[MBZ] Anybody there?

2012-10-25 Thread WILTON
Wilton ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] Anybody there?

2012-10-25 Thread WILTON
Well, the electrons are flowing, anyway. Wilton - Original Message - From: "WILTON" To: "mercedes list" Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 10:46 AM Subject: [MBZ] Anybody there? Wilton ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.o

Re: [MBZ] Anybody there?

2012-10-25 Thread Craig
On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 10:48:45 -0400 "WILTON" wrote: > Well, the electrons are flowing, anyway. Yup, they sure are. I just checked my email and saw your message, Wilton. How are things there in North Carolina? Craig ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and us

Re: [MBZ] Anybody there?

2012-10-25 Thread Rick Knoble
On Oct 25, 2012, at 9:48 AM, "WILTON" wrote: > Well, the electrons are flowing, anyway. Yes but the axons, dendrites, and synapses aren't firing yet. At least mine aren't. And Arthur Itus seems to be acting up today. Must be the changing weather. Rick Sent from my iPhone __

Re: [MBZ] 1985 300TD tach & AC now working

2012-10-25 Thread Randy Bennell
On 24/10/2012 5:26 PM, G. M. Brown wrote: I drilled out an extra hole in the 4-pin female receptacle for the overload protection relay (original = 126 540 47 45) so it would accept the replacement 5-pin overload protection relay (replacement = 201 540 08 45,Note: this 5th hole is not connected

Re: [MBZ] Anybody there?

2012-10-25 Thread Frederick Moir
Yup! Me too. I too am sick of Arthur and his ilk. Just me mumbling in my beer.   Fred Moir Lynn MA Diesel preferred. > > From: Rick Knoble >To: Mercedes Discussion List >Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 11:09 AM >Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anybody there? > >On Oct 25,

Re: [MBZ] 1985 300TD tach & AC now working

2012-10-25 Thread G. M. Brown
I forgot to add that a couple guys at the M-B Classic Center in CA had been trying to resolve the overload protection relay problem for a number of weeks where the replacement part is now a 5-pin relay (201 540 08 45) whereas the original part was a 4-pin relay (126 540 47 45) but hadn't gotten

Re: [MBZ] Anybody there?

2012-10-25 Thread WILTON
Yeah, 'need to stay away from them Itus boys - bad bunch. Wilton - Original Message - From: "Rick Knoble" To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anybody there? On Oct 25, 2012, at 9:48 AM, "WILTON" wrote: Well, the electrons

Re: [MBZ] 1985 300TD tach & AC now working

2012-10-25 Thread Dan Penoff
The fuel gauge sending units in these models are extremely easy to access and clean. I wrote up a procedure in this that was on Richard's vrx.net site some years back. Can't hurt to check it out and clean it up if necessary. Dan On Oct 25, 2012, at 11:47 AM, "G. M. Brown" wrote: > > I forg

[MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread Randy Bennell
Ok, someone needs to start a good thread or we are going to be back into another oil thread or something similar. This may be considered almost as bad. I will pose a question that I know has been asked before but bear with me if possible and give me your opinions. I may want to drive my 76 3

Re: [MBZ] Anybody there?

2012-10-25 Thread WILTON
Yeah, 'better steer clear of his brothers, Burse and Newr, too. Wilton - Original Message - From: "Frederick Moir" To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anybody there? Yup! Me too. I too am sick of Arthur and his ilk. Just me mu

Re: [MBZ] Anybody there?

2012-10-25 Thread WILTON
Very well; 73, clear, sunny; IVIG treatment tomorrow morning at 7. How there? Wilton - Original Message - From: "Craig" To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] Anybody there? On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 10:48:45 -0400 "WILTON" wrote: Well, the electrons are f

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread Rich Thomas
Belts, hoses, filters, spare tire, maybe some exhaust donuts, ipod with lots of tunes, munchies. Tool kit with some wire and duct tape. --R On 10/25/12 12:08 PM, Randy Bennell wrote: What would you haul with in terms of spare parts etc.? Randy ___ h

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread Randy Bennell
Well there is one thing I should do. There is no radio in it at the moment. The one that was in it when I got it was an aftermarket junker that did not work so I pulled it out. The kids gave me a Pioneer unit for father's day and I have never installed it. Partly because I assume it will need be

Re: [MBZ] 1985 300TD tach & AC now working

2012-10-25 Thread Michael Canfield
Sounds like a weak ground issue. Mike On Oct 25, 2012 11:47 AM, "G. M. Brown" wrote: > > I forgot to add that a couple guys at the M-B Classic Center in CA had > been trying to resolve the overload protection relay problem for a number > of weeks where the replacement part is now a 5-pin relay (

