Re: [MBZ] Truth

The brown W123s offer perfect camouflage for roaches that can blend into the paintwork. On Sat, Oct 14, 2023 at 12:18 PM Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes < mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote: > > > --FT > Sent from iFōn___ > http://www.okiebenz.com > > To search list

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

The Sonos speakers or sound systems got bricked because the manufacturer decided to stop supporting it. Rather than just letting things die a slow death, they tell users to put the speakers in “recycle mode” which disabled things when the EoL came. I’ll have to look it up and see, I just know

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Here's another example of what can happen when devices depend on "the cloud" to operate... https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/04/shameful-insteon-looks-dead-just-like-its-users-smart-homes/ ... oopps, the mother ship shut down, and now all the satellite devices are as good as bricked. On

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

My guess is, once the manufacturing has ended, much of this information gets "misplaced." On Tue, Apr 19, 2022, at 12:13 PM, Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes wrote: > At some point (20yr? Less) manufacturers should be required to publish > code, schematics, wiring/connector diagrams, etc for

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

On Tue, Apr 19, 2022, at 10:19 AM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes wrote: >> You get what you pay for here too, like most things. > > If only. The wear-out characteristics of most flash devices is NOT something > they advertise, and on lower-cost stuff it isn't even known. (To you.) Yeah in the

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

IMHO the designs should be required to be escrowed, and the escrow is released as soon as the manufacturer can/will no longer supply replacements. -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

To that exact point. In the aircraft industry, service life is determined on two things [or more]. 1. Number of hours of operation. 2. Number of cycles of operation. [startup / shutdown]. This standard works for both mechanical and electrical components. Car manufacturers are certainly advanced

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

At some point (20yr? Less) manufacturers should be required to publish code, schematics, wiring/connector diagrams, etc for the aftermarket to step in and provide replacement parts. Some of it can be reverse engineered it seems but it’s not always compatible. I’m thinking “OEM” ECUs and that

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Ok, back to Mercedes talk, for a moment. It has become virtually routine that someone posts a car that is offered for sale that has issues which have turned it into a mechanical brick, caused by "something electrical" in the "electrical to mechanical controls systems" [now a myriad of systems,

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

When I wrote that white paper, for work, I was surprised at just how many failure mechanisms were in play. This, on top of any other common electronic failure mechanisms. (Die contamination, metal fatigue, electrophoretic migration, tin whiskers, oxidation, etc.) -- Jim

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

I think most SSD manufacturers try to disguise the wear out characteristics of their drives. I talk about SSD life in class and many of my students are shocked to hear it... -Curt On Tuesday, April 19, 2022, 10:20:39 AM EDT, Jim Cathey via Mercedes wrote: > You get what you pay for here

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

> IIRC they were doing a lot of writing of data to solid-state storage and > wearing it out. Yep, we had some customers that turned on the debug logging features, to '11', and left them on. Took out the onboard flash in about a year. Not too cool, losing six-figure network backbone systems

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Right up there with Bloodbath and Beyond. On Mon, Apr 18, 2022, at 6:08 PM, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote: > Nope. > > There used to be a great website with that domain name that was a > fantastic parody of the place, but it’s been gone for a long time. I’m > sure the “real” one shut it

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

It’s like a SaaS model for cars Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 18, 2022, at 2:33 PM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes > wrote: > >  >> >> I own it, it’s mine, the manufacturer should not be able to change things >> after the fact. > > You are becoming a Luddite, Dan. > > Sadly, most manufacturers

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

A month ago, we bought a new minivan, a 2022 Toyota Sienna. It has many subscription based features. There’s a handy Toyota app that allows you to stop and start your engine, lock and unlock the doors and a few other things. It’s free for the first year, but $9.00 per month after that. That van

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Nope. There used to be a great website with that domain name that was a fantastic parody of the place, but it’s been gone for a long time. I’m sure the “real” one shut it down. -D > On Apr 18, 2022, at 6:06 PM, Bob Rentfro via Mercedes > wrote: > > I love you typed, “Home Despot”. I

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

I love you typed, “Home Despot”. I thought that was a me thing. AZBob Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 18, 2022, at 12:33 PM, OK Don via Mercedes > wrote: > > We have a Kenmore fridge, top french doors, bottom freezer. THe ice maker > died and was replaced twice under warranty. THe next time

