Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Am Sonntag, den 18.05.2014, 09:43 -0300 schrieb John Packer: > Honest question: are there capitals for something besides countries and > states? > There are capitals identical with states. E.g. Hamburg, Germany. Also Berlin, Bremen. At the same time Berlin is, of course, the capital of Germany.

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

2014-05-18 15:13 GMT+02:00 Fernando Trebien : > However, its most used value (capital=8) > makes little sense (that represents the capital of an admin_level=8 > area, which would be the capital of a city!; I think those mappers > meant "this capital is a city" :P). > I don't see capital=8 as mis

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

2014-05-18 14:43 GMT+02:00 John Packer : > Honest question: are there capitals for something besides countries and > states? Not sure what qualifies as a capital, but in Italy for instance there is no such thing like a "state". There are "regions" (Regione, admin_level 4) and provinces (Provin

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Am 5/19/14 02:27 , schrieb Fernando Trebien: Oberallgäu is currently mapped as a political (not an administrative) boundary, so Sonthofen would be neither a capital, nor an administrative center of any relation. Correctly, its node has no capital=* or admin_level=* tags. http://www.openstreetma

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

On May 18, 2014, at 4:28 PM, Andreas Goss wrote: > Am 5/18/14 14:43 , schrieb John Packer: >> Honest question: are there capitals for something besides countries and >> states? >> >> If not, we could keep it simple: >> * capital=yes for country capitals >> * state_capital=yes for state capitals (

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Correction: renderers would not be interested in knowing what Rome is a capital of to render an icon and a label for it, but only what kind of capital it is (country capital, state capital, province capital, etc.). On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 9:46 PM, Fernando Trebien wrote: > These could be tagged a

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

These could be tagged as follows: - Italy's admin. boundary relation: admin_level=2 - Rome's node: capital=2 - Lazio's admin. boundary relation: admin_level=4 - Province of Rome's admin. boundary relation: admin_level=6 - City of Rome's admin. boundary relation: admin_level=8 And: - Abruzzo's admi

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Oberallgäu is currently mapped as a political (not an administrative) boundary, so Sonthofen would be neither a capital, nor an administrative center of any relation. Correctly, its node has no capital=* or admin_level=* tags. Swabia, on the other hand, has its government seat in Augsburg, and its

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Sunday, May 18, 2014 2:43 PM John Pakker wrote: >Honest question: are there capitals for something besides countries and states? Italy has both regions and provinces. For example: - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abruzzo (Region) Capital: L'Aquila - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Chiet

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Am 5/18/14 14:43 , schrieb John Packer: Honest question: are there capitals for something besides countries and states? If not, we could keep it simple: * capital=yes for country capitals * state_capital=yes for state capitals (already in use in some parts of America

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Following from TagInfo's link, if we adopt the most used practice as de facto, that would be capital=[lowest admin_level of respective regions], by a large margin. However, its most used value (capital=8) makes little sense (that represents the capital of an admin_level=8 area, which would be the c

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Honest question: are there capitals for something besides countries and states? If not, we could keep it simple: * capital=yes for country capitals * state_capital=yes for state capitals (already in use in some parts of America ). PS: Tagin

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

2014-05-16 12:00 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss : > For what apart from Rendering will this "importance" be usefull? > > And I still think it would be missleading and will lead to confusion. > Someone who wants to look up all state capitals might just check all nodes > for capital=4 (because it's the logi

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Am 5/16/14 11:32 , schrieb Georg Feddern: The information at the node itself will be only an information about importance in the end - not to say as renderer hint. And for this case a "value is less or equal" will be sufficient. For what apart from Rendering will this "importance" be usefull?