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread Rich Thomas
I put some new speakers in the TD years ago, and apparently the Benz speakers are some weird size, but if I recall the 4" (I think that is what they are) generally available speakers will fit with a little adjustment, and made a huge difference in sound. These were in the back, the fronts look

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread Dieselhead
So, the gist of all this is: What would you haul with in terms of spare parts etc.? I believe much is still available for these old cars without too much searching so if I do have an issue on the road, I assume it could be addressed reasonably quickly. We would go south into the USA and the

Re: [MBZ] For All You Sun Computer People - OT

2012-10-25 Thread Allan Streib
Debian seems to, at least, and if not there are the BSDs, OpenBSD, NetBSD probably being the ones I'd look at, FreeBSD is pretty heavily x86 oriented I think. Allan On Mon, Oct 22, 2012, at 08:02 PM, Rolf wrote: > Surely linux still has a sparc build? > > Sent via string from my tin can. > >

Re: [MBZ] 1985 300TD tach & AC now working

2012-10-25 Thread G. M. Brown
Randy, Re: Could you have just cut off the extra pin? Probably, ain't it great to have choices. Dan, Re: I wrote up a procedure in this that was on Richard's vrx.net site some years back Could you direct me to this procedure? Michael, Re: Sounds like a weak ground issue Nope, ground checks ou

Re: [MBZ] 1985 300TD tach & AC now working

2012-10-25 Thread Dan Penoff
If you Google "fuel gauge sender Penoff" you'll find some links to it. Strangely, one of the first is on a University of Oregon hosted web site. Dan On Oct 25, 2012, at 2:19 PM, "G. M. Brown" wrote: > > Randy, > Re: Could you have just cut off the extra pin? > Probably, ain't it great to have

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread Randy Bennell
On 25/10/2012 12:36 PM, Dieselhead wrote: So, the gist of all this is: What would you haul with in terms of spare parts etc.? I believe much is still available for these old cars without too much searching so if I do have an issue on the road, I assume it could be addressed reasonably quickl

[MBZ] Brake Fluid [was Re: hot topic?]

2012-10-25 Thread Craig
On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 12:36:01 -0500 Dieselhead <126die...@gmail.com> wrote: > Drain and refill the brakes with DOT 4 fluid unless you have or want > to change to DOT 5. BEWARE there is a new DOT5e or something like > that that is out, and it is NOT DOT5 and it is NOT compatible with > DOT5. I

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread Max Dillon
Fuel filters, spare belts, basic tool kit, fuses including pre-glow relay fuse. Check tires, brakes, wheel bearing grease. Change the thermostat and radiator cap when you do the coolant. -- Max Dillon Charleston SC '95 E300 '87 300TD Randy Bennell wrote: >Ok, someone needs to start a good th

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread Curt Raymond
Sounds like you're going to need 5 new tires, the spare is probably VERY old. I carry new fuel filters, the tools to replace them and some nitrile gloves so I don't have to have smelly hands. Other than that I have a cell phone and know how to use it. This week I've been driving my '78 240D 110

Re: [MBZ] Brake Fluid [was Re: hot topic?]

2012-10-25 Thread Scott Ritchey
As I recall, DOT3 and DOT4 are compatible and DOT4 is superior. MBZ always specified DOT4 as long as I've had MBZ cars. DOT5 is a whole different chemistry that's NOT compatible with DOT3/4 and possibly incompatible with DOT3/4 seals, etc. -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebe

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread Curt Raymond
I can't believe I forgot the GLOW PLUG FUSE... Exhaust donuts are definitely an inspect before leaving and replace if theres any question... -Curt Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 12:14:17 -0400 From: Rich Thomas To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] hot topic? Message-ID: <50896559.70...@con

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread Curt Raymond
I think 123 rears are 5" or 6" I forget, 201 rears are 4" I just ordered some cheap Kenwood replacements for my 190D which has gotten all crackly. I'm not much of a stereophile so cheap works for me. I put some cheap Pioneers in the rear of my '78 240D to replace some that didn't work at all. I

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread clay monroe
The what to take for spares is simple. EVERYTHING. sort of a joke. Fuel line is standard. Set of glow plugs and injectors. Two cans of diesel purge, and two diesel kleen, in case you get bad fuel. Spare fuses, wiper blades, small bulbs and a headlight. One oil filter, two fuel, both sizes