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

SWMBO is always right you know! Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 18, 2022, at 5:18 PM, Andrew Strasfogel wrote: > >  > You just made someone very happy. SWMBO insists on rinsing. > >> On Mon, Apr 18, 2022 at 5:06 PM Dimitri Seretakis >> wrote: >> If you want clogged hoses and filters then

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

You just made someone very happy. SWMBO insists on rinsing. On Mon, Apr 18, 2022 at 5:06 PM Dimitri Seretakis wrote: > If you want clogged hoses and filters then scrape. They tell you not to > rinse because they want you to think you are saving water and getting a > more user friendly

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

If you want clogged hoses and filters then scrape. They tell you not to rinse because they want you to think you are saving water and getting a more user friendly experience. They claim that the detergent clings better to food particles. I call BS as does my repairman. I’ve spent hundreds of

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Yeah, we got burned on Maytag in the last Florida house. Bought a range/over and a fridge. The fridge was OK, the dishwasher a POS, but the range/oven, which we still have, has been wonky for a number of years and no one seems to know how to fix it. We know the work-aound, and we like it

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Bosch manual says "scrape dishes DO NOT RINSE before loading." On Mon, Apr 18, 2022 at 4:33 PM Allan Streib via Mercedes < mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote: > There are also a lot fewer manufacturers than there are brands. KitchenAid > used to be made by Hobart and that established their reputation.

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

There are also a lot fewer manufacturers than there are brands. KitchenAid used to be made by Hobart and that established their reputation. Today they are just a brand of Whirlpool, as is Maytag, another brand that used to be known for dependability. On Mon, Apr 18, 2022, at 3:21 PM, Dimitri

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

I meant rinse off dishes prior to placing in dishwasher, not pre-washing. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 18, 2022, at 4:29 PM, Dimitri Seretakis wrote: > > Don’t be fooled. I deal with many dishwashers failing and getting repaired > by a repair man. They say to pre-wash dishes regardless of

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Don’t be fooled. I deal with many dishwashers failing and getting repaired by a repair man. They say to pre-wash dishes regardless of what any manufacturer says. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 18, 2022, at 4:22 PM, Andrew Strasfogel wrote: > >  > Eh, the original DWs required you to

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

My own house also has a kitchen aid side by side fridge which is 15 years old. Also no problems. I have a rental property with a Fischer and Paykel fridge also 15 years old and rock solid. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 18, 2022, at 4:02 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes > wrote: > > We

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Yup. Clean mine weekly. At the Flagstaff house the previous owners spared no expense for appliances. Everything there is pretty high end stuff - not Wolf or like that, but the high end GE stuff, for example. The dishwasher is a Kitchenaid, I think, and not long after we bought the place the

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Eh, the original DWs required you to scrupulously clean each dish before loading. no thanks. On Mon, Apr 18, 2022 at 4:21 PM Dimitri Seretakis wrote: > Kitchen aid dishwashers are considered good by today’s standards, as are > Bosch but the longest lifespan dishwashers made today are Miele. Of

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Kitchen aid dishwashers are considered good by today’s standards, as are Bosch but the longest lifespan dishwashers made today are Miele. Of course these are probably all junk compared to the stuff made 30-40 yrs ago. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 18, 2022, at 4:02 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

The Bosch DW requires you to clean the food screen manually but is so well designed that it takes only 30 seconds to a minute to do, maybe twice monthly. On Mon, Apr 18, 2022 at 4:07 PM Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes < mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote: > Right, that’s why I’m not buying a car that

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Right, that’s why I’m not buying a car that needs software to run. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 18, 2022, at 3:37 PM, OK Don via Mercedes > wrote: > > The other factor is that software is usually considered to be rented or > leased, not owned by the user who pays for it - even old installed

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

I have a KitchenAid dishwasher. It tends to accumuate debris in the drain. There is a rotating blade there that is supposed to chop up food waste, but if a little chip of a plate or cup or bit of bone gets in there it will make a terrible noise. I need to clean mine out every year or two.

