Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-07-02 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling
On Monday, 1 July 2013 at 17:45:59 UTC, Joakim wrote: Then they should choose a mixed license like the Mozilla Public License or CDDL, which keeps OSS files open while allowing linking with closed source files within the same application. If they instead chose a license that allows closing all

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-07-02 Thread John Colvin
On Tuesday, 2 July 2013 at 14:40:42 UTC, Joakim wrote: You're really splitting hairs at this point. If you _allow_ almost anything, as most permissive licenses like the BSD or MIT license do, nobody is going to then ask permission of the community for every possible thing they might do, to see

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-07-02 Thread Joakim
On Tuesday, 2 July 2013 at 09:59:19 UTC, John Colvin wrote: This is all a bit moot as I was making a general point, not specifically related to BSD. However, in their case, I think it is perfectly fine that some don't like closed source personally, but as a group they decide to endorse it. A gr

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-07-02 Thread John Colvin
On Tuesday, 2 July 2013 at 05:21:35 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Monday, 1 July 2013 at 21:29:21 UTC, John Colvin wrote: On Monday, 1 July 2013 at 17:45:59 UTC, Joakim wrote: I wouldn't call closing source that they legally allowed to be closed antisocial. I'd call their contradictory, angry respons

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-07-02 Thread Iain Buclaw
On 1 July 2013 18:45, Joakim wrote: >> In other cases there may be a broad community consensus that builds up >> around a piece of software, that this work should be shared and contributed >> to as a common good (e.g. X.org). Attempts to close it up violate those >> social norms and are rightly s

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-07-02 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling
On Monday, 1 July 2013 at 21:20:39 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 7/1/2013 2:04 PM, Brad Roberts wrote: Actually, Boost was specifically chosen because it didn't require attribution when redistributing. If BSD hadn't had that clause we probably would be using it instead. That was indeed anothe

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-07-02 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling
On Sunday, 30 June 2013 at 03:29:06 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 6/29/2013 5:08 AM, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: True, distribution was mainly by physical mail. There was some via BBS's and Usenet, but these were severely limited by bandwidth. I'd receive bug reports by fax, paper listings,

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-07-01 Thread Joakim
On Monday, 1 July 2013 at 21:29:21 UTC, John Colvin wrote: On Monday, 1 July 2013 at 17:45:59 UTC, Joakim wrote: I wouldn't call closing source that they legally allowed to be closed antisocial. I'd call their contradictory, angry response to what their license permits antisocial. :) Just be

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-07-01 Thread Walter Bright
On 7/1/2013 2:29 PM, John Colvin wrote: On Monday, 1 July 2013 at 17:45:59 UTC, Joakim wrote: I wouldn't call closing source that they legally allowed to be closed antisocial. I'd call their contradictory, angry response to what their license permits antisocial. :) Just because you're doing s

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-07-01 Thread John Colvin
On Monday, 1 July 2013 at 17:45:59 UTC, Joakim wrote: I wouldn't call closing source that they legally allowed to be closed antisocial. I'd call their contradictory, angry response to what their license permits antisocial. :) Just because you're doing something legal doesn't mean you're not

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-07-01 Thread Walter Bright
On 7/1/2013 2:04 PM, Brad Roberts wrote: On 7/1/13 11:42 AM, Walter Bright wrote: On 7/1/2013 10:45 AM, Joakim wrote: Then they should choose a mixed license like the Mozilla Public License or CDDL, which keeps OSS files open while allowing linking with closed source files within the same appli

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-07-01 Thread Brad Roberts
On 7/1/13 11:42 AM, Walter Bright wrote: On 7/1/2013 10:45 AM, Joakim wrote: Then they should choose a mixed license like the Mozilla Public License or CDDL, which keeps OSS files open while allowing linking with closed source files within the same application. If they instead chose a license t

