Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
meaning what mike?... i know what you mean by the mushrooms..but do you? are we on the same mushroom page? something akin to alice in wonderland? hey folk..i just sold one of my drawings: autumn fungi ... i do believe i sent you a pix joe..remember ?... i feel over the moon. as a mother bought it for her daughter for her 30th birthday... it is wonderful to share the visions...and communicate through the universal language of art merle.. NOO!! Merle, I think we have different kinds of mushrooms in mind! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:43:48 AM mike...postal address please i'll send you some...merle Merle, I'm sure you did! I was just giving you the Zen view about 'adding nothing'. Btw, if you're seeing snakes with legs then I want some of those wild mountain mushrooms you must be cooking.. ; ) Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:55:42 AM as if i did not know this mike.. thanks for sharing ... so a sunset just is however... what sort of a world is it if we cannot understand the concept of beauty... ? merle..a snake with legs is a lizard... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Merle, A sunset just is. In Zen terms, adding adjectives to it is like painting legs on a snake. Beauty is not intrinsic to a sunset. In fact, it doesn't even exist *in itself* when you consider it only appears from the perspective of where you stand to view it. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle Merle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical  logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle  Edgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic of reality. Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle,br/br/If we're talking about the same 'shrooms, then do you know you by posting them you could face a 2 to 25 year sentence and possible forfeiture of your house? Best hang onto them until I make it over to NSW sometime!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle,br/br/Congrats on your sale - it must be satisfying to have someone appreciate what you do to the point of paying money for it.br/br/I agree with Bill! that art, maths are only universal in that they apply to humans. The only things that are truly universal are the factors Buddha found: impermanence, non-self, emptiness, cause and effect and that everything depends on prior conditions for its existence (Dependent Origination). br/br/Mike br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
mike.. milky saffrons are top tucker in the very best restaurants and much sort after .. what do you take me for? a person who has not reached realisation? merle Merle, If we're talking about the same 'shrooms, then do you know you by posting them you could face a 2 to 25 year sentence and possible forfeiture of your house? Best hang onto them until I make it over to NSW sometime! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 6:41:11 AM meaning what mike?... i know what you mean by the mushrooms..but do you? are we on the same mushroom page? something akin to alice in wonderland? hey folk..i just sold one of my drawings: autumn fungi ... i do believe i sent you a pix joe..remember ?... i feel over the moon. as a mother bought it for her daughter for her 30th birthday... it is wonderful to share the visions...and communicate through the universal language of art merle.. NOO!! Merle, I think we have different kinds of mushrooms in mind! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:43:48 AM mike...postal address please i'll send you some...merle Merle, I'm sure you did! I was just giving you the Zen view about 'adding nothing'. Btw, if you're seeing snakes with legs then I want some of those wild mountain mushrooms you must be cooking.. ; ) Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:55:42 AM as if i did not know this mike.. thanks for sharing ... so a sunset just is however... what sort of a world is it if we cannot understand the concept of beauty... ? merle..a snake with legs is a lizard... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Merle, A sunset just is. In Zen terms, adding adjectives to it is like painting legs on a snake. Beauty is not intrinsic to a sunset. In fact, it doesn't even exist *in itself* when you consider it only appears from the perspective of where you stand to view it. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle Merle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical  logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle  Edgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic of reality. Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle,br/br/Yeh, but I was originally talking about the shrooms they traditionally don't serve in your local restaurant.. ; )br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
thank you for the congrats mike the lass is over the moon with my art..says she'll be back for more... her mother said why have you all that beautiful work hidden away it needs to be out there... i prefer to just do art... selling is not in my nature on-line art buying is a great way to get it out there into the market place i cannot agree with you mike..art..look at the bower bird ... maths look at a spider's web... must i go on? merle Merle, Congrats on your sale - it must be satisfying to have someone appreciate what you do to the point of paying money for it. I agree with Bill! that art, maths are only universal in that they apply to humans. The only things that are truly universal are the factors Buddha found: impermanence, non-self, emptiness, cause and effect and that everything depends on prior conditions for its existence (Dependent Origination). Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 6:41:11 AM meaning what mike?... i know what you mean by the mushrooms..but do you? are we on the same mushroom page? something akin to alice in wonderland? hey folk..i just sold one of my drawings: autumn fungi ... i do believe i sent you a pix joe..remember ?... i feel over the moon. as a mother bought it for her daughter for her 30th birthday... it is wonderful to share the visions...and communicate through the universal language of art merle.. NOO!! Merle, I think we have different kinds of mushrooms in mind! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:43:48 AM mike...postal address please i'll send you some...merle Merle, I'm sure you did! I was just giving you the Zen view about 'adding nothing'. Btw, if you're seeing snakes with legs then I want some of those wild mountain mushrooms you must be cooking.. ; ) Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:55:42 AM as if i did not know this mike.. thanks for sharing ... so a sunset just is however... what sort of a world is it if we cannot understand the concept of beauty... ? merle..a snake with legs is a lizard... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Merle, A sunset just is. In Zen terms, adding adjectives to it is like painting legs on a snake. Beauty is not intrinsic to a sunset. In fact, it doesn't even exist *in itself* when you consider it only appears from the perspective of where you stand to view it. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle Merle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical  logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle  Edgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic of reality. Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
mike..i see..gold tops and blue meenies?...is that the shroom page we are on? how things change in late 60's they were top tucker in many circles.. merle Merle, Yeh, but I was originally talking about the shrooms they traditionally don't serve in your local restaurant.. ; ) Mike mike.. milky saffrons are top tucker in the very best restaurants and much sort after .. what do you take me for? a person who has not reached realisation? merle Merle, If we're talking about the same 'shrooms, then do you know you by posting them you could face a 2 to 25 year sentence and possible forfeiture of your house? Best hang onto them until I make it over to NSW sometime! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 6:41:11 AM meaning what mike?... i know what you mean by the mushrooms..but do you? are we on the same mushroom page? something akin to alice in wonderland? hey folk..i just sold one of my drawings: autumn fungi ... i do believe i sent you a pix joe..remember ?... i feel over the moon. as a mother bought it for her daughter for her 30th birthday... it is wonderful to share the visions...and communicate through the universal language of art merle.. NOO!! Merle, I think we have different kinds of mushrooms in mind! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:43:48 AM mike...postal address please i'll send you some...merle Merle, I'm sure you did! I was just giving you the Zen view about 'adding nothing'. Btw, if you're seeing snakes with legs then I want some of those wild mountain mushrooms you must be cooking.. ; ) Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:55:42 AM as if i did not know this mike.. thanks for sharing ... so a sunset just is however... what sort of a world is it if we cannot understand the concept of beauty... ? merle..a snake with legs is a lizard... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Merle, A sunset just is. In Zen terms, adding adjectives to it is like painting legs on a snake. Beauty is not intrinsic to a sunset. In fact, it doesn't even exist *in itself* when you consider it only appears from the perspective of where you stand to view it. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle Merle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical  logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle  Edgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic of reality. Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote:
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
br/Merle,br/br/If you go to Mars or the furthest galaxy away from us you will find impermanence, cause and effect, dependent origination, but you won't find art. In relative terms, your 2 hands exist and can be seen, touched etc., but the number '2' exists only in logic and the minds of men.br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Chris, Are you saying you don't know HOW I draw such a bright line between experience and perceptions? Or are you saying you don't know WHY I draw the line? 'How' is easy. Experience is sensual and monistic (Buddha Nature). Perceptions are intellectualizations and pluralistic (Human Nature). 'Why' is not as easy to explain, but I'll go through the steps below: - The vast majority of humans experience suffering. - In order to alleviate suffering you must drop attachments. - In order to drop attachments you must awaken to the realization that your identification with a separate and unique 'self' is a delusion. - In order to do that you have to experience monism (Buddha Nature) where all is one and there is no separate self - or anything else for that matter. - In order to do that you must suspend the creation of pluralism and delusions which are products of your intellect (Human Nature). - In order to do that you could employ any number of zen teaching methods including zazen, chanting, bowing and koans. There are probably many other non-zen ways also. - After you do that you can resume your intellect and the creation of pluralism and delusion, but now with the realization that these are delusions. You are melding together Buddha Nature and Human Nature so that Human Nature no longer obscures Buddha Nature. The result of that is Buddha, the Awakened One, 'Tathagata' as it is called in the sutras. ...and speaking of sutras... SUTRA STUFF As you know I don't usually quote things from sutras because I try as much as possible to separate zen and zen practice from the religious doctrines of Buddhism. But just for you here are some labels used in the sutras for concepts I regularly talk about: - Buddha Nature is called 'Tath#257;gatagarbha'. - The experience of Buddha Nature is called 'samadhi' and 'tathata'. - Delusions are called 'maya', although it is also often referred to as 'illusion'. When you are experiencing samadhi/tathata there is no 'red'. There is just the awareness of experience. It's only later when you start intellectualizing that you name your experience 'sight' and then more specifically 'red' and maybe 'pretty', etc... 'Seeing', 'red', 'pretty' do not exist during samadhi/tathata. I often refer to that experience as 'Just THIS!' which is the best I have come up with to describe that experience using English words. Everything you described in the last part of your post starting with Seeing includes whatever mental state... and ending with And when I have not sat, my mind is crinkled, the world grey, and the blue is pale are intellectualizations, poetic though they may be. In fact when you say 'when you sit the world seems brighter and more pleasing than when you don't sit' should in itself be a big, flashing warning light for you that all this is a delusion. Everything I wrote above is of course only IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I still don't know how you draw such a bright line between these experiences are experience and those experiences over there are delusion. There's no sharp dividing lines anywhere that I can find, much less between the natural unlabeled living in sensory experience with red known as red being salient and with thoughts known as thoughts being salient. Either way there is no domain of red and no domain of thoughts. To me the inclusion of awareness of the state of thinking as a sense along with awareness of the state of vision is a very subtle and profound insight I first heard in the Heart Sutra. Out There is In Here, there's no line. Seeing includes whatever mental state (relaxed and on holiday, but bringing up a point with a valued debate friend) we are in, as much as whatever sensory experiences (blue tiles, warm water or noises from children) that consist of living right now. How could this supposed part be excluded? When I have sat, the trees' green is greener, the sky is close and intimate with my thoughts arising and falling, now stopping now starting, and you will ask me to put space between these that you are not one but two? And when I have not sat, my mind is crinkled, the world grey, and the blue is pale. I find no lines or boundaries. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 4, 2013 6:09 AM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Merle, Yes. Experience is not a delusion. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: à à anything that is not a delusion for you bill?..merle à I didn't really finish my thought below. It should read: 'I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know that it is delusional.' ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Edgar, I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Now we're on the same page!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
