doublethink.
Living Room: Squeezelite - WDM-KS/HDMI - NAD M51 (Rowen Swiss Edition)
- Rowen Absolute MONO - Quad 22L
Sleeping Room: Radio
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/HDMI - NAD M51 (Rowen Swiss Edition)
- Rowen Absolute MONO - Quad 22L
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with cognitive dissonances?
Living Room: Squeezelite - WDM-KS/HDMI - NAD M51 (Rowen Swiss Edition)
- Rowen Absolute MONO - Quad 22L
Sleeping Room: Radio
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the real from the
false will always be hard. I hate marketing, to some degree it is a
necessary evil. Why can't humans just objectively find out for
themselves what's good and what's not?
Living Room: Squeezelite - WDM-KS/HDMI - NAD M51 (Rowen Swiss Edition)
- Rowen Absolute MONO - Quad 22L
Sleeping
/HDMI - NAD M51 - Rowen Absolute MONO - Quad
22L
Sleeping Room: Radio
Controller: iPad mini - iPeng 7
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Quad wrote:
I will try your modified squeezelite called JLP. What did you change?
Couldn't make it to work. The modified squeezelite crashes.
Server/Storage: Synology 412+ - LMS 7.7.2
Living Room: Windows Server 2012 R2 (core) - AudiophileOptimizer -
Squeezelite - WDM-KS/HDMI - NAD M51
ralphpnj wrote:
What I find very interesting is that the path that Quad appears to have
taken out of the land of audiophilia is very similar to the paths that
many of us have followed.
I find that once one begins to question the Golden Eared Gods of the
high end audio publications
.
Server/Storage: Synology 412+ - LMS 7.7.2
Living Room: Windows Server 2012 R2 (core) - AudiophileOptimizer -
Squeezelite - WDM-KS/HDMI - NAD M51 - Rowen Absolute MONO - Quad
22L
Sleeping Room: Radio
Controller: iPad mini - iPeng 7
.
Server/Storage: Synology DS412+ - LMS 7.7.2
Living Room: Windows Server 2012 R2 (core) - AudiophileOptimizer -
Squeezelite - WDM-KS/HDMI - NAD M51 - Rowen Absolute MONO - Quad
22L
Sleeping Room: Radio
Controller: iPad mini - iPeng 7
are still bit perfect...
Oupps, I might have just stirred up a hornet's nest... Sting me, I
really need that. :-)
Cheers
Living Room: Squeezelite - WDM-KS/HDMI - NAD M51 (Rowen Swiss Edition)
- Rowen Absolute MONO - Quad 22L
Sleeping Room: Radio
details in
which context my experience took place. What's wrong with that?
But of course fair reactions were beyond hope. :-)
Living Room: Squeezelite - WDM-KS/HDMI - NAD M51 (Rowen Swiss Edition)
- Rowen Absolute MONO - Quad 22L
Sleeping Room: Radio
couldn't resist. :-)
Living Room: Squeezelite - WDM-KS/HDMI - NAD M51 (Rowen Swiss Edition)
- Rowen Absolute MONO - Quad 22L
Sleeping Room: Radio
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post. Maybe I should have read the whole thread more carefully.
Living Room: Squeezelite - WDM-KS/HDMI - NAD M51 (Rowen Swiss Edition)
- Rowen Absolute MONO - Quad 22L
Sleeping Room: Radio
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I have a question for you guys: ralphpnj, Julf, Mnyb, Archimago, mlsstl
(order is not important)
Do you think you are able to discern Diet Coke and Coke?
Almost everyone claims to be able to identify them but the majority
can't. Many tests have proven this.
But I can. Here I stand; I can do
ralphpnj wrote:
I haven't had a Coke or Diet Coke in over 30 years so I don't care
because as far as I'm concerned they are both poison.
True, that's why I'm listening to classical music.
Quad's Profile:
garym wrote:
but a FLAC, ALAC, WAV, etc file are all decoded to the same bits as they
enter the DAC. A diet coke and regular coke are NOT bit perfect (my
chemistry colleagues can tell me how the makeup is NOT identical). We
may not typically be able to tell a difference, but if we can tell
Archimago wrote:
BTW, what did they do to the NAD to make it Rowen Swiss?
Basically they replaced the analogue output circuit with Mundorf gear.
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SBGK wrote:
If you are into experimenting with players then you should try my free
c++ minimalist wasapi player - MQn, it is absolutely stripped down and
optimised to produce the best sound possible, requires 64 bit intel and
64 bit windows 7 or 8. I used it with hdmi to my nad m51, but now
SoftwireEngineer wrote:
Archimago has done some great work on testing for differences in jitter.
