Nick Arnett wrote:
> You are aware, surely, that tremendous regime changes have taken
> place without wars? The most recent example is South Africa.
I agree with that example.
> Perhaps closer to your heart would be a certain enormous former
> British colony with a primarily Hindu population?
Agai
In a message dated 4/6/2005 11:41:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> I denigrate the "rich
> white liberals" who made this decision because they're
> the people who, consistently, make self-flattering
> decisions that (in this case) have led to hundreds of
> thousands, maybe
On Apr 7, 2005, at 3:12 PM, maru wrote:
Warren Ockrassa wrote:
On Apr 7, 2005, at 2:50 PM, maru wrote:
'marginally-relevant texts'?
An example please; So far I've only seen various perversions of the
Bible
(Unless you count Mel Gibson using the ravings of a delirious German
nun
in his /Passion/.)
At 04:50 PM Thursday 4/7/2005, maru wrote:
Warren Ockrassa wrote:
On Apr 5, 2005, at 12:34 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Apr 4, 2005, at 1:14 PM, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
This is one of the problems with most of the modern interpretations of
the Gospels. Where Iasus was being metaphorical, he is ta
At 04:57 PM Thursday 4/7/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
On Apr 7, 2005, at 2:50 PM, maru wrote:
I sure hope there is an antidote. American Christianity is rapidly
beginning to resemble Middle East Islam. Both in the sense of insistence
on hardline radical fundamentalism steeped in narrow interpreta
At 06:40 PM Thursday 4/7/2005, Martin Lewis wrote:
On Apr 7, 2005 12:25 AM, Gautam Mukunda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Except, of course, that's not true.
> >
> > http://www.who.int/malaria/vectorcontrol.html
> >
> > Nice smear though.
>
> And we refuse to fund DDT usage why, exactly? The
>
At 08:59 PM Thursday 4/7/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
On Apr 7, 2005, at 3:12 PM, maru wrote:
Warren Ockrassa wrote:
On Apr 7, 2005, at 2:50 PM, maru wrote:
'marginally-relevant texts'?
An example please; So far I've only seen various perversions of the Bible
(Unless you count Mel Gibson using the
Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
>
> I am not a fertility specialist, nor do I play one on TV, but even I
> can think of ways to implant a fertilized egg in a woman's uterus
> without her having ever had sexual intercourse and while leaving her
> a _virgo intacta_ to examination.
>
There was a case years a
Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
At 08:59 PM Thursday 4/7/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
Not really. Virgin conception is impossible,
I am not a fertility specialist, nor do I play one on TV, but even I can
think of ways to implant a fertilized egg in a woman's uterus without
her having ever had sexual in
Dave wrote:
On Apr 7, 2005, at 5:36 PM, Nick Arnett wrote:
And what about South Africa and India? Are they not examples of regime
changes that were accomplished without war? Today, are we open to such
possibilities, which seemed impossible to most people before they
happened?
I don't remember ou
- Original Message -
From: "Doug Pensinger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion"
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: The Other Christianity (was Re: Babble theory, and comments)
> Dave wrote:
>
> > On Apr 7, 2005, at 5:
Nick Arnett wrote:
On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 15:01:52 -0700 (PDT), Gautam Mukunda wrote
It means that there wasn't a third option between
going to war to remove Hussein and leaving him in
power. It didn't exist. No one proposed one that was
even vaguely plausible. You could choose one or the
other.
R
Julia wrote:
It's a lovely idea. I'm not sure it was realistically possible. If it
had been, it would have been the best course of action I've seen
suggested. But I'm not sure it was.
In fact, I'm pretty sure it wasn't. I'd appreciate feedback on this by
those more in the know than I. (And
Dan wrote:
The question at hand originally was whether anything but invasion would
topple Hussein. It seems pretty clear to me that he would stay in power
for the foreseeable future, since 11 years of sanctions and inspections
did not push him out. At the time, if you remember, I thought that w
On Apr 7, 2005, at 8:28 PM, Robert Seeberger wrote:
Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
I am not a fertility specialist, nor do I play one on TV, but even I
can think of ways to implant a fertilized egg in a woman's uterus
without her having ever had sexual intercourse and while leaving her
a _virgo intacta_ t
On Apr 7, 2005, at 7:49 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
At 08:59 PM Thursday 4/7/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
though there's some wiggle room there -- IIRC the original text had
it as "behold, a young woman shall conceive".