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread clay monroe
I may be able to source some speakers from PnP. Yard is hosting a bunch of w124. At least the front 4" could be useful, if not the rears. clay On Oct 25, 2012, at 10:15 AM, Rich Thomas wrote: > I put some new speakers in the TD years ago, and apparently the Benz speakers > are some weird si

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread clay monroe
I have been using Mobil 1 on all my cars for a decade. If you are going to swap out fluid and filter, then take the trip, I would do synth ATF with the full TC drain. Run it the 2k miles, which should loosen up and flush old gunk, then drain when you get home. Fill with synth ATF again. clay

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread WILTON
R&R injector fuel return lines. Wilton - Original Message - From: "clay monroe" To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] hot topic? The what to take for spares is simple. EVERYTHING. sort of a joke. Fuel line is standard. Set o

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread Michael Canfield
Wow! If you guys carry all of these spares where do you put anything else? I carry spare fuel filters, a screwdriver, a crescent wrench, lug wrench, spare tire, fuses and jumper cables in the 83. If going on a long trip I carry a jug of oil and atf along with a jug of drinking water for me or th

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread Mitch Haley
Dieselhead wrote: Drain and refill the brakes with DOT 4 fluid unless you have or want to change to DOT 5. BEWARE there is a new DOT5e or something like that that is out, and it is NOT DOT5 and it is NOT compatible with DOT5. I believe that DOT 5.1 is compatible with 3 and 4, but meets the t

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread Mitch Haley
Randy Bennell wrote: I have changed the brake fluid out once a couple of years ago. Wouldn't hurt to do so again I guess. It should be changed every year, but every two years works OK for me. Little used cars in varying climate probably need it more often than daily drivers. Mitch.

[MBZ] I Want This

2012-10-25 Thread Rick Knoble
They could sell a bunch of these in the US. http://bringatrailer.com/2012/10/22/glacier-ready-stretched-2002-mercedes-g500-pick-up/ Rick Sent from my iPhone ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http:

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread Randy Bennell
Ok, my "hot topic" kept you folks posting all day today and I got some good information to boot. Randy On 25/10/2012 4:16 PM, Mitch Haley wrote: Randy Bennell wrote: I have changed the brake fluid out once a couple of years ago. Wouldn't hurt to do so again I guess. It should be changed e

Re: [MBZ] I Want This

2012-10-25 Thread Rich Thomas
awesome --R On 10/25/12 6:16 PM, Rick Knoble wrote: They could sell a bunch of these in the US. http://bringatrailer.com/2012/10/22/glacier-ready-stretched-2002-mercedes-g500-pick-up/ Rick Sent from my iPhone ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used par

Re: [MBZ] Brake Fluid [was Re: hot topic?]

2012-10-25 Thread Dieselhead
DOT4 is required for MB since at least 1959. DOT3 junk will swell the rubber parts and turn the hoses to the wheels into check valves that drag the brakes constantly. DOT 5 was introduced maybe 20 years ago. It is silicone based, and NOT compatible with any other brake fluid. DOT 5 is much

Re: [MBZ] 6.9

2012-10-25 Thread RELNGSON
> ...Seriously, I was thinking that engine would be worth having for > something.  275hp in a fairly tight package.  I suppose you would need > the tranny and driveshaft and diff and axles and steering/suspension > just to make it a whole transplant into some kind of rat rod.   But that > would be

Re: [MBZ] 6.9

2012-10-25 Thread Dimitri Seretakis
What's a dry sump engine? No oil pan? Is this a bad thing? Sent from my iPhone On Oct 25, 2012, at 6:44 PM, relng...@aol.com wrote: ...Seriously, I was thinking that engine would be worth having for something. 275hp in a fairly tight package. I suppose you would need the tranny and driveshaft

Re: [MBZ] 6.9

2012-10-25 Thread Dimitri Seretakis
The way I understand it, it's not all about hp. The extra displacement of the V8 should give the engine more grunt at higher road speeds. My guess is that at 70 plus mph the 6.9 will give the 3.0 V6 a run for it's money. Of course, I've driven neither car so I can't say based on experience. Se

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread Curt Raymond
I'm with Clay, I think this is the BEST time to change to synthetics... That said I probably wouldn't bother for engine oil. Randy doesn't drive the car that much and doesn't drive it during the winter so he's not likely to get any of the real advantages synthetic would provide. -Curt Date: Th

Re: [MBZ] 6.9

2012-10-25 Thread Kaleb C. Striplin
It's about torque. Sent from my iPhone On Oct 25, 2012, at 6:05 PM, Dimitri Seretakis wrote: > The way I understand it, it's not all about hp. The extra displacement of the > V8 should give the engine more grunt at higher road speeds. My guess is that > at 70 plus mph the 6.9 will give the 3