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-07-01 Thread Walter Bright
On 7/1/2013 10:45 AM, Joakim wrote: Then they should choose a mixed license like the Mozilla Public License or CDDL, which keeps OSS files open while allowing linking with closed source files within the same application. If they instead chose a license that allows closing all source, one can onl

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-07-01 Thread Joakim
On Monday, 1 July 2013 at 10:15:34 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: On Sunday, 30 June 2013 at 19:45:06 UTC, Joakim wrote: OK, glad to hear that you wouldn't be against it. You'd be surprised how many who use permissive licenses still go nuts when you propose to do exactly what the license

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-07-01 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling
On Sunday, 30 June 2013 at 19:45:06 UTC, Joakim wrote: OK, glad to hear that you wouldn't be against it. You'd be surprised how many who use permissive licenses still go nuts when you propose to do exactly what the license allows, ie close up parts of the source. Because people don't just ca

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-30 Thread CJS
Well, it is in the sense that it _is_ a deficiency of built-in AAs for those who want to be able to use different implementations for different use cases, but it's not something that can actually be fixed, and having to use a library solution isn't exactly all that bad anyway, especially when m

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-30 Thread Jonathan M Davis
On Sunday, June 30, 2013 22:45:04 Steven Schveighoffer wrote: > On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 22:02:11 -0400, Jonathan M Davis > > I know. My point was that that's an inherent problem with built-in AAs > > that > > can't be overcome (regardless of how well they're implemented). If you > > want > > that leve

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-30 Thread Steven Schveighoffer
On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 22:02:11 -0400, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Sunday, June 30, 2013 21:54:08 Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 21:43:53 -0400, Jonathan M Davis wrote: > But I think that they key issue with swapping out > the implementation is not whether you can swap out t

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-30 Thread Jonathan M Davis
On Sunday, June 30, 2013 21:59:45 Steven Schveighoffer wrote: > On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 21:43:53 -0400, Jonathan M Davis > > wrote: > > On Sunday, June 30, 2013 19:20:47 Steven Schveighoffer wrote: > >> No, the main issue is the current one is runtime-only, and so simple > >> function calls such as t

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-30 Thread Jonathan M Davis
On Sunday, June 30, 2013 21:54:08 Steven Schveighoffer wrote: > On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 21:43:53 -0400, Jonathan M Davis > > wrote: > > But I think that they key issue with swapping out > > the implementation is not whether you can swap out the implementation > > for your > > whole program but rather

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-30 Thread Steven Schveighoffer
On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 21:43:53 -0400, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Sunday, June 30, 2013 19:20:47 Steven Schveighoffer wrote: No, the main issue is the current one is runtime-only, and so simple function calls such as toHash and opCmp cannot be inlined. Yeah. That's a big problem. We really

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-30 Thread Steven Schveighoffer
On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 21:43:53 -0400, Jonathan M Davis wrote: But I think that they key issue with swapping out the implementation is not whether you can swap out the implementation for your whole program but rather being able to choose different implementations for different parts of your

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-30 Thread Jonathan M Davis
On Sunday, June 30, 2013 19:20:47 Steven Schveighoffer wrote: > On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 15:51:32 -0400, Jonathan M Davis > > wrote: > > On Sunday, June 30, 2013 21:05:41 CJS wrote: > >> In the talk Andrei seems to mentions that D's associative arrays > >> are lacking in performance somehow. I'm very

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-30 Thread Steven Schveighoffer
On Sun, 30 Jun 2013 15:51:32 -0400, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Sunday, June 30, 2013 21:05:41 CJS wrote: In the talk Andrei seems to mentions that D's associative arrays are lacking in performance somehow. I'm very new to D, but it's not obvious to me what the shortcoming is. I assume it's t

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-30 Thread Jonathan M Davis
On Sunday, June 30, 2013 21:05:41 CJS wrote: > In the talk Andrei seems to mentions that D's associative arrays > are lacking in performance somehow. I'm very new to D, but it's > not obvious to me what the shortcoming is. I assume it's that for > some reason it's hard to specialize associative arr

