Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[John W. Redelfs]

George Cobabe favored us with:

I am the new guy and perhaps I misunderstood when I read the rules, but I
thought that politics was a taboo subject.  If not, then this list will be
very much more interesting, but nowhere near as uplifting as I was hoping.


George, I think that a list can be uplifting and interesting at the same 
time.  And a little political discussion among friends just makes the 
conversation more interesting as long as we all remember that we are 
brothers and sisters in the gospel.  This list may not be as uplifting as 
you were hoping, but I do not know of a list that is more uplifting.  A 
member of my stake presidency hangs out here.  Several of the members are 
former bishops.  At least one is a current bishop, and another is a current 
stake president.  Even those who have quit the list in disgust during one 
of our rare flame wars have returned after failing to find anything better 
out there in cyberspace.

It is true that Marc, like many Canadians, is a tad anti-American.  But 
believe me, there are a few here on the list that are pretty anti-Canadian 
too.  For myself, I don't think that either country would fit very well 
into a terrestrial, much less a celestial, world.  I guess it all depends 
on your point of view.  I am a saint first and an US citizen a distant 
second.  I would hope that the Canadians on the list are saints first and 
Canadians second.  If Yuko Takei were here, she could explain to you that 
both countries are like hell compared with Japan, the only part of the 
Garden of Eden that survived to the 21st century.

Anyway, forgive me for sermonizing.  I'm incurably pedantic.

John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
"...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest" --Joseph
Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248
***
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[John W. Redelfs]

Marc A. Schindler favored us with:

> Obviously yes because we know from the Doctrine and Covenants that the
> Founding Fathers of the United States were inspired men raised up by God to
> rebel against Britain.

It actually doesn't say this. See below.


But it does say that the US Founders were raised up by God to write the 
Constitution.  And it is hard to imagine how that Constitution could have 
been written if we had remain colonies.  So, while "it actually doesn't say 
this," it is implied very strongly.  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[John W. Redelfs]

George Cobabe favored us with:

Hate to be picky Marc, but the French Revolution is generally thought to
have occurred between 1789 and 1799, sometime after the American Revolution.
You might recall the keys dates of 1776 and 1782 for America.  I think it
was the French following the American example.


He's got you there, Marc.  It is unusual for you to make such a gaffe.  You 
must be having a bad day.  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] New guy

[John W. Redelfs]

Stacy Smith favored us with:

Well, I'd like to know just how many such lists there are.  Judging from 
other lists on other subjects, there must be hundreds out there.

For a while I was the Open Directory Project editor in charge of listing 
the LDS email discussion lists.  There are 274 listed at the moment, but 
few that generate enough traffic to actually sustain a 
conversation.  Probably the most active of all LDS lists is Mormon-L.  But 
it is not exactly a faith promoting experience.  A couple of years ago I 
promised I would never again participate there.  I made the decision after 
a list member referred to Boyd KKK Packer.  That didn't disgust me so much 
as the fact that no one on the list seemed outraged by it but myself.

Check out 
http://dmoz.org/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Christianity/Denominations/Latter-day_Saints/Mailing_Lists/


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
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intellectuals" --Uncle Bob
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] New guy

[John W. Redelfs]

Rick Mathis favored us with:

At 05:39 AM 12/17/2002 -0700, George wrote:

Boy - you lost me there - are you asking about abilities (to argue) or the
size of bullets (so as to end the argument)?


Yes.


I am in love with my Kalishnikov, 7.62x39mm.  It is Chinese made and the 
sweetest weapon I've ever gone plinking with.  Not only that, it was cheap, 
only a little more than my unfired SKS which only cost me 70 dollars.  --JWR

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RE: [ZION] No biological basis for race

[John W. Redelfs]

Stephen Beecroft favored us with:

It's one thing to say that current racial classifications are imprecise,
or getting blurred, or not useful for this or that purpose. All such
proclamations may or may not be true. But to say that race doesn't exist
is to be tautologically incorrect -- people whose ancestry originated in
different parts of the world look more like others with similar ancestry
than they do like those with ancestry from other parts of the world. And
children look like their parents, so to say that there is no biological
basis for race is to play the fool.


I agree.  Sometimes my son gives me the hand jive when all I want to do is 
shake hands.  Give me a "whiteman's handshake" I say.  Then, slapping my 
forehead I realize, my son isn't a white man.  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] No biological basis for race

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 14:45 12/17/2002 -0700, M Marc & St Stephan wrote:



to play the fool.
>
> Stephen

"Play the fool" is not a scientific concept either ;-)




Hey, wait, that's my part!   You'se guys can't be stealing my part ...


Till  who even got a new costume for the next show

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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[Rick Mathis]

At 11:17 PM 12/17/2002 -0900, the BLT wrote:

It is true that Marc, like many Canadians, is a tad anti-American.  But 
believe me, there are a few here on the list that are pretty anti-Canadian 
too.

But how could any rational man, having seen the brilliant documentary 
"Canadian Bacon" be otherwise?

Rick Mathis

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Re: [ZION] No biological basis for race

[Mark Gregson]

> Hey, wait, that's my part!   You'se guys can't be stealing my part ...
> 
> 
> Till  who even got a new costume for the next show

In the spirit of Christmas, Till, I forgive you for tempting me to the utmost with 
your provocative statements.  That's a most humble forgiveness, too.

=  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =

   
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RE: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal

[Jim Cobabe]

The gathering at the city council meeting last night was a zoo.  I got 
there about 6:00.  The public comment session was supposed to begin at 
7:00, but the crowd had already filled up two overflow rooms and was 
winding down the corridors, and there were already many hundreds of 
people waiting.

A small group with a vocal presence was the most disruptive.  These were 
"Jesus" people, come to threaten the Mormons with hellfire and 
damnation.  Several of these gained the microphone during the open 
period.  They asserted that Jesus commands their belligerence and 
rudeness.  One of them asserted that the Pledge to the flag which began 
the session should have been directed to Mormon dictatorship.

Most of the speakers I heard were actually rather thoughtful, 
notwithstanding the few nutty fanatics.  Quite a number of them were 
prominent members of the community.  I don't know what collective wisdom 
the city council might have derived, putting it all together, but it was 
an interesting exercise in democracy.  At least no one can complain that 
there was no public forum in the decision-making process.

One of the ideas that came to me while the anti-Mormon faction was 
pounding the pulpit was that we ought to revive the spirit of Porter 
Rockwell.  These ugly public bullies would not be so bold if Rockwell 
was around.

I suggested eariler in a letter to the Deseret News that the "Whistling 
and Whittling Brigade" might also be a good notion to resurrect.  When 
the Nauvoo Charter was revoked by Illinois in 1845, following the murder 
of Joseph Smith, Nauvoo lost the legal right to enforce laws, and became 
a target for troublemakers.  Nauvoo Church leaders organized a gang of 
young men to identify such parties as they entered the town.  The boys 
would press around these ill-intentioned characters, saying nothing to 
them, but busily whistling and whittling, with an obvious display of a 
lot of sharp knives.  Apparently most of the bad men were immediately 
discouraged and quickly left the town.

Perhaps such a scheme could serve to preserve the peace at Temple Square 
while the arguments continue.

---
Mij Ebaboc

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RE: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal

[Jim Cobabe]

Day of Heckling on Plaza Thrusts Issues to Forefront
The scene earlier today on the Main Street plaza included street 
preachers carrying placards and screaming their beliefs, sometimes 
through bullhorns.   

December 17, 2002

KSL News Specialist Carole Mikita reporting

Salt Lake City Council chambers are expected to be packed tonight for 
the public hearing on the Main Street plaza controversy.

The issue of free speech came to a boiling point on the Main Street 
Plaza today... when protestors heckled wedding parties. 

News Specialist Carole Mikita has that story as well as reaction from 
Mayor Anderson. 

Deanie and Bruce... today's encounter on the plaza caused the mayor to 
rethink his own time, place and manner restrictions which he proposed as 
a solution to this problem... it now appears that even he believes some 
have pushed the idea of free speech too far. 

They call themselves Bible believers... with giant placards in hand and 
shouting sometimes through bullhornsthey drew plenty of attention 
from passersby and wedding parties. 

"IF YOU TRY TO DO ANYTHING TO INFRINGE ON A PERSON'S FIRST AMENDMENT 
RIGHTS... AND MY ATTORNEYS DON'T ONLY LIKE TO GO AFTER THE POLICE 
DEPARTMENT, THEY LIKE TO GO AFTER YOUR PENSIONS..." 

A Salt Lake City police officer, tried to get them to move just 20 feet 
down the walkway, so that brides and grooms could take pictures with the 
temple behind them. They refused to leave... 

"COMMON DECENCY, YOU DON'T HAVE IT... I'M NOT MOVIN... THAT'S RIGHT... 
I'M NOT MOVIN..." 

Anne Burt/ Mother of the Bride"I'M NOT ANGRY, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO GO 
WITH THE FLOW... BUT IT'S TOO BAD, IT'S TOO BAD... I'M SURE THEY ALL 
HAVE DAUGHTERS AND SOMEDAY WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THEIR PICTURES TAKEN, TOO 
BUT, YOU KNOW, LIFE GOES ON..." 

"AND SAINTS AND SANTS AND ANGELS SING..." 

Then a Latter-day Saint seminary choir in the downtown area to perform, 
added their voices to counter the screams of the street preachers... 

Tonight Mayor Anderson said he received a letter from the ACLU saying 
protestors must be allowed along the full length of the easement... he 
saw what happened this morning and changed his mind about time, place 
and manner restrictions. 

Rocky Anderson/ Salt Lake City Mayor "THERE WERE SOME VERY OBNOXIOUS, 
LOUD PEOPLE YELLING OBSCENITIES APPARENTLY... DISRUPTING A WEDDING 
PARTY... THAT IS SO COUNTER TO ANYTHING THAT ANYBODY INTENDED ON THIS 
PLAZA AND IF IT TAKES THAT TO MAKE THESE TIME, PLACE AND MANNER 
RESTRICTIONS WORK... THEN WE OUGHT TO JUST TAKE THE WHOLE PROPOSAL OFF 
THE TABLE AND LOOK AT SOMETHING ELSE..." 

The mayor is now supporting the proposal that he made yesterday with the 
Alliance for Unity. 

 

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Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal

[Marc A. Schindler]

Many thanks for the first-hand account. The story of what happened on the
easement, as reported on KSL is making the rounds of the Internet. Odd (well,
maybe not) that it takes idiots like Kurt Van Gordon to "p*** in their own
manger," as my uncle used to say . KVG was the instigator behind most of the
demonstrations, and who loves to try to sue anyone who 'defames' him [I only write
this without trepidation because I am safely in Canada. Not that he couldn't hire
a lawyer up here, but he'd have to find Canada first, as the old joke goes].
Anyway, he's well-known to many LDS apologists and is one of the more obnoxious
breeds of anti-Mormons. Even the Tanners won't have anything to do with him.

Jim Cobabe wrote:

> The gathering at the city council meeting last night was a zoo.  I got
> there about 6:00.  The public comment session was supposed to begin at
> 7:00, but the crowd had already filled up two overflow rooms and was
> winding down the corridors, and there were already many hundreds of
> people waiting.
>
> A small group with a vocal presence was the most disruptive.  These were
> "Jesus" people, come to threaten the Mormons with hellfire and
> damnation.  Several of these gained the microphone during the open
> period.  They asserted that Jesus commands their belligerence and
> rudeness.  One of them asserted that the Pledge to the flag which began
> the session should have been directed to Mormon dictatorship.
>
> Most of the speakers I heard were actually rather thoughtful,
> notwithstanding the few nutty fanatics.  Quite a number of them were
> prominent members of the community.  I don't know what collective wisdom
> the city council might have derived, putting it all together, but it was
> an interesting exercise in democracy.  At least no one can complain that
> there was no public forum in the decision-making process.
>
> One of the ideas that came to me while the anti-Mormon faction was
> pounding the pulpit was that we ought to revive the spirit of Porter
> Rockwell.  These ugly public bullies would not be so bold if Rockwell
> was around.
>
> I suggested eariler in a letter to the Deseret News that the "Whistling
> and Whittling Brigade" might also be a good notion to resurrect.  When
> the Nauvoo Charter was revoked by Illinois in 1845, following the murder
> of Joseph Smith, Nauvoo lost the legal right to enforce laws, and became
> a target for troublemakers.  Nauvoo Church leaders organized a gang of
> young men to identify such parties as they entered the town.  The boys
> would press around these ill-intentioned characters, saying nothing to
> them, but busily whistling and whittling, with an obvious display of a
> lot of sharp knives.  Apparently most of the bad men were immediately
> discouraged and quickly left the town.
>
> Perhaps such a scheme could serve to preserve the peace at Temple Square
> while the arguments continue.
>
> ---
> Mij Ebaboc
>
> //
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> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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[ZION] LOTR

[John W. Redelfs]

Is it true that Howard Shore, the composer of the music for The Lord of the 
Rings, is a Canadian?  Regardless, my hat is off to him.  The music is one 
of the best things about the movie.  Of course, that is just my humble 
opinion. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] No biological basis for race

[Marc A. Schindler]

After all, it doesn't say the elect (like, say, a tall, young good-looking bishop) 
*will* be deceived, it only says they *could* be.

Mark Gregson wrote:

>
> > Hey, wait, that's my part!   You'se guys can't be stealing my part ...
> >
> >
> > Till  who even got a new costume for the next show
>
> In the spirit of Christmas, Till, I forgive you for tempting me to the utmost with 
>your provocative statements.  That's a most humble forgiveness, too.
>
> =  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =
>
>
> --
> ___
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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see 
than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; 
its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s
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Re: [ZION] New guy

[Marc A. Schindler]

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> Stacy Smith favored us with:
> >Well, I'd like to know just how many such lists there are.  Judging from
> >other lists on other subjects, there must be hundreds out there.
>
> For a while I was the Open Directory Project editor in charge of listing
> the LDS email discussion lists.  There are 274 listed at the moment, but
> few that generate enough traffic to actually sustain a
> conversation.  Probably the most active of all LDS lists is Mormon-L.  But
> it is not exactly a faith promoting experience.  A couple of years ago I
> promised I would never again participate there.  I made the decision after
> a list member referred to Boyd KKK Packer.  That didn't disgust me so much
> as the fact that no one on the list seemed outraged by it but myself.
>

Not "no one", actually. ;-)

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see 
than weigh.” – Lord
Chesterfield

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its contents do not
necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor those of any organization with 
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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Marc A. Schindler]

Yeah, and I think I made it even worse when I was trying to figure out how I got
the two dates mixed up, and the only thing I was thinking of that could have made
a neural short like that was de Tocqueville, but later I recalled that he made his
famous tour *after* the Revolution. So, I guess it was just a simple slip. My
apologies for any misunderstanding.