Re: [MBZ] 6.9

2012-10-25 Thread Jon Agne
Dry sump means there is no oil pooling in the bottom of the engine...no oil pan. There is a separate oil tank with a pickup tube to supply all of the oil to engine under pressure. It's not a bad system. I have hundreds of flight hours with a Continental O-470 that was dry sump. It made inver

Re: [MBZ] 6.9

2012-10-25 Thread Dimitri Seretakis
Well if it's good enough for a plane it should be good enough for a car! Did you do inverted flight and aerobatics??!! Sent from my iPhone On Oct 25, 2012, at 7:47 PM, Jon Agne wrote: Dry sump means there is no oil pooling in the bottom of the engine...no oil pan. There is a separate oil tan

Re: [MBZ] hot topic?

2012-10-25 Thread OK Don
The W115 chassis has a single 5x7 front speaker mounted in the center of the grill - I remember this because that's where I did the last R&R of the heater fan in my last '76 300D. I'd add check the half shaft CV boots - make sure they are not open. On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 3:18 PM, clay monroe wr

Re: [MBZ] 6.9

2012-10-25 Thread Jon Agne
Yes. On Oct 25, 2012, at 7:53 PM, Dimitri Seretakis wrote: > Well if it's good enough for a plane it should be good enough for a car! Did > you do inverted flight and aerobatics??!! > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 25, 2012, at 7:47 PM, Jon Agne wrote: > > Dry sump means there is no oil po

Re: [MBZ] 6.9

2012-10-25 Thread Rich Thomas
That was about the trashed E430 the guy is trying to sell, not sure how it got mixed up in a 6.9 thread unless I screwed up --R On 10/25/12 6:44 PM, relng...@aol.com wrote: ...Seriously, I was thinking that engine would be worth having for something. 275hp in a fairly tight package. I suppos

Re: [MBZ] 6.9

2012-10-25 Thread Dimitri Seretakis
Good point. I don't think a 6.9 puts out 275hp. More like 250 or something. Sent from my iPhone On Oct 25, 2012, at 9:21 PM, Rich Thomas wrote: That was about the trashed E430 the guy is trying to sell, not sure how it got mixed up in a 6.9 thread unless I screwed up --R On 10/25/12 6:44 PM

Re: [MBZ] 6.9

2012-10-25 Thread Peter Frederick
It had better put out more than 250 hp! My M117 4.5L is rated at 232, so is the 3.5L M116, both from 1972. The 6.9 was derived from the M100, which cranked out at least 300 hp and 400 ft/lbs of torque on 6.3L. And remember this is DIN hp, rated at the rear wheels by MB, and factory "mini

Re: [MBZ] 6.9

2012-10-25 Thread Rich Thomas
I looked back at my original mail, it was titled Ouch -- Hey Max. Looks like relng...@aol.com messed it up and got my mail mixed in with his 6.9 rant. --R On 10/25/12 10:05 PM, Dimitri Seretakis wrote: Good point. I don't think a 6.9 puts out 275hp. More like 250 or something. Sent from my i

Re: [MBZ] dry sumps

2012-10-25 Thread RELNGSON
> .What's a dry sump engine? No oil pan? Is this a bad thing?.. > A dry sump engine carries it's oil in a tank next to the engine. There is no oil pan but just a slight depression where the oil pickup for the scavenge pump is located. The main oil pump (likely in unit with the scavenge pump)

Re: [MBZ] 6.9

2012-10-25 Thread RELNGSON
> ...My guess is that at 70 plus mph the 6.9 will give the 3.0 V6 a run for > it's money. Of course, I've driven neither car so I can't say based on > experience.. > If you look at the published numbers, the ungoverned V-6 is faster than either the 6.3 or 6.9. But it is governed because of the

Re: [MBZ] 6.9

2012-10-25 Thread Dimitri Seretakis
But which car would accelerate faster once at 70mph? Sent from my iPhone On Oct 25, 2012, at 10:45 PM, relng...@aol.com wrote: ...My guess is that at 70 plus mph the 6.9 will give the 3.0 V6 a run for it's money. Of course, I've driven neither car so I can't say based on experience.. If you l

[MBZ] Flying in Russia

2012-10-25 Thread RELNGSON
http://www.nycaviation.com/2012/10/is-this-the-most-dangerous-takeoff-ever-captured-on-video/#.UIlyoIbkaSo ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or chang

[MBZ] OT - Texas Car Wars, etc.