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-30 Thread Joakim
On Sunday, 30 June 2013 at 19:24:54 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 6/30/2013 2:50 AM, Joakim wrote: I wondered if you have any opinion on such code reuse, if someone takes your code and closes it, even if you wouldn't try to block it because you have already released it under a permissive licens

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-30 Thread Walter Bright
On 6/30/2013 2:50 AM, Joakim wrote: I wondered if you have any opinion on such code reuse, if someone takes your code and closes it, even if you wouldn't try to block it because you have already released it under a permissive license. No, I don't have an opinion on it, other than that I'd rathe

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-30 Thread CJS
In the talk Andrei seems to mentions that D's associative arrays are lacking in performance somehow. I'm very new to D, but it's not obvious to me what the shortcoming is. I assume it's that for some reason it's hard to specialize associative arrays to specfic types to give increased performanc

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-30 Thread Joakim
On Sunday, 30 June 2013 at 09:34:14 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 6/29/2013 11:39 PM, Joakim wrote: What do you think of my idea of segmenting the market though? Keep providing a free-as-in-beer dmd, like you are now, for the people who want it, while Remedy and others who want performance pay f

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-30 Thread Walter Bright
On 6/29/2013 11:39 PM, Joakim wrote: What do you think of my idea of segmenting the market though? Keep providing a free-as-in-beer dmd, like you are now, for the people who want it, while Remedy and others who want performance pay for a dmd that puts out more performant code, with those improvem

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-29 Thread Joakim
I was wondering if Walter or Andrei would respond to this thread. On Saturday, 29 June 2013 at 08:37:48 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: I agree with your post, I just want to make a couple of minor corrections. What exactly do you agree with Luca about, considering all your "minor corrections" basica

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-29 Thread Walter Bright
On 6/29/2013 7:56 PM, CJS wrote: Wow. That's interesting reading. Thanks for the history lesson! There are other versions of this history, none of which mention the role ZTC++ played in C++ attaining critical mass, so I like to repeat my version now and then :-)

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-29 Thread Walter Bright
On 6/29/2013 9:10 AM, Leandro Lucarella wrote: Even when extremely interesting, I think the ZTC++ history before open source existed or was really viable (the free software movement started in 1983, the FSF was founded in 1985 and the open source definition was made in 1998) is irrelevant in term

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-29 Thread Walter Bright
On 6/29/2013 5:08 AM, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: On Saturday, 29 June 2013 at 08:37:48 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: The bottom line was the open source movement was not a very significant force in the 1980's when C++ gained traction. Open source really exploded around 2000, along with the inter

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-29 Thread CJS
On Saturday, 29 June 2013 at 08:37:48 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: I agree with your post, I just want to make a couple of minor corrections. On 6/27/2013 4:58 AM, Leandro Lucarella wrote: Do you really think C++ took off because there are commercial implementations? I got into the C++ fray in

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-29 Thread Leandro Lucarella
Walter Bright, el 29 de June a las 01:37 me escribiste: > The bottom line was the open source movement was not a very > significant force in the 1980's when C++ gained traction. Open > source really exploded around 2000, along with the internet. I > wonder if open source perhaps needed the internet

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-29 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling
On Saturday, 29 June 2013 at 08:37:48 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: The bottom line was the open source movement was not a very significant force in the 1980's when C++ gained traction. Open source really exploded around 2000, along with the internet. I wonder if open source perhaps needed the inte

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-29 Thread Walter Bright
I agree with your post, I just want to make a couple of minor corrections. On 6/27/2013 4:58 AM, Leandro Lucarella wrote: Do you really think C++ took off because there are commercial implementations? I got into the C++ fray in the 1987-88 time frame. At the time, there was a great debate bet

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-27 Thread Iain Buclaw
On 27 June 2013 14:17, Joakim wrote: > As I said earlier, I'm done with this debate. > > There is no point talking to people who make blatantly ignorant statements > like, "Binary blobs are the exception rather than the rule in Linux, and > many hardware vendors would flat out say 'no' to doing an