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> George Cobabe favored us with:
> >Hate to be picky Marc, but the French Revolution is generally thought to
> >have occurred between 1789 and 1799, sometime after the American Revolution.
> >You might recall the keys dates of 1776 and 1782 for America.  I think it
> >was the French following the American example.
>
> He's got you there, Marc.  It is unusual for you to make such a gaffe.  You
> must be having a bad day.  --JWR
>

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Marc A. Schindler]

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
> > > Obviously yes because we know from the Doctrine and Covenants that the
> > > Founding Fathers of the United States were inspired men raised up by God to
> > > rebel against Britain.
> >
> >It actually doesn't say this. See below.
>
> But it does say that the US Founders were raised up by God to write the
> Constitution.

Indeed.

> And it is hard to imagine how that Constitution could have
> been written if we had remain colonies.

This is also true, but it's a logical extension of the first, not something that's
said explicitly to be inspired. I know it's a nit, but I think the Lord uses
historical events, he doesn't "cause" them, else we wouldn't have free will*. His
plan is so elegant that His kingdom will come regardless of what choices humanity
makes. I don't profess to understand how that's possible, although some of my
studies of chaotic systems in mathematics show that in principle what appears to be
random and chaotic can have a pre-determined result, although not a result that can
be figured out by our current mathematics (cellular automata comes close, but the
problem is always knowing the initial conditions, and if the Big Bang was actually
how our universe was created, those initial conditions are forever lost if we go
back extrapolating in time, lost in the great singularity of the first 10^-43
seconds.

*I'll give you an example. I know what I'm going to write may offend some, and I
apologize for that in advance; it's not meant to be offensive. However, I do
remember one GA (and not ETB; in fact I believe it was DOM) saying, referring to
the famous vision of Wilford Woodruff (where he was directed to do the temple work
for the founding fathers), that all the founding fathers were men who believed in
Christ's divinity and atonement. But in secular history it didn't quite work out
that way. Thomas Jefferson was a deist; these days he would probably be a
Unitarian, and Benjamin Franklin was not an observing Christian, either, from what
I remember. I'm not saying he was an atheist, but iirc, his own thinking tended
towards deism as well (the difference between deism and theism is that both believe
there's a "higher power" but the deist doesn't believe it's a personal entity
whereas theism does). Thomas Jefferson was very much a Renaissance man, and was
accomplished in many areas. One of the things he did was kind of a precursor to the
modern, so-called "Jesus Seminar," sponsored by the Westar Institute. That is,
Jefferson rewrote the New Testament so it only included what he felt were the
original sayings of Jesus, and that excluded any references to miracles, let alone
the atonement and resurrection.  Again, no offence is meant, but God uses the
materials at hand, so to speak, he doesn't override people's free will.

> So, while "it actually doesn't say
> this," it is implied very strongly.  --JWR

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor
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Re: [ZION] Tobacco interests lose a big one in Canada; LDS involvement

[Marc A. Schindler]

We don't have the same tradition of class action suits here like you do in the US.
Tort reform is a hot topic in the US these days, too, as I recall -- one of the
reasons was some particular damages that were awarded by juries in Mississippi
(the Loewen case comes to mind). Perhaps Tom can comment further if he has the
time and inclination.

What's embarrassing is that Ken Kyle was in my stake when we lived in Ottawa, and
he says he remembers us, but I can't remember him -- I know the name, but can't
remember the face. Anyway, I thought listmembers might be proud that some Saints
are having influence for the good in high places.

Chet wrote:

> Marc A. Schindler wrote a lotta stuff I'm not even gonna try to keep up
> with.  Mainly, it said that tobacco companies are getting beat on in
> Canada.
>
> I hope so.  I really hope so.  Because in this country, the tobacco
> companies are being "beaten on" by being sued.  They raise their prices,
> so that everyone wins:  the government gets more money, the tobacco
> companies get more money, the smokers are gonna smoke no matter what,
> and a good portion of the revenue from the lawsuits go NOT to stop
> smoking -- but to subsidize tobacco farmers.
>
> Please tell me Canada's not going to go the same route.
>
> *jeep!
>   --Chet
> "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you
> are doing the impossible."
>
> //
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Geoff FOWLER]

"Nici o problema" - as the Romanians are fond of saying.
 
Gepff


>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/18/02 01:53PM >>>
Yeah, and I think I made it even worse when I was trying to figure out
how I got
the two dates mixed up, and the only thing I was thinking of that could
have made
a neural short like that was de Tocqueville, but later I recalled that
he made his
famous tour *after* the Revolution. So, I guess it was just a simple
slip. My
apologies for any misunderstanding.

--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq

[Marc A. Schindler]

Are you saying that the following doesn't say the US saw it first?

"The U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and
distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and
other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for
proliferation-sensitive information, State Department deputy spokesman Philip
Reeker said at the daily media briefing in Washington December 10.

" Reeker said once such information has been deleted, a working document will be
made available to other members of the council as soon as possible."

And again, in the Q&A session:

"Question: There have been some grumblings on the sideline about Washington
taking the first set of documents and whisking them down here to copy them off.
Have  you received any messages like that from Permanent 5 members or other
Security Council members?

" Mr. Reeker: No. And, in fact, all Permanent 5 members have their copies, as I
think  we talked about yesterday. As I mentioned, based on the Council president's
decision -- which was an appropriate one and consistent with the resolution -- we
assisted in ensuring the safeguards against release, transmission of
proliferation-sensitive  information, making sure that that was not jeopardized.

" So we did the copying of this. We got the copies to all of those members with
that  expertise and all together we will be assessing the full document to see
about  proliferation-sensitive information so that then we can make available to
other members of the Council a working document as soon as possible."

Now tell me: how is it possible to do copying for others when you don't have the
document yourself to begin with?

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Marc Schindler:
>
> This just isn't true, I'm afraid. They were *delivered* to the
> Security Council, but the US still managed to get first crack
> at them. An excerpt from the US State Dept. briefing:  ...
>
> ___
>
> This just is true, I'm afraid.  And your excerpt begins by
> saying just what I said.
>
> That you wish to ascribe special motives to the person
> running the copy center is your prerogative.  That you feel
> the spokesman was not appropriate because the US
> didn't do it the way you think it would have been done in
> Canada is also your prerogative.
>

That was not my point at all. Please reread it. It was referring to an earlier
thread where some people on this list assumed that Francie Ducros was a
"politician" because they were used to seeing presidential and cabinet
spokespeople making statements, which doesn't happen in parliamentary systems.

>
> Enjoy your prerogative.
>

It's not my prerogative you're criticizing, it's a straw man you're criticizing.
You are not criticizing what I wrote, but how you *read* it.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Geoff FOWLER]

>>> After intense thought, Marc favored us with:
>This is also true, but it's a logical extension of the first, not 
>something that's said explicitly to be inspired. I know it's a nit, 
>but I think the Lord uses historical events, he doesn't "cause" 
>them, else we wouldn't have free will*. His plan is so elegant 
>that His kingdom will come regardless of what choices humanity
>makes. 
 
But you are forgetting one truth: God is Omnipotent - he knows all. He
knew and planned for Joseph Smith to be born in the United States near
the hill Cumorah where the golden plates were buried and sealed up to
come forth by His power. Additionally, He knew that Joseph would
eventually give in to Martin's harangues and give up the 116 pages of
the Book of Lehi. Yet, God provided a way for his work to be
accomplished, DESPITE the choices made by men. While He might not
directly "cause" historical events, per se, He can and will certainly
intervene (remember Alma the Younger) if necessary. Knowing all, He can
plan around the mistakes of men.

As far as Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin go (as well as perhaps
others of the Founding Fathers), their drift toward deism and away from
institutionalized Christianity may have been as much due to the corrupt
sects of the day as any other. Perhaps history knows them as such
because they sought to distance themselves from false Christianity. I
guess we will find out when we leave this earthly sphere and see them on
the other side. Perhaps having been finally taught the fulness of truth
in the spirit world, they fully embraced it (and at least some of them
did; else why appear to Wilford Woodruff and request that their work be
done for them?).
 
Your brother,
Geoff

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Geoff FOWLER]

Gepff!?
 
I have no idea who that is - apparently he speaks Romanian too.
Strange...
 
Geoff


>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/18/02 02:16PM >>>
"Nici o problema" - as the Romanians are fond of saying.

Gepff


>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/18/02 01:53PM >>>
Yeah, and I think I made it even worse when I was trying to figure out
how I got
the two dates mixed up, and the only thing I was thinking of that
could
have made
a neural short like that was de Tocqueville, but later I recalled that
he made his
famous tour *after* the Revolution. So, I guess it was just a simple
slip. My
apologies for any misunderstanding.

--
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [ZION] LOTR

[Marc A. Schindler]

I don't know. Tom, Mark?

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> Is it true that Howard Shore, the composer of the music for The Lord of the
> Rings, is a Canadian?  Regardless, my hat is off to him.  The music is one
> of the best things about the movie.  Of course, that is just my humble
> opinion. --JWR
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

//
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[George Cobabe]

Rick - you are not clear in your question.  Could a rational man be
otherwise than anti-Canadian or anti-American.
You have a bit to lose if you are anti-American, but no one cares about the
other. :-)

George

My son, Spencer, who was born in Calgary is asking me about this now.

- Original Message -
From: "Rick Mathis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?


> At 11:17 PM 12/17/2002 -0900, the BLT wrote:
> >It is true that Marc, like many Canadians, is a tad anti-American.  But
> >believe me, there are a few here on the list that are pretty
anti-Canadian
> >too.
>
> But how could any rational man, having seen the brilliant documentary
> "Canadian Bacon" be otherwise?
>
> Rick Mathis
>
>

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>
>
>

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[George Cobabe]

There was no misunderstanding - most everyone knew that you had erred.  I
was just impolite enough to point it out.

Therefore it is I that must beg forgiveness for my rudeness in pointing out
error.

I will try to be more polite in the future, when you make other mistakes
regarding US history, intentions, and policy. :-)

George


George
- Original Message -
From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21


Yeah, and I think I made it even worse when I was trying to figure out how I
got
the two dates mixed up, and the only thing I was thinking of that could have
made
a neural short like that was de Tocqueville, but later I recalled that he
made his
famous tour *after* the Revolution. So, I guess it was just a simple slip.
My
apologies for any misunderstanding.

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> George Cobabe favored us with:
> >Hate to be picky Marc, but the French Revolution is generally thought to
> >have occurred between 1789 and 1799, sometime after the American
Revolution.
> >You might recall the keys dates of 1776 and 1782 for America.  I think it
> >was the French following the American example.
>
> He's got you there, Marc.  It is unusual for you to make such a gaffe.
You
> must be having a bad day.  --JWR
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more
people
see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.


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[ZION] Microsoft interview questions

[Stephen Beecroft]

The funnest thing about interviewing at Microsoft are the famous (or 
infamous) "interview questions", of which you're likely to get at least 
one per interview. A classic example is:

You have three closed barrels in front of you, one filled with black 
marbles, one filled with white marbles, and one filled with a mix of 
black and white marbles. You also have three labels, one to a barrel, 
reading "Black", "White", and "Mixed". You are told that each barrel has 
the wrong sign on it. You are allowed to draw one marble from a barrel. 
What is the least number of marbles you can draw to put the signs 
aright, and from which barrel(s) do you draw it/them? *(Answer below)

Here's one I just got this afternoon that I hadn't heard before, though 
I'm pretty sure it's an old question:

You wish to market a climbing chain consisting of some lengths of chain 
that can be joined together by carob-beaners (removeable links). Regular 
chain links are dirt-cheap; carob-beaners are very expensive. You want 
to market a chain set that can be used to create a chain of any length 
between one and twenty-one links, without any "left-over" links. (That 
is, you must have exactly 21 links in your kit, including 
carob-beaners.) What is the least number of carob-beaners you must 
include in the kit, and what are the lengths of chain you must also 
include? **(Answer below)

Stephen

(SPOILER: Answers below)






* Draw one marble from the barrel labeled "Mixed", since you know it's 
either the black or the white barrel (it isn't mixed -- the labels are 
all wrong). Put the appropriate label on that barrel, move the remaining 
"Black" or "White" label onto the now-unsigned barrel, and put the 
"Mixed" label on the remaining barrel.

** Short answer: Three carob-beaners, four lengths of chain as follows: 
7 links, 7 links, 3 links, 1 link. Longer answer: You can quickly show 
that two carob-beaners is insufficient for making the correct 
combinations, since you must then have a three-link chain (your 
carob-beaners only combine for two links), and then a six-link chain 
(your three-link chain and carob-beaners only combine for five links). 
Two carob-beaners will only allow you to join a maximum of three lengths 
of chain; so your third length has to be 21 - 6 - 3 - 1 - 1, or ten 
links long. However, you have no way to make a nine-link chain: 6 + 1 + 
1 = 8, and 6 + 1 + 3 = 10 (you can't directly join the six-link and 
three-link chains without a carob-beaner). So (Point #1) you will 
require at least three carob-beaners. Now, if you have three 
carob-beaners, that means you can have up to four lengths of chain. But 
how do you go from a 20-link chain to a 21-link chain? You have to add 
on a single link. That last link is either one of your carob-beaners (in 
which case you can only have three lengths of chain, not four), or else 
you have to have a one-link length of chain. You can quickly show that 
three carob-beaners and three lengths of chain won't work, so (Point #2) 
one of your four chain lengths must be a single link. Once you see these 
two points, you can play with the combinations and figure out the chain 
lengths that will allow you to do it with three carob-beaners. If anyone 
has insight how to arrive at an answer faster, please do tell.

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Marc A. Schindler]

Be careful when you use Latinate terms: they are often more restrictive than LDS
doctrines. This is the problem with the term omnipotence. It's understood in a
mechanical way (that's one reason Latin is not a good language for religion; it
was better for armies and bureaucrats) ;-)

But that raises the philosophical dilemma of free will. We LDS do *not* believe
God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans used this term -- we believe he's
subject to "natural law," and we believe that even spirit is a type of matter.
That means we don't believe in the supernatural, but, to coin a word, the
metanatural. There's a world of difference.

Now with omniscience, which may be the term you meant to use, it's not quite as
bad, but we also have to understand that the telestial world in which we live has
only 1 dimension to time. You can't read apocalyptic texts like Daniel, parts of
Isaiah and Revelation, not to mention Ezekiel and Matthew 24, without realizing
that there might be more than one approach to time. So "omniscience" is lacking in
meaning for Latter-day Saints. Just as I said, speculating of course, and in terms
of my own background, mathematicians fwiw recognize that there are potentially
stable solutions to chaotic, nonlinear equations (think of the weather, or cream
swirling in a cup of cocoa). If you track some of these functions in a particular
cross-section (using either time sampling or some other factor) you see a stable
pattern, which is known as an attractor (actually a "strange attractor" for
chaotic functions, not to be confused with an astronomical term of the same
name).  The implication of this is that the end of a process which is chaotic in
our "time as an arrow" universe, when plotted in a dimensional space that is a
superset of 1D time, can be an attractor.

