You need to record the digital outs, not analog, or the test isn't going
to be valid.
--
andyg
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andyg;397848 Wrote:
You need to record the digital outs, not analog, or the test isn't going
to be valid.
Thanks for the observation. I had seen that, but you speak with more
authority.
All that has been proved so far is that an ADC ain't perfect! And none
is!
--
Labarum
Brian
andyg;397848 Wrote:
You need to record the digital outs, not analog, or the test isn't going
to be valid.
Andy - NOO! - totally wrong. The whole point of this is that we
already know the bitstream out of the SB3 etc is bit-perfect. What we
are trying to find out here is what happens in
Labarum;397856 Wrote:
Thanks for the observation. I had seen that, but you speak with more
authority.
All that has been proved so far is that an ADC ain't perfect! And none
is!
Nope - you are missing the point. The ADC used to record is a constant
in the process. We are looking at the
Maybe if you were recording the SB3's DAC, but you're recording the
output from the DAC in your receiver. What does this prove?
--
andyg
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andyg;397865 Wrote:
Maybe if you were recording the SB3's DAC, but you're recording the
output from the DAC in your receiver. What does this prove?
It proves that (for example) changing the spdif cable between SB and
DAC does or doesn't make a difference to what comes out of the DAC. We
know
Clearly it's not going to be possible to convince anyone in this forum.
But if you guys want to convince us that the firmware is broken, you'll
need better data.
--
andyg
andyg's Profile:
andyg;397872 Wrote:
Clearly it's not going to be possible to convince anyone in this forum.
But if you guys want to convince us that the firmware is broken, you'll
need better data.
erm - I'm not trying to do that! - my conclusions are that there is
nothing wrong with the firmware - or at
Sorry Phil, that was not directed at you. I know you are fighting the
good fight. :)
--
andyg
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On a different angle - perhaps someone could test a track via TP vs
SB3... a lot of people are asking about that and I don't have a TP
(sob)
--
Phil Leigh
You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB3 (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU)
andyg;397872 Wrote:
Clearly it's not going to be possible to convince anyone in this forum.
But if you guys want to convince us that the firmware is broken, you'll
need better data.
I didn't need convincing. I said in the beginning I hear no
difference.
And I fail to see what messing about
Labarum;397881 Wrote:
I didn't need convincing. I said in the beginning I hear no
difference.
And I fail to see what messing about with vinyl sources and and a cheap
ADC proves. How close would two digitisations of an analogue original
be? The resulting digital files would not be
)p(;397884 Wrote:
Indeed for this test I would choose to record the sb's dac output. If
there is a significant difference between 1/2 and 2/3 and this is
reproducible then firmware/sc versions can make a difference in sound
reproduction even if the output is bitperfect for all of them. This
Phil Leigh;397878 Wrote:
On a different angle - perhaps someone could test a track via TP vs
SB3... a lot of people are asking about that and I don't have a TP
(sob)
Phil - I've been following this with interest (having been flamed for
being a measurement man in the past!). My TP and decent
radish;397898 Wrote:
Phil - I've been following this with interest (having been flamed for
being a measurement man in the past!). My TP and decent sound card are
in different rooms, but I'll try and get it together some time this
week to do some tests if no-one beats me to it.
cool - I'm
at the risk of being flamed ;-)
I fail to see the validity of this testing in a true hifi context.
The device you are testing is re-digitised with an ADC. then you
compare the output digital data using the application. Well the ADC
has its own transfer function. It's probably a DAC and
DaveWr;397917 Wrote:
at the risk of being flamed ;-)
I fail to see the validity of this testing in a true hifi context.
The device you are testing is re-digitised with an ADC. then you
compare the output digital data using the application. Well the ADC
has its own transfer function.
Phil Leigh;397919 Wrote:
Dave - the reason why this logic doesn't apply is detailed in the help
file of the application.
The transfer function does NOT have to be highly transparent - it just
has to be consistent - which it is.