Which is correct, afaik.
And hardly remarkable. Young women conceive pretty
On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 20:58:36 -0700, Doug Pensinger wrote
> I think declarations that our only choice was invasion ignores the
> success of the inspections; not only those just prior to that event
> but the earlier ones that we now know ended all of Hussein's WMD programs.
That is a rather good
--- Dave Land <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Apr 7, 2005, at 5:36 PM, Nick Arnett wrote:
>
> > And what about South Africa and India? Are they
> not examples of regime
> > changes that were accomplished without war?
> Today, are we open to such
> > possibilities, which seemed impossible to most
--- Nick Arnett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 18:38:03 -0500, Dan Minette wrote
> I wasn't talking about arresting him, I was talking
> about inspections.
Inspecting what? His children's prisons? You're
conflating two issues. I was talking about the
humanitarian case towards S
On Apr 7, 2005, at 10:40 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote:
_There's nothing wrong with
opposing the war_. Knowing what I know now about the
competence of the Administration, I don't think _I_
would have supported the war (not knowing then what I
know now, I don't regret my stance then - it was
impossible
--- Warren Ockrassa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If there's nothing wrong with opposing the
> unjustifiable attack on
> Iraq, why are you so committed to twisting the tits
> of everyone who
> does oppose it?
Because so many of them say things like calling it
"unjustifiable", when, of course, it
On Apr 7, 2005, at 11:07 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote:
--- Warren Ockrassa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If there's nothing wrong with opposing the
unjustifiable attack on
Iraq, why are you so committed to twisting the tits
of everyone who
does oppose it?
Because so many of them say things like calling i
At 12:10 AM Friday 4/8/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
On Apr 7, 2005, at 7:49 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
At 08:59 PM Thursday 4/7/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
though there's some wiggle room there -- IIRC the original text had it
as "behold, a young woman shall conceive".
Which is correct, afaik.
At 10:58 PM Thursday 4/7/2005, Julia Thompson wrote:
Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
At 08:59 PM Thursday 4/7/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
Not really. Virgin conception is impossible,
I am not a fertility specialist, nor do I play one on TV, but even I can
think of ways to implant a fertilized egg in a w
At 12:04 AM Friday 4/8/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
On Apr 7, 2005, at 8:28 PM, Robert Seeberger wrote:
Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
I am not a fertility specialist, nor do I play one on TV, but even I
can think of ways to implant a fertilized egg in a woman's uterus
without her having ever had sexual i
At 12:52 AM Friday 4/8/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
On Apr 7, 2005, at 10:40 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote:
_There's nothing wrong with
opposing the war_. Knowing what I know now about the
competence of the Administration, I don't think _I_
would have supported the war (not knowing then what I
know now
At 01:28 AM Friday 4/8/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
Why didn't we focus on doing that in Afghanistan first? I think it's
because -- and this is really important -- Iraq was sexier. GWB would be
able to finish what Daddy was unable to see to fruition. That's the
elephant in the room very few cons
On Apr 7, 2005, at 11:45 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
At 12:04 AM Friday 4/8/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
Sigh. Reproduction via union of sperm and egg is sex. It's not
meaningful to speak of an asexual pregnancy, and it's impossible for
artificial insemination techniques to have existed 2K years
On Apr 7, 2005, at 11:47 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
At 12:10 AM Friday 4/8/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
And the epistles of Paul, while effective at establishing and
maintaining the infant cult of Iasus, read like a lot of hard-right
propaganda, which to me is more or less what they are.
Revel
On Apr 8, 2005 3:21 AM, Ronn!Blankenship <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > And we refuse to fund DDT usage why, exactly? The
> > > environmental movement has (and, in fact, continues
> > > to) push for a worldwide ban on DDT usage
> > > because...I'm sure you'll explain it to me, Martin.
> >
> >
On Apr 7, 2005, at 10:10 PM, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
> On Apr 7, 2005, at 7:49 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
>> At 08:59 PM Thursday 4/7/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
>>> though there's some wiggle room there -- IIRC the original text had it
>>> as "behold, a young woman shall conceive".
>> Which is co
At 02:08 AM Friday 4/8/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
On Apr 7, 2005, at 11:47 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
At 12:10 AM Friday 4/8/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
And the epistles of Paul, while effective at establishing and
maintaining the infant cult of Iasus, read like a lot of hard-right
propagand
On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 22:28:38 -0700 (PDT), Gautam Mukunda wrote
...
