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"Isn't it better to build bridges and build on common ground than emphasize
the differences?"
That was the whole point that I was trying to make to you, as well.
On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 12:43 AM, wrote:
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>
>
>
> Well, you know guys, th
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Well, you know guys, this whole thing is rather funny: I pointed out that there
definitely is a major difference about this "najas" issue in that whereas the
Quran 9:28 clearly and explicitly says some folks are "najas", this whole
concept just does not exist in th
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I personally don't like appealing to the nabi/rasul dichotomy because, if
I'm reading this correctly, Baha'u'llah Himself acknowledges Muhammad as the
seal of *both* in one of His prayers:
Glorified art Thou, O Lord my God! I beseech Thee by Thy Chosen Ones, and by
the
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>> the love Bahais have for Islam and the
prophet and then have other Bahais argue as you do.<<
Dear Gilberto, take no offense, I would ask myself the same question, how do we
know Bahaullah is true and not a liar? How do I really know God exists,
especially when it
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On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 6:42 PM, Tim Nolan wrote:
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> Hello Gilberto,
>
>>Muhammad is the last prophet, which is something that the Bahai Faith rejects
>
> I am no scholar, so I will give only my personal non-authoritative
> understanding.
>
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I already told you I'm not interested in arguing this particular
topic. I also think it is bizarre to have Bahais swear up and down in
other parts of the thread about the love Bahais have for Islam and the
prophet and then have other Bahais argue as you do.
On Thu, Jun
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Hello Gilberto,
>Muhammad is the last prophet, which is something that the Bahai Faith rejects
I am no scholar, so I will give only my personal non-authoritative
understanding.
I think Muhammad was in fact the last nabi. In my view Baha'u'llah was of a
different cate
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1974? I heard he predict the world would end in the year 1700 of the Hijri
calendar. (2270/2271 CE)
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I didn't hear that his system "broke down," per se. Guess it depends which
source you read. However, there is one verse they felt was ina
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I didn't hear that his system "broke down," per se. Guess it depends
which source you read. However, there is one verse they felt was
inauthentic for some reason, and it happened to coincide with something
that caused their numerical system some trouble. I think they
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> Rashid Khalifa also initially attracted a flurry of initial support
> and interest from orthodox Muslim because he claimed to have
> discovered a series of mathematical "miracles" and particularly
> elegant patterns in the Quran. Eventually his system broke down and
>
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Dear Gilberto,
You still are avoiding my question. How do you know God exists? How do YOU
know Muhammad is not a liar, an imposter, a fake?
It's a simple question. The majority of the world thinks he is a fake, and the
Quran was copied from Bibles and old Arabian p
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A Baha'i who notice corruptions in all previous scriptures.
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Wait, so are you a Bahai or an atheist or what?
On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 4:23 PM, haj...@yahoo.com wrote:
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>
>> There is actually a copy of the Qur'an
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The Sufris (Arabic: سفريين) were a sect of Islam in the 7th and 8th centuries,
and a part of the Kharijites. They believe Sura 12 (Yusuf) of the Qur'an is not
an authentic Sura.
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On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Stephen Gray wrote:
> The B
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Wait, so are you a Bahai or an atheist or what?
On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 4:23 PM, haj...@yahoo.com wrote:
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>
>> There is actually a copy of the Qur'an handwritten by Imam 'Ali, the
>> cousin of the Prophet Muhammad, in a museum somewhere in
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On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 3:43 PM, Stephen Gray wrote:
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>
>
> Didn't Rashad Kalifa use Hadith to find that the Quran had false verses in
> it?
He may have referred to hadith. There are accounts of the different
pieces of the Quran being gathe
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> There is actually a copy of the Qur'an handwritten by Imam 'Ali, the cousin
> of the Prophet Muhammad, in a museum somewhere in the Middle-East, and 'Ali
> was killed some 12-15 years after the
> Prophet died. So it was not long before the Qur'an was put into writing
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Yes I am seriously honest. I have read most of the Tanakh ("Old Testament"),
and yes there are obvious contradictions in it. That doesn't bother me.
Respect is not about what you believe about other ideologies, but how you
treat people who adhere to those ideologies. I d
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He reoved the last two ayat of sura 9
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> Didn't Rashad Kalifa use Hadith to find that the Quran had false verses in
> it?
I've never heard that. My impression is that Rashid Khalifa accepted
only the authenticity of the Qur'an and rejecte
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> Didn't Rashad Kalifa use Hadith to find that the Quran had false verses in
> it?
I've never heard that. My impression is that Rashid Khalifa accepted
only the authenticity of the Qur'an and rejected hadiths altogether.
Since it is hadith which gives context to the Qur
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Didn't Rashad Kalifa use Hadith to find that the Quran had false verses in it?
Also there are Khajirites who believe that the Sura of Yusuf is fake.