RE: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Bill!br/br/You're becoming quite the 'Buddhist'! Glad you can see that just saying, Just THIS! doesn't suit all occasions.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Re: Experience
Pudgala, I do partially agree with you definition of 'perception' below when you describe it as mental pictures formed in the brain I usually just call these 'concepts' or 'intellectualizations', or even just 'thoughts'. The problem we are having communicating is that you are using the word 'experience' differently than I. You are using it for both sensual experience and for a combined experience + perception. I use the word 'experience' to describe ONLY sensual experience. Everything else I refer to as 'perceptions'. Perceptions are indeed as you say below mental pictures formed in the brain Some perceptions as you go on to say are from sensory organ input (although those are your words, not mine; so don't hurl them back at me later on). All the rest of that sentence,(...or imagined) and sincere words (words whose meanings are believed to be valid to the perceiver) are just intellectualizations (thoughts/delusions) which all come together to form perceptions and not what I consider 'experience'. Experience (as I define it) does not follow perceptions. Perceptions follow experience, and sometimes perceptions are created independently of any experience - like fantasies. I will attempt to answer the one question you asked below: You're walking down the street with another guy and you both perceive an attractive couple walking towards you and you sincerely say She is really attractive. The other guy says, He certainly is! Now what was your experience? My intellectualizations (delusions) were: - there is a street separate and distinct from me - 'I' am moving down the street - there is another person separate and distinct from me - there are two other people (a couple)separate and distinct from me - one (or both)of them has the quality of being 'attractive' - 'I' find one attractive - my 'friend' finds the other attractive - etc... My experience, however, was Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pudgala2 pudgala2@... wrote: Bill! Perceptions are mental pictures formed in the brain from both sensory organ input (real or imagined) and sincere words (words whose meanings are believed to be valid to the perceiver). Experience always follows perception which always follows prior experience. Experience is dependent upon perceptions which are dependent upon prior experience which in turn lead to perceptual expectations which are always dependent on past experience which formed the perceptionsSamsara! Once this interdependent origination is realized the cycle can be brken and nvelty introduced and the perceptual world pens wider. You're walking down the street with another guy and you both perceive an attractive couple walking towards you and you sincerely say She is really attractive. The other guy says, He certainly is! Now what was your experience? A mind that is stretched by a new experience can never go back to its old dimensions. ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes. The ingredients in my potluck postings work for me. I just cook them up in zazen and set them on the table for others to see without any expectations. pudgala2 --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! wrote: Pudgala2, With the utmost respect for the learned men you've quoted below I must point out what they mean by 'experience' is what I call 'perception' - the intellectualization of experience by the intellect. If you substitute 'perception' for 'experience' in all the quotes I would agree. When I use the word 'experience' it refers solely to immediate, raw, sensory experience - what we call touch, sight, sound, smell and taste. Experience is actually just one thing, not five, and that one thing is also called Buddha Nature. This is the way I use those terms. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pudgala2 pudgala2@ wrote: We learn from experience that men never learn anything from experience. ~ G. B. Shaw Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with [how you process] what happens to you. ~ Aldous Huxley Ideology is the unspoken assumptions [sentient beings] that organize your experience of something. ~ Michael Pollan Remember, your brain doesn't care what idea you believe and then perceive. Your healthy brain will instantly convert into your subjective life experience of the moment any idea that you believe. ~ Maxie C. Maultsby, Jr., M.D. Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes. ~ Oscar Wilde The Royal Society of London took as its motto Nullius in Verba [Nothing in Words], best translated as Take nobody's word for it, see for yourself. Granted its charter in 1662 by Charles II, the Royal Society is the oldest and most venerated of English scientific societies. By insisting on exactness, it changed the dominant mode of scientific inquiry from experience to experiment. The Society judged that anecdotes of
[Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, Experience (as I define it - sensual) is always real as real as real can be. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  so bill...experience is always real as real as real can be? merle  Merle, Yes. Experience is not a delusion. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ààanything that is not a delusion for you bill?..merle àI didn't really finish my thought below. It should read: 'I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know that it is delusional.' ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Edgar, I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, This appears to be part of your problem in understanding the nature of the world of forms. The math out there doesn't consist of ideal circles, squares, and lines as some of the ancient Greeks thought. The math our there is like software that continually computes the current state of reality in the present moment. It has nothing to do with idealized geometry... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 11:35 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, I fundamentally disagree with you. Math is no difference than logic or reason. I know many think that math represents reality, exists 'out there' and we 'discover it'. IMO math is just a projection of human intellect. We project it on reality the very same way we project all delusions. In reality there are no integers, no straight line, no circles, etc... That's the way I see it anyway... --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The math's an analogy. But I will speak up for math by stating math does something different than mirror the small individual's intellect. Perhaps it mirrors the essential uncreated mind :) Like reality it has a certain independence from thoughts and selves. Unlike reality, it's not reality. --Chris Thanks, --Chris chris@ +1-301-270-6524 On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit
[Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, The 'bamboozling' is done by your intellect. What you're describing is not pure experience, it's a perception - perhaps what you'd call a false perception. Like thinking you see something but when you go check there's nothing there. That's a fault of your perception, not your experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill..i disagree.. sometimes you can hear something, feel something ,taste something, smell something, and it is not always as it appears... one can be bamboozled here as well as in the intellectualisations... at the end of the day.. nothing is what it appears to be..  all can appear as a distortion from reality merle  Merle, I don't know how much clearer or more logical I can be. I'll try again: All intellectualizations (thoughts, judgments, classifications, associations, etc...) are delusions. Only experience (sensual: hearing, seeing, feeling, tasting, smelling) are not delusions. Okay? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill you need to state these delusions clearly and logically so all of us on this forum know precisely what you mean... merle àEdgar, I'll return the compliment by acknowledging that you have some of the most complex and persistent delusions I have ever come across. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Actually you need to know much much more to function well in reality of the world of forms which you seem to do quite well. By denying that is reality you deny the reality of most of your existence - all of it other than the 3 hours a week you spend sitting... Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 7:08 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, This appears to be part of your problem in understanding the nature of the world of forms. The math out there doesn't consist of ideal circles, squares, and lines as some of the ancient Greeks thought. The math our there is like software that continually computes the current state of reality in the present moment. It has nothing to do with idealized geometry... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 11:35 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, I fundamentally disagree with you. Math is no difference than logic or reason. I know many think that math represents reality, exists 'out there' and we 'discover it'. IMO math is just a projection of human intellect. We project it on reality the very same way we project all delusions. In reality there are no integers, no straight line, no circles, etc... That's the way I see it anyway... --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The math's an analogy. But I will speak up for math by stating math does something different than mirror the small individual's intellect. Perhaps it mirrors the essential uncreated mind :) Like reality it has a certain independence from thoughts and selves. Unlike reality, it's not reality. --Chris Thanks, --Chris chris@ +1-301-270-6524 On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
no no no mike..life is art and art is life..merle Merle, If you go to Mars or the furthest galaxy away from us you will find impermanence, cause and effect, dependent origination, but you won't find art. In relative terms, your 2 hands exist and can be seen, touched etc., but the number '2' exists only in logic and the minds of men. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 8:18:47 AM thank you for the congrats mike the lass is over the moon with my art..says she'll be back for more... her mother said why have you all that beautiful work hidden away it needs to be out there... i prefer to just do art... selling is not in my nature on-line art buying is a great way to get it out there into the market place i cannot agree with you mike..art..look at the bower bird ... maths look at a spider's web... must i go on? merle Merle, Congrats on your sale - it must be satisfying to have someone appreciate what you do to the point of paying money for it. I agree with Bill! that art, maths are only universal in that they apply to humans. The only things that are truly universal are the factors Buddha found: impermanence, non-self, emptiness, cause and effect and that everything depends on prior conditions for its existence (Dependent Origination). Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 6:41:11 AM meaning what mike?... i know what you mean by the mushrooms..but do you? are we on the same mushroom page? something akin to alice in wonderland? hey folk..i just sold one of my drawings: autumn fungi ... i do believe i sent you a pix joe..remember ?... i feel over the moon. as a mother bought it for her daughter for her 30th birthday... it is wonderful to share the visions...and communicate through the universal language of art merle.. NOO!! Merle, I think we have different kinds of mushrooms in mind! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:43:48 AM mike...postal address please i'll send you some...merle Merle, I'm sure you did! I was just giving you the Zen view about 'adding nothing'. Btw, if you're seeing snakes with legs then I want some of those wild mountain mushrooms you must be cooking.. ; ) Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:55:42 AM as if i did not know this mike.. thanks for sharing ... so a sunset just is however... what sort of a world is it if we cannot understand the concept of beauty... ? merle..a snake with legs is a lizard... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Merle, A sunset just is. In Zen terms, adding adjectives to it is like painting legs on a snake. Beauty is not intrinsic to a sunset. In fact, it doesn't even exist *in itself* when you consider it only appears from the perspective of where you stand to view it. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle Merle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical  logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle  Edgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you.