But I know I'm getting perhaps needlessly technical. The point is that
"omniscience" has certain connotations which are cultural and which may not
(indeed, I believe they do not) fully describe *how* God knows and what it really
means to say that He knows "all things" without falling back on "magical" or
"supernatural" solutions which is a God of the gaps approach, trying to fit God
into a box we can understand.

Geoff FOWLER wrote:

> >>> After intense thought, Marc favored us with:
> >This is also true, but it's a logical extension of the first, not
> >something that's said explicitly to be inspired. I know it's a nit,
> >but I think the Lord uses historical events, he doesn't "cause"
> >them, else we wouldn't have free will*. His plan is so elegant
> >that His kingdom will come regardless of what choices humanity
> >makes.
>
> But you are forgetting one truth: God is Omnipotent - he knows all. He
> knew and planned for Joseph Smith to be born in the United States near
> the hill Cumorah where the golden plates were buried and sealed up to
> come forth by His power. Additionally, He knew that Joseph would
> eventually give in to Martin's harangues and give up the 116 pages of
> the Book of Lehi. Yet, God provided a way for his work to be
> accomplished, DESPITE the choices made by men. While He might not
> directly "cause" historical events, per se, He can and will certainly
> intervene (remember Alma the Younger) if necessary. Knowing all, He can
> plan around the mistakes of men.
>
> As far as Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin go (as well as perhaps
> others of the Founding Fathers), their drift toward deism and away from
> institutionalized Christianity may have been as much due to the corrupt
> sects of the day as any other. Perhaps history knows them as such
> because they sought to distance themselves from false Christianity. I
> guess we will find out when we leave this earthly sphere and see them on
> the other side. Perhaps having been finally taught the fulness of truth
> in the spirit world, they fully embraced it (and at least some of them
> did; else why appear to Wilford Woodruff and request that their work be
> done for them?).
>

Fair enough, and nothing I wrote should be taken to contradict your last
paragraph. What I am saying is that it can be dangerous to try to understand
Divine means in human, secular terms. There are two extremes here, and we have to
steer the strait of Styx between them, so to speak. One extreme is biblical
literalism, such as conservative Protestants believe in, where they retroject
their modern cultural assumptions back into the scriptures (this is how
trinitarianism and anti-anthropomorphism arose, for instance). The other extreme
is the "new history" approach in liberal Mormonism, where people like Brent
Metcalfe and Tom Murphy try to equate what BM in particular calls "prophetic
truth" with "historical truth." This is also known (I think BKP said this) as
"tripping over their own professionalism." There is a middle ground where have to
admit we don't always know what scriptures mean. Handy for us we have a prophet
around, as only a prophet can "re-read" an earlier prophet's statements

Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Marc A. Schindler]

Believe me, I don't mind being called to task when I'm wrong. Now, I have to
admit, sometimes I don't always agree I'm wrong, but that's a course of a
different holler.

George Cobabe wrote:

> There was no misunderstanding - most everyone knew that you had erred.  I
> was just impolite enough to point it out.
>
> Therefore it is I that must beg forgiveness for my rudeness in pointing out
> error.
>
> I will try to be more polite in the future, when you make other mistakes
> regarding US history, intentions, and policy. :-)
>
> George

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions

[Marc A. Schindler]

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> The funnest thing about interviewing at Microsoft are the famous (or
> infamous) "interview questions", of which you're likely to get at least
> one per interview. A classic example is:
>
> You have three closed barrels in front of you, one filled with black
> marbles, one filled with white marbles, and one filled with a mix of
> black and white marbles. You also have three labels, one to a barrel,
> reading "Black", "White", and "Mixed". You are told that each barrel has
> the wrong sign on it. You are allowed to draw one marble from a barrel.
> What is the least number of marbles you can draw to put the signs
> aright, and from which barrel(s) do you draw it/them? *(Answer below)
>
> Here's one I just got this afternoon that I hadn't heard before, though
> I'm pretty sure it's an old question:
>
> You wish to market a climbing chain consisting of some lengths of chain
> that can be joined together by carob-beaners (removeable links). Regular

No wonder Microsoft's spellchecker is so lousy ;-) (carabiners, from a German word
for "carbine hook". IIRC, aren't Italy's alpine police known as carabinieri?)

 [as in "cheap spelling flame]

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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Geoff FOWLER]

>>> Marc intelligently replied:
>Be careful when you use Latinate terms: they are often 
>more restrictive than LDS doctrines. [...]
 
>But that raises the philosophical dilemma of free will. We LDS 
>do *not* believe God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans
>used this term -- we believe he's subject to "natural law," and
>we believe that even spirit is a type of matter. That means 
>we don't believe in the supernatural, but, to coin a word, the
>metanatural. There's a world of difference.
 
You are correct, Marc. Omnipotent means "unlimited power," while
omniscient is "unlimited knowledge." Thank you for correcting me. :)
 
On that subject, yes, I agree that God is subject to "natural law" -
but obviously we mortals do not have a full understanding of said law
(and will not until we become as He is, am I right?). I like the word
metanatural, BTW.

>Now with omniscience, which may be the term you meant to
>use, it's not quite as bad, but we also have to understand 
>that the telestial world in which we live has only 1 dimension 
>to time. You can't read apocalyptic texts like Daniel, parts of
>Isaiah and Revelation, not to mention Ezekiel and Matthew 24, 
>without realizing that there might be more than one approach 
>to time. [...]

I also agree that we do not understand *how* God's omniscience works.
However, any discussion of the attributes of God falls under what you
term as "trying to fit God into a box we can understand." Since we are
not like Him yet, and hence do not understand everything He does, we
have to use those terms and concepts that we do understand, while at the
same time recognizing that perhaps we will never truly understand any of
these attributes fully until we arrive on the other side of the veil.
Until then, we work by faith and our comprehension increases line by
line, precept by precept... as the Spirit presents this knowledge to
us.
 
Unfortunately for me, my understanding of mathematics is just as
limited. I know, I know, I need to repent. :)
 
Geoff

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[ZION] Subject to natural law

[Jim Cobabe]

I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is "subject 
to natural law" in the same sense that we are.  To put it thus 
incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause.

God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of 
His power--the laws are subordinate to Him.  They are becase He is.  He 
acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because 
He is "subject" to natural law, but because "natural" laws are _His_ 
laws.

He is the ultimate source--not a subject.

---
Mij Ebaboc

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[ZION] New WTC plans announced

[Marc A. Schindler]

New York has decided to go with a mixture of skyscrapers and memoria,
although the exact plan has yet to be chosen. The new towers will
surpass the Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur (currently the world's
tallest building[s]), although not, iiirc, one or two buildings proposed
for Shanghai and Hong Kong:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Northeast/12/18/wtc.rebuilding/index.html

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
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[ZION] Iraq

[Marc A. Schindler]

I can't say "I told you so" yet but Bush has announced today that
despite the omissions in the report on WMD delivered by Iraq to the UN
(and only today being given to the non-permanent members of the Security
Council, incidentally), war is not imminent.

I've been of the opinion since this issue arose that there won't be a
war in Iraq, that the situation is at least as much about domestic US
politics as it is with anything actually going on in Iraq and that we'd
see a gradual backing down once the mid-term elections were past. I
could be wrong -- I guess we'll see.

http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=51180&id=200212181727000163465

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[George Cobabe]

The real question is who created the law for this universe.  Are the laws
for this universe, and this God, different from those of other universes?

If God was the one who created the unique laws for this creation, then He
would surely be Omnipotent in every sense of the word - Latin or otherwise.

George

- Original Message -
From: "Geoff FOWLER" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21


> >>> Marc intelligently replied:
> >Be careful when you use Latinate terms: they are often
> >more restrictive than LDS doctrines. [...]
>
> >But that raises the philosophical dilemma of free will. We LDS
> >do *not* believe God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans
> >used this term -- we believe he's subject to "natural law," and
> >we believe that even spirit is a type of matter. That means
> >we don't believe in the supernatural, but, to coin a word, the
> >metanatural. There's a world of difference.
>
> You are correct, Marc. Omnipotent means "unlimited power," while
> omniscient is "unlimited knowledge." Thank you for correcting me. :)
>
> On that subject, yes, I agree that God is subject to "natural law" -
> but obviously we mortals do not have a full understanding of said law
> (and will not until we become as He is, am I right?). I like the word
> metanatural, BTW.
>
> >Now with omniscience, which may be the term you meant to
> >use, it's not quite as bad, but we also have to understand
> >that the telestial world in which we live has only 1 dimension
> >to time. You can't read apocalyptic texts like Daniel, parts of
> >Isaiah and Revelation, not to mention Ezekiel and Matthew 24,
> >without realizing that there might be more than one approach
> >to time. [...]
>
> I also agree that we do not understand *how* God's omniscience works.
> However, any discussion of the attributes of God falls under what you
> term as "trying to fit God into a box we can understand." Since we are
> not like Him yet, and hence do not understand everything He does, we
> have to use those terms and concepts that we do understand, while at the
> same time recognizing that perhaps we will never truly understand any of
> these attributes fully until we arrive on the other side of the veil.
> Until then, we work by faith and our comprehension increases line by
> line, precept by precept... as the Spirit presents this knowledge to
> us.
>
> Unfortunately for me, my understanding of mathematics is just as
> limited. I know, I know, I need to repent. :)
>
> Geoff
>
> --
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

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>

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RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Jim Cobabe]

Geoff FOWLER wrote:
---
As far as Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin go (as well as perhaps 
others of the Founding Fathers), their drift toward deism and away from 
institutionalized Christianity may have been as much due to the corrupt 
sects of the day as any other. Perhaps history knows them as such 
because they sought to distance themselves from false Christianity.
---

Only the most perverse of revisionists invented the notion that 
Jefferson and Franklin were anything but practicing and devoted 
Christians.  They would have been prime candidates to receive the 
assertions Jesus made to Joseph Smith about traditional 
Christianity--that their professors were all corrupt, and their creeds 
were an abomination.

That Joseph Smith believed and taught this does not qualify _him_ as a 
"deist".  In that context, to argue the same about the US founding 
fathers is specious and tendentious.

It is instructive that many of the revisionists who spin this "deist" 
misinformation, primarily about Jefferson, are openly and dogmatically 
promoting their own flavor of atheist or agnostic evangelism.  There is 
really no compelling documentation to support their arguments, and every 
evidence to suggest that Jefferson, at least, was a devoutly and 
fervently religious man in his own right.  

---
Mij Ebaboc

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RE: [ZION] LOTR

[Tom Matkin]

Marc makes an admission of rare ignorance of things Canadian:

> 
> I don't know. Tom, Mark?


Turns out that Howard Shore is a Canadian and that he cut his composing
teeth on those old David Cronenberg suspense movies like "The Fly" and
"Scanners".  I actually own a 1/2000 share of "Scanners" although I
don't think I've ever watched it and I'm sure it never came to my
attention until today that it had a musical score.  I just looked all
this up on Google.  Well except for the part about my tax shelter
investment in Canadian movie classics, "Scanners"  "Hog Wild" and
something else starring Elliott Gould and Tatum O'Neal that I forget and
no one else remembers either.  Sadly the residuals stopped rolling in a
long time ago. Long before the capital investment was recovered even, if
you can believe it. Anyway I guess this connection means that Howard and
I are practically like brothers, since we are both Canadians and have
such a deep interest in the cinematic arts. So I recant my prior
disinterest in the LOTR movies. Ya gotta love 'em fer the music, if
nothing else, eh? And is my memory on this right or have I forgotten
this too, wasn't the LOTR music really loud? Loud enough to blow the top
right off of your head maybe?  Ooops, that's the plot line for
"Scanners".  My mistake.


Tom

> 
> "John W. Redelfs" wrote:
> 
> > Is it true that Howard Shore, the composer of the music for The Lord
of
> the
> > Rings, is a Canadian?  Regardless, my hat is off to him.  The music
is
> one
> > of the best things about the movie.  Of course, that is just my
humble
> > opinion. --JWR
> >
> 
> --
> Marc A. Schindler
> Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
> 
> "Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more
> people
> see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield
> 
> Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
> author
> solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
> employer,
> nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
> 
>

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RE: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions

[Stephen Beecroft]

-Marc-
> No wonder Microsoft's spellchecker is so lousy ;-) (carabiners,
> from a German word for "carbine hook".

Ah. I had never seen/heard the term, and the guy (Russian) 
called/spelled them "carob-beaners". I wondered how that term had come 
about. What's a "carob bean", anyway?

But I had nothing to do with Microsoft's spell-checker. Otherwise, it 
wouldn't suggest "Bereft" every time I write my name.

> IIRC, aren't Italy's alpine police known as carabinieri?)

Yes, the special forces guys who carry machine guns. Also known as 
carob-beaners.

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Marc A. Schindler]

Jim Cobabe wrote:

> I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is "subject
> to natural law" in the same sense that we are.  To put it thus
> incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause.
>

Ah, there's a crucial difference there: "that we are." I would agree with your
modified statement, but then that's not quite what I wrote originally. We don't
know what it means to say that God is subject to "natural" law because we are only
beginning to understand the laws that govern our realm, let alone any realm that
transcends ours. But the statement itself, without the qualification, is from
Joseph Smith.

>
> God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of
> His power--the laws are subordinate to Him.  They are becase He is.  He
> acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because
> He is "subject" to natural law, but because "natural" laws are _His_
> laws.
>

Hmm, I'll have to think about that one. I'm not sure I'd agree with your statement
as it's written. I think he's subject to a natural law that is higher than the
ones we're subject to. But he's still subject to *some* kind of natural law. A
parallel is our unique claim that spirit is "refined matter." That means it's
matter, but it's not what Paul would call "corruptible", but rather
"incorruptible." What does that mean? We don't really know yet.

>
> He is the ultimate source--not a subject.
>

This is where you can fall into a word trap if you're not careful. St. Anselm is
best known for what's known in philosophy as the ontological argument for the
existence of God. But Anselm believed in creatio ex nihilo and that God was the
"prime mover". His argument was that for our world to have come into being, there
had to be a being behind its creation. But we don't believe in this -- we
certainly believe God created the world, I'm not disputing that, but we don't
believe God is the "ultimate cause" in the philosophical sense. We believe that
God was once as we are, which implies all kinds of things. Those implications,
which many early brethren speculated about, are exactly that: speculations. But
it's clear that we do not share the Roman church's philosophical foundations with
respect to the nature of God.