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-27 Thread Leandro Lucarella
Joakim, el 27 de June a las 15:17 me escribiste: > As I said earlier, I'm done with this debate. > > There is no point talking to people who make blatantly ignorant > statements like, "Binary blobs are the exception rather than the > rule in Linux, and many hardware vendors would flat out say 'no'

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-27 Thread Iain Buclaw
On 27 June 2013 14:40, Joakim wrote: > On Thursday, 27 June 2013 at 13:25:06 UTC, John Colvin wrote: >> >> On Thursday, 27 June 2013 at 13:18:01 UTC, Joakim wrote: >>> >>> Look, I get it, you guys are religious zealots- you tip your hand when >>> you allude to ethical or moral reasons for using op

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-27 Thread Joakim
On Thursday, 27 June 2013 at 13:25:06 UTC, John Colvin wrote: On Thursday, 27 June 2013 at 13:18:01 UTC, Joakim wrote: Look, I get it, you guys are religious zealots- you tip your hand when you allude to ethical or moral reasons for using open source, a crazy idea if there ever was one- and you

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-27 Thread Dicebot
On Thursday, 27 June 2013 at 13:18:01 UTC, Joakim wrote: There is no point talking to people who make blatantly ignorant statements Yeah, I keep wondering why someone even bothered to waste time explaining all this to someone who is incapable of both providing own reasoning and studying oppon

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-27 Thread John Colvin
On Thursday, 27 June 2013 at 13:18:01 UTC, Joakim wrote: As I said earlier, I'm done with this debate. There is no point talking to people who make blatantly ignorant statements like, "Binary blobs are the exception rather than the rule in Linux, and many hardware vendors would flat out say '

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-27 Thread Joakim
As I said earlier, I'm done with this debate. There is no point talking to people who make blatantly ignorant statements like, "Binary blobs are the exception rather than the rule in Linux, and many hardware vendors would flat out say 'no' to doing any support on them." This assertion is so i

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-27 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling
On Thursday, 27 June 2013 at 08:21:12 UTC, Joakim wrote: I'm familiar with its arguments from a summary, not particularly interested in reading the whole thing. You know, I think I see what your problem is ... :-)

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-27 Thread Leandro Lucarella
Joakim, el 26 de June a las 17:52 me escribiste: > On Wednesday, 26 June 2013 at 11:08:17 UTC, Leandro Lucarella wrote: > >Joakim, el 25 de June a las 23:37 me escribiste: > >>I don't know the views of the key contributors, but I wonder if > >>they > >>would have such a knee-jerk reaction against a

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-27 Thread Iain Buclaw
On 27 June 2013 09:53, Joakim wrote: > those involved with the D compiler can decide if this would be a worthwhile > direction. From their silence so far, I can only assume that they are not > interested in rousing the ire of the freetards and will simply maintain the > status quo of keeping all

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-27 Thread Iain Buclaw
On 27 June 2013 09:21, Joakim wrote: > But lets assume that you are right and the optimization patches I'm talking > about would tend to end up only in the backend. In that case, the frontend > would not have any closed patches and the paid version of dmd would simply > have a slightly-closed, mor

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-27 Thread Joakim
On Thursday, 27 June 2013 at 03:20:37 UTC, Mathias Lang wrote: I've read (almost), everything, so I hope I won't miss a point here: a) I've heard about MSVC, Red Hat, Qt, Linux and so on. From my understanding, none of the projects mentionned have gone from free (as in free beer) to hybrid/clos

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-27 Thread Joakim
On Wednesday, 26 June 2013 at 21:15:34 UTC, Iain Buclaw wrote: On Jun 26, 2013 9:00 PM, "Joakim" wrote: This is flat wrong. I suggest you read the Artistic license, it was chosen for a reason, ie it allows closing of source as long as you provide the original, unmodified binaries with any modi