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

We moved in 9 years ago to a home that had KitchenAid double door fridge and SS dishwasher - installed 5 years prior. The DW was repaired once, then started making a noise that didn't affect its operation, but we replaced it anyway with a Bosch. The fridge hasn't given any trouble at all. On

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

The other factor is that software is usually considered to be rented or leased, not owned by the user who pays for it - even old installed applications like Office IIRC. So why should the software running the car be any different? On Mon, Apr 18, 2022 at 2:33 PM Rick Knoble via Mercedes <

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

They are still in the infancy stage - take another look in 20 years or so. On Mon, Apr 18, 2022 at 1:57 PM Curt Raymond via Mercedes < mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote: > Seems like a silly system, I see wanting to write but the base > configuration should be on non-volitile storage with the drive

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

> I own it, it’s mine, the manufacturer should not be able to change things > after the fact. You are becoming a Luddite, Dan. Sadly, most manufacturers are going to a "subscription" model, not only for software (I.E. QuickBooks, Office 365), but for enabling options on automobiles. Want

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

We have a Kenmore fridge, top french doors, bottom freezer. THe ice maker died and was replaced twice under warranty. THe next time it "died", the warranty was expired, so I messed with it and figured out that the switch that keeps it from dumping when you open the bottom door - with a bit of

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Seems like a silly system, I see wanting to write but the base configuration should be on non-volitile storage with the drive relatively easy and inexpensive to replace... Curt Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Mon, Apr 18, 2022 at 2:54 PM, Allan Streib via Mercedes wrote: IIRC they

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

IIRC they were doing a lot of writing of data to solid-state storage and wearing it out. Yes, like a spinning hard drive, solid-state drives can wear out. They will take a limited number of writes before they start throwing errors. You get what you pay for here too, like most things. On Mon,

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Had some dealers tell me that but otherwise no. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 18, 2022, at 1:04 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: > > Do you have a source for that? I see that Tesla has issued a big recall for > screens, they're blaming it on the hard drive that runs the thing. > > Sounds a bit like

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

I think the difference between the two was about $100. The lesser one had a lot of negative reviews, too. -D > On Apr 18, 2022, at 2:37 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: > > My general opinion is to get the best/most expensive or the absolute > cheapest. With the later at least you're not out a ton

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

My general opinion is to get the best/most expensive or the absolute cheapest. With the later at least you're not out a ton of money... -Curt On Monday, April 18, 2022, 02:35:45 PM EDT, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote: I just bought a Chinese beverage cooler to take the place of a

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Apple products have a setting that allows you to choose anytime, when you want, or never. -D > On Apr 18, 2022, at 2:32 PM, Curt Raymond wrote: > > My least favorite "feature" of phones/tablets is the "You get an update > right now." whether I'm in the middle of something or not... > >

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

On Mon, Apr 18, 2022, at 10:18 AM, Rick Knoble via Mercedes wrote: > If you can keep a Wxxx on the road for 40 plus years, isn't that > more "green" than buying another car every five or ten years? That has been my philosophy for the last 25 years or so. Allan

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

I just bought a Chinese beverage cooler to take the place of a trash compactor at the Flagstaff house. It was that or a generic base cabinet I likely wouldn’t have been able to match the rest. Because the space is only 15” I had a heck of a time finding something that would fit and wasn’t a

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

My least favorite "feature" of phones/tablets is the "You get an update right now." whether I'm in the middle of something or not... -Curt On Monday, April 18, 2022, 02:30:09 PM EDT, dan penoff.com via Mercedes wrote: The issue I have with products like the Tesla is that they can

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

The issue I have with products like the Tesla is that they can control it without your approval. There are a number of documented instances when the cars changed hands and as a part of that process features were disabled so that the new owner could not access them. You can avoid this by not

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

“Sounds a bit like computer guys designing cars didn't consider how long people keep cars...” Which is exactly why EVs are disposable and couple this with the fact that the hugely expensive batteries are relatively short lived. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 18, 2022, at 2:04 PM, Curt Raymond

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

I have a Sammy fridge too. First the bottom ice machine crapped out, was still nerf warranty (I might have an extended I don’t recall) so a guy came a fixed it with a plastic “fill tube” about 6” long that froze and broke. Duh, a plastic tube filled with water in a freezer. Who knew. So that

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Do you have a source for that? I see that Tesla has issued a big recall for screens, they're blaming it on the hard drive that runs the thing. Sounds a bit like computer guys designing cars didn't consider how long people keep cars... -Curt On Monday, April 18, 2022, 01:26:37 PM EDT, Kaleb

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Bought a Samsung dishwasher this summer for a rental property. It failed in three months. Samsung said it was not repairable and that they could not replace it and would not pay for labor. They told me to go to their online store and with a credit buy whatever I wanted - could be a smart phone