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Stephen Beecroft]

-Marc-
> We LDS do *not* believe God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans
> used this term -- we believe he's subject to "natural law,"

Perhaps you believe so. I don't. God's word defines "natural law". He is 
the master, not the subject. That is why he is called the Lawgiver.

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Marc A. Schindler]

Geoff FOWLER wrote:

>
>
> I also agree that we do not understand *how* God's omniscience works.
> However, any discussion of the attributes of God falls under what you
> term as "trying to fit God into a box we can understand." Since we are
> not like Him yet, and hence do not understand everything He does, we
> have to use those terms and concepts that we do understand, while at the
> same time recognizing that perhaps we will never truly understand any of
> these attributes fully until we arrive on the other side of the veil.
> Until then, we work by faith and our comprehension increases line by
> line, precept by precept... as the Spirit presents this knowledge to
> us.
>

Exactly, which is why I kept warning that I was a hammer looking for nails. That's
another way of saying my own speculation was a box, too, with its own boundaries.
None of us is [yet] "out of the box," so to speak.

>
> Unfortunately for me, my understanding of mathematics is just as
> limited. I know, I know, I need to repent. :)
>

Heavens, yes! That's as bad as falling asleep during "the Begatitudes" ;-)


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Marc A. Schindler]

Jim Cobabe wrote:

> It is instructive that many of the revisionists who spin this "deist"
> misinformation, primarily about Jefferson, are openly and dogmatically
> promoting their own flavor of atheist or agnostic evangelism.  There is
> really no compelling documentation to support their arguments, and every
> evidence to suggest that Jefferson, at least, was a devoutly and
> fervently religious man in his own right.
>
>

Is it really an issue with you? Are you sure you want to go down that road?


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Jim Cobabe]

Stephen Beecroft wrote:
---
God's word defines "natural law". He is the master, not the subject. 
That is why he is called the Lawgiver.
---

Yes, I thought that was a significant point to emphasize.

Perhaps this is just another one of those silly, figurative notions that 
unenlightened fundamentalists like me trip over so often.


"And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who 
enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your 
understandings;

"Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the 
immensity of space—

"The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, 
which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God 
who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in 
the midst of all things." (Doctrine and Covenants 88:12-13.)

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[John W. Redelfs]

Marc A. Schindler favored us with:

Thomas Jefferson was a deist; these days he would probably be a
Unitarian, and Benjamin Franklin was not an observing Christian, either, 
from what
I remember. I'm not saying he was an atheist, but iirc, his own thinking 
tended
towards deism as well (the difference between deism and theism is that 
both believe
there's a "higher power" but the deist doesn't believe it's a personal entity
whereas theism does).

This isn't quite right, Marc.  I used to be a Deist, and among Deists no 
such distinctions are made between a personal and impersonal God.  A Deist 
was one who believed only what all religions (of the day) held in common, 
ie. 1) a supreme being, 2) a system of punishments and rewards after death, 
etc.  Here is a passage from the current online Britannica that will set 
you straight:

---
Deists during the flowering of the doctrine, though their religious 
antagonists often attempted to force them into this difficult position. 
Historically, a distinction between theism and Deism has never had wide 
currency in European thought. As an example, when encyclopaedist Denis 
Diderot , in France, translated into French the works of Anthony Ashley 
Cooper, 3rd earl of Shaftesbury , one of the important English Deists, he 
often rendered “Deism” as théisme. The term is not in current usage as a 
metaphysical concept, and its significance is really limited to the 17th 
and 18th centuries.

[...]

In Lord Herbert's treatises five religious ideas were recognized as 
God-given and innate in the mind of man from the beginning of time: the 
belief in a supreme being, in the need for his worship , in the pursuit of 
a pious and virtuous life as the most desirable form of worship, in the 
need of repentance for sins, and in rewards and punishments in the next 
world. These fundamental religious beliefs, Herbert held, had been the 
possession of the first man, and they were basic to all the worthy positive 
institutionalized religions of later times. Thus, differences among sects 
and cults all over the world were usually benign, mere modifications of 
universally accepted truths; they were corruptions only when they led to 
barbarous practices such as the immolation of human victims and the 
slaughter of religious rivals.
---

So you see, Deists were left to themselves to discover the nature of God, 
whether he was personal or impersonal.  It is only accurate to say that 
they believed in a Supreme Being.

It is my understanding that most of our Founders were Deists.  Knowing as 
they did that the religions then extant were the irrational philosophies of 
men, they tried to strip away all the incrustations of sectarianism and 
return to the most fundamental basics common to all.  No wonder they joined 
the Church when they got a chance.  No wonder I did.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
"Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described
intellectuals" --Uncle Bob
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Stephen Beecroft]

-Stephen-
> God's word defines "natural law". He is the master, not the
> subject. That is why he is called the Lawgiver.

-Jim-
> Yes, I thought that was a significant point to emphasize.

Interesting that we independently arrived at a similar conclusion, even 
using similar wording. Almost like we were both listening to the same 
doctrine...

> Perhaps this is just another one of those silly, figurative
> notions that unenlightened fundamentalists like me trip over
> so often.

Probably so. I would weep for your pitiful, ignorant state, but you're 
above my visual range.

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] New guy

[John W. Redelfs]

Marc A. Schindler favored us with:

> Stacy Smith favored us with:
> >Well, I'd like to know just how many such lists there are.  Judging from
> >other lists on other subjects, there must be hundreds out there.
>
> For a while I was the Open Directory Project editor in charge of listing
> the LDS email discussion lists.  There are 274 listed at the moment, but
> few that generate enough traffic to actually sustain a
> conversation.  Probably the most active of all LDS lists is Mormon-L.  But
> it is not exactly a faith promoting experience.  A couple of years ago I
> promised I would never again participate there.  I made the decision after
> a list member referred to Boyd KKK Packer.  That didn't disgust me so much
> as the fact that no one on the list seemed outraged by it but myself.
>

Not "no one", actually. ;-)


It would have been nice if you had joined me in my protest, Marc.  I don't 
remember hearing a peep from you.  There is a bishop in my stake who is a 
longtime Mormon-L-er, and he didn't say anything either.  Bob Westover 
didn't say anything either.  I wasn't so disgusted with Richard Russell's 
blasphemy.  I expected as much from him.  But the lack of protest persuaded 
me that I had no place on the list.  I was truly offended by the lack of 
protest. You know what would have happened if someone had said something 
negative about D. Michael Quinn.

Aw... nevermind.  It is all ancient history.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday
School and seminary classes every fourth year. This
four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by
Church members in their personal and family study. We
need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get
a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by
any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988)
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[John W. Redelfs]

Stephen Beecroft favored us with:

-Marc-
> We LDS do *not* believe God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans
> used this term -- we believe he's subject to "natural law,"

Perhaps you believe so. I don't. God's word defines "natural law". He is
the master, not the subject. That is why he is called the Lawgiver.


This is not Mormon doctrine according to my understanding.  God was once a 
mortal man, and became God by living the natural laws that never had a 
beginning and will never have an end.  He is the Law Giver because he gives 
laws to man in addition to these uncreated laws.  The point is, God is 
bound by natural law just as much as we.  That is LDS Doctrine as I 
understand it.  The other doctrine, that he created all the natural laws, 
is a Protestant doctrine.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.  But we
can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is
what annoys me. --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[John W. Redelfs]

Jim Cobabe favored us with:

I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is "subject
to natural law" in the same sense that we are.  To put it thus
incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause.

God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of
His power--the laws are subordinate to Him.  They are becase He is.  He
acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because
He is "subject" to natural law, but because "natural" laws are _His_
laws.


It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly 
Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him.  They are 
uncreate.  And it was by obedience to these laws that he because 
God.  Remember, he was once a mortal man.  The idea that he made all the 
laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant 
idea.  It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is 
impossible even for God.


John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***
"...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest" --Joseph
Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248
***
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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[ZION]

[George Cobabe]

I am getting  a bit off base here as we are having a discussion in two
dimensions.  Comments on Fair and on Zion both seem to be on topic. This is
a repeat of what I said on the other list

I approach the problem differently than do some of you, in that I look at
the descriptions given of God, accept them, try to understand them, and then
go from there.  I accept that all the Omni's mean what they say - all
knowing, all powerful, all loving, all everything.

In addition I see that many people get hung up on the idea that God is
subject to laws that have been given Him either by His Father, or by the
natural state of things.  It seems to me that we need to look at the
relationship with God as dealing with the universe of His creations *only*.
All other universe's with other Gods do not have anything directly to do
with us. The "natural" laws could be different in those worlds.  So we can
truly say that there is only one God, there was a unique creation, there is
for us a prime mover, etc, etc.  I understand and accept the notion that
there is no pure prime mover as our God went through the same process we do,
however it only concerns us to deal with this universe and these laws.
IMNSHO

Now if God is all knowing,  and sec 93 about the past, present, and future
is correct, then God has a unique, from us, perspective on the world.  He
can know ALL! and according to my understanding would not be God if he did
not.  I put no limitations on God, other than He does himself (which he
does).

It is tricky to see how this works with our full agency.  Our real agency
was exercised in the pre-existence.  That is when we understood all and made
the fateful decision.  We no longer have full and complete agency, in that
we do not now have a full knowledge of all that is required to have agency.
When we make a decision, either now or in the pre-existence we give up some
of the freedom we had to do otherwise.  So it is on this earth.  We have
limited agency, but we had perfect agency when we made the choice to come
here.  Because God foreordains, based on complete fore knowledge, does not
mean He forechooses. He arranges the world so that each of us have an
opportunity to maximize our potential, according to His perfect
understanding of who and what we are.  When we act according to our
foreordination we then satisfy His expectations and His complete knowledge
and gain the reward we have been promised.

This is the only way that the plan could work.  If it were left up to the
random choices of men, without God knowing what we would do, then there
would be no justice in the plan, as our results would depend on the actions,
some unexpected, of others.  That would not be just or merciful.

I reject the idea of God having limitation of any sort.  This is conforming
to the definition of what God is.  He obeys His laws because it is His will
to do so.

As always if I am wrong, I am willing, and anxious, to repent real fast.
However, if you take a bit of time and ponder it I believe that you will
come to the same conclusion I have come to.

Bless you all,

George

George Cobabe, CLU, ChFC
Ogden, Utah
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[George Cobabe]

Give me some time John and I think I can demonstrate that this is not
necessarily so.

George

- Original Message -
From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law


> Jim Cobabe favored us with:
> >I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is "subject
> >to natural law" in the same sense that we are.  To put it thus
> >incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause.
> >
> >God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of
> >His power--the laws are subordinate to Him.  They are becase He is.  He
> >acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because
> >He is "subject" to natural law, but because "natural" laws are _His_
> >laws.
>
> It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly
> Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him.  They are
> uncreate.  And it was by obedience to these laws that he because
> God.  Remember, he was once a mortal man.  The idea that he made all the
> laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant
> idea.  It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is
> impossible even for God.
>
>
> John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
> "...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest" --Joseph
> Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248
> ***
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
>

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>
>
>

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[ZION] World's Tallest Buildings

[John W. Redelfs]

I think it is hubris to imagine we should build towers still taller than 
the WTC.  Sure they can build them, but the experience with the WTC proves 
that someone else can knock them down.  What is the point?  Why make 
buildings a tempting target unnecessarily?  I should think that the 
builders of the WTC would have learned their lesson.  Super tall building 
are not a good idea.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday
School and seminary classes every fourth year. This
four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by
Church members in their personal and family study. We
need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get
a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by
any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988)
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Marc A. Schindler]

I think we just need to be careful how we're using the terms. If I may be a bit
presumptuous, there is a sense in which I would agree with you, if you're using
the term the way Kent P. Jackson does: [studies in Scripture, vol. 7:1]

The Creation
There is a tendency for people in our generation to discount the "special
creation" account of the origin of our heaven and earth as related in the Bible.
The modern trend is to accept a "naturalistic" or "mechanistic" view of the origin
of our solar system, including our earth and all things upon it. fn Such a view
proposes that these things came into existence by chance—by the strict operation
of "natural law" rather than by God's purposes being fulfilled as a result of his
wisdom and power. This mechanistic view looks upon natural law as eternal or
self-existent and as determining absolutely what happens to physical matter over a
given time. There is no allowance for a divine or supernatural power of any kind
over physical matter. fn Such a view leaves no room for a God who has all
knowledge and who thinks and plans (no divine purpose in the universe); fn for a
sovereign God who is all powerful fn and who is the author of natural law (a God
who has control or power directly over physical matter); fn or for miracles or
divine intervention (God cannot change or revoke natural law). fn This
"mechanistic" view also eliminates the spiritual realm in the universe wherein
spirit matter (with "intelligence") can influence or control physical or other
spirit matter. This assumes that the spirit matter does not exist; fn people,
animals, and plants do not have spirits; fn there is no such thing as a God with a
spirit; fn and there is no influence whatsoever from God to the spirits of people
fn or to anything else in the universe. fn Obviously this view also eliminates
revelation, so there can be no such thing as commandments from God. Such a view
relegates man (and other "living" creatures) to a position of being mere physical
machines with no agency or freedom to act by themselves. fn They can only be acted
upon, since all actions or events are determined completely by preceding physical
events and subsequent operation of natural law.

But that's not the way I was using the term, and I disagree with his choice of
several words, including "supernatural." In any case, I am using it the way Joseph
Fielding Smith did, e.g., in Man: His Origin and Destiny (484):

A miracle is not, as many believe, the setting aside or overruling natural laws.
Every miracle performed in Biblical days or now, is done on natural principles and
in obedience to natural law. The healing of the sick, the raising of the dead,
giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it may be that is done by the power of God,
is in accordance with natural law. Because we do not understand how it is done,
does not argue for the impossibility of it. Our Father in heaven knows many laws
that are hidden from us.

And the way James E. Talmage did in Jesus the Christ (81):

That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in
violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof;
and, the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship,
and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the 'Son of the
Highest.'

The problem arises out of the word "natural," and is a limitation of our language.
By natural are we referring to the corruptible telestial world, or are we
referring simply to the fact that there are higher laws which are "natural" but
which operate in *their* realms, and which we by their and our very nature cannot
comprehend? I'm using the term in its latter connotation.

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Marc-
> > We LDS do *not* believe God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans
> > used this term -- we believe he's subject to "natural law,"
>
> Perhaps you believe so. I don't. God's word defines "natural law". He is
> the master, not the subject. That is why he is called the Lawgiver.
>
> Stephen
>
> //
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>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] LOTR

[Marc A. Schindler]

Ah, well, that's the connection, then, since even I knew that Cronenberg is
Canadian (I do really lousy on the "pink" questions in Trivial Pursuit).