Now all we need is a get together and do some blind testing whenever
there is even a slight difference in jitter.
I would love doing this! I invite you all to come over to my place for
an
tests
like this for themselves. Don't trust anyone but yourself. Be it
audiophools or radical rationalists. I didn't say 'trust your ears',
that certainly is not enough. But trust your own empirical observations,
which have to include some kind of objectivisation.
cheers
Quad
Wombat wrote:
To be honest i really have a problem finding a reasonable reason for a
beahviour that creates such an effect described. There comes me some
tape pre-echo to mind you could hear back in the good old days :)
Me neither, I can't find a reasonable reason. I don't like that.
Of
I still don't have an optical cable. But I A-B-testet:
- Touch - coax - M51
- foobar - HDMI - M51
The M51 has one volume control for all inputs and I couldn't measure the
db-level due to the lack of a pressure meter.
While these are not optimal double blind conditions, it still is a
controlled
Archimago wrote:
Hard to say Quad. What is the difference you're hearing?
What's the setup for the HDMI - off a graphics card, motherboard? What
computer are you using? I presume there's no sample rate conversion,
ReplayGain, or anything like that going on in foobar as garym
suggested
I'll try to put it in another way.
If played on the Touch, a piano attack sounds like if the the upper-mids
and treble appear first. After that first sound impression, the mids and
bass (and with that the sound stage) will be audible.
Played on PC, everything is together on time leading to a
Or explained as a consequence.
On the Touch I have to listen with higher volumes in order to achieve a
nice sound stage, because it is somehow overshadowed by upper-mids and
treble. With louder passages, this can lead to a slightly screaming
impression.
While on the PC, on low and high volumes
F...and of course I responded by calling the product pure BS and of
course I was dismissed with some typical audiophile mumbo jumbo...
What goes around, comes around.
Don't get me wrong, this laminar thing is marketing fuzz at its worst.
But I really think you guys sometimes overdo.
Here's a first log of this morning. Not quite as good as yesterday, but
still obvious.
I'm somehow flabbergasted.
+---+
|Filename: Roll.txt |
|Download:
Archimago wrote:
That's pretty good Quad. Wondering what settings/program you used for
MP3 encoding?
I have that album so will have a good listen to the song myself...
LAME 3.99.5 within foobar. For settings refer to the attachment.
The piano intro was easiest for me to distinguish
Here's another one. Harder but possible.
It is the infamous recording that caused discussions in the version of
HDTracks. I own the redbook version.
+---+
|Filename: Concerto.txt |
Even harder, but still discernible.
The original here is 24/192 while the MP3 is 24/48, downsampled with the
built-in foobar SRC. I might hear the donwsampling algorithm and not the
codec.
+---+
|Filename: Sor.txt
garym wrote:
Aha. You're interpreting the test results incorrectly. (You must be
thinking that a high percentage is good...in fact a high percentage
means something very different here) The log you posted indicates that
you can't distinguish between the lossy and lossess tracks. You would
garym wrote:
And without getting two bogged down in statistics, when one runs
multiple tests, the p-values have to be adjusted to account for this.
(think of the idea that one asserts he can correctly predict heads or
tails in a coin flip 10 times in a row. If one runs this test enough
garym wrote:
seems clear that you can distinguish well with this track. But you
yourself have noted why this might be the case for this particular
track. There have always been problem tracks that people can tell
differences in. And by problem track I just mean a track with
something
Archimago wrote:
True, he can distinguish the 2 tracks based on the ABX results, but as
far as I can tell, there are still too many unanswered questions... As I
suggested above, MP3 needs to be tested on CD data, not hi-res input
shoe-horned into a lossy encoder after SRC and bit-depth
garym wrote:
Ah. Ok. So to clarify, if we ignore the hires downsample track, you
tested 3 tracks and on two of them you were able to distinguish based on
ABX test. Correct?
Exactly. Not more and not less.
garym wrote:
I agree. There are people with uniquely good* hearing for these sorts
Archimago wrote:
Good post Quad.
Don't worry, I don't think in general the folks here are mean spirited
over a hobby :-)
Nice summary list. Good to see you've gone over a number of
possibilities and listened for yourself. I'm 41 now and over the years
have tried a few of the tests
DJanGo wrote:
hmm just the idea diff OS (on same Hardware can make a diff sound) is
like since i use octane booster on my lawnmower my gras is greener and
grows better
Just look around in this forum (remember, it's called Audiophile) and
you will find lots of posts about differences in OS.