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
ah i see..as if i did not before merle Now we're on the same page! Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 8:21:28 AM mike..i see..gold tops and blue meenies?...is that the shroom page we are on? how things change in late 60's they were top tucker in many circles.. merle Merle, Yeh, but I was originally talking about the shrooms they traditionally don't serve in your local restaurant.. ; ) Mike mike.. milky saffrons are top tucker in the very best restaurants and much sort after .. what do you take me for? a person who has not reached realisation? merle Merle, If we're talking about the same 'shrooms, then do you know you by posting them you could face a 2 to 25 year sentence and possible forfeiture of your house? Best hang onto them until I make it over to NSW sometime! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 6:41:11 AM meaning what mike?... i know what you mean by the mushrooms..but do you? are we on the same mushroom page? something akin to alice in wonderland? hey folk..i just sold one of my drawings: autumn fungi ... i do believe i sent you a pix joe..remember ?... i feel over the moon. as a mother bought it for her daughter for her 30th birthday... it is wonderful to share the visions...and communicate through the universal language of art merle.. NOO!! Merle, I think we have different kinds of mushrooms in mind! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:43:48 AM mike...postal address please i'll send you some...merle Merle, I'm sure you did! I was just giving you the Zen view about 'adding nothing'. Btw, if you're seeing snakes with legs then I want some of those wild mountain mushrooms you must be cooking.. ; ) Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:55:42 AM as if i did not know this mike.. thanks for sharing ... so a sunset just is however... what sort of a world is it if we cannot understand the concept of beauty... ? merle..a snake with legs is a lizard... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Merle, A sunset just is. In Zen terms, adding adjectives to it is like painting legs on a snake. Beauty is not intrinsic to a sunset. In fact, it doesn't even exist *in itself* when you consider it only appears from the perspective of where you stand to view it. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle Merle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical  logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle  Edgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic of reality. Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
sensual...what about non sensual?..merle Merle, Experience (as I define it - sensual) is always real as real as real can be. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  so bill...experience is always real as real as real can be? merle  Merle, Yes. Experience is not a delusion. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:   anything that is not a delusion for you bill?..merle  I didn't really finish my thought below. It should read: 'I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know that it is delusional.' ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Edgar, I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, This appears to be part of your problem in understanding the nature of the world of forms. The math out there doesn't consist of ideal circles, squares, and lines as some of the ancient Greeks thought. The math our there is like software that continually computes the current state of reality in the present moment. It has nothing to do with idealized geometry... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 11:35 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, I fundamentally disagree with you. Math is no difference than logic or reason. I know many think that math represents reality, exists 'out there' and we 'discover it'. IMO math is just a projection of human intellect. We project it on reality the very same way we project all delusions. In reality there are no integers, no straight line, no circles, etc... That's the way I see it anyway... --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The math's an analogy. But I will speak up for math by stating math does something different than mirror the small individual's intellect. Perhaps it mirrors the essential uncreated mind :) Like reality it has a certain independence from thoughts and selves. Unlike reality, it's not reality. --Chris Thanks, --Chris chris@ +1-301-270-6524 On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations,
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
goodness me i had better hang up my hat with my art...it's all based on perception... and now your saying it's all false!.. how come i can communicate with folk in that fashion then?... is their understanding false...and without a word being said they and me are on the same page?..merle Merle, The 'bamboozling' is done by your intellect. What you're describing is not pure experience, it's a perception - perhaps what you'd call a false perception. Like thinking you see something but when you go check there's nothing there. That's a fault of your perception, not your experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill..i disagree.. sometimes you can hear something, feel something ,taste something, smell something, and it is not always as it appears... one can be bamboozled here as well as in the intellectualisations... at the end of the day.. nothing is what it appears to be..  all can appear as a distortion from reality merle  Merle, I don't know how much clearer or more logical I can be. I'll try again: All intellectualizations (thoughts, judgments, classifications, associations, etc...) are delusions. Only experience (sensual: hearing, seeing, feeling, tasting, smelling) are not delusions. Okay? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill you need to state these delusions clearly and logically so all of us on this forum know precisely what you mean... merle  Edgar, I'll return the compliment by acknowledging that you have some of the most complex and persistent delusions I have ever come across. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Actually you need to know much much more to function well in reality of the world of forms which you seem to do quite well. By denying that is reality you deny the reality of most of your existence - all of it other than the 3 hours a week you spend sitting... Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 7:08 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, This appears to be part of your problem in understanding the nature of the world of forms. The math out there doesn't consist of ideal circles, squares, and lines as some of the ancient Greeks thought. The math our there is like software that continually computes the current state of reality in the present moment. It has nothing to do with idealized geometry... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 11:35 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, I fundamentally disagree with you. Math is no difference than logic or reason. I know many think that math represents reality, exists 'out there' and we 'discover it'. IMO math is just a projection of human intellect. We project it on reality the very same way we project all delusions. In reality there are no integers, no straight line, no circles, etc... That's the way I see it anyway... --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The math's an analogy. But I will speak up for math by stating math does something different than mirror the small individual's intellect. Perhaps it mirrors the essential uncreated mind :) Like reality it has a certain independence from thoughts and selves. Unlike reality, it's not reality. --Chris Thanks, --Chris chris@ +1-301-270-6524 On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, Humans do sometimes use math to make bridges, but ants make bridges all the time and I don't think they ever use math to do so. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   it is mathematics and it certainly does communicate..without mathematics we would not have any bridges to cross rivers for example...merle  The experience of unity that is what I am trying to convey, not that effectively, is no more sharable than the experience of unity one may notice while taking a bath or washing the coffee mugs. Communicators may try to use math, but these uses are always matters of stories. Any ways, surely you don't mean math itself communicates?  What ever would that mean? Remember, math properly is called maths. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 4, 2013 12:16 PM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Chris, It's really dumb to say math doesn't communicate! Of course it does... Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 3:09 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:  I have to share Bill's disagreement of math being a language or even being communicative. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 10:48 PM, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle  PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! --  On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote:    ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links   zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
it's innate...they just know... we do too.. except us folks deny our origins... born knowing in the razzlemattazle of life we forget our origins ..merle Merle, Humans do sometimes use math to make bridges, but ants make bridges all the time and I don't think they ever use math to do so. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   it is mathematics and it certainly does communicate..without mathematics we would not have any bridges to cross rivers for example...merle  The experience of unity that is what I am trying to convey, not that effectively, is no more sharable than the experience of unity one may notice while taking a bath or washing the coffee mugs. Communicators may try to use math, but these uses are always matters of stories. Any ways, surely you don't mean math itself communicates?  What ever would that mean? Remember, math properly is called maths. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 4, 2013 12:16 PM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Chris, It's really dumb to say math doesn't communicate! Of course it does... Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 3:09 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote:  I have to share Bill's disagreement of math being a language or even being communicative. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 10:48 PM, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle  PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! --  On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote:    ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links   zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
[Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as beautiful. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   bill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification please..merle I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. But have also experienced Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ààbill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle àMerle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical Ãâàlogic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle ÃâàEdgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic of reality. Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, Are you seriously implying that a spider uses math to build his web? It is your human intellect that judges the spider's web to be a work of mathematically-based architecture. You are anthropomorphizing and projecting your human delusions onto a the spider and the web. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  this is your opinion bill.. a delusional mind at work... let's try a spider's web's.. tell me they are not architectural mathematical wonders... merle   Merle, Maybe..but they're horrible at math and can't sing for shit...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àdisagree... caterpillars create an architectural wonder and emerge as butterflies... merle àMerle, Math, music and architecture are not universal because these are all singularly human activities. There are other beings in the universe that are not human - like caterpillars. Like I said before, unless by 'universal' you mean 'common to all humans' these activities are not universal. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâàbill. please clarify...i am suggesting universal and if one Ãâàlooks hard and long and realises maths art music and now architecture are universal ..point to me where it is not?..merle ÃâàMerle, Math, art, music and architecture are not universal because they are products the human intellect, and the human intellect is not universal. If you fail to see my logic in this that's because logic also is not universal but is a product of the human intellect. If by realization and awakening you mean experiencing Buddha Nature then I would agree this is universally available to all sentient beings. It does come from deep inside the very core of one's (all sentient beings) being, and that core is called 'Buddha Nature'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbill..i disagree..mathematics, art and music... no i will not include esperanto..you have to learn that and an australian aboriginal would not have this opportunity...that's one example... ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàexplain to me why maths ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàart and music are not universal languages..i might just include architecture as well... i fail to see your logic in this ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàand realisation and awakening also is universal ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàas it comes from deep inside the very core of one's being ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàmerle ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàMerle, In your list of universal languages you forgot to mention Esperanto. ;) Seriously though, all the languages (modes of communication) you mentioned (math, art and music) are not 'universal'. You might be able to stretch them to 'human-wide', but I think it would stop there. You might be able to mount an argument for music having some communicative qualities to other species, less so for art but none at all for math. Once again, and as usual...IMO! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàmathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàPBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is
[Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, I believe someone is attached to their intellect when they believe their intellectualizations are real. I am using my intellect right now to write this sentence. You can use your intellect (or anything else, like your car) and not be attached to it. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill...what makes you believe that others on this forum are attached to their intellect?.. to construct this sentence you had to use your intellect surely?..merle  Merle, I don't have any fear of my intellect. I use it much of the time. I am not attached to my intellect. I know it produces delusions. These delusions come and go like clouds in the sky. The clouds may partially cover the sun sometimes, but I always no the sun is there and the clouds will pass. I do not fear clouds. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill...what fear do you have of the intellect?.. without the human brain and intellect yes based on logic àyou would not be typing this message to edgar ..àmerle àEdgar, I'd agree with every word you say below if you would just erase the three-word phrase the external reality in the last sentence. Or if you want to keep the word count constant you could substitute the phrase the intellectual delusion... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Math is a subset of logic. Think of software which incorporates both. Would it work for you if I said that the world of forms is a logico-mathematical computational system? Human math and logic are approximations of that in human mental models of reality. They work because they do, in the large part, accurately model the external reality of the world of forms Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 7:01 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic of reality. Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