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> It's a Shahih (authentic) Hadith.
> http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/
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On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Susan Maneck wrote:
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> The Quran
>> didn't plop down all at once from the sky. It grew piece by piece as
>> revelations came down. But at times it also shrunk and some texts
>> which were recited as "Quran"
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> Although the Bahai Faith does not have a Hadith tradition itself, I don't
> think there is any reason to reject hadith of Islam. I am pretty sure that
> Bahais we accept that in Islam Hadith >plays a critical role.
I think I said as much. Even the method of hadith c
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Dear Susan,
Although the Bahai Faith does not have a Hadith tradition itself, I don't think
there is any reason to reject hadith of Islam. I am pretty sure that Bahais we
accept that in Islam Hadith plays a critical role. Without hadees there are no
prayers. In fact
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The Quran
> didn't plop down all at once from the sky. It grew piece by piece as
> revelations came down. But at times it also shrunk and some texts
> which were recited as "Quran" at one point are no longer contained in
> the text nor legally binding. It would get incl
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> It's a Shahih (authentic) Hadith.
> http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/
> That's the best Hadith collection site I know.
Dear Stephen,
I think you mean Sahih. I don't doubt this hadith is considered
authentic by Sunni Mus
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Dear Gilberto good point. I think the Bab and Bahaullah use a similar principle
to abrogate the whole Islamic dispensation (ie the whole Quran) and start over
new.
>>
The basic principle is arguably in the Quran:
'None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause it t
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One book called Ulum al-Quran by Ahmad von Denffer (a Muslim) talks
about the process of collecting the Quran along with being candid
about aspects which are tricker to explain and which polemicists could
potentially exploit, exaggerate, misconstrue, etc.
I think his ta
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It's a Shahih (authentic) Hadith.
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/
That's the best Hadith collection site I know.
Also, somewhere in there's a hadith about sura 9 losing 157 verses.
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Summar
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>> Those are clearly revelational in character.
But there are other parts that are histories, short stories, poems,
proverbs which really make no claim to come from God <<
I think the whole Bible is the Word of God, including the short
stories, poems, proverbs, etc.
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>> There are parts of the Bible which begin with the words "Thus speaketh
the Lord" and which are followed by verses which very closely resemble
the saj of the Qur'an. Those are clearly revelational in character.
But there are other parts that are histories, short storie
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> Well, I disagree. I say the Bible is Completely the word of God.
> Who is God if the Bible only "contains the Word of God"?
Why would this have any impact on Who God is?
Have you ever actually read the Bible?
There are parts of the Bible which begin with the words
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>> Sorry, I thought you were Bahai. I didn't realize you were an atheist.
I actually don't care to argue about that. If you don't want to
believe, I'm not going to (or able to) force you.
<<
>> But at the end of the day, Bahais read the Quran in ways which areradically
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There are definitely historical
> examples of Bahai missionaries using hikmat to pretend to be Sufis and
> claimed Bahaullah was a Sufi Shaykh in order to get converts.
Where that has happened, it was almost never to get converts, in fact
it was done usually in areas w
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> Regarding the 19-day feast: it is open to non-Baha'is. During the
> consultation period of the 19-day feast, if a vote is going to be taken, then
> the votes of Baha'is are counted, naturally.
Dear Iskandar,
My understanding is that we are still not suppose to be i
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>> I would not say the Bible is 'completely
considered the word of God' I would say the Bible contains the Word of
God. <<
Well, I disagree. I say the Bible is Completely the word of God.
Who is God if the Bible only "contains the Word of God"?
_
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> The central message has nothing to do with the Bible.
I'm talking about the central message of the Bible, not our central message.
> So I disagree that. There are only very specific instances
> that Baha'u'llah refers to, and this does not change
> the fact that the
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> There has been a lot of recent research by acadaemic historians, Islamic
> studies scholars, Arabists, etc. into this issue. From an acadaemic point of
> view, it is not as cut and dried as >you >seem to suggest. From a belief and
> faith point of view, the Quran is
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> Are you seriously honest? You respect Christianity but think their book has
> errors in it?
> I respect Christianity and think the Bible has errors. Any responsible
academic believes that,regardless of their religion and I believed
that even when I was a Christian.
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On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 12:51 PM, Susan Maneck
> Dear Gilberto,
>
> No one is suggesting that Muslims and Baha'is believe the same things.
I think that when Bahais say they believe in the truth of Islam, that
the Quran is the word of God, that Muhammad (saaws) is the S
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> Summary: There used to be a Verse of Stoning in the Quran, but its lost.
>
Personally I think the ahadith about stoning are what got corrupted. The
Qur'an made adultery an unprovable crime by requiring four eyewitnesses to
the event itself. Even an out-of-wedlock preg
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> Are you seriously honest? You respect Christianity but think their book has
> errors in it?