Tom Matkin wrote:

> Marc makes an admission of rare ignorance of things Canadian:
>
> >
> > I don't know. Tom, Mark?
>
> Turns out that Howard Shore is a Canadian and that he cut his composing
> teeth on those old David Cronenberg suspense movies like "The Fly" and
> "Scanners".  I actually own a 1/2000 share of "Scanners" although I
> don't think I've ever watched it and I'm sure it never came to my
> attention until today that it had a musical score.  I just looked all
> this up on Google.  Well except for the part about my tax shelter
> investment in Canadian movie classics, "Scanners"  "Hog Wild" and
> something else starring Elliott Gould and Tatum O'Neal that I forget and
> no one else remembers either.  Sadly the residuals stopped rolling in a
> long time ago. Long before the capital investment was recovered even, if
> you can believe it. Anyway I guess this connection means that Howard and
> I are practically like brothers, since we are both Canadians and have
> such a deep interest in the cinematic arts. So I recant my prior
> disinterest in the LOTR movies. Ya gotta love 'em fer the music, if
> nothing else, eh? And is my memory on this right or have I forgotten
> this too, wasn't the LOTR music really loud? Loud enough to blow the top
> right off of your head maybe?  Ooops, that's the plot line for
> "Scanners".  My mistake.
>
> Tom
>
> >
> > "John W. Redelfs" wrote:
> >
> > > Is it true that Howard Shore, the composer of the music for The Lord
> of
> > the
> > > Rings, is a Canadian?  Regardless, my hat is off to him.  The music
> is
> > one
> > > of the best things about the movie.  Of course, that is just my
> humble
> > > opinion. --JWR
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Marc A. Schindler
> > Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
> >
> > "Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
> more
> > people
> > see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield
> >
> > Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
> > author
> > solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
> > employer,
> > nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
> >
> >
> 
> //
> > 
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> 
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> > ///
> >
>
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions

[Marc A. Schindler]

There is a carob bean, actually, and I know it's grown in tropical climates, but
that's about all I know about it. I'm not sure what they do with it, except
perhaps use its oil (like canola, linseed or safflower).

This reminds me of an incident that happened when JWR was at our house. I said the
word "amalgam" but pronounced it AM-al-gam. John wanted to know if that was a
Canadian pronunciation, as he'd always said ah-MAL-gam. And he was right -- I had
put the em-PHAS-is on the wrong syl-LAB-le. I guess I just hadn't heard the word
spoken often enough for its pronunciation to sink in. There are a lot of words
like that that I've encountered while reading, that I'd be too embarrassed to say
out loud for fear I'd be mangling the pronunciation -- the sure sign of an
over-dilettantish but sincere amateur ;-)


...I just did a google search and found an FAO publication which says it's also
known as the locust bean, and its gum is apparently used as a laxative. Now you
know I couldn't have just made that one up!

Ya learn something knew every day...

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Marc-
> > No wonder Microsoft's spellchecker is so lousy ;-) (carabiners,
> > from a German word for "carbine hook".
>
> Ah. I had never seen/heard the term, and the guy (Russian)
> called/spelled them "carob-beaners". I wondered how that term had come
> about. What's a "carob bean", anyway?
>
> But I had nothing to do with Microsoft's spell-checker. Otherwise, it
> wouldn't suggest "Bereft" every time I write my name.
>
> > IIRC, aren't Italy's alpine police known as carabinieri?)
>
> Yes, the special forces guys who carry machine guns. Also known as
> carob-beaners.
>

Ah, so maybe "carob" is the north Italian word (what's that funny Rhaeto-Romanish
dialect they speak up in some of the valleys in the Alps near the Swiss border,
Ladino or something like that?) for "head." They bop people on the carobs with
their machine guns.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] New guy

[Marc A. Schindler]

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> It would have been nice if you had joined me in my protest, Marc.  I don't
> remember hearing a peep from you.  There is a bishop in my stake who is a
> longtime Mormon-L-er, and he didn't say anything either.  Bob Westover
> didn't say anything either.  I wasn't so disgusted with Richard Russell's
> blasphemy.  I expected as much from him.  But the lack of protest persuaded
> me that I had no place on the list.  I was truly offended by the lack of
> protest. You know what would have happened if someone had said something
> negative about D. Michael Quinn.
>
> Aw... nevermind.  It is all ancient history.

Well, I guess we remember it differently. But my style on Mormon-L, where I kind
of considered myself a self-appointed "home teacher" in the same sense I am
responsible for the "no contacts" in our ward* is such that I wasn't going to come
out and call people blasphemers or whatever, but I distinctly remember asking that
people observe the golden rule; that just as they didn't like some of your
characterizations of liberals, they, too, should show some respect and common
decency. Also, as I recall, it was RR who made the remark, I believe it was PB.
But I could be mistaken. Probably neither one of us cares enough about it to
search Mormon-L's archives.

And I also remember on more than one occasion writing exactly, "I'm with John on
this one," although I can't remember offhand what the issues were at the time. And
I wasn't the only one -- there were other "TBM's" there, too. Some didn't stick
around very long, mind you.

I'm not on Mormon-L anymore in any case; I cut back a lot of my Internet activity
for various reasons, but mostly because of my health.

*so what does a "no contact" home teacher do? He sends out monthly newsletters,
with a bit of eye-catching news to get their interest (say, like about Burton
Cummings) and adds a spiritual message (my last one was from a book by Sis.
Ozaki).

>
>
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday
> School and seminary classes every fourth year. This
> four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by
> Church members in their personal and family study. We
> need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get
> a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by
> any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988)
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
> //
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Marc A. Schindler]

You've said it much more coherently and succinctly than I did. Thanks. As I've
explained in a separate post to Stephen, it depends on what you mean by "natural"
law. There are, I think, two connotations, one an earthly ("corruptible") sense
and one an eternal ("incorruptible") sense, but not "magic" -- that's
Protestantism, as you rightly point out.

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly
> Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him.  They are
> uncreate.  And it was by obedience to these laws that he because
> God.  Remember, he was once a mortal man.  The idea that he made all the
> laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant
> idea.  It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is
> impossible even for God.
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Marc A. Schindler]

We'll give you enough time for you and JWR to become gods, but no longer. We're an
impatient bunch, ya know...

George Cobabe wrote:

> Give me some time John and I think I can demonstrate that this is not
> necessarily so.
>
> George
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "John W. Redelfs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
>
> > Jim Cobabe favored us with:
> > >I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is "subject
> > >to natural law" in the same sense that we are.  To put it thus
> > >incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause.
> > >
> > >God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of
> > >His power--the laws are subordinate to Him.  They are becase He is.  He
> > >acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because
> > >He is "subject" to natural law, but because "natural" laws are _His_
> > >laws.
> >
> > It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly
> > Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him.  They are
> > uncreate.  And it was by obedience to these laws that he because
> > God.  Remember, he was once a mortal man.  The idea that he made all the
> > laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant
> > idea.  It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is
> > impossible even for God.
> >
> >
> > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > ***
> > "...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest" --Joseph
> > Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248
> > ***
> > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
> >
> >
> 
> //
> > ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> > ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> >
> 
> /
> >
> >
> >
>
> //
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>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[George Cobabe]

Marc - it seems the question is not he definition of natural law, except as
it involves who created that law.

The question is:  Did God, i.e. our God, create the natural law for his
creation or did He just transpose it from the overall eternal concept of
Natural Law.

Is every universe, form every God - the same or can they vary?

I, of course, do not know the answer but I believe that the law of our
universe was created by our Father.

This does not mean that He did not progress from a universe that had the
same, nor different, natural laws.

When we are told that God created all in the universe - I believe it.

George

- Original Message -
From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:37 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21


I think we just need to be careful how we're using the terms. If I may be a
bit
presumptuous, there is a sense in which I would agree with you, if you're
using
the term the way Kent P. Jackson does: [studies in Scripture, vol. 7:1]

The Creation
There is a tendency for people in our generation to discount the "special
creation" account of the origin of our heaven and earth as related in the
Bible.
The modern trend is to accept a "naturalistic" or "mechanistic" view of the
origin
of our solar system, including our earth and all things upon it. fn Such a
view
proposes that these things came into existence by chance-by the strict
operation
of "natural law" rather than by God's purposes being fulfilled as a result
of his
wisdom and power. This mechanistic view looks upon natural law as eternal or
self-existent and as determining absolutely what happens to physical matter
over a
given time. There is no allowance for a divine or supernatural power of any
kind
over physical matter. fn Such a view leaves no room for a God who has all
knowledge and who thinks and plans (no divine purpose in the universe); fn
for a
sovereign God who is all powerful fn and who is the author of natural law (a
God
who has control or power directly over physical matter); fn or for miracles
or
divine intervention (God cannot change or revoke natural law). fn This
"mechanistic" view also eliminates the spiritual realm in the universe
wherein
spirit matter (with "intelligence") can influence or control physical or
other
spirit matter. This assumes that the spirit matter does not exist; fn
people,
animals, and plants do not have spirits; fn there is no such thing as a God
with a
spirit; fn and there is no influence whatsoever from God to the spirits of
people
fn or to anything else in the universe. fn Obviously this view also
eliminates
revelation, so there can be no such thing as commandments from God. Such a
view
relegates man (and other "living" creatures) to a position of being mere
physical
machines with no agency or freedom to act by themselves. fn They can only be
acted
upon, since all actions or events are determined completely by preceding
physical
events and subsequent operation of natural law.

But that's not the way I was using the term, and I disagree with his choice
of
several words, including "supernatural." In any case, I am using it the way
Joseph
Fielding Smith did, e.g., in Man: His Origin and Destiny (484):

A miracle is not, as many believe, the setting aside or overruling natural
laws.
Every miracle performed in Biblical days or now, is done on natural
principles and
in obedience to natural law. The healing of the sick, the raising of the
dead,
giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it may be that is done by the power
of God,
is in accordance with natural law. Because we do not understand how it is
done,
does not argue for the impossibility of it. Our Father in heaven knows many
laws
that are hidden from us.

And the way James E. Talmage did in Jesus the Christ (81):

That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father,
not in
violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation
thereof;
and, the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial
Sireship,
and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the 'Son of the
Highest.'

The problem arises out of the word "natural," and is a limitation of our
language.
By natural are we referring to the corruptible telestial world, or are we
referring simply to the fact that there are higher laws which are "natural"
but
which operate in *their* realms, and which we by their and our very nature
cannot
comprehend? I'm using the term in its latter connotation.

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Marc-
> > We LDS do *not* believe God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans
> > used this term -- we believe he's subject to "natural law,"
>
> Perhaps you believe so. I don't. God's word defines "natural law". He is
> the master, not the subject. That is why he is called the Lawgiver.
>
> Stephen
>
>

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> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
>

Re: [ZION] World's Tallest Buildings

[Marc A. Schindler]

My wife treated me to pizza tonight (we went to the local Boston Pizza) and she
was telling me that she had heard that one of the guys who crashed the plane into
the WTC was an architect, and had very strong (doh!) opinions on how the West's
architecture was blasphemous. I won't go into all of what she had heard (and I'm
not sure where she heard or read this), but one aspect of it was something we'd
call a "tower of Babylon" complex (my words, not her's).  Don't know if this is
true, and even if it were, it certainly wouldn't come close to justifying his
involvement in the atrocity, but I thought it was an interesting thought. But for
various reasons I think European and North American countries have kind of gotten
through our skyscraper phase, if I can put it that way. More and more the action
is in exurban "industrial estates" -- Redmond WA and Santa Clara CA being a couple
of the original ones, along with places like Framingham MA and Clearwater FL (or
in Canada, Markham ON, Kanata ON, Richmond BC and Ste.-Anne-de-Bellevue QC* come
to mind).

It's in Asia, which is just entering the industrial era in a major way, where
we're seeing all the big skyscrapers go up now. Hong Kong and Shanghai, but
according to Elden Watson, who recently came back from a trip to China and showed
me some scanned photos he'd taken, even in places like Shenzhen (the "red" side of
Hong Kong), Chonqing (what we used to call Chungking) and Guangzhou (Canton) there
are plans for skyscrapers over 500 m high. Even the CN tower is only 550 metres
and a bit -- but it's only arguably a "building" (I'd call it a "structure", or as
locals laconically observe, the worst food at the highest altitude).

Not that I'm necessarily defending super-tall skyscrapers (I don't have strong
feelings one way or the other, but do admit to sunburning my tonsils in awe
sometimes when I see some of them for the first time -- the "wow factor"), but I
think the local opinion is, "well show 'em, we'll build it back again, only higher
and bigger."

*that's where the robotic arms (both versions) of the space shuttle were built,
and is also a centre for pharmaceutical R&D. Markham has a big IBM R&D centre, and
Richmond is home to Macdonald Dettweiler [sp?], who designed and built RADARSAT, a
Canadian remote sensing satellite which can look below the earth's surface using
radar.

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> I think it is hubris to imagine we should build towers still taller than
> the WTC.  Sure they can build them, but the experience with the WTC proves
> that someone else can knock them down.  What is the point?  Why make
> buildings a tempting target unnecessarily?  I should think that the
> builders of the WTC would have learned their lesson.  Super tall building
> are not a good idea.
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Marc A. Schindler]

Thanks for the additional insight. Looks like I was a bit out-of-date -- I was
stretching back to my bonehead philosophy class in university. But there must be
some kind of term for a belief in an *im*personal higher power. Any philosophers
on the list?

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> This isn't quite right, Marc.  I used to be a Deist, and among Deists no
> such distinctions are made between a personal and impersonal God.  A Deist
> was one who believed only what all religions (of the day) held in common,
> ie. 1) a supreme being, 2) a system of punishments and rewards after death,
> etc.  Here is a passage from the current online Britannica* that will set
> you straight:
>
> It is my understanding that most of our Founders were Deists.  Knowing as
> they did that the religions then extant were the irrational philosophies of
> men, they tried to strip away all the incrustations of sectarianism and
> return to the most fundamental basics common to all.  No wonder they joined
> the Church when they got a chance.  No wonder I did.
>

And this part I would agree with without hesitation. In Jefferson's numerous
letters on the matter, including his famous (or infamous, depending on your pov)
letter regarding the "curtain between church and state", it seems like he was
acting as much out of disgust with existing religions as anything, but he did
write some things which indicated he did not believe Jesus Christ was anything
other than a very enlightened teacher. Unfortunately, it's like quoting dead
prophets: without their presence to defend or explain themselves, we can but try
to interpret them, and we know what that leads to.

*totally off-topic, but this reminds me. I've been tempted to pay for a
subscription to Britannica online (I remember you mentioning it was one of the few
sites you felt were worth paying for). Well it turns out that if we order our 2002
tax software, QuickTax, from Intuit this month, we get a free Britannica online
CD-ROM set/subscription. I emailed that form back pretty quickly!

