in June.
>
> It is the intention of the EcmaScript working group to release ES 3.1 next
> year, at which time they hope to have two interoperable and complete
> implementations. One will most probably be SpiderMonkey (Mozilla) and the
> other might be V8.
>
> The new ES 4, i.e. "Harmony", will probably not see the light of day until
> 2010 or 2011.
>
>
> Lars Gunther
>
>
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Re: [WSG] CSS invisible to IE

[Brett Patterson]

There are conditional CSS HTML codes that can apply to FF. If you want to
use them, you can try:



If the above does not work, try adding an additional N in ,
as in .

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 12:29 AM, Luke Hoggett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

>  Hi,
>
> This list isn't really a help desk. For such things Google is your friend.
>
> Anyway, there are various methods/hacks available.  My preference is to use
> child selectors
>
> eg
> #container  .something {
> /* this will be used in ie6 */
> }
> #container > .something {
> /* this will be used in firefox and ie7 and safari etc*/
> }
>
> the order is important
>
> if you want ONLY FF to have the rule applied (I cannot imagine why) try
> using some of the -moz attributes that may be applicable
>
> Regards
> L
>
> Fuji kusaka wrote:
>
> Is there any way to code css (not conditional inline css), so that the CSS
> apply online to FF?
>
> --
> Fuji kusaka
>
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Re: [WSG] Accessible JS/Mootools

[Brett Patterson]

It says the page validates. And I visited it, but don't see no problems with
it.

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  can anyone help me with this?
>
>
> Many Thanks
>
> Mathew O'Connor
>
> 
>
> 0800 3277935
>
>
>--
>
>
>
> *Disclaimer*: This email and its attachments may be confidential and are
> intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any
> views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not
> necessarily represent those of Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd. If you are not
> the intended recipient of this email and its attachments then please contact
> the sender and do not use or forward this e-mail to anyone.
>
> Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd, Registered in England and Wales Company
> Registration No: 57200784. Registered Office: 92 Stanton Road, Meir,
> Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire, ST3 6DF.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  --
> *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On
> Behalf Of *Essential eBiz Solutions Ltd
> *Sent:* 28 October 2008 15:32
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* [WSG] Accessible JS/Mootools
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> I'm trying to implement a few features from the mootools library on a
> clients web site.
>
>
>
> Basically I'm trying to get 3 element to load differently on the page load.
>
>
>
> the 1st one is the navigation bar which I think is completed
>
>
>
> the second is a div that has a .png image for transparency that I want to
> slide into place so basically have it's width go from 0px - 300px
>
>
>
> then when that has finished it animation for the text inside it which has
> another div container to fade in.
>
>
>
> can anyone help? I've searched the web and the only things I can find
> either don't work or they aren't accessible.
>
>
>
> 
>
>  (needs to have the slide from 0px to 310px on
> page load)
> (needs to have any text/images contained to fade in on
> page load)
> Welcome to ACB
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Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please

[Brett Patterson]

There is only one JavaScript, as created by Netscape. Though it can be used
for other things, such as programming an application, I think that is worded
right.

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Hassan Schroeder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> liorean wrote:
>
>   Anyway, by the time the first full
>> version of Navigator that had it was released (2.0) it had already
>> been renamed to JavaScript, so I'd hardly say it was released under
>> the LiveScript name.
>>
>
> Well, at this point I don't know exactly when a version of Navigator
> was released with it under either name but certainly remember reading
> plenty about "LiveScript" before the name change.
>
> And there were certainly some interesting internal discussions at
> JavaSoft about the whole issue. :-)
>
> --
> Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Webtuitive Design ===  (+1) 408-621-3445   === http://webtuitive.com
>
>  dream.  code.
>
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Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please

[Brett Patterson]

Actually it did say it is heavily object-based. But now, under Dynamic
Programming --> Objects as associated arrays, it says it is almost entirely
object-based. Looks like it just got updated. Internet Explorer does read
JavaScript, but does it support JavaScript as a whole, or does it read
JavaScript as JScript?

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 10:43 AM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Brett Patterson
> > Sent: 28 October 2008 12:35
> > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> > Subject: Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please
> >
> >
> > When you say support, are you saying that Internet Explorer will not
> execute
> > JavaScript, or it will execute JavaScript as JScript? And in the
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript link you provided it states
> that
> > JavaScript is heavily object-based, so should I assume this as well to
> be correct?
>
> As far as I can see, it does not say that.
>
> The facts are that the JScript run-time engine will attempt to execute
> whatever is thrown at it. In most cases something that looks like valid
> Javascript will produce something like what was intended.  Think of it
> like support for CSS: IE is always a little bit different, but it is
> still CSS. And at the end of the day, JScript, ECMAscript, ActionScript
> and JavaScript are more or less the same beast as far as this discussion
> is concerned. They are all based on objects, they all implement
> inheritance, and all of them can be used to write linear, procedural
> code if required.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
>
> Mike Brockington
> Web Development Specialist
>
> www.calcResult.com
> www.stephanieBlakey.me.uk
> www.edinburgh.gov.uk
>
> This message does not reflect the opinions of any entity other than the
> author alone.
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Re: [WSG] JavaScript clarification please

[Brett Patterson]

When you say support, are you saying that Internet Explorer will not execute
JavaScript, or it will execute JavaScript as JScript? And in the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript link you provided it states that
JavaScript is heavily object-based, so should I assume this as well to be
correct?

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 3:55 AM, liorean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> > liorean wrote:
> >> (Netscape had originally intended to use the name LiveScript.)
>
> 2008/10/28 Hassan Schroeder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Actually, it was initially released as LiveScript and renamed later.
>
> IIRC Navigator 2.0 also supported a mocha: pseudo-protocol like the
> javascript: pseudo-protocol we have today, from the name it was given
> before it became LiveScript. Anyway, by the time the first full
> version of Navigator that had it was released (2.0) it had already
> been renamed to JavaScript, so I'd hardly say it was released under
> the LiveScript name.
> --
> David "liorean" Andersson
>
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