If you think an ADC can't capture the nuances, you have to
DaveWr;397925 Wrote:
Sorry if your ADC has a brickwall filter at 18kHz then all the various
DAC filter effects SB3, External etc will be significantly masked.
Many DACs and CD players do sound different with different filter types
applied. You are measuring through another transfer
Phil,
I agree with you trying to make facts clear. I am not trying to
protect anything.
Just good science. The point is in their help files - they are from a
frequency comparison background. They openly state you have to record
the difference, not necessarily linearly. If the difference
)p(;397978 Wrote:
And the other way around...if this method shows a difference do you
think that is significant?
peter
Assuming no funny intermodulation products created by out of band audio
in the ADC front end, then a difference should be a definite
difference!!
Dave
--
DaveWr
DaveWr;397969 Wrote:
Phil,
I agree with you trying to make facts clear. I am not trying to
protect anything.
Just good science. The point is in their help files - they are from a
frequency comparison background. They openly state you have to record
the difference, not necessarily
Stratmangler;397200 Wrote:
Having been shot at for suggesting that there are audible differences
between various versions of Squeezecenter/firmware I have kept quiet on
the subject.
Then this software was brought to my attention
http://www.libinst.com/Audio%20DiffMaker.htm
I decided
If it where down to non linked clocks then the control test would have
shown an error?
--
NealG
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Phil Leigh;397309 Wrote:
Chris - I downloaded your files and am analysing them now. What DAC did
you use?. The difference track is -70/-80db down. The noise floor
contains a lot of quantization noise (not the white noise I'd expect to
hear) - sounds like a computer program loading from a
Stratmangler;397684 Wrote:
Hi Phil
Thanks for taking up the dirty stick on this one.
The files concerned were all wav. files.
I took the fixed level analogue outputs of my DAC (Bereford 7510
6/4)into an EMU 0202 USB external ADC/DAC (quieter than the standard
in/out of the laptop).
Having been shot at for suggesting that there are audible differences
between various versions of Squeezecenter/firmware I have kept quiet on
the subject.
Then this software was brought to my attention
http://www.libinst.com/Audio%20DiffMaker.htm
I decided to download the software and have a
I'm running 7.0 now.
What version do you advice to install? (sound quality is my only
concern)
--
Manelus
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probedb;395953 Wrote:
.After all they probably paid £1000s for their systems so they know
best right? ;)
Delete systems, insert feet under their Squeezeboxes. :-)
--
mooblie
Martin at 'HeadSpin' (http://www.headspin.plus.com)
andyg;395354 Wrote:
As has been repeatedly stated in this thread, you can verify that
nothing has changed in the decoding of FLAC files if you can play an
AC3 or DTS FLAC file through to your receiver. You can also record and
compare the bits output on the SPDIF interface, but that is a bit
Hi audio_fyle
Welcome to the forum!
As you see this is an audiophiles forum and its only purpose is to get
beaten by people waiting in in the bush until you say, that you hear
any difference, when you do something else, than changing
loudspeakers.
Normaly this will end with phrases like
OK I never thought I would agree with this. But tonight I upgrade my SC
to the latest version and now my Transporter sounds broken. Piano is
sounding thin and liveless.
I have checked all the settings.
Could someone tell me how to downgrade the firmware without
reinstalling Squeezecenter?
If a change of firmware on the Squeezebox/Transporter could not possibly
change the digital output in any way, how come I hear such a difference
when I choose to decode my flac files on my server(better) vs decoding
them on my SB3(worse). This can be easily tested by changing where the
decoding
As has been repeatedly stated in this thread, you can verify that
nothing has changed in the decoding of FLAC files if you can play an
AC3 or DTS FLAC file through to your receiver. You can also record and
compare the bits output on the SPDIF interface, but that is a bit more
technical.