> What you are talking about is a slow
> and uncertain process.
Compared to what? The speedy and certain process underway in Iraq???
Nick
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo
- Original Message -
From: "Ronn!Blankenship" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion"
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: The Other Christianity (was Re: Babble theory, and comments)
> At 10:58 PM Thursday 4/7/2005, Julia Thompson wro
On Apr 8, 2005 10:16 AM, Dan Minette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Raymond Brown, in the "Birth of The Messiah" argues that this is a
> reasonable scenario. He discusses the theological reasons for including
> virgin birth in the infancy narratives...and thinks that they are not very
> convincing.
... a strong consensus that nothing short of war would force
Hussain out.
Please remember that as of 17 Feb 2003, when I posted to the Brin
List, the US government did not argue anyone should
... help the people of Iraq free themselves from a cruel
dictatorship.
During a l
- Original Message -
From: "Maru Dubshinki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion"
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: The Other Christianity (was Re: Babble theory, and comments)
> On Apr 8, 2005 10:16 AM, Dan Minette <[EMAI
- Original Message -
From: "Dan Minette" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion"
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: The Other Christianity (was Re: Babble theory, and comments)
>
> Well, the argument that the virgin birth
On Apr 8, 2005, at 12:55 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Apr 7, 2005, at 10:10 PM, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
And hardly remarkable. Young women conceive pretty regularly.
Embedding
such a phrase in a prophecy is a little like predicting rain in
Seattle.
I think your "lay scholarship" isn't serving
On Apr 8, 2005, at 5:46 AM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
At 02:08 AM Friday 4/8/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
It is interesting that you are much more likely to state things as
absolutes than most people I know who do claim to have the sure word
of God on issues.
Well, when arguing facts, I tend to do
On Apr 8, 2005, at 9:40 AM, Dan Minette wrote:
Personally, I could be persuaded either way on this question. One
could
indeed argue that someone who's knowledge of Isaiah is from the
Septuagint
and who is aware of the other virgin birth narratives could weave this
into
the tradition relied upon
- Original Message -
From: "Doug Pensinger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion"
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 11:56 PM
Subject: Re: The Other Christianity (was Re: Babble theory, and comments)
> Dan wrote:
>
>
> My point was (howev
- Original Message -
From: "Nick Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion"
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: The Other Christianity (was Re: Babble theory, and comments)
> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 18:38:03 -0500, Dan Minette wrote
On Apr 8, 2005, at 3:01 PM, Dan Minette, voice of reason, wrote:
The main point that Gautam seems to be arguing is that whether or not
to
go to war in Iraq was a point that reasonable moral people can differ
on. Words like "unjustifiable" tend to indicate that such a stand is
impossible for a reas
At 06:17 PM Friday 4/8/2005, Dave Land wrote:
On Apr 8, 2005, at 3:01 PM, Dan Minette, voice of reason, wrote:
The main point that Gautam seems to be arguing is that whether or not to
go to war in Iraq was a point that reasonable moral people can differ
on. Words like "unjustifiable" tend to indica
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 18:03:39 -0500, Dan Minette wrote
> OK, let's talk about medical policy then. According to UN figures,
> tens if not hundreds of thousands were dying in Iraq due to
> conditions under Hussein. The war
Did you leave that for me to finish?
... has increased the death rate dr
Warren Ockrassa wrote:
> On Apr 7, 2005, at 8:28 PM, Robert Seeberger wrote:
>
>> Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
>>>
>>> I am not a fertility specialist, nor do I play one on TV, but even
>>> I
>>> can think of ways to implant a fertilized egg in a woman's uterus
>>> without her having ever had sexual in
On Apr 8, 2005, at 6:19 PM, Robert Seeberger wrote:
Warren Ockrassa wrote:
Sigh. Reproduction via union of sperm and egg is sex. It's not
meaningful to speak of an asexual pregnancy, and it's impossible for
artificial insemination techniques to have existed 2K years ago.
Sure, this is readily appa
On Apr 8, 2005, at 4:17 PM, Dave Land wrote:
I wonder if we couldn't have more effective discussions here if we said
things like "I couldn't find a compelling justification the invasion"
instead of "the invasion was unjustified."