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Mathias Lang
I've read (almost), everything, so I hope I won't miss a point here: a) I've heard about MSVC, Red Hat, Qt, Linux and so on. From my understanding, none of the projects mentionned have gone from free (as in free beer) to hybrid/closed. And I'm not currently able to think of one successful, widespre

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling
On Wednesday, 26 June 2013 at 21:29:12 UTC, Iain Buclaw wrote: Don't call be Shirley... Serious? :-) By the way, I hope you didn't feel I was trying to speak on behalf of GDC -- wasn't my intention. :-) I did, and it hurt. :o) Oh no. 50 shades of #DD ? :-)

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling
On Wednesday, 26 June 2013 at 19:01:42 UTC, Joakim wrote: Why are they guaranteed such patches? They have advantages because they use different compiler backends. If they think their backends are so great, let them implement their own optimizations and compete. I could respond at greater le

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Iain Buclaw
On Jun 26, 2013 9:50 PM, "Joseph Rushton Wakeling" < joseph.wakel...@webdrake.net> wrote: > > On Wednesday, 26 June 2013 at 19:26:37 UTC, Iain Buclaw wrote: >> >> I can't be bothered to read all points the both of you have mentioned thus far, but I do hope to add a voice of reason to calm you down.

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Iain Buclaw
On Jun 26, 2013 9:00 PM, "Joakim" wrote: > > On Wednesday, 26 June 2013 at 19:26:37 UTC, Iain Buclaw wrote: >> >> From a licensing perspective, the only part of the source that can be "closed off" is the DMD backend. Any optimisation fixes in the DMD backend does not affect GDC/LDC. > > This is f

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling
On Wednesday, 26 June 2013 at 19:26:37 UTC, Iain Buclaw wrote: I can't be bothered to read all points the both of you have mentioned thus far, but I do hope to add a voice of reason to calm you down. ;) Quick, nurse, the screens! ... or perhaps, "Someone throw a bucket of water over them"? :-

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Joakim
On Wednesday, 26 June 2013 at 19:26:37 UTC, Iain Buclaw wrote: From a licensing perspective, the only part of the source that can be "closed off" is the DMD backend. Any optimisation fixes in the DMD backend does not affect GDC/LDC. This is flat wrong. I suggest you read the Artistic license, i

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Iain Buclaw
I can't be bothered to read all points the both of you have mentioned thus far, but I do hope to add a voice of reason to calm you down. ;) On Wednesday, 26 June 2013 at 17:42:23 UTC, Joakim wrote: On Wednesday, 26 June 2013 at 12:02:38 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: Now, in trying to d

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Joakim
On Wednesday, 26 June 2013 at 17:28:22 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: Perhaps you'd like to explain to the maintainers of GDC and LDC why, after all they've done for D, you think it would be acceptable to turn to them and say: "Hey guys, we're going to make improvements and keep them from

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Joakim
On Wednesday, 26 June 2013 at 12:02:38 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: Now, in trying to drive more funding and professional effort towards D development, do you _really_ think that the right thing to do is to turn around to all those people and say: "Hey guys, after all the work you put in

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling
On Wednesday, 26 June 2013 at 15:52:33 UTC, Joakim wrote: I suggest you read my original post more carefully. I have not suggested closing up the entire D toolchain, as you seem to imply. I have suggested working on optimization patches in a closed-source manner and providing two versions of

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Jacob Carlborg
On 2013-06-26 15:18, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: They don't own them, though -- they commit resources to them because the language's ongoing development serves their business needs. Yes, exactly. -- /Jacob Carlborg

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Joakim
On Wednesday, 26 June 2013 at 11:08:17 UTC, Leandro Lucarella wrote: Joakim, el 25 de June a las 23:37 me escribiste: I don't know the views of the key contributors, but I wonder if they would have such a knee-jerk reaction against any paid/closed work. Against being paid no, against being cl