--
agentsmith;395301 Wrote:
OK I never thought I would agree with this. But tonight I upgrade my SC
to the latest version and now my Transporter sounds broken. Piano is
sounding thin and liveless.
I have checked all the settings.
Could someone tell me how to downgrade the firmware
Labarum;371720 Wrote:
Don't need wallpaper this time of year - just the snow screensaver.
If your system is good enough (cost a lot) you can hear each snow flake
hit the ground.
(Labarum runs)
THANKYOU. Thats what I am hearing. I thought it was old noise for
my old Turntable
Heres another Pat,
Something being just in your head makes it ASOLUTELY REAL ...to you.
And no-one can tell you different. ;-)
--
Gazjam
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Gazjam;389791 Wrote:
Something being just in your head makes it ASOLUTELY REAL ...to you.
And no-one can tell you different. ;-)
sigh
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/realism/
--
Labarum
Brian
Squeezebox 3 Classic and Virgin Cable Box
Beresford DAC TC-7510 MK6/4 - Quad 405-2
I totally agree with that Brian, thats what I was trying to say. :)
--
Gazjam
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Labarum;389807 Wrote:
sigh
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/realism/
Like most philosophical texts, snappy, to the point and with a clearly
written summary.
Darren
--
darrenyeats
SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1
Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system
darrenyeats;389893 Wrote:
Like most philosophical texts, snappy, to the point and with a clearly
written summary.
Well Cogito ergo sum or Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be
silent would be better examples of the snappy.
big cheesey grin
--
Labarum
Brian
Squeezebox 3 Classic and
Labarum;389896 Wrote:
Well Cogito ergo sum or Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be
silent would be better examples of the snappy.
big cheesey grin
They don't make them like they used to. :)
--
darrenyeats
SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1
Dell laptop - JVC
darthkringle;389650 Wrote:
In reading through this thread, I think that most of the perceived
differences come down to settings; however, being an audio purist and
being quite happy with 7.2.1, I am hesitant to move to 7.3.2 in fear of
compromising audio quality in ANY way. Am I being
Hello all. In reading through this thread, I think that most of the
perceived differences come down to settings; however, being an audio
purist and being quite happy with 7.2.1, I am hesitant to move to 7.3.2
in fear of compromising audio quality in ANY way. Am I being paranoid?
Thanks.
--
darthkringle wrote:
Am I being paranoid?
Yes. But remember, just because you are being paranoid, that doesn't
mean that they are not out to get you.
I'm listening today to the beta 7.4 stuff, and I hear no difference.
--
Pat Farrell
http://www.pfarrell.com/
Let me say it again. I can't hear any difference.
But the latest software will on the fly downsample the very few 24/96
files I have.
--
Labarum
Brian
Squeezebox 3 Classic and Virgin Cable Box
Beresford DAC TC-7510 MK6/4 - Quad 405-2 refurbished by 405man
Quart 980s German Tower
Having played more extensively with 7.3.1 in the last week, I'm now
switching permanently to 7.2.1, at least until the change is removed.
Definitely sounds worse to me. The extra brightness, whilst useful
for creating air, also results in a loss of low noise floor once my
system is warmed up.
There's been some discussion about changes in the way higher rez content
is streamed. Maybe it's related to that.
I've not read of any cause for a difference on 16/44 stuff.
Darren
--
darrenyeats
SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1
Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system
on 16/44.1 24/44.1 or 24/48 material (FLAC) there is no difference in
sound between 7.3.1 and 7.2.x. There is a difference on high res
material (24/96) - 7.3.2 and higher sounds better.
--
Phil Leigh
You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call
Hello,
In my case the change from 7.2.1 to 7.3 sounded worse (way too bright).
The update was done with SSODS OVER the old version.
BUT when i went to 7.3.1 with a clean update it sounded again like
before (almost). To confirm that i downgraded to 7.2.1.
I think, that maybe upgrading over the
I've got to and from 7.3.1 and 7.2.1 (and vice versa) a couple of times
now, and am sure that 7.3.1 sounds a little brighter.