The former asserts one's own observation, not subject to contradictio
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 20:45:22 -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote
> There's a big difference between a young woman and a virgin.
More with some than with others...
Dave
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
--- Dave Land <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Apr 7, 2005, at 3:01 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote:
> Substantial long-term support for the internal
> opposition
> to Hussein would have been a third say: neither
> "going to
> war" nor "leaving him in power." At the very least,
> we
> would have avoided be
--- Nick Arnett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 22:28:38 -0700 (PDT), Gautam
> Mukunda wrote
> > What you are talking about is a slow
> > and uncertain process.
>
> Compared to what? The speedy and certain process
> underway in Iraq???
>
> Nick
Relative to the two hundred year
At 02:18 AM Saturday 4/9/2005, Dave Land wrote:
On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 20:45:22 -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote
> There's a big difference between a young woman and a virgin.
More with some than with others...
Dave
I was tempted to respond but managed to resist . . .
--Ronn! :)
- Original Message -
From: "Warren Ockrassa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion"
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: The Other Christianity (was Re: Babble theory, and
comments)
> On Apr 8, 2005, at 6:19 PM, Robert Seeberger wrot
- Original Message -
From: "Nick Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion"
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 7:59 PM
Subject: Re: The Other Christianity (was Re: Babble theory, and comments)
>
> > I didn't see analysis of what wou
- Original Message -
From: "Warren Ockrassa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion"
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: The Other Christianity (was Re: Babble theory, and comments)
On Apr 8, 2005, at 4:17 PM, Dave Land wrote:
>&
Nick Arnett wrote
Korea is about the worst example to pick, since it looked far more
like an undeclared war than a police action.
If I remember my history rightly, senior members of the US government
thought that the initial part of the Korean war was a feint. They
thought that WWIII wou
At 06:41 AM 4/8/2005 -0700, Nick Arnett wrote:
>> What you are talking about is a slow
>> and uncertain process.
>
>Compared to what? The speedy and certain process underway in Iraq???
I would say compared to North Korea, where the sorts of policies you
advocate resulted in the DPRK constructin
At 10:19 PM 4/7/2005 -0700, Nick wrote:
>> I think declarations that our only choice was invasion ignores the
>> success of the inspections; not only those just prior to that event
>> but the earlier ones that we now know ended all of Hussein's WMD programs.
>
>That is a rather good point that I'
On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 18:04:35 -0400, JDG wrote
> Just imagine how history might have been different if Saddam Hussein
> had simply waited two or three more years or so, and asserted his
> claim to Kuwait *after* acquiring nuclear weapons - and then began
> to talk about securing the Muslim Holy
On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 18:21:58 -0400, JDG wrote
> Note that this resolution requires these things to be destroyed,
> removed, or rendered harmless under international supervision.
> This was to ensure that Iraq could never use the suspicion that it
> had chemical or biological weapons to again
--- Nick Arnett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 18:04:35 -0400, JDG wrote
>
> > Just imagine how history might have been different
> if Saddam Hussein
> > had simply waited two or three more years or so,
> and asserted his
> > claim to Kuwait *after* acquiring nuclear weapons
>
At 10:46 PM 4/9/2005 -0700, Nick wrote:
>On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 18:21:58 -0400, JDG wrote
>
>> Note that this resolution requires these things to be destroyed,
>> removed, or rendered harmless under international supervision.
>> This was to ensure that Iraq could never use the suspicion that it
>
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 00:07:33 -0700 (PDT), Gautam Mukunda wrote
> That's a remarkable statement, given that the UN
> inspectors after 1991 reported that he was within a
> couple of years (probably less) of having a
> functioning nuclear device.
Are you saying that he was actively working on someth
- Original Message -
From: "Nick Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion"
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: The Other Christianity (was Re: Babble theory, and comments)
> On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 00:07:33 -0700 (PDT), Gautam
> ... asserted his claim to Kuwait *after* acquiring nuclear weapons -
> and then began to talk about securing the Muslim Holy Land as leader
> of the Arab people
What nuclear weapons? He wasn't building any.
On the contrary, Saddam Hussein's government was actively working o
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:28:20 -0500, Dan Minette wrote
> I hope you would accept the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists as a reasonable
> Source:
>
> http://www.iraqwatch.org/perspectives/bas-iraq-rules-nuke-8-91.htm
You want me to accept a report from 1991 to tell me if Iraq was actively
building nu
Here, John is right:
... the purpose of inspections is to assure the rest of the world
that Iraq did not retain any WMD stockpiles or programs. This
assurance was impossible to make under the inspections.