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

We have a Maytag washer and drier front loading pair that has to be 15 years old now. A couple of years ago the bearing in the back of the tub started making loud noises. I found some videos of replacing it because Maytag does not sell it. Just the entire tub assembly. Found the proper bearing,

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

With Teslas the big screen is the middle is programmed to die after a certain amount of time. Supposedly it quits working and it’s a software thing but the whole assembly has to be replaced. Cars are basically the new iPhones. Sent from my iPhone > On Apr 18, 2022, at 10:51 AM, Dimitri

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

As you all know, I have a few rental properties. Until a few years ago, I would be tempted by brands such as Samsung or LG or other low end “American” brands for appliances because they were relatively inexpensive but looked good in stainless suits. I’ve learned my lesson. Samsung and LG

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

I don’t have a problem paying more for a product if it’s going to last longer and provide the same functionality. Something like a dishwasher, washing machine, etc., that wouldn’t change significantly as far as functionality makes a lot of sense. Certainly, stuff breaks, but who needs a new

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Absolutely more green to keep using the same product indefinitely. There is no doubt in my mind that an EV will have a max lifespan of 15 years, most 10-12 years. The exceptions will be those few cars owned by people who are willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a new battery to keep

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

I don’t think this is political in nature, Rick. It’s about planned obsolescence, and is spot-on. It makes sense to me that manufacturers be required to maintain spared for a reasonable period of time as described or pay a disposal fee up front. That makes perfect sense to me, and it would

Re: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Specifically. Damn autocorrect. Rick From: mercedes@okiebenz.com Sent: April 18, 2022 10:18 AM To: mercedes@okiebenz.com Reply-to: mercedes@okiebenz.com Cc: rickkno...@hotmail.com Subject: [MBZ] Truth On Repairability Off topic? On topic? He doesn't discuss Mercedes specially, but let's

[MBZ] Truth On Repairability

Off topic? On topic? He doesn't discuss Mercedes specially, but let's be honest. If you can keep a Wxxx on the road for 40 plus years, isn't that more "green" than buying another car every five or ten years? https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=245674 It truly pisses me off when I go to

Re: [MBZ] Truth or Fiction?

ROFL. Dead silent at any speed under .0001 mph. On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes < mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote: > +1 !!! > > -D > > > > On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:30 PM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes < > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote: > > > > The left turn signal was on for the

Re: [MBZ] Truth or Fiction?

+1 !!! -D > On Feb 12, 2018, at 3:30 PM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes > wrote: > > The left turn signal was on for the last 34 years as he drove around. A > testament to Lucas? > > --FT > > > On 2/12/18 3:27 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes wrote: >> Can you imagine

Re: [MBZ] Truth or Fiction?

The left turn signal was on for the last 34 years as he drove around.  A testament to Lucas? --FT On 2/12/18 3:27 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes wrote: Can you imagine even having the same car for 82 years? Mr. Allen Swift ( Springfield , MA ) received this 1928 Rolls-Royce Piccadilly-P1

[MBZ] Truth or Fiction?

Can you imagine even having the same car for 82 years? Mr. Allen Swift ( Springfield , MA ) received this 1928 Rolls-Royce Piccadilly-P1 Roadster from his father, brand new – as a graduation gift in 1928. He drove it up until his death last year … At the age of 102!!! He was the oldest living

[MBZ] Truth in advertising!

1982 Mercedes Benz 240 diesel/ biodiesel - $1800 (West Ashley) Great running diesel with very low mileage 101K, interior perfect but, crack in dash. Has rust spots on the body and clear coat is peeling on back, runs and drives great. 25 mph Air conditioning blows cold and heat works

Re: [MBZ] Truth in advertising!