Still mulling over whether I like the change or not.
My system usually takes a good 30 mins of use to really wake it up, and
the additional brightness is rather useful at
andynormancx;373319 Wrote:
it has been shown time and time again that you just can't trust the
human brain to not lie to you in the most inconvenient and convincing
way.
Although I like to think I've got a good ear I've had the odd humbling
experience to make me agree with your view.
Darren
It's humbling enough to concentrate and listen the same song 2 times in
a row, does it sound the same ? no. Brain at work (or not) again.
--
Mnyb
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I think Sean should do a few placebo releases and see what the folks
with ears they trust hear :)
--
mswlogo
XP Cat5 Transporter SPDIF Meridian G68 DSP6000, DSP5500HC,
DSP5000
XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian DSP5000
XP Cat5 SB3 SPDIF Meridian G91 DSP5000
'My Transporter Setup'
I've just noticed that the digital TOS sounds different from RCA digital
input. The RCA digital is fuller and TOS is a little thinner.
BTW, does your TOS cable snap into the Transporter input or just kind
of mush in and hang there?
--
wireless200
gbruzzo;373365 Wrote:
observing white swans for a lifetime does not allow us to imply that no
black swan exists - you may indeed be right.
I see black swans most mornings on my walk here in Perth, Western
Australia - but I don't have a problem with 7.3.1
Cheers
wolster
Just had a thought.
After every firmware update..shouldn't we do a Hard Reset?
This practice applies to networking equipment, computer kit, you name
it.
Any thoughts?
--
Gazjam
Gazjam's Profile:
Gazjam;376401 Wrote:
Just had a thought.
After every firmware update..shouldn't we do a Hard Reset?
This practice applies to networking equipment, computer kit, you name
it.
Any thoughts?
Probably makes sense - certainly won't hurt!
--
Phil Leigh
You want to see the
Hi OP here again,
I had said that I thought - after reinstalling, cleaning out registry
etc etc - that 7.3 sounded AT LEAST as good as 7.2.1., possibly even
better?
I had put that one down to the placebo effectbut to my ears it DID
sound tighter...with better soundstaging.
Been running it
I ran the DTS test today all OK here.
I did it when i first got my SB to ensure myself on that i can have bit
perfect transport in MY setup.
well I did it again afaik SC7.3.1 does not manipulate any bit's.
Unless you tell it to via RG or transcoding or volume control.
SPDIF data arrives at my
wireless200;372905 Wrote:
It funny I ran across this thread today. I just upgraded to 7.3 last
night and I thought my Tranporter sounded *better* than before. I have
it for a while over several SC upgrades and never had that thought
before. I briefly thought about starting a thread asking
I got quite worried when I saw this thread; I then realised that I had
noticed that the previous track didn't sound great, and the current
one, a Beethoven concerto, also was a bit rough. Panic!!!
So I checked the SC version - 7.2.1. I haven't bothered to upgrade
yet.
Then I engaged brain,
Yeah your right, you really need to listen to the same track/ set of
songs both as background music (when the brain aint really looking for
differences and actually comparing like for like).
I think a few days/weeks whatever in needed to be really sure.
Be interesting to see what you think of
This forum never fails to put a smile on my face.
--
andynormancx
Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well. What ?
I SAID ALL OF THEM !
andynormancx's Profile:
Did I make a funny?
:-)
Its not just me you know.
I trust my ears above forum opinion, much like yourself I suspect?
Technically I cant explain it. Go figure huh?
--
Gazjam
Gazjam's Profile:
I trust my ears fine. Unfortunately my ears are connected to my brain
and it has been shown time and time again that you just can't trust the
human brain to not lie to you in the most inconvenient and convincing
way.
--
andynormancx
Yes, it will. Yes, all of them. Yes, SoftSqueeze as well.
Ok,
thanks for that.