bill..are you saying you are happy to accept second hand experiences?...merle Merle, My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as beautiful. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   bill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification please..merle I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. But have also experienced Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:   bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle  Merle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical  logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle  Edgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic of reality. Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be different equations, but they are not in the least bit different. The equal-sign is the present. 1+1 is already 2! And the effect IS the cause. Your karmic punishment for doing something bad is you doing that bad thing. Your karmic reward for doing something good is you doing that good thing. Forget the come-back-to-bite-you BS! -- On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 4:58 AM EDT Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book
[Zen] Original art by Merle Wiitpom | bluethumb.com.au - Online Art Gallery
feel free to experience..merle http://www.bluethumb.com.au/merlewiitpom
Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
sorry i am not.. that is how us humans learn. how do you think the idea of a aeroplane came into being...? i think leonardo da vinci would have your argument as wanting.. we learn from nature.. not the other way around merle Merle, Are you seriously implying that a spider uses math to build his web? It is your human intellect that judges the spider's web to be a work of mathematically-based architecture. You are anthropomorphizing and projecting your human delusions onto a the spider and the web. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  this is your opinion bill.. a delusional mind at work... let's try a spider's web's.. tell me they are not architectural mathematical wonders... merle   Merle, Maybe..but they're horrible at math and can't sing for shit...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  disagree... caterpillars create an architectural wonder and emerge as butterflies... merle  Merle, Math, music and architecture are not universal because these are all singularly human activities. There are other beings in the universe that are not human - like caterpillars. Like I said before, unless by 'universal' you mean 'common to all humans' these activities are not universal. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill. please clarify...i am suggesting universal and if one  looks hard and long and realises maths art music and now architecture are universal ..point to me where it is not?..merle  Merle, Math, art, music and architecture are not universal because they are products the human intellect, and the human intellect is not universal. If you fail to see my logic in this that's because logic also is not universal but is a product of the human intellect. If by realization and awakening you mean experiencing Buddha Nature then I would agree this is universally available to all sentient beings. It does come from deep inside the very core of one's (all sentient beings) being, and that core is called 'Buddha Nature'. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ bill..i disagree..mathematics, art and music... no i will not include esperanto..you have to learn that and an australian aboriginal would not have this opportunity...that's one example... ÃÆ'‚ explain to me why maths ÃÆ'‚ art and music are not universal languages..i might just include architecture as well... i fail to see your logic in this ÃÆ'‚ and realisation and awakening also is universal ÃÆ'‚ as it comes from deep inside the very core of one's being ÃÆ'‚ merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, In your list of universal languages you forgot to mention Esperanto. ;) Seriously though, all the languages (modes of communication) you mentioned (math, art and music) are not 'universal'. You might be able to stretch them to 'human-wide', but I think it would stop there. You might be able to mount an argument for music having some communicative qualities to other species, less so for art but none at all for math. Once again, and as usual...IMO! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ mathematics is a universal language as is art and music..merle ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ PBS, Math, logic, reason like all delusions should come with the caveat 'suitable for everyday use'. As a universal human language to communicate our logical concepts it's very useful, but it should never be mistaken for reality. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
huh bill? if you are not attached to your car it cannot be driven to your destination so on that premises a car is real hence one's intellectualisations are real surely? merle Merle, I believe someone is attached to their intellect when they believe their intellectualizations are real. I am using my intellect right now to write this sentence. You can use your intellect (or anything else, like your car) and not be attached to it. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill...what makes you believe that others on this forum are attached to their intellect?.. to construct this sentence you had to use your intellect surely?..merle  Merle, I don't have any fear of my intellect. I use it much of the time. I am not attached to my intellect. I know it produces delusions. These delusions come and go like clouds in the sky. The clouds may partially cover the sun sometimes, but I always no the sun is there and the clouds will pass. I do not fear clouds. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill...what fear do you have of the intellect?.. without the human brain and intellect yes based on logic  you would not be typing this message to edgar .. merle  Edgar, I'd agree with every word you say below if you would just erase the three-word phrase the external reality in the last sentence. Or if you want to keep the word count constant you could substitute the phrase the intellectual delusion... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Math is a subset of logic. Think of software which incorporates both. Would it work for you if I said that the world of forms is a logico-mathematical computational system? Human math and logic are approximations of that in human mental models of reality. They work because they do, in the large part, accurately model the external reality of the world of forms Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 7:01 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic of reality. Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard
[Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, There is no non-sensual experience. Anything non-sensual is delusion. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  sensual...what about non sensual?..merle  Merle, Experience (as I define it - sensual) is always real as real as real can be. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àso bill...experience is always real as real as real can be? merle àMerle, Yes. Experience is not a delusion. That's all. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃâàÃâàanything that is not a delusion for you bill?..merle ÃâàI didn't really finish my thought below. It should read: 'I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know that it is delusional.' ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Edgar, I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, This appears to be part of your problem in understanding the nature of the world of forms. The math out there doesn't consist of ideal circles, squares, and lines as some of the ancient Greeks thought. The math our there is like software that continually computes the current state of reality in the present moment. It has nothing to do with idealized geometry... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 11:35 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, I fundamentally disagree with you. Math is no difference than logic or reason. I know many think that math represents reality, exists 'out there' and we 'discover it'. IMO math is just a projection of human intellect. We project it on reality the very same way we project all delusions. In reality there are no integers, no straight line, no circles, etc... That's the way I see it anyway... --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The math's an analogy. But I will speak up for math by stating math does something different than mirror the small individual's intellect. Perhaps it mirrors the essential uncreated mind :) Like reality it has a certain independence from thoughts and selves. Unlike reality, it's not reality. --Chris Thanks, --Chris chris@ +1-301-270-6524 On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to
[Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, You can communicate to other folk with art because they are human. They have Human Nature which is to say an intellect, emotions, etc... It would be the same as communicating via language or mathematics or facial expressions. These only work because you are directing them to another human. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  goodness me i had better hang up my hat with my art...it's all based on perception... and now your saying it's all false!.. how come i can communicate with folk in that fashion then?... is their understanding false...and without a word being said they and me are on the same page?..merle  Merle, The 'bamboozling' is done by your intellect. What you're describing is not pure experience, it's a perception - perhaps what you'd call a false perception. Like thinking you see something but when you go check there's nothing there. That's a fault of your perception, not your experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill..i disagree.. sometimes you can hear something, feel something ,taste something, smell something, and it is not always as it appears... one can be bamboozled here as well as in the intellectualisations...àat the end of the day.. nothing is what it appears to be.. àall can appear as a distortion from reality merle àMerle, I don't know how much clearer or more logical I can be. I'll try again: All intellectualizations (thoughts, judgments, classifications, associations, etc...) are delusions. Only experience (sensual: hearing, seeing, feeling, tasting, smelling) are not delusions. Okay? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâàbill you need to state these delusions clearly and logically so all of us on this forum know precisely what you mean... merle ÃâàEdgar, I'll return the compliment by acknowledging that you have some of the most complex and persistent delusions I have ever come across. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Actually you need to know much much more to function well in reality of the world of forms which you seem to do quite well. By denying that is reality you deny the reality of most of your existence - all of it other than the 3 hours a week you spend sitting... Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 7:08 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, This appears to be part of your problem in understanding the nature of the world of forms. The math out there doesn't consist of ideal circles, squares, and lines as some of the ancient Greeks thought. The math our there is like software that continually computes the current state of reality in the present moment. It has nothing to do with idealized geometry... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 11:35 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, I fundamentally disagree with you. Math is no difference than logic or reason. I know many think that math represents reality, exists 'out there' and we 'discover it'. IMO math is just a projection of human intellect. We project it on reality the very same way we project all delusions. In reality there are no integers, no straight line, no circles, etc... That's the way I see it anyway... --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The math's an analogy. But I will speak up for math by stating math does something different than mirror the small individual's intellect. Perhaps it mirrors the essential uncreated mind :) Like reality it has a certain independence from thoughts and selves. Unlike reality, it's not reality. --Chris Thanks, --Chris chris@ +1-301-270-6524 On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same.
[Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, All experiences are first-hand. They are sensual. Perceptions come from your intellect. The way they are constructed is learned. For example some Western subcultures perceive the wearing of the skin and head of a dead fox around your neck as beautiful. Some subcultures would perceive that as grotesque. It's all learned behavior. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill..are you saying you are happy to accept second hand experiences?...merle  Merle, My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as beautiful. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ààbill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification please..merle I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. But have also experienced Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃâàÃâàbill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle ÃâàMerle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàlogic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàEdgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic of reality. Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to it, THEN it becomes 2. They would regard 2=1+1 and 2=2 to be
[Zen] Huang Po on Thinking and Seeing
This is mainly for Merle. I thought it might help if I enlisted a little help from one of my buddies... ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
There's life on Mars? You'd better break the news to David Bowie!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
You mean you knew and you were going to send them by mail?? You rebel, you!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle,br/br/I think the confusion here is because you're referring to the relative (nothing wrong with that!) and Bill! is talking from the absolute.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Religions
Change 'hallucinations' to 'delusions' in the graphic below and by George I think you've got it! ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
would i be that silly?..merle You mean you knew and you were going to send them by mail?? You rebel, you! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 9:28:04 AM ah i see..as if i did not before merle Now we're on the same page! Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 8:21:28 AM mike..i see..gold tops and blue meenies?...is that the shroom page we are on? how things change in late 60's they were top tucker in many circles.. merle Merle, Yeh, but I was originally talking about the shrooms they traditionally don't serve in your local restaurant.. ; ) Mike mike.. milky saffrons are top tucker in the very best restaurants and much sort after .. what do you take me for? a person who has not reached realisation? merle Merle, If we're talking about the same 'shrooms, then do you know you by posting them you could face a 2 to 25 year sentence and possible forfeiture of your house? Best hang onto them until I make it over to NSW sometime! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 6:41:11 AM meaning what mike?... i know what you mean by the mushrooms..but do you? are we on the same mushroom page? something akin to alice in wonderland? hey folk..i just sold one of my drawings: autumn fungi ... i do believe i sent you a pix joe..remember ?... i feel over the moon. as a mother bought it for her daughter for her 30th birthday... it is wonderful to share the visions...and communicate through the universal language of art merle.. NOO!! Merle, I think we have different kinds of mushrooms in mind! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:43:48 AM mike...postal address please i'll send you some...merle Merle, I'm sure you did! I was just giving you the Zen view about 'adding nothing'. Btw, if you're seeing snakes with legs then I want some of those wild mountain mushrooms you must be cooking.. ; ) Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:55:42 AM as if i did not know this mike.. thanks for sharing ... so a sunset just is however... what sort of a world is it if we cannot understand the concept of beauty... ? merle..a snake with legs is a lizard... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Merle, A sunset just is. In Zen terms, adding adjectives to it is like painting legs on a snake. Beauty is not intrinsic to a sunset. In fact, it doesn't even exist *in itself* when you consider it only appears from the perspective of where you stand to view it. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle Merle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical  logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle  Edgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