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Am 15.05.2014 19:15, schrieb Andreas Goss: I'd see it like this: capital=2 this place is the capital of a country capital=4 this place is the capital of a region (etc.) i.e. you can see the administrative importance, but there is no notion of which entity the place is the capital. capi

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

> > So I say let's ban capital=* and admin_level=* on the place nodes! > We started this discussion because a user pointed out that it can be incredibly inefficient for a renderer to find out using only relations if a place node is a capital or not. Furthermore, we cannot ban the key capital=* fro

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Colin Smale wrote: > It is not actually an attribute of the place at all, because if you > moved the place to e.g. the middle of the Atlantic Ocean it would no longer > be a capital. It is an attribute of the relationship between the place and > an (administrative)

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Tagging capital=* or admin_level=* on a place is IMHO not to be done lightly. It is not actually an attribute of the place at all, because if you moved the place to e.g. the middle of the Atlantic Ocean it would no longer be a capital. It is an attribute of the relationship between the place and

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Am 15.05.2014 18:32, schrieb Andreas Goss: > Am 5/15/14 16:30 , schrieb fly: >> Regarding the original discussion I am in favour of using >> capital=[2-10]* if an additional tag is needed. I meant additional to the roles for the boundary relation above (cutted). admin_centre for 1 or more nodes c

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

I'd see it like this: capital=2 this place is the capital of a country capital=4 this place is the capital of a region (etc.) i.e. you can see the administrative importance, but there is no notion of which entity the place is the capital. capital=2;4 doesn't make much sense then. You a

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

2014-05-15 18:52 GMT+02:00 John Packer : > Wait a minute. > As far as I understood, the key capital=* isn't supposed to simply > substitute admin_level. > capital=2 means this city (which the node represents) is the capital city > of this country (which has admin_level=2). > capital=4 means this c

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Wait a minute. As far as I understood, the key capital=* isn't supposed to simply substitute admin_level. capital=2 means this city (which the node represents) is the capital city of this country (which has admin_level=2). capital=4 means this city (which the node represents) is the capital city of

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

2014-05-15 18:32 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss : > The semicolon (;) is >> defined as value separator so we could have capital=4;6;8 or similar. >> > > This just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I also don't see why > it would be needed. > > You are doubling the risk of errors when it comes to a

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Am 5/15/14 16:30 , schrieb fly: Regarding the original discussion I am in favour of using capital=[2-10]* if an additional tag is needed. The semicolon (;) is defined as value separator so we could have capital=4;6;8 or similar. This just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I also don't s

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

2014-05-15 15:12 GMT+02:00 Richard Welty : > > We could create an additional role (e.g. "capital") when the > > "admin_centre" is not the capital (and only in this case to avoid > > unnecessary duplicates). > some definitions to keep in mind: > > capital - a city serving as a seat of government >

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

On 15/05/2014 13:23, Matthijs Melissen wrote: - The administrative centre of a region might be licated outside the region in administers. For example, the city of Częstochowa is the administrative centre of Częstochowa county, but the city is not part of the county (the county forms a ring a

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Am 15.05.2014 14:57, schrieb Pieren: > On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Matthijs Melissen > wrote: > >> Some more strange cases: > > We could create an additional role (e.g. "capital") when the > "admin_centre" is not the capital (and only in this case to avoid > unnecessary duplicates). So far

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

On 5/15/14 8:57 AM, Pieren wrote: > On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Matthijs Melissen > wrote: > >> Some more strange cases: > We could create an additional role (e.g. "capital") when the > "admin_centre" is not the capital (and only in this case to avoid > unnecessary duplicates). some definitio

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Matthijs Melissen wrote: > Some more strange cases: We could create an additional role (e.g. "capital") when the "admin_centre" is not the capital (and only in this case to avoid unnecessary duplicates). Pieren ___ Ta

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Sorry, I meant the adminstrative centre of the state's capital city "It is currently used in states to indicate where to place the node of the state name, because the administrative centre of a state tends to be the same as *the state's *capital city administrative centre." 2014-05-15 9:23 GMT-03

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

> It is currently used in states to indicate where to place the node of the state name, because the administrative centre of a state tends to be the same as it's capital city administrative centre. > (example of the label role: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/539668890) Not necessarily though.