--
Gazjam
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Gazjam;373317 Wrote:
Did I make a funny?
:-)
Its not just me you know.
I trust my ears above forum opinion, much like yourself I suspect?
Technically I cant explain it. Go figure huh?
Was this a black swan?
--
gbruzzo
http://www.last.fm/user/JackieBr/
Black swan?
As in the old metaphor for something that cant exist?
I dunno mate, maybe its my brain being disconnected from my ears!
Me, and the other guys that have heard what I've heard.
Mass histeria? :-)
Thinking about it for a second, there has been a change of server
software AND a change
observing white swans for a lifetime does not allow us to imply that no
black swan exists - you may indeed be right.
--
gbruzzo
http://www.last.fm/user/JackieBr/
gbruzzo's Profile:
As in
having observed only white swans during a lifetime does not exclude the
possibility that there actually is a black one...
--
gbruzzo
http://www.last.fm/user/JackieBr/
gbruzzo's Profile:
I took today off from work. I had not spend a long day in front of the
main audio system enjoying music. I spent 5 hours listening to my
favourite music for music worshipping ritual, and playing percussion
and flute with it. I contend I would have heard if anything was off
with 7.3. I enjoyed the
NewBuyer;372415 Wrote:
I wonder if Sean or anyone else at Logitech would please comment, if
such separate Windows registry-deletion steps should really be
necessary. Are there leftover old registry entries that the SC
installer doesn't handle, and that could in fact be causing problems on
I just downgraded to 7.2 because I also noticed a degradation in sound
quality, but now I've got another problem: My AIFF files will not play.
Heck, anyone?
PS - I'm not re-encoding my files.
--
kphinney
SB3 (x2) and Transporter
Rotel RCD-1070
CIAudio DVA-2 w/ VAC-1 PS
JoLida 102B
Omega
Gazjam;372084 Wrote:
Hi Chris,
I reinstalled 7.3 earlier, this time TOTALLY deleting 7.2.1, not just
overwriting it.
I cleaned out registry entries etc etc.
If its a real issue, I suspect its not a SB firmware, sPDIF output or
anything SB related (as the guys here have pointed out), but
One thing I forgot to mention, it is a Mac I use to run SqueezeCenter. I
am in the process of migrating it to Asus EeePC, so let's see whether I
run into similar sorts of problems when upgrading versions.
--
pryamomimo
It funny I ran across this thread today. I just upgraded to 7.3 last
night and I thought my Tranporter sounded *better* than before. I have
it for a while over several SC upgrades and never had that thought
before. I briefly thought about starting a thread asking the question:
do the
don a hare suit...harebrained ?
What do you call 100 hares in a row taking a step backward ?
receding hare line
--
tomjtx
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Phil Leigh;371851 Wrote:
I'm pretty certain that that jitter (which also sounds like what was
described) hasn't increased thanks to the firmware changes... unless
the extra/different work by the CPU code is causing PSU induced jitter
on the spdif output. I think Sean already ruled out this
Gazjam;372084 Wrote:
Hi Chris,
I reinstalled 7.3 earlier, this time TOTALLY deleting 7.2.1, not just
overwriting it.
I cleaned out registry entries etc etc.
If its a real issue, I suspect its not a SB firmware, sPDIF output or
anything SB related (as the guys here have pointed out), but
One last suggestion. As someone mentioned before, it is always wise to
double check file types under the advanced tab.
--
pryamomimo
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View this
Skunk;372071 Wrote:
I would try it if I had an extra Receiver, or two Squeezeboxes, and a
DAC with two digital inputs, for a more convenient A/B. It probably
wouldn't be too much trouble for someone with a nice home theater
processor and two players using different versions of SC. Since
Thanks for that.
I'm going to reinstall 7.3 - seems daft not to?
I particularly like being able to customise the SB3 display.
Thanks for all the help guys.
--
Gazjam
Gazjam's Profile:
The default value for preamp volume control is 0. You may want to try
this setting.
