Lou:
Louis,
But this is what troubles me about all this: isn't the argument you are
advancing an ideological reason to be opposed to the thesis at hand rather
than a social scientific one? Are we to dismiss arguments because of the way
they are used by modernization theorists?
Andrew
I
Review of the Month, Monthly Review, September 2000:
. . . this widespread retreat from class.*
*For a discussion of some of the many forms that this has taken, we
heartily recommend Ellen Meiksins Wood's book, winner of the Isaac
Deutscher prize, *The Retreat from Class* (New York: Verso,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/26/00 03:12AM
I have already cited Brenner's argument that we must study the
process of class struggles class formations _in Africa_ to fully
account for the emergence of African slaves as commodities, as well
as class struggles class formations _in the so-called New
From globalreflexion.org
"Democracy" will not be for all pockets
IN BELGRADE, OIL JUMPED FROM 15 TO 51 DINARS
"Democracy" will not be for all pockets
In Belgrade, the price of one liter of oil had jumped from 15 to 51dinars,
price of bread from 6 to 14 and of sugar from 6 to 45. "Democratic
Now that Jackie Chan has become a major Hollywood star, it was almost
inevitable that some of his earlier great Hong Kong movies would be
released for commercial distribution in the United States. This includes
"Legend of Drunken Master," which was originally released as "Drunken
Master Part II."
Is your argument that, but for the plague, Spain would have remained
the foremost empire (vanquishing the Dutch the British); retained
expanded its hegemony over the so-called New World; been the first
to undergo the so-called Industrial Revolution later??? If so, I'd
recommend, for
The following report is interesting not just for the possible accuracy of
its predictions, but also, I suggest, because it is based on a NATO
debriefing against Thaci, the most prominent figurehead of the Kosovan
armed resistance to the Yugoslav federal army and the strategy of relying
on
Kostunica appears still to be playing for federal state but on a voluntary,
non-coercive basis.
Many of the 900 ethnic Albanians held in Yugoslavian prisons could be
freed under an amnesty for those accused of being involved in the Kosovo
war. New president Vojislav Kostunica is reported to
Jim D writes:
Anyway, please don't just _assert_ that capitalism needs slaves, etc.
Tell me the logic behind your argument.
There may be an ontological difference over what we mean when we say
capitalism -- is it an analytical category or an historical one. Mat,
when he says:
Enslaved
Colin wrote to Jim D.:
Jim D writes:
Anyway, please don't just _assert_ that capitalism needs slaves, etc.
Tell me the logic behind your argument.
snip
It is a serious error to reason from the structural completeness of an
abstract model of capitalism to the notion that capitalism in the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/24/00 08:41PM
CB: OK , but I don't get how this particular fact impacts the
question as to whether or not slavery should be analyzed as a
component part of capitalism in combination with wage-labor.
Indentured servitude might be analyzed as a component part of
CB: By this thesis, what explains the fact that capitalism ,
in fact, went on to establish a very big colonial system ?
Was that not a necessary development ?
Was that not the result of part of the "essence" of the novel mode ?
As you say, it "went on to"; I mean it is possible that
Hi all,
I have not been following this argument. But I can think of at least one
form of free labor that capitalism has never lived without - women's labor
in the home.
-Nico
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Colin Danby
Sent:
Wood Brenner (as well as Marx, for that matter) emphasize the
novelty of capitalism as a mode of production (in historical
materialism, analytical emphasis falls upon discontinuities, rather
than continuities; see _Grundrisse_ _Capital_ especially).
However, _none_ of them argues
Is your argument that, but for the plague, Spain would have remained
the foremost empire (vanquishing the Dutch the British); retained
expanded its hegemony over the so-called New World; been the first
to undergo the so-called Industrial Revolution later??? If so, I'd
recommend, for
Yoshie:
However, _none_ of them argues that capitalism emerged at once,
"fully fledged," like the birth of Athena from the forehead of Zeus!
The emergence of capitalist social relations was a drawn-out
_process_ (not a linear Progress), born of contingent outcomes of
class struggles in
Next in line is Perry Anderson, whom Wood thinks added little to
the debate except clarify the disctinction between "politico-legal
coercion" and "economic" exploitation, with his argument that the
Absolutist state "represented the displacement upward and the
centralization of the feudal
But why would having developed capitalism be a credit to Europe? What's so
chauvinistic about saddling Europe with
having created the most comprehensive system of exploitation and oppression
devised by human beings? Are we to credit Europe's conquered subjects with
having created capitalism?