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Iain Buclaw
On 26 June 2013 15:04, eles wrote: > On Tuesday, 25 June 2013 at 08:21:38 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: >> >> On Tuesday, 25 June 2013 at 05:57:30 UTC, Peter Williams wrote: >> D Season of Code! Then we don't have to restrict ourselves to one time of >> the year. > > > D Seasons of Code! Why to restrict

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Leandro Lucarella
Jacob Carlborg, el 26 de June a las 14:39 me escribiste: > On 2013-06-26 12:16, Leandro Lucarella wrote: > > >Yeah, right, probably Python and Ruby have only 5k users... > > There are companies backing those languages, at least Ruby, to some > extent. Read my other post, I won't repeat myself :)

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread eles
On Tuesday, 25 June 2013 at 08:21:38 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: On Tuesday, 25 June 2013 at 05:57:30 UTC, Peter Williams wrote: D Season of Code! Then we don't have to restrict ourselves to one time of the year. D Seasons of Code! Why to restrict to a single season? Let's code all the year long!

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling
On Wednesday, 26 June 2013 at 12:39:05 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-06-26 12:16, Leandro Lucarella wrote: Yeah, right, probably Python and Ruby have only 5k users... There are companies backing those languages, at least Ruby, to some extent. They don't own them, though -- they commit

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Jacob Carlborg
On 2013-06-26 12:16, Leandro Lucarella wrote: Yeah, right, probably Python and Ruby have only 5k users... There are companies backing those languages, at least Ruby, to some extent. -- /Jacob Carlborg

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling
On Tuesday, 25 June 2013 at 21:38:01 UTC, Joakim wrote: I don't know the views of the key contributors, but I wonder if they would have such a knee-jerk reaction against any paid/closed work. The current situation would seem much more of a kick in the teeth to me: spending time trying to be "

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Dicebot
On Wednesday, 26 June 2013 at 11:08:17 UTC, Leandro Lucarella wrote: Android might be the only valid case (but I'm not really familiar with Android model), but the kernel, since is based on Linux, has to have the source code when released. Maybe the drivers are closed source. It is perfectly

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Leandro Lucarella
Joakim, el 26 de June a las 08:33 me escribiste: > It is amazing how far D has gotten with no business model: money > certainly isn't everything. But it is probably impossible to get to > a million users or offer professionalism without commercial > implementations. Yeah, right, probably Python a

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-26 Thread Leandro Lucarella
Joakim, el 25 de June a las 23:37 me escribiste: > On Tuesday, 25 June 2013 at 20:58:16 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling > wrote: > >>I wonder what the response would be to injecting some money and > >>commercialism into the D ecosystem. > > > >Given how D's whole success stems from its community, I th

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-25 Thread Joakim
On Wednesday, 26 June 2013 at 01:25:42 UTC, Bill Baxter wrote: On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Joakim wrote: This talk prominently mentioned scaling to a million users and being professional: going commercial is the only way to get there. IDEs are something you can have a freemium model fo

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-25 Thread Bill Baxter
On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 2:37 PM, Joakim wrote: > On Tuesday, 25 June 2013 at 20:58:16 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: > >> I wonder what the response would be to injecting some money and >>> commercialism into the D ecosystem. >>> >> >> Given how D's whole success stems from its community, I

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-25 Thread Manu
On 26 June 2013 09:59, Peter Williams wrote: > On 26/06/13 06:14, Nick Sabalausky wrote: > >> On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 15:57:18 +1000 >> Peter Williams wrote: >> >>> >>> Can you think of a better name than "D Summer Of Code"? It's very >>> northern hemisphere centric and makes us southerners feel li

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-25 Thread Peter Williams
On 26/06/13 06:14, Nick Sabalausky wrote: On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 15:57:18 +1000 Peter Williams wrote: Can you think of a better name than "D Summer Of Code"? It's very northern hemisphere centric and makes us southerners feel like the rest of the world doesn't know there is a southern hemisphere