1982 Mercedes Benz 240 diesel...runs and drives great. 25 mph Hmm, that was a fair description of that 240D I bought a couple of years ago. Serious throttle linkage problem. Once that was cured it would go faster. :-) -- Jim ___ http://www.okiebenz.com

Re: [MBZ] Truth about drive shafts

whatever you all what Luther Gulseth wrote: So you just doubled the repair time. Are we going to make this an official OkieQ presentation or just fix it? Kaleb C. Striplin [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I dont have it out, I just have it unbolted from the front, and the center support is

Re: [MBZ] Truth about drive shafts

hell yes, and I may even give you some free parts. Luther Gulseth wrote: Doing the center U-joint bearing and carrier is a piece of cake. I could do one in less than 1 hour and even have the puller to do it. Just over $11 at Autozone. Should I bring the tools to OkieQ and do a

Re: [MBZ] Truth about drive shafts

then I'll make a list and bring tools. You provide the parts-the driveshaft support, bearing, and the support boot. We'll edjumakate all the OkieQ attendees. On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 19:23:41 -0500, Kaleb C. Striplin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hell yes, and I may even give you some free

Re: [MBZ] Truth about drive shafts

Hell I already got the parts, its all apart just needs the thing pulled off and put back on Luther Gulseth wrote: then I'll make a list and bring tools. You provide the parts-the driveshaft support, bearing, and the support boot. We'll edjumakate all the OkieQ attendees. On Sun, 11 Jun

Re: [MBZ] Truth about drive shafts

Gosh, that'll take 5 mins. Half the battle is getting the driveshaft out and back in. You've got a deal. On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 21:58:53 -0500, Kaleb C. Striplin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hell I already got the parts, its all apart just needs the thing pulled off and put back on Luther

Re: [MBZ] Truth about drive shafts

I dont have it out, I just have it unbolted from the front, and the center support is unbolted. The only thing holding it in now is the rear flex disk. That takes all of 5 minutes to pull. Luther Gulseth wrote: Gosh, that'll take 5 mins. Half the battle is getting the driveshaft out and

Re: [MBZ] Truth about drive shafts

So you just doubled the repair time. Are we going to make this an official OkieQ presentation or just fix it? Kaleb C. Striplin [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I dont have it out, I just have it unbolted from the front, and the center support is unbolted. The only thing holding it in now is the

Re: [MBZ] Truth about drive shafts

I have to replace the center support on my wagon and I have not figured it out yet. Looks like I need a puller but not sure if I want to mess with it. You maybe need a puller, but it comes off pretty easily. A hammer can take it off if you've no intention of reusing any of the bits. I use a

[MBZ] Truth about drive shafts

I'm ready to pull the engine on my 124. Last thing I need to so is disconnect is the drive shaft. With the transmission mount removed and the rear supported by a jack, it looks like I need to disconnect the flex disk. But it looks like every bolt and bushing in that thing has a certain

Re: [MBZ] Truth about drive shafts

I would mark the flanges and flex disk so they go back in the original places, and remember which way the bolts go (off the top of my head I don't remember if they are bolt head at the flange side or the other way 'round). All the bolts are identical, but keep each bolt, washer, and nut

Re: [MBZ] Truth about drive shafts

List Subject: [MBZ] Truth about drive shafts I'm ready to pull the engine on my 124. Last thing I need to so is disconnect is the drive shaft. With the transmission mount removed and the rear supported by a jack, it looks like I need to disconnect the flex disk. But it looks like every bolt

Re: [MBZ] Truth about drive shafts

DON'T mess with the center u-joint! I did, and it's not been right since. It is straked in place with a special jig, and no one I've found around here can balance the shaft if you replace it! There is an outfit in California that does, but they want $600 or so Peter

Re: [MBZ] Truth about drive shafts

The best bet is to probably just swap in a whole good used driveshaft rather than mess with the U-joint. I have to replace the center support on my wagon and I have not figured it out yet. Looks like I need a puller but not sure if I want to mess with it. Thinking about just parting out the

Re: [MBZ] Truth about drive shafts

Doing the center U-joint bearing and carrier is a piece of cake. I could do one in less than 1 hour and even have the puller to do it. Just over $11 at Autozone. Should I bring the tools to OkieQ and do a demonstration? Speakin of 123 driveshafts..does a 240 d/s match up with a 300D

Re: [MBZ] Truth about drive shafts

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:05:24 -0500 Luther Gulseth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Speakin of 123 driveshafts..does a 240 d/s match up with a 300D turbo? Short answer: NO! Long answer: The fifth cylinder that was added to a 616.9xx to make it into a 617.9xx was added to the rear of

Re: [MBZ] Truth about drive shafts

Front section for the turbo is shorter. Peter

Re: [MBZ] Truth about drive shafts

Bingo, the brace for the carrier bearing is at the same location on the back half of the d/s. The u-joint is on the front section and goes with the engine/tranny combo. On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:32:28 -0500, Craig McCluskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:05:24 -0500