BLS DAILY REPORT, WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 25, 2000
Thanksgiving is a 2-day holiday for the majority of workers, a Bureau of
National Affairs survey finds. Seven out of 10 responding employers have
designated both Thanksgiving Day and the following Friday as paid days off
this year, virtually
[was: Re: [PEN-L:3526] Re: 20Re: Brenner, C. L. R. Ja mes, José
Carlos Mariátegui (was Re : Brenner Redux)]
Colin wrote:
[Mat] asks us not to shut our eyes to lived history and the fact that
the actual rise of industrial capitalism is closely linked with unfree
labor. As it is with
At 11:31 AM 10/26/00 -0400, you wrote:
But why would having developed capitalism be a credit to Europe? What's so
chauvinistic about saddling Europe with
having created the most comprehensive system of exploitation and oppression
devised by human beings? Are we to credit Europe's conquered
Who are these academic Mensheviks?
Please, I don't want to get suspended from PEN-L again. I am afraid that
Michael has some kind of 3-strike rule.
Louis Proyect
Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org
1976 was the year the transition-problem found a solution with the
publication in *Past Present* of Brenner's "Agrarian Class
Structure and Economic Development" - so Wood insists.
Everyone praised this article, few understood its meaning. Critics
and sympathizers were impressed by the
These questions would have more punch if we weren't dealing with an
widespread academic Menshevik milieu which views capitalism as being a step
up in the evolutionary ladder.
Who are these academic Mensheviks?
thank god all of you swine have finally been exposed.
Benny from the Bronx
NY Times, October 26, 2000
$100 Million Voted for Serbia, but With War-Crimes Strings
By STEVEN A. HOLMES
WASHINGTON, Oct. 25 - Congress approved a $100 million aid package to
Serbia today, but made it contingent on the new Yugoslav government's
cooperation in apprehending those indicted on
Empiricism and a rigorously historical approach (as one part of an approach that
includes also theory, even theory at a very high level of abstraction) are not
the same thing! Empiricism carries with it certain specific epistemological and
ontological commitments that history need not. In fact,
Louis,
But this is what troubles me about all this: isn't the argument you are
advancing an ideological reason to be opposed to the thesis at hand rather
than a social scientific one? Are we to dismiss arguments because of the way
they are used by modernization theorists?
Andrew
Let's be very clear. I have stated previously that not only do I reject the
equating of temporal priority with "superiority" I also do not accept arguments
that capitalism was developing in other areas of the world. More importantly,
Williams-Rodney and contemporary proponents of Williams Rodney
Louis,
But this is what troubles me about all this: isn't the argument you are
advancing an ideological reason to be opposed to the thesis at hand rather
than a social scientific one? Are we to dismiss arguments because of the way
they are used by modernization theorists?
Andrew
I argue
We are now into the heart of the Brenner-Wood thesis, page 46 of
*The Origin of Capitalism*, first sentence: "In England, an
exceptionally large proportion of land was owned by landlords and
worked by tenants whose conditions of tenure increasingly took the
form of economic leases, with rents
Louis,
But this is what troubles me about all this: isn't the argument you are
advancing an ideological reason to be opposed to the thesis at hand rather
than a social scientific one? Are we to dismiss arguments because of the way
they are used by modernization theorists?
Andrew
you must be
Empiricism and a rigorously historical approach (as one part of an
approach that
includes also theory, even theory at a very high level of abstraction) are not
the same thing! Empiricism carries with it certain specific
epistemological and
ontological commitments that history need not. In fact,
It really, really helps to read Wood alongside Christopher Hill's "The World
Turned Upside Down". Problems for the landlords [and the Parish System in
general] began with the reign of Henry the VIIIth. Nor should we avoid the
fact the rise of atheism in England had a lot to do with the eroding of
Louis Proyect wrote:
These questions would have more punch if we weren't dealing with an
widespread academic Menshevik milieu which views capitalism as being a step
up in the evolutionary ladder. The reason that the Brenner thesis was so
widely accepted by such circles, and by "modernization"
BLS DAILY REPORT, TUESDAY, OCTOBER 24, 2000
Employers that sponsor health plans are expected to face the third
consecutive year of double-digit health care cost increases in 2001,
according to Hewitt Associates, which is projecting average increases of 10
percent to 13 percent, depending on plan
How is this different from working as a computer programmer at an
elite university and living in publicly subsidized housing in a posh
neighborhood in Manhattan?
Doug
There wouldn't be if I was going around telling people that capitalism
might not be so bad, after all. Or that I was
-Original Message-
From: Louis Proyect [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 12:32 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Capitalism as slavery and colonialism
I argue against the proposition that capitalism arose in England purely as
a consequence of
So far, except for a slight eruption of antagonism between Lou and Carrol, the
debate has gone remarkably well so far in terms of avoiding personal
attacks-even veiled attacks. I would not like to see this to generate too far.
Louis Proyect wrote:
These questions would have more punch if we
Rather than using dueling quotations, perhaps Louis for some of the
other heavy hitters in this debate should tell us what is so important.