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-25 Thread Nick Sabalausky
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 09:13:48 -0700 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: > reddit: > http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1gz40q/dconf_2013_closing_keynote_quo_vadis_by_andrei/ > Torrents and links up, plus a torrent now for the original MP4 of the previous talk: http://semitwist.com/download/mi

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-25 Thread Joakim
On Tuesday, 25 June 2013 at 20:58:16 UTC, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote: I wonder what the response would be to injecting some money and commercialism into the D ecosystem. Given how D's whole success stems from its community, I think an "open core" model (even with time-lapse) would be disas

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-25 Thread Joseph Rushton Wakeling
On Tuesday, 25 June 2013 at 15:44:02 UTC, Joakim wrote: Just finished watching Andrei's talk, it was up to his usual high standard. I found the bits about professionalism a bit weird though: can we really expect that from a volunteer effort? I'm pretty sure the A/V guys at the conference wer

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-25 Thread Jacob Carlborg
On 2013-06-25 11:42, Jonas Drewsen wrote: I'm a Danish guy so there is a at least one dane using D :) Tomas Lindquist Olsen, creator of LDC (LLVMDC back then) is Danish, if I recall correctly. -- /Jacob Carlborg

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-25 Thread Andrei Alexandrescu
On 6/24/13 9:13 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1gz40q/dconf_2013_closing_keynote_quo_vadis_by_andrei/ facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/662488747098143 twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/349197737805373441 ha

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-25 Thread Nick Sabalausky
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 15:57:18 +1000 Peter Williams wrote: > > Can you think of a better name than "D Summer Of Code"? It's very > northern hemisphere centric and makes us southerners feel like the > rest of the world doesn't know there is a southern hemisphere (or if > they do that they don't kn

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-25 Thread Ali Çehreli
On 06/24/2013 10:57 PM, Peter Williams wrote: > Can you think of a better name than "D Summer Of Code"? It's very > northern hemisphere centric and makes us southerners feel like the rest > of the world doesn't know there is a southern hemisphere The only southern country is Mexico, which I am

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-25 Thread Joakim
Just finished watching Andrei's talk, it was up to his usual high standard. I found the bits about professionalism a bit weird though: can we really expect that from a volunteer effort? I'm pretty sure the A/V guys at the conference weren't volunteers, ie they were paid. Along the line that

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-25 Thread Leandro Lucarella
Peter Williams, el 25 de June a las 15:57 me escribiste: > On 25/06/13 02:13, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: > >reddit: > >http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1gz40q/dconf_2013_closing_keynote_quo_vadis_by_andrei/ > > > > > >facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/662488747098143 >

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-25 Thread Jonas Drewsen
I'm a Danish guy so there is a at least one dane using D :) /Jonas

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-25 Thread Mike Parker
On Tuesday, 25 June 2013 at 05:57:30 UTC, Peter Williams wrote: Can you think of a better name than "D Summer Of Code"? It's very northern hemisphere centric and makes us southerners feel like the rest of the world doesn't know there is a southern hemisphere (or if they do that they don't k

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-24 Thread Peter Williams
On 25/06/13 02:13, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1gz40q/dconf_2013_closing_keynote_quo_vadis_by_andrei/ facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/662488747098143 twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/349197737805373441 hac

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-24 Thread David Gileadi
On 6/24/13 9:19 AM, David Gileadi wrote: Slides seem to be missing from http://dconf.org/2013/talks/alexandrescu.pdf; I get a 404. I posted too soon; they're there now. Sorry for the noise.

Re: DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-24 Thread David Gileadi
Slides seem to be missing from http://dconf.org/2013/talks/alexandrescu.pdf; I get a 404.

DConf 2013 Closing Keynote: Quo Vadis by Andrei Alexandrescu

2013-06-24 Thread Andrei Alexandrescu
reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1gz40q/dconf_2013_closing_keynote_quo_vadis_by_andrei/ facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/662488747098143 twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/349197737805373441 hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5