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

> > (because of current mapnik rules capital=yes should be preferred over > capital=2, as the style sheet only takes account of capital=yes or not yes: > *https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/project.mml >

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Interesting. So it is in fact a rendered-related issue. Since you've pointed out exactly where the problem is in the code, wouldn't it be better to just submit a fix and standardize the mapping practice on capital=[lowest admin_level of related boundary relations]? AFAIK this should only affect ren

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

2014-05-15 13:09 GMT+02:00 Pieren : > Why not. But the definition shall be clear : it's only the > administrative(s) centre(s) "place(s)" to be linked. The risk if we > don't specify a limit is that contributors will use it to link "all" > places within the boundary (making a substitute of the inf

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > btw.: The current definition for administrative relations says that > admin_centre should be used one or no time in the relation, but what if > there is more than one admin_centre, e.g. entities where the administration > is split ove

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

2014-05-15 2:51 GMT+02:00 Fernando Trebien : > And some of these relations (though far from the top of the list) are > not assigned an admin_centre role, even though the node exists. > btw.: The current definition for administrative relations says that admin_centre should be used one or no time

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 8:52 PM, Andreas Goss wrote: > Exacly, so why tag the level number on the node when we have relations and > can incude the capitals as role:admin_centre? And then there are no > exceptions. Which is how it is usually done here in Germany. I've checked the first 15 cities i

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Am 5/15/14 01:10 , schrieb Fernando Trebien: Brasília is the only exception which is a capital of two different administrative levels. And both the relations for the federal district [1] and the country [2] correctly express that idea. As long as you only look at admin_level=2 and =4 But even s

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Brasília is the only exception which is a capital of two different administrative levels. And both the relations for the federal district [1] and the country [2] correctly express that idea. I know it's not a rule that applies to every country, and precisely because of that it would make even more

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Am 5/14/14 23:29 , schrieb Fernando Trebien: Any place=city/town/village with admin_level=4 is a state capital (at least in Brazil). What about your capital? According to Wikkipedia that's a capital of the Federal District, too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bras%C3%ADlia __ openstre

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Following from Aleksandr Dezhin's "Why not use admin_level=* without capital=yes?" in that wiki talk page, why not? Any place=city/town with admin_level=2 is a country capital. Any place=city/town/village with admin_level=4 is a state capital (at least in Brazil). This would remove the need for a c

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

"... Czech Republic taginfo=capital" what do you mean? Ooops. Must have deleted a line there. Bascally they are not using capital= at all apart for some exceptions as you can also see on taginfo. We should probaby vote on this proposal now and make this the default practice. This makes admin

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

"... Czech Republic taginfo=capital" what do you mean? So it seems that, except for Russia, the most common practice is as described in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/capital#Notes_on_actual_usage . We should probaby vote on this proposal now and make this the default practi

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Am 5/14/14 17:06 , schrieb Fernando Trebien: Interesting. So how is capital=* being used in Europe? Just running the overpass API with capital* over some countries: Spain: Using capital=8 extensivly (!!!) together with admin_level=8 not really using 4 or 6 though. France, Italy have some ca

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Interesting. So how is capital=* being used in Europe? On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 2:27 AM, Andreas Goss wrote: > Am 5/13/14 17:40 , schrieb Fernando Trebien: > >> So if you know how it's being done >> in yours, or if you can try figuring it out, please take a minute to >> describe it here briefly. >

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Am 5/13/14 17:40 , schrieb Fernando Trebien: So if you know how it's being done in yours, or if you can try figuring it out, please take a minute to describe it here briefly. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/state_capital#map Pretty much answers that for state_capital=. Outside North & So

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

More information: All 48 nodes with capital=10 have admin_level=10 19 nodes out of 122 with capital=7 also have admin_level=7 21 nodes out of 331 with capital=6 also have admin_level=6 (this one came from that Spain import) 94 nodes out of 427 with capital=4 also have admin_level=4 182 nodes out

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

"None of them have admin_level=* tags." should have been "None of them have admin_level=* tags on the nodes, only in relations." On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 12:40 PM, Fernando Trebien wrote: > Following from the previous discussion > (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-May/017515.

Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Hi Trebien, I investigated a little about the capital=8 tag (which is 84.67% of it's 9 989 values), and it seems it's being used differently than what we thought initially. Most of these cases have something like admin_level=8 + capital=8. I don't have the time right now to investigate it fully,

[Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?

Following from the previous discussion (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-May/017515.html), it seems clear we would all like to know how these tags are being employed in each other's country. So if you know how it's being done in yours, or if you can try figuring it out, please