2012-10-25 Thread WILTON
I 'spose you guys have seen the TV show "Texas Car Wars" and coupla other such car flipping shows. Rusty heap cars are "rescued" from junk/salvage yards, and most of them don't seem to get much more than new paint, upholstery, shiny wheels, tars, sometimes another used engine and/or tranny, etc

Re: [MBZ] Car For Someone

2012-10-25 Thread andrew strasfogel
Hail Dimitri. I spent weekends in fruitless pursuit of non=cr*pped out 6.3s and 6.9s so I am pretty jaded I guess. On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 10:54 PM, Dimitri Seretakis wrote: > Andrew is a miso116ist. My parents had a w116 with 330,000 miles on the clock > and the interior was just fine. > The 6

Re: [MBZ] Flying in Russia

2012-10-25 Thread G Mann
It's just a normal Russian takeoff... you fly in Russia... you cheat death... This is why vodka was invented.. it makes you brave, no? On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 8:03 PM, wrote: > > > http://www.nycaviation.com/2012/10/is-this-the-most-dangerous-takeoff-ever-captured-on-video/#.UIlyoIbkaSo > _

[MBZ] BB Pictures - A New Thread!

2012-10-25 Thread andrew strasfogel
What needs to be done to enable my BB torch so I can email photos? The camera works fine but when I attempt to email a picture singly or as an attachment they don't transmit! Instead there is the following "transaction error: failure at service". Was ist los? ___

Re: [MBZ] boiling Brake Fluid [was Re: hot topic?]

2012-10-25 Thread Hendrik & Fay
You can buy a tester pretty cheap, which will measure the amount of water in the fluid. Suppose you could do it with a multimeter? Or you can suck the old fluid out, boil it up for a while to steam the water off and put it back in once it has cooled down a bit. Hendrik who has a checker in the

[MBZ] Amsoil ATF in an older transmission

2012-10-25 Thread Alan Clarke
Wanted some advise or thoughts on using Amsoil ATF in my 85 Turbo. It is a synthetic rated as a Dexron II and III replacement. One mechanic I respect thought it was bad idea to use for reasons of causing leaking seals and the like in an older tranny. The tranny has been serviced regularly and

Re: [MBZ] BB Pictures - A New Thread!

2012-10-25 Thread Rich Thomas
What is a BB torch? --R On 10/25/12 11:25 PM, andrew strasfogel wrote: What needs to be done to enable my BB torch so I can email photos? The camera works fine but when I attempt to email a picture singly or as an attachment they don't transmit! Instead there is the following "transaction erro

[MBZ] CAR COLLECTIONS

2012-10-25 Thread RELNGSON
http://masterstv.com/GriotsGarageTreasuresTV.html ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to: http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman

Re: [MBZ] BB Pictures - A New Thread!

2012-10-25 Thread Craig
On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 23:35:55 -0400 Rich Thomas wrote: > What is a BB torch? Good question. Ball bearing? Brigit Bardot? Black and bruised? > On 10/25/12 11:25 PM, andrew strasfogel wrote: > > What needs to be done to enable my BB torch so I can email photos? > > The camera works fine but when

Re: [MBZ] BB Pictures - A New Thread!

2012-10-25 Thread Fmiser
> > > On 10/25/12 11:25 PM, andrew strasfogel wrote: > > > > > > What needs to be done to enable my BB torch so I can email > > > photos? The camera works fine but when I attempt to email > > > a picture singly or as an attachment they don't transmit! > > > Instead there is the following "transacti

Re: [MBZ] For All You Sun Computer People - OT

2012-10-25 Thread Fmiser
> > On Mon, Oct 22, 2012, at 08:02 PM, Rolf wrote: > > Surely linux still has a sparc build? > Allan Streib wrote: > > Debian seems to, at least, and if not there are the BSDs, > OpenBSD, NetBSD probably being the ones I'd look at, FreeBSD > is pretty heavily x86 oriented I think. The current sta

Re: [MBZ] 6.9

2012-10-25 Thread Jim Cathey
the ungoverned V-6 is faster than either the 6.3 or 6.9. HP == top speed Torque == acceleration For general smileage, more torque is better than more HP. My 200D 115 is _very_ drivable, even with what, 50-odd HP? But as a diesel it has more torque than the HP figure would lead the usual gasser-

Re: [MBZ] Amsoil ATF in an older transmission

2012-10-25 Thread Rick Knoble
On Oct 25, 2012, at 10:34 PM, "Alan Clarke" wrote: > Does anyone have any information and or thoughts about the use of synthetic > Amsoil ATF in an older 123 Diesel with a 722.315 transmission? This meets the MB spec http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atf.aspx That is specified here http://