To me, it sounds sort of dogmatic to rule out either the importance of
slavery or of internal social relations within Britain. Perhaps it
would be similar
I don't believe capitalism arose in England purely as a consequence of
internal factors either. But are we talking about the same thing?
Andrew Austin
Green Bay, WI
No, I think you are engaged in a debate with Jim Blaut who is not on this
list, but on the Marxism list--and who is too ill to
Michael Perelman wrote:
Rather than using dueling quotations, perhaps Louis for some of the
other heavy hitters in this debate should tell us what is so important.
It is important to link slavery with the rise of capitalism as people like
Karl Marx, Eric Williams and Robin Blackburn do. In Ellen
But the most serious long-term consequences of the plague may have
been psychological rather than economic. Already, before it was
struck by the plague, Castile was weary and depressed. The failures
in France and the Netherlands, the sack of Cadiz by the English, and
the King's request for a
Louis,
No, I think you are engaged in a debate with Jim Blaut who is not on this
list, but on the Marxism list--and who is too ill to have a debate, I may
add.
I did not know Jim was ill. However, I was responding to a comment by Yoshie
that referenced this debate. I thought Yoshie's point was
I have been staying out of this. and pretty much will, but I will remark
that you are into the heart of the history of the land law, one of the very
hardest topics in the history of law; if you are seriou about this, you must
wrap your head around something like Brian Simpson, The Land Law,
I did not know Jim was ill. However, I was responding to a comment by Yoshie
that referenced this debate. I thought Yoshie's point was an excellent one.
There is a ideological need to resist certain conclusions. I was simply
asking you if you thought this was the case.
Andrew Austin
Green Bay,
Lou, I have been criticized, and rightly so, for not having enough about
discrimination and race in my Pathology book. I don't know that that
diminishes the parts that I did discuss.
In fact, I can be criticized further concentrating on the U.S. economy, which
better than some other subjects.
The view that the emergence of capitalist social relations _cannot_
be explained by the growth of commerce trade, slavery
colonialism, and/or neo-Malthusian factors _alone_ is _not_ the same
as a "proposition that capitalism arose in England purely as a
consequence of internal factors
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/25/00 11:08PM
Say, suppose that someone makes an argument that capitalist social
relations first arose in a place called X (fill in your favorite
nation). Whether he is correct or not is an empirical question.
However, regardless of whether he is empirically correct
Why is the responsibility put on those who argue that the Enslave[ry] Industry
was a crucial part of the rise and development of capitalism as opposed to those
who want to deny this? I understand the methodological issues concerning history
being raised, but if we all agree that the only
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/26/00 08:54AM
CB: By this thesis, what explains the fact that capitalism ,
in fact, went on to establish a very big colonial system ?
Was that not a necessary development ?
Was that not the result of part of the "essence" of the novel mode ?
As you say, it "went
Mat wrote:
Let's be very clear. I have stated previously that not only do I reject the
equating of temporal priority with "superiority" I also do not accept
arguments
that capitalism was developing in other areas of the world. More importantly,
Williams-Rodney and contemporary proponents of
Ian wrote:
It really, really helps to read Wood alongside Christopher Hill's "The World
Turned Upside Down". Problems for the landlords [and the Parish System in
general] began with the reign of Henry the VIIIth. Nor should we avoid the
fact the rise of atheism in England had a lot to do with the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/25/00 04:54PM
This sounds more monetarist than Marxist. The reduction in socially necessary
labor time in gold and silver production decreased the relative price of these
precious metals to other goods--isn't that the Marxist explanation of the
inflation, not an increase
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/26/00 03:36AM
Also, there is a good reason why Marx starts _Capital_ with a
"structuralist" analysis, rather than a "historical" one. Marx wants
us to grasp the generative mechanism (the specific way in which
surplus gets extracted as surplus _value_; why the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/25/00 06:09PM
I didn't say that capitalism didn't play a crucial role at the early
stages. It's unclear -- without a lot of counter-historical speculation --
whether or not slavery was "necessary."
CB: The same is true of what happened in England. There
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/25/00 09:50PM I also agree that slavery, indentured
servitude, convict labor, women's
un-waged domestic labor, etc. have been "component parts of capitalism in
combination with wage labor." in the actual practice of capitalism. All of
these promote capitalist
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/26/00 02:33PM
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/26/00 03:12AM
I have already cited Brenner's argument that we must study the
process of class struggles class formations _in Africa_ to fully
account for the emergence of African slaves as commodities, as well
as class struggles
-Original Message-
From: Louis Proyect [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2000 2:51 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: RE: Capitalism as slavery and colonialism
"I am interested in how Marxist intellectuals can write 120 page books on
the origins of capitalism with
Lou, both seem to have been investigating the origins of capitalism, without
saying that external factors were not important. They were just exploring the
importance of one side of the equation, even saying that they gave it the
primary role; but not excluding slavery. If I read this wrong,
I wrote:
I didn't say that capitalism didn't play a crucial role at the early
stages. It's unclear -- without a lot of counter-historical speculation --
whether or not slavery was "necessary."