Oh, and ObLocalBoosterism: Intuit's Canadian operations are HQ'd here in Edmonton
for various reasons, but the people in Santa Clara wanted them to expand, to take
over the marketing and development of QuickTax/Quicken for the Pacific Rim and
parts of South America, as well as establish a tech support call centre to cover
all of North America, but they wanted them to move from Edmonton to a more
geographically "sensible" location. The local leadership didn't want to move so
came to us (when I was a trade officer for our provincial ministry of Innovation &
Science) for help. I helped, together with my Edmonton city counterpart, put
together a package showing that Edmonton was the most cost-effective place for
them to locate *all* their operations, including the Santa Clara one. Well, of
course, they didn't go quite that far, but I took a lot of pride when they opened
their new building in SE Edmonton a few years ago which quintupled their previous
space. So if you ever call tech support for Intuit, tell the guy or gal on the
other end of the line, "How 'boot them Oilers, eh?!"

And Mark and I know a story about his old boss, Glenn, but I can never tell it
publicly ;-) [seriously, part of the law here, which is consistent with how civil
servants work in commonwealth countries is that according to Section 19 of the
Alberta Public Service Act, anything that's said to me by a private company in
confidence is to be held in confidence just as if I had signed a NDA with them. I
know lots of stuff about Microsoft, too -- mostly good, incidentally -- but could
never talk about it publicly. The only reason I can talk about Intuit is because
the local president, who is also now the VP International for all of Intuit,
publicly thanked the two of us for our help when they had the ribbon-cutting, so
I'm simply repeating what's already on the public record]

Boy, that was a rambling, post, eh? When your wife treats you to good pizza it
puts a feller in a good mood.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Paul Osborne]

Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin??

Two of my most favorites. :-) 

I think had they lived a little later they would have been unfailing arms
of the prophet Joseph Smith.

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Paul Osborne]

>The other doctrine, that he created all the natural laws, 
>is a Protestant doctrine.


Yep, I agree with John. The laws of the universe were not invented but
have always been. There never was a first Father...

Paul O
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[ZION] LDS Ex-Utah Representative Found Dead in Tel Aviv

[Marc A. Schindler]

[Thanks to Scott Gordon at FAIR for bringing this to my attention]

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20021218_2241.html

Ex-Utah Rep. Owens Found Dead in Tel Aviv
Former Utah Rep. Wayne Owens Found Dead on Tel Aviv Beach; He Was 65

The Associated Press

WASHINGTON Dec. 18th

Wayne Owens, a former Utah congressman and longtime advocate for Middle
East peace, was found dead Wednesday in Israel, according to the State
Department. He was 65.

Owens, a Democrat, served four terms in Congress and helped launch the
Center for Middle East Peace and Economic Cooperation, a
Washington-based group dedicated to fostering peace in the troubled
region.

His body was found on a beach in Tel Aviv at about 9 p.m. local time
Wednesday, according to Stuart Patt, spokesman for the State
Department's Consular Affairs Bureau. He apparently died of natural
causes, Patt said.

Owens was on business in the region. A spokesman for the family could
not immediately be reached.

"What Wayne Owens did was change people's lives. He did it in so many
ways. He was dedicated to public service," said University of Utah
political science professor Tim Chambless, who interned for Owens in the
spring of 1973 and later worked on his campaign. "He changed my life.
It's a great loss."

In Congress, Owens, a native of Panguitch, Utah, fought to protect more
than 5 million acres of Utah wilderness, sponsored legislation to
compensate those sickened by radioactive fallout from nuclear weapons
tests in Nevada, and used his seat on the House Foreign Affairs
Committee to advocate for peace in the Middle East.

He was first elected in 1972 and served as a member of the House
Judiciary Committee where he voted to impeach President Nixon and was
part of a group of freshman Democrats who forced a vote to end the
Vietnam War.

He lost a bid for Senate in 1974 to Republican Jake Garn and made an
unsuccessful bid for governor in 1984. In 1986, he regained Utah's 2nd
District seat, which he held until 1992, when he again ran for Senate,
losing to Republican Bob Bennett.

Owens helped launch the Center for Middle East Peace and Economic
Cooperation in 1989 and served as its president, spending much of the
last decade meeting with leaders in the region trying to foster peace
through economic development.

Utah Rep. Jim Matheson said he was "very shocked" to hear of Owens'
death. Matheson, who ran Owens' campaign for governor in 1984, said
Owens served as a political mentor to his whole family.

"I think that's true for a lot of people in public service," Matheson
said. "The first memory I have of a campaign in Utah was when he walked
the state in 1972. He brought a certain energy and enthusiasm to
politics."

Starting in 1965, Owens worked as a staffer for Utah Sen. Frank Moss and
Massachusetts Sen. Edward Kennedy. He was the Rocky Mountain coordinator
for Robert Kennedy's 1968 presidential bid. He spent six years as a
full-time missionary for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints.

He is survived by his wife Marlene and five children. Funeral plans have
yet to be announced.


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[Jon Spencer]

John W. Redelfs wrote:
> Power corrupts, and absolute
> power corrupts absolutely.

Then, it must follow as night follows day that everyone on this list is lily
white, since if any of us had any power we wouldn't have the time to spend
on this email list!

Jon

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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[Jon Spencer]

One of the things that I love about this list is that we can spat about one
thread while we are kissing and hugging on another.

Jon

- Original Message -
From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?




George Cobabe wrote:

> Marc, rather than start another political yelling match with you about the
> USA and our policies, I will just say you are all screwed up and let it go
> at that.
>

Okay. But I never did any yelling. No one ever proved me wrong on the last
issue
about the role of spokespeople in the Westminster system. Let's remember
that two
claims were made by Jim, who started the thread by posting an article from
the
Toronto Star:

1) the comment about Bush being a "moron" was made publicly. I showed (as
did,
indeed, the article itself) that it wasn't public. I got a "so what" kind of
half-hearted acknowledgement from someone -- either Jim or Stephen, I can't
remember which -- but that's all.

2) the comment was made by a politician. As a civil servant in a
Westminster-style
government, I explained why she wasn't a politician. You will never see a
person
like Francie Ducros giving a public statement -- it's always the minister
who does
(we consider this one of the basics of "responsible government" which means
the
minister is the one who is responsible, and everything in his or her
department is
always done in his/her name; civil servants never issue statements or hold
press
conferences like they do in the U.S. I never got an acknowledgement that Jim
was
wrong in his assumption that the rest of the world acts like the U.S. in
this
regard).

But you're free to express an emotional opinion, as we all are.

>
> I am reminded of the old story of the Stallion and the horse fly.  The fly
> kept biting the horse but when it was all over the fly was still an
insect,
> and the horse was still a stallion.
>
> So keep biting at the USA if it makes you feel better as a Canadian, but
> remember what is true in the end.
>

You are being presumptuous about my motives, and you're wrong, too. But if
helps
you feel better to hold this belief about my motives, go for it.

>
> It is always easy to criticize when you are out of the loop and unable to
do
> anything about it.
>

I don't understand this comment. I believe I was *in* the loop on that
issue,
since I happen to have first-hand experience of the process involved.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will
pick
himself up and continue on" - Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.


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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[Jon Spencer]

This is all fine and dandy, Marc, but you sidestepped my question.

Do you drink beer?  (And, while I'm at it, did you play Homer on the
series?) :-)

Jon

- Original Message -
From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?


More to the point, he's a *Hindu* Indian, as you can tell both from his name
and
from the way his wife dresses (there was an episode when his family and the
Simpsons had dinner together). Pakistan and Bangladesh were both intended to
be
part of India when India was given its independence, but Ali Jamnah [sp from
memory], who would later become the first president of Pakistan, was afraid
that
Nehru would not be able to guarantee Muslim rights in the proposed secular
state
and insisted on a separate Muslim state. The result was thousands of deaths
as
many Moslems left India and practically all the Hindus left Pakistan. And
eventually, of course, the East Bengali Moslems separated and formed yet a
third
country, Bangladesh. India has pretty well kept to its secularism (despite
the
rise of the BHP) and ironically remains the world's largest Muslim country
(in
terms of raw population numbers), whereas Pakistan, and to a lesser extent,
Bangladesh, have become hotbeds of Islamic extremism, and even Pakistan's
historical Christian communities (part of a community which claims to date
from
the Apostle Thomas's time) have come under quite a bit of persecution.

India is an incredibly complex and heterogenous country.

Jon Spencer wrote:

> Jim Cobabe wrote:
>
> >
> > Jon Spencer wrote:
> > ---
> > I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani
> > owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods!  :-)
> > ---
> >
> > Sounds like a Simpsons episode.
>
> Actually, teh convenience store owner in the Simpsons is an Indian, but
they
> sort of look alike, so what's the difference?  Opps!  Now I guess I have
to
> pull a Lott.  I wonder if I can get in IET (Indian Entertainment TV).
>
> >
> > Come to think of it, perhaps we could draw some interesting and
> > instructive parallels between Homer and his Canadian
> > counterpart-apparent.  :-0
>
> Homer drinks beer, so he could never be a Bishop.  At least I thikn so.
> Marc, you don't drink beer, do you? :-)
>
> Jon
>
>

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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will
pick
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Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Jim Cobabe]

John W. Redelfs wrote:
---
The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed 
to become a God is a Protestant idea.  It is akin to creating something 
from nothing, which of course is impossible even for God.
---

One of the problems we encounter in discussing such ideas is the inertia 
of a massive Catholic and Protestant lexicon, which intrudes everywhere 
with false ideas and distortions of the truth.  The "omni" words are 
overburdened in this sense, and it would probably simplify things if we 
just abandoned them and coined our own "ideosyncratic" terms with our 
own unique definitions.

Joseph Smith's teachings clearly indicate that our spirits were 
coeternal with God, from before the beginning of time, but that God 
instituted the laws in the premortal world which constitute for us the 
plan of salvation.  These are the natural laws to which I make 
reference.

"God himself," the Prophet says, "finding he was in the midst of spirits 
and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws 
whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The 
relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in 
knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker 
intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might 
have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, powers, glory, and 
intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of 
spirits." (Teachings, p. 354.) 

Thus the plan of salvation (of redemption, and of exaltation) comprises 
all of the laws, ordinances, principles, and doctrines by conformity to 
which the spirit offspring of God have power to progress to the high 
state of exaltation enjoyed by the Father.
 (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 
1966], 575.)

He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all 
things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all 
things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and 
all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever.

And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things, 
by which they move in their times and their seasons;(D&C 88:41-42)

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Marc A. Schindler]

George Cobabe wrote:

> Marc - it seems the question is not he definition of natural law, except as
> it involves who created that law.
>
> The question is:  Did God, i.e. our God, create the natural law for his
> creation or did He just transpose it from the overall eternal concept of
> Natural Law.
>
> Is every universe, form every God - the same or can they vary?
>
> I, of course, do not know the answer but I believe that the law of our
> universe was created by our Father.
>

I agree. In this sense I take the term "natural law" to mean a telestial law, a
law of "corruptness" as Paul would say.

>
> This does not mean that He did not progress from a universe that had the
> same, nor different, natural laws.
>

And that's the second way to use the term, the way I think John and I are, as
another way of saying there's no such thing as "magic".

>
> When we are told that God created all in the universe - I believe it.
>

Then the discussion might be more profitable if we separated our existing universe
fromwell, whatever it is that transcends it.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Paul Osborne]

God does what his Father did before him...

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Stephen Beecroft]

-Marc-
> The problem arises out of the word "natural," and is a limitation
> of our language. By natural are we referring to the corruptible
> telestial world, or are we referring simply to the fact that
> there are higher laws which are "natural" but which operate in
> *their* realms, and which we by their and our very nature cannot
> comprehend? I'm using the term in its latter connotation.

I don't disagree with this. My hesitation comes in labelling God as 
something other than omnipotent, even in saying that God isn't 
omnipotent "in the sense the [Roman Catholics] believed". The fact that 
other religions don't understand the meaning of words like "omnipotent" 
does not negate the fact that God is truly all-powerful, far, far beyond 
any remote possibility that we have to imagine it. No, God can't do 
undoable things, like save people in their sins, or make a thing 
simultaneously exist and not exist. But these things are ultimately 
tautologically false; that is, they defy their own definition. I would 
be surprised if any man or woman can name something that God cannot do, 
whether because of the limitations of "natural law" or anything else, 
that doesn't fall into this class of false-by-definition.

Stephen

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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Stephen Beecroft]

-John-
> It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which
> Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him.
> They are uncreate.  And it was by obedience to these laws that
> he because God.

My understanding follows Jim's quotation of Joseph Smith's teachings and 
of the scriptures; that God *instituted laws* among us. Whether those 
laws were pre-existent or not seems of little import. Remember, Marc's 
comment was that God is "subject to 'natural law'". This is demonstrably 
untrue; God is above nature, has created nature, and has instituted her 
laws.

Physicists now postulate that our universe was born perhaps 13 billion 
years ago, and that the laws of physics that we observe came into being 
at that point. If this is the case, then since we Latter-day Saints 
consider God to have been the creator of this universe, we could 
certainly imagine that he might have chosen whatever other set of 
physical laws to exist instead. We might also imagine that, as creator 
of the universe, he exists in such a state as to be able to effect 
whatever changes in it that he sees fit -- that is, he is "above" the 
universe, not subject to it. He could, for example, "travel faster than 
light", an event that doesn't even have a well-defined meaning to us.

I don't pretend the above is LDS doctrine. Rather, it is compatible with 
LDS doctrine, and is the closest I can come to reconciling doctrinal 
truth with scientific understanding. In any case, I feel quite sure that 
God is the Lawgiver, the creator of the universe, the God of nature, and 
thus to claim that he is "subject to 'natural law'" is incorrect.

> The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he
> progressed to become a God is a Protestant idea.

Hardly. Protestantism rejects as blasphemous the very idea that God 
"pregressed to become a God", so they certainly have no opinion on 
whether he created the laws that led to that exaltation! Besides, the 
laws governing God's exaltation are not the point under discussion; 
rather, we're talking about "natural law" and whether God is subject to 
it.

Stephen

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[ZION] Natural Law

[George Cobabe]

The purpose of my giving these quotations is not to prove that I am right,
when I suggest that God created what we think of as Natural Law, but rather
to suggest that there are a great many people who agree with me in that
concept.  Read particularly the conclusions of a paper at the end of the
email message.  Much of what is quoted by Sis Black is from a paper by LaMar
Garrard, "God, Natural Law, and the Doctrine and Covenants"  A work that is
quoted many times in various places in the sources I found in Gospel Link.





1.  The great stumbling block to acceptance of the crucifixion and the
resurrection, seems to be that they are thought opposed to natural law. But
what is natural law? Who established it? It is conceded on almost all sides
that there is a supernatural law operative in this universe. Who is to say
that in effecting the purposes of God it may not transcend natural law? If
you grant God at all, does it seem consistent to suppose that He set laws in
motion which froze Him outside of them and rendered Him impotent before the
works of His own hands?