what is meant by life...? merle There's life on Mars? You'd better break the news to David Bowie! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 9:27:10 AM no no no mike..life is art and art is life..merle Merle, If you go to Mars or the furthest galaxy away from us you will find impermanence, cause and effect, dependent origination, but you won't find art. In relative terms, your 2 hands exist and can be seen, touched etc., but the number '2' exists only in logic and the minds of men. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 8:18:47 AM thank you for the congrats mike the lass is over the moon with my art..says she'll be back for more... her mother said why have you all that beautiful work hidden away it needs to be out there... i prefer to just do art... selling is not in my nature on-line art buying is a great way to get it out there into the market place i cannot agree with you mike..art..look at the bower bird ... maths look at a spider's web... must i go on? merle Merle, Congrats on your sale - it must be satisfying to have someone appreciate what you do to the point of paying money for it. I agree with Bill! that art, maths are only universal in that they apply to humans. The only things that are truly universal are the factors Buddha found: impermanence, non-self, emptiness, cause and effect and that everything depends on prior conditions for its existence (Dependent Origination). Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 6:41:11 AM meaning what mike?... i know what you mean by the mushrooms..but do you? are we on the same mushroom page? something akin to alice in wonderland? hey folk..i just sold one of my drawings: autumn fungi ... i do believe i sent you a pix joe..remember ?... i feel over the moon. as a mother bought it for her daughter for her 30th birthday... it is wonderful to share the visions...and communicate through the universal language of art merle.. NOO!! Merle, I think we have different kinds of mushrooms in mind! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:43:48 AM mike...postal address please i'll send you some...merle Merle, I'm sure you did! I was just giving you the Zen view about 'adding nothing'. Btw, if you're seeing snakes with legs then I want some of those wild mountain mushrooms you must be cooking.. ; ) Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:55:42 AM as if i did not know this mike.. thanks for sharing ... so a sunset just is however... what sort of a world is it if we cannot understand the concept of beauty... ? merle..a snake with legs is a lizard... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Merle, A sunset just is. In Zen terms, adding adjectives to it is like painting legs on a snake. Beauty is not intrinsic to a sunset. In fact, it doesn't even exist *in itself* when you consider it only appears from the perspective of where you stand to view it. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle Merle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: mathematics is
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
cold as hell.. huh.. hell is hot from what i last heard... folk raised many a kiddy in siberia... so what's stopping mankind from raising kiddies in mars?.. merle Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids In fact it's cold as Hell And there's no one there to raise them if you didn't. - from ROCKET MAN by Bernie Taupin ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: There's life on Mars? You'd better break the news to David Bowie!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Religions
i need firm examples of delusions... one size cap does not fit all... this is a one size fits all your ecard... merle Change 'hallucinations' to 'delusions' in the graphic below and by George I think you've got it! ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
i see..so an example of pure perception please bill...merle Merle, All experiences are first-hand. They are sensual. Perceptions come from your intellect. The way they are constructed is learned. For example some Western subcultures perceive the wearing of the skin and head of a dead fox around your neck as beautiful. Some subcultures would perceive that as grotesque. It's all learned behavior. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill..are you saying you are happy to accept second hand experiences?...merle  Merle, My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as beautiful. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:   bill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification please..merle I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. But have also experienced Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:   bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle  Merle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical ÃÆ'‚ logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle ÃÆ'‚ Edgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic of reality. Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural, that is, that there is 1, THEN we add 1 to
Re: [Zen] Huang Po on Thinking and Seeing
seeing is good thinking is bad... is this the correct perception ?.. merle This is mainly for Merle. I thought it might help if I enlisted a little help from one of my buddies... ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
would it be possible for bill to give an example of absolute as in art..and music too the delusion in art and music for that matter is that there is a price that can be paid to acquire it.. all art and music for that matter is priceless the value of it in terms of it's relationship to money is ridiculous... there is no relationship with art or music and money... my own art reflects the absolute... it is a very clear perception of how i see, think and feel and realise merle Merle, I think the confusion here is because you're referring to the relative (nothing wrong with that!) and Bill! is talking from the absolute. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 9:32:02 AM goodness me i had better hang up my hat with my art...it's all based on perception... and now your saying it's all false!.. how come i can communicate with folk in that fashion then?... is their understanding false...and without a word being said they and me are on the same page?..merle Merle, The 'bamboozling' is done by your intellect. What you're describing is not pure experience, it's a perception - perhaps what you'd call a false perception. Like thinking you see something but when you go check there's nothing there. That's a fault of your perception, not your experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill..i disagree.. sometimes you can hear something, feel something ,taste something, smell something, and it is not always as it appears... one can be bamboozled here as well as in the intellectualisations... at the end of the day.. nothing is what it appears to be..  all can appear as a distortion from reality merle  Merle, I don't know how much clearer or more logical I can be. I'll try again: All intellectualizations (thoughts, judgments, classifications, associations, etc...) are delusions. Only experience (sensual: hearing, seeing, feeling, tasting, smelling) are not delusions. Okay? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill you need to state these delusions clearly and logically so all of us on this forum know precisely what you mean... merle  Edgar, I'll return the compliment by acknowledging that you have some of the most complex and persistent delusions I have ever come across. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Actually you need to know much much more to function well in reality of the world of forms which you seem to do quite well. By denying that is reality you deny the reality of most of your existence - all of it other than the 3 hours a week you spend sitting... Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 7:08 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, This appears to be part of your problem in understanding the nature of the world of forms. The math out there doesn't consist of ideal circles, squares, and lines as some of the ancient Greeks thought. The math our there is like software that continually computes the current state of reality in the present moment. It has nothing to do with idealized geometry... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 11:35 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, I fundamentally disagree with you. Math is no difference than logic or reason. I know many think that math represents reality, exists 'out there' and we 'discover it'. IMO math is just a projection of human intellect. We project it on reality the very same way we project all delusions. In reality there are no integers, no straight line, no circles, etc... That's the way I see it anyway... --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The math's an analogy. But I will speak up for math by stating math does something different than mirror the small individual's intellect. Perhaps it mirrors the essential uncreated mind :) Like reality it has a certain independence from thoughts and selves. Unlike reality, it's not reality. --Chris Thanks, --Chris chris@ +1-301-270-6524 On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Um You asked for my postal address!br/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Well, at least something that can reproduce! Are you saying there's no difference between organic and inorganic material?? I've yet to meet a rock that can do calculus, finger-paint or whistle a tune!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle,br/br/Umm, they're lyrics from a song by Elton John.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
[Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, An example of a perception: a beautiful sunset. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  i see..so an example of pure perception please bill...merle  Merle, All experiences are first-hand. They are sensual. Perceptions come from your intellect. The way they are constructed is learned. For example some Western subcultures perceive the wearing of the skin and head of a dead fox around your neck as beautiful. Some subcultures would perceive that as grotesque. It's all learned behavior. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill..are you saying you are happy to accept second hand experiences?...merle àMerle, My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as beautiful. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃâàÃâàbill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification please..merle I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. But have also experienced Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàMerle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàlogic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàEdgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic of reality. Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be
Re: [Zen] Huang Po on Thinking and Seeing
Merle, First of all perceptions are neither good or bad, they're just delusional. There only 'bad' if you form attachments to them (believe they are real). In the quote my interpretations is 'seeing' is experience and 'thinking' is perception and other intellectual activities. The quote is: The foolish reject what they see and not what they think;... This to me a caution about placing more importance in thinking than experience. ..the wise reject what they think and not what they see. This to me is an encouragement to put less importance on what you think and more on what you experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   seeing is good  thinking is bad... is this the correct perception ?.. merle  This is mainly for Merle. I thought it might help if I enlisted a little help from one of my buddies... ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, It would not be possible for me to give you an example of an absolute in art or music because the valuation of all art and music are subjective. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   would it be possible for bill to give an example of absolute as in art..and music too the delusion in art and music for that matter is that there is a price that can be paid to acquire it.. all art and music for that matter is priceless  the value of it in terms of it's relationship to money is ridiculous... there is no relationship with art or music and money... my own art reflects the absolute...  it is a very clear perception of how i see,  think and feel and realise merle  Merle, I think the confusion here is because you're referring to the relative (nothing wrong with that!) and Bill! is talking from the absolute. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiitpom@...; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 9:32:02 AM   goodness me i had better hang up my hat with my art...it's all based on perception... and now your saying it's all false!.. how come i can communicate with folk in that fashion then?... is their understanding false...and without a word being said they and me are on the same page?..merle  Merle, The 'bamboozling' is done by your intellect. What you're describing is not pure experience, it's a perception - perhaps what you'd call a false perception. Like thinking you see something but when you go check there's nothing there. That's a fault of your perception, not your experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: àbill..i disagree.. sometimes you can hear something, feel something ,taste something, smell something, and it is not always as it appears... one can be bamboozled here as well as in the intellectualisations...àat the end of the day.. nothing is what it appears to be.. àall can appear as a distortion from reality merle àMerle, I don't know how much clearer or more logical I can be. I'll try again: All intellectualizations (thoughts, judgments, classifications, associations, etc...) are delusions. Only experience (sensual: hearing, seeing, feeling, tasting, smelling) are not delusions. Okay? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâàbill you need to state these delusions clearly and logically so all of us on this forum know precisely what you mean... merle ÃâàEdgar, I'll return the compliment by acknowledging that you have some of the most complex and persistent delusions I have ever come across. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Actually you need to know much much more to function well in reality of the world of forms which you seem to do quite well. By denying that is reality you deny the reality of most of your existence - all of it other than the 3 hours a week you spend sitting... Edgar On Jul 4, 2013, at 7:08 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, I know math is based on logic. That's all I need to know. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, This appears to be part of your problem in understanding the nature of the world of forms. The math out there doesn't consist of ideal circles, squares, and lines as some of the ancient Greeks thought. The math our there is like software that continually computes the current state of reality in the present moment. It has nothing to do with idealized geometry... Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 11:35 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, I fundamentally disagree with you. Math is no difference than logic or reason. I know many think that math represents reality, exists 'out there' and we 'discover it'. IMO math is just a projection of human intellect. We project it on reality the very same way we project all delusions. In reality there are no integers, no straight line, no circles, etc... That's the way I see it anyway... --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The math's an analogy. But I will speak up for math by stating math does something different than mirror the small individual's intellect.
[Zen] Religions Explained...
...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Huang Po on Thinking and Seeing