It's a long time ago that I did my last comparisons. And because of the
burden of proof I didn't question the transparency of 320kbps.
But now I just re-tested. I took 5 tracks I know well and converted them
to 320kbps CBR with lame 3.99.5. Then I put the original and the MP3
together in a
garym wrote:
Impressive. But a better test would be to install the Foobar2000 ABX
component and do a regular ABX test. Try it on the same 5 tracks. (In
your test, the volume difference (even slight) could explain the ability
to pick. The ABX component will control for these things.
I just
garym wrote:
Thanks. Interesting. How many trials are you doing (10?). It is true
that some songs achieve better transparency that others. So probably it
is a good idea to do several (maybe even more than 5 and certainly try
different genres). Thanks again for going through the trouble of
garym wrote:
Excellent, can you paste in the table of the results when you do this,
with the p-values. This is more useful that saying failed or passed as
there really is no fail or pass, just a p-value on the comparisons
(hypothesis being tested). The complete table of the results of the
I've always tried to be an enlightened audiophile. I won't do double
blind tests myself because I'm too lazy, but I usually trust those tests
and I think they are a good way to find out if something is audible or
not.
I'm 36 years old and here is what I claim to be able to hear and what I
don't:
azinck3 wrote:
A similar experiment was conducted on a popular programming blog.
The introduction:
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/06/the-great-mp3-bitrate-experiment.html
The results:
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2012/06/concluding-the-great-mp3-bitrate-experiment.html
What
is unsatisfying, especially with classical music.
My setup has to be in use unchanged for a couple of weeks before I will
post further findings. Sorry.
--
Quad
Audio Room: Touch - DacMagic - Quad 77/707 - Magneplanar 1.7
Living Room: Duet - X-DACv3 - Exposure 3010 S2 - Rowen Absolute MONO
- Quad 21L
... ;-)
--
Quad
Audio Room: Touch - DacMagic - Quad 77/707 - Magneplanar 1.7
Living Room: Duet - X-DACv3 - Exposure 3010 S2 - Rowen Absolute MONO
- Quad 21L
Sleeping Room: Radio
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, I intuitively made the logo look
upwards and there where no delays (but it sounded bad anyway).
--
Quad
Audio Room: Touch - DacMagic - Quad 77/707 - Magneplanar 1.7
Living Room: Duet - X-DACv3 - Exposure 3010 S2 - Rowen Absolute MONO
- Quad 21L
Sleeping Room: Radio
, I intuitively made the logo look
upwards and there where no delays (but it sounded bad anyway).
--
Quad
Audio Room: Touch - DacMagic - Quad 77/707 - Magneplanar 1.7
Living Room: Duet - X-DACv3 - Exposure 3010 S2 - Rowen Absolute MONO
- Quad 21L
Sleeping Room: Radio
krzys;691982 Wrote:
Quad are you using a mike correction ? different corrections for
horizontal and vertical positions ? According to the previously
referenced tread
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/119164-ecm8000-orientation-speaker-measurements.html
, the FR response varies a lot
to it for a couple of minutes, I realized that
the result is much more realistic and less fatiguing than what I have
listened to for the last two years. My audio room doesn't need that
much correction.
I hope that I'm more helping than confusing...
--
Quad
Audio Room: Touch - DacMagic - Quad 77/707
%2Findex.htmei=ecdDT8-sKcKwhAfq6NHDBQusg=AFQjCNEaoVrSeEf25GW_7PBb985hcVg42Qcad=rja)).
With a correct rotation delay is quite stable at 0.00. So Phil might be
right, when he says that 5-10cm deviation from the real center doesn't
matter.
--
Quad
Audio Room: Touch - DacMagic - Quad 77/707
with ECM8000s, my
results remain pleasing...
--
Quad
Audio Room: Touch - DacMagic - Quad 77/707 - Magneplanar 1.7
Living Room: Duet - X-DACv3 - Exposure 3010 S2 - Rowen Absolute MONO
- Quad 21L
Sleeping Room: Radio
Quad's Profile: http
|
+---+
--
Quad
Audio Room: Touch - DacMagic - Quad 77/707 - Magneplanar 1.7
Living Room: Duet - X-DACv3 - Exposure 3010 S2 - Rowen Absolute MONO
- Quad 21L
Sleeping Room: Radio
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.