In January 2003, I read Blix's report on the inspections. While he
did not rep
At 04:32 PM 4/10/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:28:20 -0500, Dan Minette wrote
>
>> I hope you would accept the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists as a reasonable
>> Source:
>>
>> http://www.iraqwatch.org/perspectives/bas-iraq-rules-nuke-8-91.htm
>
>You want me to accept a report from 1
- Original Message -
From: "Nick Arnett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion"
Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: The Other Christianity (was Re: Babble theory, and comments)
> On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:28:20 -0500, Dan Minette wrote
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:08:25 + (UTC), Robert J. Chassell wrote
> > ... asserted his claim to Kuwait *after* acquiring nuclear
> weapons -> and then began to talk about securing the Muslim Holy
> Land as leader> of the Arab people
>
> What nuclear weapons? He wasn't building
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 19:42:19 -0400, JDG wrote
> Before reacting so indignantly, perhaps you aught to re-examine the context
> of this particular line of discussion.
I did not intend indignance. I had no idea you weren't talking about the war
in which we are presently entangled. That's what I h
On Apr 9, 2005, at 8:06 AM, Robert Seeberger wrote:
From: "Warren Ockrassa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sure, this is readily apparent to *us*, but back then any pregnancy
in
concert with an intact hymen would be considered miraculous.
How much knowledge of a hymen was there ca. 2K years ago, though? I
me
> On the contrary, Saddam Hussein's government was actively
> working on them. That is why some people were worried in 2002
> -- they really did not think that Saddam Hussein was lying when
> he claimed to be continuing the effort.
And we haven't found evidence of this, two ye
On Apr 9, 2005, at 11:04 AM, Dan Minette wrote:
From: "Warren Ockrassa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Well, why though? Isn't everything we state that is less than 100%
provable an opinion? Isn't it valid to read in the phrase "In my
opinion..." before any declaration, at least of values or judgments?
Obvi
- Original Message -
From: "Warren Ockrassa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion"
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: The Other Christianity (was Re: Babble theory, and comments)
> On Apr 9, 2005, at 11:04 AM, Dan Minette wrote:
Robert J. Chassell wrote:
If the Iraqi government had waited until it had nuclear weapons, Iraq
might well have become the first country since 1945 to annex all of
another country successfully (country as recognized by the UN as a
1648 `Treaty of Westfalia' type of country, not as a `protocol state
On 5 Apr 2005, at 2:59 pm, Nick Arnett wrote:
On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 10:48:50 +0100, William T Goodall wrote
But the fundamentalists are the fastest growing Christian sects.
I see this as part of a trend that goes far beyond Christianity and
far beyond
religion. Fundamentalism of all sorts is on the
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:59:15 +0100, William T Goodall wrote
> I think there is room for a twelve-step theology that weans people
> off religion and helps them fend off its malign and pernicious
> influence thereafter.
That would be, um, difficult, since 12-step programs are spiritual in nature.
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:59:15 +0100, William T Goodall wrote
> I think there is room for a twelve-step theology that weans people
> off religion and helps them fend off its malign and pernicious
> influence thereafter.
That would be, um, difficult, since 12-step programs are spiritual in nature.
On Apr 12, 2005, at 1:57 PM, Dan Minette wrote:
From: "Warren Ockrassa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
But, the words actually do mean different things. Let me make two
statements I consider true about Iraq and one that I consider false.
The actions of Hussein against his own people were unjustifiable
Geor
On Apr 13, 2005, at 9:21 AM, Nick Arnett wrote:
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:59:15 +0100, William T Goodall wrote
I think there is room for a twelve-step theology that weans people
off religion and helps them fend off its malign and pernicious
influence thereafter.
That would be, um, difficult, since 12-
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:29:04 -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote
> Often, yeah. "Higher Power" and all that. IIRC the AA programs end
> with "The Lord's Prayer" too.
Typically, but there are many meetings that use the Serenity Prayer to
accomodate people who are uncomfortable with one particular relig
On Apr 13, 2005, at 1:06 PM, Nick Arnett wrote:
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:29:04 -0700, Warren Ockrassa wrote
Often, yeah. "Higher Power" and all that. IIRC the AA programs end
with "The Lord's Prayer" too.