Perception, delusion, thought... these are all based on each other. Experience just IS. You can't think of anything you don't already know -- thoughts that feel new are just new combinations of pieces of old knowledge. When we do experience experience, mind is aware of it, and does what it does best, which is to 'realize' it (VERY quickly, too). At this point, it is no longer 'experience'. It's like going bird-watching; you quietly sneak upon a beautiful specimen. As you slowly reach for your binoculars, your dumb-ass buddy shouts, HEY!! THERE'S ONE UP THERE!!! HURRY, IT'S FLYING AWAY FOR SOME REASON!! WHY IS IT THAT EVERY TIME I SEE A BIRD IT FLIES AWAY?!?! Your buddy really believes the bird is flying away because it was seen; he is confusing his identifying shouts for the act of seeing the bird. You'd have a much easier time (effortless, in fact) if you went to the woods by yourself, but your buddy is the one with the car! -- On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 9:48 AM EDT Bill! wrote: Merle, First of all perceptions are neither good or bad, they're just delusional. There only 'bad' if you form attachments to them (believe they are real). In the quote my interpretations is 'seeing' is experience and 'thinking' is perception and other intellectual activities. The quote is: The foolish reject what they see and not what they think;... This to me a caution about placing more importance in thinking than experience. ..the wise reject what they think and not what they see. This to me is an encouragement to put less importance on what you think and more on what you experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   seeing is good  thinking is bad... is this the correct perception ?.. merle  This is mainly for Merle. I thought it might help if I enlisted a little help from one of my buddies... ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Huang Po on Thinking and Seeing
PBS, Good analogy! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: Perception, delusion, thought... these are all based on each other. Experience just IS. You can't think of anything you don't already know -- thoughts that feel new are just new combinations of pieces of old knowledge. When we do experience experience, mind is aware of it, and does what it does best, which is to 'realize' it (VERY quickly, too). At this point, it is no longer 'experience'. It's like going bird-watching; you quietly sneak upon a beautiful specimen. As you slowly reach for your binoculars, your dumb-ass buddy shouts, HEY!! THERE'S ONE UP THERE!!! HURRY, IT'S FLYING AWAY FOR SOME REASON!! WHY IS IT THAT EVERY TIME I SEE A BIRD IT FLIES AWAY?!?! Your buddy really believes the bird is flying away because it was seen; he is confusing his identifying shouts for the act of seeing the bird. You'd have a much easier time (effortless, in fact) if you went to the woods by yourself, but your buddy is the one with the car! -- On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 9:48 AM EDT Bill! wrote: Merle, First of all perceptions are neither good or bad, they're just delusional. There only 'bad' if you form attachments to them (believe they are real). In the quote my interpretations is 'seeing' is experience and 'thinking' is perception and other intellectual activities. The quote is: The foolish reject what they see and not what they think;... This to me a caution about placing more importance in thinking than experience. ..the wise reject what they think and not what they see. This to me is an encouragement to put less importance on what you think and more on what you experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:   seeing is good  thinking is bad... is this the correct perception ?.. merle  This is mainly for Merle. I thought it might help if I enlisted a little help from one of my buddies... ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Are you kidding? Your intellect is where your sense of beauty come from? That could not be further away from my experience. Over and over, I have heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time have really listened to it, and been deeply moved. Really also I find listening/seeing/tasting/touching/smelling/introspecting in general rewards attentive attending ;) with a suuden pleasurable deepening appreciation for how things are, for the specific thing at hand a routine occurance. For beauty, there is a saying, when nothing is special, then everything can be special. But our brain will be responding to beauty in any case. Spontaneously. Not because of intellectual something, but our full response to life clearly seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 2:35 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Merle, My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as beautiful. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   bill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification please..merle I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. But have also experienced Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:   bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle  Merle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical  logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle  Edgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic of reality. Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Most people think of 1+1=2 as procedural,
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 3:24 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Merle, All experiences are first-hand. They are sensual. Perceptions come from your intellect. The way they are constructed is learned. For example some Western subcultures perceive the wearing of the skin and head of a dead fox around your neck as beautiful. Some subcultures would perceive that as grotesque. It's all learned behavior. You can't hope to come up with some general rule about beauty that applies to more than one moment. This night, that fur whatever, this gathering, that cloud bank, this breeze, this response. But some other night? Psssh. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill..are you saying you are happy to accept second hand experiences?...merle  Merle, My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as beautiful. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:   bill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification please..merle I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. But have also experienced Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:   bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle  Merle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical ÃÆ'‚ logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle ÃÆ'‚ Edgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic of reality. Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do agree that JUST IF there is such a think that could be called 'karma' it's not so much a moralistic cause-and-effect as it is an intrinsic quality of the act itself. But, I'll continue to poo-poo all claims of karma. ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
I meant how. There’s no way thinking will allow you to differentiate between angry seeing and tired seeing and neutral seeing. It's all a piece - the experiences mediated by introspection are the same experiences mediated by sight. You seem to be claiming your seeing is cut away from the rest of you. And I'm not arguing against your line between the experience and the perception, I am arguing against the exclusion of the sense of introspection from sensory experience. As far as what I write, of course what I write is delusion, but please not i did not write more pleasing, just brighter. Pleasing/displeasing of course have an almost irritable force to put the gaps in our living. Brighter/duller I mean to be as close to just experiencing that sense of introspection as words will let me go. You added the pleasing, that seems to me to very clearly show your resistance to my point of view here. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 1:37 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Chris, Are you saying you don't know HOW I draw such a bright line between experience and perceptions? Or are you saying you don't know WHY I draw the line? 'How' is easy. Experience is sensual and monistic (Buddha Nature). Perceptions are intellectualizations and pluralistic (Human Nature). 'Why' is not as easy to explain, but I'll go through the steps below: - The vast majority of humans experience suffering. - In order to alleviate suffering you must drop attachments. - In order to drop attachments you must awaken to the realization that your identification with a separate and unique 'self' is a delusion. - In order to do that you have to experience monism (Buddha Nature) where all is one and there is no separate self - or anything else for that matter. - In order to do that you must suspend the creation of pluralism and delusions which are products of your intellect (Human Nature). - In order to do that you could employ any number of zen teaching methods including zazen, chanting, bowing and koans. There are probably many other non-zen ways also. - After you do that you can resume your intellect and the creation of pluralism and delusion, but now with the realization that these are delusions. You are melding together Buddha Nature and Human Nature so that Human Nature no longer obscures Buddha Nature. The result of that is Buddha, the Awakened One, 'Tathagata' as it is called in the sutras. ...and speaking of sutras... SUTRA STUFF As you know I don't usually quote things from sutras because I try as much as possible to separate zen and zen practice from the religious doctrines of Buddhism. But just for you here are some labels used in the sutras for concepts I regularly talk about: - Buddha Nature is called 'Tath#257;gatagarbha'. - The experience of Buddha Nature is called 'samadhi' and 'tathata'. - Delusions are called 'maya', although it is also often referred to as 'illusion'. When you are experiencing samadhi/tathata there is no 'red'. There is just the awareness of experience. It's only later when you start intellectualizing that you name your experience 'sight' and then more specifically 'red' and maybe 'pretty', etc... 'Seeing', 'red', 'pretty' do not exist during samadhi/tathata. I often refer to that experience as 'Just THIS!' which is the best I have come up with to describe that experience using English words. Everything you described in the last part of your post starting with Seeing includes whatever mental state... and ending with And when I have not sat, my mind is crinkled, the world grey, and the blue is pale are intellectualizations, poetic though they may be. In fact when you say 'when you sit the world seems brighter and more pleasing than when you don't sit' should in itself be a big, flashing warning light for you that all this is a delusion. Everything I wrote above is of course only IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I still don't know how you draw such a bright line between these experiences are experience and those experiences over there are delusion. There's no sharp dividing lines anywhere that I can find, much less between the natural unlabeled living in sensory experience with red known as red being salient and with thoughts known as thoughts being salient. Either way there is no domain of red and no domain of thoughts. To me the inclusion of awareness of the state of thinking as a sense along with awareness of the state of vision is a very subtle and profound insight I first heard in the Heart Sutra. Out There is In Here, there's no line. Seeing includes whatever mental state (relaxed and on holiday, but bringing up a point with a valued debate friend) we are in, as much as whatever sensory experiences (blue tiles, warm water or noises from children) that consist of living right now. How could this supposed part be excluded? When I have
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Arg, pardon the typos. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 9:51 AM, Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: I meant how. There’s no way thinking will allow you to differentiate between angry seeing and tired seeing and neutral seeing. It's all a piece - the experiences mediated by introspection are the same experiences mediated by sight. You seem to be claiming your seeing is cut away from the rest of you. And I'm not arguing against your line between the experience and the perception, I am arguing against the exclusion of the sense of introspection from sensory experience. As far as what I write, of course what I write is delusion, but please not i did not write more pleasing, just brighter. Pleasing/displeasing of course have an almost irritable Irresistible force to put the gaps back into our living force to put the gaps in our living. Brighter/duller I mean to be as close to just experiencing that sense of introspection as words will let me go. You added the pleasing, that seems to me to very clearly show your resistance to my point of view here. To you my decidedly neutral words have to carry some judgment. But I am used to being clear some days and cloudy others. It's ok. Each day is as it is. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 1:37 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Chris, Are you saying you don't know HOW I draw such a bright line between experience and perceptions? Or are you saying you don't know WHY I draw the line? 'How' is easy. Experience is sensual and monistic (Buddha Nature). Perceptions are intellectualizations and pluralistic (Human Nature). 'Why' is not as easy to explain, but I'll go through the steps below: - The vast majority of humans experience suffering. - In order to alleviate suffering you must drop attachments. - In order to drop attachments you must awaken to the realization that your identification with a separate and unique 'self' is a delusion. - In order to do that you have to experience monism (Buddha Nature) where all is one and there is no separate self - or anything else for that matter. - In order to do that you must suspend the creation of pluralism and delusions which are products of your intellect (Human Nature). - In order to do that you could employ any number of zen teaching methods including zazen, chanting, bowing and koans. There are probably many other non-zen ways also. - After you do that you can resume your intellect and the creation of pluralism and delusion, but now with the realization that these are delusions. You are melding together Buddha Nature and Human Nature so that Human Nature no longer obscures Buddha Nature. The result of that is Buddha, the Awakened One, 'Tathagata' as it is called in the sutras. ...and speaking of sutras... SUTRA STUFF As you know I don't usually quote things from sutras because I try as much as possible to separate zen and zen practice from the religious doctrines of Buddhism. But just for you here are some labels used in the sutras for concepts I regularly talk about: - Buddha Nature is called 'Tath#257;gatagarbha'. - The experience of Buddha Nature is called 'samadhi' and 'tathata'. - Delusions are called 'maya', although it is also often referred to as 'illusion'. When you are experiencing samadhi/tathata there is no 'red'. There is just the awareness of experience. It's only later when you start intellectualizing that you name your experience 'sight' and then more specifically 'red' and maybe 'pretty', etc... 'Seeing', 'red', 'pretty' do not exist during samadhi/tathata. I often refer to that experience as 'Just THIS!' which is the best I have come up with to describe that experience using English words. Everything you described in the last part of your post starting with Seeing includes whatever mental state... and ending with And when I have not sat, my mind is crinkled, the world grey, and the blue is pale are intellectualizations, poetic though they may be. In fact when you say 'when you sit the world seems brighter and more pleasing than when you don't sit' should in itself be a big, flashing warning light for you that all this is a delusion. Everything I wrote above is of course only IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I still don't know how you draw such a bright line between these experiences are experience and those experiences over there are delusion. There's no sharp dividing lines anywhere that I can find, much less between the natural unlabeled living in sensory experience with red known as red being salient and with thoughts known as thoughts being salient. Either way there is no domain of red and no domain of thoughts. To me the inclusion of awareness of the state of thinking as a sense along with awareness of the state of vision is a very subtle and profound insight I first heard in the Heart Sutra. Out There is In Here, there's no line.