In my audio room the back wall with a light curtain is 1.5m away
I can't wait to do more measurements with different degrees, please
Bernt, hurry up with my new license ;-)
--
Quad
Audio Room: Touch - DacMagic - Quad 77/707 - Magneplanar 1.7
Living Room: Duet - X-DACv3 - Exposure 3010 S2
optimal listening position using RC. That's not the case (or it is more
difficult than hoped). But in an already good setup you can further
improve the listening experience without much effort. And improvements
are not subtle. That's what I have learned in the last couple of days.
--
Quad
Audio
with a
microphone stand and XLR cable. A Tascam US-122MKII works as phantom
pre amp. My target curve is the BK house curve.
A very very big thank you to Phil Leigh! I wouldn't have had the nerve
to try this out without your findings and postings.
--
Quad
Audio Room: Touch - DAC Magic - Quad77/707
. Like this I could be sure to
be on the high-end side. At the moment there is still room for
improvment (at least in my head). The analogue outs of the 122MKII with
ASIO don't sound that bad though...
--
Quad
Audio Room: Touch - DacMagic - Quad 77/707 - Magneplanar 1.7
Living Room: Duet - X
it is worth
it though... that will be my next upgrade, probably in the summer.
regards
Phil
I'm on Audiolense 2.0. As usual, please go ahead and tell us how it
sounds with XO ;-)
--
Quad
Audio Room: Touch - DacMagic - Quad 77/707 - Magneplanar 1.7
Living Room: Duet - X-DACv3 - Exposure 3010
nice one. thx
--
Quad
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Arrgh
Ignore my post #7. The only way to get it working is by following the
steps in post #5.
--
Quad
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] Disable natvie OGG Vorbis support under Settings/Advanced/File
Types
[4] Restart Squeezebox Server and tune in url
http://amp1.cesnet.cz:8000/cro-d-dur.flac
--
Quad
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--compression-level-0
--ignore-chunk-sizes -
--
Quad
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peber;460071 Wrote:
Excuse the obvious question but...how?
/Per
Try www.castudio.org/dvdaudioextractor/. Sometimes there are audio
tracks up to 24bit/96kHz on a DVD video.
--
Quad
Quad's Profile: http
)
http://wrti-ice.streamguys.net/classical-247-aacp
AACplus at 96kbps
--
Quad
CD = EAC = FLAC = SC 7.3.3 = SB Duet = DacMagic = Quad77 pre amp
= Quad707 power amp = Quad 21L speakers
Quad's Profile: http
You're welcome.
With SC 7.3.3 you no longer need a plugin for AACplus streams. It
should be transcoded automatically by your computer. It will not work on
SqueezeNetwork though.
--
Quad
CD = EAC = FLAC = SC 7.3.3 = SB Duet = DacMagic = Quad77 pre amp
= Quad707 power amp = Quad 21L speakers
. The blind
testing controversy here reminds me of the discussion between
homeopathy and conventional medicine (...which has been going on for
the last 200 years, so don't expect harmony too soon. But hope dies
last, thanks for posting!)
--
Quad
honestguv;410861 Wrote:
Can you provide an example or two?
Wait a second...
honestguv;410861 Wrote:
[...] subjectivists making incorrect statements [...] due to their
belief system.
Ha! Found one.
--
Quad
Quad's
opaqueice;410870 Wrote:
In my opinion, perceptual bias is simply a fact - it's part of what
makes us human beings.
So is expectation bias.
--
Quad
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a difference or not. I could swear that my
plain Duet sounded worse than with an external DAC. To me from the
first note on the difference was so obvious I didn't find it necessary
to do a blind test. But who knows? Maybe I would fail...
--
Quad
I just have to point at this paper:
http://jn.physiology.org/cgi/content/short/83/6/3548
What do 'objectivists' (I think I am one) say to these results? Bad
design?
Sorry if this is old stuff. I find it rather interesting.
--
Quad
really consider blind-testing scotch single
malt vs. bourbon? ;-)
--
Quad
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Phil Leigh;409699 Wrote:
...and a small counter-argument: 24/96 don't sound ANY different to
24/48...
:-)
Thats possible... never had the chance to try due to a lack of
Transporter. ;-) Maybe there some serious testing would be appropriate.
--
Quad
I can hardly imagine that there will be no big difference between a
Squeezebox and a Transporter. I do not own a Transporter but after
having upgraded my Squeezebox with an external DAC, sound quality
increased dramatically. I would expect the same from a Transporter.
--
Quad
with FLAC. But since then I have no doubts
that lossless actually is lossless...
--
Quad
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Oh, now I see. You were not talking about WAV vs. FLAC. It was
_streaming_ WAV vs. FLAC. Everything after the magic, got it...
--
Quad
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