Typically, but there are many meetings that use the Serenity Prayer to
accomodate people who are
At 12:06 PM Wednesday 4/13/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
I don't see a difference, at least not a functional one, between the
statements "The Iraq war is unjustifiable" and the *debate-style*
"Resolved: The Iraq war is unjustifiable. Discuss."
How about, "In my personal opinion, the Iraq war is u
Warren Ockrassa wrote:
2. Many times it seems to me that 12-step programs really substitute one
addiction (to [substance]) for another (to the program).
This doesn't really solve the problem. It doesn't strike at the root,
the source of the addiction. It simply replaces one behavior with
anothe
> If the Iraqi government had waited until it had nuclear weapons,
> Iraq might well have become the first country since 1945 to
> annex all of another country successfully (country as recognized
> by the UN as a 1648 `Treaty of Westfalia' type of country, not
> as a `protocol s
On Apr 13, 2005, at 3:12 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
At 12:06 PM Wednesday 4/13/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
I don't see a difference, at least not a functional one, between the
statements "The Iraq war is unjustifiable" and the *debate-style*
"Resolved: The Iraq war is unjustifiable. Discuss."
H
The trouble I have with 12-step programs is twofold. ...
1. The "Admit you are powerless" clause, particularly in
conjunction with the "Higher Power" idea.
30 or 40 years ago, Charles Hampden-Turner (in, I think, "The Delancy
Street Asylum") said, if I remember rightly, that many peo
- Original Message -
From: "Warren Ockrassa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion"
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: The Other Christianity (was Re: Babble theory, and comments)
> > But, they are very different opinio
Dan Minette wrote:
Well, if you honestly feel that you are capable enough to set the standards
to know that a Soro's fellow working in international relations is making
unreasonable arguements that are impossible to support, I guess you need to
say that. But, I guess I am not as convinced by my s
- Original Message -
From: "Julia Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion"
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: The Other Christianity (was Re: Babble theory, and comments)
> Dan Minette wrote:
>
> > Well, if
Dan Minette wrote:
- Original Message -
From: "Julia Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs Discussion"
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: The Other Christianity (was Re: Babble theory, and comments)
Dan Minette wrote:
Well, if you
On Apr 13, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Dan Minette wrote:
From: "Warren Ockrassa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
But, they are very different opinionsone claims that the people
one is
differing with are ignorant, unable or unwilling to use reason, or of
ill
will; while the other is a statement about one's own best
On Apr 13, 2005, at 4:51 PM, Julia Thompson wrote:
Warren Ockrassa wrote:
2. Many times it seems to me that 12-step programs really substitute
one addiction (to [substance]) for another (to the program).
This doesn't really solve the problem. It doesn't strike at the root,
the source of the addic
On Apr 13, 2005, at 6:08 PM, Robert J. Chassell wrote:
The trouble I have with 12-step programs is twofold. ...
1. The "Admit you are powerless" clause, particularly in
conjunction with the "Higher Power" idea.
30 or 40 years ago, Charles Hampden-Turner (in, I think, "The Delancy
Stree
At 07:23 PM Wednesday 4/13/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
On Apr 13, 2005, at 3:12 PM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
At 12:06 PM Wednesday 4/13/2005, Warren Ockrassa wrote:
I don't see a difference, at least not a functional one, between the
statements "The Iraq war is unjustifiable" and the *debate-style
At 06:51 PM Wednesday 4/13/2005, Julia Thompson wrote:
Warren Ockrassa wrote:
2. Many times it seems to me that 12-step programs really substitute one
addiction (to [substance]) for another (to the program).
This doesn't really solve the problem. It doesn't strike at the root, the
source of the a
At 09:44 PM Wednesday 4/13/2005, Julia Thompson wrote:
Dan Minette wrote:
Well, if you honestly feel that you are capable enough to set the standards
to know that a Soro's fellow working in international relations is making
unreasonable arguements that are impossible to support, I guess you need t
On Apr 14, 2005, at 6:02 AM, Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
Okay, how about the shorter version: "I could be wrong, but I think
the war in Iraq is unjustifiable because . . . "
Of course, since it seems that the whole point of 99+% of such
discussions on any topic, whether OL or in RL, is for the spea
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