Charles writes:
CB: The same is true of what happened in England. There would have to be a
Charles wrote:
... briefly, the logical argument is that capitalism has always needed
non-wage labor forms simultaneous with wage-labor forms in order to keep
the wage-laborers, well, consenting, if that is ok. It needs to divide its
total body of workers, so it needs the division or
At 03:19 PM 10/26/00 -0500, you wrote:
Why is the responsibility put on those who argue that the Enslave[ry]
Industry was a crucial part of the rise and development of capitalism as
opposed to those who want to deny this?
The only person in this debate who seems to deny the crucial role of
Charles forwarded:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/10/00
09:55AM
Query: I know that Karl Marx has not discussed in great detail the
transition/evolution in economic systems from clan wealth accumulation or
other forms of primitive accumulation to capitalism. He has
acknowledged
that a division
Lou:
How is this different from working as a computer programmer at an
elite university and living in publicly subsidized housing in a posh
neighborhood in Manhattan?
Doug
There wouldn't be if I was going around telling people that capitalism
might not be so bad, after all. Or that I was
No one -- including Brenner Wood -- says that the rise of
capitalism _preceded_ colonialism and slavery -- the conquest of the
so-called New World began in 1492, and the drawn-out process of class
conflicts class formations that Wood, Brenner, etc. discuss
occurred, _not in the style of
At 09:27 PM 10/26/2000 -0400, you wrote:
Economists have termed this dilemma a 'high-level equilibrium trap'. The
inputs and outputs of the early modern agrarian system had reached a
balance that could be broken only be heavy capital investment and new
technology, and European agriculture
Jim Devine wrote:
At 09:27 PM 10/26/2000 -0400, you wrote:
[SNIP] It's only when the
"engine" of capitalist social relations was in place in the English
countryside that this fuel could power the growth of capitalism. Before
that, the fuel powered the quasi-feudal or absolutist military
Dave Mason asked me to forward the following, about the Nepalese insurgency:
This is in response to your listserve question about the maoist insurgency
in Nepal.
I spent two years as a peace corps volunteer in Pyuthan district, which
borders on the Rolpa and Rukum districts that are the center
Louis wrote:
Agrarian capitalism evolved in the 15th century. It is not industrial
capitalism but it is capitalism nonetheless.
it's important to realize that for Marx, agrarian capitalism can be
"industrial capitalism." At beginning of chapter 31 of volume I of CAPITAL,
Marx refers to the
Lou writes:
This thing called agrarian capitalism preceded industrial capitalism by
CENTURIES. It also preceded colonialism and slavery. It was a product of
the decline of feudalism in England of the late 15th century, as Brenner
himself made clear. It precedes the "discovery" of America. It
From Ellen Meiksins Wood, "The Agrarian Origins of Capitalism", Monthly
Review, July-August 1998
For millennia, human beings have provided for their material needs by
working the land. And probably for nearly as long as they have engaged in
agriculture they have been divided into classes,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/26/00 03:12AM
I have already cited Brenner's argument that we must study the
process of class struggles class formations _in Africa_ to fully
account for the emergence of African slaves as commodities, as well
as class struggles class formations _in the so-called New
Original Message
Subject: [BRC-ANN] Americans Annoyed By International News
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 05:28:40 -0400
From: Art McGee [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.satirewire.com/news/0010/international.shtml
Satire Wire
October
As late as the seventeenth century, and even much later, most of the world,
including Europe, was free of the market-driven imperatives outlined here.
A vast system of trade certainly existed, by now extending across the
globe. But nowhere, neither in the great trading centers of Europe nor in
But the most serious long-term consequences of the plague may have
been psychological rather than economic. Already, before it was
struck by the plague, Castile was weary and depressed. The failures
in France and the Netherlands, the sack of Cadiz by the English, and
the King's request for a
* ...Meanwhile, the stakes were raised by price inflation,
reflecting the higher demand attributable to a rise in the population
of about 25 percent between 1500 and 1600 and the inflow of silver
from the New World; the expansion of both reached a peak by 1600.
Thereafter, for a
Lou:
Because everybody was out in the countryside wasting time
and resources, the cities of France and Spain remained teeny-weeny. Well,
anyhow, that's the story. But perhaps there's another explanation, like a
plague that wipes out 90 percent of the population in the towns of Castile.
Is your
Ricardo wrote:
When Wood (and Brenner) tell us that capitalism is not commerce
they mean it. Capitalism did not grow naturally out of anything that
preceded it; it is so unknown in history, so novel, exceptional and
incomparable, that when it came, it did so "fully fledged". (Those
who claim
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