(Albert E. Bowen, Conference Report, April 1944, Third Day-Morning Meeting
130.)



2.  I believe with all my heart that natural law is the handiwork of a
Loving Father in heaven, ..."

(Robert L. Simpson, Conference Report, April 1963, Second Day-Morning
Meeting 52.)



3.  "All kingdoms have a law given: and there are many kingdoms; for there
is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in
which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto
every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds
also and conditions."



(Brigham H. Roberts., Conference Report, October 1917, Outdoor Meeting 101.)



Note that Bro Roberts did not say that there is a law that is given for all
kingdoms, but rather that there is a law for each kingdom, and there are
many kingdoms.



 4.  "..conveys to us the splendid thought, I think, that we live under the
reign of law. Nothing is going to happen in this world but what shall be
under the dominion of law. Even the destructive forces themselves have their
bounds and limitations fixed by the decree of God-the law."



(Brigham H. Roberts., Conference Report, October 1917, Outdoor Meeting 102.)



5.  Which came first, natural law or God? It is my thesis that God came
first, for natural law in our universe has its origin in the mind of our
God: he thinks and plans ahead according to his wisdom as to how he wants
the elements to behave and then has the power to command them to behave in
that prescribed orderly and consistent manner. That prescription is a
natural law. The orderly and consistent manner in which the elements obey
these commandments is not natural law itself but the product of God's wisdom
and power. Sometimes God commands the elements to change their behavior from
that which they have consistently done in the past to a new behavior which
we are not used to observing. We call that a miracle. Sometimes Christ
intentionally performed these miracles during his earthly ministry as
evidence to the Jews that he had power over the elements, that he was indeed
the Lord God over the universe.



Some have taken the position that natural laws existed before any God. If
such were the case, these natural laws would be self-existing: they would
not have originated in the mind of a God according to his wisdom and
knowledge and would not have depended upon his power for their enforcement.
Proponents of this theory feel that because God would then not be the author
these self-existing laws, he would not have the power to change or revoke
them. His role then would have been similar to that of a scientist who
merely discovers these self-existing natural laws and then works with them
rather than creating them. Miracles would be explained away as God's
manipulating the elements in a manner with which we are not familiar: he
would be using higher natural laws that he had discovered and worked with
but of which man was not yet aware. It is proposed that such views have
risen in the minds of some because they have unwittingly accepted some of
the premises of the philosophy of naturalism without critically examining
this philosophy itself and what it implies. To understand why some began to
believe in natural laws that are self-existing, it is necessary to trace
historically the rise of this philosophy, as science also rose and
developed. Of necessity, our discussion will cover such subjects as God,
man, physical matter, and spirit matter, since they are all interrelated
with the subject of natural law.



(Susan Easton Black et al., Doctrines for Exaltation: The 1989 Sperry
Symposium on the Doctrine and Covenants [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co.,
1989], 55.)



6.  Furthermore, the Doctrine and Covenants depicts Christ as a divine
monarch sitting upon his throne, who not only created the universe but
continues to command or govern the elements through the Light of C

RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Stephen Beecroft]

> I would be surprised if any man or woman can name something that
> God cannot do, whether because of the limitations of "natural 
>law" or anything else, that doesn't fall into this class of
> false-by-definition.

Sorry for the weenie-speak. Let me try again:

I disbelieve that any man or woman can -- and in fact defy anyone to -- 
name something that God cannot do, whether because of the limitations of 
"natural law" or anything else, that doesn't fall into this class of 
false-by-definition.

Stephen

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RE: [ZION] Natural Law

[Stephen Beecroft]

-George-
> Much of what is quoted by Sis Black is from a paper by LaMar
> Garrard, "God, Natural Law, and the Doctrine and Covenants"

Brother Garrard may well have been my wife's and my favorite teacher at 
BYU, even though we only ever had him for one class. When he came in the 
first day, I thought he was the goofiest-looking teacher I had ever 
seen. By the end of the term, I thought his face reflected the 
countenance of Jesus Christ. In fact, it was from him that I most 
forcefully learned that God is the Lawgiver, the very point we're 
discussing now. He's also the teacher who effectively pointed out that 
we do indeed believe in salvation by grace, despite what many Latter-day 
Saints mistakenly believe and even teach.

I also took a genealogy course from Sister Black, which I enjoyed quite 
a bit. I worked harder in that class than in any other religion class I 
ever took. I got very good marks all the way through on tests and 
projects, but only pulled a 'B' on the final. My course grade: B+. I've 
never quite forgiven her for that... (Not that I'd normally be unhappy 
with a B+ in a tough course, but it's the only religion class I ever 
took that I got less than an 'A' in, and I honestly thought I'd earned 
an 'A'. Ah, well. Cue the violins. At least I know how to spell 
carob-beans.)

Stephen

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RE: [ZION] The latest from Iraq

[larry . jackson]

Marc Schindler:

That was not my point at all. Please reread it. ...
You are not criticizing what I wrote, but how you *read* it.

___

I'm not criticizing anything.  You are ignoring my point and I 
am ignoring your bait.

Spin on.

Larry Jackson
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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[George Cobabe]

"Then the discussion might be more profitable if we separated our existing
universe
fromwell, whatever it is that transcends it."

We must do so to even begin to understand, or for that matter argue over,
such matters.  It is the only thing that we are concerned with.except as
understanding the example of the Father in being exalted from a mortal man.

George

- Original Message -
From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21




George Cobabe wrote:

> Marc - it seems the question is not he definition of natural law, except
as
> it involves who created that law.
>
> The question is:  Did God, i.e. our God, create the natural law for his
> creation or did He just transpose it from the overall eternal concept of
> Natural Law.
>
> Is every universe, form every God - the same or can they vary?
>
> I, of course, do not know the answer but I believe that the law of our
> universe was created by our Father.
>

I agree. In this sense I take the term "natural law" to mean a telestial
law, a
law of "corruptness" as Paul would say.

>
> This does not mean that He did not progress from a universe that had the
> same, nor different, natural laws.
>

And that's the second way to use the term, the way I think John and I are,
as
another way of saying there's no such thing as "magic".

>
> When we are told that God created all in the universe - I believe it.
>

Then the discussion might be more profitable if we separated our existing
universe
fromwell, whatever it is that transcends it.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more
people
see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.


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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[George Cobabe]

He cannot break the laws that He has agreed to follow.

He cannot break His promises to his children.

If he did so he would cease to be God.

Note that both examples are self limiting, decisions that He has to make and
agree to.

George


- Original Message -
From: "Stephen Beecroft" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:32 PM
Subject: RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21


> > I would be surprised if any man or woman can name something that
> > God cannot do, whether because of the limitations of "natural
> >law" or anything else, that doesn't fall into this class of
> > false-by-definition.
>
> Sorry for the weenie-speak. Let me try again:
>
> I disbelieve that any man or woman can -- and in fact defy anyone to --
> name something that God cannot do, whether because of the limitations of
> "natural law" or anything else, that doesn't fall into this class of
> false-by-definition.
>
> Stephen
>
>

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Re: [ZION] Natural Law

[George Cobabe]

Stephen - apparently you are not the only one who admires him as I found an
inordinate amount of references to his publication on the subject of natural
law.  He was quoted by all sorts of people.

Thanks for reading the long post I sent.

George

- Original Message -
From: "Stephen Beecroft" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:39 PM
Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law


> -George-
> > Much of what is quoted by Sis Black is from a paper by LaMar
> > Garrard, "God, Natural Law, and the Doctrine and Covenants"
>
> Brother Garrard may well have been my wife's and my favorite teacher at
> BYU, even though we only ever had him for one class. When he came in the
> first day, I thought he was the goofiest-looking teacher I had ever
> seen. By the end of the term, I thought his face reflected the
> countenance of Jesus Christ. In fact, it was from him that I most
> forcefully learned that God is the Lawgiver, the very point we're
> discussing now. He's also the teacher who effectively pointed out that
> we do indeed believe in salvation by grace, despite what many Latter-day
> Saints mistakenly believe and even teach.
>
> I also took a genealogy course from Sister Black, which I enjoyed quite
> a bit. I worked harder in that class than in any other religion class I
> ever took. I got very good marks all the way through on tests and
> projects, but only pulled a 'B' on the final. My course grade: B+. I've
> never quite forgiven her for that... (Not that I'd normally be unhappy
> with a B+ in a tough course, but it's the only religion class I ever
> took that I got less than an 'A' in, and I honestly thought I'd earned
> an 'A'. Ah, well. Cue the violins. At least I know how to spell
> carob-beans.)
>
> Stephen
>
>

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[ZION] "Dr" Red Green was right all along

[Marc A. Schindler]

Duct tape really is good for you...

http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={C5BC794A-4AC7-4177-93A3-31E9EA95D88E}

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
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[ZION] What does a frigate do?

[Marc A. Schindler]

Ever wonder what the difference is between, say, a destroyer and a
frigate? Easy: frigates protect battleships and aircraft carriers.  A
story from aboard the HMCS Winnipeg in the Gulf of Oman:

http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=233C28A0-78ED-4BA2-BB04-C8A6AFCCC9EF

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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
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[ZION] Going, Going, Gone

[Marc A. Schindler]

A rare column by Canada's funniest conservative [tm] which is deadpan
serious and with which I agree (that combination being what's "rare," I
mean), on Henry Kissinger, Cardinal Law, and Trent Lott
http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={F0F3B60D-1024-4F3C-8E75-9F9E177632CD}

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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
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[ZION] Iraq

[Marc A. Schindler]

Am I For or Against War in Iraq? Somebody Please Persuade Me, pleads
Globe and Mail columnist and Generation-X'er Doug Saunders, writing from
CFB Kingston (where my son has taken sigint training, incidentally, and
near where he's currently attending university):

<>

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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
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author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
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Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq

[Marc A. Schindler]

I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. I do not need to "spin"
anything. Here it is again, since you keep deleting it in your responses, so
please either do me the courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy
(which is fine if you're tired of discussing it) or error:

===
Are you saying that the following doesn't say the US saw it first?

"The U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and
distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and
other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for
proliferation-sensitive information, State Department deputy spokesman Philip
Reeker said at the daily media briefing in Washington December 10.

" Reeker said once such information has been deleted, a working document will be
made available to other members of the council as soon as possible."

And again, in the Q&A session:

"Question: There have been some grumblings on the sideline about Washington taking
the first set of documents and whisking them down here to copy them off. Have  you
received any messages like that from Permanent 5 members or other Security Council
members?

" Mr. Reeker: No. And, in fact, all Permanent 5 members have their copies, as I
think  we talked about yesterday. As I mentioned, based on the Council president's
decision -- which was an appropriate one and consistent with the resolution -- we
assisted in ensuring the safeguards against release, transmission of
proliferation-sensitive  information, making sure that that was not jeopardized.

" So we did the copying of this. We got the copies to all of those members with
that  expertise and all together we will be assessing the full document to see
about  proliferation-sensitive information so that then we can make available to
other members of the Council a working document as soon as possible."

Now tell me: how is it possible to do copying for others when you don't have the
document yourself to begin with?


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Marc Schindler:
>
> That was not my point at all. Please reread it. ...
> You are not criticizing what I wrote, but how you *read* it.
>
> ___
>
> I'm not criticizing anything.  You are ignoring my point and I
> am ignoring your bait.
>
> Spin on.
>
> Larry Jackson
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> 
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
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RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Jim Cobabe]

George Cobabe wrote:
---
"Then the discussion might be more profitable if we separated our 
existing universe fromwell, whatever it is that transcends it."
 
We must do so to even begin to understand, or for that matter argue 
over, such matters.  It is the only thing that we are concerned with 
except as understanding the example of the Father in being exalted from 
a mortal man.
---

I personally find Mormon doctrine and philosophy to be singularly 
pragmatic in this respect.  Very few Mormon intellectuals have 
sequestered themselves in a Tibetan monastery to discover the meaning of 
the universe by contemplating the lint in their navel for five decades.  
We learn about the truths of life by living them and in engaging the 
world.

We cannot concern ourselves with things outside the sphere of knowable, 
simply because we don't have the luxury of time.  There are far too many 
pressing imperatives for me to attend, to attach any priority to lengthy 
philosophizing about other universes or alternative realities.

I'm keeping pretty busy just watching the trail out ahead.  For today, I 
worship my Heavenly Father in this life, give thanks for His great plan 
of salvation, and the mercy extended to me in the atonement of Jesus 
Christ.

I'm pretty clear on these particulars, and adding others day by day, as 
I can manage.

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] Iraq

[Jon Spencer]

You are probably wrong.

War is not imminent because we are not ready.  We will be in about one
month.

Also, I believe that the statements Bush makes are directed at Saddam
primarily, and not at the US populace.  I also believe that the US is trying
very hard to get a rebellion going in Iraq, although I personally hold out
little hope of that happening.

I do not believe that there will be any backing down.  IMNSHO, Bush honestly
believes that Saddam is a major threat to not only the US, bat also to
Canada (:-) and the rest of our allies.  Saddam will go.

And as hard as it is to imagine, I guess I, too, could be wrong.

Jon

- Original Message -
From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "zion-l" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 6:20 PM
Subject: [ZION] Iraq


I can't say "I told you so" yet but Bush has announced today that
despite the omissions in the report on WMD delivered by Iraq to the UN
(and only today being given to the non-permanent members of the Security
Council, incidentally), war is not imminent.

I've been of the opinion since this issue arose that there won't be a
war in Iraq, that the situation is at least as much about domestic US
politics as it is with anything actually going on in Iraq and that we'd
see a gradual backing down once the mid-term elections were past. I
could be wrong -- I guess we'll see.

http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=51180&id=2002121817270
00163465

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.


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Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions

[Jon Spencer]

OK.  How do you pronounce the word "iron?"  Do you say "I earn" or do you
say "I Ron" or what?

Jon

- Original Message -
From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions


There is a carob bean, actually, and I know it's grown in tropical climates,
but
that's about all I know about it. I'm not sure what they do with it, except
perhaps use its oil (like canola, linseed or safflower).

This reminds me of an incident that happened when JWR was at our house. I
said the
word "amalgam" but pronounced it AM-al-gam. John wanted to know if that was
a
Canadian pronunciation, as he'd always said ah-MAL-gam. And he was right --
I had
put the em-PHAS-is on the wrong syl-LAB-le. I guess I just hadn't heard the
word
spoken often enough for its pronunciation to sink in. There are a lot of
words
like that that I've encountered while reading, that I'd be too embarrassed
to say
out loud for fear I'd be mangling the pronunciation -- the sure sign of an
over-dilettantish but sincere amateur ;-)


...I just did a google search and found an FAO publication which says it's
also
known as the locust bean, and its gum is apparently used as a laxative. Now
you
know I couldn't have just made that one up!