--
pryamomimo
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Stratmangler;372037 Wrote:
I've tried the experiment I outlined above.
Firmware does change according to the version of Squeezecenter used,
which is good (ie 7.2.1 has firmware 113, and 7.3 has firmware 120).
There is a prompt to upload the relevant update when you shift between
sources,
And by the way, I have recently installed the 7.3 update, and so far
observe no changes in sound quality (I use Duet feeding a PS Audio
DAC). I played a couple of recordings that never fail to highlight
changes in digital sources - sound the same as before. No setting were
changed by the
hi, OP here
The idea of the default audio settings being different between
firmwares is a possibility, so could someone look at the below and tell
me if I'm set for best audio quality?
Before I install 7.3 again I'd just like to confirm some settings in
the Player Audio setup screen.
Bitrate
Stratmangler;371783 Wrote:
Not at all .
Is it possible to select source via the settings menu on 7.3 as you can
on 7.2.1 ?
If so, I can set up my laptop as a wired (to router) source on my
network and copy across some files into a music directory.
I can then switch between sources
thanks for that, I'll try that.
I had thought , though, that setting was for the analogue outputs, so
putting maximum attenuation (63) effectively shut off the analogue
ports - making for less interferannce to the spdif?
Or did you mean check that setting, as it will probably be at 0 by
Gazjam;371933 Wrote:
thanks for that, I'll try that.
I had thought , though, that setting was for the analogue outputs, so
putting maximum attenuation (63) effectively shut off the analogue
ports - making for less interferannce to the spdif?
Or did you mean check that setting, as it
My (and I believe, default) settings for flac are:
FLAC - Native
MP3 - Disabled
WAV - Flac
Most likely, you will be seeing the same. Just to double-check for the
peace of mind.
(One more by the way - I found no difference in sound quality between
sending FLAC as FLAC or WAV to the Receiver)
oh right?
What should I be looking for in there - I've just always assumed its
been fine as it is?
Its mostly FLAC I use, with some mp3s
ta.
--
Gazjam
Gazjam's Profile:
Stratmangler;372037 Wrote:
All I can say further is to try the experiment - if you can't hear a
difference then fine, use 7.3 - if you can hear a negative difference
then stick with 7.2.1 .
I would try it if I had an extra Receiver, or two Squeezeboxes, and a
DAC with two digital inputs,
Spot on, just what I was looking for.
Cheers!
--
Gazjam
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Gazjam;372084 Wrote:
Hi Chris,
...cleaning out regisrty entries etc for 7.2 THEN reinstall 7.3.
I wonder if Sean or anyone else at Logitech would please comment, if
such separate Windows registry-deletion steps should really be
necessary. Are there leftover old registry entries that the SC
Installed the latest version, updated plugins etc and settled down to
listen last night.
The sound was different.?
Nothing else had changed, but something had happened. It was subtle and
I'm open to the possibility it might be in my head LOL but it was the
same again this morning.
You're not imagining it - I found that the top end is more pronounced
and mechanical sounding.
This could in turn affect the attack on the bottom end.
I went back to 7.2.1 within a half hour.
Chris:(
--
Stratmangler
Stratmangler wrote:
You're not imagining it - I found that the top end is more pronounced
and mechanical sounding.
This could in turn affect the attack on the bottom end.
I went back to 7.2.1 within a half hour.
Hmmm, smells like an audio settings problem.
The version of the server
Robin Bowes;371485 Wrote:
Stratmangler wrote:
You're not imagining it - I found that the top end is more
pronounced
and mechanical sounding.
This could in turn affect the attack on the bottom end.
I went back to 7.2.1 within a half hour.
Hmmm, smells like an audio settings
before we get into a firmware 15 debate, perhaps someone could explain
the nature of the firmware changes from 113 to 120?
Is there anything that could explain this?
--
Phil Leigh
You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call
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