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Non-thought is not no mental activity, sitting errect fully present in a moment takes more lively brains/more energetic bodies than sleep. Or are you suggesting that skimming thru life without really inhabiting each moment is the key? Or just falling prey to that Zen temptation of word play, since I wrote of people moved by beauty? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 10:53 AM, pandabananas...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, Mind moves mind. Yours truely, Peebles You: Over and over, I have heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time have really listened to it, and been deeply moved. -- On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:31 PM EDT Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Are you kidding? Your intellect is where your sense of beauty come from? That could not be further away from my experience. Over and over, I have heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time have really listened to it, and been deeply moved. Really also I find listening/seeing/tasting/touching/smelling/introspecting in general rewards attentive attending ;) with a suuden pleasurable deepening appreciation for how things are, for the specific thing at hand a routine occurance. For beauty, there is a saying, when nothing is special, then everything can be special. But our brain will be responding to beauty in any case. Spontaneously. Not because of intellectual something, but our full response to life clearly seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 2:35 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Merle, My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as beautiful. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:   bill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification please..merle I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. But have also experienced Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:   bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle  Merle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical  logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle  Edgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic of reality. Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
yes i am mike...life began as you well know from a single cell...why are you telling me a rock is inorganic? realisation see all as one what has finger painting got to do with it?..merle Well, at least something that can reproduce! Are you saying there's no difference between organic and inorganic material?? I've yet to meet a rock that can do calculus, finger-paint or whistle a tune! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:13:06 PM what is meant by life...? merle There's life on Mars? You'd better break the news to David Bowie! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 9:27:10 AM no no no mike..life is art and art is life..merle Merle, If you go to Mars or the furthest galaxy away from us you will find impermanence, cause and effect, dependent origination, but you won't find art. In relative terms, your 2 hands exist and can be seen, touched etc., but the number '2' exists only in logic and the minds of men. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 8:18:47 AM thank you for the congrats mike the lass is over the moon with my art..says she'll be back for more... her mother said why have you all that beautiful work hidden away it needs to be out there... i prefer to just do art... selling is not in my nature on-line art buying is a great way to get it out there into the market place i cannot agree with you mike..art..look at the bower bird ... maths look at a spider's web... must i go on? merle Merle, Congrats on your sale - it must be satisfying to have someone appreciate what you do to the point of paying money for it. I agree with Bill! that art, maths are only universal in that they apply to humans. The only things that are truly universal are the factors Buddha found: impermanence, non-self, emptiness, cause and effect and that everything depends on prior conditions for its existence (Dependent Origination). Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 6:41:11 AM meaning what mike?... i know what you mean by the mushrooms..but do you? are we on the same mushroom page? something akin to alice in wonderland? hey folk..i just sold one of my drawings: autumn fungi ... i do believe i sent you a pix joe..remember ?... i feel over the moon. as a mother bought it for her daughter for her 30th birthday... it is wonderful to share the visions...and communicate through the universal language of art merle.. NOO!! Merle, I think we have different kinds of mushrooms in mind! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 3:43:48 AM mike...postal address please i'll send you some...merle Merle, I'm sure you did! I was just giving you the Zen view about 'adding nothing'. Btw, if you're seeing snakes with legs then I want some of those wild mountain mushrooms you must be cooking.. ; ) Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:55:42 AM as if i did not know this mike.. thanks for sharing ... so a sunset just is however... what sort of a world is it if we cannot understand the concept of beauty... ? merle..a snake with legs is a lizard... Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Merle, A sunset just is. In Zen terms, adding adjectives to it is like painting legs on a snake. Beauty is not intrinsic to a sunset. In fact, it doesn't even exist *in itself* when you consider it only appears from the perspective of where you stand to view it. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
mike ..i know this... merle Merle, Umm, they're lyrics from a song by Elton John. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:14:56 PM cold as hell.. huh.. hell is hot from what i last heard... folk raised many a kiddy in siberia... so what's stopping mankind from raising kiddies in mars?.. merle Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids In fact it's cold as Hell And there's no one there to raise them if you didn't. - from ROCKET MAN by Bernie Taupin ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: There's life on Mars? You'd better break the news to David Bowie!br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
bill beautiful..your the one saying don't judge..merle Merle, An example of a perception: a beautiful sunset. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  i see..so an example of pure perception please bill...merle  Merle, All experiences are first-hand. They are sensual. Perceptions come from your intellect. The way they are constructed is learned. For example some Western subcultures perceive the wearing of the skin and head of a dead fox around your neck as beautiful. Some subcultures would perceive that as grotesque. It's all learned behavior. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:  bill..are you saying you are happy to accept second hand experiences?...merle  Merle, My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as beautiful. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:   bill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification please..merle I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. But have also experienced Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'‚ ÃÆ'‚ bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle ÃÆ'‚ Merle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Edgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic of reality. Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Subject: Re: [Zen] Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 3, 2013, 8:56 AM PBS (That's going to be my TLA (Three Letter Acronym) for Pandabananasock from now on)... I'll ignore all the math but do
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle,br/br/Yes, a rock is inorganic. And it can't perform art, language or math. Therefore they are not universal. A rock, however, is impermanent, has no inherent self and exist due to prior conditions. These things *are* universal. I can't explain it clearer than that.br/br/in·or·gan·ic (nôr-gnk)br/adj.br/1.br/a. Involving neither organic life nor the products of organic life.br/b. Not composed of organic matter.br/2. Chemistry Of or relating to compounds not containing hydrocarbon groups.br/3. Not arising in normal growth; artificial.br/4. Lacking system or structure.br/inor·gani·cal·ly adv.br/The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.br/br/ br/inorganic [ˌɪnɔːˈgænɪk]br/adjbr/1. (Life Sciences Allied Applications / Biology) not having the structure or characteristics of living organisms; not organicbr/2. (Chemistry) relating to or denoting chemical compounds that do not contain carbon Compare organic [4]br/3. not having a system, structure, or ordered relation of parts; amorphousbr/4. not resulting from or produced by growth; artificialbr/5. (Linguistics) Linguistics denoting or relating to a sound or letter introduced into the pronunciation or spelling of a word at some point in its historybr/inorganically advbr/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Huang Po on Thinking and Seeing
PBS, In fact you could say that most of our perceptions are like analogies themselves...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@... wrote: Bill!, It takes one to know one! ~PeeBeeEss -- On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 10:30 AM EDT Bill! wrote: PBS, Good analogy! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, pandabananasock@ wrote: Perception, delusion, thought... these are all based on each other. Experience just IS. You can't think of anything you don't already know -- thoughts that feel new are just new combinations of pieces of old knowledge. When we do experience experience, mind is aware of it, and does what it does best, which is to 'realize' it (VERY quickly, too). At this point, it is no longer 'experience'. It's like going bird-watching; you quietly sneak upon a beautiful specimen. As you slowly reach for your binoculars, your dumb-ass buddy shouts, HEY!! THERE'S ONE UP THERE!!! HURRY, IT'S FLYING AWAY FOR SOME REASON!! WHY IS IT THAT EVERY TIME I SEE A BIRD IT FLIES AWAY?!?! Your buddy really believes the bird is flying away because it was seen; he is confusing his identifying shouts for the act of seeing the bird. You'd have a much easier time (effortless, in fact) if you went to the woods by yourself, but your buddy is the one with the car! -- On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 9:48 AM EDT Bill! wrote: Merle, First of all perceptions are neither good or bad, they're just delusional. There only 'bad' if you form attachments to them (believe they are real). In the quote my interpretations is 'seeing' is experience and 'thinking' is perception and other intellectual activities. The quote is: The foolish reject what they see and not what they think;... This to me a caution about placing more importance in thinking than experience. ..the wise reject what they think and not what they see. This to me is an encouragement to put less importance on what you think and more on what you experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:   seeing is good  thinking is bad... is this the correct perception ?.. merle  This is mainly for Merle. I thought it might help if I enlisted a little help from one of my buddies... ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Chris, You wrote: You can't hope to come up with some general rule about beauty that applies to more than one moment. This night, that fur whatever, this gathering, that cloud bank, this breeze, this response. But some other night? What you've correctly stated above is why I say the judgement of beauty is relative and not absolute. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 3:24 AM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Merle, All experiences are first-hand. They are sensual. Perceptions come from your intellect. The way they are constructed is learned. For example some Western subcultures perceive the wearing of the skin and head of a dead fox around your neck as beautiful. Some subcultures would perceive that as grotesque. It's all learned behavior. You can't hope to come up with some general rule about beauty that applies to more than one moment. This night, that fur whatever, this gathering, that cloud bank, this breeze, this response. But some other night? Psssh. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: à bill..are you saying you are happy to accept second hand experiences?...merle à Merle, My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as beautiful. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâà Ãâà bill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification please..merle I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. But have also experienced Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà Merle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâà Edgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic of reality. Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 3, 2013 8:12 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Bill!: You're gonna ignore the math? I thought you said you were looking for an impersonal language a couple posts ago... :D The thing about using math that way is that eventually it leads you back to the beginning. We use mathematics as an expression of the model, then we use the model as an expression of the math. Then we realize that both are models of each other and the same, and experience encompasses all -- no need for anything else. Rivers and mountains become rivers and mountains again! ~PeeBeeEss On Wed, 7/3/13, Bill!
[Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Chris, I don't resist your POV as long as you're describing perceptions. Perceptions are pluaristic (which makes them delusions) so all the dualistic judgements can and do apply. When you used the word 'brighter' you AUTOMATICALLY imply dualism. Something can't be 'brighter' unless it's compared to something else that is 'less bright'. I substituted the word 'pleasing' for 'brighter', but I can go with 'brighter'. All I'm trying to say here is that EXPERIENCE (Buddha Nature) is monistic so it does not have any pluralistic qualities such as bright, brighter, brightest, dull, duller, dullest. Those are PERCEPTIONS, not raw experience. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I meant how. Thereâs no way thinking will allow you to differentiate between angry seeing and tired seeing and neutral seeing. It's all a piece - the experiences mediated by introspection are the same experiences mediated by sight. You seem to be claiming your seeing is cut away from the rest of you. And I'm not arguing against your line between the experience and the perception, I am arguing against the exclusion of the sense of introspection from sensory experience. As far as what I write, of course what I write is delusion, but please not i did not write more pleasing, just brighter. Pleasing/displeasing of course have an almost irritable force to put the gaps in our living. Brighter/duller I mean to be as close to just experiencing that sense of introspection as words will let me go. You added the pleasing, that seems to me to very clearly show your resistance to my point of view here. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 1:37 AM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Chris, Are you saying you don't know HOW I draw such a bright line between experience and perceptions? Or are you saying you don't know WHY I draw the line? 'How' is easy. Experience is sensual and monistic (Buddha Nature). Perceptions are intellectualizations and pluralistic (Human Nature). 'Why' is not as easy to explain, but I'll go through the steps below: - The vast majority of humans experience suffering. - In order to alleviate suffering you must drop attachments. - In order to drop attachments you must awaken to the realization that your identification with a separate and unique 'self' is a delusion. - In order to do that you have to experience monism (Buddha Nature) where all is one and there is no separate self - or anything else for that matter. - In order to do that you must suspend the creation of pluralism and delusions which are products of your intellect (Human Nature). - In order to do that you could employ any number of zen teaching methods including zazen, chanting, bowing and koans. There are probably many other non-zen ways also. - After you do that you can resume your intellect and the creation of pluralism and delusion, but now with the realization that these are delusions. You are melding together Buddha Nature and Human Nature so that Human Nature no longer obscures Buddha Nature. The result of that is Buddha, the Awakened One, 'Tathagata' as it is called in the sutras. ...and speaking of sutras... SUTRA STUFF As you know I don't usually quote things from sutras because I try as much as possible to separate zen and zen practice from the religious doctrines of Buddhism. But just for you here are some labels used in the sutras for concepts I regularly talk about: - Buddha Nature is called 'Tath#257;gatagarbha'. - The experience of Buddha Nature is called 'samadhi' and 'tathata'. - Delusions are called 'maya', although it is also often referred to as 'illusion'. When you are experiencing samadhi/tathata there is no 'red'. There is just the awareness of experience. It's only later when you start intellectualizing that you name your experience 'sight' and then more specifically 'red' and maybe 'pretty', etc... 'Seeing', 'red', 'pretty' do not exist during samadhi/tathata. I often refer to that experience as 'Just THIS!' which is the best I have come up with to describe that experience using English words. Everything you described in the last part of your post starting with Seeing includes whatever mental state... and ending with And when I have not sat, my mind is crinkled, the world grey, and the blue is pale are intellectualizations, poetic though they may be. In fact when you say 'when you sit the world seems brighter and more pleasing than when you don't sit' should in itself be a big, flashing warning light for you that all this is a delusion. Everything I wrote above is of course only IMO...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: I still don't know how you draw such a bright line between these experiences are experience and those experiences over there are delusion. There's no sharp
[Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle, Merle, Merle... You're beginning to sound like Edgar - always projecting your thoughts and ideas on what I say (or don't say in this case) and misquoting me. I have never said 'don't judge'. I've only said that all judgments are products of your intellect and are therefore deslusive. I never said 'don't judge' or that 'judging is bad'. What I've said that you've interpreted as that is 'judgments are delusions'. As long as you recognize and realize them as delusions, I say 'Go for it!. Judge all you want!'. If however you find you are becoming attached to your judgments (believing they are real or somehow are revealing the 'truth'),and as a result of those attachments they are causing you to suffer, then I do have a suggestion of how to alleviate all that - zazen. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  bill beautiful..your the one saying don't judge..merle  Merle, An example of a perception: a beautiful sunset. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ài see..so an example of pure perception please bill...merle àMerle, All experiences are first-hand. They are sensual. Perceptions come from your intellect. The way they are constructed is learned. For example some Western subcultures perceive the wearing of the skin and head of a dead fox around your neck as beautiful. Some subcultures would perceive that as grotesque. It's all learned behavior. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâàbill..are you saying you are happy to accept second hand experiences?...merle ÃâàMerle, My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as beautiful. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification please..merle I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. But have also experienced Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàbill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàMerle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâàlogic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡ÃâàEdgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model the actual logic of reality. Edgar On Jul 3, 2013, at 8:55 PM, Bill! wrote: Chris, Mathematics doesn't reveal reality. Mathematics only mirrors the human intellect. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: The thing I like about math as a source of analogies for zen is that it shows how two different things csn br exactly the same. Linear equations over reals are lines. Lines are linear equations. Numbers, points, the constituents drop away as the eternal unity is seen. Thanks, --Chris
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
without the rock we would not be here..merle Merle, Yes, a rock is inorganic. And it can't perform art, language or math. Therefore they are not universal. A rock, however, is impermanent, has no inherent self and exist due to prior conditions. These things *are* universal. I can't explain it clearer than that. in·or·gan·ic (nôr-gnk) adj. 1. a. Involving neither organic life nor the products of organic life. b. Not composed of organic matter. 2. Chemistry Of or relating to compounds not containing hydrocarbon groups. 3. Not arising in normal growth; artificial. 4. Lacking system or structure. inor·gani·cal·ly adv. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. inorganic [ˌɪnɔːˈgænɪk] adj 1. (Life Sciences Allied Applications / Biology) not having the structure or characteristics of living organisms; not organic 2. (Chemistry) relating to or denoting chemical compounds that do not contain carbon Compare organic [4] 3. not having a system, structure, or ordered relation of parts; amorphous 4. not resulting from or produced by growth; artificial 5. (Linguistics) Linguistics denoting or relating to a sound or letter introduced into the pronunciation or spelling of a word at some point in its history inorganically adv Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 11:13:31 PM yes i am mike...life began as you well know from a single cell...why are you telling me a rock is inorganic? realisation see all as one what has finger painting got to do with it?..merle Well, at least something that can reproduce! Are you saying there's no difference between organic and inorganic material?? I've yet to meet a rock that can do calculus, finger-paint or whistle a tune! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:13:06 PM what is meant by life...? merle There's life on Mars? You'd better break the news to David Bowie! Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 9:27:10 AM no no no mike..life is art and art is life..merle Merle, If you go to Mars or the furthest galaxy away from us you will find impermanence, cause and effect, dependent origination, but you won't find art. In relative terms, your 2 hands exist and can be seen, touched etc., but the number '2' exists only in logic and the minds of men. Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 8:18:47 AM thank you for the congrats mike the lass is over the moon with my art..says she'll be back for more... her mother said why have you all that beautiful work hidden away it needs to be out there... i prefer to just do art... selling is not in my nature on-line art buying is a great way to get it out there into the market place i cannot agree with you mike..art..look at the bower bird ... maths look at a spider's web... must i go on? merle Merle, Congrats on your sale - it must be satisfying to have someone appreciate what you do to the point of paying money for it. I agree with Bill! that art, maths are only universal in that they apply to humans. The only things that are truly universal are the factors Buddha found: impermanence, non-self, emptiness, cause and effect and that everything depends on prior conditions for its existence (Dependent Origination). Mike Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad From: Merle Lester merlewiit...@yahoo.com; To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com; Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma Sent: Fri, Jul 5, 2013 6:41:11 AM meaning what mike?... i know what you mean by the mushrooms..but do you? are we on the same mushroom page? something akin to alice in wonderland? hey folk..i just sold one of my drawings: autumn fungi ... i do believe i sent you a pix joe..remember ?... i feel over the moon. as a mother bought it for her
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Merle,br/br/I'd say the opposite is true. Rocks 'exist' because we name and label them as such.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
And additionally are you really claiming that you don't experience beauty as a thing of the moment but only as something to make rules or reason about? And PBS, was there some non-rhetorical point about mind moves? Other than the joke about mouths flapping? Do you also have some concept of monistic experience which excludes what may post hoc be called an appreciation for the richness the trip? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 9:42 PM, Chris Austin-Lane ch...@austin-lane.net wrote: So you are claiming that states of the brain and non thought are mutually exclusive? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 6:44 PM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Chris, Non-thought is no intellectual activity - no creating pluralism which is the foundation of delusion and attachment. Later you can reincorporate thought without attachment by realizing it as delusive. It doesn't mean all your bodily functions shut down. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Non-thought is not no mental activity, sitting errect fully present in a moment takes more lively brains/more energetic bodies than sleep. Or are you suggesting that skimming thru life without really inhabiting each moment is the key? Or just falling prey to that Zen temptation of word play, since I wrote of people moved by beauty? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 10:53 AM, pandabananasock@... wrote: Chris, Mind moves mind. Yours truely, Peebles You: Over and over, I have heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time have really listened to it, and been deeply moved. -- On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:31 PM EDT Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Are you kidding? Your intellect is where your sense of beauty come from? That could not be further away from my experience. Over and over, I have heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time have really listened to it, and been deeply moved. Really also I find listening/seeing/tasting/touching/smelling/introspecting in general rewards attentive attending ;) with a suuden pleasurable deepening appreciation for how things are, for the specific thing at hand a routine occurance. For beauty, there is a saying, when nothing is special, then everything can be special. But our brain will be responding to beauty in any case. Spontaneously. Not because of intellectual something, but our full response to life clearly seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 2:35 AM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Merle, My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as beautiful. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Â Â bill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification please..merle I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. But have also experienced Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÂÂ ÂÂ bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle ÂÂ Merle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: mathematics is beautiful because it is logical ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ logic is beautiful because it is so pointing to the truth truth is so beautiful because it points and parts the way for realisation to take place .. merle ÃÆ'‚ÂÂ Edgar, Reality is not bound by logic. I'd buy your statement if you said 'math words because it accurately models our logically-based perception of reality', but I suppose that wouldn't work for you. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, No, no, no. Human math works because it DOES accurately model
[Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Chris, I really think getting down to this level of discussion of such things on a zen forum is uncalled for and probably leads to more confusion than clarification, but I will answer your question - only because you're one of my favorites... [:x] First of all your phrase 'states of the brain' is problematic. It's taken our discourse out of the realm of functions (software) into physicality (hardware). I'll try to explain my understanding of all this using the terms you've used which will require me to use subject/object language, so don't hold be too tightly to what I say here. I don't claim to be an expert in this area (physiology) so I'm just explaining this the way I think of it. The brain has many functions. The brain's functions don't have to be either all on or all off. Thought is one function; registering sensual experience is one function and awareness is one function. Some functions are autonomous and continue whether you are aware of them or not. Using this skeleton outline I would say: * Buddha Nature = sensual experience * Intellection = Human Nature * Realizing Buddha Nature = sensual experience + awareness - thought * Human Nature = thought + awareness - sensual experience * Enlightenment = sensual awareness + thought + awareness Is that mathematical enough for you? ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: So you are claiming that states of the brain and non thought are mutually exclusive? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 6:44 PM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Chris, Non-thought is no intellectual activity - no creating pluralism which is the foundation of delusion and attachment. Later you can reincorporate thought without attachment by realizing it as delusive. It doesn't mean all your bodily functions shut down. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Non-thought is not no mental activity, sitting errect fully present in a moment takes more lively brains/more energetic bodies than sleep. Or are you suggesting that skimming thru life without really inhabiting each moment is the key? Or just falling prey to that Zen temptation of word play, since I wrote of people moved by beauty? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 10:53 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Chris, Mind moves mind. Yours truely, Peebles You: Over and over, I have heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time have really listened to it, and been deeply moved. -- On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:31 PM EDT Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Are you kidding? Your intellect is where your sense of beauty come from? That could not be further away from my experience. Over and over, I have heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time have really listened to it, and been deeply moved. Really also I find listening/seeing/tasting/touching/smelling/introspecting in general rewards attentive attending ;) with a suuden pleasurable deepening appreciation for how things are, for the specific thing at hand a routine occurance. For beauty, there is a saying, when nothing is special, then everything can be special. But our brain will be responding to beauty in any case. Spontaneously. Not because of intellectual something, but our full response to life clearly seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 2:35 AM, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as beautiful. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote: Ãâ Ãâ bill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification please..merle I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. But have also experienced Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester wrote: ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ Merle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then
[Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Bingo! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote: Merle,br/br/I'd say the opposite is true. Rocks 'exist' because we name and label them as such.br/br/Mikebr/br/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Re: Say Bye-Bye to the Delusion of Cause-and-Effect and Karma
Chris, To respond to the part of your post below I assume is directed to me... I don't EXPERIENCE 'beauty' or 'ugly' or 'red' or 'pleasing' or 'rocks', etc...; I PERCEIVE these. Perception is a function of what I call my intellect - the origin of plurality. If it would sound better I could break up 'intellect' into 'logic' and 'emotion', or I could say there are two things: intellect (logic) and emotion (maybe call this 'heart'?). Whether they are all one thing or two things they are what make up Human Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: And additionally are you really claiming that you don't experience beauty as a thing of the moment but only as something to make rules or reason about? And PBS, was there some non-rhetorical point about mind moves? Other than the joke about mouths flapping? Do you also have some concept of monistic experience which excludes what may post hoc be called an appreciation for the richness the trip? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 9:42 PM, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: So you are claiming that states of the brain and non thought are mutually exclusive? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 6:44 PM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Chris, Non-thought is no intellectual activity - no creating pluralism which is the foundation of delusion and attachment. Later you can reincorporate thought without attachment by realizing it as delusive. It doesn't mean all your bodily functions shut down. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Non-thought is not no mental activity, sitting errect fully present in a moment takes more lively brains/more energetic bodies than sleep. Or are you suggesting that skimming thru life without really inhabiting each moment is the key? Or just falling prey to that Zen temptation of word play, since I wrote of people moved by beauty? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 10:53 AM, pandabananasock@ wrote: Chris, Mind moves mind. Yours truely, Peebles You: Over and over, I have heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time have really listened to it, and been deeply moved. -- On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 12:31 PM EDT Chris Austin-Lane wrote: Are you kidding? Your intellect is where your sense of beauty come from? That could not be further away from my experience. Over and over, I have heard some music without really paying attention, and tuen one time have really listened to it, and been deeply moved. Really also I find listening/seeing/tasting/touching/smelling/introspecting in general rewards attentive attending ;) with a suuden pleasurable deepening appreciation for how things are, for the specific thing at hand a routine occurance. For beauty, there is a saying, when nothing is special, then everything can be special. But our brain will be responding to beauty in any case. Spontaneously. Not because of intellectual something, but our full response to life clearly seen. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Jul 5, 2013 2:35 AM, Bill! BillSmart@ wrote: Merle, My intellect judged them to be beautiful. That judgement was probably something I learned to mimic from hearing other people describe things as beautiful. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: Ãâ Ãâ bill..how do you know they were beautiful? clarification please..merle I have indeed perceived many beautiful sunsets. But have also experienced Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote: ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ bill..is that so?...is that what you have realised or have been told to believe think and feel?.. have you never seen a beautiful sunset ?...merle ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ Merle, Math is judged to be beautiful because it is logical. Yes. Logic is judged to be beautiful because it deceives us into thinking we understand the truth. Truth is not beautiful or not-beautiful. Truth just is. All judgments come from your delusive intellect and self. If you are looking for 'realization' [Buddha Nature?] then you'll have to let go your attachments to such things as self, intellect, truth and beauty. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