Ya learn something knew every day...

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Marc-
> > No wonder Microsoft's spellchecker is so lousy ;-) (carabiners,
> > from a German word for "carbine hook".
>
> Ah. I had never seen/heard the term, and the guy (Russian)
> called/spelled them "carob-beaners". I wondered how that term had come
> about. What's a "carob bean", anyway?
>
> But I had nothing to do with Microsoft's spell-checker. Otherwise, it
> wouldn't suggest "Bereft" every time I write my name.
>
> > IIRC, aren't Italy's alpine police known as carabinieri?)
>
> Yes, the special forces guys who carry machine guns. Also known as
> carob-beaners.
>

Ah, so maybe "carob" is the north Italian word (what's that funny
Rhaeto-Romanish
dialect they speak up in some of the valleys in the Alps near the Swiss
border,
Ladino or something like that?) for "head." They bop people on the carobs
with
their machine guns.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more
people
see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
employer,
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Re: [ZION] Natural Law

[Marc A. Schindler]

They are all duly queued, waiting merely to be cued...

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> Ah, well. Cue the violins. At least I know how to spell
> carob-beans.)
>

--
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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Marc A. Schindler]

I understand that we would be wary of talking about God in any limiting way. But
if you will permit me a bit of "spin latitude" on this, you can always turn the
question around and say that it was those bad bad Catholics who ruined theology
with their martial language, fit only to order troops and civil servants around.
But that's the problem with words: once they've been used a certain way it sticks,
and all of its baggage comes with it, like when your mother-in-law comes to visit.
;-)

(E.g., will we ever admit to being "gay and dapper gentlemen" again?)

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -Marc-
> > The problem arises out of the word "natural," and is a limitation
> > of our language. By natural are we referring to the corruptible
> > telestial world, or are we referring simply to the fact that
> > there are higher laws which are "natural" but which operate in
> > *their* realms, and which we by their and our very nature cannot
> > comprehend? I'm using the term in its latter connotation.
>
> I don't disagree with this. My hesitation comes in labelling God as
> something other than omnipotent, even in saying that God isn't
> omnipotent "in the sense the [Roman Catholics] believed". The fact that
> other religions don't understand the meaning of words like "omnipotent"
> does not negate the fact that God is truly all-powerful, far, far beyond
> any remote possibility that we have to imagine it. No, God can't do
> undoable things, like save people in their sins, or make a thing
> simultaneously exist and not exist. But these things are ultimately
> tautologically false; that is, they defy their own definition. I would
> be surprised if any man or woman can name something that God cannot do,
> whether because of the limitations of "natural law" or anything else,
> that doesn't fall into this class of false-by-definition.
>
> Stephen
>
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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Jim Cobabe]

Paul Osborne wrote:
---
God does what his Father did before him...
---

Paul, I agree with this idea, but then must confess that it is about as 
far as I'm able to go, philosophically.  I don't claim to have much more 
insight here than extends from my own simple common sense, which really 
is pretty simple.  The idea, as Joseph Smith might say, "feels good" to 
me.  Anything more would just be uninformed speculation.  I can't claim 
enough understanding about exactly what it means to argue anything 
further.

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Marc A. Schindler]

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -John-
> > It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which
> > Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him.
> > They are uncreate.  And it was by obedience to these laws that
> > he because God.
>
> My understanding follows Jim's quotation of Joseph Smith's teachings and
> of the scriptures; that God *instituted laws* among us. Whether those
> laws were pre-existent or not seems of little import. Remember, Marc's
> comment was that God is "subject to 'natural law'". This is demonstrably
> untrue; God is above nature, has created nature, and has instituted her
> laws.
>

It's not demonstrably untrue; I went on to explain that the term had two meanings,
and quoted James E. Talmage and Joseph Fielding Smith to illustrate.

>
> He could, for example, "travel faster than
> light", an event that doesn't even have a well-defined meaning to us.
>

That's my point about telestial law. As Pres. Smith said, he has access to laws we
don't understand. But that doesn't make them any less laws.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Marc A. Schindler]

Jim, as one hammer to another, you have hit the nail right on the head: these
words have "baggage" that we have to be wary of. I don't think any of us here are
really disagreeing with each  other in substance (to use another word full of
ancient baggage), but only in semantics.

Jim Cobabe wrote:

> John W. Redelfs wrote:
> ---
> The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed
> to become a God is a Protestant idea.  It is akin to creating something
> from nothing, which of course is impossible even for God.
> ---
>
> One of the problems we encounter in discussing such ideas is the inertia
> of a massive Catholic and Protestant lexicon, which intrudes everywhere
> with false ideas and distortions of the truth.  The "omni" words are
> overburdened in this sense, and it would probably simplify things if we
> just abandoned them and coined our own "ideosyncratic" terms with our
> own unique definitions.
>
> Joseph Smith's teachings clearly indicate that our spirits were
> coeternal with God, from before the beginning of time, but that God
> instituted the laws in the premortal world which constitute for us the
> plan of salvation.  These are the natural laws to which I make
> reference.
>
> "God himself," the Prophet says, "finding he was in the midst of spirits
> and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws
> whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The
> relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in
> knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker
> intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might
> have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, powers, glory, and
> intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of
> spirits." (Teachings, p. 354.)
>
> Thus the plan of salvation (of redemption, and of exaltation) comprises
> all of the laws, ordinances, principles, and doctrines by conformity to
> which the spirit offspring of God have power to progress to the high
> state of exaltation enjoyed by the Father.
>  (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft,
> 1966], 575.)
>
> He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all
> things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all
> things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and
> all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever.
>
> And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things,
> by which they move in their times and their seasons;(D&C 88:41-42)
>
> ---
> Mij Ebaboc
>
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>

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Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
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Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?

[Marc A. Schindler]

Jon Spencer wrote:

> This is all fine and dandy, Marc, but you sidestepped my question.
>
> Do you drink beer?  (And, while I'm at it, did you play Homer on the
> series?) :-)
>

My promotion contract with Duff Inc. prohibits me from answering this question, on
the advice of my legal counsel

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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[ZION] Carob beans

[Jim Cobabe]

Carob is a unique substance that has an appearance similar to cocoa. It 
comes from the Ceratonia siliqua, an evergreen tree native to the 
Eastern Mediterranean area. This relatively wild tree, which grows up to 
50 feet tall, bears fruit at the age of six to eight years with a 
greater abundance of fruit every other year. The average annual yield 
per tree is 200-250 lbs. of fruit. Carob, or St. John's Bread, as it is 
commonly known, is a large (4-12 inch long) dried, bean-like pod. Pods 
are harvested from September to November. Inside the carob pods are tiny 
beans which are used to make locust bean gum, a stabilizer and thickener 
in foods. The carob pods themselves are roasted and ground into carob 
powder. Carob powder can be used to replace cocoa at levels from 25-50%. 
While carob performs like cocoa, it differs in sugar and fat content. 
Cocoa may contain up to 23% fat and 5% sugar while carob has .7% fat and 
a natural sugar content of 42-48%. Nutritionally, carob has none of the 
allergy-producing antibodies or the caffeine stimulant theobromine found 
in the cocoa bean. Carob contains as much vitamin B1 as asparagus or 
strawberries, the same amount of niacin as lima beans, lentils or peas 
and more vitamin A than eggplant, asparagus and beets. It is also high 
in vitamin B2, calcium, magnesium and iron. In addition to being a 
delicious and healthful foodstuff, carob powder is used as a tobacco 
flavoring and in the production of some pharmaceuticals. 

Matthew 3:1-6 (KJV) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in 
the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of 
heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet 
Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye 
the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his 
raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his 
meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all 
Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him 
in Jordan, confessing their sins. 

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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Marc A. Schindler]

It's quite possible. My point is simply that God uses humans for His own ends,
*whether those people are aware of it or not*.  After all, we use technology today
for the benefit of the Church (as well as society as a whole) that was developed
by men and women of all kinds of faith, including no faith. To say that God raised
a certain group up for a certain purpose is true, but it doesn't have to mean they
are akin to demi-gods, else all of us would be useless in the building up of the
Kingdom. I mean, heck, look at the philandering reputation of ol' Ben Franklin.
Okay, he'll have to answer for that (if it's true; again, just take this as a
rhetorical example) but that's not to deny the role Divinity had in the situation.

Paul Osborne wrote:

> Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin??
>
> Two of my most favorites. :-)
>
> I think had they lived a little later they would have been unfailing arms
> of the prophet Joseph Smith.
>
> Paul O
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> 
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> Only $9.95 per month!
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
see than weigh.” – Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[George Cobabe]

  I  can agree "that God is "subject to 'natural law", but only in the sense
that He has created those laws and needs to maintain the integrity to obey
the same rules that He has created.  If He did not honor His word or His law
He would cease to be God.

George

- Original Message -
From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 10:19 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law




Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -John-
> > It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which
> > Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him.
> > They are uncreate.  And it was by obedience to these laws that
> > he because God.
>
> My understanding follows Jim's quotation of Joseph Smith's teachings and
> of the scriptures; that God *instituted laws* among us. Whether those
> laws were pre-existent or not seems of little import. Remember, Marc's
> comment was that God is "subject to 'natural law'". This is demonstrably
> untrue; God is above nature, has created nature, and has instituted her
> laws.
>

It's not demonstrably untrue; I went on to explain that the term had two
meanings,
and quoted James E. Talmage and Joseph Fielding Smith to illustrate.

>
> He could, for example, "travel faster than
> light", an event that doesn't even have a well-defined meaning to us.
>

That's my point about telestial law. As Pres. Smith said, he has access to
laws we
don't understand. But that doesn't make them any less laws.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more
people
see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.


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Re: [ZION] Going, Going, Gone

[George Cobabe]

story no longer available - if you want us to read it you almost need to
copy and paste.

George

- Original Message -
From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "zion-l" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:55 PM
Subject: [ZION] Going, Going, Gone


A rare column by Canada's funniest conservative [tm] which is deadpan
serious and with which I agree (that combination being what's "rare," I
mean), on Henry Kissinger, Cardinal Law, and Trent Lott
http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={F0F3B60D-1024-4F3C-8E75-9F9E
177632CD}

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

"Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh." - Lord Chesterfield

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.


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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Jim Cobabe]

George Cobabe wrote:
---
I can agree "that God is "subject to 'natural law", but only in the 
sense that He has created those laws and needs to maintain the integrity 
to obey the same rules that He has created.  If He did not honor His 
word or His law He would cease to be God.
---

The possibility that God would cease to be God is, of course, no 
possibility at all.  God has assured us that He is endless and eternal.

---
Mij Ebaboc

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RE: [ZION] Natural Law

[Jim Cobabe]

Another interesting reference to this question--

God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light and 
all law emanate from him (see D&C 88:13). Indeed, "all kingdoms have a 
law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the 
which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no 
space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is 
given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and 
conditions" (D&C 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, "He 
comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things 
are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and 
is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are 
by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever" (D&C 88:41). 

Joseph Smith asked, "Can we suppose that He [God] has a kingdom without 
laws? Or do we believe that it is composed of an innumerable company of 
beings who are entirely beyond all law? Consequently have need of 
nothing to govern or regulate them? Would not such ideas be a reproach 
to our Great Parent, and at variance with His glorious intelligence? 
Would it not be asserting that man had found out a secret beyond Deity? 
That he had learned that it was good to have laws, while God after 
existing from eternity and having power to create man, had not found out 
that it was proper to have laws for His government?" (Teachings of the 
Prophet Joseph Smith, 55).

"God," Joseph Smith taught, "has made certain decrees which are fixed 
and immovable; for instance, God set the sun, the moon, and the stars in 
the heavens, and gave them their laws, conditions and bounds, which they 
cannot pass, except by His commandments; they all move in perfect 
harmony in their sphere and order, and are as lights, wonders and signs 
unto us. The sea also has its bounds which it cannot pass. God has set 
many signs on the earth, as well as in the heavens; for instance, the 
oak of the forest, the fruit of the tree, the herb of the field, all 
bear a sign that seed hath been planted there; for it is a decree of the 
Lord that every tree, plant, and herb bearing seed should bring forth of 
its kind, and cannot come forth after any other law or principle" 
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 197-98).

God is not a scientist. He does not harness law and then use it to bless 
and govern his creations. God is the author and source of all law. Were 
this not the case, the powers of evil could seek his overthrow through 
the discovery of unknown laws. We would live in endless peril. Our 
prayers would then be for God, not to him, and scientists rather than 
prophets would hold the keys of salvation.

True it is that God was once a man obtaining his exalted status by 
obedience to the laws of his own eternal Father, but upon obtaining that 
station he becomes the source of light and law to all that he creates. 
Following this same pattern, the resurrected Christ said to the 
Nephites, "I am the law" (3 Ne. 15:9). 


 (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Answers: Straightforward Answers to Tough 
Gospel Questions [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998], 167.)

---
Mij Ebaboc

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RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law

[Jim Cobabe]

John,

I'm honestly not trying to promote Protestant doctrine.  But there are 
obviously some issues here that merit further consideration.

I am sure you realize that we are not necessarily covering new ground in 
any of our discussions on this list.  I have little doubt that the 
people of this world have been striving to learn the true nature of 
Heavenly Father since Adam was expelled from the Garden.

There is much to learn.  To complete the task requires an eternity on 
the job.

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] Iraq

[Marc A. Schindler]

Jon Spencer wrote:

> You are probably wrong.
>
> War is not imminent because we are not ready.  We will be in about one
> month.
>

So why did two complete naval battle groups start sailing *out of* the Middle East
earlier this week? Actually, this is an area where my "prognostication" has a weak
point, because you're right in principle; the war could be delayed until the US
feels it's ready. Any prognostication is at best an educated guess, and if I'm
wrong, well, it won't be the first time I've had to eat lumpy porridge ;-)

>
> Also, I believe that the statements Bush makes are directed at Saddam
> primarily, and not at the US populace.  I also believe that the US is trying
> very hard to get a rebellion going in Iraq, although I personally hold out
> little hope of that happening.
>

Why? Saddam isn't on Florida's voter list, is he? 

>
> I do not believe that there will be any backing down.  IMNSHO, Bush honestly
> believes that Saddam is a major threat to not only the US, bat also to
> Canada (:-) and the rest of our allies.  Saddam will go.
>
> And as hard as it is to imagine, I guess I, too, could be wrong.
>
> Jon
>

At least we're both covering our cyber-rear ends, so to speak...

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
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Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21

[Marc A. Schindler]

Jim Cobabe wrote:

>
>
> I'm pretty clear on these particulars, and adding others day by day, as
> I can manage.

One can't really ask for anything more. Good thing this is all good, clean fun,
eh?

--
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Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people
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