I respect Christianity and think the Bible has errors. Any responsible
academic believes that,regardless of their religion and I believed
that even when I was a Christian. Wh
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On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:43 AM, wrote:
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>
>
> Much thanks, dear Gilberto for your comments.
>
> Baha'is believe that Muhammad is the last Prophet in the same sense that
> Jesus, Moses, and Baha'u'llah are the last Prophet. And the first
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> At the same time there are differences in understanding at multiple
> points. For example, you say you acknowledge the truth of Islam. And I
> accept that you are sincere. But a principle of Islam which is a
> basic part of both Sunni and Shia belief is the idea Muham
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Sorry, I thought you were Bahai. I didn't realize you were an atheist.
I actually don't care to argue about that. If you don't want to
believe, I'm not going to (or able to) force you.
On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:07 AM, haj...@yahoo.com wrote:
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On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 10:52 AM, Stephen Gray wrote:
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>
>
> I will give examples of Hadith that say the Quran was corrupted:
>
>
>
Why?
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Dear Shahram:
There has been a lot of recent research by acadaemic historians, Islamic
studies scholars, Arabists, etc. into this issue. From an acadaemic point of
view, it is not as cut and dried as you seem to suggest. From a belief and
faith point of view, the
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I will give examples of Hadith that say the Quran was corrupted:
Sahih Muslim
Book 017, Number 4194:
'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's
Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may
peace be
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Much thanks, dear Gilberto for your comments.
Baha'is believe that Muhammad is the last Prophet in the same sense that Jesus,
Moses, and Baha'u'llah are the last Prophet. And the first Prophet. It's all
explained in Baha'u'llah's "Book of Certitude" and in Khazeh's
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>> What does "atheism" do? <<
I don't care about all those isms.
Prove to me that God exists. What is your proof?
Regards,
Hajir
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On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 9:10 AM, hajmog wrote:
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>
>>> are basically positive forces in the world and make society
> better to the extent that they inspire the followers ti be better
> human beings. <<
> Dear Gilberto, I don't want to chang
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dear friends,
During the time of Muhammad(p.b.u.h),there were always writers[KATEBAN E WAHY]
with him,who would write whatever were revelated to him.They were from his
companions;and were present with him in city or abroad.One of them was Imam Ali.
He was also divinely
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On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 7:49 AM, Tim Nolan wrote:
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>
> I was brought up as a Catholic, and now I am a Baha'i. When I was a
> Catholic boy, I was taught
> to despise Muhammad and to look on the Qur'an as a strange book that should
> be avoid
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Shoghi Effendi, 1933 - "...the blessed Name of the Ancient Beauty, namely B and
H Thus whatever is hidden in the inmost essence of the third letter of His
blessed Namewill gradually be unfolded before the eyes of all men."
Universal House of Justice, 1992 - "He
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>> are basically positive forces in the world and make society
better to the extent that they inspire the followers ti be better
human beings. <<
Dear Gilberto, I don't want to change your mind. This is a pretty picture.
But pretty isn't always good.
1. To me, thi
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Thank you very much dear Dr. Hai.
Warm regards,
Firouz
On 23/6/2010 10:29 PM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. wrote:
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>
> http://bahai-library.com/bsr/bsr09/9H2_comp_hiddenwords.htm and
> scroll down to the Persian Hidden Words number 77.
>
>
> On Wed
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That's nice and positive and I can agree with it, dear Gilberto.
Best regards,
Iskandar
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
-Original Message-
From: Gilberto Simpson
Sender: Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 08:37:45
To: Baha'i Studies
Reply-T
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Like I said elsewhere I think all those religions (including the Bahai
faith) are basically positive forces in the world and make society
better to the extent that they inspire the followers ti be better
human beings. But there are also points of disagreement in the mix.
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I was brought up as a Catholic, and now I am a Baha'i. When I was a
Catholic boy, I was taught
to despise Muhammad and to look on the Qur'an as a strange book that should be
avoided.
Now *because* of accepting Baha'i teachings, I believe Muhammad was a
Messenger of
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>> Yes, I respect most religions, even some of the nature-based quasi Pagan
>> ones <<
Are you seriously honest? You respect Christianity but think their book has
errors in it? Is that really respectful? What that means is that you believe
in "another Christianit
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Thanks. Gilberto's point was that when a Baha'i says s/he has "respect for
Islam, honors the Prophet, and regards the Quran as the Word of God", this is
very very different (according to Gilberto) from when a Muslim has "respect for
Islam, honors the Prophet, and r
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On 23 Jun 2010 at 21:47, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
> ...I think another part of it is built into Bahai theology and if
> there were nothing wrong with Islam and Muslims then there wouldn't be
> anything special about being Bahai.
I don't experience it that way at all. I
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